Author Topic: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!  (Read 25204 times)

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Online coppice

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #200 on: November 09, 2022, 03:44:32 pm »
Looking at a typical 8k TV review/recommendation website, such as here:

https://parker-marker.com/blogs/electronics/television-review/is-an-8k-tv-worth-it-heres-our-expert-answer/

They seem to be around 65" to 85" (inches).  At 85", there begins to be a significant argument, that the extra pixel density, is needed, to stop the screen appearing pixelated and/or worse due to lack of pixels.  Depending on viewing distances and quality of TV picture, the buyers are looking for.

So, on the one hand it makes me understand the need for 8k TVs, if people are going to buy TVs that size.  But also makes me think the EU, maybe has a point with the legislation, because as TVs become so big, and less efficient (because of going to 8k).  The electricity consumed, is going to be a lot more significant.  I.e. considerably more power will be used, compared to a much more modestly sized TV, of around 4k.

But how many people are even going to want to have a TV that large? That's rare even here in the USA where everything is already generally bigger than in Europe. I can't help but think this legislation is pointless.
In the UK the shops don't display a lot of 85" TVs, but 5 years ago they didn't display a huge number of 75" TVs, and now the shops are full of them. Screen sizes keep creeping up. There comes a limit at some point. We tried our 75" TV in the dining room, and it looked overbearing. In the lounge it doesn't look that big, and we would probably go for something bigger as its eventual replacement.
 
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Online themadhippy

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #201 on: November 09, 2022, 05:05:45 pm »
Quote
Screen sizes keep creeping up.
don't seem that long ago that a 26"  colour  tv was the ultimate ,if it had teletext you were doing very well
 
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Offline Pinkus

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #202 on: November 09, 2022, 05:16:34 pm »
Now that TVs have gotten so big, I'm sure there will soon be cheaper Netflix or Amazon Prime access programs: Then you'll only have a 45" picture in the middle of your 90" screen and flashing ads all around ;-)
It certainly won't be long now. Reminds me of the early days of the Internet.

Unfortunately, the video Idiocracy (from 2006), where this screenshot was made of, is becoming true more and more.
 
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Offline KaneTW

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #203 on: November 09, 2022, 06:09:04 pm »
For the speakers, just get pro speakers and a pro audio interface. I use Yamaha HS7s and an Audient id44 and it works reliably.

But that's ~~$1200 worth of gear, that's well beyond what most people are going to want to spend on that sort of thing, I'm pretty sure that's more than I've spent collectively on audio equipment throughout my entire life.

~200 x2 for the speakers and ~200 for the audio interface (I typo'd, meant the id14 -- and there's other variants out there anyway) isn't that expensive. Not a low amount but you also get good quality.
 
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Offline Miyuki

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #204 on: November 09, 2022, 06:28:34 pm »
Quote
Screen sizes keep creeping up.
don't seem that long ago that a 26"  colour  tv was the ultimate ,if it had teletext you were doing very well
Oh, that good old times
No, I'm not that old. But my uncle used to have a similar living room.
But it was so practical for us hoarders to have cabinets everywhere
 

Online coppice

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #205 on: November 09, 2022, 06:30:33 pm »
Oh, that good old times
No, I'm not that old. But my uncle used to have a similar living room.
But it was so practical for us hoarders to have cabinets everywhere

The TV makers used to love setups like that. The TV's ventilation was so poor, and its power consumption so high, they could sell a regular stream of replacement sets.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #206 on: November 09, 2022, 09:29:52 pm »
I thought in the US, Home Cinema Rooms (Boys Sheds/theater rooms/home theaters), were a thing.  Where they would have significantly big TVs in such rooms.  But I'm NOT sure what the sizes of those TVs, would actually be.

But me thinking that, is much more based on watching US based, Movies/YouTube-Videos and so on, rather than my real-life experiences.  I.e. It wouldn't be the first time, I got things completely wrong about America.  Because I tend to base such knowledge, too much on Movies or Videos I've seen, and perhaps jumped to, too many (possibly incorrect) conclusions.


Actual home theaters are something the 1% have. I’m American and I’ve never even seen an actual home theater outside of the showroom of the home theater electronics dealer I bought my speakers from (back when Bowers and Wilkins was still a fairly small boutique brand, made in England, and thus not carried at mainstream stores).

It’s not uncommon to have a “home theater” AV system in your living room (i.e. some kind of surround sound system to go with your TV), but actual dedicated home theaters (in the sense of a dedicated room with projector and cinema seating) are quite rare, given that such a thing costs tens of thousands of dollars, not including real estate, and can easily go into the 6 digits. Most Americans simply can’t afford that.

As for size, the largest TVs (75”+) are encroaching on the low end of the sizes where projectors have normally been used. But hardcore home theaters use expensive projectors ($20K-100K) onto the same perforated screens used in actual cinemas, which have the center speakers behind the screen rather than near it. The technology to use flat panel displays as center speakers is still in its infancy. (I know Sony did it with some OLED models, but I don’t think it’s been done with LCD, nor can I imagine how one would do it.)
« Last Edit: November 09, 2022, 09:34:01 pm by tooki »
 
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Online MK14

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #207 on: November 09, 2022, 09:41:43 pm »
Actual home theaters are something the 1% have. I’m American and I’ve never even seen an actual home theater outside of the showroom of the home theater electronics dealer I bought my speakers from (back when Bowers and Wilkins was still a fairly small boutique brand, made in England, and thus not carried at mainstream stores).

It’s not uncommon to have a “home theater” AV system in your living room (i.e. some kind of surround sound system to go with your TV), but actual dedicated home theaters (in the sense of a dedicated room with projector and cinema seating) are quite rare, given that such a thing costs tens of thousands of dollars, not including real estate, and can easily go into the 6 digits. Most Americans simply can’t afford that.

Thanks!.  I see.
I suspect (currently) sales of 8k TVs themselves, are the top (something) percentage of the population (I'm not sure what percentage that would actually be though).

Because even if someone, who is not in the top percent wanted one, they are probably still too expensive to get, for many people.

They (8k TVs) seem to be priced (brand new), (only did a VERY quick check on prices), in the £1,800 to £4,400, according to googles, initial response page.

Even so.  Just because only the top 1% (or whatever the true figure is), want and/or can afford something.  Shouldn't mean the EU brings in new laws, which hurt only some segments of the public.

I suspect, I learnt about those home theaters, on YouTube.  Which didn't put into perspective, how few people in America and probably most/all other countries, actually have them.
 

Offline KaneTW

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #208 on: November 09, 2022, 10:33:49 pm »


No, it's just a question of priorities. A friend who is definitely not the 1% has a home theatre in his house. Anyone that's upper middle class can afford it, and from there it's a question of "do I want it?"
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #209 on: November 09, 2022, 11:14:36 pm »
No, it's just a question of priorities. A friend who is definitely not the 1% has a home theatre in his house. Anyone that's upper middle class can afford it, and from there it's a question of "do I want it?"

Likewise I knew a middle class guy that had a Ferrari, I'd guess that home theaters are about as common as those, and the demographic breakdown between them is probably similar.
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #210 on: November 09, 2022, 11:22:21 pm »


No, it's just a question of priorities. A friend who is definitely not the 1% has a home theatre in his house. Anyone that's upper middle class can afford it, and from there it's a question of "do I want it?"
Come on, duuuuude… I am talking about whether such things* are commonplace (they’re not), not whether cases of non-rich people with some sort of home theater exist.

And to reiterate: by “actual home theater” I mean a high-end, dedicated room with cinema-like construction, seating, etc. and equipment that significantly reproduces a cinema experience. Not just a regular room with a big screen and some speakers, in front of a sofa.

And of course, it’s not “just” a matter of priorities: most Americans simply don’t earn anywhere close to enough money to afford such a luxury. The median household income in USA is about $71K. In many parts of the country, you’d pay 10% of that just on the annual rent for the space to house the home theater!

Then remember that half of households make less than that — in many, many cases significantly less — which certainty doesn’t leave any way to spend tens of thousands on a home theater.

*with the photo as a reference, which I’d guess at being a ~$20-40K home theater, including construction costs to raise the floor, install the built-in cabinetry, etc, plus seating, sound panels, and the AV gear.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #211 on: November 09, 2022, 11:47:38 pm »
I suspect (currently) sales of 8k TVs themselves, are the top (something) percentage of the population (I'm not sure what percentage that would actually be though).



They (8k TVs) seem to be priced (brand new), (only did a VERY quick check on prices), in the £1,800 to £4,400, according to googles, initial response page.
Frankly, I don’t see the point in 8K. At a comfortable viewing distance (i.e. one where the screen comfortably fits within, but nearly fills, your field of view), your eyes plain and simply cannot resolve a single 4K pixel, never mind at 8K. We don’t have enough angular resolution to do so. This page explains the problem nicely. To tell apart two pixels on an 82” 8K display, you’d have to be sitting just 28” from the screen, just a bit more than arm’s length! I can’t even sit that close to my 42” TV for very long. 8K really only makes sense when you want to come close and inspect some part of the screen. Perfect human vision simply doesn’t have enough resolution to make use of it from afar. When you consider that a typical TV is somewhere on the order of 10 feet (120 inches) from the viewer, it becomes clear that 8k is laughably unnecessary even on an 85” TV or 120” projection screen.

Heck, even digital cinemas, actual movie theaters people pay money to go see movies at, are mostly just 2K! (Few cinemas are jumping at the chance to replace a $60,000 projector they bought just a few years ago, so we are likely stuck with lots of 2K cinemas for a while.) If 4K isn’t even essential for a literal cinema with a 65 foot screen, then 8K certainly isn’t even distantly needed for a 65 inch TV!!
 
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Online MK14

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #212 on: November 10, 2022, 12:13:16 am »
Frankly, I don’t see the point in 8K. At a comfortable viewing distance (i.e. one where the screen comfortably fits within, but nearly fills, your field of view), your eyes plain and simply cannot resolve a single 4K pixel, never mind at 8K. We don’t have enough angular resolution to do so. This page explains the problem nicely. To tell apart two pixels on an 82” 8K display, you’d have to be sitting just 28” from the screen, just a bit more than arm’s length! I can’t even sit that close to my 42” TV for very long. 8K really only makes sense when you want to come close and inspect some part of the screen. Perfect human vision simply doesn’t have enough resolution to make use of it from afar. When you consider that a typical TV is somewhere on the order of 10 feet (120 inches) from the viewer, it becomes clear that 8k is laughably unnecessary even on an 85” TV or 120” projection screen.

Heck, even digital cinemas, actual movie theaters people pay money to go see movies at, are mostly just 2K! (Few cinemas are jumping at the chance to replace a $60,000 projector they bought just a few years ago, so we are likely stuck with lots of 2K cinemas for a while.) If 4K isn’t even essential for a literal cinema with a 65 foot screen, then 8K certainly isn’t even distantly needed for a 65 inch TV!!

That is a good question, and to do it justice, I'd hope that reliable/honest people (scientists perhaps), can perform experiments, theoretical analysis, and then answer such questions for us.  Ideally taking into account Psychological effects, such as Placebo ones.
I.e. (Psychological/Placebo), a Million dollar Ultra-Delux-Platinum-King-View TV, with a billion superBright-Mega-pixels, would be perceived by some/many, as having a better quality image, than a $199, 1080P, Foreign Unknown branded, Cheapo-matic TV.  Even if the actual real life picture quality, was identical between them (i.e. a Placebo or psychological like effect).

I don't think I've yet to see an 8k TV in real life, that I've noticed (but could have walked passed one in a shop, without realizing it).

Actually, it's usually OLED TVs, which seem (for me, at least) to have amazing picture quality, and nice and bright, too.  From what I've seen.  It is just I'm too worried about picture burn in issues.  Which were very likely to have been 4k TVs.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #213 on: November 10, 2022, 12:27:15 am »
Actually, it's usually OLED TVs, which seem (for me, at least) to have amazing picture quality, and nice and bright, too.  From what I've seen.  It is just I'm too worried about picture burn in issues.  Which were very likely to have been 4k TVs.

I'm not too worried about burn in, I think OLED is similar to CRT based rear projection in that matter and I used one of those for years without getting burn. That said, I don't watch TV in a traditional sense, I'm 100% streaming. Commercial TV all has those stupid logos that sit in the corner all the time and those can burn in.
 
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Offline PlainName

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #214 on: November 10, 2022, 12:30:33 am »
Quote
To tell apart two pixels on an 82” 8K display, you’d have to be sitting just 28” from the screen, just a bit more than arm’s length! I can’t even sit that close to my 42” TV for very long.

I sit 2" more than arm's length from a 43" 4K screen. I can just about make out the pixels. My partner sits a bit closer (arm's length) to a 32" 4K screen without issue, but for me to use that I have to have Windows in 115% mode. So that's a long way of saying she could see the pixels on my screen. And having used it for some time I could go with a bigger screen with more resolution, sitting the same distance away.

Could my eyes see the individual pixels off to the side of such a screen? Of course not! But that's why my head and eyes can swivel (often independently). If I looked at that part of the screen then there would be no issue and all pixels could be noticed.

The only thing (apart from cost, availability and the ability to drive it) that would prevent me getting such a huge screen would be the flatness of it. It would need to be a curved one, I think. Gosh, it was only yesterday (really) that I was thinking how I could fit two 43" 4K screens in front of me without there being a double-bezel in the middle. An 80" 8K screen would do that nicely.
 
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Online vk6zgo

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #215 on: November 10, 2022, 01:08:14 am »
Let’s ban the EUrobollocks from interfering in our UK lives. They’re a joke. The only brussels I want are the yummy green ones. 😋😋
I thought you had already done that.-----How did it turn out? ;D
 

Online MK14

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #216 on: November 10, 2022, 01:08:35 am »
I'm not too worried about burn in, I think OLED is similar to CRT based rear projection in that matter and I used one of those for years without getting burn. That said, I don't watch TV in a traditional sense, I'm 100% streaming. Commercial TV all has those stupid logos that sit in the corner all the time and those can burn in.

I guess different people, react to the possibility of OLED burn in, in different ways.  There are many different usage scenarios, for TVs as well.  E.g. Some people game on them (bigger risk of burn in), while others only watch movies on them.

Peoples stories (on the internet), seem to vary a lot.  There seem to be some, who get plagued by huge problems, with OLED screen burn.  While there are many others, who love their OLED TVs, and don't understand why so many others, seem to have had so much trouble, with their OLED TVs.

The situation, is almost like a big conspiracy theory story.  OLED screen burn vs OLEDs never screen burn, sections of society.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #217 on: November 10, 2022, 01:53:43 am »
Quote
To tell apart two pixels on an 82” 8K display, you’d have to be sitting just 28” from the screen, just a bit more than arm’s length! I can’t even sit that close to my 42” TV for very long.

I sit 2" more than arm's length from a 43" 4K screen. I can just about make out the pixels. My partner sits a bit closer (arm's length) to a 32" 4K screen without issue, but for me to use that I have to have Windows in 115% mode. So that's a long way of saying she could see the pixels on my screen. And having used it for some time I could go with a bigger screen with more resolution, sitting the same distance away.

Could my eyes see the individual pixels off to the side of such a screen? Of course not! But that's why my head and eyes can swivel (often independently). If I looked at that part of the screen then there would be no issue and all pixels could be noticed.

The only thing (apart from cost, availability and the ability to drive it) that would prevent me getting such a huge screen would be the flatness of it. It would need to be a curved one, I think. Gosh, it was only yesterday (really) that I was thinking how I could fit two 43" 4K screens in front of me without there being a double-bezel in the middle. An 80" 8K screen would do that nicely.
You’re talking about computer displays. Everyone else is talking about TVs. Same technology, different purpose and constraints, because with computer displays, we can sit close and look at an area of interest; with TVs, we need the entire screen to be in our field of vision the whole time.

At work, I have two 27” 4K displays, run with Windows at 150%. All but one program works perfectly with that scaling (and the singular exception works around 95% correctly, just with a few — luckily not particularly important — parts a bit small). I certainly can’t make out a single pixel on those at arm’s length. On a 43” I’m sure I could.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #218 on: November 10, 2022, 02:38:23 am »
Peoples stories (on the internet), seem to vary a lot.  There seem to be some, who get plagued by huge problems, with OLED screen burn.  While there are many others, who love their OLED TVs, and don't understand why so many others, seem to have had so much trouble, with their OLED TVs.

The situation, is almost like a big conspiracy theory story.  OLED screen burn vs OLEDs never screen burn, sections of society.

Part of it might be the same as was true with CRT projection and plasma, out of the box the brightness and contrast is usually cranked way up. If you dial it in to something sensible it will greatly increase the life of the display.
 
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Online NiHaoMike

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #219 on: November 10, 2022, 02:40:02 am »
I guess different people, react to the possibility of OLED burn in, in different ways.  There are many different usage scenarios, for TVs as well.  E.g. Some people game on them (bigger risk of burn in), while others only watch movies on them.
I think competitive gamers consider OLED/QLED screens a consumable item. If it burns in, they use it as an excuse to upgrade to a newer one.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 
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Online MK14

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #220 on: November 10, 2022, 02:46:42 am »
Part of it might be the same as was true with CRT projection and plasma, out of the box the brightness and contrast is usually cranked way up. If you dial it in to something sensible it will greatly increase the life of the display.

That's a good point.  When watching expert opinion, as to how to use/treat an OLED TV.  They do talk about that.  It goes something on the lines of that it is the sheer excessive temperature of the OLEDs, on parts of the picture which have a combination, of excessive brightness (hence temperature rises up), and a picture which keeps them continuous on for long enough (something like 5 seconds or so).
Then the (relatively) excessive temperature, 'burns' the OLEDs, at that position.
So, by merely turning the brightness down to more sensible/relaxed levels.  The excessive temperatures, don't occur, and hence neither does the OLED screen burns.

I can't remember the recommended percentage.  But the advice, seems to boil down to keep the brightness level, no more than 45% (N.B. I DON'T KNOW what the percentage should be.  If you need  to know, then feel free to find out, from a proper source) of full-brightness (or some magic level), to minimize the risk of screen burns.
But, also might need a number of other rules, to keep the screen safe/safer from getting screen burns.
 

Online MK14

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #221 on: November 10, 2022, 02:53:00 am »
I guess different people, react to the possibility of OLED burn in, in different ways.  There are many different usage scenarios, for TVs as well.  E.g. Some people game on them (bigger risk of burn in), while others only watch movies on them.
I think competitive gamers consider OLED/QLED screens a consumable item. If it burns in, they use it as an excuse to upgrade to a newer one.

Thanks.  That makes sense.
The potentially extremely rapid response times of OLED TVs (no slowdown effect, like with LCDs, which tend to introduce delays).  Would be very attractive to gamers, if they play competative multi-player games.  As the response times (at least in their opinions, but probably in real-life as well), can be extremely critical, to doing well at it.
Opinions vary though, as to how importortant refresh-rates/response-times, really are.

Linus Tech Tips, have done quite a good video, illustrating, why faster monitors, are useful in competative gaming.

They have done at least two videos on it.  I'm not sure if the following one, is the best one, of theirs.  Also, there may be other videos on this subject area, which could be better.

« Last Edit: November 10, 2022, 02:57:09 am by MK14 »
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #222 on: November 10, 2022, 11:54:33 am »
Quote
You’re talking about computer displays.

Yes, and considering the similar effect to being in a cinema. TVs currently don't take up all your vision whereas a decent cinema experience can very nearly do so. A huge screen reasonably close, as opposed to an humungous one a bit further away.

Quote
At work, I have two 27” 4K displays, run with Windows at 150%

How is that much different? Instead of ramping up to 150% you could've just got a lower resolutions screen at the same size.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2022, 11:56:52 am by PlainName »
 

Online Zero999

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #223 on: November 10, 2022, 12:04:02 pm »
Quote
At work, I have two 27” 4K displays, run with Windows at 150%
How is that much different? Instead of ramping up to 150% you could've just got a lower resolutions screen at the same size.
No, because setting to 150% doesn't scale everything up, making it more pixelated. It simply draws everything bigger. Vector based UI elements such as text and buttons still have more pixels on high resolution screen, compared to a low resolution screen, when drawn to the same size.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #224 on: November 10, 2022, 12:19:30 pm »
So if there was 8K input it would look better than upscaled input despite you not being able to see the individual pixels?
 


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