Author Topic: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!  (Read 25199 times)

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Offline tom66

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #225 on: November 10, 2022, 02:39:24 pm »
Frankly, I don’t see the point in 8K. At a comfortable viewing distance (i.e. one where the screen comfortably fits within, but nearly fills, your field of view), your eyes plain and simply cannot resolve a single 4K pixel, never mind at 8K. We don’t have enough angular resolution to do so. This page explains the problem nicely. To tell apart two pixels on an 82” 8K display, you’d have to be sitting just 28” from the screen, just a bit more than arm’s length! I can’t even sit that close to my 42” TV for very long. 8K really only makes sense when you want to come close and inspect some part of the screen. Perfect human vision simply doesn’t have enough resolution to make use of it from afar. When you consider that a typical TV is somewhere on the order of 10 feet (120 inches) from the viewer, it becomes clear that 8k is laughably unnecessary even on an 85” TV or 120” projection screen.

A debate along these lines was had with people arguing that 5K+ monitors make sense.  I said it is only the case if on a current monitor this checkerboard pattern:
https://www.shadertoy.com/view/WdXyz4

is visible as a discrete array of pixels, rather than a solid grey colour.

For me, 1080p was clearly discernable, but at 2' viewing distance it's a solid colour on my 4K monitor.  So the real world upper limit is probably somewhere around 3K for my setup.  I don't have an unusual setup and I have normal vision (20/20) without correction.

I still stand by this, though others seem convinced that additional pixels beyond the eye's effective resolution carry a benefit.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2022, 03:00:44 pm by tom66 »
 

Online Zero999

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #226 on: November 10, 2022, 05:26:46 pm »
So if there was 8K input it would look better than upscaled input despite you not being able to see the individual pixels?
Setting the scaling on software simply draws the interface larger, to compensate for the higher resolution. Suppose the dimensions of a character such as the letter o is 10 pixels by 10 at 100%. If the scaling is set to 150%, then it will draw the letter o at 15 by 15 pixels.
 
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Offline PlainName

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #227 on: November 10, 2022, 05:27:39 pm »
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is visible as a discrete array of pixels, rather than a solid grey colour.

I see an array of discreet pixels on my 4K. Viewing distance is 32".
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #228 on: November 10, 2022, 05:30:55 pm »
So if there was 8K input it would look better than upscaled input despite you not being able to see the individual pixels?
Setting the scaling on software simply draws the interface larger, to compensate for the higher resolution. Suppose the dimensions of a character such as the letter o is 10 pixels by 10 at 100%. If the scaling is set to 150%, then it will draw the letter o at 15 by 15 pixels.

Isn't that what stuff like Cleartype is all about? They draw at the 15x15 virtual scale and map that to the 10x10 actual pixels.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #229 on: November 10, 2022, 05:34:18 pm »
Isn't that what stuff like Cleartype is all about? They draw at the 15x15 virtual scale and map that to the 10x10 actual pixels.

My recollection was that Cleartype used subpixels, I never cared enough to look into the details though.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #230 on: November 10, 2022, 05:39:26 pm »
Isn't that what stuff like Cleartype is all about? They draw at the 15x15 virtual scale and map that to the 10x10 actual pixels.

My recollection was that Cleartype used subpixels, I never cared enough to look into the details though.

My main experience of it is to turn it off, but I think - simplistically - it works out where a line should go and then, if it's between pixels, it 'adjusts' them so the line kind of seems to go where it should.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #231 on: November 10, 2022, 05:46:12 pm »
ClearType's intelligence is treating the subpixels of a pixel as usable for improving font clarity.  This is because the human eye has poor chrominance resolution compared to its luminance resolution, so the colour variation at the edges of the character will generally not be distinguishable - of course, this depends on the display resolution, your eyesight and how far away you are from the monitor.  It also only works on monitors with regular grids of subpixels, like LCDs, and those with square pixels.  For CRTs with dot arrays, it doesn't work, and for some newer OLED displays as featured on some laptops now, it definitely doesn't work, because there's often not a 1:1 relation between the subpixels and the pixels any more (quite often 1 green pixel per 1 real pixel but alternating red and blue shared with adjacent pixels.)

I quite like it on 1080p monitors and below.  For a 4K monitor the resolution is already high enough that it has no particular benefit, but it also doesn't really harm anything, so I've never bothered to turn it off.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subpixel_rendering
 
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Online Zero999

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #232 on: November 10, 2022, 06:22:42 pm »
So if there was 8K input it would look better than upscaled input despite you not being able to see the individual pixels?
Setting the scaling on software simply draws the interface larger, to compensate for the higher resolution. Suppose the dimensions of a character such as the letter o is 10 pixels by 10 at 100%. If the scaling is set to 150%, then it will draw the letter o at 15 by 15 pixels.

Isn't that what stuff like Cleartype is all about? They draw at the 15x15 virtual scale and map that to the 10x10 actual pixels.
It's got nothing to do with Cleartype. If you've got two screens, one with a higher resolution than another and draw the graphics on the higher resolution screen with proportionally more pixels larger, they will both be the same size, but the higher resolution monitor will look shaper.
 
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Offline PlainName

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #233 on: November 10, 2022, 06:30:26 pm »
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but the higher resolution monitor will look shaper

Even though you can't distinguish between pixels?
 

Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #234 on: November 10, 2022, 06:53:32 pm »
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At work, I have two 27” 4K displays, run with Windows at 150%

How is that much different? Instead of ramping up to 150% you could've just got a lower resolutions screen at the same size.
It’s the same “real estate” as a 2560x1440 display, but everything is rendered with 2.25x as many pixels. It’s a dramatic improvement in sharpness of both text and graphics. Altium looks glorious in 4K.

It feels like going from a dot matrix printer to a laser printer.

Bear in mind that it doesn’t cost any extra to go 4K: these displays were bought just for me and I got to choose, and there was basically no difference in cost.

As zero999 said, Windows display scaling (on apps that support this, which is nearly all) is done on the vector graphics (or with higher-resolution bitmaps). It’s not done by interpolating the 100% bitmap. (That is what windows does for old apps that don’t support scaling.)

 
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Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #235 on: November 10, 2022, 06:55:10 pm »
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but the higher resolution monitor will look shaper

Even though you can't distinguish between pixels?
To a point. At about 18” — the closest we ever look at our screens (like on phones), we can resolve about 300 pixels per inch. Beyond that, it doesn’t really make any difference.
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #236 on: November 10, 2022, 07:46:59 pm »
So if there was 8K input it would look better than upscaled input despite you not being able to see the individual pixels?
Setting the scaling on software simply draws the interface larger, to compensate for the higher resolution. Suppose the dimensions of a character such as the letter o is 10 pixels by 10 at 100%. If the scaling is set to 150%, then it will draw the letter o at 15 by 15 pixels.

Isn't that what stuff like Cleartype is all about? They draw at the 15x15 virtual scale and map that to the 10x10 actual pixels.
Nope. You’re thinking of (one approach to) grayscale anti-aliasing. It’s actually usually done by other, more computationally efficient methods.

Cleartype is Microsoft’s name for subpixel rendering, which allows the text renderer to be aware of the RGB subpixels in an LCD, so that it can produce more accurate letter shapes.

ClearType's intelligence is treating the subpixels of a pixel as usable for improving font clarity.  This is because the human eye has poor chrominance resolution compared to its luminance resolution
That is NOT why subpixel rendering works!

The principle isn’t that our eyes have lower chrominance resolution: the principle is that to draw a full-color pixel somewhere on a screen, you need all three subpixels — but they can be any three adjacent subpixels, giving you triple the horizontal placement resolution, with zero loss of chrominance resolution on all pixels except the first and last one of a line.

Where it gets trickier is attempting to use subpixel rendering not just to get triple placement resolution, but to draw lines whose thickness is not an integer multiple of a whole pixel. As soon as you use fractional pixel widths, you risk color shifts. So in practice, some algorithms “shade” grayscale-antialiased text with the colors to avoid extreme color shifts. Others render in full “color” and then desaturate it.

As it is, subpixel rendering is on its way out: nobody ever made a subpixel rendering implementation that supports arbitrary display rotation. Microsoft’s supports BGR subpixel order in addition to RGB, but nobody ever made a rendered that works with a display rotated 90 degrees. So between modern gadgets that support dynamically switching between landscape and portrait modes, high-resolution displays that simply have tons of resolution — and many of which use non-uniform subpixel arrangements (especially OLED, some of which is RGBW, some with different size subpixels for RGB*) — plus modern graphics pipelines that support the little animations and transforms in modern user interfaces, many modern OSes are deprecating subpixel rendering. iOS has never supported it, macOS has disabled it by default ever since the Retina (200% scaling) Macs came out, etc. The newer, iOS-derived graphics engine in macOS doesn’t even support subpixel rendering at all.

Windows has two completely different text rendering engines, the old GDI one and the later WPF one. The GDI ClearType is truly just subpixel-tweaked grayscale antialiasing, as it does not allow characters to be positioned in increments smaller than a whole pixel. WPF ClearType is extremely similar to the Mac subpixel renderer, which allows sub-pixel positioning (i.e. you can position a character anywhere, e.g. at 48.2216px), allowing more accurate overall text rendering. Both WPF and Core Graphics/Core Animation (the modern graphics APIs on iOS and macOS) fully support grayscale anti-aliasing with sub-pixel positioning, since it works well on any type of display, regardless of subpixel arrangement.

Unfortunately Windows can’t switch rendering modes on the fly, so on windows devices that can rotate the screen (like my convertible laptop), as soon as you rotate the screen away from whatever orientation ClearType is set to, ClearType text looks awful. Apple avoided this problem by simply never using subpixel rendering on iOS (and until now, not shipping any “convertible” Macs).

*despite the wiki article on subpixel rendering having an obscenely oversized section on the PenTile series of non-uniform subpixel arrangements, claiming some were designed for subpixel rendering, I am not aware of any implementations of such renderers being in actual use in the wild.
 
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Offline PlainName

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #237 on: November 11, 2022, 01:10:00 pm »
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At about 18” ... we can resolve about 300 pixels per inch

That's theory, and no doubt best case. What does practice say? I've seen people with their phone stuck up their left nostril and others holding them at arm's length. Theory is great, but it doesn't tell you how it actually is.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #238 on: November 11, 2022, 01:12:28 pm »
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You’re thinking of (one approach to) grayscale anti-aliasing

Yes, probably! The point I was trying to make is that the edges are blurred to make you think they're less jagged. The actual name or technique isn't really important.

Edit: although that point seems to have lost its relevance in the diversion, so I have no idea where this is going now.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2022, 01:26:33 pm by PlainName »
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #239 on: November 11, 2022, 07:49:16 pm »
Obviously above a certain pixel density, antialiasing may not be necessary anymore. Maybe 8K is that threshold at arm-length for moderate-sized displays. Haven't seen any 8K display yet. But 4K isn't quite there except for very small displays.

This is all a matter of aliasing. Antialiasing is filtering, and the higher the "oversampling" ratio, the simplest your filter can become. To the point of not requiring any.

As I already said, "resolving a pixel" doesn't mean squat, especially below a certain pixel size. This isn't how eyesight works. We are not resolving individual pixels when we look at a bitmapped display (unless obviously there are only a few single pixels distributed over the display, in which case, good luck to even see them on a small FHD display at arm length. Just like we are not resolving individual frames when we look at a video. This misconception keeps on going.
 
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Offline KaneTW

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #240 on: November 11, 2022, 11:27:09 pm »
There's a few considerations that go into effective human eye resolution. The spot size of the lens (around 10 um), the various cone densities (http://www.cvrl.org/database/text/intros/introdens.htm), the brain combining L/R images for additional fidelity, etc etc.

60 PPD in the foveal region and much less in the periphery is what I operate with. That being said, a VR set with 35 PPD is very close to being perfectly lifelike (apart from reduced peripheral vision).
 
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Online vad

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #241 on: November 12, 2022, 05:00:52 am »
Let’s do some elementary math here.

Statement #1. Angular resolution of human eye is about 0.017°, according to Wikipedia. Angular resolution is defined as angular distance between two points that an instrument, human eye in this case, can distinguish.

Statement #2. For a digital image to resolve two points separated by 0.017° angle, angular distance between its two adjacent pixels should be at least half angular distance between the points, according to Nyquist sampling theorem. In other words angular distance between two adjacent display pixels should be <= 0.0085°, before a person with 20/20 vision could start noticing sampling artifacts.

Statement #3. For the best cinema theatrical experience, horizontal viewing angle should be around 45-50 degrees, according to SMPTE and THX recommendations. Let’s choose 47.5° as recommended sweet spot, and then compute the smallest horizontal pixel resolution requirement as 47.5° / 0.0085 °/pixel = 5,588 pixels. 4K image with 3,840 horizontal pixels does not meet this requirement, and 8K image does.

For 85” TV a person has to sit 7 feet (2.1 meters) from the TV for 47.5 degree horizontal viewing angle. If you, like me, sit much further from TV, you should not see any difference between 4K and 8K. In cinema, however, 8K projectors can potentially bring some improvement. AFAIK, most digital cinema projectors are either 2K or 4K today.
 
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Offline eti

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #242 on: November 12, 2022, 08:21:20 am »
Doesn’t matter how many “K” you have, it’s still the same inane, woke agenda drivel coming through.
 

Offline Ice-Tea

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #243 on: November 12, 2022, 08:37:47 am »
Doesn’t matter how many “K” you have, it’s still the same inane, woke agenda drivel coming through.

You should get a TV with a remote, mate!
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #244 on: November 12, 2022, 12:57:05 pm »
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At about 18” ... we can resolve about 300 pixels per inch

That's theory, and no doubt best case. What does practice say? I've seen people with their phone stuck up their left nostril and others holding them at arm's length. Theory is great, but it doesn't tell you how it actually is.
Sorry, I should have been clearer, in that I meant that 18” is the normal closest distance for typical use, but yes, closer isn’t too uncommon. Even so, I think my memory was slightly off, see below.

The question of resolution, however, is much clearer, because it’s a function of angular resolution, as I explained in an earlier reply, which has a link to a page about why more resolution doesn’t make sense, and that page has a link to an online resolution calculator.

Consider that for years, 300dpi laser printers were the norm, and considered razor sharp. Higher resolution helped a little bit on text, but its real value was in producing much smoother halftones. Displays don’t need extra resolution to do halftoning, since their pixels can directly take intermediate values.

I just checked this calculator: https://stari.co/tv-monitor-viewing-distance-calculator
I entered numbers to approximate a sheet of paper at 300dpi: 14” diagonal, 2400x3300 pixels. It says the minimum distance (to not be able to see individual pixels) is 26cm, just under 11 inches. So I think my memory about display resolution was 300dpi at 12”, not 18”, and that I was conflating that with the 18-24” that we commonly sit from a computer display, not a phone display.

That same calculator includes some criteria for field of view, calculating a minimum viewing distance that provides for a 70 degree field of view, e.g. 3.1-8.4 feet (0.95-2.55m) for a 60”. (That 70° is actually on the high side, though: the THX standards say 40 degrees maximum, and recommend 6.0-9.0 feet for 60”.)

But even with that calculator, which suggests shorter minimum distances than others, an 85” 8K TV has what they call a visual acuity distance (at any distance greater than this, the angular resolution of the eye cannot discern a single pixel) of 2.9 feet (0.87m), while even their minimum distance for 70° is 4.4 feet. So even a very generously short minimum distance is substantially longer than the distance at which a pixel cannot be discerned. Since this ratio is independent of screen size (being a function of angular resolution and angular field of view), it follows that 8K does not and cannot ever make sense for watching video.

Computer displays are a different matter, since we don’t need to keep the whole screen in our field of view: we can have a large display up close and then focus on a specific area of it by moving your head closer to the area of interest.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #245 on: November 12, 2022, 01:01:12 pm »
Doesn’t matter how many “K” you have, it’s still the same inane, woke agenda drivel coming through.
You really need to leave your politics at the door. Your post explaining your situation bought you some leeway, but it’s not carte blanche to invoke politics, religion, etc. over and over again.
 
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Online Zero999

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #246 on: November 12, 2022, 01:29:54 pm »
Doesn’t matter how many “K” you have, it’s still the same inane, woke agenda drivel coming through.

You should get a TV with a remote, mate!
The best way to avoid all that bollocks is to keep the TV switched off.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #247 on: November 12, 2022, 06:56:03 pm »
Disclaimer, haven't seen the banning proposal entirely. But it looks like it wouldn't be only TV sets that would be affected by the ban, but any 8K display.
 

Offline eti

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #248 on: November 13, 2022, 01:53:15 am »
Doesn’t matter how many “K” you have, it’s still the same inane, woke agenda drivel coming through.
You really need to leave your politics at the door. Your post explaining your situation bought you some leeway, but it’s not carte blanche to invoke politics, religion, etc. over and over again.

Not liking "woke" shite is pretty universal. Nice attempt to hide behind "No politics or religion"  - "woke" is universally dismissed and mocked, it's SO dumb, it's laughed at hard by any sane person. I am not talking politics - "woke" is a joke.
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #249 on: November 13, 2022, 06:38:45 am »
Doesn’t matter how many “K” you have, it’s still the same inane, woke agenda drivel coming through.
You really need to leave your politics at the door. Your post explaining your situation bought you some leeway, but it’s not carte blanche to invoke politics, religion, etc. over and over again.

Not liking "woke" shite is pretty universal. Nice attempt to hide behind "No politics or religion"  - "woke" is universally dismissed and mocked, it's SO dumb, it's laughed at hard by any sane person. I am not talking politics - "woke" is a joke.

No, you are definitely "talking politics".
Many people think the term "woke" is stupid, but support various good ideas which are mislabelled as "woke" by those who oppose them.
It seems that "woke" has become one of the all-purpose swearwords which are used by a certain demographic to smear anything they don't agree with.
 
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