Author Topic: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!  (Read 25240 times)

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Offline unknownparticleTopic starter

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #75 on: November 03, 2022, 03:28:51 pm »
Oh no. Some power hungry TVs which are needlessly high resolution won't be for sale to the tiny slice of the market which spends excessive amounts of money on them. I will have a good cry over this.
Yes, it is pretty much like Audiophiles!
Why produce resolution that the eye can't use?
Because it's all about the emotion and psycho-acoustics, apparently ::)
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Offline rstofer

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #76 on: November 03, 2022, 04:04:57 pm »
Next is refrigerators, and where you Americans are the worst offenders!  With your almost walk in, 2 door, ice on tap, 8 ft tall behemoths, consuming up to 500 watts, there is your elephant in the room!  Even here in the poor impoverished UK though, it's still about 200 - 300 watts.

And it's still too small.  Today the best strategy is to buy and freeze all you can because the price will be higher next week.  Freezers (only) went out of stock the second day of the pandemic and I don't think there is much inventory now, years later.

Air conditioning is the largest load around here especially when it got to 115° F (46° C) a couple of months back.  Pretty warm!  Summer months are routinely 90°F+ (32°C+).  You know it is hot when the AC is still running at 3 in the morning.
 

Online coppice

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #77 on: November 03, 2022, 04:10:43 pm »
Next is refrigerators, and where you Americans are the worst offenders!  With your almost walk in, 2 door, ice on tap, 8 ft tall behemoths, consuming upto 500 watts, there is your elephant in the room!  Even here in the poor impoverished UK though, it's still about 200 - 300 watts.
On the subject of refrigeration, I was looking at chest freezers this week. These are far more efficient than vertical freezers. However with the current wacky efficiency ratings they all get an F rating for efficiency, while the vertical freezers do better.
 

Offline Bicurico

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #78 on: November 03, 2022, 04:32:02 pm »
I use 3 monitors on my PC. I have been wondering if I should swap them for a 48" 4K TV. This would give me the same size as 4x 24" FullHD monitors, but without the annoying frames.
The cons are however that separate screens allow individual programs to run in full screen mode. Also, there is the issue of the refresh rate using 1x 4K on one HDMI. Not even sure if my graphics card wouls upport it (I am using a Geforce 660 and have a Geforce 860, too). The other reason is that my 3 monitors are arranged in an arc, to better match my field of view. Using one flat screen of similar size would result in considerable difference in distances to the eye (border vs center).

Anyway, this is my ONLY application for 4K. Using regular household TV's up to 70" I seriously doubt that there is much difference between FullHD and 4K at recommended distance. Note that 4K for computer application is different, as one sits much closer to the screen.

So why 8K? As far as I am aware, it was developed in Japan a few years ago and was intended to be te natural step: FullHD --> 4K --> 8K. But of course, they must have forgotten that FullHD is already more than enough for normal consumers! Not to mention the required bandwidth - not only in broadcast, but also in recording and post production.

4K is still suffering with HEVC/.h256 which is complex and not many productions are available in 4K. I doubt this will change.

Again, the only reason I am aware of to move to 8K is to make the whole filming and production digital at a resultion that can match or even exceed analog film.

To render 8K, a really big screen is required and eventually the cinema of the future will use smaller rooms and instead of projecting the movie, it will be rendered on big 8K LCD screens.

Coming on topic, the title is complete rubbish. The EU is not banning any TV. The keyword is energy eficiency and ALL devices not matching the designated efficiency rating will be banned.

Why do 8K TV's exceed the rating? Because they are so big and have so many pixels/transistors. Either manufacturers can optimize this or you won't find consumer grade 8K TV's in the store. But, as already mentioned, you don't see many other types of devices in stores!

Conclusion: much smoke for nothing.



« Last Edit: November 03, 2022, 04:34:38 pm by Bicurico »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #79 on: November 03, 2022, 04:49:31 pm »
Oh no. Some power hungry TVs which are needlessly high resolution won't be for sale to the tiny slice of the market which spends excessive amounts of money on them. I will have a good cry over this.
Yes, it is pretty much like Audiophiles!
Why produce resolution that the eye can't use?

I've never seen an 8k TV but I'm skeptical of that comment. I've had people tell me that 4k is needlessly high resolution and yet I can clearly see the difference compared to 1080p. I've had so many people tell me that xx Hz is fast enough that the eye can't perceive flicker and yet I can see it clearly up to significantly higher frequencies.

I generally find 1080p adequate, but 4k certainly looks sharper and smoother.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #80 on: November 03, 2022, 06:24:49 pm »
Oh no. Some power hungry TVs which are needlessly high resolution won't be for sale to the tiny slice of the market which spends excessive amounts of money on them. I will have a good cry over this.
Yes, it is pretty much like Audiophiles!
Why produce resolution that the eye can't use?

I've never seen an 8k TV but I'm skeptical of that comment. I've had people tell me that 4k is needlessly high resolution and yet I can clearly see the difference compared to 1080p. I've had so many people tell me that xx Hz is fast enough that the eye can't perceive flicker and yet I can see it clearly up to significantly higher frequencies.

I generally find 1080p adequate, but 4k certainly looks sharper and smoother.

Don't bother replying to this kind of argument. It always the same, uninformed that we have addressed a few times but it still doesn't sink in.
There was a recent thread about hearing as well in a simiilar vein.

To begin with, any such statement should come with a definite and clear statement about "what the eye can use". Let's start the fun. It's much more complex than it appears. It would basically require books of thousands of pages and years of study. For the amount of stuff that is currently known. Which is not even the end of the story.

Anyone non visually impaired has no trouble seeing the difference between FHD and 4K even on a relatively small screen. No doubt the difference between 4K and 8K on a larger screen will be very apparent.

I am absolutely all, 100% for using proper science and debunking bullshit, but when poor science is used as a pretext to pass as smart when you know jack shit, well, nope. :popcorn:
 
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Online coppice

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #81 on: November 03, 2022, 06:34:29 pm »
Anyone non visually impaired has no trouble seeing the difference between FHD and 4K even on a relatively small screen. No doubt the difference between 4K and 8K on a larger screen will be very apparent.
I am sitting in front of a 4k screen showing small clear readable text. If I showed this same image at 2k resolution the text would be unreadable. For many images the extra resolution is pointless, but not for all.

4k looks great up to about 55". Above that you start to see pixels if you are sitting anywhere near the screen. You don't need 8k source material for an 8k screen to have benefits for the viewer. A sweeping curve showing severe jaggies on a screen at its natural resolution can be smoothed a lot, without filtering that blurs it, by good quality upscaling of 2k or 4k material to 8k.
 

Offline Miyuki

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #82 on: November 03, 2022, 07:07:36 pm »
I was recently in one showroom walking by one of those microLED (not sure if it was just 4k or 8k)
But it was like passing by the IR heating panel
I was radiating blasting heat even at a distance
 

Online RJSV

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #83 on: November 03, 2022, 07:13:59 pm »
My main attention, here, is on the 'control' issues, like:
   1.). You People don't know enough to make decision.
 
   2.). We make the ban, you WILL comply.
          (or else).
   
   3).  You are just a stupid TV viewer, we know better.
           You saw some AD that brainwashed you, to think
           that you want 8k.
   4). Now, let's talk about that Authoritarian person   
        over there..., Yeah that's him.

   My point being; the energy use debate is so rife with hypocrisy and contradictions, that a person hesitates, to trust / believe.  Watch the discussion around John Kerry and the private jet thing.  John Kerry, attending climate change conference IN HIS PRIVATE JET!

   Oh yeah, and now there is a whole system just poised for that kind of 'statement'... A whole array of 'Fact Checking', to dismiss comments like the John Kerry thing.  In this context, makes it hard to trust the demands to go authoritarian, on 8k, for example...
   And maybe bringing up John Kerry's PRIVATE JET is not fair, but I see hipocracy / arrogance, and I don't trust the whole climate warrior thing.
Sad thing is, we DO need to respond, just maybe take the exploitation / power abuses as the issue gets hijacked, by various politically motivated camps.

   Sorry, got to go, I see a 'Fact Checker's in my rear view mirror...(lol)
   
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #84 on: November 03, 2022, 07:32:51 pm »
   1.). You People don't know enough to make decision.

The general public do not know enough to set product standards, indeed. Reality does exist.
 
Quote
   2.). We make the ban, you WILL comply.
          (or else).

Nothing is being banned. TVs are not being confiscated, nobody is going door to door to check you haven't got an inefficient device. Product standards are being set.
   
Quote
   3).  You are just a stupid TV viewer, we know better.
           You saw some AD that brainwashed you, to think
           that you want 8k.

Yes. That genuinely is how most people approach buying products - advertisements and paid for articles manipulate them into buying what the manufacturer wants to sell them. The manufacturer puts on the market what they want to sell, not what people want to buy.
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #85 on: November 03, 2022, 07:42:29 pm »
It's a general trend of the EU to presume that the general public knows nothing [and shouldn't know anything].
As someone who spent almost all of his career as the interface between technical and non-technical folks, allow me to express something that many technical people do not realize, or simply refuse to accept:

The overwhelming majority of the general public is non-technical, and cannot (and should not!) be expected to know anything technical. As technical people, it’s our responsibility to make technology accessible to everyone, and part of that is making certain decisions for people. The average citizen buys stuff based primarily on features and price, not on technical quality and efficiency, and so absent government regulation, most people will not spend extra for a product that will actually save them money in the long run and save the planet at the same time.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2022, 07:49:04 pm by tooki »
 
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Offline Bud

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #86 on: November 03, 2022, 08:04:51 pm »
Do I hear Steve Jobs speaking from his grave ...
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #87 on: November 03, 2022, 08:10:44 pm »
I never liked Jobs while he was alive, but after he died I noticed a rapid drop in the quality and polish of Apple products. There is no way in hell he would have let iOS7 go out in the state it was, or the notches in the displays of iphones and now macbooks.
 
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Offline pcprogrammer

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #88 on: November 03, 2022, 08:17:42 pm »
Oh the European parliament, a big bunch of hypocrites with their views on saving the world, while still every month move back and forth between Brussels and Strasbourg. The day that they stop doing that is the day that I will start to take them somewhat seriously.

Especially with a commercial in mind the Dutch government used, or maybe still uses, to tell you that a better world starts with your self. They should act on that advice themselves, but what can I say, politicians just a big bunch of lying bastards.

And sure the general public does not know about technology, but neither do the politicians and don't get me started on the consultants they hire.

I saw some mention about sugar in this thread, and yes it is bad for you, but so is all the crap food that is cheap. But when some suggest that it might be a good idea to exempt vegetables from VAT, to stimulate the wider public to eat healthier, it all becomes very difficult and needs lots of meetings to discuss it and it will take at least a couple of years to change the rules. :palm:

They have never heard of the rule to keep it simple |O

 :-DD Rant over  :-DD

Offline Bud

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #89 on: November 03, 2022, 08:22:57 pm »
I never liked Jobs while he was alive, but after he died I noticed a rapid drop in the quality and polish of Apple products. There is no way in hell he would have let iOS7 go out in the state it was, or the notches in the displays of iphones and now macbooks.
Walter Isaacson, who wrote Steve Job's biography book, told about an episode at the hospital where Jobs was having his surgery, when Jobs did not like the oxygen mask he mentored the personnel how to improve the mask design.  8)
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #90 on: November 03, 2022, 08:25:05 pm »
They have never heard of the rule to keep it simple |O

I bet if you got invited to one of their big meetings, and spent all day.  Carefully explaining about the KISS principal.  You would have a significant impact, and they would nod their heads in agreement, clap and then arrange for it to be sorted out.

They'd then spend 0.5 Billion Euros, on hiring consultants and others to sort it out.  Eight years later, they'd come up with a 9,500 pages in total, set of 7 massive/big new rule books, on how to operate and use the KISS principal.

Which kind of defeats the whole point of the KISS principal, in the first place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle

Instead of coming up with a nice/catchy one liner, explaining the KISS principal, concisely and well.
 
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Offline KaneTW

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #91 on: November 03, 2022, 08:53:11 pm »
It's a general trend of the EU to presume that the general public knows nothing [and shouldn't know anything].
As someone who spent almost all of his career as the interface between technical and non-technical folks, allow me to express something that many technical people do not realize, or simply refuse to accept:

The overwhelming majority of the general public is non-technical, and cannot (and should not!) be expected to know anything technical. As technical people, it’s our responsibility to make technology accessible to everyone, and part of that is making certain decisions for people. The average citizen buys stuff based primarily on features and price, not on technical quality and efficiency, and so absent government regulation, most people will not spend extra for a product that will actually save them money in the long run and save the planet at the same time.

I completely agree, but restrictions and regulations are not the solution except for life-threatening/etc situations.

Simply put, if 10% of users want an inefficient high-resolution TV and 90% don't care, the 10% shouldn't have to suffer so the 90% enjoy a lower energy bill.

"Suffer" in this case meaning anywhere from "not being able to get a 8K TV at an attractive pricepoint" to "yet another regulation making it near-impossible to enter the consumer electronics market, and yet another reason to never sell to consumers, ever"
 
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Online DavidAlfa

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #92 on: November 03, 2022, 08:55:16 pm »
Sorry but


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Offline MK14

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #93 on: November 03, 2022, 09:16:42 pm »
As someone who spent almost all of his career as the interface between technical and non-technical folks, allow me to express something that many technical people do not realize, or simply refuse to accept:

The overwhelming majority of the general public is non-technical, and cannot (and should not!) be expected to know anything technical. As technical people, it’s our responsibility to make technology accessible to everyone, and part of that is making certain decisions for people. The average citizen buys stuff based primarily on features and price, not on technical quality and efficiency, and so absent government regulation, most people will not spend extra for a product that will actually save them money in the long run and save the planet at the same time.

The thing is.  I think it would be a lot better, if they gently persuaded people, to 'do the right thing'.  E.g. Change from buying filament, 100 watt bulbs, to getting (largely) equivalent, 10 watts (approx), LED equivalent light bulbs, instead.
Using methods such as advertising, raising public awareness, of the benefits of using LED bulbs, over filament bulbs.  The benefits, such as a significant electricity cost reduction, etc.
Various initiatives, further moving people over the LED lighting, and perhaps other forms of low energy lighting.

Instead of just (in my opinion, taking the lazy/easy option of just making filament bulbs illegal, through legislation).

Then, people would be much freer, to do what they want in life, and there would still be a big move over to LED lighting.  Just that filament bulbs would still be available, especially for the various reasons, why they can still be useful.

Similarly, the overly-powerful law(s), seem to have outlawed 8K TVs, wouldn't have happened, if they had taken a more relaxed (much less legislative) way, compared to the current situation.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #94 on: November 03, 2022, 09:30:49 pm »
As someone who spent almost all of his career as the interface between technical and non-technical folks, allow me to express something that many technical people do not realize, or simply refuse to accept:

The overwhelming majority of the general public is non-technical, and cannot (and should not!) be expected to know anything technical. As technical people, it’s our responsibility to make technology accessible to everyone, and part of that is making certain decisions for people. The average citizen buys stuff based primarily on features and price, not on technical quality and efficiency, and so absent government regulation, most people will not spend extra for a product that will actually save them money in the long run and save the planet at the same time.

The thing is.  I think it would be a lot better, if they gently persuaded people, to 'do the right thing'.  E.g. Change from buying filament, 100 watt bulbs, to getting (largely) equivalent, 10 watts (approx), LED equivalent light bulbs, instead.
Using methods such as advertising, raising public awareness, of the benefits of using LED bulbs, over filament bulbs.  The benefits, such as a significant electricity cost reduction, etc.
Various initiatives, further moving people over the LED lighting, and perhaps other forms of low energy lighting.

Instead of just (in my opinion, taking the lazy/easy option of just making filament bulbs illegal, through legislation).

Then, people would be much freer, to do what they want in life, and there would still be a big move over to LED lighting.  Just that filament bulbs would still be available, especially for the various reasons, why they can still be useful.

Similarly, the overly-powerful law(s), seem to have outlawed 8K TVs, wouldn't have happened, if they had taken a more relaxed (much less legislative) way, compared to the current situation.

I can see both sides here. On one hand, I like having choice. On the other hand, I have met people that steadfastly refused to believe that LED/CFL bulbs save energy, despite the fact that it's easily demonstrated by directly measuring the power consumption. I've met other people that were by most measures intelligent, yet they simply could not make the connection between the efficiency rating of an AC or heat pump and their monthly bill.

Personally I would prefer to tax inefficient stuff in order to encourage higher efficiency items to be purchased, but that way nothing is banned.
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #95 on: November 03, 2022, 10:05:13 pm »
I can see both sides here. On one hand, I like having choice. On the other hand, I have met people that steadfastly refused to believe that LED/CFL bulbs save energy, despite the fact that it's easily demonstrated by directly measuring the power consumption. I've met other people that were by most measures intelligent, yet they simply could not make the connection between the efficiency rating of an AC or heat pump and their monthly bill.

Personally I would prefer to tax inefficient stuff in order to encourage higher efficiency items to be purchased, but that way nothing is banned.

I know EXACTLY what you mean.  It is a bit like, when you meet up with someone, and they take you to a shop, to buy three printer ink cartridges, for £19 each (price completely made up), almost £60.  As they explain their printer needs them every couple of months, for the 100 pages they have printed.

You explain that it is cheaper in the longer term, to buy a more expensive printer, but with considerably longer lasting, and cheaper (overall), supplies, such as toner.
Yet, they say the printer only cost £29, so it MUST be the cheaper option, compared to the £200 printers, I'm suggesting, maybe they should have bought.

I think part of the problem, is that people don't necessarily even see the mathematics, of £60 x 6 (if every 2 months) = £360 per year.  Whereas a £200 Laser printer, or modern eco-tank printer, with the odd £10 .. £100+ toner/ink refill, every couple of years or so.  Would be considerably cheaper in the longer term.  Yet they keep on shelling out, £60 (or whatever the cost is), for three printer cartridges, until the next 100 pages are printed out, so around another couple of months.
 

Online RJSV

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #96 on: November 03, 2022, 10:12:32 pm »
Tooki, you almost got it right, (which is why I pushed the 'thanks' button).  However, we are going to need a good sweep, of corruption.  Always always always there's gonna be some dumb-ass messing with and twisting the agenda...because that's the way things have been unfolding.
   I observed the push, to get Americans out of their cars (Pres. Obama 2009-2016.).  Meanwhile local BUS services cut like mad, 2013 Alameda-Contra Costa counties.
   I noticed our US Transportation Secretary projects a sense of incompetence, (and how he talks), incompetent in the very expertise needed to declare technical things for us to follow.
   Yeah, 'not banned', it's just that,...wait, ...
   'EU BANS 8k' that's the title of this thread.  And I get to 'argue' that ? No thanks, I'm prioritizing my time, to some degree.
 
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Online vk6zgo

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #97 on: November 03, 2022, 11:57:47 pm »

I can see both sides here. On one hand, I like having choice. On the other hand, I have met people that steadfastly refused to believe that LED/CFL bulbs save energy, despite the fact that it's easily demonstrated by directly measuring the power consumption. I've met other people that were by most measures intelligent, yet they simply could not make the connection between the efficiency rating of an AC or heat pump and their monthly bill.

Personally I would prefer to tax inefficient stuff in order to encourage higher efficiency items to be purchased, but that way nothing is banned.

CFL bulbs are the worst thing ever foisted on the public.
They cost more to buy, produce adequate light initially, but their output falls off rapidly, radically reducing their useable lifetime.

Contrast with conventional Fluorescent tubes, which still produce substantial levels of lighting, up until they start to flicker, then  rapidly drop off, after a much longer lifetime than CFLs.

The idea of somehow squishing a "fluoro" up to fit inside a "light bulb" was doomed from the start.

The first LED bulbs were nice & efficient, but their light levels dropped off rapidly in service.
More recently, this problem has been overcome, & the current generation deliver on the promises.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #98 on: November 04, 2022, 12:07:35 am »

I can see both sides here. On one hand, I like having choice. On the other hand, I have met people that steadfastly refused to believe that LED/CFL bulbs save energy, despite the fact that it's easily demonstrated by directly measuring the power consumption. I've met other people that were by most measures intelligent, yet they simply could not make the connection between the efficiency rating of an AC or heat pump and their monthly bill.

Personally I would prefer to tax inefficient stuff in order to encourage higher efficiency items to be purchased, but that way nothing is banned.

CFL bulbs are the worst thing ever foisted on the public.
They cost more to buy, produce adequate light initially, but their output falls off rapidly, radically reducing their useable lifetime.

Contrast with conventional Fluorescent tubes, which still produce substantial levels of lighting, up until they start to flicker, then  rapidly drop off, after a much longer lifetime than CFLs.

The idea of somehow squishing a "fluoro" up to fit inside a "light bulb" was doomed from the start.

The first LED bulbs were nice & efficient, but their light levels dropped off rapidly in service.
More recently, this problem has been overcome, & the current generation deliver on the promises.

I was an early adopter of CFLs, I had switched over completely by 2001. They were not perfect by any means but for the most part I didn't have a lot of problems with them. The brightness does fall rapidly over the first 100 hours to around 90% of initial and then follows a much slower decline until they reach 70% at which point they are considered end of life. They worked particularly well for me in dusk to dawn lights outside where I regularly got over the rated lifespan of 6k-8k hours. LED is better, but CFL was hardly the worst thing, they worked well enough for me that I haven't used incandescent bulbs for general illumination in over 20 years.

I have not seen the lumen decline of LED bulbs, even early ones. The Philips 8W LED in the porch light by my front door was installed in 2011 and runs dusk till dawn 7 days a week. It is indistinguishable from a NOS one I never ended up using.
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #99 on: November 04, 2022, 12:18:55 am »
I have replaced most CFLs with LED a couple of years ago when LED had matured enough to be cost effective and work well. I had an early LED lamp but that was pretty crappy.

My experience with CFL bulbs is that the more expensive, long life ones have a long lifespan but they tend to startup slow. The cheaper ones crap out quickly. I have replaced the CFL tube armatures I have with HF drivers. HF drivers make the tubes last almost forever. Though I have not found LED panels that have >90% CRI like the CFL tubes I have in my lab and workspace so I'll stick to CFL in there.

All in all I must say that the modern LED lamps certainly are very good and offer a lot of lighting possibilities that are not possible with incandescent or CFL.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2022, 12:24:44 am by nctnico »
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