Author Topic: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices  (Read 66868 times)

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Offline PlainName

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #150 on: June 12, 2022, 08:56:30 am »
Quote from: Simon
As far as I am aware their is one fast charging system, it has several power/voltage levels but as there is a protocol used to negotiate this any charger and and phone are a match.

Perhaps your awareness is lacking. There are several fast-charge systems and the problem is, AIUI, that the 'fast' bit only works with compatible devices. Use the wrong charger and it will charge, but not fast.

Making them all use USB-C PD means there will be one system where 'fast' will work with whatever is plugged in (that can do fast, obv).

Manufacturers like Samsung and Xiaomi have an interest in not being compatible with other systems, so they're not going to join up unless you make them. Which is what this push is partly about.


 
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Offline grumpydoc

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #151 on: June 12, 2022, 09:26:46 am »
Not in UK -> https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-61720276

Quote : UK will not copy EU demand for common charging cable

at this point isn't the UK just insisting on doing every opposite of what the EU does?

Pretty much - if the EU mandated breathing oxygen the UK would state that oxygen was for losers and announce the new UK standard for breathing carbon dioxide.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #152 on: June 12, 2022, 09:55:46 am »
Quote from: Simon
As far as I am aware their is one fast charging system, it has several power/voltage levels but as there is a protocol used to negotiate this any charger and and phone are a match.

Perhaps your awareness is lacking. There are several fast-charge systems and the problem is, AIUI, that the 'fast' bit only works with compatible devices. Use the wrong charger and it will charge, but not fast.

Making them all use USB-C PD means there will be one system where 'fast' will work with whatever is plugged in (that can do fast, obv).

Manufacturers like Samsung and Xiaomi have an interest in not being compatible with other systems, so they're not going to join up unless you make them. Which is what this push is partly about.




Well our ever not very detailed BBC may have missed a lot of the detail of the law but I did not hear anything about standardising on a charging protocol. That is the sort of nuance that politicians miss out on too and end up making useless laws. If all they do is make a law about the connector they have just wasted their time and tax payer money enacting something that is good as saying that phones must always be charged with electricity.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #153 on: June 12, 2022, 10:14:13 am »
....because USB-C is the only connector which the PD negotiation works on (it has some extra pins to help).

I haven't checked whether the current versions support this, but the original version of USB-PD was negotiated over Vbus, and therefore worked with standard USB-A plugs.

Well our ever not very detailed BBC may have missed a lot of the detail of the law but I did not hear anything about standardising on a charging protocol. That is the sort of nuance that politicians miss out on too and end up making useless laws. If all they do is make a law about the connector they have just wasted their time and tax payer money enacting something that is good as saying that phones must always be charged with electricity.

So you haven't bothered to do any research or even read this very thread, then.
 
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Offline Simon

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #154 on: June 12, 2022, 10:28:52 am »
OK so has the charging standard also been mandated?
 

Online tszaboo

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #155 on: June 12, 2022, 10:37:23 am »
Whether or not I hate apple was irrelevant. as I said people buying apple will buy apple and have the same connector on each new device, people buying android the same. This is not like 20 years ago when every manufacturer had a different size barrel jack connector and a different polarity and a different voltage, that is when we needed this law, the situation has now resolved itself and they decide to introduce a stupid law to say look how good we are - 20 years later.
OK, let's try this again:

It's not about the phones.
It's not just about the phones.
This is more than just the phones.
More devices are covered byt the law than just the phones.
Not just the phones are covered by this.
More devices have to use USB than just the phones.
The phones are not just the devices this law covers.
 
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Offline Simon

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #156 on: June 12, 2022, 10:42:04 am »
Where phones go the rest follow :)
 

Offline Someone

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #157 on: June 12, 2022, 12:04:42 pm »
....because USB-C is the only connector which the PD negotiation works on (it has some extra pins to help).
I haven't checked whether the current versions support this, but the original version of USB-PD was negotiated over Vbus, and therefore worked with standard USB-A plugs.
There was something with comms on the power lines, but it used a slightly different A and B plug variant? Never seen it in the wild so unsure if it was ever used, or has been dropped.
 

Offline VK3DRBTopic starter

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #158 on: June 12, 2022, 02:00:57 pm »
Where phones go the rest follow :)

You are pretty much correct. Some electronics parts are only available is VERY tiny micro BGA packages because mobile phones use them. You cannot get them in larger SMD packages. Quite annoying. No technical reason why, other than phones is where the $$$ and volume are. 
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #159 on: June 12, 2022, 03:46:27 pm »
....because USB-C is the only connector which the PD negotiation works on (it has some extra pins to help).
I haven't checked whether the current versions support this, but the original version of USB-PD was negotiated over Vbus, and therefore worked with standard USB-A plugs.
There was something with comms on the power lines, but it used a slightly different A and B plug variant? Never seen it in the wild so unsure if it was ever used, or has been dropped.

Yeah, unfortunately I can't quickly locate a copy of the spec for that. I do see something about 'mechanical marking', so perhaps this meant a notch and a switch inside the port, or something along those lines? Certainly current PD standards use the side channel, and solutions like Qualcomm Quick Charge use the data pins - or at least did, and are now just an alternate protocol coexisting with USB PD. Soon to be dead and gone to kill a chunk of their proprietary charger game.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #160 on: June 12, 2022, 03:54:44 pm »
From an out of date USB spec:

Quote
In USB Power Delivery, pairs of directly Attached ports negotiate voltage, current and/or direction of power flow over
the USB cable, using VBUS or the CC wire as the communications channel.  The mechanisms used, operate
independently of other USB methods used to negotiate power.  USB Type-C connectors can support the CC wire as the
communications channel and in addition can support VBUS communication but not concurrently.  USB Type-A and USB
Type-B connectors can only support VBUS communication.
Revision:   2.0
Version:    1.3
Release date:  12 January 2017
 
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Offline Tomorokoshi

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #161 on: June 12, 2022, 03:57:41 pm »
I have an actual technical question related to this.

Consider the situation of EMC testing. When a charger ships with the product, the EMC test is done on the combination of the power supply and the product. If no power supply is shipped, the manufacturer is free to choose anything that is within the nominal specifications.

More than once in EMC testing changing the power supply resulted in the difference between passing and failing, sometimes by a quite large margin.

Therefore, it's likely that as manufacturers continue to not provide a power supply, then they will test with a top-quality "quiet" supply that give them, let's say, 10dB margin in some EMC test. If the top-quality supply sells for $20, while the cheap ones are $2, it's likely that a fair percentage of customers will get the "equivalent" cheap supply. This is already a dynamic with cell phone chargers.

What does this mean for EMC testing?
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #162 on: June 12, 2022, 06:40:02 pm »
I have an actual technical question related to this.

Consider the situation of EMC testing. When a charger ships with the product, the EMC test is done on the combination of the power supply and the product. If no power supply is shipped, the manufacturer is free to choose anything that is within the nominal specifications.

More than once in EMC testing changing the power supply resulted in the difference between passing and failing, sometimes by a quite large margin.

Therefore, it's likely that as manufacturers continue to not provide a power supply, then they will test with a top-quality "quiet" supply that give them, let's say, 10dB margin in some EMC test. If the top-quality supply sells for $20, while the cheap ones are $2, it's likely that a fair percentage of customers will get the "equivalent" cheap supply. This is already a dynamic with cell phone chargers.

You're quite right. That's a general problem with devices supporting "compatible" hardware. There is a gray area there.

What does this mean for EMC testing?

Not sure it will change much.
If the manufacturer sells a device with a charger, then this exact combination has to be tested.
If it doesn't provide a charger, then it can use whatever off-the-shelf charger gives the best results during testing.
That's already the case for a majority of manufacturers offering charging through USB, whether it is micro-USB or USB-C.
 
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Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #163 on: June 12, 2022, 08:04:29 pm »
If it doesn't provide a charger, then it can use whatever off-the-shelf charger gives the best results during testing.
That's already the case for a majority of manufacturers offering charging through USB, whether it is micro-USB or USB-C.
So it would be OK for them to use one of those audiofool linear USB supplies with over the top filtering to get unreasonably good EMI test results?
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #164 on: June 12, 2022, 10:24:30 pm »
....because USB-C is the only connector which the PD negotiation works on (it has some extra pins to help).

I haven't checked whether the current versions support this, but the original version of USB-PD was negotiated over Vbus, and therefore worked with standard USB-A plugs.
Nope. You’re probably thinking of the USB BC (battery charging) standard, which does work on type A/B connectors. But USB-PD (which is a separate standard) is USB-C only.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #165 on: June 12, 2022, 10:45:33 pm »
....because USB-C is the only connector which the PD negotiation works on (it has some extra pins to help).

I haven't checked whether the current versions support this, but the original version of USB-PD was negotiated over Vbus, and therefore worked with standard USB-A plugs.
Nope. You’re probably thinking of the USB BC (battery charging) standard, which does work on type A/B connectors. But USB-PD (which is a separate standard) is USB-C only.

The current version perhaps. Please look into the original version, which predates USB-C by several years. If you can find the specification they depublished, even better.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2022, 10:48:11 pm by Monkeh »
 
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Offline PlainName

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #166 on: June 12, 2022, 10:49:01 pm »
....because USB-C is the only connector which the PD negotiation works on (it has some extra pins to help).

I haven't checked whether the current versions support this, but the original version of USB-PD was negotiated over Vbus, and therefore worked with standard USB-A plugs.
Nope. You’re probably thinking of the USB BC (battery charging) standard, which does work on type A/B connectors. But USB-PD (which is a separate standard) is USB-C only.

You are wrong.

I quoted the actual USB PD spec above, and here is some more:

Quote
1.1 Overview
This specification defines how USB Devices can negotiate for more current and/or higher or lower voltages over the
USB cable (using VBUS or CC wire as the communications channel) than are defined in the [USB 2.0], [USB 3.1], [USB
Type-C 1.2] or [USB BC 1.2] specifications.  It allows Devices with greater power requirements than can be met with
today’s specification to get the power they require to operate from VBUS and negotiate with external power sources
(e.g. wall warts).  In addition, it allows a Source and Sink to swap power roles such that a Device could supply power
to the Host.  For example, a display could supply power to a notebook to charge its Battery.

The USB Power Delivery Specification is guided by the following principles:

1) Works seamlessly with legacy USB Devices
2) Compatible with existing spec-compliant USB cables
3) Minimizes potential damage from non-compliant cables (e.g. ‘Y’ cables etc.)
4) Optimized for low-cost implementations

And

Quote
This specification is intended as an extension to the existing [USB 2.0], [USB 3.1], [USB Type-C 1.2] and [USB BC 1.2]
specifications.  It addresses only the elements required to implement USB Power Delivery.  It is targeted at power
supply vendors, manufacturers of [USB 2.0], [USB 3.1], [USB Type-C 1.2] and [USB BC 1.2] Platforms, Devices and
cable assemblies.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #167 on: June 13, 2022, 12:25:33 am »
....because USB-C is the only connector which the PD negotiation works on (it has some extra pins to help).
I haven't checked whether the current versions support this, but the original version of USB-PD was negotiated over Vbus, and therefore worked with standard USB-A plugs.
Nope. You’re probably thinking of the USB BC (battery charging) standard, which does work on type A/B connectors. But USB-PD (which is a separate standard) is USB-C only.
The current version perhaps. Please look into the original version, which predates USB-C by several years. If you can find the specification they depublished, even better.
I dug up the older version standard pretty easily, but (like over in the FIDO thread) there is such a volume of text across all the versions its hard to find any definitive answer to what is going to be mandated, what is optional, and what is no longer current/deprecated.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #168 on: June 13, 2022, 03:16:40 am »
....because USB-C is the only connector which the PD negotiation works on (it has some extra pins to help).

I haven't checked whether the current versions support this, but the original version of USB-PD was negotiated over Vbus, and therefore worked with standard USB-A plugs.
Nope. You’re probably thinking of the USB BC (battery charging) standard, which does work on type A/B connectors. But USB-PD is a separate standard) is USB-C only.

The current version perhaps. Please look into the original version, which predates USB-C by several years. If you can find the specification they depublished, even better.
You’re right. I’ll be honest, I’d forgotten they ever envisioned it to be on the A and B connectors. The fact that, according to the 1.0 standard (which isn’t hard to find at all), it requires hardware keying on the full-size connectors or a capacitor in the micro-B plug —that is, a cable must expressly identify itself as PD-capable — I question whether any such equipment ever shipped. I can’t even find mention of any PD-capable non-C cables, nor photos of what the connectors even look like.

Renesas, in this document, says the following as a segue into the USB-C connector:

Quote
In practice, because all legacy USB connector types up to this point had a ‘hot’ 5V applied all the time from a source, it was not possible to use the bi-directional power flow capability without resorting to a non-USB compliant arrangement.




You are wrong.

I quoted the actual USB PD spec above, and here is some more:

Quote
1.1 Overview
This specification defines how USB Devices can negotiate for more current and/or higher or lower voltages over the
USB cable (using VBUS or CC wire as the communications channel) than are defined in the [USB 2.0], [USB 3.1], [USB
Type-C 1.2] or [USB BC 1.2] specifications.  It allows Devices with greater power requirements than can be met with
today’s specification to get the power they require to operate from VBUS and negotiate with external power sources
(e.g. wall warts).  In addition, it allows a Source and Sink to swap power roles such that a Device could supply power
to the Host.  For example, a display could supply power to a notebook to charge its Battery.

The USB Power Delivery Specification is guided by the following principles:

1) Works seamlessly with legacy USB Devices
2) Compatible with existing spec-compliant USB cables
3) Minimizes potential damage from non-compliant cables (e.g. ‘Y’ cables etc.)
4) Optimized for low-cost implementations

And

Quote
This specification is intended as an extension to the existing [USB 2.0], [USB 3.1], [USB Type-C 1.2] and [USB BC 1.2]
specifications.  It addresses only the elements required to implement USB Power Delivery.  It is targeted at power
supply vendors, manufacturers of [USB 2.0], [USB 3.1], [USB Type-C 1.2] and [USB BC 1.2] Platforms, Devices and
cable assemblies.

None of that contradicts it requiring USB-C, since every single one of those standards is orthogonal to the others, and can be implemented with or without support for the other standards.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2022, 03:20:22 am by tooki »
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #169 on: June 13, 2022, 04:25:54 am »
Perhaps you would share with the class rather than jabbing that it's easily found.
 
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Offline Bassman59

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #170 on: June 13, 2022, 05:04:50 am »
Well our ever not very detailed BBC may have missed a lot of the detail of the law but I did not hear anything about standardising on a charging protocol. That is the sort of nuance that politicians miss out on too and end up making useless laws. If all they do is make a law about the connector they have just wasted their time and tax payer money enacting something that is good as saying that phones must always be charged with electricity.

You do realize that politicians don't actually write the laws themselves? They have staff, lawyers and professional expert advisors who actually do know what is involved. So, really, the law won't be about just the connector. I expect it to run to many pages of technical details.



 

Offline Berni

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #171 on: June 13, 2022, 05:41:36 am »
As far as I am aware their is one fast charging system, it has several power/voltage levels but as there is a protocol used to negotiate this any charger and and phone are a match. I still do not see how mandating a USB-C socket on every phone helps...
....because USB-C is the only connector which the PD negotiation works on (it has some extra pins to help).

Yep the USB-C connector is part of how USB-PD works.

The problem with the higher fast charging rates is that the voltages and currents are becoming so high that arcing can become a significant problem. Especially on the latest standard that supports up to 48V 5A. You can genuinely weld steel using those power levels, or can actually kill a lot of general purpose relays. This is because mechanically disconnecting such a DC power line in can draw a good few millimeters of an arc. This would happen inside the USB connector when you unplug it during charging, the tiny pins would not survive that. If you are particularly unlucky the arc might even move over onto neighboring pins

So for this reason the USB-C connector has the CC1 and CC2 pins that are physically shorter. This way they only come into contact once all the power and ground pins have made contact. When unplugging these pins get interrupted first, telling the host to instantly cut the power and device to instantly stop drawing power, that way once the power pins start separating they are not carrying current anymore, and so no arc forms.

That being said the USB-C connector specification does not strictly require USB-PD support. It is optional much like other features like USB 3.0 or any of the fancy alternate modes for DisplayPort,Thunderbolt..etc. Heck technically it doesn't even require USB 2.0 since one possible use is analog audio, making it a glorified headphone jack.
 
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Offline jeremy

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #172 on: June 13, 2022, 07:34:57 am »
Where phones go the rest follow :)

You are pretty much correct. Some electronics parts are only available is VERY tiny micro BGA packages because mobile phones use them. You cannot get them in larger SMD packages. Quite annoying. No technical reason why, other than phones is where the $$$ and volume are.

Off topic, but there is a reason: flip-chip style CSPs are much cheaper for the manufacturer because there is a much lower packaging cost - no wirebonds, lead frames, overmolding, etc to deal with. “Just” melt some solder balls on the pads and you are done.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #173 on: June 13, 2022, 10:04:10 am »
Quote from: Tooki
None of that contradicts it requiring USB-C, since every single one of those standards is orthogonal to the others, and can be implemented with or without support for the other standards.

You love to unequivocally tell others they are wrong but can't handle it when you are, eh. You said:

Quote from: Tooki
Nope. You’re probably thinking of the USB BC (battery charging) standard, which does work on type A/B connectors. But USB-PD is a separate standard) is USB-C only.

The fact is the spec explicitly says it's designed to work on non-USB-C.  More from the spec:

Quote
The USB Power Delivery specification assumes certified USB cables as defined in this specification or in the [USB 2.0],
[USB 3.1], or [USB Type-C 1.2] specifications.
 
For USB Type-A and USB Type-B connectors the existence of a large number of non-compliant legacy cables,
particularly ‘Y’ and ‘W’ cables are problematic.  These kinds of cables, in combination with the higher voltages that PD
can deliver, have the potential to permanently damage the user’s equipment.  PD defines mechanisms to detect USB
Type-A and USB Type-B PD capable cables.

For USB Type-C connectors, PD uses the certified USB cables and associated detection mechanisms as defined in [USB
Type-C 1.2].

Tooks, you were wrong - PD was specified to work over USB-A and USB-B as well.

 

Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #174 on: June 13, 2022, 10:22:52 am »
Quote from: Tooki
None of that contradicts it requiring USB-C, since every single one of those standards is orthogonal to the others, and can be implemented with or without support for the other standards.

You love to unequivocally tell others they are wrong but can't handle it when you are, eh. You said:
And you conveniently just ignore that I replied to the two of you who pointed out my error:

You’re right. I’ll be honest, I’d forgotten they ever envisioned it to be on the A and B connectors. The fact that, according to the 1.0 standard (which isn’t hard to find at all), it requires hardware keying on the full-size connectors or a capacitor in the micro-B plug —that is, a cable must expressly identify itself as PD-capable — I question whether any such equipment ever shipped. I can’t even find mention of any PD-capable non-C cables, nor photos of what the connectors even look like.
So not only can I “handle” it, I readily admit when I’m wrong.

My statement that the PD standard is orthogonal to the other standards you cited is correct.
 


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