Author Topic: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices  (Read 66768 times)

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Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #375 on: September 07, 2022, 06:15:34 am »
Perhaps a better solution would be the provide replacements are a good price. Sure, they won't price out the fakers but if it's close enough most punters would opt for genuine rather than after-market. The ones that really must save the last penny... well,  nothing's going to persuade them anyway.
This!! I really don’t think companies should consider safety-relevant spare parts as profit centers.

I liked how some years ago, after a girl got electrocuted while using a faulty third-party USB charger on her iPhone (and a few other incidents with third party chargers), Apple ran a campaign where you could trade in a third party charger and get a genuine Apple one for $10. Of course, I wish they just sold them for $10 to begin with, precisely to disincentivize people from buying junk.
 
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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #376 on: September 07, 2022, 06:21:38 am »
Counterfeit batteries is a straw man. If manufacturers were genuinely worried about being sued because the customer fitted fake batteries, then why are there still so many devices which run on alkaline cells? It's easy to prove the customer fitted third party batteries. A simple code printed on the OEM battery (this can be in a discrete place, in invisible ink) would prove that.
When is the last time you heard about an alkaline battery turning into a flamethrower in someone’s pocket? The safety issue is specific to lithium ion batteries.
All the horror stories I've heard were from unprotected batteries.

There is the middle ground of standard shaped/sized protected lithium batteries like is done with cameras, they dont need vendor lock in or authentication.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #377 on: September 07, 2022, 09:09:53 am »
All the horror stories I've heard were from unprotected batteries.

There is the middle ground of standard shaped/sized protected lithium batteries like is done with cameras, they dont need vendor lock in or authentication.
Yes, they do, because they’re exactly the batteries I’m talking about. Phones and cameras don’t use unprotected 18650 cells. They use protected rectangular battery packs. And there have been many cases of those things catching on fire. Mostly counterfeits.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #378 on: September 07, 2022, 12:36:46 pm »
Quote
TLDR - one type of battery for all their products and the batteries have telemetry integrated who tracks

That is atrocious. No doubt they can get away with it because they are high-end tools and 'people' tend not to buy them - their companies do, and companies don't care about the privacy implications (in fact, they would love the anti-theft element). But the problem is that high-end stuff trickles down and pretty soon it will be the norm for stuff you'll buy from Aldi and Lidl, and by then it's too late to be able to take a stance against it.
 

Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #379 on: September 07, 2022, 01:28:09 pm »
Quote
TLDR - one type of battery for all their products and the batteries have telemetry integrated who tracks

That is atrocious. No doubt they can get away with it because they are high-end tools and 'people' tend not to buy them - their companies do, and companies don't care about the privacy implications (in fact, they would love the anti-theft element). But the problem is that high-end stuff trickles down and pretty soon it will be the norm for stuff you'll buy from Aldi and Lidl, and by then it's too late to be able to take a stance against it.

Not even that for me the biggest gripe is they can impose limits in the battery a là IOS Battery Gate - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batterygate

So basically reduce the battery usage time before shutdown because the battery been already 5 years in use and should be replaced (for example). And then you have cases of people who own tools with battery and rarely use them enough for the battery to even get more than 200 cycles in those 5 years, like most hobby household man.

200 cycles in a lithium battery is absolutely nothing.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #380 on: September 07, 2022, 02:29:06 pm »
That too.
 

Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #381 on: September 07, 2022, 03:09:17 pm »
It's true that brands need to fight dangerous counterfeits coming from whatever country build them.

It's also true that counterfeits are getting better and better, fooling even the most informed person (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/mechanical-engineering/how-to-spot-fake-mitutoyo-calipers/ as an example of many others).

One of the ways companies have is lower prices to make the OEM and counterfeit market less appealing, although it's a hard battle to fight in some regions of the world where the monthly income is way lower than the standard developed world.

Even in the developed world is hard with the inflation and non increase of salaries compared with the cost of life.

What can it be done? All measures can be counter with reasons and justifications in the economic or political scope (as import restrictions as example).

A program of exchange of older equipment for new one at a lower cost? That could work but not only would need companies to allocate resources to such program as it could be abused - Snap On exchange program is one it comes to my mind and have first hand experience where people buy damaged tools on eBay to then go the Snap On van to exchange for a new one.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #382 on: September 07, 2022, 03:21:50 pm »
Quote
Snap On exchange program is one it comes to my mind and have first hand experience where people buy damaged tools on eBay to then go the Snap On van to exchange for a new one.

Don't see the problem. If they warranty the tool for life then it should be exchangeable by anyone. AFAIK they don't warrant that a tool will become trash merely because a different pair of hands touched it.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #383 on: September 07, 2022, 04:15:37 pm »
Counterfeit batteries is a straw man. If manufacturers were genuinely worried about being sued because the customer fitted fake batteries, then why are there still so many devices which run on alkaline cells? It's easy to prove the customer fitted third party batteries. A simple code printed on the OEM battery (this can be in a discrete place, in invisible ink) would prove that.
When is the last time you heard about an alkaline battery turning into a flamethrower in someone’s pocket? The safety issue is specific to lithium ion batteries.

And yyyyeah, counterfeiters have been cloning batteries, including the authenticity holograms, for years. A simple printed code won’t do. Hence using authentication ICs.
Just put serial numbers on the batteries which match the product.

Battery protection can be integrated into the device, so even if the battery isn't protected, it's no big deal.

It's all an excuse to rip people off. I'd rather be able to replace the batteries, with decent third party ones, rather than having to dump the device or pay an absorbent price to the manufacturer.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #384 on: September 07, 2022, 04:56:31 pm »
Battery protection can be integrated into the device, so even if the battery isn't protected, it's no big deal.
You can do that, but it can’t protect against everything. Battery protection requires knowing certain battery parameters, and those may not reliable in a counterfeit battery.

And some of the… unplanned energetic flame releases happened in situations where a protection circuit can’t do anything: with the device in someone’s pocket, idle. Not in use, not being charged. (Again, talking about phones and cameras, not vape pens and other lithium ion horrors.)
 

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #385 on: September 08, 2022, 02:42:43 am »
All the horror stories I've heard were from unprotected batteries.

There is the middle ground of standard shaped/sized protected lithium batteries like is done with cameras, they dont need vendor lock in or authentication.
Yes, they do, because they’re exactly the batteries I’m talking about. Phones and cameras don’t use unprotected 18650 cells. They use protected rectangular battery packs. And there have been many cases of those things catching on fire. Mostly counterfeits.
Phones? they pretty much all moved to internally captive (non user serviceable) unprotected prismatic/pouch cells.
 

Offline blacksheeplogic

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #386 on: September 08, 2022, 05:22:12 am »
It's all an excuse to rip people off. I'd rather be able to replace the batteries, with decent third party ones, rather than having to dump the device or pay an absorbent price to the manufacturer.

I have an issue with availability as well. I own devices I can no longer get replacement batteries for except from the aftermarket.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #387 on: September 08, 2022, 05:39:24 am »
All the horror stories I've heard were from unprotected batteries.

There is the middle ground of standard shaped/sized protected lithium batteries like is done with cameras, they dont need vendor lock in or authentication.
Yes, they do, because they’re exactly the batteries I’m talking about. Phones and cameras don’t use unprotected 18650 cells. They use protected rectangular battery packs. And there have been many cases of those things catching on fire. Mostly counterfeits.
Phones? they pretty much all moved to internally captive (non user serviceable) unprotected prismatic/pouch cells.
Yep, and counterfeit batteries is one (not the only) reason why.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #388 on: September 08, 2022, 08:54:37 am »
Quote
Yep, and counterfeit batteries is one (not the only) reason why.

I'd say it's one excuse why.
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #389 on: September 08, 2022, 05:52:20 pm »
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Yep, and counterfeit batteries is one (not the only) reason why.

I'd say it's one excuse why.
Of course you would, since you'd already dismissed the explanation. [Edit: my bad, that wasn't you.] Of course, in reality there's a difference between an excuse and an explanation, though many people cry "excuse!" just because they don't like or understand the explanations.

The fact is, companies weigh decisions based on complex factors, while people choose to actively ignore the factors they don't care about, deriding them as BS or whatever, even if they were significant or even deciding factors to the decision maker.

But if you were a multinational company with legal exposure worldwide, would you take the risk of getting sued when some family dies in a house fire caused by a crappy third party battery? Or will your lawyers say "lock that shit down"? Liability is a huge, huge issue, and companies have to make sure they avoid anything that could be considered negligence, as well as things that ambulance chasers and the media will twist into the appearance of negligence in the eyes of the public -- or a jury.

Just because you personally are willing to take a calculated risk with a third-party battery or charger doesn't mean most people should. And just because you're willing to take that risk doesn't mean the manufacturer should be obligated to make it easy for you.

I'm not saying that locking it down is always the right answer. But I can absolutely understand why companies do it.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2022, 06:45:40 pm by tooki »
 
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Offline PlainName

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #390 on: September 08, 2022, 06:09:09 pm »
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Yep, and counterfeit batteries is one (not the only) reason why.

I'd say it's one excuse why.
Of course you would, since you'd already dismissed the explanation.

Making up stuff again, Tooki? I have not 'already dismissed the explanation' and that was my first comment on the subject.

'Sok, much as it would be the right thing to do, I know you won't apologise.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #391 on: September 08, 2022, 06:23:36 pm »
I'm not saying that locking it down is always the right answer. But I can absolutely understand why companies do it.

Same opinion here, which is why, as a customer, I do want to be able to repair/change batteries/whatever at will, but I also fully understand what kind of rabbit hole it can be for a company.

And particularly for Li-ion batteries. Those infamous batteries are a total plague (yes I'm just barely exaggerating). They are inherently unsafe and push manufacturers to take a lot of precautions. It's just that we haven't found anything safer, as low-cost and with as much energy density than those yet. And they are OK(ish) if you handle them right.
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #392 on: September 08, 2022, 06:44:36 pm »
Quote
Yep, and counterfeit batteries is one (not the only) reason why.

I'd say it's one excuse why.
Of course you would, since you'd already dismissed the explanation.

Making up stuff again, Tooki? I have not 'already dismissed the explanation' and that was my first comment on the subject.

'Sok, much as it would be the right thing to do, I know you won't apologise.
On the contrary. My mistake, I did confuse your reply and an earlier one when scrolling. I apologize, despite your certainty that I wouldn't. (I actually make a point of owning up to my errors when made aware of them, and have apologized on these forums on numerous occasions. I also usually go back and mark -- but don't delete -- the incorrect statement in my post, as I've done above.)

Of course, you could have just said "This is my first comment on the subject, are you sure you weren't thinking of someone else?" instead of the response you chose. I am opinionated, but I am not the asshole you clearly think I am.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2022, 11:40:22 am by tooki »
 
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Offline PlainName

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #393 on: September 08, 2022, 07:03:26 pm »
Thank you.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #394 on: September 09, 2022, 11:42:50 pm »
[...]
I'm not saying that locking it down is always the right answer. But I can absolutely understand why companies do it.

Why doesn't the same thinking apply to laptops, or car batteries, or lantern/torch batteries, etc. etc. etc.?   Historically, we are used to be able to replace batteries with any brand we like, in most products.   It seems a stretch to argue that there is any benefit to the consumer for overpaying for wear parts such as batteries, ports, etc.

 

Offline madires

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #395 on: September 10, 2022, 10:27:01 am »
But if you were a multinational company with legal exposure worldwide, would you take the risk of getting sued when some family dies in a house fire caused by a crappy third party battery? Or will your lawyers say "lock that shit down"? Liability is a huge, huge issue, and companies have to make sure they avoid anything that could be considered negligence, as well as things that ambulance chasers and the media will twist into the appearance of negligence in the eyes of the public -- or a jury.

In this case I wonder why consumers are still allowed to use any charger they like. There have been multiple incidents with cheap and dangerous chargers. Sorry, it's only about profit maximization and design. The liability argument is a red herring. Another example: brake pads for your car. Do you have to get them replaced with new ones from the car manufacturer at a licenced dealership/garage? Or can you go to any garage you like and get brake pads from whatever brand available? Or even swap them yourself?

 

Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #396 on: September 10, 2022, 12:39:34 pm »
[...]
I'm not saying that locking it down is always the right answer. But I can absolutely understand why companies do it.

Why doesn't the same thinking apply to laptops, or car batteries, or lantern/torch batteries, etc. etc. etc.?   Historically, we are used to be able to replace batteries with any brand we like, in most products.   It seems a stretch to argue that there is any benefit to the consumer for overpaying for wear parts such as batteries, ports, etc.
I’d say ubiquity of phones, and risk: we use the highest-density, most unstable lithium batteries in phones due to size and weight. It’s easy to make a lithium cell that’s more robust and can tolerate more abuse, but that makes them hold less energy and makes them physically larger due to armoring. (Like in cylindrical cells or battery packs with hard shells.)

The original manufacturer can carefully design a product around a temperamental lipo battery. Third parties may get it right, but many won’t.

With that said, I don’t think the other products you mention are actually good counterexamples.

Until modern purely-electric cars, car batteries have been simple lead acid affairs, where nothing bad is likely to happen if the battery goes bad. (And in modern all-electric cars, the lithium battery packs are locked down.)
Lantern batteries are historically, again, not lithium rechargeables, but alkaline or carbon zinc cells, again not hazardous. Rechargeable flashlights often don’t have removable batteries.

Laptop batteries generally have been locked down. Third parties either carefully rebuilt original ones, or reverse-engineered the authentication.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #397 on: September 10, 2022, 12:54:48 pm »
In this case I wonder why consumers are still allowed to use any charger they like. There have been multiple incidents with cheap and dangerous chargers.
Probably because there’s still a layer of protection (in the charger and power management ICs inside the phone) that will prevent certain charger failures (like overvoltage) from actually reaching the battery.

But yeah, some charger failures (like isolation failure between primary and secondary) have been deadly, and one could argue that it would have been smarter to lock down chargers more.

Sorry, it's only about profit maximization and design.
That’s one factor in the decision, for sure. Never said it wasn’t. But it’s definitely not the only factor.

The liability argument is a red herring.
No, it definitely isn’t. Have you somehow not noticed how litigious people are, e.g. in USA? If someone gets injured or killed, and something exists that the manufacturer could have done but didn’t, they’re open for a lawsuit. It doesn’t mean the plaintiff will win. It doesn’t mean the argument is reasonable. But a lawsuit costs time and money, and in the case of companies, even if they win, it can easily happen that public opinion turns on them. (Like Ford with the Pinto: Ford’s image suffered tremendously from the Pinto lawsuits, even though in the end, it was shown that the Pinto was no more likely to catch fire in a rear-end collision than any competing small car.)

In the end, a company’s lawyers (and the liability insurance companies who will be paying out if damage is awarded) will perform careful risk analyses which will determine which options are even on the table. Other factors will then decide which of those options to go with.

Another example: brake pads for your car. Do you have to get them replaced with new ones from the car manufacturer at a licenced dealership/garage? Or can you go to any garage you like and get brake pads from whatever brand available? Or even swap them yourself?
Have you not noticed that this is exactly the direction car repairs have been going?

But realistically, your car has 4 brakes operated by at least two different mechanisms. So one brake pad failing isn’t likely to cause immediate danger.

The other thing is that in most cases where car parts have been to blame for harm or injury, it’s been clearly obvious who is to blame.

That’s a lot harder in a cellphone that’s been burnt to a crisp in its battery fire.
 

Offline Miyuki

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #398 on: September 10, 2022, 02:30:18 pm »
Another example: brake pads for your car. Do you have to get them replaced with new ones from the car manufacturer at a licenced dealership/garage? Or can you go to any garage you like and get brake pads from whatever brand available? Or even swap them yourself?
Have you not noticed that this is exactly the direction car repairs have been going?

But realistically, your car has 4 brakes operated by at least two different mechanisms. So one brake pad failing isn’t likely to cause immediate danger.

The other thing is that in most cases where car parts have been to blame for harm or injury, it’s been clearly obvious who is to blame.

That’s a lot harder in a cellphone that’s been burnt to a crisp in its battery fire.
Brake pads are a bad example, they are so simple to manufacture to work. It can be hard to make them be good, but the essential operation is super simple.
But look at the catalytic converters and particular filters. You can clearly see the market full of aftermarket and counterfeited parts that pretend to work but just do not work.
In countries where cars have mandatory checkups and measures, this is to some extent limited (even when in many places a bribe to a measuring technician is cheaper than good catalytic converter plenty of people will choose this alternative)
And in countries without those inspections, plenty of people will just run without them and just harm all the people without any concerns
Electronics have no inspections (and even when they should have some safety standards they are commonly fake because no one bothers with cheap stuff)
People are just irresponsible, they will be happily buying the cheapest batteries from Aliexpress till their house will burn down and they will cry and want the manufacturers of their phones and laptops to pay them for a new house
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #399 on: September 11, 2022, 04:27:48 pm »
But if you were a multinational company with legal exposure worldwide, would you take the risk of getting sued when some family dies in a house fire caused by a crappy third party battery? Or will your lawyers say "lock that shit down"? Liability is a huge, huge issue, and companies have to make sure they avoid anything that could be considered negligence, as well as things that ambulance chasers and the media will twist into the appearance of negligence in the eyes of the public -- or a jury.

In this case I wonder why consumers are still allowed to use any charger they like. There have been multiple incidents with cheap and dangerous chargers. Sorry, it's only about profit maximization and design. The liability argument is a red herring. Another example: brake pads for your car. Do you have to get them replaced with new ones from the car manufacturer at a licenced dealership/garage? Or can you go to any garage you like and get brake pads from whatever brand available? Or even swap them yourself?


There situation with the batteries is cartel-like...   For example, if one car manufacturer decided to make brake pads non-user-serviceable,  that brand would probably lose sales as word got round.   But if all the manufacturers do the same thing at the same time...    they can claim this is an improvement that they are all doing, and the customer won't have a choice as nobody sells cars with replaceable brake pads!
 


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