Author Topic: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices  (Read 66736 times)

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Offline PlainName

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #475 on: October 30, 2022, 10:09:50 pm »
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Do you need mommy EU to help you?

Sometimes, yes. Just look at big things that some PTB has mandated: plugs, electricity supply, car safety, glasses prescriptions, housing codes, trade descriptions, broadband protocols, there are many!

Left to their own devices, players in the market will tend to do their own thing and we'd be left with many incompatible things. The question is not whether there should be a higher authority enforcing compatibility, but what that authority should be concerned with. The wallwart field was crying out for someone to do this, but no-one did. Now they have and we're all the better for it. It may not have saved anything environmental (good things often cost in some way, you know) but we are better off because of it.

 
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Offline Miyuki

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #476 on: November 01, 2022, 07:01:07 pm »
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3. In so far as they are capable of being recharged via wired charging at voltages higher
than 5 volts, currents higher than 3 amperes or powers higher than 15 watts, the
categories or classes of radio equipment referred to in point 1 letters a) to m) shall:

(a) incorporate the USB Power Delivery, as described in the standard EN IEC 62680-1-
2:2021 ‘Universal serial bus interfaces for data and power - Part 1-2: Common
components - USB Power Delivery specification’;

(b) ensure that any additional charging protocol allows the full functionality of the USB
Power Delivery referred to in point (a), irrespective of the charging device used

Yep it looks like you have to have USB-PD if you draw more than 15W, so that is well done. You are still allowed to have extra proprietary high power modes, but they still have to retain compatibility with USB-PD.


The slightly worrying thing is that this would require all laptops under 100W to use USB-C for charging (Okay those are ultralights anyway). However it also says that once 240W USB-PD becomes mature the law should be bumped up to there. This would now include the big chonky gaming/workstration laptops. Not sure if it is a good idea to have those sort of powers running trough the tiny connectors continuously (especially as these laptops get really hot too) while requiring the motherboards power input circuitry to handle 240W from a input voltage range of 5V to 48V. These boatanchor laptops could not change up any usable amount from anything less than 30W
Using USB-C for a laptop is a terrible idea. Even small barrel jacks in some smaller laptops have a short life. And the hard soldered end in the laptop ruins the board.
USB-C is even more fragile than a simple jack.
Currently, thankfully laptops keep both connectors.
And I like how Lenovo solved it with a docking cable, where you have this double cable. It can work over Thunderbolt/USB alone but with limited power.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #477 on: November 01, 2022, 07:18:44 pm »
And the hard soldered end in the laptop ruins the board.

For many years all decent laptops have had the charging port off the board for easier replacement. There's no reason at all that can't be done with USB-C.

Anyway, nobody's requiring the loss of a dedicated charging port - only the provision of a USB-C port capable of charging as a universal option.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2022, 07:23:03 pm by Monkeh »
 
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #478 on: November 01, 2022, 07:35:56 pm »
And the hard soldered end in the laptop ruins the board.

For many years all decent laptops have had the charging port off the board for easier replacement. There's no reason at all that can't be done with USB-C.

There is: handling USB-C is much more complex than handling a DC input. So that requires dedicated ICs, multi-layer routing, etc. And if the port (which is what users will expect) can be used for data as well, then it must also be connected to the motherboard's chipset. All that would make a separate board much harder and more expensive.

Are you really comparing a simple board with a DC barrel jack and maybe some ESD diodes with what is required to handle USB-C power delivery? Yeah. :popcorn:
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #479 on: November 01, 2022, 07:53:28 pm »
And the hard soldered end in the laptop ruins the board.

For many years all decent laptops have had the charging port off the board for easier replacement. There's no reason at all that can't be done with USB-C.

There is: handling USB-C is much more complex than handling a DC input. So that requires dedicated ICs, multi-layer routing, etc. And if the port (which is what users will expect) can be used for data as well, then it must also be connected to the motherboard's chipset. All that would make a separate board much harder and more expensive.

Are you really comparing a simple board with a DC barrel jack and maybe some ESD diodes with what is required to handle USB-C power delivery? Yeah. :popcorn:

Doesn't have to be co-located with the connector. What comes in on a cable can carry on in a cable, leaving a low cost module to replace if it suffers mechanical damage.

Laptops have done this for years with USB, including 3.0, and VGA, DVI, HDMI, DP, ethernet, analog audio..
 

Offline bson

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #480 on: November 01, 2022, 08:15:24 pm »
On the other end of the Lightning cable, for now. ;)
"Under the new rules, consumers will no longer need a different charging device and cable every time they purchase a new device..."

Clearly, the law will dictate a USB-C port, not a custom cable.  This means Apple will have to retrofit a connector to the Apple Watch to sell it in the EU; can't just use a magnetic charging "cable" (obviously it's more than just a cable - and this is why they won't be permitted).

And for the above to be true, a laptop will need to be able to charge off any USB charger, even a tiny phone or car one.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #481 on: November 01, 2022, 08:16:29 pm »
On the other end of the Lightning cable, for now. ;)
"Under the new rules, consumers will no longer need a different charging device and cable every time they purchase a new device..."

Clearly, the law will dictate a USB-C port, not a custom cable.

And for the above to be true, a laptop will need to be able to charge off any USB charger, even a tiny phone or car one.

Not the case. No requirement to operate off an impractically underpowered supply is made.
 

Offline bson

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #482 on: November 01, 2022, 08:18:03 pm »
Not the case. No requirement to operate off an impractically underpowered supply is made.
Again, "Under the new rules, consumers will no longer need a different charging device and cable every time they purchase a new device..."
That's their language, not mine.
If you have to purchase a laptop charger with your laptop and can't use your phone charger, then the above isn't true.

 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #483 on: November 01, 2022, 08:31:27 pm »
Not the case. No requirement to operate off an impractically underpowered supply is made.
Again, "Under the new rules, consumers will no longer need a different charging device and cable every time they purchase a new device..."
That's their language, not mine.
If you have to purchase a laptop charger with your laptop and can't use your phone charger, then the above isn't true.

It's quite the logical leap to expect an existing 5V or 9V charger to usefully supply a laptop.

Oh, and no, you don't need to add a connector if you don't already have one - it explicitly states it applies to devices with a charging port.
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #484 on: November 01, 2022, 10:15:51 pm »
And the hard soldered end in the laptop ruins the board.

For many years all decent laptops have had the charging port off the board for easier replacement. There's no reason at all that can't be done with USB-C.

There is: handling USB-C is much more complex than handling a DC input. So that requires dedicated ICs, multi-layer routing, etc. And if the port (which is what users will expect) can be used for data as well, then it must also be connected to the motherboard's chipset. All that would make a separate board much harder and more expensive.

Are you really comparing a simple board with a DC barrel jack and maybe some ESD diodes with what is required to handle USB-C power delivery? Yeah. :popcorn:
There are 6 pin power only USB-C connectors. Being compliant with the standard only requires 2 resistors.
Or if you want PD, then it's an extra IC which is about the complexity of a STM8.
And the hard soldered end in the laptop ruins the board.

For many years all decent laptops have had the charging port off the board for easier replacement. There's no reason at all that can't be done with USB-C.

Anyway, nobody's requiring the loss of a dedicated charging port - only the provision of a USB-C port capable of charging as a universal option.
Plus, all the laptops I use have PD charging on more than one port. So it's even redundant, making it more likely there is a working port.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #485 on: November 03, 2022, 03:43:40 pm »
I was over at the Apple site looking at one of the laptops and they seem to use a magnetically attached charging cable.  This will eliminate the damage caused to the laptop should the power cord be pulled sideways or the laptop be pulled off the table.  I guess the EU won't accept it...

I'm still waiting for USB-D connectors (yet to be invented) to force this stupid decision up a couple of notches.

Actually, I see adapters as the solution to all of this nonsense.  There are adapters from Mini and Micro to C and there will clearly be a Lightning to C adapter.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #486 on: November 03, 2022, 03:48:38 pm »
Not the case. No requirement to operate off an impractically underpowered supply is made.
Again, "Under the new rules, consumers will no longer need a different charging device and cable every time they purchase a new device..."
That's their language, not mine.
If you have to purchase a laptop charger with your laptop and can't use your phone charger, then the above isn't true.

The 145 Watt Macbook Pro charger is going to be a bit of overkill for a cell phone.  A 5 Watt cell phone charger is going to be useless for the laptop.  This is all just regulation because they can.  It remains to be seen how many companies dance to the tune or just ship adapters.
 
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Offline Monkeh

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #487 on: November 03, 2022, 03:49:42 pm »
Not the case. No requirement to operate off an impractically underpowered supply is made.
Again, "Under the new rules, consumers will no longer need a different charging device and cable every time they purchase a new device..."
That's their language, not mine.
If you have to purchase a laptop charger with your laptop and can't use your phone charger, then the above isn't true.

The 145 Watt Macbook Pro charger is going to be a bit of overkill for a cell phone.

It's a bit of overkill 99% of the time it's connected to a Macbook.

Quote
It remains to be seen how many companies dance to the tune or just ship adapters.

None, because if you were to pay attention that's not an option. Which is the point.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #488 on: November 03, 2022, 06:29:51 pm »
Technocratic centralized regulation on such topics (again not strictly safety related, for which I have no problem with) is bullshit and it never yields anything good. The discussion in this thread has pointed out many flaws and I'm sure we haven't thought of them all yet. Have we learned nothing from the USSR? Holy crap.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #489 on: November 05, 2022, 04:35:05 pm »
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #490 on: November 10, 2022, 08:07:45 pm »
Other than his mistaken claims of Apple “loving” proprietary tech in USB-C cables (which is categorically untrue; Apple doesn’t do anything proprietary with its USB-C interfaces or cables), I wholeheartedly agree with that video’s sentiments. There’s something to be said for mechanical keying of specific configurations…
 
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Offline Monkeh

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #491 on: November 10, 2022, 11:07:18 pm »
(which is categorically untrue; Apple doesn’t do anything proprietary with its USB-C interfaces or cables)

Yet.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #492 on: November 12, 2022, 03:31:27 pm »
(which is categorically untrue; Apple doesn’t do anything proprietary with its USB-C interfaces or cables)

Yet.
What an idiotic argument. Apple has been using USB-C since 2017, always adhering to the latest version of the standard at the time of release.* Why would they start doing weird shenanigans now?

Apple has never been afraid to create a custom standard if existing ones don’t do what they want, but it’s not something they do gratuitously, contrary to the claims of the anti-Apple brigade, which likes to push narratives to make Apple look bad, wholly divorced from any factual basis.

It’s cheaper and easier to use standards when possible, and Apple knows this. That’s why Apple embraced USB back in 1998, ditching its old ports. Even before that, not everything was proprietary: Apple widely used PCI (Intel) and NuBus (Texas Instruments) expansion slots, Ethernet (Xerox et al), SCSI (Shugart), and PC-standard RAM modules. Mac serial ports used a different connnector, but supported RS-422 and RS-232 (with RS-422 being the preferred mode due to its much higher speeds).

Apple sometimes releases its designs to become industry standards, like with FireWire, mini-DisplayPort, and mDNS.

Sometimes, their efforts to create industry standards are scuttled by outside factors, like with FaceTime, which was supposed to go open, but then got saddled with lawsuits from patent holders claiming it violated their patents.

There was nothing comparable to Lightning when Lightning was released. Most phones then used micro-USB, which didn’t do what Apple wanted.



*I add this qualifier because of the 2017 12” MacBook, which was designed to the preliminary USB-PD standard that was the latest at the time. Unfortunately, when the final USB-PD standard was published, it actually changed some voltages, which is why the 12” MacBook, and the chargers Apple made for it, aren’t completely compliant with the final USB-PD standard. But it wasn’t gratuitous incompatibility, but a good-faith effort to follow the preliminary standard, which presumably hadn’t been expected to change so late in the development process.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #493 on: November 12, 2022, 03:56:13 pm »
(which is categorically untrue; Apple doesn’t do anything proprietary with its USB-C interfaces or cables)

Yet.
What an idiotic argument. Apple has been using USB-C since 2017, always adhering to the latest version of the standard at the time of release.* Why would they start doing weird shenanigans now?

It's not really an argument, I'm just poking fun at Apple. That and I'll never dismiss the possibility of any company, Apple or otherwise, choosing to take the wrong route in search of perceived profits - Dymo, anyone?
 
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Offline Halcyon

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #494 on: November 13, 2022, 01:50:39 am »


I know this sounds petty, but I lost interest after he mixed up Gigabytes and Gigabits.
 
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Offline eti

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #495 on: November 13, 2022, 02:03:37 am »


I know this sounds petty, but I lost interest after he mixed up Gigabytes and Gigabits.

Similarly, were it not for the fact that they were "reviewing" a smartphone (a not particularly technically or academically challenging assignment, based on HOW many "reviewers" do so), it amuses me to no end that people say "Milliamps" when it's "mAh" they actually mean. Were they reviewing boats or planes - an area where the average viewer, I would think, had slightly higher intelligence and were more informed, I'd say they'd get away with it for not very long at all. Smartphone users (the public) just swallow this stuff down and are none the wiser - nor do I expect em to be - but if put yourself in a position of "reviewer", PLEASE, its ONE tiny piece of BASIC terminology - not that hard to learn...
 

Offline Karel

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Offline Sherlock Holmes

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #497 on: December 11, 2022, 03:11:04 pm »
What's Apple's problem anyway, why are they playing victim?

USB-C (USB 3) handles up to 640 Mbps, Apple's (effectively USB 2) is 480 Mbps.

iPad pro already uses USB-C, USB offers greater power delivery.

The "lightning" cables (like most things Apple) are stupid prices.

Apple are and always have been about presentation rather than functionality, external design rather than internal.




« Last Edit: December 11, 2022, 03:13:07 pm by Sherlock Holmes »
“When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.” ~ Arthur Conan Doyle, The Case-Book of Sherlock Holmes
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #498 on: December 12, 2022, 02:11:29 am »
What's Apple's problem anyway, why are they playing victim?

USB-C (USB 3) handles up to 640 Mbps, Apple's (effectively USB 2) is 480 Mbps.

iPad pro already uses USB-C, USB offers greater power delivery.

The "lightning" cables (like most things Apple) are stupid prices.

Apple are and always have been about presentation rather than functionality, external design rather than internal.

"The "lightning" cables (like most things Apple) are stupid prices."  -  that's your explanation right there, it's all about the money...

 
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Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #499 on: December 13, 2022, 09:45:07 am »
What's Apple's problem anyway, why are they playing victim?
Aaaand I can already see we’ll be dealing with a reality-avoiding Apple hater.

USB-C (USB 3) handles up to 640 Mbps, Apple's (effectively USB 2) is 480 Mbps.
You need to read up on USB-C anew.

USB-C can, but does not have to be, USB 3, and USB 3 can be up to 20Gbps. USB-C can also be USB 4 (40Gbps), Thunderbolt 3 or 4 (also 40Gbps), or just USB 2 (480Mbps).

iPad pro already uses USB-C, USB offers greater power delivery.
Correct. As an iPad Pro owner, I’d love to see iPhone move to USB-C so I can once again use the same cables for my phone, tablet, and earbuds.

The "lightning" cables (like most things Apple) are stupid prices.
Utter nonsense. Lightning cables don’t cost any more than the old Dock connector cables it replaced, nor any more than the USB-C cables that are replacing Lightning.

Apple are and always have been about presentation rather than functionality, external design rather than internal.
And there we have it, more reality-avoiding Apple hatred. The reason Apple has been so spectacularly successful is that beneath the style, there is real substance. Their products work well — really well — and that’s why people buy them. And that’s always been the reason people buy them. 
 


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