EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
General => General Technical Chat => Topic started by: VK3DRB on June 08, 2022, 02:36:37 am
-
New devices that don't have USB type C charging ports will be banned from the EU in a couple of years. It looks like USB-C will be the world standard in due course, thanks to the EU.
As a result, those doing design like I do will be more convinced to go USB-C from on on, rather than opting for micro USB. The directive will be under the EU's notorious Radio Emissions Directive (CE RED). Apple is protesting that enforcing USB-C will stifle innovation.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20220603IPR32196/deal-on-common-charger-reducing-hassle-for-consumers-and-curbing-e-waste (https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20220603IPR32196/deal-on-common-charger-reducing-hassle-for-consumers-and-curbing-e-waste)
Is this a case of too much government control of our technology, or a commonsense approach to fixing a problem?
Good idea or not?
-
Good, more standardisation, better interoperability, less lock-in, less duplication, less e-waste.
I mean you can debate if USB-C is the right connector, but it's the connector we have that can meet the requirements.
Now if they could just mandate batteries that can be replaced with no more tools than a precision screwdriver, that would be great.
-
I'm for standardization. We'll have to see how hard coding USB-C specifically plays out in a long term, but it would be a while before it gets obsolete.
They talk about charging and it is not clear how it relates to data transfer. There is much more variability with USB-C in that respect. I switched to USB-C for all my stuff and it works fine for USB 2.0-only stuff, which still covers a lot of use cases. But some applications require high bandwidth transfers, and there may be issues here. But on the other hand, everyone would be forced to figure out how to make USB-C work instead of inventing a new thing that is 90% the same as the old thing.
-
I'm for standardization too, but not for politics meddling with much anything other than safety, so I have mixed feelings about this.
-
I don't like bans, this is definitely one of those cases where I would prefer to let the free market decide. I still have not adopted USB-C and find it annoying when stuff uses that connector as I have SO much older USB 2.0 and 3.0 stuff around. I'm really not a fan, the connector is fragile and gets loose and sloppy after a while and electrically it tries to be too many different things and it is a confusing mess of partial implementations.
-
I see the move as overwhelmingly positive. I don't see how this differs too much from standardising AC power connectors and sockets.
-
Ok, fine, so there would be a mandated and endorsed standardized connector and data interlink format. How does that square with:
https://www.usb.org/logo-license (https://www.usb.org/logo-license)
https://www.usb.org/getting-vendor-id (https://www.usb.org/getting-vendor-id)
And other such additional costs? And here the EU was all concerned about Explorer and Google "taking over" the market due to no competition and barrier to entry.
-
Where are we to get a bunch of USB-C ports for these devices? USB-C hubs with a bunch of USB-C ports still don't exist.
-
Ok, fine, so there would be a mandated and endorsed standardized connector and data interlink format. How does that square with:
https://www.usb.org/logo-license (https://www.usb.org/logo-license)
https://www.usb.org/getting-vendor-id (https://www.usb.org/getting-vendor-id)
And other such additional costs? And here the EU was all concerned about Explorer and Google "taking over" the market due to no competition and barrier to entry.
You do not have to have a USB logo license nor a vendor ID to place a port in compliance with the IEC specification on a device for charging.
Where are we to get a bunch of USB-C ports for these devices? USB-C hubs with a bunch of USB-C ports still don't exist.
The other end of the charging solution does not need to be USB-C.
-
Where are we to get a bunch of USB-C ports for these devices? USB-C hubs with a bunch of USB-C ports still don't exist.
USB-C docks and hubs are fairly common. I've use the OWC branded ones. For example: https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/owc-thunderbolt-hub
-
I see the move as overwhelmingly positive. I don't see how this differs too much from standardising AC power connectors and sockets.
That isn't mandated by law though. There are numerous AC power connectors and sockets that are available and legal to use/install. It's nice when things are standardized but it shouldn't be required by law.
-
I see the move as overwhelmingly positive. I don't see how this differs too much from standardising AC power connectors and sockets.
That isn't mandated by law though. There are numerous AC power connectors and sockets that are available and legal to use/install. It's nice when things are standardized but it shouldn't be required by law.
Someone who knows more about electrical standards might want to chime in here, however as far as I'm aware (in Australia at least), cabling/wiring standards for mains wiring is also backed by legislation and strict rules.
-
Ok, fine, so there would be a mandated and endorsed standardized connector and data interlink format. How does that square with:
https://www.usb.org/logo-license (https://www.usb.org/logo-license)
https://www.usb.org/getting-vendor-id (https://www.usb.org/getting-vendor-id)
And other such additional costs? And here the EU was all concerned about Explorer and Google "taking over" the market due to no competition and barrier to entry.
You do not need to add the logo or pay the tax just to use the connector. Embrace standardization my american friend, sometimes the government forcing you to do something is good
incidentally, cheap usb c connectors that just expose the USB2 connections (so they're way less a PITA to handle/solder) has just started appearing in western distributors.. and even from big manufacturers. Last i checked, a couple of months ago, i couldn't find any
-
That is all good and all. What i want to know is if this law includes Apple.
-
That is all good and all. What i want to know is if this law includes Apple.
Good question as the news here has been implying that it's mainly Apple that they're after.
-
For some of us playing along at home, form factor aside, what can the lightning interface do that the USB-C cannot? Or am I trying to oversimplify it?
-
- standards are good
- law enforcing a standard is idiotic
They did something similar before, by enforcing cookies warning while browsing from EU. Made everybody unhappy and even more traceable, while achieving nothing.
Laws trying to regulate science and technology are a pest, and as damaging as corruption.
-
For some of us playing along at home, form factor aside, what can the lightning interface do that the USB-C cannot? Or am I trying to oversimplify it?
Provide an extra avenue of revenue for Apple. That's the only difference between the Apple Lightning port and USB-C.
Both are reversible, both the plug gets damaged first than the port on the device, both support video and audio.
USB-C is better on power delivery.
Any accessory to be certified (every accessory, not a line of accessories) have to pay a tax to Apple to have the logo of MFi - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22209924
https://appleinsider.com/articles/14/02/07/apple-lowers-mfi-lightening-licensing-fees-paving-way-for-more-affordable-ios-accessories-
So that is the main reason, all the other reasons they say being increase waste, controlling the experience of owning and using their product is just a smoke screen from the real reason.
-
I like it. This is one of the things that actually benefits consumers.
-
- standards are good
- law enforcing a standard is idiotic
They did something similar before, by enforcing cookies warning while browsing from EU. Made everybody unhappy and even more traceable, while achieving nothing.
Laws trying to regulate science and technology are a pest, and as damaging as corruption.
The cookie thing was a disaster. The intention was good, but not the outcome. Other than that, I have trust in our government and in extension EU. They are not trying to regulate "science". We don't have an issue with corruption.
-
I think this is likely to have similar unintended consequences, the inevitable result of technologically illiterate bureaucrats trying to legislate technology. Device power requirements vary widely, and USB-C is still a mess of different incomplete implementations. I could plug my work macbook into a USB-C charger for a phone and the plug would fit but it wouldn't work. The law requiring devices to be sold with a choice with or without the power adapter just means that in effect the power adapter will be an extra cost accessory rather than something included. I don't think we'll see devices sans charger suddenly dropping in price to account for that. Instead devices that include the charger will just cost more.
-
The cookie thing was a disaster. The intention was good, but not the outcome. Other than that, I have trust in our government and in extension EU. They are not trying to regulate "science". We don't have an issue with corruption.
Indeed the cookies law was horrible.
All it did was make websites constantly pop a message over the content i actually want to see. Making it worse that closing that message is different on every website... WHY?! Web browsers had a checkbox for turning off cookies for decades before the law even came around. If you don't want cookies then turn them off in there!
But this USB-C thing i do support. Pretty much all phone manufacturers are already using USB-C (Except the fruit flavored special snowflake), so we are going to have USB-C cables laying around everywhere. Might as well make those cables and chargers more useful.
The law is specific on portable devices, not everything USB. So this does not mean that USB HUBs or desktop printers have to use USB-C. Nor does it seam to toss in laptops (some of those need more juice than USB-C can give).
More curious if they will get apple to follow it. They already tried to make Apple use microUSB. This was back when the horrible chunky 30 pin connector was still used. They instead made lightning. This new port has much the same capabilities as a microUSB except that it is reversible (its also only USB 2.0 480Mbit). But then again USB-C did not exist back then, and Apples move is probably what promoted USB to come up with a reversible connector too.
How capabilities of USB-C are presented to the user is a different shitshow tho. It only has to support USB 2.0, anything else is optional (USB 3.0, 20Gbit, DisplayPort, Thunderbolt...etc) and will simply not work if both devices don't implement the same secondary optional feature.(Nor is this marked in any way next to the port, it simply has a generic USB logo)
-
The chargers are already compatible though, they're standard USB and I use apple chargers on other devices all the time, the only thing different is the cable and a cable comes with the phone, and AFAIK the latest iPhones don't even include a charger. I don't see how this is going to reduce waste.
-
I think this is likely to have similar unintended consequences, the inevitable result of technologically illiterate bureaucrats trying to legislate technology.
We have examples that could have lead to disasters due to such tech illiterate bureaucrats. Nice example a couple of years ago was the one digital commissioner promoting self-driving cars and wireless networks, without any knowledge what he was rambling about. Fortunately the parliament listens to technical experts and have in many cases shown common sense and stopped many disasters (this is at least my impression from the topics I have followed).
-
We have examples that could have lead to disasters due to such tech illiterate bureaucrats. Nice example a couple of years ago was the one digital commissioner promoting self-driving cars and wireless networks, without any knowledge what he was rambling about. Fortunately the parliament listens to technical experts and have in many cases shown common sense and stopped many disasters (this is at least my impression from the topics I have followed).
There was also the hilarious claim from the Australian prime minister:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2140747-laws-of-mathematics-dont-apply-here-says-australian-pm/ (https://www.newscientist.com/article/2140747-laws-of-mathematics-dont-apply-here-says-australian-pm/)
They ware pushing for companies running chat applications with end to end encryption to have to hand over chat logs to the authorities. Even after being explained to him why doing this is not technologically possible he said they should do it anyway. Since after all: "The laws of mathematics are very commendable, but the only law that applies in Australia is the law of Australia"
-
We have examples that could have lead to disasters due to such tech illiterate bureaucrats. Nice example a couple of years ago was the one digital commissioner promoting self-driving cars and wireless networks, without any knowledge what he was rambling about. Fortunately the parliament listens to technical experts and have in many cases shown common sense and stopped many disasters (this is at least my impression from the topics I have followed).
There was also the hilarious claim from the Australian prime minister:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2140747-laws-of-mathematics-dont-apply-here-says-australian-pm/ (https://www.newscientist.com/article/2140747-laws-of-mathematics-dont-apply-here-says-australian-pm/)
They ware pushing for companies running chat applications with end to end encryption to have to hand over chat logs to the authorities. Even after being explained to him why doing this is not technologically possible he said they should do it anyway. Since after all: "The laws of mathematics are very commendable, but the only law that applies in Australia is the law of Australia"
Yehhhhh, let's not go there. He was a moron. This is the same guy who believed it was a better idea to re-use the old, corroding copper phone lines for VDSL2-based services, rather than the original plan of running fibre optics to most homes and premises. Which one do you think ended up costing more?
But getting back on-point, there are actually mutual laws among countries (namely five-eyes) which can compel companies to "assist" where it's possible to do so. We're not talking about breaking encryption, but if there is data which is in the reach of companies, then they are compelled to hand it over to law enforcement in certain circumstances. Likewise they may be compelled to implement some kind of process/solution in order to achieve something. It's all very complicated.
-
The cookie thing was a disaster. The intention was good, but not the outcome. Other than that, I have trust in our government and in extension EU. They are not trying to regulate "science". We don't have an issue with corruption.
Indeed the cookies law was horrible.
As I hear they are working on an update for that, where the website needs to have a quick button to opt out from cookies.
Because it is a good intention law, that was totally circumvented by sociopath website programmers. Seriously, I had a website where setting up the cookies was "accept all or go thorough this 20 step procedure"
The enforced USB-C standard is welcomed. Because not only that will be mandated, but USB-PD as well if I understand correctly. So maybe we will go from the current status que where there is 20 different standards for quick charging. Not only does this allow to leave laptop chargers at home, but it allows portable electronics to be used on the go with standard PD capable battery banks.
Where are we to get a bunch of USB-C ports for these devices? USB-C hubs with a bunch of USB-C ports still don't exist.
This sounds like an issue where you are trying to find a coat because you already have a button for it.
-
The chargers are already compatible though, they're standard USB and I use apple chargers on other devices all the time, the only thing different is the cable and a cable comes with the phone, and AFAIK the latest iPhones don't even include a charger. I don't see how this is going to reduce waste.
I still have a box with more than a dozen of old chargers, with barrel jack or custom connectors, all outputting different voltages - because you never know! -
Now, when i go outdoor i need to bring four cables with my power bank. Type C for my phone, Micro B for recharghable head Lamp, Mini B for older backup head lamp, custom for dog tracker.
Now that i think of it, i hope that there are exceptions. The dog tracker (Tractive) has its own custom cable/connector for recharging with pogos. Things could be more complicated if it was USB as it has to handle mud, snow, rivers because you know, dogs. You can use an IPXX connector with a cover on the hole but yeaaaaah
-
Is this the end for the waterproof magnetic charge plugs?
https://www.cletk.com/connector/magnetic-usb-cable-connector-with-charging (https://www.cletk.com/connector/magnetic-usb-cable-connector-with-charging)
-
Five Eye is an international cartel of a few (western) secret-service agencies. Usually a cartel's goal is to take control over a market, while Five Eye's goal is to take control over the world. It's not that complicated.
-
Five Eye is an international cartel of a few (western) secret-service agencies. Usually a cartel's goal is to take control over a market, while Five Eye's goal is to take control over the world. It's not that complicated.
Is that like the Pentaverte?
-
Five Eye is an international cartel of a few (western) secret-service agencies. Usually a cartel's goal is to take control over a market, while Five Eye's goal is to take control over the world. It's not that complicated.
Orrrr... it's completely not that at all. Yes, let's go with that.
::)
-
USB-C docks and hubs are fairly common. I've use the OWC branded ones. For example: https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/owc-thunderbolt-hub
That example is actually a Thunderbolt hub, not a USB-C hub. Perhaps the EU should require Thunderbolt rather than USB-C.
-
Good grief. USB C is already a standard. Manufacturers use it because consumers approve it and show their approval by purchasing one product instead another. That's what free market means! Making it law takes away the power of the consumer to decide.
What happens when a better way is created? Some stuffed suits in a legislative chamber, most with law degrees and zero expertise in consumer electronics decide for us if we get to try the new way or not?
This is NOT in the consumers best interest. Exactly the opposite.
-
Standardisation is a good thing if it make technical and economic sense. Like the USB type C connector, the world should replace the USB type-A connector with one that can plug in either way around. You have a 50% chance of getting it right plugging it in without straining your back to look into the socket.
On the other hand the type A connector is robust, but the type-C connector is somewhat fragile - especially in phones.
-
Is this the end for the waterproof magnetic charge plugs?
https://www.cletk.com/connector/magnetic-usb-cable-connector-with-charging (https://www.cletk.com/connector/magnetic-usb-cable-connector-with-charging)
(https://i.expansys.net/img/b/325142/vinpok-bolt-usb-c-magnetic-charging-cable-for-macbook-pro-air.jpg)
I've been using a cable like this for my laptop for a year now.
-
I see the move as overwhelmingly positive. I don't see how this differs too much from standardising AC power connectors and sockets.
But there is no international 'standard' for power connectors. The U-ground 120V receptacle is one example. Then again, 120V isn't a 'standard' either.
https://hubbellcdn.com/ohwassets/HCI/WiringDevice/media/NEMA_Chart.pdf (https://hubbellcdn.com/ohwassets/HCI/WiringDevice/media/NEMA_Chart.pdf)
Go ahead, lock in to what will soon be an obsolete connector and throttle any innovation. What happens when the new ultra-high bandwidth USB-D comes along? Or, is the EU telling the USB Implementers Forum to quit thinking up new stuff?
I wonder if Apple will just ship an adapter from their connector to USB-C.
The rest of the world will move on and the EU 27 will stay behind to hold the fort. With a drawer full of adapters, no doubt!
What about the many-pin Microsoft Surface docking connector? They don't even pretend to use USB-C charging. But there's a bit more functionality in the cable than just charging.
Legislating USB-C as the only possible standard is a mistake. It drives a stake in the ground where none is needed, or desired.
Yes, buying a pack of 3 Lightning to USB-A cost me $10 but I suspect they will last a while:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PHY8JLL (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PHY8JLL)
I could have bought the official Apple cable for $20
https://www.cdw.com/product/apple-lightning-cable-lightning-usb-3.3-ft/5948264 (https://www.cdw.com/product/apple-lightning-cable-lightning-usb-3.3-ft/5948264)
What happens to barrel jacks?
-
Standardisation is a good thing if it make technical and economic sense. Like the USB type C connector, the world should replace the USB type-A connector with one that can plug in either way around. You have a 50% chance of getting it right plugging it in without straining your back to look into the socket.
On the other hand the type A connector is robust, but the type-C connector is somewhat fragile - especially in phones.
Many posts have stated that standardization is a good thing. No posts have stated the contrary. I'll conclude that nobody here disagrees.
What so many seem to have missed is that standardization (of this type) does not require legal legislation.
I'll repeat myself: USB C is already a standard. It is already replacing USB A connectors on computers. All of this has been taking place naturally and organically as the market evolves naturally and organically.
Some stupid fucking legislator gets pissed off because he can't find the charging cord for his phone so decides to stop working on meaningful things and propose a law that all charging cords should be the same.
This sounds like a good idea? Really?
People, get some perspective!!
-
This sounds like a good idea? Really?
Yes.
-
...tell the USB Implementers Forum to quit thinking up new stuff?
Heh, sometimes I wish they would.
Or at least slow down the rate of change, as we asymptotically approach a powered serial bus that is a very good all-rounder.
-
I wonder if Apple will just ship an adapter from their connector to USB-C.
That's not an option.
The rest of the world will move on and the EU 27 will stay behind to hold the fort. With a drawer full of adapters, no doubt!
You underestimate the power of the largest market in the western world.
What happens to barrel jacks?
Common portable devices stop having eighteen different options for the stupid flimsy things?
-
I see the move as overwhelmingly positive. I don't see how this differs too much from standardising AC power connectors and sockets.
But there is no international 'standard' for power connectors. The U-ground 120V receptacle is one example. Then again, 120V isn't a 'standard' either.
https://hubbellcdn.com/ohwassets/HCI/WiringDevice/media/NEMA_Chart.pdf (https://hubbellcdn.com/ohwassets/HCI/WiringDevice/media/NEMA_Chart.pdf)
Go ahead, lock in to what will soon be an obsolete connector and throttle any innovation. What happens when the new ultra-high bandwidth USB-D comes along? Or, is the EU telling the USB Implementers Forum to quit thinking up new stuff?
This is your confusing world of US power outlets.
Here in Europe we have standardized outlets for household use down to 2 types. The full earthed 3 terminal Schuko plug that does 230V/16A/3kW and a smaller 2 terminal version (CEE 7/17) for non earthed appliances that does up to 230V/2.5A. There are slight differences but the plugs fit all across Europe (Except for Brittan because they never did anything standardized). You never have to worry about having a powerful enough outlet to plug something in. All the outlets are powerful enough to run all appliances. For when you need more oomph to run your giant bandsaw or lathe you step up to the IEC 60309 connector that gives you 3 phase 400V/32A/22kW. They do come in larger sizes up to 125A per phase but you will never see one of those in residential. So so sum it up we have 3 connectors that do 500W or 3kW or 22kW, all of them 230V phase voltage. That's it, we don't need any more.
With USB the connector variants ware added as needed. At first we only had the big chunky USB-B plug as portable devices didn't use USB, Then we came up with miniUSB to address those. Then for a stupid reason we went to microUSB that is barely any smaller (Apparently because mini is unreliable but micro was fragile so i dunno). Then finally we went to USB-C to get a reversible connector, higher power rating and extra high speed pairs.
There is not much more room for improvement on USB-C now. It can handle 5A of power that can at 48V transfer 240W. There are dedicated high speed lines for each direction (flipping direction is annoying at high speed) those got designed for 5Gbit but then got updated to 20Gbit just fine. The standard made it perfectly legal to reuse the high speed pairs for other protocols if required. It is pushing right up against the laws of physics at this point.
The major problem of previous USB connectors was that they just did not have enough pins and they didn't handle enough amps. Sure maybe at some point we will move to a fiberoptic connector for even more speed, but pretty sure USB-C will easily be more than good enough for most devices >25 years in the future. They can still use funky new modulations methods to squeeze even more bandwidth out of the existing USB-C plugs.
-
Standardisation is a good thing if it make technical and economic sense. Like the USB type C connector, the world should replace the USB type-A connector with one that can plug in either way around. You have a 50% chance of getting it right plugging it in without straining your back to look into the socket.
On the other hand the type A connector is robust, but the type-C connector is somewhat fragile - especially in phones.
Many posts have stated that standardization is a good thing. No posts have stated the contrary. I'll conclude that nobody here disagrees.
What so many seem to have missed is that standardization (of this type) does not require legal legislation.
I'll repeat myself: USB C is already a standard. It is already replacing USB A connectors on computers. All of this has been taking place naturally and organically as the market evolves naturally and organically.
Some stupid fucking legislator gets pissed off because he can't find the charging cord for his phone so decides to stop working on meaningful things and propose a law that all charging cords should be the same.
This sounds like a good idea? Really?
People, get some perspective!!
it was legislation that stopped manufacturers reinventing the wheel by forcing them to use USB to charge phones, ....
-
In the US, we do indeed have standards for receptacles and such. It's just that our standards (NEMA) aren't European standards and since we are separated by a large body of water, who cares? Canada and Mexico use the same devices as the US although Mexico 127V is a little high compared to the US at 120V. Our frequency is also different than most of the world 60Hz vs 50Hz and we have a fairly long and continuing history with 25 Hz, specifically for railroads in the northeast.
What I worry about is that restraining innovation to match EU regulations also puts a damper on advancements for the rest of the world. At some point, the business decision will be to offer a new 'gee whiz' product but not to the EU versus not creating the product at all.
-
That is all good and all. What i want to know is if this law includes Apple.
Good question as the news here has been implying that it's mainly Apple that they're after.
They are definitely after Apple. But it's weird, because the new ruling is that all such devices sold in the EU from 2024 onward must have USB-C charging ports, and I read an article that claimed 29% of devices already have USB-C, 21% are Lightning, and the remainder use micro-USB. So those vendors using micro-USB are in the same position as Apple.
Anyway, it's articles like this one (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/07/technology/eu-tablets-phones-usbc-chargers.html) which say nonsense like,
The European Union on Tuesday reached an agreement that will require all new smartphones, tablets and laptops to use a common charger by 2026.
The policy is an attempt to address the well-known consumer frustration of having a drawer full of chargers — some for Apple devices, others for portable speakers or hand-held gaming systems.
But the "Drawerful of chargers" is not the problem! It's the cable on the device.
Apple surely has already planned for USB-C on the iPhone, and they'll likely make an announcement about having that port on iPhone 14 this fall. So the future is USB-C, and that's fine.
One thing I don't like about the EU mandate is that as of 2026, all laptops need to have USB-C charging ports. Apple finally brought the MagSafe charge port back to the MacBook Pro last year and now it's on the new MacBook Air. MagSafe is brilliant. Does this mean that Apple will have to eliminate it again? Do note that a MacBook Pro with MagSafe can also be charged from the Thunderbolt ports, so basically Apple is already in compliance.
-
I'm for standardization. We'll have to see how hard coding USB-C specifically plays out in a long term, but it would be a while before it gets obsolete.
They talk about charging and it is not clear how it relates to data transfer.
Exactly. I don't think that there's any provision in the law that prevents a company from putting a 2nd port (of their choice) to the device and using it for a data port. The law only mandates a USB-C port for charging.
I'm 200% in favor. I've spent too much much money buying one of a kind chargers to replace the original one when it died.
Now I just hope that the US will follow the EU's example.
-
it was legislation that stopped manufacturers reinventing the wheel by forcing them to use USB to charge phones, ....
I'm not sure what legislation you're talking about. I'll assume it has something to do with early phones that used a variety of barrel plugs. If so, I'm not ready to give law makers any credit for increasing convenience in my life (which is all that this law is about; simple convenience.) I'm certain that makers of smart phones would have included USB ports for communication purposes anyway. And, I'm just as certain that they would have used those ports for charging. No laws required. (For the record, I am not against all laws, just pointless ones that do more harm than good.)
I challenge anyone on this forum to find me a newly designed phone that doesn't already use USB C. Not an old design that is being maintained for a few more years; a new design. (Apple notwithstanding. I cannot account for what Apple does.) The point is that consumers already demand USB C. When shopping for my next phone I will not consider one with a microB connector. It doesn't need to be forced on me. I'm not a child.
-
This is your confusing world of US power outlets.
Here in Europe we have standardized outlets for household use down to 2 types. The full earthed 3 terminal Schuko plug that does 230V/16A/3kW and a smaller 2 terminal version (CEE 7/17) for non earthed appliances that does up to 230V/2.5A. There are slight differences but the plugs fit all across Europe (Except for Brittan because they never did anything standardized). You never have to worry about having a powerful enough outlet to plug something in. All the outlets are powerful enough to run all appliances.
LMAO at how confidently incorrect you are. The only plug that fits everywhere in continental Europe is the 2-pin europlug (which is limited to 2.5A). For everything above that, it’s a smattering of different plugs. Not all of Europe uses Schuko. Denmark? Nope. Italy? Nope. Switzerland? Nope. France? Nope (though most schuko plugs are made to be compatible with French sockets, too).
The US is hardly a “confusing” world of sockets. Most people never actively use anything but the grounded NEMA 5-15 socket. The stove and dryer get plugged in by the appliance delivery people, and that’s basically that.
-
Standardisation is a good thing if it make technical and economic sense. Like the USB type C connector, the world should replace the USB type-A connector with one that can plug in either way around. You have a 50% chance of getting it right plugging it in without straining your back to look into the socket.
On the other hand the type A connector is robust, but the type-C connector is somewhat fragile - especially in phones.
The robustness of the type A connector is a huge win for me. I don't get the hype over being able to insert it either way around, in the 20 or so years since USB appeared I have never really had this problem, if it doesn't fit just flip it around, no need to crawl down there to look. I've had to replace several charging cables for my work macbook because the tiny and fragile USB-C connectors get loose and sloppy or are damaged.
-
This is your confusing world of US power outlets.
What are you even talking about? The NEMA-15 receptacle is absolutely ubiquitous, you will find them everywhere throughout North America. There is nothing prohibiting using something else but absolutely nobody does because all portable appliances and lamps and stuff come with NEMA-15 plugs. There are 2 or 3 options for large appliance receptacles, 30-50A 240V stuff like dryers and stoves but that will be a stationary device on a dedicated circuit so it's a total non issue, install the correct cord on the appliance when you buy it, plug it in and forget about it. If you are confused it is because you are making incorrect assumptions having never set foot on the continent.
-
Not in UK -> https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-61720276 (https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-61720276)
Quote : UK will not copy EU demand for common charging cable
-
Five Eye is an international cartel of a few (western) secret-service agencies. Usually a cartel's goal is to take control over a market, while Five Eye's goal is to take control over the world. It's not that complicated.
Is that like the Pentaverte?
Septaverate. I want KENTOR !
-
Not in UK -> https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-61720276 (https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-61720276)
Quote : UK will not copy EU demand for common charging cable
at this point isn't the UK just insisting on doing every opposite of what the EU does?
-
It sounds like the UK is just doing the sensible thing and not legally mandating it by banning the sales of devices that don't comply. They're not preventing devices from being sold that have the USB-C charging port, or mandating a competing standard. This is a total non issue, USB-C is already a standard and already nearly ubiquitous, even in applications like laptop charging where I strongly prefer something else. Give me choice, don't force only one option to be available.
-
Not in UK -> https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-61720276 (https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-61720276)
Quote : UK will not copy EU demand for common charging cable
Irrelevant, because we're too small a market to matter. We will, no matter what the brexiteers think, follow the EU in nearly every major decision whether we choose to or not.
-
They are definitely after Apple. But it's weird, because the new ruling is that all such devices sold in the EU from 2024 onward must have USB-C charging ports, and I read an article that claimed 29% of devices already have USB-C, 21% are Lightning, and the remainder use micro-USB. So those vendors using micro-USB are in the same position as Apple.
current devices or new devices?
-
Not in UK -> https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-61720276 (https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-61720276)
Quote : UK will not copy EU demand for common charging cable
If the law is passed in a market as large as EU then it will affect all markets. Samsung is not going to make phones with different connectors just for UK. Imagine if they did: it would prove just how badly something like this can backfire.
-
USB-C is already a standard and already nearly ubiquitous, even in applications like laptop charging where I strongly prefer something else. Give me choice, don't force only one option to be available.
Maybe not all that ubiquitous, I just bought an HP Omen laptop and it uses a barrel connector. It was introduced in 2021. The brick is rated for 230W (19.5V, 11.8A). The newest USB-C standard will JUST cover this if the laptop is redesigned because the USB-C current limit of 5A is much too low.
I don't know what would be involved with taking 4.8A 50V but it would still require a brick plus some internal modifications that certainly won't promote the concept of 'thinner is better'.
It's a power hog but I bought it for the NVIDIA RTX 3070 graphics adapter with a ton of CUDA cores.
-
I don't like bans, this is definitely one of those cases where I would prefer to let the free market decide.
Yes. I really hate this trend of babysitting people as though they were all children.
If you are looking for a new phone and the ability to use chargers other than the vendor ones matters to you, just choose a phone appropriately. Done. Do you freaking need to be babysitted for that? And the choice is already there. USB-C has already been almost ubiquitous on mobile phones for years now. If you happen to pick a phone that has something else, that's your choice and your responsibility.
And if you're absolutely willing for the "state" to step in for you because you absolutely want, say, an iPhone, and it doesn't have USB-C, well, you're gonna get what you deserve: to be treated as a kid throwing a tantrum. If there's enough demand for that, Apple will just implement that in order not to loose customers. As simple as that. If not, well, you're acting as a child.
-
I just love that we are again in a discussion where everyone from other continents are trying to tell us Europeans how to govern ourselves.
Guess what, this was made by politicians that we voted for. Strangely, after all this "innovation hampering" legislation we discussed over the years, we can still drink tee, vacuum clean our houses, have light in our living room use our mobile phone in other countries (when they banned extra charges for roaming), and even charge them with the same plug. What a day to be alive.
Please do complain more, that as of yesterday that they also introducing minimum wages that should support basic human decency.
-
Customers may not care what charging port is used on the device, but part of the reason is reduction of e-waste, which is something governments have to think about and have better perspective on. No individual would care, just like no individual cares about use of single-use plastics.
-
I don't like bans, this is definitely one of those cases where I would prefer to let the free market decide.
Yes. I really hate this trend of babysitting people as though they were all children.
If you are looking for a new phone and the ability to use chargers other than the vendor ones matters to you, just choose a phone appropriately. Done. Do you freaking need to be babysitted for that? And the choice is already there. USB-C has already been almost ubiquitous on mobile phones for years now. If you happen to pick a phone that has something else, that's your choice and your responsibility.
And if you're absolutely willing for the "state" to step in for you because you absolutely want, say, an iPhone, and it doesn't have USB-C, well, you're gonna get what you deserve: to be treated as a kid throwing a tantrum. If there's enough demand for that, Apple will just implement that in order not to loose customers. As simple as that. If not, well, you're acting as a child.
It's not just phones:
"Any cell phone, tablet, e-reader, earbuds, digital camera, headphones, headset, handheld video game console, or portable speaker that has a rechargeable battery that’s charged over a wire (rather than, say, a dedicated charging dock or wirelessly) will have to have a USB-C port, regardless of the manufacturer. "
-
I just love that we are again in a discussion where everyone from other continents are trying to tell us Europeans how to govern ourselves.
It seems you take yourself as a European far more seriously than I do.
The problem is that if every portable device sold in the EU must have USB C, then 15 years from now everyone in the world will still be using USB C even if better alternatives have become available, and they will. In this case, Europeans end up governing the world, and I legitimately care about that.
-
I just love that we are again in a discussion where everyone from other continents are trying to tell us Europeans how to govern ourselves.
It seems you take yourself as a European far more seriously than I do.
The problem is that if every portable device sold in the EU must have USB C, then 15 years from now everyone in the world will still be using USB C even if better alternatives have become available, and they will. In this case, Europeans end up governing the world, and I legitimately care about that.
Too bad, but guess what, here is your own argument for you: It's a free market. We decided that we are just not going to import a random assortment of plugs anymore, and we have the right to do so. You are free to do whatever you want with your domestic products.
-
It sounds like the UK is just doing the sensible thing and not legally mandating it by banning the sales of devices that don't comply. They're not preventing devices from being sold that have the USB-C charging port, or mandating a competing standard. This is a total non issue, USB-C is already a standard and already nearly ubiquitous, even in applications like laptop charging where I strongly prefer something else. Give me choice, don't force only one option to be available.
There's probably a lot to the point you are making. I have an old XPS13. The charger that came with it had barrel connector. For some reason, the thing stopped charging, but I found that it would charge through the USB C connector. I continue to use it years later.
So, it wouldn't (won't) be so bad if laptops and other large battery powered devices also offer an alternative. The problem is that every little battery powered device made today charges through USB. If they're all required to use USB C, then when something better comes along then there will be two standards. USB C will not be allowed to die a natural death. It will continue to be everywhere in tandem with the newer standard. So phones, which really don't have room for too many ports, will be stuck with USB C instead of what consumers really want (at least the low end ones.). All of which seems completely counterproductive to the proposed law, but I'm not in the heads of the lawmakers, so I don't really know what they're thinking.
-
Too bad, but guess what, here is your own argument for you: It's a free market. We decided that we are just not going to import a random assortment of plugs anymore, and we have the right to do so. You are free to do whatever you want with your domestic products.
Good point. I'm also free to complain when European laws affect the products that I buy. You are free to ignore me. Where is this going? Nowhere.
-
Europeans end up governing the world, and I legitimately care about that.
I guess that is a worry for america as they seem to think its there job to govern the world.
-
I just love that we are again in a discussion where everyone from other continents are trying to tell us Europeans how to govern ourselves.
It seems you take yourself as a European far more seriously than I do.
The problem is that if every portable device sold in the EU must have USB C, then 15 years from now everyone in the world will still be using USB C even if better alternatives have become available, and they will. In this case, Europeans end up governing the world, and I legitimately care about that.
I doubt that. The USB-C connector as-is provides 2 bi-directional lanes (4 lanes in total) with multi-gigabit data rates today. This connector can grow along with increasing data rates. In 15 years the USB-C connector is still relevant albeit with speeds that could be in the tens of Gbit/s by then.
-
USB-C docks and hubs are fairly common. I've use the OWC branded ones. For example: https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/owc-thunderbolt-hub
That example is actually a Thunderbolt hub, not a USB-C hub. Perhaps the EU should require Thunderbolt rather than USB-C.
I'm aware but they are also compatible with non-Thunderbolt devices.
-
Europeans end up governing the world, and I legitimately care about that.
I guess that is a worry for america as they seem to think its there job to govern the world.
:palm:
-
The problem is that if every portable device sold in the EU must have USB C, then 15 years from now everyone in the world will still be using USB C even if better alternatives have become available, and they will. In this case, Europeans end up governing the world, and I legitimately care about that.
I doubt that. The USB-C connector as-is provides 2 bi-directional lanes (4 lanes in total) with multi-gigabit data rates today. This connector can grow along with increasing data rates. In 15 years the USB-C connector is still relevant albeit with speeds that could be in the tens of Gbit/s by then.
I believe you are right. USB C has a lot of potential and will serve us well for a long time, whether it's the best option or not.
-
The problem is that if every portable device sold in the EU must have USB C, then 15 years from now everyone in the world will still be using USB C even if better alternatives have become available, and they will. In this case, Europeans end up governing the world, and I legitimately care about that.
I doubt that. The USB-C connector as-is provides 2 bi-directional lanes (4 lanes in total) with multi-gigabit data rates today. This connector can grow along with increasing data rates. In 15 years the USB-C connector is still relevant albeit with speeds that could be in the tens of Gbit/s by then.
I believe you are right. USB C has a lot of potential and will serve us well for a long time, whether it's the best option or not.
It is the best option currently available to all. A fair compromise, I'd say.
-
I see the move as overwhelmingly positive. I don't see how this differs too much from standardising AC power connectors and sockets.
Oh no!
Like cellular technology, like AC power outlets, like train track pitch, like cars and which side of the road..
When it comes time for another region to standardize, you know what happens.
A different plug and socket for every jurisdiction. Yay!
:popcorn:
-
Device power requirements vary widely, and USB-C is still a mess of different incomplete implementations. I could plug my work macbook into a USB-C charger for a phone and the plug would fit but it wouldn't work.
Try it, you might be surprised. I've run USB-C laptops (including a macbook pro) off 15W and 20W adapters, they negotiated PD and just worked. Old "dumb" chargers wont work as they are fixed on 5V with no negotiation.
-
I'll assume it has something to do with early phones that used a variety of barrel plugs. If so, I'm not ready to give law makers any credit for increasing convenience in my life (which is all that this law is about; simple convenience.) I'm certain that makers of smart phones would have included USB ports for communication purposes anyway. And, I'm just as certain that they would have used those ports for charging. No laws required. (For the record, I am not against all laws, just pointless ones that do more harm than good.)
This shows your age very starkly. Mobile phones traditionally had obscure brand (or model) specific connectors for power and serial (or USB) so that you had to buy the accessories from them and only them. In the bad old good old dark days, you couldnt even charge over USB and as the power adapter had a captive cable it was mutually exclusive: charge or transfer data.
-
Sorry about butting in from the outside, but I see two problems with this. (Also note that I haven't read the actual regulations so my second issue may be moot.
1. It seems that this is really directed at Apple. I'm not an Apple user, owner or supporter but government attacks on a single company make me nervous. Would the same action happen if Apple were based in Belgium? If Europeans don't like purchasing from a US based company they have a variety of options, just as we in the US have options other than Chinese.
2. USB-C is a great solution for a variety of devices. I use it and like it. But it seems marginal for laptops in general and very questionable for portable workstations and other high end devices. Rather than defining in terms of portable devices a definition specifying all devices with charging requirements less than X would be a better solution. I also can't see USB-C for hearing aids and other tiny devices. So it seems a volume range should also be part of the law.
-
1. It seems that this is really directed at Apple. I'm not an Apple user, owner or supporter but government attacks on a single company make me nervous. Would the same action happen if Apple were based in Belgium? If Europeans don't like purchasing from a US based company they have a variety of options, just as we in the US have options other than Chinese.
Apple is the largest single offender but not the only one, and their country of origin has absolutely nothing to do with it.
-
Customers may not care what charging port is used on the device, but part of the reason is reduction of e-waste, which is something governments have to think about and have better perspective on. No individual would care, just like no individual cares about use of single-use plastics.
But how is this going to reduce e-waste? The chargers are *already* standardized, the market settled on USB years ago, cables are readily available to go between USB-C or Lightning to USB-A. At the very most optimistic level it's going to save somebody buying a cable, and those are essentially consumable anyway. Worst case it's going to stifle things by forcing antiquated USB-C after something much better has been developed, or forcing it onto devices where it is not suitable. The end result will be more expensive hardware and fewer choices, and a lack of flexibility since a specific hardware standard is now mandated by law.
As for why those of us not in the EU care, it's because quite simply the EU is big enough that what they mandate gets foisted onto the rest of the world as well. If laptops all have to switch to USB charging to satisfy EU laws then guess what, all laptops available in the rest of the world will do the same, if the manufacture wants to sell the same basic model in the EU.
-
I'll assume it has something to do with early phones that used a variety of barrel plugs. If so, I'm not ready to give law makers any credit for increasing convenience in my life (which is all that this law is about; simple convenience.) I'm certain that makers of smart phones would have included USB ports for communication purposes anyway. And, I'm just as certain that they would have used those ports for charging. No laws required. (For the record, I am not against all laws, just pointless ones that do more harm than good.)
This shows your age very starkly. Mobile phones traditionally had obscure brand (or model) specific connectors for power and serial (or USB) so that you had to buy the accessories from them and only them. In the bad old good old dark days, you couldnt even charge over USB and as the power adapter had a captive cable it was mutually exclusive: charge or transfer data.
That doesn't say anything about his age, I remember well the days when mobile phones had proprietary connectors, but they standardized without any government intervention at all. They did it because it made sense, USB became ubiquitous enough that it was no longer sensible in most cases to use custom connectors. These days Apple is the exception, however even they include a cable that terminates with a standard USB plug so the issue is moot.
-
I'll assume it has something to do with early phones that used a variety of barrel plugs. If so, I'm not ready to give law makers any credit for increasing convenience in my life (which is all that this law is about; simple convenience.) I'm certain that makers of smart phones would have included USB ports for communication purposes anyway. And, I'm just as certain that they would have used those ports for charging. No laws required. (For the record, I am not against all laws, just pointless ones that do more harm than good.)
This shows your age very starkly. Mobile phones traditionally had obscure brand (or model) specific connectors for power and serial (or USB) so that you had to buy the accessories from them and only them. In the bad old good old dark days, you couldnt even charge over USB and as the power adapter had a captive cable it was mutually exclusive: charge or transfer data.
That doesn't say anything about his age, I remember well the days when mobile phones had proprietary connectors, but they standardized without any government intervention at all. They did it because it made sense, USB became ubiquitous enough that it was no longer sensible in most cases to use custom connectors. These days Apple is the exception, however even they include a cable that terminates with a standard USB plug so the issue is moot.
USB was widespread well before smartphones used the standard connectors directly:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_Pop-Port
one easily documented example persisted until 2007, which links to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FastPort
continuing to 2010
While USB was in use since 1996 and was ubiquitous in the early 2000's as Microsoft had USB only mice from 2001 onward?
-
"Enforcing" :-DD
Riiiiighty ho then. They wish. Lighting connector design is VASTLY superior in terms of robustness and mechanical endurance than the crappy USB-C folded sheet metal junk. Just because one system has been adopted as "the standard" for 99% of companies, doesn't make it better. MacDonalds, as yummy as it is, may be VASTLY popular, but that doesn't make it a "better" product.
Apple *WILL* avoid USB-C on iPhone - you can print my bold statements out, take them to the bookies and place a wager on them, as you'll see, it simply won't EVER happen. Apple are far too advanced, too intelligent and long-sighted as compared to "the rest of em" - as is seen by their continual ascent of success, and designs that the ID world use as reference, and talking points. No one ever made documentaries about, nor marvelled at the design prowess of random, junky Android devices nor Microsoft "Surface" laptops. They ALL chase Apple, and try SO excruciatingly hard to NOT appear to... it's laughable.
It's easier to admit defeat and admire the winner, instead of being all sour grapes over it. Apple won, for the foreseeable, any sane, truly informed, seasoned Apple journalist over 40 will tell you that much. Accept it, swallow it, sit down and enjoy, because despite all human errors that they also make (of course), they are STILL the best of the best.
-
one easily documented example persisted until 2007, which links to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FastPort
continuing to 2010
While USB was in use since 1996 and was ubiquitous in the early 2000's as Microsoft had USB only mice from 2001 onward?
What is your point? USB became the defacto standard for smartphones without any government intervention at all. Apple phones have always come with a cable that terminates with a USB plug too, so even though it isn't present on the phone it's a non-issue, they just need a cable and the cables are cheap, with aftermarket ones readily available.
-
1. It seems that this is really directed at Apple. I'm not an Apple user, owner or supporter but government attacks on a single company make me nervous. Would the same action happen if Apple were based in Belgium? If Europeans don't like purchasing from a US based company they have a variety of options, just as we in the US have options other than Chinese.
It's only "directed" at Apple because they are the odd ones out and made the decision to be that way. They have a track record of changing their power adapters with new revisions of their products (namely their laptops), when other manufacturers mostly stuck with the same connectors (Dell and Lenovo for example). I don't understand why Apple needs 18 different types of AC adapters between the MacBook, MacBook Air and MacBook Pro products. For those wondering:
2006-2009 15"/17" MacBook Pro - 85W adapter with T-style MagSafe connector
2006-2009 MacBook - 60W adapter with T-style MagSafe connector
2009 13" MacBook Pro - 60W adapter with T-style connector
2008-2011 MacBook Air - 45W adapter with L-style MagSafe connector
2009-2010 MacBook - 60W adapter with L-style MagSafe connector
2010-2012 13" MacBook Pro - 60W adapter with L-style MagSafe connector
2010-2012 15"/17" MacBook Pro 85W adapter with L-style MagSafe connector
2012-2015 13" MacBook Pro - 60W adapter with MagSafe2 connector
2012-2015 15" MacBook Pro - 85W adapter with MagSafe2 connector
2012-2017 MacBook Air - 45W MagSafe with MagSafe2 connector
2015 MacBook - 29/30W USB-C adapter with USB-C cable
2016 13" MacBook Pro - 61W USB-C adapter with USB-C cable
2016 15" MacBok Pro - 87W USB-C adapter with USB-C cable
2018+ MacBook Air - 30W USB-C adapter with USB-C cable
2019 16" MacBook Pro - 96W USB-C adapter with USB-C cable
2021 14" MacBook Pro - 67W USB-C adapter with MagSafe3 cable
2021 16" MacBook Pro - 96W USB-C adapter with MagSafe3 cable
2021 16" MacBook Pro - 140W USB-C adapter with MagSafe3 cable
-
1. It seems that this is really directed at Apple. I'm not an Apple user, owner or supporter but government attacks on a single company make me nervous. Would the same action happen if Apple were based in Belgium? If Europeans don't like purchasing from a US based company they have a variety of options, just as we in the US have options other than Chinese.
It's only "directed" at Apple because they are the odd ones out and made the decision to be that way. They have a track record of changing their power adapters with new revisions of their products (namely their laptops), when other manufacturers mostly stuck with the same connectors (Dell and Lenovo for example). I don't understand why Apple needs 19 different types of AC adapters between the MacBook, MacBook Air and MacBook Pro products.
One is not required to "understand why", one is given the choice to buy Apple, use and enjoy, accepting these things, or not to. Free will is a marvel.
-
1. It seems that this is really directed at Apple. I'm not an Apple user, owner or supporter but government attacks on a single company make me nervous. Would the same action happen if Apple were based in Belgium? If Europeans don't like purchasing from a US based company they have a variety of options, just as we in the US have options other than Chinese.
It's only "directed" at Apple because they are the odd ones out and made the decision to be that way. They have a track record of changing their power adapters with new revisions of their products (namely their laptops), when other manufacturers mostly stuck with the same connectors (Dell and Lenovo for example). I don't understand why Apple needs 19 different types of AC adapters between the MacBook, MacBook Air and MacBook Pro products.
One is not required to "understand why", one is given the choice to buy Apple, use and enjoy, accepting these things, or not to. Free will is a marvel.
If all of this is meant to 'stick it' to Apple, then my question is why?
If an Apple phone owner can't charge their own phone, who gives a shit?
-
1. It seems that this is really directed at Apple. I'm not an Apple user, owner or supporter but government attacks on a single company make me nervous. Would the same action happen if Apple were based in Belgium? If Europeans don't like purchasing from a US based company they have a variety of options, just as we in the US have options other than Chinese.
It's only "directed" at Apple because they are the odd ones out and made the decision to be that way. They have a track record of changing their power adapters with new revisions of their products (namely their laptops), when other manufacturers mostly stuck with the same connectors (Dell and Lenovo for example). I don't understand why Apple needs 19 different types of AC adapters between the MacBook, MacBook Air and MacBook Pro products.
One is not required to "understand why", one is given the choice to buy Apple, use and enjoy, accepting these things, or not to. Free will is a marvel.
If all of this is meant to 'stick it' to Apple, then my question is why?
If an Apple phone owner can't charge their own phone, who gives a shit?
please expand, your point is rather unclear :) thx
-
I'll assume it has something to do with early phones that used a variety of barrel plugs. If so, I'm not ready to give law makers any credit for increasing convenience in my life (which is all that this law is about; simple convenience.) I'm certain that makers of smart phones would have included USB ports for communication purposes anyway. And, I'm just as certain that they would have used those ports for charging. No laws required. (For the record, I am not against all laws, just pointless ones that do more harm than good.)
This shows your age very starkly. Mobile phones traditionally had obscure brand (or model) specific connectors for power and serial (or USB) so that you had to buy the accessories from them and only them. In the bad old good old dark days, you couldnt even charge over USB and as the power adapter had a captive cable it was mutually exclusive: charge or transfer data.
That doesn't say anything about his age, I remember well the days when mobile phones had proprietary connectors, but they standardized without any government intervention at all. They did it because it made sense, USB became ubiquitous enough that it was no longer sensible in most cases to use custom connectors. These days Apple is the exception, however even they include a cable that terminates with a standard USB plug so the issue is moot.
USB was widespread well before smartphones used the standard connectors directly:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_Pop-Port
one easily documented example persisted until 2007, which links to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FastPort
continuing to 2010
While USB was in use since 1996 and was ubiquitous in the early 2000's as Microsoft had USB only mice from 2001 onward?
What is your point? USB became the defacto standard for smartphones without any government intervention at all. Apple phones have always come with a cable that terminates with a USB plug too, so even though it isn't present on the phone it's a non-issue, they just need a cable and the cables are cheap, with aftermarket ones readily available.
If someone cannot remember the dominat (smart) phones of the 2005 era (17 years ago), they are either very young or lived in an undeveloped area upto then, likely the poster is young and doesn't know the history of the market.
You made out like (smart)phones had USB all along, they really didnt. USB was in widespread consumer use and the phone manufacturers persisted with their proprietary connectors (even making new ones as linked above). Exactly what you and that poster say wouldn't/didn't happen. I'm not picking out some obscure minority brand here, those were the dominant players in the market and they went for profit ahead of standardization/convenience. They weren't all using 5V or USB power for charging which made 3rd party cables a minefield, that changed only with standardization to USB connectors on the phones.
-
I think the example of Apple is interesting. There's no question that there are a lot of "Apple or Nothing" people. (Not judging, just saying...) I wonder if Apple were to offer iPhones with USB C as an option, how many users would happily switch?
-
1. It seems that this is really directed at Apple. I'm not an Apple user, owner or supporter but government attacks on a single company make me nervous. Would the same action happen if Apple were based in Belgium? If Europeans don't like purchasing from a US based company they have a variety of options, just as we in the US have options other than Chinese.
It's only "directed" at Apple because they are the odd ones out and made the decision to be that way. They have a track record of changing their power adapters with new revisions of their products (namely their laptops), when other manufacturers mostly stuck with the same connectors (Dell and Lenovo for example). I don't understand why Apple needs 18 different types of AC adapters between the MacBook, MacBook Air and MacBook Pro products. For those wondering:
[MagSafe, interchangeable straight or right angle plug
MagSafe 2
USB-C
MagSafe3]
edited for clarity, thats only 4 different connectors in the mix. Noting further the Magsafe 3 is a cable to USB-C at the other end so you can continue to use older/other USB-C power bricks.... and all the magsafe 4 laptops will also power over USB-C so its optional.
Dell and HP have stuck with their connectors, but the bricks came in even more numerous variations. Desperate comparison talking about connectors then listing power variants.
USB-C as a mandatory inclusions as a (but not necessarily the only) charge format is a good way forward and the connector will likely be extended beyond thunderbolt 4 speeds (some minor mechanical changes were needed for the higher power delivery).
-
your point is rather unclear
Wouldn't be the first time. ;D
Wasn't making a point rather posing a line of questioning. If an Apple user cannot charge a phone with a USB-C (directly), why does the EU care?
If you were to press me for making a point, this is it. I think this is just a pissing match between the EU and (this week) Apple. And everyone knows it.
-
I think the example of Apple is interesting. There's no question that there are a lot of "Apple or Nothing" people. (Not judging, just saying...) I wonder if Apple were to offer iPhones with USB C as an option, how many users would happily switch?
In which direction?
Away from Apple because they love the lighting connector so much? (probably not many)
Toward Apple because they refuse to use a USB-C/A to lightning cable? (probably more, but still not many)
The charging cable it a non issue for the vast majority, especially when USB-C is still new/different so few people have them in excess or already in use across the majority of their devices.
-
The charging cable it a non issue for the vast majority, especially when USB-C is still new/different so few people have them in excess or already in use across the majority of their devices.
This is the thing. I've yet to encounter anyone in the wild that has claimed that USB-C is the be all and end all. It's only the arsehats on the internet.
-
The charging cable it a non issue for the vast majority, especially when USB-C is still new/different so few people have them in excess or already in use across the majority of their devices.
This is the thing. I've yet to encounter anyone in the wild that has claimed that USB-C is the be all and end all. It's only the arsehats on the internet.
It is possible to be polite about it ;) having used USB-C and thunderbolt from the "start" I see lots of things to like.
With the stabilization of the power delivery standard and its wide supply span USB-C is suited to many of the jobs that previously needed a proprietary supply and/or connector. The key is that uptake has increased to the point that its now a commodity product and USB-C power adapters are cheap enough to be designed in on new products. We're seeing all sorts of "dumb" devices starting to use USB-C as their power source with zero comms, the change has already arrived.
I'd love to see a worldwide de-facto power standard, and some EU legislation requiring it on portable electronics might be all thats needed to get there. That would be a motivation for many people to pick products that will plug into those sources/supplies. But I'm not too bothered if they don't, or what connector is on specific product blah. If the EU mandated USB-C power adapters, allowing arbitrary cable between the supply and the device that would be fine from my point of view too. It would be nice to have at least one part of the chain standardized.
Worst case? EU mandates USB-C on the device, but 5V only adapters without PD negotiation continue to be the norm.
-
I think the example of Apple is interesting. There's no question that there are a lot of "Apple or Nothing" people. (Not judging, just saying...) I wonder if Apple were to offer iPhones with USB C as an option, how many users would happily switch?
In which direction?
Away from Apple because they love the lighting connector so much? (probably not many)
Toward Apple because they refuse to use a USB-C/A to lightning cable? (probably more, but still not many)
The charging cable it a non issue for the vast majority, especially when USB-C is still new/different so few people have them in excess or already in use across the majority of their devices.
Would it really matter so much for end-users? I think it would be a selling point to be honest. No longer do Apple users need to hunt around or carry their own proprietary charging cable to charge their phones. Even in Australia where there is a roughly 50/50 split between Apple and Android users, USB-C cables are far more common.
-
I remember well the days when mobile phones had proprietary connectors, but they standardized without any government intervention at all.
All of the cell phones may have somewhat standardized on USB (Apple certainly hasn't!) but many other devices such as GPS receivers certainly haven't. Every GPS that I've owned has used a proprietary charging cable. The Garmins don't even use the same (Garmin proprietary) cable for their different models.
I'm sure that the members of this forum can come up with a LONG list of rechargeable devices that use proprietary connectors and haven't even begun to standardize on USB-C or anything else. Flashlights (aka torches) come to mind.
-
I think the example of Apple is interesting. There's no question that there are a lot of "Apple or Nothing" people. (Not judging, just saying...) I wonder if Apple were to offer iPhones with USB C as an option, how many users would happily switch?
In which direction?
Away from Apple because they love the lighting connector so much? (probably not many)
Toward Apple because they refuse to use a USB-C/A to lightning cable? (probably more, but still not many)
The charging cable it a non issue for the vast majority, especially when USB-C is still new/different so few people have them in excess or already in use across the majority of their devices.
Would it really matter so much for end-users? I think it would be a selling point to be honest. No longer do Apple users need to hunt around or carry their own proprietary charging cable to charge their phones. Even in Australia where there is a roughly 50/50 split between Apple and Android users, USB-C cables are far more common.
Having looked around (this is more than just phones) micro USB is still here in volume, even phones. The number of users who consider what the connector is on their phone is small, they just accept it at the moment and get on with life rather than compromising on fashion/price/platform/other more important factor. If it was important then it would be showing up as a filter in parametric searches ;)
Look at the carriers, they dont even list power plug as a specification. Walk into one of their stores, its not completely USB-C and Apple, there is still micro USB still being sold new.
-
The charging cable it a non issue for the vast majority, especially when USB-C is still new/different so few people have them in excess or already in use across the majority of their devices.
This is the thing. I've yet to encounter anyone in the wild that has claimed that USB-C is the be all and end all. It's only the arsehats on the internet.
It is possible to be polite about it ;) having used USB-C and thunderbolt from the "start" I see lots of things to like.
I'm mostly referring to the tech-industry leg-humping youtubers. They get oodles of free new stuff and then shit-can the audience still stuck with legacy stuff. Looking at you, Linus.
With the stabilization of the power delivery standard and its wide supply span USB-C is suited to many of the jobs that previously needed a proprietary supply and/or connector. The key is that uptake has increased to the point that its now a commodity product and USB-C power adapters are cheap enough to be designed in on new products. We're seeing all sorts of "dumb" devices starting to use USB-C as their power source with zero comms, the change has already arrived.
I'd love to see a worldwide de-facto power standard, and some EU legislation requiring it on portable electronics might be all thats needed to get there. That would be a motivation for many people to pick products that will plug into those sources/supplies. But I'm not too bothered if they don't, or what connector is on specific product blah. If the EU mandated USB-C power adapters, allowing arbitrary cable between the supply and the device that would be fine from my point of view too. It would be nice to have at least one part of the chain standardized.
Worst case? EU mandates USB-C on the device, but 5V only adapters without PD negotiation continue to be the norm.
I get your point. All of it can be promising. But at the end of the day, the delivery has been all over the map. Changing their minds with the terminology too much. Nobody knows what they want or what they are buying.
If the EU really wanted to troll everybody (as I suspect they do), they should have chosen the latest lightning connector. Just imagine. :)
-
If the EU really wanted to troll everybody (as I suspect they do), they should have chosen the latest lightning connector. Just imagine. :)
Even if Lightning was the more widespread connector USB-C would have been a better choice due to having better capabilities.
Lightning can only do USB 2.0 480Mbit since it doesn't even have enough pins for USB 3.0. They could have designed it for it since the Lightning connector came out in 2012 while USB 3.0 came out in 2008. But they chose not to. So it essentially has the same capabilities of a micoUSB connector with the addition of being reversible and proprietary under a licensing fee. It also can't deliver as much power as USB-C
This went so far that the Lightning to HDMI dongles (used to connect your tablet to a monitor or projector) actually stream compressed video over USB 2.0 to a iPhone CPU inside the dongle that decompresses the video and sends it out of the video connector. You could see compression artifacts in the resulting video.
This is likely the reason that Apples tablets have already dumped Lightning and went to USB-C
-
What are you even talking about? The NEMA-15 receptacle is absolutely ubiquitous, you will find them everywhere throughout North America. There is nothing prohibiting using something else but absolutely nobody does because all portable appliances and lamps and stuff come with NEMA-15 plugs.
I’m sure the electrical code does require the use of NEMA receptacles and plugs. I doubt there’s any first world country whose electrical code does not mandate the use of specific types of outlets.
-
If the EU really wanted to troll everybody (as I suspect they do), they should have chosen the latest lightning connector. Just imagine. :)
Even if Lightning was the more widespread connector USB-C would have been a better choice due to having better capabilities.
Lightning can only do USB 2.0 480Mbit since it doesn't even have enough pins for USB 3.0. They could have designed it for it since the Lightning connector came out in 2012 while USB 3.0 came out in 2008. But they chose not to. So it essentially has the same capabilities of a micoUSB connector with the addition of being reversible and proprietary under a licensing fee. It also can't deliver as much power as USB-C
This went so far that the Lightning to HDMI dongles (used to connect your tablet to a monitor or projector) actually stream compressed video over USB 2.0 to a iPhone CPU inside the dongle that decompresses the video and sends it out of the video connector. You could see compression artifacts in the resulting video.
This is likely the reason that Apples tablets have already dumped Lightning and went to USB-C
Exactly. Lightning was a great design for the time it was released — nothing that existed at the time was even close to suitable (in the totality of both electrical and mechanical design). USB-C is a great successor to Lightning (and that’s no surprise, given that Apple was closely involved in its design).
The fact that the iPads have switched to USB-C also means the iOS software stack is already completely set up (and battle tested) for USB-C.
The only downside for the iPhone is that a USB-C socket is a bit bigger than a Lightning socket.
-
What are you even talking about? The NEMA-15 receptacle is absolutely ubiquitous, you will find them everywhere throughout North America. There is nothing prohibiting using something else but absolutely nobody does because all portable appliances and lamps and stuff come with NEMA-15 plugs. There are 2 or 3 options for large appliance receptacles, 30-50A 240V stuff like dryers and stoves but that will be a stationary device on a dedicated circuit so it's a total non issue, install the correct cord on the appliance when you buy it, plug it in and forget about it. If you are confused it is because you are making incorrect assumptions having never set foot on the continent.
My assumptions are mostly from Youtube videos where i often seen people have issues with plugging in larger loads. As in they run extension cords from the larger outlets, they then find it is not quite the correct kind of "large outlet" and need a converter to it. I recently rember the Technology Connections video on electric kettles talking about kitchens how having the higher amperage outlets but kettles not using them etc..
Here all our plugs are the same Schuko 230V/16A plug. We run everything from those, from the 10W desk lamp to the 3kW clothes drier. Anything larger is typically 3 phase (Hardwired or IEC 60309)
-
If someone cannot remember the dominat (smart) phones of the 2005 era (17 years ago), they are either very young or lived in an undeveloped area upto then, likely the poster is young and doesn't know the history of the market.
You made out like (smart)phones had USB all along, they really didnt. USB was in widespread consumer use and the phone manufacturers persisted with their proprietary connectors (even making new ones as linked above). Exactly what you and that poster say wouldn't/didn't happen. I'm not picking out some obscure minority brand here, those were the dominant players in the market and they went for profit ahead of standardization/convenience. They weren't all using 5V or USB power for charging which made 3rd party cables a minefield, that changed only with standardization to USB connectors on the phones.
I certainly do. I have a box full of bricks to remind me at any time (already wrote that). At least nokia at some point stopped using a different barrel jack for every new model
It was europe that mandated usb charges in the first place, let's go back to 2010 for micro USB https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_10_1776
And mini usb before that (the RAZR, anybody?)
What would have happened if they didn't is that every major brand would have kept using proprietary connectors and charges, period.
maybe, i say maybe, the eventual flood of chinese phones that really started in 2015 in europe would have harmonized the connector to usb, but let's look at the timeline.
Motorola RAZR 3 with mini usb launched in 2004, so let's assume that before 2004 you could use whatever you wanted
2010 micro usb enforced (my shitty samsung at the time -2011- had micro usb, was the first i had with usb, i had only nokias before that kept using custom - but didn't change it anymore - until the brand died, though the very last ones used usb as well)
2015 first flood of phones from china, let's assume they all used micro usb and that from 2016 major brands would do the switch
more than 10 years for "the market" to adjust.
I also remember that at the time the data cable was mostly an accessory, 20+ euro for the genuine one (who dared use ebay or aliexpress at that time? scams were all over and customer awareness and protection was very low) sure they gave you the charging cable, but not one that would connect to a pc.
As i said before, i welcome this decision from the EU.
And i understand how most users that has a certain flag can not like it, it's just not in their DNA
US: throw a bunch of standards and let the market - or rather the biggest corporation - decide
EU: pick a standard and mandate it - possibly not choosing the best standard
sure it's because i was born and raised in the EU but i prefer how we do things around here
-
The only downside for the iPhone is that a USB-C socket is a bit bigger than a Lightning socket.
upside: they'll have to make thicker phones that won't bend if you hold them wrong
-
They are definitely after Apple. But it's weird, because the new ruling is that all such devices sold in the EU from 2024 onward must have USB-C charging ports, and I read an article that claimed 29% of devices already have USB-C, 21% are Lightning, and the remainder use micro-USB. So those vendors using micro-USB are in the same position as Apple.
current devices or new devices?
The article was rather awful, and did not mention that, or the date at which they took their sample data point.
-
The only downside for the iPhone is that a USB-C socket is a bit bigger than a Lightning socket.
upside: they'll have to make thicker phones that won't bend if you hold them wrong
Which was never an actual problem in real life. Please don’t regurgitate exaggerated BS you read somewhere. (Yes, you could bend an iPhone 6 if you set out to do so. But it wasn’t an issue for anyone who treated their phone with even the most minimal amount of intelligence, like not keeping it in a front pocket of skinny jeans whose pocket bends when sitting. The “problem” was fixed in all subsequent models.)
-
My assumptions are mostly from Youtube videos where i often seen people have issues with plugging in larger loads. As in they run extension cords from the larger outlets, they then find it is not quite the correct kind of "large outlet" and need a converter to it. I recently rember the Technology Connections video on electric kettles talking about kitchens how having the higher amperage outlets but kettles not using them etc..
Here all our plugs are the same Schuko 230V/16A plug. We run everything from those, from the 10W desk lamp to the 3kW clothes drier. Anything larger is typically 3 phase (Hardwired or IEC 60309)
But nobody ever does that except for geeks, electric kettles aren't really a thing here due to the power thing, a few people do import European kettles and rig them up to work but that's far from the norm. Ordinary people just buy the appliances that are available and plug them into the standard outlets which are the only kind available for general use. Kitchens typically have at least two 120V 20A circuits for receptacles, a 240V 50A receptacle for the stove which is down behind the stove and not readily accessible and then modern houses will have dedicated 120V circuits for the dishwasher, microwave, and occasionally the garbage disposal however older houses have these spread across the regular appliance circuits.
So yes, our system is different than the European system, and technically yes there are multiple receptacle types, but anything beyond the 15A NEMA type will be a dedicated circuit that most people are never going to touch or even see. This is necessary due to the fact that our normal branch circuits are only 120V which is impractical for larger loads, our standard clothes dryers for example are 5.5kW and are much larger than the European dryers I've seen. Which is better? Having dealt with both I think they each have their strengths and neither system is a clear winner. Whatever the case it's not confusing, unless you go off the beaten path and do something unusual like using imported appliances.
-
If someone cannot remember the dominat (smart) phones of the 2005 era (17 years ago), they are either very young or lived in an undeveloped area upto then, likely the poster is young and doesn't know the history of the market.
You made out like (smart)phones had USB all along, they really didnt. USB was in widespread consumer use and the phone manufacturers persisted with their proprietary connectors (even making new ones as linked above). Exactly what you and that poster say wouldn't/didn't happen. I'm not picking out some obscure minority brand here, those were the dominant players in the market and they went for profit ahead of standardization/convenience. They weren't all using 5V or USB power for charging which made 3rd party cables a minefield, that changed only with standardization to USB connectors on the phones.
That's quite an assumption. I'm in my mid 40s which certainly doesn't feel "very young" to me and I live in the northwest USA about 6 miles from Microsoft's headquarters so certainly not an undeveloped area and I've never seen a smartphone that didn't charge from a USB plug, either via an onboard connector or an included cable terminating in a USB plug with the proprietary (Apple) connector on the other end. The last phone I owned that had a proprietary charger was a flip phone and that was way back in 2007, prior to that I never had a mobile phone. Once again I'll reiterate that USB became the standard without any intervention from the government at all, the market decided that's what people wanted. There is still no requirement whatsoever on this and yet USB is everywhere.
-
And i understand how most users that has a certain flag can not like it, it's just not in their DNA
US: throw a bunch of standards and let the market - or rather the biggest corporation - decide
EU: pick a standard and mandate it - possibly not choosing the best standard
sure it's because i was born and raised in the EU but i prefer how we do things around here
You have to understand that this country was founded by a bunch of people that escaped overbearing oppressive governments specifically to found a new nation based on freedom from this sort of thing, individual choice and minimal regulation. It's far from perfect but it's something a great many of us hold dear and a fundamental component of our culture. I *hate* being told what to do and dealing with regulations and mandates, it feels like being treated like a small child incapable of making my own choices and there are few things that I find more oppressive and frustrating. I guess maybe someone that had always lived under a government that controls so many aspects of their life wouldn't understand, I don't know. Even my own government feels rather oppressive and mired in rules and regulations these days that I almost wish there was somewhere else to go and get away from it. I understand the need for some rules for things like protecting the environment, rules are a necessary evil but they ARE evil and I hate them.
-
My assumptions are mostly from Youtube videos
So you don’t actually know what you’re talking about. (I’m American and have ample experience with receptacles in USA.)
… where i often seen people have issues with plugging in larger loads. As in they run extension cords from the larger outlets, they then find it is not quite the correct kind of "large outlet" and need a converter to it. I recently rember the Technology Connections video on electric kettles talking about kitchens how having the higher amperage outlets but kettles not using them etc..
You didn’t fully understand what he was saying. He was absolutely correct that nearly all kitchens have (ignoring the 240V outlet for the stove/oven) just 15A sockets, even if the circuit can handle 20A.
He was also saying how theoretically, you could wire a European kettle to a US 240V circuit. But that’s not something normal.
The only time people in USA typically run into problems of insufficient power is in very old houses where the electrical installation is very old and was never upgraded. (Early electrical was fundamentally envisioned for lighting, not appliances.) The last place I lived in USA was like that — built around 1915, with only one circuit for three rooms. Totally fine for lamps, radios, and TVs, but a serious constraint when using air conditioners.
This problem affects old houses in Europe too.
Modern buildings have massively more capacity, by having lots of circuits with lots of outlets.
Here all our plugs are the same Schuko 230V/16A plug.
Except when they’re not.
We run everything from those, from the 10W desk lamp to the 3kW clothes drier. Anything larger is typically 3 phase (Hardwired or IEC 60309)
FWIW, Switzerland has a really elegant system: standard outlets are 10A, but 16A versions exist, and there are also 3-phase sockets in both current capacities. All of the higher-power ones are downwards-compatible. So a standard 10A plug will fit in any of the 4 socket types. It’s not uncommon for things like stoves or old 3-phase clothes dryers or washers to be hard-wired, but they’re often plugged in.
Anyhow, the Swiss system means you don’t need chunky 16A plugs on ordinary appliances, but you can still install an outlet that can supply 16A 3-phase power without creating inconvenience.
-
The only downside for the iPhone is that a USB-C socket is a bit bigger than a Lightning socket.
upside: they'll have to make thicker phones that won't bend if you hold them wrong
Which was never an actual problem in real life. Please don’t regurgitate exaggerated BS you read somewhere. (Yes, you could bend an iPhone 6 if you set out to do so. But it wasn’t an issue for anyone who treated their phone with even the most minimal amount of intelligence, like not keeping it in a front pocket of skinny jeans whose pocket bends when sitting. The “problem” was fixed in all subsequent models.)
should have added a smiley there, come on :)
-
The only downside for the iPhone is that a USB-C socket is a bit bigger than a Lightning socket.
upside: they'll have to make thicker phones that won't bend if you hold them wrong
Which was never an actual problem in real life. Please don’t regurgitate exaggerated BS you read somewhere. (Yes, you could bend an iPhone 6 if you set out to do so. But it wasn’t an issue for anyone who treated their phone with even the most minimal amount of intelligence, like not keeping it in a front pocket of skinny jeans whose pocket bends when sitting. The “problem” was fixed in all subsequent models.)
Actually I've seen this happen first-hand during what would be considered "normal use". People throw phones into bags or keep them in rear pockets all the time. Around the time of the iPhone 6, they were poorly designed, there are simply no other words for it. Not just because of the lack of structural integrity, but widespread issues with failing batteries, poor RF design and LCD's/digitisers that would just stop working over time, not to mention a bunch of them just dying and refusing to power-on because of a faulty component. Apple issued a bunch of recall notices worldwide for the 6 and 6S phones. I've personally had to rebuild/repair several of these phones because of these problems. They were just awful.
-
If someone cannot remember the dominat (smart) phones of the 2005 era (17 years ago), they are either very young or lived in an undeveloped area upto then, likely the poster is young and doesn't know the history of the market.
You made out like (smart)phones had USB all along, they really didnt. USB was in widespread consumer use and the phone manufacturers persisted with their proprietary connectors (even making new ones as linked above). Exactly what you and that poster say wouldn't/didn't happen. I'm not picking out some obscure minority brand here, those were the dominant players in the market and they went for profit ahead of standardization/convenience. They weren't all using 5V or USB power for charging which made 3rd party cables a minefield, that changed only with standardization to USB connectors on the phones.
That's quite an assumption. I'm in my mid 40s which certainly doesn't feel "very young" to me and I live in the northwest USA about 6 miles from Microsoft's headquarters so certainly not an undeveloped area and I've never seen a smartphone that didn't charge from a USB plug, either via an onboard connector or an included cable terminating in a USB plug with the proprietary (Apple) connector on the other end. The last phone I owned that had a proprietary charger was a flip phone and that was way back in 2007, prior to that I never had a mobile phone. Once again I'll reiterate that USB became the standard without any intervention from the government at all, the market decided that's what people wanted. There is still no requirement whatsoever on this and yet USB is everywhere.
Hang on, you're jumping forward past 2005 to 2007 when proprietary connectors on phones were still a thing...
I'll assume it has something to do with early phones that used a variety of barrel plugs. If so, I'm not ready to give law makers any credit for increasing convenience in my life (which is all that this law is about; simple convenience.) I'm certain that makers of smart phones would have included USB ports for communication purposes anyway. And, I'm just as certain that they would have used those ports for charging. No laws required. (For the record, I am not against all laws, just pointless ones that do more harm than good.)
This shows your age very starkly. Mobile phones traditionally had obscure brand (or model) specific connectors for power and serial (or USB) so that you had to buy the accessories from them and only them. In the bad old good old dark days, you couldnt even charge over USB and as the power adapter had a captive cable it was mutually exclusive: charge or transfer data.
That doesn't say anything about his age, I remember well the days when mobile phones had proprietary connectors, but they standardized without any government intervention at all. They did it because it made sense, USB became ubiquitous enough that it was no longer sensible in most cases to use custom connectors. These days Apple is the exception, however even they include a cable that terminates with a standard USB plug so the issue is moot.
USB was widespread well before smartphones used the standard connectors directly:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_Pop-Port
one easily documented example persisted until 2007, which links to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FastPort
continuing to 2010
While USB was in use since 1996 and was ubiquitous in the early 2000's as Microsoft had USB only mice from 2001 onward?
As I already said! So your experience was that phone(s) did have proprietary connectors in 2007. Yet USB was ubiquitous in 2000/2001. The market did not move to USB quickly or see the advantages, they bodged USB in on proprietary connectors rather than using the available mini USB. It was after 2007 with the release of micro USB that movement started and even then the EU didn't like the fractured solutions and moved to speed it up.
-
FWIW, Switzerland has a really elegant system: standard outlets are 10A, but 16A versions exist, and there are also 3-phase sockets in both current capacities. All of the higher-power ones are downwards-compatible. So a standard 10A plug will fit in any of the 4 socket types. It’s not uncommon for things like stoves or old 3-phase clothes dryers or washers to be hard-wired, but they’re often plugged in.
Anyhow, the Swiss system means you don’t need chunky 16A plugs on ordinary appliances, but you can still install an outlet that can supply 16A 3-phase power without creating inconvenience.
The swiss plugs are admittedly very well designed. Tho one of the few countries in Europe where a 16A Schuko plug does not fit. Still the low power non earthed 2.5A "Europlug" does fit, and most things one would travel with do use that plug. It is the most widely compatible plug, since it not only works in all of Europe (except England) but it also works in most of Asia, most of Africa and about half of South America.
In terms of circuits i suppose we are lazy here since we typically put multiple 16A Schuko outlets on a single 16A breaker (10A or 5A are typically just lights). It never seams to be a problem in practice because very few devices pull the full 16A, and even then the breakers do have a fair bit of headroom. A typical house has a lot of circuits anyway. Only commonly seen breakers trip on really heavy loads like old welders or things with hefty big motors.
3 phase plugs are a bit of mess over Europe. So for this reason EU standardized on those big chunky round red colored plugs. Here the old Yugoslavian style 3 phase plug was deprecated in favor of the standard EU plug, most other countries using it did the same. These high power EU plugs are mostly seen in industry, but it is a good step towards agreeing on a standard.
-
I guess maybe someone that had always lived under a government that controls so many aspects of their life wouldn't understand, I don't know. Even my own government feels rather oppressive and mired in rules and regulations these days that I almost wish there was somewhere else to go and get away from it. I understand the need for some rules for things like protecting the environment, rules are a necessary evil but they ARE evil and I hate them.
I live in a country where the government consists of ordinary people and where the majority of the people in the country actually trust the government and feel that the people representing them are making decisions that we would do ourselves. This is also the case in many other countries in the EU. It's not perfect, but it works good enough and all statistics show that people living in the Nordic countries in EU are the happiest, most equal and free people in the world with least corruption etc. And EU is the largest peace project ever that has worked pretty much fine for 70+ years. I'm sorry for people living in oppressive and authoritarian countries. This knee-jerk opposition to government is totally strange to us, where the government actually helps people and makes our lives better. Of course there are some criticism all the time, but this belongs and is encouraged in a democracy. I have followed some of US politics and I can see where your views come from. My personal opinion is that you will never have equal human rights, less poverty and criminality unless you change some of your ways. Now this goes into politics, but it seems it has also much impact on technology. Very interesting how your government swayed forth and back e.g. about net neutrality.
-
I guess maybe someone that had always lived under a government that controls so many aspects of their life wouldn't understand, I don't know. Even my own government feels rather oppressive and mired in rules and regulations these days that I almost wish there was somewhere else to go and get away from it. I understand the need for some rules for things like protecting the environment, rules are a necessary evil but they ARE evil and I hate them.
I live in a country where the government consists of ordinary people and where the majority of the people in the country actually trust the government and feel that the people representing them are making decisions that we would do ourselves. This is also the case in many other countries in the EU. It's not perfect, but it works good enough and all statistics show that people living in the Nordic countries in EU are the happiest, most equal and free people in the world with least corruption etc. And EU is the largest peace project ever that has worked pretty much fine for 70+ years. I'm sorry for people living in oppressive and authoritarian countries. This knee-jerk opposition to government is totally strange to us, where the government actually helps people and makes our lives better. Of course there are some criticism all the time, but this belongs and is encouraged in a democracy. I have followed some of US politics and I can see where your views come from. My personal opinion is that you will never have equal human rights, less poverty and criminality unless you change some of your ways. Now this goes into politics, but it seems it has also much impact on technology. Very interesting how your government swayed forth and back e.g. about net neutrality.
What you describe is essentially Australia (albeit it's much colder there and you have better internet).
Both Finland and Australia are in the top 10 countries having the highest human freedoms.
-
.
-
As I already said! So your experience was that phone(s) did have proprietary connectors in 2007. Yet USB was ubiquitous in 2000/2001. The market did not move to USB quickly or see the advantages, they bodged USB in on proprietary connectors rather than using the available mini USB. It was after 2007 with the release of micro USB that movement started and even then the EU didn't like the fractured solutions and moved to speed it up.
What I remember is pre-smart phones (i.e. anything not iPhone or Android) having a barrel jack for charging and who knows what for data. I never used the data port as there was nothing on the phone to look at. Every Android phone I have known about used USB. For the record, I'm 61, though I do appreciate you finding me youthful.
But none of this, including my age, has much to do with my argument pages back: phones are already moving towards USB C without prodding. Whether or not USB was mandated in the past is irrelevant today. In the end, mandating isn't going to reduce the number of USB cables we need by more than one anyway. I continue to own USB cables of many types because I still own device that require them. Forcing all new connectors to use the same connector isn't going to make all of those old devices go away.
As for your comments about living in a country where we fear the government, that does not describe me. I am actually very progressive. In general I distrust big industry more than the government (though the current crop in Washington seems to have gone far off track.)
My position that is relevant to this thread is that it is easier to make laws than to change them. If we don't need a law, then I vote to not make it in the first place, then we won't have to struggle to change it later. The law in question might seem on the surface like it's going to fix an inconvenience, but I don't believe it will fix anything that wouldn't fix itself without laws.
-
My position that is relevant to this thread is that it is easier to make laws than to change them. If we don't need a law, then I vote to not make it in the first place, then we won't have to struggle to change it later. The law in question might seem on the surface like it's going to fix an inconvenience, but I don't believe it will fix anything that wouldn't fix itself without laws.
Yeah, but you don't get a vote, because it's a different continent.
And it is not just about phones. Its about that sony camera and the gaming console, the bluetooth headphone the portable hair ironing thing, the vibrator of your wife and the rechargeable flying doodad.
Besides, phones stared using the unified interface because the EU was already going to do this for a decade or so.
-
My position that is relevant to this thread is that it is easier to make laws than to change them. If we don't need a law, then I vote to not make it in the first place, then we won't have to struggle to change it later. The law in question might seem on the surface like it's going to fix an inconvenience, but I don't believe it will fix anything that wouldn't fix itself without laws.
Yeah, but you don't get a vote, because it's a different continent.
And it is not just about phones. Its about that sony camera and the gaming console, the bluetooth headphone the portable hair ironing thing, the vibrator of your wife and the rechargeable flying doodad.
Besides, phones stared using the unified interface because the EU was already going to do this for a decade or so.
I'm not surprised that you deliberately overlooked my main point in an effort to continue an argument. That's your option in a forum like this.
Edit: I've already addressed all of your points multiple times in this thread. I'm as tired of repeating myself asa other are tired of hearing me do it.
-
... Australia are in the top 10 countries having the highest human freedoms.
Two words ... Julian Assange.
-
I guess maybe someone that had always lived under a government that controls so many aspects of their life wouldn't understand, I don't know. Even my own government feels rather oppressive and mired in rules and regulations these days that I almost wish there was somewhere else to go and get away from it. I understand the need for some rules for things like protecting the environment, rules are a necessary evil but they ARE evil and I hate them.
I live in a country where the government consists of ordinary people and where the majority of the people in the country actually trust the government and feel that the people representing them are making decisions that we would do ourselves. This is also the case in many other countries in the EU. It's not perfect, but it works good enough and all statistics show that people living in the Nordic countries in EU are the happiest, most equal and free people in the world with least corruption etc. And EU is the largest peace project ever that has worked pretty much fine for 70+ years. I'm sorry for people living in oppressive and authoritarian countries. This knee-jerk opposition to government is totally strange to us, where the government actually helps people and makes our lives better. Of course there are some criticism all the time, but this belongs and is encouraged in a democracy. I have followed some of US politics and I can see where your views come from. My personal opinion is that you will never have equal human rights, less poverty and criminality unless you change some of your ways. Now this goes into politics, but it seems it has also much impact on technology. Very interesting how your government swayed forth and back e.g. about net neutrality.
But the thing is, people are different. Our government is made up of ordinary people too, but there are lots of ordinary people I don't see eye to eye with. I don't want to be mandated to do something just because the majority of people think it's a good idea, I want to make my own choices, I want to take my own risks, I want to look out for myself and live my life as I see fit, I don't want to be dragged down by the majority, I hate it, it's oppressive and suffocating. I'm a grown adult, not a child, I don't need a babysitter, I don't need anyone deciding what's good for me. I can't even pick a side with our government and politics because all of the viable parties are awful and I strongly disagree with all of them on one thing or another. I'd genuinely rather have gridlock than have any of them in control.
-
Hang on, you're jumping forward past 2005 to 2007 when proprietary connectors on phones were still a thing...
Why do you keep bringing up 2005? Who cares about 2005? That's ancient history, I didn't even have a mobile phone that far back, let alone a smartphone and I didn't know anyone that had one until one of my friends got the original iPhone shortly after that came out. Personally I don't consider smartphones to have existed prior to the iPhone. Sure there were a few prototypical devices like Palm and Blackberry but those were esoteric things while the tech was still in its infancy and USB had only been around for a handful of years by that point and still had a lot of rough edges. The concept of using USB for charging only when a data connection was not needed was pretty uncommon but caught on anyway. It was never mandated and still is not mandated though so I don't really get the point you're trying to make. If it's a good idea, it will catch on, and if there are niche applications where it is preferable to have something else, it's good for that to be allowed. We don't need mandates, just buy products that have the features you want, and don't try to force everyone else to have the same thing. It is always better to have choice.
-
Hang on, you're jumping forward past 2005 to 2007 when proprietary connectors on phones were still a thing...
Why do you keep bringing up 2005? Who cares about 2005? That's ancient history, I didn't even have a mobile phone that far back, let alone a smartphone and I didn't know anyone that had one until one of my friends got the original iPhone shortly after that came out. Personally I don't consider smartphones to have existed prior to the iPhone. Sure there were a few prototypical devices like Palm and Blackberry but those were esoteric things while the tech was still in its infancy and USB had only been around for a handful of years by that point and still had a lot of rough edges. The concept of using USB for charging only when a data connection was not needed was pretty uncommon but caught on anyway. It was never mandated and still is not mandated though so I don't really get the point you're trying to make. If it's a good idea, it will catch on, and if there are niche applications where it is preferable to have something else, it's good for that to be allowed. We don't need mandates, just buy products that have the features you want, and don't try to force everyone else to have the same thing. It is always better to have choice.
USB may not be mandated, but it might as well have been, the manufacturers just agreed to commit to doing it before they were forced, https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_09_1049
-
I don't want to be mandated to do something just because the majority of people think it's a good idea, I want to make my own choices, I want to take my own risks, I want to look out for myself and live my life as I see fit, I don't want to be dragged down by the majority, I hate it, it's oppressive and suffocating. I'm a grown adult, not a child, I don't need a babysitter, I don't need anyone deciding what's good for me. I can't even pick a side with our government and politics because all of the viable parties are awful and I strongly disagree with all of them on one thing or another. I'd genuinely rather have gridlock than have any of them in control.
If you had lived over here, you would see how free we are to make our own choices in life. Nobody ever "decided" anything for me. Well something maybe. You had to go to school (but you were free to choose almost any education you wanted). You had to be 18 to do certain things. You have to have a driving license to drive. You can't just take other people's property. Etc. Laws and rules are necessary for a modern society to work and they are mostly common sense, definitely not oppressive, rather supportive. If you are successful in life, you don't even think of the government. It's when you are poor and have bad health that society really steps in here and offers help if you want it. I'm happy to pay my taxes for a better society. Your definition of freedom sounds like some wild fantasy, living in the past when people really had to struggle to get food, fight each other, died young and only a few got lucky and rich. All of this has improved immensely in the last 120 years. The technological development is mind boggling. Nothing of this would have been possible without a society with laws. I would never want to be dragged back to the dark times by conservative and authoritarian powers that fester corruption and inequality.
-
Does the enforcement apply to the USB-C PD (power delivery) negotiation protocol? Trying to remember from Dave's old video, it required a fairly complicated proprietary solution, and couldn't be done with just firmware + phy.
-
I don't want to be mandated to do something just because the majority of people think it's a good idea, I want to make my own choices, I want to take my own risks, I want to look out for myself and live my life as I see fit, I don't want to be dragged down by the majority, I hate it, it's oppressive and suffocating. I'm a grown adult, not a child, I don't need a babysitter, I don't need anyone deciding what's good for me. I can't even pick a side with our government and politics because all of the viable parties are awful and I strongly disagree with all of them on one thing or another. I'd genuinely rather have gridlock than have any of them in control.
If you had lived over here, you would see how free we are to make our own choices in life. Nobody ever "decided" anything for me. Well something maybe. You had to go to school (but you were free to choose almost any education you wanted). You had to be 18 to do certain things. You have to have a driving license to drive. You can't just take other people's property. Etc. Laws and rules are necessary for a modern society to work and they are mostly common sense, definitely not oppressive, rather supportive. If you are successful in life, you don't even think of the government. It's when you are poor and have bad health that society really steps in here and offers help if you want it. I'm happy to pay my taxes for a better society. Your definition of freedom sounds like some wild fantasy, living in the past when people really had to struggle to get food, fight each other, died young and only a few got lucky and rich. All of this has improved immensely in the last 120 years. The technological development is mind boggling. Nothing of this would have been possible without a society with laws. I would never want to be dragged back to the dark times by conservative and authoritarian powers that fester corruption and inequality.
I dont think they will understand it. If the evil government makes a rule that companies cannot dump poison into rivers, half the Americans will go: "I don't want the government to tell me what to do".
They would never even imagine a friendly policeman arriving on a bicycle stopping you and telling you to not forget to turn on the light on yours because you might get injured, shaking hands smiling and go on your way.
But you know, that's the land of the free.
And I'm not going to paste here a list of things that I can legally do here which are illegal there. Like having a beer at 18.
It's like: Hey the government tells me what to buy, instead of "I can charge all my things with the same cable finally"
-
I'm not sure how this turned into an Europeans vs Americans pissing fest, but it's not productive. Probably better to keep it at the local pub where it belongs.
-
I'm not sure how this turned into an Europeans vs Americans pissing fest, but it's not productive. Probably better to keep it at the local pub where it belongs.
It's not, and it's a wrong debate. I'm european and I hate this EU putting its nose everywhere as much if not more than your average american.
But it's not surprising that it triggers a political debate, as the crux of the topic IS political. It's not technical.
-
Does the enforcement apply to the USB-C PD (power delivery) negotiation protocol? Trying to remember from Dave's old video, it required a fairly complicated proprietary solution, and couldn't be done with just firmware + phy.
2. Hand-held mobile phones, tablets, digital cameras, headphones, headsets, handheld
videogame consoles and portable speakers, in so far as they are capable of being
recharged via wired charging at voltages higher than 5 volts or currents higher than 3
amperes or powers higher than 15 watts, shall:
(a) incorporate the USB Power Delivery, as described in the standard EN IEC
62680-1-2:2021 ‘Universal serial bus interfaces for data and power - Part 1-2:
Common components - USB Power Delivery specification’;
(b) ensure that any additional charging protocol allows the full functionality of the
USB Power Delivery referred to in point (a).
-
Hang on, you're jumping forward past 2005 to 2007 when proprietary connectors on phones were still a thing...
Why do you keep bringing up 2005? Who cares about 2005? That's ancient history, I didn't even have a mobile phone that far back, let alone a smartphone and I didn't know anyone that had one until one of my friends got the original iPhone shortly after that came out. Personally I don't consider smartphones to have existed prior to the iPhone. Sure there were a few prototypical devices like Palm and Blackberry but those were esoteric things while the tech was still in its infancy and USB had only been around for a handful of years by that point and still had a lot of rough edges. The concept of using USB for charging only when a data connection was not needed was pretty uncommon but caught on anyway. It was never mandated and still is not mandated though so I don't really get the point you're trying to make. If it's a good idea, it will catch on, and if there are niche applications where it is preferable to have something else, it's good for that to be allowed. We don't need mandates, just buy products that have the features you want, and don't try to force everyone else to have the same thing. It is always better to have choice.
You're the one who keeps adding more specificity....
Did phones have a mess of different charging ports? Yes. Up until 2007 or a little bit after then. Were there lots of portable devices including phones before 2007? Yes.
Was USB ubiquitous before 2007? Yes.
What changed to make manufacturers use USB? micro USB and pending EU mandate.
Saying the market moved to USB on their own is incorrect, it didnt, the market resisted moving to USB and persisted with proprietary connectors until 2007.
Its pretty clear:
Mobile phones traditionally had obscure brand (or model) specific connectors for power and serial (or USB) so that you had to buy the accessories from them and only them. In the bad old good old dark days, you couldnt even charge over USB and as the power adapter had a captive cable it was mutually exclusive: charge or transfer data.
Still true.
-
Does the enforcement apply to the USB-C PD (power delivery) negotiation protocol? Trying to remember from Dave's old video, it required a fairly complicated proprietary solution, and couldn't be done with just firmware + phy.
2. Hand-held mobile phones, tablets, digital cameras, headphones, headsets, handheld
videogame consoles and portable speakers, in so far as they are capable of being
recharged via wired charging at voltages higher than 5 volts or currents higher than 3
amperes or powers higher than 15 watts, shall:
(a) incorporate the USB Power Delivery, as described in the standard EN IEC
62680-1-2:2021 ‘Universal serial bus interfaces for data and power - Part 1-2:
Common components - USB Power Delivery specification’;
(b) ensure that any additional charging protocol allows the full functionality of the
USB Power Delivery referred to in point (a).
Which leaves my worry that 5V x 3A with no PD negotiation will persist as the cheap/lowest common denominator that will become "standard".
-
Which leaves my worry that 5V x 3A with no PD negotiation will persist as the cheap/lowest common denominator that will become "standard".
This is fine. This is specifically so dumber devices can charge without needing extra complexity - you do not need USB PD capability in a headset, for example.
-
Which leaves my worry that 5V x 3A with no PD negotiation will persist as the cheap/lowest common denominator that will become "standard".
This is fine. This is specifically so dumber devices can charge without needing extra complexity - you do not need USB PD capability in a headset, for example.
Yes, the devices do not need it, but without standardized negotiation for high current 5V charging there will still be compatibility issues between charging sources and devices... and the specific worry I keep bringing up:
if devices are the mandate, USB-C connection but the volume/cheap stuff can persist with 5V <3A dumb endpoints
that is not going to deliver reusable and convenient charge anything power adaptors (USB-C PD)
So the claimed motivation to reuse adaptors isnt best served by this.
-
Yep regular 5V non USB-PD will still be around for the simple cases.
It is not a bad thing either. The law is not about forcing cheep chargers to be more performant. There will always be cheap small low wattage chargers on the market because that's all that some people want or need. You bought a charger that is not physically capable of more performance, so this is what you get.
This is more about making the fast chargers interchangeable with each other. Right now your "Qualcomm Quick Charge 4" charger will not fast charge a Apple device or a device that supports "Huawei SuperCharge" or "Samsung Adaptive Fast Charging" or "OnePlus Wash Charge"all those fall back to the usual 5V at 2A or 3A. So you have a fast charge capable charger but it refuses to perform better than a normal slow charger because it doesn't understand what the phone wants it to do. USB-PD that comes with USB-C is what aims to solve this by standardizing on this one protocol. So your Samsung charger could fast charge a Huawei or iPhone or OnePlus
There ware attempts to standardize connectors on smartphones for years before the first iPhone was released. For example HTC (That was making WindowsMobile smartphones back when iOS or Android did not even exist yet) was putting miniUSB connectors on there devices (microUSB didn't exist yet either) and moved on to special 12 pin miniUSB connectors. These new 12 pin versions ware still compatible with the normal 5 pin miniUSB cables but had extra pins that are used to support things like Audio in/out, RS232 (Yes PDAs had those back then) etc.. But the rest of the industry was not impressed and stuck to there weird proprietary connectors.
-
Which leaves my worry that 5V x 3A with no PD negotiation will persist as the cheap/lowest common denominator that will become "standard".
This is fine. This is specifically so dumber devices can charge without needing extra complexity - you do not need USB PD capability in a headset, for example.
Yes, the devices do not need it, but without standardized negotiation for high current 5V charging there will still be compatibility issues between charging sources and devices... and the specific worry I keep bringing up:
if devices are the mandate, USB-C connection but the volume/cheap stuff can persist with 5V <3A dumb endpoints
that is not going to deliver reusable and convenient charge anything power adaptors (USB-C PD)
So the claimed motivation to reuse adaptors isnt best served by this.
For a type-c device, to have 5V available for you, the only necessary electronics is 2x 5.1KOhm resistors between the CC lines and ground. There are also Type C plugs available with only like 6 pins, that can be used for charging only.
-
Whatta Lotta Drama over something so meaningless 😂
-
This is more about making the fast chargers interchangeable with each other. Right now your "Qualcomm Quick Charge 4" charger will not fast charge a Apple device or a device that supports ....
Thanks for those examples, it looks like that Qualcomm has ended up PD compliant so it would charge other devices Apple etc:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quick_Charge#Versions
:) we're getting there.
-
Which leaves my worry that 5V x 3A with no PD negotiation will persist as the cheap/lowest common denominator that will become "standard".
This is fine. This is specifically so dumber devices can charge without needing extra complexity - you do not need USB PD capability in a headset, for example.
Yes, the devices do not need it, but without standardized negotiation for high current 5V charging there will still be compatibility issues between charging sources and devices... and the specific worry I keep bringing up:
if devices are the mandate, USB-C connection but the volume/cheap stuff can persist with 5V <3A dumb endpoints
that is not going to deliver reusable and convenient charge anything power adaptors (USB-C PD)
So the claimed motivation to reuse adaptors isnt best served by this.
For a type-c device, to have 5V available for you, the only necessary electronics is 2x 5.1KOhm resistors between the CC lines and ground. There are also Type C plugs available with only like 6 pins, that can be used for charging only.
I get that its all roses and works perfectly for "low power" 5V only devices, that is the problem as it is a convenient "out" or shortcut for the junk suppliers to meet the regulation in wording but not in spirit. Your 3A 5V result assumes the charger has USB-C, which isn't being mandated!
The EU mandate is allegedly about making people reuse their chargers across more devices. But not all devices will charge with only 5V power. So if they only mandate the device connection end, we will still end up with many incompatible chargers as more dumb 5V <1.5A (anything higher requires some negotiation) supplies are produced and shipped.
The labelling/information about chargers is pretty confusing and often hard to find for consumers, hopefully when USB-C is the only show in town at the other end that will solve its self.
-
New devices that don't have USB type C charging ports will be banned from the EU in a couple of years. It looks like USB-C will be the world standard in due course, thanks to the EU.
As a result, those doing design like I do will be more convinced to go USB-C from on on, rather than opting for micro USB. The directive will be under the EU's notorious Radio Emissions Directive (CE RED). Apple is protesting that enforcing USB-C will stifle innovation.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20220603IPR32196/deal-on-common-charger-reducing-hassle-for-consumers-and-curbing-e-waste (https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20220603IPR32196/deal-on-common-charger-reducing-hassle-for-consumers-and-curbing-e-waste)
Is this a case of too much government control of our technology, or a commonsense approach to fixing a problem?
Good idea or not?
Sorry to get here late, but then the law in about 20 years too late? I mean who won't be making a phone without USBC that is not apple and who having signed up to paying through the nose for apple will buy android and be stuck for a charger. This law feels more like politicking than actually helping, we needed it so long ago that the market has dealt with it by itself now.
-
New devices that don't have USB type C charging ports will be banned from the EU in a couple of years. It looks like USB-C will be the world standard in due course, thanks to the EU.
As a result, those doing design like I do will be more convinced to go USB-C from on on, rather than opting for micro USB. The directive will be under the EU's notorious Radio Emissions Directive (CE RED). Apple is protesting that enforcing USB-C will stifle innovation.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20220603IPR32196/deal-on-common-charger-reducing-hassle-for-consumers-and-curbing-e-waste (https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20220603IPR32196/deal-on-common-charger-reducing-hassle-for-consumers-and-curbing-e-waste)
Is this a case of too much government control of our technology, or a commonsense approach to fixing a problem?
Good idea or not?
Sorry to get here late, but then the law in about 20 years too late? I mean who won't be making a phone without USBC that is not apple and who having signed up to paying through the nose for apple will buy android and be stuck for a charger. This law feels more like politicking than actually helping, we needed it so long ago that the market has dealt with it by itself now.
I realize you hate Apple, but Apple's really not as stupid or as expensive as you think they are, and the people who follow this stuff fully expect the iPhone 14 that will be introduced this fall to have USB-C for charging and data. USB-C is already on the iPad Pro. The only question is whether the iPhone 14 will have an M1 processor (like the iPad Pro), or whether it will have a new A processor with a USB-C interface.
-
New devices that don't have USB type C charging ports will be banned from the EU in a couple of years. It looks like USB-C will be the world standard in due course, thanks to the EU.
As a result, those doing design like I do will be more convinced to go USB-C from on on, rather than opting for micro USB. The directive will be under the EU's notorious Radio Emissions Directive (CE RED). Apple is protesting that enforcing USB-C will stifle innovation.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20220603IPR32196/deal-on-common-charger-reducing-hassle-for-consumers-and-curbing-e-waste (https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20220603IPR32196/deal-on-common-charger-reducing-hassle-for-consumers-and-curbing-e-waste)
Is this a case of too much government control of our technology, or a commonsense approach to fixing a problem?
Good idea or not?
Sorry to get here late, but then the law in about 20 years too late? I mean who won't be making a phone without USBC that is not apple and who having signed up to paying through the nose for apple will buy android and be stuck for a charger. This law feels more like politicking than actually helping, we needed it so long ago that the market has dealt with it by itself now.
I realize you hate Apple, but Apple's really not as stupid or as expensive as you think they are, and the people who follow this stuff fully expect the iPhone 14 that will be introduced this fall to have USB-C for charging and data. USB-C is already on the iPad Pro. The only question is whether the iPhone 14 will have an M1 processor (like the iPad Pro), or whether it will have a new A processor with a USB-C interface.
Angry rant by our resident fanboy aimed at you incoming, I'm sure.
-
New devices that don't have USB type C charging ports will be banned from the EU in a couple of years. It looks like USB-C will be the world standard in due course, thanks to the EU.
As a result, those doing design like I do will be more convinced to go USB-C from on on, rather than opting for micro USB. The directive will be under the EU's notorious Radio Emissions Directive (CE RED). Apple is protesting that enforcing USB-C will stifle innovation.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20220603IPR32196/deal-on-common-charger-reducing-hassle-for-consumers-and-curbing-e-waste (https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20220603IPR32196/deal-on-common-charger-reducing-hassle-for-consumers-and-curbing-e-waste)
Is this a case of too much government control of our technology, or a commonsense approach to fixing a problem?
Good idea or not?
Sorry to get here late, but then the law in about 20 years too late? I mean who won't be making a phone without USBC that is not apple and who having signed up to paying through the nose for apple will buy android and be stuck for a charger. This law feels more like politicking than actually helping, we needed it so long ago that the market has dealt with it by itself now.
I realize you hate Apple, but Apple's really not as stupid or as expensive as you think they are, and the people who follow this stuff fully expect the iPhone 14 that will be introduced this fall to have USB-C for charging and data. USB-C is already on the iPad Pro. The only question is whether the iPhone 14 will have an M1 processor (like the iPad Pro), or whether it will have a new A processor with a USB-C interface.
Whether or not I hate apple was irrelevant. as I said people buying apple will buy apple and have the same connector on each new device, people buying android the same. This is not like 20 years ago when every manufacturer had a different size barrel jack connector and a different polarity and a different voltage, that is when we needed this law, the situation has now resolved itself and they decide to introduce a stupid law to say look how good we are - 20 years later.
-
Whether or not I hate apple was irrelevant. as I said people buying apple will buy apple and have the same connector on each new device, people buying android the same. This is not like 20 years ago when every manufacturer had a different size barrel jack connector and a different polarity and a different voltage, that is when we needed this law, the situation has now resolved itself and they decide to introduce a stupid law to say look how good we are - 20 years later.
It's not just about phones and it's not (entirely..) about Apple. Things are hardly resolved.
-
It's not just about phones and it's not (entirely..) about Apple. Things are hardly resolved.
Yeah, but let’s be realistic: if not for legislators who fall into media-driven trap of hating on Apple, they’d never have enacted this rule.
-
everything today is charged from USB, most charger no longer have a cable, they have a USB socket so to say that this is hardly resolved is silly, christ, even sex toys are supplied without a charger and have a USB socket, what more do you want? Every item I have bought lately that is cheap and has a single lithium cell which most aim to have has a USB socket for charging and is supplied without a charger. Manufacturers have found themselves liberated from the cost of having to supply a charger by simply putting a USB socket on the product.
-
[attachimg=1]
"Universal loader, my ass. I'll get nowhere with this on Zørgbløx23."
-
get that its all roses and works perfectly for "low power" 5V only devices, that is the problem as it is a convenient "out" or shortcut for the junk suppliers to meet the regulation in wording but not in spirit. Your 3A 5V result assumes the charger has USB-C, which isn't being mandated!
The EU mandate is allegedly about making people reuse their chargers across more devices. But not all devices will charge with only 5V power. So if they only mandate the device connection end, we will still end up with many incompatible chargers as more dumb 5V <1.5A (anything higher requires some negotiation) supplies are produced and shipped.
I think it will work better than you expect. Existing non-C chargers will just work the same as they do now, and any new 'cheap' minimal-function chargers ditto. But phones and stuff will require more power than these chargers can supply, and over time people will buy chargers that work with their devices properly. So when the difference between the chargers is 6 hours vs 1 hour to charge a specific model of phone, the users will migrate to buying the more powerful one. Just as now you buy the quick-charger that's compatible with your phone and not the one that isn't. But you can still grab some random one off a shelf and use that in a pinch. The difference is that the phone-specific charger is now going to be a generic one, so you're more likely to splash the cash since it will work with your next phone too, whatever that happens to be.
What I haven't caught yet, unless someone has resolved it, is what happens to wireless chargers. The upcoming regs affect only wired ones, so will wireless chargers with captive plugs (or plugs with captive wireless chargers, if you prefer) be OK? That seems to go against the regs, and I would have expected a mandate that wireless chargers should be powered from a USB-C source. That may seem a trivial thing right now, but wireless charging is the future, if not already the present.
-
from what I have seen any device will charge on any charger. The dumb stuff may be the problem but those are not phones so not covered. But a phone will use whatever charger you throw at it as it will work out what it is or not. As far as I am aware their is one fast charging system, it has several power/voltage levels but as there is a protocol used to negotiate this any charger and and phone are a match. I still do not see how mandating a USB-C socket on every phone helps unless they are mandating more than that but give the ignorant politicians and public a break, it's more complicated than that and we don't want to overly confuse them.
-
As far as I am aware their is one fast charging system, it has several power/voltage levels but as there is a protocol used to negotiate this any charger and and phone are a match. I still do not see how mandating a USB-C socket on every phone helps...
....because USB-C is the only connector which the PD negotiation works on (it has some extra pins to help).
-
And everyone that makes a device that wants to charge faster will use USB-C no need to make a law about that we needed that 20+ years ago. actually unless I have missed out on some new standard fast charging with negotiation between charger and device charged was already on micro USB, I had a phone and a wireless charger on micro USB that did fast charging. The actual connector was irrelevant, it's a USB thing, it would work on a USB B connector if anyone put one on a battery device.
-
As far as I am aware their is one fast charging system, it has several power/voltage levels but as there is a protocol used to negotiate this any charger and and phone are a match.
Perhaps your awareness is lacking. There are several fast-charge systems (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quick_Charge#Other_charging_protocols) and the problem is, AIUI, that the 'fast' bit only works with compatible devices. Use the wrong charger and it will charge, but not fast.
Making them all use USB-C PD means there will be one system where 'fast' will work with whatever is plugged in (that can do fast, obv).
Manufacturers like Samsung and Xiaomi have an interest in not being compatible with other systems, so they're not going to join up unless you make them. Which is what this push is partly about.
-
Not in UK -> https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-61720276 (https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-61720276)
Quote : UK will not copy EU demand for common charging cable
at this point isn't the UK just insisting on doing every opposite of what the EU does?
Pretty much - if the EU mandated breathing oxygen the UK would state that oxygen was for losers and announce the new UK standard for breathing carbon dioxide.
-
As far as I am aware their is one fast charging system, it has several power/voltage levels but as there is a protocol used to negotiate this any charger and and phone are a match.
Perhaps your awareness is lacking. There are several fast-charge systems (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quick_Charge#Other_charging_protocols) and the problem is, AIUI, that the 'fast' bit only works with compatible devices. Use the wrong charger and it will charge, but not fast.
Making them all use USB-C PD means there will be one system where 'fast' will work with whatever is plugged in (that can do fast, obv).
Manufacturers like Samsung and Xiaomi have an interest in not being compatible with other systems, so they're not going to join up unless you make them. Which is what this push is partly about.
Well our ever not very detailed BBC may have missed a lot of the detail of the law but I did not hear anything about standardising on a charging protocol. That is the sort of nuance that politicians miss out on too and end up making useless laws. If all they do is make a law about the connector they have just wasted their time and tax payer money enacting something that is good as saying that phones must always be charged with electricity.
-
....because USB-C is the only connector which the PD negotiation works on (it has some extra pins to help).
I haven't checked whether the current versions support this, but the original version of USB-PD was negotiated over Vbus, and therefore worked with standard USB-A plugs.
Well our ever not very detailed BBC may have missed a lot of the detail of the law but I did not hear anything about standardising on a charging protocol. That is the sort of nuance that politicians miss out on too and end up making useless laws. If all they do is make a law about the connector they have just wasted their time and tax payer money enacting something that is good as saying that phones must always be charged with electricity.
So you haven't bothered to do any research or even read this very thread, then.
-
OK so has the charging standard also been mandated?
-
Whether or not I hate apple was irrelevant. as I said people buying apple will buy apple and have the same connector on each new device, people buying android the same. This is not like 20 years ago when every manufacturer had a different size barrel jack connector and a different polarity and a different voltage, that is when we needed this law, the situation has now resolved itself and they decide to introduce a stupid law to say look how good we are - 20 years later.
OK, let's try this again:
It's not about the phones.
It's not just about the phones.
This is more than just the phones.
More devices are covered byt the law than just the phones.
Not just the phones are covered by this.
More devices have to use USB than just the phones.
The phones are not just the devices this law covers.
-
Where phones go the rest follow :)
-
....because USB-C is the only connector which the PD negotiation works on (it has some extra pins to help).
I haven't checked whether the current versions support this, but the original version of USB-PD was negotiated over Vbus, and therefore worked with standard USB-A plugs.
There was something with comms on the power lines, but it used a slightly different A and B plug variant? Never seen it in the wild so unsure if it was ever used, or has been dropped.
-
Where phones go the rest follow :)
You are pretty much correct. Some electronics parts are only available is VERY tiny micro BGA packages because mobile phones use them. You cannot get them in larger SMD packages. Quite annoying. No technical reason why, other than phones is where the $$$ and volume are.
-
....because USB-C is the only connector which the PD negotiation works on (it has some extra pins to help).
I haven't checked whether the current versions support this, but the original version of USB-PD was negotiated over Vbus, and therefore worked with standard USB-A plugs.
There was something with comms on the power lines, but it used a slightly different A and B plug variant? Never seen it in the wild so unsure if it was ever used, or has been dropped.
Yeah, unfortunately I can't quickly locate a copy of the spec for that. I do see something about 'mechanical marking', so perhaps this meant a notch and a switch inside the port, or something along those lines? Certainly current PD standards use the side channel, and solutions like Qualcomm Quick Charge use the data pins - or at least did, and are now just an alternate protocol coexisting with USB PD. Soon to be dead and gone to kill a chunk of their proprietary charger game.
-
From an out of date USB spec:
In USB Power Delivery, pairs of directly Attached ports negotiate voltage, current and/or direction of power flow over
the USB cable, using VBUS or the CC wire as the communications channel. The mechanisms used, operate
independently of other USB methods used to negotiate power. USB Type-C connectors can support the CC wire as the
communications channel and in addition can support VBUS communication but not concurrently. USB Type-A and USB
Type-B connectors can only support VBUS communication.
Revision: 2.0
Version: 1.3
Release date: 12 January 2017
-
I have an actual technical question related to this.
Consider the situation of EMC testing. When a charger ships with the product, the EMC test is done on the combination of the power supply and the product. If no power supply is shipped, the manufacturer is free to choose anything that is within the nominal specifications.
More than once in EMC testing changing the power supply resulted in the difference between passing and failing, sometimes by a quite large margin.
Therefore, it's likely that as manufacturers continue to not provide a power supply, then they will test with a top-quality "quiet" supply that give them, let's say, 10dB margin in some EMC test. If the top-quality supply sells for $20, while the cheap ones are $2, it's likely that a fair percentage of customers will get the "equivalent" cheap supply. This is already a dynamic with cell phone chargers.
What does this mean for EMC testing?
-
I have an actual technical question related to this.
Consider the situation of EMC testing. When a charger ships with the product, the EMC test is done on the combination of the power supply and the product. If no power supply is shipped, the manufacturer is free to choose anything that is within the nominal specifications.
More than once in EMC testing changing the power supply resulted in the difference between passing and failing, sometimes by a quite large margin.
Therefore, it's likely that as manufacturers continue to not provide a power supply, then they will test with a top-quality "quiet" supply that give them, let's say, 10dB margin in some EMC test. If the top-quality supply sells for $20, while the cheap ones are $2, it's likely that a fair percentage of customers will get the "equivalent" cheap supply. This is already a dynamic with cell phone chargers.
You're quite right. That's a general problem with devices supporting "compatible" hardware. There is a gray area there.
What does this mean for EMC testing?
Not sure it will change much.
If the manufacturer sells a device with a charger, then this exact combination has to be tested.
If it doesn't provide a charger, then it can use whatever off-the-shelf charger gives the best results during testing.
That's already the case for a majority of manufacturers offering charging through USB, whether it is micro-USB or USB-C.
-
If it doesn't provide a charger, then it can use whatever off-the-shelf charger gives the best results during testing.
That's already the case for a majority of manufacturers offering charging through USB, whether it is micro-USB or USB-C.
So it would be OK for them to use one of those audiofool linear USB supplies with over the top filtering to get unreasonably good EMI test results?
-
....because USB-C is the only connector which the PD negotiation works on (it has some extra pins to help).
I haven't checked whether the current versions support this, but the original version of USB-PD was negotiated over Vbus, and therefore worked with standard USB-A plugs.
Nope. You’re probably thinking of the USB BC (battery charging) standard, which does work on type A/B connectors. But USB-PD (which is a separate standard) is USB-C only.
-
....because USB-C is the only connector which the PD negotiation works on (it has some extra pins to help).
I haven't checked whether the current versions support this, but the original version of USB-PD was negotiated over Vbus, and therefore worked with standard USB-A plugs.
Nope. You’re probably thinking of the USB BC (battery charging) standard, which does work on type A/B connectors. But USB-PD (which is a separate standard) is USB-C only.
The current version perhaps. Please look into the original version, which predates USB-C by several years. If you can find the specification they depublished, even better.
-
....because USB-C is the only connector which the PD negotiation works on (it has some extra pins to help).
I haven't checked whether the current versions support this, but the original version of USB-PD was negotiated over Vbus, and therefore worked with standard USB-A plugs.
Nope. You’re probably thinking of the USB BC (battery charging) standard, which does work on type A/B connectors. But USB-PD (which is a separate standard) is USB-C only.
You are wrong.
I quoted the actual USB PD spec above, and here is some more:
1.1 Overview
This specification defines how USB Devices can negotiate for more current and/or higher or lower voltages over the
USB cable (using VBUS or CC wire as the communications channel) than are defined in the [USB 2.0], [USB 3.1], [USB
Type-C 1.2] or [USB BC 1.2] specifications. It allows Devices with greater power requirements than can be met with
today’s specification to get the power they require to operate from VBUS and negotiate with external power sources
(e.g. wall warts). In addition, it allows a Source and Sink to swap power roles such that a Device could supply power
to the Host. For example, a display could supply power to a notebook to charge its Battery.
The USB Power Delivery Specification is guided by the following principles:
1) Works seamlessly with legacy USB Devices
2) Compatible with existing spec-compliant USB cables
3) Minimizes potential damage from non-compliant cables (e.g. ‘Y’ cables etc.)
4) Optimized for low-cost implementations
And
This specification is intended as an extension to the existing [USB 2.0], [USB 3.1], [USB Type-C 1.2] and [USB BC 1.2]
specifications. It addresses only the elements required to implement USB Power Delivery. It is targeted at power
supply vendors, manufacturers of [USB 2.0], [USB 3.1], [USB Type-C 1.2] and [USB BC 1.2] Platforms, Devices and
cable assemblies.
-
....because USB-C is the only connector which the PD negotiation works on (it has some extra pins to help).
I haven't checked whether the current versions support this, but the original version of USB-PD was negotiated over Vbus, and therefore worked with standard USB-A plugs.
Nope. You’re probably thinking of the USB BC (battery charging) standard, which does work on type A/B connectors. But USB-PD (which is a separate standard) is USB-C only.
The current version perhaps. Please look into the original version, which predates USB-C by several years. If you can find the specification they depublished, even better.
I dug up the older version standard pretty easily, but (like over in the FIDO thread) there is such a volume of text across all the versions its hard to find any definitive answer to what is going to be mandated, what is optional, and what is no longer current/deprecated.
-
....because USB-C is the only connector which the PD negotiation works on (it has some extra pins to help).
I haven't checked whether the current versions support this, but the original version of USB-PD was negotiated over Vbus, and therefore worked with standard USB-A plugs.
Nope. You’re probably thinking of the USB BC (battery charging) standard, which does work on type A/B connectors. But USB-PD is a separate standard) is USB-C only.
The current version perhaps. Please look into the original version, which predates USB-C by several years. If you can find the specification they depublished, even better.
You’re right. I’ll be honest, I’d forgotten they ever envisioned it to be on the A and B connectors. The fact that, according to the 1.0 standard (which isn’t hard to find at all), it requires hardware keying on the full-size connectors or a capacitor in the micro-B plug —that is, a cable must expressly identify itself as PD-capable — I question whether any such equipment ever shipped. I can’t even find mention of any PD-capable non-C cables, nor photos of what the connectors even look like.
Renesas, in this document (https://www.renesas.com/us/en/document/whp/usb-power-delivery-changes-game?language=en), says the following as a segue into the USB-C connector:
In practice, because all legacy USB connector types up to this point had a ‘hot’ 5V applied all the time from a source, it was not possible to use the bi-directional power flow capability without resorting to a non-USB compliant arrangement.
You are wrong.
I quoted the actual USB PD spec above, and here is some more:
1.1 Overview
This specification defines how USB Devices can negotiate for more current and/or higher or lower voltages over the
USB cable (using VBUS or CC wire as the communications channel) than are defined in the [USB 2.0], [USB 3.1], [USB
Type-C 1.2] or [USB BC 1.2] specifications. It allows Devices with greater power requirements than can be met with
today’s specification to get the power they require to operate from VBUS and negotiate with external power sources
(e.g. wall warts). In addition, it allows a Source and Sink to swap power roles such that a Device could supply power
to the Host. For example, a display could supply power to a notebook to charge its Battery.
The USB Power Delivery Specification is guided by the following principles:
1) Works seamlessly with legacy USB Devices
2) Compatible with existing spec-compliant USB cables
3) Minimizes potential damage from non-compliant cables (e.g. ‘Y’ cables etc.)
4) Optimized for low-cost implementations
And
This specification is intended as an extension to the existing [USB 2.0], [USB 3.1], [USB Type-C 1.2] and [USB BC 1.2]
specifications. It addresses only the elements required to implement USB Power Delivery. It is targeted at power
supply vendors, manufacturers of [USB 2.0], [USB 3.1], [USB Type-C 1.2] and [USB BC 1.2] Platforms, Devices and
cable assemblies.
None of that contradicts it requiring USB-C, since every single one of those standards is orthogonal to the others, and can be implemented with or without support for the other standards.
-
Perhaps you would share with the class rather than jabbing that it's easily found.
-
Well our ever not very detailed BBC may have missed a lot of the detail of the law but I did not hear anything about standardising on a charging protocol. That is the sort of nuance that politicians miss out on too and end up making useless laws. If all they do is make a law about the connector they have just wasted their time and tax payer money enacting something that is good as saying that phones must always be charged with electricity.
You do realize that politicians don't actually write the laws themselves? They have staff, lawyers and professional expert advisors who actually do know what is involved. So, really, the law won't be about just the connector. I expect it to run to many pages of technical details.
-
As far as I am aware their is one fast charging system, it has several power/voltage levels but as there is a protocol used to negotiate this any charger and and phone are a match. I still do not see how mandating a USB-C socket on every phone helps...
....because USB-C is the only connector which the PD negotiation works on (it has some extra pins to help).
Yep the USB-C connector is part of how USB-PD works.
The problem with the higher fast charging rates is that the voltages and currents are becoming so high that arcing can become a significant problem. Especially on the latest standard that supports up to 48V 5A. You can genuinely weld steel using those power levels, or can actually kill a lot of general purpose relays. This is because mechanically disconnecting such a DC power line in can draw a good few millimeters of an arc. This would happen inside the USB connector when you unplug it during charging, the tiny pins would not survive that. If you are particularly unlucky the arc might even move over onto neighboring pins
So for this reason the USB-C connector has the CC1 and CC2 pins that are physically shorter. This way they only come into contact once all the power and ground pins have made contact. When unplugging these pins get interrupted first, telling the host to instantly cut the power and device to instantly stop drawing power, that way once the power pins start separating they are not carrying current anymore, and so no arc forms.
That being said the USB-C connector specification does not strictly require USB-PD support. It is optional much like other features like USB 3.0 or any of the fancy alternate modes for DisplayPort,Thunderbolt..etc. Heck technically it doesn't even require USB 2.0 since one possible use is analog audio, making it a glorified headphone jack.
-
Where phones go the rest follow :)
You are pretty much correct. Some electronics parts are only available is VERY tiny micro BGA packages because mobile phones use them. You cannot get them in larger SMD packages. Quite annoying. No technical reason why, other than phones is where the $$$ and volume are.
Off topic, but there is a reason: flip-chip style CSPs are much cheaper for the manufacturer because there is a much lower packaging cost - no wirebonds, lead frames, overmolding, etc to deal with. “Just” melt some solder balls on the pads and you are done.
-
None of that contradicts it requiring USB-C, since every single one of those standards is orthogonal to the others, and can be implemented with or without support for the other standards.
You love to unequivocally tell others they are wrong but can't handle it when you are, eh. You said:
Nope. You’re probably thinking of the USB BC (battery charging) standard, which does work on type A/B connectors. But USB-PD is a separate standard) is USB-C only.
The fact is the spec explicitly says it's designed to work on non-USB-C. More from the spec:
The USB Power Delivery specification assumes certified USB cables as defined in this specification or in the [USB 2.0],
[USB 3.1], or [USB Type-C 1.2] specifications.
For USB Type-A and USB Type-B connectors the existence of a large number of non-compliant legacy cables,
particularly ‘Y’ and ‘W’ cables are problematic. These kinds of cables, in combination with the higher voltages that PD
can deliver, have the potential to permanently damage the user’s equipment. PD defines mechanisms to detect USB
Type-A and USB Type-B PD capable cables.
For USB Type-C connectors, PD uses the certified USB cables and associated detection mechanisms as defined in [USB
Type-C 1.2].
Tooks, you were wrong - PD was specified to work over USB-A and USB-B as well.
-
None of that contradicts it requiring USB-C, since every single one of those standards is orthogonal to the others, and can be implemented with or without support for the other standards.
You love to unequivocally tell others they are wrong but can't handle it when you are, eh. You said:
And you conveniently just ignore that I replied to the two of you who pointed out my error:
You’re right. I’ll be honest, I’d forgotten they ever envisioned it to be on the A and B connectors. The fact that, according to the 1.0 standard (which isn’t hard to find at all), it requires hardware keying on the full-size connectors or a capacitor in the micro-B plug —that is, a cable must expressly identify itself as PD-capable — I question whether any such equipment ever shipped. I can’t even find mention of any PD-capable non-C cables, nor photos of what the connectors even look like.
So not only can I “handle” it, I readily admit when I’m wrong.
My statement that the PD standard is orthogonal to the other standards you cited is correct.
-
Perhaps you would share with the class rather than jabbing that it's easily found.
For me, googling "usb pd specification 1.0" brought this up on the first page of results:
https://caxapa.ru/thumbs/342141/USB_PD_V1_0-20120705-final.pdf
-
Also, I found this while searching, and found it interesting and think you might, too: https://microchipsupport.force.com/s/article/Why-UPD1001-UPD1002-are-not-recommended-for-new-designs-2
Why UPD1001/UPD1002 are not recommended for new designs
Nov 27, 2017
Problem Description:
Microchip launched components UPD1001 and UPD1002 which claim USB Power Delivery support but these products should generally not be used for development of new products due to their obsolescence.
Solution:
UPD1001 and UPD1002 were developed and released in accordance to the USB Power Delivery specification revision 1.0. USB Power Delivery 1.0 defined a methodology to implement serial packet messaging via AC-coupled signaling upon the VBUS conductor on USB Type-A and USB Type-B cables, for the purpose of careful negotiation of power up to 100W (including raising VBUS voltage up to 20V). This methodology also required the utility of new USB Type-A and USB Type-B cables and interconnects.
However, the USB Type-C specification was released shortly after the first USB Power Delivery 1.0 controller products were launched, and USB Power Delivery 1.0 is not supported on USB Type-C. A new USB Power Delivery revision 2.0 specification was created in order to support the USB Type-C cable/connectors which entirely changed the physical layer of the standard and made USB Power Delivery 1.0 products obsolete.
While USB Power Delivery 1.0 controllers can still be found available to purchase, these should not be used for development of new products because the USB Type-A/B cables and connectors which are required to support USB Power Delivery 1.0 are no longer available for purchase, and there is no capacity to interoperate with USB Type-C or USB Power Delivery 2.0 products on the market.
So while it remains true that USB PD was originally envisioned to run on (modified) legacy USB connectors, the fact that it was such a fleeting and obscure thing explains why I assumed it was always USB-C-only.
-
Perhaps you would share with the class rather than jabbing that it's easily found.
For me, googling "usb pd specification 1.0" brought this up on the first page of results:
https://caxapa.ru/thumbs/342141/USB_PD_V1_0-20120705-final.pdf (https://caxapa.ru/thumbs/342141/USB_PD_V1_0-20120705-final.pdf)
Also usb-if:
https://www.usb.org/document-library/usb-power-delivery (https://www.usb.org/document-library/usb-power-delivery)
-
Right, but that’s for the current PD standard. The issue was finding V1.0, which is no longer on the USB-IF site.
-
Perhaps you would share with the class rather than jabbing that it's easily found.
For me, googling "usb pd specification 1.0" brought this up on the first page of results:
https://caxapa.ru/thumbs/342141/USB_PD_V1_0-20120705-final.pdf
Thank you - Google being Google that did not appear in ten pages of results of very similar search terms.
-
I hear you. It is maddening how the results can be totally different depending on where you are, what browser or OS you use, or trivial differences in wording.
-
So, I see it requires special cables (not that USB-C is any different, really, to cover the different power classes) and, worse, sockets with switches.
Indeed, it seems USB-PD is for practical matters USB-C only, whether that be C-to-C or fixed on the supply side. I suppose this is why the likes of Qualcomm QC took off initially.
-
I have an actual technical question related to this.
Consider the situation of EMC testing. When a charger ships with the product, the EMC test is done on the combination of the power supply and the product. If no power supply is shipped, the manufacturer is free to choose anything that is within the nominal specifications.
More than once in EMC testing changing the power supply resulted in the difference between passing and failing, sometimes by a quite large margin.
Therefore, it's likely that as manufacturers continue to not provide a power supply, then they will test with a top-quality "quiet" supply that give them, let's say, 10dB margin in some EMC test. If the top-quality supply sells for $20, while the cheap ones are $2, it's likely that a fair percentage of customers will get the "equivalent" cheap supply. This is already a dynamic with cell phone chargers.
You're quite right. That's a general problem with devices supporting "compatible" hardware. There is a gray area there.
What does this mean for EMC testing?
Not sure it will change much.
If the manufacturer sells a device with a charger, then this exact combination has to be tested.
If it doesn't provide a charger, then it can use whatever off-the-shelf charger gives the best results during testing.
That's already the case for a majority of manufacturers offering charging through USB, whether it is micro-USB or USB-C.
commercial emc is a piece of cake at these power levels, if I can get a 5V 1A to pass military standards first time then anyone making battery charger circuitry in the phone that cannot pass commercial with any supply is not fit for their job.
-
I have an actual technical question related to this.
Consider the situation of EMC testing. When a charger ships with the product, the EMC test is done on the combination of the power supply and the product. If no power supply is shipped, the manufacturer is free to choose anything that is within the nominal specifications.
More than once in EMC testing changing the power supply resulted in the difference between passing and failing, sometimes by a quite large margin.
Therefore, it's likely that as manufacturers continue to not provide a power supply, then they will test with a top-quality "quiet" supply that give them, let's say, 10dB margin in some EMC test. If the top-quality supply sells for $20, while the cheap ones are $2, it's likely that a fair percentage of customers will get the "equivalent" cheap supply. This is already a dynamic with cell phone chargers.
You're quite right. That's a general problem with devices supporting "compatible" hardware. There is a gray area there.
What does this mean for EMC testing?
Not sure it will change much.
If the manufacturer sells a device with a charger, then this exact combination has to be tested.
If it doesn't provide a charger, then it can use whatever off-the-shelf charger gives the best results during testing.
That's already the case for a majority of manufacturers offering charging through USB, whether it is micro-USB or USB-C.
commercial emc is a piece of cake at these power levels, if I can get a 5V 1A to pass military standards first time then anyone making battery charger circuitry in the phone that cannot pass commercial with any supply is not fit for their job.
There is a reason why chargers are made in Asia. EMC is just printing on the case. No company in US or EU will be allowed to manufacture and sell what they can do. This way distributor can just say it was a bad batch, or any other cheap excuse with no consequences even if something happens.
They commonly omit almost all filtering till it works somehow.
I for example have one charger so noisy when I connect it to the phone it just totally messes up the touchscreen (do this to multiple phones)
-
I for example have one charger so noisy when I connect it to the phone it just totally messes up the touchscreen (do this to multiple phones)
It doesn’t take much, and is in no way limited to cheaply made chargers: back in 2007, when the original iPhone came out, using the same Dock connector that they’d been using on the iPod for 4 years (around 3 of which with USB charging), Apple released a new USB charger woth the iPhone, because the iPod USB chargers were too noisy and messed up the touchscreens.
I have an Amazon brand 10-port charger that causes touchscreen problems too. Eh, at least it’s OK for charging power banks and running my clock…
-
Perhaps you would share with the class rather than jabbing that it's easily found.
For me, googling "usb pd specification 1.0" brought this up on the first page of results:
https://caxapa.ru/thumbs/342141/USB_PD_V1_0-20120705-final.pdf (https://caxapa.ru/thumbs/342141/USB_PD_V1_0-20120705-final.pdf)
Also usb-if:
https://www.usb.org/document-library/usb-power-delivery (https://www.usb.org/document-library/usb-power-delivery)
Right, but that’s for the current PD standard. The issue was finding V1.0, which is no longer on the USB-IF site.
If you download/open that it does contain the legacy specifications alongside the newest details, which is why I couldn't determine if that part was still supported/current.
-
I actually skimmed the 1.0 and 2.0 versions side by side last night. The 2.0 is certainly still active. It’s just not used very widely. I did find a Xiaomi charger using it, and one single USB socket on Digi-Key for it.
-
I have an actual technical question related to this.
Consider the situation of EMC testing. When a charger ships with the product, the EMC test is done on the combination of the power supply and the product. If no power supply is shipped, the manufacturer is free to choose anything that is within the nominal specifications.
More than once in EMC testing changing the power supply resulted in the difference between passing and failing, sometimes by a quite large margin.
Therefore, it's likely that as manufacturers continue to not provide a power supply, then they will test with a top-quality "quiet" supply that give them, let's say, 10dB margin in some EMC test. If the top-quality supply sells for $20, while the cheap ones are $2, it's likely that a fair percentage of customers will get the "equivalent" cheap supply. This is already a dynamic with cell phone chargers.
You're quite right. That's a general problem with devices supporting "compatible" hardware. There is a gray area there.
What does this mean for EMC testing?
Not sure it will change much.
If the manufacturer sells a device with a charger, then this exact combination has to be tested.
If it doesn't provide a charger, then it can use whatever off-the-shelf charger gives the best results during testing.
That's already the case for a majority of manufacturers offering charging through USB, whether it is micro-USB or USB-C.
commercial emc is a piece of cake at these power levels, if I can get a 5V 1A to pass military standards first time then anyone making battery charger circuitry in the phone that cannot pass commercial with any supply is not fit for their job.
There is a reason why chargers are made in Asia. EMC is just printing on the case. No company in US or EU will be allowed to manufacture and sell what they can do. This way distributor can just say it was a bad batch, or any other cheap excuse with no consequences even if something happens.
They commonly omit almost all filtering till it works somehow.
I for example have one charger so noisy when I connect it to the phone it just totally messes up the touchscreen (do this to multiple phones)
I was reffering to the compatibility of the phone and power supply and the phones ability to meet the regulations every time with any USB brick supply, if the USB power supply fails in it's own right then that is nothing to do with the phone. So any properly designed phone will pass EMC regs will pass with any properly designed USB brick. So having to supply a USB brick to meet regs is no excuse for making you buy a USB brick with the phone.
Last time I was in an EMC chamber the first words out of the mouth of the test engineer after we turned it on was: is it on?
-
I was reffering to the compatibility of the phone and power supply and the phones ability to meet the regulations every time with any USB brick supply, if the USB power supply fails in it's own right then that is nothing to do with the phone. So any properly designed phone will pass EMC regs will pass with any properly designed USB brick. So having to supply a USB brick to meet regs is no excuse for making you buy a USB brick with the phone.
Last time I was in an EMC chamber the first words out of the mouth of the test engineer after we turned it on was: is it on?
It should be two separate devices.
Isn't it one of the original purposes of EMC to "guarantee" you can plug the device into the socket, and any phone into any charger?
But you test every device separately
I expect there is some reference USB PD against it phones are tested the same way as is standardized mains for testing
-
I was reffering to the compatibility of the phone and power supply and the phones ability to meet the regulations every time with any USB brick supply, if the USB power supply fails in it's own right then that is nothing to do with the phone. So any properly designed phone will pass EMC regs will pass with any properly designed USB brick. So having to supply a USB brick to meet regs is no excuse for making you buy a USB brick with the phone.
Last time I was in an EMC chamber the first words out of the mouth of the test engineer after we turned it on was: is it on?
It should be two separate devices.
Isn't it one of the original purposes of EMC to "guarantee" you can plug the device into the socket, and any phone into any charger?
But you test every device separately
I expect there is some reference USB PD against it phones are tested the same way as is standardized mains for testing
I bolded the relevant statements.
First, as opposed to the specifics of phones, consider the general case of any appliance with any appropriate generic power supply.
There are a few cases we can discuss:
1. A specific appliance provided with a specific power supply.
2. A specific appliance provided without a power supply.
3. A power supply tested as a separate product.
Case 1:
A system of some kind is designed and specified. The power supply is chosen for various reasons such as cost, availability, power, EMC levels, other standards, etc. The rest of the system is designed to whatever function it provides. The combination system is tested at an accredited EMC lab. The power supply and the appliance are electrically coupled, and appropriate tests are performed.
Case 2:
A system of some kind is designed and specified. The power supply is left out of the provided system for various reasons. Cost, etc. The system must be powered to operate, so a power supply is used. To the extent possible, the power supply is left out of the EMC tests. Therefore, other variations of the EMC test procedure are used. For instance, in Case 1 the LISN connects to the AC lines of the AC-powered power supply. In this case, the LISN connects to the DC lines between the two. This is a very different EMC situation, typically requiring additional filtering on the DC input of the appliance.
Case 3:
A power supply is designed for generic applications. It is EMC tested with some type of load. However, obviously not all combinations of loads can be tested. For instance, consider that the power supply has a switcher at some frequency. The load may be other switchers and any range of frequencies and draw characteristics, some of which may cause the power supply to have EMC problems that weren't found in the EMC lab.
Simon's statement fails at the term "properly". What defines that? In Europe, it's basically the CE mark. This doesn't mean some particular combination will pass.
Miyuki's statement fails at the term "guarantee". The EMC standards are meant to prevent one system from interfering with another. These systems could be two internal parts, which is where the system test comes in, or two independent systems, which is the purpose of both emissions and immunity testing. In the case of plugging in the power supply, the test is done to some generic loads. However, the specific load of the appliance may be out of the range that a specific power supply was tested to.
In general I have two takeaways:
1. It's a nice idea. There will be unintended consequences.
2. Is this really the biggest issue that could be addressed with e-waste?
-
I think this is likely to have similar unintended consequences, the inevitable result of technologically illiterate bureaucrats trying to legislate technology. Device power requirements vary widely, and USB-C is still a mess of different incomplete implementations. I could plug my work macbook into a USB-C charger for a phone and the plug would fit but it wouldn't work. The law requiring devices to be sold with a choice with or without the power adapter just means that in effect the power adapter will be an extra cost accessory rather than something included. I don't think we'll see devices sans charger suddenly dropping in price to account for that. Instead devices that include the charger will just cost more.
Inevitably, the next piece of legislation will require certain basic capabilities to be implemented by all ports and all cables!
-
[...]
2. Is this really the biggest issue that could be addressed with e-waste?
Well... do we really want to take the Replaceable Batteries, Expandable Memory, etc., discussion again?
It always ends with one group thinking it is OK to replace phones every 3 years so it's OK to weld them shut... and might as well lump headphones and chargers in with that, just recycle it all. While another group would like to be able to keep them running for 5, 7, 10, or more years, and keep using older accessories even if they do upgrade.
-
its just a port, no one is gonna make you make it power distribution compatible, so long you don't claim false advertising
Really all you need is 5V-1A , market demand will handle the rest
so long they don't push IC's we are OK, that connector shit is just so fucking annoying. If you are someone that NEEDS backups then you end up with way too many fucking cables. Because they break. They break unless you are a liar.
I am tired of being foiled by shitty little bits of bent metal.
-
its just a port, no one is gonna make you make it power distribution compatible
They are if you want to charge at more than 15W.
-
then you just add a fast charge port with optional charger using whatever connector you want, I don't think it says exclusive, just compatible.
I think the idea is that you don't get completely fucked by little bitty pieces of metal
-
then you just add a fast charge port with optional charger using whatever connector you want, I don't think it says exclusive, just compatible.
No.
2. Hand-held mobile phones, tablets, digital cameras, headphones, headsets, handheld
videogame consoles and portable speakers, in so far as they are capable of being
recharged via wired charging at voltages higher than 5 volts or currents higher than 3
amperes or powers higher than 15 watts, shall:
(a) incorporate the USB Power Delivery, as described in the standard EN IEC
62680-1-2:2021 ‘Universal serial bus interfaces for data and power - Part 1-2:
Common components - USB Power Delivery specification’;
(b) ensure that any additional charging protocol allows the full functionality of the
USB Power Delivery referred to in point (a).
-
then you just add a fast charge port with optional charger using whatever connector you want, I don't think it says exclusive, just compatible.
I think the idea is that you don't get completely fucked by little bitty pieces of metal
I remember a friend having a Nokia phone that had a silly arrangement of having a USB port for data transfer but no charging. For charging you had to use the proprietary tiny barrel jack that the charger it comes with has. Why they did this i have no idea.
Having multiple connector just makes the internal design more annoying. Besides since USB-C is the current widely adopted standard means that any other connector you add would be considered a proprietary connector that is not compatible with what is out there right now.
I had to turn away people wanting to have there iphone charged on multiple occasions because i did not have the appropriate cable, as i am a android user. I did have a charger with a USB-A port that can supply many amps of 5V juice, i had a PC next to me that has one, i had a car cigarette plug charger that has one etc.. But it is no use sine without a lightning cable i can't get the 5V pixies into my friends phone.
This is why charger standardization requires the whole chain to take part. You need a charger that can be told to give the 20V fast charging when wanted, you need a cable and connector that can safely transfer this amount of power and you need the device to have the matching port and implement the compatible protocol so that it knows how to tell the charger to give it the 20V spicy pixies. But since devices go towards having just one port for everything it is nice if the port can do other stuff like USB 3.0
-
Charge port standardisation is a really good thing, and is 10 years late. :horse:
Better late than never....
-
Better late than never....
"Let the market decide" :horse:
-
that's a serious part dependence and manufacturer preference. The little bit of metal I can understand, but making power IC specifics is crazy. I figure more variation in power circuits is better. I guess there are alot of manufacturers but come on :wtf:
this just seems authoritarian now, talk about stifling power system design :wtf:
some consortium is gonna get fat off this stuff and engineers are gonna get brain dead :palm: the same person probobly wanted to do this with USB 1.0 and now we have something much more advanced because it was not regulated and there is competition. Who is gonna put R&D money into this shit when there is some bureaucrat calling all the shots? When is the last time you saw a company say 'hey.. maybe we can convince a international legislative body to justify our R&D". What planet these people from?
the connector is like a building code for door size, while messing with the circuit is like saying 'the door must be made of this wood or else, no other materials are allowed, and don't you dare fuck around trying to make better hinges'.
And when I think about it, its foolish of me to think that we are at 'peak interconnect' right now, there is probably innovation to be made there, its just an esoteric field of study that few understand and study, but its the easiest one to assume that its just a piece of metal. I guess i'm just angry at constantly having to look for cables.
The thing is, the most useful data is generated from users, so when you are field testing different connectors and supply topologies all the time, you learn stuff on a small scale, vs trying to make global changes. You ever fill out a global change paper in manufacturing? bedlam²
on the plus side, if someone invents a better connector, you can make this plan look like stone age fascism. Kinda like having dial up when everyone has cable.
-
actually I am convinced that this is retarded now, study a interconnects catalog to see innovation in interconnects, for instance very impressive connectors that are are not sensitive to alignment (1mm play for a 400A connection!).
and thats just something I randomly stumbled onto on digikey the other day. USB C is gonna look like knob and wire in the future
-
"Let the market decide" :horse:
1) Market already settled on USB-C
2) Regulator agrees, and pushes the remaining resisting bad actors for the forseeable future, avoiding waste of resources for futile OEM agenda.
3) Regulator is smarter than usual, and lets USB consortium free to handle a compatible sucessor
4) if you wanna push your new standard foward, you'll have to argue with USB consortium how it is backwards and forwards compatible with all the usb-C hardware out there, and what added value it provides towards the standard.
Makes sense.
And more important, it sets the precedent as a warning to every company seeking to foolishly monopolize/monetize the design of a critical interconnect in the future: MAKE IT BLOODY OPEN, SO IT CAN BE ADOPTED BY OTHERS, and is an actual interconnect, and not just a waste of resources !! Winner takes it all.
Interconnects, as the nme suggests are meant to INTER CONNECT, not to bar from compatibility by using planned incompatibility as a tool for OEMs
-
"Let the market decide" :horse:
1) Market already settled on USB-C
2) Regulator agrees, and pushes the remaining resisting bad actors for the forseeable future, avoiding waste of resources for futile OEM agenda.
3) Regulator is smarter than usual, and lets USB consortium free to handle a compatible sucessor
4) if you wanna push your new standard foward, you'll have to argue with USB consortium how it is backwards and forwards compatible with all the usb-C hardware out there, and what added value it provides towards the standard.
Makes sense.
And more important, it sets the precedent as a warning to every company seeking to foolishly monopolize/monetize a critical interconnect in the future: MAKE IT BLOODY OPEN, SO IT CAN BE ADOPTED BY OTHERS, and is an actual interconnect, and not just a waste of resources !! Winner takes it all.
But wouldn't all that just turn the USB consortium into the very same monster that everyone (apparently) hates?
Asking for a friend.
-
If it gets slower than regulator writers, it will lose it's legitimation by regulators, yes.
That's kind of difficult to achieve, but probably doable.
-
"Let the market decide" :horse:
1) Market already settled on USB-C
For smartphones and high end laptops. There are many, many other gadgets that still use mini, micro or something else, which i why i welcome the decision of "everything USB-C", especially now that simpler,cheaper connecors that just expose USB 2.0 or power are widely available from even the "brand" distributors, which you are forced to use sometimes.
-
I guess maybe someone that had always lived under a government that controls so many aspects of their life wouldn't understand, I don't know. Even my own government feels rather oppressive and mired in rules and regulations these days that I almost wish there was somewhere else to go and get away from it. I understand the need for some rules for things like protecting the environment, rules are a necessary evil but they ARE evil and I hate them.
I live in a country where the government consists of ordinary people and where the majority of the people in the country actually trust the government and feel that the people representing them are making decisions that we would do ourselves. This is also the case in many other countries in the EU. It's not perfect, but it works good enough and all statistics show that people living in the Nordic countries in EU are the happiest, most equal and free people in the world with least corruption etc. And EU is the largest peace project ever that has worked pretty much fine for 70+ years. I'm sorry for people living in oppressive and authoritarian countries. This knee-jerk opposition to government is totally strange to us, where the government actually helps people and makes our lives better. Of course there are some criticism all the time, but this belongs and is encouraged in a democracy. I have followed some of US politics and I can see where your views come from. My personal opinion is that you will never have equal human rights, less poverty and criminality unless you change some of your ways. Now this goes into politics, but it seems it has also much impact on technology. Very interesting how your government swayed forth and back e.g. about net neutrality.
What you describe is essentially Australia (albeit it's much colder there and you have better internet).
Both Finland and Australia are in the top 10 countries having the highest human freedoms.
I wouldn't say that. Australia is quite authoritarian compared to much of Europe, especially Scandinavia. The last two years have proven that. Whether it was proportionate, or not is another matter and is off-topic.
If someone cannot remember the dominat (smart) phones of the 2005 era (17 years ago), they are either very young or lived in an undeveloped area upto then, likely the poster is young and doesn't know the history of the market.
You made out like (smart)phones had USB all along, they really didnt. USB was in widespread consumer use and the phone manufacturers persisted with their proprietary connectors (even making new ones as linked above). Exactly what you and that poster say wouldn't/didn't happen. I'm not picking out some obscure minority brand here, those were the dominant players in the market and they went for profit ahead of standardization/convenience. They weren't all using 5V or USB power for charging which made 3rd party cables a minefield, that changed only with standardization to USB connectors on the phones.
That's quite an assumption. I'm in my mid 40s which certainly doesn't feel "very young" to me and I live in the northwest USA about 6 miles from Microsoft's headquarters so certainly not an undeveloped area and I've never seen a smartphone that didn't charge from a USB plug, either via an onboard connector or an included cable terminating in a USB plug with the proprietary (Apple) connector on the other end. The last phone I owned that had a proprietary charger was a flip phone and that was way back in 2007, prior to that I never had a mobile phone. Once again I'll reiterate that USB became the standard without any intervention from the government at all, the market decided that's what people wanted. There is still no requirement whatsoever on this and yet USB is everywhere.
Hang on, you're jumping forward past 2005 to 2007 when proprietary connectors on phones were still a thing...
I'll assume it has something to do with early phones that used a variety of barrel plugs. If so, I'm not ready to give law makers any credit for increasing convenience in my life (which is all that this law is about; simple convenience.) I'm certain that makers of smart phones would have included USB ports for communication purposes anyway. And, I'm just as certain that they would have used those ports for charging. No laws required. (For the record, I am not against all laws, just pointless ones that do more harm than good.)
This shows your age very starkly. Mobile phones traditionally had obscure brand (or model) specific connectors for power and serial (or USB) so that you had to buy the accessories from them and only them. In the bad old good old dark days, you couldnt even charge over USB and as the power adapter had a captive cable it was mutually exclusive: charge or transfer data.
That doesn't say anything about his age, I remember well the days when mobile phones had proprietary connectors, but they standardized without any government intervention at all. They did it because it made sense, USB became ubiquitous enough that it was no longer sensible in most cases to use custom connectors. These days Apple is the exception, however even they include a cable that terminates with a standard USB plug so the issue is moot.
USB was widespread well before smartphones used the standard connectors directly:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_Pop-Port
one easily documented example persisted until 2007, which links to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FastPort
continuing to 2010
While USB was in use since 1996 and was ubiquitous in the early 2000's as Microsoft had USB only mice from 2001 onward?
As I already said! So your experience was that phone(s) did have proprietary connectors in 2007. Yet USB was ubiquitous in 2000/2001. The market did not move to USB quickly or see the advantages, they bodged USB in on proprietary connectors rather than using the available mini USB. It was after 2007 with the release of micro USB that movement started and even then the EU didn't like the fractured solutions and moved to speed it up.
Does it really matter? Smartphones only became really popular, after the market had standardised on USB charging. Those who got phones with proprietary connectors were the early adopters.
Regarding the original topic: I have no love for the EU, or Apple, but it does seem a bit foolish mandating something which is already defacto. There are areas where legislation is necessary, such as minimum efficiency standards for lamps, as incandescent lamps didn't just cause excess pollution, but also gave consumers a raw deal, but this isn't on of them.
-
...
Regarding the original topic: I have no love for the EU, or Apple, but it does seem a bit foolish mandating something which is already defacto. There are areas where legislation is necessary, such as minimum efficiency standards for lamps, as incandescent lamps didn't just cause excess pollution, but also gave consumers a raw deal, but this isn't on of them.
:o
Why should laps have required efficiency? It should be an informed decision on what is better for you.
The incandescent lamp ban brought more harm than good.
When it came, there was no reasonable replacement for most uses readily available. CCFL was environmentally worse than Incandescent.
And today led light fixtures are way better so no one buys incandescent even when they are currently again widely available. "for special purposes"
Mandatory USB C/PD is on the other way a good thing, same as a unified EV charger. Look at Tesla, which can offer cars with that port in the EU, whereas in the US you have separate systems, even when now you can use converters, but it is not without issue
-
...
Regarding the original topic: I have no love for the EU, or Apple, but it does seem a bit foolish mandating something which is already defacto. There are areas where legislation is necessary, such as minimum efficiency standards for lamps, as incandescent lamps didn't just cause excess pollution, but also gave consumers a raw deal, but this isn't on of them.
:o
Why should laps have required efficiency? It should be an informed decision on what is better for you.
The incandescent lamp ban brought more harm than good.
When it came, there was no reasonable replacement for most uses readily available. CCFL was environmentally worse than Incandescent.
And today led light fixtures are way better so no one buys incandescent even when they are currently again widely available. "for special purposes"
Mandatory USB C/PD is on the other way a good thing, same as a unified EV charger. Look at Tesla, which can offer cars with that port in the EU, whereas in the US you have separate systems, even when now you can use converters, but it is not without issue
How is CCFL environmentally worse than incandescent? It's got nothing to do with the mercury, because the lamp contains <5mg and more is released through burning extra coal, to power incandescent, even before other nasties such as CO2 are concerned.
The free market was tried and people still bought incandescent due to the cheaper upfront cost, but ended up paying more in the long run in higher energy bills.
-
How is CCFL environmentally worse than incandescent? It's got nothing to do with the mercury, because the lamp contains <5mg and more is released through burning extra coal, to power incandescent, even before other nasties such as CO2 are concerned.
The free market was tried and people still bought incandescent due to the cheaper upfront cost, but ended up paying more in the long run in higher energy bills.
Simple, people who were forced to buy one, won't buy expensive durable ones, but cheap ones, which in reality fail after about that same time as incandescents
It contains way more stuff than a tiny amount of mercury, you have that driver board and so.
And heat produced is most of the time not wasted in European conditions, so just more use of electric heaters.
There were plenty of cases where CCFL just did not make sense.
I know people are dumb and hate changes, but most people used them in cases where it makes sense to use such light.
-
No such thing as free market, its all regulated by politics in tandem with big gangster bisniss as it always was, Its a big club, and you aint in it!.
USB-C? obviously should not be enforced by dictate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhqPHQcVeH0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhqPHQcVeH0)
-
For those who argue against standardising: why not allow "the market" to decide the wall outlets? Both the mechanical shape and the voltage/current should be up to "the market"! It would be great to have the freedom of installing exactly the optimal kind of wall outlet everywhere, unencumbered by bureaucracy? >:D
-
For those who argue against standardising: why not allow "the market" to decide the wall outlets? Both the mechanical shape and the voltage/current should be up to "the market"! It would be great to have the freedom of installing exactly the optimal kind of wall outlet everywhere, unencumbered by bureaucracy? >:D
Come on, it limits innovation. With higher voltage you have less losses. Plus they can make smaller contacts now than all those years ago.
Also, responsible customers will choose the safe outlets, let's delete the safety requirements.
-
For those who argue against standardising: why not allow "the market" to decide the wall outlets? Both the mechanical shape and the voltage/current should be up to "the market"! It would be great to have the freedom of installing exactly the optimal kind of wall outlet everywhere, unencumbered by bureaucracy? >:D
Come on, it limits innovation. With higher voltage you have less losses. Plus they can make smaller contacts now than all those years ago.
Also, responsible customers will choose the safe outlets, let's delete the safety requirements.
Yep imagine how fast our kettles could boil water if only there was a company with the balls to say screw this pissant 230V standard outlet and make a kettle that runs directly from medium voltage transmission line power. Those 22kV could carry 350kW over the same 16A wires. Sure you might not have the outlet for it right know, but for a low one time fee they can send over a technician to install there revolutionary next generation outlet in your very own kitchen.
But isn't 22kV like really dangerous? Sure it might require a bit more care, but that's why you sign the waiver that the installation technician brings along conveniently. It is after all the consumers choice to use this revolutionary new technology that lets them boil a kettle in 5 seconds flat. The consumers know what they want, not some tight assed bureaucrat that thinks this high of a power is somehow 'too dangerous'
-
ROFL! :-DD
I might go for one of those 22kV kettles! - I would absolutely be a responsible customer and ask my children to stay out of the kitchen when I make tea!
-
How is CCFL environmentally worse than incandescent? It's got nothing to do with the mercury, because the lamp contains <5mg and more is released through burning extra coal, to power incandescent, even before other nasties such as CO2 are concerned.
The free market was tried and people still bought incandescent due to the cheaper upfront cost, but ended up paying more in the long run in higher energy bills.
Simple, people who were forced to buy one, won't buy expensive durable ones, but cheap ones, which in reality fail after about that same time as incandescents
It contains way more stuff than a tiny amount of mercury, you have that driver board and so.
And heat produced is most of the time not wasted in European conditions, so just more use of electric heaters.
There were plenty of cases where CCFL just did not make sense.
I know people are dumb and hate changes, but most people used them in cases where it makes sense to use such light.
No CFLs last much longer than incandescent. The driver circuit is simple and even the cheap ones outlast incandescent.
I live in Europe and can confirm the heat is wasted. It's now summer and the extra heat is unwelcome and in winter, I'd rather use cheap natural gas, than expensive resistive heating.
Yes CFL didn't make any sense in some applications such as in an oven, or when it's briefly turned on for short lengths of time, but they're fine for most things.
-
If someone cannot remember the dominant (smart) phones of the 2005 era (17 years ago), they are either very young or lived in an undeveloped area upto then, likely the poster is young and doesn't know the history of the market.
You made out like (smart)phones had USB all along, they really didnt. USB was in widespread consumer use and the phone manufacturers persisted with their proprietary connectors (even making new ones as linked above). Exactly what you and that poster say wouldn't/didn't happen. I'm not picking out some obscure minority brand here, those were the dominant players in the market and they went for profit ahead of standardization/convenience. They weren't all using 5V or USB power for charging which made 3rd party cables a minefield, that changed only with standardization to USB connectors on the phones.
That's quite an assumption. I'm in my mid 40s which certainly doesn't feel "very young" to me and I live in the northwest USA about 6 miles from Microsoft's headquarters so certainly not an undeveloped area and I've never seen a smartphone that didn't charge from a USB plug, either via an onboard connector or an included cable terminating in a USB plug with the proprietary (Apple) connector on the other end. The last phone I owned that had a proprietary charger was a flip phone and that was way back in 2007, prior to that I never had a mobile phone. Once again I'll reiterate that USB became the standard without any intervention from the government at all, the market decided that's what people wanted. There is still no requirement whatsoever on this and yet USB is everywhere.
Hang on, you're jumping forward past 2005 to 2007 when proprietary connectors on phones were still a thing...
I'll assume it has something to do with early phones that used a variety of barrel plugs. If so, I'm not ready to give law makers any credit for increasing convenience in my life (which is all that this law is about; simple convenience.) I'm certain that makers of smart phones would have included USB ports for communication purposes anyway. And, I'm just as certain that they would have used those ports for charging. No laws required. (For the record, I am not against all laws, just pointless ones that do more harm than good.)
This shows your age very starkly. Mobile phones traditionally had obscure brand (or model) specific connectors for power and serial (or USB) so that you had to buy the accessories from them and only them. In the bad old good old dark days, you couldnt even charge over USB and as the power adapter had a captive cable it was mutually exclusive: charge or transfer data.
That doesn't say anything about his age, I remember well the days when mobile phones had proprietary connectors, but they standardized without any government intervention at all. They did it because it made sense, USB became ubiquitous enough that it was no longer sensible in most cases to use custom connectors. These days Apple is the exception, however even they include a cable that terminates with a standard USB plug so the issue is moot.
USB was widespread well before smartphones used the standard connectors directly:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_Pop-Port
one easily documented example persisted until 2007, which links to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FastPort
continuing to 2010
While USB was in use since 1996 and was ubiquitous in the early 2000's as Microsoft had USB only mice from 2001 onward?
As I already said! So your experience was that phone(s) did have proprietary connectors in 2007. Yet USB was ubiquitous in 2000/2001. The market did not move to USB quickly or see the advantages, they bodged USB in on proprietary connectors rather than using the available mini USB. It was after 2007 with the release of micro USB that movement started and even then the EU didn't like the fractured solutions and moved to speed it up.
Does it really matter? Smartphones only became really popular, after the market had standardised on USB charging. Those who got phones with proprietary connectors were the early adopters.
Regarding the original topic: I have no love for the EU, or Apple, but it does seem a bit foolish mandating something which is already defacto. There are areas where legislation is necessary, such as minimum efficiency standards for lamps, as incandescent lamps didn't just cause excess pollution, but also gave consumers a raw deal, but this isn't on of them.
Sure, IF you only want to talk about smartphones.
That is what I keep separating, and people keep adding back in.
When was USB ubiquitous? 2000 ish
When were phones with USB charging ubiquitous? not until the late 200x's
Phones, regardless of smartness or not.
To try and frame the history of phones or portable electronics to only mass market smartphones is nonsense.
If you want to talk about mass market smartphones, why didn't they all have USB since they entered the market after USB was already ubiquitous? Apple in particular is still a hold out. The open market has not settled or solved this.
-
Yep imagine how fast our kettles could boil water if only there was a company with the balls to say screw this pissant 230V standard outlet and make a kettle that runs directly from medium voltage transmission line power. Those 22kV could carry 350kW over the same 16A wires. Sure you might not have the outlet for it right know, but for a low one time fee they can send over a technician to install there revolutionary next generation outlet in your very own kitchen.
But isn't 22kV like really dangerous? Sure it might require a bit more care, but that's why you sign the waiver that the installation technician brings along conveniently. It is after all the consumers choice to use this revolutionary new technology that lets them boil a kettle in 5 seconds flat. The consumers know what they want, not some tight assed bureaucrat that thinks this high of a power is somehow 'too dangerous'
22kV should do it in much less than 5 seconds. A mere 400V does it in 10 seconds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDLw1Rx_cAI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDLw1Rx_cAI)
-
actually I am convinced that this is retarded now, study a interconnects catalog to see innovation in interconnects, for instance very impressive connectors that are are not sensitive to alignment (1mm play for a 400A connection!).
and thats just something I randomly stumbled onto on digikey the other day. USB C is gonna look like knob and wire in the future
Of course. And what about devices that would embed ONLY wireless charging in the future? Why force them to implement a physical connection? Getting rid of connectors altogether for mobile devices does make things much better for reliability and waterproofing.
As to USB charging per se, as others have pointed out, USB-C is a very complex mess and it's impossible that any device would implement all of it (at least concerning the power delivery part), so that would mean a possibly degraded charging when using it with a random charger. Which means, users can't expect the same performance from all "compatible" chargers. But that's already the case.
And, apart from Apple (which may be the main target at the moment?), most recent mobile devices DO already have USB connection for charging. The most recent ones do HAVE USB-C, but there still are some micro-USB out there. But guess what? Who cares, all you need is a fricking CABLE to connect it to any USB charging port. You may again just not get the best charging performance depending on the charger itself, but it'll work.
Anyway...
-
And what about devices that would embed ONLY wireless charging in the future? Why force them to implement a physical connection?
Why indeed? To ask another why, why haven't you read the actual proposal?
-
If someone cannot remember the dominant (smart) phones of the 2005 era (17 years ago), they are either very young or lived in an undeveloped area upto then, likely the poster is young and doesn't know the history of the market.
You made out like (smart)phones had USB all along, they really didnt. USB was in widespread consumer use and the phone manufacturers persisted with their proprietary connectors (even making new ones as linked above). Exactly what you and that poster say wouldn't/didn't happen. I'm not picking out some obscure minority brand here, those were the dominant players in the market and they went for profit ahead of standardization/convenience. They weren't all using 5V or USB power for charging which made 3rd party cables a minefield, that changed only with standardization to USB connectors on the phones.
That's quite an assumption. I'm in my mid 40s which certainly doesn't feel "very young" to me and I live in the northwest USA about 6 miles from Microsoft's headquarters so certainly not an undeveloped area and I've never seen a smartphone that didn't charge from a USB plug, either via an onboard connector or an included cable terminating in a USB plug with the proprietary (Apple) connector on the other end. The last phone I owned that had a proprietary charger was a flip phone and that was way back in 2007, prior to that I never had a mobile phone. Once again I'll reiterate that USB became the standard without any intervention from the government at all, the market decided that's what people wanted. There is still no requirement whatsoever on this and yet USB is everywhere.
Hang on, you're jumping forward past 2005 to 2007 when proprietary connectors on phones were still a thing...
I'll assume it has something to do with early phones that used a variety of barrel plugs. If so, I'm not ready to give law makers any credit for increasing convenience in my life (which is all that this law is about; simple convenience.) I'm certain that makers of smart phones would have included USB ports for communication purposes anyway. And, I'm just as certain that they would have used those ports for charging. No laws required. (For the record, I am not against all laws, just pointless ones that do more harm than good.)
This shows your age very starkly. Mobile phones traditionally had obscure brand (or model) specific connectors for power and serial (or USB) so that you had to buy the accessories from them and only them. In the bad old good old dark days, you couldnt even charge over USB and as the power adapter had a captive cable it was mutually exclusive: charge or transfer data.
That doesn't say anything about his age, I remember well the days when mobile phones had proprietary connectors, but they standardized without any government intervention at all. They did it because it made sense, USB became ubiquitous enough that it was no longer sensible in most cases to use custom connectors. These days Apple is the exception, however even they include a cable that terminates with a standard USB plug so the issue is moot.
USB was widespread well before smartphones used the standard connectors directly:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_Pop-Port
one easily documented example persisted until 2007, which links to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FastPort
continuing to 2010
While USB was in use since 1996 and was ubiquitous in the early 2000's as Microsoft had USB only mice from 2001 onward?
As I already said! So your experience was that phone(s) did have proprietary connectors in 2007. Yet USB was ubiquitous in 2000/2001. The market did not move to USB quickly or see the advantages, they bodged USB in on proprietary connectors rather than using the available mini USB. It was after 2007 with the release of micro USB that movement started and even then the EU didn't like the fractured solutions and moved to speed it up.
Does it really matter? Smartphones only became really popular, after the market had standardised on USB charging. Those who got phones with proprietary connectors were the early adopters.
Regarding the original topic: I have no love for the EU, or Apple, but it does seem a bit foolish mandating something which is already defacto. There are areas where legislation is necessary, such as minimum efficiency standards for lamps, as incandescent lamps didn't just cause excess pollution, but also gave consumers a raw deal, but this isn't on of them.
Sure, IF you only want to talk about smartphones.
That is what I keep separating, and people keep adding back in.
When was USB ubiquitous? 2000 ish
When were phones with USB charging ubiquitous? not until the late 200x's
Phones, regardless of smartness or not.
To try and frame the history of phones or portable electronics to only mass market smartphones is nonsense.
If you want to talk about mass market smartphones, why didn't they all have USB since they entered the market after USB was already ubiquitous? Apple in particular is still a hold out. The open market has not settled or solved this.
It took awhile for USB to become widespread on phones. That isn't an argument for government legislation. The market got there in the end, even if it did take awhile.
-
It took awhile for USB to become widespread on phones. That isn't an argument for government legislation. The market got there in the end, even if it did take awhile.
It just needed to be mandated from the EU in the late 2000s (i don't want to bother looking for the article again.)
-
I was reffering to the compatibility of the phone and power supply and the phones ability to meet the regulations every time with any USB brick supply, if the USB power supply fails in it's own right then that is nothing to do with the phone. So any properly designed phone will pass EMC regs will pass with any properly designed USB brick. So having to supply a USB brick to meet regs is no excuse for making you buy a USB brick with the phone.
Last time I was in an EMC chamber the first words out of the mouth of the test engineer after we turned it on was: is it on?
It should be two separate devices.
Isn't it one of the original purposes of EMC to "guarantee" you can plug the device into the socket, and any phone into any charger?
But you test every device separately
I expect there is some reference USB PD against it phones are tested the same way as is standardized mains for testing
I bolded the relevant statements.
First, as opposed to the specifics of phones, consider the general case of any appliance with any appropriate generic power supply.
There are a few cases we can discuss:
1. A specific appliance provided with a specific power supply.
2. A specific appliance provided without a power supply.
3. A power supply tested as a separate product.
Case 1:
A system of some kind is designed and specified. The power supply is chosen for various reasons such as cost, availability, power, EMC levels, other standards, etc. The rest of the system is designed to whatever function it provides. The combination system is tested at an accredited EMC lab. The power supply and the appliance are electrically coupled, and appropriate tests are performed.
Case 2:
A system of some kind is designed and specified. The power supply is left out of the provided system for various reasons. Cost, etc. The system must be powered to operate, so a power supply is used. To the extent possible, the power supply is left out of the EMC tests. Therefore, other variations of the EMC test procedure are used. For instance, in Case 1 the LISN connects to the AC lines of the AC-powered power supply. In this case, the LISN connects to the DC lines between the two. This is a very different EMC situation, typically requiring additional filtering on the DC input of the appliance.
Case 3:
A power supply is designed for generic applications. It is EMC tested with some type of load. However, obviously not all combinations of loads can be tested. For instance, consider that the power supply has a switcher at some frequency. The load may be other switchers and any range of frequencies and draw characteristics, some of which may cause the power supply to have EMC problems that weren't found in the EMC lab.
Simon's statement fails at the term "properly". What defines that? In Europe, it's basically the CE mark. This doesn't mean some particular combination will pass.
Miyuki's statement fails at the term "guarantee". The EMC standards are meant to prevent one system from interfering with another. These systems could be two internal parts, which is where the system test comes in, or two independent systems, which is the purpose of both emissions and immunity testing. In the case of plugging in the power supply, the test is done to some generic loads. However, the specific load of the appliance may be out of the range that a specific power supply was tested to.
In general I have two takeaways:
1. It's a nice idea. There will be unintended consequences.
2. Is this really the biggest issue that could be addressed with e-waste?
I'll try to make it even simpler. Radiated emissions failures are of the device under test. If the phone passes radiated it has passed. It also needs to pass conducted. This is easily done if the phone circuitry that let's face it is a 5V/3.7V DC/DC. If that passes it has passed. The reason it passed was that there was enough filtering and capacitance in the power input to not draw power in spikes at some frequency but to draw power "as DC". If you are drawing power smoothly then as long as the power brick you plug into meets requirements you should be fine, there should not be any interaction. The power brick in turn will have enough output capacitance that some spiky current draw should not have adverse effects on the regulation or send it into some weird frenzy of radiated or conducted emissions.
If the power brick is shit and the combination of power brick and compliant phone fail, that has nothing to do with the phone manufacturer and they don't have to give a toss or supply a brick just in case. As far as I am aware there are no widespread cases of people having issues.
-
As far as I am aware there are no widespread cases of people having issues.
Actually no widespread cases of people reporting issues, which is somewhat different.
A common issue with USB power supplies is screwing up of touch screens. My bulk supply, which I used to think was pretty damn good, does this - a phone plugged in doesn't respond to touch properly, although I never actually noticed since it was hard to use the phone with a short cable so I always unplugged to use. But a Garmin SatNav was the same, and bad enough that I was on the verge of returning it as complete shit before I realised it was the PSU.
Apparently that PSU isn't a unique one-off. Another one would screw up my scope when it powered the lights over the bench, regardless of what I was probing or how. Took a while to track that one down as well, and I'm supposed to know about this kind of thing, so what's your average non-techy user supposed to notice?
I might also refer you to Powerline adapters, which really annoy RF fans but no-one else notices - another case where lack of reports doesn't mean lack of an issue.
-
Have any of these adapters been properly EMC tested? I don't know what the standards would have done but I would hope you put a range of loads on the adapter. If they are passing tests but causing an issue well then legally everyone is in the clear and the legislators need to go and have another think about how to deal with it.
-
I have no idea! They are, of course, made in China so any CE mark would be suspect even if it existed :)
However, I don't think that's relevant - the point was that these are examples of problems that don't result in mass complaints, so the lack of complaints can't be taken as an indicator of no issues.
-
It took awhile for USB to become widespread on phones. That isn't an argument for government legislation. The market got there in the end, even if it did take awhile.
It just needed to be mandated from the EU in the late 2000s (i don't want to bother looking for the article again.)
No it didn’t. If they had mandated it back then, it wouldn’t have been USB-C and we’d now be stuck with and obsolete standard. This is precisely why state intervention is bad.
-
For the historic context, micro USB wasn't mandated by the EU back then (2009). It was an MoU submitted by the mobile phone industry after the EU started thinking about a standard charging port: https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_09_1049.
-
I have no idea! They are, of course, made in China so any CE mark would be suspect even if it existed :)
However, I don't think that's relevant - the point was that these are examples of problems that don't result in mass complaints, so the lack of complaints can't be taken as an indicator of no issues.
You keep missing the point. If the tests are not robust enough then even a "matched pair" of phone and charger could cause an issue if the issue does not present itself during testing. If it is as bad as say a phone screen going haywire with a certain charger then someone did not do it right in validation. It's like saying that you cannot buy a lap top power supply unless it is the same supply that was tested with the same laptop.
-
I have no idea! They are, of course, made in China so any CE mark would be suspect even if it existed :)
However, I don't think that's relevant - the point was that these are examples of problems that don't result in mass complaints, so the lack of complaints can't be taken as an indicator of no issues.
You keep missing the point. If the tests are not robust enough then even a "matched pair" of phone and charger could cause an issue if the issue does not present itself during testing. If it is as bad as say a phone screen going haywire with a certain charger then someone did not do it right in validation. It's like saying that you cannot buy a lap top power supply unless it is the same supply that was tested with the same laptop.
None of the cheap power bricks are tested.
Maybe some branded (Apple, Lenovo, Dell) might be, but still, they are commonly "optimized" after that point
Plus you have plenty of counterfeited ones and you have no idea until you open them
You can buy a charger that looks almost or even exactly the same as the original and find a life threatening mess inside.
And almost every generic one is something crazy, what cannot pass not just EMC but basic safety rules
-
I have no idea! They are, of course, made in China so any CE mark would be suspect even if it existed :)
However, I don't think that's relevant - the point was that these are examples of problems that don't result in mass complaints, so the lack of complaints can't be taken as an indicator of no issues.
You keep missing the point. If the tests are not robust enough then even a "matched pair" of phone and charger could cause an issue if the issue does not present itself during testing. If it is as bad as say a phone screen going haywire with a certain charger then someone did not do it right in validation. It's like saying that you cannot buy a lap top power supply unless it is the same supply that was tested with the same laptop.
None of the cheap power bricks are tested.
Maybe some branded (Apple, Lenovo, Dell) might be, but still, they are commonly "optimized" after that point
Plus you have plenty of counterfeited ones and you have no idea until you open them
You can buy a charger that looks almost or even exactly the same as the original and find a life threatening mess inside.
And almost every generic one is something crazy, what cannot pass not just EMC but basic safety rules
Yep, yep, yep.
And for someone who claims being so good at EMC that all their devices pass without a single issue, I found their answer a bit odd.
-
Have any of these adapters been properly EMC tested? I don't know what the standards would have done but I would hope you put a range of loads on the adapter. If they are passing tests but causing an issue well then legally everyone is in the clear and the legislators need to go and have another think about how to deal with it.
I know for a fact that Apple’s earliest USB chargers, the ones sold for iPods, could cause touchscreen problems on the iPhone, which is why Apple released a new iPhone USB Charger with the iPhone. All of them are absolutely EMC tested and don’t really spare any expenses inside.
(For what it’s worth, I think I used the iPod charger on my iPhone without issue, but it’s been 15 years so don’t hold me to it!!)
-
I have no idea! They are, of course, made in China so any CE mark would be suspect even if it existed :)
However, I don't think that's relevant - the point was that these are examples of problems that don't result in mass complaints, so the lack of complaints can't be taken as an indicator of no issues.
You keep missing the point. If the tests are not robust enough then even a "matched pair" of phone and charger could cause an issue if the issue does not present itself during testing. If it is as bad as say a phone screen going haywire with a certain charger then someone did not do it right in validation. It's like saying that you cannot buy a lap top power supply unless it is the same supply that was tested with the same laptop.
None of the cheap power bricks are tested.
Maybe some branded (Apple, Lenovo, Dell) might be, but still, they are commonly "optimized" after that point
Plus you have plenty of counterfeited ones and you have no idea until you open them
You can buy a charger that looks almost or even exactly the same as the original and find a life threatening mess inside.
And almost every generic one is something crazy, what cannot pass not just EMC but basic safety rules
Simple solution, regulate imports. Why the hell do we accept all this crap from china? duty tax the crap out of it and start testing devices and banning the shit. In the UK getting trading standards to look at something is impossible and you only here of them trying to track down stock after it caused a fire.
-
Have any of these adapters been properly EMC tested? I don't know what the standards would have done but I would hope you put a range of loads on the adapter. If they are passing tests but causing an issue well then legally everyone is in the clear and the legislators need to go and have another think about how to deal with it.
I know for a fact that Apple’s earliest USB chargers, the ones sold for iPods, could cause touchscreen problems on the iPhone, which is why Apple released a new iPhone USB Charger with the iPhone. All of them are absolutely EMC tested and don’t really spare any expenses inside.
(For what it’s worth, I think I used the iPod charger on my iPhone without issue, but it’s been 15 years so don’t hold me to it!!)
Something seriously wrong there, tested or not, wasn't there a recall of laptop charger due to people getting shocks off the earth pins. No point in companies using compatibility as an excuse to sell shit when it is just shit and dangerous shit at that.
-
It is required for these imported products to have a CE mark.
The problem is that anyone can just slap a CE on it and they don't get in any trouble unless shit really hits the fan that those products are burning down houses, so they show up demanding to see the paperwork that shows this is CE compliant.
Everything is mace in China these days, even the big brand name stuff. But the brand has a name to uphold so they require there products to be made to a better quality level. The no brand stuff you find on AliExpress just has to be cheap to sell since everyone sorts by price.
I like buying cheap chinese crap because it is so cheap. I just do a bit of research on the stuff i buy to make sure it is not terrible and sometimes open it up to check if there is anything really wrong about it. I know i am buying crap, so i set my expectations accordingly.
-
Ha!!
https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/17/23171402/universal-charger-standard-usbc-bernie-sanders-markey-elizabeth-warren (https://www.theverge.com/2022/6/17/23171402/universal-charger-standard-usbc-bernie-sanders-markey-elizabeth-warren)
-
Not in UK -> https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-61720276 (https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-61720276)
Quote : UK will not copy EU demand for common charging cable
The U.K. is a standards taker not a maker. No one cares what they mandate these days.
-
The US better makes sure to solve their fuckup in EV charging connectors....
-
Have any of these adapters been properly EMC tested? I don't know what the standards would have done but I would hope you put a range of loads on the adapter. If they are passing tests but causing an issue well then legally everyone is in the clear and the legislators need to go and have another think about how to deal with it.
I know for a fact that Apple’s earliest USB chargers, the ones sold for iPods, could cause touchscreen problems on the iPhone, which is why Apple released a new iPhone USB Charger with the iPhone. All of them are absolutely EMC tested and don’t really spare any expenses inside.
(For what it’s worth, I think I used the iPod charger on my iPhone without issue, but it’s been 15 years so don’t hold me to it!!)
Something seriously wrong there, tested or not, wasn't there a recall of laptop charger due to people getting shocks off the earth pins. No point in companies using compatibility as an excuse to sell shit when it is just shit and dangerous shit at that.
What are you talking about? The issue I’m referring to was one of it being just noisy enough to mess with the touchscreen. That’s not a build quality issue, and certainly not one of safety. Those chargers were still built to the highest safety standards (for real, because Apple doesn’t fuck around in that regard).
-
You guys need to learn to stop multi-multi-multi-multi quoting messages in that nested fashion. It’s something that’s part of the arcane nature of ancient forum software, but it it HIDEOUSLY ugly and unreadable. From an aesthetic perspective it should have been ripped out of forum code many years ago.
Who on earth has the time to sit and read a quote inside a quote inside a quote inside a quote inside a quote?!
Pedants quote that way. 🤦♂️
-
Finaly a useful post from user eti.
-
Finaly a useful post from user eti.
;D
I think you'll find there's more than a mere single useful one, but point taken ^-^
-
That this warrants 10 pages of "government intervention is bad" "no it isn't" is amazing.
It's very simple, a lack of standardization causes trouble. Usually, industries settle on a standard themselves pretty quickly, but sometimes they don't, or they settle on an inadequate one. So sometimes this has to be regulated.
There's no point in going on about "uninformed bureaucrats" or whatever. Here in Europe, whenever something is regulated, it's in consultation with the industry experts. That's how healthy governance works.
Regulations aren't set in stone forever either. When the technology they're regulating changes, the regulations get updated to reflect the new situation. Very often regulations are written in terms of minimum standards that have to be met, not maximums. So if the EU mandates USB-C that only means connector type and basic pinout, perhaps the protocol for negotiating power delivery, and leaves the door open for supersets of the basic functionality.
I quite like government regulations. They stop people selling me a car where the kilometers the speedo measures are shorter or longer than anyone else's kilometers. I can buy a bike dynamo with complete confidence that at 15 kmh it's making half an amp at six volts, and equally confident that any lights I buy will match. If I want to go buy a loaf of bread, I'm safe in the knowledge that putting sawdust in the flour is forbidden. Particularly with food, letting the free market self-regulate results in a lot of poisoned people for a very long time before that self-regulation kicks in.
Good governance is excellent.
-
It's very simple, a lack of standardization causes trouble.
Mostly, but you can have too much regulation. This USB-C thing is an example: how can you have something like a magsafe connector if you can only provide USB-C? Perhaps there is an exception in the regulations, but if you follow the 'standardization is good' completely then there wouldn't be.
As with most things, there needs to be moderation.
-
how can you have something like a magsafe connector if you can only provide USB-C?
Simple: You can read the proposal and realise you may have both, but you must have USB-C.
-
Maybe you should read beyond the first line and take in the intent of a post before jerk commenting.
-
Maybe you should read beyond the first line and take in the intent of a post before jerk commenting.
Apologies, I read into that the oft-repeated ignorance seen in this thread. Let it stand as a direction for others, rather than to yourself.
-
Then since the regulation demands USB-C but doesn't prohibit another port alongside, the example is hypothetical.
I notice that a lot of the time when people want to justify their position that they resort to hypothetical scenarios. The problem with that is that hypothetical scenarios are imaginary, they're a daydream. Everyone can imagine themselves a story where all their beliefs are true and all their opponents look dumb. Real world results are the only thing that matters.
-
You guys need to learn to stop multi-multi-multi-multi quoting messages in that nested fashion. It’s something that’s part of the arcane nature of ancient forum software, but it it HIDEOUSLY ugly and unreadable.
Not ugly nor unreadable to someone who is blind. But some visually challenged people wearing glasses might find it unreadable.
From an aesthetic perspective it should have been ripped out of forum code many years ago.
Some people might get their jollies reading quotes. Qualified quacks quickly quietly quit quoting when quotes are quite quarrelsome.
Who on earth has the time to sit and read a quote inside a quote inside a quote inside a quote inside a quote?!
You think those sitting up in the space station have the time?
Pedants quote that way. 🤦♂️
Please provide the statistical data to support your claims. I want a full breakdown of the data, including country, age, gender, profession and IQ.
Joking aside ;), I have never had a problem with it, although I have seen forums with images and videos repeated in quotes which is little over the top. Bytes are cheap these days.
-
If I want to go buy a loaf of bread, I'm safe in the knowledge that putting sawdust in the flour is forbidden.
Not in the US.
https://foodbabe.com/are-you-eating-this-substance-that-lines-food-industry-pockets/
-
America and good governance are two ships that passed in the night.
-
Then since the regulation demands USB-C but doesn't prohibit another port alongside, the example is hypothetical.
I notice that a lot of the time when people want to justify their position that they resort to hypothetical scenarios. The problem with that is that hypothetical scenarios are imaginary, they're a daydream. Everyone can imagine themselves a story where all their beliefs are true and all their opponents look dumb. Real world results are the only thing that matters.
Having an extra port, just to meet a government regulation just causes extra expense. I agree we need good regulation. It's just not needed in this case because the industry has already adopted a standard.
If I want to go buy a loaf of bread, I'm safe in the knowledge that putting sawdust in the flour is forbidden.
Not in the US.
https://foodbabe.com/are-you-eating-this-substance-that-lines-food-industry-pockets/
Where's the evidence cellulose is harmful? If I bake my own bread with wholemeal flour it will contain plenty of cellulose. If I stop eating every food because some website or magazine says it's harmful, I'll die from starvation.
-
If I want to go buy a loaf of bread, I'm safe in the knowledge that putting sawdust in the flour is forbidden.
Not in the US.
https://foodbabe.com/are-you-eating-this-substance-that-lines-food-industry-pockets/
you are seriously using clickbate "article" on a page called "foodbabe.com" as an argument??
-
If I want to go buy a loaf of bread, I'm safe in the knowledge that putting sawdust in the flour is forbidden.
Not in the US.
https://foodbabe.com/are-you-eating-this-substance-that-lines-food-industry-pockets/
1. Food Babe is a widely discredited crackpot (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Food_Babe) best known for her crusade against “yoga mat chemicals” in bread, and for claiming air travel is hazardous because of the “increased” air pressure…
2. Cellulose is not the same as sawdust.
-
I notice that a lot of the time when people want to justify their position that they resort to hypothetical scenarios. The problem with that is that hypothetical scenarios are imaginary, they're a daydream.
Another hypothetical: just imagine if no-one ever thought "what if..."
-
"Humans cannot digest cellulose. It has no caloric value. The food industry tricks consumers who eat foods with a high cellulose content to feel full physically and psychologically without having consumed many calories."
Hmm, doesn't seem such a bad idea!!
-
"Humans cannot digest cellulose. It has no caloric value. The food industry tricks consumers who eat foods with a high cellulose content to feel full physically and psychologically without having consumed many calories."
Hmm, doesn't seem such a bad idea!!
The problem with eating too much of those kinds of foods is, they normally have laxative effects. 💩 💩 💩
-
I have been away from this thread for 5 or 6 pages. You're welcome. Now I'm not surprised that there's still debate over whether or not standardization is good. Would someone please find me a reference to any intelligent person trying to argue that standardization is NOT good. Could be in this thread or any other.
My issue with the law is that it stifles free markets. If given a choice between a little handheld doodad with a micro B charging connector for $5 or one with a USB C connector for $5.25, I'll pick the cheaper one. Likewise, given the choice between something with a superior connector for $10, or one with both that and and a C connector for $11, I might choose either one. The point is, it would be up to me. That's free market. And if the high volume manufacturers need to switch to C connectors just for one large market, then they'll will limit their choices.
As for examples about food that's not good for you, if you're not smart enough to make good dietary choices then you probably should die earlier than people that make good decisions. It's call natural selection. But, I think some people are mistaking laws around safety with laws around convenience. Obviously, I want companies that handle the food I eat to produce food that is safe to eat. And since I can't tell by looking at the cans on the shelf which companies do or don't follow safe practices, I need to rely on governmental regulations. On the other hand, if my government decides that all canned fruit be pears moving forward and no more peaches, then something is wrong. I don't need my government to protect me from bad decisions that I am fully capable of making on my own. If peaches suck so bad, then people will stop buying them and canning companies will stop selling them.
-
Why does it stifle the market, if manufacturers are free to add extra ports in addition to USB-C?
I'm happy for others to buy expensive doodahs to plug into the proprietary ports, just keep my old chargers working and I'll let you be on your way! :D
-
[...] If peaches suck so bad, then people will stop buying them and canning companies will stop selling them.
You are ignoring the shortcomings of our species.
E.g. millions of people fall for phishing scams despite knowing they are bad for you, or vote for bad politicians, or make any number of poor decisions.... You can argue that they have a right to make poor decisions... which I would agree with - but! - not at my expense!
-
Why does it stifle the market, if manufacturers are free to add extra ports in addition to USB-C?
Because manufacturers would not free to make products without USB-C.
This is not a difficult concept, so I'm baffled that you need it explained to you. Is it a language problem? Did I use words that you don't understand? Maybe you just don't understand the term "free market"?
I'm happy for others to buy expensive doodahs to plug into the proprietary ports, just keep my old chargers working and I'll let you be on your way! :D
Again, is it a language problem? Is it a basic problem of reasoning abilities? I won't make personal insults here, but I am thinking them.
EDIT: Maybe I'm not seeing something that others see. It there exists today some rechargeable doodad with a proprietary charging port, please make me aware of it. I'm talking about things you can buy today, not cellphones from the last century. (Nor iPhones. If the proprietary plug on iPhones is what this is all about then bring it up with Apple.)
Or are we concerned with things like electric toothbrushes or electric shavers that charge by sitting in a proprietary stand? If so, then I disagree that it makes sense to force all the devices with micro B connectors to be retooled (and thus become more expensive.) Seriously, tell the toothbrush company you prefer that you would buy a new toothbrush if it has a non-proprietary charging port. If enough people agree, then they will respond. They're in business to make money, and if some specific feature will make more money for them, then they will add it.
Again, this is not an issue of safety, health, or even fair practice.
-
One's freedom ends where another's begins. When the free market starts hurting people shouldn't it be limited or regulated for the greater good?
-
.
-
Polemic remarks aside, the problem is if USB-C is made mandatory, of course manufacturers could add another connector, if a better standard comes along, but they're still stuck with the having to have the old obsolete USB-C connector. Hopefully the law will be reviewed and updated, if necessary, top prevent this.
-
Or are we concerned with things like electric toothbrushes or electric shavers that charge by sitting in a proprietary stand?
Well now, that's a thought. The regs don't cover them so this is, uh, dreamy hypothetical nonsense, of course.
Let's suppose that toothbrushes are covered. On the one hand that would be great - no need to have to base plugged directly into the mains, which must make it a bit safer. And you can have it charging your toothbrush in the car if that's what turns you on. But OTOH you can see people trying plug a common or garden USB charger into a socket in the bathroom, and that's surely going to end in tears.
I think this would be a good case not just for an exemption but for a ban.
-
Or are we concerned with things like electric toothbrushes or electric shavers that charge by sitting in a proprietary stand?
Well now, that's a thought. The regs don't cover them so this is, uh, dreamy hypothetical nonsense, of course.
Let's suppose that toothbrushes are covered. On the one hand that would be great - no need to have to base plugged directly into the mains, which must make it a bit safer. And you can have it charging your toothbrush in the car if that's what turns you on. But OTOH you can see people trying plug a common or garden USB charger into a socket in the bathroom, and that's surely going to end in tears.
I think this would be a good case not just for an exemption but for a ban.
They're generally wireless charging, so it's even more hypothetical.
I already have a USB powered charger for my toothbrush, too..
Polemic remarks aside, the problem is if USB-C is made mandatory, of course manufacturers could add another connector, if a better standard comes along, but they're still stuck with the having to have the old obsolete USB-C connector. Hopefully the law will be reviewed and updated, if necessary, top prevent this.
One imagines if there is significant reason to switch to another connector for charging purposes, there will be loud enough noises made to change the requirements.
-
[...]
Because manufacturers would not free to make products without USB-C.
[...]
Of course not, that's the whole point of the regulation? I.e. just like a lamp has to plug in to your nearest wall outlet, a rechargeable device has to plug in to USB-C. I don't see a problem with that, and many benefits.
The advantage of allowing proprietary-only plugs are really only the ability to fleece the consumer. Are you in favour of fleecing consumers??
-
Polemic remarks aside, the problem is if USB-C is made mandatory, of course manufacturers could add another connector, if a better standard comes along, but they're still stuck with the having to have the old obsolete USB-C connector. Hopefully the law will be reviewed and updated, if necessary, top prevent this.
As I mentioned earlier, that would prevent a wireless-only solution with no connector at all, if USB-C must be there.
I think some replied that I didn't read the proposal if I claimed that. But please show the part that says it would be possible. Otherwise I stand by my claim: that would prevent any solution WITHOUT any connector at all. And this is just an example.
As was hinted here and there, I highly suspect the main driver behind this is NOT to make people's lives easier. It's to pretend doing something to limit e-waste. And the relevance of that, after some analysis, would be relatively easy to debunk IMHO.
The relevance of comparing that to mains plugs is uh, very poor. It's a completely different context and rationale.
-
I already have a USB powered charger for my toothbrush, too..
Oral-B?
<microseconds later>Oh, a tenner from Amazon. Hmmm. Almost as much as the brush but tempting...
Still a captive cable, though. Wonder why that is.
-
My issue with the law is that it stifles free markets.
Free markets don't exist. They're only a thought experiment that relies on a bunch of assumptions that are often not true in real life.
-
When the free market starts hurting people shouldn't it be limited or regulated for the greater good?
Sure, there are cases where it makes sense. Some people might point at monopolies, but I would argue that monopolies are a distinct example of a free market ailing, so regulations might be put into place to restore its health. I understand that I'm expressing something of a ideology here, that a free market is always the best system provided it is allowed to be healthy and flourish. Not everyone agrees with that ideology, but I honestly don't see how this particular situation of multiple charging ports is improved in more than a trivial way at the expense of a free market. I mean, I have thought hard about it, and read the first few pages of this thread to understand the viewpoints of others, but I honesty can't think of a significant real world advantage to the regulation.
In any case, I think it's nearly universally true that all laws are intended for the greater good, possibly at the expense of a few. But it's never black and white. The advantages need to be weighed against the disadvantages. The number of people that benefit and the degree to which they benefit needs to be compared to the cost, whether to a few or to many. If a regulation makes things slightly more convenient for some, but adds real financial cost to almost everyone, then it doesn't seem like a good tradeoff. As I've already explained, the benefit of convenience to me is nearly zero as I will continue to own and use older equipment with micro B connectors. I suspect that the same is true for most people even if they haven't realized it. As for the talk about proprietary connectors, I simply don't see them anywhere on rechargeable products. None. If they exist on new products, someone please make me aware of them.
I relayed the regulation to a friend that hadn't heard about it. Their immediate response was that they think it's a good idea. They then proceeded to list all the reasons they prefer USB C over micro-B. But when asked if they thought a law should be passed requiring it on every product with a charging port, they admitted that a law doesn't make sense. Plenty of the rechargeable devices they already own have micro-B connectors, so they would need to have micro-B cables for some time to come. Everything rechargeable they ever owned with a proprietary connector has been replaced by now. It's simply a question of USB micro-B, USB C, or whatever other standard naturally emerges along with growing technology.
-
... a lamp has to plug in to your nearest wall outlet, a rechargeable device has to plug in to USB-C.
The wall plugs are standardized for safety reasons. And in case you haven't noticed, there's more than one plug, each rated for different current.
I don't see a problem with that, and many benefits.
What are the many benefits? An increase in convenience is one. What are the rest?
The advantage of allowing proprietary-only plugs are really only the ability to fleece the consumer. Are you in favour of fleecing consumers??
What proprietary connectors are you talking about? Please give me an example.
-
... a lamp has to plug in to your nearest wall outlet, a rechargeable device has to plug in to USB-C.
The wall plugs are standardized for safety reasons. And in case you haven't noticed, there's more than one plug, each rated for different current.
I don't see a problem with that, and many benefits.
What are the many benefits? An increase in convenience is one. What are the rest?
The advantage of allowing proprietary-only plugs are really only the ability to fleece the consumer. Are you in favour of fleecing consumers??
What proprietary connectors are you talking about? Please give me an example.
Do we really need to explain to a competent engineer what the benefits of standardisation are?
The benefits are so obvious that the onus is actually on you to explain why we should NOT require a standard charging port (as well as whatever other ports you want) on mobile devices. It is the best of both worlds - we are not impeding innovation, and we are allowing people to (re)use existing chargers and cables in cars, offices, homes, travel bags, and so on.
The idea that if you own 4 portable devices, means that you need 4 chargers in your car, 4 in your office, 4 in your bedroom, 4 in your living room, 4 in your travel bag, 4 in your cottage, and so on, - really, it is just absurd... when one could do the job.
Maybe for your specific use case, of owning one phone that you always snuggle up to, the proprietary port nightmare isn't an issue. But can you at least accept that it is an issue for other people, and allow us a USB-C port to fulfill our basic charging needs unimpeded by "progress"??
-
Polemic remarks aside, the problem is if USB-C is made mandatory, of course manufacturers could add another connector, if a better standard comes along, but they're still stuck with the having to have the old obsolete USB-C connector. Hopefully the law will be reviewed and updated, if necessary, top prevent this.
I don't see the problem. My Laptop can be charged with USB-C, which is also a Thunderbolt or the Lenovo specific charger.
I don't know how they do it, maybe they are using these new so-called dijodes to like switch where the power is coming from.
This is literally a non-issue.
-
The idea that if you own 4 portable devices, means that you need 4 chargers in your car, 4 in your office, 4 in your bedroom, 4 in your living room, 4 in your travel bag, 4 in your cottage, and so on, - really, it is just absurd... when one could do the job.
bet he's going to argue you have one charger, four cables that plug into charger.
-
Do we really need to explain to a competent engineer what the benefits of standardisation are?
No you don't need to explain the benefits of standardization. As I said earlier on this very page, everyone agrees that standardization is good.
Evidently, all attempts to explain to you that charging ports are already standardized has not hit home.
The benefits are so obvious that the onus is actually on you to explain why we should NOT require a standard charging port (as well as whatever other ports you want) on mobile devices. It is the best of both worlds - we are not impeding innovation, and we are allowing people to (re)use existing chargers and cables in cars, offices, homes, travel bags, and so on.
The idea that if you own 4 portable devices, means that you need 4 chargers in your car, 4 in your office, 4 in your bedroom, 4 in your living room, 4 in your travel bag, 4 in your cottage, and so on, - really, it is just absurd... when one could do the job.
Maybe for your specific use case, of owning one phone that you always snuggle up to, the proprietary port nightmare isn't an issue. But can you at least accept that it is an issue for other people, and allow us a USB-C port to fulfill our basic charging needs unimpeded by "progress"??
What 4 devices requiring 4 different connectors? As I have already explained too many times, there are only 2: USB micro-B and USB C. Making a law that all new devices have a C connector will not make micro-B disappear because I will continue to own those devices.
Again, I ask you, for the second time on this page alone, what proprietary connectors are you talking about? Please, tell me so that I can take your argument the slightest bit seriously. Otherwise I will be forced to consider it a so-called strawman argument and disregard any further comments from you as not being important. This round and round is getting nowhere. You need to make me aware of the other 2 out of 4 connectors that you are talking about. I cannot address your comments without that information.
-
Evidently, all attempts to explain to you that charging ports are already standardized has not hit home.
They are not. There are at least three in circulation from major vendors and more legacy types in less reputable products, and absolutely no standardisation of protocol for rapid charging.
Except, well, soon there will be. You're welcome.
-
Dashcams and GPS commonly use mini-B connectors. I think they're still used, over micro-B, because the ID pin can be used to tell them when to power down (or up, as the case may be).
-
Sure, there are cases where it makes sense. Some people might point at monopolies, but I would argue that monopolies are a distinct example of a free market ailing, so regulations might be put into place to restore its health. I understand that I'm expressing something of a ideology here, that a free market is always the best system provided it is allowed to be healthy and flourish.
What is meant by allowing it to "be healthy and flourish"? Who does the allowing?
I relayed the regulation to a friend that hadn't heard about it. Their immediate response was that they think it's a good idea. They then proceeded to list all the reasons they prefer USB C over micro-B. But when asked if they thought a law should be passed requiring it on every product with a charging port, they admitted that a law doesn't make sense.
That doesn't mean anything. You found a person who'd never heard of it and had no opinion, and for the duration of that encounter you were their only source of information. They only heard about it filtered through your views. So obviously they're likely to agree with you, because you have the total monopoly on ideas in that situation. There is no room to do anything else.
You can do that to anyone who's unfamiliar with a given subject.
-
Dashcams and GPS commonly use mini-B connectors. I think they're still used, over micro-B, because the ID pin can be used to tell them when to power down (or up, as the case may be).
Micro-B has the same ID pin.
-
Duh! I'm thinking of the A :palm:
There must be some reason though. Even fairly recent Garmins use the mini over micro.
-
I can think of several possibilities, each more jaded than the last. Perhaps just that mini is harder for users to damage - it falls out easily to begin with..
-
Evidently, all attempts to explain to you that charging ports are already standardized has not hit home.
They are not. There are at least three in circulation from major vendors and more legacy types in less reputable products, and absolutely no standardisation of protocol for rapid charging.
Yet still no actual examples sited. As far as I know (because no help has been offered despite multiple requests) I must conclude that no actual examples exist.
-
Sure, there are cases where it makes sense. Some people might point at monopolies, but I would argue that monopolies are a distinct example of a free market ailing, so regulations might be put into place to restore its health. I understand that I'm expressing something of a ideology here, that a free market is always the best system provided it is allowed to be healthy and flourish.
What is meant by allowing it to "be healthy and flourish"? Who does the allowing?
Sorry, I thought that was obvious. The people that do the allowing are all of the people that do not specifically inhibit it.
It's that simple.
I relayed the regulation to a friend that hadn't heard about it. Their immediate response was that they think it's a good idea. They then proceeded to list all the reasons they prefer USB C over micro-B. But when asked if they thought a law should be passed requiring it on every product with a charging port, they admitted that a law doesn't make sense.
That doesn't mean anything. You found a person who'd never heard of it and had no opinion, and for the duration of that encounter you were their only source of information. They only heard about it filtered through your views. So obviously they're likely to agree with you, because you have the total monopoly on ideas in that situation. There is no room to do anything else.
You can do that to anyone who's unfamiliar with a given subject.
I offered an example of a person who's knee-jerk reaction was was "I like USB C, so it's a good idea" before they actually thought about the consequences. It's just an example. But you are right; it's easy to find examples of many things.
Now how about those examples of battery powered devices with proprietary connectors that you want to charge in your car. I'm still waiting for those.
-
Duh! I'm thinking of the A :palm:
There must be some reason though. Even fairly recent Garmins use the mini over micro.
So vote with your money and buy a TomTom!
-
Evidently, all attempts to explain to you that charging ports are already standardized has not hit home.
They are not. There are at least three in circulation from major vendors and more legacy types in less reputable products, and absolutely no standardisation of protocol for rapid charging.
Yet still no actual examples sited. As far as I know (because no help has been offered despite multiple requests) I must conclude that no actual examples exist.
Amusing. What do you want me to cite (not site) here? The three common types which indicate no single accepted standard? You know what they are. The different charging protocols? Do your own research there.
-
So vote with your money and buy a TomTom!
Never. I'd rather stir boiling fat with my .. appendage.
TomTom are shysters. I've purchased their phone app and not been able to use it - complete waste of money. My partner has a satnav with lifetime updates that is obsolete and not updated.
From a moral viewpoint, they were so bad at abusing GPL'd code that they got sued and had to make a significant (monetary) contribution to the cause. Not many companies have pushed things that far.
-
Amusing. What do you want me to cite (not site) here? The three common types which indicate no single accepted standard? You know what they are. The different charging protocols? Do your own research there.
OK, so it's a puzzle. There are exactly three different connectors. I have listed two of them repeatedly: USB micro-B and USB C. You're saying there's a third and you want me to determine what it is. I can guess either mini-B or that Apple shit. If you mean mini-B, then I will argue that it is an accepted standard that is dying a natural death as it should and as most standards do eventually without governmental intervention. You might say it's not an accepted standard, I say it is. Whatever. There can be more than one standard so long as everyone knows the difference.
If you're talking about the jack on iPhones, then I agree that it's not an accepted standard, at least not accepted by me, but I still say it's between Apple customers and Apple. In fact, if the real problem here is with Apple using a proprietary connector, then I wish everyone that feels that way would just say so. Open the window wide, stick your head out, and shout "I don't want that connector on my Apple phone and I'm not going to take it anymore!" One can say the name out loud in public without fear. Don't complain to your parents or the government in hopes that they'll make things better. Go stand up to the bully and tell them what you want. I don't really think this is all about Apple, but then I don't really know.
In any case, do we agree that the only proprietary connector out there is on Apple phones?
-
Sorry, I thought that was obvious. The people that do the allowing are all of the people that do not specifically inhibit it.
It's that simple.
Then who are the ones who inhibit it and how do they do that? You're speaking in nebulous terms.
I offered an example of a person who's knee-jerk reaction was was "I like USB C, so it's a good idea" before they actually thought about the consequences. It's just an example. But you are right; it's easy to find examples of many things.
You offered the example of someone who's only heard what you think of it and nothing else, who then repeated it back to you.
Now how about those examples of battery powered devices with proprietary connectors that you want to charge in your car. I'm still waiting for those.
I don't own a car. But if I did own one, I'd probably want to charge my iPhone in there, which has a lightning connector. The lightning connector is rubbish and I'd like an iPhone with usb-c, but that mysterious "free market" thing that's unexplained but also apparently meaningful hasn't provided one.
-
In any case, do we agree that the only proprietary connector out there is on Apple phones?
Possibly. However, I never mentioned proprietary connectors to begin with.
-
Folks, I'm sorry that it took me so long to catch on. This is all about iPhones. I didn't see it because, for some reason, nobody has had the balls to to say out loud what the problem is. I apologize for taking up so much of your time.
So please, do whatever it takes to get the fearsome giant to put a fucking USB C connector on your next phone. I don't blame or judge.
-
Folks, I'm sorry that it took me so long to catch on. This is all about iPhones. I didn't see it because, for some reason, nobody has had the balls to to say out loud what the problem is. I apologize for taking up so much of your time.
So please, do whatever it takes to get the fearsome giant to put a fucking USB C connector on your next phone. I don't blame or judge.
It's not. Can't you read? "portable devices"
-
Duh! I'm thinking of the A :palm:
There must be some reason though. Even fairly recent Garmins use the mini over micro.
I just got a brand new Garmin and was surprised to find Mini USB still alive and well....
-
Polemic remarks aside, the problem is if USB-C is made mandatory, of course manufacturers could add another connector, if a better standard comes along, but they're still stuck with the having to have the old obsolete USB-C connector. Hopefully the law will be reviewed and updated, if necessary, top prevent this.
I don't see the problem. My Laptop can be charged with USB-C, which is also a Thunderbolt or the Lenovo specific charger.
I don't know how they do it, maybe they are using these new so-called dijodes to like switch where the power is coming from.
This is literally a non-issue.
At the moment no, but how about in 20 years time when a better standard is around which can charge the battery more quickly? You might not be so happy stuck with USB-C. Imagine if they had standardised on USB-B 10 years ago. You wouldn't be so happy then, having to have an extra useless connector, as well as the USB-C.
I don't own a car. But if I did own one, I'd probably want to charge my iPhone in there, which has a lightning connector. The lightning connector is rubbish and I'd like an iPhone with usb-c, but that mysterious "free market" thing that's unexplained but also apparently meaningful hasn't provided one.
Then you can buy this cheap thing called a USB cable, with a lightning connector on one end. In fact, it will probably come with the phone.
Folks, I'm sorry that it took me so long to catch on. This is all about iPhones. I didn't see it because, for some reason, nobody has had the balls to to say out loud what the problem is. I apologize for taking up so much of your time.
So please, do whatever it takes to get the fearsome giant to put a fucking USB C connector on your next phone. I don't blame or judge.
Of course this is about Apple, even though it's not explicitly stated in the legislation. I doubt the law would exist, if it wasn't for Apple's crappy connector.
-
[...]
for some reason, nobody has had the balls to to say out loud what the problem is [Apple] [...]
There are so many fans of Apple that the discussion often degenerates to slanging matches even for totally reasonable criticism of their practices.
Let's not get started on the subject of planned obsolescence... but Apple isn't the only big tech corporation that has been tempted by the forbidden fruit, one way or the other.
-
And i understand how most users that has a certain flag can not like it, it's just not in their DNA
US: throw a bunch of standards and let the market - or rather the biggest corporation - decide
EU: pick a standard and mandate it - possibly not choosing the best standard
sure it's because i was born and raised in the EU but i prefer how we do things around here
You have to understand that this country was founded by a bunch of people that escaped overbearing oppressive governments specifically to found a new nation based on freedom from this sort of thing, individual choice and minimal regulation. It's far from perfect but it's something a great many of us hold dear and a fundamental component of our culture. I *hate* being told what to do and dealing with regulations and mandates, it feels like being treated like a small child incapable of making my own choices and there are few things that I find more oppressive and frustrating. I guess maybe someone that had always lived under a government that controls so many aspects of their life wouldn't understand, I don't know. Even my own government feels rather oppressive and mired in rules and regulations these days that I almost wish there was somewhere else to go and get away from it. I understand the need for some rules for things like protecting the environment, rules are a necessary evil but they ARE evil and I hate them.
And ended up creating yet another oppressive and over bearing government !!
-
anyway the EU micro C law is welcome if not just to force apple to tow the line
-
Duh! I'm thinking of the A :palm:
There must be some reason though. Even fairly recent Garmins use the mini over micro.
I just got a brand new Garmin and was surprised to find Mini USB still alive and well....
I'm not sure "alive and well" is what it is, it is discouraged but still allowed by USB-IF
I suspect Garmin stick to it because there is a crapton of old holders out there that have a mini-B charging cable
-
Of course this is about Apple, even though it's not explicitly stated in the legislation. I doubt the law would exist, if it wasn't for Apple's crappy connector.
The Lightning connector has proven to be a great connector, and it was introduced years before USB-C to enable capabilities micro-USB couldn’t. If Apple had switched to USB-C right away, people would have lambasted them for abandoning Lightning so quickly. Apple can do no right: no matter what they do, someone attacks them for it, because there’s always been this segment of the population that has an uncontrollable need to hate on them.
Bear in mind also that the other end of a Lightning cable is a standard USB plug. The original EU rule was supposed to reduce excess chargers (which lightning remained compatible with) and cables (which I always thought was a dumb rule, because I’ve always needed more cables than chargers anyway and thus had to buy extras). So switching to Lightning didn’t actually undermine their goals.
With that said, Lightning is now almost a decade old, and I think it’d be ok to move to USB-C.
-
Of course this is about Apple, even though it's not explicitly stated in the legislation. I doubt the law would exist, if it wasn't for Apple's crappy connector.
The Lightning connector has proven to be a great connector, and it was introduced years before USB-C to enable capabilities micro-USB couldn’t. If Apple had switched to USB-C right away, people would have lambasted them for abandoning Lightning so quickly. Apple can do no right: no matter what they do, someone attacks them for it, because there’s always been this segment of the population that has an uncontrollable need to hate on them.
Bear in mind also that the other end of a Lightning cable is a standard USB plug. The original EU rule was supposed to reduce excess chargers (which lightning remained compatible with) and cables (which I always thought was a dumb rule, because I’ve always needed more cables than chargers anyway and thus had to buy extras). So switching to Lightning didn’t actually undermine their goals.
With that said, Lightning is now almost a decade old, and I think it’d be ok to move to USB-C.
Irrespective of its technical merits , my view is lightening was an unreliable connector easily as bad as the Apple junk older connector. My drawer full of apple cables testifies to this and issues with the device socket as well.
-
Apple’s early Lightning cables were awful (like all Apple cables of that era other than AC power cords) because it was during their first forays into PVC-free cables. The newer ones, mercifully, are infinitely better.
As for the sockets, that doesn’t agree with my experience. Far and away the biggest problem with Lightning sockets is how lint gets packed into them. The tolerances are quite small so it doesn’t take much to make the connector unreliable. Pocket lint gets into the socket, and then the next time a plug is inserted, it packs the lint inside. After a year or two, enough can accumulate to prevent reliable mating. Luckily the solution is easy: use a toothpick or paper clip to carefully scrape out the lint.
-
Not everyone agrees with that ideology, but I honestly don't see how this particular situation of multiple charging ports is improved in more than a trivial way at the expense of a free market. I mean, I have thought hard about it, and read the first few pages of this thread to understand the viewpoints of others, but I honesty can't think of a significant real world advantage to the regulation.
Besides the goal to reduce e-junk there is a very practcal aspect for users:
Bob: Oops, I left my charger at home. Can I borrow yours?
Alice: Sure!
This wouldn't work without a standard charging port (unless both have the same device/brand). Or take my father for example. He loves to plug in the next best charger which has a matching plug. Ever tried to charge a three cell Li-Ion battery with 40V? IMHO, it would a good idea to also have a standard charging port with a protocol similar to USB PD for high power battery packs, like for power tools. Two standard chargers (one as spare or for a second battery) instead of 10 different chargers, some with the same connectors, would save money, save real estate on the bench, save ressources (production) and reduce e-junk.
-
Looking forward to:
1. Increasing the BOM cost of my device if I draw more than 15W
2. Having to wait a year for USB-PD parts during this or the next supply shortage
3. Noncompliant USB-PD sinks that sink 5V/3A all the time without negotiation
4. Dealing with blown up ICs because USB-C ports are prone to shorting VBUS to data lines when removing them, and not everyone puts in port protection
5. Being forced to use USB-C ports in a portable rugged device (nb: didn't check if the standard applies to them) and getting dirt/liquid stuck in them
etc, etc.
-
Duh! I'm thinking of the A :palm:
There must be some reason though. Even fairly recent Garmins use the mini over micro.
I just got a brand new Garmin and was surprised to find Mini USB still alive and well....
I'm not sure "alive and well" is what it is, it is discouraged but still allowed by USB-IF
I suspect Garmin stick to it because there is a crapton of old holders out there that have a mini-B charging cable
Maybe, yes. But mini-B is a lot easier to plug in than micro-B. Sometimes I have to invert the micro-B just to show the damn device I'm doing it wrong and then put it back the right way to get it to go in. It's perverse. With mini-B they just slide in first time.
But the whole question of USB as sole power on satnavs and dashcams is a puzzle. Asking for 12V up the jacksie, that one. I don't think it's so they can be plugged into a PC as well because using the same connector for that it has to figure out if there's a PC or car connected. With a 12V input for the car and USB for the PC there's no problem.
-
[...] Sometimes I have to invert the micro-B just to show the damn device I'm doing it wrong and then put it back the right way to get it to go in. It's perverse. [...]
Hahaha yes, I see the same behaviour. It's as if you have to trick it into working. .. pretty remarkable design, really, given its simplicity! :D
-
Maybe, yes. But mini-B is a lot easier to plug in than micro-B. Sometimes I have to invert the micro-B just to show the damn device I'm doing it wrong and then put it back the right way to get it to go in. It's perverse. With mini-B they just slide in first time.
Micro-B and standard A both have that issue. Even Intel, the inventor of USB, has made fun of that: ;D
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/the-eu-is-enforcing-usb-c-on-portable-devices/?action=dlattach;attach=1521862)
P.S. We can thank Apple for USB-C being reversible: they pushed for that feature at the USB-IF.
-
But the whole question of USB as sole power on satnavs and dashcams is a puzzle. Asking for 12V up the jacksie, that one.
Funny you should mention that. My brother in law made that mistake - chopped off the 'accessory' (cigarette lighter..) plug and hard wired his dashcam. It didn't survive the experience. One switching regulator, two LDOs, and a BGA DDR2 IC later (that one was fun), it lived again. Good practice.
-
If there's a desire to have a common power port then a circular barrel jack is far superior to any USB connector. Impossible to put in upside down, rugged, durable, lasts virtually forever. If you want a standard, then just pick one size.
I understand that it wouldn't allow negotiating for different standard voltages, but if a third terminal is available for analog feedback, then the supply could provide any DC voltage over some range.
But all of that is moot because whatever the law says, it's really about getting Apple to replace their proprietary connector with USB C. The goal is to achieve that by any means necessary.
-
How do you put USB-C in upside down?
-
But all of that is moot because whatever the law says, it's really about getting Apple to replace their proprietary connector with USB C. The goal is to achieve that by any means necessary.
That's a silly preconception as the new standard charging port isn't limited to mobile phones.
-
Ok, here is a task for you all.
Look at a few of the larger power supplies you have. Count the number of approvals marks on them. I lost track at 25 on my latest supply. Everyone and their cat has an approvals requirement of some type. The vast majority of these are safety and EMC approvals. There are also environmental requirements for RoHS, etc. However, there are not any applicable approvals when it comes to specific components.
Now consider that the EU is requiring a specific type of connector. This has nothing to do with safety, EMC, RoHS, etc. The claim that it's reducing electronic waste by narrowing down to a single connector is without merit. There are other problems that are much worse.
So if the EU can specify USB-C, what is to prevent China from specifying some other connector? The USA from specifying yet another? For al global product all three would need to be included. All for the same specious claim. This is the key distinction. Safety, EMC, and RoHS leave open any realization within the requirements of the standards. This requirement for USB-C is an entirely new avenue.
-
How do you put USB-C in upside down?
You are not going to believe but this does happen.
-
So if the EU can specify USB-C, what is to prevent China from specifying some other connector? The USA from specifying yet another?
There's nothing to prevent most things. There doesn't need to be, because of newton's first: shit doesn't move until you push it.
This requirement for USB-C is an entirely new avenue.
No it's not. regulations have mandated interoperability standards since forever. I would like to thank the totalitarian dictatorship of 1980s france for mandating that my television has a scart socket - it's a very useful thing to have.
-
But all of that is moot because whatever the law says, it's really about getting Apple to replace their proprietary connector with USB C. The goal is to achieve that by any means necessary.
That's a silly preconception as the new standard charging port isn't limited to mobile phones.
Apparently you missed the part that says "whatever the law says."
Imagine a poll with two multiple choice questions:
1. Do think the law is a good idea?
a. yes
b. no
c. don't care
2. Do you own an iPhone?
a. yes
b. no
c. what's an iPhone
Obviously I can't prove it without actually putting the poll to a large and appropriate sample of people, but my belief is that there would be a very large correlation between the people that answered a to the first question and the people that answered a to the second question.
Whatever may or may not be written into the law today, I believe that the initial motivation for it was entirely, 100% due to the proprietary connector on iPhones. Moreover, the wide support that the law has received from the public comes mostly (but not entirely) from users of iPhones. Put another way, if Apple was already putting USB C connectors on their phones then nobody would have had any interest in proposing the law in the first place. Whatever verbiage it happens to contain today is a poor indicator of the original motivation or the public support for it.
As I said, I can't prove it, but I do believe it.
-
I own an iPhone and whilst I would rather it have a standard USB connector, I don't care about the law. I'm no Apply fanboy. My phone is a hand me down. There's no point in trying to debate anything Apple with an Apple fanboy.
-
If there's a desire to have a common power port then a circular barrel jack is far superior to any USB connector. Impossible to put in upside down, rugged, durable, lasts virtually forever. If you want a standard, then just pick one size.
[I understand that it wouldn't allow negotiating for different standard voltages, but if a third terminal is available for analog feedback, then the supply could provide any DC voltage over some range./b]
That objection doesn’t make any sense. Analog feedback makes no sense at all, and a third wire could easily carry handshaking to negotiate a voltage, just like USB-PD. I think some laptops do that already. (For sure, I know many use a third wire to identify charger types, e.g. genuine or third party, wattage, etc.)
-
Moreover, the wide support that the law has received from the public comes mostly (but not entirely) from users of iPhones.
Why would iPhone users want USB-C support? That kind of implies they think the grass is greener over in USB land but my superficial stereotype of an Apple user is that they think the grass is much better where they are.
-
Moreover, the wide support that the law has received from the public comes mostly (but not entirely) from users of iPhones.
Why would iPhone users want USB-C support? That kind of implies they think the grass is greener over in USB land but my superficial stereotype of an Apple user is that they think the grass is much better where they are.
For me, the advantage would be that everything else is going that way: my iPad Pro is already USB-C, as is my Windows notebook, external SSD, rechargeable mouse, good webcam, power bank, etc.
(With that said, I agree that most iPhone users simply do not care either way.)
-
If there's a desire to have a common power port then a circular barrel jack is far superior to any USB connector. Impossible to put in upside down, rugged, durable, lasts virtually forever. If you want a standard, then just pick one size.
[I understand that it wouldn't allow negotiating for different standard voltages, but if a third terminal is available for analog feedback, then the supply could provide any DC voltage over some range./b]
That objection doesn’t make any sense. Analog feedback makes no sense at all, and a third wire could easily carry handshaking to negotiate a voltage, just like USB-PD. I think some laptops do that already. (For sure, I know many use a third wire to identify charger types, e.g. genuine or third party, wattage, etc.)
Barrel jacks are very rugged, I have a couple of older Dell laptops still going strong after 10 years, lol. I doubt that a USB-C jack would have lasted this long.
-
I think that depends entirely on the mechanical design (e.g. does the housing reinforce the jack, how is it mounted to the PCB, etc). Because many a laptop has died because of a failed barrel jack.
-
Moreover, the wide support that the law has received from the public comes mostly (but not entirely) from users of iPhones.
Why would iPhone users want USB-C support? That kind of implies they think the grass is greener over in USB land but my superficial stereotype of an Apple user is that they think the grass is much better where they are.
USB-C cables are used for everything else and the Apple connector is USB2 which is slow for modern devices with multi-mega-pixel cameras
-
Moreover, the wide support that the law has received from the public comes mostly (but not entirely) from users of iPhones.
Why would iPhone users want USB-C support? That kind of implies they think the grass is greener over in USB land but my superficial stereotype of an Apple user is that they think the grass is much better where they are.
Well if there iPhone had a USB-C port then they could charge it with the same charger cable that they use to change the iPad or MacBook Air (Those are USB-C not Lightning). They could even use the same USB-C to USB-C cable hanging off the charger to charge there iPhone from a MacBook. But that would make way too much sense, just like letting you store files wherever you want in the filesystem.
That objection doesn’t make any sense. Analog feedback makes no sense at all, and a third wire could easily carry handshaking to negotiate a voltage, just like USB-PD. I think some laptops do that already. (For sure, I know many use a third wire to identify charger types, e.g. genuine or third party, wattage, etc.)
Yep you would never want a analog feedback because if anything goes wrong with that feedback line (bad contact, short etc..) the output voltage might just fly off towards the max output voltage and kill the device.
This is easily solved by speaking some digital protocol over the wire, once it becomes a standard the semiconductor manufacturers quickly make cheep tiny single chip solutions to do this negotiation (because they know the market for this is large). So it does not add that much cost to the device and there is no licensing fee to pay for the standard. This also allows to negotiate other things than voltage, like the max current/wattage. It is not practical to make every charger output 5A at all its supported voltages. A tiny compact charger might do 5A at 5V but drop down to 2A at 20V.
I think that depends entirely on the mechanical design (e.g. does the housing reinforce the jack, how is it mounted to the PCB, etc). Because many a laptop has died because of a failed barrel jack.
Indeed i have repaired a fair few broken barrel jacks.
Not that a barrel jack would help with standardizing when every frigin manufacturer uses a different barrel jack from the massive zoo of jacks. I keep a whole bag of barrel jack adapters if all shapes and sizes for when i want to power a barrel jack device from my lab PSU.
But if you break a USB cable you can just take another one from your box of miscalanius cables you collect over the years.
-
Yep you would never want a analog feedback because if anything goes wrong with that feedback line (bad contact, short etc..) the output voltage might just fly off towards the max output voltage and kill the device.
That can be overcome with good design. If the analogue feedback inputs are biased to a slightly higher voltage, with high value resistors, the output voltage will drop to zero, if the feedback is disconnected.
I think that depends entirely on the mechanical design (e.g. does the housing reinforce the jack, how is it mounted to the PCB, etc). Because many a laptop has died because of a failed barrel jack.
Indeed i have repaired a fair few broken barrel jacks.
Not that a barrel jack would help with standardizing when every frigin manufacturer uses a different barrel jack from the massive zoo of jacks. I keep a whole bag of barrel jack adapters if all shapes and sizes for when i want to power a barrel jack device from my lab PSU.
But if you break a USB cable you can just take another one from your box of miscalanius cables you collect over the years.
The main issue I have with barrel connectors is the voltages aren't standardised. It's possible to plug a 12V power supply into a 5V device and fry it.
-
Moreover, the wide support that the law has received from the public comes mostly (but not entirely) from users of iPhones.
Why would iPhone users want USB-C support? That kind of implies they think the grass is greener over in USB land but my superficial stereotype of an Apple user is that they think the grass is much better where they are.
USB-C cables are used for everything else and the Apple connector is USB2 which is slow for modern devices with multi-mega-pixel cameras
That maybe would have mattered in the past, but wired syncing has almost entirely gone the way of the dodo. (In addition to iCloud, which works very well, iPhones have supported local syncing to your computer via Wi-Fi for a long time now.)
-
Well if there iPhone had a USB-C port then they could charge it with the same charger cable that they use to change the iPad or MacBook Air (Those are USB-C not Lightning).
OK! Didn't know it was half and half land :)
-
The main issue I have with barrel connectors is the voltages aren't standardised. It's possible to plug a 12V power supply into a 5V device and fry it.
I thought that was kind of resolved by having 5V jacks with a 2.5mm pin and >5V with 2.1mm pin.
-
This is easily solved by speaking some digital protocol over the wire, once it becomes a standard the semiconductor manufacturers quickly make cheep tiny single chip solutions to do this negotiation (because they know the market for this is large). So it does not add that much cost to the device and there is no licensing fee to pay for the standard. This also allows to negotiate other things than voltage, like the max current/wattage. It is not practical to make every charger output 5A at all its supported voltages. A tiny compact charger might do 5A at 5V but drop down to 2A at 20V.
The 1-Wire protocol has been widely used for this application for ages. I know it’s what Apple used in its MagSafe 1 and 2 chargers and I think (but am not certain) it was used in the earlier ones with the coaxial headphone plug thingies.
-
Yep you would never want a analog feedback because if anything goes wrong with that feedback line (bad contact, short etc..) the output voltage might just fly off towards the max output voltage and kill the device.
That can be overcome with good design. If the analogue feedback inputs are biased to a slightly higher voltage, with high value resistors, the output voltage will drop to zero, if the feedback is disconnected.
But it makes no sense to employ precision analog circuitry when inexpensive digital is both more robust and more capable, e.g. capable of identifying charger model number, serial number, capabilities, etc.
That allows the load to decide what to do if, for example, not enough power is available to charge the battery and run the CPU at maximum speed. It can then decide whether to prioritize charging and throttle the CPU, or drain the battery to maintain maximum performance, as well as dim the screen, etc.
The main issue I have with barrel connectors is the voltages aren't standardised. It's possible to plug a 12V power supply into a 5V device and fry it.
This is what I like about the Japanese EIAJ barrel connector family: it’s sized by voltage family.
-
Yep you would never want a analog feedback because if anything goes wrong with that feedback line (bad contact, short etc..) the output voltage might just fly off towards the max output voltage and kill the device.
That can be overcome with good design. If the analogue feedback inputs are biased to a slightly higher voltage, with high value resistors, the output voltage will drop to zero, if the feedback is disconnected.
But it makes no sense to employ precision analog circuitry when inexpensive digital is both more robust and more capable, e.g. capable of identifying charger model number, serial number, capabilities, etc.
That allows the load to decide what to do if, for example, not enough power is available to charge the battery and run the CPU at maximum speed. It can then decide whether to prioritize charging and throttle the CPU, or drain the battery to maintain maximum performance, as well as dim the screen, etc.
I didn't say that analogue sensing should be done, just that reliability is not a reason for not doing it.
The main issue I have with barrel connectors is the voltages aren't standardised. It's possible to plug a 12V power supply into a 5V device and fry it.
This is what I like about the Japanese EIAJ barrel connector family: it’s sized by voltage family.
That's news to me. I have a box full of power supplies, some with the same barrel connectors and different voltages/polarities.
-
The main issue I have with barrel connectors is the voltages aren't standardised. It's possible to plug a 12V power supply into a 5V device and fry it.
This is what I like about the Japanese EIAJ barrel connector family: it’s sized by voltage family.
That's news to me. I have a box full of power supplies, some with the same barrel connectors and different voltages/polarities.
Yep, take a look: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EIAJ_connector
It’s not perfect, but it’s better than the complete free-for-all that the 5.5mm barrel jacks are.
-
That maybe would have mattered in the past, but wired syncing has almost entirely gone the way of the dodo. (In addition to iCloud, which works very well, iPhones have supported local syncing to your computer via Wi-Fi for a long time now.)
Yep people more rarely transfer large files over USB to a phone these days.
Where it gets useful is for docks that might need to do more than that. We already got to a point where tablets are becoming laptop replacements for some people. So that port then gets a different role. It connects to a docking station that gives you an extra monitor, wired ethernet, extra USB ports etc.. This is a job that USB-C was made for but Lightning just can't do. This is also likely the reason why the latest iPads dropped Lightning.
But it makes no sense to employ precision analog circuitry when inexpensive digital is both more robust and more capable, e.g. capable of identifying charger model number, serial number, capabilities, etc.
That allows the load to decide what to do if, for example, not enough power is available to charge the battery and run the CPU at maximum speed. It can then decide whether to prioritize charging and throttle the CPU, or drain the battery to maintain maximum performance, as well as dim the screen, etc.
Yep these days digital is just easier to do, we can stuff it all into a chip anyway once there is market volume for it.
We do need to also communicate the amperage rating of the charger anyway so might as well pack all that information into a single binary stream over a single wire.
Also analog might be tricked by weird resistances inside a dirty/wet connector. Digital will not, it either identifies correctly or doesn't at all.
EDIT: Oh and if we went to barrel jacks then we would have the problem with "Hey Bob can you lend me that 20V fast charge cable for your laptop, i need to charge my phone."
Bob: "Oh no sorry my laptop uses the smaller 12V connector"
-
I'm for standardization too, but not for politics meddling with much anything other than safety, so I have mixed feelings about this.
My initial reaction was to agree with that sentiment, but I think more often than not manufacturers use profit margins to guide them instead of what is better for society. It's a slippery slope, but I do believe there are times the govt needs to "persuade" change for the better.
-
There's no point in trying to debate anything Apple with an Apple fanboy.
Most likely cognitive dissonance at work. >:D
-
Where it gets useful is for docks that might need to do more than that. We already got to a point where tablets are becoming laptop replacements for some people. So that port then gets a different role. It connects to a docking station that gives you an extra monitor, wired ethernet, extra USB ports etc.. This is a job that USB-C was made for but Lightning just can't do. This is also likely the reason why the latest iPads dropped Lightning.
The first iPad model with USB-C was the 2018 iPad Pro. USB-C was expressly to support faster peripherals, especially storage (but also things like pro audio/video interfaces), as well as allow faster charging, since the iPad Pros could take a while on Lightning.
Since then, most (but not all!) of the iPad product line has been migrated to USB-C.
-
There's no point in trying to debate anything Apple with an Apple fanboy.
Most likely cognitive dissonance at work. >:D
The same is equally true of Apple haters, who cannot look past their prejudices, no matter what the facts of the situation are.
-
My suggestion many posts back about using a barrel jack was somewhat sarcastic, or something, not sure what the right word is. But the basic point is this: If that goal is simply to decide on a common power port to use on all portable devices, then any USB port, in fact, just about any data port, is a poor choice. A common barrel jack is obviously superior from a mechanical and functional standpoint.
Oh wait, the USB C standard allows negotiation for multiple different voltages and max currents. Then I remembered a universal laptop power supply that I once owned. There was a selection of adapter tips that plugged into the end of the cord going to the laptop. Inside each adapter was (I assume) a pair of resistors that returned a reference voltage to the supply. This made it possible for the supply to provide any regulated voltage required in order to serve owners of laptops from different companies. So I tossed that out for everyone to chew on, and some of you did some chewing.
Obviously (I hope it's obvious) an analog feedback signal would not be a good solution moving forward, but it does highlight the fact that something as sophisticated (and fragile, and expensive) as USB C is not required if all you want is a common power port.
But, I also don't believe the goal is simply a common power port, so there you go.
EDIT: I do have serious concerns about the durability and lifetime of a USB C port when plugs are repeatedly inserted and removed, multiple times per day on the same device. The laptop I'm writing this on uses USB C for power, and it has generally been trouble free, but the simple fact is that the jack is a little more loose than it was when I bought the computer a year ago. The USB C power cable can often be seen hanging off the jack a little bit sideways. I push just push it back in. But, the fact is, the laptop has plenty of room for power jack intended just for power that would be far better suited to the job. This has nothing to do with laws. It's just an observation.
-
So likely your cable is failing: part of the design of USB-C (compared to micro-USB or Lightning) was to move the contact and retention springs from the jack to the plug. That way, the cable wears out and not the device. The port has no moving parts at all.
Some reports say that loose USB-C ports can have the same cause as intermittent Lightning ports: dust packed into the bottom.
-
It’s not perfect, but it’s better than the complete free-for-all that the 5.5mm barrel jacks are.
You are correct, barrel jacks are far from standardized. So just as a thought experiment, let's design a new power port that will remain useful for years to come.
To get things going, I propose the following:
It should be circular like barrel jacks and 3.5mm headphone jacks.
It should have a mechanism to keep it from slipping out. 3.5mm phone plugs have simple, functional feature. On the other hand, I'm willing to consider something with a positive locking mechanism that requires one to squeeze the connector in order to remove it. That might not be a good idea, I don't know. I'm willing to listen.
It should have a larger diameter than 3.5mm. Not because I think bigger is better, but because that would make it difficult to accidentally plug it into your headphone jack.
Just tossing it out there as something we can discuss without hostility or any hint of brand loyalty.
-
If that goal is simply to decide on a common power port to use on all portable devices, then any USB port, in fact, just about any data port, is a poor choice.
Not at all. A data and power port means there is only one connector, one cable, needed instead of at least two and probably three on some devices. The downside is that there is only one connector, one cable, so plugging in power from a wallwart and sending data to some device, showing the GUI on a display and talking to the network all at the same time can be tricky. It needs daisy-chaining in the standard, but instead we have additional hubs.
-
I think that depends entirely on the mechanical design (e.g. does the housing reinforce the jack, how is it mounted to the PCB, etc). Because many a laptop has died because of a failed barrel jack.
On this model, the jack is in the (metal) chassis frame, connected to the PCB via wires internally. Obviously this laptop was made to last as well as to be serviceable... clearly no future for the designers involved who were probably all sent to re-education camps! :D
(Not to mention that Dell used the same barrel connectors on several generations of laptops, and the chargers all work across all of them!)
-
[...]
It should have a mechanism to keep it from slipping out. 3.5mm phone plugs have simple, functional feature. On the other hand, I'm willing to consider something with a positive locking mechanism that requires one to squeeze the connector in order to remove it. That might not be a good idea, I don't know. I'm willing to listen.
[...]
I don't think positive locking mechanisms are a good idea. My laptop barrel jack has saved me from disaster numerous times when stumbling over the power cable (by simply getting ripped out of the socket, rather than breaking anything).... a positive locking cable would have broken something on those occasions.
-
If that goal is simply to decide on a common power port to use on all portable devices, then any USB port, in fact, just about any data port, is a poor choice.
Not at all. A data and power port means there is only one connector, one cable, needed instead of at least two and probably three on some devices. The downside is that there is only one connector, one cable, so plugging in power from a wallwart and sending data to some device, showing the GUI on a display and talking to the network all at the same time can be tricky. It needs daisy-chaining in the standard, but instead we have additional hubs.
There could be more than one USB-C port on a device... But they should all support the same features!!!
-
If that goal is simply to decide on a common power port to use on all portable devices, then any USB port, in fact, just about any data port, is a poor choice.
Not at all. A data and power port means there is only one connector, one cable, needed instead of at least two and probably three on some devices. The downside is that there is only one connector, one cable, so plugging in power from a wallwart and sending data to some device, showing the GUI on a display and talking to the network all at the same time can be tricky. It needs daisy-chaining in the standard, but instead we have additional hubs.
Usually the use case for this is again docking stations.
You get to your desk, set your laptop down and plug a single USB-C cable into it. This makes the dock provide the laptop with power to change it and the dock splits out all the functionality you need like display, ethernet, peripherals, storage etc.. This way you don't need to plug in 2 to 5 cables each time you want to work at your desk.
I do hate the trend of dropping USB-A ports in favor of USB-C on some modern laptops. There are still plenty of peripherals with USB-A that now need a dongle. They also tend to skimp on the number of USB-C ports. You still usually get only 2 to 4 USB ports per laptop, yet other things that used to be dedicated ports eat them up. Charging is now USB-C, HDMI is now over USB-C, Ethernet is now over USB-C. So if it is becoming this one connector to rule them all, do put more of them on to replace the ports that disappeared.
-
There's no point in trying to debate anything Apple with an Apple fanboy.
Most likely cognitive dissonance at work. >:D
The same is equally true of Apple haters, who cannot look past their prejudices, no matter what the facts of the situation are.
Good to know I'm in the Apple ambivalent category. There are things I dislike, such as the crappy connector and lack of a headphone jack, whilst I like the user interface and its much less buggy that other products.
-
Usually the use case for this is again docking stations.
That's surely just a glorified hub >:D
-
I just wonder how many cables and connectors it will burn in high power work/gaming laptops
It will be a nice heap of waste >:D
I'm talking about those 100-200W devices that look to also will have to have USB-C just a little later
Transfering say average 100W for 8 hours a day
Every little disturbance of that connector will just end up catastrophically
-
Usually the use case for this is again docking stations.
That's surely just a glorified hub >:D
Pretty much yeah.
Tho most of the docks use the extra high speed pairs in USB-C to get DisplayPort or Thunderbolt across to it. This gives it more performance as not everything has to be stuffed down the USB lines.
This is also the reason why USB-C dock compatibility is a shitshow despite all of them using the same connector. If you plug a dock that wants to use Thunderbolt into a laptop that only supports USB 3.0 or DisplayPort on its USB-C port it simply will not work for seemingly no reason. The only way to know is doing research online or just trying to plug it in. There is no standard way to mark USB ports by capability, they all just get marked with the genetic USB logo. Here is where USB-C shoot itself in the foot.
-
Thunderbolt/USB4 are also a *very* restricted ecosystem. I have an application that's perfect for Thunderbolt and even just the pre-certification process is like pulling teeth.
-
This is also the reason why USB-C dock compatibility is a shitshow despite all of them using the same connector. If you plug a dock that wants to use Thunderbolt into a laptop that only supports USB 3.0 or DisplayPort on its USB-C port it simply will not work for seemingly no reason. The only way to know is doing research online or just trying to plug it in. There is no standard way to mark USB ports by capability, they all just get marked with the genetic USB logo. Here is where USB-C shoot itself in the foot.
No, there are standards for it, it’s just that people ignore them when designing gadgets.
-
Ah indeed there is an convention for making ports:
https://www.kensington.com/news/docking-connectivity-blog/usb-c-demystified/ (https://www.kensington.com/news/docking-connectivity-blog/usb-c-demystified/)
But i am guessing it is on the device manufacturers to be aware of it and mark things accordingly. We already had manufacturers changing the color of the USB-A connectors inner plastic to whatever suits the visual look of there device rather than following the colors by the spec that tell you what type of USB port it is.
-
Ah indeed there is an convention for making ports:
https://www.kensington.com/news/docking-connectivity-blog/usb-c-demystified/ (https://www.kensington.com/news/docking-connectivity-blog/usb-c-demystified/)
But i am guessing it is on the device manufacturers to be aware of it and mark things accordingly. We already had manufacturers changing the color of the USB-A connectors inner plastic to whatever suits the visual look of there device rather than following the colors by the spec that tell you what type of USB port it is.
As far as I've seen, none of the "conventional" markings can indicate whether a given USB-C port supports *charging the device* through it. Please tell me that I missed it, though.
-
None of the USB-C devices near me here (laptop, phone) show any symbols at all next to their ports... so, it is a mystery what they actually support.
The USB-C standards committee has dropped a clanger here, for sure - ruining the simple elegance of USB.
-
Yep. While a single USB-C connector on a mobile phone, and even on a tablet, has about 100% probability of serving as a charging port (especially if there's no other charging port available), the situation becomes blurry on laptops, or mobile devices that would have several USB-C ports.
I recently had a colleague wonder whether they could charge their laptop through one of the USB-C ports (the laptop has otherwise a dedicated barrel jack charging port.) Turns out it was undocumented for this particular model, while other models of the same brand either officially supported it or officially did not. He bluntly tried on one of the USB-C ports, and it... worked. Who knows why it was not documented but still implemented. Maybe tests had just shown issues, or maybe it didn't pass EMC, or maybe just for marketing reasons... Either way, there is no indication on the port itself whatsoever whether it will support charging or not.
-
As far as I've seen, none of the "conventional" markings can indicate whether a given USB-C port supports *charging the device* through it. Please tell me that I missed it, though.
Yep i could also not figure out what port is for charging. Or can that be done by any of the ports? Or is the battery symbol actually bidirectional. So fast charging output but also fast charging input.
Another thing that i found a bit confusing by the standard is how Thunderbolt support is marked. This shows the Thunderbolt capable port having a lightning bolt drawn next to it and no USB symbol at all, even tho it actually includes USB 2.0 capability (and all other examples have the USB logo in it somewhere). Then in a confusing way a fast charging USB port is shown to have a USB logo and a different lightning bolt icon on it. To make things even more confusing Thunderbolt capable ports also include DisplayPort capability, yet that table does not show a DP logo next to it.
Then making things worse there is no mention of the HDMI alternate mode (that USB-C can support by the spec). Given that the new DisplayPort specs do include a special mode that allows HDMI emulation on passive adapter cables, so one would expect the DP symbol means USB-C to HDMI cables will work. Yet this does not seam to be the case. Acording to wikipedia active adapters are required for this. Instead to get a passive HDMI cable your device needs to actually support the HDMI mode specificaly.
This thing is a mess :scared:
-
As far as I've seen, none of the "conventional" markings can indicate whether a given USB-C port supports *charging the device* through it. Please tell me that I missed it, though.
Yep i could also not figure out what port is for charging. Or can that be done by any of the ports?
Yes, this is a mystery. Quite a pickle.
(https://www.reviewgeek.com/p/uploads/2022/02/ac4f08b9.jpg)
Maybe vote with your wallet, and only buy devices that mark the port? Or maybe the politicians can mandate the markings, but that would limit innovation. What if a better symbol is invented?
-
It wouldn't bother me if the politicians mandated decent documentation.
-
Video: I made a USB-C iPhone 13
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yudWXta6dM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yudWXta6dM)
-
Nice work on it!
-
Nice work on it!
I clicked on the vid, just on a whim but he sure pulled out all the stops.
:)
-
It wouldn't bother me if the politicians mandated decent documentation.
I wouldn't mind if the politicians mandated their own demise. ::)
-
What I would like to see, not sure if covered here already or already available on the market, is electric power tools from various manufacturers (AEG, Bosch, Makita, Ryobi, DeWalt ...) to work with same batteries.
-
What I would like to see, not sure if covered here already or already available on the market, is electric power tools from various manufacturers (AEG, Bosch, Makita, Ryobi, DeWalt ...) to work with same batteries.
(I have no idea if such a standard exists.)
The only potential downside I see is perhaps an increase in unsafe counterfeit batteries. Annoying as it is, I do understand why so many device manufacturers use authentication chips to prevent third party batteries, given that (Samsung’s Note 7 fiasco aside), most cellphone and digital camera battery fires are apparently due to third party batteries, if I remember correctly.
So strictly from a product liability perspective, there is logic in attempting to keep out batteries you didn’t make yourself.
The only products I’m aware of where standardized third-party batteries are the norm is broadcast video equipment, where the industry-standard “V mount” is used for tons of cameras, etc. (In the past, it was common for the camera to have one, the video tape recorder another, maybe another for the audio recorder… All interchangeable.) A company called Anton Bauer is dominant, but many, many competitors exist.
-
What I would like to see, not sure if covered here already or already available on the market, is electric power tools from various manufacturers (AEG, Bosch, Makita, Ryobi, DeWalt ...) to work with same batteries.
(I have no idea if such a standard exists.)
The only potential downside I see is perhaps an increase in unsafe counterfeit batteries. Annoying as it is, I do understand why so many device manufacturers use authentication chips to prevent third party batteries, given that (Samsung’s Note 7 fiasco aside), most cellphone and digital camera battery fires are apparently due to third party batteries, if I remember correctly.
Not really. There are standard form factor batteries which are interchangeable. It is up to the user to buy good quality or crappy batteries.
-
Mandated standard : Great. no more endless mishmash of wires, adapters and whatnot.
Paying standard : total failure. Such a standard needs to be open and accessible. now it is locked behind a paywall. you cannot make a device without signing nda , paying dues and whatnot.
having to pay for compliance testing is ok if you want to put a product in the market, but you should be able to do the design without cost and hoop jumping.
if you design an electrical plug you don't need to pay for the standard, just for compliance testing
-
What I would like to see, not sure if covered here already or already available on the market, is electric power tools from various manufacturers (AEG, Bosch, Makita, Ryobi, DeWalt ...) to work with same batteries.
(I have no idea if such a standard exists.)
The only potential downside I see is perhaps an increase in unsafe counterfeit batteries. Annoying as it is, I do understand why so many device manufacturers use authentication chips to prevent third party batteries, given that (Samsung’s Note 7 fiasco aside), most cellphone and digital camera battery fires are apparently due to third party batteries, if I remember correctly.
Not really. There are standard form factor batteries which are interchangeable. It is up to the user to buy good quality or crappy batteries.
Unfortunately, a large percentage of the third-party cellphone batteries were sold to people who thought they were buying original ones: counterfeits. We cannot expect every consumer to be an expert in identifying genuine or high-quality aftermarket batteries. I categorically reject the argument of “caveat emptor” as the mechanism for preventing unsafe products from entering the market.
Regardless, you entirely missed the key point of my statement: product liability. From a phone or camera manufacturer’s perspective — where THEY will be the first entity sued when something goes wrong — I think it’s entirely logical to block third party batteries.
-
Mandated standard : Great. no more endless mishmash of wires, adapters and whatnot.
Paying standard : total failure. Such a standard needs to be open and accessible. now it is locked behind a paywall. you cannot make a device without signing nda , paying dues and whatnot.
having to pay for compliance testing is ok if you want to put a product in the market, but you should be able to do the design without cost and hoop jumping.
if you design an electrical plug you don't need to pay for the standard, just for compliance testing
LOL what? You can go on the USB-IF website right now and download the standards. They’re not paywalled. You can make a USB compliant gadget without licensing USB, you just can’t put a USB logo on it. For that, you need to pay for… wait for it… compliance testing.
The $5k/yr for USB-IF membership is peanuts to the companies making these products. Compliance testing is surely far more expensive.
-
What I would like to see, not sure if covered here already or already available on the market, is electric power tools from various manufacturers (AEG, Bosch, Makita, Ryobi, DeWalt ...) to work with same batteries.
(I have no idea if such a standard exists.)
The only potential downside I see is perhaps an increase in unsafe counterfeit batteries. Annoying as it is, I do understand why so many device manufacturers use authentication chips to prevent third party batteries, given that (Samsung’s Note 7 fiasco aside), most cellphone and digital camera battery fires are apparently due to third party batteries, if I remember correctly.
Not really. There are standard form factor batteries which are interchangeable. It is up to the user to buy good quality or crappy batteries.
Unfortunately, a large percentage of the third-party cellphone batteries were sold to people who thought they were buying original ones: counterfeits. We cannot expect every consumer to be an expert in identifying genuine or high-quality aftermarket batteries. I categorically reject the argument of “caveat emptor” as the mechanism for preventing unsafe products from entering the market.
Regardless, you entirely missed the key point of my statement: product liability. From a phone or camera manufacturer’s perspective — where THEY will be the first entity sued when something goes wrong — I think it’s entirely logical to block third party batteries.
Counterfeit batteries is a straw man. If manufacturers were genuinely worried about being sued because the customer fitted fake batteries, then why are there still so many devices which run on alkaline cells? It's easy to prove the customer fitted third party batteries. A simple code printed on the OEM battery (this can be in a discrete place, in invisible ink) would prove that.
-
A simple code printed on the OEM battery
...would be faked too, if the user needed to check it. If not, once the user has bought the battery (that he may think is OEM) no-one cares except the manufacturer, and by then it's too late.
Also, simple codes tend not to survive a conflagration event ;)
Perhaps a better solution would be the provide replacements are a good price. Sure, they won't price out the fakers but if it's close enough most punters would opt for genuine rather than after-market. The ones that really must save the last penny... well, nothing's going to persuade them anyway.
-
if you design an electrical plug you don't need to pay for the standard, just for compliance testing
Errr.
Please go find a legal, free copy of BS 1363, IEC 60320, IEC 60309, AS/NZS 3112, CEE 7 and IEC 60884-1, ....
And before you go "But I can get my shitty flimsy NEMA 5 dimensions for free" - The US is irrelevant in this context anyway, because we are discussing the EU.
-
What I would like to see, not sure if covered here already or already available on the market, is electric power tools from various manufacturers (AEG, Bosch, Makita, Ryobi, DeWalt ...) to work with same batteries.
https://www.powerforall-alliance.com/en/partners/ (https://www.powerforall-alliance.com/en/partners/)
-
https://www.powerforall-alliance.com/en/partners/ (https://www.powerforall-alliance.com/en/partners/)
This looks more like Bosch and a bunch of small companies that could not be bothered or don't have enough scale to make their own batteries.
At the same time, there are adapters for most brands of batteries to most brands of tools. All the popular combinations are covered.
-
[....] I think it’s entirely logical to block third party batteries.
Noooooo, @Tooki! :D
That is just creating a monopoly situation that guarantees high prices. Imagine if you couldn't choose the tyres for your car, and you had to buy ones sold by the car manufacturer...
-
and a bunch of small companies
maybe to you,but flymo is a well known brands of lawn mower here ,ask us what a cub cadet is and i'd bet more replies would say a young boy in a green uniform rather than one of americas popular lawn mowers and husqvarna has been going nearly as long as the white man has been of stealing land off indians
that could not be bothered or don't have enough scale to make their own
so how many companys build there products from the raw materials,instead of buying components from a company that specialises in that part? do ford make the chips in there ecu's
-
so how many companys build there products from the raw materials,instead of buying components
It is not about building from scratch, it is about business model. Large tool vendors make their money on batteries. Mandating some standard type of battery will force them to reconsider their business model. This may be for the best, hard to tell.
For me personally, I like the cheaper tools because I don't use them enough to kill the batteries. I have Ryobi drill that I bought 10 years ago and it is still on the original battery. Same situation with printers. My $50 printer is still on the original cartridge. This one actually developed some minor vertical lines. But it lasted long enough that I'm sure Samsung lost money on me.
And from what I see the companies on the list are not professional tool makers. The market there may be different.
-
And from what I see the companies on the list are not professional tool makers. The market there may be different.
Well it's a start but still not enough. Wake me up when Makita, DeWalt, Hitachi, Hilti and Milwaukee are members.
Those are the ones who lock you in their ecosystem with their battery systems. Hilti now even have a new system of batteries - https://www.hilti.com/content/hilti/W1/US/en/company/news/press-releases/2022-nuron.html (https://www.hilti.com/content/hilti/W1/US/en/company/news/press-releases/2022-nuron.html)
TLDR - one type of battery for all their products and the batteries have telemetry integrated who tracks, and citing their website:
Connected to the cloud for increased productivity
Nuron brings intelligence to the core of the platform – all tools generate data which is then stored on the Nuron batteries and sent securely to the cloud during every charge without any operator interaction. The data collected includes information such as tool usage, tool utilization, charging location and battery state-of-health. This information can then be used to alert individuals if action is needed immediately or can be accessed on-demand as required and is available on mobile and desktop via Hilti’s ON!Track software platform. Together with services like Hilti Fleet Management tool data can be used to reduce downtime and optimize tool cribs to boost customer productivity.
They also said in a interview I saw that it helps regarding tools that are stolen from work sites, companies and vehicles. So let's give them even more control to decide when a battery is in need to be replaced because (said no one) the manufacturer knows the best for the customer...
Although as you said and correctly there are adapters available for most type of combinations.
-
Counterfeit batteries is a straw man. If manufacturers were genuinely worried about being sued because the customer fitted fake batteries, then why are there still so many devices which run on alkaline cells? It's easy to prove the customer fitted third party batteries. A simple code printed on the OEM battery (this can be in a discrete place, in invisible ink) would prove that.
When is the last time you heard about an alkaline battery turning into a flamethrower in someone’s pocket? The safety issue is specific to lithium ion batteries.
And yyyyeah, counterfeiters have been cloning batteries, including the authenticity holograms, for years. A simple printed code won’t do. Hence using authentication ICs.
-
Perhaps a better solution would be the provide replacements are a good price. Sure, they won't price out the fakers but if it's close enough most punters would opt for genuine rather than after-market. The ones that really must save the last penny... well, nothing's going to persuade them anyway.
This!! I really don’t think companies should consider safety-relevant spare parts as profit centers.
I liked how some years ago, after a girl got electrocuted while using a faulty third-party USB charger on her iPhone (and a few other incidents with third party chargers), Apple ran a campaign where you could trade in a third party charger and get a genuine Apple one for $10. Of course, I wish they just sold them for $10 to begin with, precisely to disincentivize people from buying junk.
-
Counterfeit batteries is a straw man. If manufacturers were genuinely worried about being sued because the customer fitted fake batteries, then why are there still so many devices which run on alkaline cells? It's easy to prove the customer fitted third party batteries. A simple code printed on the OEM battery (this can be in a discrete place, in invisible ink) would prove that.
When is the last time you heard about an alkaline battery turning into a flamethrower in someone’s pocket? The safety issue is specific to lithium ion batteries.
All the horror stories I've heard were from unprotected batteries.
There is the middle ground of standard shaped/sized protected lithium batteries like is done with cameras, they dont need vendor lock in or authentication.
-
All the horror stories I've heard were from unprotected batteries.
There is the middle ground of standard shaped/sized protected lithium batteries like is done with cameras, they dont need vendor lock in or authentication.
Yes, they do, because they’re exactly the batteries I’m talking about. Phones and cameras don’t use unprotected 18650 cells. They use protected rectangular battery packs. And there have been many cases of those things catching on fire. Mostly counterfeits.
-
TLDR - one type of battery for all their products and the batteries have telemetry integrated who tracks
That is atrocious. No doubt they can get away with it because they are high-end tools and 'people' tend not to buy them - their companies do, and companies don't care about the privacy implications (in fact, they would love the anti-theft element). But the problem is that high-end stuff trickles down and pretty soon it will be the norm for stuff you'll buy from Aldi and Lidl, and by then it's too late to be able to take a stance against it.
-
TLDR - one type of battery for all their products and the batteries have telemetry integrated who tracks
That is atrocious. No doubt they can get away with it because they are high-end tools and 'people' tend not to buy them - their companies do, and companies don't care about the privacy implications (in fact, they would love the anti-theft element). But the problem is that high-end stuff trickles down and pretty soon it will be the norm for stuff you'll buy from Aldi and Lidl, and by then it's too late to be able to take a stance against it.
Not even that for me the biggest gripe is they can impose limits in the battery a là IOS Battery Gate - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batterygate
So basically reduce the battery usage time before shutdown because the battery been already 5 years in use and should be replaced (for example). And then you have cases of people who own tools with battery and rarely use them enough for the battery to even get more than 200 cycles in those 5 years, like most hobby household man.
200 cycles in a lithium battery is absolutely nothing.
-
That too.
-
It's true that brands need to fight dangerous counterfeits coming from whatever country build them.
It's also true that counterfeits are getting better and better, fooling even the most informed person (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/mechanical-engineering/how-to-spot-fake-mitutoyo-calipers/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/mechanical-engineering/how-to-spot-fake-mitutoyo-calipers/) as an example of many others).
One of the ways companies have is lower prices to make the OEM and counterfeit market less appealing, although it's a hard battle to fight in some regions of the world where the monthly income is way lower than the standard developed world.
Even in the developed world is hard with the inflation and non increase of salaries compared with the cost of life.
What can it be done? All measures can be counter with reasons and justifications in the economic or political scope (as import restrictions as example).
A program of exchange of older equipment for new one at a lower cost? That could work but not only would need companies to allocate resources to such program as it could be abused - Snap On exchange program is one it comes to my mind and have first hand experience where people buy damaged tools on eBay to then go the Snap On van to exchange for a new one.
-
Snap On exchange program is one it comes to my mind and have first hand experience where people buy damaged tools on eBay to then go the Snap On van to exchange for a new one.
Don't see the problem. If they warranty the tool for life then it should be exchangeable by anyone. AFAIK they don't warrant that a tool will become trash merely because a different pair of hands touched it.
-
Counterfeit batteries is a straw man. If manufacturers were genuinely worried about being sued because the customer fitted fake batteries, then why are there still so many devices which run on alkaline cells? It's easy to prove the customer fitted third party batteries. A simple code printed on the OEM battery (this can be in a discrete place, in invisible ink) would prove that.
When is the last time you heard about an alkaline battery turning into a flamethrower in someone’s pocket? The safety issue is specific to lithium ion batteries.
And yyyyeah, counterfeiters have been cloning batteries, including the authenticity holograms, for years. A simple printed code won’t do. Hence using authentication ICs.
Just put serial numbers on the batteries which match the product.
Battery protection can be integrated into the device, so even if the battery isn't protected, it's no big deal.
It's all an excuse to rip people off. I'd rather be able to replace the batteries, with decent third party ones, rather than having to dump the device or pay an absorbent price to the manufacturer.
-
Battery protection can be integrated into the device, so even if the battery isn't protected, it's no big deal.
You can do that, but it can’t protect against everything. Battery protection requires knowing certain battery parameters, and those may not reliable in a counterfeit battery.
And some of the… unplanned energetic flame releases happened in situations where a protection circuit can’t do anything: with the device in someone’s pocket, idle. Not in use, not being charged. (Again, talking about phones and cameras, not vape pens and other lithium ion horrors.)
-
All the horror stories I've heard were from unprotected batteries.
There is the middle ground of standard shaped/sized protected lithium batteries like is done with cameras, they dont need vendor lock in or authentication.
Yes, they do, because they’re exactly the batteries I’m talking about. Phones and cameras don’t use unprotected 18650 cells. They use protected rectangular battery packs. And there have been many cases of those things catching on fire. Mostly counterfeits.
Phones? they pretty much all moved to internally captive (non user serviceable) unprotected prismatic/pouch cells.
-
It's all an excuse to rip people off. I'd rather be able to replace the batteries, with decent third party ones, rather than having to dump the device or pay an absorbent price to the manufacturer.
I have an issue with availability as well. I own devices I can no longer get replacement batteries for except from the aftermarket.
-
All the horror stories I've heard were from unprotected batteries.
There is the middle ground of standard shaped/sized protected lithium batteries like is done with cameras, they dont need vendor lock in or authentication.
Yes, they do, because they’re exactly the batteries I’m talking about. Phones and cameras don’t use unprotected 18650 cells. They use protected rectangular battery packs. And there have been many cases of those things catching on fire. Mostly counterfeits.
Phones? they pretty much all moved to internally captive (non user serviceable) unprotected prismatic/pouch cells.
Yep, and counterfeit batteries is one (not the only) reason why.
-
Yep, and counterfeit batteries is one (not the only) reason why.
I'd say it's one excuse why.
-
Yep, and counterfeit batteries is one (not the only) reason why.
I'd say it's one excuse why.
Of course you would, since you'd already dismissed the explanation. [Edit: my bad, that wasn't you.] Of course, in reality there's a difference between an excuse and an explanation, though many people cry "excuse!" just because they don't like or understand the explanations.
The fact is, companies weigh decisions based on complex factors, while people choose to actively ignore the factors they don't care about, deriding them as BS or whatever, even if they were significant or even deciding factors to the decision maker.
But if you were a multinational company with legal exposure worldwide, would you take the risk of getting sued when some family dies in a house fire caused by a crappy third party battery? Or will your lawyers say "lock that shit down"? Liability is a huge, huge issue, and companies have to make sure they avoid anything that could be considered negligence, as well as things that ambulance chasers and the media will twist into the appearance of negligence in the eyes of the public -- or a jury.
Just because you personally are willing to take a calculated risk with a third-party battery or charger doesn't mean most people should. And just because you're willing to take that risk doesn't mean the manufacturer should be obligated to make it easy for you.
I'm not saying that locking it down is always the right answer. But I can absolutely understand why companies do it.
-
Yep, and counterfeit batteries is one (not the only) reason why.
I'd say it's one excuse why.
Of course you would, since you'd already dismissed the explanation.
Making up stuff again, Tooki? I have not 'already dismissed the explanation' and that was my first comment on the subject.
'Sok, much as it would be the right thing to do, I know you won't apologise.
-
I'm not saying that locking it down is always the right answer. But I can absolutely understand why companies do it.
Same opinion here, which is why, as a customer, I do want to be able to repair/change batteries/whatever at will, but I also fully understand what kind of rabbit hole it can be for a company.
And particularly for Li-ion batteries. Those infamous batteries are a total plague (yes I'm just barely exaggerating). They are inherently unsafe and push manufacturers to take a lot of precautions. It's just that we haven't found anything safer, as low-cost and with as much energy density than those yet. And they are OK(ish) if you handle them right.
-
Yep, and counterfeit batteries is one (not the only) reason why.
I'd say it's one excuse why.
Of course you would, since you'd already dismissed the explanation.
Making up stuff again, Tooki? I have not 'already dismissed the explanation' and that was my first comment on the subject.
'Sok, much as it would be the right thing to do, I know you won't apologise.
On the contrary. My mistake, I did confuse your reply and an earlier one when scrolling. I apologize, despite your certainty that I wouldn't. (I actually make a point of owning up to my errors when made aware of them, and have apologized on these forums on numerous occasions. I also usually go back and mark -- but don't delete -- the incorrect statement in my post, as I've done above.)
Of course, you could have just said "This is my first comment on the subject, are you sure you weren't thinking of someone else?" instead of the response you chose. I am opinionated, but I am not the asshole you clearly think I am.
-
Thank you.
-
[...]
I'm not saying that locking it down is always the right answer. But I can absolutely understand why companies do it.
Why doesn't the same thinking apply to laptops, or car batteries, or lantern/torch batteries, etc. etc. etc.? Historically, we are used to be able to replace batteries with any brand we like, in most products. It seems a stretch to argue that there is any benefit to the consumer for overpaying for wear parts such as batteries, ports, etc.
-
But if you were a multinational company with legal exposure worldwide, would you take the risk of getting sued when some family dies in a house fire caused by a crappy third party battery? Or will your lawyers say "lock that shit down"? Liability is a huge, huge issue, and companies have to make sure they avoid anything that could be considered negligence, as well as things that ambulance chasers and the media will twist into the appearance of negligence in the eyes of the public -- or a jury.
In this case I wonder why consumers are still allowed to use any charger they like. There have been multiple incidents with cheap and dangerous chargers. Sorry, it's only about profit maximization and design. The liability argument is a red herring. Another example: brake pads for your car. Do you have to get them replaced with new ones from the car manufacturer at a licenced dealership/garage? Or can you go to any garage you like and get brake pads from whatever brand available? Or even swap them yourself?
-
[...]
I'm not saying that locking it down is always the right answer. But I can absolutely understand why companies do it.
Why doesn't the same thinking apply to laptops, or car batteries, or lantern/torch batteries, etc. etc. etc.? Historically, we are used to be able to replace batteries with any brand we like, in most products. It seems a stretch to argue that there is any benefit to the consumer for overpaying for wear parts such as batteries, ports, etc.
I’d say ubiquity of phones, and risk: we use the highest-density, most unstable lithium batteries in phones due to size and weight. It’s easy to make a lithium cell that’s more robust and can tolerate more abuse, but that makes them hold less energy and makes them physically larger due to armoring. (Like in cylindrical cells or battery packs with hard shells.)
The original manufacturer can carefully design a product around a temperamental lipo battery. Third parties may get it right, but many won’t.
With that said, I don’t think the other products you mention are actually good counterexamples.
Until modern purely-electric cars, car batteries have been simple lead acid affairs, where nothing bad is likely to happen if the battery goes bad. (And in modern all-electric cars, the lithium battery packs are locked down.)
Lantern batteries are historically, again, not lithium rechargeables, but alkaline or carbon zinc cells, again not hazardous. Rechargeable flashlights often don’t have removable batteries.
Laptop batteries generally have been locked down. Third parties either carefully rebuilt original ones, or reverse-engineered the authentication.
-
In this case I wonder why consumers are still allowed to use any charger they like. There have been multiple incidents with cheap and dangerous chargers.
Probably because there’s still a layer of protection (in the charger and power management ICs inside the phone) that will prevent certain charger failures (like overvoltage) from actually reaching the battery.
But yeah, some charger failures (like isolation failure between primary and secondary) have been deadly, and one could argue that it would have been smarter to lock down chargers more.
Sorry, it's only about profit maximization and design.
That’s one factor in the decision, for sure. Never said it wasn’t. But it’s definitely not the only factor.
The liability argument is a red herring.
No, it definitely isn’t. Have you somehow not noticed how litigious people are, e.g. in USA? If someone gets injured or killed, and something exists that the manufacturer could have done but didn’t, they’re open for a lawsuit. It doesn’t mean the plaintiff will win. It doesn’t mean the argument is reasonable. But a lawsuit costs time and money, and in the case of companies, even if they win, it can easily happen that public opinion turns on them. (Like Ford with the Pinto: Ford’s image suffered tremendously from the Pinto lawsuits, even though in the end, it was shown that the Pinto was no more likely to catch fire in a rear-end collision than any competing small car.)
In the end, a company’s lawyers (and the liability insurance companies who will be paying out if damage is awarded) will perform careful risk analyses which will determine which options are even on the table. Other factors will then decide which of those options to go with.
Another example: brake pads for your car. Do you have to get them replaced with new ones from the car manufacturer at a licenced dealership/garage? Or can you go to any garage you like and get brake pads from whatever brand available? Or even swap them yourself?
Have you not noticed that this is exactly the direction car repairs have been going?
But realistically, your car has 4 brakes operated by at least two different mechanisms. So one brake pad failing isn’t likely to cause immediate danger.
The other thing is that in most cases where car parts have been to blame for harm or injury, it’s been clearly obvious who is to blame.
That’s a lot harder in a cellphone that’s been burnt to a crisp in its battery fire.
-
Another example: brake pads for your car. Do you have to get them replaced with new ones from the car manufacturer at a licenced dealership/garage? Or can you go to any garage you like and get brake pads from whatever brand available? Or even swap them yourself?
Have you not noticed that this is exactly the direction car repairs have been going?
But realistically, your car has 4 brakes operated by at least two different mechanisms. So one brake pad failing isn’t likely to cause immediate danger.
The other thing is that in most cases where car parts have been to blame for harm or injury, it’s been clearly obvious who is to blame.
That’s a lot harder in a cellphone that’s been burnt to a crisp in its battery fire.
Brake pads are a bad example, they are so simple to manufacture to work. It can be hard to make them be good, but the essential operation is super simple.
But look at the catalytic converters and particular filters. You can clearly see the market full of aftermarket and counterfeited parts that pretend to work but just do not work.
In countries where cars have mandatory checkups and measures, this is to some extent limited (even when in many places a bribe to a measuring technician is cheaper than good catalytic converter plenty of people will choose this alternative)
And in countries without those inspections, plenty of people will just run without them and just harm all the people without any concerns
Electronics have no inspections (and even when they should have some safety standards they are commonly fake because no one bothers with cheap stuff)
People are just irresponsible, they will be happily buying the cheapest batteries from Aliexpress till their house will burn down and they will cry and want the manufacturers of their phones and laptops to pay them for a new house
-
But if you were a multinational company with legal exposure worldwide, would you take the risk of getting sued when some family dies in a house fire caused by a crappy third party battery? Or will your lawyers say "lock that shit down"? Liability is a huge, huge issue, and companies have to make sure they avoid anything that could be considered negligence, as well as things that ambulance chasers and the media will twist into the appearance of negligence in the eyes of the public -- or a jury.
In this case I wonder why consumers are still allowed to use any charger they like. There have been multiple incidents with cheap and dangerous chargers. Sorry, it's only about profit maximization and design. The liability argument is a red herring. Another example: brake pads for your car. Do you have to get them replaced with new ones from the car manufacturer at a licenced dealership/garage? Or can you go to any garage you like and get brake pads from whatever brand available? Or even swap them yourself?
There situation with the batteries is cartel-like... For example, if one car manufacturer decided to make brake pads non-user-serviceable, that brand would probably lose sales as word got round. But if all the manufacturers do the same thing at the same time... they can claim this is an improvement that they are all doing, and the customer won't have a choice as nobody sells cars with replaceable brake pads!
-
[...]
I'm not saying that locking it down is always the right answer. But I can absolutely understand why companies do it.
Why doesn't the same thinking apply to laptops, or car batteries, or lantern/torch batteries, etc. etc. etc.? Historically, we are used to be able to replace batteries with any brand we like, in most products. It seems a stretch to argue that there is any benefit to the consumer for overpaying for wear parts such as batteries, ports, etc.
I’d say ubiquity of phones, and risk: we use the highest-density, most unstable lithium batteries in phones due to size and weight. It’s easy to make a lithium cell that’s more robust and can tolerate more abuse, but that makes them hold less energy and makes them physically larger due to armoring. (Like in cylindrical cells or battery packs with hard shells.)
The original manufacturer can carefully design a product around a temperamental lipo battery. Third parties may get it right, but many won’t.
With that said, I don’t think the other products you mention are actually good counterexamples.
Until modern purely-electric cars, car batteries have been simple lead acid affairs, where nothing bad is likely to happen if the battery goes bad. (And in modern all-electric cars, the lithium battery packs are locked down.)
Lantern batteries are historically, again, not lithium rechargeables, but alkaline or carbon zinc cells, again not hazardous. Rechargeable flashlights often don’t have removable batteries.
Laptop batteries generally have been locked down. Third parties either carefully rebuilt original ones, or reverse-engineered the authentication.
Are there any examples at all of commercial policies that you would consider to be profiteering, or are you willing to always give them the benefit of any faint doubt?
Do you see nothing wrong with Dymo putting chips in their labels to prevent customers buying labels from third parties, for example?
-
I wouldn’t use the word “wrong” in the sense of it being immoral, I just think it’s stupid and annoying, such that I won’t buy their product. “Bad” yes, “wrong” no. Same with printer ink, Juicero pods, and many other things.
Where “wrong” in the sense of immoral does apply, IMHO, is things like medication, such as the $600 epi-pens, $1500/month Truvada (HIV-preventing pill that costs pennies to make), and in general, healthcare and education as profit centers.
Every single example I was discussing in this thread is safety-related. And to repeat what I said: I never said safety/liability is the SOLE factor. That would be naive.
But it’s equally naive to think that ALL companies ONLY consider profit maximization in their decisions to the exclusion of all else. There are many competing factors and motivations: legal, image, reputation, competition, short term vs long term profit vs market share growth vs profit share growth vs stock price growth, company culture and values, and many more I’m sure.
It’s frustrating that every time someone (be it me or someone else) brings up the fact that business decisions aren’t usually as black-and-white, good-vs-evil as they’re made out to be, people attack or dismiss us as being naive, stupid, or ill-informed, when frankly, it’s usually them who are ill-informed or narrow-minded.
-
But it’s equally naive to think that ALL companies ONLY consider profit maximization in their decisions to the exclusion of all else.
I know you qualify that with 'of all else' but how does it square with:
But as a publicly traded company, making money is their primary goal, as is literally required by law.
-
I have asked for a new laptop at work. Current one is 6 years old, one USB port has failed, another is starting to fail and in any case it's an old system, my couple years newer intel nuc runs laps around it.
I've looked at some catalogs.
All have USB C ports, one dedicated to charging. Some also have a regular ("legacy" as in "it can use the older brick wall charger") charging port.
The port dedicated to charging is indicated with a lightning with an arrow symbol, pretty easy to understand. The symbol changes with the manufacturer but you get it, it's obvious.
From the list i chose the laptop that had most "conventional" ports, as i need to be connected to ethernet at times, and two-three usb gadgets.
Obviously i could use a docking station or a port expander. As a matter of fact, when i'm at my desk the laptop is connected to a dock and everything is connected to the dock. But when the laptop is on my lap, things better be connected directly.
Only the higher priced laptops came with 3-4 USB-C and nothing else. i had plenty of choice for my needs, and it's still compliant to the USB-C mandate for charging.
At this moment the USB-C thing is a non issue.
-
But it’s equally naive to think that ALL companies ONLY consider profit maximization in their decisions to the exclusion of all else.
I know you qualify that with 'of all else' but how does it square with:
But as a publicly traded company, making money is their primary goal, as is literally required by law.
Two ways:
1. Not all companies are publicly traded.
2. This:
There are many competing factors and motivations: legal, image, reputation, competition, short term vs long term profit vs market share growth vs profit share growth vs stock price growth, company culture and values, and many more I’m sure.
” short term vs long term profit vs market share growth vs profit share growth vs stock price growth” are all ways of making money.
-
'We' as individuals, can never change 'progress', good or bad. I, as an 'older' person now, and suffering from 'Brain-Farts'
will not progress from my days of USB ports. Though that doesn't matter!! as when I'm soon gone, the World will go on!!!
I 'Think' I understand the usefulness of Type-C, and it's applications, however I can't help feeling that it's as much a direction
in reducing onboard hardware, in order to reduce production costs? Everything we need now, is via external devices etc.
Now, for say $8 to $12 if you want, you can add a 4-port USB-3 to a C-port, so why worry?? I just don't think about it!!! 8)
-
you can add a 4-port USB-3 to a C-port, so why worry
There's a limit to how many hubs you can chain, and some devices don't like being even one hub away from the PC port. In particular, the USB spec says that bus-powered hubs may not be connected in series to other bus-powered hubs.
-
Now, for say $8 to $12 if you want, you can add a 4-port USB-3 to a C-port, so why worry?? I just don't think about it!!! 8)
I would happily pay an extra $25 for the laptop with 4 USB ports over the one with just a single port.
Are we starting to see how 'making money' is not simple?
-
Fitting 4 USB ports on a modern laptop is usually from difficult to impossible. They are just too small and too thin. And market asks for that I guess, since it sells.
I personally don't see this as much of a problem per se though (I have more problems with those ugly ultra-flat keyboards), as I tend to use laptops while on the go and desktop computers otherwise. And on the go, the small number of ports is usually alright - with an occasional use of external hub if needed.
But that's just me.
-
I have a recent-ish thinkpad T490 which has a decent number and variety of ports. - so it is still possible to get ports...
-
Regarding the power tools battery system talked before, where Bosch and other brands join together in developing tools who use the same battery system:
https://youtu.be/_rHtdDBM5ds
Yeah I know is typical marketing blab, just stating that in some cases standards are not bad for the consumer.
-
USB-C is a pile of shit connector design. Data speeds aside, lightning is many times more robust and more well thought through in terms of design. Based on this, it stands to reason that Apple will supercede it with a better, equally (or more) robust plug and socket than the current lightning port. USB-C doesn't factor into their plans for phones; anyone with enough nouse and experience with the DNA and ethos of Apple KNOWS this, it's not even a point of "discussion" as it's not gonna happen.
iPad needs more power to charge, so Apple used USB-C a stop-gap until whatever plans they have for a new connector (or maybe just wireless, but VERY doubtful based on the appalling efficiency and fad-like nature of current wireless charging garbage) are released into their portfolio of devices.
Apple AIN'T everyone else. They don't care what everyone else is doing, nor what they want. Traditional thought patterns and simplistic assumptions DO NOT WORK when analysing Apple. You don't get to become mobile product leader by tagging along and kowtowing to the whims of what others do, or what the public and the other OEMs want. Nope. They DOMINATE the tablet and phone markets. They will do what they have planned, do not underestimate the brains at Cupertino, they're light years ahead of the rest.
What you see as a "new" Apple product is old hat... they've had that finished and on the shelf, ready to go, signed off and have moved onto the next 3-4 generations of designs LONNNNNNG ago. It's new TO US, not to them.
USB-C on iPhone won't ever happen. Print this out and take it to the bank, cash it when I'm shown to be right. I know Apple inside out.
-
USB-C on iPhone won't ever happen. Print this out and take it to the bank, cash it when I'm shown to be right. I know Apple inside out.
And USB on Apple devices will never happen because Firewire is so much better.
-
USB-C on iPhone won't ever happen. Print this out and take it to the bank, cash it when I'm shown to be right. I know Apple inside out.
And USB on Apple devices will never happen because Firewire is so much better.
You're a funny man. But I'm a correct one. Wait and see.
-
USB-C is a pile of shit connector design. Data speeds aside, lightning is many times more robust and more well thought through in terms of design. Based on this, it stands to reason that Apple will supercede it with a better, equally (or more) robust plug and socket than the current lightning port. USB-C doesn't factor into their plans for phones; anyone with enough nouse and experience with the DNA and ethos of Apple KNOWS this, it's not even a point of "discussion" as it's not gonna happen.
Bullcrap. Apple gladly uses industry standards when they suffice. It’s only when no industry standard meets their requirements that they roll their own. That’s the Apple DNA/ethos.
I’m honestly not sure why Apple hasn’t moved the iPhone to USB-C yet. The only argument against it is that existing iPhone owners already have lots of Lightning accessories.
-
I’m honestly not sure why Apple hasn’t moved the iPhone to USB-C yet. The only argument against it is that existing iPhone owners already have lots of Lightning accessories.
As I said previously in this topic I believe it is because of the MFi certification who earns them money per accessory, not product.
Here's the quote with relevant links
For some of us playing along at home, form factor aside, what can the lightning interface do that the USB-C cannot? Or am I trying to oversimplify it?
Provide an extra avenue of revenue for Apple. That's the only difference between the Apple Lightning port and USB-C.
Both are reversible, both the plug gets damaged first than the port on the device, both support video and audio.
USB-C is better on power delivery.
Any accessory to be certified (every accessory, not a line of accessories) have to pay a tax to Apple to have the logo of MFi - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22209924
https://appleinsider.com/articles/14/02/07/apple-lowers-mfi-lightening-licensing-fees-paving-way-for-more-affordable-ios-accessories-
So that is the main reason, all the other reasons they say being increase waste, controlling the experience of owning and using their product is just a smoke screen from the real reason.
-
I know Apple inside out.
So you're saying they're going to exit the EU market?
-
The only argument against it is that existing iPhone owners already have lots of Lightning accessories
Apple caring about compatibility to legacy kit? yea they got a good history of doing that
-
USB-C is a pile of shit connector design. Data speeds aside, lightning is many times more robust and more well thought through in terms of design. Based on this, it stands to reason that Apple will supercede it with a better, equally (or more) robust plug and socket than the current lightning port. USB-C doesn't factor into their plans for phones; anyone with enough nouse and experience with the DNA and ethos of Apple KNOWS this, it's not even a point of "discussion" as it's not gonna happen.
Bullcrap. Apple gladly uses industry standards when they suffice. It’s only when no industry standard meets their requirements that they roll their own. That’s the Apple DNA/ethos.
I’m honestly not sure why Apple hasn’t moved the iPhone to USB-C yet. The only argument against it is that existing iPhone owners already have lots of Lightning accessories.
I explained why. You reject it. Oh well. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
-
I know Apple inside out.
So you're saying they're going to exit the EU market?
The "EU" *SAY* that they will enforce it, Apple WILL find a way around it, or ignore them. Don't people learn from experience? No one wants a SHIT standard, least of all Apple.
-
I know Apple inside out.
So you're saying they're going to exit the EU market?
The "EU" *SAY* that they will enforce it, Apple WILL find a way around it, or ignore them. Don't people learn from experience? No one wants a SHIT standard, least of all Apple.
The sheer arrogance you attribute to Apple is a mere fraction of your own.
-
USB-C is a pile of shit connector design. Data speeds aside, lightning is many times more robust and more well thought through in terms of design. Based on this, it stands to reason that Apple will supercede it with a better, equally (or more) robust plug and socket than the current lightning port. USB-C doesn't factor into their plans for phones; anyone with enough nouse and experience with the DNA and ethos of Apple KNOWS this, it's not even a point of "discussion" as it's not gonna happen.
Bullcrap. Apple gladly uses industry standards when they suffice. It’s only when no industry standard meets their requirements that they roll their own. That’s the Apple DNA/ethos.
I’m honestly not sure why Apple hasn’t moved the iPhone to USB-C yet. The only argument against it is that existing iPhone owners already have lots of Lightning accessories.
I explained why. You reject it. Oh well. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Well yeah, because it’s wrong, and obviously so. I very, very much understand the Apple ethos, and it’s clear to me you don’t understand it, and don’t know Apple’s history as well as you think you do. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
-
The only argument against it is that existing iPhone owners already have lots of Lightning accessories
Apple caring about compatibility to legacy kit? yea they got a good history of doing that
It’s not that so much as it is avoiding the “oh, they’re forcing customers to buy new accessories/dongles AGAIN” whining, like happened after switching to Lightning.
-
I’m honestly not sure why Apple hasn’t moved the iPhone to USB-C yet. The only argument against it is that existing iPhone owners already have lots of Lightning accessories.
As I said previously in this topic I believe it is because of the MFi certification who earns them money per accessory, not product.
Here's the quote with relevant links
For some of us playing along at home, form factor aside, what can the lightning interface do that the USB-C cannot? Or am I trying to oversimplify it?
Provide an extra avenue of revenue for Apple. That's the only difference between the Apple Lightning port and USB-C.
Both are reversible, both the plug gets damaged first than the port on the device, both support video and audio.
USB-C is better on power delivery.
Any accessory to be certified (every accessory, not a line of accessories) have to pay a tax to Apple to have the logo of MFi - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22209924
https://appleinsider.com/articles/14/02/07/apple-lowers-mfi-lightening-licensing-fees-paving-way-for-more-affordable-ios-accessories-
So that is the main reason, all the other reasons they say being increase waste, controlling the experience of owning and using their product is just a smoke screen from the real reason.
I know you wrote that, but I don’t think it’s correct. MFi certification is required to use Lightning, but it’s also required to use the MFi logo on things that don’t use Lightning. (For example, an iPhone-compatible USB jack on a car stereo or home cinema receiver. You can make it compatible without licensing, but you can’t use the logo. Or Bluetooth.) There’s no reason to assume the MFi revenues would simply disappear even if Lightning gave way to USB-C.
-
It is possible the apple might make a port-less iPhone before they make a USB-C one.
Going to USB-C is something sensible but wouldn't really make for much of a big news in the apple circles when they announce it on the next apple keynote, especially since iPads already have it. But announcing a iPhone without any USB port, now that is industry wide news. Apple is good at taking away things and then marketing it as a feature. They already did it with the headphone jack.
Not that it matters for me. I am an Android user, all modern Android phones are USB-C. Tho the headphone jack deletion trend has spread to Android now too.
-
I honestly doubt Apple will eliminate USB on the iPhone any time soon. It’s not just a charging port after all. In addition to wired headsets, it’s used for accessories (like memory card readers, audio interfaces, thermal imaging cameras, and video output adapters), automotive connectivity, and device servicing. Yes, many of those can be done wirelessly (and are done wirelessly already), but not all.
-
A port-less iPhone would be a disaster. You could only charge it wirelessly, so forget about being able to charge it in your pocket on a power bank, or in some random office somewhere. It would be a commercially brainless decision. I never agreed with the headphone jack removal, because it seemed trivial, but ultimately I've never found a need for a headphone jack since getting Bluetooth headphones (and their battery life is great: easily 100 hours, so with my usage profile, they get charged once a month.)
-
They already [took away] the headphone jack
Before that, the floppy disk just as 3.5" was becoming ubiquitous. Then the CD, just as people couldn't imagine not having a CD drive.
-
I honestly doubt Apple will eliminate USB on the iPhone any time soon. It’s not just a charging port after all. In addition to wired headsets, it’s used for accessories (like memory card readers, audio interfaces, thermal imaging cameras, and video output adapters), automotive connectivity, and device servicing. Yes, many of those can be done wirelessly (and are done wirelessly already), but not all.
Perhaps with Android where you can plug in any USB thing and it just works.
When it comes to iPhones the selection of lightning accessories is not very broad. Most used is for charging, but apples website is already selling all sorts of wireless charging accesories, from desk chargers to car mounts etc... Yes there is the lightning to 3.5mm headphone jack adapter but most iPhone users probably want to be seen with trendy AirPods anyway. When it comes to SD cards the software doesn't actually let you browse it but instead just import all the photos from the card into the phone and similar. When it comes to USB host adapter cables it similarly only supports importing certain types of data and that is it, in a lot of cases read only too. When it comes to video output the lightning connector is so slow that it needs video compressed into mpeg or h264 or something, sent over the cable, then decoded back into video by a CPU (that is actually a older model Iphone SOC) in the dongle to create the video output. As for thermal cameras... most iPhone users probably don't even know what that is, they will tell you they can make the same thing using a colorful Instagram filter.
Yes removing the USB port would be a colossally dumb idea, but they are the same company that came up with things like no SD card sockets, no headphone jacks, no filesystem, having only a single button that just takes you home..etc and still selling the product like hot cakes.
-
They already [took away] the headphone jack
Before that, the floppy disk just as 3.5" was becoming ubiquitous.
What? No, the 3.5” floppy had become ubiquitous by the end of the 1980s. Apple started to get rid of it in 1998, when the 3.5” floppy was already problematically small for modern uses.
-
I honestly doubt Apple will eliminate USB on the iPhone any time soon. It’s not just a charging port after all. In addition to wired headsets, it’s used for accessories (like memory card readers, audio interfaces, thermal imaging cameras, and video output adapters), automotive connectivity, and device servicing. Yes, many of those can be done wirelessly (and are done wirelessly already), but not all.
Perhaps with Android where you can plug in any USB thing and it just works.
I’m not discussing Android phones. Irrelevant here.
When it comes to iPhones the selection of lightning accessories is not very broad.
I listed actual Lightning accessory types and uses beyond charging.
Most used is for charging, but apples website is already selling all sorts of wireless charging accesories, from desk chargers to car mounts etc...
Uh huh. And?
Yes there is the lightning to 3.5mm headphone jack adapter but most iPhone users probably want to be seen with trendy AirPods anyway.
Despite what Apple haters say, few people choose Apple products simply “to be seen” with “trendy” things. They buy them because they work well for them.
When it comes to SD cards the software doesn't actually let you browse it but instead just import all the photos from the card into the phone and similar. When it comes to USB host adapter cables it similarly only supports importing certain types of data and that is it, in a lot of cases read only too. When it comes to video output the lightning connector is so slow that it needs video compressed into mpeg or h264 or something, sent over the cable, then decoded back into video by a CPU (that is actually a older model Iphone SOC) in the dongle to create the video output.
Your point? I didn’t say it was a full-fledged USB port.
As for thermal cameras... most iPhone users probably don't even know what that is, they will tell you they can make the same thing using a colorful Instagram filter.
That’s true, insofar as most humans don’t know what a thermal camera is, regardless of what phone type they use.
Yes removing the USB port would be a colossally dumb idea, but they are the same company that came up with things like no SD card sockets, no headphone jacks, no filesystem, having only a single button that just takes you home..etc and still selling the product like hot cakes.
Of those, the headphone jack is the only one I consider problematic in any way. The product sells like hotcakes because it’s a good product that works well for its users.
The entire point of the home button (which most models now don’t even have) was to always take you to the home screen. Perfectly logical and sensible. No iPhone ever made has only had a single button: all models have had hardware volume controls, sleep/wake button, and mute switch.
-
The entire point of the home button (which most models now don’t even have) was to always take you to the home screen. Perfectly logical and sensible. No iPhone ever made has only had a single button: all models have had hardware volume controls, sleep/wake button, and mute switch.
you know what he meant. Us android users have three buttons on the screen (which used to be physical there as well) and they work in a certain way. It's more logical to me and i get frustrated every time i use an iphone for app development. In fact i find many ui and ux choices frustrating, but that's me. Thankfully i can choose not to use an iphone, and i am aware that for many people i it's the exact opposite
-
Android vs iPhone is mostly a matter of taste, probably best to leave that for another thread.
Android still has the 3 front buttons that they had from the beginning (tho the context menu button changed roles into a multitask button) but they have moved from being physical buttons into being touch buttons due to phones being all screen now. They stay there all the time and only move out of the way in full screen modes to give you more screen area for watching videos and the like. For my personal taste i like the extra buttons that stay in the same spot rather then having every app handle going back differently. Tho my iOS experience is from an iPad but it can't be that much different from an iPhone.
My point with the Lightning port is that 95% of users have likely only ever used it for charging the phone, something that these days can easily be done wirelessly too. Especially since iPhones didn't have the fastest charging speeds over USB so they are easier to recreate in wireless charging. Not that i personally want the insane speed 120W charging that some Android phones can do (i charge it slow over night anyway and this speed can't be good for the battery) but a lot of people seam to care about charging speed a lot.
These products are unfortunately made for the average joe user, so this is where the design focuses on, not the rarer power users. Same reason why Win 10/11 is taking these questionable design choices.
-
If the EU actually cares about the environment, then they should be banning wireless charging, not non-USB-C ports. One could also argue they should ban fast charging since it creates more e-waste by wearing out the battery faster. (I’m not suggesting they actually do this, just calling out the hypocrisy of the mandate.)
Anyhow, 20W USB-C-to-Lightning and 15W MagSafe charging are already faster than I like for routine charging. iPhones do 7.5W Qi charging and roughly similar USB-A-to-Lightning charging. I use a 5W USB charger whenever I’m not in a hurry.
-
The EU does care about the environment and a lot of things, the problem is that the people who make the decisions don't seam to understand technology all that well. So some of these laws are dumb or incomplete. They also take a while to actually get them trough so the laws might come into affect once a given technology has already proliferated everywhere.
I also use slow 5W charging on purpose and i don't have a phone that supports wireless charging anyway. But i would likely use wireless if i had the option. I always leave my phone in the same spot overnight to charge, so wireless would save me having to plug it in every night. But i still want to keep my USB and 3.5mm jack
The phone manufacturers already stopped including chargers in the box for saving the environment, but they actually did it to save money. It is one way to save waste, but at the same time people are going to instead buy the horrible bottom of the barrel chinese chargers that electrocute people and catch fire. I like having multiple chargers laying around while some people might want the fast charging that the old charger can't do. Not all solutions are black and white.
The thing that did the most good for the environment around this is splitting the charger and USB cable. That way you can use the same cable with a computer or charger. The thing that dies is often the cable (especially the fancy sleek apple ones in my experience) so if that happens the cable can be replaced and charger reused. It also means that when USB-C replaced microUSB the same chargers could still be used. Tho i am guessing what drove this change was that a female USB-A connector was cheaper than 1.5m of cable with a microUSB on the end.
-
The EU does care about the environment and a lot of things, the problem is that the people who make the decisions don't seam to understand technology all that well. So some of these laws are dumb or incomplete.
Completely agree. Many dumb laws are passed with the best of intentions. But because the lawmakers aren’t subject matter experts, and evidently do not actually defer to subject matter experts enough, they end up passing dumb laws because they want to be seen as doing something. :/
The phone manufacturers already stopped including chargers in the box for saving the environment, but they actually did it to save money. It is one way to save waste, but at the same time people are going to instead buy the horrible bottom of the barrel chinese chargers that electrocute people and catch fire. I like having multiple chargers laying around while some people might want the fast charging that the old charger can't do. Not all solutions are black and white.
That is a really good point. You and I know to avoid Chinese garbage, but so many consumers don’t. (And shouldn’t have to.)
The thing that did the most good for the environment around this is splitting the charger and USB cable. That way you can use the same cable with a computer or charger. The thing that dies is often the cable (especially the fancy sleek apple ones in my experience) so if that happens the cable can be replaced and charger reused. It also means that when USB-C replaced microUSB the same chargers could still be used. Tho i am guessing what drove this change was that a female USB-A connector was cheaper than 1.5m of cable with a microUSB on the end.
Yes, permanently attached cords are the devil! Separating the charger from the cord has probably prevented HUGE amounts of e-waste.
I agree that Apple’s USB to Lightning (and before that, 30-pin dock connector) cords have never been the most robust. But for what it’s worth, their more recent ones have been a lot better. The early ones (2001-2008ish) weren’t too bad. Then they switched to their first-generation PVC-free insulation, and that stuff proved to be awful: it gets somewhat brittle, but the real problem is that it somehow extends longitudinally, until it bursts into shreds. Then around maybe 2015 or so they switched to some other PVC-free material and those seem to be holding up fairly well. They aren’t as robust as the best third-party cables (like Anker), but they’re also a whole lot thinner, which is handy for travel.
What I am delighted about is the USB-C–based MagSafe on recent MacBooks, using detachable cords.
-
The EU does care about the environment and a lot of things, the problem is that the people who make the decisions don't seam to understand technology all that well. So some of these laws are dumb or incomplete. They also take a while to actually get them trough so the laws might come into affect once a given technology has already proliferated everywhere.
I also use slow 5W charging on purpose and i don't have a phone that supports wireless charging anyway. But i would likely use wireless if i had the option. I always leave my phone in the same spot overnight to charge, so wireless would save me having to plug it in every night. But i still want to keep my USB and 3.5mm jack
The phone manufacturers already stopped including chargers in the box for saving the environment, but they actually did it to save money. It is one way to save waste, but at the same time people are going to instead buy the horrible bottom of the barrel chinese chargers that electrocute people and catch fire. I like having multiple chargers laying around while some people might want the fast charging that the old charger can't do. Not all solutions are black and white.
The thing that did the most good for the environment around this is splitting the charger and USB cable. That way you can use the same cable with a computer or charger. The thing that dies is often the cable (especially the fancy sleek apple ones in my experience) so if that happens the cable can be replaced and charger reused. It also means that when USB-C replaced microUSB the same chargers could still be used. Tho i am guessing what drove this change was that a female USB-A connector was cheaper than 1.5m of cable with a microUSB on the end.
Wireless charging has never worked well for me, I went back to wired charging after several attempts.
Standardising on USB-C is OK with me. I have plenty of USB-C to Mini-USB adapters to keep older equipment fed.
-
USB-C seems to attract and accumulate fluff (and, er, stuff) that mini and micro didin't. Periodically I have to root around in the connector with a very fine point to remove compacted layers that prevent the plug being pushed fully home.
-
Eh, I've had to blow the muck out of micro USB connectors for years too, haven't really noticed too much difference there.
Don't think it makes much difference how far you insert mini, it'll fall out again promptly. I swear that connector will defy gravity to fall out upwards.
-
This isn't blowable. It confused me because I thought it was the back of the connector - it is really compacted very well and takes some effort to dig out. The only reason I realised it wasn't part of the connector plastic was because the plug obviously didn't go right the way in, leaving about half a mm gap.
-
+10,000 to Apple for plug and socket design, as I have maintained for years:
https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/eckp0n/extraodinarily_unpopular_opinion_lightning_is/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/eckp0n/extraodinarily_unpopular_opinion_lightning_is/)
USB-C is flimsy folded metal crap, with no retention latch. Lightning plugs are made of SOLID STEEL, machined out to fit the insulator and contact carrier, and has a dimple on each narrow side where the retention mechanism (ball bearings under spring pressure, from the sides of the socket, I believe) engages.
The USB-C bods could AT THE LEAST have made a better physical design! Also, why didn't they implement a STRICT usage & licencing scheme like Apple's "MFI" ("Made For iPhone") scheme? USB-C is a heap of crap, not least for the fact that picking a cable is a lottery; hope you don't want your stuff catching on fire, or having data stolen!!
-
+10,000 to Apple for plug and socket design, as I have maintained for years:
https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/eckp0n/extraodinarily_unpopular_opinion_lightning_is/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/eckp0n/extraodinarily_unpopular_opinion_lightning_is/)
USB-C is flimsy folded metal crap, with no retention latch. Lightning plugs are made of SOLID STEEL, machined out to fit the insulator and contact carrier, and has a dimple on each narrow side where the retention mechanism (ball bearings under spring pressure, from the sides of the socket, I believe) engages.
The USB-C bods could AT THE LEAST have made a better physical design! Also, why didn't they implement a STRICT usage & licencing scheme like Apple's "MFI" ("Made For iPhone") scheme? USB-C is a heap of crap, not least for the fact that picking a cable is a lottery; hope you don't want your stuff catching on fire, or having data stolen!!
Uhmm hummm:
https://www.idownloadblog.com/2012/10/09/apples-lightning-authentication-already-cracked/ (https://www.idownloadblog.com/2012/10/09/apples-lightning-authentication-already-cracked/)
https://www.vice.com/en/article/bj34z5/why-counterfeit-lightning-cables-kill-iphones-cheap-iphone-chargers (https://www.vice.com/en/article/bj34z5/why-counterfeit-lightning-cables-kill-iphones-cheap-iphone-chargers)
Testers/readers/writers for MFI cables chip:
(https://i.imgur.com/QdC527n.jpg)
Tips sold by the hundreds to manufacturer fake cables:
(https://i.imgur.com/lNaRzfe.jpg)
And I can guarantee that those tips are not machined.
-
+10,000 to Apple for plug and socket design, as I have maintained for years:
https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/eckp0n/extraodinarily_unpopular_opinion_lightning_is/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/eckp0n/extraodinarily_unpopular_opinion_lightning_is/)
USB-C is flimsy folded metal crap, with no retention latch. Lightning plugs are made of SOLID STEEL, machined out to fit the insulator and contact carrier, and has a dimple on each narrow side where the retention mechanism (ball bearings under spring pressure, from the sides of the socket, I believe) engages.
The USB-C bods could AT THE LEAST have made a better physical design! Also, why didn't they implement a STRICT usage & licencing scheme like Apple's "MFI" ("Made For iPhone") scheme? USB-C is a heap of crap, not least for the fact that picking a cable is a lottery; hope you don't want your stuff catching on fire, or having data stolen!!
Uhmm hummm:
https://www.idownloadblog.com/2012/10/09/apples-lightning-authentication-already-cracked/ (https://www.idownloadblog.com/2012/10/09/apples-lightning-authentication-already-cracked/)
https://www.vice.com/en/article/bj34z5/why-counterfeit-lightning-cables-kill-iphones-cheap-iphone-chargers (https://www.vice.com/en/article/bj34z5/why-counterfeit-lightning-cables-kill-iphones-cheap-iphone-chargers)
Testers/readers/writers for MFI cables chip:
(https://i.imgur.com/QdC527n.jpg)
Tips sold by the hundreds to manufacturer fake cables:
(https://i.imgur.com/lNaRzfe.jpg)
And I can guarantee that those tips are not machined.
Apple will merely update iOS and kick out the iffy MFI chips. You’re talking about a company that has designed and manufactured their own silicon for many years, the latest iterations of which blow Intel out of the water. I can’t imagine a few knock off MFI chips being much of a challenge to such a brain tank behemoth.
Regardless of this, it was clear I’m referring the the genuine design and manufactured plugs and sockets, and the overall thought put into their design and robustness. USB-C is an embarrassing joke, physically AND with the endless slew of idiotic, confusing variants.
-
Apple will merely update iOS and kick out the iffy MFI chips. You’re talking about a company that has designed and manufactured their own silicon for many years, the latest iterations of which blow Intel out of the water. I can’t imagine a few knock off MFI chips being much of a challenge to such a brain tank behemoth.
Uhmmm hummm, the first news is from 2012, when it was cracked. It really takes a lot of years for Apple to block this knockoffs...
OK I feed you enough. Back to my ignore list.
-
Apple will merely update iOS and kick out the iffy MFI chips. You’re talking about a company that has designed and manufactured their own silicon for many years, the latest iterations of which blow Intel out of the water. I can’t imagine a few knock off MFI chips being much of a challenge to such a brain tank behemoth.
Uhmmm hummm, the first news is from 2012, when it was cracked. It really takes a lot of years for Apple to block this knockoffs...
OK I feed you enough. Back to my ignore list.
Don’t tell me, tell Apple. 😁
-
USB-C seems to attract and accumulate fluff (and, er, stuff) that mini and micro didin't. Periodically I have to root around in the connector with a very fine point to remove compacted layers that prevent the plug being pushed fully home.
The Samsung S5 has a little cover that you have to fiddle with when using the port. - on the upside, it has never clogged with lint etc.
-
Wonder why it affects USB-C and not micro or mini (it's not just me - I had a replacement socket on order before I found other affected users on t'web and decided to really excavate the socket). Possibly the larger opening acts as a funnel for the smaller internals.
A plus point, though, is it seems the cable tends to wear before the socket. I have two almost identical cables from the same manufacturer, the only difference being the length. I typically use the same one all the time to charge my phone, and sometimes it takes longer than expected to charge. For instance, just now it was achieving 1.2A. But the other cable is always at full rate (just now 2.0A).
-
So, it does not appear that apple found a way around it - https://www.theverge.com/2022/10/26/23423977/iphone-usb-c-eu-law-joswiak-confirms-compliance-lightning (https://www.theverge.com/2022/10/26/23423977/iphone-usb-c-eu-law-joswiak-confirms-compliance-lightning)
Now all apple fanboys will have to find a way to explain that USB-C is now good because apple won't use bad stuff.
-
Funny, I'm sure he just said exactly what I said months ago.
-
USB-C on iPhone won't ever happen. Print this out and take it to the bank, cash it when I'm shown to be right. I know Apple inside out.
Damn. Looks like that's gone the way of the rest of the economy too.
-
USB-C on iPhone won't ever happen. Print this out and take it to the bank, cash it when I'm shown to be right. I know Apple inside out.
Damn. Looks like that's gone the way of the rest of the economy too.
Aged like milk...
-
Probably said already, but just continue as with the lightning cables and have a chip there, but with enhanced features. Non-genuine cable detected -> piss poor charging speed for you, Sir/Ma'am.
-
Lets just hope they also do the sensible thing and also support USB-PD for charging, rather than invent yet another proprietary power negotiation protocol that will only fast charge apple devices.
-
Lets just hope they also do the sensible thing and also support USB-PD for charging, rather than invent yet another proprietary power negotiation protocol that will only fast charge apple devices.
Isn't USB-PD part of the requirements? I think the rules say something about USB-PD required when you exceed a certain charging power.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20220930IPR41928/long-awaited-common-charger-for-mobile-devices-will-be-a-reality-in-2024 (https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20220930IPR41928/long-awaited-common-charger-for-mobile-devices-will-be-a-reality-in-2024)
At least the press release heavily implies that, since it talks about interchangable USB Power Supplies.
-
Could be very well that apple will comply by leaving the lightning connector but removing the possibility to use it for charging.
Instead they'll implement wireless charging using their proprietary protocol.
-
I don't see Apple doing a wireless only iPhone, they would be massively behind the competition in charging speed. A modern smartphone can do 25-30W charging now (how good that is for the battery is debateable I guess) whereas Lightning was already behind at 14W, and Apple's wireless charging is limited to 15W.
-
For me personally, charging speed would not be the issue. I tend to avoid quick charging anyway, since the added heat might have influence on the lifetime of the battery. As long as it is from empty to full over night i'm fine with slow charging speeds. Though faster charging on demand would be a nice feature.
What i could not live without though, is the option of getting my photos off the phone without using the internet. Plug in the cable, allow access, and you can easily pull everything off. The direct connection is also essential to recover the phone via iTunes, so it is reassuring to have that option. And yes, i had bricked iPhones that i did need to recover.
Of course it might be possible to do local wireless connectivity with the fast charge pad, but i think that would be slow.
-
I have not went trough the details of this EU law, but as far as the USB-C specification goes the USB-PD support is an optional feature.
So a USB-C host may chose to not provide USB-PD functionality and simply provide a fixed 5V 1.5A on the port. At the same time a USB-C device may choose to just use the 5V available from the start and draw less than 1.5A. So you only need to use USB-PD if you want more power. This means if the EU law made USB-PD support mandatory, that would sort of go against the official USB-C specification.
All USB-C cables are supposed to be rated for a minimum of 3A so they might use that as there limit. There are also 5A cables that have to identify themselves with a chip.... that hopefully Apple won't get the idea to make a special one. No idea if messing with this violates the USB-C spec or the new EU law.
If the law was written in a smart way it would mandate USB-PD support for devices that consume between 7.5 to 100W. But there is no way the legal pencil pushers there would do this much research into the laws they are putting together.
-
If a charger port is available on the device, it MUST be a USB Type-C charging receptacle combined with the USB Power Delivery charging communication protocol.
https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-10713-2022-INIT/x/pdf (https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-10713-2022-INIT/x/pdf) page 28
-
3. In so far as they are capable of being recharged via wired charging at voltages higher
than 5 volts, currents higher than 3 amperes or powers higher than 15 watts, the
categories or classes of radio equipment referred to in point 1 letters a) to m) shall:
(a) incorporate the USB Power Delivery, as described in the standard EN IEC 62680-1-
2:2021 ‘Universal serial bus interfaces for data and power - Part 1-2: Common
components - USB Power Delivery specification’;
(b) ensure that any additional charging protocol allows the full functionality of the USB
Power Delivery referred to in point (a), irrespective of the charging device used
Yep it looks like you have to have USB-PD if you draw more than 15W, so that is well done. You are still allowed to have extra proprietary high power modes, but they still have to retain compatibility with USB-PD.
The slightly worrying thing is that this would require all laptops under 100W to use USB-C for charging (Okay those are ultralights anyway). However it also says that once 240W USB-PD becomes mature the law should be bumped up to there. This would now include the big chonky gaming/workstration laptops. Not sure if it is a good idea to have those sort of powers running trough the tiny connectors continuously (especially as these laptops get really hot too) while requiring the motherboards power input circuitry to handle 240W from a input voltage range of 5V to 48V. These boatanchor laptops could not change up any usable amount from anything less than 30W
-
AFAIK it's permitted under USB-PD to support only a limited voltage range.
You could have a laptop that refuses to charge from a 5V source -- I've tried it with my Lenovo laptop and it doesn't even bother lighting up the charging LED.
I do question 240W through a Type C connector though. My work laptop has a 300W brick, and it's a low end gaming laptop (not used for gaming: just happens to be rather good for FPGA work, too, with an 8-core Ryzen CPU.) So presumably one workaround would be to simply require a 300W+ adapter to be supported some other way.
-
Well, the EU might want to limit the maximum power of computers anyway, like they did for example with vacuum cleaners.
So, in the eyes of the EU, it might be a good thing that USB-PD can only go up to 240 Watts (for now).
-
Lets just hope they also do the sensible thing and also support USB-PD for charging, rather than invent yet another proprietary power negotiation protocol that will only fast charge apple devices.
Apple only came up with its proprietary charger identification back when the USB standards didn’t have any charger signaling whatsoever. This affected everyone: since the USB standard didn’t have charger identification at the time, everyone came up with their own thing. Not just Apple. Once the USB standards included charger identification (USB BC, in 2010), Apple made its devices compatible with that. All of Apple’s USB-C products* use bog-standard USB PD.
In other words: you’re whining about something that ceased being a thing over 10 years ago.
*With one exception: the 12” MacBook. It uses a weird voltage. But it’s not because Apple was dumb: USB-PD was not finalized at that point, and Apple followed the preliminary standard. Unfortunately, after Apple released it, the final PD standard changed the voltages, no longer including the one Apple was using. In other words: ALL Apple USB-C devices follow the latest PD standard at the time of release.
-
In other words: ALL Apple USB-C devices follow the latest PD standard at the time of release.
I guess the problem is related to Apple devices that don't have USB-C... 8)
-
USB-C on iPhone won't ever happen. Print this out and take it to the bank, cash it when I'm shown to be right. I know Apple inside out.
Damn. Looks like that's gone the way of the rest of the economy too.
Aged like milk...
Which sours and turns into cheese which can then sit on a shell for many years, maturing and developing flavour
-
Which sours and turns into cheese which can then sit on a shell for many years, maturing and developing flavour
Err, you don't make cheese by just letting milk go off. Cue Mitchell and Webb (British comedy TV series):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyyyh8_Afyw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyyyh8_Afyw)
-
In other words: ALL Apple USB-C devices follow the latest PD standard at the time of release.
I guess the problem is related to Apple devices that don't have USB-C... 8)
And you clearly either didn’t read, or didn’t understand, everything that I said before that.
Any Apple device released after USB BC came out support USB BC. (They also support the old Apple identification, so they can charge from existing Apple chargers, too).
You have to go back to really early devices to find one that absolutely requires an original charger. Again, not an “Apple problem”, but one of ANY device from that era.
You really need to drop it, because you either don’t know the reality of the situation, or are willfully ignoring it to try and make a point not supported by fact.
-
You really need to drop it, because you either don’t know the reality of the situation, or are willfully ignoring it to try and make a point not supported by fact.
Where is the USB-C connector on an Iphone?
-
You really need to drop it, because you either don’t know the reality of the situation, or are willfully ignoring it to try and make a point not supported by fact.
Where is the USB-C connector on an Iphone?
On the other end of the Lightning cable, for now. ;)
-
I don't support the EU in this, but I enjoy it because of the Apple fans who use might makes right as a moral argument for the way Apple runs the app store.
Meet the big boss and bend over.
-
I don't support the EU in this
Why not?
-
In the big scheme of things the impact on e-waste is virtually non existent, it won't create significantly more competition either because charger cables are the least of what is causing Apple ecosystem lock in and competitive advantage.
-
Sure, the e-waste thing is pretty silly. But haven't you benefited from not trying to find that particular PSU for some kit you haven't used for 3 months? Things don't come with PSUs you have to find a home for (and they never stack on the shelf as well as the kit they power), you can't plug the wrong one in and blow up something, etc.
Personally, I really appreciate being able to just grab some random spare cable and plug whatever it is into the 6-port USB supply. No captive cables to try and fix when they wear or just break because. If that means pretending it's all about e-waste, I'm happy to pretend :)
-
There will never be a good outcome from fricking technocratic government (and even less so from supranational entities) meddling in any topic other than obvious safety issues.
History is full of this shit and it never ends well. But we don't learn, so we just rinse and repeat.
If you don't like Apple products (or any other brand) for whatever reason, just don't buy them. Do you need mommy EU to help you?
And, it's not even clear that it helps anything at all. Actually, I wouldn't be hugely surprised if the overall environmental cost of elaborating and having all companies follow all those directives and standards to the letter was a lot higher than just letting them sell whatever they want as long as it's safe. Just a thought.
-
Do you need mommy EU to help you?
Only when the market is for whatever reason incapable of maintaining a competitive environment.
Consumer electronic ecosystem is an industry with the highest barriers to entry in human history. Only getting worse as more gets pulled into ecosystem integration and as Apple starts competing as first party in more markets, say cars, where due to Apple tax they have a built in competitive advantage. I just don't think this in particular is helping.
-
Do you need mommy EU to help you?
Sometimes, yes. Just look at big things that some PTB has mandated: plugs, electricity supply, car safety, glasses prescriptions, housing codes, trade descriptions, broadband protocols, there are many!
Left to their own devices, players in the market will tend to do their own thing and we'd be left with many incompatible things. The question is not whether there should be a higher authority enforcing compatibility, but what that authority should be concerned with. The wallwart field was crying out for someone to do this, but no-one did. Now they have and we're all the better for it. It may not have saved anything environmental (good things often cost in some way, you know) but we are better off because of it.
-
3. In so far as they are capable of being recharged via wired charging at voltages higher
than 5 volts, currents higher than 3 amperes or powers higher than 15 watts, the
categories or classes of radio equipment referred to in point 1 letters a) to m) shall:
(a) incorporate the USB Power Delivery, as described in the standard EN IEC 62680-1-
2:2021 ‘Universal serial bus interfaces for data and power - Part 1-2: Common
components - USB Power Delivery specification’;
(b) ensure that any additional charging protocol allows the full functionality of the USB
Power Delivery referred to in point (a), irrespective of the charging device used
Yep it looks like you have to have USB-PD if you draw more than 15W, so that is well done. You are still allowed to have extra proprietary high power modes, but they still have to retain compatibility with USB-PD.
The slightly worrying thing is that this would require all laptops under 100W to use USB-C for charging (Okay those are ultralights anyway). However it also says that once 240W USB-PD becomes mature the law should be bumped up to there. This would now include the big chonky gaming/workstration laptops. Not sure if it is a good idea to have those sort of powers running trough the tiny connectors continuously (especially as these laptops get really hot too) while requiring the motherboards power input circuitry to handle 240W from a input voltage range of 5V to 48V. These boatanchor laptops could not change up any usable amount from anything less than 30W
Using USB-C for a laptop is a terrible idea. Even small barrel jacks in some smaller laptops have a short life. And the hard soldered end in the laptop ruins the board.
USB-C is even more fragile than a simple jack.
Currently, thankfully laptops keep both connectors.
And I like how Lenovo solved it with a docking cable, where you have this double cable. It can work over Thunderbolt/USB alone but with limited power. (https://notebooks-trade.de/media/image/e9/ec/18/TBT-WS-Kabel-03X7540_-_Kopie.jpg)
-
And the hard soldered end in the laptop ruins the board.
For many years all decent laptops have had the charging port off the board for easier replacement. There's no reason at all that can't be done with USB-C.
Anyway, nobody's requiring the loss of a dedicated charging port - only the provision of a USB-C port capable of charging as a universal option.
-
And the hard soldered end in the laptop ruins the board.
For many years all decent laptops have had the charging port off the board for easier replacement. There's no reason at all that can't be done with USB-C.
There is: handling USB-C is much more complex than handling a DC input. So that requires dedicated ICs, multi-layer routing, etc. And if the port (which is what users will expect) can be used for data as well, then it must also be connected to the motherboard's chipset. All that would make a separate board much harder and more expensive.
Are you really comparing a simple board with a DC barrel jack and maybe some ESD diodes with what is required to handle USB-C power delivery? Yeah. :popcorn:
-
And the hard soldered end in the laptop ruins the board.
For many years all decent laptops have had the charging port off the board for easier replacement. There's no reason at all that can't be done with USB-C.
There is: handling USB-C is much more complex than handling a DC input. So that requires dedicated ICs, multi-layer routing, etc. And if the port (which is what users will expect) can be used for data as well, then it must also be connected to the motherboard's chipset. All that would make a separate board much harder and more expensive.
Are you really comparing a simple board with a DC barrel jack and maybe some ESD diodes with what is required to handle USB-C power delivery? Yeah. :popcorn:
Doesn't have to be co-located with the connector. What comes in on a cable can carry on in a cable, leaving a low cost module to replace if it suffers mechanical damage.
Laptops have done this for years with USB, including 3.0, and VGA, DVI, HDMI, DP, ethernet, analog audio..
-
On the other end of the Lightning cable, for now. ;)
"Under the new rules, consumers will no longer need a different charging device and cable every time they purchase a new device..."
Clearly, the law will dictate a USB-C port, not a custom cable. This means Apple will have to retrofit a connector to the Apple Watch to sell it in the EU; can't just use a magnetic charging "cable" (obviously it's more than just a cable - and this is why they won't be permitted).
And for the above to be true, a laptop will need to be able to charge off any USB charger, even a tiny phone or car one.
-
On the other end of the Lightning cable, for now. ;)
"Under the new rules, consumers will no longer need a different charging device and cable every time they purchase a new device..."
Clearly, the law will dictate a USB-C port, not a custom cable.
And for the above to be true, a laptop will need to be able to charge off any USB charger, even a tiny phone or car one.
Not the case. No requirement to operate off an impractically underpowered supply is made.
-
Not the case. No requirement to operate off an impractically underpowered supply is made.
Again, "Under the new rules, consumers will no longer need a different charging device and cable every time they purchase a new device..."
That's their language, not mine.
If you have to purchase a laptop charger with your laptop and can't use your phone charger, then the above isn't true.
-
Not the case. No requirement to operate off an impractically underpowered supply is made.
Again, "Under the new rules, consumers will no longer need a different charging device and cable every time they purchase a new device..."
That's their language, not mine.
If you have to purchase a laptop charger with your laptop and can't use your phone charger, then the above isn't true.
It's quite the logical leap to expect an existing 5V or 9V charger to usefully supply a laptop.
Oh, and no, you don't need to add a connector if you don't already have one - it explicitly states it applies to devices with a charging port.
-
And the hard soldered end in the laptop ruins the board.
For many years all decent laptops have had the charging port off the board for easier replacement. There's no reason at all that can't be done with USB-C.
There is: handling USB-C is much more complex than handling a DC input. So that requires dedicated ICs, multi-layer routing, etc. And if the port (which is what users will expect) can be used for data as well, then it must also be connected to the motherboard's chipset. All that would make a separate board much harder and more expensive.
Are you really comparing a simple board with a DC barrel jack and maybe some ESD diodes with what is required to handle USB-C power delivery? Yeah. :popcorn:
There are 6 pin power only USB-C connectors. Being compliant with the standard only requires 2 resistors.
Or if you want PD, then it's an extra IC which is about the complexity of a STM8.
And the hard soldered end in the laptop ruins the board.
For many years all decent laptops have had the charging port off the board for easier replacement. There's no reason at all that can't be done with USB-C.
Anyway, nobody's requiring the loss of a dedicated charging port - only the provision of a USB-C port capable of charging as a universal option.
Plus, all the laptops I use have PD charging on more than one port. So it's even redundant, making it more likely there is a working port.
-
I was over at the Apple site looking at one of the laptops and they seem to use a magnetically attached charging cable. This will eliminate the damage caused to the laptop should the power cord be pulled sideways or the laptop be pulled off the table. I guess the EU won't accept it...
I'm still waiting for USB-D connectors (yet to be invented) to force this stupid decision up a couple of notches.
Actually, I see adapters as the solution to all of this nonsense. There are adapters from Mini and Micro to C and there will clearly be a Lightning to C adapter.
-
Not the case. No requirement to operate off an impractically underpowered supply is made.
Again, "Under the new rules, consumers will no longer need a different charging device and cable every time they purchase a new device..."
That's their language, not mine.
If you have to purchase a laptop charger with your laptop and can't use your phone charger, then the above isn't true.
The 145 Watt Macbook Pro charger is going to be a bit of overkill for a cell phone. A 5 Watt cell phone charger is going to be useless for the laptop. This is all just regulation because they can. It remains to be seen how many companies dance to the tune or just ship adapters.
-
Not the case. No requirement to operate off an impractically underpowered supply is made.
Again, "Under the new rules, consumers will no longer need a different charging device and cable every time they purchase a new device..."
That's their language, not mine.
If you have to purchase a laptop charger with your laptop and can't use your phone charger, then the above isn't true.
The 145 Watt Macbook Pro charger is going to be a bit of overkill for a cell phone.
It's a bit of overkill 99% of the time it's connected to a Macbook.
It remains to be seen how many companies dance to the tune or just ship adapters.
None, because if you were to pay attention that's not an option. Which is the point.
-
Technocratic centralized regulation on such topics (again not strictly safety related, for which I have no problem with) is bullshit and it never yields anything good. The discussion in this thread has pointed out many flaws and I'm sure we haven't thought of them all yet. Have we learned nothing from the USSR? Holy crap.
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsDvkduPpw4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsDvkduPpw4)
-
Other than his mistaken claims of Apple “loving” proprietary tech in USB-C cables (which is categorically untrue; Apple doesn’t do anything proprietary with its USB-C interfaces or cables), I wholeheartedly agree with that video’s sentiments. There’s something to be said for mechanical keying of specific configurations…
-
(which is categorically untrue; Apple doesn’t do anything proprietary with its USB-C interfaces or cables)
Yet.
-
(which is categorically untrue; Apple doesn’t do anything proprietary with its USB-C interfaces or cables)
Yet.
What an idiotic argument. Apple has been using USB-C since 2017, always adhering to the latest version of the standard at the time of release.* Why would they start doing weird shenanigans now?
Apple has never been afraid to create a custom standard if existing ones don’t do what they want, but it’s not something they do gratuitously, contrary to the claims of the anti-Apple brigade, which likes to push narratives to make Apple look bad, wholly divorced from any factual basis.
It’s cheaper and easier to use standards when possible, and Apple knows this. That’s why Apple embraced USB back in 1998, ditching its old ports. Even before that, not everything was proprietary: Apple widely used PCI (Intel) and NuBus (Texas Instruments) expansion slots, Ethernet (Xerox et al), SCSI (Shugart), and PC-standard RAM modules. Mac serial ports used a different connnector, but supported RS-422 and RS-232 (with RS-422 being the preferred mode due to its much higher speeds).
Apple sometimes releases its designs to become industry standards, like with FireWire, mini-DisplayPort, and mDNS.
Sometimes, their efforts to create industry standards are scuttled by outside factors, like with FaceTime, which was supposed to go open, but then got saddled with lawsuits from patent holders claiming it violated their patents.
There was nothing comparable to Lightning when Lightning was released. Most phones then used micro-USB, which didn’t do what Apple wanted.
*I add this qualifier because of the 2017 12” MacBook, which was designed to the preliminary USB-PD standard that was the latest at the time. Unfortunately, when the final USB-PD standard was published, it actually changed some voltages, which is why the 12” MacBook, and the chargers Apple made for it, aren’t completely compliant with the final USB-PD standard. But it wasn’t gratuitous incompatibility, but a good-faith effort to follow the preliminary standard, which presumably hadn’t been expected to change so late in the development process.
-
(which is categorically untrue; Apple doesn’t do anything proprietary with its USB-C interfaces or cables)
Yet.
What an idiotic argument. Apple has been using USB-C since 2017, always adhering to the latest version of the standard at the time of release.* Why would they start doing weird shenanigans now?
It's not really an argument, I'm just poking fun at Apple. That and I'll never dismiss the possibility of any company, Apple or otherwise, choosing to take the wrong route in search of perceived profits - Dymo, anyone?
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsDvkduPpw4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsDvkduPpw4)
I know this sounds petty, but I lost interest after he mixed up Gigabytes and Gigabits.
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsDvkduPpw4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsDvkduPpw4)
I know this sounds petty, but I lost interest after he mixed up Gigabytes and Gigabits.
Similarly, were it not for the fact that they were "reviewing" a smartphone (a not particularly technically or academically challenging assignment, based on HOW many "reviewers" do so), it amuses me to no end that people say "Milliamps" when it's "mAh" they actually mean. Were they reviewing boats or planes - an area where the average viewer, I would think, had slightly higher intelligence and were more informed, I'd say they'd get away with it for not very long at all. Smartphone users (the public) just swallow this stuff down and are none the wiser - nor do I expect em to be - but if put yourself in a position of "reviewer", PLEASE, its ONE tiny piece of BASIC terminology - not that hard to learn...
-
Here's the final EU directive:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32022L2380&from=EN (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32022L2380&from=EN)
-
What's Apple's problem anyway, why are they playing victim?
USB-C (USB 3) handles up to 640 Mbps, Apple's (effectively USB 2) is 480 Mbps.
iPad pro already uses USB-C, USB offers greater power delivery.
The "lightning" cables (like most things Apple) are stupid prices.
Apple are and always have been about presentation rather than functionality, external design rather than internal.
-
What's Apple's problem anyway, why are they playing victim?
USB-C (USB 3) handles up to 640 Mbps, Apple's (effectively USB 2) is 480 Mbps.
iPad pro already uses USB-C, USB offers greater power delivery.
The "lightning" cables (like most things Apple) are stupid prices.
Apple are and always have been about presentation rather than functionality, external design rather than internal.
"The "lightning" cables (like most things Apple) are stupid prices." - that's your explanation right there, it's all about the money...
-
What's Apple's problem anyway, why are they playing victim?
Aaaand I can already see we’ll be dealing with a reality-avoiding Apple hater.
USB-C (USB 3) handles up to 640 Mbps, Apple's (effectively USB 2) is 480 Mbps.
You need to read up on USB-C anew.
USB-C can, but does not have to be, USB 3, and USB 3 can be up to 20Gbps. USB-C can also be USB 4 (40Gbps), Thunderbolt 3 or 4 (also 40Gbps), or just USB 2 (480Mbps).
iPad pro already uses USB-C, USB offers greater power delivery.
Correct. As an iPad Pro owner, I’d love to see iPhone move to USB-C so I can once again use the same cables for my phone, tablet, and earbuds.
The "lightning" cables (like most things Apple) are stupid prices.
Utter nonsense. Lightning cables don’t cost any more than the old Dock connector cables it replaced, nor any more than the USB-C cables that are replacing Lightning.
Apple are and always have been about presentation rather than functionality, external design rather than internal.
And there we have it, more reality-avoiding Apple hatred. The reason Apple has been so spectacularly successful is that beneath the style, there is real substance. Their products work well — really well — and that’s why people buy them. And that’s always been the reason people buy them.
-
"The "lightning" cables (like most things Apple) are stupid prices." - that's your explanation right there, it's all about the money...
Except that this assumption is simply not true. Lightning cables, whether Apple or third party, whether high quality or el cheap, cost about the same as equivalent USB-C cables.
-
"The "lightning" cables (like most things Apple) are stupid prices." - that's your explanation right there, it's all about the money...
Except that this assumption is simply not true. Lightning cables, whether Apple or third party, whether high quality or el cheap, cost about the same as equivalent USB-C cables.
The key is, who is selling them?
Third parties cannot just start selling products covered by Apple intellectual property... (in principle, they cannot sell USB things without paying their dues either).
-
They pay a licencing fee to use the Lightning crypto chip, it's about 2% of the retail price (used to be $4 so that explains the discrepancy in prices historically).
I'm not sure how much the actual chip costs, presumably they're supplied by one or more third parties.
-
They pay a licencing fee to use the Lightning crypto chip, it's about 2% of the retail price (used to be $4 so that explains the discrepancy in prices historically).
I'm not sure how much the actual chip costs, presumably they're supplied by one or more third parties.
2% of the retail price means something like 10% of the profit margin, assuming 20% margin on retail. Nice work if you can get it?
-
What's Apple's problem anyway, why are they playing victim?
Aaaand I can already see we’ll be dealing with a reality-avoiding Apple hater.
USB-C (USB 3) handles up to 640 Mbps, Apple's (effectively USB 2) is 480 Mbps.
You need to read up on USB-C anew.
USB-C can, but does not have to be, USB 3, and USB 3 can be up to 20Gbps. USB-C can also be USB 4 (40Gbps), Thunderbolt 3 or 4 (also 40Gbps), or just USB 2 (480Mbps).
iPad pro already uses USB-C, USB offers greater power delivery.
Correct. As an iPad Pro owner, I’d love to see iPhone move to USB-C so I can once again use the same cables for my phone, tablet, and earbuds.
The "lightning" cables (like most things Apple) are stupid prices.
Utter nonsense. Lightning cables don’t cost any more than the old Dock connector cables it replaced, nor any more than the USB-C cables that are replacing Lightning.
Apple are and always have been about presentation rather than functionality, external design rather than internal.
And there we have it, more reality-avoiding Apple hatred. The reason Apple has been so spectacularly successful is that beneath the style, there is real substance. Their products work well — really well — and that’s why people buy them. And that’s always been the reason people buy them.
We could argue this all day, but making assumptions about me is no substitute for facts. Even if I was a "reality avoiding Apple hater" that wouldn't invalidate my statements, even statements from a prejudiced person can be true.
For the record I don't "hate" Apple, I do however regard them as technologically not very innovative and have done for many decades. Steve Jobs was technologically vacuous, always prattling on about appearance and styling, an so on. If that stupid cable is an example of their innovation skills, then I'm afraid that I am going to be underwhelmed.
-
We could argue this all day, but making assumptions about me is no substitute for facts. Even if I was a "reality avoiding Apple hater" that wouldn't invalidate my statements, even statements from a prejudiced person can be true.
That’s true. But this isn’t such a case, since almost all of your claims are provably factually incorrect. I went through them one by one.
-
"The "lightning" cables (like most things Apple) are stupid prices." - that's your explanation right there, it's all about the money...
Except that this assumption is simply not true. Lightning cables, whether Apple or third party, whether high quality or el cheap, cost about the same as equivalent USB-C cables.
The key is, who is selling them?
How so?
As I said: in every category of cable (original, quality third party, and el-cheapo third party), Lightning cables are sold at comparable cost to USB-C.
Third parties cannot just start selling products covered by Apple intellectual property... (in principle, they cannot sell USB things without paying their dues either).
Quality cable manufacturers license them (IIRC this also means they source the Lightning plugs from Apple, which makes them available under the MFi program), as do many (but definitely not all) budget cable companies. The others simply use clone plugs and either leave off the MFi logos, or use the logos fraudulently.
But the upshot is: for any given quality level of cable, you basically have your choice of Lightning or USB-C at the same (or extremely similar) price. There’s absolutely no substance to the claims of Lightning cables having “stupid prices” compared to USB-C.
For example, Apple 1m cables cost $19, whether USB-A to Lightning, USB-C to Lightning, or USB-C to USB-C.
Anker, a top quality third party, charges $14.99 for their entry level 6’ cable, whether USB-A to Lightning or USB-C to USB-C, and $17.99 for USB-C to Lightning.
And on AliExpress, any of those cable types can be had from about $1 upwards, in whatever quality that gets you…
This is my point: Apple isn’t getting rich off of cables, at least, no more so than anyone else is.
-
What's Apple's problem anyway, why are they playing victim?
Aaaand I can already see we’ll be dealing with a reality-avoiding Apple hater.
How you interpret what I said is your concern, Apple's complaining reflects the company's concerns not customer or consumers or the environment. Their eagerness to exploit the impoverished labor markets in China is sufficient to establish that. Claiming that a single vendor with a monopoly on an interconnection technology is "good for consumers" is untrue.
USB-C (USB 3) handles up to 640 Mbps, Apple's (effectively USB 2) is 480 Mbps.
You need to read up on USB-C anew.
USB-C can, but does not have to be, USB 3, and USB 3 can be up to 20Gbps. USB-C can also be USB 4 (40Gbps), Thunderbolt 3 or 4 (also 40Gbps), or just USB 2 (480Mbps).
I'd meant to type MB/sec not Mb/sec. The point though is that based on a quantitative comparison the old "lightning" cable/connector/system is technically inferior.
iPad pro already uses USB-C, USB offers greater power delivery.
Correct. As an iPad Pro owner, I’d love to see iPhone move to USB-C so I can once again use the same cables for my phone, tablet, and earbuds.
Well thanks to the EU you won't have long to wait.
The "lightning" cables (like most things Apple) are stupid prices.
Utter nonsense. Lightning cables don’t cost any more than the old Dock connector cables it replaced, nor any more than the USB-C cables that are replacing Lightning.
A 1m long lightening/USB cable costs 19 USD on the Apple store, a 0.5m lightning to USB also costs the same. A high quality braid covered (https://www.amazon.com/JSAUX-Charger-Braided-Compatible-Samsung/dp/B086DPMFLL/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=P0QKYDQGWO88&keywords=usb%2Bc%2Bcable&qid=1670945342&sprefix=usb%2Bc%2Bcable%2Caps%2C171&sr=8-1-spons&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyV0I0Vk4yUlgwWk5OJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMjUyOTcwMTMzVUxGMTJKRlBERCZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMjc4NjM3MlUzMjY4NVdZWDVYTSZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU&th=1) 1m USB to USB-C connector costs 4.5 dollars, the price for a pair being around 9 dollars, there are a huge number of suppliers to choose from (aka "good for consumers").
The only nonsense I can see here, is the claim by Apple that paying four times more for a short cable is good for consumers.
Apple are and always have been about presentation rather than functionality, external design rather than internal.
And there we have it, more reality-avoiding Apple hatred. The reason Apple has been so spectacularly successful is that beneath the style, there is real substance. Their products work well — really well — and that’s why people buy them. And that’s always been the reason people buy them.
Even if I did "hate" Apple, what of it?
You'll need to explain what you mean wen you refer to me as "reality avoiding", I disagree with you, is that what you mean? People buy things for a host of reasons, in Apple's case presentation is a large part of their appeal and always has been. Steve Jobs is on record as emphasizing time and again how products should look over how they should perform. He was never a technology oriented individual, pioneer or innovator.
-
"The "lightning" cables (like most things Apple) are stupid prices." - that's your explanation right there, it's all about the money...
Except that this assumption is simply not true. Lightning cables, whether Apple or third party, whether high quality or el cheap, cost about the same as equivalent USB-C cables.
The key is, who is selling them?
How so?
As I said: in every category of cable (original, quality third party, and el-cheapo third party), Lightning cables are sold at comparable cost to USB-C.
May I?
Apple’s 1m USB-C to Lightning Cable, which allows faster charging for compatible iPhones and iPads, has been reduced in price. When the cable debuted, the original price was $25 for the 1m version, and $35 for the 2m version.
and
It appears that last month, Apple quietly dropped the price of the 1m USB-C to Lighting Cable by $6, going from $25 to $19. This change comes amid rumors that new iPhones will drop the USB-A-equipped Lightning to USB Cables in favor of USB-C cables that are able to facilitate faster charging.
Taken from here (https://9to5mac.com/2018/05/21/apple-reduces-usb-c-to-lightning-cable-price-amid-rumors-2018-iphones-dropping-usb-a/).
-
A 1m long lightening/USB cable costs 19 USD on the Apple store, a 0.5m lightning to USB also costs the same. A high quality braid covered (https://www.amazon.com/JSAUX-Charger-Braided-Compatible-Samsung/dp/B086DPMFLL/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=P0QKYDQGWO88&keywords=usb%2Bc%2Bcable&qid=1670945342&sprefix=usb%2Bc%2Bcable%2Caps%2C171&sr=8-1-spons&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyV0I0Vk4yUlgwWk5OJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMjUyOTcwMTMzVUxGMTJKRlBERCZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMjc4NjM3MlUzMjY4NVdZWDVYTSZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU&th=1) 1m USB to USB-C connector costs 4.5 dollars, the price for a pair being around 9 dollars, there are a huge number of suppliers to choose from (aka "good for consumers").
Made by.. wait, who are they? Shenzhen Wuyishi Technology Co.,Ltd? Will they be around next month?
Let's look at a USB-A to USB-C from a reputable name, shall we? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07213D35X (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07213D35X)
Yes, that one has all the signals present, so you don't have to play 'guess what this cable does'..
Sorry, was the 'high quality braid' an important factor? Okay: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GN0M6NE (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GN0M6NE)
-
A 1m long lightening/USB cable costs 19 USD on the Apple store, a 0.5m lightning to USB also costs the same. A high quality braid covered (https://www.amazon.com/JSAUX-Charger-Braided-Compatible-Samsung/dp/B086DPMFLL/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=P0QKYDQGWO88&keywords=usb%2Bc%2Bcable&qid=1670945342&sprefix=usb%2Bc%2Bcable%2Caps%2C171&sr=8-1-spons&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyV0I0Vk4yUlgwWk5OJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMjUyOTcwMTMzVUxGMTJKRlBERCZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMjc4NjM3MlUzMjY4NVdZWDVYTSZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU&th=1) 1m USB to USB-C connector costs 4.5 dollars, the price for a pair being around 9 dollars, there are a huge number of suppliers to choose from (aka "good for consumers").
Made by.. wait, who are they? Shenzhen Wuyishi Technology Co.,Ltd? Will they be around next month?
Let's look at a USB-A to USB-C from a reputable name, shall we? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07213D35X (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07213D35X)
Yes, that one has all the signals present, so you don't have to play 'guess what this cable does'..
Sorry, was the 'high quality braid' an important factor? Okay: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GN0M6NE (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GN0M6NE)
From Wikipedia: Anker Innovations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anker_Innovations)
Anker Innovations Co., Ltd,[a] commonly known as Anker, is a Chinese electronics manufacturer based in Changsha, Hunan, China. The company's product range includes phone chargers, power banks, earbuds, headphones, speakers, data hubs, charging cables, torches, screen protectors, etc.
But there's more:
Purchased a cable from Anker in November 2021. Requested a replacement from Anker and they are refusing to send. Now I just want a refund and I'll buy a cable from a different company that honors their warranty.
and
The company makes cables for various phones. I provided proof of purchase and showed how their cables were defective. The cables, individually, don’t last more than 30-90 days. The pins on the lighting port connector corrode or some how burn off. I provided this in photo proof and the company asked me to cut the cables in half, without written guarantee they would replace them. Looking at ******’s reviews they seem to have a track record of poor customer service and product quality. I’d like the bbb to look into if they ask every customer to do this or is this only done on a case by case basis. This is a very odd thing to ask; seeing as no other iPhone cable I’ve had to warranty asked me to further destroy them; possibly voiding any warranty due to damage caused by me rather than defect
etc, etc, etc, from here: Better Business Bureau (https://www.bbb.org/us/wa/bellevue/profile/electronics-and-technology/anker-innovations-1296-1000076367/complaints?page=2).
Note the corrosion complaint. I've seen that on cable's supplied by Apple, after some time there's a visible indication of wear, oxidation or corrosion and one can plug the device in expecting it to charge but it doesn't it just sits there until one grabs it in a hurry only to find it has no power, this is a problem with the Apple cables too, basically they're a joke.
-
Ah, a couple of bad reviews, problems with the connector type we're not discussing, and oh yes they're Chinese so let's pretend they're all the same, because casual racism is a good argument.
-
Ah, a couple of bad reviews, problems with the connector type we're not discussing, and oh yes they're Chinese so let's pretend they're all the same, because casual racism is a good argument.
Also, Anker's PowerLine II cables happen to be certified by Apple (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MFi_Program), and very well received (http://edition.cnn.com/cnn-underscored/reviews/best-lightning-cables) (CNN review of another cable in the same PowerLine II product series that Monkeh linked to).
It doesn't mean all Anker cables are excellent, it only means they definitely can make excellent cables, and that PowerLine II in particular (due to Apple's MFi certification and review success) is likely a good choice.
-
What's Apple's problem anyway, why are they playing victim?
Aaaand I can already see we’ll be dealing with a reality-avoiding Apple hater.
How you interpret what I said is your concern, Apple's complaining reflects the company's concerns not customer or consumers or the environment. Their eagerness to exploit the impoverished labor markets in China is sufficient to establish that.
And here we go again with the ridiculously biased talk. Please, name an IT company that doesn’t buy cables in China.
There is always room for improvement in working conditions, but to shit on Apple for that is the height of hypocrisy, since no other major IT company even comes close to doing what Apple does in terms of enforcement. They routinely audit their suppliers (all the way down the supply chain) and dismiss ones that remain noncompliant with Apple’s terms, which go significantly beyond what local laws require.
Claiming that a single vendor with a monopoly on an interconnection technology is "good for consumers" is untrue.
Nobody has made that claim, including Apple. (Since lightning is not a “monopoly”, in that you can easily buy non-Apple lightning cables and accessories.)
USB-C (USB 3) handles up to 640 Mbps, Apple's (effectively USB 2) is 480 Mbps.
You need to read up on USB-C anew.
USB-C can, but does not have to be, USB 3, and USB 3 can be up to 20Gbps. USB-C can also be USB 4 (40Gbps), Thunderbolt 3 or 4 (also 40Gbps), or just USB 2 (480Mbps).
I'd meant to type MB/sec not Mb/sec. The point though is that based on a quantitative comparison the old "lightning" cable/connector/system is technically inferior.
Nobody has claimed otherwise. USB-C didn’t exist when Lightning came out, and there was absolutely no reason for a phone to need USB 3.0 at that time.
Lightning was invented because the USB connectors that existed at the time did not meet the needs Apple had for the iPhone.
It’s been a full 10 years since it came out. Of course technology has moved on, DUH!
A 1m long lightening/USB cable costs 19 USD on the Apple store, a 0.5m lightning to USB also costs the same. A high quality braid covered (https://www.amazon.com/JSAUX-Charger-Braided-Compatible-Samsung/dp/B086DPMFLL/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=P0QKYDQGWO88&keywords=usb%2Bc%2Bcable&qid=1670945342&sprefix=usb%2Bc%2Bcable%2Caps%2C171&sr=8-1-spons&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyV0I0Vk4yUlgwWk5OJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMjUyOTcwMTMzVUxGMTJKRlBERCZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMjc4NjM3MlUzMjY4NVdZWDVYTSZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU&th=1) 1m USB to USB-C connector costs 4.5 dollars, the price for a pair being around 9 dollars, there are a huge number of suppliers to choose from (aka "good for consumers").
The only nonsense I can see here, is the claim by Apple that paying four times more for a short cable is good for consumers.
Irrelevant, since Apple is not the only vendor of Lightning cables. You can buy third party Lightning cables in EVERY price category from $1 garbage to $100 Monster Cable-esque nude virgins voodoo woo-woo BS.
My original point, which remains true, is that the claim that Lightning cables are “stupid expensive” is bullshit. I’ve proven it, others here have proven it.
Even if I did "hate" Apple, what of it?
Experience has taught me that Apple haters do not care about reality, and simply ignore and avoid anything that contradicts the anti-Apple narrative in their minds. Consequently, they have to employ dishonest arguments to “prove” their beliefs.
And you know what? You’ve proven me right once again. You’ve a) ignored my point, b) continue to bring apples-to-oranges comparisons that prove absolutely nothing, and c) bring in more irrelevant anti-Apple arguments (regardless of veracity) that have nothing to do with the question at hand.
Absolutely predictable, and quite maddening because your beliefs aren’t founded in facts, but in faith that Apple is evil, so facts don't sway you.
-
A 1m long lightening/USB cable costs 19 USD on the Apple store, a 0.5m lightning to USB also costs the same. A high quality braid covered (https://www.amazon.com/JSAUX-Charger-Braided-Compatible-Samsung/dp/B086DPMFLL/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=P0QKYDQGWO88&keywords=usb%2Bc%2Bcable&qid=1670945342&sprefix=usb%2Bc%2Bcable%2Caps%2C171&sr=8-1-spons&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyV0I0Vk4yUlgwWk5OJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMjUyOTcwMTMzVUxGMTJKRlBERCZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMjc4NjM3MlUzMjY4NVdZWDVYTSZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU&th=1) 1m USB to USB-C connector costs 4.5 dollars, the price for a pair being around 9 dollars, there are a huge number of suppliers to choose from (aka "good for consumers").
Made by.. wait, who are they? Shenzhen Wuyishi Technology Co.,Ltd? Will they be around next month?
Let's look at a USB-A to USB-C from a reputable name, shall we? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07213D35X (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07213D35X)
Yes, that one has all the signals present, so you don't have to play 'guess what this cable does'..
Sorry, was the 'high quality braid' an important factor? Okay: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GN0M6NE (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GN0M6NE)
From Wikipedia: Anker Innovations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anker_Innovations)
Anker Innovations Co., Ltd,[a] commonly known as Anker, is a Chinese electronics manufacturer based in Changsha, Hunan, China. The company's product range includes phone chargers, power banks, earbuds, headphones, speakers, data hubs, charging cables, torches, screen protectors, etc.
But there's more:
Purchased a cable from Anker in November 2021. Requested a replacement from Anker and they are refusing to send. Now I just want a refund and I'll buy a cable from a different company that honors their warranty.
and
The company makes cables for various phones. I provided proof of purchase and showed how their cables were defective. The cables, individually, don’t last more than 30-90 days. The pins on the lighting port connector corrode or some how burn off. I provided this in photo proof and the company asked me to cut the cables in half, without written guarantee they would replace them. Looking at ******’s reviews they seem to have a track record of poor customer service and product quality. I’d like the bbb to look into if they ask every customer to do this or is this only done on a case by case basis. This is a very odd thing to ask; seeing as no other iPhone cable I’ve had to warranty asked me to further destroy them; possibly voiding any warranty due to damage caused by me rather than defect
etc, etc, etc, from here: Better Business Bureau (https://www.bbb.org/us/wa/bellevue/profile/electronics-and-technology/anker-innovations-1296-1000076367/complaints?page=2).
Note the corrosion complaint. I've seen that on cable's supplied by Apple, after some time there's a visible indication of wear, oxidation or corrosion and one can plug the device in expecting it to charge but it doesn't it just sits there until one grabs it in a hurry only to find it has no power, this is a problem with the Apple cables too, basically they're a joke.
So what? Anker is a company with a stellar reputation. That doesn’t mean 100% of customers will be happy, since that’s literally impossible.
That first linked Anker cable has a 4.5 star rating on 5700 reviews. That’s a pretty damned good sign that the rating isn’t an aberration.
And it’s a great example that Chinese companies can make great products if they choose to.
Note the corrosion complaint. I've seen that on cable's supplied by Apple, after some time there's a visible indication of wear, oxidation or corrosion and one can plug the device in expecting it to charge but it doesn't it just sits there until one grabs it in a hurry only to find it has no power, this is a problem with the Apple cables too, basically they're a joke.
Yep, corrosion on that one pin, especially after exposure to moisture or sweat, is a known failure mode. It’s some kind of galvanic corrosion. Of course, we don’t really see if similar corrosion happens to micro-USB and USB-C plugs that are exposed to moisture, since their pins are not visible. Conversely, we also know that micro-USB and USB-C each have known failure modes of their own. That’s how engineering works, dude.
-
Oh no, the horror.
(https://i.pcmag.com/imagery/articles/00gKNGATRiXEMvIYPWqjfpE-1.fit_lim.v1667585035.jpg)
What are we gonna do? Use the SAME cable to charge your laptop and your phone?
-
But the resident expert told us they'd never do it. We must be seeing things.
-
Maybe they realized soldering unobtainium SSD chips into $̶5̶̶k̶ $8K Macbook Pros and serializing every part inside an Iphone is more profitable than selling cables?
-
Yep, the EU won...
iPhone 15: Apple forced to ditch lightning charger
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-66778528 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-66778528)
Presumably it won't be worth their while creating a lightning connector version for other markets so it will probably kill it.
[OT warning]
In other news (I just spotted it while digging out yesterday's story) France has halted iPhone 12 sales today over excessive emissions, with a potential forced recall if they can't fix it (presumably within the limits of s/w). I guess the rest of the EU will probably follow suit. Sounds expensive for a 3 year old device... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-66795168 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-66795168)
[/OT]
-
But the resident expert told us they'd never do it. We must be seeing things.
It's clearly photoshop.
And simultaneously it's an evil plot to reduce the number of chargers that are sold.
-
Not sure what all the fuss is about with Apple and USB-C. They've had USB-C on nearly everything other than the iPhone and the shit iPads for years. They even contributed to the USB-C standards in the first place. My Apple monitor plugs into my MacBook with USB-C. It's got USB-C holes all over it. Same with the iPad. This was coming, EU or not. Dunno why it took so long but it wasn't because they wanted to sell cables and accessories because 99% of people just buy the shit ones from wherever so they're not exactly getting huge revenue out of it and accessories. This wasn't really a win as such just a boring inevitability. One I'm glad of but you know, it's well, boring. Lots of people like to get upset about things though.
Ironically now I've got a large box of perfectly good lightning cables which will inevitably end up in the bin. Any thoughts on that?
-
Any thoughts on that?
They would end up in a bin sooner or later no matter what. But now you will not have new cables that would have to go to the bin.
Practically, it probably does not matter, since I expect majority of people to have more cables than devices anyway.
It is good to have a universal standard.
-
It is good to have a universal standard.
It is indeed. I'm not convinced it's that universal or reliable standard though!
Case in point, I have £4000 worth of Dell Precision 7670 here that won't charge off USB-C at all in any capacity with any cable I have tried including proper expensive 100W charging cables. Charging it off a Dell dock works sometimes, at the cost of blowing up a £350 dock every 3 months. And it has three USB-C ports with different capabilities so you need to know and understand what they are before you choose what to plug your stuff into! Same is true with the Pixel 6A I was using. Sometimes it charges, sometimes it doesn't. Then there's the Dell P2423DE monitor which is, depending on the weather, sometimes a monitor and sometimes a USB hub depending on how many times you replug the USB-C feed. Also it's a bit of a gamble as to what transfer speed you're getting depending on a combination of the cable, vendors, software, planetary alignment etc. I'm not even going to start on the 300 seat office hotdesking with USB-C shit show we have at work...
The end game is if you buy all your devices from one vendor and use their cables, everything works as intended. Apple. Hmm.
Not very universal!
Of course the outcome here will be to introduce something called USB-D at some point in the future which will replace this fucked up mess with another one designed by committee. I await throwing away all our standardised cables again in the future.
There were no winners.
Edit: worth noting this is a better situation than we were in but it's still a shit show! :-DD
-
Ironically now I've got a large box of perfectly good lightning cables which will inevitably end up in the bin. Any thoughts on that?
Yeah, that's "collateral damage" as they say. :-DD
-
Ironically now I've got a large box of perfectly good lightning cables which will inevitably end up in the bin. Any thoughts on that?
Use it to charge your perfectly good phone? :-// It's not like your phone changed it's port overnight.
-
Ironically now I've got a large box of perfectly good lightning cables which will inevitably end up in the bin. Any thoughts on that?
Use it to charge your perfectly good phone? :-// It's not like your phone changed it's port overnight.
Well it did because I ordered an iPhone 15 pro yesterday :-DD
-
Ironically now I've got a large box of perfectly good lightning cables which will inevitably end up in the bin. Any thoughts on that?
Buy some Apple(TM) USB-C to Lightning adapters. Only USD 29 a piece! :-DD
-
I'm late on this topic, + the time to read all the previous pages :-DD
I do agree USB-C *may* be a solution to harmonize sockets on portable devices, but there are many issues and questions left in my opinion.
- All HAM operators in the VHF/UHF already noticed that most if not all manufacturers (Yaesu, Icom, Baofeng etc.) have proprietary charging and data cables on most of their portable and handheld radios. It may change in the near future but in my case I'm stuck with different sockets, for example in my Icom, Yaesu and Elecraft devices the RS232-USB cable is in the form of a 3.5mm stereo or trrs jack. Not really standardized, and definitely not USB-C. I hope it will change.
- Putting USB-C sockets on mobiles devices doesn't solve the "hub" issue, when we want to charge/connect multiple devices. There is no daisy-chaining possible, and I assume there are not any cheap hubs with multiple USB-C outputs. I said USB-C, not Thunderbolt (which is a sophisticated but very expensive solution). So users are left with USB-C to USB-A cables as the only solution to plug/charge several devices on a laptop, unless this laptop has several USB-C outputs which is uncommon (except on expensive models, and in that case it's Thunderbolt ports), or if they buy expensive Thunderbolt or dedicated docking stations (In my case I have a Surface Laptop Go, and had to buy the $300 Microsoft docking "brick" with its proprietary Microsoft Surface cable, to add the 3 more USB-C ports on my laptop). Definitely not cheap nor convenient. I had a (quick) look at the Thunderbolt and USB characteristics, and it seems that only Thunderbolt is capable of daisy-chaining, and offering multiple USB-C outputs, do correct me if I'm wrong.
- Another thought I have about those USB-C connectors is their use in industrial environments. I'm used to USB-B connectors for my lab devices (Siglent, etc) but also other "heavy duty" gear because it's more prone to be in environments with risk of damage. I just wish that even if USB-C is enforced for small devices, USB-B or an equivalent of a rugged USB-C will continue to be available for those devices. The Wikipedia overview of USB connectors seem to demonstrate there is nothing planned other than the small USB-C connector for rugged environments. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#Connector_type_quick_reference (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#Connector_type_quick_reference). I simply can't imagine industrial equipment in hospitals, factories, aircrafts etc. using fragile and prone to accidental disconnection USB-C sockets.
An analogy is the HDMI sockets are "consumer grade" and fragile, but in the professional environment devices are fitted with SDI BNC sockets, which are much more reliable, solid, allow longer lengths of cables, are locked (BNC) to prevent accidental disconnection, etc.
As an individual and hobbyist, I can't change anything on this, and will passively overlook the manufacturers endorse USB-C for everything, but I anticipate those issues mentioned above in the future !
-
Well it did because I ordered an iPhone 15 pro yesterday :-DD
And you will get a USB cable with the phone and likely no charger.
So you can use the new USB cable to connect your old charger to your new phone.
I am still using a charger from a old Android Phone from back before USB-C was invented, and have no problems charging my now USB-C phone on it because the new phone came with a USB-A to USB-C cable.
So nothing changes really. Only that Apple can no longer charge royalties for the next charging cable you will buy once the included charging cable falls apart(at least the older apple charging cables tended to fall apart)
-
Well it did because I ordered an iPhone 15 pro yesterday :-DD
And you will get a USB cable with the phone and likely no charger.
So you can use the new USB cable to connect your old charger to your new phone.
I am still using a charger from a old Android Phone from back before USB-C was invented, and have no problems charging my now USB-C phone on it because the new phone came with a USB-A to USB-C cable.
So nothing changes really. Only that Apple can no longer charge royalties for the next charging cable you will buy once the included charging cable falls apart(at least the older apple charging cables tended to fall apart)
That is correct. Nothing changes. Until there is USB-D!
Worth noting that they don't fall apart of you don't sit there several hours a day with the cable wedged into your stomach because you are too incompetent to charge it at the right time. I still have perfect cables from as far back as 2015!
-
Apple USB-C devices typically ship with USB-C to USB-C cables, not to USB-A cables. At least that's been my experience with my MacBooks and iPad Pro. So old USB-A chargers won't necessarily work.
That said, I don't use those little Apple USB-A block chargers and haven't in years. All of my chargers have USB-C ports on them now, and all my current Lightning cables are USB-C on the charger end.
So I welcome the move to USB-C, it's long overdue. I think Apple would have got there on their own eventually, but obviously they wanted to go on their own terms -- they were milking their lightning cable investment for all they could and I'm sure didn't like being ORDERED to go there. So thanks EU for prompting them along. :)
I'm also lining up to pre-order my iPhone 15 Pro Max tomorrow morning.
Worth noting that they don't fall apart of you don't sit there several hours a day with the cable wedged into your stomach because you are too incompetent to charge it at the right time. I still have perfect cables from as far back as 2015!
Agreed. I tend to baby my gear. I have Apple cables going back to the old 30-pin cables and probably dozens of Lightening cables by now that look brand new over a decade later.
My wife/kids/grandkids though? They can go through cables faster than you can imagine. I keep reminding them, for example, not to yank out the cables by the cable itself -- grab the connector -- but they don't listen. So I buy basically cheap disposable cables for them. For me, the OEM Apple cables work perfectly fine.
-
The most baffling thing to me is that Apple ship the iPhone 15 in 2023 with USB 2.0. We have a few Samsung Galaxy S22 phones (pretty much direct Android competitors to iPhone 14) at work for testing, and these are all USB 3.x.
-
Does the legislation require using the PD standard and interoperability?
USB-C and the PD standard allow for crypto graphically secure authentication to enforce vendor lock-in of the charger. When USB-C first came out, ASICs for implementing it advertised this as a feature.
Personally I have found USB-C to be less rugged than USB-A, and I prefer the later when there is room. I have destroyed several USB-C connectors already. The plugs bend and the sockets sheer their soldered connections.
-
PD interoperability is "variable". If you stick to major brand cables, chargers it mostly works. I stick to Apple and Anker stuff usually and that's fairly robust and reliable.
As for the ruggedness, it's terrible and the failure modes are horrible and half the vendors do not consider connector replacement in the design cycle of their products. For example the latest T14 series of thinkpads, the USB-C connectors are directly soldered to the motherboard. One cable trip and it'll tear the connector shell off the board and take the traces with it. That's nearly impossible to repair effectively so you end up with a USB-C connector that only works one way round or paying to replace the board. Phone vendors, computer vendors all do this. Apart from Apple, where all the connectors are on daughter boards. You get what you pay for!
Lightning was a far better technology here. The standard failure mode was the connector blade would break off inside the phone but could be recovered easily.
-
The most baffling thing to me is that Apple ship the iPhone 15 in 2023 with USB 2.0. We have a few Samsung Galaxy S22 phones (pretty much direct Android competitors to iPhone 14) at work for testing, and these are all USB 3.x.
What is the use case of USB 3.x speed on a Smartphone?
-
The most baffling thing to me is that Apple ship the iPhone 15 in 2023 with USB 2.0. We have a few Samsung Galaxy S22 phones (pretty much direct Android competitors to iPhone 14) at work for testing, and these are all USB 3.x.
What is the use case of USB 3.x speed on a Smartphone?
Pulling large quantities of photos and videos off quickly usually.
Personally I don't care about this in 2023.
-
The most baffling thing to me is that Apple ship the iPhone 15 in 2023 with USB 2.0. We have a few Samsung Galaxy S22 phones (pretty much direct Android competitors to iPhone 14) at work for testing, and these are all USB 3.x.
What is the use case of USB 3.x speed on a Smartphone?
Putting media on/off the phone because have media that you own rather than a parade of streaming services that only have what they have till their license expires. Or want to have for offline usage where mobile service may not be freely available. I.e. load song and movie library onto phone before a flight, to not have to rely on questionable speed satellite internet if that airline isn't using starlink.
-
The most baffling thing to me is that Apple ship the iPhone 15 in 2023 with USB 2.0. We have a few Samsung Galaxy S22 phones (pretty much direct Android competitors to iPhone 14) at work for testing, and these are all USB 3.x.
What is the use case of USB 3.x speed on a Smartphone?
Putting media on/off the phone because have media that you own rather than a parade of streaming services that only have what they have till their license expires. Or want to have for offline usage where mobile service may not be freely available. I.e. load song and movie library onto phone before a flight, to not have to rely on questionable speed satellite internet if that airline isn't using starlink.
You can do that via VLC over WiFi. That's usually what I do. But most of the streaming services allow you to take offline cache.
TBF I don't have much of a need to move media on and off. It just happens.
-
USB 3.0 is not that big of a deal since for transfering files 480Mbit is still decent. But yeah with phones pushing performance in all places, it seams fitting to have 3.x
For example Apples lightning to HDMI adspters encode video to H264 or similar, send it over USB 2.0 then have a SOC from an older iPhone in the dongle to play back the streaming video out to HDMI. No need for any of that in USB-C
Oh and personaly i havent had Lightning cables break so much, but i seen others break them a lot.
-
USB 3.0 is not that big of a deal since for transfering files 480Mbit is still decent. But yeah with phones pushing performance in all places, it seams fitting to have 3.x
For example Apples lightning to HDMI adspters encode video to H264 or similar, send it over USB 2.0 then have a SOC from an older iPhone in the dongle to play back the streaming video out to HDMI. No need for any of that in USB-C
Oh and personaly i havent had Lightning cables break so much, but i seen others break them a lot.
Well, the point is, they even have it connected in the USB port and the SOC and disabling it because "buy the bigger one if you need this". The phone has Displayport output, which is using the high speed TX-RX pairs. So it's just the usual middle finger from apple.
-
There was also the hilarious claim from the Australian prime minister:
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2140747-laws-of-mathematics-dont-apply-here-says-australian-pm/ (https://www.newscientist.com/article/2140747-laws-of-mathematics-dont-apply-here-says-australian-pm/)
They ware pushing for companies running chat applications with end to end encryption to have to hand over chat logs to the authorities. Even after being explained to him why doing this is not technologically possible he said they should do it anyway. Since after all: "The laws of mathematics are very commendable, but the only law that applies in Australia is the law of Australia"
Would this mean that the Universal Gravitational Law doesn’t apply either to Australia?
Boy, I have to experience that myself.
-
The most baffling thing to me is that Apple ship the iPhone 15 in 2023 with USB 2.0. We have a few Samsung Galaxy S22 phones (pretty much direct Android competitors to iPhone 14) at work for testing, and these are all USB 3.x.
What is the use case of USB 3.x speed on a Smartphone?
The iPhone is capable of 4K60 recording. That's a lot of data to transfer off if you use USB 2.0. Most USB2.0 devices max out somewhere around 250-300Mbit/s real world transfer rates once overheads are included, whereas USB3.0 usually hits the flash memory read limit first.
Also, with USB-C there are now USB3 accessories available, like an external flash drive, that would benefit from faster transfer speeds.
If you fill up the 128GB onboard storage, USB2.0 would take over an hour to transfer. If we assume the internal flash can be read around 100MB/s (it's likely to be even faster), USB3 shortens that to a third.
Edited: to correct silly error.
-
The most baffling thing to me is that Apple ship the iPhone 15 in 2023 with USB 2.0. We have a few Samsung Galaxy S22 phones (pretty much direct Android competitors to iPhone 14) at work for testing, and these are all USB 3.x.
iPhone 15 Pro has USB 3. It's typical Apple to only include the more significant/newest features in the Pro line upon release, then the next year it will likely be included in the base line. I would expect most people who are serious about things like 4k60 streaming would be opting for the Pro models anyway.
(https://i.imgur.com/3CbFQ8U.png)
That said, I rarely use a USB connection to transfer anything from my phone, as I'm all-in with cloud services, so it's only a "meh" upgrade for me.
-
The most baffling thing to me is that Apple ship the iPhone 15 in 2023 with USB 2.0. We have a few Samsung Galaxy S22 phones (pretty much direct Android competitors to iPhone 14) at work for testing, and these are all USB 3.x.
iPhone 15 Pro has USB 3. It's typical Apple to only include the more significant/newest features in the Pro line upon release, then the next year it will likely be included in the base line. I would expect most people who are serious about things like 4k60 streaming would be opting for the Pro models anyway.
(https://i.imgur.com/3CbFQ8U.png)
That said, I rarely use a USB connection to transfer anything from my phone, as I'm all-in with cloud services, so it's only a "meh" upgrade for me.
Indeed, it's very Apple to do something like this, but for an $800+ smartphone it's quite a silly limitation IMO... given almost all of the competition does have USB3.0 and it's just a case of turning it on in software. Either way I don't care, I'm not buying an iPhone 15 any time soon. It's essentially the same phone as the 13 and 14 besides a few cosmetic and performance improvements. There's nothing game changing from Apple any more. I think the last game changing feature was Face ID and Touch ID before that.
-
The non-pro version seems to be based on a last generation SoC (A16) which may not support USB3.
-
...so it's only a "meh" upgrade for me.
I should clarify that I meant USB 3 was only a "meh" upgrade for me. As for the iPhone 15 itself, I'm definitely upgrading my 12 Pro Max to the 15 Pro Max (I completed my pre-order this morning). I normally upgrade every 2 years (every other generation) but was holding out for USB-C. I was disappointed when it didn't come with the 14, and decided to wait another year.
The non-pro version seems to be based on a last generation SoC (A16) which may not support USB3.
Yes, the non-Pro line is based on the A16 and I was thinking that may well be the reason.
-
The non-pro version seems to be based on a last generation SoC (A16) which may not support USB3.
The iPad Pro 2018 had USB 3.0 on a type C connector. It had an A12 chip. It's possible that Apple deleted this function from later SoC, but given the A16 does support DisplayPort 4K HDR over USB (as another poster points out) it at least has the phy blocks to do USB3 signalling... so IMO it's probably a software lockout or possibly an eFuse blown on the die.
-
AFAIK DP alternate mode does require a USB PD phy for negotiation but no SuperSpeed phy. The USB part is really just a fancy mux.
EDIT: You also need at least USB LS on D+/D- as a fallback (billboard device) to be compliant but I guess it would technically work without even this.
-
Just to butt in, anyone using the a lovely Android and who can't be faffed with cables could do worse than install WiFi File Transfer (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.smarterdroid.wififiletransfer&hl=en_GB&gl=US) from the Play store. Super easy and quick just point a browser at your phone and do the biz like that.
-
Just to butt in, anyone using the a lovely Android and who can't be faffed with cables could do worse than install WiFi File Transfer (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.smarterdroid.wififiletransfer&hl=en_GB&gl=US) from the Play store. Super easy and quick just point a browser at your phone and do the biz like that.
I guess I should point out that as a long-time iPhone user, when I *do* need to do some local transfer (vs cloud), I typically do so over Wifi. I bought iMazing which is far more useful than iTunes for things like that. Between using iMazing to backup or transfer media, and using Calibre Companion over WiFi to transfer eBooks, I rarely have a need for USB transfer.
-
Just to butt in, anyone using the a lovely Android and who can't be faffed with cables could do worse than install WiFi File Transfer (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.smarterdroid.wififiletransfer&hl=en_GB&gl=US) from the Play store. Super easy and quick just point a browser at your phone and do the biz like that.
I guess I should point out that as a long-time iPhone user, when I *do* need to do some local transfer (vs cloud), I typically do so over Wifi. I bought iMazing which is far more useful than iTunes for things like that. Between using iMazing to backup or transfer media, and using Calibre Companion over WiFi to transfer eBooks, I rarely have a need for USB transfer.
Even my iPhone XR from 2018 can do 500Mbit/s over 802.11ac Wi-Fi, maxing out my home broadband connection, despite the router being about 10m away from my phone. I would guess the newer generations can use even faster link rates, so theoretically you could outperform the USB2 interface using a direct Wi-Fi link.
Kinda wild what modern RF tech can do.
-
Exactly, I have Wifi 6 throughout the house and recent iPhones (since at least my current 12 model) are as fast as a wired connection (well, not my 10G wired stuff, but everything else).
Which is why I'm ambivalent about USB 3 support, but I am excited about USB-C. My iPad Pro, MacBooks, and most every other recent USB device is USB-C. Only my iPhones and AirPods Pro are not. Speaking of the latter, I'm hoping they'll offer the USB-C AirPods Pro case by itself, since mine are gen 2 and not even a year old. That or I'll just start wirelessly charging them. But I have a nice little bedside charging stand that charges my iPhone, Apple Watch, and AirPods simultaneously but depends on a Lightning interface for the AirPods. Maybe I'll get an adapter.
-
The USB-C airpods Pro appear to be a different and incompatible version to the Lightning ones. So not case.
-
The USB-C airpods Pro appear to be a different and incompatible version to the Lightning ones. So not case.
My initial understanding was the AirPods themselves were unchanged from the Pro 2 and only the case was different. In fact Apple announced that the new features for this new set would also be applied to existing Pro 2’s through a firmware update on release.
I have since read that they improved the IP rating for dust ingress and they will offer lossless audio for Apple Vision, but that would seem to have no bearing on the case itself. AFAIK the only interface between case and AirPods is the charging interface which I’d be surprised if it changed.
At any rate, knowing Apple they wouldn’t offer a case-only upgrade. However it will be interesting to find out if the case is physically compatible with existing Pro 2’s. Then be on the lookout for eBay sales of USB-C cases from users who broke or lost their AirPods.