Author Topic: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices  (Read 50838 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline madires

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7695
  • Country: de
  • A qualified hobbyist ;)
Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #300 on: June 25, 2022, 03:00:36 pm »
Not everyone agrees with that ideology, but I honestly don't see how this particular situation of multiple charging ports is improved in more than a trivial way at the expense of a free market. I mean, I have thought hard about it, and read the first few pages of this thread to understand the viewpoints of others, but I honesty can't think of a significant real world advantage to the regulation.

Besides the goal to reduce e-junk there is a very practcal aspect for users:
  Bob: Oops, I left my charger at home. Can I borrow yours?
  Alice: Sure!
This wouldn't work without a standard charging port (unless both have the same device/brand). Or take my father for example. He loves to plug in the next best charger which has a matching plug. Ever tried to charge a three cell Li-Ion battery with 40V? IMHO, it would a good idea to also have a standard charging port with a protocol similar to USB PD for high power battery packs, like for power tools. Two standard chargers (one as spare or for a second battery) instead of 10 different chargers, some with the same connectors, would save money, save real estate on the bench, save ressources (production) and reduce e-junk.
 

Offline KaneTW

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 805
  • Country: de
Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #301 on: June 25, 2022, 03:01:35 pm »
Looking forward to:
1. Increasing the BOM cost of my device if I draw more than 15W
2. Having to wait a year for USB-PD parts during this or the next supply shortage
3. Noncompliant USB-PD sinks that sink 5V/3A all the time without negotiation
4. Dealing with blown up ICs because USB-C ports are prone to shorting VBUS to data lines when removing them, and not everyone puts in port protection
5. Being forced to use USB-C ports in a portable rugged device (nb: didn't check if the standard applies to them) and getting dirt/liquid stuck in them

etc, etc.
 
The following users thanked this post: Tomorokoshi

Offline PlainName

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6796
  • Country: va
Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #302 on: June 25, 2022, 05:10:24 pm »
Duh! I'm thinking of the A  :palm:

There must be some reason though. Even fairly recent Garmins use the mini over micro.

I just got a brand new Garmin and was surprised to find Mini USB still alive and well....

I'm not sure "alive and well" is what it is, it is discouraged but still allowed by USB-IF

I suspect Garmin stick to it because there is a crapton of old holders out there that have a mini-B charging cable

Maybe, yes. But mini-B is a lot easier to plug in than micro-B. Sometimes I have to invert the micro-B just to show the damn device I'm doing it wrong and then put it back the right way to get it to go in. It's perverse. With mini-B they just slide in first time.

But the whole question of USB as sole power on satnavs and dashcams is a puzzle. Asking for 12V up the jacksie, that one. I don't think it's so they can be plugged into a PC as well because using the same connector for that it has to figure out if there's a PC or car connected. With a 12V input for the car and USB for the PC there's no problem.
 

Offline SilverSolder

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6126
  • Country: 00
Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #303 on: June 25, 2022, 05:20:05 pm »
[...] Sometimes I have to invert the micro-B just to show the damn device I'm doing it wrong and then put it back the right way to get it to go in. It's perverse. [...]

Hahaha yes, I see the same behaviour.  It's as if you have to trick it into working. ..     pretty remarkable design, really, given its simplicity!  :D
 

Offline tooki

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11332
  • Country: ch
Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #304 on: June 25, 2022, 06:40:11 pm »
Maybe, yes. But mini-B is a lot easier to plug in than micro-B. Sometimes I have to invert the micro-B just to show the damn device I'm doing it wrong and then put it back the right way to get it to go in. It's perverse. With mini-B they just slide in first time.
Micro-B and standard A both have that issue. Even Intel, the inventor of USB, has made fun of that:  ;D





P.S. We can thank Apple for USB-C being reversible: they pushed for that feature at the USB-IF.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2022, 06:42:28 pm by tooki »
 
The following users thanked this post: rsjsouza, SilverSolder

Online Monkeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7990
  • Country: gb
Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #305 on: June 25, 2022, 07:48:57 pm »
But the whole question of USB as sole power on satnavs and dashcams is a puzzle. Asking for 12V up the jacksie, that one.

Funny you should mention that. My brother in law made that mistake - chopped off the 'accessory' (cigarette lighter..) plug and hard wired his dashcam. It didn't survive the experience. One switching regulator, two LDOs, and a BGA DDR2 IC later (that one was fun), it lived again. Good practice.
 

Offline eugene

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 493
  • Country: us
Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #306 on: June 26, 2022, 06:05:23 pm »
If there's a desire to have a common power port then a circular barrel jack is far superior to any USB connector. Impossible to put in upside down, rugged, durable, lasts virtually forever. If you want a standard, then just pick one size.

I understand that it wouldn't allow negotiating for different standard voltages, but if a third terminal is available for analog feedback, then the supply could provide any DC voltage over some range.

But all of that is moot because whatever the law says, it's really about getting Apple to replace their proprietary connector with USB C. The goal is to achieve that by any means necessary.
90% of quoted statistics are fictional
 

Offline Kyle_from_somewhere

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • !
  • Posts: 59
  • Country: nl
Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #307 on: June 26, 2022, 06:42:15 pm »
How do you put USB-C in upside down?
 

Offline madires

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7695
  • Country: de
  • A qualified hobbyist ;)
Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #308 on: June 26, 2022, 06:56:08 pm »
But all of that is moot because whatever the law says, it's really about getting Apple to replace their proprietary connector with USB C. The goal is to achieve that by any means necessary.

That's a silly preconception as the new standard charging port isn't limited to mobile phones.
 
The following users thanked this post: Someone

Offline Tomorokoshi

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1212
  • Country: us
Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #309 on: June 26, 2022, 07:04:00 pm »
Ok, here is a task for you all.

Look at a few of the larger power supplies you have. Count the number of approvals marks on them. I lost track at 25 on my latest supply. Everyone and their cat has an approvals requirement of some type. The vast majority of these are safety and EMC approvals. There are also environmental requirements for RoHS, etc. However, there are not any applicable approvals when it comes to specific components.

Now consider that the EU is requiring a specific type of connector. This has nothing to do with safety, EMC, RoHS, etc. The claim that it's reducing electronic waste by narrowing down to a single connector is without merit. There are other problems that are much worse.

So if the EU can specify USB-C, what is to prevent China from specifying some other connector? The USA from specifying yet another? For al global product all three would need to be included. All for the same specious claim. This is the key distinction. Safety, EMC, and RoHS leave open any realization within the requirements of the standards. This requirement for USB-C is an entirely new avenue.
 

Offline Bud

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6877
  • Country: ca
Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #310 on: June 26, 2022, 07:51:10 pm »
How do you put USB-C in upside down?
You are not going to believe but this does happen.
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline Kyle_from_somewhere

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • !
  • Posts: 59
  • Country: nl
Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #311 on: June 26, 2022, 08:43:30 pm »
So if the EU can specify USB-C, what is to prevent China from specifying some other connector? The USA from specifying yet another?

There's nothing to prevent most things. There doesn't need to be, because of newton's first: shit doesn't move until you push it.

This requirement for USB-C is an entirely new avenue.

No it's not. regulations have mandated interoperability standards since forever. I would like to thank the totalitarian dictatorship of 1980s france for mandating that my television has a scart socket - it's a very useful thing to have.
 

Offline eugene

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 493
  • Country: us
Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #312 on: June 26, 2022, 08:53:31 pm »
But all of that is moot because whatever the law says, it's really about getting Apple to replace their proprietary connector with USB C. The goal is to achieve that by any means necessary.

That's a silly preconception as the new standard charging port isn't limited to mobile phones.

Apparently you missed the part that says "whatever the law says."

Imagine a poll with two multiple choice questions:

1. Do think the law is a good idea?
  a. yes
  b. no
  c. don't care

2. Do you own an iPhone?
  a. yes
  b. no
  c. what's an iPhone

Obviously I can't prove it without actually putting the poll to a large and appropriate sample of people, but my belief is that there would be a very large correlation between the people that answered a to the first question and the people that answered a to the second question.

Whatever may or may not be written into the law today, I believe that the initial motivation for it was entirely, 100% due to the proprietary connector on iPhones. Moreover, the wide support that the law has received from the public comes mostly (but not entirely) from users of iPhones. Put another way, if Apple was already putting USB C connectors on their phones then nobody would have had any interest in proposing the law in the first place. Whatever verbiage it happens to contain today is a poor indicator of the original motivation or the public support for it.

As I said, I can't prove it, but I do believe it.
90% of quoted statistics are fictional
 

Offline Zero999

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 19345
  • Country: gb
  • 0999
Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #313 on: June 26, 2022, 09:49:16 pm »
I own an iPhone and whilst I would rather it have a standard USB connector, I don't care about the law. I'm no Apply fanboy. My phone is a hand me down. There's no point in trying to debate anything Apple with an Apple fanboy.
 

Offline tooki

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11332
  • Country: ch
Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #314 on: June 26, 2022, 10:16:20 pm »
If there's a desire to have a common power port then a circular barrel jack is far superior to any USB connector. Impossible to put in upside down, rugged, durable, lasts virtually forever. If you want a standard, then just pick one size.

[I understand that it wouldn't allow negotiating for different standard voltages, but if a third terminal is available for analog feedback, then the supply could provide any DC voltage over some range./b]
That objection doesn’t make any sense. Analog feedback makes no sense at all, and a third wire could easily carry handshaking to negotiate a voltage, just like USB-PD. I think some laptops do that already. (For sure, I know many use a third wire to identify charger types, e.g. genuine or third party, wattage, etc.)
 

Offline PlainName

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6796
  • Country: va
Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #315 on: June 26, 2022, 10:36:55 pm »
Quote
Moreover, the wide support that the law has received from the public comes mostly (but not entirely) from users of iPhones.

Why would iPhone users want USB-C support? That kind of implies they think the grass is greener over in USB land but my superficial stereotype of an Apple user is that they think the grass is much better where they are.
 

Offline tooki

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11332
  • Country: ch
Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #316 on: June 27, 2022, 01:23:53 am »
Quote
Moreover, the wide support that the law has received from the public comes mostly (but not entirely) from users of iPhones.

Why would iPhone users want USB-C support? That kind of implies they think the grass is greener over in USB land but my superficial stereotype of an Apple user is that they think the grass is much better where they are.
For me, the advantage would be that everything else is going that way: my iPad Pro is already USB-C, as is my Windows notebook, external SSD, rechargeable mouse, good webcam, power bank, etc.

(With that said, I agree that most iPhone users simply do not care either way.)
 

Offline SilverSolder

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6126
  • Country: 00
Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #317 on: June 27, 2022, 02:15:00 am »
If there's a desire to have a common power port then a circular barrel jack is far superior to any USB connector. Impossible to put in upside down, rugged, durable, lasts virtually forever. If you want a standard, then just pick one size.

[I understand that it wouldn't allow negotiating for different standard voltages, but if a third terminal is available for analog feedback, then the supply could provide any DC voltage over some range./b]
That objection doesn’t make any sense. Analog feedback makes no sense at all, and a third wire could easily carry handshaking to negotiate a voltage, just like USB-PD. I think some laptops do that already. (For sure, I know many use a third wire to identify charger types, e.g. genuine or third party, wattage, etc.)

Barrel jacks are very rugged, I have a couple of older Dell laptops still going strong after 10 years, lol.   I doubt that a USB-C jack would have lasted this long.
 

Offline tooki

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11332
  • Country: ch
Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #318 on: June 27, 2022, 06:01:33 am »
I think that depends entirely on the mechanical design (e.g. does the housing reinforce the jack, how is it mounted to the PCB, etc). Because many a laptop has died because of a failed barrel jack.
 

Offline langwadt

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4391
  • Country: dk
Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #319 on: June 27, 2022, 06:22:18 am »
Quote
Moreover, the wide support that the law has received from the public comes mostly (but not entirely) from users of iPhones.

Why would iPhone users want USB-C support? That kind of implies they think the grass is greener over in USB land but my superficial stereotype of an Apple user is that they think the grass is much better where they are.

USB-C cables are used for everything else and the Apple connector is USB2 which is slow for modern devices with multi-mega-pixel cameras
 

Online Berni

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4922
  • Country: si
Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #320 on: June 27, 2022, 06:36:10 am »
Quote
Moreover, the wide support that the law has received from the public comes mostly (but not entirely) from users of iPhones.

Why would iPhone users want USB-C support? That kind of implies they think the grass is greener over in USB land but my superficial stereotype of an Apple user is that they think the grass is much better where they are.

Well if there iPhone had a USB-C port then they could charge it with the same charger cable that they use to change the iPad or MacBook Air (Those are USB-C not Lightning). They could even use the same USB-C to USB-C cable hanging off the charger to charge there iPhone from a MacBook. But that would make way too much sense, just like letting you store files wherever you want in the filesystem.

That objection doesn’t make any sense. Analog feedback makes no sense at all, and a third wire could easily carry handshaking to negotiate a voltage, just like USB-PD. I think some laptops do that already. (For sure, I know many use a third wire to identify charger types, e.g. genuine or third party, wattage, etc.)

Yep you would never want a analog feedback because if anything goes wrong with that feedback line (bad contact, short etc..) the output voltage might just fly off towards the max output voltage and kill the device.

This is easily solved by speaking some digital protocol over the wire, once it becomes a standard the semiconductor manufacturers quickly make cheep tiny single chip solutions to do this negotiation (because they know the market for this is large). So it does not add that much cost to the device and there is no licensing fee to pay for the standard. This also allows to negotiate other things than voltage, like the max current/wattage. It is not practical to make every charger output 5A at all its supported voltages. A tiny compact charger might do 5A at 5V but drop down to 2A at 20V.

I think that depends entirely on the mechanical design (e.g. does the housing reinforce the jack, how is it mounted to the PCB, etc). Because many a laptop has died because of a failed barrel jack.
Indeed i have repaired a fair few broken barrel jacks.

Not that a barrel jack would help with standardizing when every frigin manufacturer uses a different barrel jack from the massive zoo of jacks. I keep a whole bag of barrel jack adapters if all shapes and sizes for when i want to power a barrel jack device from my lab PSU.

But if you break a USB cable you can just take another one from your box of miscalanius cables you collect over the years.
 

Offline Zero999

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 19345
  • Country: gb
  • 0999
Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #321 on: June 27, 2022, 06:54:03 am »
Yep you would never want a analog feedback because if anything goes wrong with that feedback line (bad contact, short etc..) the output voltage might just fly off towards the max output voltage and kill the device.
That can be overcome with good design. If the analogue feedback inputs are biased to a slightly higher voltage, with high value resistors, the output voltage will drop to zero, if the feedback is disconnected.

Quote
I think that depends entirely on the mechanical design (e.g. does the housing reinforce the jack, how is it mounted to the PCB, etc). Because many a laptop has died because of a failed barrel jack.
Indeed i have repaired a fair few broken barrel jacks.

Not that a barrel jack would help with standardizing when every frigin manufacturer uses a different barrel jack from the massive zoo of jacks. I keep a whole bag of barrel jack adapters if all shapes and sizes for when i want to power a barrel jack device from my lab PSU.

But if you break a USB cable you can just take another one from your box of miscalanius cables you collect over the years.
The main issue I have with barrel connectors is the voltages aren't standardised. It's possible to plug a 12V power supply into a 5V device and fry it.
 

Offline tooki

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11332
  • Country: ch
Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #322 on: June 27, 2022, 07:53:41 am »
Quote
Moreover, the wide support that the law has received from the public comes mostly (but not entirely) from users of iPhones.

Why would iPhone users want USB-C support? That kind of implies they think the grass is greener over in USB land but my superficial stereotype of an Apple user is that they think the grass is much better where they are.

USB-C cables are used for everything else and the Apple connector is USB2 which is slow for modern devices with multi-mega-pixel cameras
That maybe would have mattered in the past, but wired syncing has almost entirely gone the way of the dodo. (In addition to iCloud, which works very well, iPhones have supported local syncing to your computer via Wi-Fi for a long time now.)
 

Offline PlainName

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6796
  • Country: va
Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #323 on: June 27, 2022, 08:56:00 am »
Quote
Well if there iPhone had a USB-C port then they could charge it with the same charger cable that they use to change the iPad or MacBook Air (Those are USB-C not Lightning).

OK! Didn't know it was half and half land :)
 

Offline PlainName

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6796
  • Country: va
Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #324 on: June 27, 2022, 09:08:11 am »
Quote
The main issue I have with barrel connectors is the voltages aren't standardised. It's possible to plug a 12V power supply into a 5V device and fry it.

I thought that was kind of resolved by having 5V jacks with a 2.5mm pin and >5V with 2.1mm pin.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf