Author Topic: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices  (Read 50835 times)

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Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #325 on: June 27, 2022, 10:15:37 am »
This is easily solved by speaking some digital protocol over the wire, once it becomes a standard the semiconductor manufacturers quickly make cheep tiny single chip solutions to do this negotiation (because they know the market for this is large). So it does not add that much cost to the device and there is no licensing fee to pay for the standard. This also allows to negotiate other things than voltage, like the max current/wattage. It is not practical to make every charger output 5A at all its supported voltages. A tiny compact charger might do 5A at 5V but drop down to 2A at 20V.
The 1-Wire protocol has been widely used for this application for ages. I know it’s what Apple used in its MagSafe 1 and 2 chargers and I think (but am not certain) it was used in the earlier ones with the coaxial headphone plug thingies.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #326 on: June 27, 2022, 10:27:02 am »
Yep you would never want a analog feedback because if anything goes wrong with that feedback line (bad contact, short etc..) the output voltage might just fly off towards the max output voltage and kill the device.
That can be overcome with good design. If the analogue feedback inputs are biased to a slightly higher voltage, with high value resistors, the output voltage will drop to zero, if the feedback is disconnected.
But it makes no sense to employ precision analog circuitry when inexpensive digital is both more robust and more capable, e.g. capable of identifying charger model number, serial number, capabilities, etc.
That allows the load to decide what to do if, for example, not enough power is available to charge the battery and run the CPU at maximum speed. It can then decide whether to prioritize charging and throttle the CPU, or drain the battery to maintain maximum performance, as well as dim the screen, etc.

The main issue I have with barrel connectors is the voltages aren't standardised. It's possible to plug a 12V power supply into a 5V device and fry it.
This is what I like about the Japanese EIAJ barrel connector family: it’s sized by voltage family.

 

Offline Zero999

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #327 on: June 27, 2022, 10:47:47 am »
Yep you would never want a analog feedback because if anything goes wrong with that feedback line (bad contact, short etc..) the output voltage might just fly off towards the max output voltage and kill the device.
That can be overcome with good design. If the analogue feedback inputs are biased to a slightly higher voltage, with high value resistors, the output voltage will drop to zero, if the feedback is disconnected.
But it makes no sense to employ precision analog circuitry when inexpensive digital is both more robust and more capable, e.g. capable of identifying charger model number, serial number, capabilities, etc.
That allows the load to decide what to do if, for example, not enough power is available to charge the battery and run the CPU at maximum speed. It can then decide whether to prioritize charging and throttle the CPU, or drain the battery to maintain maximum performance, as well as dim the screen, etc.
I didn't say that analogue sensing should be done, just that reliability is not a reason for not doing it.

Quote
The main issue I have with barrel connectors is the voltages aren't standardised. It's possible to plug a 12V power supply into a 5V device and fry it.
This is what I like about the Japanese EIAJ barrel connector family: it’s sized by voltage family.
That's news to me. I have a box full of power supplies, some with the same barrel connectors and different voltages/polarities.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #328 on: June 27, 2022, 12:29:38 pm »
Quote
The main issue I have with barrel connectors is the voltages aren't standardised. It's possible to plug a 12V power supply into a 5V device and fry it.
This is what I like about the Japanese EIAJ barrel connector family: it’s sized by voltage family.
That's news to me. I have a box full of power supplies, some with the same barrel connectors and different voltages/polarities.
Yep, take a look: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EIAJ_connector

It’s not perfect, but it’s better than the complete free-for-all that the 5.5mm barrel jacks are.
 

Online Berni

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #329 on: June 27, 2022, 12:34:09 pm »
That maybe would have mattered in the past, but wired syncing has almost entirely gone the way of the dodo. (In addition to iCloud, which works very well, iPhones have supported local syncing to your computer via Wi-Fi for a long time now.)

Yep people more rarely transfer large files over USB to a phone these days.

Where it gets useful is for docks that might need to do more than that. We already got to a point where tablets are becoming laptop replacements for some people. So that port then gets a different role. It connects to a docking station that gives you an extra monitor, wired ethernet, extra USB ports etc.. This is a job that USB-C was made for but Lightning just can't do. This is also likely the reason why the latest iPads dropped Lightning.


But it makes no sense to employ precision analog circuitry when inexpensive digital is both more robust and more capable, e.g. capable of identifying charger model number, serial number, capabilities, etc.
That allows the load to decide what to do if, for example, not enough power is available to charge the battery and run the CPU at maximum speed. It can then decide whether to prioritize charging and throttle the CPU, or drain the battery to maintain maximum performance, as well as dim the screen, etc.

Yep these days digital is just easier to do, we can stuff it all into a chip anyway once there is market volume for it.

We do need to also communicate the amperage rating of the charger anyway so might as well pack all that information into a single binary stream over a single wire.

Also analog might be tricked by weird resistances inside a dirty/wet connector. Digital will not, it either identifies correctly or doesn't at all.

EDIT: Oh and if we went to barrel jacks then we would have the problem with "Hey Bob can you lend me that 20V fast charge cable for your laptop, i need to charge my phone."
Bob: "Oh no sorry my laptop uses the smaller 12V connector"
« Last Edit: June 27, 2022, 12:39:36 pm by Berni »
 

Offline TomKatt

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #330 on: June 27, 2022, 03:08:53 pm »
I'm for standardization too, but not for politics meddling with much anything other than safety, so I have mixed feelings about this.
My initial reaction was to agree with that sentiment, but I think more often than not manufacturers use profit margins to guide them instead of what is better for society.  It's a slippery slope, but I do believe there are times the govt needs to "persuade" change for the better.
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Offline madires

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #331 on: June 27, 2022, 03:51:53 pm »
There's no point in trying to debate anything Apple with an Apple fanboy.

Most likely cognitive dissonance at work. >:D
 

Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #332 on: June 27, 2022, 04:56:34 pm »
Where it gets useful is for docks that might need to do more than that. We already got to a point where tablets are becoming laptop replacements for some people. So that port then gets a different role. It connects to a docking station that gives you an extra monitor, wired ethernet, extra USB ports etc.. This is a job that USB-C was made for but Lightning just can't do. This is also likely the reason why the latest iPads dropped Lightning.
The first iPad model with USB-C was the 2018 iPad Pro. USB-C was expressly to support faster peripherals, especially storage (but also things like pro audio/video interfaces), as well as allow faster charging, since the iPad Pros could take a while on Lightning.

Since then, most (but not all!) of the iPad product line has been migrated to USB-C.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #333 on: June 27, 2022, 04:58:03 pm »
There's no point in trying to debate anything Apple with an Apple fanboy.

Most likely cognitive dissonance at work. >:D
The same is equally true of Apple haters, who cannot look past their prejudices, no matter what the facts of the situation are.
 
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Offline eugene

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #334 on: June 27, 2022, 05:00:02 pm »
My suggestion many posts back about using a barrel jack was somewhat sarcastic, or something, not sure what the right word is. But the basic point is this: If that goal is simply to decide on a common power port to use on all portable devices, then any USB port, in fact, just about any data port, is a poor choice. A common barrel jack is obviously superior from a mechanical and functional standpoint.

Oh wait, the USB C standard allows negotiation for multiple different voltages and max currents. Then I remembered a universal laptop power supply that I once owned. There was a selection of adapter tips that plugged into the end of the cord going to the laptop. Inside each adapter was (I assume) a pair of resistors that returned a reference voltage to the supply. This made it possible for the supply to provide any regulated voltage required in order to serve owners of laptops from different companies. So I tossed that out for everyone to chew on, and some of you did some chewing.

Obviously (I hope it's obvious) an analog feedback signal would not be a good solution moving forward, but it does highlight the fact that something as sophisticated (and fragile, and expensive) as USB C is not required if all you want is a common power port.

But, I also don't believe the goal is simply a common power port, so there you go.

EDIT: I do have serious concerns about the durability and lifetime of a USB C port when plugs are repeatedly inserted and removed, multiple times per day on the same device. The laptop I'm writing this on uses USB C for power, and it has generally been trouble free, but the simple fact is that the jack is a little more loose than it was when I bought the computer a year ago. The USB C power cable can often be seen hanging off the jack a little bit sideways. I push just push it back in. But, the fact is, the laptop has plenty of room for power jack intended just for power that would be far better suited to the job. This has nothing to do with laws. It's just an observation.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2022, 05:07:17 pm by eugene »
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Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #335 on: June 27, 2022, 05:11:45 pm »
So likely your cable is failing: part of the design of USB-C (compared to micro-USB or Lightning) was to move the contact and retention springs from the jack to the plug. That way, the cable wears out and not the device. The port has no moving parts at all.

Some reports say that loose USB-C ports can have the same cause as intermittent Lightning ports: dust packed into the bottom.
 
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Offline eugene

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #336 on: June 27, 2022, 05:29:52 pm »
It’s not perfect, but it’s better than the complete free-for-all that the 5.5mm barrel jacks are.

You are correct, barrel jacks are far from standardized. So just as a thought experiment, let's design a new power port that will remain useful for years to come.

To get things going, I propose the following:

It should be circular like barrel jacks and 3.5mm headphone jacks.

It should have a mechanism to keep it from slipping out. 3.5mm phone plugs have simple, functional feature. On the other hand, I'm willing to consider something with a positive locking mechanism that requires one to squeeze the connector in order to remove it. That might not be a good idea, I don't know. I'm willing to listen.

It should have a larger diameter than 3.5mm. Not because I think bigger is better, but because that would make it difficult to accidentally plug it into your headphone jack.

Just tossing it out there as something we can discuss without hostility or any hint of brand loyalty.
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Offline PlainName

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #337 on: June 27, 2022, 05:48:12 pm »
Quote
If that goal is simply to decide on a common power port to use on all portable devices, then any USB port, in fact, just about any data port, is a poor choice.

Not at all. A data and power port means there is only one connector, one cable, needed instead of at least two and probably three on some devices. The downside is that there is only one connector, one cable, so plugging in power from a wallwart and sending data to some device, showing the GUI on a display and talking to the network all at the same time can be tricky. It needs daisy-chaining in the standard, but instead we have additional hubs.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #338 on: June 27, 2022, 09:08:29 pm »
I think that depends entirely on the mechanical design (e.g. does the housing reinforce the jack, how is it mounted to the PCB, etc). Because many a laptop has died because of a failed barrel jack.

On this model, the jack is in the (metal) chassis frame,  connected to the PCB via wires internally.  Obviously this laptop was made to last as well as to be serviceable...   clearly no future for the designers involved who were probably all sent to re-education camps! :D

(Not to mention that Dell used the same barrel connectors on several generations of laptops, and the chargers all work across all of them!)
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #339 on: June 27, 2022, 09:20:12 pm »
[...]
It should have a mechanism to keep it from slipping out. 3.5mm phone plugs have simple, functional feature. On the other hand, I'm willing to consider something with a positive locking mechanism that requires one to squeeze the connector in order to remove it. That might not be a good idea, I don't know. I'm willing to listen.
[...]

I don't think positive locking mechanisms are a good idea.   My laptop barrel jack has saved me from disaster numerous times when stumbling over the power cable (by simply getting ripped out of the socket, rather than breaking anything)....    a positive locking cable would have broken something on those occasions.
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #340 on: June 27, 2022, 09:21:26 pm »
Quote
If that goal is simply to decide on a common power port to use on all portable devices, then any USB port, in fact, just about any data port, is a poor choice.

Not at all. A data and power port means there is only one connector, one cable, needed instead of at least two and probably three on some devices. The downside is that there is only one connector, one cable, so plugging in power from a wallwart and sending data to some device, showing the GUI on a display and talking to the network all at the same time can be tricky. It needs daisy-chaining in the standard, but instead we have additional hubs.


There could be more than one USB-C port on a device...   But they should all support the same features!!!
 

Online Berni

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #341 on: June 28, 2022, 06:31:11 am »
Quote
If that goal is simply to decide on a common power port to use on all portable devices, then any USB port, in fact, just about any data port, is a poor choice.

Not at all. A data and power port means there is only one connector, one cable, needed instead of at least two and probably three on some devices. The downside is that there is only one connector, one cable, so plugging in power from a wallwart and sending data to some device, showing the GUI on a display and talking to the network all at the same time can be tricky. It needs daisy-chaining in the standard, but instead we have additional hubs.

Usually the use case for this is again docking stations.

You get to your desk, set your laptop down and plug a single USB-C cable into it. This makes the dock provide the laptop with power to change it and the dock splits out all the functionality you need like display, ethernet, peripherals, storage etc..  This way you don't need to plug in 2 to 5 cables each time you want to work at your desk.

I do hate the trend of dropping USB-A ports in favor of USB-C on some modern laptops. There are still plenty of peripherals with USB-A that now need a dongle. They also tend to skimp on the number of USB-C ports. You still usually get only 2 to 4 USB ports per laptop, yet other things that used to be dedicated ports eat them up. Charging is now USB-C, HDMI is now over USB-C, Ethernet is now over USB-C. So if it is becoming this one connector to rule them all, do put more of them on to replace the ports that disappeared.
 
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Offline Zero999

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #342 on: June 28, 2022, 07:13:09 am »
There's no point in trying to debate anything Apple with an Apple fanboy.

Most likely cognitive dissonance at work. >:D
The same is equally true of Apple haters, who cannot look past their prejudices, no matter what the facts of the situation are.
Good to know I'm in the Apple ambivalent category. There are things I dislike, such as the crappy connector and lack of a headphone jack, whilst I like the user interface and its much less buggy that other products.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #343 on: June 28, 2022, 08:56:23 am »
Quote
Usually the use case for this is again docking stations.

That's surely just a glorified hub  >:D
 

Offline Miyuki

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #344 on: June 28, 2022, 09:06:21 am »
I just wonder how many cables and connectors it will burn in high power work/gaming laptops
It will be a nice heap of waste  >:D
I'm talking about those 100-200W devices that look to also will have to have USB-C just a little later 

Transfering say average 100W for 8 hours a day
Every little disturbance of that connector will just end up catastrophically
 

Online Berni

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #345 on: June 28, 2022, 09:15:49 am »
Quote
Usually the use case for this is again docking stations.

That's surely just a glorified hub  >:D
Pretty much yeah.

Tho most of the docks use the extra high speed pairs in USB-C to get DisplayPort or Thunderbolt across to it. This gives it more performance as not everything has to be stuffed down the USB lines.

This is also the reason why USB-C dock compatibility is a shitshow despite all of them using the same connector. If you plug a dock that wants to use Thunderbolt into a laptop that only supports USB 3.0 or DisplayPort on its USB-C port it simply will not work for seemingly no reason. The only way to know is doing research online or just trying to plug it in. There is no standard way to mark USB ports by capability, they all just get marked with the genetic USB logo. Here is where USB-C shoot itself in the foot.
 
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Offline KaneTW

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #346 on: June 28, 2022, 09:25:29 am »
Thunderbolt/USB4 are also a *very* restricted ecosystem. I have an application that's perfect for Thunderbolt and even just the pre-certification process is like pulling teeth.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #347 on: June 28, 2022, 11:09:43 am »
This is also the reason why USB-C dock compatibility is a shitshow despite all of them using the same connector. If you plug a dock that wants to use Thunderbolt into a laptop that only supports USB 3.0 or DisplayPort on its USB-C port it simply will not work for seemingly no reason. The only way to know is doing research online or just trying to plug it in. There is no standard way to mark USB ports by capability, they all just get marked with the genetic USB logo. Here is where USB-C shoot itself in the foot.
No, there are standards for it, it’s just that people ignore them when designing gadgets.
 

Online Berni

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #348 on: June 28, 2022, 11:25:04 am »
Ah indeed there is an convention for making ports:
https://www.kensington.com/news/docking-connectivity-blog/usb-c-demystified/

But i am guessing it is on the device manufacturers to be aware of it and mark things accordingly. We already had manufacturers changing the color of the USB-A connectors inner plastic to whatever suits the visual look of there device rather than following the colors by the spec that tell you what type of USB port it is.
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices
« Reply #349 on: June 28, 2022, 04:58:22 pm »
Ah indeed there is an convention for making ports:
https://www.kensington.com/news/docking-connectivity-blog/usb-c-demystified/

But i am guessing it is on the device manufacturers to be aware of it and mark things accordingly. We already had manufacturers changing the color of the USB-A connectors inner plastic to whatever suits the visual look of there device rather than following the colors by the spec that tell you what type of USB port it is.

As far as I've seen, none of the "conventional" markings can indicate whether a given USB-C port supports *charging the device* through it. Please tell me that I missed it, though.
 
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