The EU is enforcing USB-C on portable devices

[SilverSolder]

None of the USB-C devices near me here (laptop, phone) show any symbols at all next to their ports...   so, it is a mystery what they actually support.

The USB-C standards committee has dropped a clanger here, for sure - ruining the simple elegance of USB.

[SiliconWizard]

Yep. While a single USB-C connector on a mobile phone, and even on a tablet, has about 100% probability of serving as a charging port (especially if there's no other charging port available), the situation becomes blurry on laptops, or mobile devices that would have several USB-C ports.

I recently had a colleague wonder whether they could charge their laptop through one of the USB-C ports (the laptop has otherwise a dedicated barrel jack charging port.) Turns out it was undocumented for this particular model, while other models of the same brand either officially supported it or officially did not. He bluntly tried on one of the USB-C ports, and it... worked. Who knows why it was not documented but still implemented. Maybe tests had just shown issues, or maybe it didn't pass EMC, or maybe just for marketing reasons... Either way, there is no indication on the port itself whatsoever whether it will support charging or not.

[Berni]

As far as I've seen, none of the "conventional" markings can indicate whether a given USB-C port supports *charging the device* through it. Please tell me that I missed it, though.

Yep i could also not figure out what port is for charging. Or can that be done by any of the ports? Or is the battery symbol actually bidirectional. So fast charging output but also fast charging input.

Another thing that i found a bit confusing by the standard is how Thunderbolt support is marked. This shows the Thunderbolt capable port having a lightning bolt drawn next to it and no USB symbol at all, even tho it actually includes USB 2.0 capability (and all other examples have the USB logo in it somewhere). Then in a confusing way a fast charging USB port is shown to have a USB logo and a different lightning bolt icon on it. To make things even more confusing Thunderbolt capable ports also include DisplayPort capability, yet that table does not show a DP logo next to it.

Then making things worse there is no mention of the HDMI alternate mode (that USB-C can support by the spec). Given that the new DisplayPort specs do include a special mode that allows HDMI emulation on passive adapter cables, so one would expect the DP symbol means USB-C to HDMI cables will work. Yet this does not seam to be the case. Acording to wikipedia active adapters are required for this. Instead to get a passive HDMI cable your device needs to actually support the HDMI mode specificaly.

This thing is a mess 

[tszaboo]

As far as I've seen, none of the "conventional" markings can indicate whether a given USB-C port supports *charging the device* through it. Please tell me that I missed it, though.

Yep i could also not figure out what port is for charging. Or can that be done by any of the ports?

Yes, this is a mystery. Quite a pickle.

Maybe vote with your wallet, and only buy devices that mark the port?  Or maybe the politicians can mandate the markings, but that would limit innovation. What if a better symbol is invented?

[eugene]

It wouldn't bother me if the politicians mandated decent documentation.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Video: I made a USB-C iPhone 13

[Berni]

Nice work on it!

[Ed.Kloonk]

Nice work on it!

I clicked on the vid, just on a whim but he sure pulled out all the stops.

 

[SiliconWizard]

It wouldn't bother me if the politicians mandated decent documentation.

I wouldn't mind if the politicians mandated their own demise.

[mairo]

What I would like to see, not sure if covered here already or already available on the market, is electric power tools from various manufacturers (AEG, Bosch, Makita, Ryobi, DeWalt ...) to work with same batteries.

[tooki]

What I would like to see, not sure if covered here already or already available on the market, is electric power tools from various manufacturers (AEG, Bosch, Makita, Ryobi, DeWalt ...) to work with same batteries.

(I have no idea if such a standard exists.)

The only potential downside I see is perhaps an increase in unsafe counterfeit batteries. Annoying as it is, I do understand why so many device manufacturers use authentication chips to prevent third party batteries, given that (Samsung’s Note 7 fiasco aside), most cellphone and digital camera battery fires are apparently due to third party batteries, if I remember correctly.

So strictly from a product liability perspective, there is logic in attempting to keep out batteries you didn’t make yourself.

The only products I’m aware of where standardized third-party batteries are the norm is broadcast video equipment, where the industry-standard “V mount” is used for tons of cameras, etc. (In the past, it was common for the camera to have one, the video tape recorder another, maybe another for the audio recorder… All interchangeable.) A company called Anton Bauer is dominant, but many, many competitors exist.

[nctnico]

What I would like to see, not sure if covered here already or already available on the market, is electric power tools from various manufacturers (AEG, Bosch, Makita, Ryobi, DeWalt ...) to work with same batteries.

(I have no idea if such a standard exists.)

The only potential downside I see is perhaps an increase in unsafe counterfeit batteries. Annoying as it is, I do understand why so many device manufacturers use authentication chips to prevent third party batteries, given that (Samsung’s Note 7 fiasco aside), most cellphone and digital camera battery fires are apparently due to third party batteries, if I remember correctly.

Not really. There are standard form factor batteries which are interchangeable. It is up to the user to buy good quality or crappy batteries.

[free_electron]

Mandated standard : Great. no more endless mishmash of wires, adapters and whatnot.
Paying standard : total failure. Such a standard needs to be open and accessible. now it is locked behind a paywall. you cannot make a device without signing nda , paying dues and whatnot.
having to pay for compliance testing is ok if you want to put a product in the market, but you should be able to do the design without cost and hoop jumping.

if you design an electrical plug you don't need to pay for the standard, just for compliance testing

[tooki]

What I would like to see, not sure if covered here already or already available on the market, is electric power tools from various manufacturers (AEG, Bosch, Makita, Ryobi, DeWalt ...) to work with same batteries.

(I have no idea if such a standard exists.)

The only potential downside I see is perhaps an increase in unsafe counterfeit batteries. Annoying as it is, I do understand why so many device manufacturers use authentication chips to prevent third party batteries, given that (Samsung’s Note 7 fiasco aside), most cellphone and digital camera battery fires are apparently due to third party batteries, if I remember correctly.

Not really. There are standard form factor batteries which are interchangeable. It is up to the user to buy good quality or crappy batteries.

Unfortunately, a large percentage of the third-party cellphone batteries were sold to people who thought they were buying original ones: counterfeits. We cannot expect every consumer to be an expert in identifying genuine or high-quality aftermarket batteries. I categorically reject the argument of “caveat emptor” as the mechanism for preventing unsafe products from entering the market.

Regardless, you entirely missed the key point of my statement: product liability. From a phone or camera manufacturer’s perspective — where THEY will be the first entity sued when something goes wrong — I think it’s entirely logical to block third party batteries.

[tooki]

Mandated standard : Great. no more endless mishmash of wires, adapters and whatnot.
Paying standard : total failure. Such a standard needs to be open and accessible. now it is locked behind a paywall. you cannot make a device without signing nda , paying dues and whatnot.
having to pay for compliance testing is ok if you want to put a product in the market, but you should be able to do the design without cost and hoop jumping.

if you design an electrical plug you don't need to pay for the standard, just for compliance testing

LOL what? You can go on the USB-IF website right now and download the standards. They’re not paywalled. You can make a USB compliant gadget without licensing USB, you just can’t put a USB logo on it. For that, you need to pay for… wait for it… compliance testing.

The $5k/yr for USB-IF membership is peanuts to the companies making these products. Compliance testing is surely far more expensive.

[Zero999]

What I would like to see, not sure if covered here already or already available on the market, is electric power tools from various manufacturers (AEG, Bosch, Makita, Ryobi, DeWalt ...) to work with same batteries.

(I have no idea if such a standard exists.)

The only potential downside I see is perhaps an increase in unsafe counterfeit batteries. Annoying as it is, I do understand why so many device manufacturers use authentication chips to prevent third party batteries, given that (Samsung’s Note 7 fiasco aside), most cellphone and digital camera battery fires are apparently due to third party batteries, if I remember correctly.

Not really. There are standard form factor batteries which are interchangeable. It is up to the user to buy good quality or crappy batteries.

Unfortunately, a large percentage of the third-party cellphone batteries were sold to people who thought they were buying original ones: counterfeits. We cannot expect every consumer to be an expert in identifying genuine or high-quality aftermarket batteries. I categorically reject the argument of “caveat emptor” as the mechanism for preventing unsafe products from entering the market.

Regardless, you entirely missed the key point of my statement: product liability. From a phone or camera manufacturer’s perspective — where THEY will be the first entity sued when something goes wrong — I think it’s entirely logical to block third party batteries.

Counterfeit batteries is a straw man. If manufacturers were genuinely worried about being sued because the customer fitted fake batteries, then why are there still so many devices which run on alkaline cells? It's easy to prove the customer fitted third party batteries. A simple code printed on the OEM battery (this can be in a discrete place, in invisible ink) would prove that.

[PlainName]

A simple code printed on the OEM battery

...would be faked too, if the user needed to check it. If not, once the user has bought the battery (that he may think is OEM) no-one cares except the manufacturer, and by then it's too late.

Also, simple codes tend not to survive a conflagration event

Perhaps a better solution would be the provide replacements are a good price. Sure, they won't price out the fakers but if it's close enough most punters would opt for genuine rather than after-market. The ones that really must save the last penny... well,  nothing's going to persuade them anyway.

[Monkeh]

if you design an electrical plug you don't need to pay for the standard, just for compliance testing

Errr.

Please go find a legal, free copy of BS 1363, IEC 60320, IEC 60309, AS/NZS 3112, CEE 7 and IEC 60884-1, ....

And before you go "But I can get my shitty flimsy NEMA 5 dimensions for free" - The US is irrelevant in this context anyway, because we are discussing the EU.

[themadhippy]

What I would like to see, not sure if covered here already or already available on the market, is electric power tools from various manufacturers (AEG, Bosch, Makita, Ryobi, DeWalt ...) to work with same batteries.

https://www.powerforall-alliance.com/en/partners/

[ataradov]

https://www.powerforall-alliance.com/en/partners/

This looks more like Bosch and a bunch of small companies that could not be bothered or don't have enough scale to make their own batteries.

At the same time, there are adapters for most brands of batteries to most brands of tools. All the popular combinations are covered.

[SilverSolder]

[....] I think it’s entirely logical to block third party batteries.

Noooooo, @Tooki! 

That is just creating a monopoly situation that guarantees high prices.   Imagine if you couldn't choose the tyres for your car, and you had to buy ones sold by the car manufacturer...   

[themadhippy]

and a bunch of small companies

maybe to you,but flymo is a well  known brands of lawn mower  here ,ask us what a cub cadet is and i'd bet more replies would say a young boy in a green uniform rather than one of americas popular lawn mowers and husqvarna has been going nearly as long as the white man has been of stealing land  off indians

that could not be bothered or don't have enough scale to make their own

so how many companys build there products from the raw materials,instead of buying components from a company that specialises  in that part? do ford  make the chips in there ecu's

[ataradov]

so how many companys build there products from the raw materials,instead of buying components

It is not about building from scratch, it is about business model. Large tool vendors make their money on batteries. Mandating some standard type of battery will force them to reconsider their business model. This may be for the best, hard to tell.

For me personally, I like the cheaper tools because I don't use them enough to kill the batteries.  I have Ryobi drill that I bought 10 years ago and it is still on the original battery. Same situation with printers. My $50 printer is still on the original cartridge. This one actually developed some minor vertical lines. But it lasted long enough that I'm sure Samsung lost money on me.

And from what I see the companies on the list are not professional tool makers. The market there may be different.

[Black Phoenix]

And from what I see the companies on the list are not professional tool makers. The market there may be different.

Well it's a start but still not enough. Wake me up when Makita, DeWalt, Hitachi, Hilti and Milwaukee are members.

Those are the ones who lock you in their ecosystem with their battery systems. Hilti now even have a new system of batteries - https://www.hilti.com/content/hilti/W1/US/en/company/news/press-releases/2022-nuron.html

TLDR - one type of battery for all their products and the batteries have telemetry integrated who tracks, and citing their website:

Connected to the cloud for increased productivity

Nuron brings intelligence to the core of the platform – all tools generate data which is then stored on the Nuron batteries and sent securely to the cloud during every charge without any operator interaction. The data collected includes information such as tool usage, tool utilization, charging location and battery state-of-health. This information can then be used to alert individuals if action is needed immediately or can be accessed on-demand as required and is available on mobile and desktop via Hilti’s ON!Track software platform. Together with services like Hilti Fleet Management tool data can be used to reduce downtime and optimize tool cribs to boost customer productivity.

They also said in a interview I saw that it helps regarding tools that are stolen from work sites, companies and vehicles. So let's give them even more control to decide when a battery is in need to be replaced because (said no one) the manufacturer knows the best for the customer...

Although as you said and correctly there are adapters available for most type of combinations.

[tooki]

Counterfeit batteries is a straw man. If manufacturers were genuinely worried about being sued because the customer fitted fake batteries, then why are there still so many devices which run on alkaline cells? It's easy to prove the customer fitted third party batteries. A simple code printed on the OEM battery (this can be in a discrete place, in invisible ink) would prove that.

When is the last time you heard about an alkaline battery turning into a flamethrower in someone’s pocket? The safety issue is specific to lithium ion batteries.

And yyyyeah, counterfeiters have been cloning batteries, including the authenticity holograms, for years. A simple printed code won’t do. Hence using authentication ICs.