Author Topic: The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature  (Read 4175 times)

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Offline tom66

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Re: The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2023, 06:19:33 pm »
   Keep this in mind, OVER 50% of the drivers in Florida have NO insurance despite the fact that it's been required by the state since about 1969.

I really like the idea NZ has:  basic third party liability cover comes from a tax on gasoline/diesel.  So per mile you pay for your 3rd party insurance.  You are of course responsible for damage to your own vehicle, but that's really only your problem if you damage it.
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2023, 06:29:18 pm »
I particularly don't like headlights that cost a thousand dollars to repair/replace when I can just buy a bulb for  $50. It makes insurance premiums that much higher too when even a minor accident can irreparably damage one.

As someone who was "recently" involved in a crash in a European car (someone hit me up the rear at 40-50 km/hr), I can attest to the pain of trying to get parts from overseas.

No excuse not to have at least 3rd party insurance in this day and age.

   Keep this in mind, OVER 50% of the drivers in Florida have NO insurance despite the fact that it's been required by the state since about 1969.
That says more about Florida than the drivers. Over here you'll automatically receive a fine for not having a car insurance. These fines are quite hefty as well.
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Offline coppice

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Re: The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2023, 06:51:55 pm »
I'm very happy having most things on the dashboard accessed by a touch screen, but who thought it was a good idea to make all the controls on the steering wheel touch?

Most of the complaints people make about touchscreens in cars are really about pathetic UI design. The sizes of touch areas are often too small for someone trying to hit them while driving. In many cars things are very inconsistent, and some commonly used functions you want quick access to every day are buried deep in menus.
 

Offline AVGresponding

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Re: The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2023, 07:13:19 pm »
I particularly don't like headlights that cost a thousand dollars to repair/replace when I can just buy a bulb for  $50. It makes insurance premiums that much higher too when even a minor accident can irreparably damage one.

As someone who was "recently" involved in a crash in a European car (someone hit me up the rear at 40-50 km/hr), I can attest to the pain of trying to get parts from overseas.

No excuse not to have at least 3rd party insurance in this day and age.

   Keep this in mind, OVER 50% of the drivers in Florida have NO insurance despite the fact that it's been required by the state since about 1969.
That says more about Florida than the drivers. Over here you'll automatically receive a fine for not having a car insurance. These fines are quite hefty as well.

Your car will be seized here, the fines are hefty also, and there's a real possibility of jail time.
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Offline tom66

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Re: The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2023, 07:19:59 pm »
I'm very happy having most things on the dashboard accessed by a touch screen, but who thought it was a good idea to make all the controls on the steering wheel touch?

I thought the same about my car, but the haptic feedback function and the fact that you can map things based on touch pressure makes it a net win.  For instance, the adaptive cruise control - a firm press is +/-5mph, and a light press (quite distinct in force) is +/-1mph.

The button also vibrates such that it pretty much feels real - you can just about tell it's not a real button but the effect is close enough to fool you into thinking you've pressed 'something'.

I guess a major benefit to this is that they don't have to design safety-critical multiple-redundant switches for things like ACC any more.  You must be able to turn off ACC with a single button press (some people forget the brake does this too), which means that you need a doubly redundant switch and that needs to be reliable for the 'life' of the car.  So even though you need a haptic actuator with the captouch solution, you probably save money overall.
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2023, 07:38:37 pm »
I particularly don't like headlights that cost a thousand dollars to repair/replace when I can just buy a bulb for  $50. It makes insurance premiums that much higher too when even a minor accident can irreparably damage one.

As someone who was "recently" involved in a crash in a European car (someone hit me up the rear at 40-50 km/hr), I can attest to the pain of trying to get parts from overseas.

No excuse not to have at least 3rd party insurance in this day and age.

   Keep this in mind, OVER 50% of the drivers in Florida have NO insurance despite the fact that it's been required by the state since about 1969.
That says more about Florida than the drivers. Over here you'll automatically receive a fine for not having a car insurance. These fines are quite hefty as well.

   They'll fine you for not having insurance in Florida too.  But not if you're an illegal and you disappear back into the woodwork.  Ask me how I know!  The biggest problem in Florida isn't this state, it's the fact that SO MANY people here are from out of the state or out of the country and they can just vamoose when they get in trouble with the law. The state isn't going to try and extradite them back to Florida for a traffic offense so once they're gone, that's the end of it.  That was huge problem with people from other states;  even before illegals started pouring in by the millions.
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2023, 07:43:10 pm »
I'm very happy having most things on the dashboard accessed by a touch screen, but who thought it was a good idea to make all the controls on the steering wheel touch?

I thought the same about my car, but the haptic feedback function and the fact that you can map things based on touch pressure makes it a net win.  For instance, the adaptive cruise control - a firm press is +/-5mph, and a light press (quite distinct in force) is +/-1mph.


  Sheesh, and on my cars I have to tap the (real) button five times, or hold it down for a count of five, to change the speed by 5 MPH.  I feel so dated!    ;D
 

Offline coppice

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Re: The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2023, 08:08:57 pm »
I'm very happy having most things on the dashboard accessed by a touch screen, but who thought it was a good idea to make all the controls on the steering wheel touch?

I thought the same about my car, but the haptic feedback function and the fact that you can map things based on touch pressure makes it a net win.  For instance, the adaptive cruise control - a firm press is +/-5mph, and a light press (quite distinct in force) is +/-1mph.

The button also vibrates such that it pretty much feels real - you can just about tell it's not a real button but the effect is close enough to fool you into thinking you've pressed 'something'.

I guess a major benefit to this is that they don't have to design safety-critical multiple-redundant switches for things like ACC any more.  You must be able to turn off ACC with a single button press (some people forget the brake does this too), which means that you need a doubly redundant switch and that needs to be reliable for the 'life' of the car.  So even though you need a haptic actuator with the captouch solution, you probably save money overall.
If you have ACC why would you want to set the target speed in 1MPH increments? Do you have some 33MPH speed limits you need to match? My Volvo just sets the car's speed at the time you enable ACC, and moves from there to rounded 5MPH steps on the buttons.

How are you going to match the reliability of a redundant physical switch with something as flaky as capacitive touch controls?
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2023, 08:39:03 pm »
 Actually some jurisdictions in the US do have odd speed limits such as 27 MPH.  They do it because they think people will take more notice of the odd amount and will more of an effort to stay below the limit. 

  OTOH a lot of people like to bump their speed up a few MPH more that the legal limit since the police (in Florida anyway) usually won't stop you unless you're doing at least 5 MPH over the legal limit.  But don't try that in Virginia!! They absolutely will stop you, even for 1 MPH over.  Yes, been there done that, and have the ticket to show for it :(
 
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Offline tom66

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Re: The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2023, 09:10:47 pm »
If you have ACC why would you want to set the target speed in 1MPH increments? Do you have some 33MPH speed limits you need to match? My Volvo just sets the car's speed at the time you enable ACC, and moves from there to rounded 5MPH steps on the buttons.

How are you going to match the reliability of a redundant physical switch with something as flaky as capacitive touch controls?

I won't comment further for risk of incriminating myself  ;D, but maybe the limit could be considered, as a friend of mine declares "speed limit plus some VAT", so the 1mph adjustment is helpful to set an ideal speed.

I can easily see why a captouch button would be more reliable than a physical switch.  There's no possibility of moisture or dirt getting in or behind the button (that's happened on my previous car that has physical button for ACC, I had to take it off and clean it).  The captouch buttons could continuously calibrate themselves to the 'no press' condition so they can handle dirt etc. building up on the switch area.  Given the safety-critical nature of controls like this, I am certain the manufacturer has taken a decent amount of effort to ensure they are safe and operable for a very long time.

This car also has the option to set the speed limit to the detected road limit, and decelerates automatically to match a new limit.  Very clever... a little too clever!
« Last Edit: April 29, 2023, 09:12:27 pm by tom66 »
 

Offline coppice

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Re: The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2023, 09:21:59 pm »
If you have ACC why would you want to set the target speed in 1MPH increments? Do you have some 33MPH speed limits you need to match? My Volvo just sets the car's speed at the time you enable ACC, and moves from there to rounded 5MPH steps on the buttons.

How are you going to match the reliability of a redundant physical switch with something as flaky as capacitive touch controls?

I won't comment further for risk of incriminating myself  ;D, but maybe the limit could be considered, as a friend of mine declares "speed limit plus some VAT", so the 1mph adjustment is helpful to set an ideal speed.

I can easily see why a captouch button would be more reliable than a physical switch.  There's no possibility of moisture or dirt getting in or behind the button (that's happened on my previous car that has physical button for ACC, I had to take it off and clean it).  The captouch buttons could continuously calibrate themselves to the 'no press' condition so they can handle dirt etc. building up on the switch area.  Given the safety-critical nature of controls like this, I am certain the manufacturer has taken a decent amount of effort to ensure they are safe and operable for a very long time.

This car also has the option to set the speed limit to the detected road limit, and decelerates automatically to match a new limit.  Very clever... a little too clever!
Trying to make the continuous adaptation in cap touch sensors be really robust in the presence of things frequently waving around near the pad but not touching it is quite a problem. Not one I've ever seen fully solved. Water on the pad is also a serious problem. The more robust solutions now use guard electrodes, and that has got touch pads into some kitchen appliances where I'm not sure they really belong. A lot of effort has gone into things like phones, and they still screw up the adaptation quite often. Its pretty benign there, as phones aren't usually controlling heavy loads. You just blank the screen, wake it up, and it re-adapts. Not all touch in cars uses the capacitive approach. The IR matrix approach is much more robust, but I don't see how that could be used on a non-flat surface. The kind of inductive touch used in things like security keypads and elevators, where you minutely deform a diaphram can be extremely robust.
 

Online Psi

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Re: The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2023, 10:01:05 pm »
   Keep this in mind, OVER 50% of the drivers in Florida have NO insurance despite the fact that it's been required by the state since about 1969.

I really like the idea NZ has:  basic third party liability cover comes from a tax on gasoline/diesel.  So per mile you pay for your 3rd party insurance.  You are of course responsible for damage to your own vehicle, but that's really only your problem if you damage it.

err, you must be thinking of a different country.  We have 3rd party but you pay for it. Not part of fuel tax.
3rd party cover is usually around NZ$200-$350 a year
where as full cover is around NZ$600-$1500 a year
« Last Edit: April 29, 2023, 10:06:02 pm by Psi »
Greek letter 'Psi' (not Pounds per Square Inch)
 
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Online themadhippy

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Re: The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2023, 11:34:23 pm »
Quote
If you have ACC why would you want to set the target speed in 1MPH increments
maybe its a universal design used across the entire range of the manufacturers vehicles,so 56mph  would need to be settable
 

Offline m k

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Re: The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature
« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2023, 08:26:39 am »
I want to put it to something 7.
5 is irritatingly too low and next 0 start affecting speed cameras.
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Offline jonovid

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Re: The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature
« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2023, 08:36:39 am »
the horseless carriage comes full circle ::)
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Offline tom66

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Re: The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature
« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2023, 08:55:22 am »
err, you must be thinking of a different country.  We have 3rd party but you pay for it. Not part of fuel tax.
3rd party cover is usually around NZ$200-$350 a year
where as full cover is around NZ$600-$1500 a year

Seems to be injury-only third party cover, must have misread that it covers everything.
https://www.aa.co.nz/insurance/car-and-vehicle-insurance/third-party-car-insurance/third-party-insurance/

So I guess you're still liable for property damage, but at least the biggest cost of accidents (which is usually injury and injury compensation) is covered.
 

Online BradC

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Re: The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2023, 12:22:36 pm »
Most of the complaints people make about touchscreens in cars are really about pathetic UI design. The sizes of touch areas are often too small for someone trying to hit them while driving.

No, the complaint is regardless of the UI design with a touch screen, you *need* to look at it to target. There's no such need with hard buttons and knobs. Touch screens are incompatible with motor memory and tactile cues, so you need to take your eyes off the road to operate one.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2023, 04:19:19 pm »
Most of the complaints people make about touchscreens in cars are really about pathetic UI design. The sizes of touch areas are often too small for someone trying to hit them while driving.

No, the complaint is regardless of the UI design with a touch screen, you *need* to look at it to target. There's no such need with hard buttons and knobs. Touch screens are incompatible with motor memory and tactile cues, so you need to take your eyes off the road to operate one.

They also usually don't work if you're wearing gloves, which is not uncommon in colder climates, and many of them don't work well with my bare fingers even, I don't know why. The main thing though that should have made them illegal to have in a car is as you mention, the fact that you HAVE to take your eyes off the road to operate it. There is simply no safe way to interact with a touchscreen while driving.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2023, 09:20:09 pm »
They also usually don't work if you're wearing gloves, which is not uncommon in colder climates, and many of them don't work well with my bare fingers even, I don't know why. The main thing though that should have made them illegal to have in a car is as you mention, the fact that you HAVE to take your eyes off the road to operate it. There is simply no safe way to interact with a touchscreen while driving.
The ones that use IR beams work OK with gloves. Maybe that's why Volvos work that way.

I need to look away for the mechanical switches on a dashboard. The only ones that work well by feel are the ones on the steering wheel and stalks, that you use a lot and get really used to.

Everything is mysteriously located in a rental car (i.e. one you are not used to), even how to turn the damned headlights on. How come such basic controls as that haven't settled into fairly standard locations like indicators have?
 

Offline Ranayna

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Re: The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature
« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2023, 10:11:00 pm »
I very much hope that this trend will not be limited to expensive and very cheap cars.

I want buttons and a key starter (no keyless go), but at the same time also would want something like Apple Car Play.
All steeringwheel controls (so blinker, highbeam, wiper, cruise control) and at least also the climate control and radio volume i want mechanical. On the other hand i don't care about the main light switch for example, since that would be always on anyway.

Im not in the market for a car at the moment, but i wonder if there will be something like this available in the next couple of years without costing an arm and a leg.
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature
« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2023, 10:31:30 pm »
so easy to have a accident even trying to change the radio. bring back the seek button
 

Offline james_s

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Re: The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature
« Reply #46 on: May 01, 2023, 12:13:47 am »
I need to look away for the mechanical switches on a dashboard. The only ones that work well by feel are the ones on the steering wheel and stalks, that you use a lot and get really used to.

I don't. My car has a mix of rocker switches, rotary knobs and sliders, they are laid out logically and I know where all of them are. I operate them without looking down easily, similar to how I type without taking my eyes off the screen because I know where all the keys are and muscle memory takes care of the rest. Even having not been in my car in several days I know that to the right of the steering column is the ignition switch, followed by the sunroof switch, then the rear defogger switch, then the heater fan knob, then a slider to select the vents and below that another slider to adjust the temperature.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature
« Reply #47 on: May 01, 2023, 12:15:48 am »
I very much hope that this trend will not be limited to expensive and very cheap cars.

I want buttons and a key starter (no keyless go), but at the same time also would want something like Apple Car Play.
All steeringwheel controls (so blinker, highbeam, wiper, cruise control) and at least also the climate control and radio volume i want mechanical. On the other hand i don't care about the main light switch for example, since that would be always on anyway.

Im not in the market for a car at the moment, but i wonder if there will be something like this available in the next couple of years without costing an arm and a leg.

The DIN slot was invented for a very good reason and it made this easy. Want Car Play? Buy a head unit that offers it. A few years down the road when they've released a new version that doesn't work with your old hardware just buy a new head unit. It was great, far superior to these integrated infotainment systems they all have now.
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature
« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2023, 12:42:31 am »
err, you must be thinking of a different country.  We have 3rd party but you pay for it. Not part of fuel tax.
3rd party cover is usually around NZ$200-$350 a year
where as full cover is around NZ$600-$1500 a year

Seems to be injury-only third party cover, must have misread that it covers everything.
https://www.aa.co.nz/insurance/car-and-vehicle-insurance/third-party-car-insurance/third-party-insurance/

So I guess you're still liable for property damage, but at least the biggest cost of accidents (which is usually injury and injury compensation) is covered.

That is similar to Western Australia, where the third party injury insurance is integral with the vehicle license.(I think it is the only State where this is so).
If you want "third party property" insurance as well, you have to arrange that yourself with an insurance company.
Third party property was a popular policy for people with old, cheap, cars back in the day, but premiums have drifted up to nearly the same as comprehensive insurance, so most people opt for the better protection with the latter.
 

Offline Black PhoenixTopic starter

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Re: The Glorious Return of a Humble Car Feature
« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2023, 01:05:44 am »
I very much hope that this trend will not be limited to expensive and very cheap cars.

I want buttons and a key starter (no keyless go), but at the same time also would want something like Apple Car Play.
All steeringwheel controls (so blinker, highbeam, wiper, cruise control) and at least also the climate control and radio volume i want mechanical. On the other hand i don't care about the main light switch for example, since that would be always on anyway.

Im not in the market for a car at the moment, but i wonder if there will be something like this available in the next couple of years without costing an arm and a leg.

The DIN slot was invented for a very good reason and it made this easy. Want Car Play? Buy a head unit that offers it. A few years down the road when they've released a new version that doesn't work with your old hardware just buy a new head unit. It was great, far superior to these integrated infotainment systems they all have now.

That's fine and dandy but manufacturers prefer to have their own head units, who don't use a DIN Slot, have controls on the steering (that normally you need a extra loom to make it kinda compatible with a different head unit if you have the chance) and an extra screen that loses his functionality if you change the head unit.

That if your central console have a DIN Slot behind and there is a front bezel with the hole.

Most of them is just a specific bezel/faschia that doesn't have a replacement and you need to hack it to install your own unit.

Good that old cars were like that, most new ones you are out of luck.
 


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