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General => General Technical Chat => Topic started by: subolg123 on April 11, 2014, 11:26:16 pm

Title: The great capacitor shoot-out- more stupidity at 3 sigma
Post by: subolg123 on April 11, 2014, 11:26:16 pm
http://www.laventure.net/tourist/caps.htm (http://www.laventure.net/tourist/caps.htm)  |O
Title: Re: The great capacitor shoot-out- more stupidity at 3 sigma
Post by: theatrus on April 11, 2014, 11:51:17 pm
Quote
aural memory

that's really all you need to know about this article.
Title: Re: The great capacitor shoot-out- more stupidity at 3 sigma
Post by: nanofrog on April 12, 2014, 01:20:50 am
Quote
aural memory

that's really all you need to know about this article.
Exactly.

I interpret this as there's enough suckers people that there's a business opportunity for the right person that can come up with the right BS marketing material and pretty packaging.  ;)  :P
Title: Re: The great capacitor shoot-out- more stupidity at 3 sigma
Post by: TMM on April 12, 2014, 03:06:52 pm
Quote
While some caps had their outer foil clearly marked (VCap, Hovland, and so on), the RelCaps (among others) were sometimes a problem. When we bought RelCaps from Michael Percy Audio, the outer foil was already marked by MPA. Otherwise, we used an oscilloscope to locate it ourselves. To do this, we attached the hot and ground wires of the scope's probe to each lead of a given cap and placed the cap perpendicular to an active AC line, such as the power cord of the scope, itself. We observed the noise pattern on the scope, reversed the leads, and determined that the correct orientation was the one in which the scope's pattern display was the shortest in height. That is to say, when the display was the shortest, the scope's probe ground connection was considered to be connected to the outer foil of the cap.
:palm:
Title: Re: The great capacitor shoot-out- more stupidity at 3 sigma
Post by: Tac Eht Xilef on April 13, 2014, 04:02:09 am
Quote
While some caps had their outer foil clearly marked (VCap, Hovland, and so on), the RelCaps (among others) were sometimes a problem. When we bought RelCaps from Michael Percy Audio, the outer foil was already marked by MPA. Otherwise, we used an oscilloscope to locate it ourselves. To do this, we attached the hot and ground wires of the scope's probe to each lead of a given cap and placed the cap perpendicular to an active AC line, such as the power cord of the scope, itself. We observed the noise pattern on the scope, reversed the leads, and determined that the correct orientation was the one in which the scope's pattern display was the shortest in height. That is to say, when the display was the shortest, the scope's probe ground connection was considered to be connected to the outer foil of the cap.
:palm:

Notice they say "... the scope's probe ground connection was considered to be connected to the outer foil of the cap". This is their out. All they're really saying is that they had a method or process for making a decision, and stuck to it. They're not actually saying say it's the correct method, or a usable method, or even that it gives accurate /consistent / repeatable results - simply that they had a method, and the method itself was consistently applied.

It's both a blessing and a curse. On the one hand, it's a nice easy point for a later researcher to criticise - but, on the other hand, they then have to go through the whole process of proving the method is rubbish (and face the inevitable arguments with people who claim it isn't) before getting to present their own findings. And in the meantime there'll be plenty of other lazy studies which simply state something like "Our study used the method initially proposed by Bullshyte and Crapp, which was considered suitable for determining which lead is connected to the outer foil".

You might be surprised to learn how often that particular manipulative construct is used in scientific literature...
Title: Re: The great capacitor shoot-out- more stupidity at 3 sigma
Post by: BennyBoy on April 13, 2014, 11:26:59 pm
Really sick folks out there. Spending thousands on caps, when thousands of kids are starving.  :--  I blame the ignorant people for fuking without funds, but the poor kids should not have to pay with there lives, while A-holes argue over capacitors. :wtf:
Title: Re: The great capacitor shoot-out- more stupidity at 3 sigma
Post by: echen1024 on April 14, 2014, 02:19:57 am
I need to start my own cap business...
Title: Re: The great capacitor shoot-out- more stupidity at 3 sigma
Post by: sleemanj on April 14, 2014, 05:10:53 am
As per usual for pseudoscience  audiophoolery, they didn't bother with that whole rigorous scientific method thing.

Quote
these were not "blind" tests
the panel was [em]generally[/em] unaware of which cap they were listening to
hose with the lowest expectations were installed first followed by those for which the expectations were the highest,

|O

It's not like it would have been hard for them to do it properly, put up a screen between test subject and test setup.  Properly randomise the tests. Play the same music pieces for each test.  And throw in a control of some bog standard cap.  That's it.  Nothing more complicated needed.

Title: Re: The great capacitor shoot-out- more stupidity at 3 sigma
Post by: EEVblog on April 14, 2014, 05:35:15 am
Quote
With capacitors being one of the largest variables, we needed a method to show how they performed in different circuits under "real world" listening conditions. Of course, despite our attempt at objective evaluation, in reality, these opinions are highly subjective and based solely on our own listening tests in our own projects.

That's all you need to know to brand this audiophoolery.
You either get quantitative measurements (with say an Audio Precision), or you don't.
You can likely make one sound better by smearing it with peanut butter - so what?
Title: Re: The great capacitor shoot-out- more stupidity at 3 sigma
Post by: John Coloccia on April 14, 2014, 06:55:51 am
Quote
While some caps had their outer foil clearly marked (VCap, Hovland, and so on), the RelCaps (among others) were sometimes a problem. When we bought RelCaps from Michael Percy Audio, the outer foil was already marked by MPA. Otherwise, we used an oscilloscope to locate it ourselves. To do this, we attached the hot and ground wires of the scope's probe to each lead of a given cap and placed the cap perpendicular to an active AC line, such as the power cord of the scope, itself. We observed the noise pattern on the scope, reversed the leads, and determined that the correct orientation was the one in which the scope's pattern display was the shortest in height. That is to say, when the display was the shortest, the scope's probe ground connection was considered to be connected to the outer foil of the cap.
:palm:

Meh...amateur hour.  For only $200, you can send me your capacitors and I will use my x-ray galvanometer to PROPERLY and PROFESSIONALLY determine the outer foil.  Then I will trim the leads of the capacitor to the optimal lengths....not necessarily the SAME length, btw.  Only a complete novice would do that.  They will be trimmed to take the differential capacipedance into account.  Finally, they will be cryostatically biased.  I feel this last step is critical to opening the sound stage and preserving the width and depth of the music, while at the same time dramatizing the length.

In case some have forgotten here is a run down of my qualifications and equipment.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/spotted-this-and-had-to-share/msg340855/#msg340855 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/spotted-this-and-had-to-share/msg340855/#msg340855)

Title: Re: The great capacitor shoot-out- more stupidity at 3 sigma
Post by: amyk on April 14, 2014, 09:17:40 am
By "aural memory" they're not referring to some weirdness of the caps themselves, just the listener's idea of remembering how the previous choice sounded.
It's not like it would have been hard for them to do it properly, put up a screen between test subject and test setup.  Properly randomise the tests. Play the same music pieces for each test.  And throw in a control of some bog standard cap.  That's it.  Nothing more complicated needed.
And if you want to do the testing a little bit easier, connect up all the caps to random positions on a rotary switch. Ask the listener to turn the knob to the position that sounds best. Move caps to different positions on the switch, then repeat.
Title: Re: The great capacitor shoot-out- more stupidity at 3 sigma
Post by: zimzom on April 14, 2014, 10:23:18 am
(http://www.auplod.com/u/updoal2b0de.png)

I think it would be a great kick-starter project.

The angle that nobody seems to have explored is all these guys are worried about audio fidelity ect.. why not sell them hokum calibrated testing kits for the capacitors, resistors, valves, transformers ect. Have a little meter with "audio warmth", "aural memory checker" ect..

The thing is all these fellas that prey upon the excess cash and naivety of the customers will have to buy into the scam because it perpetuates the overall market. They cannot call you out for fear of bringing down the whole house of cards.

Title: Re: The great capacitor shoot-out- more stupidity at 3 sigma
Post by: AntiProtonBoy on April 14, 2014, 01:47:24 pm
One day, I'm going to make a troll site for audiofools, just for the lulz.  >:D
Title: Re: The great capacitor shoot-out- more stupidity at 3 sigma
Post by: NANDBlog on April 14, 2014, 01:53:26 pm
I need to start my own cap business...
That would be an overkill. Just pay some taiwan company for custom labels like:
"Omega One
Wolfram Teflon Triaxial
0.000001% THD 350V 125C"
Title: Re: The great capacitor shoot-out- more stupidity at 3 sigma
Post by: echen1024 on April 14, 2014, 04:19:28 pm
I need to start my own cap business...
That would be an overkill. Just pay some taiwan company for custom labels like:
"Omega One
Wolfram Teflon Triaxial
0.000001% THD 350V 125C"
Granted, I'm just gonna stick the cheapest caps I can find in Shenzhen electronics mart into a fancy looking wooden box, and then print off a crap cal certificate. Total cost to me? $20 at most. Sell it for $400.
Title: Re: The great capacitor shoot-out- more stupidity at 3 sigma
Post by: station240 on April 15, 2014, 03:00:09 am
I need to start my own cap business...
That would be an overkill. Just pay some taiwan company for custom labels like:
"Omega One
Wolfram Teflon Triaxial
0.000001% THD 350V 125C"
Granted, I'm just gonna stick the cheapest caps I can find in Shenzhen electronics mart into a fancy looking wooden box, and then print off a crap cal certificate. Total cost to me? $20 at most. Sell it for $400.

Bonus points if you find some of these at the markets and use them.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3059/2618014599_811b038cbc.jpg)

And yes in the original story, those caps were installed in an amplifier.
Title: Re: The great capacitor shoot-out- more stupidity at 3 sigma
Post by: EEVblog on April 15, 2014, 03:09:15 am
I'm waiting for an amp that has homeopathic levels of distortion.
Title: Re: The great capacitor shoot-out- more stupidity at 3 sigma
Post by: miguelvp on April 15, 2014, 03:17:12 am
I'm waiting for an amp that has homeopathic levels of distortion.

The thing is, they all do. But with the right tune, not the right cap.
Title: Re: The great capacitor shoot-out- more stupidity at 3 sigma
Post by: BravoV on April 15, 2014, 03:22:58 am
I'm waiting for an amp that has homeopathic levels of distortion.

Dave, ever consider to make a drive/walk through rant video dedicated on this audiophool matter ?  >:D

Hopefully it won't increase your daily death threads list.  :-DD
Title: Re: The great capacitor shoot-out- more stupidity at 3 sigma
Post by: TMM on April 15, 2014, 04:23:22 am
I need to start my own cap business...
That would be an overkill. Just pay some taiwan company for custom labels like:
"Omega One
Wolfram Teflon Triaxial
0.000001% THD 350V 125C"
Nah, wouldn't work. Audiofools disregard quantifiable measurements like THD and instead rely on their 'golden ears'.
Title: Re: The great capacitor shoot-out- more stupidity at 3 sigma
Post by: Dave on April 15, 2014, 01:26:58 pm
I'm waiting for an amp that has homeopathic levels of distortion.
Putting more amps in series to decrease THD?  :-DD
Title: Re: The great capacitor shoot-out- more stupidity at 3 sigma
Post by: NANDBlog on April 15, 2014, 05:14:47 pm
I'm waiting for an amp that has homeopathic levels of distortion.
Putting more amps in series to decrease THD?  :-DD
Sadly that actually works. On opamp level.
Title: Re: The great capacitor shoot-out- more stupidity at 3 sigma
Post by: Mark Hennessy on April 15, 2014, 08:58:31 pm
I'm waiting for an amp that has homeopathic levels of distortion.

Dave, ever consider to make a drive/walk through rant video dedicated on this audiophool matter ?  >:D

Hopefully it won't increase your daily death threads list.  :-DD

http://www.eevblog.com/2009/09/07/eevblog-29-audiophile-audiophoolery/ (http://www.eevblog.com/2009/09/07/eevblog-29-audiophile-audiophoolery/)