Author Topic: The Hyperloop: BUSTED  (Read 77549 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30304
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #150 on: October 07, 2016, 08:11:20 am »
Most people drive as it is quicker, cheaper and more convenient.

That was the point. Even if petrol was $5 a litre they'd still drive it if it's more convenient and faster.
If there was a suitable high speed train that was both of those things then people would use it.
 

Offline vk6zgo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5118
  • Country: au
Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #151 on: October 07, 2016, 09:06:48 am »
I think people would absolutely pay a pretty penny to get between major population centers quickly.

I think so too. People will pay for speed and convenience.

Had to laugh. The cost of a single ticket from Sydney to the City of Bathurst on our XPT train is $61 or $2.50 if you are entitled to a pensioner excursion ticket and it takes over 3 1/2 hours. The straight line distance is about 130km. The rail distance is about 200km.

For some reason, it is much more popular with pensioners then everyone else. Most people drive as it is quicker, cheaper and more convenient. I think it is only one passenger train a day on the line that serves the whole of Central NSW.

That is an indication of the state of our nationwide rail network. If you catch a suburban train from Sydney to Lithgow and catch a bus to Bathurst, it costs $8.80 but takes over 4 hours.

If we could have something like a regular country train service that could go at an average of 100kph at a cheap cost, that would be great.

"The Australind" over a similar distance,( Perth-Bunbury) takes 2Hrs 30 Mins.(an average of 66.8kmh).
Rail & road distances are near as dammit the same at 167 km for the train,& 170 by road.

PS:- "The Prospector" travels the 653 km to Kalgoorlie  in 6Hrs 45Mins (Average of 96.74 kmh)
« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 09:12:48 am by vk6zgo »
 

Offline max_torque

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1080
  • Country: gb
    • bitdynamics
Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #152 on: October 07, 2016, 12:57:53 pm »
Thing is, if you build an aeroplane, it can land at any airport.  Should demographic changes result in lots of people wanting to suddenly fly from A to C, rather than A to B, it's very easy to accommodate that change.  However, a fixed railway, and a VERY expensive ($/mile) one at that could be left high and dry if the demand changes or just moves away.

 The UK is proof of this, as the rapid boom in railway expansion in the mid 1800's (the so called Railway Mania  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_Mania ) led to massive building of intrastruture, that was later abandoned when the demand disappeared.

Increasingly, thanks to fast networking (optical fibre internet) people no longer actually need to physically travel between places at high speed, and  i can' t see that changing?
 

Offline Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 9499
  • Country: au
Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #153 on: October 07, 2016, 01:14:04 pm »
Thing is, if you build an aeroplane, it can land at any airport.  Should demographic changes result in lots of people wanting to suddenly fly from A to C, rather than A to B, it's very easy to accommodate that change.

Between Sydney and Melbourne, I can't see that being a problem.  The only likelihood is people not wanting to get off at Canberra - so you could just close the station and trains simply express through it.  I think I can say this safely ... people from Sydney and Melbourne wouldn't mind.

Might make for a useful venue, however - if we put a politician or two on the tracks ...  >:D
 
The following users thanked this post: josecamoessilva

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30304
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #154 on: October 07, 2016, 01:18:53 pm »
Might make for a useful venue, however - if we put a politician or two on the tracks ...  >:D

Tickets would sell out just for that!
 
The following users thanked this post: josecamoessilva

Offline Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 9499
  • Country: au
Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #155 on: October 07, 2016, 01:22:56 pm »
We could even invite our American friends to join in .... Hilary and/or Donald, maybe?
 

Online David Hess

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10331
  • Country: us
  • DavidH
Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #156 on: October 07, 2016, 02:58:08 pm »
We could even invite our American friends to join in .... Hilary and/or Donald, maybe?

Americans think big so all of Congress.
 

Offline Corporate666

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2004
  • Country: us
  • Remember, you are unique, just like everybody else
Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #157 on: October 07, 2016, 09:46:34 pm »

The commercial Hyperloop is never going to happen, guaranteed by the laws of practical real world engineering. I'll happily take a bet on it.

The people (I'm mostly referring to Thunderfoot) who have been shitting on the idea haven't actually demonstrated that there are insurmountable problems.  Most of what I have seen him bringing up are overblown criticisms or intellectually dishonestly presented objections. 

With your solar roadways video, you DID present "back of the envelope" calculations that showed it can't work.  We know what solar panels can produce in the best case scenario.  We know how much light is required for daytime visibility.  We can reasonably accurately estimate what it would cost to produce a solar roadways panel.  And based on that, we can confidently say that the claims put forth by the project creators are outright fabrications.

On the other hand, Thunderfoot didn't present any real calculations.  Those that I saw him present were factually false in some cases or misrepresented in others. 

It does a disservice to credible debunking videos like your solar roadways one or the ultrasonic power bullshit thing, or your batterizer video to lump this hyperloop video in with them.  It's not close to being on the same level in terms of facts presented.

Now, it may very well be that the hyperloop never comes to be.  If that happens, it will be because the ROI isn't there.  That is different from solar roadways, batterizer or the ultrasonic power thing.  Solar roadways just won't work - cars won't have traction on glass, it won't allow drivers to see lines which light up and change dynamically based on road conditions - it just won't physically work.  Same with batterizer... it's just a bullshit product that doesn't actually work.  Same with the ultrasonic power thing - simple physics proves it can't work.

Hyperloop is not the same.  The folks saying the costs would be so astronomical as to make it unfeasible haven't actually presented any supporting evidence.  The evidence that has been presented seems to have been largely misunderstood (if one is being kind) by the presenter or presented dishonestly (if one is more cynical).
« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 10:04:08 pm by Corporate666 »
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 

Offline Corporate666

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2004
  • Country: us
  • Remember, you are unique, just like everybody else
Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #158 on: October 07, 2016, 10:00:22 pm »
Thing is, if you build an aeroplane, it can land at any airport.  Should demographic changes result in lots of people wanting to suddenly fly from A to C, rather than A to B, it's very easy to accommodate that change.  However, a fixed railway, and a VERY expensive ($/mile) one at that could be left high and dry if the demand changes or just moves away.

 The UK is proof of this, as the rapid boom in railway expansion in the mid 1800's (the so called Railway Mania  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_Mania ) led to massive building of intrastruture, that was later abandoned when the demand disappeared.

Increasingly, thanks to fast networking (optical fibre internet) people no longer actually need to physically travel between places at high speed, and  i can' t see that changing?

I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly and thought it was so obvious it didn't need to be said, until I tried the high speed train around here.

If I fly from Boston to NYC, I get to the airport an hour early.  I deal with security and all that BS and I have the problem of not being able to bring liquids (a hassle for toiletries).  I land an hour after takeoff, but I am still an hour outside of Manhattan if traffic is light.  If it's not, add 1.5 hours.  Even if I take the subway, it's still an hour.   Then I have to do the reverse on the return journey - it's a huge hassle.  And it's also a pain in the ass if I want to change my flight time.

With the train, I show up and literally walk right on the train.  I can get there 2 minutes before it departs.  It departs on time right to the minute, and it arrives exactly 3 hours and 26 minutes later in 34th street in Manhattan regardless of traffic.  I grab my bag and walk off the train and I'm in downtown NYC.  I can bring whatever I want on the train - no liquids ban.  I have high speed internet, I can spread out in a big chair with a table.  I can get a sandwich, have a beer, use my cell phone, whatever.  I used to think Amtrak were crazy to charge more than I can get a round trip airline ticket for, but now I would always choose the train over plane any day.  That's why it has taken 70% market share from the airlines. 

Sure, it's less flexible in terms of cost of building and changing the route - but Boston and New York City aren't going anywhere, and from the customer point of view, the cost to build it are immaterial - all that matters is cost, convenience, time and experience.   Amtrak is expanding their network and gobbling up additional market share in the North East corridor (Boston/New York City/Washington/Philadelphia).  It won't work in many places, but in the places it does work, I think the up-front cost could be worth it. 

Another thing about hyperloop - if it ever comes to pass - is it would also be useful (maybe even start off being used) for freight.  There are a HUGE number of freight shipments into NYC.  A 30-minute courier service between Boston-NYC would be valuable.  I've often thought that some sort of constantly moving tunnel-based high-speed conveyor belt or small-diameter mini-subway system would be great for big population centers.  It would reduce traffic and congestion, allow cheaper and faster ingress and egress of freight and be reliable and fast.  And without carrying people, the regulatory and maintenance requirements would have to be a lot looser.
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 

Offline stj

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2156
  • Country: gb
Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #159 on: October 07, 2016, 10:30:41 pm »
about that symbolic crap you go through at the airport - the control-freaks want to phase it in at railway stations - followed by bus terminals.

the sooner they get put someplace safe - like under some dirt, the better.
 

Offline dansan

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 11
  • Country: us
Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #160 on: October 18, 2016, 09:36:08 am »
Almost any engineering problem can be solved if you throw enough money at it.  So, of course, the technical issues of hyperloop are really economic issues.  I think one of the biggest wildcards in the economics of high-speed, medium distance, intercity transport in general is self-driving cars.  Lots of people assume that, as airports and freeways get clogged with traffic, that the trend will be toward solutions like hyperloop, maglev, or traditional high-speed trains.  But what if it's not?  Maybe people will gravitate toward low- to medium-speed overnight trips in self-driving cars.  If you're sleeping during the trip, you are less concerned about how long it takes to get there.  There's also the added economic incentive of saving the cost of a night or two in a hotel room.
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30304
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #161 on: October 18, 2016, 10:18:23 am »
Hyperloop is not the same.

It's a bloody 500km long highly evacuated 3m wide tunnel with a capsule traveling at 1000kmh that needs to work at scale, and at capacity with the utmost reliability with one tunnel each way for the entire project.
If that doesn't instantly set off your engineering impracticality radar then I think you need to go in for a recalibration.

Hyperloop is worse than Solar Roadways, Batterieser, Ubeam etc because it's an all or nothing massive scale public transport infrastructure carrying humans. One catastrophic failure scuttles the whole project.
At least the others can work in limited scenarios, and actually could be a moderately successful niche products if pivoted right.
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30304
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #162 on: October 18, 2016, 10:19:58 am »
I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly and thought it was so obvious it didn't need to be said, until I tried the high speed train around here.
If I fly from Boston to NYC, I get to the airport an hour early.  I deal with security and all that BS and I have the problem of not being able to bring liquids (a hassle for toiletries).  I land an hour after takeoff, but I am still an hour outside of Manhattan if traffic is light.  If it's not, add 1.5 hours.  Even if I take the subway, it's still an hour.   Then I have to do the reverse on the return journey - it's a huge hassle.  And it's also a pain in the ass if I want to change my flight time.
With the train, I show up and literally walk right on the train.  I can get there 2 minutes before it departs.  It departs on time right to the minute, and it arrives exactly 3 hours and 26 minutes later in 34th street in Manhattan regardless of traffic.  I grab my bag and walk off the train and I'm in downtown NYC.  I can bring whatever I want on the train - no liquids ban.  I have high speed internet, I can spread out in a big chair with a table.  I can get a sandwich, have a beer, use my cell phone, whatever.  I used to think Amtrak were crazy to charge more than I can get a round trip airline ticket for, but now I would always choose the train over plane any day.  That's why it has taken 70% market share from the airlines. 

Interesting, I didn't know there were any train routes in the US that were actually taking market share away from planes.
 

Offline StuUK

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 388
  • Country: gb
Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #163 on: October 18, 2016, 11:05:37 am »

on-topic, the only MAGLEV I've been on was the one at Birmingham International (gone now I think) and it left alot to be desired !

Maglev was closed in 1995 due to cost of maintenance and availability of parts.....
 

Online wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 10626
  • Country: lv
Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #164 on: October 18, 2016, 11:19:23 am »

on-topic, the only MAGLEV I've been on was the one at Birmingham International (gone now I think) and it left alot to be desired !

Maglev was closed in 1995 due to cost of maintenance and availability of parts.....
And works in China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Maglev_Train


« Last Edit: October 18, 2016, 11:26:32 am by wraper »
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30304
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #165 on: October 18, 2016, 01:36:38 pm »
 

Offline SimonWasAnEngineer

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 17
  • Country: de
Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #166 on: October 21, 2016, 06:27:07 am »
And works in China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Maglev_Train

I've been on that, it's awesome  :-+

The last prototype that was used on the test track here in northern Germany is up for auction at the moment. Its the same type as the one in Shanghai.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/the-futures-for-sale-germany-auctions-maglev-train/articleshow/54794667.cms
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30304
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #167 on: October 26, 2016, 10:46:26 pm »
A new hype video:


This contains so much BS and rhetoric I don't know were to begin.
 

Offline Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 9499
  • Country: au
Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #168 on: October 26, 2016, 11:42:08 pm »
If they're planning to really build it - then this is the place where money isn't going to be as constraining as it would be in the rest of the world....
 

Online wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 10626
  • Country: lv
Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #169 on: November 02, 2016, 11:55:10 pm »
BTW Japanese are testing their SCMaglev (Superconducting Maglev, onboard magnets cooled with liquid helium to -269oC) which tested up to 603 km/h, and they are riding oridinary people at 500 km/h. Moreover tickets will cost only a little bit more that current Shinkansen. Also this is not going to be some just short line (current test line is 42.8 km), but ~500km from Osaka to Tokyo.
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30304
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #170 on: November 03, 2016, 01:01:35 am »
BTW Japanese are testing their SCMaglev (Superconducting Maglev, onboard magnets cooled with liquid helium to -269oC) which tested up to 603 km/h, and they are riding oridinary people at 500 km/h. Moreover tickets will cost only a little bit more that current Shinkansen. Also this is not going to be some just short line (current test line is 42.8 km), but ~500km from Osaka to Tokyo.

And that's the thing. The Hyperloop is orders of magnitude more engineering complexity and risk, for what, double the speed?
Not going to happen.
 

Offline Gazza2

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 8
  • Country: au
Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #171 on: November 03, 2016, 06:55:14 am »
Anybody who went to expo 88 in Brisbane will remember the "Scram jet" powered commercial aircraft that were going to revolutionise the way we travelled in the future. They had a large exhibit full of impressive pictures, models and stats such as travelling to New York from Sydney in about 3 hrs, Sydney to Melbourne in 15 minutes or something ridiculous like that by flying into space and following a ballistic trajectory just like nukes do. I vaguely remember it being called the Hyperjet or something similar as it would fly at hypersonic speed. It was only 5 to 10 years away and would be the only way we travelled by the year 2000. All it needed was gob loads of money for the engineers to sort out the technical details of the scram jet. There was a show on abc at the time called "Towards 2000" and they expounded its virtues and technical difficulties on several shows. 10 years later the show was now called "Beyond 2000" and they were still saying it was only 10 years away and reported on the advances made to create a real working scram jet. The show became "Quantum" and they were saying the scram jet was basically ready to go and just needed a little bit more work to be done to figure out the technical aspects. Today engineers and scientists have made huge leaps but still haven't managed to develop the scramjet beyond experimental status, which was the only teeny tiny technical detail that needed to be sorted out to begin with. "Quantum" is now "Catylist" and this week the abc announced it planned to fire the entire science team before thinking about the shows future. This has nothing to do with thread but I thought that coincidence is pretty funny :-DD This is what the Hyperloop fans are in for. But chin up hyper speed travel fans, the Hyperjet should be here within the next 10 years..... >:D
 

Offline Barny

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 288
  • Country: at
  • I'm from Austria, not Australia ;)
Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #172 on: November 19, 2016, 12:48:42 pm »
Good news everyone.

The Hyper-Loop comercial is now available at Amazon Prime Video.
(At last on the european part)

https://www.amazon.de/Hyperloop-Explained-OV-Kelby-Weiler/dp/B01FIK7X6K/
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30304
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #173 on: August 03, 2017, 01:33:24 am »
They didn't even mention the most important and hardest part, and the one that will ultimately doom this concept. The vacuum  :palm:



 

Offline BroMarduk

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 49
  • Country: us
Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #174 on: August 03, 2017, 04:16:18 am »
Hmm...they did mention the vacuum at 15 seconds in and mention "almost all the air sucked out" around 00:43.   Not saying it solves all the problems...
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf