Author Topic: The Hyperloop: BUSTED  (Read 78935 times)

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Online coppice

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #400 on: August 23, 2019, 01:34:32 pm »
That is the problem with high speed train connections. Add too many stations and the travel time will go up quickly. I see it here too. High speed train between Amsterdam and Brussels (IIRC). Some cities where it passed demanded it stopped there too. But it kinda defeats the purpose. High speed trains need to operate like airplanes which travel distances over 300km. Otherwise a car or regular trains are usually quicker.
China have a similar problem too, but there is a solution: HSR stations that can be passed at speed. When a CRH train passes a station, it just speeds through at 350-380kph. The running lines never have a platform next to it, except at major stations where all trains must stop at anyway. China Railways also engineered high speed switches that can tolerate 400-450kph straight and 250kph side for use in those passable stations.

I was once on a platform waiting for another train when a train speeds through at 350kph on the second line from the platform. It is loud and a bit scary to be honest.
In some places those platform track/non-platform track arrangements are used as passing places. They time the slower train to be at the platform as a faster train passes straight through and overtakes.

 

Online EEVblog

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #401 on: August 23, 2019, 02:12:44 pm »
I was once on a platform waiting for another train when a train speeds through at 350kph on the second line from the platform. It is loud and a bit scary to be honest.

On the Shanghai Maglev the two trains pass each other at 430kmh, it's as scary as you think it is.
 

Offline boffin

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #402 on: August 23, 2019, 05:13:06 pm »
I was once on a platform waiting for another train when a train speeds through at 350kph on the second line from the platform. It is loud and a bit scary to be honest.

Even at slower speeds, a fast train is an amazing amount of mass travelling with a mind-boggling amount of inertia.

I can remember standing on the platform at Reading (west of London), and there were announcements to stand back because the HS125 was passing through @ 125mph / 200kmph.  I saw it pick up someone's briefcase and hurl it down the platform from the suction; still fresh in my mind.
 

Online coppice

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #403 on: August 23, 2019, 07:17:18 pm »
I was once on a platform waiting for another train when a train speeds through at 350kph on the second line from the platform. It is loud and a bit scary to be honest.

On the Shanghai Maglev the two trains pass each other at 430kmh, it's as scary as you think it is.
They pass each other at 860km/h, since each is travelling at 430km/h. The trains pass each other very calmly. Its the steep banking on the curves that disconcerts most people.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #404 on: August 23, 2019, 07:38:23 pm »
That is the problem with high speed train connections. Add too many stations and the travel time will go up quickly. I see it here too. High speed train between Amsterdam and Brussels (IIRC). Some cities where it passed demanded it stopped there too. But it kinda defeats the purpose. High speed trains need to operate like airplanes which travel distances over 300km. Otherwise a car or regular trains are usually quicker.
China have a similar problem too, but there is a solution: HSR stations that can be passed at speed. When a CRH train passes a station, it just speeds through at 350-380kph. The running lines never have a platform next to it, except at major stations where all trains must stop at anyway.
That is the common solution to have high speed and low speed trains use the same track but that wasn't my point. My point is that people are inclined to demand high speed trains stop at everyone's doorstep and don't see that that slows the train down to snail speed. Public transport is simple: it takes you from a place where you aren't to a place where you don't need to be.
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #405 on: August 23, 2019, 07:50:14 pm »
Public transport is simple: it takes you from a place where you aren't to a place where you don't need to be.

I like this one. ;D

 

Offline technix

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #406 on: August 24, 2019, 05:40:01 am »
That is the common solution to have high speed and low speed trains use the same track but that wasn't my point. My point is that people are inclined to demand high speed trains stop at everyone's doorstep and don't see that that slows the train down to snail speed.
For each HSR line, there is a formula between the scale of economy and/or population in the area the station services, and the maximum amount of stopping trains at that station. This means that at the planning stage that demand is already capped.
 

Offline soldar

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #407 on: August 24, 2019, 06:16:33 am »
That is the problem with high speed train connections. Add too many stations and the travel time will go up quickly.
There is an idea of having trains not stop but having cars that accelerate and decelerate passengers to train speed.
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Online Bud

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #408 on: August 24, 2019, 06:21:05 am »
please tell me this was not Musk's idea  :D
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Offline soldar

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #409 on: August 24, 2019, 09:53:10 am »
I can see having the last car released at speed and slowed down to a stop on a side track.

And I can see another car speeding up and catching up with the train and then hooking up.

This could be repeated n times along the way.

Car catches up and hooks up to train. Passengers move forward into other forward cars. Passengers alighting at next station move back into last car which will be released and a new car will catch up. This process can be repeated along the way and the main train need never stop.
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Online nctnico

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #410 on: August 24, 2019, 10:11:23 am »
I can see having the last car released at speed and slowed down to a stop on a side track.

And I can see another car speeding up and catching up with the train and then hooking up.

This could be repeated n times along the way.

Car catches up and hooks up to train. Passengers move forward into other forward cars. Passengers alighting at next station move back into last car which will be released and a new car will catch up. This process can be repeated along the way and the main train need never stop.
The problem is that there isn't enough room in a typical train for that many people to move. Especially when they travel with luggage.
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Offline soldar

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #411 on: August 24, 2019, 10:33:22 am »
"Typical train"? This is not a typical train! This is a train that I invented and it is designed with the concept in mind. I cannot see the problem. People move between train cars all the time.

"That many people"? How many people is "that many"? Suppose the accessory cars can handle a certain fraction of the total train capacity, say 1/10th, whatever, so when capacity is reached for a certain destination you stop selling tickets for that destination. You know, like it's always been done. And how is having a limited capacity for destination X not better than zero capacity because the train does not stop there?

The only reason I can see for not wanting to allow boarding and alighting in intermediate stations is if the train can be filled with passengers from end to end. Then you would want to have additional trains to/from/between intermediate stations.

A train from Hong Kong to Peking with six intermediate stops of 15 minutes each will be adding 90 minutes stoppage plus accelerating and decelerating time. A train that does not stop gains all that lost time.

The notion that the problem to be resolved is moving passengers between cars.... I don't know, maybe I am missing something.
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Online nctnico

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #412 on: August 24, 2019, 11:22:01 am »
I think you don't use the train that often. Try to move from cart to cart when the train is full. Getting to the door a few meters away is already a challenge.
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Online coppice

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #413 on: August 24, 2019, 11:37:47 am »
please tell me this was not Musk's idea  :D
Not unless Musk is about 100 years older than he looks. The idea of using feeders trains is old. Also, the idea of reasonably quick powered pedestrian walkways, using several side by side walkways, each 2 or 3kph faster than the next, is old.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #414 on: August 24, 2019, 12:09:04 pm »
please tell me this was not Musk's idea  :D
Not unless Musk is about 100 years older than he looks. The idea of using feeders trains is old. Also, the idea of reasonably quick powered pedestrian walkways, using several side by side walkways, each 2 or 3kph faster than the next, is old.
But that doesn't say the idea can't be done. In some French cities you'll find trams fed from a center track. That idea has been invented over 100 years ago as well.
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Offline soldar

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #415 on: August 24, 2019, 12:10:33 pm »
I think you don't use the train that often. Try to move from cart to cart when the train is full. Getting to the door a few meters away is already a challenge.

I don't know what trains you use and in what country. Sounds like India or Pakistan and, very definitely, not high speed.  I have used what they call "medium speed" trains (>200 Km/h) in China and everybody is seated and the aisles are clear and I have walked the length of the train without any problem. Same thing with high speed trains in Spain. Nobody is standing. We are not talking about the city metro here.

I can super-definitely guarantee there are no passengers standing in the Hong-Kong to Peking high speed train.

Even on regular trains in China there are no "standing tickets". Everyone gets a seat. People might be standing if they feel like it but will definitely get out of the way for people who need to move. I have plenty of photos of Chinese trains and have posted a few on this board.

I dunno. Maybe we are talking about different countries.
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Online nctnico

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #416 on: August 24, 2019, 12:19:31 pm »
I think you don't use the train that often. Try to move from cart to cart when the train is full. Getting to the door a few meters away is already a challenge.

I don't know what trains you use and in what country. Sounds like India or Pakistan and, very definitely, not high speed.  I have used what they call "medium speed" trains (>200 Km/h) in China and everybody is seated and the aisles are clear and I have walked the length of the train without any problem. Same thing with high speed trains in Spain. Nobody is standing. We are not talking about the city metro here.
But that works for as long as people enter through the side doors and have a reserved seat. In case of selling tickets without reserved seats people may have to stand. Also if you are going to attach / detach carts from the back or front of the train (which is more likely a scenario with unreserved seats) you'll get a lot of traffic inside the train in opposite directions anyway.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 12:21:02 pm by nctnico »
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Online coppice

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #417 on: August 24, 2019, 12:27:16 pm »
I think you don't use the train that often. Try to move from cart to cart when the train is full. Getting to the door a few meters away is already a challenge.

I don't know what trains you use and in what country. Sounds like India or Pakistan and, very definitely, not high speed.  I have used what they call "medium speed" trains (>200 Km/h) in China and everybody is seated and the aisles are clear and I have walked the length of the train without any problem. Same thing with high speed trains in Spain. Nobody is standing. We are not talking about the city metro here.

I can super-definitely guarantee there are no passengers standing in the Hong-Kong to Peking high speed train.

Even on regular trains in China there are no "standing tickets". Everyone gets a seat. People might be standing if they feel like it but will definitely get out of the way for people who need to move. I have plenty of photos of Chinese trains and have posted a few on this board.

I dunno. Maybe we are talking about different countries.
There is no standing on the bullet trains in China. However, I've stood a few times on other trains in China at busy times, when I didn't want to wait for the following train. It usually only at busy times when you need to stand, though.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #418 on: August 24, 2019, 01:30:38 pm »
please tell me this was not Musk's idea  :D

I wonder what could go wrong with this really...
 :-DD
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #419 on: August 24, 2019, 02:27:43 pm »
Perhaps large strong nets could be used to get passengers on and off the non-stopping train.
https://youtu.be/0EGQWAZghaM?t=43
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Online coppice

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #420 on: August 24, 2019, 02:42:23 pm »
Perhaps large strong nets could be used to get passengers on and off the non-stopping train.
https://youtu.be/0EGQWAZghaM?t=43
Excellent idea. Just find the right net when you reach the station, and relax. You can't miss the train if you fall sleep.  :)
 

Offline soldar

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #421 on: August 24, 2019, 02:42:52 pm »
But that works for as long as people enter through the side doors and have a reserved seat. In case of selling tickets without reserved seats people may have to stand. Also if you are going to attach / detach carts from the back or front of the train (which is more likely a scenario with unreserved seats) you'll get a lot of traffic inside the train in opposite directions anyway.

Again, where is this country where high speed trains sell standing space? I have never seen it of heard of anything like it. In China and in Spain riding the high speed train is more like an airport experience. You need a reserved seat just to get through security and there is no such thing as 'tickets without reserved seats".

And, of course, if this were a problem, all you need to do is not sell standing space and the problem goes away. But since they do not do this anyway the problem does not exist.

Again, where have you seen passengers with standing tickets on high speed trains? Do they allow standing passengers on airplanes as well?

I have not seen standing tickets sold for long haul destinations in Spain pretty much since I have memory. Maybe short haul but definitely not long haul. And in China I have also been told no tickets were available for long haul trains. I would have stood all night if necessary but was told not possible. Maybe it is different on other trains with shorter itineraries and daytime routes.

I am baffled by the notion that is it difficult or impossible for passengers to move up and down the aisles because it is done all the time. People move when they are getting on or off or getting ready to get off even if the train is still moving, or they want to go to the lavatory, or they are bored and want to stretch their legs. I have never seen anyone who could not move about the train.

I suppose you could make the case that someone on a wheelchair or other special needs might have difficulty moving about the aisles but that is just as true today whether the last car is going to be disengaged or not.

Maybe I am missing something but I just do not see the problem.

« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 03:08:51 pm by soldar »
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Offline technix

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #422 on: August 24, 2019, 04:41:36 pm »
There is no standing on the bullet trains in China. However, I've stood a few times on other trains in China at busy times, when I didn't want to wait for the following train. It usually only at busy times when you need to stand, though.
There is standing on China HSR trains regardless of distance, but it is only available when it is exceptionally busy. Technically you also have a reserved "seat," but it is called "you are allowed to take the train but you have to stand."

please tell me this was not Musk's idea  :D
Well I would say that Musk was on to something with the Boring Company. However running automated cars in tunnels might not be the best idea. Boring Company tunnels have almost exactly the same dimensions as London deep-level tube tunnels. So if his projects are supposed to be public transit systems, it is better to lay tracks in there and run Tube trains through it.
 

Online coppice

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #423 on: August 24, 2019, 04:59:15 pm »
Well I would say that Musk was on to something with the Boring Company. However running automated cars in tunnels might not be the best idea. Boring Company tunnels have almost exactly the same dimensions as London deep-level tube tunnels. So if his projects are supposed to be public transit systems, it is better to lay tracks in there and run Tube trains through it.
The Boring Company has not brought any innovation to its tunnel building techniques. They use conventional TBMs to build their tunnels, just like anyone else. Their innovation is in what they intend do with the tunnels. If they put conventional trains through the tunnels they would have nothing new to bring to the market at all.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #424 on: August 24, 2019, 06:16:51 pm »
I'd say the Boring Company has lived up to its name so far. ;D

But hey, why not put people directly in those tunnels and just use high air pressure to move them from one point to another? No need for a car. :-DD
 


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