Author Topic: The Hyperloop: BUSTED  (Read 80638 times)

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Online nctnico

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #475 on: November 03, 2019, 02:59:11 pm »
What about the judges, there's a form of collective stupidity.
The judges are all very clever people, none of them wants to be the first to say "Hang on, I don't understand this, it makes no 'king sense to me", so it all gets passed as a brilliant idea, with each judge individually thinking it's just him/her that doesn't have a clue, until it's too late. :)

Well, it could be that this was indeed the best idea presented and all other entries were worse.
Hmm... 'Even in the world of losers there is a winner.'
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #476 on: November 03, 2019, 03:09:20 pm »
Well, it could be that this was indeed the best idea presented and all other entries were worse.

It's more than 100% useless, I can't think what the others would have been.
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Offline Buriedcode

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #477 on: November 03, 2019, 04:56:20 pm »
Normally I enjoy criticism, but aren't we being a bit harsh to a 13-year-old? Of course the idea doesn't really solve any problems, but the fact she got recognition and praise isn't her fault, its the media and people jumping on the bandwagon (as deadbeef pointed out, people love a good "underdog" story). 

Also I don't see how it reflects that she was taught bad physics.  As we all know in this thread, it isn't about "doing the impossible", its just impractical and doesn't improve upon current systems.

What do kind of analysis do you expect a 13-year-old to do to indicate efficacy?  Calculating air friction losses, and the energy requirements for a pneumatic system and and the start-stop of transport is not exactly what I would consider 8th grade stuff, sure there can be some calculations but it would end up with so many simplified assumptions as to be worthless (like the analysis of the original hyperloop!).

Also, anyone who likes these kinds of underdog stories is going to read this thread and see "ha! its impossible, she's a fool!" and think "why would people enjoy laughing at a child?".  It just ends up making people distrust engineers/scientists even more.  The fact you're right doesn't matter, but being smug will make joe-public ignore your opinions.

 

Online coppice

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #478 on: November 03, 2019, 05:17:08 pm »
Normally I enjoy criticism, but aren't we being a bit harsh to a 13-year-old? Of course the idea doesn't really solve any problems, but the fact she got recognition and praise isn't her fault, its the media and people jumping on the bandwagon (as deadbeef pointed out, people love a good "underdog" story). 

Also I don't see how it reflects that she was taught bad physics.  As we all know in this thread, it isn't about "doing the impossible", its just impractical and doesn't improve upon current systems.

What do kind of analysis do you expect a 13-year-old to do to indicate efficacy?  Calculating air friction losses, and the energy requirements for a pneumatic system and and the start-stop of transport is not exactly what I would consider 8th grade stuff, sure there can be some calculations but it would end up with so many simplified assumptions as to be worthless (like the analysis of the original hyperloop!).

Also, anyone who likes these kinds of underdog stories is going to read this thread and see "ha! its impossible, she's a fool!" and think "why would people enjoy laughing at a child?".  It just ends up making people distrust engineers/scientists even more.  The fact you're right doesn't matter, but being smug will make joe-public ignore your opinions.
We are talking about a 13 year old, not a 3 year old. At 13 most people haven't studied much physics, but their common sense is pretty well developed. Smart 13 year olds come up with all sorts of clever ideas, often ones that take some pretty advanced knowledge to see a flaw in. Its hard to imagine that only one person proposed a more interesting idea than this. I suspect dumb or partisan judges.
 

Offline soldar

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #479 on: November 03, 2019, 05:50:23 pm »
I already said she is not at fault and it is the incompetence of the adults around her, including the media.
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Online wraper

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #480 on: November 03, 2019, 06:14:53 pm »
Quote
and drag the train in the vacuum tunnel with the first train by magnetic coupling

I am failing to grasp the problem which this solves.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_(physics) Have you ever been in subway when train is nearing and you feel how air is pushed out of the tube? Once you are past certain speed, most of energy is spent on overtaking the drag. And in the tube it becomes much worse since there is a very little space for air to go. So even if you have MagLev (no friction with rails), drag is still the same.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2019, 06:17:40 pm by wraper »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #481 on: November 03, 2019, 06:49:30 pm »
Quote
and drag the train in the vacuum tunnel with the first train by magnetic coupling

I am failing to grasp the problem which this solves.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_(physics) Have you ever been in subway when train is nearing and you feel how air is pushed out of the tube? Once you are past certain speed, most of energy is spent on overtaking the drag. And in the tube it becomes much worse since there is a very little space for air to go. So even if you have MagLev (no friction with rails), drag is still the same.
Which is why they want the hyperloop to operate in a near vacuum. Technically it makes sense to reduce/remove the air fricition. Whether it is worth the investment depends on whether it is cheaper to operate compared to methods of transportation which already exist (which in turn where also greated by great sceptisism). BTW the idea with the magnet I've seen works the other way around. The magnet is moved outside the vacuum tube and drags a carriage along which is inside the vacuum tube.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #482 on: November 03, 2019, 07:32:11 pm »
The winner  "formulated a nano particle liquid bandage", if only CC had said the tube was made of a graphene material she'd have won. >:D

According to this the idea was nothing to do with Hyperloopy, cnn has just made that up.
https://www.youngscientistlab.com/competition/video_challenge/archives/2019?award=winner

It's still daft and easier to power the train through the tracks.
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline soldar

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #483 on: November 03, 2019, 07:45:59 pm »
I saw her presentation and she is not going to be an engineer but a politician. She uses all the buzzwords and generalities without providing any specifics.

Talks about reducing pollution, reducing global warming, etc. All the common cliches. She just needs to add that it will help battered women get away from those evil men.

She is on the right path for politics.
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Online wraper

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #484 on: November 03, 2019, 07:54:47 pm »
Quote
and drag the train in the vacuum tunnel with the first train by magnetic coupling
I am failing to grasp the problem which this solves.

It attempts to solves the death trap that is Elon Musk's humans in a vacuum hyperloop. Which in itself didn't solve anything. it's turtles all the way down.
Then you should call airplanes death traps as well. At their cruise altitude they fly in near vacuum (~20% of sea level air pressure) as far as human organism or cabin strength is concerned. Going by 0.2 atmospheres lower does not make much difference. People think that vacuum is something extraordinary. But such vacuum capsule would experience only a little bit more pressure difference compared to usual passenger airplane. So capsule strength needed is about the same. Going from sea level pressure to absolute vacuum is only 1 atm or Bar. When you think about many pressurized systems which exist, it's nothing. For example hydrogen tank in Toyota Mirai is at about 700 Bar pressure and located under back seat  :). It makes no difference if you put it under vacuum or sea level air pressure. 701 vs 700 Bar pressure difference to endure. Fill it by 1% less, and even under vacuum it will experience less stress than normally.

« Last Edit: November 03, 2019, 08:00:49 pm by wraper »
 
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #485 on: November 04, 2019, 01:14:25 am »
Normally I enjoy criticism, but aren't we being a bit harsh to a 13-year-old? Of course the idea doesn't really solve any problems, but the fact she got recognition and praise isn't her fault, its the media and people jumping on the bandwagon (as deadbeef pointed out, people love a good "underdog" story). 

Also I don't see how it reflects that she was taught bad physics.  As we all know in this thread, it isn't about "doing the impossible", its just impractical and doesn't improve upon current systems.p

What do kind of analysis do you expect a 13-year-old to do to indicate efficacy?  Calculating air friction losses, and the energy requirements for a pneumatic system and and the start-stop of transport is not exactly what I would consider 8th grade stuff, sure there can be some calculations but it would end up with so many simplified assumptions as to be worthless (like the analysis of the original hyperloop!).
I'm pretty sure that when I was 13, I would have been able to point out the problems with her idea-----but I was a horrible little Geek
(I normalised with age).

Kids these days do not have the "hands-on" experience of the real world which was much more common in earlier generations.
At 13, I had helped in the rebuild of a car engine, assisted in the repair of a synchromesh gearbox, & had a working knowledge of the 4 stroke I.C. engine "Otto Cycle".

They don't read as much, either.

How many 9 year olds would know what a "Beche de Mer" was?(It's another name for Trepang  or "sea cucumber")
How about a "Mudskipper"?, Or a "Nudibranch"?
(I was seriously Geeky at that age!)

Quote
Also, anyone who likes these kinds of underdog stories is going to read this thread and see "ha! its impossible, she's a fool!" and think "why would people enjoy laughing at a child?".  It just ends up making people distrust engineers/scientists even more.  The fact you're right doesn't matter, but being smug will make joe-public ignore your opinions.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #486 on: November 04, 2019, 02:15:48 am »
 

Offline maginnovision

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #487 on: November 04, 2019, 02:32:54 am »
It's very possible the "mentor" was in charge of this ridiculousness.
 

Offline Bud

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #488 on: November 04, 2019, 02:43:07 am »
Seems Musk has a resident shill at CNN  :D
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Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #489 on: November 04, 2019, 02:49:06 am »
You may as well take the energy used for the pneumatic system and put it straight on the train.   The main issue with a high speed train in the open is the possibility of derailment and fact that it's just open to the environment.  Wild life etc can cause big issues.

I think a compromise for the hyperloop would be to have a tunnel (under or above ground does not matter) that makes a literal loop, maybe one per province, and it covers all the major geographical locations, and has stations that are evenly spaced.  All trains would depart and stop roughly at the same time.  That way each train just pushes air while the next one pulls air.  There's obviously still going to be a lot of static pressure, but it would probably be half decently efficient vs if they all stop at different times.  There could be various air vents too, that would be an engineering feet to some degree to design them effectively while ensuring nothing can get in, but it's doable.  But either way having them all take off/arrive at once means they never have to stop for others.    The train itself does not matter too much how it's designed (rails, wheels all around the tube, maglev etc) but the idea is with the tunnel you can travel at a relatively fast and constant speed without risking hitting anything.  It would probably be cheaper to operate than an airline, so it would ideally be cheaper to travel on than an airline (at least that would be the point, it needs to be affordable to use).  So what would take you say, 8 hours to drive, you could do in maybe 4 with this train.  It would essentially be an alternate way to travel far while being cheaper than flying.   Not sure how sound my idea really is though but it does sound more reasonable than some of these ideas.  Sometimes you need to compromise instead of going for crazy stuff.  Say the real hyperloop is built and works, how much would it cost to maintain and cost for passengers vs flying? Probably a lot.  If it's the same price or more expensive then people are just going to fly.   I think if anyone wants to "revolutionize" travel, it needs to be a system that fits right between driving and flying in terms of speed and cost. 
« Last Edit: November 04, 2019, 02:51:17 am by Red Squirrel »
 

Online splin

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #490 on: November 04, 2019, 04:21:02 am »
Anybody who has any interest in maglev should watch Professor Eric Laithwaite's seminal demonstrations from the early 70's:



There are plenty of other youtube videos of his demonstrations which are well worth watching - if only for the fashion influences on his assistant!

It was his Royal Institution lectures on his work on linear motors, which lead to maglev trains, which inspired me into engineering. It was tragic that his ideas on the fundamentals of gyroscopes so damaged his reputation.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #491 on: November 04, 2019, 05:12:24 am »
It's this:
Good luck getting it working at 500-1000km/h over hundreds of km with a full load.

 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #492 on: November 05, 2019, 09:59:40 am »
According to this the idea was nothing to do with Hyperloopy, cnn has just made that up.
https://www.youngscientistlab.com/competition/video_challenge/archives/2019?award=winner

No, it's in the CNN article, they interviewed her and used several quote where she mentions Hyperloop. Unless you want to say that CNN made up the quotes?
 

Online BrianHG

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #493 on: November 05, 2019, 11:26:16 am »
Hyperloop Dubai Vision 2020 : Biggest Revolution In Economy & Technology !
 :palm:  WTF, Dubai?  How big is Dubai, around 50 km long by 20 km wide?
And transporting cargo?  You have got to be kidding me.
The point of hyperloop speed is to get people whose time is worth money from point A to point B as fast and cheap as possible.  With a 50km long city, how will the stops be placed?  Will the hyperloop even be able to comfortably accelerate up to above 500km/h between stops?  Say something like 5 of them in the city every 10km, or even shorter.
If it's for parcel delivery, I'll wait the extra 1-2 hours to have it shipped to my door by truck.


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Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #494 on: November 05, 2019, 11:34:47 am »
But politicians love high profile projects in which to spend taxpayers $. Be it useless airports, highways that nobody uses, solar freaking roadways, and such. Now hyperloops too, or so it seems.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2019, 11:36:47 am by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #495 on: November 05, 2019, 12:54:28 pm »
Hyperloop Dubai Vision 2020 : Biggest Revolution In Economy & Technology !
 :palm:  WTF, Dubai?  How big is Dubai, around 50 km long by 20 km wide?
And transporting cargo?  You have got to be kidding me.

I think its to Abu Dhabi?, so about 150km

Quote
The point of hyperloop speed is to get people whose time is worth money from point A to point B as fast and cheap as possible.  With a 50km long city, how will the stops be placed?  Will the hyperloop even be able to comfortably accelerate up to above 500km/h between stops?  Say something like 5 of them in the city every 10km, or even shorter.

Yes, it's pointless for short trips, only city-city direct.

Quote


That's some fine rendered wankery!
 

Online coppice

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #496 on: November 05, 2019, 06:59:07 pm »
According to this the idea was nothing to do with Hyperloopy, cnn has just made that up.
https://www.youngscientistlab.com/competition/video_challenge/archives/2019?award=winner

No, it's in the CNN article, they interviewed her and used several quote where she mentions Hyperloop. Unless you want to say that CNN made up the quotes?
In the video at youndscientistlab she spends far more time talking about how bad cars are than talking about her idea. However, she does say her idea is based on compressed air, and not a vacuum like hyperloop.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #497 on: November 05, 2019, 07:35:09 pm »
In the video at youndscientistlab she spends far more time talking about how bad cars are than talking about her idea.

And, as some have already noted, it's the main (and possibly only) reason why this got media traction to begin with.
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #498 on: November 06, 2019, 10:02:11 pm »
Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_(physics) Have you ever been in subway when train is nearing and you feel how air is pushed out of the tube?

How does the train being out in the open fix that? I mean, if it could be out in the open they wouldn't need a tube and then have to evacuate it in the first place. AFAICS, there are two reasons for the tube: one being that they can evacuate it and therefore go blindingly fast, and the other being that it is underground to really tricky not to be in a tube. The tube-by-the-side 'solution' is a strange way to deal with those.
 

Online wraper

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Re: The Hyperloop: BUSTED
« Reply #499 on: November 06, 2019, 11:15:20 pm »
Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_(physics) Have you ever been in subway when train is nearing and you feel how air is pushed out of the tube?

How does the train being out in the open fix that?
Simple. Air can go sideways.  Not pushed all the way through the tube in front of train and some of it passing through the gap between tube and train.
 


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