Author Topic: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights  (Read 30390 times)

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Online joeqsmith

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #125 on: July 05, 2020, 08:09:04 pm »
:-DD  Years ago I wrote how I was using Wireshark and saw were even pressing a number key on the MS calculator causes the OS to send the data up to MS.   

I'm still using a WRT router to block all MS traffic.   To install the BLE software for Dave's 121GW,  I had to pull it from the store.  I let my guard down just long enough for them to push a new update which had additional IPs that had to be accounted for.   I have not changed anything after that.   10 still tries to send data non-stop but at least the PC is usable.

I had been using an old version of Firefox but recently was forced to "upgrade".   I pitched FF and tried Opera for a day,  until I learned it was sold off to China.  Then I tried Vivaldi and ran into problems with it that I wasn't smart enough to sort out.  So now it's back to FF and setting the admin rights to block its updates.    Too bad really as I like Vivaldi.
What's wrong with the modern versions of Firefox?

Like MS, once they started to force updates, my perception is that they made me less productive.  For me, I want my software like like any other tool to be reliable and repeatable. 

In the case of MS, they blue screened my PC a few times and the endless full installs became a real pain.  I have PC connected to our TV and had left it open for all updates.  I may only have 30 minutes to watch something and many times, this was spent doing updates. When I go to turn off the PC, the last thing I want to do is wait a half hour while it updates to make sure they didn't fuck it up.     

FF with their constant patches at one point changed the way the data was presented on my tablet which I run with a touch screen.  That one change to the menus was pretty much the point where I rolled back to an early version that did not require the updates.   This worked fine until recently.   I now have the new version (locked) but  I would have switched to Vivaldi out of frustration, had it worked out of the box. 

Online NiHaoMike

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #126 on: July 05, 2020, 08:36:43 pm »
How much computing resources does it actually take to do a search that's not cached? My understanding is that it's a few orders of magnitude more than what it takes to make the simple query in the first place.

The English dictionary has about 470k words. Obviously, most of those are obscure terms that the majority has never heard of. For simplicity, let's pick 65536 of them to use for making search phrases, a nice binary number that lends itself nicely to efficient implementation. If we allocate 16 bytes per word (for CPU efficient access), that's 1MB of memory needed - it can even fit in the cache of many CPUs.

String just 4 of those words together and the number of possible combinations will be about 1.84 x 10^19 - completely impossible to fully cache. If that's not an impressive enough number for you, consider increasing that to 5 words or more. We can therefore conclude that the vast majority of searches will make actual database lookups and won't be fully cached.

The actual operation of stringing the words together with spaces in between takes so little time on a modern CPU that it's not worth thinking about. Turning that into a HTTP request is also trivial. Then you actually make the requests, something that can take advantage of parallelism.

All in all, it doesn't take much resources to make a lot of requests, I'd be interested to know how it can be possible to make the search itself use a lot less resources than I would expect it to.
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Offline cdev

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #127 on: July 05, 2020, 09:06:02 pm »
Chroimium is even worse.

All of the better known browsers are essentially spyware now.

"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #128 on: July 05, 2020, 09:53:27 pm »
Chroimium is even worse.

All of the better known browsers are essentially spyware now.

At least for the USA as I understand it, the provider is allowed to track and sell the data.  The fear of being tracked is less of a concern as I just assume they are.   I know MS would track everything they could.   It not my goal to address this so much as trying to keep the PC as a stable tool for engineering use.  The latest game simulator and background themes have no value to me.  If the PC is doing what I need it to,  I see no reason to upgrade.  If you are going to force it on me, I will most likely find a work around. 

Rather than trying to use old star trek clips as a fear motivation,  why not present some meaningful metrics?   I did a quick search:

https://www.thedrum.com/news/2019/04/25/brave-will-pay-web-browsers-watch-ads-with-novel-digital-revenue-model
https://www.theblockcrypto.com/linked/67594/braves-browser-has-been-autocompleting-websites-with-referral-codes
https://www.computerworld.com/article/3292619/the-brave-browser-basics-what-it-does-how-it-differs-from-rivals.html

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #129 on: July 05, 2020, 10:12:55 pm »
How much computing resources does it actually take to do a search that's not cached? My understanding is that it's a few orders of magnitude more than what it takes to make the simple query in the first place.

The English dictionary has about 470k words. Obviously, most of those are obscure terms that the majority has never heard of. For simplicity, let's pick 65536 of them to use for making search phrases, a nice binary number that lends itself nicely to efficient implementation. If we allocate 16 bytes per word (for CPU efficient access), that's 1MB of memory needed - it can even fit in the cache of many CPUs.

String just 4 of those words together and the number of possible combinations will be about 1.84 x 10^19 - completely impossible to fully cache. If that's not an impressive enough number for you, consider increasing that to 5 words or more. We can therefore conclude that the vast majority of searches will make actual database lookups and won't be fully cached.

The actual operation of stringing the words together with spaces in between takes so little time on a modern CPU that it's not worth thinking about. Turning that into a HTTP request is also trivial. Then you actually make the requests, something that can take advantage of parallelism.

All in all, it doesn't take much resources to make a lot of requests, I'd be interested to know how it can be possible to make the search itself use a lot less resources than I would expect it to.
You're still trying to come up with a "solution" for a problem you don't remotely understand. What kind of capabilities do you think you are up against? Do some research and try ballparking it and then tell us how feasible gumming something like that up is by a blunt stress attack. This horse must be pulped by now but is obviously requires some more beating.  :horse:

Go run some back-of-the-envelope numbers and then explain to us why that's a silly idea.
 

Online NiHaoMike

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #130 on: July 05, 2020, 10:29:55 pm »
The only part left to make it fail is if doing the search actually takes much less resources than I expect. I'm interested to know exactly how that could be the case, since complete caching is already ruled out. Are they using ASICs or something that really are that efficient at searching?
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #131 on: July 05, 2020, 11:20:11 pm »
:-DD  Years ago I wrote how I was using Wireshark and saw were even pressing a number key on the MS calculator causes the OS to send the data up to MS.   

I'm still using a WRT router to block all MS traffic.   To install the BLE software for Dave's 121GW,  I had to pull it from the store.  I let my guard down just long enough for them to push a new update which had additional IPs that had to be accounted for.   I have not changed anything after that.   10 still tries to send data non-stop but at least the PC is usable.

I had been using an old version of Firefox but recently was forced to "upgrade".   I pitched FF and tried Opera for a day,  until I learned it was sold off to China.  Then I tried Vivaldi and ran into problems with it that I wasn't smart enough to sort out.  So now it's back to FF and setting the admin rights to block its updates.    Too bad really as I like Vivaldi.
What's wrong with the modern versions of Firefox?

Like MS, once they started to force updates, my perception is that they made me less productive.  For me, I want my software like like any other tool to be reliable and repeatable. 

In the case of MS, they blue screened my PC a few times and the endless full installs became a real pain.  I have PC connected to our TV and had left it open for all updates.  I may only have 30 minutes to watch something and many times, this was spent doing updates. When I go to turn off the PC, the last thing I want to do is wait a half hour while it updates to make sure they didn't fuck it up.     

FF with their constant patches at one point changed the way the data was presented on my tablet which I run with a touch screen.  That one change to the menus was pretty much the point where I rolled back to an early version that did not require the updates.   This worked fine until recently.   I now have the new version (locked) but  I would have switched to Vivaldi out of frustration, had it worked out of the box.

I had a cheapo little Win 8 tablet that literally got bricked by a Windows 8 update -  it never recovered!   I spent a couple of hours trying to bring it back, but it ended up being recycled.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #132 on: July 05, 2020, 11:24:29 pm »
Pretty much sums up what I was seeing.
https://forum.vivaldi.net/topic/33633/vivaldi-gets-stuck-on-some-pages-very-slow-like-frozen/82?lang=en-GB&page=5

Looks like its a problem with Chrome.   I have never tried using it. 
https://www.fileinspect.com/blog/fix-slow-connection-caused-by-the-establishing-secure-connection/

Looks like it's been a problem for a very long time.   Firefox stays for now.

I just tried the "problem sites" linked in the first one - didn't see an issue using 3.1.1929.34 (Stable channel) (64-bit).
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #133 on: July 06, 2020, 12:07:36 am »
Pretty much sums up what I was seeing.
https://forum.vivaldi.net/topic/33633/vivaldi-gets-stuck-on-some-pages-very-slow-like-frozen/82?lang=en-GB&page=5

Looks like its a problem with Chrome.   I have never tried using it. 
https://www.fileinspect.com/blog/fix-slow-connection-caused-by-the-establishing-secure-connection/

Looks like it's been a problem for a very long time.   Firefox stays for now.

I just tried the "problem sites" linked in the first one - didn't see an issue using 3.1.1929.34 (Stable channel) (64-bit).

The last update I tried was:
Vivaldi   3.1.1929.34 (Stable channel) (64-bit)
Revision   a3849a97b5fbcc3f22dc813c14e999c7bf13b4f5

I'm not surprised it works for you as if it were very common problem no one would use it.   But again, that doesn't help sorting out the problem.   I thought about opening the network to all traffic but my better judgement steps in.   

Another option may be to run WS and see if they hit any IPs that I have locked.  I would expect if they had specific requirements that it would have been documented. 

It's possible that it's something in the OS but it's odd that only Vivaldi seemed to have a problem.   

*********************

I reinstalled it, and set my homepage to Amazon (known problem site).  The problem persists.     There was an update from the last time I had tried it, so I went ahead and installed it.

Vivaldi   3.1.1929.45 (Stable channel) (64-bit)
Revision   1eb3263017ed42270818939fbff241845938a81f

The problem still persists.  "Establishing secure connection..." "This site can't be reached"  "Too long to respond" 



« Last Edit: July 06, 2020, 12:35:40 am by joeqsmith »
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #134 on: July 06, 2020, 12:38:09 am »
Pretty much sums up what I was seeing.
https://forum.vivaldi.net/topic/33633/vivaldi-gets-stuck-on-some-pages-very-slow-like-frozen/82?lang=en-GB&page=5

Looks like its a problem with Chrome.   I have never tried using it. 
https://www.fileinspect.com/blog/fix-slow-connection-caused-by-the-establishing-secure-connection/

Looks like it's been a problem for a very long time.   Firefox stays for now.

I just tried the "problem sites" linked in the first one - didn't see an issue using 3.1.1929.34 (Stable channel) (64-bit).

The last update I tried was:
Vivaldi   3.1.1929.34 (Stable channel) (64-bit)
Revision   a3849a97b5fbcc3f22dc813c14e999c7bf13b4f5

I'm not surprised it works for you as if it were very common problem no one would use it.   But again, that doesn't help sorting out the problem.   I thought about opening the network to all traffic but my better judgement steps in.   

Another option may be to run WS and see if they hit any IPs that I have locked.  I would expect if they had specific requirements that it would have been documented. 

It's possible that it's something in the OS but it's odd that only Vivaldi seemed to have a problem.   

*********************

I reinstalled it, and set my homepage to Amazon (known problem site).  The problem persists.     There was an update from the last time I had tried it, so I went ahead and installed it.

Vivaldi   3.1.1929.45 (Stable channel) (64-bit)
Revision   1eb3263017ed42270818939fbff241845938a81f

The problem still persists.  "Establishing secure connection..." "This site can't be reached"  "Too long to respond"

I've got the network clamped down reasonably tight, also using DNS over HTTPS to avoid the local cable company throwing ads into random browser sessions...  (b@stards...)

 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #135 on: July 06, 2020, 01:19:45 am »
I've got the network clamped down reasonably tight, also using DNS over HTTPS to avoid the local cable company throwing ads into random browser sessions...  (b@stards...)

Against my better judgement, I bypassed the router.   Started Vivaldi and instantly came up with Amazon.  I then tried several other known problem pages.   They all worked.   

Next I switched back to the router and the problem returns as expected.   I shut down every app I could, fired up wireshark and then started Vivaldi.  I let it run till the point it timed out, captured the data and closed the connection.     

It's a bit hard to tell as the OS spams the router with Microsoft traffic but it does appear they are attempting to use some of the addresses I have locked.  We know they have some hard coded IPs but again, the ones they mention are not on my list.   Vivaldi would need to make what they require very clear and why before I would open it up.  Another option would be to open a block of addresses at a time until I locate it but I have them all blocked for a reason.

Microsoft, creating the most complex virus yet with Windows 10 had caused me to rethink how to lock things down which comes with a price.   Vivaldi for what ever reason is caught up in it.  Too bad really.   If MS starts investing in FF, I will need to find something else.

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #136 on: July 06, 2020, 01:41:45 am »

Yeah, I've had it with surveillance capitalism, but I don't see any escape from it other than dropping off the grid completely.

I sometimes go out without my phone, it almost feels naughty!  :D
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #137 on: July 06, 2020, 10:15:27 pm »
So, after running that little experiment with Vivaldi where I opened connection for 10, I powered up the PC today and get this nice new message.  In this case, the PC was purchased with the OS installed and there should have been no reason for them to fuck with it.  Of course, the router blocks it from from activating.  So now there is a constant reminder in the lower right corner that there is a problem.   

Another point of interest is that if I now select update (mind you it is running through the router) it reports it is up to date.   I suspect we have a new block of IPs added in their upgrade.     Best virus ever!!




Online joeqsmith

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #138 on: July 06, 2020, 10:23:06 pm »
Opening the connection once again to allow it to activate and it looks like it's going to be a long wait.....

It will be interesting to see what new hooks they have added.  It seems like with every upgrade they add a few new addresses to attempt to circumvent the router.   

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #139 on: July 06, 2020, 10:23:31 pm »
So, after running that little experiment with Vivaldi where I opened connection for 10, I powered up the PC today and get this nice new message.  In this case, the PC was purchased with the OS installed and there should have been no reason for them to fuck with it.  Of course, the router blocks it from from activating.  So now there is a constant reminder in the lower right corner that there is a problem.   

Another point of interest is that if I now select update (mind you it is running through the router) it reports it is up to date.   I suspect we have a new block of IPs added in their upgrade.     Best virus ever!!

I have an application that I use on an old Android tablet in my car, to look at the CAN bus and display various gauges with information like hybrid battery state of charge, temperature, 4x4 clutch activation percentage, that kind of stuff.

Every 6 months or so, I get a popup "Application not owned!"  -  meaning, it wants me to carry the tablet into the house, connect to the Internet, so it can talk with the mother ship.   Then it is happy for another 6 months or so.

To say that I find this behavior offensive is an understatement...

 

Offline ejeffrey

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #140 on: July 06, 2020, 10:46:47 pm »

[...]

And then why a preinstalled, but non-essential app can't be uninstalled is fricking annoying. It may not be an MS issue per se (but as for MS, I still warn people about this app.)
The fact it was drawing a lot of power with also abnormal data consumption, although I have no proof of what it does, doesn't look good.


I have noticed the same thing with Android -  a whole class of applications that cannot be uninstalled?   :wtf:

Sadly, this seems to just be part of the "conspiracy" to force telemetry and tracking down everyone's throats - can you think of any other plausible reason?

You can't uninstall manufacturer installed applications because they are part of the base OS image which is read-only.   But you can disable them which keeps them from updating or launching.  This will stop them from taking up additional storage beyond the base image and also avoid using CPU, memory, or collecting data.  Last time I checked you have to do this from the setting menu under Apps.   Unless this has been fixed if you go to the play store app and select the "uninstall" option for a built-in app it uninstalls the version that has auto-updated but leaves the original factory app behind (which will then eventually auto-update).  I have no idea if you technically have to use uninstall to revert them to the factory version followed by disabling if you want to avoid having it take extra storage as I don't care that much about storage as long as I can disable the app.

Also note that there are applications that are not part of the system image but are instead automatically installed by the welcome/signup app on first boot.  Those should be able to be uninstalled completely.
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #141 on: July 06, 2020, 10:54:47 pm »
That's pretty bad.   I wouldn't be surprised to see MS force something like that on the few users they have left.    It's looking like 1903 is the full install as it's been pounding the network non-stop once it made it to that one.  There appears to be no indicators as to how long it will take.   
 
Last time they had pulled this shit, I had no idea what they were doing.   Will the PC will ever boot again and if it does, will all of my tools still work.  Will it be as stable as it has been.   Will I get a new candy crush game?   Maybe some new fancy menus that I have to navigate.     It's just so fucking productive. 


Online joeqsmith

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #142 on: July 06, 2020, 11:45:04 pm »
1903 appears to be over a year old.   :-DD :-DD   Well, I did say I have them locked out.   

Reading through MS notes on 1903, I didn't find one feature that looked like it would be of benefit to me.   So glad they shove it down my throat.   

Of course, their quality updater failed about an hour an a half into the process.    It oozes quality..   

Offline Monkeh

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #143 on: July 06, 2020, 11:46:52 pm »
You have, after all, gone out of your way to make it difficult for them..
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #144 on: July 07, 2020, 12:29:13 am »
You have, after all, gone out of your way to make it difficult for them..

It's wide open for them.  Just like the wild west.   If they can't make it work under these conditions, they best be looking for new talent.

After about a half hour of resetting, it's back, just in time for the next round of updates.   2.5 hours so far of doing nothing but watching this stupid PC load patches I don't give a shit about. 


**
While poor Microsoft is normally locked out, they are not the victim.   Those of us having to deal with their shit are.     


2 hours, 40 minutes. 
Pull the trigger on 1909?  Anyone here running it.  If so why?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2020, 12:41:03 am by joeqsmith »
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #145 on: July 07, 2020, 12:49:18 am »

[...]

And then why a preinstalled, but non-essential app can't be uninstalled is fricking annoying. It may not be an MS issue per se (but as for MS, I still warn people about this app.)
The fact it was drawing a lot of power with also abnormal data consumption, although I have no proof of what it does, doesn't look good.


I have noticed the same thing with Android -  a whole class of applications that cannot be uninstalled?   :wtf:

Sadly, this seems to just be part of the "conspiracy" to force telemetry and tracking down everyone's throats - can you think of any other plausible reason?

You can't uninstall manufacturer installed applications because they are part of the base OS image which is read-only.   But you can disable them which keeps them from updating or launching.  This will stop them from taking up additional storage beyond the base image and also avoid using CPU, memory, or collecting data.  Last time I checked you have to do this from the setting menu under Apps.   Unless this has been fixed if you go to the play store app and select the "uninstall" option for a built-in app it uninstalls the version that has auto-updated but leaves the original factory app behind (which will then eventually auto-update).  I have no idea if you technically have to use uninstall to revert them to the factory version followed by disabling if you want to avoid having it take extra storage as I don't care that much about storage as long as I can disable the app.

Also note that there are applications that are not part of the system image but are instead automatically installed by the welcome/signup app on first boot.  Those should be able to be uninstalled completely.

Yep, whatever MS is guilty of on the telemetry/snooping front, I am pretty sure Google/Android is worse.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #146 on: July 07, 2020, 01:01:05 am »
While poor Microsoft is normally locked out, they are not the victim.   Those of us having to deal with their shit are.

I don't disagree, but either run their OS the way it's intended or don't bitch when you break it.

Quote
Pull the trigger on 1909?  Anyone here running it.  If so why?

Because fighting it is more effort than it's worth. Mind you, it still only updates when I choose to allow it.

As little as I like their crap, third party vendors are responsible for almost all the breakage I've encountered.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2020, 01:12:25 am by Monkeh »
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #147 on: July 07, 2020, 02:08:07 am »
If you are offended by my bitching about the shit MS has turned out in these later versions, the easiest thing is to block me and your problems are over.       

About 3.5 hours which included sniffing for an hour.  A total waste of time.  There doesn't appear to be any new IP blocks added.  :-+   I've also ran through most of my software and it appears functional.   It's back behind the router and assuming I don't run into any problems with all their patches over the next few weeks, it should be fine for another year. 

Another happy customer MS, not  :--   Too bad really but I guess when your software company is failing you need to find other ways to keep it afloat. 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #148 on: July 07, 2020, 02:16:09 am »
It's one thing to complain legitimately about problems, another to create them and blame someone else. You chose to not allow the system to perform updates the way it was designed to, any problems which arise are your responsibility.

Again, I do not like 10 either. At all. I also don't allow it to update (using mechanisms provided for this purpose). I just don't whine about it if that breaks stuff. If the tool doesn't suit your needs, you should get one which does. And, frankly, the data collection and some UI.. choices, aside, the underlying OS is a massive improvement.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2020, 02:20:03 am by Monkeh »
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #149 on: July 07, 2020, 02:44:21 am »
It's one thing to complain legitimately about problems, another to create them and blame someone else. You chose to not allow the system to perform updates the way it was designed to, any problems which arise are your responsibility.

Again, I do not like 10 either. At all. I also don't allow it to update (using mechanisms provided for this purpose). I just don't whine about it if that breaks stuff. If the tool doesn't suit your needs, you should get one which does. And, frankly, the data collection and some UI.. choices, aside, the underlying OS is a massive improvement.

What problem have I created?   Maybe you are incapable of reading the past posts where I explained the problems with constant patching.  It sounds like you are fine with it but that does not mean that everyone is.   As long as MS continues to make shit I will most likely continue to bitch about it as long as I am using it.   Like I said there's an easy fix for you.     

Surely you can't be this ignorant.  What other choice is there at this time?   I am stuck with shit tools and the only solution I have found to counter MSs heavy handed tactics is to lock it.    Its nothing new.  I've had them blocked for 4 or so years now.    The only reason it came up is because I let my guard down long enough for the virus to mutate.   


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