Author Topic: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights  (Read 30364 times)

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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #200 on: July 11, 2020, 03:02:15 pm »
Ran into this with my XP laptop.  Get to the race track, the battery would be dead.   The virus scanner I had installed was able to wake the PC is run it down.   Shit software. 

It appears with the last round of updates to the browser and OS, there are some new IPs that the PC wants to send data to which are also marketing firms.   Amazon for example.   So, for example, not being on Amazons site at all, they seem to be collecting some data as well.   There are others.  A really odd one is LinkedIn.  I have never had an account with them and have no interest in the services they provide.  I wonder what information they could possible find useful.

LinkedIn is owned by Microsoft -  maybe they see an opportunity for a "better Facebook" down the road?
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #201 on: July 11, 2020, 06:46:10 pm »
Really, I didn't know that.   My ignorance of social media is based on my lack of giving a rats ass about it.   :-DD



Offline SilverSolder

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #202 on: July 11, 2020, 08:09:02 pm »
Really, I didn't know that.   My ignorance of social media is based on my lack of giving a rats ass about it.   :-DD

They bought it, not that long ago.  -  Ignoring social media is a good way of remaining sane!   :D
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #203 on: July 11, 2020, 08:51:14 pm »
Windows 10 is basically malware, I don't get why so many people put up with it. Just hearing all the crap they pull off pisses me off enough to never want to touch that junk. 

And MS needs to give up with their failed IE experiment.  Renaming it to something else is not going to change the fact that it's a crappy browser.  They need to just give it up and ship with Firefox or something.
 

Online tom66

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #204 on: July 11, 2020, 10:06:39 pm »
Edge is a good browser, based on Chromium.  But, people are right to be skeptical of Microsoft's intentions with Edge.  They want it to be dominant so they can dictate standards like Google does, and I'd sooner trust Google's standards intention (generally favouring open standards although certainly not privacy-centric) than Microsoft's.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #205 on: July 11, 2020, 10:06:50 pm »
Windows 10 is basically malware, I don't get why so many people put up with it. Just hearing all the crap they pull off pisses me off enough to never want to touch that junk. 

And MS needs to give up with their failed IE experiment.  Renaming it to something else is not going to change the fact that it's a crappy browser.  They need to just give it up and ship with Firefox or something.
Except that it's an entirely different browser, not just a rename.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #206 on: July 11, 2020, 10:09:34 pm »
Edge is a good browser, based on Chromium.  But, people are right to be skeptical of Microsoft's intentions with Edge.  They want it to be dominant so they can dictate standards like Google does, and I'd sooner trust Google's standards intention (generally favouring open standards although certainly not privacy-centric) than Microsoft's.
It's beyond skepticism. They introduced the browser by installing it unasked in an exceptionally intrusive manner. It's full of telemetry. Microsoft's intentions are loud and clear. This browser will be adopted whether we want to or not.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 06:44:33 am by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #207 on: July 12, 2020, 04:31:45 am »
Edge is a good browser, based on Chromium.  But, people are right to be skeptical of Microsoft's intentions with Edge.  They want it to be dominant so they can dictate standards like Google does, and I'd sooner trust Google's standards intention (generally favouring open standards although certainly not privacy-centric) than Microsoft's.
It's beyond skepticism. They introduced thr browser by installing it unasked in an exceptionally intrusive manner. It's full of telemetry. Microsoft's intentions are loud and clear. This browser will be adopted whether we want to or not.

Nobody is forcing us to use it...  right?
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #208 on: July 12, 2020, 06:51:53 am »
Nobody is forcing us to use it...  right?
They're strong arm tactics. I don't think whether actually having a choice makes a difference for most of the Windows users. Considering Microsoft's history with fines for not presenting people with a decent enough choice it seems they haven't learnt their lesson.
 

Offline vk4ffab

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #209 on: July 12, 2020, 10:53:47 am »
It doesn't have to affect the data analysis for it to work. Just making the searches uses their resources while using little on your end.

In all seriousness, the only way to win, is to turn off your computer. Consume less online, gives them less data. I seriously only use about 20 websites. The big data harvesters are social media, facebook, tiktoc, instagram, twiter. The less we feed them the better.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #210 on: July 12, 2020, 11:03:11 am »
In all seriousness, the only way to win, is to turn off your computer. Consume less online, gives them less data. I seriously only use about 20 websites. The big data harvesters are social media, facebook, tiktoc, instagram, twiter. The less we feed them the better.
Please don't start that "discussion" again.  :palm:
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #211 on: July 12, 2020, 12:09:43 pm »
Nobody is forcing us to use it...  right?
They're strong arm tactics. I don't think whether actually having a choice makes a difference for most of the Windows users. Considering Microsoft's history with fines for not presenting people with a decent enough choice it seems they haven't learnt their lesson.

It seems to me that Google, Facebook, and the like are quietly cooperating to do much more intrusive surveillance than Microsoft ever did (or are doing).

The trick here is:  they cooperate.  Whatever you do on eBay is reported back to Google, which then prompts stalking on Facebook later.  (Not only by using cookies...) 

So we are beyond being able to blame one particular corporation for the lamentable state of affairs -  most of them are "in" on it now, and together they have enormous influence with government.  The sense that Trump and Brexit voters often convey that they feel a lack of democratic influence from ordinary people is not completely unfounded...
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #212 on: July 12, 2020, 12:11:54 pm »
It doesn't have to affect the data analysis for it to work. Just making the searches uses their resources while using little on your end.

In all seriousness, the only way to win, is to turn off your computer. Consume less online, gives them less data. I seriously only use about 20 websites. The big data harvesters are social media, facebook, tiktoc, instagram, twiter. The less we feed them the better.

That is the reality,  if you are bothered psychologically by being stalked.   Many people aren't.  They are the ones that would be eaten by the predators in ancient times!  :D
 
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Online NiHaoMike

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #213 on: July 12, 2020, 01:04:12 pm »
Please don't start that "discussion" again.  :palm:
The sure way to end it is to prove (or disprove) that creating a lot of random searches "costs them less than it costs you". Given the computer science of generating pseudorandom numbers is far simpler than that of searching databases, it would be quite a feat even if they have a 10X advantage in lower energy cost. If it is the case, it would be interesting to know how they do it.
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #214 on: July 12, 2020, 01:15:55 pm »
Please don't start that "discussion" again.  :palm:
The sure way to end it is to prove (or disprove) that creating a lot of random searches "costs them less than it costs you". Given the computer science of generating pseudorandom numbers is far simpler than that of searching databases, it would be quite a feat even if they have a 10X advantage in lower energy cost. If it is the case, it would be interesting to know how they do it.

I think the noise idea could work -  but only if enough of the "prey" were doing it that it amounted to a kind of denial-of-service attack on the "predators"!  :D

Perhaps some kind of open source noise generating screen saver or other app that could devote a couple of percent of your CPU resources to generating noise.  It would have to be very cleverly generated noise, and it would have to change and evolve to remain ahead of the "predators"... it would need to be designed to create plausible looking, but false patterns across millions of users...   

 

Online NiHaoMike

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #215 on: July 12, 2020, 01:32:51 pm »
I think the noise idea could work -  but only if enough of the "prey" were doing it that it amounted to a kind of denial-of-service attack on the "predators"!  :D

Perhaps some kind of open source noise generating screen saver or other app that could devote a couple of percent of your CPU resources to generating noise.  It would have to be very cleverly generated noise, and it would have to change and evolve to remain ahead of the "predators"... it would need to be designed to create plausible looking, but false patterns across millions of users...   
Just draining their resources doesn't need very much sophistication at all and would be very easy to implement. The big question is exactly how much energy does it take on their side to do a search?
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #216 on: July 12, 2020, 03:56:48 pm »
I think the noise idea could work -  but only if enough of the "prey" were doing it that it amounted to a kind of denial-of-service attack on the "predators"!  :D

Perhaps some kind of open source noise generating screen saver or other app that could devote a couple of percent of your CPU resources to generating noise.  It would have to be very cleverly generated noise, and it would have to change and evolve to remain ahead of the "predators"... it would need to be designed to create plausible looking, but false patterns across millions of users...   
Just draining their resources doesn't need very much sophistication at all and would be very easy to implement. The big question is exactly how much energy does it take on their side to do a search?

Just draining their resources wouldn't matter to them - they can just keep adding servers until you get arrested for conducting DDOS attacks!  -   whereas if the noise was "smart",  it would be far more damaging to the predators, and much less of it would be needed.

"Smart noise".  You saw it here first!  :D

P.S.:  It is easy to create a little "smart noise"...   whenever you search for something,  also search for two or three other things that you don't actually care about.  This leaves the predators with a couple of false trails that they then have to figure out.  Chances are they will waste their sponsor's ads...   in other words, you will be wasting their resources.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 04:00:08 pm by SilverSolder »
 

Offline bd139

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #217 on: July 12, 2020, 04:00:56 pm »
Considering Azure borked a while back because they ran out of servers, it probably wouldn’t take much  :-DD
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #218 on: July 12, 2020, 04:20:14 pm »
Please don't start that "discussion" again.  :palm:
The sure way to end it is to prove (or disprove) that creating a lot of random searches "costs them less than it costs you". Given the computer science of generating pseudorandom numbers is far simpler than that of searching databases, it would be quite a feat even if they have a 10X advantage in lower energy cost. If it is the case, it would be interesting to know how they do it.

I think the noise idea could work -  but only if enough of the "prey" were doing it that it amounted to a kind of denial-of-service attack on the "predators"!  :D

Perhaps some kind of open source noise generating screen saver or other app that could devote a couple of percent of your CPU resources to generating noise.  It would have to be very cleverly generated noise, and it would have to change and evolve to remain ahead of the "predators"... it would need to be designed to create plausible looking, but false patterns across millions of users...

Well yeah. Obviously by adding noise, you're going to decrease the "SNR". It would have a consequence only if the SNR has gone low enough that gathering data is not profitable anymore - and I guess there is a very LARGE margin there, so while the idea could work, in practice it's not very likely to have any sizeable effect. A large fraction of all connected users would have to do it. Also, all the more that I think there is also a large margin regarding how all users of "big data" analysis can actually detect that the data they gather is actually bogus. I'm pretty sure it would take a while before they even realize it. Another related thought - if enough people were actually flooding networks with "noise" and it had a noticeable effect on the effectiveness of data analysis, there are so many interests at stake here that doing it would probably become illegal in most countries. Sweet. Of course you could always try to outsmart it, and just release bogus, but credible information, instead of mere noise. But in that case, we would be back in the case I described just above: the systems wouldn't be able to really tell the data is bogus, and all actors of that would actually NOT care. They are just interested in selling data, and as long as this data looks credible, they don't care whether it's actually real or bogus. (Until of course it has a quantifiable effect, but IMHO it would take a long time before it does, or at least before we can analyze for sure it does.)

All that said, even if not practical as a means of stopping data gathering as a whole, it can be a way of isolating oneself from it. So, basically an individual solution, but not a global one.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 04:22:25 pm by SiliconWizard »
 

Online NiHaoMike

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #219 on: July 12, 2020, 04:27:04 pm »
Just draining their resources wouldn't matter to them - they can just keep adding servers until you get arrested for conducting DDOS attacks!
Pretty easy to hide your IP address using free proxies and VPNs, or step up to Tor for even more protection. You can also use a VPN/proxy after Tor (that is, you connect to the VPN/proxy using Tor) to get the security of Tor without creating backlash against Tor IPs.
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #220 on: July 12, 2020, 09:45:29 pm »
Just draining their resources doesn't need very much sophistication at all and would be very easy to implement. The big question is exactly how much energy does it take on their side to do a search?
You still refuse to do some homework. What portion of one server do you think you can gum up with your "plan", vague as it is. How many queries can you bombard them with before your connection is denied? How much servers do Google and Microsoft have? It's know both achieves remarkable efficiency by employing all kinds of tightly integrated technologies and they obviously buy industrial power at even lower prices than usual so I'd like to hear how that factors in.

You're still proposing to essentially DDOS the top dogs of bandwidth and capacity. Even if you deploy some anonymising scheme you're still talking about what essentially is creating a botnet to attack Google or Microsoft. It should also be noted that this is considered a felony and they love making examples of naive idiots. Without some ballpark estimates showing you're more than ant and to the freight train it's all just a naive fantasy about defeating the system. Illuminate us how you're going to build a sizeable botnet and evade the law.
 

Online NiHaoMike

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #221 on: July 12, 2020, 10:29:39 pm »
Use free proxies and VPNs to get around IP blocking.

Make the primary purpose something else (e.g. quickly parse the results to make "art") and even add an anti-DoS mechanism that measures the response time and slow down if it increases significantly. The latter would make it less effective, so the sensitivity would have to be adjusted to not slow it down too much but still be plausible to say it's an anti-DoS mechanism.

Maybe we should go back to the throwaway accounts and spam idea. That would be more effective at draining the resources of spammers (who presumably have a lot more resources than ordinary home users, plus unlike Google do not provide anything useful to end users), which would also be a good thing. And it would use minimal resources on the client side.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #222 on: July 12, 2020, 10:43:10 pm »
Use free proxies and VPNs to get around IP blocking.

Make the primary purpose something else (e.g. quickly parse the results to make "art") and even add an anti-DoS mechanism that measures the response time and slow down if it increases significantly. The latter would make it less effective, so the sensitivity would have to be adjusted to not slow it down too much but still be plausible to say it's an anti-DoS mechanism.

Maybe we should go back to the throwaway accounts and spam idea. That would be more effective at draining the resources of spammers (who presumably have a lot more resources than ordinary home users, plus unlike Google do not provide anything useful to end users), which would also be a good thing. And it would use minimal resources on the client side.
:blah:

You know you have a brilliant idea, if only you knew what it was!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect
 
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Online NiHaoMike

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #223 on: July 12, 2020, 11:11:17 pm »
I think it's safe to say the real implementation of my idea would be done by someone with a lot more experience in network programming optimization than I do. Actually, it's not even my idea, just my thoughts on optimizing someone else's proof of concept.
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Offline vk4ffab

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #224 on: July 12, 2020, 11:18:53 pm »
Use free proxies and VPNs to get around IP blocking.

Make the primary purpose something else (e.g. quickly parse the results to make "art") and even add an anti-DoS mechanism that measures the response time and slow down if it increases significantly. The latter would make it less effective, so the sensitivity would have to be adjusted to not slow it down too much but still be plausible to say it's an anti-DoS mechanism.

Maybe we should go back to the throwaway accounts and spam idea. That would be more effective at draining the resources of spammers (who presumably have a lot more resources than ordinary home users, plus unlike Google do not provide anything useful to end users), which would also be a good thing. And it would use minimal resources on the client side.

You are still missing the point. Lets say that a ddos of google could work, and it wont, but lets say it will, what then? Does this stop every other website on the net harvesting data? No. I have a webserver, I own the physical box and maintain it, on it is 1 wordpress site, its colocated in a secure facility. I have never installed any analytics and I have no advertising and yet, wordpress or some plugin i am using is harvesting data all the time and I cannot stop it. And i just do not have time skill to write my own blog software from the ground up, so i live with minimal data harvesting.

But these are not even the most pervasive of issues. What about everytime you order from JLCpcb or Ali Express, your information is passed onto the Chinese Government, or at least can be as that is the law. And this goes on and one. Or what about your cell phone? Its tracking your crap all the time, its apps are reporting back to the mothership all the time, its gps can locate you to within 20m. A smart phone is nothing more than a surveillance device in your pocket. How about your smart watch? Yeah you are being watched all the time. The question is how much of that being watched actually matters? And just remember, your TV is watching you too.

The best any of us can do is to block as much as is possible and after that, avoid the internet, cell phones and other smart devices if you are actually worried. Consume less is the only way to not be a bitch to corporate interests. Personally, i do not care all that much about data tracking, my life is boring, i am not a criminal, i obey the law, i pay my taxes. They know i walk from my bedroom to my office in the morning and go to work, they know i shop on ebay, jlc, lcsc and mouser, visit the same bunch of websites every day and am not big on social media. And i am ok with that.
 


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