Author Topic: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights  (Read 30358 times)

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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #225 on: July 12, 2020, 11:47:12 pm »
I think it's safe to say the real implementation of my idea would be done by someone with a lot more experience in network programming optimization than I do. Actually, it's not even my idea, just my thoughts on optimizing someone else's proof of concept.
Uh-huh. You're the Idea Guy. You're not investing anything nor doing the work, you're just the guy with the incredible yet surprisingly unspecific idea. The important part is that you just know, and we should know, it's going to change everything.

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Online NiHaoMike

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #226 on: July 13, 2020, 12:18:29 am »
Or what about your cell phone? Its tracking your crap all the time, its apps are reporting back to the mothership all the time, its gps can locate you to within 20m. A smart phone is nothing more than a surveillance device in your pocket. How about your smart watch? Yeah you are being watched all the time. The question is how much of that being watched actually matters? And just remember, your TV is watching you too.
Both my smartphone and smartwatch run aftermarket firmware without Google. My TV isn't even connected to the network since there's no point doing that, I just have it connected to a Linux PC. I download videos using youtube-dl and play them using mpv, so Google doesn't know when I watch the videos unless I go to comment right afterwards. I always use Adblock so I don't see how they would profit from my data. I have considered switching to a stealth adblocker so they would waste ad views, but in the near term I think that will just feed such data collection efforts, so I'm sticking with uBlock Origin for now.
Uh-huh. You're the Idea Guy. You're not investing anything nor doing the work, you're just the guy with the incredible yet surprisingly unspecific idea. The important part is that you just know, and we should know, it's going to change everything.
The Javascript proof of concept, made by someone else:
http://makeinternetnoise.com/index.html
I just gave some input on how it could be optimized, but obviously someone who really knows what they're doing will do a better job at optimizing it.
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Offline vk4ffab

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #227 on: July 13, 2020, 12:50:02 am »
Or what about your cell phone? Its tracking your crap all the time, its apps are reporting back to the mothership all the time, its gps can locate you to within 20m. A smart phone is nothing more than a surveillance device in your pocket. How about your smart watch? Yeah you are being watched all the time. The question is how much of that being watched actually matters? And just remember, your TV is watching you too.
Both my smartphone and smartwatch run aftermarket firmware without Google. My TV isn't even connected to the network since there's no point doing that, I just have it connected to a Linux PC. I download videos using youtube-dl and play them using mpv, so Google doesn't know when I watch the videos unless I go to comment right afterwards. I always use Adblock so I don't see how they would profit from my data. I have considered switching to a stealth adblocker so they would waste ad views, but in the near term I think that will just feed such data collection efforts, so I'm sticking with uBlock Origin for now.

And still the point is, this mostly changes nothing. Does anyone really care that youtube knows I watch eevblog and elecroboom and that guy with the Swiss accent? See this kind of data collection only becomes a problem when people are using youtube for "RESEARCH" and allowing its suggestion algorithm to feed your biases, or if you use youtube or facebook and twitter to get your news and information. The only way to defeat this sort of thing is to be educated, scientifically literate and understand what sources of should be trusted and then have the ability to fact check it all yourself. Even if you defeat the data collection, its still very easy to fall for very same trap of only using untrustworthy sources of information that are there to feed your biases. You cannot get away from data collection and feeding it noise really does nothing, but you can be smarter than it and not allow it to have much influence over the decisions you make, and ultimately that is how you defeat them.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #228 on: July 13, 2020, 01:00:13 am »

[...] if enough people were actually flooding networks with "noise" and it had a noticeable effect on the effectiveness of data analysis, there are so many interests at stake here that doing it would probably become illegal in most countries. Sweet. [...]


Yes, that is pretty much exactly what would happen -  compare with DMCA laws etc. that (almost) make it illegal to fix your own stuff, lest you deprive some corporate interest or other of the income that is rightfully theirs...   ::)

Generating "smart noise" would be very hard to prevent and to make illegal.  Say you are interested in Gillette shaving foam...  your noisy search tool might create several decoy searches along with the real search terms,  resulting in searches for "Mars Bar", "Vacations in Peru", "The relative merits of Constitutional Monarchy vs. Republic", "Gillette Shaving Foam", and "Cloning sheep Dolly".    Not much traffic at all, certainly not enough to be considered denial of service or network abuse.  But there is no way for Google and other predators to know which of your searches is a decoy search and which is real.  So the effectiveness of their algorithms matching searchers and sellers takes a big hit, becoming much less effective. 

If enough people did this, it would hurt them badly, because now the wrong ads get put in front of the intended audience, and the value of the advertising "space" drops as a result. 

 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #229 on: July 13, 2020, 01:42:43 am »
Please don't start that "discussion" again.  :palm:
The sure way to end it is to prove (or disprove) that creating a lot of random searches "costs them less than it costs you". Given the computer science of generating pseudorandom numbers is far simpler than that of searching databases, it would be quite a feat even if they have a 10X advantage in lower energy cost. If it is the case, it would be interesting to know how they do it.

I think the noise idea could work -  but only if enough of the "prey" were doing it that it amounted to a kind of denial-of-service attack on the "predators"!  :D

Perhaps some kind of open source noise generating screen saver or other app that could devote a couple of percent of your CPU resources to generating noise.  It would have to be very cleverly generated noise, and it would have to change and evolve to remain ahead of the "predators"... it would need to be designed to create plausible looking, but false patterns across millions of users...

I would love to see extensions like Privacy Badger and ublock implement a noise feature.  Basically it would simulate normal internet usage and doing random searches and going on random sites even when the browser is idle so it feeds junk data into all the spy algorithms.   Though I think to make it more realistic you almost need something that runs in a VM and actually controls the browser - like actually clicking and typing and moving the mouse.  All this spying is doing stuff like reading your history or reading your mouse position etc and probably even reading your hard drive so it's not so much that you have to send them junk data, but rather produce junk data/activity locally so they take the junk data from you.

What I hate though is the fact that browsers are designed in such a way that all this spying stuff is even possible.   The personal data these sites have access to and the fact that browsers provide it is part of the problem. 
 

Offline nuclearcat

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #230 on: August 06, 2020, 11:07:10 am »
Quick update on subject for those, who use "hosts" file for telemetry block:
https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/windows-10-hosts-file-blocking-telemetry-is-now-flagged-as-a-risk/

Starting at the end of July, Microsoft has begun detecting HOSTS files that block Windows 10 telemetry servers as a 'Severe' security risk.

 

Offline PKTKS

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #231 on: August 06, 2020, 11:20:24 am »

Monsanto and Microsoft share a similar business strategy

- their products  are crippled by design
- their products aim to make consumers addicted to their license
- their products are seductive disguised and totally criminal

While one target to deploy addiction by hungry (no seeds)
The other target addiction by restricting control of individual privacy

Arbitrary Telemetry  and DRM snoopers which scan
the  whole system in permanent snooping state.

To say the least - criminal is a soft word for their business.


Paul

 

Offline PKTKS

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #232 on: August 06, 2020, 11:28:36 am »
A secondary side note of these business is that
currently the retarded goonies behind ** systemd **
are pushing the very same business model.

Surfaced lightly by "secure" "compliance" and some
other misleading words,, systemd aims no further than
the very same control of system privacy and  process
snooping.

To an extent that is hard to put in simple words.

Soon the very same crap like "Anti Virus"..
paid safety and paid upgrades or paid clients
will surface this model

Behind that is very simple to see the very
same players behind the other crap business

They push the thing disguised as usual
with underlying tons of money

Monsanto Microsoft and systemd goonies should go to hell

Paul
« Last Edit: August 06, 2020, 11:47:08 am by PKTKS »
 
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Offline rdl

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #233 on: August 06, 2020, 04:29:03 pm »
What's even worse is, they keep you from saving the hosts file if you try to add something they don't like.
 

Offline peter-h

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #234 on: August 06, 2020, 05:40:24 pm »
Block telemetry servers in a router firewall? Even cheap routers can do this.

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Offline BravoV

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #235 on: August 06, 2020, 05:46:20 pm »
Just don't understand the mentality of keep using Windows, but naively pretending one can tweak/hack or do what so ever to shutdown the telemetry, while still connected to the net (not air gapped), cmon, wake up or at least grow up.  :palm:

 
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Offline duckduck

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #236 on: August 06, 2020, 07:20:02 pm »
Just don't understand the mentality of keep using Windows, but naively pretending one can tweak/hack or do what so ever to shutdown the telemetry, while still connected to the net (not air gapped), cmon, wake up or at least grow up.  :palm:

Agree. Windows is a privacy nightmare. If you choose to/must use Windows you can check out use the app from https://wpd.app/ to disable what you can.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2020, 09:45:35 pm by duckduck »
 

Online NiHaoMike

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #237 on: August 06, 2020, 10:17:13 pm »
What's even worse is, they keep you from saving the hosts file if you try to add something they don't like.
What happens if you boot into a Linux live distro to edit it, then set the file to read only?
Block telemetry servers in a router firewall? Even cheap routers can do this.
Or connect Windows to a network that only has proxy access. Then set up the proxy in only the apps you want connected. Could even be done using VMs.
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Offline bd139

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #238 on: August 06, 2020, 10:19:42 pm »
Apparently the EU are going to give them an arse kicking on this shortly. Fingers crossed.

 
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Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #239 on: August 06, 2020, 11:38:36 pm »
The more I read on Windows 10 the more I absolutely don't want it on my network.  I do have a Windows 7 machine for gaming but even that is on a separate vlan now.  Discord requires you to forward thousands of UDP ports for it to work, which is horrible design, and I did not like the idea of forwarding that many ports to a machine on my main network so I put it on a separate vlan, which is a good idea anyway.

Not even surprised that they are blocking attempts to edit the host file, best to block the telemetry stuff at the firewall.   If you use a proxy make sure it's password protected, as Windows might be smart enough to detect and use it.   I would also avoid using IE as if yo configure the proxy in it, even if it's password protected it will probably be able to then have Windows itself use it for telemetry.

Apparently the EU are going to give them an arse kicking on this shortly. Fingers crossed.
That should be interesting.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #240 on: August 06, 2020, 11:55:59 pm »
I honestly wouldn't have wanted to depend on the hosts file to block Microsoft telemetry before. Independent DNS blocking seems to be the best way though far from perfect and that can be circumvented if they decide so.
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #241 on: August 07, 2020, 12:56:15 am »
At this point I would even do IP based blocking too, it's a matter of time until MS just hard codes the IPs so there is no DNS lookup needed.   They own their IP space so no reason why they can't do that, not like they have to worry about IPs changing on them such as if you are using a leased server or something.   TBH I'm surprised they did not already do that.

If they REALLY wanted to be assholes they could even have the computer shut down or cripple the usability (maybe with constant errors) if it can't reach the telemetry servers.  I honestly won't be surprised if they eventually do this. I probably should not be giving them ideas. :P
 

Online NiHaoMike

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #242 on: August 07, 2020, 01:37:21 am »
I would also avoid using IE as if yo configure the proxy in it, even if it's password protected it will probably be able to then have Windows itself use it for telemetry.
Better, configure it to use a fake proxy that always returns null responses (as in a blank HTML page) and silently discards anything sent to it.
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #243 on: August 07, 2020, 01:42:23 am »
hey did not already do that.

If they REALLY wanted to be assholes they could even have the computer shut down or cripple the usability (maybe with constant errors) if it can't reach the telemetry servers.  I honestly won't be surprised if they eventually do this. I probably should not be giving them ideas. :P

You never used win98 did you?

 ;)
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Online themadhippy

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #244 on: August 07, 2020, 01:45:24 am »
Quote
If they REALLY wanted to be assholes they could even have the computer shut down or cripple the usability (maybe with constant errors) if it can't reach the telemetry servers.  I honestly won't be surprised if they eventually do this. I probably should not be giving them ideas
No need to give them ideas,there already partially there with the xbox , as that requires an internet connection during set up,no internet no go.
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #245 on: August 07, 2020, 01:51:00 am »
hey did not already do that.

If they REALLY wanted to be assholes they could even have the computer shut down or cripple the usability (maybe with constant errors) if it can't reach the telemetry servers.  I honestly won't be surprised if they eventually do this. I probably should not be giving them ideas. :P

You never used win98 did you?

 ;)

That would just cripple and throw errors for no reason, despite internet being there or not.  :-DD  "This program has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down".  Either that, or BSOD.

That's one thing I got to give MS at least their OSes are more stable than before now.   :P
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #246 on: August 07, 2020, 01:55:51 am »
hey did not already do that.

If they REALLY wanted to be assholes they could even have the computer shut down or cripple the usability (maybe with constant errors) if it can't reach the telemetry servers.  I honestly won't be surprised if they eventually do this. I probably should not be giving them ideas. :P

You never used win98 did you?

 ;)

That would just cripple and throw errors for no reason, despite internet being there or not.  :-DD  "This program has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down".  Either that, or BSOD.

That's one thing I got to give MS at least their OSes are more stable than before now.   :P

Apparently not from what's written above. An OS that actively denies your preferences in regards to net access cannot be deemed stable.

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Online NiHaoMike

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #247 on: August 07, 2020, 02:08:02 am »
That's one thing I got to give MS at least their OSes are more stable than before now.   :P
Thank Linux for that - remember how Linux just started becoming practical for everyday desktop use?
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Offline rdl

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #248 on: August 07, 2020, 05:04:06 am »
The entire internet has become a privacy mess. The main problem is how companies like Microsoft, Google, etc. act as if having an connection gives them the right to do as they please with it. Probably 99% of the people that use computers have no idea how much is really going on without their knowledge.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #249 on: August 07, 2020, 07:59:00 am »
That's one thing I got to give MS at least their OSes are more stable than before now.   :P
Thank Linux for that - remember how Linux just started becoming practical for everyday desktop use?

LOL no. It’s just as if even not more broken than windows.
 


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