Author Topic: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights  (Read 30410 times)

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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #75 on: July 03, 2020, 09:59:52 pm »

A Win7 machine here received Edge as an update a couple of days ago, as well.

Not bad for an unsupported OS that's not supposed to get any updates...

 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #76 on: July 03, 2020, 10:30:00 pm »

A Win7 machine here received Edge as an update a couple of days ago, as well.

Not bad for an unsupported OS that's not supposed to get any updates...

Indeed, it appeared as an update.
Note that 7 also gets Windows Defender updates on a (very) regular basis, but apparently it's just "signatures" and not the core software itself.

I guess they consider both as not directly part of the OS, but as additional MS apps, that you still get updates for. Edge is a weird case though - what app is it supposed to update? Internet Explorer? Which would be contradictory though, as MS explicited stated that IE support on 7 would end on the same date that the OS support itself would.

Also note that 7 is NOT exactly unsupported. Support is just no longer free. https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/help/4527878/faq-about-extended-security-updates-for-windows-7
At the moment, ESU has a planned update cycle up to Jan. 2023.
 

Offline rdl

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #77 on: July 03, 2020, 10:40:26 pm »
Last week Defender claimed it needed an definitions update. It downloaded it but couldn't install it. Googling the error did not really help. I didn't really look into it any farther. Maybe definitions are no longer compatible with the Windows 7 Defender?
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #78 on: July 03, 2020, 11:35:45 pm »
Indeed, it appeared as an update.
Note that 7 also gets Windows Defender updates on a (very) regular basis, but apparently it's just "signatures" and not the core software itself.

I guess they consider both as not directly part of the OS, but as additional MS apps, that you still get updates for. Edge is a weird case though - what app is it supposed to update? Internet Explorer? Which would be contradictory though, as MS explicited stated that IE support on 7 would end on the same date that the OS support itself would.

Also note that 7 is NOT exactly unsupported. Support is just no longer free. https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/help/4527878/faq-about-extended-security-updates-for-windows-7
At the moment, ESU has a planned update cycle up to Jan. 2023.
Windows 7 is essentially unsupported as regular Joes won't get any further updates. Extended support isn't for regular end users.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #79 on: July 03, 2020, 11:45:43 pm »
For starters, you haven't shown us any examples of how one would generate this noise.

If there is no real data, then, sure, the monitor "spent a lot of computing power ..." but then again, so did you. The difference is that they have power to spare and you don't.

I should also point out that your internet connection is metered. Look at your bill. You do have a data-transfer cap, even if it's high (like mine, which is a terabyte per month). Do you really want to eat up your data allotment sending noise?
Being ridiculously naive about how these things work isn't going to help anyone. Generating noise successfully depends both on overwhelming the other party and creating relevant and appropriate "adversarial" noise. Neither are realistically going to happen. These are incredibly well funded parties literally making their money by distilling vast amounts of highly noisy data into something usable profitable. Some idealistic handwavy plans aren't going to impress anyone.
 

Offline AlexJackson

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #80 on: July 04, 2020, 12:04:43 am »
And here I am slowly migrating my main programs, and work environment to Debian Mate to leave the Microsoft Ecosystem. (Plasma looks nice and polished so I'm struggling a bit though). I'm still on Windows 7 Pro with updates disabled so luckily I avoided the recommended 'security' updates (*cough* "Edge" *cough*). The only thing holding me to Windows is gaming. Debian Mate "Live USB" w/ persistence is more than adequate for my daily needs such as browsing, programming, and relaxing.

Windows 7, Palemoon browser (portable version, noscript, ublock) along with a pihole with aggressive filters and a firewall with aggressive settings and lots of garbage in my hosts file. It stops a lot of garbage but it also breaks a lot of sites.

In one particular circle of users I'm around, Windows 10 was a huuuuuuuge unmitigated disaster with people running machines 24x7 who operate local weather stations. The incessant rebooting, system wide configuration changes, and a host of issues made Win10 useless for that environment. Its gotten better though. Luckily on my WX server still runs 7 and I haven't had any issues with it. :)

I miss Windows 2000 Pro. An operating system to get work done with no social media installed.
 

Online NiHaoMike

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #81 on: July 04, 2020, 01:51:24 pm »
Being ridiculously naive about how these things work isn't going to help anyone. Generating noise successfully depends both on overwhelming the other party and creating relevant and appropriate "adversarial" noise. Neither are realistically going to happen. These are incredibly well funded parties literally making their money by distilling vast amounts of highly noisy data into something usable profitable. Some idealistic handwavy plans aren't going to impress anyone.
Then what about just cost them computing resources with automated protest? Count how many times you actually use the search along with how much (little) bandwidth it uses and it will turn out doing 100x as many searches per day as a normal user does is not hard at all. And it takes far less computing power to generate random data (especially if defeating tracking is not the goal) than it does to actually do the search.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #82 on: July 04, 2020, 02:35:25 pm »
Then what about just cost them computing resources with automated protest? Count how many times you actually use the search along with how much (little) bandwidth it uses and it will turn out doing 100x as many searches per day as a normal user does is not hard at all. And it takes far less computing power to generate random data (especially if defeating tracking is not the goal) than it does to actually do the search.
Incorrect. You're still working under the naive assumption you can essentially DDOS these groups with blunt noise, which is problematic for several reasons. We can go back and forth endlessly but it's no use without at least some understanding of what you're up against.
 

Online NiHaoMike

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #83 on: July 04, 2020, 02:42:54 pm »
Incorrect. You're still working under the naive assumption you can essentially DDOS these groups with blunt noise, which is problematic for several reasons. We can go back and forth endlessly but it's no use without at least some understanding of what you're up against.
Not a complete DDoS attack, just increasing their costs so the data collection ends up less profitable. Even ignoring the tracking side of things, they end up using resources to return a bunch of results that ultimately just get discarded. Don't forget that it takes resources to look at the search terms and decide what to actually use for analysis.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #84 on: July 04, 2020, 03:04:16 pm »
Not a complete DDoS attack, just increasing their costs so the data collection ends up less profitable. Even ignoring the tracking side of things, they end up using resources to return a bunch of results that ultimately just get discarded. Don't forget that it takes resources to look at the search terms and decide what to actually use for analysis.
You keep making the same handwavy arguments. Stop talking and start informing yourself a bit.
 

Online NiHaoMike

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #85 on: July 04, 2020, 03:10:05 pm »
Please explain why you don't think it will work. I see it as going a step beyond not using the service (using alternatives instead) and actively protesting them.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #86 on: July 04, 2020, 03:22:03 pm »
Please explain why you don't think it will work. I see it as going a step beyond not using the service (using alternatives instead) and actively protesting them.
I already did. Again, stop talking and start reading.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/the-impudence-of-microsoft-has-reached-new-(criminal)-heights/msg3101860/#msg3101860
 

Online NiHaoMike

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #87 on: July 04, 2020, 03:32:29 pm »
It doesn't have to affect the data analysis for it to work. Just making the searches uses their resources while using little on your end.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #88 on: July 04, 2020, 03:52:41 pm »
It doesn't have to affect the data analysis for it to work. Just making the searches uses their resources while using little on your end.
What don't you understand about it being a billion dollar industry making a living out of extracting meaningful data out of massive amounts of noisy data? What numbers did you run that make you believe your little addition to the pile makes any kind of difference? At this point it feels like explaining my 5 year old nephew why his perpetual motion machine isn't going to work.  :palm:
 

Online NiHaoMike

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #89 on: July 04, 2020, 04:06:54 pm »
Do you have any suggestions that go beyond merely not using those services?
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #90 on: July 04, 2020, 04:28:45 pm »
Do you have any suggestions that go beyond merely not using those services?

Even that doesn't help, because all the services that you DO use are feeding the beast in the background.

Every time you do a "Captcha", guess who got "captured"?
 

Online NiHaoMike

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #91 on: July 04, 2020, 04:42:38 pm »
Even that doesn't help, because all the services that you DO use are feeding the beast in the background.

Every time you do a "Captcha", guess who got "captured"?
That's why actively protesting is better than just using the services as little as possible.

There's a captcha breaker to fight the much criticized Google reCAPTCHA.
https://github.com/dessant/buster
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline TMM

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #92 on: July 04, 2020, 04:58:44 pm »
Tbh Windows 10 is an improvement over Windows 7. Things generally just work. Almost all annoyances can be turned off if you delve deep enough, and in a world where Facebook, Google etc know your every move (if you use their mobile apps) I wouldn't be worried about a small trickle of activity profiling being sent to MS. Complaining about M$ will probably put your on their watchlist instead of flying under the radar blending in with the normies viewing selfies on instagram haha!

Re: browsers - I stopped using Chrome when they added the feature to auto-login the browser itself to your Google account as soon as you log in to any Google service via the browser. At least with Firefox you have the option of using the browser somewhat anonymously.

While I hate updates which force new features (or remove them), I think forcing Edge onto people still running outdated browsers is probably a positive thing. Better that grandma uses a modern, reasonably secure browser when following a dodgy email link, instead of IE6.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2020, 05:07:13 pm by TMM »
 

Online themadhippy

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #93 on: July 04, 2020, 05:01:27 pm »
Wonder how much of a back hander the EU got  to stop looking to closely  at  micro$t forcing internet browsers on people
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #94 on: July 04, 2020, 05:14:05 pm »
That's why actively protesting is better than just using the services as little as possible.

There's a captcha breaker to fight the much criticized Google reCAPTCHA.
https://github.com/dessant/buster
You're not actively protesting anything, only fooling yourself and possibly making yourself more visible by also creating additional relevant traffic. If you want to try doing something: block ads, scripts and advertising domains. Block telemetry whenever possible. Use privacy respecting browsers and anonymous tabs and counter fingerprinting. Accept that using some products and services is no longer viable. Not using a smartphone may be a good idea and I suspect that some Linux based distributions are the best option for desktop computing. Whatever the case, without some legislative intervention it seems you can only hope to reduce your footprint a tiny bit. It's not a fight one can reasonably hope to win on your own.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #95 on: July 04, 2020, 05:18:02 pm »
Wonder how much of a back hander the EU got  to stop looking to closely  at  micro$t forcing internet browsers on people

It's no longer an issue of concern:
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #96 on: July 04, 2020, 05:19:07 pm »
Tbh Windows 10 is an improvement over Windows 7. Things generally just work. Almost all annoyances can be turned off if you delve deep enough, and in a world where Facebook, Google etc know your every move (if you use their mobile apps) I wouldn't be worried about a small trickle of activity profiling being sent to MS. Complaining about M$ will probably put your on their watchlist instead of flying under the radar blending in with the normies viewing selfies on instagram haha!

Re: browsers - I stopped using Chrome when they added the feature to auto-login the browser itself to your Google account as soon as you log in to any Google service via the browser. At least with Firefox you have the option of using the browser somewhat anonymously.

While I hate updates which force new features (or remove them), I think forcing Edge onto people still running outdated browsers is probably a positive thing. Better that grandma uses a modern, reasonably secure browser when following a dodgy email link, instead of IE6.
Why do you think Microsoft's data gathering is just "a tiny trickle"? Nadella is transforming Microsoft into a services company and for those more data is better. Data is where the money is and Microsoft stockholders have shown they understand this by replacing Ballmer with Nadella. Microsoft got into the data game and is anything but pussyfooting around. Edge Chrome is actually a decent browser, though unfortunately yet predictably it's stuffed with telemetry features.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2020, 05:21:04 pm by Mr. Scram »
 

Online NiHaoMike

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #97 on: July 04, 2020, 05:22:58 pm »
You're not actively protesting anything, only fooling yourself and possibly making yourself more visible by also creating additional relevant traffic. If you want to try doing something: block ads, scripts and advertising domains. Block telemetry whenever possible. Use privacy respecting browsers and anonymous tabs and counter fingerprinting. Accept that using some products and services is no longer viable.
What's the downside of using a low power device, completely separate from your main PC, to create fake traffic that uses up resources on the services you protest?
Quote
Not using a smartphone may be a good idea
Or use a smartphone based on a completely open OS, for example LineageOS.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #98 on: July 04, 2020, 05:42:59 pm »
You're not actively protesting anything, only fooling yourself and possibly making yourself more visible by also creating additional relevant traffic. If you want to try doing something: block ads, scripts and advertising domains. Block telemetry whenever possible. Use privacy respecting browsers and anonymous tabs and counter fingerprinting. Accept that using some products and services is no longer viable.
What's the downside of using a low power device, completely separate from your main PC, to create fake traffic that uses up resources on the services you protest?
Quote
Not using a smartphone may be a good idea
Or use a smartphone based on a completely open OS, for example LineageOS.
I'm cutting the "why not generate noise" discussion off as we're endlessly circling back to your same mistakes. Reread the previous posts, as they cover your question. LineageOS could be a decent start but still needs to be "degoogled" as it uses some Google components. Using a smartphone means being extremely vigilant and probably overlooking something sooner rather than later. Most prominent apps are completely unusable without Google. We have to remember that Android has been designed to be a sensor for Google. That has been the primary function from the moment Google acquired it and the reason Google did so.
 

Online NiHaoMike

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Re: The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights
« Reply #99 on: July 04, 2020, 06:53:38 pm »
LineageOS could be a decent start but still needs to be "degoogled" as it uses some Google components.
Which is as simple as not installing the "gapps" package.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 


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