The impudence of Microsoft has reached new (criminal?) heights

[joeqsmith]

It's one thing to complain legitimately about problems, another to create them and blame someone else. You chose to not allow the system to perform updates the way it was designed to, any problems which arise are your responsibility.

Again, I do not like 10 either. At all. I also don't allow it to update (using mechanisms provided for this purpose). I just don't whine about it if that breaks stuff. If the tool doesn't suit your needs, you should get one which does. And, frankly, the data collection and some UI.. choices, aside, the underlying OS is a massive improvement.

What problem have I created?   Maybe you are incapable of reading the past posts where I explained the problems with constant patching.  It sounds like you are fine with it but that does not mean that everyone is.   As long as MS continues to make shit I will most likely continue to bitch about it as long as I am using it.   Like I said there's an easy fix for you.     

Surely you can't be this ignorant.  What other choice is there at this time?   I am stuck with shit tools and the only solution I have found to counter MSs heavy handed tactics is to lock it.    Its nothing new.  I've had them blocked for 4 or so years now.    The only reason it came up is because I let my guard down long enough for the virus to mutate.   

[Monkeh]

What problem have I created?   Maybe you are incapable of reading the past posts where I explained the problems with constant patching.

What problem? You haven't allowed the system to keep up with patches correctly, for a start..

It sounds like you are fine with it

Maybe you are incapable of reading the past posts where I indicated I too disallow automatic updates and take control of the process? More succcessfully, apparently.

Surely you can't be this ignorant.  What other choice is there at this time?

Stick to 7? Consider alternative platforms? Yes, I am ignorant - of your software choices and workflow. I can't read your mind and I'm not going to dig into your entire posting history to determine if suggesting you think about your choices is viable or not.

You could just as easily ignore me if you don't like being criticised. Bitch constructively. And if all you've got in response is more childish insults, let's just drop it here before one of us gets banned (again).

[Ed.Kloonk]

It's one thing to complain legitimately about problems, another to create them and blame someone else. You chose to not allow the system to perform updates the way it was designed to, any problems which arise are your responsibility.

Again, I do not like 10 either. At all. I also don't allow it to update (using mechanisms provided for this purpose). I just don't whine about it if that breaks stuff. If the tool doesn't suit your needs, you should get one which does. And, frankly, the data collection and some UI.. choices, aside, the underlying OS is a massive improvement.

It's the insidious, covert payload contained within updates that is what users are not aware of. What makes it annoying is the dominate message that the essential update provides urgent security updates and whilst that might be true and prudent in terms of their kernel code sloppiness, slipping in junk that spews your data is a dick move.

[rsjsouza]

You're struggling because you don't grasp the situation. Forget about being "clever" for a bit and look into what you're up against. Then run some basic numbers and post your findings.

I think you're trying to say one person isn't going to make much of a difference, that's why it needs to be a group effort...

That is my biggest problem with your argument. Sure, let's all open and close TCP connections as fast and as numerous as the system can support and increase the traffic as much as we can to "show them what they deserve", while clogging the pipes for everybody else. Nope, that doesn't work without costing us in the long run in the shape of data caps, speed limits and price increases.

I dislike data mining as much as anyone else that has no skin in the game, but since the absolute majority of people sees no issue paying the availability of resources and services from the internet with their personal data, no amount of group effort will cause a dent in the bottom line - even if a million or ten million join this effort. Defeatist? I prefer to see it as realist.

While poor Microsoft is normally locked out, they are not the victim.   Those of us having to deal with their shit are.

I don't disagree, but either run their OS the way it's intended or don't bitch when you break it.

Windows 10 broke for me many times without me doing anything out of their ecosystem but simply applying updates. MS puts out reasonable software but still insists in surprising you with mandatory updates that can't be disabled for the common man. Sure, a Windows defender update is quite innocuous, but a complete Service Pack overhaul is hardly a walk in the park, especially considering the vast amount of different hardware it supports.

There is a reason as to why my work computer still runs 1809 - IT is very conservative as they have to pick up the pieces of a bad update affecting thousands of stations.

[joeqsmith]

What problem have I created?   Maybe you are incapable of reading the past posts where I explained the problems with constant patching.

What problem? You haven't allowed the system to keep up with patches correctly, for a start..

It sounds like you are fine with it

Maybe you are incapable of reading the past posts where I indicated I too disallow automatic updates and take control of the process? More succcessfully, apparently.

Surely you can't be this ignorant.  What other choice is there at this time?

Stick to 7? Consider alternative platforms? Yes, I am ignorant - of your software choices and workflow. I can't read your mind and I'm not going to dig into your entire posting history to determine if suggesting you think about your choices is viable or not.

You could just as easily ignore me if you don't like being criticised. Bitch constructively. And if all you've got in response is more childish insults, let's just drop it here before one of us gets banned (again).

7    First, it wasn't offered at the time I bought the PC.  Obviously it was stupid to bring it up without knowing my requirements but at least you didn't suggest LINUX. 

I am not considering you trolling, have no reason to block you and don't mind the criticism.  I do find it odd you would bring up banning.   Sorry if I make you feel so uncomfortable but you were the one who decided to engage in this non-productive banter.   

You could have said to yourself, this person is blocking all traffic to MS using a router.  I bet I could help them by suggesting a better approach.   You could then provide a case as to why you feel what you are doing is better.   That would be a grownup way of handing it.    Instead you refer to my responses as childish but so far all you have done is bitch about my bitching.   I guess you could ask the admins to help you out.   Depends on your goal.   

You haven't allowed the system to keep up with patches correctly, for a start..

So what?  I don't give a shit about their patches.  The PC has been very stable without them.   The only time I have had problems is when they start forcing them.   I thought that was clear.     

It would have remained locked and all would have been fine had I not opened up the router to run a test on Vivaldi.    This was all it took for MS to make a change.   No matter how I block it, I don't see how opening it up one way or another is going to prevent this.  If you actually have some useful information,  post it. 

[joeqsmith]

While poor Microsoft is normally locked out, they are not the victim.   Those of us having to deal with their shit are.

I don't disagree, but either run their OS the way it's intended or don't bitch when you break it.

Windows 10 broke for me many times without me doing anything out of their ecosystem but simply applying updates. MS puts out reasonable software but still insists in surprising you with mandatory updates that can't be disabled for the common man. Sure, a Windows defender update is quite innocuous, but a complete Service Pack overhaul is hardly a walk in the park, especially considering the vast amount of different hardware it supports.

There is a reason as to why my work computer still runs 1809 - IT is very conservative as they have to pick up the pieces of a bad update affecting thousands of stations.

I opted out of 1909 and it will take some time to evaluate 1903.  The fact the older has been so stable and I wasn't having any compatibility problems, I can't blame you for staying with it.   

It seems that Monkeh has a better way to lock it down.  Personally, I am very interested in hearing what they are doing.   When I first looked at 10 and saw them sending back data on a simple number pad key press with their calculator running, I figured there wasn't any option that would lock it.   Being totally independent, the router has worked very well.   I had written some software to create the scripts for the router but still I have to run a sniffer and manually lookup each address.   Someone had posted once how there was a database for the routers that people would update.  This may have saved me some time but I have not looked into it.   

[SilverSolder]

I use Windows 10 at work, where there is a whole IT department making it secure and non-leaky...  It isn't too bad at all.

On my lab PC,  I run Windows 7, patched up to about service pack 2 equivalent, but no further patching has been done nor will there be done.  It is 100% rock solid stable.  And...  it is not connected to the Internet, at all.  Brute force, but it works! 

[Monkeh]

Suppressing all instinct to pick apart the giant ego show..

I use the Enterprise edition. Updates disabled, sorted. Sure, there's still some telemetry and I don't know precisely what it is, but I also don't use that machine for real work, so it's not a concern to me. Certainly not worth spending hours trying to block, especially as my use of the system makes that unviable.

And frankly, forced updates are a net benefit even if I don't like them. The arrogance of the typical ignorant user 'this works fine, don't touch it' creates a large portion of the hostile security environment that makes up the internet. That they choose to include 'feature updates' to lower their maintenance burden is a minor annoyance. That they include so much telemetry and keep resetting things to their preferred defaults is horrible behaviour, which is why I do not choose to employ their software for important tasks. Yes, yes, to get it all over with, I use 'LINUX', clearly I am an idiot who achieves nothing because you don't know how to use my tools.

[SilverSolder]

Suppressing all instinct to pick apart the giant ego show..

One of the primary rules for staying sane on the Internet:   Don't show up to every argument you're invited to.

[joeqsmith]

Suppressing all instinct to pick apart the giant ego show..

Feel free.

The arrogance of the typical ignorant user 'this works fine, don't touch it' creates a large portion of the hostile security environment that makes up the internet.

Odd, it's not magic and I just assumed it was the assholes of the world that create it. 


I had noticed as soon as the updates were done, the softheads at MS could not even sort out how to use the old settings at the screen background had changed to black.   I had wasted a little time setting things back up but when powered the machine for the first time the following day, it asked me if I would like to set the PC up.  Oddly, the fucktards don't have an option to turn this popup off, only remind me later or do it now. 

Looking at what had been added to the scheduler.   Of course they put the Xbox BS back in again. 

Sniffing the traffic for 10 minutes with no user applications running, it does appear to generate a little over two times as many attempts to contact MS compared with prior to these patches.   

On power up, it seems to take longer to sort out that it has an internet connection.   The Ethernet cable to this PC is always alive.   

Besides these few things I haven't noticed any problems.  Of course, I haven't noticed any enhancements as well.  In the end, it was a loss of a day. 

I understand that the 1909 update was not as bad as the 1903 as far as downtime. 

I use Windows 10 at work, where there is a whole IT department making it secure and non-leaky...  It isn't too bad at all.

On my lab PC,  I run Windows 7, patched up to about service pack 2 equivalent, but no further patching has been done nor will there be done.  It is 100% rock solid stable.  And...  it is not connected to the Internet, at all.  Brute force, but it works! 

I have 7 on my laptop and doubt I will change it.  It's also been very stable.  I haven't ran into too many problems with 10.   For the most part, it's been stable.  I still have to run XP in a virtualbox to gain access to some of my test equipment but slowly I have been porting over my software to support 10. 

[james_s]

They "upgraded" everyone from 7 to 10 at my previous job and I lived with it for a bit over a year. I've never experienced such a user-hostile operating system as 10 was, it just felt like it was constantly fighting me every step of the way and trying to break my will. It was a real turd at the time too, it has become much more polished since then but it STILL is not as nice looking as 7 and it is still plagued with constant feature updates. My experience with it was so bad that I switched my main work PC to Linux and only ran Windows on my laptop, Linux had improved noticeably since I had last tried it but what really gave it the lead was the fact that Windows had regressed.

They could have avoided a very large part of the controversy by separating security updates from feature updates and UI changes, and by backing off a little on the extremely heavy handed update policy. Users HATE being pushed around, treated like children and told it's for their own good, no matter how valid that is. That and they really should have spent another year polishing the heck out of it before foisting it upon the world. Win10 shipped too soon, it was very half baked and the much touted Edge browser was not even worthy of being called a beta when it shipped. You only get one shot at a first impression and they screwed up royally there.

[SilverSolder]

Microsoft partially lost the plot with Windows 8.  The idea behind Windows 8 was to make a unified experience across PCs, tablets, and phones.  It could well have worked too, but they had made the serious mistake of forcing the "Modern" UI on standard PCs instead of making it an optional feature.  Long time users rebelled and avoided version 8 like the plague.  Microsoft lost several years fighting an uphill battle to get the world to accept the new UI ideas.  Windows 10 was the capitulation.

So here we are, with Windows 10 actually looking and working not that different from Windows 7,  certainly not so bad that I can't find my way around in it. 

But then there is the telemetry and the forced updates to contend with. 

Eventually, I will have to update everything to use Windows 10, but I am not in a great hurry.  It isn't like the old days, where each new version of Windows was an obvious and huge improvement over the previous one...

[rsjsouza]

The arrogance of the typical ignorant user 'this works fine, don't touch it' creates a large portion of the hostile security environment that makes up the internet.

The corollary would be "this works fine, let's keep changing it until... It doesn't?" 

Don't bucket everyone that wants to be left alone with their fully working system as arrogant. Pushing innocuous and undesirable GUI updates and being careless to downtime and loss of productivity is the element of arrogance here. Of course this only applies to us peasants, since you are using the Enterprise version with full control over updates and can lecture us all. Thank you for your wisdom oh mighty guru, but I'll pass. 

Besides these few things I haven't noticed any problems.  Of course, I haven't noticed any enhancements as well.  In the end, it was a loss of a day. 
I understand that the 1909 update was not as bad as the 1903 as far as downtime.

That is the issue; security/kernel updates usually don't bring anything visible but are important. The GUI/application/settings are the key contributors to frustration.

They could have avoided a very large part of the controversy by separating security updates from feature updates and UI changes, and by backing off a little on the extremely heavy handed update policy. Users HATE being pushed around, treated like children and told it's for their own good, no matter how valid that is. That and they really should have spent another year polishing the heck out of it before foisting it upon the world. Win10 shipped too soon, it was very half baked and the much touted Edge browser was not even worthy of being called a beta when it shipped. You only get one shot at a first impression and they screwed up royally there.

Precisely. That would be a nice compromise if Microsoft was seriously concerned about security. However, this approach does not secure a revenue stream.

[Monkeh]

Don't bucket everyone that wants to be left alone with their fully working system as arrogant. Pushing innocuous and undesirable GUI updates and being careless to downtime and loss of productivity is the element of arrogance here.

That's it, only one party is ever wrong.. and it's never you.

Of course this only applies to us peasants, since you are using the Enterprise version with full control over updates and can lecture us all. Thank you for your wisdom oh mighty guru, but I'll pass. 

Who said I have full control? I can choose when it decides to give me everything. That's all I get. But it's reliable.

Feel free to use the Enterprise edition yourself. Maybe even LTSC, which is still on 1809. Or at least switch to semi-annual and plan ahead. The other option is to wilfully ignore security updates, potentially leaving yourself vulnerable to loss or being exploited to harm others.

I really wish they hadn't put it together this way, but they did. Live with it responsibly or jump ship..

[Ed.Kloonk]

Microsoft partially lost the plot with Windows 8.  The idea behind Windows 8 was to make a unified experience across PCs, tablets, and phones.  It could well have worked too, but they had made the serious mistake of forcing the "Modern" UI on standard PCs instead of making it an optional feature.  Long time users rebelled and avoided version 8 like the plague.  Microsoft lost several years fighting an uphill battle to get the world to accept the new UI ideas.  Windows 10 was the capitulation.

So here we are, with Windows 10 actually looking and working not that different from Windows 7,  certainly not so bad that I can't find my way around in it. 

But then there is the telemetry and the forced updates to contend with. 

Eventually, I will have to update everything to use Windows 10, but I am not in a great hurry.  It isn't like the old days, where each new version of Windows was an obvious and huge improvement over the previous one...

More people need to realize that Windows is just a glorified program launcher.

Every other OS out there encourages the user to pimp their ride. MS always stifles it.

Looking at the number of people that complain that W10 interferes with their productivity and concentration. Provide mechanism, not policy.

[rdl]

I'm probably going to build a new PC later this year. It will have to run Windows 10 because the only reason for it is games. Because of that, unlike every new PC I've built in the past, I'm not looking forward to this one. That's pretty sad.

[SilverSolder]

I'm probably going to build a new PC later this year. It will have to run Windows 10 because the only reason for it is games. Because of that, unlike every new PC I've built in the past, I'm not looking forward to this one. That's pretty sad.

I'm in your arms and you are kissing me
but there seems to be something missing in your kissing
the love we knew is just a memory
it's turned into a comedy
The thrill is gone!
The thrill is gone!
I can see it in your eyes,
I can hear it in your sighs,
Feel your touch and realize
The thrill is gone.
The nights are cold,
For love is old.
Love was grand when love was new,
Birds were singing, skies were blue.
Now it don't appeal to you,
The thrill is gone.
This is the end, so why pretend
And let it linger on.
The thrill is gone.

[themadhippy]

I'm probably going to build a new PC later this year. It will have to run Windows 10 because the only reason for it is games

was in a similar dilemma a few years back,and bought a games console, upgrading to a newer console last year still cost less than a decent graphics card

[rdl]

The last console I bought was a SNES. The problem I have with modern consoles is that you're locked into their system. You constantly have to be online with them. I've started using GOG instead of Steam for the same reason. No DRM, download a game once, disconnect and play as much as you want.

[rsjsouza]

Don't bucket everyone that wants to be left alone with their fully working system as arrogant. Pushing innocuous and undesirable GUI updates and being careless to downtime and loss of productivity is the element of arrogance here.

That's it, only one party is ever wrong.. and it's never you.

I disagree with your generalization, not the need to keep the system free of backdoors through critical security patches - they are important and the vast majority of times they are not disruptive. The inability to control how and when the less important patches (GUI, etc) will be applied is the problem, together with the ever increasing telemetry and set/reset of user options.

Who said I have full control? I can choose when it decides to give me everything. That's all I get. But it's reliable.

So, by your own account you apply patches only when you want, not when MS does. 

Feel free to use the Enterprise edition yourself.

I don't think this license legally covers private citizens, but I may be wrong.

I really wish they hadn't put it together this way, but they did.

I totally agree with you. Unfortunately, as I mentioned before, I tried to play along a few years ago and got shafted more than once. Other alternatives are more encouraging by the day.

Unfortunately Microsoft forgot that, if you piss people off too much, they end up looking at alternatives and it becomes hard to bring them back. 

[themadhippy]

you're locked into their system

true enough,and my choice was made solely by the games i wanted to play

You constantly have to be online with them.

nope,my xbox gets  briefly connected when i buy a new game and thats all,yea it nags you occasionally but that can be ignored

[rdl]

That's not so bad then. Steam has to be running constantly when you want to play a game. Damn butthole sniffers.

[Monkeh]

That's not so bad then. Steam has to be running constantly when you want to play a game. Damn butthole sniffers.

This is a great concern why? You still on dialup, or? It does offer you the option of going into offline mode, anyway..

DRM is a thing publishers still want, especially on high profile software, and Steam and most forms of DRM on it are far less intrusive and dangerous than the stuff used for a lot of commercial and professional software.

[rdl]

Even when Steam is "offline" it still has to be running and collecting data. It will continue attempting to connect and if the internet is actually available it will transmit data anyway.

[Monkeh]

Even when Steam is "offline" it still has to be running and collecting data. It will continue attempting to connect and if the internet is actually available it will transmit data anyway.

And what is it they're collecting which is so offensive to you? They're games. Consoles will do exactly the same thing if you're using their online services to download games. Games did it before Steam came along and independently long after.