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The path to commercial product
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SiliconWizard:
It probably depends on the country, but in many countries that I know, you don't need to be a "certified" engineer to do an engineering job and design products. Only in a very restricted number of engineering fields is that true - like civil engineering, usually. But EE? Not that I know of.

As far as CE marking goes (for instance), the company takes responsibility - not any individual engineer.
Checking that employees (including engineers) are qualified for the position they are employed for is the company's responsibility as well. Again unless it's in some specific regulated fields, this usually doesn't imply anything specific - not even a degree. It's really up to the employer to define (and take responsibility) if someone is qualified or not. Additionally, if some product a company sells required compliance to any specific standard that you're not ultra familiar with (especially for the testing part), it's more than recommended to have the product tested for compliance in a specialized, external lab. Then this lab will share some of the responsibility as well - but ultimately, this is the company's responsibility (usually through the CEO, sometimes through both the CEO and the quality director in some regulated domains) and not any of its other employees.

Now if YOU are the CEO - well, this becomes YOUR responsibility, the fact you designed the product yourself being a secondary consideration.

bdunham7:

--- Quote from: nctnico on June 09, 2020, 12:56:50 pm ---
--- Quote from: EEVblog on June 09, 2020, 11:10:58 am ---Of course you'd want to have business product liability insurance.

--- End quote ---
Which will be insanely expensive. A better (usual) approach is to create a limited liability company and make sure to certify the product to adhere to all the rules and regulations. Worst case the limited liability company goes belly up. As long as if there is no neglect and/or criminal intend your personal finances will be isolated from the company. In many cases companies which develop products are split into several entities. 1) holding(s) for primary share holders / owners, 2) holding for R&D where all the IP resides, 3) holding for selling products. Several of the companies I have worked for are structured this way.

See here for a more thourough explaination:
https://alainromanlaw.com/holding-company-structure/


--- End quote ---

I don't mean to be offensive, but this is the most insanely bad legal advice you could possibly give a new business owner, for many reasons, at least here in the US where my expertise is valid.  There are several reasons, and while I don't want to get into giving specific legal advice, I would caution any new business owner not to confuse what large organizations with huge legal budgets can get way with what you, the single-member LLC owner, can expect.
bdunham7:

--- Quote from: calumk on June 09, 2020, 06:49:49 am ---I am resurrecting this very old thread, to ask a follow up question, as i stumbled upon this thread from google, so i suspect others may do the same.

I am UK/EU Based, I have a degree in Mechatronics, and In my current role, I maintain & service & commission mainly 24v electropnuematic systems, conveyer belts, sensors, actuators, on educational equipment.... But I have no Legal 'Electrician' qualification - Similar I believe to how AndyC_772 described himself above.

It seems clear to me that for domestic or industrial installation, an electrical qualification is required, but I cant seem to find good information regarding the need for a qualification when designing a product for sale, and was wondering if anyone could provide any advice, or point me in the direction of further reading.

-

So, theoretically, if I am looking at designing a new 'product' from scratch, in which (for arguments sake) I would like to include an internal, DIN mounted, 240v power supply, or some other 240v components.

My question is not regarding how to do this safely, but is regarding the legal standpoint, without being a Qualified Electrician - Is this allowed?

Again, for arguments sake, assuming that I comply with the Machine and LVD Directives, use harmonised standards, test (or self test) the product, provide the documentation, and CE mark it, does the fact that I don't have an "electrician" Qualification, stop me from being the person who "designs" a product that uses 240v?
Presumably, there is a difference in whether a qualification is required, for a product that falls below the LDV 50v threshold.

My best guess, is that I assume that I could design and manufacture it myself, but that a Qualified Electrician would be required for the "test" aspect of the CE process?

As a further thought:
I assume the person actually assembling the product, does not require any specific qualification? As that would require all factory line employees in appliance factories to have a form of electrical qualification, which I feel is unlikely.

Cheers

--- End quote ---

You need an answer from a UK-based person, or at least one familiar with UK law in this regard.  I'll just say that I would guess that your "Qualified Electrician" is equivalent to what we call a Licensed Electrician here, although the licenses are all state or local, not federal.  In our case, being a licensed electrician has nothing whatsoever to do with your products or testing or manufacturing.  The Licensed Electrician and the National Electrical Code (again, as modified and adopted locally) have a specific domain that generally starts on the customer side of the service meter or service entrance and ends at the wall socket.  Anything outside that domain, again with a few exceptions due to local law, is just not their area.  I suspect something similar is in place in the UK.
AndyC_772:

--- Quote from: calumk on June 09, 2020, 06:49:49 am ---It seems clear to me that for domestic or industrial installation, an electrical qualification is required, but I cant seem to find good information regarding the need for a qualification when designing a product for sale, and was wondering if anyone could provide any advice, or point me in the direction of further reading.

-

So, theoretically, if I am looking at designing a new 'product' from scratch, in which (for arguments sake) I would like to include an internal, DIN mounted, 240v power supply, or some other 240v components.

My question is not regarding how to do this safely, but is regarding the legal standpoint, without being a Qualified Electrician - Is this allowed?

--- End quote ---

You're quite right that it's an oddly inconsistent area.

In most instances, work on fixed electrical installations must be done by a "competent person" - though the definition of that particular term isn't nearly as clear as you might hope. Let's assume for the sake of argument that it means a qualified electrician.

If, on the other hand, you're building something that people can buy, as a complete, preassembled unit, which will plug into the mains, then you don't need any particular qualifications at all. (Think about it for a moment... the army of people working in factories churning out TVs and washing machines by the million aren't all qualified electricians).

Someone does, however, have to sign the CE declaration of conformity document, and that person takes responsibility for all those products being safe and compliant. Looks like that person might be you.


--- Quote ---Again, for arguments sake, assuming that I comply with the Machine and LVD Directives, use harmonised standards, test (or self test) the product, provide the documentation, and CE mark it, does the fact that I don't have an "electrician" Qualification, stop me from being the person who "designs" a product that uses 240v?

--- End quote ---

No, it doesn't stop you. If you're ever called upon by Trading Standards to demonstrate that your product is compliant, you'll send them a copy of your technical file which will - if you have any sense - include a test report from an accredited safety lab which shows that your design complies.

Nobody cares whether you "are an electrician" or not; they care whether the design of your product actually is safe. That's a good thing, IMHO.
EEVblog:

--- Quote from: AndyC_772 on November 02, 2012, 08:11:26 am ---When you place a product on the market in the EU, you're responsible for ensuring it has a CE mark. The CE mark is a legal document which means that you are declaring the product to be compliant to all applicable EU directives.

The applicable directives are usually those concerned with EMC (radio interference) and safety. There are many standards which apply to different types of equipment. Other standards may also apply depending on the type of equipment and its target market. Most of the equipment I design is industrial and telecommunications equipment, so it is tested to EN:60950 and EN:55022.

You don't strictly have to have your product independently tested - but you do need to maintain what's called a "technical file" which includes details of how your product is built, what the key components are in it which could affect EMC and safety, and the evidence you have to back up your assertion that the product is compliant.

--- End quote ---

For insurance purposes, and being sued etc, it all comes down to "best practices". If you have followed best practices, and haven't done anything deliberately negligent unless then you are fine, regular product liability insurance should handle any issues.
It's a bonus when you an show independent testing, or using already certified products like mains power supplies.
For a mains product you'd be crazy to design your own own mains switching supply for example unless you had no other choice.
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