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The Rigol DS1052E
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Mark_O:

--- Quote from: Simon on March 15, 2010, 05:21:35 pm ---well they are still making a profit, infact I can't really see why they bothered doing what they did, as usual economics has gotten in the way...
--- End quote ---

These comments, as well as the remainder of your ranting is complete rubbish.  You have no clue what you're talking about.  Sorry, Simon.  Just because you "can't see why", doesn't mean that there isn't a very sound reason why.  If it weren't for the ability to offer a range of products at differing price-points, many products wouldn't exist at all.  Lots of manufacturers do it every day.  And thank goodness for all of us.

When Rigol had their previous C-series out, do you actually think they built 4-DIFFERENT models, with different logic circuits, PCBs, and layouts for the 25 MHz, 40, 60 and 100 MHz units?  Nonsense.  They designed and built a single unit, with some mechanism for setting its capabilities (internal jumpers, whatever).  In this case, they're doing it with software, and left a rather large door open.  Not the smartest thing in the world to do, considering who they're selling to (economy-minded EE's and hobbyists).

Do you think that when Tek or Agilent or LeCroy or whoever make a _range_ of instruments available, they go through and put different quality components on each model, to justify the pricing differentials?  If so, you are sadly mistaken.  In this case, you're *itching about a $200 difference on 2 Rigol models.  In those other cases, we're talking about $thousands.  Of course, there they are a lot more clever about it.  ;)

- Mark
bushing:

--- Quote from: JimBeam on March 15, 2010, 12:52:36 pm ---Well, I though, you could read in between the lines, that I already did so - and when I tell you that I just closed the cover of my new DS1102E for the moment and now look for a schematic and/or pictures of the LA part of the 1xxxD, guess what this means..... ;D

--- End quote ---

Fine, fine, take all the glory and girls ... I should have listened to the voices in my head when I saw those strings looking through the firmware. ;)  Kidding ... actually, Dave himself was the first to suggest this possibility.  I'll give it a try, as soon as I get this thing put back together ... I still wonder where they're storing that info.

Actually, while I still have the thing in pieces, let me document a few things I found, in case they're useful to someone later --


* I dunno what's actually stored on that 24LC04; the device will power on without it attached to the board, but it hangs at the loading screen.
* There's an 8-pin card edge connector on the board, directly adjacent to the EEPROM.  I had hoped that it was a factory programming interface for that EEPROM, but instead it's something quite different:  It's the SPI master bus, and you could connect a SPI flash chip to it and the Blackfin would boot from it (according to the datasheet).  If we number the pins as 1 <notch> 2 3 4 on the top and 5 6 7 <notch> 8 on the bottom, then the pins appear to be SCK <notch> MISO GND MOSI / PF2 Vcc GND <notch> BMODE0.  BMODE1 is shorted to Vcc; pull BMODE0 to ground to enable booting from external SPI flash.  This is probably how they program the units in the factory, and could be used to recover from a bad firmware flash.
* BMODE0 is pulled to Vcc internally through a 10K resistor, which means that normally it boots from another SPI master in the system -- not the 8MB NOR flash as I expected.  Very odd.  Anyone know how this thing boots?  (It still may be the case that the 4MB of firmware is stored in the first half of the NOR flash, but there has to be something shoving a boot stub to this thing over SPI or the datasheet is lying.  I guess the second 4MB of the NOR flash could be used for the internal waveform storage, as well as the serial number and model number.)
* There's also a (presumably) perfectly usable JTAG port for the Blackfin -- pinout seems to be (in order from 1-14) Vref !EMU <empty> GND GND TMS GND TCK GND !TRST GND TDI GND TDO, but I haven't tried it.
* The six-pin header near the Altera chip is the programming header for the Lattice CPLD; I didn't bother trying it, presumably it's fused off.
Lemme know if you find those LA schematics, please. :)
rf-loop:
Here is picture about RigolDS1102E and DS1052Et.

Sorry pictures quality is not good becouse fast napshot...

Both Rigol get same signal from HP8161A with double output.
(outputs are not exactly same but well enough for this purpose)

Signal risetime is <1,3ns

As you can see in pictures, 1052 and 1102 have now same risetime (ans simple it means also very much same BW)
Later I will test with 70ps pulse and try look more deep.

With 10kHz 300mVp-p both scope show 300 (exactly 302) mVp-p. And same level with 100MHz. 1102, 240mVp-p ; 1052mod, 242mVp-p (note that I have also find that 1052mod have littlebit more noise and I measure p-p!) Bot measured realtime and 8 average (sinx "fake" of course OFF). If not noise issue these both looks nearly same. (some now unknown small TRIG difference in special situations)

Do not look exactly numbers in Rigol display on these pictures, there are all time variations so randomly these numbers on the display just at shutter open time in camera, in real both of scopes roll same numbers randomly).

You can see that modified 1052 have some more noise what can better see in infinite persist display. (I have not check where from noise is coming... remember that 1052 and 1102 front end is also different!)

First there is infinite persist and Equaltime sampling, display dots. Both scopes are started exactly same time.
Bottom pictures Equtime and average 32, display lines.

Here you can download this picture (download gives better quality and you can also read Rigol display):
http://www.box.net/shared/nnclbrinvs

Also I measure BW with normal sin signal. Looks like same. (very small differencies)

I find some small differency in trig quality but it need also more investigations..

In this time I personally hope that peoples do NOT make big noise about this... specially in many different internet stores "review" articles.  Rigol is not stupid (world #2 in scopes)... and maybe they make some not so nice things... and it means money.
JimBeam:

--- Quote from: bushing on March 16, 2010, 03:55:34 am ---Fine, fine, take all the glory and girls ...

--- End quote ---
You can have one of mine  :D


--- Quote from: bushing on March 16, 2010, 03:55:34 am ---I still wonder where they're storing that info.

--- End quote ---
I still think it is the EEPROM - in a scrambled way.


--- Quote from: bushing on March 16, 2010, 03:55:34 am ---I dunno what's actually stored on that 24LC04; the device will power on without it attached to the board, but it hangs at the loading screen.[/li][/list]

--- End quote ---
And that's why I think, the model info is stored in it - the rigol simply doesn't know who he is without it...


--- Quote from: bushing on March 16, 2010, 03:55:34 am ---There's an 8-pin card edge connector on the board, directly adjacent to the EEPROM.  I had hoped that it was a factory programming interface for that EEPROM, but instead it's something quite different:  It's the SPI master bus, and you could connect a SPI flash chip to it and the Blackfin would boot from it (according to the datasheet).  If we number the pins as 1 <notch> 2 3 4 on the top and 5 6 7 <notch> 8 on the bottom, then the pins appear to be SCK <notch> MISO GND MOSI / PF2 Vcc GND <notch> BMODE0.  BMODE1 is shorted to Vcc; pull BMODE0 to ground to enable booting from external SPI flash.  This is probably how they program the units in the factory, and could be used to recover from a bad firmware flash.

--- End quote ---
Ahhh, that was one of the remaining secrets I encountered the last days.... Thanks for demystifying!


--- Quote from: bushing on March 16, 2010, 03:55:34 am ---There's also a (presumably) perfectly usable JTAG port for the Blackfin -- pinout seems to be (in order from 1-14) Vref !EMU <empty> GND GND TMS GND TCK GND !TRST GND TDI GND TDO, but I haven't tried it.

--- End quote ---
And another think I was about to find out.


--- Quote from: bushing on March 16, 2010, 03:55:34 am ---The six-pin header near the Altera chip is the programming header for the Lattice CPLD; I didn't bother trying it, presumably it's fused off.

--- End quote ---
You're perfect - that was the last on my list!  ;D


--- Quote from: bushing on March 16, 2010, 03:55:34 am ---Lemme know if you find those LA schematics, please. :)

--- End quote ---
With the biggest pleasure!

Btw., does anyone have photos from the cable within the 1102 that goes from the 40-pin header to the front? Is it really only a cable? What pinning (Header is 40 pin, connector is 68 pin)? And also are there photos from connector area on the bottom side of the PCB in the LA adapter box?

Mark_O:

--- Quote from: bushing on March 16, 2010, 03:55:34 am ---Fine, fine, take all the glory and girls...
--- End quote ---

LMAO.  If only it were so easy.  ;)  Thanks for all the details on the SPI interface.  That's good stuff.


--- Quote ---Lemme know if you find those LA schematics, please. :)
--- End quote ---

Do you mean these schematics that Trevor came up with, over a year ago? 

- Mark
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