EEVblog Electronics Community Forum

General => General Chat => Topic started by: Simon on October 17, 2009, 02:14:09 pm

Title: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on October 17, 2009, 02:14:09 pm
Well like many I seized the moment when seeing a 50 MHz scope going for just £ 239 on ebay, I was unaware of the samples per second rate and its importance at the time but it seems that I got very good value for money for a very nice peice of kit..... well so I thought

It seems that there is a lot of noise on the trace, I have always assumed this to be because the power supply is not screened (naturally I tossed the warranty out of the window and opened it), however on screening the SMPS with tin foil stuck to cardboard not much changed, I've had a slight improvement after also taping a peice of tin foil on top of the input screening box so that it covers the analog support circuitry behind it (refer to daves video number 37 I think) but the interferance remains.

Its rather unusual because as I increase the V/div the Vpp of the interfearance also increases effectivly remaining about the same size on the screen as all V/div settings, now that I have added screening its improved slighty and at 100 mV/div and above its less than at 20 and 50 mV/div (X10 input setting) so bearable.

Has anyone else had this ? or have comments ? I can provide photos of my screening later
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: kc1980 on October 18, 2009, 09:30:43 am
Bump.  I hope someone answers this.  I have an itchy finger on a hair trigger for this Ebay purchase...if ya know what I mean.  (pls take my credit cards away from me)
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: johnnyk126 on October 18, 2009, 03:57:53 pm
In the coments below episode #37 Dave posted few pictures of noise on Rigol and Tektronix. He says that this noise is typical for this class of scope.
http://www.eevblog.com/2009/10/12/eevblog-37-rigol-ds1052e-oscilloscope-teardown/

It is good to know that some DIY shielding can improve performance. Can you post some pictures?
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on October 18, 2009, 04:08:30 pm
right I'm reasured now, yes my interferance is the same as the pics dave put up (Thanks Dave), I'll take some pictures of my shielding and post them later,

I think your best bet is to put the sheet of foil taped to the input screen box over the circuitry behind it first and see if it makes a difference, amazinly screening the SMPS made no difference but I want to check that the foil is connected to the chasis
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on October 18, 2009, 08:07:31 pm
Right pics time:

http://www.simonsphotography.org.uk/ebay/scope1.JPG
http://www.simonsphotography.org.uk/ebay/scope2.JPG

The most important part is the bit of foil stuck to the top of the input screened box, the bit of foil clad cardboard made little to no difference at all, the screws holding the SMPS down will need to be changed for longer ones (i used the ones holding the back on at the top) as the cardboard adds thikness, make sure the foil is connected to the chasis this should happen when screwed down to the mounting pillars but to make sure I nicked the nut and bolt holding the ac input socket to the case and taped a peice of wire to the foild and bolted the other end to the top of the case, again little to no effect. I think the foil around the power sire had little effect to.

what opinion would you guys have on removing the psu completely from the scope and making it external ? only problem is there is a second power wire going into the back of the screen and there are so many power wires, and no they are not all in parralel only some, its like somwe of the power supply is on the scope board RIGHT NEXT TO THE ANALOG SUPPORT CIRCUITRY, very clever rigol, you had the chance to make a perfect scope and flunked it !
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on October 18, 2009, 08:17:22 pm
another thing about the Rigol DS1052E, there is a "bandwidth limit" function (accessed from the channel menu) that limits the bandwidth to 20 MHz

now 10 ADCs at 100 MHz = 1 Gs/s but for 20 MHz and the same resolution thats 10 ADCs at 40 MHz..... to be or not to be overclocked ??? or with the liomit on 20 MHz is it still 1 Gs/s ? it does say something about the limit preventing artefacs....
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: EEVblog on October 19, 2009, 01:24:37 am
If it's the same level as the noise on other units and other brands, what's wrong with that?
If you need ultra low noise performance then I'd recommend an analog scope.
I get similar noise on our $5000 300MHz Tektronix DSO here at work.
I've posted some more photos of a TDS3032B and TDS1012B http://www.eevblog.com/images/ (http://www.eevblog.com/images/)
Turning on the averaging function might help reduce it for repetitive signals.

Removing the supply would be crazy, you lose the nice compact portability of the unit. And it will likely not help at all. The noise is likely just inherent in the analog front end and/or associated signal path grounds and/or supplies and ADC sampling system.

Just learn to be at one with your scope sampling noise!
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on October 19, 2009, 05:38:02 am


Just learn to be at one with your scope sampling noise!

Yea your right, I'm expecting the performance of a decent analog scope from a cheap digital scope, pity i sold on the analog one but then I needed that money
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: TrentO on October 22, 2009, 05:26:46 am
Oh yeah?!! I got all you guys beat!

I'm the a-hole who bought a Rigol just to troubleshoot a hand-me-down Tektronix analog CRO, which I'm probably not going to use a whole lot anyway.

I know more about divider circuits and switching matrices now, than I ever cared to know!

Simon, you keep on truckin' -- let me know when you're done potting the whole thing.

-Trent

Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on October 22, 2009, 06:57:14 am
thats as much as I've done and as much as I can do i think ! do remember to cut a slot for the psu wires to pass through and BLOCK all case holes with tape with the exception of the ones over the psu otherwise there will be no air flow and you will overheat the psu, I didn't bother to block the holes at the base of the unit to make sure the scopes board gets some airflow too.

the other thing to remember is being 8 bit there will be a +-1 bit uncertainty, this will show up in anycase as a 3 pixel thick line, just the nature of thr beast, personally I can't understand why Rigol did not screen all of the analog circuitry
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: EEVblog on October 22, 2009, 09:16:13 pm
the other thing to remember is being 8 bit there will be a +-1 bit uncertainty, this will show up in any case as a 3 pixel thick line, just the nature of the beast, personally I can't understand why Rigol did not screen all of the analog circuitry

Because it most likely would have done nothing. They shielded what was important, the high impedance analog front end.
The support circuitry is much lower impedance so does not need the same shielding.
Remember also that noise can be conducted, not just electromagnetically and capacitively coupled.
That noise isn't coming from the switching regulator, you can shield it all you want it's not going to do a thing.
When the cheap Rigol has the same noise floor as a $5000+ Tektronix, you know something a lot more complicated than simple PSU noise and shielding is at play here.
If you wanted to stop all noise from that supply, you would have to not only magnetically shield it (al-foil does nothing in this respect, you need mu-metal), but also put suitable chokes on all the wires coming out of it. But you are chasing a red-herring with the supply.

Dave.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on October 22, 2009, 10:25:01 pm
Dave, whats mu metal ?

I did notice that screening the supply made practically no difference at all, personally to anyone wanting to have a go I'd say just inser the foil above the analog support circuitry, this is quik and easy: just cut a sheet of foil of appropriate size and tape it to the analog input box, if you use decently thick foil (15 um) then it will support itself.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: EEVblog on October 22, 2009, 11:53:22 pm
Dave, whats mu metal ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu-metal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu-metal)

Regular metal shields only stop electric fields, not magnetic fields.

Dave.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on October 23, 2009, 06:39:24 am
thats interesting, where do I get this stuff, what sort of thickness does it come in ? if this is the answer thats probably why the scope (being quite cheap) was not sheilded in the first place because of the exspense of setting it all up.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Dago on October 25, 2009, 02:09:50 pm
thats interesting, where do I get this stuff, what sort of thickness does it come in ? if this is the answer thats probably why the scope (being quite cheap) was not sheilded in the first place because of the exspense of setting it all up.

The reason why it was not done was because it will not help, like Dave said. You could prolly cast every component invidually in mu-metal and you'd still get noise, just get over it :P Not all noise comes from external sources, it can be thermal noise, sampling noise etc.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on October 25, 2009, 03:53:48 pm
yes I know, but the fact that putting foil over the analog support circuitry helped a little proves that I've spotted a little something, I'm quite happy to throw some metal around the psu and a little beyond if it cuts the noise in half, from what I gather they didn't bother because it was already "good enough" although could be made better, being a QC inspector I'm well aware of the fact that sometimes some quality or other factor is not made to be as good as it could be because in the scope of the thing its almost irrelevant but a big difference in cost, if rigol's aim was to make a scope as good as anyone elses then they achieved their objective, to make it better meant more money and not really making more sales because its already a very good competitor,
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: dexters_lab on October 27, 2009, 06:18:49 pm
just browsed in here after missing out on a discounted uni-trend scope, did some looking around and found this rigol and the debacle about the overclocked adc's and the apparent potential to be modded for full 100mhz bandwidth.

i generally buy products that have been dissected, analysed and modded, so i love this kinda thing.

so i'm at ebay with my finger on the BIN button gambling that someone will work out the hack... do i click? :D
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Mastro Gippo on October 28, 2009, 09:10:21 am
Click it, you won't regret it! I'm really happy with mine, and I'm pretty sure everyone here is of the same opinion.  ;) (well, it all depends on your needs really...)
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: EEVblog on October 28, 2009, 10:12:29 am
Yeah, I don't think you'll regret clicking either.
The Rigol isn't a mid or high end scope that's for sure, so don't expect miracles, but the value for money is second to none, even without a 100MHz mod.

Dave.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: dexters_lab on October 28, 2009, 03:14:23 pm
cool, thanks guys...

i have a few scopes allready, all inexpensive ones; instek grs-6052 (3 year old analog/digital), gould 1421 (mid 80s analog/digital) and a cheapy velleman hps-10 handheld

the gould is going to be sold off to part pay for the new rigol, still in two minds if i should sell the instek as well, but something tells me it's handy to have an analog scope to hand sometimes ???
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on October 28, 2009, 05:47:40 pm
Keep 1 analogue scope, i sold my Gould300 to part pay for the Rigol DS1052E and boy have I regreted it, if your in a situation where no noise is essential or its a very small signal you will need that analogue scope, my Rigol will probably not take me lower than a signal of 100 mV because at that point the inherent noise of the scope (like any other digital scope) will become part of your signal.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: bmwm3edward on October 29, 2009, 07:04:04 am
I joined the Rigol Bandwagon, in part from Dave's review.  I'm still learning how to use the single-shot features for capturing digital signals.  I'd love to see a tutorial on how to use it to troubleshoot things like SPI buses, etc.   I'm learning, but Dave's experience (and all of yours) sure cuts the learning curve down.  I've been in the software business for 15 years (still work for the evil empire) and I know code and the business side of it very well, but hardware and EE side is new (and VERY interesting) to me.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: KuchateK on October 29, 2009, 02:10:15 pm
I'd love to see a tutorial on how to use it to troubleshoot things like SPI buses, etc.   I'm learning, but Dave's experience (and all of yours) sure cuts the learning curve down.
I would also like to see this.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: TrentO on October 29, 2009, 08:00:42 pm
I got my Rigol 1052E today, ordered it from the HappySeeds dudes eight days prior, with shipping from China to the Central Valley of California. Interestingly enough, [continuous] checking on the EMS tracking system showed that  my parcel was stuck in customs at LAX for four days, and was only released about eight hours ago.

I know that the USPS is pretty good, but I doubt that they got it from LAX customs to my door in eight hours-- and I wasn't shipping flux-capacitors or dark matter (of which every pound weighs 10,000 pounds.)

I think they padded the delivery time and defaulted the blame on customs. But either way, eight-full days from button click to my door-- not bad at all.

It smells like crap-- like burnt plastic, but it looks, and so far, functions GREAT!

And you KNOW WHAT?-- I'm gonna take it apart right now!  <--- what a nut-job, huh?

Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: flolic on October 29, 2009, 09:23:51 pm
But either way, eight-full days from button click to my door-- not bad at all.

You lucky man, according to EMS shipping number, my DS1102E is stuck in GUANGZHOU China from October 23rd...  >:(
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: TrentO on October 29, 2009, 10:12:15 pm
Okay-- so I took the cover off--

Here are some tips--

1. The power button has to come off first! I removed it by slipping a 1.5mm Allen (hex) key between the adjacent cooling slots and under the power button, then pulling straight up with a pair of pliers. It took about 18 lbs. of force to remove it.

2. There is a external-case colored shim between the power connector and the external case. Gently pry between this shim and the external case to get past it-- the shim 'stays' there on the power supply, although it's loose. I have a really big (8M-pixel) picture, if anyone wants to see it. Do not remove the screws holding the power receptacle on-- otherwise, you'll have to spend time looking for the nut that used to be on the other side for no reason. I learned this one the hard way.

3. I didn't bother trying to save the "warranty void if broken" sticker-- for $400 bucks I didn't care so much. I used a commercial product called "OOPS!" to remove the "void" residue.

It took me about 10 minutes to figure out how to get things apart, without any scratches or signs of dis-assembly, apart from ruining the warranty sticker.

As for that burnt plastic smell-- I know where it comes from! They are apparently much more aggressive with the sanding now-- the ADC's and the same IC's in the analog-section (under the shielding) have been mechanically ground off, probably with some kind of rotary (Dremel) tool. There was plastic dust EVERYWHERE! This kind of shit really pisses me off-- Couldn't they vacuum afterwards? Using just your finger, you could write your initials. Also, being the sweaty-bastard that I am, I used surgical gloves during dis-assembly. It turns out, there was "No NEED" for that-- fingerprints, again, EVERYWHERE!  Also-- super cheap assembly hardware-- screws and the like.

And now for things of importance-- any perceivable difference between my 1052E, Dave's unit, and that other guy's 1102 (who's pissed off about the (re-) soldering job.) And YES there is difference. My unit, S/N: DS1ED113907XXX looks MORE like the 1102, than Dave's 1052. If you look at the analog section in the photographs provided by Dave, there is a 4-pin SMT relay labeled "Cosmo Y214S," right next to the BNC input. On my unit, that is replaced by a bigger relay exactly like that "NEC UD2-4," not too far from it. If I recall correctly-- that other guy's 1102 also has the bigger relay. Could this be the major functional difference that we all seek? Maybe not, but it would be interesting to note when they changed this and why. Anybody have a 100Mhz function generator that I could borrow for a day?

There also seems to be a 'repair' of sorts on the LCD controller IC-- someone (with really steady hands) soldered a piece of wirewrap wire between two points on that IC, and then glued the wire to the top of the IC.

Final note: I know that $400 US is a great price for a O-scope with these capabilities and features-- but I have not seen a final assembly this bad on anything that cost more that 10 bucks. Looking at the inside of my 28-year old Tektronix, you know that dudes/chicks with white-cotton gloves put that baby together in a 'clean' environment.

Pardon me while I go and bust-out the vacuum cleaner....

-Trent "the kinda guy that would (probably) also jump out of a perfectly good airplane" O.

P.S.: Note to the Rigol dudes that are undoubtedly reading this-- pick quality-control back up-- we notice.





 
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: flolic on October 29, 2009, 10:44:24 pm
Thanks for the tips, TrentO!
Few hi res pics of the inside would be nice, especially "canned" analog section. I will take apart my 100MHz scope when it arrive, so that we can make a comparison  ;)

Btw you can get rid of the plastic dust with the help of compressed air, DO NOT use vacuum cleaner!
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: TrentO on October 29, 2009, 11:31:22 pm
flolic-- no vacuum cleaner, roger that. I just left it for now and put it back together. It still works.  ;D

I just used it to troubleshoot my Tektronix 2445.

I'll take it apart again for close-ups of the analog front-end, probably tonight.

I wouldn't worry about the EMS tracking thing-- It's total B.S.-- according to the USPS shipping label on the box, they got it an hour-and-a-half after it reached customs. EMS claims that customs held on to it for three days. I think someone at EMS is behind on the manual data entry.

It all worked out, but they're definitely not a FedEx, UPS, DHL, or even USPS.

Now actually having done something with it-- the fan is definitely noisy-- more so than most PC's, except for those on hi-flow-gamer CPU's. I'm also a big fan (no pun intended) of the "Modern" color-scheme/skin. And it's FAST!

Speaking of hi-flow-gamer CPU's/PC's-- I was thinking about changing that clock crystal to a 200Mhz one, and liquid-cooling that sucker....

-Trent

Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: EEVblog on October 30, 2009, 01:55:40 am
@ TrentO
It quite amazing the difference. My unit is assembled very well indeed. No dust, no bad solder joints, no crap quality assembly hardware, no mode wires etc.
Please post the pics!

Dave.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: TrentO on October 30, 2009, 03:47:27 am
Ok-- I took it down to the individual components (only requiring one de-soldering operation,) took a few photos with my crap 'point-and-shoot' Kodak, and reassembled. And it still works!  ;D ;D

Not as bad as trying to take apart an HP-48 calculator, but still, IT's NOT (necessarily) EASY!!!

Additional dis-assembly tips--

Tools you'll need-- 1. T10 Torx screwdriver  2. T15 Torx screwdriver  (both narrow shaft- not the bit-based screwdrivers) 3. Electrical tape  4. 1.5mm "L" Allen/Hex-key  5. Soldering Iron  6. Desoldering pump or braid.  7. Small pliers  8. 14mm wrench (not socket) small adjustable wrench might be okay.

Basic steps--

1. Remove front panel knobs (make a 3" loop of electrical tape, and roll into a doughnut shape, then wrap around the inner shaft of each knob, brace the top of each knob with your other hand (to ensure that the force is axial to the shaft) then pull-- it takes about 20lbs of force to pull each knob.) I would seriously recommend against simply prying the buttons off-- you'll either damage the label-face, or damage the bottom of the knob, or worse-- damage the rotary encoders themselves. Note here-- the rotary encoders appear to be consumer-grade Alps units.

2. Remove the power switch with the allen-key and pliers, via the vent adjacent to the switch. Stabilize the switch button with your other hand here, as well, to ensure that the forces are on the same axis as the motion of the switch.

3. Remove case screws (qty 4). The ones under the handle are removable with the handle held at ~45deg-- trying to remove the handle first would most likely break it.

4. While pushing in the brown-colored power receptacle bezel (LIGHT pressure,) pull the cover off. Don't pry the cover over the black power receptacle with a screwdriver-- no need to-- it will only damage the case or bezel.

5. Remove the DB-9 jack screws. Note to Rigol-dudes-- Lock-Tite (blue) might make sense here-- I hate it when the jack screw comes off with the cable!

6. Remove the back shield-panel.

7. Remove the top shield-panel.

8. Remove the Fan.

9. Remove the power supply-- for me, unplugging the power cable to the main board took the most amount of time-- it's on there pretty good. Careful with the backlight connection-- there's not much room to disconnect that cable-- a 'third hand' might be helpful here.

10. Remove the five screws holding the front panel/bezel. Careful with the rubber overlay, don't touch the contact points.

11. Desolder the chassis to USB connector ground 'strap.'

12. Unscrew the 14mm nuts holding the panel-BNC connectors.

12.5 'unplug' the flex-pcb connections to the LCD and front panel-- the back-portion of each pcb connection lifts-up.

13. Unscrew and remove the main board. There you go!  Note-- there are two empty screw holes adjacent to the vacant header-pin locations. If you 'run out' of screws, look here. I believe these are vacant to accept a daughter-card of some kind. Logic probe?

14 Reverse the above to reassemble.


Caution and warning points-- 1. ESD sensitive device!!!  2. "Swift, but gentle" motions pulling on the power button and front-panel knobs.  3. Careful not to put too much pressure on the front knobs/nubs when the unit is face-down on your workbench.  4. Careful not to scratch the LCD face with loose crap on your workbench.  5. Careful not to burn a hole in anything plastic, while playing "light-sabre" with your soldering iron.

Thumbs up to Rigol for following Tektronix's lead, and making this an essentially Torx-screw only product. That Philips-guy can bite-me... The JIS dudes can bite-me even harder.

I take no responsibility for any damage that you may incur trying to execute the above steps. I don't think Dave would either.

Personalized assistance will be available to the owners of 1102 C/D/E's in exchange for detailed photos (of the O-scope innards, NOT of yourself.)

-Trent
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: TrentO on October 30, 2009, 03:53:15 am
I'm emailing Dave the pictures of the analog section from my 1052E-- they're 2MB in size, and Dave's server only accepts 128KB attachments. Perhaps he can post them here, or somewhere? Don't expect too much-- I don't have a pro-grade macro-lens setup.

Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: desolatordan on October 30, 2009, 04:13:15 am
I'm emailing Dave the pictures of the analog section from my 1052E-- they're 2MB in size, and Dave's server only accepts 128KB attachments. Perhaps he can post them here, or somewhere? Don't expect too much-- I don't have a pro-grade macro-lens setup.



http://imgur.com/ or http://imageshack.us/
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: TrentO on October 30, 2009, 04:31:13 am
Thank you, DesolatorDan.

Wow this whole Internet thing is amazing. Or... I'm just super lazy. Hey I just spent the last three hours taking apart my Rigol and discussing the steps! Cut me some slack.

The Analog (Analogue) Section-- (note the grey plastic residue all-over the place.)
http://imgur.com/WMGGU.jpg

The 'backside' of the card-- (fingerprints and plastic reside are most visible here.)
http://imgur.com/kkECO.jpg

Both the fingerprints and plastic residue are embedded in flux--wiping/blowing will not dislodge them. And it wasn't me-- I was wearing surgical gloves the whole time!

Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: desolatordan on October 30, 2009, 05:06:24 am
Thanks for the tips, TrentO!
Few hi res pics of the inside would be nice, especially "canned" analog section. I will take apart my 100MHz scope when it arrive, so that we can make a comparison  ;)

Btw you can get rid of the plastic dust with the help of compressed air, DO NOT use vacuum cleaner!

Why wouldn't you want to use a vacuum cleaner? Can it cause static buildup or something? Or just ineffective?
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: flolic on October 30, 2009, 07:15:34 am
Vacuum cleaner is ineffective, can cause ESD damage and you can very easily tear off some small SMT component if you accidentally touch PCB.
OTOH compressed air is joy to use, especially if it is from bigger size unit (that portable "briefcase" size air compressors without tank is no-go...). Canned air can be used too, but is not that effective as the real stuff.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on October 30, 2009, 07:43:44 am
flolic-- no vacuum cleaner, roger that. I just left it for now and put it back together. It still works.  ;D

I just used it to troubleshoot my Tektronix 2445.

I'll take it apart again for close-ups of the analog front-end, probably tonight.

I wouldn't worry about the EMS tracking thing-- It's total B.S.-- according to the USPS shipping label on the box, they got it an hour-and-a-half after it reached customs. EMS claims that customs held on to it for three days. I think someone at EMS is behind on the manual data entry.

It all worked out, but they're definitely not a FedEx, UPS, DHL, or even USPS.

Now actually having done something with it-- the fan is definitely noisy-- more so than most PC's, except for those on hi-flow-gamer CPU's. I'm also a big fan (no pun intended) of the "Modern" color-scheme/skin. And it's FAST!

Speaking of hi-flow-gamer CPU's/PC's-- I was thinking about changing that clock crystal to a 200Mhz one, and liquid-cooling that sucker....

-Trent



Likewise mine suposedly spent 3 days in customs in the UK yea right but this end was "out for delivery" on thursday night ! but did not get it till the monday... we were having postal striles here in the uk. I still say that a metal sheild around the supply would not go amiss, like others said its a great scope but clearly a CHEAP build
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: TrentO on October 31, 2009, 08:07:20 am
Vacuum cleaner is ineffective, can cause ESD damage and you can very easily tear off some small SMT component if you accidentally touch PCB.
OTOH compressed air is joy to use, especially if it is from bigger size unit (that portable "briefcase" size air compressors without tank is no-go...). Canned air can be used too, but is not that effective as the real stuff.

I recall, "back in the day," when I used to install/maintain telco equipment, that we had an 3M ESD-safe vacuum cleaner that was kinda pricey for something that simply sucked air... A single replacement filter was more than a single day's pay-- that unit was supposedly useful for cleaning board-level stuff without fear of zapping anything.

I'm leaving my Rigol 'as-is' to remind me to buy the LeCroy or Tektronix O-scope next time.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: GeekGirl on October 31, 2009, 10:10:19 am

I'm leaving my Rigol 'as-is' to remind me to buy the LeCroy or Tektronix O-scope next time.


Shhhhhsssss, you will start us all drooling mentioning the L word ;)
Title: Comparisons to a Tektronix TDS-220
Post by: TrentO on November 03, 2009, 12:49:28 am
I just took delivery of a used Tektronix TDS-220, from a shady-looking character on eBay.

After having spent the last hour-or-so playing with it... I then decided to TAKE IT APAHT!

Initial observations, versus the Rigol DS-1052E--

1. The TDS-220 is a noticeably lighter-- maybe 2/3's the weight of the Rigol. Light is good. But my anxiety over losing either unit to a fall off-of my bench is high. (I have a hole pre-dug in my backyard just in case the cat knocks it over.)
2. The Rigol actually feels sturdier and more solid than the Tektronix.
3. The spinning action of the dials actually feel better on the Rigol, especially with the tactile 'bumps' on the v/div knobs.
4. The knobs themselves are better on the Tektronix-- the Rigol knobs are all a little off-axis, which causes the spin to be off-axis. (Shitty molding-job on the knobs-- the rotary encoders are good units.)
5. Color display on the Rigol, versus monochrome on the Tektronix-- I would choose color, of course! Much easier on the eyes.
6. Teeny-tiny sample depth on the Tektronix. Massive sample depth on the Rigol, but you need to navigate a menu to activate it.
7. Back-lit buttons on the Rigol, not lit on the Tektronix. Excellent for low-light environments. However, I find the bright-red run/stop button, when stopped, to be very annoying. It's simply too bright.
8.  No relays clicking (ever) on the Tektronix. Better for those days when you decide to work on your electronics projects in bed, without fear of waking your spouse.
9. More dedicated buttons on the Tektronix, in more 'traditional' locations. I did not have to read the manual to understand the basic operation of the Tektronix-- function is very much like the CRT analog oscilloscopes of yore. It took a fair amount of time to understand the Rigol-- a lot of nested menus.
10. USB-stick and USB-pc interface on the Rigol-- No challenge here-- advantage definitely Rigol.
11. NO output on my 'new' Tektronix-- I don't have the interface module.
12. The Rigol is faster on the display and menu navigation. However, there is less need to use the menus on the Tektronix... So in use, the Tektronix is faster and more convenient (for me.)
14. There appears to be MORE noise on the low v/div on the Tektronix than the Rigol. (Take that, Simon!)
15. Better rubber feet on the Tektronix-- My Rigol has harder rubber feet that don't grip very well. It slides-around more readily.

Observations after taking it apart--

1. The design is more efficient on the Tektronix--very little shielding in use, far less cluttered mainboard.
2. Although the interior plastic on the Tektronix is metalized, there is no over-all metal shielding-can like the rigol.
3. As expected, the build quality is higher on the Tektronix-- built by techs with cotton gloves, no after-the-fact soldering, no fingerprints, etc. In fact, my used Tektronix looks cleaner and newer on the inside that my new Rigol!
4. Much easier to take apart the Tektronix, than the Rigol-- less than a minute for the Tektronix, more than 1/2-hour (the first time) for the Rigol.
5. Better hardware, better materials on the Tektronix, but the Tektronix but it feels like an older design-- like the difference between a high-end VHS-VCR versus a cheap Blue-Ray player.
6. No rust after 7+ years on the Tektronix, but the shielding (edges) are already rusting on the new Rigol.
7. MOST IMPORTANTLY-- no loud-ass fan on the Tektronix.

http://imgur.com/9td8k.jpg (http://imgur.com/9td8k.jpg)


So Trent's final analysis--
1. Advantage Rigol 1052E!  For all of its faults, $400 US ain't bad, especially for all those great features!
2. HOWEVER-- what I'll probably end-up using more-- the Tektronix TDS-220, because-- 1.) it's SILENT, and I wouldn't have to clean it like I do with my PC's every year; 2.) it's more convenient to use, especially for quick measurements, where I don't need to document the results of my tests.
3. What I'd actually tell other EE-types (and EE-groupie chicks) I use-- the Tektronix TDS-220. The intrinsic confidence is higher with the Tektronix. I would never tell the guys at the EE-Peninsula Club (downtown) that I actually own a Rigol.
4. IF I could only have ONE, I would probably choose the Rigol 1052E.... Or ditch both and get a new LeCroy WaveAce 212.  ;)

-Trent

Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on November 03, 2009, 07:47:32 am
you confirm my impression of the rigol, very good for the money but built cheaply, I suppose as always the move from analogue to digital is a bumpy one and not as straight foward as I would have hoped. but remember if for the sake of a bit more shielding it could have been better its a pity they didn't for another tenner,
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: TrentO on November 03, 2009, 11:40:57 am
Simon,

After spending five hours troubleshooting an RS-232/UART issue (it turns out it was a software error in Lucio Di Jasio's Programming 32-bit Microcontrollers in C" book,) I must say that the Tektronix is much more friendly to those used to analog scopes. I validated my hardware concerns using the Tektronix immediately; trying to figure out the triggering modes on the Rigol took a bit more time. However, having done so, I have a greater appreciation for the capabilities of the Rigol. Still, it just isn't as intuitive to use as the TDS-220. As the even the newer Tektronix scopes seem maintain the same function keys, I think I'm beginning to really SEE what is meant by the expression-- "Tektronix really knows how to make a good scope." The business-oriented side of me says that Rigol had to make their scopes act and feel sufficiently different from Tektronix, so that they wouldn't get sued. The frosted side of me says that the Rigol dev team went features-crazy and stuffed this baby beyond the limit of what's practical in a 12" x 6" x 5" device. I hate to think what I (might) miss in future troubleshooting episodes, simply by fact of not being familiar with my gear. My new tagline for Tektronix: "Tektronix-- for EE's that don't wanna F*ck around!"

Either way-- I'm soooo happy with my decision to forsake the analog-scope world! If you're getting into the logic-based stuff, there's just no other way.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: EEVblog on November 04, 2009, 11:22:47 pm
With regards to the Rigol fan, I recon it can probably be disconnected or dropped in speed, my unit doesn't even get warm.

With regards to the "cheap" construction of the Rigol, I have to disagree. My unit has a top class soldering job, and the component quality is top class also, no cheap asian substitutes. And the design and layout is excellent. Although it appears the soldering quality does vary between units as people are saying.
Even factoring in questionable soldering the quality on some units, the Rigol is far from being a "cheap" design.

There is no doubting the excellent usability of the TDS-210 series, that is why it's been the industries most popular digital scope from day one. It just shits me that more than decade later, and after several model improvements, the base model unit (TDS-1000B/2000B) STILL has a shitty 2.5KB memory!
They are clearly protecting the market for their mid range units.

Rigol on the other have no such hang-up's so you get 15K/1MB even on the bottom of the range unit.

Dave.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: TrentO on November 05, 2009, 08:53:26 am
I only wish that they used chrome-plated steel, or steel that was galvanized after the stamping process, NOT shaved the IC's (or at least cleaned up after themselves) and limited the fingerprints during manufacturing. To me, its a shame that they degraded their product so late in the process by cutting-corners like this-- I think they're only saving about $5.00 per unit by doing so. It works well for me so far, although the fan may take a little getting used to.


-Trent
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: EEVblog on November 05, 2009, 11:25:29 pm
For those interested:
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.30573 (http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.30573)
$412 with Free shipping worldwide.
That's the cheapest you can get it in Oz at least I believe.

Dave.
Title: Maybe I just don't F'n get it?!
Post by: TrentO on November 06, 2009, 01:26:10 am
I have been called "bank of dumb-shit" before, so someone PLEASE help me with this!!!

But first, a short preface-- I figured that by essentially 'screwing around,' and trying to measure everything in sight, would help me to learn the intricacies of using my new Rigol and, to a lesser extent my (new to me) Tektronix TDS-220. I had a piece of really high-end networking equipment-- a layer 3-7 intrusion prevention appliance with GigE capability that I took the cover off today, to see what was inside-- a large number of FPGA's, network processors and what not-- and about half-a-dozen SMT oscillator devices. Cool. Something I can measure, and if I only measured the OSC outputs, with little fear of screwing up my $20,000 network device!

Now, what I DON'T understand is how my 50-Mhz-rated Rigol 1052E could easily measure the clock on 25Mhz and 50Mhz as expected, but could also measure the clock on 66.6Mhz, 100Mhz, and 125Mhz! See pic of the 125Mhz displayed, auto-triggered and measured by my 1052E--

http://imgur.com/8qVqL.jpg (http://imgur.com/8qVqL.jpg)

It had a little trouble measuring the 100Mhz oscillator output-- the level was lower and there was some jitter apparent-- but the the Rigol 1052 did display, auto-trigger and measure (steadily) see pic--

http://imgur.com/7YDRX.jpg (http://imgur.com/7YDRX.jpg)

Now what is MOST interesting to me is that my Tektronix TDS 220, kept pace with the Rigol 1052E, EXCEPT for trying to measure the 100Mhz-- It simply could not do it!!!  It did fine with the 125Mhz, but it could not find an adequate input on the 100Mhz to trigger! Note-- I didn't photograph the screens from the Tektronix during these tests-- the monochrome is much harder to capture, but the output levels were pretty much the same-- I didn't see any attenuation or v-div differences (between the Rigol versus the Tektronix) across the 25-125Mhz range.

What the hell? This is the kind of shit that makes me want to give all this up and take up duck hunting instead. It just doesn't make any sense (TO ME.)

For those of you who have been reading this thread-- I did say earlier that the mainboard in my 1052E looked more like the mainboard in a 1102E-- could it be possible that my 1052E has a 1102E board in it, repaired and downgraded with lower software?

Or, more plausible-- I don't know what I'm doing, and getting am getting excited for no reason?

Someone please answer-- otherwise I wouldn't be able to sleep tonight.

Thanks,

-Trent

 
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: EEVblog on November 06, 2009, 01:48:14 am
That is normal, a 50MHz scope does not stop measuring signals at 50MHz, it's just 3dB down at 50MHz.
Check out the response graph someone posted in another thread, the 50MHz Rigol is only 6dB down at 100MHz, so will still easily display a signal.

The triggering issue?, well, that's just the nature of triggering. Sometime the scope gets it easy, sometimes you need to tweak it.

Dave.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: TrentO on November 06, 2009, 03:05:56 am
Dave, thanks for the incredibly fast response!

I'm still a little confused about the attenuation levels-- my expectations don't seem to jive with what I'm seeing--

The Rigol and the Tektronix show virtually the same waveform at 66MHz--

http://imgur.com/mfc7j.jpg (http://imgur.com/mfc7j.jpg)
http://imgur.com/4EMWe.jpg (http://imgur.com/4EMWe.jpg)

And at 100Mhz--

http://imgur.com/4t2Xo.jpg (http://imgur.com/4t2Xo.jpg)
http://imgur.com/rSOVw.jpg (http://imgur.com/rSOVw.jpg)

It's not until 125Mhz that any sort of difference becomes apparent--

http://imgur.com/zhzjw.jpg (http://imgur.com/zhzjw.jpg)
http://imgur.com/dBdKk.jpg (http://imgur.com/dBdKk.jpg)

I didn't take any pictures of the measurements at 25Mhz and 50Mhz, but the small error of margin between the Rigol and the Tektronix remains consistent-- the Rigol reads a little lower on the v/div for any given reading...

I seem to have missed that class on what -dB x means... could you explain?


Someone posted this on the equipment demo-center door, shortly after the executive management team gave me access--

ACHTUNG! Das machine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben.
Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und corkenpoppen mit spitzensparken.
Ist nicht fur gewerken by das dummkopfen.
Das rubbernecken sightseeren keepen hands in das pockets.
Relaxen und vatch das blinkenlights!


Also-- you were right about tweaking the triggering-- it took one full turn of the v-position dial to find the waveform, and like turning of the trigger dial for the Tek to finally get it. The Rigol got it automatically, each and every time!

Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: EEVblog on November 06, 2009, 04:10:57 am
It's unlikely both scopes will have the same roll-off filter characteristics, so any differences would be normal. There are different types of analog filters and they can have different "orders" (rate or slope of attenuation with frequency).

dB is just a ratio, so instead of saying something is 0.5 times the value of something else, you can say it's "-6dB".
So if one scope reads 1V and the other scope reads 0.5V for the same signal then the say the second scope is "6dB down"

Some good rule of thumb numbers to remember:
3dB up or down is 0.707 (1/sqrt(2)) or 1.414 (sqrt(2))
6dB up or down is a half or two times (6dB=20 * log(0.5))
20dB up or down is 1/10th or 10 times (20dB=20* log(0.1))

And also, adding in dB's is like multiplying. So if something is 40dB down then it's 1/100th. etc
So if someone says something is 1 millionth, or 1ppm, or whatever, you can quickly use the rule of thumb to calculate it's -120dB (i.e. 6 (zeros) x -20dB) instead of using the formula dB=20*log(x)

Engineers like to talk in dB for many things!

Dave.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: TrentO on November 06, 2009, 08:14:38 am
Hallelujah! Yes! Yes! I SEE THE LIGHT!  (The band!)

at  25 Mhz, I see a ratio of 1.00, rigol/tektronix v-p-p
at  50 Mhz, I see a ratio of .97, rigol/tektronix v-p-p
at  66 Mhz, I see a ratio of .90, rigol/tektronix v-p-p
at 100 Mhz, I see a ratio of .66, rigol/tektronix v-p-p
at 125 Mhz, I see a ratio of .49, rigol/tektronix v-p-p

So my VERY rough, woefully unscientific results using peak-to-peak measurements comparing the two scopes shows a differential of -3dB approaching 100 MHz, and -6dB at 125 MHz. The world makes sense to me again!

Thanks for your help on this one Dave.

-Trent

 
 
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Dago on November 06, 2009, 09:00:33 am
Btw. tip for TrentO (and others as well): Enable the frequency counter from Utility -> Counter ON, it is much more accurate than the measure -> Freq thing (I believe this measures the frequency from the waveform showing on the screen, but the counter counts it from a longer period).
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: armandas on November 06, 2009, 10:49:58 am
Another tip for Trent: resize the photos before putting them online. I had to download them to my web server first, resize to 25% and only then load them on my laptop. I'm using limited 3G broadband, if you're wondering :D
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Dago on November 06, 2009, 12:25:34 pm
Anybody else have really shady "record" functionality? When taking bitmap images to my USB stick with the record function I first create a new file in the storage -> external menu, then I go to the record function, select correct channel and press operate, scope says waveforms recorded. Then I take off my USB stick, plug it in my computer and see.... an image with either a) just noise on both channels (no signal) or b) channel number 1 signal (and just noise on channel nr2) no matter if channel nr. 1 or 2 was selected. But then somehow I managed to take one image that showed both channels (what I wanted) even though I didn't do anything different. Is there an update for the firmware or am I doing something wrong?

Edit: Seems I can capture channel 2 by disabling channel 1 totally, but I'd like to be able to capture them both at the same time...
Edit2: It seems it is somehow related to which channel is "selected" (ie. which channels V/div changes when you turn the knob) but I really don't see any logic in it. Now I had channel 1 selected and told it to capture channel 1 and I got both channels in the picture. Go figure, seems bit buggy. Haven't tried any other capture forms than bitmap though (using linux so I cant be bothered to install ultrascope in wine or virtualbox).
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: TrentO on November 06, 2009, 07:00:30 pm
Another tip for Trent: resize the photos before putting them online. I had to download them to my web server first, resize to 25% and only then load them on my laptop. I'm using limited 3G broadband, if you're wondering :D

I'm using 3G myself. Re-size them, for what?
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on November 06, 2009, 07:18:20 pm
we don't really need a 6-10 Mp image for screen viewing, if you upload images for web use in 1024 X 768 pixels at most they will be nice and big on computer screens but not so large they place uneccesary strain on hosting resources and peoples connections.

3G connection speeds vary from location to location and are paid for by the KB so why upload what could be a 1+ MB photo when about  150 KB will serve the same purpose?

and not to upset anyone but its greener too ! all that data is being transmitted and received by many people, its not just a case of you putting up a 1 MB file, that 1 MB file will be downloaded (viewed) by many people.

we have a similar problem at work and are asked to keep images down to 1-200 KB, thing is I can take a few 10 Mp images on my DSLR that have a file size of 1-2.5 MB, I will then email these images to a supplier copying in other people in the company, our email accounts are stored on a central server, suddenly a few images can mean that my company alone has up to 100 MB of data stored over a few photos !
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: TrentO on November 06, 2009, 07:49:18 pm
Per Simon's request, of which the added context was very appropriate and appreciated-- for images that don't really require it, I will try to remember to lower the res on my camera... 

Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on November 06, 2009, 08:35:54 pm
Thanks Trent, normally the lowest possible setting on a camera is plenty for web purposes or there are some nice freeware photo editors out there if you like fine tuning or have like me a minimum of 2 Mp on your camera, although thats not too bad, paint.net is quite a good one, I always shoot at 10 Mp and then worry about it later as my job is as a QC inspector so often I have to photograph damaged goods, on later inspection we may find more damage but with a large image an area can easily be isolated and croped to a suitable size.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: TrentO on November 06, 2009, 08:57:14 pm
Simon, thanks for the advice--that's a 'tip' that I can actually use. Dago's tip is a useful as well.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: EEVblog on November 08, 2009, 10:36:21 am
You usually don't need to lower the res much, the key is the compression ratio.
I use Irfanview, and simply re-saving images with 70-80% JPEG compression with the same res saves a lot of space for starters.

Dave.

Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on November 08, 2009, 10:46:15 am
dave a 6 Mp image with with 66-70 % compression will still be large I find the best thing is a 800 pixel wide image with a good 80-90 % compression, this is immediately usable on the web is not large (1-200 KB) and is of good quality and easier to handle in up/download
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: markus on November 08, 2009, 08:51:29 pm
Two questions:

1) What do we think of the Rigol vs Owon o-scope, say 5022S?  Apart from 25 vs 50mhz.

2) Do we think it is possible some people are receiving counterfeit/copied Rigol scopes, explaining the quality differences we are seeing?  This seems to be a problem with Chinese goods..

Dave, do you know the vendor you purchased your unit from on ebay?  Could other buyers also list their vendor?

Thanks for the video blog, I enjoy it!

I also agree with others that suggest an episode about general scope use, tips, tricks, etc.  I would like to see that. :)
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: EEVblog on November 08, 2009, 08:54:24 pm
I got mine from HappySeeds, I believe I was his first customer for this scope.

Dave.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on November 08, 2009, 09:02:58 pm
Dave and myself bought from Happyseeds, I think many others did too. I haven't taken my scope completly to bits though just played around with the power supply board
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Andrew on November 08, 2009, 09:27:01 pm
Two questions:

1) What do we think of the Rigol vs Owon o-scope, say 5022S?  Apart from 25 vs 50mhz.
If you look into an alternative to Rigol then have a look at GW Instek oscilloscopes for quality.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: flolic on November 12, 2009, 09:29:43 am
My DS1102E finally arrived yesterday, I will open it in a day or two...  ;D
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: cybergibbons on November 12, 2009, 07:05:46 pm
Two questions:

1) What do we think of the Rigol vs Owon o-scope, say 5022S?  Apart from 25 vs 50mhz.
If you look into an alternative to Rigol then have a look at GW Instek oscilloscopes for quality.

I recently purchased a GW Instek GDS-1152A scope after spending quite a lot of time looking at the various options available to me. On the whole I'm happy. Plus points:
+ The 150Mhz version isn't that much more than the 60Mhz version (the 100Mhz Rigol is a lot more than the 50Mhz one)
+ I wanted as deep a memory as possible (2MPoint, compared to the Rigol with 1MPoint)
+ Better build quality than the Rigol (inside and out)
+ Brighter, better display than the Rigol
+ Lifetime warranty
+ Could buy from a reliable bricks and mortar retailer without paying a premium.
+ Seems much more stable and less buggy than Rigol

Minus points:
- Costs more
- No push button knobs or light up buttons
- Less triggering options (no slope, no alternate trigger, no rise and fall)
- Zooming on signal interface isn't as nice (this is actually quite a big thing)
- Writing to the SD memory card takes ages with full 2Mpoint memory depth
- PC software is awful, really really bad (but the command set is full and works well)


Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Andrew on November 12, 2009, 09:31:26 pm
- PC software is awful, really really bad (but the command set is full and works well)

There is some Linux command line scripting software around. No fancy GUI, but just the right tool for me to automate things.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: TrentO on November 13, 2009, 06:44:11 am
My DS1102E finally arrived yesterday, I will open it in a day or two...  ;D

Flolic, I can't wait to see the pictures! Let me know if you need any help-- If there's one thing I can do well, it's taking things apart, and (successfully) putting them back together again. :)

-Trent
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: TrentO on November 13, 2009, 06:47:19 am
- PC software is awful, really really bad (but the command set is full and works well)

There is some Linux command line scripting software around. No fancy GUI, but just the right tool for me to automate things.

Andrew, what kinda stuff do you automate? Pass-fail or some other type of data-gathering?

Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: flolic on November 13, 2009, 09:43:59 am
TrentO, you have been more than helpful with your 1052E dissection procedure walk through  ;D
I have more than enough experience with small and awkward stuff (for instance, I modified many Canon DSLR cameras, changed shutters, IR block filters, fixed various mechanical and electronics problems...) so I will probably be ok with this Rigol   ;)

I will take it apart later today  8)
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: flolic on November 13, 2009, 09:40:01 pm
Ok, I disassembled and reassembled my Rigol DS1102E and it still works  ;D
For now, just one BIG picture of the whole PCB (click to open in full size).

(http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/6131/rigolds1102e.th.jpg) (http://img683.imageshack.us/i/rigolds1102e.jpg/)
More to come...
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on November 13, 2009, 09:57:08 pm
thats nice and detailed, I think you put it on a scanner ?
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: flolic on November 13, 2009, 10:17:22 pm
thats nice and detailed, I think you put it on a scanner ?

No, this is mosaic made from 5 images. With Canon 40D DSLR camera and Sigma 17-70mm macro lens. 


Ok, let's see what's under the hood:
(http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/3472/rigolfrontend.th.jpg) (http://img21.imageshack.us/i/rigolfrontend.jpg/)
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on November 13, 2009, 10:22:00 pm
aha yes thats another way, well done, I have done that often too (make a higher res image from more than one image with pano software)
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: flolic on November 13, 2009, 10:54:47 pm
Photography is my other hobby so making panoramic images is something I do a lot  ;)

Let's go to PSU board:
(http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/1484/rigolpsu.th.jpg) (http://img21.imageshack.us/i/rigolpsu.jpg/)

Few thoughts about temperatures, fan and fan noise. My plan was to reduce fan speed to lower noise. Before that I take some temperature measurements... I checked temperatures inside the scope with my IR thermometer. Hottest parts on the main board are definitely AD converters, followed by FPGA. They reached around 50 degrees Celsius. Other hot part is that 7905 regulator in the bottom left. But I think fan cooling is not needed for main board, those temperatures are relatively low.
On the other hand, parts of PSU get really hot. Left top (LM317) and left bottom (some diode) heatsinks are at 70C. But that diode right next to the big primary side electrolytic reached 94C!!! Room temperature was 20C.
I aborted the mission and leave fan at full speed  :(
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: flolic on November 14, 2009, 01:50:49 am
Rigol specifications, false advertising or...???

If you set dual channel mode and long memory, maximum sample rate falls to 250Ms/s?? Should be 500Ms/s.
Am I doing something wrong or they lie to us??
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: TrentO on November 14, 2009, 02:07:29 am
Filip,

Excellent pictures!!!

They put my instant-camera photos to shame!

I'm going to start my analysis today-- I intend to use my Tektronix TDS 220 and 66, 100 and 125 MHz clock sources to find the source of attenuation.

I think your pictures will serve as an excellent reference for our efforts-- they are that good! 

-Trent
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: TrentO on November 14, 2009, 05:22:48 am
No obvious differences between my DS1052E and Flolic's DS1102E-- I disassembled my 1052E again to compare (due to my worthless / crappy photos.)

I then decided to feed my 1052E a constant 125MHz waveform and attempt to measure attenuation along at the test-points. This turned out to be a no-can-do. (For those that bitch about file size, just don't look at it.)

http://imgur.com/GPCk7.jpg (http://imgur.com/GPCk7.jpg)

The photo shows my Rigol happily displaying 125MHz at 1.62 V-p-p, and my Tektronix in the background displaying the same, at about 400mv-p-p. But, notice-- the probe going to the Tektronix is simply sitting on the workbench with the tip shorted out. There is so much RFI generated by my clock source, that my entire workspace is bathed in a 125MHz waveform! It's the same with the Rigol switched off; unplugging the bnc from the Rigol diminishes the signal quite a bit, but the only way to eliminate it, is to turn off the hardware providing my clock source, or removing the probe-tip from the oscillator lead.

So basically, the 125Mhz on the Rigol metal case (acting as an antenna) is higher than the signal I can find on the Rigol test-pads or even the center lead on the bnc header itself! 

That dedicated function generator is starting to look like an attractive purchase again....

-Trent

Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: TrentO on November 14, 2009, 05:36:07 am
PBut that diode right next to the big primary side electrolytic reached 94C!!!

Really? The one in mine only gets a little warm-- I can keep my finger on it while the unit's on. Don't worry-- I was careful... and we use only 120v AC here in the U.S.  ;)

Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on November 14, 2009, 08:01:54 am
I think its so that the memory lasts long enough, everyone "lies" about there products, or to put it more sutley and as captain spock would: exagerates
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: qno on November 14, 2009, 07:43:41 pm
That would be logical...................
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: flolic on November 14, 2009, 07:47:00 pm
Yes, but that's NOT what specifications says!
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: flolic on November 14, 2009, 09:47:04 pm
Front end, Dave's 1052 vs my 1102

(http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/9227/rigol1052vs1102.th.jpg) (http://img198.imageshack.us/i/rigol1052vs1102.jpg/)
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: dexters_lab on November 16, 2009, 09:47:43 am
Photography is my other hobby so making panoramic images is something I do a lot  ;)

Let's go to PSU board:
(http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/1484/rigolpsu.th.jpg) (http://img21.imageshack.us/i/rigolpsu.jpg/)

Few thoughts about temperatures, fan and fan noise. My plan was to reduce fan speed to lower noise. Before that I take some temperature measurements... I checked temperatures inside the scope with my IR thermometer. Hottest parts on the main board are definitely AD converters, followed by FPGA. They reached around 50 degrees Celsius. Other hot part is that 7905 regulator in the bottom left. But I think fan cooling is not needed for main board, those temperatures are relatively low.
On the other hand, parts of PSU get really hot. Left top (LM317) and left bottom (some diode) heatsinks are at 70C. But that diode right next to the big primary side electrolytic reached 94C!!! Room temperature was 20C.
I aborted the mission and leave fan at full speed  :(

i might be tempted to pop a a heatsink on the ADCs, keeping them cool will help with noise, especially as they are overclocked

shame the PSU is being pushed hard. I guess it's easy to replace components if they fail, but annoying if they end up cooking the pcb and surrounding components. Worth remote-mounting a higher rated one?

Also notice a high-volt driver at the top of the board, is that for the LCD backlight? - Am surprised they are not using LED backlight for a screen that size.

i'm still waiting for my 1052 to land in the uk
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: dexters_lab on November 16, 2009, 10:20:04 am
Front end, Dave's 1052 vs my 1102

(http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/9227/rigol1052vs1102.th.jpg) (http://img198.imageshack.us/i/rigol1052vs1102.jpg/)

thanks for the side-by-side view frolic, great work there!

they are very similar, but there's differences in the pcb for sure. The 1052 looks like it's using a Cosmo KAQY214S SSR ( http://www.cosmo-ic.com/object/products/KAQY214S.pdf) instead of the mechanical relay of the 1102. Could this limit the bandwidth?

other than the components ralated to the SSR everything else seems the same to me?
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: GeekGirl on November 16, 2009, 10:27:27 am
Front end, Dave's 1052 vs my 1102

(http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/9227/rigol1052vs1102.th.jpg) (http://img198.imageshack.us/i/rigol1052vs1102.jpg/)

thanks for the side-by-side view frolic, great work there!

they are very similar, but there's differences in the pcb for sure. The 1052 looks like it's using a Cosmo KAQY214S SSR ( http://www.cosmo-ic.com/object/products/KAQY214S.pdf) instead of the mechanical relay of the 1102. Could this limit the bandwidth?

other than the components ralated to the SSR everything else seems the same to me?

The datasheet does not give a frequency bandwidth for this device, but it depends on how it is used in the circuit. If the PCB is a double sided board, could you guys trace out the circuit, should not need to much, although if you could do from the BNC to the ADC we could analyse the circuit fully.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on November 16, 2009, 12:57:15 pm
I was also considering an exrernal power supply but for all the wires coming of the psu, its as though some parts are on the main board
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: TrentO on November 16, 2009, 03:20:29 pm

they are very similar, but there's differences in the pcb for sure. The 1052 looks like it's using a Cosmo KAQY214S SSR ( http://www.cosmo-ic.com/object/products/KAQY214S.pdf) instead of the mechanical relay of the 1102. Could this limit the bandwidth?

other than the components ralated to the SSR everything else seems the same to me?

The board in my DS1052E is exactly like FLolic's-- down to the FT relays and silk-screened labels. The only difference is the minor 'patch' on the LCD driver IC on mine. I believe Dave has a slightly earlier rev board.  

I would suspect the 'shaved' IC's in the analog section-- there's has to be a reason why they insist on defacing the labels.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: dexters_lab on November 17, 2009, 12:01:54 am
my 1052 arrived today, purchased through goodlucksell on ebay, was decent of them to declare it's value as $30 for customs ;D

really quite impressed with it so far
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on November 17, 2009, 07:45:55 am
I really wonder how this customs business works, if I can put 10% of the real value down what is customs achieving, don't they ever check stuff against its declared value. most small stuff I ever bought from china on ebay comes as a "gift"
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: flolic on November 17, 2009, 08:37:50 am
Here in Croatia, I had to pay 23% VAT on real value, not declared (declared value was 60$)  >:(
It's all up to a good will of a custom officers, if they think that real value is greater than declared (and in this case it obviously is), they ask for a Paypal invoice. If you don't give them invoice (or altered it to smaller amount  ;D) they can, and will, easily check ebay auction. Then you are i trouble  ;D
OTOH, smaller packages, not necessary low valued, usually pass without any duty...
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: dexters_lab on November 17, 2009, 10:18:31 am
The board in my DS1052E is exactly like FLolic's-- down to the FT relays and silk-screened labels. The only difference is the minor 'patch' on the LCD driver IC on mine. I believe Dave has a slightly earlier rev board.  

I would suspect the 'shaved' IC's in the analog section-- there's has to be a reason why they insist on defacing the labels.

do we have any other pics where these two other ICs have not been sanded properly and might reveal what they are?

i've not opened mine up yet
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: flolic on November 17, 2009, 10:32:17 am
Unfortunately, I think no...  :-[
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: dexters_lab on November 18, 2009, 11:26:54 am
i'm going to use/test mine for a few days before i open it
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: dexters_lab on December 09, 2009, 08:13:10 pm
did anyone get anywhere with a bandwidth hack for this scope in the end?
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: armandas on December 30, 2009, 08:11:25 pm
It seems that Rigols are getting extinct on ebay. There were loads of them some time ago, they were even priced as low as £219. Yesterday I saved the only seller that still sold them cheaply and.. today I only get 8 results all starting at over £300. Go figure.. Did I miss the chance to get a decent entry-level scope for a bargain price? ???
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Machina on December 30, 2009, 09:39:50 pm
You noticed that as well.

I thought perhaps it had to do with the Christmas season, although it made no sense for the Chinese suppliers to lay off during Christmas.

Perhaps Rigol finally got tough on behalf of their authorized distributors. Who knows?
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: chemicaloliver on December 31, 2009, 12:19:07 am
Or have Rigol increased the wholesale price?

In other news I bagged one at 219 pounds on Christmas day  8) just to wait for it to arrive
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: jone on December 31, 2009, 09:26:55 am
Perhaps Rigol finally got tough on behalf of their authorized distributors. Who knows?

eBay just recently pulled the auction listing for the scope I bought a couple of months ago...

"We'd like to let you know that eBay has ended an item you were bidding on for breaching of one or more of our policies. As it's important that eBay maintains member privacy, we can't tell you exactly why the listing was removed."

Thought it was weird at the time, perhaps Rigol are clamping down on sellers then?
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: armandas on December 31, 2009, 09:45:35 am
I contacted the saved seller asking him what was goin on. He replied (emphasis mine):
Quote
Hello, Please don't worry, the problem is, an another seller has complaint by ebay that i'm selling the rigol oscilloscopes at a dumping price
<...>

Something weird is going on here. Perhaps he was selling the scopes significantly lower than MSRP (breach of contract or something?)..
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on December 31, 2009, 09:57:28 am
sounds odd, I'm sure more than one seller was selling at rather low prices.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Machina on December 31, 2009, 04:56:08 pm
All I know is that a few weeks before Christmas, a ebay search for Rigol used to produce close to 300 results, as well as 10 or more new results a day.

Currently the same search produces just under a 100 results, with no new results for today.

Its possible its just the time of year, but its not sounding like it.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Andrew on December 31, 2009, 07:45:59 pm
Did I miss the chance to get a decent entry-level scope for a bargain price? ???

No, but


Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on December 31, 2009, 08:09:26 pm
yea the above rings a bell when I was trying to help a guy I used to work for in italy trade with china, their english is awful and "anything goes" trying to establish a common clothing size systen is a nightmare, you want a 12 you get a twelve, didn't matter what the real size was.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: EEVblog on January 01, 2010, 08:19:36 am
WOW!
I so wonder what's happened?!
Cheapest is now AU$600 or so, it was under $400 a few weeks back!

Dave.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on January 01, 2010, 08:24:16 am
they must have figured that they were selling way too cheap
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: EEVblog on January 01, 2010, 08:24:55 am
Dealextreme still have it for $400:
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.30573

Dave.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: armandas on January 01, 2010, 09:53:45 am
And somehow convince yourself that you can trust the seller. That's where your balls of steal come into play.
I got an offer from ebay seller to complete the transaction outside of ebay. I'd rather wait and see what happens next :D

Dealextreme still have it for $400:
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.30573

Dave.
Yeah, that was the second place I checked, since the price was quite reasonable there. If nothing else comes up, I'll go for DE.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rossv on January 03, 2010, 03:49:44 am
Hi guys,

Looks like I also might have missed the boat, but I think I'll grab one now while they're still around cheap.

I found DealExtreme and a online Australian retailer (http://purchasenet.com.au/shopping/rigol-ds1052e-digital-storage-oscilloscope-2ch-p-1664.html?osCsid=07dbb53dce6efbc6902)

The DealExtreme one is slightly cheaper, but I see some negative comments about shipping under "Discussions" for this item.

Has anyone bought from DealExtreme and/or can recommend them, or should I stick to the local (AU) retailer who at least I can call if something goes wrong..?

Thanks,

Ross..
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: EEVblog on January 03, 2010, 07:23:29 am
Has anyone bought from DealExtreme and/or can recommend them, or should I stick to the local (AU) retailer who at least I can call if something goes wrong..?

I don't know any aussies who have bought from Dealextreme.
Dealextreme recommend you "upgrade" to EMS courier, so that's about AU$465, compared to AU$495 from the Oz seller.
Not a huge difference there really.
But I think Purchasenet might be just a drop-shipper, so probably no local stock and shipped direct from overseas anyway(?). Might be worth asking them first.
Not sure how the warranty works either, but there is a chance that if Purchasenet are not an approved Rigol Oz seller (likely I think) then the local warranty might not be valid anyway(?).

Dave.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rossv on January 03, 2010, 10:18:55 am
Thanks for your reply.

I tried to ask Purchasenet a question via their web form, but the website crashes with 505 when I click 'Submit'..!

Since there are no options on EBay anymore (unless I wish to pay $700 AUD), I think I'll just try Dealextreme and hope it works out..

Ross..
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: logictom on January 04, 2010, 11:21:31 am
I ordered one of the Rigol's from ebay and was sent out before the auction was removed. Same explanation, dumping price. But I've just got a tracking number from them and it's out in the van now so hopefully I should have it some time today  ;D
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rossv on January 04, 2010, 11:36:00 am
Unfortunately all the EBay sales are now gone, except for $699+ AUD items. :(
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: EEVblog on January 04, 2010, 11:42:59 am
Unfortunately all the EBay sales are now gone, except for $699+ AUD items. :(

That sucks :(

If it's any consolation I paid over $700 for mine, that was after the first "price crash". Little did I know they would almost half again within 6 months!

That aussie seller isn't a bad price at $500.

Dave.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rossv on January 04, 2010, 12:17:33 pm
(I'd forgotten that they started at $700+ on Ebay)..

The PurchaseNet price is fine enough, but I suspect no stock (and that they just drop ship from China as you suggested) so I went with DealExtreme who apparently are not so bad, based on a page on Whirlpool: http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=3&ved=0CBsQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwhirlpool.net.au%2Fwiki%2F%3Ftag%3Ddealextreme&rct=j&q=deal+extreme&ei=ANxBS7XkA5Po7APiuLTvAw&usg=AFQjCNE8pxOkwJgYPVF8_DHRNSNO3b_qxg

Hopefully they come through..!

Ross..
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: AnotherAusEE on January 04, 2010, 01:07:32 pm
Hey guys.

At work we use Alibaba as a direct link to Chinese suppliers all the time, and we do get some great deals.
I did a search for the DS1052E on there and it shows up under AliExpress fairly cheaply - i.e. < $400 AUD delivered for MOQ of 1 unit.

I have not bought one from this source, but it uses an escrow payment service so it MAY be OK.

Use with care, but I thought I'd throw it in, in case you're interested.

Check out the price of the 100MHz unit as well (a lot cheaper than ebay):

http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?SearchText=rigol&CatId=0

PS : Got a 1052E off ebay when they were cheap (thanks for the review, Dave!) and they really are amazing value.


Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: icemagic on January 07, 2010, 08:31:16 pm
Hi guys,

I think I found our culprit: http://www.emona.com.au/

https://secure1.ozhosting.com/emona/shop/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=72

They've got the gall to charge GST on top of that horrific price as well!
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: EEVblog on January 07, 2010, 09:20:23 pm
Hi guys,

I think I found our culprit: http://www.emona.com.au/

They have been an official Australian Rigol dealer since they that early days, they have to play by the Rigol rules.

We actually have no idea if it's even an Australian company that complained, the odds are probably not, as it's not just Australian buyers that are affected.

Dave.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Andrew on January 07, 2010, 11:40:48 pm
It could even be Rigol themselves. In my experience Rigol is a strange company[1]. It could well be that Rigol decided they want to separate themselves from the cheap manufacturers and to establish their products are "valuable", so want to establish a minimum price barrier. Or official distributors complained to Rigol about the cheap offers and asked questions how these sellers could buy the oscilloscopes so cheap from Rigol.

---
[1] I have already written elsewhere that I have trouble with Rigol regarding their DG1022 function generator PC software, so I am biased (In the rare cases I get answers that don't make sense. Latest Rigol claim: suddenly there is a "new" DG1022, but for which they also have no own software or so. I all doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: icemagic on January 08, 2010, 06:38:38 am
I wonder if this breaks any competition laws. The guys selling the oscilliscopes for $388 on ebay certainly weren't dumping. I can buy it even cheaper if I used a drop-post service. I'm not sore or anything, I ended up buying the DS1102D for ~$1400. Its just annoys me when someone can claim a seller is doing something illegal, when they themselves are illegally stopping stock from hitting the market.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: dexters_lab on January 08, 2010, 10:13:31 am
i very much doubt the dumping was the ebay sellers, else they'd make no money!

more likley rigol were dumping them out to chinese suppliers who then sold them on ebay which then prompted resellers outside china to get a bit hacked off. Maybe rigol wanted to stir up some excitment about the 1052? maybe they wanted to shift a load of stock during a global rescession? Well whatever it was, it certainly worked... i bought one!
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: xani on January 08, 2010, 09:41:13 pm
Yeah, just ordered one from DE, ~$400 for 1GS 50MHz scope is just sick, i was wondering about buying rigol, in my country (Poland) they are for about ~$600.
I wonder how cheap scopes will look in 2 years... maybe some company will relase "Open Source" scope so u can modify it's software, add features etc. that would be awesome ;]
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Andrew on January 08, 2010, 09:45:24 pm
My bet is also on Rigol being behind this.

I don't recommend buying Rigol, due to my experience with their joke of a customer service. As a test, try to get a firmware update ...

But if someone still wants to get a cheap 1052 you could try http://www.getbetterlife.com/rigol-ds1052e-50mhz-oscilloscope-color-monitor-1gsa-usb-dso_p797.html

The company looks rather strange, I have no experience with them and no affiliation, so it is your own risk.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on January 08, 2010, 10:20:11 pm
Yea I noticed that the support side of Rigol looks a bit crap but then you get what you pay for, they can't even make software that will run on vista !
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: chemicaloliver on January 09, 2010, 12:10:23 am
Yea I noticed that the support side of Rigol looks a bit crap but then you get what you pay for, they can't even make software that will run on vista !
Having just used the software to load a saved .wfm waveform you're probably better without the software! It took me about 20 minutes to find how to load the file, it's in a very odd place. The software seems to work fine  they've just never heard of usability.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Andrew on January 09, 2010, 01:47:21 am
Yea I noticed that the support side of Rigol looks a bit crap but then you get what you pay for, they can't even make software that will run on vista !

Well, $700 for not getting vista or win7 software with a function generator. $150 or so would have bought me some disposable generator from some dodgy no-name Chinese company, but at least with barely working PC software. I am that ---><--- close to going ballistic on the Rigol "support". I know it won't change a iota, because it is management that is f... this up. But it will help me to keep sane. They so deserve it.

E-Mailing with their support is like pulling teeth. Rigol never volunteers information. And why the f... can't they just make new firmware available for download? Why does one almost have to b... support to get information about new firmware, and to get the firmware? And why don't they tell you what actually changed in the firmware?

I think I am now in the mood to send their "service" the mother of all rants. Just so they can have some fun on Monday. May their soldering irons fail at the most inconvenient moments.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on January 09, 2010, 08:24:08 am
been there done that !, I think you can download the firmware but the mystery is how to flash it to the scope, probably with the software that won't run on vista/7
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Wmacky on January 10, 2010, 01:22:06 am
Hi, New here!

 After watching that excellent video from our host, I plunged in with a purchase of the 100Mhz version 1102E. The unit appears to be working OK, and appeared NIB. Strange thing is that the calibration cert is dated Nov 2008? This unit came new from a US based online supply house. I know these probally don't move as fast as the 1050e does, but that date is from before the official release date. Could they still have had original stock from their first shipment? I don't want a "return" unit!  The firmware is 1.05. Could someone check the firmware for there 1102E?

Thoughts?
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Brett on January 10, 2010, 04:12:27 am
Hi Guys!  Great info here.  I've been lurking for a while watching all of Dave's videos and reading some posts.  I just bought the Rigol DS1052E from an eBay seller, outside of eBay.  They showed selling a couple units right at the end of last year for $419USD free shipping, and the reviews are all positive (overall 99.9%).  Unfortunately the seller's auction is at $549 now, but I thought... "hey, you just sold one for $419 about a week ago... maybe I can still get one for that price".  Sure enough, they were willing to deal with me ($419USD free shipping).  5 days ago I sent payment, the day after they shipped through EMS, and already today it's through US customs and in USPS's hot little hands (soon to be mine!).

If anyone wants the seller's info, please PM me.  I don't want to get them in any kind of trouble if Rigol is forcing them to list it at new MSRP prices.  I don't think it matters much, but I'd rather error on the safe side of karma.  They were really great keeping me informed about shipping status via email, and I would definitely go back if this scope is everything I hope it will be.

That would be really sweet if we could modify our front ends to run up to 100MHz, but I'm ok with the limitations.  I mean, it was only $419 for crying out loud and it's WAY more than I currently have (which is a couple super old analog scopes that are more like museum pieces).

-Brett
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: dexters_lab on January 11, 2010, 09:22:39 am
tbh i've never used the PC software, i just expected it to be crap so wont bother with it. It was the same with my instek scope so i just save everything to a usb drive.

The firmware seems to be good though, only found a few bugs/limitations, one of which it doesn't seem to save files in folders, only in the root of the drive and i'd like to see an option to send the trigger point to the beginning of the capture area so i can use the full memory for a single event

i think it could have done with a couple of more front panel buttons too, save you going into the menus to change basic stuff like AC/DC coupling or AUTO/Manual/Single trigger.

But given it cost me £240 delivered to the UK from China, i shouldn't complain too much!
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Andrew on January 11, 2010, 12:30:49 pm
tbh i've never used the PC software, i just expected it to be crap so wont bother with it.

With my Rigol DG1022 generator the problem is it is an arbitrary waveform generator. It takes up to 4096 points to define a single waveform for channel 1. It takes multiple button presses and knob turns to define a single point of that 4096 points via the front panel. So that is easily 20000 or 30000 operations on the front panel to define an arbitrary waveform. It is a PITA to check for errors or update a waveform. And it requires that you pre-calculate the points and then dully type them in, one after the other.

Without PC software the arbitrary waveform feature of the generator is therefore unusable. And that PC software doesn't work. Other features are also unusable, but the arbitrary waveform part being unusable is the worst. Rigol doesn't care. As fare as I understand it, they don't even care twice:



Now take this for comparison http://www.hantek.com.cn/english/produce_list.asp?unid=68  $150 buys you one. It has probably a product lifetime of three years, then I guess it will be dropped by the manufacturer. Or as I like to call such stuff, throw-away hardware. I usually don't consider such products. Its analog part (the output circuitry) is likely not on par with that of Rigol's DG1022. But they have NT, Win 2000, XP, Vista, and Win 7 software and even some programming examples. They have a product that can be used now, for the intended and advertised purpose. Compare the $150 to the (once) $700 for the DG1022. $150 buys you an arbitrary waveform generator for a few years, while $700 bought a DG1022, which is even to light to be used as a boat anchor.

No one at Rigol really talks to you. Getting information out of them is like pulling teeth. I have tried to get hold of someone in management (naive, me?). I always end up at their "service".

May their fuses blow at the most inconvenient moment.
--
PS. Rigol has sanded off two ICs in my DG1022. How unimaginative. They are either DACs or DDS chips.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Technojunk on January 11, 2010, 05:50:01 pm
Hi folks,

The cheap ebay sellers are unfortunately gone :(
What is the best, and cheapest plase to buy a Rigol DS1052E? (Shipping to the Netherlands)

Niels
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Brett on January 11, 2010, 10:36:09 pm
Hi folks,

The cheap ebay sellers are unfortunately gone :(
What is the best, and cheapest plase to buy a Rigol DS1052E? (Shipping to the Netherlands)

Niels

I sent you a PM.

-Brett
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: xani on January 12, 2010, 12:20:50 am
I bought mine from http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.30573 tho i will wait probably next 2-3 weeks for shipping. Can't wait, first "real" (be4 only souncard "scope") scope :D
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Brett on January 12, 2010, 02:42:03 am
Hi Guys!  Great info here.  I've been lurking for a while watching all of Dave's videos and reading some posts.  I just bought the Rigol DS1052E from an eBay seller, outside of eBay.  They showed selling a couple units right at the end of last year for $419USD free shipping, and the reviews are all positive (overall 99.9%).  Unfortunately the seller's auction is at $549 now, but I thought... "hey, you just sold one for $419 about a week ago... maybe I can still get one for that price".  Sure enough, they were willing to deal with me ($419USD free shipping).  5 days ago I sent payment, the day after they shipped through EMS, and already today it's through US customs and in USPS's hot little hands (soon to be mine!).

If anyone wants the seller's info, please PM me.  I don't want to get them in any kind of trouble if Rigol is forcing them to list it at new MSRP prices.  I don't think it matters much, but I'd rather error on the safe side of karma.  They were really great keeping me informed about shipping status via email, and I would definitely go back if this scope is everything I hope it will be.

That would be really sweet if we could modify our front ends to run up to 100MHz, but I'm ok with the limitations.  I mean, it was only $419 for crying out loud and it's WAY more than I currently have (which is a couple super old analog scopes that are more like museum pieces).

-Brett

So I just wanted to update you guys on the status of my scope. 

I paid for it on Jan 5th.
It shipped out Jan 6th.
It cleared US Customs on Jan 8th.
It was at my doorstep this morning at 8:30am on Jan 11th! (only 6 days)

I JUST left before that for work... so I just missed it, and apparently no one else at my house heard the door.  Oh well, I'll pick it up at 8:30am tomorrow morning.  The USPS tag said it was shipped Express Mail!  Woohoo, sure was fast.

I'll update with my first impressions tomorrow.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Wmacky on January 12, 2010, 04:36:21 am
Hi, New here!

 After watching that excellent video from our host, I plunged in with a purchase of the 100Mhz version 1102E. The unit appears to be working OK, and appeared NIB. Strange thing is that the calibration cert is dated Nov 2008? This unit came new from a US based online supply house. I know these probally don't move as fast as the 1050e does, but that date is from before the official release date. Could they still have had original stock from their first shipment? I don't want a "return" unit!  The firmware is 1.05. Could someone check the firmware for there 1102E?

Thoughts?

No one? 

BTW did your new rigols come with a protector sheet on the LCD? Mine didn't. I've never seen that before.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: joelby on January 12, 2010, 05:06:03 am
The firmware is 1.05. Could someone check the firmware for there 1102E?

Mine's a few months old. Firmware 00.01.06. Serial number is DS1EB104803185. Is the calibration cert on a piece of paper that came with yours? I can't remember getting one and don't know where I put it if I did! Don't think my screen had a protector, but it was well packed and not scratched.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on January 12, 2010, 07:42:03 am
I think mine did not either, its recessed in the unit so unless someone does something stupid it should not come to any harm during manufacturing
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rossv on January 12, 2010, 08:41:47 am
Hey guys,

Back to topic, I received my DS1052E from DealExtreme today.

It took about 7 working days to arrive to Sydney, Australia from Hong Kong. I used EMS postage (was not very expensive).

I am now testing it out, so far looks good. Does not smell like plastic like some reported (due to grinding of ICs).

Of course the manuals etc are in Mandarin, but it's no problem to download the English manual. Also you need to change the GUI language as by default it arrives in Mandarin too.

For anyone who missed out and was looking at DealExtreme, they definitely seem to be OK in my experience.

Regards,

Ross..
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: dexters_lab on January 12, 2010, 09:51:41 am
Hi, New here!

 After watching that excellent video from our host, I plunged in with a purchase of the 100Mhz version 1102E. The unit appears to be working OK, and appeared NIB. Strange thing is that the calibration cert is dated Nov 2008? This unit came new from a US based online supply house. I know these probally don't move as fast as the 1050e does, but that date is from before the official release date. Could they still have had original stock from their first shipment? I don't want a "return" unit!  The firmware is 1.05. Could someone check the firmware for there 1102E?

Thoughts?

interestingly, my 1052 was calibrated 30th Oct 2009, two days after i paid through ebay :-\
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: flolic on January 12, 2010, 03:34:11 pm
Strange thing is that the calibration cert is dated Nov 2008? This unit came new from a US based online supply house. I know these probally don't move as fast as the 1050e does, but that date is from before the official release date. Could they still have had original stock from their first shipment? I don't want a "return" unit!  The firmware is 1.05. Could someone check the firmware for there 1102E?

Thoughts?

My 1102E arrived directly from China two months ago, without any calibration certificate. Firmware version is 00.02.02 SP2
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Andrew on January 12, 2010, 07:15:09 pm
To get the latest firmware you could try to mail 'service' (Rigol doesn't use the usual 'support') @rigol.com with your product number, serial number and current firmware version.

If you are lucky the'll mail you the latest firmware.

If someone knows a simpler way to get Rigol firmware I'd like to hear it.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: jone on January 12, 2010, 08:41:19 pm
Anyone know if there's a list of changes/fixes published anywhere?
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Brett on January 12, 2010, 11:57:59 pm
BTW did your new rigols come with a protector sheet on the LCD? Mine didn't. I've never seen that before.

Mine came in a sealed bag, in a foam reinforced double wall cardboard Rigol box.  It didn't have and LCD protector, but it had the bag... good enough for me.

My first impression of the Rigol DS1052E was, WOW!   This thing is small and light, bright screen.. fast menus.. not as complicated to operate as some people have claimed.  I love it!  It's exactly what I was looking for, and it will get a lot of use in the coming winter months.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Andrew on January 13, 2010, 12:30:55 am
Anyone know if there's a list of changes/fixes published anywhere?

AFAIK Rigol does not publish such lists. My attempts to get such a list for my function generator were stone-walled.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Wmacky on January 13, 2010, 12:51:09 am
Anyone know if there's a list of changes/fixes published anywhere?

I have the 2.02 firmware file, and upgraded the new rigol from 1.05.

HOWEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Futher reading suggest that you must ask Rigol first, as other rigol models have had hardware changes that only allow updating to a certian version for your hardware revision!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't know if the "E" models have had any hardware revisions?  Mine seems to be working OK even thought I went all the wat from 1.05 to 2.02, but I could have bricked it! I have sent a email to rigol about this, but no response yet. I can share the file if anyone wants? Thanks for the response on the LCD protector. Being mine is 1.05, i was worried it was a returned/ repaired unit. However, it appears new, and the Rigol box tape was original, and uncut.



Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Wmacky on January 13, 2010, 12:57:05 am
The firmware is 1.05. Could someone check the firmware for there 1102E?

Mine's a few months old. Firmware 00.01.06. Serial number is DS1EB104803185. Is the calibration cert on a piece of paper that came with yours? I can't remember getting one and don't know where I put it if I did! Don't think my screen had a protector, but it was well packed and not scratched.

Yes, I got a full Cert sheet even listing SN#'s and Cert date for the Fluke calibration unit.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: madworm on January 28, 2010, 05:54:18 pm
I'm officially pissed off now.

I've just tried to order a rigol DS1204B in the US and was told by the shop owner that rigol has officially forbidden them to ship to germany! WTF !?!

European shops are way too expensive. I don't feel like paying a penalty fee just because I don't happen to live somewhere else. There's a price difference of about 450$, and that's _after_ paying import tax. Seems like I will have to look for a different brand.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Andrew on January 29, 2010, 12:17:17 pm
I'm officially pissed off now.

And IMHO rightly so. I am also pissed off, but for other reasons.

Quote
I've just tried to order a rigol DS1204B in the US and was told by the shop owner that rigol has officially forbidden them to ship to germany! WTF !?!

It looks very much that Rigol is on a a witch hunt. They managed to get offers removed from eBay, and now this. I have attached an allegedly official Rigol document I found on the web page of a German reseller. The reseller was/is using this document to explain to customers why they should buy from them, and not in China.

To quote the main part of the document:

Quote

...

    Statement of Rigol about illegal sales channel

TO Rigol’s Customers

Thanks for your interest in Rigol’s products.

Recently, Rigol noticed that some Rigol products are sold directly from China to Europe.
In order to protect customer’s benefit, Rigol declares that these are illegal sales channels.

Rigol doesn’t authorize anybody to sell Rigol products directly from China to Europe.

Rigol also can’t guarantee the warranty service to the customers who buy products from
these illegal sales channels.

Some products from illegal sales channels are not even originally produced by Rigol
Technologies, Inc.

Rigol recommends that customers contact our authorized distributor to buy Rigol’s
products.

Thanks for your understanding and cooperation.

...

James Zhu
Regional Manager in European Market

...

Hey Rigol, in case you haven't got it, alienating customers is never a good idea. And in these times of globalization you won't manage to hide the fact from your European customers that you artificially inflate prices in Europe.

---
Note: I have no way to verify the authenticity of this document. I have tried in the past to get through to someone - anyone - in Rigol to talk about and express my thoughts about their behavior. I failed and for me it is apparently impossible to get a message through to anyone beyond their powerless service@ ...  personnel.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: charliex on January 30, 2010, 06:49:27 am
seems like a fairly normal grey import ban, corporate capitalism at its best.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Andrew on January 30, 2010, 09:09:02 am
seems like a fairly normal grey import ban, corporate capitalism at its best.


Yes, those who benefit most from globalization (corporations) don't want that others (their customers) benefit from globalization, too.

As for Rigol calling a parallel import illegal, well, maybe they should talk to their lawyers first, e.g. asking their lawyers about the first sales doctrine, instead of applying such scare tactics and bullying Chinese sellers and those buying in China. Maybe someone should tell Rigol that they haven't the power to declare something illegal. That's up to law-makers.

And for Rigol claiming they can't guarantee the warranty service. Well, those who have experienced the teeth-pulling with Rigol's e-mail "service" aren't in any way keen to experience any other kind of "service" from Rigol.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: charliex on January 30, 2010, 05:21:40 pm
The courts have generally sided with the OEM's on grey imports, there are some laws that offer protection for the OEM.

But they can make effectively their own law, since its simply contractual with their distributors/dealers.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rossmoffett on January 30, 2010, 10:09:47 pm
We have the 100Mhz Rigol models at school.  Knobs fell off of two of them and they were sent back to the dealer for repair, they came back with a USB stick containing a firmware upgrade.  I don't recall the exact steps, but the front USB port is compatible with USB flash drives.  I just plugged it in and selected the file somewhere, I think.

Wonder what would happen if you were to use the 100Mhz model firmware in a 50Mhz machine?
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rossv on January 30, 2010, 11:35:01 pm
I'm officially pissed off now.

I've just tried to order a rigol DS1204B in the US and was told by the shop owner that rigol has officially forbidden them to ship to germany! WTF !?!

European shops are way too expensive. I don't feel like paying a penalty fee just because I don't happen to live somewhere else. There's a price difference of about 450$, and that's _after_ paying import tax. Seems like I will have to look for a different brand.

Have you tried DealExtreme? I bought from them and had no problems. You should use a credit card for safety and make sure you select most expensive/secure shipping option. You probably already know, but in Germany you will be forced to pay extra Zoll for something of that value :-(.

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.30573

Ross..
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: madworm on January 31, 2010, 03:54:26 pm
Yes, I know about import tax and such. Still it would've been a steal. The DS1204B is sold for 1850€ (about 2600$ US) in Germany. I just don't feel like subsidizing Rigol sales elsewhere by paying  'a little extra' for the scope here.

The DS1052E costs about 830$ US in Germany.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rossmoffett on February 01, 2010, 12:23:13 am
I couldn't take it anymore.. bought one.  ;D

I'd love to have the 100Mhz model that I've used at school, but really all of my analog development is limited to well under a Mhz anyway.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: pisarm on February 01, 2010, 12:36:44 am
Madworm - the DS1052E can be had for ~625$ in Germany (including free shipping) from
http://www.progshop.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1052E.html

I bought a DS1102E from them a few months ago which I am very satisfied with.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rossv on February 01, 2010, 12:27:53 pm
Yes, I know about import tax and such. Still it would've been a steal. The DS1204B is sold for 1850€ (about 2600$ US) in Germany. I just don't feel like subsidizing Rigol sales elsewhere by paying  'a little extra' for the scope here.

The DS1052E costs about 830$ US in Germany.

It is also expensive in Australia and much of the world, so why don't you but it from DealExtreme (and use credit card for safety)?
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: madworm on February 01, 2010, 12:54:10 pm
Well, because I really don't want the 50MHz one, but the 4CH 200MHz scope ;-)

And that one costs 1850€ in Germany (including tax and other crap). If I could import that one from the US, I'd end up with just 1600€ including tax and shipping. So apparently someone is trying to suck 200€ out of my pocket. I don't know if it's Rigol or all of the dealers in between, but I don't like it. Don't get me wrong, but why should I have to pay more than people living in the US?
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rossmoffett on February 01, 2010, 01:10:33 pm
Well, because I really don't want the 50MHz one, but the 4CH 200MHz scope ;-)

http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?SearchText=rigol&Country=&CatId=50502&IndexArea=product_en&ssk=y&sq=y

Mail a few sellers there and see what you can get.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: madworm on February 01, 2010, 01:17:42 pm
Hmmm.

I've got in contact with my local Lecroy representative. I'll have to see what they can tell me about the WaveAce224 first. Although they currently have a promotion going it will certainly cost a lot more, but Rigol have really pissed me off. I'm quite unforgiving with respect to being treated like an idiot. And the service should be much better as well.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: frederir on February 02, 2010, 06:09:15 pm
Doing some research on DSO, and found this thread. From the photo we can say there is a least one other component overclocked, the FIFO.
Reference is IS61LPS25636A-200 (http://www.issi.com/pdf/61LPS25632TD.pdf), It is either 32 ou 36 bits wide and can run at a maximum of 200MHz. Now you have 1G sample per second, assuming 8bits, if you want to store it in a 32bits RAM you need to run at 250MHz. Then you are 50MHz over limit....
The other possibility is to reduce samples from 8bits to 6 bits and use the 36bits to store 6 words of 6bits at each clock, you can the store 1.2G samples per second but only with 6bits resolution.
Last solution you can store 4.5 samples of 8 bits each clock in 36bits but it would get you only 0.9G samples per second and the software would be a bit more complex.
My guess is they run the fifo in 32bits and overclock it at 250MHz. Can someone put a frequency counter on the pin 89 of the ISSI chip ?

F.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rossmoffett on February 03, 2010, 06:09:25 am
Can't wait until mine arrives so I can get a look inside.

I took another look at the 100 Mhz Rigol scopes we have at school and they are the 1102C model.  400 Ms/s!  Probably the same 100 MHz analog board with different clocks/firmware on the digital side, before they figured out they could reliably overclock.  Would it be useful to graph its frequency response curve?
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: bushing on February 04, 2010, 04:56:51 am

they are very similar, but there's differences in the pcb for sure. The 1052 looks like it's using a Cosmo KAQY214S SSR ( http://www.cosmo-ic.com/object/products/KAQY214S.pdf) instead of the mechanical relay of the 1102. Could this limit the bandwidth?

other than the components ralated to the SSR everything else seems the same to me?

The board in my DS1052E is exactly like FLolic's-- down to the FT relays and silk-screened labels. The only difference is the minor 'patch' on the LCD driver IC on mine. I believe Dave has a slightly earlier rev board.  

I would suspect the 'shaved' IC's in the analog section-- there's has to be a reason why they insist on defacing the labels.

I just got my DS1052E in the mail (thanks to Brett for the tip!) -- is this where the 50MHz/100MHz investigation ended, or did anyone make further progress?
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rossmoffett on February 13, 2010, 10:31:02 am

My scope is about like Dave's in build quality, looks very nice except for some similar mess that others have observed due to the rubbed off A/D converters.

Has anyone been probing around in there lately?  I have mine apart already and I'm looking at the Analog section.  While the 50 MHz and 100 MHz models have what seems to be an identical front-end, I have a theory.  Mind this comment from the teardown blog comments:

Quote
Mastro Gippo October 13th, 2009 at 02:43

Mh.. The scratched 16 pin IC in the analog part should be an AD8370
http://www.analog.com/en/amplifiers-and-comparators/variable-gain-amplifiers/ad8370/products/product.html
but I don’t know why they are scratching it! There’s nothing to be ashamed of, it’s a 750MHz part…

Rigol makes some 300 MHz scopes too.  What if the analog front end on the 100 MHz scope is bandwidth limited also, and we've got filters on both models with different values?  What if our *real* bandwidth can be even higher than 100 MHz?

I've found something that I need to investigate with a better scope, will post details if it ends up being anything of significance.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rossmoffett on February 13, 2010, 03:15:19 pm
I just threw caution to the wind and made the mod..  I'll do a write-up ASAP tonight, I've been up all night playing with it and I've got to go to a robot build meeting.  After you find out what I've done and why you can better decide whether it was a good idea or not.  I don't want to say what I did until I can thoroughly explain it.

Channel 1 (yellow) is unmodified, Channel two (blue) has the mod.  It seems to correct the curve that is shown in the other Rigol post (blog specific forum).  I don't know what happens around 100 MHz, honestly.  The function generator I'm using is a piece of trash and very unstable, 100MHz is where the road ends.  I was only able to get curves this good by using time averaging, you can tell that the VPP stability is crap, but since both channels are referencing it, the data should still be good for proportional reference.  Stability of the function generator around 80-90 MHz was too horrible to even post.

20MHz (http://www.dontshock.us/rigol/screencaptures/20MHz.jpg)
30MHz (http://www.dontshock.us/rigol/screencaptures/30MHz.jpg)
40MHz (http://www.dontshock.us/rigol/screencaptures/40MHz.jpg)
(http://www.dontshock.us/rigol/screencaptures/50MHz.jpg)
V1 = .7(V2)
50MHz (http://www.dontshock.us/rigol/screencaptures/50MHz.jpg)
60MHz (http://www.dontshock.us/rigol/screencaptures/60MHz.jpg)
70MHz (http://www.dontshock.us/rigol/screencaptures/70MHz.jpg)
100Mhz (http://www.dontshock.us/rigol/screencaptures/100MHz.jpg)

EDIT:
My high frequency signals are fine, I shouldn't have taken measurements before closing the shielding back up again.  I just compared the scope with a Rigol DS1102C (100 MHz, 400 MS/s) and that scope has a hard time keeping up!  The modified channels signal is clean and consistently much stronger than the 50 MHz channel.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: EEVblog on February 13, 2010, 10:32:11 pm
This looks super exciting Ross, you may have cracked it!
Please detail your mod as soon as you are able.
Also, what does it look like with a square wave and a normal clip probe? The overshoot and undershoot is an easy way to see how the high frequency response has improved.

Dave.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: EEVblog on February 13, 2010, 10:36:19 pm
Rigol makes some 300 MHz scopes too.  What if the analog front end on the 100 MHz scope is bandwidth limited also, and we've got filters on both models with different values?  What if our *real* bandwidth can be even higher than 100 MHz?

Phil Allison has measured the usable bandwidth here:
http://groups.google.com.au/group/aus.electronics/browse_frm/thread/8db8df6c7f9f710/6edf366688b538db?lnk=gst&q=rigol+phil#6edf366688b538db (http://groups.google.com.au/group/aus.electronics/browse_frm/thread/8db8df6c7f9f710/6edf366688b538db?lnk=gst&q=rigol+phil#6edf366688b538db)
400MHz for a visible and viewable waveform!
So there could certainly be much more to this front end than meets the eye.

Dave.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: xani on February 14, 2010, 12:49:10 am
If that was true, Rigol scope is probably best deal in history, 200Mhz (assumming 5 probes per cycle) for $400, insane...
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rossmoffett on February 14, 2010, 06:53:53 am
I wonder if I could have permission to use someone's photographs of the analog input section?  My digital camera got smashed up the last time I flew and I haven't replaced the LCD yet.

I checked out a function generator from school, I wish I had checked out some 100 MHz scope probes too!  It turns out that this is crucial too.. I should have known, the 50 MHz probes that come with it have their dB plots in the documentation.

EDIT:  FLAWED MEASUREMENT
Here is what a 1 MHz square wave looks like.  There are 150 MHz transients in channel two that don't show up in channel one.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: EEVblog on February 14, 2010, 07:52:27 am
Feel free to use my internal pics.
When testing with a signal generator it's best to use a good coax instead of the probe.

Dave.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rossmoffett on February 14, 2010, 12:46:35 pm
Dave, I know I'm supposed to use BNC connectors, it's just that I don't have them.  ;D This is actually my first oscilloscope so I just have the out-of-box parts and whatever I can check out from school.

I'll do a full how-to when this is peer reviewed, I think, but here's what I found.

At first I thought it would be trivial, it was pretty clear that this was a Butterworth filter from the frequency vs. voltage plots that have been posted, so there should be some row of inductors and capacitors.  I found one, but it was a filter for the AD8370 power.  I figured that out by tracing it to the pin and then checking the datasheet.  Then as I read the datasheet (http://www.analog.com/en/amplifiers-and-comparators/variable-gain-amplifiers/ad8370/products/product.html) (should have thought of this FIRST) I ran into something interesting.  In the app notes they specifically mention using this as a variable gain amplifier for low-resolution AD converters.. like an 8 bit AD converter.  This is on page 19 of 28, and right at the top of the page is a Butterworth filter with a Cauer topology.  This is in case the AD converter can't handle high frequencies.. or in case you want to use the same design for two differently priced oscilloscopes. :D  NO WONDER the part is rubbed out!

VHI is pin 8 and VLO is pin 9, this is the amplified output signal. There are two gold pads on the PCB that are labelled as test points on the DS1102E.  I noticed attenuation here.  Then, looking through the comments on Dave's teardown blog I saw that someone guessed the part number for the smaller, 8-pin part.  It wasn't the right part number, but it fit the bill exactly (this is not an Analog Devices part, though, because it matches none of their ADC drivers (http://www.analog.com/en/amplifiers-and-comparators/differential-amplifiers/products/index.html#ADC_Drivers), not a TI part either (http://www.ti.com/corp/docs/landing/adc-drivers/index.htm?DCMP=hpa_dc_adcdrivers_camp&HQS=NotApplicable+OT+ths4521-aw)).  The only thing that was off was that the VHI and VLO pins were reversed, so I just assume this is the AD converter buffer.  The datasheet reference circuit for the AD9288-40 ADC uses an AD8138.  This doesn't come in a TSSOP-8 package.  In fact, I can't find any op-amp with that configuration in a TSSOP-8 from Analog Devices.

Looking at the board, I noticed that the signal split in two directions at the test point.  One way went to the buffer and the other went through a capacitor..


(http://www.dontshock.us/rigol/hacked/modpreview.jpg)
 (http://www.dontshock.us/rigol/hacked/DS1052E-FrontEnd4_moddedRM.jpg)

Re-organize a bit, and it's clear that there is a high-pass filter straight between signal HI and signal LO.  This is why some of my measurements were out of phase, even though both channels were measuring the same signal.
(values based on in-circuit measurements by a cheap LC meter, not in stone)

(http://www.dontshock.us/rigol/hacked/schemOfFilter.jpeg)

The via hanging off of the inductor has a direct path to the shift register, I'm not sure why.  It's not grounded, and I don't know why it would be tied to a logic high anywhere, not sure what's going on.  There's a via hanging off of the inductor at the top too, I couldn't find where it goes.

So my "hack" was just to remove the capacitor on the VoutHI pin.  I just now took all of the measurements as I was making the drawings, and I took out the other cap on the VoutLO pin.  There doesn't seem to be any additional change, I believe that the AD8370 output is isolated from ground, which means when you sever just one capacitor the whole filter is rendered ineffective.  So all that has to be done is cut the path to the filter somehow.  I removed a capacitor with my soldering iron, you could also just slice the trace (but that's a little dirty).

In closing, your mileage may vary, at your own risk, warranty void and null, etc etc.

Here are some more good pictures, showing how the FFT smooths out with a mod and how a square wave shapes up.  Flip between them quickly and the difference is very noticeable.  Again, channel 1 (yellow) is unmodified, channel 2 (blue) has the filter removed.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rossmoffett on February 15, 2010, 12:08:26 am
If anyone else is willing to try this, I suggest you just pop up one end of the capacitor on pin 8 of the variable gain amplifier (the one right below the topmost round golden test pad).  This will allow you to easily undo the mod later if you wish, and if you're a skilled SMD solder wiz.

I'd love to see what the results are with better lab equipment, is anyone gonna give it a go?
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rossmoffett on February 15, 2010, 02:21:48 am
I did the best I could, used a "BNC to alligator clips" cable and split the output from my high frequency function generator to both channels with short wires.  The stability and accuracy appears MUCH better than when I was using probes, so I charted the unmodified output vs. the modified output.  The voltage gain in the modified channel is very apparent.

I used equivalent time sampling with normal acquisition until I was down to about 10 MHz, then the generator was too unstable and I had to time-average it.

Comparing it to luky315's measured frequency response (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=6.30), it looks like I have over 100 MHz bandwidth now!
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rossmoffett on February 15, 2010, 06:31:20 am
I'm not sure what's going on here, Channel 1 seems to be picking up the transients now.  Maybe I had a poor connection when I took the earlier measurement.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: flolic on February 15, 2010, 07:35:05 am

I'd love to see what the results are with better lab equipment, is anyone gonna give it a go?

Yes, I modified second channel on my 1102E last night. I removed both (HI & LO) caps, btw. they are 160pF on my scope. I don't have any function/signal generator that go beyond 100MHz range, so I used old FM tuner and pick up signal from local oscillator set up at 125MHz.

It seems that mod did not do anything to my scope, signal amplitude on modified channel is just marginally better than unmodified. I used standard probes. Today I will buy some BNC connectors and coax and make high bandwidth 50 ohm terminated probe.

But I noticed another thing when measuring complex signal (square wave, 32MHz xtal osc. and 200kHz osc. with joined outputs). On modified channel you can clearly see higher components of a signal, in a 250MHz range! So it seems that mod is actually working  ;)
Just hope that that is real signal and not some kind of aliasing or ringing... ;D
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rossmoffett on February 15, 2010, 08:19:45 am
Those are in-circuit measurements - I just measured the caps (I kept them) out of circuit and mine are ~160 pF too.  Doh!  There must be something else around to limit bandwidth.. unless you have different size inductors, or maybe there is something behind those vias.

That ADC driver could be a bandwidth limiter, if I could find a match for it.  It's not an 8-lead TSSOP as I posted earlier, I looked closer in zoom images and it seems to be a 10 pin no-lead chip of some sort.  It's so hard to tell, they're tiny!  I still can't find it from Analog Devices, though it must be one of theirs based on the Analog sandwich around it.  I imagine it's classified as a differential op-amp, but I can't find it in that category yet.  It's approximately 2.6 x 2.9 mm (+/- .1 mm) based on the photographs, I found that by comparing to known parts data.

Don't worry about re-installing the filter - if you read the datasheet on the page that I mentioned it notes that the filter is only necessary depending on application.  At least, I think.  The only use those capacitors could have is to hold a voltage stable, but I don't see how that could be necessary.

Given that you have a 100 MHz scope, you should only see marginal improvements at 125 MHz.  There will be a sharp dropoff following that, though.  If you have anything that will generate 100 MHz, check to see what V1/V2 is there.  It should be .7 if channel 2 is of a sufficiently higher bandwidth, as you can see where I posted V1/V2 at 50 MHz.  From my graphs above, you can also see that my good luck starts to end at about 130 MHz.  That's where the modified channel gain starts losing ground to the unmodified channel.  In the app notes for the ADC there's nothing else stopping the signal but the ADC driver, so that may be the next place to look, unless someone finds some filter before the variable gain amplifier.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: jahonen on February 15, 2010, 09:51:19 am
I'm not sure what's going on here, Channel 1 seems to be picking up the transients now.  Maybe I had a poor connection when I took the earlier measurement.

That looks like spurious oscillation. For easy bandwidth check, a high-edge rate digital (repetition frequency can be set to very low frequency, say, 1 kHz) signal is a easy check. One should see rise or fall time of about 0.35/BW if everything is ok. For 100 MHz that translates to 3.5 ns etc. If the rise time is not reduced, then the effective bandwidth for practical measurements is not going to be very significant.

You can get fast edges from just about any digital chip, except from that old 4000-series CMOS. Even old PIC16F877 seems to have about 160 MHz bandwidth (without any other additional loading than scope probe), see here (http://koti.mbnet.fi/jahonen/Electronics/Stuff/Probing-Example.jpg). That contains some probing hints also :)

Regards,
Janne
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rossmoffett on February 15, 2010, 10:10:49 am
I understand spurious oscillation, it's just that the earlier post I made was observing a 1 MHz square wave under identical conditions and the unmodified channel failed to pick up all of the intricacies.  I believe I must have not grounded the probe properly the first time around.  Thanks, though!

OK, I think I have narrowed down what kind of chip the ADC driver is.  I thought I saw an extra pad on one of Dave's close-ups, which would have explained why I couldn't find an 8-lead package, but upon close inspection from top views I can't see that it would be the case.  Browsing the ADC drivers (http://www.analog.com/en/amplifiers-and-comparators/differential-amplifiers/products/index.html#ADC_Drivers) at the Analog Devices website seemed futile, until I checked a supplier.  These chips are available in packages not described on the AD website.  I noticed that the screen print around the part seems to be 3x3 mm.  This leads me to believe they must have some oddball part, but the PCB still looks like it would fit these two parts, which come with the squared edges.

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=AD8350ARMZ20-ND
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=AD8132ARMZ-ND

They are 900 MHz and 350 MHz respectively.  I'll have to crack it open again and take some measurements on gain and voltage to be sure which part it is, still could be any of the other 8 pin parts.  The version with the worst (feasible) bandwidth is the AD8137, with a bandwidth of 110 MHz.  The only lower ones clock at 38 and 30 MHz.  I can find it in a package with bevelled edges in 3x3 mm, but not with the square ones.

and.. here's the AD8138 in the package that's in the scope:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=AD8138ARMZ-ND

A 320 MHz part.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rossmoffett on February 17, 2010, 10:25:15 am
Yes, I modified second channel on my 1102E last night. I removed both (HI & LO) caps, btw. they are 160pF on my scope. I don't have any function/signal generator that go beyond 100MHz range, so I used old FM tuner and pick up signal from local oscillator set up at 125MHz.

It seems that mod did not do anything to my scope, signal amplitude on modified channel is just marginally better than unmodified. I used standard probes. Today I will buy some BNC connectors and coax and make high bandwidth 50 ohm terminated probe.

But I noticed another thing when measuring complex signal (square wave, 32MHz xtal osc. and 200kHz osc. with joined outputs). On modified channel you can clearly see higher components of a signal, in a 250MHz range! So it seems that mod is actually working  ;)
Just hope that that is real signal and not some kind of aliasing or ringing... ;D

I took mine apart again in light of your not noticing much difference.  My digital camera still has a broken screen but I used it to take some pictures anyway, they're of pretty low quality or I'd post them.  I made a quick-flash gif between my scope and yours, I can't find a single component difference!  Those inductors hanging off of the caps that we removed are different values on Dave's scope, but not on mine.

I flipped to the underside, flabbergasted, and realized that those vias drop down to a couple more caps on the underside!  In addition to those, there are two other sets near the signal input jack and the input of the variable gain amplifier.

So I think I might still have found it, those caps on the underside might be the key difference.  There may even be additional filtering on the input side of the variable gain amplifier too.  My curve seems to lack that dramatic filter swoop, seems a little too linear.  I don't know what the underside of the DS1102E looks like though, so I can't say for sure.  All I know is that it seems like my scope is working fantastic with this mod, I wish I had another reference to compare to besides my unmodded channel.  The DS1102C scopes at school are only 400 MS/s with no sinx/x feature, so they aren't good for comparison.  Unfortunately all of our other 100 MHz scopes are analog and long separated from their last cal date.

Shine a light underneath the board and you will see everywhere that signal passes down.  They cut out chunks of the inside layers around those areas.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: flolic on February 17, 2010, 10:52:23 am
Ok, I modified both channels. I don't know if that was wise idea but it's over now  ;D
Few thoughts:
-First, original probe (for 1102E) is declared as 150MHz bandwidth and WILL attenuate higher freq. signals.
-Second, my modified scope (with homemade high bandwidth probe) easily picked up 446MHz PMR radio transmission from few meters away. It is easily seen on FFT display. Unmodified scope can show that transmission only if I put radio right next to the probe.

From that it is obvious that mod is working. But I am still worried about spurious/false readings...
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: flolic on February 17, 2010, 10:58:45 am

I flipped to the underside, flabbergasted, and realized that those vias drop down to a couple more caps on the underside!  In addition to those, there are two other sets near the signal input jack and the input of the variable gain amplifier.

Time to take it apart...
AGAIN!!!  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rossmoffett on February 17, 2010, 05:27:37 pm

I flipped to the underside, flabbergasted, and realized that those vias drop down to a couple more caps on the underside!  In addition to those, there are two other sets near the signal input jack and the input of the variable gain amplifier.

Time to take it apart...
AGAIN!!!  ;D ;D ;D

I traced the two caps near the variable gain amplifier, they're coming off of the eight lead ADC driver chip.  This is to be expected, they're in the datasheets for the ADC drivers, and there are two filtering the power on the ADC driver in the app note for the ADC.

The other filter is below the relay that doesn't appear on Dave's board, right by the input.  I haven't traced it yet, I wonder if you could do in-circuit measurements of the cap and inductors so we can compare?  The cap is huge for a SMT part, looks like a .1 uF.  If you don't have an L meter, could you get the numbers maybe?  My board is a couple of revision ahead of yours, but I can't tell that there is any difference.

I get 3.37 uF and 15.45 uF on the two little caps near the VGA.
194.2 pF on the cap underneath the relay and negative numbers on the inductor measurements.. guess the cheap-o LC meter can't handle this.  They are both marked "580."
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: flolic on February 17, 2010, 06:16:15 pm
Big bottom cap is 210nF.
Two small components next to cap, marked ad 58D are 390k resistors.

Two small caps below VGA must be decoupling capacitors.
Sorry, nothing useful on the bottom side...  :(

(http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/3166/inputbottom.jpg) (http://img716.imageshack.us/i/inputbottom.jpg/)

Maybe we should look for a components between ADC driver and ADC??
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rossmoffett on February 17, 2010, 06:48:45 pm

Sorry, nothing useful on the bottom side...  :(

Not necessarily true, there are other bottom mount components under the ADC support circuit.

There's also an empty set of pads for an IC and three passive components near the bottom of the FPGA on mine.  Did you take more pictures?
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: flolic on February 17, 2010, 08:47:42 pm
Bottom, not so good quality image:

(http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/4974/1102ebottom.th.jpg) (http://img683.imageshack.us/i/1102ebottom.jpg/)
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rossmoffett on February 18, 2010, 05:10:44 am
Once I'm home and there's daylight I'll try hard to get a good shot of mine, there are significant differences on the bottom from that picture.. no potential filters though, I think.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: flolic on February 18, 2010, 10:42:36 am

OK, I think I have narrowed down what kind of chip the ADC driver is.  I thought I saw an extra pad on one of Dave's close-ups, which would have explained why I couldn't find an 8-lead package, but upon close inspection from top views I can't see that it would be the case.  Browsing the ADC drivers (http://www.analog.com/en/amplifiers-and-comparators/differential-amplifiers/products/index.html#ADC_Drivers) at the Analog Devices website seemed futile, until I checked a supplier.  These chips are available in packages not described on the AD website.  I noticed that the screen print around the part seems to be 3x3 mm.  This leads me to believe they must have some oddball part, but the PCB still looks like it would fit these two parts, which come with the squared edges.

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=AD8350ARMZ20-ND
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=AD8132ARMZ-ND

They are 900 MHz and 350 MHz respectively.  I'll have to crack it open again and take some measurements on gain and voltage to be sure which part it is, still could be any of the other 8 pin parts.  The version with the worst (feasible) bandwidth is the AD8137, with a bandwidth of 110 MHz.  The only lower ones clock at 38 and 30 MHz.  I can find it in a package with bevelled edges in 3x3 mm, but not with the square ones.

and.. here's the AD8138 in the package that's in the scope:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=AD8138ARMZ-ND

A 320 MHz part.

No. I think that ADC driver chip is in a LLP-8 package.
Maybe one of these?
http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LMH6552.pdf
http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LMH6553.pdf
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rossmoffett on February 18, 2010, 01:45:23 pm
Looks right to me, exact dimensions and all.  Pinout seems to match.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: mckee on February 19, 2010, 01:04:27 pm
Hello to everybody  my name is Thomas and I am writing from Germany, I was reading the forum as guest , but discussion is so interesting that I will add something . It happened that I bought  DS1022C few years ago, my original firmware was 1.03.02 , but I found on Chinese forum picture of this DSO with soft 03.07.01 so after digging the ne I found it as well with  name
DS1000 firmware , I updated my DSO yesterday and it seems working well, I did not seen any major changes thou.
If somebody need this firmware please write to me or let me know where to drop the file , it is 1.2M zipped so no fit as attachment.
Forum in chinese but with some pics of inside
http://www.ourdev.cn/bbs/bbs_content.jsp?bbs_sn=3428440&bbs_page_no=1&search_mode=4&search_text=zxwr7282&bbs_id=9999
If you guys needs some help with chinese it is no problem to translate, I read chinese .

My question is how to upgrade and if its possible to 1022CD , is it only matter of the adding LH1116 Logic analyzer module or something more?
Thank you for understanding, if I missed this info in previous pages ;D
Thanks for update.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rossmoffett on February 19, 2010, 03:42:00 pm
There is no "Logic Analyzer" module installed there.

The button to enable the logic analyzer is cut out, but the pad for the button is still on the PCB.  If you slide the other buttons onto it and press, it will tell you that the module is not installed.  I don't know what that means, or how to make it think it's installed, but the header for the logic analyzer is on the board.
Title: New and better data
Post by: rossmoffett on February 21, 2010, 07:00:05 am
Today I made two BNC cables and ran them in parallel to ch1 and ch2 from the sine wave generator.  I tried to take measurements about every 1/2 MHz, but usually at least 1 MHz.  The higher resolution gives some really interesting results!

For starters, I have to admit my test faults.  I tried to keep three significant figures and a filled screen for precision, so every now and then I would adjust the attenuator on the sine wave generator.  If you see both ch1 and ch2 moving, that's what's going on.  It could also be because I switched ranges, or because the generator is generally unstable.

But.. look around the peaks.  When my modded channel peaks, my unmodded channel drops, and vice-versa!  What's going on here?  Also, because I took the data to 150 MHz, you can see that there may be additional filtering going on somewhere. 

Around 100 MHz, my modded channel starts dropping while the unmodded channel stays pretty constant.  I think this should mean that I've succeeded, but what's going on before that?

Any ideas?

Dave, haven't heard from you in this thread for a while.   ;)
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: jahonen on February 21, 2010, 07:26:33 am
I suppose you didn't use any terminator at the scope end? Failure to do this will result reflections, which ruin your otherwise perfectly good data. Check also that the generator has 50 ohms output impedance. It looks like that you got the reflection peaks/valleys perfectly measured, just as the transmission line theory predicts, though. :)

(http://koti.mbnet.fi/jahonen/Electronics/DIY%201k%20probe/images/Inline_terminator.jpg)

For the record, when we measured my colleagues 100 MHz Rigol (using a VNA as a signal source) using that kind of terminated setup, we determined the -3 dB frequency to be about 170 MHz. Otherwise it was pretty flat.

Regards,
Janne

Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rossmoffett on February 21, 2010, 08:05:20 am
So THAT'S what those are for!

Thanks.   :D

170 MHz stock??  That's amazing!
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: jahonen on February 21, 2010, 09:05:12 am
Yes, it was perfectly stock when we measured it. I think that it is quite normal to have shallow roll-off. For example, for my 300 MHz Agilent MSO6034A, the calibration measurement report says that at nominal 300 MHz, test pass limit is -3 dB and actual measured value is -0.8…-0.6 dB.

Regards,
Janne
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rossmoffett on March 05, 2010, 03:59:53 am
I tried adding a 50 ohm resistance in my BNC cables and I still get that signal ghosting to some degree.  Using my probes I don't get that effect, but I feel like I can't really be sure about this hack until I can compare it to a quality scope.  I guess I'll have to borrow one with some commercially made BNC cables, but I still only have access to a 100 MHz unit.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: macpod on March 05, 2010, 04:36:16 pm
I noticed the DS1052E has an option MemDepth which lets you set the device to Normal (16K/8K) or Long Mem (1M/512K).

I could understand having this setting so you could save more waveforms on the device, but is there another benefit to having this setting that I am overlooking?

Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Brett on March 06, 2010, 10:46:50 pm
I just bought 3 Rigol DS1052E's in addition to the one I already have.  Some of you have purchased yours through my seller as well, and my boss is getting one now too.  Of the three, one was for my buddy and two were for work.  Everyone loves them.  These are the perfect little scopes for the lab and travel.

One bug I found recently is if you try to save a file with an underscore before it '_', it locks up the firmware.  Power cycling restores it, but beware!

BTW: The price I got on the 3 scope bundle was $407 each shipped.  Single scopes are regularly going out as $420 shipped.  I also had no problems with US Customs on the larger 3 scope package.

Enjoy these pictures:

(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/3818/triorigolds1053e.jpg)

(http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/4233/quadpackrigolds1053e.jpg)
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Brett on March 08, 2010, 05:11:26 am
I noticed the DS1052E has an option MemDepth which lets you set the device to Normal (16K/8K) or Long Mem (1M/512K).

I could understand having this setting so you could save more waveforms on the device, but is there another benefit to having this setting that I am overlooking?

The real benefit is that if you REALLY need to over sample at a relatively slow timebase (10s or 100s of milliseconds), you can with the Long Mem.  The downside to Long Mem, is that if you try to save it to USB drive, it takes quite a while to do so.  WHen I first used it, I thought the scope had locked up.  Later I learned to take 5-10 minute breaks after pressing the save button, as it creates a >20MB CSV file.

If you are saving some analog waveform, and there are not a lot of fast transitions... setting the memory depth to Normal is plenty sufficient.

If you are on the other hand trying to capture 5 minutes worth of I²C or SPI data, then by all means turn on the Long Mem.  Analyzing and graphing 800K+ points of data is another problem you will have, but it's there if you need it.

The Normal mode is going to be your bet bet overall, and for analog waveforms I wouldn't even bother with the CSV output.  Just save as BMP and make sure you have the waveform positioned by of a pair of major grid axis to be able to gauge amplitude and duration accurately.  I thought the CSV with analog waveforms would help me create some more detailed EXCEL graphs.  Well Excel only graphs 32000 points at a time, and because there is not a lot of precision in the A/D samples, you end up with a lot of the same numbers in your graph, and the end result is a nice stair-stepped waveform (instead of a smooth line).  There is probably a way to filter the data better to integrate and smooth things out, but I've yet to work on that one.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: joelby on March 08, 2010, 11:47:26 am
Try saving it as a WFM file. It is a binary format, so it is much more compact and much quicker to save to flash than CSV.

Apparently the software that comes with the scope might process them, but I haven't bothered. Just use the Matlab script to do it: http://www.mathworks.com.au/matlabcentral/fileexchange/18999-read-binary-rigol-waveforms . It will probably also work in the free Matlab-alike, Octave, or you could examine the code and write a WFM to CSV conversion tool pretty easily. Something like gnuplot will probably have more success than Excel with plotting many points.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Brett on March 09, 2010, 06:47:08 pm
Cool, thanks Joel!

EDIT: As an alternative, if you don't want to download Octave and get it all set up, here is a little utility based on the readRigolWaveform.m function to decode WMF files:
http://qt.tn.tudelft.nl/~gsteele/rigol2dat/
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: DavidDLC on March 10, 2010, 09:21:42 pm
I haven't read the hole topic, but I just found this out !!!


http://hackaday.com/2010/03/10/50mhz-to-100mhz-scope-conversion/#comments
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: DavidDLC on March 10, 2010, 09:22:51 pm
Whaaattttt never mind, the took it from here.

Sorry.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: loydb on March 11, 2010, 12:55:09 pm
Another newbie stumbling here from Hack-a-day. I'm in the market for my first scope, this is fascinating reading.

Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: JimBeam on March 11, 2010, 07:31:13 pm
Hello everybody.

I am new to the forum - but I think I have to correct a few things here...  :-[

The circuit between pins 8 and 9 and the ADC amp indeed limits the bandwidth to about 20MHz - when you activate the "BW limit" from the channel menu!

When you take a close look on the part in the middle (D1), you see a small grey bar on the right hand side - as this is neither a cap nor a coil, but a diode, supposedly a varactor diode! And the parts at the upper and lower end of the "filter" are no caps either, they are simple resistors (R1 and R2). R1 goes to ground, R2 is HF-shunted to ground via C3. The control signal comes from somewhere via R3 and biases the diode.

The series circuit of C1, C2 and D1 is a small condenser in the range of well below 1pF to some pF - depending on the control voltage and thus the capacitance of D1.

When you remove C1 you do not only remove this serial capacitance that limits the bandwidth in any case (at any value of the control voltage) - but you also disable the BW Limit function from the menu altogether!

Btw., when you look at the real circuit, it now is obvious, that after removing C1 a removal of C2 doesn't change anything more...

Andreas

Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on March 11, 2010, 07:54:20 pm
so are you saying that if the variac diode is shorted all filtered limits are removed so the scope will be open to all frequencies ?
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rct on March 11, 2010, 08:34:54 pm
Another newbie stumbling here from Hack-a-day. I'm in the market for my first scope, this is fascinating reading.

I'm in the same boat, doing research on my first scope purchase.  I just posted a summary (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14568161&postcount=844) of some of the things I've learned at the RCgroups.com forum (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=663958).  The Rigol thread on that forum has been running for three years.  Some of the discussion is about other models of the rigol (c,ca,...) but there is a lot of useful info there if you can wade through the 56+ pages.


It would be ideal if there was a wiki or something similar for summarizing the Rigol DS1052E info to help other newcomers.

Thanks,
--Rob
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rossmoffett on March 11, 2010, 09:27:36 pm
Hello everybody.

I am new to the forum - but I think I have to correct a few things here...  :-[


Respectfully, your circuit is missing some information.  There are two vias - possibly both controls (maybe one for the selectable BW limit and one for 50 MHz limit?).  R1 in your circuit is not going to ground, it meets a via and connects to a capacitor which goes to ground.  I did notice, and note, that the hack only requires the removal of one capacitor though.  I'm not familiar with this type of circuit, so if you could elaborate some more that would be awesome!

I think given this new information, it might be possible that this could be modified with a software hack, rather than a hardware hack.  Soon I'll be able to mess with that a bit more and see what happens.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on March 11, 2010, 10:53:55 pm
thats true, if you can get it to make the viarac go to it's maximum value all the time it would be "open" to all frequencies.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rossmoffett on March 12, 2010, 04:41:09 am
I just verified that this does in fact disable the bandwidth limit option in the Ch2 (modified) menu.

So the next step is to take it apart again and check those vias to see what kind of signals they're giving.  One of them should respond only to the bandwidth limit select, the other is likely the 50 MHz limit, and perhaps there's a way to bypass the other without cutting the trace.

Otherwise, fiddling with the software may be the only choice.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: JimBeam on March 12, 2010, 06:11:47 am
Respectfully, your circuit is missing some information.  There are two vias - possibly both controls (maybe one for the selectable BW limit and one for 50 MHz limit?).  R1 in your circuit is not going to ground, it meets a via and connects to a capacitor which goes to ground.

Ooops, you are right! I did not measure this via - just estimating from the circuit that it was ground...

So we obviously have two control signals (circuit below), which could mean that this second signal indeed is causing the bandwidth "problem" - but before I take any further assumptions, I'm going to take some live measurements on my scope this evening. ;-)

so are you saying that if the variac diode is shorted all filtered limits are removed so the scope will be open to all frequencies ?

Not exactly for all frequencies, but at least to the limit the amplifier poses - and not if shorted, but if the diode would be removed. (The caps and resistors still present lowpass filters on both pin8 and 9, but this should be neglectible).

Andreas
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on March 12, 2010, 07:32:21 am


Not exactly for all frequencies, but at least to the limit the amplifier poses - and not if shorted, but if the diode would be removed. (The caps and resistors still present lowpass filters on both pin8 and 9, but this should be neglectible).

Andreas

Well thats what i meant, obviously at some point due to the scope sampling rate and it circuit limitations there will be a maximum limit but a more natural one, it seems that the scope has been deliberately restricted
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: jgibson on March 13, 2010, 06:04:32 pm
Even with the mod, this scope wouldn't be able to handle (due to BW) USB 2.0 (480mhz) eye diagram correct?

As I read that 1.5ghz of BW is need to get accurate USB 2.0 measurements.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on March 13, 2010, 06:10:18 pm
probablt not, the scope has a "bigge brother" capable of 100 MHz so it is the general concensus that the two are the same one but the 50 MHz version has had a limitation put on it
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: jgibson on March 13, 2010, 06:14:14 pm
probablt not, the scope has a "bigge brother" capable of 100 MHz so it is the general concensus that the two are the same one but the 50 MHz version has had a limitation put on it

Thanks for the info, still a good deal for 100mhz.. just was hoping it met my needs.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on March 13, 2010, 06:21:07 pm
well we won't know until it is done, the scope samples 1GS/s (1 billion samples per second) in single channel mode so you have this to consider as well, with a 480 MHz signal that will be just over 2 samples per waveform, you will need at least 10 samples per cycle to acurately display the signal so thats 100 MHz although you may get way with a little more. There is also the actual limitations of the input circuitry
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: jgibson on March 13, 2010, 06:46:14 pm
well we won't know until it is done, the scope samples 1GS/s (1 billion samples per second) in single channel mode so you have this to consider as well, with a 480 MHz signal that will be just over 2 samples per waveform, you will need at least 10 samples per cycle to acurately display the signal so thats 100 MHz although you may get way with a little more. There is also the actual limitations of the input circuitry

Thanks for the info, reading http://www.analogzone.com/iot_1115.pdf suggests 1.5ghz as a minimum. Also this note about bandwidth make me think this scope has no chance to measure USB 2.0.
http://www.analogzone.com/iot_1115.pdf
Quote
Sample rate must also be considered. Many oscilloscopes on the market today incorporate a form of interleaving, where by the maximum specified sample rate of the oscilloscope is achievable when only using one or two channels of a four-channel oscilloscope. Insufficient sample rate will lower the measurement bandwidth of your oscilloscope and result in signal aliasing. One key to good measurement is to ensure that you have sufficient sample rate on a per-channel basis for all the channels you want to simultaneously use on the oscilloscope. For oscilloscopes with 2-Ghz bandwidth, and greater, the sample rate of the oscilloscope should be at least two times the bandwidth of the oscilloscope. Therefore, for a 2ghz oscilloscope, the per-channel sample rate should be a minimum of 4 G/samples sec.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on March 13, 2010, 06:49:14 pm


Thanks for the info, reading http://www.analogzone.com/iot_1115.pdf suggests 1.5ghz as a minimum. Also this note about bandwidth make me think this scope has no chance to measure USB 2.0.
http://www.analogzone.com/iot_1115.pdf
Quote

Well that's what I said
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: bushing on March 15, 2010, 12:19:30 am
I just verified that this does in fact disable the bandwidth limit option in the Ch2 (modified) menu.

So the next step is to take it apart again and check those vias to see what kind of signals they're giving.  One of them should respond only to the bandwidth limit select, the other is likely the 50 MHz limit, and perhaps there's a way to bypass the other without cutting the trace.

Otherwise, fiddling with the software may be the only choice.

To each his own -- I'd see fiddling with the software as the first choice, not the last one.  Much cleaner. :)  Sadly, IDA Pro can't handle Blackfin DSP code, leaving me to deal with objdump.

In the hopes of seeing something useful, I yanked off the 24LC04 I2C EEPROM attached to the Blackfin DSP, in the hopes of finding something obvious -- I was disappointed with what I found:
Code: [Select]
0000000: 0104 ffff 1700 0000 00ff ffff 8025 0000  .............%..
0000010: 0009 0001 0001 0100 a086 0100 1900 0000  ................
0000020: 0000 803f 0000 0001 a086 0100 e7ff 0000  ...?............
0000030: 0000 803f 0000 0000 0000 0100 0000 0700  ...?............
0000040: 0000 0000 0000 0000 cdcc cc3d 1400 b5ff  ...........=....
0000050: 0300 9600 0000 0000 0100 0000 0000 0000  ................
0000060: 0000 ffff 4042 0f00 0000 0000 0000 0000  ....@B..........
0000070: 0000 0000 a086 0100 0000 0000 0000 0000  ................
0000080: 0000 0000 0000 0800 0020 0000 0000 0000  ......... ......
0000090: 0800 0010 0500 0000 bd37 0635 5c8f c23e  .........7.5\..>
00000a0: 0000 0000 0000 0000 0002 1900 e7ff 0000  ................
00000b0: bd37 8635 0000 0000 bd37 8635 0000 0000  .7.5.....7.5....
00000c0: 0000 0000 0000 0000 0100 0000 0000 0100  ................
00000d0: cdcc 4c3e cdcc 4c3e 0100 0000 0100 0000  ..L>..L>........
00000e0: 0100 0000 0000 0003 0101 07ff 4042 0f00  ............@B..
00000f0: 0000 0000 4042 0f00 0000 0000 0000 0000  ....@B..........
0000100: 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000  ................
0000110: 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 ffff bd37 8635  .............7.5
0000120: 00ff ffff bd37 8635 0000 0000 0000 0000  .....7.5........
0000130: 0100 01ff 0000 0000 0101 0101 0101 0101  ................
0000140: 0101 0001 0000 0000 0100 ffff 3aa3 14a9  ............:...
0000150: 00ff 0000 0001 0203 0405 0607 0001 0203  ................
0000160: 0405 0607 0000 0000 0000 0000 0007 0700  ................
0000170: 0007 0708 0202 0202 0202 0202 0202 0202  ................
0000180: 0202 0202 0000 0202 0202 0202 0202 0202  ................
0000190: 0202 0202 0202 0000 8ded b5a0 f7c6 b03e  ...............>
00001a0: 0100 00ff 0000 0000 ffff ffff 0000 0000  ................
00001b0: ffff ffff 0000 0000 ffff ffff 0000 0000  ................
00001c0: ffff ffff 0000 0000 ffff ffff 0000 0000  ................
00001d0: ffff ffff 0000 0000 ffff ffff 0000 0000  ................
00001e0: ffff ffff 0000 0000 ffff ffff 0000 0000  ................
00001f0: ffff ffff 0000 0000 ffff ffff 0000 0000  ................

I'm not seeing anything that looks remotely like a model number or serial number.  This was from a DS1052E -- anyone else care to do the same so we can compare?

The firmware images don't appear to be signed, so they could be modified easily -- they are 4194325-byte files, which seems to me like a 21-byte header plus a 4MB firmware image.   The header is:

0000000: 4453 3130 3030 4520 2020 3032 2e30 322e 3032 2e30 30  DS1000E   02.02.02.00

There's no room for a hash, so you could do whatever you want to the file.   Unfortunately, this means that there's no sort of bootloader which could recover corrupted firmware, so your options would be to desolder the NOR flash holding the firmware and reprogram it using a chip programmer, or try to get the 13-pin JTAG-looking connector working.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rossmoffett on March 15, 2010, 04:16:50 am
Here you go:
Secret serial commands (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13549739&postcount=727)
Programming guide (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14475634&postcount=830)

Sorry for the other forum registration, but I can't attach them here due to file size limits and the programming guide is essential.  It communicates via National Instruments VISA commands, you'll have to write your own software to do it.  Python has an easy library for interfacing with VISA devices once you successfully install the drivers from your CD.  I just don't have the time because of school for the next month and a half or so, so I hope you guys figure out the rest!  There's firmware for the MSO version there too, which I'm sure is very interesting.  Deep in the thread somewhere were some pictures and circuit sketches of the logic analyser head.

Thanks hackaday for all of the attention to this great hack!
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rf-loop on March 15, 2010, 06:14:22 am
Hello!

I have many times see that peoples share here some files for Rigol.
Why this all.  Most good place to get all info is official original Rigol!
Also this proof that peoples use updated last officially released info.

http://www.rigol.com/en/index.aspx

This is place to get info.
Go to service&support, member resources.

There are official last FW updates, there are all officially released and updated manuals and all other files. (last week I find there all updated info, also FW updates (00.02.02.SP2) and all manuals up to dated. (there is also user area and members area, both are open for all) (also chinese language sides = better info).

----------------------------
Surprice: later today there are not anymore these FW update files.


Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: JimBeam on March 15, 2010, 07:36:23 am
... This was from a DS1052E -- anyone else care to do the same so we can compare?

Here is mine (DS1052E too):
Code: [Select]
000000  01 04 FF FF 0C 00 00 00 00 FF FF FF 80 25 00 00  .............%..
000010  00 09 00 01 00 01 01 FF 40 42 0F 00 00 00 FF FF  ........@B......
000020  00 00 80 3F 00 00 00 00 D0 07 00 00 00 00 FF FF  ...?............
000030  00 00 80 3F 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 07 00  ...?............
000040  00 00 00 00 00 FF FF FF CD CC CC 3D 14 00 B5 FF  ...........=....
000050  03 00 96 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  ................
000060  00 00 FF FF 00 C2 EB 0B 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  ................
000070  00 00 00 00 A0 86 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  ................
000080  00 00 00 00 00 00 08 00 00 40 00 00 00 00 00 00  .........@......
000090  08 00 00 10 05 00 FF FF BD 37 06 35 5C 8F C2 3E  .........7.5\..>
0000A0  00 00 00 00 77 BE 1F 3E 00 02 19 00 E7 FF FF FF  ....w..>........
0000B0  BD 37 86 35 00 00 00 FF BD 37 86 35 00 00 FF FF  .7.5.....7.5....
0000C0  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 FF 01 00 00 00 00 00 01 FF  ................
0000D0  CD CC 4C 3E CD CC 4C 3E 01 00 00 00 01 00 FF FF  ..L>..L>........
0000E0  01 00 00 00 00 00 00 03 01 01 07 FF 40 42 0F 00  ............@B..
0000F0  00 00 00 00 40 42 0F 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  ....@B..........
000100  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 FF  ................
000110  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 FF FF BD 37 86 35  .............7.5
000120  00 FF FF FF BD 37 86 35 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 FF  .....7.5........
000130  01 00 01 FF 00 00 00 00 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01  ................
000140  01 01 00 01 00 00 00 FF 01 00 FF FF FA 5C 78 6B  .............\xk
000150  00 FF 00 00 00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 00 01 02 03  ................
000160  04 05 06 07 00 00 FF FF 00 00 00 00 00 07 07 00  ................
000170  00 07 07 08 02 02 02 02 02 02 02 02 02 02 02 02  ................
000180  02 02 02 02 00 00 02 02 02 02 02 02 02 02 02 02  ................
000190  02 02 02 02 02 02 FF FF 8D ED B5 A0 F7 C6 B0 3E  ...............>
0001A0  01 00 00 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF  ................
0001B0  FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF  ................
0001C0  FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF  ................
0001D0  FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF  ................
0001E0  FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF  ................
0001F0  FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF 00  ................

Andreas
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: bushing on March 15, 2010, 11:27:34 am
Here you go:
Secret serial commands (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13549739&postcount=727)
Programming guide (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14475634&postcount=830)

Sorry for the other forum registration, but I can't attach them here due to file size limits and the programming guide is essential.  It communicates via National Instruments VISA commands, you'll have to write your own software to do it.  Python has an easy library for interfacing with VISA devices once you successfully install the drivers from your CD.  I just don't have the time because of school for the next month and a half or so, so I hope you guys figure out the rest!  There's firmware for the MSO version there too, which I'm sure is very interesting.  Deep in the thread somewhere were some pictures and circuit sketches of the logic analyser head.

Thanks hackaday for all of the attention to this great hack!

Actually, I bought this before hackaday posted it ... dammit ... :)

This looks rather interesting:

Quote
:INFO:MODEL DS1xxxx
Sets(!!) the model returned by "*IDN?" and shown in the "System Info" dialog.

Can someone try sending :INFO:MODEL DS1102E on a DS1052E and see if it lifts the frequency cutoff?  I don't have any RS232 cables handy, and haven't had much luck getting the TDM stuff to compile for OS X. :/
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: JimBeam on March 15, 2010, 11:42:06 am
Can someone try sending :INFO:MODEL DS1102E on a DS1052E and see if it lifts the frequency cutoff?  I don't have any RS232 cables handy, and haven't had much luck getting the TDM stuff to compile for OS X. :/
Yes, I tried it - it does not work... Also, when you powercycle the unit, it becomes a DS1052E again. The firmware also checks the serialnumber, which starts with DS1ED for the 1052 and with DS1EB for the 1102 series. Hmm, a wonder what might happen, if you change model and the serialnumber..........  :-X
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on March 15, 2010, 12:38:53 pm
well go on then and let us know the result  ;D
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: JimBeam on March 15, 2010, 12:52:36 pm
well go on then and let us know the result  ;D

Well, I though, you could read in between the lines, that I already did so - and when I tell you that I just closed the cover of my new DS1102E for the moment and now look for a schematic and/or pictures of the LA part of the 1xxxD, guess what this means..... ;D
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on March 15, 2010, 12:56:35 pm
you did it ? converted a DS1052E into a DS1102E ? brilliant !!! (or did I not read between the lines properly ?)
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: JimBeam on March 15, 2010, 01:31:25 pm
you did it ? converted a DS1052E into a DS1102E ? brilliant !!! (or did I not read between the lines properly ?)
At least, the SYSTEM INFO page states so  ;D, and when you look at this I would say YES!:

I am not sure, if the circuit of the 1052 and 1102 are indeed identical, but for me it is identical enough  ;D
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: abbtech on March 15, 2010, 02:21:25 pm
Nice work! I wonder what Rigol thinks about your clever hack.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: JimBeam on March 15, 2010, 02:30:43 pm
Nice work! I wonder what Rigol thinks about your clever hack.
I think, they don't really like it - but if some people, who never would have considered buying a DS1102 (like me), now buy a DS1052 - it is still raised profit!
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on March 15, 2010, 05:21:35 pm
well they are still making a profit, infact I can't really see why they bothered doing what they did, as usual economics has gotten in the way. They are certainly making a profit on the 50 MHz versions or they would not sell them, basically the people that are buying the scopes for what they truly are are being charged through the nose, let me see I got my 50 MHz scope for £ 239, I left negative feedback because I decided that the trace was too noisy, he instantly agreed to a £ 50 refund if I changed the negative feedback. so I actually got it for £ 189 and I will assume that he did not loose out, so maybe the £ 50 was profit ? now the 100 MHz version was being sold for another £ 100, thats another £ 100 profit. But rigol obviously only had to develop one scope !

So when will we have some instructions on how to do this ? cmon this has got to be shared
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: JimBeam on March 15, 2010, 06:35:40 pm
So when will we have some instructions on how to do this ? cmon this has got to be shared
Still didn't get it? It's easy as 123, no instructions needed - just call your device the right name (DS1102E) and serialnumber (DS1EDxxxx)
with the "secret serial commands" via the NI-VISA interface (see entry from bushing a few posts above)...

Sorry, I won't post a patch program here - this seems a bit too hot to me, though even this would be possible 8) ....
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on March 15, 2010, 09:35:51 pm
ok so just to point out I'm useless at programming and that sort of thing the most I can currently handle is basic on a pic (although I'm hoping to improve). are you saying that you plug the rigol into a pc and rewrite the values via an interfacing program ?
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Mark_O on March 16, 2010, 02:33:14 am
At least, the SYSTEM INFO page states so  ;D, and when you look at this I would say YES!:

  • the lowpass switching diode (I did not find a SMD part with "FC" mark, but I guess now it's only a switching diode) is reverse biased with around 5V when BW limit is OFF (see diagram, it was forward biased with 100mV before...!)
  • the timebase goes down to 2ns/div
  • an 80MHz signal shows about the same amplitude as a 50MHz signal, a 150MHz signal is attenuated by only about 5-6dB

I am not sure, if the circuit of the 1052 and 1102 are indeed identical, but for me it is identical enough  ;D

Jim, congrats on putting 2 and 2 together.  Good luck on the deluge of people now wanting you to do a trivial operation for them automatically, and an endless stream of questions.

One very quick test you can always perform, to confirm BW extension unambiguously, is simply check the rise time on a very fast pulse.  You should see that it has dropped from ~7 nS to ~3.5 nS.  (I'd recommend just using 50-ohm BNC cables for this, and not a capacitive probe.)  When I check it on my DS1102CD from an HP pulse-gen with ~500 pS risetimes, I see ~3.8 nS, which is about right, considering source/cable/scope (square root of the sum of the squares).

Tip: After making this transformation with your magic wand, I'd recommend using the fairly slow Utility/Self-Cal procedure to complete the process.  Which of course is what they do at the Factory, after they decide which label to stick on the front.

- Mark
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Mark_O on March 16, 2010, 02:47:58 am
Nice work! I wonder what Rigol thinks about your clever hack.

Alan,

you're making the rather big assumption that Rigol knows anything about this hack.  Which, I can assure you, they do not.  Especially 3 hours after it was found.

They may stumble across it some day, but it's not like they have Support people reading the Forums and looking to help their customers.  Rigol has been one of the least customer-friendly companies I've ever encountered.  So unless someone here with the brains of a pinhead e-mails them (or contacts their US support people), to ask what they think about it, or "does this really work?", it probably won't be an issue for some time.

However, depending on how much publicity this gets (and I can see people with SFB broadcasting this far and wide in much more public forums), sales of 1052-models will rise, and 1102-models will eventually fall off.  Then Rigol will respond by removing certain commands without question-marks (I'll let you guess which ones) from their updated firmwares.

- Mark
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Mark_O on March 16, 2010, 03:04:06 am
ok so just to point out I'm useless at programming and that sort of thing...

Are you capable of using one of the simple demo/test programs floating around, to just type in simple text commands and see the results?  Things like, e.g. ":INFO:MODEL?".  Having done that, are you then able to type the same command without a ?-mark, and supply your own replacement value?

Viola!

There isn't any "programming" required at all.  If there's not already a pre-compiled little App like this on your CD (I don't have an E or D-series unit to know), I'm sure someone will come up with a pointer to one that's already out there.

- Mark

P.S.  And yes, you have to plug in either a serial or USB cable to a PC (and select a port!) to be able to send these commands to the Rigols.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Mark_O on March 16, 2010, 03:26:14 am
well they are still making a profit, infact I can't really see why they bothered doing what they did, as usual economics has gotten in the way...

These comments, as well as the remainder of your ranting is complete rubbish.  You have no clue what you're talking about.  Sorry, Simon.  Just because you "can't see why", doesn't mean that there isn't a very sound reason why.  If it weren't for the ability to offer a range of products at differing price-points, many products wouldn't exist at all.  Lots of manufacturers do it every day.  And thank goodness for all of us.

When Rigol had their previous C-series out, do you actually think they built 4-DIFFERENT models, with different logic circuits, PCBs, and layouts for the 25 MHz, 40, 60 and 100 MHz units?  Nonsense.  They designed and built a single unit, with some mechanism for setting its capabilities (internal jumpers, whatever).  In this case, they're doing it with software, and left a rather large door open.  Not the smartest thing in the world to do, considering who they're selling to (economy-minded EE's and hobbyists).

Do you think that when Tek or Agilent or LeCroy or whoever make a _range_ of instruments available, they go through and put different quality components on each model, to justify the pricing differentials?  If so, you are sadly mistaken.  In this case, you're *itching about a $200 difference on 2 Rigol models.  In those other cases, we're talking about $thousands.  Of course, there they are a lot more clever about it.  ;)

- Mark
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: bushing on March 16, 2010, 03:55:34 am
Well, I though, you could read in between the lines, that I already did so - and when I tell you that I just closed the cover of my new DS1102E for the moment and now look for a schematic and/or pictures of the LA part of the 1xxxD, guess what this means..... ;D

Fine, fine, take all the glory and girls ... I should have listened to the voices in my head when I saw those strings looking through the firmware. ;)  Kidding ... actually, Dave himself was the first to suggest this possibility (http://www.eevblog.com/2009/10/12/eevblog-37-rigol-ds1052e-oscilloscope-teardown/#comment-2116).  I'll give it a try, as soon as I get this thing put back together ... I still wonder where they're storing that info.

Actually, while I still have the thing in pieces, let me document a few things I found, in case they're useful to someone later --


Lemme know if you find those LA schematics, please. :)
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rf-loop on March 16, 2010, 06:01:27 am
Here is picture about RigolDS1102E and DS1052Et.

Sorry pictures quality is not good becouse fast napshot...

Both Rigol get same signal from HP8161A with double output.
(outputs are not exactly same but well enough for this purpose)

Signal risetime is <1,3ns

As you can see in pictures, 1052 and 1102 have now same risetime (ans simple it means also very much same BW)
Later I will test with 70ps pulse and try look more deep.

With 10kHz 300mVp-p both scope show 300 (exactly 302) mVp-p. And same level with 100MHz. 1102, 240mVp-p ; 1052mod, 242mVp-p (note that I have also find that 1052mod have littlebit more noise and I measure p-p!) Bot measured realtime and 8 average (sinx "fake" of course OFF). If not noise issue these both looks nearly same. (some now unknown small TRIG difference in special situations)

Do not look exactly numbers in Rigol display on these pictures, there are all time variations so randomly these numbers on the display just at shutter open time in camera, in real both of scopes roll same numbers randomly).

You can see that modified 1052 have some more noise what can better see in infinite persist display. (I have not check where from noise is coming... remember that 1052 and 1102 front end is also different!)

First there is infinite persist and Equaltime sampling, display dots. Both scopes are started exactly same time.
Bottom pictures Equtime and average 32, display lines.

Here you can download this picture (download gives better quality and you can also read Rigol display):
http://www.box.net/shared/nnclbrinvs

Also I measure BW with normal sin signal. Looks like same. (very small differencies)

I find some small differency in trig quality but it need also more investigations..

In this time I personally hope that peoples do NOT make big noise about this... specially in many different internet stores "review" articles.  Rigol is not stupid (world #2 in scopes)... and maybe they make some not so nice things... and it means money.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: JimBeam on March 16, 2010, 06:04:29 am
Fine, fine, take all the glory and girls ...
You can have one of mine  :D

I still wonder where they're storing that info.
I still think it is the EEPROM - in a scrambled way.

I dunno what's actually stored on that 24LC04; the device will power on without it attached to the board, but it hangs at the loading screen.[/li][/list]
And that's why I think, the model info is stored in it - the rigol simply doesn't know who he is without it...

There's an 8-pin card edge connector on the board, directly adjacent to the EEPROM.  I had hoped that it was a factory programming interface for that EEPROM, but instead it's something quite different:  It's the SPI master bus, and you could connect a SPI flash chip to it and the Blackfin would boot from it (according to the datasheet).  If we number the pins as 1 <notch> 2 3 4 on the top and 5 6 7 <notch> 8 on the bottom, then the pins appear to be SCK <notch> MISO GND MOSI / PF2 Vcc GND <notch> BMODE0.  BMODE1 is shorted to Vcc; pull BMODE0 to ground to enable booting from external SPI flash.  This is probably how they program the units in the factory, and could be used to recover from a bad firmware flash.
Ahhh, that was one of the remaining secrets I encountered the last days.... Thanks for demystifying!

There's also a (presumably) perfectly usable JTAG port for the Blackfin -- pinout seems to be (in order from 1-14) Vref !EMU <empty> GND GND TMS GND TCK GND !TRST GND TDI GND TDO, but I haven't tried it.
And another think I was about to find out.

The six-pin header near the Altera chip is the programming header for the Lattice CPLD; I didn't bother trying it, presumably it's fused off.
You're perfect - that was the last on my list!  ;D

Lemme know if you find those LA schematics, please. :)
With the biggest pleasure!

Btw., does anyone have photos from the cable within the 1102 that goes from the 40-pin header to the front? Is it really only a cable? What pinning (Header is 40 pin, connector is 68 pin)? And also are there photos from connector area on the bottom side of the PCB in the LA adapter box?

Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Mark_O on March 16, 2010, 06:21:04 am
Fine, fine, take all the glory and girls...

LMAO.  If only it were so easy.  ;)  Thanks for all the details on the SPI interface.  That's good stuff.

Quote
Lemme know if you find those LA schematics, please. :)

Do you mean these schematics (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=663958&page=26#post11714861) that Trevor came up with, over a year ago? 

- Mark
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: JimBeam on March 16, 2010, 06:34:17 am
I think RIGOL is already aware of our thread - as it was announced on Hack'A'Day and at rcgroups.com - which is frequented by RIGOL people...

Do you mean these schematics (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=663958&page=26#post11714861) that Trevor came up with, over a year ago? 
I was aware of this thread (see my first sentence above  ;) ), but that's only part of the story - we need to know which signal on the 40-pin header is what.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Mark_O on March 16, 2010, 06:34:48 am
There are official last FW updates...

Surprice: later today there are not anymore these FW update files.

Yep.  Here today, gone... today!  That was certainly quick.  Makes you wonder...

- Mark
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: JimBeam on March 16, 2010, 06:39:32 am
Yep.  Here today, gone... today!  That was certainly quick.  Makes you wonder...
Wow - that was quick...  :D
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Mark_O on March 16, 2010, 06:50:25 am
I think RIGOL is already aware of our thread - as it was announced on Hack'A'Day and at rcgroups.com - which is frequented by RIGOL people...

Well, you might think so, but not so much.  :(  I.e., Victor, their Head of Service, last stopped by RCGroups a mere 5 months ago.  Saelig is a Rigol dealer, and they stop in every month or two to tell us how great they are.  The new US rep for Rigol has visited once.  So I'm not sure they're getting any info from RCGRoups, though lots of their customers are benefitting.  I agree that HackADay probably got a lot of attention, so perhaps someone from Rigol is monitoring things here now.

Or maybe they've got a mole here watching (not posting) ever since Dave claimed to have caught them "with their pants down", on the overclocking thing.  :D

Quote
I was aware of this thread (see my first sentence above  ;) ), but that's only part of the story - we need to know which signal on the 40-pin header is what.

Ah, my apologies, Jim.  I though you were having trouble locating it.  But I wouldn't think you'd care what was on the 40-pin side of the Logic Head.  Those are just grounds and flying leads to the signal clip-ons.  They're pretty straight-forward, and Alison already documented those here (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=663958&page=2#post9086484).

Things are more complicated on the 68-pin SCSI side, which carries the differential signals.  I'd think that's what would be of interest to you.

- Mark
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: JimBeam on March 16, 2010, 06:57:46 am
Things are more complicated on the 68-pin SCSI side, which carries the differential signals.  I'd think that's what would be of interest to you.
You're absolutely right!  :D
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Mark_O on March 16, 2010, 07:07:18 am
You're absolutely right!  :D

Ah, in that case, I have no quick answer ready for you.  Sorry.  If I come up with something, I'll let you know here.

- Mark
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on March 16, 2010, 07:37:38 am
well they are still making a profit, infact I can't really see why they bothered doing what they did, as usual economics has gotten in the way...

These comments, as well as the remainder of your ranting is complete rubbish.  You have no clue what you're talking about.  Sorry, Simon.  Just because you "can't see why", doesn't mean that there isn't a very sound reason why.  If it weren't for the ability to offer a range of products at differing price-points, many products wouldn't exist at all.  Lots of manufacturers do it every day.  And thank goodness for all of us.

When Rigol had their previous C-series out, do you actually think they built 4-DIFFERENT models, with different logic circuits, PCBs, and layouts for the 25 MHz, 40, 60 and 100 MHz units?  Nonsense.  They designed and built a single unit, with some mechanism for setting its capabilities (internal jumpers, whatever).  In this case, they're doing it with software, and left a rather large door open.  Not the smartest thing in the world to do, considering who they're selling to (economy-minded EE's and hobbyists).

Do you think that when Tek or Agilent or LeCroy or whoever make a _range_ of instruments available, they go through and put different quality components on each model, to justify the pricing differentials?  If so, you are sadly mistaken.  In this case, you're *itching about a $200 difference on 2 Rigol models.  In those other cases, we're talking about $thousands.  Of course, there they are a lot more clever about it.  ;)

- Mark


yea they develooped one product and made two out of it simple I said that at the end of my post. I just don't like waste thats all. for a little bit more but not quite as much as the 100 MHz version I would have bought it anyhow, the trick they pulled has only bought them a little time. now countless DS1052e users are going to covert their cheaply bought scopes to DS1102E scopes with very little effort, I'm not versed in the methods used to do this but it sounds like it is simple for many people and rigol have lost possibly money over it but then yea people would not have bought one at all were it not for the 1052 so I suppose it's 6 of one and a half dozen of the other.

Oh and chances are they do already know it has been hacked, I'm sure they have been quivering since the notion was brought up that the 1052 and 1102 are so similar that they must be the same unit with something done to the 1052 to keep it under restraint. They will probably start working on new firmware that will anull the mod like changing the location of the information.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Mark_O on March 16, 2010, 07:48:33 am
Here is picture about RigolDS1102E and DS1052Et.

Sorry pictures quality is not good because fast snapshot...

Plenty good enough!  These are an excellent confirmation.  Thanks!  The two units are now like 2 peas in a pod, as the saying goes.  ;)

Quote
Both Rigol get same signal from HP8161A with double output.
(outputs are not exactly same but well enough for this purpose)

You could have swapped the two output leads from the generator, to see if the deviation followed (i.e., signal induced), but I agree that the diff is so small, it's not very important.

Quote
Signal risetime is <1,3ns

I'm guessing quite a bit less.  If the source signal were actually contributing that much to the total risetime readout, it would imply that the actual bandwidth of (both) the Rigol's was approaching 200 MHz (~1.8 nS risetimes).

Quote
As you can see in pictures, 1052 and 1102 have now same risetime (and simple it means also very much same BW).  Later I will test with 70ps pulse and try look more deep.

You've done a great job here.  I'm not going to comment on every point, but just say "thanks".  I'll be interested in hearing your findings on triggering.

Quote
I personally hope that peoples do NOT make big noise about this... specially in many different internet stores "review" articles.  Rigol is not stupid (world #2 in scopes)... and maybe they make some not so nice things... and it means money.

I agree completely.  I can foresee a new firmware update shutting this capability down.  :(

- Mark
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Mark_O on March 16, 2010, 08:03:11 am
yea they develooped one product and made two out of it simple I said that at the end of my post. I just don't like waste thats all.

Well, I'll cut you some slack, but ask, "where's the waste?".  By building a single product, and making it easily adaptable to multiple price points, and multiple customer-bases, that's the height of efficiency.  They can then sell to a much wider range of consumers than would otherwise be possible... at any single fixed price-point.

Quote
the trick they pulled has only bought them a little time.

The "trick" is no different than any of their competitors.  They just implemented it more clumsily.

Quote
now countless DS1052e users are going to covert their cheaply bought scopes to DS1102E scopes with very little effort

I won't argue with you there.

Quote
Oh and chances are they do already know it has been hacked, I'm sure they have been quivering since the notion was brought up that the 1052 and 1102 are so similar that they must be the same unit with something done to the 1052 to keep it under restraint.

You may be right.  It does seem like an odd coincidence for the firmwares to be taken down from their website at just this point in time.

Quote
They will probably start working on new firmware that will anull the mod like changing the location of the information.

No doubt about that.  Once they're aware of it, they WILL respond to lock it down.  The only question is, how soon?

- Mark
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: bushing on March 16, 2010, 08:35:16 am
Do you think that when Tek or Agilent or LeCroy or whoever make a _range_ of instruments available, they go through and put different quality components on each model, to justify the pricing differentials?  If so, you are sadly mistaken.  In this case, you're *itching about a $200 difference on 2 Rigol models.  In those other cases, we're talking about $thousands.  Of course, there they are a lot more clever about it.  ;)
... snip ...
Oh and chances are they do already know it has been hacked, I'm sure they have been quivering since the notion was brought up that the 1052 and 1102 are so similar that they must be the same unit with something done to the 1052 to keep it under restraint. They will probably start working on new firmware that will anull the mod like changing the location of the information.

I look at it a little bit differently.

As far as the economics -- this is a bit like like microprocessors, where (e.g.) Intel will make one batch of chips and sell them at three different speed grades, depending on how they test.  This has a couple of benefits for Intel:

Now, of course, sometimes their product is better than average, but they need to keep their inventory of each chip constant -- so sometimes they will take mid-grade chips and sell them as low-grade.   Some small percentage of the people who buy the low-end chips will overclock them and discover that they got better chips than what they paid for -- but as long as that doesn't really impact overall sales, Intel's not going to care too much (especially when a few of the overclockers will end up burning up their chips and have to buy new ones).

The same thing is true for Rigol -- perhaps even more so, given that they're apparently overclocking a few different parts in these scopes.   I would imagine that when they assemble the units, some of them perform better than others -- some probably get scrapped (or more likely, they put new chips on them), some get put in the 50MHz bin, some in the 100MHz bin.   Maybe most of them work at 100MHz, but they have a way to sell the glitchier ones and still make a bit of money.   If nothing else, you're paying extra for the guarantee that it will operate properly at 100MHz.

So, you reprogram your scope, you take your chances.  Unless Rigol sees their sales drop considerably, I doubt we'll see them do much -- they need to use the current interface for programming the scopes in the factory (or else it wouldn't be there).  They could take the interface out somehow, but that's a fair bit of effort -- and the number of people who actually even try to do this is probably pretty small compared to the number of scopes they sell every day.

(That, and their options are fairly limited.  There's no downgrade protection and no code signing on the firmware... it'd take a lot of effort to lock it down at this point.)
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rf-loop on March 16, 2010, 09:04:40 am
Mark_O

some comments.

HP pulse generator output is 1,3ns risetime or less. (in output connector)
(after this I have 2m Suhner RG223/U and some cheap quality T where is HP 50ohm terminator (medium quality, not high-end calibrator quality).
I do not know risetime in the oscilloscope input connector! (also Rigol input capasitance is quite high, around 15pF)

We can not calculate this 1,8ns risetime becouse bandwith curve is what it is. Rise is not line, it is curve and curve shape depends many things. I think real comparable risetime in Rigol is around 2,5 - 2,9ns but of course there are also more fast components. It is measured at  around 10 and 90% points as Rigol seems to do. In this point we need remember BW shape.  (and it also depends what is mV/div setting, I use now 50mV/div). Also I have not seen exactly specifications about Rigol "risetime" measurements.

Yes also of course I swap HP outputs. Not big differencies! (this difference in pulse level is not from scope. It is from HP littlebit uncalibrated levels in HP outputs, there are some small difference between channels. (but this we can forget becouse overall accuracy in these test is not so high)

I also look both scopes with Marconi (Aeroflex) 2041.



First I adjust 10kHz level so that 1102 show 300mVp-p (variations becouse noise etc 298-300)
Next I check 1052 with exactly same adjustments. It show 300mVp-p but variable between 300-302)

now... 200MHz (same level as qood as this signal source give, and now I use exactly same cable and same terminator and T for avoid any variations in terminator, T and cable so I use just same and NOT drive scopes parallel with 2 cable... never do this without high-end (and very expensive) splitter. Also good measurement need still do different way... it need calibrated precision terminator, calibrated precision power meter and high end splitter in the scope end of cable.)
But for hobby use accuracy this my measurement is enough accurate for this purpose now. It simpy  show that with these unique scopes modify works extremely well.

Both Equ time mode and average 8, dspl points,  and only one channel use (CH1) and 50mV/div

1052Emod
10kHz ~301mVp-p  ;  200MHz ~190mVp-p


1102E
10kHz ~299mVp-p  ;  200MHz ~174mVp-p

With these unique scopes it looks like BW is littlebit better in 1152Emod
(but remember I have not test frequency response curve shape. Only with these point frequencies. (yes I have fast look with hand sweep and I can not see any big differencies over band. )

note: I use p-p measurement but more important is that both scope get same signalsource with same adjustments. Values are not absolute but comparable between each others.

Later I look risetime also with Tektronix 284 70ps risetime pulser.


Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rf-loop on March 16, 2010, 09:18:51 am
One warning...

If some day modified scope fails... (I do not mean modify itself is reason for fail)

and if you can not restore original type and serial. (example scope do not start at all)

Then you send it to repair becouse it have 3 year warranty.

You can quess what happend IF they find wrong serial and type...
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: jone on March 16, 2010, 09:21:25 am
Hmm, I think I'm close - but it's not quite working for me yet..

Changing the serial number from DS1EDxx to DS1EBxx seems to have worked fine, and persists across restarts.

But the model always reverts to DS1052E on restart, any clues what I might be doing wrong?

Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: JimBeam on March 16, 2010, 10:16:35 am
Hmm, I think I'm close - but it's not quite working for me yet..

Changing the serial number from DS1EDxx to DS1EBxx seems to have worked fine, and persists across restarts.

But the model always reverts to DS1052E on restart, any clues what I might be doing wrong?

Thanks in advance!
Yupp, that's because I cursed any other scope on earth to be immune to the change  8) !

No, seriously - no idea, maybe there's more to it than changing the "first name" of the serial number. I was astonished from the beginning, that nobody had ever tried to change modelnumber and serialnumber before - since the docs about the "secret commands" are already dangling around a while. Perhaps all the fuzz about RIGOL losing money is obsolete, if this "patch" only works by chance...

Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Mark_O on March 16, 2010, 10:35:12 am
rf-loop,

thanks for all the additional information, and all the testing you've been doing.  Those 200 MHz results are quite impressive.

Also I have not seen exactly specifications about Rigol "risetime" measurements.

The specs in the back of their models indicate 7 nS risetimes for their 50 MHz units, and 3.5 nS for their 100 MHz models.  These are standard industry values.

Quote
(but remember I have not test frequency response curve shape. Only with these point frequencies. (yes I have fast look with hand sweep and I can not see any big differencies over band. )

Yes, I understand that, and it's a point worth remembering.  Unless you have a sweep generator, it's hard to examine the entire bandwidth.

- Mark
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rf-loop on March 16, 2010, 10:41:04 am
yes, first also I have problem... after restart it is agen 1052... then I try some.....

"maybe" serial numbers... ;)

"maybe" 1102 can not be what ever serial number after ..EB..

......also maybe it is meaning what is scope state (run/stop) as you do it and also... maybe need not soft reset or need... before shut off... ;)  (really I have not test all variations)

After mod need also do selfcal.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: flolic on March 16, 2010, 10:42:01 am
I'm not seeing anything that looks remotely like a model number or serial number.  This was from a DS1052E -- anyone else care to do the same so we can compare?

I can do it, but only if you tel me how. Can I dump EEPROM content without desoldering the chip (btw desoldering is not a problem  ;) )?
I have 1102E.
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Mark_O on March 16, 2010, 10:42:10 am
Changing the serial number from DS1EDxx to DS1EBxx seems to have worked fine, and persists across restarts.

But the model always reverts to DS1052E on restart, any clues what I might be doing wrong?

Which one did you change first?  I.e., writing the SN may force an update of non-volatile memory, while the Model does not.  If Andreas changed his Model first, then the SN; and you did things in the opposite order, that could explain it.

- Mark
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: rf-loop on March 16, 2010, 11:03:00 am
rf-loop,

thanks for all the additional information, and all the testing you've been doing.  Those 200 MHz results are quite impressive.

Also I have not seen exactly specifications about Rigol "risetime" measurements.

The specs in the back of their models indicate 7 nS risetimes for their 50 MHz units, and 3.5 nS for their 100 MHz models.  These are standard industry values.

Quote
(but remember I have not test frequency response curve shape. Only with these point frequencies. (yes I have fast look with hand sweep and I can not see any big differencies over band. )

Yes, I understand that, and it's a point worth remembering.  Unless you have a sweep generator, it's hard to examine the entire bandwidth.

- Mark


Yes 3,5 and 7ns are "normal". (this have old history where come this 0,35)

I mean that I do not know how exactly Rigol oscilloscope measure risetime. There is no data in specifications. What values are take for 10 and 90% points. (highest value or some value after shoots as I have see some scopes do)
(this question can make specially after drive sine to scope and use scope automatic measurement. In some cases it show totally fast risetimes specially with high frequencies. So this is clear that scope do not use p-p points for 10 and 90% points for calculate risetime.

Most good accuracy can get without sweep gen. But it is hard work...

With sweep gen with digital oscilloscope is very easy go to garbage...

And also it is impossible to sweep whole band at once... (with analog scope situation is littlebit different)
How can read exactly values in separate freq points. My opinion is that only road for accurate testing is do it with measuring single freq points.

Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Mark_O on March 16, 2010, 11:22:55 am
I mean that I do not know how exactly Rigol oscilloscope measure risetime. There is no data in specifications. What values are take for 10 and 90% points. (highest value or some value after shoots as I have see some scopes do)

Ah, yes. I see what you mean now.  10% and 90% of which data points.  Thanks for the clarification.

- Mark
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: jone on March 16, 2010, 12:04:10 pm
Which one did you change first?  I.e., writing the SN may force an update of non-volatile memory, while the Model does not.  If Andreas changed his Model first, then the SN; and you did things in the opposite order, that could explain it.

- Mark

Good point - I changed serial number first, then model. Will try the other way round after work...
Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
Post by: Simon on March 16, 2010, 12:34:36 pm



I look at it a little bit differently.

As far as the economics -- this is a bit like like microprocessors, where (e.g.) Intel will make one batch of chips and sell them at three different speed grades, depending on how they test.  This has a couple of benefits for Intel:
    what you forget is that intel set out to get fast chips and through the nature of the process get some that won't perform so run them slower and make them still usable, this is clever and good as it lowers the price all round and is less waste, what rigol did was make a 100 MHz scope and then sell a load with a limitation that was artificially imposed. of course there were valid reasons i suppose.

    the 2 rigol scopes have the same sample rate, even the 1052 is overclockedelse it would be a 20 MHz scope[/list]
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 16, 2010, 12:45:34 pm
    is all this being done with software provided on the original cd ?

    from the commands manual I downloaded do I correctly understand that the whole scope can be command line controlled froma pc as it would from it's own control panel ? and of course for doing things like this
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: jone on March 16, 2010, 01:03:40 pm
    is all this being done with software provided on the original cd ?

    from the commands manual I downloaded do I correctly understand that the whole scope can be command line controlled froma pc as it would from it's own control panel ? and of course for doing things like this

    Not sure that there are actual apps on the CD, but there are some programming examples in the PDF which show you how to use the required libraries (I think these were on the CD, else they're on the rigol site).

    I used a Linux machine, which has support for USBTMC (USB Test and Measurement Class) in the kernel. As soon as the scope is connected, it appears as a character device which you can read from and write to.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: drieg on March 16, 2010, 01:26:09 pm
    I was astonished from the beginning, that nobody had ever tried to change modelnumber and serialnumber before - since the docs about the "secret commands" are already dangling around a while. Perhaps all the fuzz about RIGOL losing money is obsolete, if this "patch" only works by chance...

    Nobody published doesn't mean nobody tried... ;)

    As for the LA module - yes, it's also possible to turn DS1000E into DS1000D but you have to build not only external, but also internal LA module with ALTERA FPGA and ISSI SRAM...
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: JimBeam on March 16, 2010, 03:03:00 pm
    As for the LA module - yes, it's also possible to turn DS1000E into DS1000D but you have to build not only external, but also internal LA module with ALTERA FPGA and ISSI SRAM...
    Ah, this is what I wanted to know! Someone once wrote, that the 40 pin header near the front of the PCB would go directly to the "SCSI" connector on the front bezel - which I doubted, and unfortunately was right... OK, so the 1xxxE -> 1xxxD "modding" is buried for me, as I already own an Intronix Logicport LA (nice part btw.!), it would just have been a nice addition to i.e. have more trigger channels.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 16, 2010, 05:28:58 pm
    is all this being done with software provided on the original cd ?

    from the commands manual I downloaded do I correctly understand that the whole scope can be command line controlled froma pc as it would from it's own control panel ? and of course for doing things like this

    Not sure that there are actual apps on the CD, but there are some programming examples in the PDF which show you how to use the required libraries (I think these were on the CD, else they're on the rigol site).

    I used a Linux machine, which has support for USBTMC (USB Test and Measurement Class) in the kernel. As soon as the scope is connected, it appears as a character device which you can read from and write to.

    yes I think there are just examples available on the CD no actual software. what is the easiest software to use ?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: jone on March 16, 2010, 07:15:30 pm
    yes I think there are just examples available on the CD no actual software. what is the easiest software to use ?

    I just used a linux machine, and simply echoed the commands to the device port. So that would get my vote for easiest!  ;)

    I guess for building the example software under windows, whatever you're most comfortable with (I think there were examples for VB and VC).
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 16, 2010, 07:19:42 pm
    hm I could set up ubuntu on an old machine running off a live cd, but then I'll still have to find out how I "talk" to the rigol
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: mxmxmx on March 16, 2010, 07:28:27 pm
    yes I think there are just examples available on the CD no actual software. what is the easiest software to use ?

    I use Agilent's IO Libraries instead of NI Visa. There is a tool included in the Agilent IO Libraries that allows you to send raw commands to your devices, including the Rigol scope.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: mxmxmx on March 16, 2010, 07:37:28 pm
    Congratulations to the person who suggested that changing the model and serial number actually does convert the scope into a 100 MHz model. It really works! When I found and documented the previously undocumented commands to set those numbers, I would never have thought that it would be so easy to upgrade the scope.

    PS: For those of you who say "seeing is believing", I uploaded two screenshots:

    100 MHz signal, DS1052E, default setting
    (http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/7310/newfile0.png)

    Same signal, same scope, modded to 100 MHz bandwidth
    (http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/3029/newfile3.png)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rossmoffett on March 17, 2010, 06:07:54 am
    Congratulations to the person who suggested that changing the model and serial number actually does convert the scope into a 100 MHz model. It really works! When I found and documented the previously undocumented commands to set those numbers, I would never have thought that it would be so easy to upgrade the scope.

    I just assumed you had already tried it, and never made the attempt!

    Good on you guys for trying and testing it, guess I'll be soldering my caps back in soon as I get back to Oklahoma.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 17, 2010, 06:25:26 am
    so does this mean that the hardware mod you made is now obsolete ?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 17, 2010, 07:15:57 am
    is all this being done with software provided on the original cd ?

    That is one way, though there are simpler.

    Quote
    from the commands manual I downloaded do I correctly understand that the whole scope can be command line controlled from a pc as it would from it's own control panel ? and of course for doing things like this

    Yes, that is correct.  I think you're still making this out to be far more difficult than it needs to be, thinking you need to "program" something.  Assuming you have a serial cable, and HyperTerminal on your PC (comes standard on all WinBoxes), just download these instructions (http://www.rigol.com/upload/accessory/20102/2010221051162027445.pdf) on how to use HyperTerminal to send text commands back and forth to your Rigol.  No special software required... just a simple terminal emulator.  And all the required settings you'll need to use it (setting baudrate, etc.) are described in the Rigol manual referenced.

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: flolic on March 17, 2010, 07:32:11 am

     guess I'll be soldering my caps back in soon as I get back to Oklahoma.

    I will not, because my 1102E has even greater bandwidth without them and I don't need BW limit function  ;D

    These are shots of 74F08 gate output, i have to find IC with faster rise/fall times:
    (EQU sample rate, 4x averaged, 50 ohm terminated resistive input probe)

    CH1, with caps removed
    (http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/5293/newfile2.jpg)

    CH2, unmodified
    (http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/5889/newfile4.jpg)

    Differences are minimal but still visible.
    Btw. I still think there is a room for (hardware) improvement...
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 17, 2010, 07:41:43 am
    is all this being done with software provided on the original cd ?

    That is one way, though there are simpler.

    Quote
    from the commands manual I downloaded do I correctly understand that the whole scope can be command line controlled from a pc as it would from it's own control panel ? and of course for doing things like this

    Yes, that is correct.  I think you're still making this out to be far more difficult than it needs to be, thinking you need to "program" something.  Assuming you have a serial cable, and HyperTerminal on your PC (comes standard on all WinBoxes), just download these instructions (http://www.rigol.com/upload/accessory/20102/2010221051162027445.pdf) on how to use HyperTerminal to send text commands back and forth to your Rigol.  No special software required... just a simple terminal emulator.  And all the required settings you'll need to use it (setting baudrate, etc.) are described in the Rigol manual referenced.

    - Mark


    Hi mark, yes I have understood for a while now that it is not a reprogramming thing required but simply talking to the scope via a command line and I'm familiar with dos so won't be too hard when I get the app up and running and have some time to take a peak. would you reccomend modding the hardware too ?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 17, 2010, 07:52:11 am
    As for the LA module - yes, it's also possible to turn DS1000E into DS1000D but you have to build not only external, but also internal LA module with ALTERA FPGA and ISSI SRAM...

    Drieg, thanks very much for this!  So the LA functions require an extra daughter-card, which duplicate some of the scope functionality with a parallel Cyclone and 1Meg RAM buffer.  The card apparently has a connector on the bottom that mates with the 40-pin header on the PCB, a standoff supports the other end of the card, and the 68-line cable from the front SCSI connector runs to a connector on the daughter-card.  Makes sense.

    One thing I was never able to figure out is if all it took for the LA was a ribbon cable going from 68-pins on the front to 40-pins on the PCB, where was the extra Meg of RAM for the 16 logic channels coming from?  The 2 analog channels already were using the full Meg of onboard RAM in LongMemory mode, and the LA can be used in conjunction with that, for full 18 channel captures.  That resolves that mystery.

    One final question... where does the Reference Memory come from?  I've copied up to a Meg into there at times.

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 17, 2010, 07:59:14 am
    would you reccomend modding the hardware too ?

    Would I?  Just my personal opinion, but no, I wouldn't.  A lot of effort, and potentially some risk, for minimal extra gain.  While I understand and respect flolic's rationale, and have no argument with it whatsoever, there are times when I actually do want to bandwidth limit the input signal, to clean up HF noise that can interfere with the signal I'm trying to see.  I'd prefer not to throw that capability away.  YMMV.

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 17, 2010, 08:00:17 am
    Mark those instructions seem to relate to the RS232 connector, will it all work with USB as well by choosing different ports ? can't wait to hook the scope up and start playing.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 17, 2010, 08:01:05 am
    Mark those instructions seem to relate to the RS232 connector, will it all work with USB as well by choosing different ports ? can't wait to hook the scope up and start playing.

    yea i think I'd agree there
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: JimBeam on March 17, 2010, 08:04:10 am
    One final question... where does the Reference Memory come from?  I've copied up to a Meg into there at times.
    Maybe the second half of the flash?

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 17, 2010, 08:11:41 am
    Mark those instructions seem to relate to the RS232 connector,

    Yes, that is correct.  I thought that using serial (RS232) might be a lot simpler for you, since it already provides a straightforward, line-oriented interface.  And no special software is needed, beyond any terminal emulator.  So less to have to worry about.

    Quote
    will it all work with USB as well by choosing different ports?

    Umm, no.  USB is a fairly generalized mechanism, that allows for packet-level data exchanges.  When you plug a Rigol in via USB, it won't just show up as another serial port.  That's why you need both an interface driver (DLL) to talk to it (on the USB side); and an Application of some kind, to send your command lines to and from the driver.  While in the end, they both wind up doing exactly the same thing, RS232 is a lot easier (and USB is a lot faster).  We're lucky that Rigol provides both.  (And as standard, not-extra cost options, like some other vendors.)

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: drieg on March 17, 2010, 08:52:49 am
    One final question... where does the Reference Memory come from?  I've copied up to a Meg into there at times.
    Maybe the second half of the flash?
    "Reference Waveforms are saved waveforms to be selected for display. The reference function will be available after saving the selected waveform to non-volatile memory."
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 17, 2010, 09:44:14 am
    One final question... where does the Reference Memory come from?  I've copied up to a Meg into there at times.
    Maybe the second half of the flash?
    "Reference Waveforms are saved waveforms to be selected for display. The reference function will be available after saving the selected waveform to non-volatile memory."

    Thanks, Andreas and Drieg.  I missed that reference in the manual, but that's obviously where it's located.  A Meg for the analog, a Meg for the LA, and an independent Meg for the Reference waveform.  Nice.

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: dimlow on March 17, 2010, 12:25:06 pm
    Guys, just did the 'UPGRADE' on my scope with a serial cable and hyper terminal, works a treat, thanks!
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Dynomo on March 17, 2010, 04:18:40 pm
    Modded mine to with serial cable and hyper terminal . Did some testing with 106 mhz signal on the scope and the mods working great here. Nice one  ;D
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: tristan on March 17, 2010, 06:09:24 pm
    Hi Guys

    I just performed this operation on my scope too and have had good results. However I did have a slightly worrying few minutes.

    I changed the S/N and the model as described here but the unit would revert to the DS1052E after a reboot. After trying 3/4 times I went into the utility/system info display and it was corrupted - the top half of the screen showed only random graphics. I didn't take a photo unfortunately. This also locked the scope up requiring a reboot to return to operation. Returning to the system info screen locked the unit up again.

    After rebooting I was able to connect to the serial port and check the settings - this was the response:
    Code: [Select]
    *IDN?
         Rigol Technologies,•–•–––––––•••–••••–––••––––––––•–––••––•–••—–––––•––•–––
    –––•••–—••–•–•––•–•–••—•––•––•–•–••–•––•–•–•––––•––––•––•–•–––—••–•–––••,••–•–
    •––•–•–••—•––•––•–•–••–•––•–•–•––––•––––•––•–•–––—••–•–––••,00.02.02.02.00

    I reset the model and serial number again and it cured the problem and now persists through power cycles.

    Tristan
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rossmoffett on March 17, 2010, 06:44:51 pm

     guess I'll be soldering my caps back in soon as I get back to Oklahoma.

    I will not, because my 1102E has even greater bandwidth without them and I don't need BW limit function  ;D


    Those are really great illustrations, given that, maybe I'll leave mine alone too!  I'm sick of taking the thing apart, for sure.

    So far as there still being room for hardware improvement, that I'm not sure about.  According to an earlier post here, the real -3dB bandwidth is about 160 MHz on the DS1102E, and according to Dave, 1/10 of sampling rate is about the best a real-time readout can do.  That means that boosting the analog bandwidth more is only going to reduce the equivalent-time sampling noise, I think.  Your posted image has me wondering though, how far it could be pushed before it's really untrustworthy.  We have 400 MS/s 100 MHz model C Rigol scopes at school, and I know that they pale in comparison to the DS1052E.  The low sample rate makes it look like all noise anywhere over 50 MHz or so.  That makes me thing that probably this scope will do the same as it approaches 200 Mhz.

    I'm extremely pleased as it is!
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on March 17, 2010, 08:06:19 pm
    ADC clock phasenoise and jitter can be better. (maybe not impossible)

    Analog channel after BNC to ADC can be better. (less noise and BW flatness better)

    Both scopes 1102 and original or (commandmod) 1052 suffer BW flatness problem. Not so bad but.. >1.7dB @ 100MHz (1052Emod and 1102E original) is not good. Also same or more bad but different frequency in 1052Eorig. It is maybe still acceptable in this priceclass. But nobody can not tell that it is good today. It is better if it is more flat, after 100 or more it can drop more fast. Now it continues nearly "endless". I can find components after digitzing even over 500MHz. Some may be ..oh nice... but I think it is more bad. (these over Nyquist frequencies are not allways good to see in digital oscilloscopes, they make many bad effects in my opinion. These scopes need more flatness and then better BW limiting after some reasonable freq.

    But if we think these rigol prices and not want hobby class "High-End" (professional High-End is totally other case)... after commandmod 1052 looks like lot lot of value for money ... unbelievable exellent for many purposes.

    Now we can wait what Rigol do.
    In China this mod case have make some discussions.

    I wait this day come soon we can see DS1102E's ... not original factory made...
    It is unbelievable cheap to make lot of labels to front and back... some RMB and you have lot of.
    How peoples can know that they have buy original Rigol made 1102E  ;)
    Maybe we can think what they think in Rigol.... what is in next FW update...this is only quessing. ;)

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 17, 2010, 10:26:46 pm
    I'm sure rigol will find a workaround in the new firmware. it's only those of us with early 1052's that are blessed with this ability to mod. later scopes will be jamed for sure
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: flolic on March 18, 2010, 12:15:33 am
    Ok, new day for a new test   ;D
    I made sub nanosecond avalanche-mode pulse generator as described here:  http://www.i9t.net/fast-pulse/fast-pulse.html
    I cheated a little and used 2N708 instead 2N2369 which I didn't have. Good thing is that it works  ;D , bad thing is that I don't know exact
    pulse rise/fall time.

    Anyway, let's see the pictures  ;)

    These are with high bandwidth resistive 50 ohm terminated probe. You can see excessive ringing, this is most likely because of bad termination (I used old & cheap 10Base2 ethernet T-BNC and terminator)

    CH2 unmodified:
    (http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/4572/img2649k.jpg)

    CH1 modified:
    (http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/9808/img2650q.jpg)




    Next two pictures are with original 150MHz probes:

    CH2 unmodified:
    (http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/9507/img2646ro.jpg)

    CH1 modified:
    (http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/7180/img2647m.jpg)


    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: dimlow on March 18, 2010, 01:07:22 am
    So were is Dave ? he should see this
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 18, 2010, 02:09:07 am
    We have 400 MS/s 100 MHz model C Rigol scopes at school, and I know that they pale in comparison to the DS1052E.  

    Hi, Ross.  I'm a bit surprised to hear you say that, because I had thought they were pretty close, performance-wise.  The specs certainly aren't all that different.

    Quote
    The low sample rate makes it look like all noise anywhere over 50 MHz or so.

    But now you've lost me.  The maximum (real-time) sample rates on the 1000C are 200 MSa/400 MSa, for 2 and 1 channel respectively.  The sample rates on the 1000E are 250 MSa/500 MSa under the same conditions.  The oft-quoted 1 GSa/sec sampling rate is limited to single-channel operation, capturing into the smaller ShortMemory only.  That's because there's not enough channel bandwidth to transfer acquistions at 1 GSa into the larger ISSI memory.  ShortMemory is retained internal to one of the VLSI chips, possibly the Cyclone, though probably the BlackFin, since that's where all the processing is done.  I'm sure someone here would know for certain.

    So you're saying that a 20% slower (maximum) sampling rate makes a huge difference in performance on the 1000C scopes?

    - Mark

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 18, 2010, 03:51:51 am
    rf-loop wrote:
    > It is better if it is more flat, after 100 or more it can drop more fast. Now it continues nearly "endless". I can find components after digitzing even over 500MHz. Some may be ..oh nice... but I think it is more bad. <

    I agree with your assessment, but can see why some would like the ability to detect higher-frequency components, and think it was a good thing (More is always Better, right?).

    > these over Nyquist frequencies are not allways good to see in digital oscilloscopes, they make many bad effects in my opinion. These scopes need more flatness and then better BW limiting after some reasonable freq. <

    And there's the rub.  Without proper BW limiting, after digital sampling you wind up with foldover into the desired passband.  AKA, aliasing.  These alias-imaged components can create some real anomalies, both in measurements, and in interpreting waveshapes.  You go, "Hmm, where did that frequency bump/spike come from?"  And the answer is that it was a phantom.  Chasing phantoms is not a productive use of engineering time, IMO.

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 18, 2010, 04:01:35 am
    ...according to Dave, 1/10 of sampling rate is about the best a real-time readout can do.

    I'm surprised to hear that Dave made that claim.  Especially since it's not true.  You don't need 10-times oversampling to be able to accurately reconstruct a waveshape.  Assuming a gaussian-distribution (the normal case), you can exactly reconstruct any arbitrary waveform, using sin(x)/x with as little as 2.5x oversampling of the highest frequency component.  However, to accomplish that requires very good filters (i.e., expensive), and with the quality of filtering on most consumer-grade instruments, you actually need ~4x oversampling to achieve the same results.  (To get technical, it varies, depending on the instrument, from 3-5x... but 4x is a good rule-of-thumb.)

    But 10x is really overkill.  Thus even the 400MSa on the earlier 100MHz 1000C-series was perfectly fine.  Based on your claim, they'd only be good to 40 MHz (and the 100 MHz-version of the 1000E would top out at 50 MHz).

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 18, 2010, 04:06:50 am
    So were is Dave ? he should see this

    I'm pretty sure he is/has been seeing this.  The question is why he doesn't participate?  Most likely because he's busy working on his next Video Blog.  ;)

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 18, 2010, 04:31:17 am
    These are with high bandwidth resistive 50 ohm terminated probe. You can see excessive ringing, this is most likely because of bad termination (I used old & cheap 10Base2 ethernet T-BNC and terminator)

    F.Lolic, your undamped ringing is at 200 MHz, which is the resonant frequency of your cabling setup.  Someone here (and my apologies for not going back to give proper credit), has already pointed out that terminating your probes with 50-ohms externally, is not equivalent to using a scope with proper 50-ohm internal terminations.  The reason is that internally, the Rigol scopes still have 1Meg-ohm || ~15 pF.  Unless you remove that capacitance, that internal value will set an upper limit on what you can achieve on the high end.  

    Which is why expensive scopes have relays or other switching elements to physically remove them from the circuit, in 50-ohm mode.  At the same time, they also dramatically reduce the ability of the front-end to handle high voltages!  ~400V drops to around 5V or so.  If you're a newbie (which lots of Rigol owners wold be), it would be posible to fry your front-end just by accidentally switching from the 1M to 50-ohm setting.  (And yes, I know it's possible to add protective circuitry to clamp the inputs, but that adds cost and complexity, as well as increasing residual/parasitic elements you don't want to have at the front-end of a sensitive instrument.)

    - Mark

    P.S.  BTW, I wanted to say "thanks" for those exceptional detailed photos you did of the Rigol internals.  The combined panoramic shots were phenominally good, and extremely well lit.  Really amazing.  Thanks!
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 18, 2010, 04:43:06 am
    Someone here (and my apologies for not going back to give proper credit), has already pointed out that terminating your probes with 50-ohms externally, is not equivalent to using a scope with proper 50-ohm internal terminations.  The reason is that internally, the Rigol scopes still have 1Meg-ohm || ~15 pF.

    It was David, aka Tesla500, in another thread.  

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rossmoffett on March 18, 2010, 05:11:50 am
    Quote
    The low sample rate makes it look like all noise anywhere over 50 MHz or so.

    But now you've lost me.  The maximum (real-time) sample rates on the 1000C are 200 MSa/400 MSa, for 2 and 1 channel respectively.  The sample rates on the 1000E are 250 MSa/500 MSa under the same conditions.  The oft-quoted 1 GSa/sec sampling rate is limited to single-channel operation, capturing into the smaller ShortMemory only.  That's because there's not enough channel bandwidth to transfer acquistions at 1 GSa into the larger ISSI memory.  ShortMemory is retained internal to one of the VLSI chips, possibly the Cyclone, though probably the BlackFin, since that's where all the processing is done.  I'm sure someone here would know for certain.

    So you're saying that a 20% slower (maximum) sampling rate makes a huge difference in performance on the 1000C scopes?

    - Mark



    You're saying it's 20% slower maximum, but that's actually the minimum.  The maximum would be 600 MS/s slower with both scopes in single channel operation, and 300 MS/s with both scopes in dual channel operation.  That's 50% and 50% maximum difference.  The minimum difference would be 20% with the DS1052E in dual-channel operation and the C model in single channel operation.. I do say this makes a huge difference in performance, I operated them side by side to test my modifications and the noise in the C model made the readings far worse than even my 50 MHz unmodified channel.

    ...according to Dave, 1/10 of sampling rate is about the best a real-time readout can do.

    I'm surprised to hear that Dave made that claim.  Especially since it's not true.  ...


    It is true.  I said "real-time" and you're talking about equivalent-time sampling.

    Thanks for all of your posts at the RC forum Mark, the amount of information in the Rigol post there is overwhelming and if you hadn't mentioned the serial commands being cracked by mxmxmx I would have never seen them!

    Dave has taken a break, he posted a note in the "Announcements" forum saying he's going walkabout for a while.  I'm sure the deluge of e-mails and consistent output of quality video blogs has been taxing his time for a while now!

    For those reading this without the proper serial cable, when I get off of spring break I'll make it a priority to write a simple program to send VISA commands via USB.  I tried to find all of the proper connectors at school one day and just gave up, serial ports are everywhere, but practically antiques now, so it's understandable most people won't have them.

    The really interesting thing here for me is that they can go ahead and change the firmware, but the hardware mod will live on until they re-design the analog section, after which it will still be a trivial matter to modify now that we know what they're up to!  The new schem from Mr. JimBeam illustrates that I can still just remove a single resistor and effectively cancel the 50 MHz bandwidth limit.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 18, 2010, 07:39:12 am
    ...according to Dave, 1/10 of sampling rate is about the best a real-time readout can do.

    I'm surprised to hear that Dave made that claim.  Especially since it's not true.  You don't need 10-times oversampling to be able to accurately reconstruct a waveshape.  Assuming a gaussian-distribution (the normal case), you can exactly reconstruct any arbitrary waveform, using sin(x)/x with as little as 2.5x oversampling.  However, to accomplish that requires very good filters (i.e., expensive), and with the quality of filtering on most consumer-grade instruments, you actually need ~4x oversampling to achieve the same results.  (To get technical, it varies, depending on the instrument, from 3-5x... but 4x is a good rule-of-thumb.)

    But 10x is really overkill.  Thus even the 400MSa on the earlier 100MHz 1000C-series was perfectly fine.  Based on your claim, they'd only be good to 40 MHz (and the 100 MHz-version of the 1000E would top out at 50 MHz).

    - Mark


    Why is that not so, basically he saif that to accurately reconstruct a wavefor with no artificial intervention you need 10 points per cycle, if your then goung to use other methods on top of that then whatever but to get a true view you need 10 samples so that you can join the dots up
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: dimlow on March 18, 2010, 07:57:45 am
    Dave has taken a break, he posted a note in the "Announcements" forum saying he's going walkabout for a while.  I'm sure the deluge of e-mails and consistent output of quality video blogs has been taxing his time for a while now!

    Yea, but that was on the 9th he has posted a new video blog on the 16th so i assumed he was back.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 18, 2010, 09:53:54 am
    You're saying it's 20% slower maximum, but that's actually the minimum.  The maximum would be 600 MS/s slower with both scopes in single channel operation, and 300 MS/s with both scopes in dual channel operation.  That's 50% and 50% maximum difference.  The minimum difference would be 20% with the DS1052E in dual-channel operation and the C model in single channel operation.

    Are you talking about using LongMemory, or not?  It's hard to tell.  Personally, I use ShortMemory so infrequently, I hardly remember it's there.   :)  In ShortMemory mode it's 1000M/500MSa, vs. 400M/200MSa, as you say.  In LongMemory mode, it's 500M/250MSa, vs. 400M/200MSa.  That's what I was referring to.  My apologies if I wasn't clear about that.

    It's possible you still think the 1000E series will do 500MSa in dual-channel mode, even with LongMemory.  That would be understandable, because that's what Rigol published in their Feb'09 manual for those scopes.  However, they corrected themselves in the Jun'09 edition, and show the correct 250MSa max-rate in Long dual-channel mode.  Try it yourself, and see where it maxes out in dual-channel LongMemory mode.

    Quote
    I do say this makes a huge difference in performance, I operated them side by side to test my modifications and the noise in the C model made the readings far worse than even my 50 MHz unmodified channel.

    Yes!, I was very interested in your personal evaluation of the two different models, because I have no E-series unit here to compare my older C-series with.  I wasn't calling your opinion into question at all... just asking because the spec differences are smaller than they initially appear to be.  Thanks for sharing your personal comparisons.

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: alm on March 18, 2010, 10:06:09 am
    I'm surprised to hear that Dave made that claim.  Especially since it's not true.  You don't need 10-times oversampling to be able to accurately reconstruct a waveshape.  Assuming a gaussian-distribution (the normal case), you can exactly reconstruct any arbitrary waveform, using sin(x)/x with as little as 2.5x oversampling.  However, to accomplish that requires very good filters (i.e., expensive), and with the quality of filtering on most consumer-grade instruments, you actually need ~4x oversampling to achieve the same results.  (To get technical, it varies, depending on the instrument, from 3-5x... but 4x is a good rule-of-thumb.)

    But 10x is really overkill.  Thus even the 400MSa on the earlier 100MHz 1000C-series was perfectly fine.  Based on your claim, they'd only be good to 40 MHz (and the 100 MHz-version of the 1000E would top out at 50 MHz).

    One issue with applying the Nyquist-Shannon sampling theory to DSO's is that the theory talks about the total bandwidth of the signal. The bandwidth of an oscilloscope is the -3dB point. The bandwidth in the sampling theory is the highest frequency component. This would require a hard cut-off above 100MHz, as opposed to the Gaussian roll-off that's normal for oscilloscopes. Some of the high-end oscilloscopes, which do oversample less than 10x because they can't make the ADC's and memory fast enough, have a much sharper input filter (there's an Agilent appnote about this). Because your signal may have higher frequency components, you can't treat it like a simple Nyquist reconstruction, so more samples are useful.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 18, 2010, 10:15:50 am
    Ross,

    I just went back and reviewed your original comment...
    > We have 400 MS/s 100 MHz model C Rigol scopes at school... <

    And your more recent:
    > I do say this makes a huge difference in performance, I operated them side by side to test my modifications and the noise in the C model made the readings far worse than even my 50 MHz unmodified channel. <

    You do realize that the residual noise displayed on the 100MHz model-C will always be higher than on your unmodified 50MHz model-E, simply due to the bandwidth differential?  All other things being equal, wider BW scopes will always exhibit higher apparent noise levels.  That's the nature of the beast, and what we have BW limiting, digital filtering options, averaging, and ET sampling for.  To reduce the contribution of noise, and see the signals underneath.

    If the E-series do have less residual noise (which is possible, though the noise-samples Dave posted for his 1052E didn't look significantly different than what I was used to on my 1102CD), it's not a result of higher sampling rates.

    Agilent did a paper on noise in digital scopes a while back, and it was quite illuminating.  Even very expensive scopes can exhibit surprisingly high levels of relative noise, under some circumstances as much as 50% of one vertical division on a peak-to-peak basis!  Turn on infinite Persistence, and things can get pretty ugly.  ;)

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 18, 2010, 10:26:06 am
    One issue with applying the Nyquist-Shannon sampling theory to DSO's is that the theory talks about the total bandwidth of the signal. The bandwidth of an oscilloscope is the -3dB point. The bandwidth in the sampling theory is the highest frequency component. This would require a hard cut-off above 100MHz, as opposed to the Gaussian roll-off that's normal for oscilloscopes. Some of the high-end oscilloscopes, which do oversample less than 10x because they can't make the ADC's and memory fast enough, have a much sharper input filter (there's an Agilent appnote about this). Because your signal may have higher frequency components, you can't treat it like a simple Nyquist reconstruction, so more samples are useful.

    Alm, yes, that's correct.  I think the root cause for the confusion was a misinterpretation of what Dave "said".  I was talking about oversampling on the highest-frequency component of a signal.  What Dave, and Simon, and Ross were referring to was evidently the need to sample 10 times per-cycle.  And Dave's right on that... you need a decent number of samples, even with sin(x)/x reconstruction, to be able to capture the higher-order harmonics of a lower-frequency waveform.  No argument there.

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 18, 2010, 10:40:29 am
    Agilent did a paper on noise in digital scopes a while back, and it was quite illuminating.  Even very expensive scopes can exhibit surprisingly high levels of relative noise, under some circumstances as much as 50% of one vertical division on a peak-to-peak basis!  Turn on infinite Persistence, and things can get pretty ugly.  ;)

    They also did a nice job of dispelling the myth that digital scopes are intrinsically "noiser" than analog scopes.  At first look, it seems obvious that the signals on a digital scope are much noiser, but that's attributable mostly to the difference in acquisition and display methods.  I.e., the higher peak-to-peak noise levels you see on your digital scope are captured and displayed instantaneously.  The exact same signal displayed on an analog scope will show much less noise, simply because of the persistence of the phosphor.

    I.e., the random peak-to-peak fluctuations don't occur with sufficient frequency to continually repaint on the screen... so you don't see them.  What you do see are those parts of the signal that occur over and over again.  Or in other words, the analog scope has built-in automatic averaging.  Turn averaging on with your Rigol (or any DSO), and see how much cleaner things look!  Almost analog-like.  :)  As little as 4x can make a big difference.

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on March 18, 2010, 11:47:48 am
    Mark_O

    "...even with sin(x)/x reconstruction..."

    My opinion is: Rigol have not this function at all. There is some kind of "smooth" function and nothing else.

    Specially this can also see in my some pictures and... I understand they need do also this fake becouse BW is NOT compatible for real or near real Sin(x)/x. 





    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 18, 2010, 12:39:24 pm
    Agilent did a paper on noise in digital scopes a while back, and it was quite illuminating.  Even very expensive scopes can exhibit surprisingly high levels of relative noise, under some circumstances as much as 50% of one vertical division on a peak-to-peak basis!  Turn on infinite Persistence, and things can get pretty ugly.  ;)

    They also did a nice job of dispelling the myth that digital scopes are intrinsically "noiser" than analog scopes.  At first look, it seems obvious that the signals on a digital scope are much noiser, but that's attributable mostly to the difference in acquisition and display methods.  I.e., the higher peak-to-peak noise levels you see on your digital scope are captured and displayed instantaneously.  The exact same signal displayed on an analog scope will show much less noise, simply because of the persistence of the phosphor.

    I.e., the random peak-to-peak fluctuations don't occur with sufficient frequency to continually repaint on the screen... so you don't see them.  What you do see are those parts of the signal that occur over and over again.  Or in other words, the analog scope has built-in automatic averaging.  Turn averaging on with your Rigol (or any DSO), and see how much cleaner things look!  Almost analog-like.  :)  As little as 4x can make a big difference.

    - Mark


    I beg to differ my rigol is noisy and the only way to cure it is use the inernal filtering and hope you don't have to measure in the same band as the noise
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 18, 2010, 01:27:12 pm
    I beg to differ my rigol is noisy and the only way to cure it is use the inernal filtering and hope you don't have to measure in the same band as the noise

    So you're saying you've tried averaging, and it did no good?

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: DJPhil on March 18, 2010, 03:37:47 pm
    For those of you looking for Dave, he's on walkabout for a while (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=287.0).

    I'm sure when he gets back he'll do all his catching up and you'll hear from him. :)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: miki on March 18, 2010, 06:00:34 pm
    I haven't noticed in any of the screenshots whether users that made the DS1052->DS1102 mod are able to achieve 2 ns/div on the horizontal scale?
    What about equivalent sampling, is this also increased from 10 to 25 GSa/s?

    Thanks.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: flolic on March 18, 2010, 06:44:08 pm
    I connected pulse generator directly to the scope and there is no ringing any more  ;D

    (http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/3707/img2653zv.jpg)

    (http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/6910/img2657q.jpg)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: KTP on March 18, 2010, 06:47:14 pm
    I just caught this thread...I purchased a DS1052E four months ago after reading the EEVblog reviews of it.  I knew if I went away for awhile and came back you guys would figure out a way to "upgrade" it.  Bravo!  :D

    So I need to construct a null modem RS232 cable and then type some stuff in hyperterminal?  Sounds too easy.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on March 18, 2010, 06:48:59 pm
    (http://i969.photobucket.com/albums/ae171/Xie_07/pulserespDS1052Ei.jpg)

    Also if horizontal is 2ns/div and mode is egualtime (oka: repetitive) it is 25Gs/s

    So, just as 1102.


    Also of course original 1102 can move to 1052 and it works just as original 1052. (BW limits, 2ns/s // 25Gs/s equ is out. (25Gs equ is only with 2ns/div)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: KTP on March 18, 2010, 08:47:37 pm
    Ok that was too easy. 

    A couple of things.

    It is a straight through serial cable, not null  modem.

    You have to send commands by holding alt and pressing "0","1","0" (this took me a bit to figure out)

    My DS1052E now displays 2ns per division even after power cycle, and *IDN? says it is a DS1102E  ;)

    Running the self calibration now.

    Thanks guys
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mastro Gippo on March 18, 2010, 08:54:16 pm
    Damn, the post notification mail didn't work, and I discovered the news just today!
    I just made the mod myself, and IT WORKS GREAT!! Thanks everyone... I should add a few info about my experience:
    The correct method is to changhe the serial number first, then the model number, then you can power cycle the scope. Keep your fingers away from the "enter" key!! If you press it instead of the alt+010 combination, it will add a line return at the end of the serial number. Always double check the results of the query commands before power cycling.

    My father did some tests with a professional signal generator, you can see the data and graphs in the attached document. Somehow excel won't let me set the horizontal scale to logarithmic, so I left everything as-is.
    I'm happy!  ;D
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Dynomo on March 18, 2010, 09:12:37 pm
    Damn, the post notification mail didn't work, and I discovered the news just today!
    I just made the mod myself, and IT WORKS GREAT!! Thanks everyone... I should add a few info about my experience:
    The correct method is to changhe the serial number first, then the model number, then you can power cycle the scope. Keep your fingers away from the "enter" key!! If you press it instead of the alt+010 combination, it will add a line return at the end of the serial number. Always double check the results of the query commands before power cycling.

    My father did some tests with a professional signal generator, you can see the data and graphs in the attached document. Somehow excel won't let me set the horizontal scale to logarithmic, so I left everything as-is.
    I'm happy!  ;D

    I did the model number then the serial number, worked fine that way round for me. I was swapping back and forth between 100mhz to 50mhz doing some testing and accidently left the E off the model number and the scope still booted up fine to my surprise. I never noticed I have left the E off the model number until I looked at the scope wondering why the model number was wrong :) It fired up with DS1102 as 100mhz ok luckily.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 18, 2010, 09:25:36 pm
    I connected pulse generator directly to the scope and there is no ringing any more  ;D

    That's really great to see, thanks.  Very impressive performance.

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: DJPhil on March 19, 2010, 12:22:01 am
    you can see the data and graphs in the attached document.

    Thanks for the procedure details. :)

    I just wanted to include a short bit for those who don't speak Italian and may be confused by the bottom two graphs in the spreadsheet.

    Canale = Channel
    Differenza misura frequenza = frequency difference measurement
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on March 19, 2010, 05:20:39 am


    ..some tests with a professional signal generator....

    I take partial picture about this test xls to here. I hope Mastro Gippo accept this copy. (in copy read source info)

    (http://i969.photobucket.com/albums/ae171/Xie_07/example5crop.jpg)

    I want ask: What are numbers in Y scale? (My quess (becouse these shown numbers) is that they are scope measured RMS and if they are, please connect this 50ohm terminator and test agen ;) ). Sig gen output is for 50ohm load.)

    What are oscilloscope settings in this measure. Same settings in whole frequency scale? (scope mV/div, equtime or realtime? x ns/div? normal memory? Sinx/x on/off?)
    What is signal  exactly connection to oscilloscope inputs.  (cable type/termination? calibration or some opinion how accurate leveling over used freq range = also if it is R&S it may be fail.)

    If I or somebody tell data/numbers but not tell how I get data/numbers they are nearly or just as garbage... ;)

    I ask becouse there is something wrong!
    there is minimum 3 posibilities:

    1. Test configuration is bad? (bad cable/missing or fail termination.)
    2. Your oscilloscope is fail. (not my first opinion becouse both channels equal)
    3. Signal generator is fail. (leveling defect)

    If all is ok with test: 1052Emod or 1102E frequency response (flatness) is never as bad as in picture. If picture freq response is true for these scopes they are just as toys or garbace stuffs. (but they are not if they work normally)

    But in real: Simple, I think test configuration fails ;)



    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: flolic on March 19, 2010, 06:51:44 am
    I was swapping back and forth between 100mhz to 50mhz doing some testing and accidently left the E off the model number and the scope still booted up fine to my surprise. I never noticed I have left the E off the model number until I looked at the scope wondering why the model number was wrong :) It fired up with DS1102 as 100mhz ok luckily.

    What makes me think, maybe we should try to rename the scope as DS1152E or DS1202E and get even more from it  ;D
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: flolic on March 19, 2010, 06:53:58 am

    I ask becouse there is something wrong!
    there is minimum 3 posibilities:

    1. Test configuration is bad? (bad cable/missing or fail termination.)
    2. Your oscilloscope is fail. (not my first opinion becouse both channels equal)
    3. Signal generator is fail. (leveling defect)


    My vote goes for a number 1  ;)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: JimBeam on March 19, 2010, 07:01:55 am
    What makes me think, maybe we should try to rename the scope as DS1152E or DS1202E and get even more from it  ;D
    Or maybe 1204D, and suddenly two additional BNC and a SCSI like connector blossom up on the front  ;D ;D
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: flolic on March 19, 2010, 07:20:34 am
    P.S.  BTW, I wanted to say "thanks" for those exceptional detailed photos you did of the Rigol internals.  The combined panoramic shots were phenominally good, and extremely well lit.  Really amazing.  Thanks!

    Haha, I tried my best  :)
    Also, I am sure that you would not believe me when I tell you that only lighting was from my flashlight  ;D
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: flolic on March 19, 2010, 07:33:01 am

    Or maybe 1204D, and suddenly two additional BNC and a SCSI like connector blossom up on the front  ;D ;D

    Mmmm, I definitely have to try that   ;D
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mastro Gippo on March 19, 2010, 08:06:48 am

    I want ask: What are numbers in Y scale? (My quess (becouse these shown numbers) is that they are scope measured RMS and if they are, please connect this 50ohm terminator and test agen ;) ). Sig gen output is for 50ohm load.)

    What are oscilloscope settings in this measure. Same settings in whole frequency scale? (scope mV/div, equtime or realtime? x ns/div? normal memory? Sinx/x on/off?)
    What is signal  exactly connection to oscilloscope inputs.  (cable type/termination? calibration or some opinion how accurate leveling over used freq range = also if it is R&S it may be fail.)

    If I or somebody tell data/numbers but not tell how I get data/numbers they are nearly or just as garbage... ;)

    I ask becouse there is something wrong!
    there is minimum 3 posibilities:

    1. Test configuration is bad? (bad cable/missing or fail termination.)
    2. Your oscilloscope is fail. (not my first opinion becouse both channels equal)
    3. Signal generator is fail. (leveling defect)

    If all is ok with test: 1052Emod or 1102E frequency response (flatness) is never as bad as in picture. If picture freq response is true for these scopes they are just as toys or garbace stuffs. (but they are not if they work normally)

    But in real: Simple, I think test configuration fails ;)

    whoah, sorry!
    Numbers on Y scale are mVpp, for the setup I don't know exactly but I think he just wired it up with a bnc-bnc cable, w/o terminator. I'll ask him later, but it's all my fault for not telling him.
    About oscilloscope settings, I guess he zoomed up as needed to keep the signal well visible. All the other settings should be the default ones, as I factory reseted it after changing SN.
    By the way, I remember doing a similar test when I got the scope, and with the 50ohm terminator I got a similar "wavy" curve...
    Can you post the correct setup so I can repeat the test? I feel bad for my father, as he spent 3 hours taking that data for me..  :-[
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on March 19, 2010, 08:53:19 am
    Keep macines on minimum 30 minutes before test and before test run Rigol selfcal and maybe also R&S selfcal.


    Sign gen (R&S) out (N or BNC)-------50ohm cable -------- (50ohm GOOD terminator!)-BNC Rigol CHx

    R&S out ~106mVrms example 10, 50 or 100kHz and this R&S Vrms level mean that it is TO 50 ohm load IF this instrument is with 50 ohm output (there are also other impedances dependent model options. Temination and cable need match for this)
    If you forget termination you see wrong level and may see also bad flatness (cable lenght, input of scope etc play together and SWR make all measurements fail (some points may be just ok but you can not know what) and you see near like double values in voltage (in low frequencies).  (as can see your data)  

    (note: I do not know this individual sig gen details so I do not know how is this low freq end and is it trusted level in low freq. So if you want 10MHz as reference point for 0dB vertical... use it and do this initial procedure for leveling with example 10MHz (this case use 2ns/diw also for this)
    --------
    EDIT: (SMB100A: Level uncertainty f = 200 kHz to 3 GHz <0.5 dB) so, I recommend to take 200kHz for vertical 0dB ref point and for this initial settings for this test and in this case 1us/div is better for horizontal)
    --------

    Rigol
    CH1 (or) CH2 only in use.
    DC
    50mV/div
    5us/div  (use 2 or 5 ns/div if 10MHz as 0dB vertical reference. This case not directly comparable to normal scope specs)
    equtime
    Average 8
    center trig, center vertical

    Check rigol with average in use that it show exactly 6div vertical. (exaxtly 300mVp-p +-2mVp-p)
    If not, adjust R&S level littlebit so that display in Rigol is 300p-p (106mVrms) It is good practice not use maximum vertical area in scope. This scope have 8div vertical so it is reasonamble to use around 6 div. (of course can use what ever levels but this is example and my practice (maybe coming fron Agilent... oh no...I mean Hewlett-Packard of course and Tektronix... ;) )

    After this, do not touch R&S output level.

    Now tst conf is ok and reference is ok for measure BW and also we have 0dB reference point (10, 50 or 100kHz)
    Change R&S to 10MHz (and later step up forward)

    Change Rigol to

    CH1 (or) CH2 only in use.
    50mV/div
    2ns/div (of course 5 if 1052 original in test)
    egualtime
    Average 4 - 8

    make tests with all desired freq points between 10 to >200MHz (no need touch vertical speed). rememember wait enough averaging if average is use! (for randomnoise I recommend averaging becouse this is not analog oscilloscope)
    10MHz level is typically now around 1- 3% low compare to refpoint.

    Of course you can also use different test signal levels. (Vp-p = Vrms * 1,4142 * 2)
    This give good picture about real BW.
    (BW maybe littlebit different in 2 main bands in V/div settings. listen relay click...you know these bands. 2-200mV and 500mV - 10V also maybe some small differents in other settings)

    Also if like testing, same with realtime (but sinx OFF becouse sinx in this rigol IS bad)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on March 19, 2010, 10:48:10 am
    I think this question is ok specially in this topic now after all this knowledge.

    I know this is littlebit paranoid question. But I also think that this IS relevant question and maybe it is also hard question. So hard that maybe we do not want know all (possible) dirty truth. Maybe too hard...

    Peoples buy Rigol DS1102E from china or other country from supplier who do not buy directly from Rigol factory these equipments.

    How they can really know that they have genuine Rigol factory made original DS1102E or counterfeit?

    How many pictures we can find what are take inside PCB's from both models. If original factory made 1102 or 1052, are there differencies or are these seen differencies only revision differences. (specially in PCB just after BNC connector.)

    I can not believe that this is first time when somebody know how to do this modification?

    Also inside Rigol there are many peoples..... maybe somebody find good "night job".





    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: flolic on March 19, 2010, 11:42:49 am
    I suppose that only way for check if is it genuine instrument is by serial number?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on March 19, 2010, 11:48:38 am
    I suppose that only way for check if is it genuine instrument is by serial number?

    How?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: KTP on March 19, 2010, 11:49:05 am
    How could it be remotely economical to counterfit such a vertical market product as an oscilloscope and sell it for $400???

    My DS1052E seems to have nice knobs and buttons and a good finish, at least on the outside.

    If it is a counterfit then I would like this company to make me a $1000 Lexus or BMW please.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: flolic on March 19, 2010, 12:14:23 pm

    How?

    I am stupid!  ;D
    Hard or impossible. You can check with Rigol if that serial number belongs to 100MHZ or 50MHz instrument, but if
    counterfeit it can be multiple instruments with the same serial...
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: tristan on March 19, 2010, 12:22:59 pm
    I think the problems I described a few posts back (scope locking up, corrupted system info display) might have been due to me hitting return before alt-010. It didn't cause a permanent problem but it's worth being careful. The display corruption looked like random data got into the video buffer RAM - maybe the incorrect S/N or version didn't have proper null termination resulting in a buffer overflow?

    Tristan
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: flolic on March 19, 2010, 12:23:26 pm
    How could it be remotely economical to counterfit such a vertical market product as an oscilloscope and sell it for $400???

    My DS1052E seems to have nice knobs and buttons and a good finish, at least on the outside.

    If it is a counterfit then I would like this company to make me a $1000 Lexus or BMW please.

    Think about it, you can buy ship cargo container of 50MHz units for 150$ a piece (and probably even less), firmware modified it, change front panel label to 100MHz and sell it for 700$+  8)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: KTP on March 19, 2010, 12:24:13 pm
    Do you guys really mean stolen when you say counterfit?  I don't know if this word translates to something else in non-english language.

    I can't imagine the R&D that would be involved in accurately counterfitting the Rigol DS1052E and getting it to perform similar to the true model, not to mention creating all of the injection molds for the various plastic components and buttons.  Then they would have to source all of the analog parts....all of this to sell a few thousand units on ebay????

    I could see counterfitting a mop or perhaps a cheap cellphone that would sell millions, but this?

    Or do you guys mean that some employee stole a few hundred Rigol scopes from the factory and sold them on ebay?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: flolic on March 19, 2010, 12:33:02 pm
    Counterfeit is probably not the best word, but in my language (Croatian) it translates right...
    By counterfeit I mean buy 1052E, modify it, change labels and sell it as genuine 1102E for extra profit.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: flolic on March 19, 2010, 12:36:16 pm
    I think the problems I described a few posts back (scope locking up, corrupted system info display) might have been due to me hitting return before alt-010.

    Yes, you are right on that ;)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on March 19, 2010, 12:39:02 pm
    How could it be remotely economical to counterfit such a vertical market product as an oscilloscope and sell it for $400???

    My DS1052E seems to have nice knobs and buttons and a good finish, at least on the outside.

    If it is a counterfit then I would like this company to make me a $1000 Lexus or BMW please.

    First, there is no any kind of mind to make counterfeit RigolD1052E. Not of course. I think you miss now some few points. Also maybe not know what are Chinese inside country markets and peoples living there. I know something, I have be there.

    If there is any counterfeit business it ALL need happen there.

    Do you know how much money is USD400 example inside China.
    Do you know how much these kind of labels cost in China.
    Do you know that 1052 is same as 1102
    Do you know that scope itself can change model with 15 seconds.

    Now if you know this all how to do and also you know how to do all perfect counterfeit things for labelling this scope to different model. Oh... maybe 10RMB...

    Next you organize some hundreds or thousends of cheap 1052E go to to change after some buy 1102 example from some asian webstore.

    If you get example 1000RMB per unit...

    And then you are source to some webstore...

    This is not much here in western country... with this money one people can easy live one month in China and I can tell that for this kind of business there you can find very easy million people who want competite who can do this...

    Do you know how big business it is example make "genuine" labels for counterfeit batteries... and money in these are just only coins...  there are so many peoples who are ready to make lot of work for get 1RMB. With 2RMB I find tens of peoles who are ready to pickup me with bicycle...  

    If this small business for change cheap 1052 to 1102 is possible to somebody without (or just cheap) money and can get part of this money what is price difference between these models... you can be sure somebody have done it or do it all this time.

    Who really think make counterfeit oscilloscope... no one.
    But buy ready made cheap model and change it to expensive model...

    Some people in China only open his window and there rains money in... they are not stupid.
    But we... we think that we can check if qenuine by looking serial number... just we talk that mod need sernum change and it takes just second with whatever RS232 terminal (no need PC). Whole type change take not more than 15minutes per unit and this time include also eating, tea and toilet time. After this time normal customer can not know that it was 1052E originally. These cheap labels and papers with scope... how many these you want? Walk an hour around "small" 10million peoples town in right place in China and you have (but be sure that do not try if somebody can quess you are not Chinese)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: jone on March 19, 2010, 12:39:28 pm
    I think the problems I described a few posts back (scope locking up, corrupted system info display) might have been due to me hitting return before alt-010.

    Easier than alt-010, configure your terminal software to use only LF for newlines (if using the serial port)... I guess some windows software is configured for CR/LF by default?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on March 19, 2010, 12:47:24 pm
    Also when you mod... insert RS232 terminal cable before you powON. So you can be sure that buffer have nothing "scratch". And before all, do these right settings for comm parameters. (avoid machines what have not RS232 standard signal levels!)

    Remember that in Sysdata displ (R/S red) after *RST it preboot with new "data"... (R/S go green but all is freeze -- do not touch) and....... then powoff/on. also do NOT this mod if Rmt on dspl.

    --------


    Do NOT try try this modification with RS232 communication if you do not really know how to do this kind of RS232 communication what works perfect. It need work perfect in HW level and it must do without any mistake in data. If you are not really sure how to do reliable trustworth and robust serial connection do not even try. You may seriously damage your oscilloscope. Remember: this use undocumented commands! fail in data may damage your machine nearly as permanently.

    Before you do anything with undocumented commands you need (minimum) be sure that communication have no any kind error what may product unwanted transmitted data inside oscilloscope.

    Also do not trust Windows/PC RS232 port. It may be out of specifications by many meanings even with voltage levels.
    Any missing, extra or wrong data may damage your scope with these undocumented commands.


    This is only one small example about RS232 problems with PC and Microsoft:
    http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=131609&nid=-35204.0.00&id=131609

    "Problems Using RS-232 on Agilent Instruments with Laptop PCs running any Microsoft OS
    Symptoms: Timeouts, corrupt data, missing data, error messages while uploading data
    "
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: KTP on March 19, 2010, 12:52:29 pm
    Ok, I see what  you meant by counterfeit Rigol scopes.  You guys were talking about DS1102E scopes that were former DS1052E models before a quick flash of the model and serial number.

    Since there is not a model below a DS1052E, we must assume *those* scopes are not counterfeit.  Then the ebay email that person received that said the DS1052E was being removed because of being counterfeit is probably untrue.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mastro Gippo on March 19, 2010, 01:06:12 pm
    Sign gen (R&S) out (N or BNC)-------50ohm cable -------- (50ohm GOOD terminator!)-BNC Rigol CHx

    So... you're not talking about a T splitter with the signal from one end and 2 100ohm resistor in parallel wired to the other, right?  :-\

    I think the problems I described a few posts back (scope locking up, corrupted system info display) might have been due to me hitting return before alt-010.
    Yes and no (and maybe  :D); I happened to do the same mistake, but the scope didn't lock or corrupt; only difference was, when sending the first *idn? command, it replied
    Code: [Select]
    Rigol Technologies, DS1052E, DS1ED112404432
    , 00.02.02.02.00
    instead of
    Code: [Select]
    Rigol Technologies, DS1052E, DS1ED112404432, 00.02.02.02.00
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: flolic on March 19, 2010, 01:43:38 pm

    So... you're not talking about a T splitter with the signal from one end and 2 100ohm resistor in parallel wired to the other, right?  :-\

    I don't have good experience with T splitter, but maybe there is a problem with it, it is cheap LAN splitter. And you definitely need good BNC 50 ohm coaxial terminator. Two paralleled 100 ohm resistors can do it, but are far from ideal...

    IMHO, best way is to use feed through 50 ohm BNC terminator, like that on bottom of this page: http://accessories.picotech.com/attenuators.html
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on March 19, 2010, 02:33:18 pm
    Also 2 channels can not test parallel without very special knowledge how to do and without also special things what this need.

    Test only  single channel at once!
    (first I look this picture and numbers I think that oh... there is two cable and without terminator... ;)  )

    In emergency situation (with these quite low frequencies) some kind of termination can do so that there is T in the scope end.
    50 ohm cable to T and free end of T can put small LOW inductance resistor with as short wires as possible from center to ground. But also can use ethernet terminator if nothing else is in hand. (but both of these need remember that in the high end of frequency there may be some errors. But still these are better than nothing. Most bad of course is try channels parallel.)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: KTP on March 19, 2010, 05:29:57 pm
    Hey, so how are you guys getting this fast rise time pulses into the DS1052E?

    I just tried to build a fast rise time circuit to test my newly modified DS1052E and it was fail.

    I had a fairchild tinylogic NC7NZ14 inverting schmitt trigger that I built deadbug style on a piece of copper circuit board (which was an amazing feat if you consider how small this smt part is.  It works, but the scope displays a horrible ringing and the risetime is more like 20ns than the 4ns I was expecting.  I have the little copper board connected to the bnc input of the scope through about 1/2 inch of cable and I am feeding the schmitt trigger with a 1khz square wave from a wavetek model 21 FG.  Of course the signal looks the same on my TDS 210, so I know the fault is with my setup and not the DS1052E...
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: flolic on March 19, 2010, 06:26:18 pm
    Did you see this link?  http://www.i9t.net/fast-pulse/fast-pulse.html (http://www.i9t.net/fast-pulse/fast-pulse.html)
    This is fastest pulse generator you can easily built, imho.

    And this is how I built it, supply circuit is on the other PCB:
    (http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/5646/pulser.jpg)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: djsb on March 19, 2010, 06:26:42 pm
    Hi,
    I've been following this thread with interest. Can someone please summarise the steps needed to convert the DS1052E to 100Mhz?
    Thanks.

    David.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 19, 2010, 06:33:02 pm
    Hi,
    I've been following this thread with interest. Can someone please summarise the steps needed to convert the DS1052E to 100Mhz?
    Thanks.

    David.

    here here, I know it's simple but I'm sure many will be in fear of screwing up their scopes if they do something wrong. I'm just off to the shops to get a cable. unfortunately the deadly maplin being the only ones to stock them, maybe it won't fall apart on me
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: jahonen on March 19, 2010, 07:05:03 pm
    Direct link to that LTC application note for your convenience: Linear Technology Application note #47, page 93 (http://cds.linear.com/docs/Application%20Note/an47fa.pdf#page=93).

    Cyclone II FPGA LVTTL outputs are still faster, around 160 ps what I have measured from them (without any capacitive loading).

    Regards,
    Janne
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: KTP on March 19, 2010, 07:13:39 pm
    I'll take a stab at what I did, although I don't make any guarantee you will have success and I do not accept any liability if you choose to make these modifications to your scope.  I seem to have converted my DS1052E to a DS1102E, at least it says so under the utility menu and when I send *IDN? to the RS232 port.  Also my minimum time/division is now 2ns.

    First I built a straight through 9 pin serial cable although I only used pins 2,3 and 5 (ground).  If you want to test your cable with hyperterminal you can short pins 2 and 3 on the end not plugged into your computer and you should see what you type echoed back to you (or echoed twice if you have the autoecho thing enabled in hyperterminal).

    I then read through the how to set up hyperterminal document that Rigol published.  

    http://www.rigol.com/upload/accessory/20102/2010221051162027445.pdf

    Actually I didn't read this until I had spent 10 minutes trying to figure out why I couldn't send commands to the DS1052E..it was because I was trying to use the enter key and instead should hold down alt and press "0","1","0"  ;)

    I then connected the scope to the pc and ran hyperterminal setting it up exactly as in the instructions.  I verified I was talking to the DS1052E by typeing *IDN? (followed by alt "0","1","0") and the scope relayed back to me the model number, serial number and firmware version.  I copied this stuff down in case I wanted to go back to my original setup for some reason.

    I then used the not so super secret serial command:

    :INFO:MODEL DS1102E (followed by alt "0","1","0")

    to write a new model number to the flash on the scope.

    I then used the other serial command:

    :INFO:SERIAL DS1EB104702974 (followed by alt "0","1","0")

    to write a new serial number to the flash on the scope.  I found this serial number on the documentation that came on the CD with the scope under programming examples.  It was an example of what the output might look like when you type *IDN? on a DS1102E so I figured it would be a valid serial number :)

    After this I just pressed power off and then powered back on, but other people have done a software reset through the serial port I think.  I am not sure what that command is... *RST or something?  When I powered back on I reconnected via RS232 and issued a *IDN? command (followed by alt "0","1","0") and it showed the Model as being DS1102E and the serial number being the new one.  I checked the time/div and it now went down to 2nS.  I then went to the utility menu and ran the self calibration (takes about 5 minutes and you should have everything but the power cord disconnected from the scope...also make sure the scope has been on for at least 30 minutes).

    Well, that is about what I did to the best of my recollection.  I don't recommend trying any of this until someone confirms my steps as I may have done it wrong.  I don't see the reason for people to be smug or try and hide the information (or make vague references to how "easy" it is but not describe anything).  hopefully I have been of some help.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: KTP on March 19, 2010, 07:19:16 pm

    Thank you flolic! (and Jahonen) for the link to the pulse source...reading it now.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 19, 2010, 08:05:37 pm
    ok  so I followed rigols example instructions and get nothing ! now I'm using a null modem serial cable, is that the right one ? I hope it is after spending 11 quid !
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: anthonycroberts on March 19, 2010, 08:09:29 pm
    Simon,

    Null modem would be the wrong cable (assuming you're trying to connect to a normal PC serial port).

    Cheers,
    Tony
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: miki on March 19, 2010, 08:10:37 pm
    Simon, you shouldn't be using null modem cable (which has crossed signals) but a straight one.

    Since you already bought null modem type perhaps you can disassemble one of the connectors (if it's not molded) and try to reverse the order on the TX and RX pins.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 19, 2010, 08:19:54 pm
    I knew it ! trust flipping maplin ! any chance of cutting it in the middle and changing the right wires ? or maybe I can pull the plug apart but it "looks" molded, so do I need to rewire the cable so that each connector is connected to the same pin on the other end ?

    oh and just to make it clear, the maplin website says straight, the cable sold is null, maplins: home of first class idiots !, like i said before your safer on ebay than with maplin !
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: anthonycroberts on March 19, 2010, 08:29:55 pm
    Split the cable in the middle and swap pins 2&3.  Leave 5 (gnd) connected.  Based on previous posts pertaining to the use of simple 3-pin serial, the rest of the pins should be OK to be left disconnected.

    -Tony
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: flolic on March 19, 2010, 08:30:44 pm
    Yes. Cut it in the middle and reconnect wires in a right way. Of all wires, you need only pins 2, 3 and 5 to be connected  ;)
    http://digital.ni.com/public.nsf/allkb/1EE0DD8AF67922FA86256F720071DECF (http://digital.ni.com/public.nsf/allkb/1EE0DD8AF67922FA86256F720071DECF)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 19, 2010, 08:33:15 pm
    well I just prised the connector open only to have the end pop out and leave wires sealed inside, ah this will be one big mess to rewire, looks like a hacksaw and stanly knife job and a complete rewire together again

    EDIT: I think I'll just cut the rest of the plug off and start from scratch

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: luky315 on March 19, 2010, 08:34:20 pm
    There's another possibility to generate very fast pulses:
    Take a fast D-Flipflop (AHCT series) and connect the output directly to the CLEAR input. The result is a Pulse with a length of <3ns on each rising Edge of the input clock signal.
    Not fast enough? Then connect this output to the base of a HF npn Transistor with a ~30Ohm resistor on the collector to 5V and the Emitter connected to GND. After the collector use a matched 50Ohm Coplanar Waveguide with an approximately 4mm long stub to GND. The result is a positive and a negative Puls with < 150ps duration. If you don't like the negative pulse, use a fast Schottky Diode to cut it away. Than you have presumably the fastest hobby pulse generator.
    The bad  news is that the DS1102 isn't fast enought for this...
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mastro Gippo on March 19, 2010, 08:39:11 pm
    Thank you rf-loop for the good suggestions, but I won't have access to the R&S SG for the next week, so you'll have to wait for the updated results, if you're still interested.

    I don't see the reason for people to be smug or try and hide the information (or make vague references to how "easy" it is but not describe anything).

    Usually people do this to encourage people to figure it out themselves. But not with bad intentions! Especially in this case, the solution is really trivial and can be found by anyone reading the hints given in previous posts. By "forcing" them to learn and search a bit, you help them getting familiar with what they are going to do and take more responsibility for their actions.
    By the way, I didn't change the serial number on mine, I just changed the single character 'D' to 'B' so the number still matches the old one.
    I saved the log file of the session for future reference too.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: dimlow on March 19, 2010, 08:44:40 pm
    Instead of all this Alt 0 1 0 business why dont you just download a simply terminal program that does the job nicely, I found this http://www.compuphase.com/software_termite.htm looks like it will do the job! All you need to do is set the com port up and your done.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: KTP on March 19, 2010, 09:03:13 pm
    Instead of all this Alt 0 1 0 business why dont you just download a simply terminal program that does the job nicely, I found this http://www.compuphase.com/software_termite.htm looks like it will do the job! All you need to do is set the com port up and your done.

    Because the only fracking computer I could find that actually HAD a RS232 serial port was the one in my garage shop running a cnc mill, and it was not connected to the internet.  I guess I could have dug around for a usb dongle and transfered a downloaed terminal program to it, but pressing alt 010 seemed easier?

    I really lament the loss of rs232 serial ports and also parallel ports from modern computers.  Those were great reliable interfaces when you just needed to get the job done quick and dirty.  Now you have to go all USB, and nothing is quick and easy anymore :(
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: KTP on March 19, 2010, 09:08:40 pm
    I should express to everyone playing with their DS1052E serial port to beware of static discharge.  I have no idea what the level converter chip is inside the Rigol scope but I know I personally have fried chips that supposedly had 15KV of static protection.  Ground yourself by touching a screw on your computer power supply or the bnc on the front of your scope before you touch the physical pins of your scope or computer serial port (if you are doing rewiring and such).
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 19, 2010, 09:13:25 pm
    Split the cable in the middle and swap pins 2&3.  Leave 5 (gnd) connected.  Based on previous posts pertaining to the use of simple 3-pin serial, the rest of the pins should be OK to be left disconnected.

    -Tony

    Am I right in connecting each pin in the plug to the same numbered pin of the other plug ? I'd rather reconnect them all to save having wires floating around, I may also be using this at work so need it to look like its not that crazy
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: KTP on March 19, 2010, 09:21:44 pm
    Usually people do this to encourage people to figure it out themselves. But not with bad intentions! Especially in this case, the solution is really trivial and can be found by anyone reading the hints given in previous posts. By "forcing" them to learn and search a bit, you help them getting familiar with what they are going to do and take more responsibility for their actions.
    By the way, I didn't change the serial number on mine, I just changed the single character 'D' to 'B' so the number still matches the old one.
    I saved the log file of the session for future reference too.

    Ok I agree with you that usually it is good for people to discover how to do something with research...like for instance a homework problem or something where they are going gain insight through experimentation.  In this case though there were a number of inconsistancies (some people saying it is ok to write serial number first then model number, some people saying be careful not to put an enter into the serial string, etc.) that a somewhat detailed explanation of how one person did the conversion is of some value.  I don't mind deleting my explanation post though if you guys think this would be better served by discovery.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: dimlow on March 19, 2010, 09:24:46 pm

    I really lament the loss of rs232 serial ports and also parallel ports from modern computers.  Those were great reliable interfaces when you just needed to get the job done quick and dirty.  Now you have to go all USB, and nothing is quick and easy anymore :(

    Oh yes, the loss of the Serial port...

    I have 5 PC's here, 2 have serial ports, all have windows 7. Not one of them with hyper terminal. One dual boots to XP, but that does not have serial, so i tried a USB - Serial dongle, no luck there, then the main PC but i had fried the serial port on that only a few weeks ago. So i had to install a PCI serial card in that, and download Hyper terminal. Still that didn't work. Eventually i found my sons PC had a Serial port, i downloaded Hyper Terminal to that and finally got a connection to the Scope. Once i had got that far, it was easy, but just getting a PC with a working serial port to talk to the scope took an age.

     It was only later after i had already done the scope did i think of downloading an alternative terminal program to stop all that Alt 010 business. So i searched found one and thought id share.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: anthonycroberts on March 19, 2010, 09:51:42 pm
    Split the cable in the middle and swap pins 2&3.  Leave 5 (gnd) connected.  Based on previous posts pertaining to the use of simple 3-pin serial, the rest of the pins should be OK to be left disconnected.

    -Tony

    Am I right in connecting each pin in the plug to the same numbered pin of the other plug ? I'd rather reconnect them all to save having wires floating around, I may also be using this at work so need it to look like its not that crazy


    For the simple case of PC serial port -> scope, yes.  2,3,4 straight through to 2,3,4.  frolic's link provides a pretty solid diagram.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 19, 2010, 09:53:01 pm
    Well I did it ! I'm so pleased.

    now I'm getting quite enthusiastic about this thing where you can control the scope via a pc, is there any way of making use of this to setup the whole scope to the defaults you want ? say some sort of batch file ? I suppose there is also the possibility of having a uC control the scope.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: KTP on March 19, 2010, 10:02:39 pm
    by did it, do you mean you also did the 1052 to 1102 conversion?

    If you look at the files on the disk that came with your scope there is a document that gives example code for controlling your scope from a visual basic or visual c program (although maybe over usb, i can't remember and don't have the file in front of me).
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 19, 2010, 10:18:04 pm
    by did it, do you mean you also did the 1052 to 1102 conversion?

    If you look at the files on the disk that came with your scope there is a document that gives example code for controlling your scope from a visual basic or visual c program (although maybe over usb, i can't remember and don't have the file in front of me).

    yes I did the conversion,

    I have also been able to nail the scope down on the inherent noise it suffers from (fine use of the trig knob) I would guess it is sinusoidal as it is quite weak and i estimate the frequency (its so small an amplitude the scope can't actually do any measuring functions in respect of time) to be 100 MHz: the speed of each of the 10 ADC's

    EDIT: the duration of each waveform of noise is 10 nS that does work out to be 100 MHz dosen't it ?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 20, 2010, 12:56:06 am
    I'm getting quite enthusiastic about this thing where you can control the scope via a pc, is there any way of making use of this to setup the whole scope to the defaults you want ? say some sort of batch file ? I suppose there is also the possibility of having a uC control the scope.

    You can send a list of individual commands, to configure all the settings.  Unlike the 1000B series, it has no commands to save and reload all the configuration settings at once (*LRN?, and :SYSTEM:SETUP?).  So you have to do it the "hard way", but that does let you tailor individual settings more easily.

    You do know that you can create 10 custom configurations and store them directly on the scope itself, correct?  You can reload any of up to 10 Setups you've saved using the Storage submenus.  And you can save an unlimited number, and recall them by name (rather than just #0-9), to an external USB memory stick.

    And, yes, the scope can be controlled by anything that can send serial text commands... via RS232 or USB.

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 20, 2010, 03:56:35 am
    The firmware images don't appear to be signed, so they could be modified easily

    I wouldn't be so sure.

    Quote
    they are 4194325-byte files, which seems to me like a 21-byte header plus a 4MB firmware image.   The header is:

    0000000: 4453 3130 3030 4520 2020 3032 2e30 322e 3032 2e30 30  DS1000E   02.02.02.00

    That part is correct.

    Quote
    There's no room for a hash, so you could do whatever you want to the file.

    There's no room for a hash in the header, but that desn't mean that one (or a CRC) isn't embedded in the firmware images, to detect corruption or tampering.

    Quote
    Unfortunately, this means that there's no sort of bootloader which could recover corrupted firmware, so your options would be to desolder the NOR flash holding the firmware and reprogram it using a chip programmer, or try to get the 13-pin JTAG-looking connector working.

    Actually, there IS a bootloader in the BlackFins, in protected space.  But I doubt it would have the ability to read files off a USB stick.  So in that sense, you may be right that once corrupted software was loaded, recovery would be difficult.

    OR, they may have a dual-image system, where they can load a 2nd set of firmware into the other half of Flash, but not toggle control over to it until it had been successfully validated.  Otherwise, once they started a reflash cycle, they'd have to blow away the original firmware first.  From which point there'd be no recovery on power fail or by the time it knew the image it loaded was bad.

    That could explain how they utilize 8 MB of Spansion Flash, when the firmware only occupies 4 MB.  And during operation, the remaining 4 MB can be scratchpad space (like 1 MB for Reference waveform memory, as Andreas and Drieg pointed out).

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 20, 2010, 04:11:33 am
    Actually I didn't read this until I had spent 10 minutes trying to figure out why I couldn't send commands to the DS1052E..it was because I was trying to use the enter key and instead should hold down alt and press "0","1","0"

    I believe HyperTerm will let you configure the line terminator, but if not if may be easier to type ^J (that's control-J, not uparrow-J) to end a command line (a bit less clumsy way to get an LF without the ALT-nnn sequence).

    - Mark


    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 20, 2010, 04:49:28 am
    How many pictures we can find what are take inside PCB's from both models. If original factory made 1102 or 1052, are there differencies or are these seen differencies only revision differences. (specially in PCB just after BNC connector.)

    So far, none of the DS1052E internals I've seen have the 2nd switching relay in the front-end, which the 1102E seem to have.

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 20, 2010, 04:55:11 am
    I can't imagine the R&D that would be involved in accurately counterfitting the Rigol DS1052E and getting it to perform similar to the true model, not to mention creating all of the injection molds for the various plastic components and buttons.  Then they would have to source all of the analog parts....

    Well, see ATTEN (now also Siglent).  That's exactly what they do.  The insides are like a photocopy of the Rigol's.  Some people think that Rigol manufactures them for ATTEN, but they actually do the cloning themselves.  And yes, that's theft of IP, and copyright infringement.  And yes, that's China.

    (But, no, that's not what anyone here was talking about.  Just making up fake labels for real Rigol scopes.)

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Dynomo on March 20, 2010, 09:01:43 am
    How many pictures we can find what are take inside PCB's from both models. If original factory made 1102 or 1052, are there differencies or are these seen differencies only revision differences. (specially in PCB just after BNC connector.)

    So far, none of the DS1052E internals I've seen have the 2nd switching relay in the front-end, which the 1102E seem to have.

    - Mark


    My DS1052E
    (http://www.mikeb.vivaciti.net/rigolpics/DSC01456.JPG)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on March 20, 2010, 09:05:52 am
    Really interesting! Lot of thanks.

    So, maybe differencies are revision differencies. Not differencies between models.

    Weeeery interesting........


    BTW:

    somebody may see this useful, I do not remeber where I find this (maybe) interesting document:

    http://www.box.net/shared/2cp5vysnya



    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 20, 2010, 10:10:34 am
    So far, none of the DS1052E internals I've seen have the 2nd switching relay in the front-end, which the 1102E seem to have.

    My DS1052E  (...with pictures of dual-relays...)


    Thanks, Dynomo!  That eliminates the only hardware-specific difference I was aware of.  Since the firmware is identical, it's looking like there may be no hardware differences.

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: David on March 20, 2010, 10:19:44 am
    I can't imagine the R&D that would be involved in accurately counterfitting the Rigol DS1052E and getting it to perform similar to the true model, not to mention creating all of the injection molds for the various plastic components and buttons.  Then they would have to source all of the analog parts....

    Well, see ATTEN (now also Siglent).  That's exactly what they do.  The insides are like a photocopy of the Rigol's.  Some people think that Rigol manufactures them for ATTEN, but they actually do the cloning themselves.  And yes, that's theft of IP, and copyright infringement.  And yes, that's China.

    (But, no, that's not what anyone here was talking about.  Just making up fake labels for real Rigol scopes.)

    - Mark

    I am positive that if you go onto the Rigol website you will see ATTEN scopes for sale too. Well at least the last time I went on you could...
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 20, 2010, 10:24:02 am
    I wonder how long it is before people start selling DS1102E/D labels for rebadging DS1052E/D units, for sure they won't be for sale for long but I bet someone tries. I'm in a quandry myself as I'll be using mine at work soon or rather our clients will be using it so I don't know how to explain away the fact that I have modded it  ;D
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 20, 2010, 10:30:42 am
    I am positive that if you go onto the Rigol website you will see ATTEN scopes for sale too. Well at least the last time I went on you could...

    ???  David, that surprises me.  I've been monitoring the Rigol websites pretty carefully for almost 2 years now, and I've never seen an ATTEN product there.  Perhaps you could supply a pointer?

    Also, Rigol's Head of Service said that, "Atten lives like a kind of thief who never gets the respect."  Doesn't sound like the kind of relationship where they'd host their (competitor's) products on their site.  You can read his full commentary here (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11911064&postcount=495), under the username RScope.

    Also, Rigol filed a lawsuit against ATTEN for violation of copyrights, and won.  You can find it with a Google search.

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 20, 2010, 10:46:27 am
    I wonder how long it is before people start selling DS1102E/D labels for rebadging DS1052E/D units, for sure they won't be for sale for long but I bet someone tries. I'm in a quandry myself as I'll be using mine at work soon or rather our clients will be using it so I don't know how to explain away the fact that I have modded it  ;D

    You're in a quandary?  Why say anything at all?  There's nothing to "explain", unless you're in the mood to brag.

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Dynomo on March 20, 2010, 10:47:02 am
    So far, none of the DS1052E internals I've seen have the 2nd switching relay in the front-end, which the 1102E seem to have.

    My DS1052E  (...with pictures of dual-relays...)


    Thanks, Dynomo!  That eliminates the only hardware-specific difference I was aware of.  Since the firmware is identical, it's looking like there may be no hardware differences.

    - Mark

    Some more pics here
    http://www.mikeb.vivaciti.net/rigolpics
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 20, 2010, 11:10:10 am
    Some more pics here
    http://www.mikeb.vivaciti.net/rigolpics

    Thanks a lot, Mike, for taking the time.  There are some shots in there I'd never seen before.  I see your board is labeled DEMO6 (and flolic's was DEMO5).  Also, they kind of cooked the 2005 Keyboard PCB when they soldered on the pots.

    - Mark

    P.S.  One of the files (1477) doesn't seem to be accessible...
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 20, 2010, 11:29:35 am
    I wonder how long it is before people start selling DS1102E/D labels for rebadging DS1052E/D units, for sure they won't be for sale for long but I bet someone tries. I'm in a quandry myself as I'll be using mine at work soon or rather our clients will be using it so I don't know how to explain away the fact that I have modded it  ;D

    You're in a quandary?  Why say anything at all?  There's nothing to "explain", unless you're in the mood to brag.

    - Mark


    eer the client requested a 100 MHz scope be available, so it looks a bit funny if I set up a scope that say's on it's decal 50 MHz and then tell them it is 100 MHz
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 20, 2010, 11:38:20 am
    eer the client requested a 100 MHz scope be available, so it looks a bit funny if I set up a scope that say's on it's decal 50 MHz and then tell them it is 100 MHz

    Ah, yes.  I see.  I guess that begs the question of if you knew you were to supply a 100 MHz scope for a Client, why you purchased a 50 MHz unit instead.  But you don't have to explain yourself to me.  At least I understand your dilemma now.

    - Mark

    P.S.  Black electrical tape?  ;)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Dynomo on March 20, 2010, 11:42:34 am
    Some more pics here
    http://www.mikeb.vivaciti.net/rigolpics

    Thanks a lot, Mike, for taking the time.  There are some shots in there I'd never seen before.  I see your board is labeled DEMO6 (and flolic's was DEMO5).  Also, they kind of cooked the 2005 Keyboard PCB when they soldered on the pots.

    - Mark

    P.S.  One of the files (1477) doesn't seem to be accessible...

    Np your welcome, I think the keyboard pcb  is just flux all over the board where they soldered on the pots.
    1477 was removed, it was some ddr2 ram I sold on Ebay,uploaded it by mistake :)

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 20, 2010, 11:59:38 am
    eer the client requested a 100 MHz scope be available, so it looks a bit funny if I set up a scope that say's on it's decal 50 MHz and then tell them it is 100 MHz

    Ah, yes.  I see.  I guess that begs the question of if you knew you were to supply a 100 MHz scope for a Client, why you purchased a 50 MHz unit instead.  But you don't have to explain yourself to me.  At least I understand your dilemma now.

    - Mark

    P.S.  Black electrical tape?  ;)


    well it goes like this: I work for a BOG standard company who design and make air con and cooling packs for vehicles. The companies electrical competence dates back to pre WWII ie: we still use power resistors to reduce 24 V to 12 V but then if your equiping a military vehicle (we do a lot for MOD mostly indirectly) you want it to be robust.

    We messed up on a design (nothing new) and need to verify for EMI as they go nuts over that.

    We are of course very ill equiped and the way it went was thus:

    Eng.: Simon have you got an oscilloscope in the QC dept. ?
    me:  No but I have one at home if we need one.
    Eng.: It's ok I have one upstairs, do you know how to use one
    me: (having thought well yes you stupid **** I just tyold you i OWN one) sure

    Later he called me over and showed me his sons ex hameg 303-4 and said "show me how to use it" after some fiddling trying to get a trace out of it as the buttons had obviously been randomly pressed and I'm no scope geek I just use them he said to take it away and get it working and to let him know.

    He came back later and explained that the client need a 100 MHz scope but at least we have "this one" that does 30 MHz and maybe 50 (yes for a pure sine wave only i bet) so I suggested my 50 MHz digital. took it in next day and he was impressed and said we'd best use it instead, I explained that I could probably get it to work at 100 MHz although obviosly as this guy is not on the ball (he's the one that can't draw a non abiguos evaporator coils drawing and generally get stuff right let alone understand finer things) he has not thought yet that the client will find it odd that we present a scope with 50 MHz on the face and say it will do 100 MHz, after all the mess ups we have made I know they will think we are as nuts as we are  ;D

    oh well will prove to be fun, better than the usual work routine, if only they would take electronics control more seriously I may have wider scope in the job, being a goods in QC inspector is boring  :-\
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 20, 2010, 01:25:30 pm
    Wow!   :)  I'm speechless.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: David on March 20, 2010, 07:12:07 pm
    I am positive that if you go onto the Rigol website you will see ATTEN scopes for sale too. Well at least the last time I went on you could...

    ???  David, that surprises me.  I've been monitoring the Rigol websites pretty carefully for almost 2 years now, and I've never seen an ATTEN product there.  Perhaps you could supply a pointer?

    Also, Rigol's Head of Service said that, "Atten lives like a kind of thief who never gets the respect."  Doesn't sound like the kind of relationship where they'd host their (competitor's) products on their site.  You can read his full commentary here (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11911064&postcount=495), under the username RScope.

    Also, Rigol filed a lawsuit against ATTEN for violation of copyrights, and won.  You can find it with a Google search.

    - Mark


    Forgive me, must of been half asleep when I posted that comment. I was referring to the following site, which is obviously not Rigols official website!

    http://www.rigoloscilloscope.com/
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Michael on March 20, 2010, 11:23:49 pm
    Thank you people who found this nice mod.

    I just did the mod. But why is everyone using serial cable and some kind of terminal program?
    I used the VB Rigol Visa Demo with an USB cable. Am i'm missing something ? Hack seems to be permanent after powercycle ???

    btw. had to download visa441runtime , the one supplied with the CD didn't work in Windows 7.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 21, 2010, 05:12:30 am
    Forgive me, must of been half asleep when I posted that comment. I was referring to the following site...

    No problem.  

    BTW, I'd never deal with a fraudulent website like that.  I.e., one that inflates the price, then has it "On Sale" for the full MSRP.  (Like the DS1204B at $2500 "list", "on sale" for $1900.)  That's just BS.  Two thumbs down, there.

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 21, 2010, 07:15:09 am
    Thank you people who found this nice mod.

    I just did the mod. But why is everyone using serial cable and some kind of terminal program?
    I used the VB Rigol Visa Demo with an USB cable. Am i'm missing something ? Hack seems to be permanent after powercycle ???

    btw. had to download visa441runtime , the one supplied with the CD didn't work in Windows 7.

    it's just easier and most people have a serial cable laying around anyway, wack the cable in and throw the commands at it, no need to worry about getting the USB to work,
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: dimlow on March 21, 2010, 07:37:32 am
    Try getting USB and Windows 7 64 bit to work!

    Well Maybe if Rigol made some decent drivers for it. It really pees me off that Some suppliers simply ignore that fact that serious users will be using a serious Operating system and never supply the full set of drivers.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 21, 2010, 07:45:38 am
    The rigol as far as I know does not work under window Vista at least I had no success, I would assume that it is the same for Win7. yea as it has been noted before they do the absolute minimum and have made their products outdated when it comes to PC interfacing, I hardly consider Rigol a serious company for this, the quality of their scopes in the light of this to me is a fluke I only bought mine because people raved about it, and it proved a good buy.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: jone on March 21, 2010, 08:59:18 am
    The rigol as far as I know does not work under window Vista at least I had no success, I would assume that it is the same for Win7.
    You may want to try a different VISA runtime, as Michael mentions above. There is certainly a 64bit download for Vista/Win7 - http://joule.ni.com/nidu/cds/view/p/id/1408/lang/en (http://joule.ni.com/nidu/cds/view/p/id/1408/lang/en)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: mxmxmx on March 21, 2010, 09:15:11 am
    Try getting USB and Windows 7 64 bit to work!

    I don't see a problem, simply use Agilent IO Libraries or any other VISA implementation which supports that OS and architecture.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 21, 2010, 11:49:57 am
    so will that allow the rigol to work with the software they provide under vista/7 ?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: jone on March 21, 2010, 11:54:41 am
    so will that allow the rigol to work with the software they provide under vista/7 ?
    I don't have a Win7 machine here to test on, but I suspect the problem would be with the supplied drivers, rather than the Ultrascope GUI. It's certainly worth giving it a shot!
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 21, 2010, 12:00:56 pm
    downloading now, will let ya know (once I've put the scope back together)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: mxmxmx on March 21, 2010, 01:34:39 pm
    Here, Rigol UltraScope is working fine under Windows Vista x64 using the Agilent IO Libraries.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 21, 2010, 01:37:29 pm
    nope no go with the NI libraries, where do I find the agilent ones ?

    I am downloading the rigol ultrascope(visa) so maybe some hope ? only thing I'm wondering is can they rewrite ultrascope to tamper with the scopes we have "upgraded" to make them into what they were again ?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Michael on March 21, 2010, 05:10:59 pm
    Simon , i just tried it on a clean win7 x64. The NiVisa runtime works.
    I've downloaded visa441runtime.exe and only installed the usb part during custom install.

    I found that the usb driver is supplied with win7 (propably vista too).
    You just need the attached .inf file to make windows show the Rigol as
    'Usb test and measurement device'.
    But i fail to register visa32.dll ... i don't want to install this 40MB runtime package just to talk to my scope :(
    Any ideas anyone?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 21, 2010, 05:25:44 pm
    hm I just ran the default setup
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Rodan on March 22, 2010, 08:18:35 pm
    I'm running Win7 64bit. To make it work, I downloaded visa420full.exe from NI's website. It launched fine, and worked like a charm. I was able to easily send the necessary commands. Also, apparently you don't even have to use a real serial, just the proper prefix is all that is needed. Or at least it worked for me, it has been working great for several days now.

    edit: The reason i downloaded the 4.2 version is that it was small, and if it worked in VIsta it would work in 7 most likely. Also, with 7 I didn't need a driver. I plugged the scope in before I installed any software and it found it, and it worked.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Rodan on March 23, 2010, 05:29:40 am
    Just for kicks I tried Visa 4.6.2 and it also works fine.

    As a side note, since upgrading to 100MHz has anyone experienced any weirdnesses with calibrating the probes that came with the unit? After going to 100MHz unless I turn BW Limit on when I calibrate the probes, I get a very jumpy square wave that won't lock on using auto acquire, or even manually trying for that matter. ???

    My guess is since the BW has increased to beyond 100MHz, it is picking up some very high order harmonics or some interference from the rudimentary square wave generator built into the scope and causing the scope to trigger improperly. As a test I tried using some 60MHz probes I had laying around for another scope, and they don't exhibit this problem. I also never experienced this problem until I modded to 100MHz. Oh, well I just thought it was an interesting problem and also shows that the BW must have increased.

    Does the DS1102 come with the same probes? If so, does it have this goofy behavior when trying to calibrate the probes?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 23, 2010, 06:05:24 am
    Rodan,
    > Does the DS1102 come with the same probes? <

    Same as what?  ;)  What's the partID on your probes?  I.e., RPxxxx.  I think the 1102E's ship with RP1300's (rated 300 MHz @10x).  I got RP3200's with my DS1102CD (rated 350 MHz).

    BTW, the Cal output is only 1 kHz, so I'd be surprised if it had significant harmonics beyond 100 MHz.  Stick your probe on there, and run the FFT on it.

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on March 23, 2010, 06:36:34 am
    I have some of both DS1102E and DS1052E's. Both models come to me in Rigol original factory packages. All both models have RP2200 (rated as 150MHz @ 10:1)

    I have make parallel tests with commandmodified machines (no hw mod). original 1102 modified to 1052 and original 1052 modified to 1102. No other differencies but normal variations between individual units. Differencies are not markable between individual units, normal (maybe) random small differencies. All units are arrived FW020202.

    I have not see any difference in probe cal output after mod.

    Allways remember run selfcal after modification. (after 30minute warm up and nothing connected to any scope I/O)

    My opinion is that problem is now somewhere else than mod itself... but also there need be careful with opinions becouse there are slight product variations and different HW revisions...

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 23, 2010, 07:42:00 am
    Just for kicks I tried Visa 4.6.2 and it also works fine.

    As a side note, since upgrading to 100MHz has anyone experienced any weirdnesses with calibrating the probes that came with the unit? After going to 100MHz unless I turn BW Limit on when I calibrate the probes, I get a very jumpy square wave that won't lock on using auto acquire, or even manually trying for that matter. ???

    My guess is since the BW has increased to beyond 100MHz, it is picking up some very high order harmonics or some interference from the rudimentary square wave generator built into the scope and causing the scope to trigger improperly. As a test I tried using some 60MHz probes I had laying around for another scope, and they don't exhibit this problem. I also never experienced this problem until I modded to 100MHz. Oh, well I just thought it was an interesting problem and also shows that the BW must have increased.

    Does the DS1102 come with the same probes? If so, does it have this goofy behavior when trying to calibrate the probes?

    the DS1052 probes are rated at 150 MHz, I've had the same calibrating problem but I beleive i may have had it before as well, could be a burnt out generator ? maybe retry with a 555 generated signal ?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: bushing on March 24, 2010, 03:15:18 am
    The firmware images don't appear to be signed, so they could be modified easily

    I wouldn't be so sure.
    Oh, don't worry, I'm rarely sure of anything :)   I did later amend some of this to reflect some uncertainty -- https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=30.msg2824#msg2824

    Quote
    Quote
    There's no room for a hash, so you could do whatever you want to the file.

    There's no room for a hash in the header, but that desn't mean that one (or a CRC) isn't embedded in the firmware images, to detect corruption or tampering.
    [

    "Hash" was a poor choice of words on my part.  There's no obvious sign of a cryptographic signature, or a hash, or even a CRC.  The former would be the only real form of protection that would let them "fix" the problem -- the latter two could be reversed, given enough time and energy.

    I've yet to see a system that used hashes or signatures that didn't have them in a fairly obvious spot.  Especially if there's a nice header with other metadata.   Doesn't mean it couldn't happen, but I find it unlikely.

    Quote
    Quote
    Unfortunately, this means that there's no sort of bootloader which could recover corrupted firmware, so your options would be to desolder the NOR flash holding the firmware and reprogram it using a chip programmer, or try to get the 13-pin JTAG-looking connector working.

    Actually, there IS a bootloader in the BlackFins, in protected space.  But I doubt it would have the ability to read files off a USB stick.  So in that sense, you may be right that once corrupted software was loaded, recovery would be difficult.

    OR, they may have a dual-image system, where they can load a 2nd set of firmware into the other half of Flash, but not toggle control over to it until it had been successfully validated.  Otherwise, once they started a reflash cycle, they'd have to blow away the original firmware first.  From which point there'd be no recovery on power fail or by the time it knew the image it loaded was bad.

    That could explain how they utilize 8 MB of Spansion Flash, when the firmware only occupies 4 MB.  And during operation, the remaining 4 MB can be scratchpad space (like 1 MB for Reference waveform memory, as Andreas and Drieg pointed out).

    I was just plain wrong about the bootloader.  There are at least two, one of which has me mystified:
    1) There's the BlackFin standard bootloader, the one you're referring to.  It can boot from a NOR flash (or other external memory), or a SPI master, or a SPI slave, depending on strapping.  (Ref: http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/data_sheets/ADSP-BF531_BF532_BF533.pdf page 14)
    2) There is an unknown mystery second-stage bootloader somewhere.  BMODE1 is tied hard to Vcc, and BMODE0 is pulled low with a resistor, which means that the BF is acting as a SPI slave, and being fed code from some unknown place over SPI.  It's possible the entire firmware is loaded over SPI, but it doesn't seem likely to me (not in the normal boot case).   That being said, I can't find any place where that could be coming from -- nothing looks like a SPI flash, and 15 minutes of poking around with a DMM didn't find anything connected to the SPI lines except for the edge connector.   The only place I can think that they might even be possibly hiding it would be the Lattice CPLD, but I couldn't find any connections between the BF's SPI bus and the Lattice chip.

    I think that that second-stage bootloader is probably fairly small, and it probably loads the rest of the firmware from the NOR flash.   I don't know why they bother doing this, instead of booting from the NOR flash directly -- they could be doing some sort of verification in there, but my gut feeling says they're not.   The SPI lines (as well as BMODE0 and PF2 aka SSEL) are run out to an edge connector right next to the I2C EEPROM, and I believe this is what is used in the factory to load the initial firmware onto the device.  These same SPI lines should be what carries the normal bootloader, but I haven't had a chance to open my scope back up and watch those lines with an LA -- if anyone else does that, I'd love to hear about it, because now it's bugging me. :)

    The dual-image idea doesn't seem very likely to me either -- but at this point, I'm just guessing because I have nothing to go on and am too much of a coward to risk bricking my scope to prove a point :(
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: opus131 on March 24, 2010, 04:08:24 am
     I bought a DS1052E in December after seeing Dave's eevblog about the Fluke 87-V meter - the DS1052E is in that blog.
    I am really pleased to have found this thread. I found KTP's summary in #349 of the software method helpful.  I had
    successfully used "echo" and "cat" on /dev/usbmtc0 to send "*IDN?", but I didn't like the timeout messages that
    accompanied reading usbmtc0. I have a dual serial port PCI card in my gnu/linux computer and I connected ttyS0 to the
    DSO using various adapters and an LED monitor I built about 25 years ago. Then I searched for a decent terminal
    emulator since I find using "echo" and "cat" quaintly archaic, and never did find "seyon" easy to use.  I found a very nice
    one called "CuteCom", as easy as
    $ sudo apt-get install cutecom  or rather, on my ubuntu system,
    # apt-get install cutecom
     CuteCom can be configured to send only a line feed and I was soon ready to send the commands to change the
    DSO version and then serial number.  I used my own serial number with the second "D" in it changed to a "B".
    It was great seeing the 2 ns grid resolution on the horizontal scale and the system information showing DS1102E.

     Today I did some bandwidth tests.
    I used my FT-817 amateur bands radio transceiver on its half Watt setting at 146.52 MHz and sent a carrier
    through a 50 ohm attenuator so that a lab grade power meter could show the actual power out of the attenuator.
    That measurement showed 6.4 dBm.  Next I used a precision 50 ohm dummy load in a T connector right on the
    channel one BNC connector. With the probe setting to x1 in the DSO, I measured a peak-to-peak voltage of
    1030 millivolts, which across 50 ohms implies 4.2 dBm. The DSO loss is then 2.2 dB at 146.52 MHz.
    Setting the probe to x10 and putting the RP2200 probe into the same T connector and load with the same cable
    from the attenuator, I measured 800 mV p-p corresponding to 2.0 dBm. This means that the combination of probe
    and DSO drops 4.4 dB, implying that the probe itself also drops 2.2 dB.
      I do not plan to to change back to a DS1052E and do the measurements again.

    This modification shows that this manufacturer doesn't enhance the circuitry for the higher specification DSO -
    it appears to pass on the cost of a low pass filter to all customers and commits sabotage in the firmware.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 24, 2010, 07:46:52 am
    hey could ultrascope work over the com port ? after the money spent on the cable and time modding it I may as well use if if it's simpler, wait in the mean time for rigol to get serious about vista/7
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: mxmxmx on March 24, 2010, 02:49:06 pm
    hey could ultrascope work over the com port ? after the money spent on the cable and time modding it I may as well use if if it's simpler, wait in the mean time for rigol to get serious about vista/7

    Yes, Ultrascope also works over the RS232 connection. However, I'm not sure if you need a working VISA installation for that as well.

    Anyway, I still fail to see the problem. Install any VISA implementation which supports your OS (e.g. Agilent IO Libraries, NI Visa), plug in your scope via USB and run Ultrascope. I had no problem at all doing that under Windows Vista x64, so I don't suspect Windows 7 to be any different. Given the fact that Rigol made their scopes compliant to the USB Test and Measurement Class (TMC), I don't see why they need to bother to "get serious about vista/7".
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 24, 2010, 02:56:08 pm
    well mine plain refuses, might be something to do with the fact that I may need to track down the original driver and get rid of it. I have the RS232 cable and I don't think drivers are required so might as well give it a go
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: JimBeam on March 25, 2010, 02:36:30 pm
    Some more traces:

    Generator: Wavetek 1855-600
    - lin. sweep
    - output: 55 dbmV nominal

    Scope: DS1052E(mod)
    - peak det. on
    - 75 Ohm BNC T-Termination
    - probe erroneously set to 1:10 - thus 5V/div...

    1) Sweep 2..100 MHz
    2) Sweep 100..200 MHz
    3) Sweep 2..200 MHz
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: darkith on March 27, 2010, 01:34:42 pm
    Been on the market for a new scope (my poorly calibrated 20mhz analog's pots and switches are getting spotty).  I had looked at the Rigol C or D series previously, but held off.
    Course, when I saw this, I had to act (before Rigol updates the firmware or releases a new model).  Picked up my 1052E from MIB Tools for a bit over $400 USD shipped EMS to Canada.  Arrived last night.  Had no DB9-DB9 serial cable on hand since all I had were DB25s.  Gave up on finding one, scavenged a few old serial mice and put together a 3-wire serial cable.

    Now enjoying my DS1102E. 
    Thanks all,
    D.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: mountaindude on March 28, 2010, 08:08:30 pm
    ...
    Picked up my 1052E from MIB Tools for a bit over $400 USD shipped EMS to Canada.  Arrived last night. 
    ...

    Anyone else have any experiences with MIB Tools to share? Just had a look at their site - doesn't say what currency the prices are in... If it's Hong Kong dollars the prices are almost too good - any catches?

    Thx
    G
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2010, 12:00:36 am
    Crikey, it'll take me ages to go through all these back posts and stuff!
    Anyone got a pointer to the exact method used?

    Thanks
    Dave.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: darkith on March 29, 2010, 01:00:39 am
    KTP's summary is pretty good:
    https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=30.msg3010#msg3010
    3-wire serial at 9600.

    Note that you can use your serial number, just change DS1EDxxx to DS1EBxxx

    D.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: darkith on March 29, 2010, 01:13:50 am
    ...
    Picked up my 1052E from MIB Tools for a bit over $400 USD shipped EMS to Canada.  Arrived last night. 
    ...

    Anyone else have any experiences with MIB Tools to share? Just had a look at their site - doesn't say what currency the prices are in... If it's Hong Kong dollars the prices are almost too good - any catches?

    Thx
    G

    No way are those prices HKD.  The $549 on the website is probably the same list price as the $549 USD but it now on ebay.  I'd *strongly* suggest emailing them directly for a better price or making an offer through ebay.  They were pretty quick to match DealExtreme's EMS shipping price (which according to a forum post has been out of stock or slow to ship for a while).  They also sweetened the deal with a free gift...a USB card reader.  Wheeeeee.....  :P

    Cheers,
    D.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: EEVblog on March 29, 2010, 02:41:08 am
    Dave has taken a break, he posted a note in the "Announcements" forum saying he's going walkabout for a while.  I'm sure the deluge of e-mails and consistent output of quality video blogs has been taxing his time for a while now!

    Yea, but that was on the 9th he has posted a new video blog on the 16th so i assumed he was back.

    I had already filmed and uploaded the last drive-time one before I went away. I just logged in via my phone for a few minutes while on holiday and made it live :)
    Keen viewers would have already found ways to find it back on the 9th.

    I should have filmed a couple more episodes before I went and progressively released them, then no one would have known I was gone!

    Dave.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: jakent on March 29, 2010, 06:02:19 am
    I went ahead and ordered from DealExtreme.  They appear to be rolling out the DS1052E on schedule at the moment.

    I ordered on March 23rd with EMS and got shipping confirmation on the 26th.  It should be on a plane headed towards the US very shortly (today?) according to the tracking information.

    I'm looking forward to replacing my ancient B+K 1474 30 MHz scope that requires percussive force to operate properly. ;)  Thank you all.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: JasperNL on March 29, 2010, 05:00:56 pm
    I went ahead and ordered from DealExtreme.  They appear to be rolling out the DS1052E on schedule at the moment.

    I ordered on March 23rd with EMS and got shipping confirmation on the 26th.  It should be on a plane headed towards the US very shortly (today?) according to the tracking information.

    I'm looking forward to replacing my ancient B+K 1474 30 MHz scope that requires percussive force to operate properly. ;)  Thank you all.

    Are you sure the package is heading towards you? I ordered mine DS1052E from DealExtreme a month ago and it is still out of stock according to the status. It think your status will change to out of stock in a couple of days :(
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: xoom on March 29, 2010, 05:19:37 pm
    from DX this scope is out of stock ? :((( im planning to order it in April.. let me know what situation is now
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 29, 2010, 05:31:00 pm
    Dave has taken a break, he posted a note in the "Announcements" forum saying he's going walkabout for a while.  I'm sure the deluge of e-mails and consistent output of quality video blogs has been taxing his time for a while now!

    Yea, but that was on the 9th he has posted a new video blog on the 16th so i assumed he was back.

    I had already filmed and uploaded the last drive-time one before I went away. I just logged in via my phone for a few minutes while on holiday and made it live :)
    Keen viewers would have already found ways to find it back on the 9th.

    I should have filmed a couple more episodes before I went and progressively released them, then no one would have known I was gone!

    Dave.

    well your absence in commenting on the fury surrounding the easy of hacking the scope made people wonder
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: jakent on March 29, 2010, 06:37:38 pm
    Are you sure the package is heading towards you? I ordered mine DS1052E from DealExtreme a month ago and it is still out of stock according to the status. It think your status will change to out of stock in a couple of days :(

    I'm as sure as I can be, the package was last in Shenzhen, China.  Only the DS1052E was put on this particular order.

    Perhaps the Chinese New Year/Spring Festival caused your order to be overlooked?  Things get quite hectic and slow around that time.  This year it fell between Feb 13 to the 19th.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: JasperNL on March 30, 2010, 10:25:53 am
     :o...... DealExtreme >:(
    The last time I contacted DE they promised me that the package will be shipped ASAP.
    But again nothing happend, time to mail again I guess......
    Service is very bad, they answer your questions always a week later. And the response you get is useless. Very annoying!   

     
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: EEVblog on March 30, 2010, 11:28:24 am
    Just modded mine, and yep, it works!
    Guess what the next blog is going to be about...

    Dave.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 30, 2010, 11:32:23 am
    Rigol will get Hit men after you  ;D
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: anli on March 30, 2010, 11:52:22 am
    Can anybody suggest a hint where to dig in the hack for other RIGOL model sries (DS1022C at my case)? I have tried the same commands, but, say, :INFO:MODEL? returns nothing, :IO:TEST someText doesn't echo. Connection is OK (say, *IDN? and :INFO:SERIAL? do work).
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 30, 2010, 11:56:07 am
    what type of serial cable are you using ? have you followed the rigol manual for connecting the scope to a pc terminal ?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: darkith on March 30, 2010, 12:08:56 pm
    Can anybody suggest a hint where to dig in the hack for other RIGOL model sries (DS1022C at my case)? I have tried the same commands, but, say, :INFO:MODEL? returns nothing, :IO:TEST someText doesn't echo. Connection is OK (say, *IDN? and :INFO:SERIAL? do work).

    This was all made possible by the "hidden commands" that "mxmxmx" found in the DS1000E firmware (see http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=663958&page=49#post13549739)

    It sounds like he parsed through a firmware file for the acceptable commands, either through just searching for strings, or actually dis-assembling the binary.  You could try that, but there's no guarantee that the DS1000C series used the same method to select model...ie. it could have been done in hardware instead.

    D.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: anli on March 30, 2010, 12:09:39 pm
    I'm under Linux, have used USB connection and Python script as decribed here:

    http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=663958&page=14
    http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=663958&page=17

    with installed usbtmc kernel driver.

    As I have said, other commands do work without any problems, say

    Code: [Select]
    $ ./rq.py '*IDN?'
    SEND *IDN?
    RECV RIGOL TECHNOLOGIES,DS1022C,DS1022xxxxxxxxx,03.07.01
    RIGOL TECHNOLOGIES,DS1022C,DS1022xxxxxxxxx,03.07.01

    $ ./rq.py ':DISPLAY:SCREEN?'
    SEND :DISPLAY:SCREEN?
    RECV NORMAL
    NORMAL

    Red "Rmt" lable exists, DSO listens to and executes commands as expected (:RUN, :STOP, and so on).
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on March 30, 2010, 12:29:14 pm
    Day ago I get new DS1052E from China.
    Command modification did NOT work as before!
    I have try with many variations how to do.

    With these units what I have before all goes ok.

    I have not yet find solution with these new. If I try as before, display go sometimes "black" and only button what make anything is power ON/OFF. After this scope continues as DS1052E (serial number it (sometimes) keep as I type it, but it return to 1052). Some times there is only white random scratch over model number row from left to right over display.) One time it was totally difficult to return so that system display was ok.

    FW with these new are exactly same 020202

    Only difference what I can see is different start of serial number after letters. (first 4 digits... maybe these are some "prefix" what indicate some product revisions?

    So I think we need continue more public discussions to push factory make good stop for modifications. We can teach them to do hack proof scopes. Maybe they make nearly "waterproof" next revision. (or this what I have now is just this)

    ----------
    Do NOT try try this modification with RS232 communication if you do not really know how to do this kind of RS232 communication what works perfect. It need work perfect in HW level and it must do without any mistake in data. If you are not really sure how to do reliable trustworth and robust serial connection do not even try. You may seriously damage your oscilloscope. Remember: this use undocumented commands! fail in data may damage your machine nearly as permanently.

    Before you do anything with undocumented commands you need (minimum) be sure that communication have no any kind error what may product unwanted transmitted data inside oscilloscope.

    Also do not trust Windows/PC RS232 port. It may be out of specifications by many meanings even with voltage levels.
    Any missing, extra or wrong data may damage your scope with these undocumented commands.


    This is only one small example about RS232 problems with PC and Microsoft (not related to this mod but related to RS232 many kind of possible problems with today computers. (In TTY time it was different):

    http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=131609&nid=-35204.0.00&id=131609

    "Problems Using RS-232 on Agilent Instruments with Laptop PCs running any Microsoft OS
    Symptoms: Timeouts, corrupt data, missing data, error messages while uploading data
    "
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: anli on March 30, 2010, 12:29:50 pm
    It sounds like he parsed through a firmware file for the acceptable commands, either through just searching for strings, or actually dis-assembling the binary.  You could try that, but there's no guarantee that the DS1000C series used the same method to select model...ie. it could have been done in hardware instead.

    D.
    I have tried to find something MODEL-related - the only fragment with "model" (case-insensitive context) is:

    Code: [Select]
    DS1102CD    DS1062CD    DS1042CD    DS1022CD    DS1102C DS1062C
    DS1042C DS1022C DS1102MD    DS1062MD    DS1042MD    DS1022MD   
    DS1102M DS1062M DS1042M DS1022M DS-5110 DS-5106 DS-5104 DS-5102
    Parameter  Trig_Level_K    Trig_Level_M     Gain_A_K1   Gain_A_K2   Gain_B_K1   
    Gain_B_K2  Offset_1_A  Offset_1_K  Offset_1_M  Offset_2_A  Offset_2_K  Offset_2_M
    ADC_Offset  ADC_A_Offset_1  ADC_B_Offset_1  ADC_A_Offset_2  ADC_B_Offset_2  %6.1f
    CH1   %6d   EXT    EXT5     CH2   Trig_Sens_A     =%6.1f  Trig_Sens_K EquMin  =%d
    EquTrigDelay    RealTrigDelay   RealTrigOffset  Saving...   %s  SERVICE  Model SerialID
    Save   Clear  Power Up     1/2     2/2     System Parameter     Color   About InterploatorScale
    Press 'Stop' key to Exit    Press 'AUTO' key to load Default Value  Press 'STOP' key to Exit
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: darkith on March 30, 2010, 01:42:33 pm
    Day ago I get new DS1052E from China.
    Command modification did NOT work as before!
    I have try with many variations how to do.

    With these units what I have before all goes ok.

    I have not yet find solution with these new. If I try as before, display go sometimes "black" and only button what make anything is power ON/OFF. After this scope continues as DS1052E (serial number it (sometimes) keep as I type it, but it return to 1052). Some times there is only white random scratch over model number row from left to right over display.) One time it was totally difficult to return so that system display was ok.

    FW with these new are exactly same 020202

    Only difference what I can see is different start of serial number after letters. (first 4 digits... maybe these are some "prefix" what indicate some product revisions?

    So I think we need continue more public discussions to push factory make good stop for modifications. We can teach them to do hack proof scopes. Maybe they make nearly "waterproof" next revision. (or this what I have now is just this)

    Wow, are you saying that Rigol has already locked down this hack?  That's pretty quick!

    Things that might be worth trying:
    -Using a completely valid old DS1102E style serial (think somebody posted one earlier)
    -Trying to get hold of a brand-new DS1102E and see what serial they are using now (maybe they just changed the pattern the firmware checks for)

    Glad I got my scope shipped from a vendor that had stock on hand.  I'd be careful of ordering from any supplier that might use "directly-from-factory" supply.

    D.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on March 30, 2010, 01:56:42 pm
    " Wow, are you saying that Rigol has already locked down this hack?"
    Not exactly.

    Maybe this situation is not (yet) related to hack, maybe it is related only to product revision.
    (also I do not believe that this hack is first known outside China. ;) 
     
    ..... but maybe they have not so open mouth...)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: darkith on March 30, 2010, 02:05:30 pm
    " Wow, are you saying that Rigol has already locked down this hack?"
    Not exactly.

    Maybe this situation is not (yet) related to hack, maybe it is related only to product revision.
    (also I do not believe that this hack is first known outside China. ;) 
     
    ..... but maybe they have not so open mouth...)


    Laff, gotcha.  Makes sense that it would have been found earlier but kept closely guarded, since some Chinese middlemen have a talent for, shall we say "optimizing the value of goods before reselling them"  :)
    Wonder where I could get a DS1102E label to make the front of my scope match it's capabilities....

    Have you tried replacing the entire serial with a known-good, older-style DS1102E serial?

    D.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 30, 2010, 05:01:24 pm
    I would think all known 1102 serials have been blocked in the new versions, it is obvious that rigol saw this thread and other mentions on the net pretty quickly, and I'm sure  blocking this hack was simple: just remove the model changing commands from the command set, clearly this was an easy way of choosing later what the scope would be, now they probably have to Flash two different versions of the firmware to the scopes to make the choice ie: it is preobably now hard coded. Perhaps copying the firmware of a 1102 to a 1052 would get around that but then they could put something in like the bios to prevent it being accepted. suerely at some point a new hack will be found but it wil be a case of how far one is willing to go to carry out the mod
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 30, 2010, 05:34:50 pm
    Just modded mine, and yep, it works!
    Guess what the next blog is going to be about...

    Nothing subtle about you, Dave.  :o  Are you planning on rubbing their nose in it, like you did with the "caught with their pants down" incident?  I'm sure that had them ROTF at Rigol HQ.

    While you're at it, perhaps you should point out that this really turns the DS1052E into a 150 MHz scope.  If you look at the rise-time results posted by flolic and rf-loop, and sweep tests by Andreas (JimBeam), the performance of the modded units (as well as the stock DS1102E's) definitely meets 150 MHz spec criteria.  (down 3 dB at 160+ MHz, risetimes <2 nS)  Also, the gain flatness is good (i.e., uniform rolloff, with no peaks and valleys, -4.5 dB at 200 MHz).

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 30, 2010, 05:48:55 pm
    (also I do not believe that this hack is first known outside China. ;)  
    ..... but maybe they have not so open mouth...)

    I agree.

    Everyone here seems to want to publicize this in the most public way possible.  Even flaunting it in "reviews" on the Hong Kong websites, with links back to here.  Thus forcing Rigol to take action.  There's lots of things they could do, but I'm not going to enumerate them here, because I don't want to give them any good ideas.  (I work on embedded systems.)

    I can understand sharing the good fortune with others, that came from Rigol "leaving the back door open".  Security through obscurity (undocumented commands) is never a good idea.  And many could have benefitted (even Rigol).  But I'm not sure why so many are hell bent on turning this into a "Once upon a time..." story, as soon as possible.  It just seems very immature to me.

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: darkith on March 30, 2010, 05:51:10 pm
    I would think all known 1102 serials have been blocked in the new versions, it is obvious that rigol saw this thread and other mentions on the net pretty quickly, and I'm sure  blocking this hack was simple: just remove the model changing commands from the command set, clearly this was an easy way of choosing later what the scope would be, now they probably have to Flash two different versions of the firmware to the scopes to make the choice ie: it is preobably now hard coded. Perhaps copying the firmware of a 1102 to a 1052 would get around that but then they could put something in like the bios to prevent it being accepted. suerely at some point a new hack will be found but it wil be a case of how far one is willing to go to carry out the mod

    Mmm.  Possibly.  But rf-loop's message seems to suggest that the commands would run, but they just wouldn't "stick".  He said that the serial number sometimes changed, but the model reverted to 1052 or got glitchy, which sounds like previous experiences where people were inputting the commands in the opposite order didn't get them in correctly and the firmware didn't like the mismatched model config.  

    I don't know if they'd waste flash space with a list of blacklisted serials....they might change the algorithm (which may be what happened) or just lock out the capability, either remove the commands entirely, or make them "one-time" use only, so that they'd still only need one firmware, and just program them whichever way.

    I wonder if perhaps the "model check" based upon the serial number was more sophisticated than just checking the one digit out of the prefix, and newer scopes with a different prefix need more than one character changed?  That's why I'm wondering if the older style serials would work, if as rf-loop suggested it's just a running change and not an actual countermeasure.  

    If they did change the verification algorithm, it could be an interesting headache. That would make upgrading existing scopes (hacked or not) tricky/impossible.  And I wonder if the old firmware could be flashed onto these newer scopes.  I'm sure the dedicated "re-badgers" would work quite hard at restoring this capability (thought they would probably keep it secret again).

    Ahh well, all speculation.  Though it does make me very curious...  :)

    D.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 30, 2010, 06:06:58 pm
    Can anybody suggest a hint where to dig in the hack for other RIGOL model sries (DS1022C at my case)? I have tried the same commands, but, say, :INFO:MODEL? returns nothing, :IO:TEST someText doesn't echo. Connection is OK (say, *IDN? and :INFO:SERIAL? do work).

    This was all made possible by the "hidden commands" that "mxmxmx" found in the DS1000E firmware (see http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=663958&page=49#post13549739)

    It sounds like he parsed through a firmware file for the acceptable commands, either through just searching for strings, or actually dis-assembling the binary.  You could try that, but there's no guarantee that the DS1000C series used the same method to select model...ie. it could have been done in hardware instead.

    Anli,

    "Can anybody suggest a hint".  mxmxmx found the undocumented commands using a simple string search utility.  I've done the same thing myself.  It's not very hard.

    Unfortunately for you, those commands do not exist in the earlier C-series Rigols.  That was a "clever" addition they made to the E and D-series units.  There is no command to either read out or write in a MODEL string on your (older) unit.  So you're not going to turn lead into gold with a SCPI command.  Sorry.

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 30, 2010, 06:23:32 pm
    I would think all known 1102 serials have been blocked in the new versions

    You might think that, but you'd be wrong.

    Quote
    I'm sure  blocking this hack was simple: just remove the model changing commands from the command set

    And wrong again.  No need to remove any commands.

    Quote
    they probably have to Flash two different versions of the firmware to the scopes to make the choice ie: it is preobably now hard coded.

    Nope.

    Quote
    Perhaps copying the firmware of a 1102 to a 1052 would get around that

    Nope.  (That info isn't stored in the firmware.)

    Quote
    suerely at some point a new hack will be found but it wil be a case of how far one is willing to go to carry out the mod

    Maybe.  But certainly not "surely".

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 30, 2010, 06:29:06 pm
    I would think all known 1102 serials have been blocked in the new versions

    You might think that, but you'd be wrong.

    Quote
    I'm sure  blocking this hack was simple: just remove the model changing commands from the command set

    And wrong again.  No need to remove any commands.

    Quote
    they probably have to Flash two different versions of the firmware to the scopes to make the choice ie: it is preobably now hard coded.

    Nope.

    Quote
    Perhaps copying the firmware of a 1102 to a 1052 would get around that

    Nope.  (That info isn't stored in the firmware.)

    Quote
    suerely at some point a new hack will be found but it wil be a case of how far one is willing to go to carry out the mod

    Maybe.  But certainly not "surely".

    - Mark


    I'm not software expert but I can see how easy the mod was (even I managed it), i'm sure rigol can come up with something more substantial if they put their minds to it
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 30, 2010, 06:34:32 pm
    I don't know if they'd... they might change... or just lock out...  I wonder if perhaps...

    If they did change... it could be an interesting headache. That would make upgrading existing scopes (hacked or not) tricky/impossible. And I wonder if ...
    Ahh well, all speculation. Though it does make me very curious...

    Yes, curious indeed.  

    Now that the "secret" is out, and being broadcast worldwide, I suggest we turn our discussions to possible ways that Rigol could lock these types of hacks out.  As we come up with each idea for a potential lock, we can look for ways to circumvent it.  Really put our minds to it.  Once we have come up with a methodology that is impervious to hacking, then we can e-mail that to Rigol Engineering.  That will save them a lot of time and trouble implementing weaker solutions.   ::)

    I'm not trying to pick on you, darkith.  Just pointing out that public speculation on issues like this are unlikely to be helpful to us in the long run.

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 30, 2010, 06:43:17 pm
    I'm not software expert...

    Agreed.

    Quote
    but I can see how easy the mod was (even I managed it)

    You're joking, right?  It was obvious AND easy, in the end, but that didn't stop you from being baffled and delay your "upgrade" for a long time, while you played the "thousand question game".

    Quote
    i'm sure rigol can come up with something more substantial if they put their minds to it

    Oh, absolutely!  Nothing in my comments should be construed otherwise.  They won't even need to think that hard.  I was just pointing out that none of your ideas made any sense.  ;)

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 30, 2010, 06:57:10 pm
    So I think we need continue more public discussions to push factory make good stop for modifications. We can teach them to do hack proof scopes. Maybe they make nearly "waterproof" next revision. (or this what I have now is just this)

    Exactly!  Now that's what I'm talking about.  :)

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: darkith on March 30, 2010, 07:18:39 pm

    I'm not trying to pick on you, darkith.  Just pointing out that public speculation on issues like this are unlikely to be helpful to us in the long run.

    - Mark


    Heck, I should be flattered that you think my speculation is dangerous enough to be unhelpful in the long run.
    But, IMHO, the cat is already well out of the bag, and has long left the area.  So, I figured a little speculation on what could be a Mark2 bag (now with kevlar thread?) shouldn't be too harmful.  If Rigol has any decent developers (and they must to have produced a pretty decent scope), they'll quickly realize (or have) the folly of "security through obscurity" and would be smart enough to come up with a reasonable fix to this hack. 

    The really annoying thing about this sort of hack is that it's almost a lose-lose.  Spread the information (and in today's age, it'll spread far and wide quickly) and the company will disable it sooner or later.  Keep it secret, and only a handful of privileged people "in the know" will find out about it, and the big abusers will be the shady companies who will buy 1052Es and re-sell them as 1102Es with a new sticker on them.

    Similar things happen with the copy-protection/anti-mod hacks on the game consoles (Xboxes, Wiis, etc).

    D.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: mlaargh on March 30, 2010, 08:38:28 pm
    Day ago I get new DS1052E from China.
    Command modification did NOT work as before!

    Man, that makes me nervous... Did you get yours from DealExtreme? I have one sitting in US customs right now that I ordered through them last Monday. Hopefully my unit will be in the clear! Anyone else have pending deliveries or problems upgrading?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 30, 2010, 09:21:25 pm


    Quote
    but I can see how easy the mod was (even I managed it)

    You're joking, right?  It was obvious AND easy, in the end, but that didn't stop you from being baffled and delay your "upgrade" for a long time, while you played the "thousand question game".

    Yes and what I'm saying is, I'm no expert in software stuff, for me software/computers + electronics never did mix well, i'm taking my baby steps in pic programming and thst is only because of the wonders of BASIC because i was stomped on assembler for a couple of years. So even with my teething problems i managed it and what I say is in hind sight I can say it was easy, after all I have never used a serial port before or a com terminal, Half my problem was just no beleiving it could be so simple, and not being in touch with terminology mixed with a fear of corupting my scope for good (you know that machine I spent a "fortune" on I could never fork out again - my dad told me i was nuts spending that amount of money). By easy I also mean it was so easy to hack I'm truly amazed that Rigol made a slip like that.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: oleg on March 30, 2010, 09:47:50 pm
    Day ago I get new DS1052E from China.
    Command modification did NOT work as before!

    Man, that makes me nervous... Did you get yours from DealExtreme? I have one sitting in US customs right now that I ordered through them last Monday. Hopefully my unit will be in the clear! Anyone else have pending deliveries or problems upgrading?

    I got mine today from DealExtreme (ordered it on March 16th - it took ages in customs). 10 minutes ago I "converted" my scope just fine using echo on a linux machine (karmic). At first the model and then the serial number (I just replaced D with B). So no problems here.

    oleg
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: mlaargh on March 30, 2010, 09:56:24 pm
    Good to hear.  I'll let you guys know how it goes when mine comes through.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: infinitybit on March 30, 2010, 10:39:36 pm
    I ordered mine today from Saelig.  It already shows as shipped so it must have come from local inventory.  Hopefully they don't get shipments from China very frequently.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: ChrisNYC on March 31, 2010, 12:38:14 am
    I ordered mine today from Saelig.  It already shows as shipped so it must have come from local inventory.  Hopefully they don't get shipments from China very frequently.

    Not sure about Saelig, but if your scope is being drop shipped from Ohio, it is probably being shipped directly from Rigol NA. Hopefully that wont matter yet if it is.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: EEVblog on March 31, 2010, 01:03:56 am
    Day ago I get new DS1052E from China.
    Command modification did NOT work as before!
    I have try with many variations how to do.

    With these units what I have before all goes ok.

    I have not yet find solution with these new. If I try as before, display go sometimes "black" and only button what make anything is power ON/OFF. After this scope continues as DS1052E (serial number it (sometimes) keep as I type it, but it return to 1052). Some times there is only white random scratch over model number row from left to right over display.) One time it was totally difficult to return so that system display was ok.

    I saw the exact same thing happen on my unit at first.
    It changed the serial number ok, but the model number reverted back to the old 1052E.
    I think it had something to do with me accidentally pressing an extra serial key between entering the info in. But when I did it exactly as shown in my video it worked fine several times. So it does seem a bit "touchy" with the command sequence used.

    Dave.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rossmoffett on March 31, 2010, 01:54:24 am
    Hey Dave, thanks for giving credit and breaking it down for everyone in your video.

    I actually brought up this hack in a job interview recently to prove I understood measurement instruments and it raised a few eyebrows.  

    Rigol might indeed change their firmware.. In any case, the hardware hack is pretty simple too, so I'd like to re-iterate that in the case that they do fix the software mod then the hardware hack will still be valid, I doubt they'll totally re-design that aspect of the scope or ditch their whole business model of selling two models.. it just wouldn't make sense.  I think that mostly anybody is capable of replacing the disabled bandwidth limit inside the oscilloscope with their own external circuit.

    I bet they're selling the crap out of them now, so who knows if they care about this at all really!  Everybody knows that serious (commercial) customers won't be using hacked scopes professionally, so that just leaves a huge spike in sales to the hobbyist market.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on March 31, 2010, 04:50:39 am
    Did you get yours from DealExtreme?

    No.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 31, 2010, 05:12:42 am
    ...the hardware hack is pretty simple too, so I'd like to re-iterate that in the case that they do fix the software mod then the hardware hack will still be valid...

    Ross, you've mentioned that before, and I agree completely that there really is no practical way to stop people from modding the hardware.  So in that sense, this will always be available.

    However, disassembling, modding, and reassembling a unit, while not inordinately difficult, is much more work than sending 2 SCPI commands.  And therefore, fewer people will be inclined to do so as a result.  And secondly, the hardware hack gets you the extra bandwidth performance, but doesn't convert the unit into a full 1102E, like the software hack does (timebase down to 2 nS, etc.).  So the software hack is preferable in that sense too.

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: EEVblog on March 31, 2010, 09:28:10 am
    A little birdie has told me that Rigol have already fixed the firmware to stop the hack, from at least the latest version 2.04, and possibly before that. It does not let you change the model number, but you can still change the serial number.
    But apparently if you hack it with the old version and do the update to the new firmware, the mod sticks!
    And apparently you can downgrade firmware as well, so it's should still easy to apply the mod to new scopes.
    I now have the latest version 2.04 file so will have to give this a go.

    Dave.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on March 31, 2010, 01:03:19 pm
    Dave, that all sounds pretty benign.

    And apparently you can downgrade firmware as well, so it's should still easy to apply the mod to new scopes.

    While that's always been true in the past, until someone actually tries it with 2.04, we won't really know.  Nor do we know what they might decide to do in the future, countermeasure-wise.  Removing the ability to downgrade would be just one unfortunate potential consequence.

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: DavidDLC on March 31, 2010, 04:12:26 pm
    A little birdie has told me that Rigol have already fixed the firmware to stop the hack, from at least the latest version 2.04, and possibly before that. It does not let you change the model number, but you can still change the serial number.
    But apparently if you hack it with the old version and do the update to the new firmware, the mod sticks!
    And apparently you can downgrade firmware as well, so it's should still easy to apply the mod to new scopes.
    I now have the latest version 2.04 file so will have to give this a go.

    Dave.

    Please let us know, yesterday I made the mod and I have firmware 2.02, of course we always want to upgrade to a new version if there are considerable improvements.

    David.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Dago on March 31, 2010, 06:07:06 pm
    Hey, after Dave posted his video about the mod I made a quick python script that will mod the scope :) Maybe it will save some hassle of installing/configuring serial terminal software or something for someone.

    Disclaimer: I'm not responsible if something bad happens to your scope because of my script (worked for me) :P

    http://www.dgkelectronics.com/storage/code/rigol_mod/rigol_mod.py

    Connect your scope to your computer, command "./rigol_mod.py /path/to/serialport" (make sure the script has execution rights and make sure you run it as root or otherwise have access to serial port devices) and it fetches the model number and serial number, displays them and asks for a confirmation to mod the scope.

    For reference the script works fine on my ubuntu 9.10 with python-serial version 2.3-1 and python 2.6.4. I *think* the script should work on windows but I have not tried it. I think the syntax for serial ports in windows is via just plain numbers (ie. 0 = COM1 etc.) The script does some basic checks like makes sure the scope model is DS1052E (before the mod) and that the serial number is 14 characters long.

    And for other people who want to make their own modscripts or are otherwise interested: the scope will crash if you change the model/serial number too fast, I had to add some delays to stop it from crashing (works great now).

    If someone has some ideas on how to make the script better (or has some problems with it) or something please tell.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 31, 2010, 07:30:20 pm

    But apparently if you hack it with the old version and do the update to the new firmware, the mod sticks!
    And apparently you can downgrade firmware as well, so it's should still easy to apply the mod to new scopes.
    I now have the latest version 2.04 file so will have to give this a go.

    Dave.

    Thats very interesting, the day i heard of the hack and obviously realised that furture versions of the firmware would remove the ability I though "bang goes the possibility of ugrading the firmware in future". If this is true it is very interesting and proves to be another small obstical for rigol
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: anli on March 31, 2010, 07:38:46 pm
    I'm not sure it is always safe to downgrade. Please, kill my doubts  ;D
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on March 31, 2010, 07:47:47 pm
    why not ? the firmware was written for that scope anyhow.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: anli on March 31, 2010, 08:10:23 pm
    why not ? the firmware was written for that scope anyhow.
    I have read bad stories wrt upgrading another (DS1000C) series. So, I suggest there are some "subseries" inside series  ;D
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: septer012 on April 01, 2010, 04:12:49 am
    I also have one on order from dealextreme bummer. I dont think they stock them either so they are probably coming from the supplier (rigol)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: mlaargh on April 01, 2010, 05:15:43 am
    We'll see, I guess. Worst case, we'll have to start harassing other forum members for firmware dumps and downgrade. I'm on day three of "Waiting for inspection" in Customs. I'm pretty convinced we got in early enough. I can't imagine it's less than a few weeks from assembly line to box in most cases.  Though it seems this hack has been around for a bit in China, I think it was for the most part first publicized on this forum a few days ago.  It looks to me like this new publicity was what prompted the firmware changes that are now allegedly rolling out.

    haha... Dave repeatedly "catching them with their pants down" has forced some changes in their design, apparently.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on April 01, 2010, 06:41:12 am
    why not ? the firmware was written for that scope anyhow.
    I have read bad stories wrt upgrading another (DS1000C) series. So, I suggest there are some "subseries" inside series  ;D

    but if you downgrade a firmware to one you already had on your scope no worries, problems may be for those that want to downgrade, hack and reupgrade
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: anli on April 01, 2010, 10:46:44 am
    why not ? the firmware was written for that scope anyhow.
    I have read bad stories wrt upgrading another (DS1000C) series. So, I suggest there are some "subseries" inside series  ;D

    but if you downgrade a firmware to one you already had on your scope no worries, problems may be for those that want to downgrade, hack and reupgrade
    Yes. But I have got the scope with lastest fw  :(
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on April 01, 2010, 12:34:31 pm
    Simon,

    anli has a C-series rigol, not the E-series that is being discussed here.  If you haven't been following the (58 pages of) Rigol discussions at the RCGroups forums (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=663958&page=58), you may not be aware that a "rose is not a rose".  I.e., not all DS1xxxC models are the same.  What this means is that if you have a DS1000C with, e.g. firmware 2.3.4, you can NOT upgrade to the latest 3.7.1.  You can only upgrade to 2.3.17, due to hardware changes in production models.  

    The newer E/D-series haven't reached that point (yet).  Though discussions here (and elsewhere) may motivate that sooner, rather than later.

    Anli,

    the first thing I would recommend you do, if you're interested in pursuing things, is follow Ross's example, and disassemble your unit to see what circuits are present on the front-end.  If the varactor-switcher that Andreas identified isn't there, that will have a big impact on what options are available to you.  You may have to substitute parts to change your scope's performance.  My personal guess is that they do NOT use that circuit, because the C-series had models at 25 MHz, 40, 60, and 100 MHz performance levels.  I'd suspect they were using different filtering components on the front-end.  

    OTOH, if a similar circuit is there (with 2-bit switching to control it), that means they were using a different mechanism to configure it.  Then you'd need to pull the appropriate lines high or low to select the mode you wanted.

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: anli on April 01, 2010, 12:48:19 pm
    Mark,

    The thing is, this DSO is the only scope in hand, and, OTOH, I'm not experienced in digital/smd area (my experience lies in analog audio/through hole components, sorry). At such circumstances own attempts seem to be too risky, and I'll wait for more experienced fellows.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on April 01, 2010, 01:19:33 pm
    All (including Dave),

    I just wrote about the previous C-series... "You may have to substitute parts to change your scope's performance.  My personal guess is that they do NOT use that circuit, because the C-series had models at 25 MHz, 40, 60, and 100 MHz performance levels.  I'd suspect they were using different filtering components on the front-end."

    Which reminded me of a fable my grandmother once read to me, when I was just a lad...

    "Once upon a time, in a land far away, a company that made many measurement devices that were affordable by the peasants had many different versions in their product line.  Even though the basic design and main board was the same for all of them, this required them to customize each model with different physical components.  And to maintain inventories of each of the A, B, C, and D models.

    One day a clever engineer at that company had the bright idea that by simplifying things, they could save a lot of production costs, and pass that savings on to their customers.  By simplifying their product line down to 2 models, and incorporating a switching device to change configurations, they could make and stock a single hardware model, and tailor them to the desired level when production sales numbers were available.  This customization could be done right on the production line, at the final step when they put a label on the product.  In this way, they could actually produce a better quality instrument, with improved performance capabilities, and at the same time even sell it for less!  His idea was applauded, and the company implemented his plan.

    Unfortunately, one serious mistake was made.  Instead of having the magical command to configure the mode check first, to see if a value had already been set, the command just went ahead and changed it without looking.  This meant it could be changed, again and again.  One day the peasants discovered this magical incantation on their own.  And instead of just using it, and being grateful for their good fortune, they began to mock and humiliate the company.  Some accused them of being deceptive, and selling the "same thing" for two different prices.  Others proclaimed how they had been "caught with their pants down", which was very embarrassing.  The company lost face.

    As a result, the company decided to think long and hard about their future products.  They made changes to make certain that they would not be embarrassed again.  More importantly, they spent their time thinking about such things, rather than spending it to improve their products.  No longer could the peasants enjoy the enhanced capabilities.  And their prices went up, casting a shadow across the lands.  There was much weeping and wailing, and knashing of teeth.  The best of days were behind them. 

    THE END."


    At least, that's the way I remember it.  ;)

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on April 01, 2010, 01:30:48 pm
    The thing is, this DSO is the only scope in hand, and, OTOH, I'm not experienced in digital/smd area (my experience lies in analog audio/through hole components, sorry). At such circumstances own attempts seem to be too risky, and I'll wait for more experienced fellows.

    You are completely correct.  I wouldn't do so either, in your position.  I should have been more clear in saying this was an avenue that was open... though someone else may have to blaze the trail first.  The important point is that I'm dubious there is any way to achieve your goal without opening the unit and modifying it physically.  No nifty magical SCPI command.

    For myself, I have no incentive to open my Rigol, which is already a 100 MHz unit (DS1102CD).  I'd probably wind up breaking a knob, or marring the faceplate.

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: darkith on April 01, 2010, 01:49:25 pm

    Which reminded me of a fable my grandmother once read to me, when I was just a lad...

    "Once upon a time
    ....
    weeping and wailing, and knashing of teeth.  The best of days were behind them. 

    THE END."


    Mmmm...needs a postscript:

    "...but, it was later discovered that the wicked resellers had discovered this magical incantation previously, and after abusing it with their magical powers of relabeling, had been hawking the cheaper models as the high end models to the peasants for some time.  So, while the the days of easy were over, the widespread knowledge of the magical incantation prevented the company from being deceived by it's resellers, completely loosing it's high-end profit margins, and being consumed in the fires of Mount Doom..."
    ...oh, wait, wrong storyline.
    :)

    D.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on April 01, 2010, 04:30:41 pm

    "...it was later discovered that the wicked resellers had discovered this magical incantation previously, and after abusing it with their magical powers of relabeling, had been hawking the cheaper models as the high end models to the peasants for some time..."


    Cute!  But was that really true (resellers were abusing it), or just conjecture?  I know we had some speculation about the possibilities here... but no confirmation.

    I've known for quite some time* that there was potential for various abuses (ever since I first did a string dump from the firmware binary, and noticed the commands without "?", implying that S/Ns and Models could be changed  :o).  I was hoping no one would notice those, but I'm not the only one with a string dumper.  After I uploaded the 2.02.02 firmware at the RCGroup forum, mxmxmx had pretty sharp eyes, and noticed it right away.  As he also pointed out, there are other commands there that adjust various offsets, that could be used for individual unit calibration/compensation purposes.  Or, to totally hose up your unit.

    - Mark

    P.S.  *Just to be clear... When did I know about the commands to alter the S/N and Model?  Back in November, when I downloaded the July update of the firmware binaries.  When did I know that changing them would alter the performance characteristics of the scopes?  The day that Andreas reported his findings here.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: bushing on April 02, 2010, 12:37:21 am
    (Thanks for the shout-out, Dave :) )

    It sounds like he parsed through a firmware file for the acceptable commands, either through just searching for strings, or actually dis-assembling the binary.  You could try that, but there's no guarantee that the DS1000C series used the same method to select model...ie. it could have been done in hardware instead.

    D.
    I have tried to find something MODEL-related - the only fragment with "model" (case-insensitive context) is:

    Code: [Select]
    DS1102CD    DS1062CD    DS1042CD    DS1022CD    DS1102C DS1062C
    DS1042C DS1022C DS1102MD    DS1062MD    DS1042MD    DS1022MD   
    DS1102M DS1062M DS1042M DS1022M DS-5110 DS-5106 DS-5104 DS-5102
    Parameter  Trig_Level_K    Trig_Level_M     Gain_A_K1   Gain_A_K2   Gain_B_K1   
    Gain_B_K2  Offset_1_A  Offset_1_K  Offset_1_M  Offset_2_A  Offset_2_K  Offset_2_M
    ADC_Offset  ADC_A_Offset_1  ADC_B_Offset_1  ADC_A_Offset_2  ADC_B_Offset_2  %6.1f
    CH1   %6d   EXT    EXT5     CH2   Trig_Sens_A     =%6.1f  Trig_Sens_K EquMin  =%d
    EquTrigDelay    RealTrigDelay   RealTrigOffset  Saving...   %s  SERVICE  Model SerialID
    Save   Clear  Power Up     1/2     2/2     System Parameter     Color   About InterploatorScale
    Press 'Stop' key to Exit    Press 'AUTO' key to load Default Value  Press 'STOP' key to Exit

    Yeah, the DS1052E firmware has strings like:
    Code: [Select]
    :STORAGE
    :STOR
    :TYPE?
    WAVEFORMS
    FACTORY
    SETUPS
    NONE
    :TYPE
    FACT
    :FACTORY
    :FACT
    :LOAD
    :INFO
    :SERIAL
    :SER
    :SERIAL?
    :SER?
    :MODEL
    :MOD
    :EQUTRIGDELAY
    :EQUTRIGDELAY?
    %1.2e
    :REALTRIGDELAY
    :SYSSERVICE
    :HARDVERSION
    :SAVEPARA
    :KEYS

    (anyone want to guess what a "factory" file is?  It looks like you can load one up from USB drive through the front-panel buttons, too)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: dimlow on April 03, 2010, 11:49:49 am
    Factory reset!
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: DavidDLC on April 03, 2010, 06:14:02 pm
    I made the mod to my unit and yesterday took it to the office, I connected and Agilent RF generator and also a 100 MHz Tektronix oscilloscope, then I set the generator to multiples of 10 MHz frequencies like 10, 20, 30 ..... 100 MHz at a fixed voltage and measured the signal in both scopes and they behave pretty similar.

    Up to 90 MHz they were pretty close, from 90 to 100 MHz the difference was bigger but not that much.

    I'm really happy with the results I obtained and now I'm confident of the change.

    Well this was a basic comparison, if there is another comparison that will even give us better results, let me know and I will try to do it.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on April 03, 2010, 06:34:30 pm
    There aren't a huge number of differences between the older C-series and the newer E/D-series, but I found it a bit odd that when they added an option to enable/disable sinx/x on the 1000E (which is a display function), that they put it in the Acquire menu instead.  This is doubly odd, since to do so, they had to push the SamplingRate information out of the Acquire menu (where it properly belongs).  At first I thought they had eliminated it, but it turns out they moved it into the Horizontal timebase Menu.

    Personally, like Agilent, I think the sampling rate is something that would be good to have on-screen all or most of the time.  Especially since these scopes do NOT have an adjustable anti-aliasing filter in the front-end that automatically adapts when the sampling rate is reduced.  It's all too easy to wind up being puzzled by alias artifacts when the sampling rate dropped lower than you realized (because it's a "hidden" parameter).

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: flolic on April 03, 2010, 07:10:54 pm
    From my experience, inexperience user can easily be fulled by aliasing if too slow sample rate is selected. In that case you can see the waveform, but
    you can not lock the trigger on it. So, if you can't lock the trigger, check the horizontal timebase setting  ;)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: GeoffS on April 06, 2010, 08:34:03 am
    I've a DS1052E and I'd like to try the much talked about modification to the DS1102E.
    As the scope I have is 12 moths old, I asked Rigol about later firmware and I received an update via
    email. From a scan of the firmware file, the version appears to be 00.02.02.02.00.

    Before I go ahead and update the firmware and find that the mod no longer works, is there a way to dump the existing firmware or is there
    an older version I can get from somewhere/someone that I can restore so to make the 1102E mod?
    The version of firmware currently installed is 00.02.01 SP1
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on April 06, 2010, 08:38:09 am
    rumor has it you can convert on your current firmware and then upgrade and the mod will remain but don't quote me on it
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rossmoffett on April 06, 2010, 05:43:05 pm
    tumutbound:

    On the much discussed RCGroups thread, you will find the old firmware posted by Mark_O.  I can't remember what page it was in, but it was discussed and linked in one of the last several pages.

    Simon:

    Of course if the only difference is the serial/model the updated firmware will work fine, otherwise they'd be bricking all of their legitimate DS1102E machines!

    EDIT:
    Old Firmware:  02.02.02 - I say old because I hear rumors that it's been updated to stop the DS1102E conversion
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on April 06, 2010, 05:52:57 pm


    Simon:

    Of course if the only difference is the serial/model the updated firmware will work fine, otherwise they'd be bricking all of their legitimate DS1102E machines!

    thats a good point, they have no way of telling one from the other
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: bushing on April 06, 2010, 07:55:46 pm
    Factory reset!

    Sure, but reset of *what*?  What goes in that file?  How do I make one? :)

    Unrelated, does anyone know where I can get a copy of the new firmware image?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on April 07, 2010, 12:30:58 am
    One other thing people should be on the lookout for is that it's possible Rigol could release an updated firmware, but keep the version number the same.  I.e., there could be an "old" 02.02.02 and a new 02.02.02.

    I'm not saying this has or will happen... just that it could.

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: EEVblog on April 07, 2010, 12:49:08 am
    Unrelated, does anyone know where I can get a copy of the new firmware image?

    You have mail.

    Dave.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rct on April 07, 2010, 01:04:05 am
    One other thing people should be on the lookout for is that it's possible Rigol could release an updated firmware, but keep the version number the same.  I.e., there could be an "old" 02.02.02 and a new 02.02.02.

    I'm not saying this has or will happen... just that it could.

    For reference information, here are some identifiable details from the previously posted 02.02.02.  Disclaimer, I have not tried this firmware since my scope (purchased in March) reports that it is running this.   On the screen it shows up as 02.02 SP2,  *IDN? reports the version as 00.02.02.02.00.


    $ unzip -l DS1000_D,E_Upd_v2_02_02.zip
    Archive:  DS1000_D,E_Upd_v2_02_02.zip
      Length     Date   Time    Name
     --------    ----   ----    ----
      4194325  07-21-09 20:35   DS1000_D,E_Upd_v2_02_02/DS1000DUpdate.RGL
      4194325  07-21-09 20:35   DS1000_D,E_Upd_v2_02_02/DS1000EUpdate.RGL
        72569  11-03-09 15:00   DS1000_D,E_Upd_v2_02_02/DS1k Upgrade Guidance.pdf
            0  11-09-09 18:21   DS1000_D,E_Upd_v2_02_02/
     --------                   -------
      8461219                   4 files

    $ md5sum *RGL
    16d645a8ac4b9cf0d5b11cc3e3a62536  DS1000DUpdate.RGL
    272086b2037231c62446617436544a77  DS1000EUpdate.RGL
    $ md5sum DS1000_D,E_Upd_v2_02_02.zip
    ab9595533808466830a5ac72da2a493f  DS1000_D,E_Upd_v2_02_02.zip


    There are md5 'checksum' utilities for just about every platform that can be used for generating this fingerprint.

    Hope This Helps,
    --Rob


    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: mlaargh on April 07, 2010, 01:46:43 am
    Hey all, just thought I'd chime in with an update. Received my scope (ordered from DX on 3/22) and was concerned to find my firmware was version 00.02.02 SP2 whereas Dave's unit as upgraded in the video was v.00.02.01 SP1. The good news is: After a few false starts, it took. I'm now another proud owner of an 1102!
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: ModernRonin on April 07, 2010, 03:11:02 am
    Another 2.02 SP2 owner here with a successful upgrade report.

    Or at least, it appears completely successful. Timebase goes down to 2ns and the config screen claims it's an 1102E.

    Pics: http://mackys.livejournal.com/897621.html

    Edit: Just FTR, the mod took on the first try for me. Followed the video exactly, had no problems at all.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rossmoffett on April 07, 2010, 03:28:38 am
    Mine was successful as well, purchased in February 2010.  If you, or anyone else, have a recently (post mod publish) hack, then make that clear please for future buyers.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: GeoffS on April 07, 2010, 04:43:56 am
    For reference information, here are some identifiable details from the previously posted 02.02.02.  Disclaimer, I have not tried this firmware since my scope (purchased in March) reports that it is running this.   On the screen it shows up as 02.02 SP2,  *IDN? reports the version as 00.02.02.02.00.

    $ md5sum *RGL
    16d645a8ac4b9cf0d5b11cc3e3a62536  DS1000DUpdate.RGL
    272086b2037231c62446617436544a77  DS1000EUpdate.RGL
    $ md5sum DS1000_D,E_Upd_v2_02_02.zip
    ab9595533808466830a5ac72da2a493f  DS1000_D,E_Upd_v2_02_02.zip



    As I mentioned in a previous post, I got a copy of the latest DS1052E firmware directly from Rigol. 00.02.02 SP2.
    I've unzipped it and run an md5sum on the file and can confirm that  it is the same as that provided by Rob:

    272086b2037231c62446617436544a77  DS1000EUpdate.RGL

    Regards
    Geoff
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on April 07, 2010, 05:14:43 am
    This "new" FW you get from Rigol (P.R.C.) or "rigolna"?

    This do not proof that factory used FW (still may be same rev) is identical.

    I will look if next machine after 1 or 2 days from Rigol (P.R.C.) have same problem what I have with one other new (March) machine.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on April 07, 2010, 06:50:58 am
    Hey all, just thought I'd chime in with an update. Received my scope (ordered from DX on 3/22) and was concerned to find my firmware was version 00.02.02 SP2 whereas Dave's unit as upgraded in the video was v.00.02.01 SP1. The good news is: After a few false starts, it took. I'm now another proud owner of an 1102!

    I believe mine is SP2 as well but that was bought last year, Dave's SP1 must have been early one because I only bought mine maybe a month or two later
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: GeoffS on April 07, 2010, 12:29:13 pm
    This "new" FW you get from Rigol (P.R.C.) or "rigolna"?

    The email address I sent my request to was info@rigol.com. The reply with the new firmware came from rigoltech.com
    The date on the DS1000EUpdate.RGL file was July 21 2009.
    Not sure if that helps.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on April 07, 2010, 02:06:47 pm
    > The reply with the new firmware came from rigoltech.com <

    That's Rigol-US, in Ohio.

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: dimlow on April 07, 2010, 07:48:28 pm
    Factory reset!

    Sure, but reset of *what*?  What goes in that file?  How do I make one? :)

    Unrelated, does anyone know where I can get a copy of the new firmware image?

    I was just assuming that is was like the factory settings reset, just like in the storage menu. It was only a guess. Anyway i find what you have done with the reading of the eeprom very intesting, just wish we could find out where the Model and Serial are stored in the scope as i believe i may have corrupted this area when changing the model number, the scope has a few problems. Still im not sure its hardware or software, but id like to try rewriting the correct info back into the scope to see if that can solve it. As you can see from a previous post( with link to RC groups http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1222045) someone else has also managed to corrupt this data and has very similar problems to my scope.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Jaka57 on April 07, 2010, 07:58:29 pm
    Yet another success.
    I've ordered mine on Batronix (Germany) at 29.03.2010. FW ver. 2.02.02.
    I did hack yesterday evening. Now I'm also proud owner of 1102E ;D.
    TNX Dave!

    Regards
    Jaka
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: David on April 07, 2010, 10:02:19 pm
    Anyone know of the cheapest supplier of Rigol scopes for UK customers? I am sure they used to be on ebay for £200 from China before they all got removed?

    Dave
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: EEVblog on April 07, 2010, 10:13:29 pm
    Anyone know of the cheapest supplier of Rigol scopes for UK customers? I am sure they used to be on ebay for £200 from China before they all got removed?

    See:
    https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=6.msg3392#msg3392 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=6.msg3392#msg3392)
    Joy at MCS is an official UK rep and has it for £281, which sounds like a top price for buying from an official dealer.

    Dave.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: David on April 07, 2010, 10:15:57 pm
    Thanks Dave, looks like a good future purchase.

    P.S - Good work on the For sale section! I was going to suggest such an idea.

    Dave
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on April 08, 2010, 06:55:32 am
    Anyone know of the cheapest supplier of Rigol scopes for UK customers? I am sure they used to be on ebay for £200 from China before they all got removed?

    See:
    https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=6.msg3392#msg3392 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=6.msg3392#msg3392)
    Joy at MCS is an official UK rep and has it for £281, which sounds like a top price for buying from an official dealer.

    Dave.

    just remember that you need to add VAT to that (17.5 % in the UK) but it is still a good price
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: drieg on April 08, 2010, 08:16:26 am
    ...just wish we could find out where the Model and Serial are stored in the scope as i believe i may have corrupted this area when changing the model number, the scope has a few problems. Still im not sure its hardware or software, but id like to try rewriting the correct info back into the scope to see if that can solve it. As you can see from a previous post( with link to RC groups http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1222045) someone else has also managed to corrupt this data and has very similar problems to my scope.

    You are definitely right. Using serial cable (especially in connection with HyperTerminal) is very risky way, how to upgrade your DS1052E to DS1102E. In some cases it corrumpts part of internal flash memory. Especially if you accidentally hit the ENTER instead of sending correct <LF> code, you can bet that you have just corrupted some data. Sometimes I've experienced these corrupted data even if I sent correct <LF>. Internal flash holds some important factory calibration data (different from Self-Calibration) which are unique to every unit. There is no easy way how to recreate these data if they gets corrupted. So this is the reason why I DO NOT RECOMMEND TO DO IT VIA SERIAL CABLE! I know what I'm talking about.

    Check these cases:
    https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=30.msg2901#msg2901
    https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=30.msg2954#msg2954
    https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=30.msg3270#msg3270
    http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1222045

    @Dave: I'm sorry to say, but I don't think it was a good idea to make a video encouraging people to do this...
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Ferenczyg on April 08, 2010, 01:38:05 pm
    Then, what approach is the rigth one? USB and the National Instruments Tool?

    /F
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on April 08, 2010, 09:06:24 pm
    Using serial cable... is very risky... In some cases it corrupts part of internal flash memory. Especially if you accidentally hit the ENTER instead of sending correct <LF> code, you can bet that you have just corrupted some data. Sometimes I've experienced these corrupted data even if I sent correct <LF>.

    Drieg, thanks for raising a flag on this.  Your second point I find most alarming.

    Quote
    Internal flash holds some important factory calibration data (different from Self-Calibration) which are unique to every unit.

    Yes.  People should think of it like this.  The precise values of the components in every Rigol unit is different.  So during the initial factory calibration process, they fed in specific reference standard values in each range, and save the correction factors in NVM.  These are per channel, per voltage range, per frequency range base/offset values.  Those are what the scope uses when it later does it's own self-cals.  It has to have an externally supplied and internally remembered reference to calibrate to.  Normally, once set, these would never be changed, and thus the scope has a solid reference to rely on.  But when backdoor mods are done, it's possible to change more than what you were planning on.  Once overwritten, they're gone.   :o

    You mentioned "internal flash".  Do you happen to know where this non-volatile data is being stored?  I had assumed EEPROM.

    Lastly, is sending these commands via USB any safer?  I.e., isn't sending too long a string still a potential (though more easily avoided) problem?  I would think if done properly they would be 100% reliable and safe, since that's how it's done in the factory.

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on April 08, 2010, 09:40:42 pm
    BTW, the downside of all this is that it's essentially destroyed the resale value of used Rigols.   :o  It's the Law of Unintended Consequences.

    Why do I say that?  Because now there's no way to know whether a used unit was tampered with.  Even if it's set back to 1052E, you don't know what's been done with it.  And so far, if a unit is modded improperly, there's no way to recover vital data.  It still displays a trace, but there are strange and unexplained behaviors.  The bottom line is that there is invisible data that's critical to proper Rigol operation.  Normally that data is secure, but a side-effect is that this data is vulnerable and can be undetectably destroyed.  :(

    One thing that no one here has done is perform a full set of base measurements with their unit (reference set), and then compare them with the readings after the mod.  That would be extremely time-consuming, and here was no reason to think it was necessary.  Yes, several have done some spot and range checks, which were indicative of good results (mostly at the high end of the frequency spectrum).  But we don't know WHICH reference data is located immediately after the strings involved.  So the problem might be only on, e.g. Chan2, 200-2000 mV, in a certain frequency range.

    Who'd like to buy shafri or dimlow's unit now (sorry, guys), and try to use it for meaningful measurements you can rely on?  Now, potentially any unit you come across could be like this.  The mod has certainly been publicized widely enough.  Until we find a solution to their problem (if one exists), it's now a problem for everyone.  While shafri's problem may be very obvious, due to his making repeated mistakes when sending strings in, others may be much more subtle.  I'd really like to hear more from Drieg on the corrupted data he's experienced when sending the proper <LF> terminator.

    Rigol may even need to get involved with this, since it could completely undermine their integrity as an instrument that can be trusted.  And it was their oversight that left the door open to this damage, so ultimately it's THEIR responsibility.  Yeah, let's blame it on them.  ;)

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: EEVblog on April 08, 2010, 09:47:53 pm
    @Dave: I'm sorry to say, but I don't think it was a good idea to make a video encouraging people to do this...

    Err, so I shouldn't have told anyone about it at all?
    What is a safer method? USB and a linux script? maybe, but plenty of people have had success with the serial port, with only a few failures it seems, and they probably didn't follow the instructions.
    If you follow my instructions you shouldn't corrupt your firmware.

    Dave.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on April 08, 2010, 10:18:03 pm
    I can't see what the hype is about over calibration etc, the 1052 and the 1102 are the SAME machine and work in the same way, the only difference is that the input filter on the 1052 is told to lower it's bandwidth and the firmware will allow you to go to 2ns/div. I don't quite see here. of course if data that is required for calibration is overwritten then well it's an issue but frankly if changing the model in the same way as rigol clearly do it can have such adverse effects who is to say that rigol are not selling scopes that are already defective, their firmware should be more solid, this is after all a feature that they put in themselves. really this is no "hack" this is how the machine was made, it was meant to do this but we were never told
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on April 08, 2010, 10:21:11 pm
    Dave,
    > plenty of people have had success with the serial port <

    They seem to have had.  Though I'd really like to hear more from Drieg on the corruption he experienced.  It could be quite subtle.  Or he could just have been using a unit from a different hardware batch.

    > ...with only a few failures it seems, and they probably didn't follow the instructions. <

    The folks reporting significant problems most certainly went beyond the boundaries.

    > If you follow my instructions you shouldn't corrupt your firmware. <

    We hope.  It's possible there could be a single corrupted byte, and it may not matter.  E.g., byte alignment for word data may have the critical information starting one byte later than the string termination.

    - Mark

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on April 08, 2010, 10:28:12 pm
    Simon commented:
    > I can't see what the hype is about over calibration etc <

    That's very true.  You can't see it.   ???  However, that does not stop it from being a potential problem, in spite of that.

    > the 1052 and the 1102 are the SAME machine and work in the same way... <

    Irrelevant.

    > of course if data that is required for calibration is overwritten then well it's an issue <

    Bingo.

    > but frankly if changing the model in the same way as rigol clearly do it can have such adverse effects... <

    The point being precisely that Rigol does NOT change the Model "in the same way".  They do it over USB.  Just because the RS232 and USB commands operate in the same way most of the time, doesn't mean they do in all cases.  These are "special" commands, and I might point out again, in case anyone has forgotten, also undocumented.

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: EEVblog on April 08, 2010, 10:58:59 pm
    Sure, this needs some investigation and further monitoring, and if it turns out to be a serious problem then it needs to be addressed, and I'll be happy to alert people once facts are known.
    But until then it's all just speculation really.
    What can I say, my unit appears to work just fine on every range and function I have tried it on.

    It's an undocumented hack, so as always, mod at your own risk.

    I think it's not very feasible that there is a technical difference between using USB or serial. And nobody knows how Rigol do it at the factory, but the command exists, so I'd be surprised if that's not how they do it. But they probably have an automated script.

    Dave.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on April 08, 2010, 11:45:36 pm
    Dave commented:
    > I think it's not very feasible that there is a technical difference between using USB or serial. <

    Of course there is.  Higher-level software can make them look similar, but USB doesn't handle variable-length strings, with terminators.  It handles blocks of data, with size info in the header or descriptor.

    With serial, you're looking at an endless stream of bytes.  Byte come in and are processed one at a time.  Things like control characters (e.g., BS) that you'd think would be handled by a command parser, aren't.  They're just another character.  CR's don't work.  They're not a line-terminator, as you'd expect.  It's not until you hit the specific terminator character it is looking for (LF, ^J, or Alt-010) that it then attempts to process the command you've typed.

    > my unit appears to work just fine on every range and function I have tried it on.  It's an undocumented hack, so as always, mod at your own risk. <

    Yes, and as you pointed out, it seems to have worked well for many others too.  So hopefully, you (and they) are all in the clear.  There's a good chance that is the case, and there's "No worries, mate".  But until we get more information from Drieg, that apparent success itself is, as you say "just speculation really".  

    And for those who blindly (as in, didn't understand the ramifications) typed in strings that were too long (NOT the people who followed your video, to the letter)... they're in a pickle.  This is a really easy mistake to make, since all our experience typing commands into things tells us that we can do things like back up and fix mistakes.  And hit Enter when we're done.  And that if we type in something that's too long, the software will just chop off the excess for us.  But none of that applies on the Rigol.  :(  Which is where the problems are coming from.  This is a sharp-edged sword... without a proper grip.

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rossmoffett on April 09, 2010, 12:01:14 am
    I don't see that all of this bold print and borderline ridicule are merited... We're just discussing oscilloscope modification here, after all.  Keeping the conversation civil would be helpful to everyone.

    With the problems people are experiencing using serial modifications, I also suggest that people try to use the USB protocol (who knows whether this is what Rigol does at the factory, until they say so I don't think anyone can guess).  I had intended to do it this way myself, but because I have only two weeks left of university things are really hectic and I just threw together a three-pin serial cable to do my modification.  All sorts of things can go wrong when using serial com, as has been mentioned thoroughly, but I don't see how Dave can be held liable for this.  Would you say the same to user mxmxmx?  To me, for posting my hardware mod?  After all, my mod was corrected by user JimBeam later (and I'm happy for it, I didn't know better).  This is how things get done by groups on the internet, post everything, if it doesn't work, it'll come out eventually.

    It's unfortunate that some units have been made unusable, but everyone should know they take their own risks when performing "hacks" to their equipment.  It's just the way it is, regardless of how it's portrayed.  Right now the success rate seems awesome, more users than are posting have probably done this successfully, as I'm sure any unsuccessful users would post for help.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rct on April 09, 2010, 12:06:53 am
    I think it's not very feasible that there is a technical difference between using USB or serial.

    I may not know much about hardware, but that's a bad assumption when it comes to software.  I can see many ways that the code paths in the firmware between handling serial input and USB input can be different.   Even forgetting that, the byte stream the computer sends to the scope can be very different depending on whether it is line based or character based.

    Unless the terminal emulator has been set into a line buffered mode, every character typed will be sent as it is typed.  So if you type *, I, D, X, <backspace>, N, ?,  <newline>.  It is up to the rigol to interpret the backspace, erase the X and leave the pointer there.  It doesn't do that, so the input buffer contains *IDX<BackSpace>N?.  When it tries to interpret that it will be considered an invalid command and be ignored (doesn't match the stored string).  If you type *IDN?<return><newline>, it will also ignore the input as not valid (again the string compare that it is likely doing doesn't match)

    Here's a test you can do to see how the "parser" is behaving.  First disable local echo, so it doesn't mislead you about what you are sending to the scope.  When you type a command like *IDN? to the scope and hit alt-010 to get a newline, after the response text, the cursor goes down one line and does not return to the left edge of the screen since there is no carriage return.   To see that the scope's serial parser will add happily control characters to the parameter buffer try entering :IO:TEST testing<return><newline>.  The scope will echo "testing", a carriage return, and a newline, so the cursor should now be on the left in column 0.   If you have local echo off, the carriage return came from the rigol, showing that it was part of the input buffer that was echoed back.   Now type :IO:TEST abc<return>testing<newline>.    You will see testing.  (the abc if the cursor was started column 0 was echoed but was written over on the screen by "testing".  The carriage return was stored in the middle of the buffer.

    So using a terminal emulator (especially with local echo turned on) it's entirely possible people could be writing very long strings like :INFO:MODEL DS1052<bs><bs><bs>1102e<bs>D<cr><bs>

    I just checked the video, you don't say you can't hit backspace while typing.  Of course during the video you typed the strings perfectly.

    So You should probably warn people they can't make any mistakes while typing these commands.  I suppose one thing people could do would be to type the commands into Notepad, verify they are correct and then very carefully copy & paste one line at a time   I don't see a line buffered or "cooked" mode for hyper terminal.

    I can't think of a safe way to abort the command entry once you've started typing.  The safest thing I can think of is to enter the newline to end the command early so it will be a short string and then start over, *without* rebooting the scope until the bad input has been corrected.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: dimlow on April 09, 2010, 12:43:22 am
    well, i just confirmed that long strings are not the problem. As my scope is buggered, i just set my serial and model no to 123456789123456789123456789123456789123456789123456789

    *idn? responds with

    Rigol Technologies,123456789123456789123456789123456789123456789123456789,123456789123456789123456789123456789123456789123456789,00.02.02.02.00

    but the system info screen now shows model as 123456789123456789123456789123456789123456789123456789
    and the serial no surprisingly is now showing DS10000001

    if i do another *idn? after a reboot i still get the same as above, so im now thinking the serial that is displayed on screen, is not stored as a string but is decoded from the string you send it. but still that string is stored and retrieved from memory when you do *idn? or :info:serial?

    long sting lengths dont seem to be the problem here, i think maybe it has something to do with my scope crashing whilst setting the model or serial no, pretty sure its nothing to do with string lengths
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: EEVblog on April 09, 2010, 12:56:22 am
    I think it's not very feasible that there is a technical difference between using USB or serial.

    I may not know much about hardware, but that's a bad assumption when it comes to software.  I can see many ways that the code paths in the firmware between handling serial input and USB input can be different.   Even forgetting that, the byte stream the computer sends to the scope can be very different depending on whether it is line based or character based.

    I was assuming that Rigol would simply implement a standard USB to serial converter in there somewhere, and use the serial interface (from RS232 or USB) as the lowest common denominator interface. From a design point of view that would reduce the need to code two entirely separate serial interfaces. But I have not looked into this at all, so they could very well be entirely different beasts.

    Dave.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: EEVblog on April 09, 2010, 01:06:16 am
    So You should probably warn people they can't make any mistakes while typing these commands.

    I've added a note to the blog page. It's not possible to update the video.

    Quote
    I can't think of a safe way to abort the command entry once you've started typing.  The safest thing I can think of is to enter the newline to end the command early so it will be a short string and then start over, *without* rebooting the scope until the bad input has been corrected.

    FYI
    I actually had several attempts at it before I got it to work, I accidentally pressed ENTER and backspace etc too several times, and even switched the unit off half way through. Several times it model number would not stick after the reboot.
    But like I said, I had no issues at all, hence there was no warning in the video as there did not appear to be any risks at the time. And maybe there still isn't any risk, perhaps it's something else entirely as Dimlow suspects?

    Dave.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rct on April 09, 2010, 03:54:28 am
    well, i just confirmed that long strings are not the problem. As my scope is buggered, i just set my serial and model no to 123456789123456789123456789123456789123456789123456789

    I think all that proves is that there is no bounds checking in the way the command is implemented, and that the string is read out as a string with a terminator (probably null) instead of a fixed length. 
     
    I think the question is now that a long string has been written has any of the scope's behavior changed?  (after a reboot)

    The affect of writing the longer string depends on how the flash/nvram memory is organized and updated.  If that was a fixed string size it overwrote something immediately after it.    If the flash is organized as say a list of null terminated attribute value pairs that gets completely rewritten as a whole unit, it might not cause any issues if there is enough free space in the flash.   If there wasn't enough extra space possibly something could fall off the end.

    We'll know a lot more if anyone determines a method for reading the contents of the flash/nvram.   Maybe with a bus pirate...   but that's a different blog...
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rct on April 09, 2010, 04:17:40 am
    And maybe there still isn't any risk, perhaps it's something else entirely as Dimlow suspects?

    I'm not saying we understand what is going on inside.  However, I think the change would be least likely to have any unintended side effects if the model & serial strings stayed exactly the same length without any hidden control characters (like backspace, carriage return).    Unfortunately I think it is very easy for someone typing at a terminal emulator to do so without being aware of it.

    Dimlow, if you're game for testing things on your scope, could you try a test to prove it will blindly store control characters?      If you type :INFO:SERIAL bad<backspace><backspace><backspace>123456789<return><newline>  Then do a :INFO:SERIAL?<newline>  I think it will display as 123456789 and the cursor will move to column 0 instead of just dropping down mid-screen.   It might look like you entered what you intended and when you display it would display as what you intended plus the extra carriage return which you might not even notice,  but if you were able to look at the actual bytes coming back you'd see 'bad<0x08><0x08><0x08>123456789<0x0xd> and the length of the string would be 16 instead of 9 (not counting the terminator).
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on April 09, 2010, 06:10:43 am
    well, i just confirmed that long strings are not the problem. As my scope is buggered, i just set my serial _and_ model no to 123456789123456789123456789123456789123456789123456789

    dimlow, most excellent!  I would have been worried that a string that long would result in a totally non-functional unit.  Doing both was pretty brave.  Are you sure though that things didn't get worse?

    Quote
    i think maybe it has something to do with my scope crashing whilst setting the model or serial no, pretty sure its nothing to do with string lengths

    Based on what you did (BOTH strings super long) that would sure seem to the case.  There's been lots of experimenting going on, without noting what the detailed steps were when things went wrong.  I was kind of hoping it was string-related, because that held some hope of resolving your problem without the expense of a round-trip to China.  If it really was due to a crash, as you suspect, that would seem to make it more unlikely (though not impossible) you could fix it yourself.

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on April 09, 2010, 06:15:50 am
    I was assuming that Rigol would simply implement a standard USB to serial converter in there somewhere, and use the serial interface (from RS232 or USB) as the lowest common denominator interface. From a design point of view that would reduce the need to code two entirely separate serial interfaces.

    That really is a good and logical assumption.  However, like lots of embedded controllers these days, the devices in the Rigol have many independent comm channels available.  They've got USB with MSD (mass-storage device) Class.  Another USB with serialDevice Class.  And an RS232 port.  All independent, AFAIK from browsing the spec sheets.

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mark_O on April 09, 2010, 06:31:29 am
    Ross wrote:
    > I don't see that all of this bold print and borderline ridicule are merited...  Keeping the conversation civil would be helpful to everyone. <

    I just went back and looked, and the only one I see bolding anything is me.  Apparently you're not a fan of my writing style.  That's fine.

    But when you refer to "ridicule" and imply that the conversation has not been "civil", I'm really confused.  At no time has it been my intent to ridicule anyone (except Simon ;), and he's been a good sport about it).  Like everyone else here, I've simply been trying to make a contribution to the discussion.  Nor did I realize I was being uncivil.  Thanks for clarifying that for me.

    Luckily, it's a problem easily rectified.  I have lots of ways and places to spend my time.

    - Mark
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on April 09, 2010, 06:45:48 am
    At no time has it been my intent to ridicule anyone (except Simon ;), and he's been a good sport about it).

    - Mark


    Story of my life  ;D

    I was very shaky about the mod but now you see why, I was a dumb noob asking stupid questions because I don't like messing with things that costs me lots of money and wrecking them. Luckily mine went off without a hitch but I did take the precaution of copying and pasting the commands from this thread, once they the exact method had been posted
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: drieg on April 09, 2010, 09:40:20 am
    Wow, many question raised. I'll try to answer them, but first I'd like to say, that my intention was not to cause panic or hold Dave liable for this. I just wanted to warn people of this issue and remind them that it's always a risk unless you exactly know, what is going on inside.

    OK, here's my experience.

    The safest "upgrade" method is to backup flash memory and modify just the fields that are needed to modify. You can do it through external programmer or JTAG, which I beleive is the way how they do it in production.

    I didn't use any "command" method (serial or USB) because I didn't find it reliable. To be honest I have only little experience with USB, but I have some bad experience with serial cable. As I didn't monitor the serial communication between my laptop and scope, I can't exactly say if the problem was terminal software which I used (HyperTerminal, Realterm), cable, my serial port or SCPI command implementation inside firmware. I'm only sure that I didn't hit Enter key accidentally and the data gets corrupted even so. Another thing is, that sometimes I get different answers from scope for same commands. The good example is :INFO:MODEL command. Sometimes you have to perform it several times, till the new value is written into flash. The same problem with another command which writes HW revision into this area. And finally... I didn't like the fact, that even if you hit Enter by mistake, the whole part of flash is written by "random" data. It makes me think, that command implementation inside is not done well. The firmware should be immune to these mistakes. These are the reasons, why I gave up on these "command" methods totaly and did it another way.

    @dimlow
    You are on the good way to ruin your scope totally :o Be caferul, there is limited space for model and serial info inside flash and I don't know, if the string is truncated before writting into flash. Right after these fields there are other vitally important data (HW revision, and others)...
    Anyway, let me know, when you need repair ;)



    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: dimlow on April 09, 2010, 12:02:02 pm
    OK, here's my experience.

    The safest "upgrade" method is to backup flash memory and modify just the fields that are needed to modify. You can do it through external programmer or JTAG, which I beleive is the way how they do it in production.
    Please give details of how you did it ?

    @dimlow
    You are on the good way to ruin your scope totally :o Be caferul, there is limited space for model and serial info inside flash and I don't know, if the string is truncated before writting into flash. Right after these fields there are other vitally important data (HW revision, and others)...
    Anyway, let me know, when you need repair ;)
    Please how do you know what data is stored where ? more detail please. And i have another two scopes, not really bothered now if i scrap the scope or not. So were do i start if i want to dump the data ?

    Oh i so you can repair my scope ? Great, lets get started. who are you, what your is relationship with the Rigol scope. what it the timescale for the repair. where do i send it to ? maybe we should do this via PM.

    @others
     wont be doing any  testing today, well maybe later, went out on the beer yesterday, head hurts today! will try to answer more questions later. Oh and the scope has not changed since i put in the long serial numbers.

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: darkith on April 09, 2010, 12:47:42 pm
    Be caferul, there is limited space for model and serial info inside flash and I don't know, if the string is truncated before writting into flash. Right after these fields there are other vitally important data (HW revision, and others)...

    As you say, that's the kicker.  It's not the communication method per se, it's the code that takes the argument string for the ":INFO:MODEL" command, and conceivably writes the entire string length to memory without truncating/verifying length.  If the code did a sanity check (model_arg < model_max_len), it would prevent truly breaking things.  At worst, a mistaken control character (backspace, enter, etc) would munge the value, but could be easily fixed.  Not verifying the length means that the corruption can be pushed outside of the model and serial fields, and that could be very bad...


    Anyway, let me know, when you need repair ;)

    So....you're saying you have a method using an external or JTAG programmer, would you be willing to share that?  It sounds like there are a few people who need this procedure, and probably a known-good flash dump to over-write their corrupted settings.

    D.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mechatrommer on April 09, 2010, 02:01:35 pm
    Mr dimlow: you've made a very brave attempt (long serial). then it proved that it will not get things even worst. as somebody else did with backspace and enter key. now i'm stumbled even more.

    "drieg: The safest "upgrade" method is to backup flash memory and modify just the fields that are needed to modify. You can do it through external programmer or JTAG, which I beleive is the way how they do it in production."

    the header sits right next to the blackfin is connected to EMU, TMS, TCK, TRST, TDI, TDO. i heard with my brain, it sounds like JTAG (MOSI, MISO CLK, ISPDAT, ISPCLK sounds pretty similar). will study more on this. i dont have any programmer, any suggestion? can i program arduino mega to do that? blackfin 531 is a way much more powerful than atmega1280, i dont know if i can make arduino outruns blackfin. :)

    i hope the precaution to not make any mistake while hyperterminaling is spoken out loud.

    p/s: i corrupted the EEPROM data, but i dont know how it happened. now, i have to fix it, but how? i dont know what will happen.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: bushing on April 09, 2010, 08:31:04 pm
    OK, here's my experience.

    The safest "upgrade" method is to backup flash memory and modify just the fields that are needed to modify. You can do it through external programmer or JTAG, which I beleive is the way how they do it in production.
    Please give details of how you did it ?

    Seconded.  FWIW, I doubt they do it that way in the factory -- I think they probably do the initial programming via the card-edge SPI connector on the PCB that I posted about earlier in the thread -- that would be a lot faster than plugging in a JTAG cable, and it would explain why the connector is there in the first place.  I would also expect that they then use the serial or USB interface to write the device-unique information -- they have to hook one of those cables up anyway to perform automated testing/calibration, and it would explain why those commands exist on the USB/serial interfaces.

    That being said, you seem to have ... more insight into all of this than I do, so I'd also love to hear more about the flash memory and how you've modified it -- I've considered desoldering it (the NOR flash) and reading it externally, but reading it out over JTAG would be safer.   Sadly, I don't think OpenOCD supports BlackFin, but my FT2232D-based JTAG dongle is similar enough to http://docs.blackfin.uclinux.org/doku.php?id=hw:jtag:gnice that we might be able to just use their tools.   Hmmm...
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: RayJones on April 09, 2010, 11:10:08 pm
    A sure fire way to enter a non munged value would be to simply cut and paste from notepad.

    However, I'd never use Hyperterminal as it really is a woefully crap software terminal.
    My fav for a long time has been ZOC - works with socket(ie telnet) or serial ports. FTW.

    Using ZOC, you can highlight a phrase on the terminal area, and it automatically gets picked up in the clipboard.
    Drop it into notepad, fix it up, then reverse the procedure.
    Too simple!
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: opus131 on April 10, 2010, 04:28:08 pm
      There is no need for the firmware in the DSO1502E to recognize 'backspace' and implement its behavior:
    the commands are most likely not for interactive use.  Hyperterminal sends characters as they are
    typed and could fill up a buffer and possibly corrupt the stack, crashing and possibly corrupting data.
      CuteCom on gnu/linux does not send anything until the enter key is pressed and the enter key can be
    configured to send a linefeed only.  This means that if someone is not being as diligent as required
    when using Hyperterminal, backspaces and such cause no harm when using CuteCom.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: wd5gnr on April 10, 2010, 07:09:32 pm
    http://realterm.sourceforge.net/ is a choice for Windows (although I use Linux anyhow, but I deal with enough Windows that I have a copy of this stashed).

    I ordered one from DX and am hopeful it will be upgradeable. Great info.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rct on April 10, 2010, 08:06:46 pm
    CuteCom on gnu/linux does not send anything until the enter key is pressed and the enter key can be
    configured to send a linefeed only.

    Excellent! thanks for the pointer to CuteCom.  I was wondering if there was a *nix equivalent of realterm.

    For linux with USB, with the default somewhat broken usbtmc driver one could get away with
    Code: [Select]
    echo "*IDN?" > /dev/usbtmc0 ; cat < /dev/usbtmc0
    echo ":INFO:SERIAL?" > /dev/usbtmc0 ; cat < /dev/usbtmc0
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rct on April 10, 2010, 08:45:16 pm
    Hyperterminal sends characters as they are typed and could fill up a buffer and possibly corrupt the stack, crashing and possibly corrupting data.  CuteCom on gnu/linux does not send anything until the enter key is pressed and the enter key can be configured to send a linefeed only.  This means that if someone is not being as diligent as required when using Hyperterminal, backspaces and such cause no harm when using CuteCom.

    Err, it's not just hyperterm, the default mode for most serial terminal emulators is character based, not line buffered with local editing, because that's what the vast majority of what they are emulating did.   (Sure some ancient green screens did have a local editing line buffered mode particularly for really slow links).   Unfortunately hyperterm doesn't have that mode.   I think the distinction is lost on most people.

    I believe the intent of the instructions to use HyperTerm and a serial cable was show the simplest possible method that avoids  any hassle with installing any special software.  Otherwise the instructions probably would have been install visa, etc. & going the USB route.

    Quote
    There is no need for the firmware in the DSO1502E to recognize 'backspace' and implement its behavior:
    the commands are most likely not for interactive use.

    Did you forget the smiley on that?   Thinking like that keeps all those virus writers & security vendors employed.

    Unfortunately, you are correct, it appears that the behavior isn't localized to just the undocument :INFO:set commands, it is in the general serial command parser, so you can't make a mistake typing any command.    I wouldn't be surprised if there was no bounds checking on the whole input buffer and it would just keep going until it smashed the stack.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: RayJones on April 10, 2010, 09:30:59 pm
    Ah yes, the good ol' buffer overrun error.

    You'll never see that problem in Microsoft products  ;) ;D
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: bushing on April 11, 2010, 06:11:57 am
    "but my FT2232D-based JTAG dongle is similar enough to http://docs.blackfin.uclinux.org/doku.php?id=hw:jtag:gnice that we might be able to just use their tools.   Hmmm..."
    thanx for d info, i think that will help alot. using just ftdi chip as JTAG. no extra mcu is needed. can u already poke the eeprom data out my bushing? since u already have the usb device?
    anyone knows where to buy this usb jtag?

    I haven't actually tried it yet, but I downloaded the BlackFin JTAG tools, and they're just bundling a version of urjtag, which should be able to support most FT2232-based devices.   I just need to get my scope open again and make an adapter cable...

    FWIW, I've compared the 02.02.04 firmware with the 02.02.02 firmware using one of the crudest methods imaginable -- run strings on both binaries, then opendiff the output from each.

    Most changes are boring, here are the ones that are remotely interesting:
    Code: [Select]
    Version number in header changed from "02.02.02.00" to "00.02.04.00" ... very odd

    A new block of text with hints of DS1204B support?
    Last two bytes in buffer = %x %x
    Warning:  No End_of_Image marker 0xFFD9 found
    Replacing last two bytes with EOI [0xffd9]
     Error in Interleave Format....Check
    DS1204B
    Rigol
    RIGOL Technologies, Inc.
    Screen Oscillograph
    Copyright (c) 2009 Rigol.
    Exif
    Unknown
    Adobe
    JFIF

    Added or changed commands:
    :MEMD? -> :MEMP?
    :MDEP?
    :MDEP
    :SRATE?
    :SRAT?

    :RAMO -> :RAM?
    :GAMOUNT?
    :GAM?

    Removed commands -- warning, there's not a lot you can infer from this. As you can see, there's a lot of duplication, so these commands may still exist elsewhere.
    *RIGOL *TEK
    :UNLOCK :UNL
    :FACTORY :FAC FACTORY

    :ACQUIRE :ACQ ACQUIRE
    :STATE STOP
    :MODE? :MOD? PEAKdetect AVErage SAMple :MODE :MOD SAMPLE AVERAGE PEAKDETECT PEAK
    :NUMAVG? :NUMAV? :NUMAVG :NUMAV
    :CH1
    :BANdWIDTH? :BAN? :BANDWIDTH :BAN
    :INVERT? :INV? :INVERT :INV
    :COUPLING? :COUP? :COUPLING :COUP
    :PROBE? :PRO? :PROBE :PRO
    :POSITION? :POS? :POSITION :POS
    :SCALE? :SCA? :SCALE :SCA :SELECT :SEL SELECT
    :CH1? :CH2 :CH2?
    :MATH :MATH?
    :CH2
    :BANdWIDTH? :BAN? :BANDWIDTH :BAN
    :INVERT? :INV? :INVERT :INV
    :COUPLING? :COUP? :COUPLING :COUP
    :PROBE? :PRO? :PROBE :PRO
    :POSITION? :POS? :POSITION :POS
    :SCALE? :SCA? :SCALE :SCA
    :DISPLAY :DIS DISPLAY
    :STYLE? :STY? DOTs VECtors :STYLE :STY DOTS VECTORS
    :PERSISTENCE? :PERS? :PERSISTENCE :PERS
    :INVERT? :INV? :INVERT :INV
    :FORMAT? :FORM? :FORMAT :FORM
    :MATH MATH
    :DEFINE HANNING RECTANGULAR RECT CH1+CH2 CH2+CH1 CH1-CH2 CH2-CH1 CH1*CH2 CH2*CH1
    :VERTICAL :VER :POSITION :POS :POSITION? :POS?
    :SCALE :SCAL :SCALE? :SCAL?
    :FFT
    :HORIZONTAL :HOR
    :VALUE? :VAL?
    PK2PK MAXIMUM MAXI MINIMUM MINI MEAN CRMS FREQUENCY FREQ PERIOD PERI RISE FALL PWIDTH NWIDTH
    :MEASUREMENT :MEASU MEASUREMENT MEASU
    :IMMED :IMM
    :SOURCE1 :SOU
    :TYPE :TYP
    :SOURCE
    MATH
    :DATA :DAT DATA
    :CURVE? :CURV?
    :WAVFRM? :WAVF?
    CURVE? CURV?
    WAVFRM? WAVF?
    :WAVEFORMANALYSIS WAVEFORMANALYSIS
    :SAVE :SAV SAVE
    :SETUP :SETU
    :WAVEFORM :WAVE
    :IMAGE :IMA
    :FILEFORMAT :FILEF
    :RECALL RECALL
    FACTORY *SAV *RCL
    :AUTOSET :AUTOS AUTOSET AUTOS
    EXECUTE EXEC
    :LANGUAGE? :LANG?
    LANGUAGE? LANG?
    KOREan JAPAnese ENGLish FRENch GERMan ITALian Russian SPANish PORTUguese
    :LANGUAGE :LANG LANGUAGE LANG
    SIMP TRAD KOREAN KORE JAPANESE JAPA ENGLISH ENGL FRENCH FREN GERMAM GERM ITALIAN ITAL RUSSIAN RUSS SPANISH SPAN PORTUGUESE PORTU
    :RS232 RS232 :BAUD? :BAU? :BAUD :BAU
    :CALIBRATE :CAL CALIBRATE
    :INTERNAL
    SIMPlifiedchines TRADitionalchinese SIMPLIFIEDCHINESE TRADITIONALCHINESE
    :HORIZONTAL :HOR HORIZONTAL
    :VIEW? MAIn WINDOW :VIEW MAIN
    :SCALE? :SECDIV? :SCA? :SEC? :SCALE :SECDIV :SCA :SEC
    :POSITION? :POS? :POSITION :POS
    :MAIN:MAI
    :DELAY :DEL
    :LEVEL? :LEV? :LEVEL :LEV
    :SOURCE? :SOU? ACLINE :SOURCE :SOU
    :MODE? :MOD? AUTO NORMal SINGLE :MODE:MOD NORMAL NORM
    :COUPLING? :COUP? HFRej LFRej :COUPLING :COUP HFREJ LFREJ
    :SLOPE? :SLO? FALL ALTERNATION RISe :SLOPE :SLO RISE
    :LEVEL? :LEV? :LEVEL :LEV :POLARITY? :POL? POSITIVe NEGAtive
    :WHEN? INside OUTside EQual
    :POLARITY :POL POSITIVE POSITIV NEGATIVE NEGA
    :WHEN INSIDE OUTSIDE EQUAL
    :SOURCE? :SOU? ACLINE :SOURCE :SOU
    :MODE? :MOD? AUTO NORMAL SINGLE :MODE :MOD NORM
    :WIDTH? :WID? :WIDTH :WID
    :TYPE? :TYP? EDGE PULse SLOPE VIDeo ALTERNATION PATTERN DURATION :TYPE :TYP PULSE VIDEO
    :HOLDOFF? :HOLDO? :HOLDOFF :HOLDO
    :VALUE? :VAL? :VALUE :VAL
    :TRIGGER :TRIG TRIGGER TRIG
    :STATE? SAVE WAIT SCAN AUTO ERROR FORCE FORC
    :MAIN :MAI
    SETLEVEL SETL
    :MODE? :MODE :MOD? :MOD
    :LEVEL? :LEVEL :LEV? :LEV
    :EDGE :PULSE :PUL :WIDTH :WID :VIDEO :VID
    :SOURCE? :SOU? :SOURCE :SOU
    :POLARITY? :POL? NORMal INVert :POLARITY :POL NORMAL NORM INVERT
    :STANDARD? :STAND? NTSc
    :STANDARD :STAND NTSC
    :SYNC? LINE EVEN :SYNC :LINE? :LINE

    Notably, the :INFO:MODEL and :INFO:SERIAL commands are still there, so if they don't work, they're enabled/disabled by some other means.

    A "typo" fix?
    "<<Press 'RUN/STOP' Key Three Times to Exit The Test>>" -> "<<Press 'RUN/STOP' Key three Times to Exit The Test>>"

    DSP code upgraded from v02.15 to v02.20
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: dimlow on April 11, 2010, 08:30:01 am
    i saw this in the firmware, "<<Press 'RUN/STOP' Key three Times to Exit The Test>>"
    i was just wondering what test it refers to, i don't think i have seen that message on the screen
    anyone else ?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on April 11, 2010, 08:38:57 am
    well I've read the entire manual and it say's nothing like that for using the scope during stand alone operation so it pertains exsclusively to computer connected applications
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Ferenczyg on April 11, 2010, 01:11:02 pm
    Hi all.

    For anyone interested, I received my DS1052E from dealextreme yesterday. It was requested march 28th and it has factory docs march 23th (or so it seems, its in chinese..). FW version is 02.02.02 sp2. No customs fee at all (Spain).

    Reading the pdf's included in the CD there are examples for coding in C and VB proggies for the pc that are sending commands to the osc. Maybe a little proggie that sends the rigth strings are the optimal solution for the softmod?. Sadly my experience in programming is not enough to try it :(

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on April 11, 2010, 01:26:55 pm
    you don't need any programming experience for the mod, if you read back to near the beginning of this thread you will find me asking a lot of dumb questions and a lot of information on the mod including full instructions. all you need is a pc (win XP as the M$ dodo's took hyperterminal off vista - or use a freeware hyperterminal program) and a straight serial cable - ie: not a crossed or null modem one. of course as it has emerged later there are other considerations so beware and don't hold me responsable but my scope works just fine
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rossmoffett on April 11, 2010, 04:40:32 pm
    If you don't have a serial cable, especially a rare female/female one, what I did is just wire from pins 2, 3 and 5 on the Rigol to pins 2, 3 and 5 on the PC.  I used some female pins we had for cable-making, you could also probably safely use heat shrink to temporarily make contact with a wire end.  You can't make it longer than about a meter though, or you can expect failures due to noise.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: drieg on April 11, 2010, 07:42:31 pm
    @dimlow and shafri
    I believe the solution for you could be to dump binary file with correct data to serial port (e.g. with realterm). The idea is to rewrite corrupted fields in the same way how they got corrupted, i.e.  :INFO:MODEL <correct bin data> <LF>
    When I have time, I'll do some tests and let you know if this could be the way...

    @bushing and especially shafri
    JTAG: Please do not do any experiments with JTAG interface unless you exactly know what you are doing. You need to know CPU's surroundings very well before you can make use of it. As the attached flash exceeds cpu's address space, some signals are generated inside Lattice CPLD. You won't be able to read the flash unless you know how. Easier to use external programmer at this point.

    @bushing
    JTAG/SPI: The SPI PCB-connector is quite new to Rigol scopes (only some recent scopes have it) and there is need to write more unit-specific data into flash than just model and sn info (what commands allows you). That's the reason why they must use JTAG in final phase of production...

    Could you upload 02.02.04 firmware somwhere?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Ferenczyg on April 12, 2010, 03:00:27 am
    you don't need any programming experience for the mod, if you read back to near the beginning of this thread you will find me asking a lot of dumb questions and a lot of information on the mod including full instructions. all you need is a pc (win XP as the M$ dodo's took hyperterminal off vista - or use a freeware hyperterminal program) and a straight serial cable - ie: not a crossed or null modem one. of course as it has emerged later there are other considerations so beware and don't hold me responsable but my scope works just fine

    Hi Simon

    I am aware of the serial link method, in fact that was the reason to buy the scope. I was ready to take the serial way until the 'other considerations' you are mentioning appeared. From that moment I've just checked that my scope is able to be softmodded via rs232 and stopped because I really do not need the additional features by now.  But just as an alternate way to avoid f*cking whatever I am just asking/suggesting if making a proggie that sends the strings as ultrascope send commands could be a safer way.

    In any case the 'old' method documentation, including David's video is well kept in a directory of my HD for when it can be needed.

    /F
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on April 12, 2010, 06:32:25 am
    well mine went off without a hitch but if your in doubt then hold fire till you want a fasrer scope
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: wd5gnr on April 13, 2010, 12:47:53 pm
    Argh... from Deal Extreme this morning:

    Dear customer,

    Sorry for keeping you waiting so long.

    Kindly inform you that we are afraid your order has been put on hold as the item you ordered has stopped in production.Would you like to change it into another similar item or cancel it and get the refund?Please advise.

    Thank you for your understanding and patience.

    ###

    You can imagine they are reflashing existing inventory :-(
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: darkith on April 13, 2010, 02:14:31 pm
    Strange...
    Yesterday they had it marked as backordered (April 30th I think).  Now it shows as shipping in 18 days on May 1st, but not "out of stock" liked I'd expect.

    Shrug.  They also dropped the price to $389 (from $404 IIRC).

    D.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Waifian on April 13, 2010, 02:17:45 pm
    That is very weird... I got mine for $389 from Dealexcel but it didn't go on back order and I was still able to mod it. This was several weeks back however.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Miroslav on April 13, 2010, 02:30:32 pm
    I've got the same from DX folks. On my question what's going on with my order, yesterday they responded with

    "Dear customer:
    we are informed that sku30573 will be in stock after 17th April. would you like to wait few days with pateicne?? we will try our best to help you
    regards
    selina"

    and this morning I woke up with the update:

    "Dear customer,
    Sorry for keeping you waiting so long.
    Kindly inform you that we are afraid your order has been put on hold as the item you ordered has stopped in production.Would you like to change it into another similar item or cancel it and get the refund?Please advise.
    Thank you for your understanding and patience.
    Best regards,
    charlene"
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: stardust on April 13, 2010, 07:23:10 pm
    Hi folks,

    tonight I searched for a good scope, stumbled over this hack and ordered the DS1052E, immediately :-)

    The remaining question is:

    IF I should get one with the FW 2.04 installed, can I downgrade it to 2.02 and WHERE can I get the FW 2.02???
    (Sorry, I read the whole important part of this thread, but did not find the answer to this question...)

    Kind Regards from germany,
    Steve
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on April 13, 2010, 07:27:43 pm
    Just to make you all aware as i've been fidling about with my scope tonight, I'm sure it is valid for most readouts (on the measure menu) but I was looking at rise and fall times, the true value seemed to be 10 nS but if I had too many waveforms on the screen and so the rises and falls were not so noticeable the scope made an error and said they were 20 nS, I had to "zoom in" to the point where a rise was well over a div to make sure it was accurate.

    just thought I'd mention it, as with analog scopes: know you equipment !
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: bushing on April 14, 2010, 05:15:36 am
    @bushing and especially shafri
    JTAG: Please do not do any experiments with JTAG interface unless you exactly know what you are doing. You need to know CPU's surroundings very well before you can make use of it. As the attached flash exceeds cpu's address space, some signals are generated inside Lattice CPLD. You won't be able to read the flash unless you know how. Easier to use external programmer at this point.

    Hm, okay.  I'll probably skip the external programmer, because it seems like desoldering the flash chip (even with the proper equipment) posts some risk of damaging the unit, and I don't really have much to gain from doing it.   If anyone else dumps the flash, I'd be happy to look at the contents :D

    @bushing
    JTAG/SPI: The SPI PCB-connector is quite new to Rigol scopes (only some recent scopes have it) and there is need to write more unit-specific data into flash than just model and sn info (what commands allows you). That's the reason why they must use JTAG in final phase of production...

    Could you upload 02.02.04 firmware somwhere?

    The presence of the BMODE pin on that SPI PCB-connector makes it seem like it's meant to allow an alternate firmware source (SPI flash) to be connected there, and that firmware could program everything else -- doesn't seem like anything else would be required.  But ... there are a lot of mysteries here, so I'm just guessing ... don't mind me. :)

    Someone else on this forum was kind enough to send me the firmware when I asked about it here; I bet they will be just as kind to you, if you haven't heard from anyone in a couple of days let me know and I'll go and poke someone about it.

    what external programmer are you talking about? isnt that JTAG programmer is a external prorammer? thanx 4 the precaution.

    No, he means something like http://www.xeltek.com/product.php?productid=17207.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: flolic on April 14, 2010, 07:10:12 am
    ...but I was looking at rise and fall times, the true value seemed to be 10 nS but if I had too many waveforms on the screen and so the rises and falls were not so noticeable the scope made an error and said they were 20 nS, I had to "zoom in" to the point where a rise was well over a div to make sure it was accurate.

    IMHO, that's perfectly normal.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on April 14, 2010, 11:33:40 am
    yes I thought so but I'm sure a few will not be aware of it, essentially the scope is a low resolution device, it will measure what you see, so if you can't see it the scope cannot measure it accurately
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: TheDirty on April 15, 2010, 09:25:06 pm
    Done.  Thanks to everyone that worked on this.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: shtoz on April 16, 2010, 11:34:13 am
    Hi
    Has anybody 02.02.04 firmware?

    Reprogram from 1052 to 1102 by RS232 works fine, thanks guys!
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on April 16, 2010, 11:48:28 am
    What is this talking about FW 02.02.04 as long as we talk about Rigol DS1000E series socilloscopes?

    Please give clear information if someone have seen 02.02.04 in 1000E series.

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: EEVblog on April 16, 2010, 01:43:08 pm
    Please give clear information if someone have seen 02.02.04 in 1000E series.

    Someone was given this firmware by Rigol as being the "latest". No reports of seeing it in actual shipped units yet.

    Dave.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: serif on April 16, 2010, 09:21:49 pm
    but the system info screen now shows model as 123456789123456789123456789123456789123456789123456789
    and the serial no surprisingly is now showing DS10000001

    if i do another *idn? after a reboot i still get the same as above, so I'm now thinking the serial that is displayed on screen, is not stored as a string but is decoded from the string you send it. but still that string is stored and retrieved from memory when you do *idn? or :info:serial?

    Hi, just noticed that I probably have about the same problem as dimlow.
    I got that same S/N after it broke, but changing S/N works, and is storable.

    The model no. is corrupted, and on the status screen the display is distorted,
    a ~8px wide white noise band from left to right over whole screen, about where the model appears.
    Can't see if there are any letters behind.

    When i run *IDN? i get the serial also as model number. When i run :INFO:MODEL? i get nothing,
    and if I remember correctly, the serial interfaces stops working until after reboot.

    When i try to set the model number it stays in some volatile memory until after reboot. It shows in *IDN?
    But it still doesn't show in :INFO:MODEL?
    (so it seems I could not write to that position in memory at all anymore, via rs232)

    I seem to have no other problems, and can live with it, but if someone manages to dump a complete working firmware, and figure
    out how to overwrite the existing one, I'd love to hear about it.

    Stupid me should have made a good cup of coffee before starting to hack.  :P At least it's not totally bricked.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: dimlow on April 16, 2010, 11:03:56 pm
    No, No, that was not the problem, I can change the serial and Model Number to what ever i want and it will stick just fine. I can convert between DS1052E and DS1102E easy. What you are quoting is from a test i ran, nothing more.

    But yes to the noise issue, and the voltage offsets when switching ranges. I have that problem. Still though ? im not sure is this is a hardware problem or a problem with changing the serial/model number. Unless someone does come up with a Flash dump that i can load into the scope, we will never know.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: tecman on April 16, 2010, 11:53:09 pm
    Got my scope this week.  Only took about 10 days, $ 447

    Did the convert w/RS232.  Ver 02.02.02 SP2  Info screen shows 1102E, but max horiz is still 5 nS.

    Anybody experience this ?  Convert back and redo ?

    paul

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: dimlow on April 16, 2010, 11:56:37 pm
    Should be DS1102E !!! not 1102E
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rossmoffett on April 17, 2010, 12:00:21 am
    Be sure you convert your serial information also, the prefix is essential.. follow Dave's directions exactly.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: tecman on April 17, 2010, 12:43:47 am
    All syntax, spelling, etc is correct (I was just abbreviating in the post).

    paul
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rossmoffett on April 17, 2010, 02:52:21 am
    So you've done the changes in the same order as in Dave's video and as described in this forum post, and the model number sticks even after you cycle power on the unit?  In that case, you might be unique..
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on April 17, 2010, 05:35:49 am
     In that case, you might be unique..

    Not unique. I have report this problem at 30. March.


    Day ago I get new DS1052E from China.
    Command modification did NOT work as before!
    I have try with many variations how to do.

    With these units what I have before all goes ok.

    I have not yet find solution with these new. If I try as before, display go sometimes "black" and only button what make anything is power ON/OFF. After this scope continues as DS1052E (serial number it (sometimes) keep as I type it, but it return to 1052). Some times there is only white random scratch over model number row from left to right over display.) One time it was totally difficult to return so that system display was ok.

    FW with these new are exactly same 020202

    Only difference what I can see is different start of serial number after letters. (first 4 digits... maybe these are some "prefix" what indicate some product revisions?

    So I think we need continue more public discussions to push factory make good stop for modifications. We can teach them to do hack proof scopes. Maybe they make nearly "waterproof" next revision. (or this what I have now is just this).


    Most good think what ever can do is that Dave take off this hack video becouse we do not really know what are different rev's scope. Of course everyone can make what ever "fun"videos but....
    I think it is better to give public "how to do" information after really know more than just one own machine. Minimum is tell some kind of warning that it may be possible that it do not work for all units at all but it can also damage machine so that it is nearly difficult to find solution for take back. (It maybe can but not everyone maybe can do it). Peoples need also think responsibility littlebit more before put faces to all places and tell some information to peoples. But this is not how professional peoples do.

    My recommendation is: Do NOT believe any of these hack instructions for your individual Rigol DS1052E.
    If scope fails becouse hack, do NOT send damaged machines to Rigol warranty service, send them to guy who give instructions for hack.



    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on April 17, 2010, 05:46:42 am
    Please give clear information if someone have seen 02.02.04 in 1000E series.

    Someone was given this firmware by Rigol as being the "latest". No reports of seeing it in actual shipped units yet.

    Dave.

    I have not see any kind of  information for this. Please give some data for this, if it not just garbage information. Some tell that some friend tell and some see something and what ever.....  as long as there is not more information I think this is lie or disinformation.
    Please give me true data, what Rigol organization and to who give FW 00.02.02.04 as new FW to Rigol DS1052E. (OR series DS1000E)

    If there is not this true information then please tell that there are not any knowledge about new firmware after 00.02.02.02 (02.02.SP2)



    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: serif on April 17, 2010, 06:43:54 am
    Should add that I downgraded to 00.02.01.01 then back to 00.02.02.02, and it did not make any difference to me. (Found files in RC Groups thread)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: dimlow on April 17, 2010, 07:11:56 am
    Please give clear information if someone have seen 02.02.04 in 1000E series.

    Someone was given this firmware by Rigol as being the "latest". No reports of seeing it in actual shipped units yet.

    Dave.

    I have not see any kind of  information for this. Please give some data for this, if it not just garbage information. Some tell that some friend tell and some see something and what ever.....  as long as there is not more information I think this is lie or disinformation.
    Please give me true data, what Rigol organization and to who give FW 00.02.02.04 as new FW to Rigol DS1052E. (OR series DS1000E)

    If there is not this true information then please tell that there are not any knowledge about new firmware after 00.02.02.02 (02.02.SP2)





    Im guessing with that kind of attitude the person that has the firmware would not want to give it to you. Maybe if you asked nicely then things would be different. Certainly if i was the person with the firmware id keep it from you!
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: EEVblog on April 17, 2010, 07:25:28 am
    I have not see any kind of  information for this. Please give some data for this, if it not just garbage information. Some tell that some friend tell and some see something and what ever.....  as long as there is not more information I think this is lie or disinformation.
    Please give me true data, what Rigol organization and to who give FW 00.02.02.04 as new FW to Rigol DS1052E. (OR series DS1000E)

    If there is not this true information then please tell that there are not any knowledge about new firmware after 00.02.02.02 (02.02.SP2)

    Watch EEVblog #77 coming shortly. I upgrade my scope to 2.04 and downgrade etc. The firmware exists.

    Dave.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on April 17, 2010, 12:32:35 pm
    great and it retains the new model number doesn't it ?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: EEVblog on April 17, 2010, 02:29:15 pm
    great and it retains the new model number doesn't it ?

    Yep, and video is now up.
    Upgrade and downgrade as many times as you like and it always keeps the model number.

    Dave.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: tecman on April 17, 2010, 02:50:51 pm
    Anyone got a link to 2.04 ?

    paul
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on April 17, 2010, 03:16:28 pm
    What are differencies between FW 0202SP2 and 0204?

    always reading "detect lower version software ...." ??

    same text if you upgrade to 02.04 or "down" to 02.02.SP2 ... strange?

    As long as there is not any confirmation from Rigol factory or other trusted source I can only think this is some kind of joke.
    Of course my opinion change just after there is some trusted (official) information about 02.04 FW upgrade to DS1000E series. ;)



    (http://i969.photobucket.com/albums/ae171/Xie_07/Clipboard01.jpg)



    In video I can not see this. Why?

    maybe they sell different scopes to different part of world..hehe



    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: bushing on April 17, 2010, 10:53:06 pm
    bushing: "No, he means something like http://www.xeltek.com/product.php?productid=17207."
    oou. thats seem like a "parallel programmer" Dave talked about in his video. that would be completely dismantling the flash out of the board right? sorry, but i have to find another way around, i dont wanna risk with messing the flash hardware. this will be my last choice, if i cant find another way. and oou, the price is $995, wow, i can buy an authentic DS1102D with that (just add a little $$$). so it seem my last choice will be to buy a new rigol DSO or MSO. :) . thanx for the info though

    You can call it by a number of different names, but something like a JTAG probe where you plug something into a PCB and program a flash chip while it is in the normal circuit is usually called an "in-circuit programmer"; I could see someone calling that an "internal programmer".  Something where you have to completely remove the flash chip would seem like the opposite of that; whether it uses parallel or serial is just an implementation detail.  Put differently,

    JTAG probe:in-circuit programmer :: parallel programmer:external programmer

    (At least, this is the best I can guess, given that we have people from all over the planet participating in this discussion. :))
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: EEVblog on April 18, 2010, 01:28:44 am
    As long as there is not any confirmation from Rigol factory or other trusted source I can only think this is some kind of joke.
    Of course my opinion change just after there is some trusted (official) information about 02.04 FW upgrade to DS1000E series. ;)

    AFAIK Rigol have never freely given out their firmware updates unless you ask specifically, so I suspect you won't find it on their website any time soon, or a formal announcement.
    Why don't you go and ask them?

    Dave.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on April 18, 2010, 06:31:02 am
    I would think that the new firmware does not add any product improvements and was just to try and stop the hack ?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on April 18, 2010, 07:13:33 am
    As long as there is not any confirmation from Rigol factory or other trusted source I can only think this is some kind of joke.
    Of course my opinion change just after there is some trusted (official) information about 02.04 FW upgrade to DS1000E series. ;)

    AFAIK Rigol have never freely given out their firmware updates unless you ask specifically, so I suspect you won't find it on their website any time soon, or a formal announcement.
    Why don't you go and ask them?

    Dave.

    I ask you becouse you are only who have publish this "new firmware". :)

    And becouse update process show different as in Rigol upgrade note. (rigol note tell that it regognize if you are upgrading to up or down. But your video can not see text in scope display about upgrade to more new... )

    I think if you publish something new info I can ask you some data about this publication.

    Rigol is not right place to ask what is behind your publication.

    I try ask agen from you. If you do not understand question please ask what I mean.
    Do you have see ANY document or proofment that Rigol have make new FW to DS1000E series after 00.02.02.SP2? If you have, what?

    I have not seen any info, not any Rigol scope with factory installed this new FW, not any information from Rigol, also you have not tell anything about this new FW source. Its truth value is absolutely just garbage as long as there is not any kind of proofment about this FW.
    Everybody can change this version number. It takes just some seconds. So how you know (or is it believe) it is real FW Upgrade? I ask you becouse you are only who have published this and you are anly person who know some more truth about this. Only what I have seen is some short time ago official sides (Rigol China) and there was downloadable FW 00.02.02.SP2 and this was free open public place. This time now there is not any FW upgrade for DS1000E.

    Ask Rigol... ask Rigol what EEVblog do? Or what?

    I think it is better to ask EEVblog (Dave) what EEVblog (Dave) do.
    You will be authenticated by what you publish. This is normal practice for this kind of things.



    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on April 18, 2010, 07:26:41 am
    As long as there is not any confirmation from Rigol factory or other trusted source I can only think this is some kind of joke.
    Of course my opinion change just after there is some trusted (official) information about 02.04 FW upgrade to DS1000E series. ;)

    AFAIK Rigol have never freely given out their firmware updates unless you ask specifically, so I suspect you won't find it on their website any time soon, or a formal announcement.
    Why don't you go and ask them?

    Dave.

    I suggest you learn some english first, you have clearly not understood dave and are now basically accusing him of producing his own firmware and claiming that it is rigols !

    you need to contact Rigol
    tell them you model number and serial number and ask for the latest firmware. they will email it to you

    I ask you becouse you are only who have publish this "new firmware". :)

    And becouse update process show different as in Rigol upgrade note. (rigol note tell that it regognize if you are upgrading to up or down. But your video can not see text in scope display about upgrade to more new... )

    I think if you publish something new info I can ask you some data about this publication.

    Rigol is not right place to ask what is behind your publication.

    I try ask agen from you. If you do not understand question please ask what I mean.
    Do you have see ANY document or proofment that Rigol have make new FW to DS1000E series after 00.02.02.SP2? If you have, what?

    I have not seen any info, not any Rigol scope with factory installed this new FW, not any information from Rigol, also you have not tell anything about this new FW source. Its truth value is absolutely just garbage as long as there is not any kind of proofment about this FW.
    Everybody can change this version number. It takes just some seconds. So how you know (or is it believe) it is real FW Upgrade? I ask you becouse you are only who have published this and you are anly person who know some more truth about this. Only what I have seen is some short time ago official sides (Rigol China) and there was downloadable FW 00.02.02.SP2 and this was free open public place. This time now there is not any FW upgrade for DS1000E.

    Ask Rigol... ask Rigol what EEVblog do? Or what?

    I think it is better to ask EEVblog (Dave) what EEVblog (Dave) do.
    You will be authenticated by what you publish. This is normal practice for this kind of things.




    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: EEVblog on April 18, 2010, 10:58:31 am
    @RF-LOOP
    I have explained this before.
    I got the firmware from a viewer who got it directly from Rigol. I have no reason to doubt that the viewer and the firmware are genuine. The viewer was having issues with their scope and Rigol gave them the latest firmware to see if that would fix the issue.

    You can doubt it all you like, I just present what I know and what I have been given and what is presumably available.
    2.04 might not be the official version, I don't know, but it does prove that newer versions of the firmware have the fix in place to stop the hack, and that was the whole point.

    Dave.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: tecman on April 18, 2010, 01:10:22 pm
    An update. 

    I restored the model/SN back to original.  Info screen all looked good, etc. for 1052E   I then re-applied the hack.  The info screen shows the model and s/n correct (as hacked) "DS1EB...", but still not able to get horiz faster than 5 nS.

    Could there be a HW check in newer models ?

    My s/n is 121303000

    paul
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on April 18, 2010, 01:31:49 pm
    but are you using a fast rise signal to do the test ? you will only get the 3.5 nS rise time if the actual rise time of your signal is 3.5 nS or less
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: tecman on April 18, 2010, 02:15:19 pm
    My update continues.  I discovered that on the info screen it was listed as 1102E and not DS1102E.  Using the :INFO:MODEL command, I was unable to get the DS.. to stick.  It took several times of rolling back to DS1052E with the appropriate s/n change back, and reapplying the hack, but finally it all went well.  Now it displays DS1102E and finally 2 nS sweep is working.  Last I upgraded to 2.04

    All is good today

    paul
     
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: embedded on April 18, 2010, 06:06:11 pm
    May I suggest as many people as possible download the firmware at rcgroups.

    "Contains firmware updates from July'09 for the 1000D and 1000E Rigol scopes. Along with an instructional PDF from 2008. To avoid problems, please check with Rigol to ensure your scope S/N is compatible, before updating."

    Please repost outside the US. ;)

    (Naturally A number of people will have this downloaded for later use perhaps in a country like Canada.)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on April 19, 2010, 04:56:37 am
    I will thank you (dimlow) share it in RC.

    Before (example SP2 version) there can not find (I can not find) Rigol model number 1204B inside FW file. Now there is.

    (of course also lot of other differencies)

    ;)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: dimlow on April 19, 2010, 06:24:06 am
    You weren't supposed to look there! ;D Go put it back. :o
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: wd5gnr on April 19, 2010, 01:53:33 pm
    My Russian is none too good, so Google translate had... um,... amusing results.

    earthen crocodile

    I assume is a grounded alligator clip. That reminds me of when our reports to Japan said the conductor was shorted and the translation was the conductor was not tall.


    My DS1052E should be here Wed and -- of course -- I have a late appointment Wed :-(

    Riko on eBay is having a "special" and told me to put $432 in the make offer box, so that was what I paid (free UPS shipping in the US). A little more than Deal Extreme, but they were back ordering and I'm betting the next scope from DX has unupgradable firmware. Yes, yes, that's speculation mind you. But the fact that DX told several of us "production has stopped" makes me think they are blowing out distribution with the special and then will start moving "locked" scopes when they start shipping again.

    Same think happened, I think, with the ZeroPlus Logic Cube logic analyzer. They made the FPGA ground all inputs not allowed for the model. Too bad I missed that one :-)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: saturation on April 19, 2010, 06:29:38 pm
    Dave really has me sold on the capacity of this scope.  I still use my old Trio 5 MHz analog scope I used in the 1980s.

    Can anyone confirm what Dave mentions in the video:

    That shipments of the Rigel are on HOLD, pending Rigel applying a firmware fix so it cannot be hacked into the 100 MHz version?

     :(
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: angelo on April 19, 2010, 06:47:24 pm
    I ordered from www.getbetterlife.com on the 9th and received it this afternoon (19th...10 days total, 3 in customs) to Canada. They had a large volume of stock when I asked so I suggest you try them. They are very cheap, $386 but you have to pay $53 for EMS shipping and it comes to about $414 CAD. Anyways they packed it very, very professionally in a lot of bubble wrap, Styrofoam etc. They are currently shipping 2.02 SP2.  I tried the scope out and it seems to function perfectly, Have not tried hack yet, but since I don't have need of the 100Mhz I will hold off for a bit. Rigol and deal extreme may have stopped shipments but those re-sellers with back-stock may still sell them.

    Even though getbetterlife mostly sells tattoo and nail salon stuff they sell oscilloscopes as well haha....they were very responsive to my emails and seem pretty legit in my opinion.

    jump on it if you dont want to miss out
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: clonecrp on April 20, 2010, 02:38:47 am
    Hi ! Do you have links to the Rigol FW + Docs?

    Thanks! Doug
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: bushing on April 20, 2010, 09:17:32 am
    My Russian is none too good, so Google translate had... um,... amusing results.

    Mine's a bit rusty, but I'll see if I can clean up Google's work a bit:

    Quote
    Yesterday, Sasha (aka Alex_lv) and I worked on hacking a Rigol DS1052E into a DS1102E.  We used test signal generators (Tektronix SG503, Tektronix PG506) and 50-ohm load (by Tektronix), all controlled by a Tektronix 2567A.  In general, everything is working adequately with the Rigol (except of course the implementation of sinx / x).  It's a nice little machine with 00.02.02 SP2 installed.

    The band at -3dB 146MHz has a rise time of 2.4 ... 2.48ns (at rise-time generator, <1ns), a fall-time of 5ns (the generator's fall-time is not normalized, the 2467 shows 5ns), if one takes the inverted signal from PG506 (Fast Rise Output Falling) the fall-time is  2.4 ... 2.48ns. The internal frequency counter can make mistakes in the last digit (depending on the shape of the signal) was also observed with a bug, sometimes it can show exactly twice the frequency, compared to the standard Fluke PM6685.

    [...]
    As well as sweat for all the leads that came to hand [?!], all the probes are compensated, measured with a needle to minimize inductance and get the correct results but also from the grounded alligatr clip in order to see how it affects the inductance for each of the probe.
    (Actually, it *does* literally say "grounded crocodile!"!)


    Same think happened, I think, with the ZeroPlus Logic Cube logic analyzer. They made the FPGA ground all inputs not allowed for the model. Too bad I missed that one :-)

    Sort of.  I think it's coincidence, the "reaction" was too quick when you're talking about modifying actual chips.   You can still extend the sample depth to 128 Ksamples (in software), and I've even extended it to 2Msamples/channel by replacing the SRAM chip -- see http://lostscrews.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=84
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on April 20, 2010, 11:23:39 am
    Are there any information about FW 02.04 changes after 02.02.SP2
    What I can see there is some change in DSP module: rev 2.15 => 2.20

    Do anybody know anything about DS1000E series factory / service calibration procedure. (I do not mean normal end user selfcal)
    How to start this procedure etc...  End users "service manual" do not tell anything about it. (of course).

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: shtoz on April 20, 2010, 05:25:58 pm
    bushing, not bad translation :)
    Quote
    As well as sweat for all the leads that came to hand [?!]
    I tested all probes floating around me :)
    Test was with and without ground lead.
    Yesterday i try 02.04, LCD refresh rate is bigger, nothing else, sinx/x problem nor resolved.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on April 20, 2010, 05:37:01 pm
    02.04 give faster screen updates ? the 02.02 firmaware is horibly slow above 100mS/div
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: RayJones on April 21, 2010, 08:07:08 am
    Um, 100ms/div would take 1.2 second just to capture the data with 12 divisions shown (hiding the menu)......
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: wd5gnr on April 22, 2010, 01:04:17 am
    Another success story with the .02 firmware. Works great. Now I'll be motivated to fix all that stuff I've been putting off.

    The only problem I've run into is that XP running in Virtual Box doesn't want to load the Rigol USB drivers. Not sure if it is because I had National Instruments driver (which finds the scope by the way) or if it some weirdness with VirtualBox/Linux. But regardless I'm not so keen on Ultrascope anyway.

    Thanks for the videos Dave.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: TheDirty on April 22, 2010, 02:54:18 am
    Is there an alternative to Ultrascope or 64bit drivers for it?  Running Win7 64bit and there is only 32bit drivers provided.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: marianoapp on April 22, 2010, 03:41:20 am
    download and install this http://joule.ni.com/nidu/cds/view/p/id/1605/lang/en (http://joule.ni.com/nidu/cds/view/p/id/1605/lang/en)

    you can also mod the scope through usb with that
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: RayJones on April 22, 2010, 07:58:07 am
    361 MB  :o
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: wd5gnr on April 22, 2010, 11:57:37 am
    I did some more experimenting with Ultrascope last night. The VID/PID for the Rigol looks different on my VirtualBox setup. I changed the .inf file to suit and it allowed the drivers to load and I see the scope in device manager. However, Ultrascope never did work. RS232 doesn't work either (although in Linux the usbtmc interface works so the scope works).

    So I tried it on a dual boot laptop with Vista. At first didn't work until I loaded the right version of the VISA drivers. But even then it didn't work right. The "Virtual Panel" works well. But trying to load a waveform to a datasheet causes the program to disconnect from the scope and tells me "Unable to read data from device" or some such.

    Ultrascope isn't a deal breaker. But it bugs me that I can't make it work. And the virtual panel is reasonable enough. However, if I were going to really use it I need it to work under Linux or Windows in Virtual Box and that looks like a no go.

    I'm surprised COMEDI doesn't support usbtmc (http://www.comedi.org/). If it did, you could use xoscope under Linux. I haven't found any "scope-like" software that talks usbtmc on Linux which seems odd.

    Oh one other thing. On the Linux/VirtualBox side, the scope shows RMT so it hears the PC. It just doesn't work well enough to connect. Why it doesn't work with serial though is a mystery. I haven't found anything else that would not work across serial in VirtualBox. I'll have to experiment with that more later.

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: TheDirty on April 22, 2010, 01:42:41 pm
    download and install this http://joule.ni.com/nidu/cds/view/p/id/1605/lang/en (http://joule.ni.com/nidu/cds/view/p/id/1605/lang/en)

    you can also mod the scope through usb with that

    Thanks a lot.  That worked.

    361 MB  :o
    It comes with a whole load of crap that you don't actually need to install.  A lot of development support and examples.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: RayJones on April 22, 2010, 09:18:07 pm

    361 MB  :o
    It comes with a whole load of crap that you don't actually need to install.  A lot of development support and examples.

    Yeah, but that's a bit like closing the gate after the horse has bolted.

    You still have to download 361MB to get the piddling driver... NONSENSE
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: wd5gnr on April 23, 2010, 02:13:11 am
    Hey I noticed something. On 2.02SP2 or whatever if you held a button down for a few seconds it would pop up a help screen on that button's feature. In 2.04 that seems to be gone? Or is there some other reason that quit working I wonder? It still looks like it is trying to load something the first time but it doesn't work.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: wd5gnr on April 23, 2010, 02:26:00 am
    download and install this http://joule.ni.com/nidu/cds/view/p/id/1605/lang/en (http://joule.ni.com/nidu/cds/view/p/id/1605/lang/en)

    you can also mod the scope through usb with that

    So what exactly comes off of there? I was experimenting with this -- when I let the Rigol device get installed as an NI Test instrument the NI tools can find it (yep, even under VirtualBox) but there's no "scope" unless you write something in LabView (and even then it wouldn't really be a real scope). But with the Rigol drivers Ultrascope "sees" it but can't complete the operation to connect (in VirtualBox/XP; in Vista it works except for Data Sheets).

    Duh, nevermind its the VISAxxx.DLL file I guess. So interesting that the NI usbtmc driver runs ok in XP on VirtualBox but the Rigol driver does not.


    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: wd5gnr on April 23, 2010, 03:59:19 am
    Hey I noticed something. On 2.02SP2 or whatever if you held a button down for a few seconds it would pop up a help screen on that button's feature. In 2.04 that seems to be gone? Or is there some other reason that quit working I wonder? It still looks like it is trying to load something the first time but it doesn't work.

    I just reflashed 2.02 and verified that the help messages come back. I wonder if 2.04 is "unreleased" and has no localized help or something? On the other hand, who needs help on a scope? ;-) But I couldn't resist finding out. I didn't see much difference between 2.04 and 2.02 other than "flashability".
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: wd5gnr on April 23, 2010, 11:48:31 am
    Well big senior moment. I had reported earlier that I could not get the scope to work in VirtualBox and Linux. But it does work...if you get the right software.

    There were three things that were key, I think. Hopefully this will help someone else:


    1) Latest NI Drivers: http://joule.ni.com/nidu/cds/view/p/id/1605/lang/en

    2) The Rigol USB drivers have the wrong USB ID or something on Linux is changing the ID (vendor=1ab1,pid=0588 in Linux/VirtualBox, the Rigol.inf file vendor=0400,PID=05dc). Of course, I was so smart, I changed the INF file and got it mostly working. WRONG. Use the NI driver. What that means is in Device manager, it should say "USB Test and Measurement Device" *NOT* "Rigol USB Test and Measurement Device". If you already have the Rigol drive installed, do an update driver, tell it to Install from a list and "Don't search I will choose the driver to install." If you have the NI stuff installed you should see two choices: Rigol USB Test and Measurement Device and USB Test and Measurement Device. You want the one WITHOUT Rigol in the name.

    3) The VISA version of Ultrascope (this was my big mistake, using the "regular" version). See http://www.rigol.com/templates/T_Support_en/resources.aspx?nodeid=639&contentid=1582. Even on a "plain" Vista install the regular version had small issues.

    Of course, for Virtualbox, you need to go to the Devices menu and "connect" the Rigol USB device (this one will say Rigol and that's ok). You can also change your setup to add it automatically, but I'm going to assume you know how to do that.

    Of course, I probably will never use the software but I wanted to make it work. I'm funny that way as are, I bet, a lot of us.


     8)
    Cool!

    P.S. Screen shot at http://www.hotsolder.com/2010/04/rigol-ultrascope-under-linux-with-virtualbox.html
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: birlan97 on April 23, 2010, 09:25:43 pm
    May I suggest as many people as possible download the firmware at rcgroups.

    "Contains firmware updates from July'09 for the 1000D and 1000E Rigol scopes. Along with an instructional PDF from 2008. To avoid problems, please check with Rigol to ensure your scope S/N is compatible, before updating."

    Please repost outside the US. ;)

    (Naturally A number of people will have this downloaded for later use perhaps in a country like Canada.)

    Where I found this firmware - I'd like to modify mine to DS1102E and with my current firmware I can't
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: wd5gnr on April 25, 2010, 02:05:52 pm
    Can't prove this, mind you, but I have two anecdotal reports of people trying to do the upgrade and it would not "take" solving the problem by making sure the scope was on the system information page before they performed the upgrade. Now, of course, with just two samples it could just be random. But I did mine from the system info screen and it "took" the first time. I know on the 2.04/2.02 video demo, Dave does it from the system info screen.

    So not scientific but if you are having trouble with it "taking", maybe try that. Like I say may have been the resolution to two other people who had that problem.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: vr2whf on May 02, 2010, 07:32:31 pm
    Just spot a difference in the analog front-end between DS1052E and DS1102E

    http://img198.imageshack.us/i/rigol1052vs1102.jpg/

    According to the picture provided by this guy, the primary difference is the DS1102E uses the B3GA4.5Z relay to replace the smaller relay COSMO Y214S used by DS1052E.

    I don't know if there is any performance difference in these analog front-end circuits.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: mxmxmx on May 02, 2010, 07:57:27 pm
    Just spot a difference in the analog front-end between DS1052E and DS1102E

    However I wonder whether this is really a difference between the DS1052E and the DS1102E or merely a difference between hardware (sub)revisions. If Rigol really made the effort to build different frontends for the scopes why didn't they hardwire the band-pass that defines the bandwidth? It makes no sense to me having frontends with different hardware on the one hand but on the other hand implementing the model selection via software.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rossmoffett on May 03, 2010, 06:48:05 am
    Just spot a difference in the analog front-end between DS1052E and DS1102E

    http://img198.imageshack.us/i/rigol1052vs1102.jpg/

    According to the picture provided by this guy, the primary difference is the DS1102E uses the B3GA4.5Z relay to replace the smaller relay COSMO Y214S used by DS1052E.

    I don't know if there is any performance difference in these analog front-end circuits.

    We've known about that for quite some time.  :-)

    I know the thread is long, but it's in here.  My DS1052E has the same parts as the DS1102E, it's a later revision than Dave's (pictured) scope.  If you look far enough, you'll see that I drew up a schematic of what I believed the difference was at the time, and later another user corrected things I had missed.  There is a filter with a diode cutoff.. using two control voltages the filter can either be enabled or disabled by reverse biasing the diode or not.  This user even tested the control voltages before/after modification and verified that this is the sole control on the analog front-end (I believe).  He was the first person to do the software mod by serial port.  User JimBeam, I think, Dave credited his real name in his first mod video.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on May 04, 2010, 03:04:00 pm
    Most of oscilloscopes what I know have "service calibration" or what ever name they use.

    I think there is some way how factory (or service) run special calibration process after new scope HW is ready. After HW production every scope need maybe some individual parameters. My opinion is that normal "selfcal" do not all these.

    How to enter this special mode? (if there is any)

    I have look many times FW but can not find any good idea how.

    Maybe scope have some special startup (example startup with some keys pressed (many different machines have some "hidden" way to do some service specials) or something else or some command via USB or serial port)

    How we can find these?

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: alm on May 04, 2010, 04:00:56 pm
    Most of oscilloscopes what I know have "service calibration" or what ever name they use.

    I think there is some way how factory (or service) run special calibration process after new scope HW is ready. After HW production every scope need maybe some individual parameters. My opinion is that normal "selfcal" do not all these.
    Agreed, it's likely that the scope needs external signals for this, the selfcal is just to compensate offsets generated by temperature differences.

    How to enter this special mode? (if there is any)

    I have look many times FW but can not find any good idea how.

    Maybe scope have some special startup (example startup with some keys pressed (many different machines have some "hidden" way to do some service specials) or something else or some command via USB or serial port)

    How we can find these?
    I would expect them to be initiated from USB/serial, since they'd want to automate it as much as possible. If you're lucky, it might be the same procedure as used for annual calibration at a cal lab, this should be documented in the service/calibration manual (is there such a thing? gotta love Chinese companies and documentation). It might be documented for the Agilent version of the scope (although the Agilent firmware is not the same, so it could be different), HP/Agilent is usually quite good at documentation. If the initial calibration is a different process, it's unlikely to be documented, and I expect it would be hard to reverse-engineer this, since it'll probably need specific signals and specified steps.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Simon on May 04, 2010, 04:27:28 pm
    the self cal will also compensate for self generated signal the scope picks up. when I removed the "shield" I had put around the power supply the trace had a negative offset and i had to recallibrate the scope as i had to when I put the shield on
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Polossatik on May 04, 2010, 06:26:26 pm
    It might be documented for the Agilent version of the scope (although the Agilent firmware is not the same, so it could be different), HP/Agilent is usually quite good at documentation.

    Hum, I aasume the DSO1002A is the one that is supposed to be the Agilent version of the Rigol DS1052E ?
    They look quite similar from setup/build, but the specs are quite different.

     "2 GSa/s sample rate half channel, 1 GSa/s each channel " rigol : 1GSa/s for one channel or 500MSa/channel when using "deep" memory

    same for the " 20 kpts memory half channel, 10 kpts each channel " vs "16 kpts one channel, 8kpts/channel when using 2 channels" for the rigol.

    I assume "half channel" is the Agilent terminology of using "half of the channels available (= 1 channel)?
    I can't find any reference on the Agilent site about something like the Rigol's "1Mpts long Memory Depth"...

     
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: alm on May 04, 2010, 08:06:42 pm
    Seems like the Agilent DSO1000 is more like the Rigol DG1000A/B series, but I wouldn't expect them to change the protocol at every revision.

    The Agilent service manual only contains the performance check, however, so it's not much help (although completing the performance check would be a start). No calibration info, not even a simplified block diagram of the system. I'd be quite disappointed if I paid Agilent serious money for this.

    I'd be careful to start any calibration routine without proper documentation, even if you could reverse-engineer or guess the commands. You don't know what signals the scope expects, and what the requirements are. What if the first step is erasing any previous calibration data? The actual knowledge that it will meet its specs is probably you only get buy buying an actual DG1102E.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Grapsus on May 06, 2010, 06:46:26 pm
    I just got my DS1052E from dealextreme :
    - 390$
    - ordered on 4/23, shipped on 4/28 and received on 5/6 which seems good, I only paid 15$ extra to get EMS shipping
    - the certificate says it was manufactured on 4/20
    - firmware was 00.02.04
    - I went back to 00.02.02 SP2, did the hack and returned to 00.02.04 (got files from rcgroups)

    Thank you guys! This scope is awesome :D
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: cqmiao on May 08, 2010, 02:35:06 am
    My ds1052e version is 00.01.03,can it to change 100MHZ?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: GeoffS on May 08, 2010, 02:50:03 am
    My ds1052e version is 00.01.03,can it to change 100MHZ?

    I'd upgrade the firmware to 00.02.02 SP2 as this one is known to work.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: cqmiao on May 08, 2010, 05:25:54 am
    Could you send me a 00.02.02 SP2 firmware?
    my email : cqmiao@hotmail.com 
    THANKS~
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on May 08, 2010, 06:40:03 am
    http://www.box.net/shared/et7ztaxauf
    (this is official (old 02.02.SP2) upgrade package from Rigol to DS1000D and DS1000E model.)

    here is whole package. STOP: Read first upgrade manual inside this package, even if you think you know all things.

    (Important: Do NOT use D upgrade to E model!!! )



    (If you have example DS1052E, move alone only DS1000EUpdate.RGL file to empty USB memory root. (USB memory need be FAT32 format))

    Disclaimer: Only Rigol can tell you if you can upgrade or downgrade your individual machine to some FW version. If it works in one machine or ten machines it do NOT proof that it works with you machine. Some machines now, before, or future may be incompatible with some FW versions! So if someone upgrade or downgrade his scope without asking compatability he take just his own risk and he is just responsible alone if there is some bad effects or in worst case whole scope is just like garbage. (look example member "shafri" case. But this is becouse he maybe do many errors aftter errors and finalize whole error queue with wrong FW)!

    Rigol Upgrade note:
    6. Before the upgrade, please contact RIGOL Technical and Support Department to confirm whether the current firmware version can be upgraded to the target version or not. ©Copyright RIGOL Technologies,  



    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mechatrommer on May 08, 2010, 10:22:24 am
    from what i can remember... the problem occured before i upgraded to D version... while playing around with Serial Command. + E and D version are binari'ly 80% similar in content, maybe its just some data or splash screen bitmap at the end that makes them different... who knows? and when i reverted back to E version, the problem still remains ???

    OK... if you people need an advice? just dont upgrade your rigol whatsoever, just use it as is out of rigol factory... unless... during your project development... u are hit by 100MHz barrier... and after that, just prepare to whatever come out of your modified rigol.

    version 1 or version 2? whether u need an upgrade? just ask yourself whether your rigol satisfiy you so far, or at least works as it should be. if the answer is yes... then dont give a damn on the latest firmware. sometime latest firmware will not do any good... just as ver 02.04 proved it.

    most people (including me), will be very happy when they switch on their rigol and showing ver: "the latest hunky funky" SP4, and be able to go down to 2ns timescale, but practically... it is very small/seldom use or nothing at all or even worst!
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mechatrommer on May 08, 2010, 10:42:03 am
    anyway... if someone really generous enough and care to answer some of my curiosity here:
    other than EEPROM data...

    is it possible to corrupt/modify the software inside the CPLD/FPGA? are they meant to be changed in circuit?
    or is it a "software" inside? or something else "digital" or "hardware" thing inside?
    is it possible to corrupt/modify the bootloader inside the BlackFin?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on May 08, 2010, 12:41:28 pm
    I hope some day we find enough knowledge about possible factory calibration procedure. If there is any, it may solve you problem.
    (I can still believe (hope) your scope can get its functinality back without opening case and hang around main board.)

    There may be some method how factory or repair sevice can load some important parameters to scope (I do not believe that normal user selfcal can do all this). Maybe there is "hidden" service calibration  what can develop all needed parameters. It is not only how to start this possible service/cal routine but also of course need know what kind of signals it need for calibration. (of course it is also possible that there is not this kind of routine what is very common in professional equipments.)

    ---------------------------

    There is also one mysterious command.

    :SYSSERVICE ON

    (Do NOT try)

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Grapsus on May 08, 2010, 01:30:57 pm
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only known problem caused by firmware upgrade was on shafri's scope, because he messed up with the D series file. So what's so dramatic about downgrading one's scope to perform the hack?

    There are several reasons why 100 MHz BW is better :
    - Even a slower signal often has > 100 MHz harmonics, thus it's representation will be more accurate on a 100 MHz scope.
    - It's very frustrating to have 100 MHz hardware with software restrictions...
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: cqmiao on May 08, 2010, 02:05:24 pm
    rf-loop,thank you~
    I'd upgrade the firmware to 00.02.02 SP2 ,It's ok!
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: cqmiao on May 08, 2010, 04:25:48 pm
    OK,DS1052E upgrade to  DS1102E is successfully,but 02.04 firmware I can't find it.
    help me ,please~~thanks??? ...
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: ChrisNYC on May 15, 2010, 03:29:08 am
    Anyone still on the fence about purchasing the ds1052E, here's a good price from a reputable US vendor with 3 year warranty. $399 shipped.

    http://tequipment.net/RigolDS1052E.html (http://tequipment.net/RigolDS1052E.html)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: saturation on May 15, 2010, 10:39:37 am
    Awesome.  I'm in.  tequipment has certainly made a lot of sales from me this month.  BTW check out the 'reviews' :)

    PS FWIW, its indepedent not independant.  Spelling please.  I wouldn't be surprised if this shipped directly from China with tequipment working as a broker for the sales.  The good news is those of us in the US get USA service from tequipment.

    Good job!

    Anyone still on the fence about purchasing the ds1052E, here's a good price from a reputable US vendor with 3 year warranty. $399 shipped.

    http://tequipment.net/RigolDS1052E.html (http://tequipment.net/RigolDS1052E.html)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: ChrisNYC on May 15, 2010, 12:18:18 pm
    When I ordered from Tequipment last month, the scope was drop shipped from Rigol NA in Ohio. Got it in about 2 days.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: saturation on May 15, 2010, 01:54:40 pm
    When I ordered from Tequipment last month, the scope was drop shipped from Rigol NA in Ohio. Got it in about 2 days.

    Awesome.  I hope that's my fate.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: gecf343b1 on May 16, 2010, 06:59:24 am
    FYI – I received my DS1052E 5/14/10, downgraded the FW,  used hyperterminal  to enter new model and serial number, rebooted. When I restarted the scope the model and serial number are missing.  The scope still operates fine as far as I can tell (at 50 mhz), so I am going to leave as is after reading this blog I’m afraid I might f/u the scope if I attempt the upgrade again.
    Norm
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: EEVblog on May 16, 2010, 08:13:01 am
    Anyone still on the fence about purchasing the ds1052E, here's a good price from a reputable US vendor with 3 year warranty. $399 shipped.

    http://tequipment.net/RigolDS1052E.html (http://tequipment.net/RigolDS1052E.html)

    Yes, I can vouch for Tequipment.net. Evan from tequipment has let me know that Rigol have dropped their price on the DS1052E, so this price drop is permanent.
    With these sorts of prices there may be no need to buy from China any more if you are cash strapped. Getting it from a certified dealer like tequipment means you get that warranty.

    Dave.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: kc1980 on May 16, 2010, 09:06:00 am
    FYI – I received my DS1052E 5/14/10, downgraded the FW,  used hyperterminal  to enter new model and serial number, rebooted. When I restarted the scope the model and serial number are missing.  The scope still operates fine as far as I can tell (at 50 mhz), so I am going to leave as is after reading this blog I’m afraid I might f/u the scope if I attempt the upgrade again.
    Norm


    I don't know if it's any safer but I successfully hacked mine with USB using National Instrument's VISA tool.  I had no problems at all.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: joelby on May 16, 2010, 01:20:10 pm
    PS FWIW, its indepedent not independant.  Spelling please.

    Did you mean independent? :)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: redek on May 16, 2010, 01:31:01 pm
    PS FWIW, its indepedent not independant.  Spelling please.

    Did you mean independent? :)

    Yet another reason its good practice not to be a spelling Nazi.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: saturation on May 16, 2010, 01:51:58 pm
    Agree, mea culpa!  But it is an advertisement for a company, not a blog or forum post.  Many buyers see proper form means proper business.  Would you use a business card with your title misspelled?


    PS FWIW, its indepedent not independant.  Spelling please.

    Did you mean independent? :)
    PS FWIW, its indepedent not independant.  Spelling please.

    Did you mean independent? :)

    Yet another reason its good practice not to be a spelling Nazi.

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: slburris on May 16, 2010, 02:08:55 pm
    My brain has fuzzed over from wading through all the messages on this
    thread and a similar one over on RC groups  :-)

    I've applied the 2.04 firmware (although the scope sees it as a
    "downgrade" like in Dave's video.  I think this is supposed to
    improve LCD update rates, correct?  Any other known fixes over
    2.02 SP2?

    Scott
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: wd5gnr on May 16, 2010, 02:30:47 pm
    I didn't notice any difference between 2.02 and 2.04 (other than the un-upgradeableness if that's a word ;-)

    However, the copy of 2.04 I found on the RC forum does NOT have help text. That is, if you hold down a button for a few seconds it tries to load help text (like 2.02 does) but then doesn't. I presume the help text is localized and the 2.04 copy in the wild didn't get localized help so it fails to find the "file" with the help text in it.

    So I left mine back at 2.02. Figure if the copy floating around wasn't "finished" there might be other rough edges. I have heard that if your scope arrives with 2.04 in it, the help text works.

    I bought mine from Riko Instruments (eBay) and I know at least 4 others who have got theirs from him on my recommendation (too bad I don't get a commission ;-) ). The reason I say that is that my buddy who got one last week still got 2.02 -- so while I have heard of some people getting 2.04, everyone that I have personally seen still had 2.02 on them when it arrived. If Rigol put 2.04 up somewhere "officially" I'd probably upgrade it.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on May 16, 2010, 07:13:58 pm
    RC forum shared FW is 02.04.00.00 (this have never be as factory installed in scopes what come out from production to customers)

    Rigol official FW version is now 02.04.00.01  ( scopes from Rigol factory come with this FW version)


    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: joost on May 17, 2010, 11:11:03 am
    I just received my scope from DX. Systeminfo shows me it has FW version 00.02.04. How can I find out if this is the 02.04.00.01 or something else? I'm missing some digits here..
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on May 17, 2010, 06:28:25 pm
    Send command *IDN? and scope answer to you.

    (System display do not show (in this case) this last part of FW version)

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: tequipment on May 19, 2010, 03:58:37 am
    @ saturation    ok we will fix our spelling!  I emailed our web department.

    I might spell something wrong but I know my math will always be correct!  ( its the EE in me )
    One a side note we dont ship anything from China.  We are a US dealer with about 40 employees.

    Thanks for the business. 
    Evan
    www.Tequipment.NET
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on May 19, 2010, 04:53:08 am
    Tequipment

    • 50 MHz
    • 1GS/s RT 
    • 25GS/s ET   wrong (it is 10Gs/s max)
    • 2 Channel
    • 6k Memory   wrong

    ;)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: saturation on May 19, 2010, 08:13:46 pm
    Good to know.  I bought an Instek DDS from you folks last month, and its shipped from CA, not from NJ.  It looks like it came direct from Instek's US storehouse, factory fresh out of Taiwan based on the production date of 4/10.  It took about a week to arrive.

    I just received the Rigol at our receiving station, it came overnight, but I haven't had time to even get to it.  Impressive.

    I Also got the Velleman HPS40 some time ago, and it too, came overnight.

    I ordered my items via ground UPS or whatever your free shipping is, and it still came overnight; its a major plus.

    You guys do a great job, documentation of sales are very professional, shipping speedy, sales support by email and chat work very well for me.

    If you'all could fix the website search engine so we can make better searches it would help.  Right now, the best approach to the tequipment website is to know what you want first, then drill down to it.


    @ saturation    ok we will fix our spelling!  I emailed our web department.

    I might spell something wrong but I know my math will always be correct!  ( its the EE in me )
    One a side note we dont ship anything from China.  We are a US dealer with about 40 employees.

    Thanks for the business.  
    Evan
    www.Tequipment.NET
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: tequipment on May 20, 2010, 04:37:40 am
    It will be a bit but I am working hard on it!  Stay tuned.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: halman on June 29, 2010, 04:05:23 pm
    Hello,

    I seem to have bricked my scope while performing the firmware downgrade… When I restart the scope it does not boot up but one can see that the lcd is turned on but there is no image…

    Any tips, can I somehow trigger a reflash from this state?

    I have access to the necessary equipment to desolder and reflash most types of memories in a programmer .. but i rather not if there is any other way… 

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mechatrommer on June 29, 2010, 06:39:07 pm
    what happened? incomplete downgrade? blackout?
    u said you can reprogram the spansion? well, i need one good spansion with rigol ds1052e firmware inside... if you can help.
    i hope there is a way to reflash through usb or rs232 serial port, or even jtag header inside it? ???
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: halman on June 29, 2010, 07:02:42 pm
    It must have been an incomplete flash. I inserted an usb stick with the firmware and ran it from the menu system, once it was done I restarted the scope, it was then it refused to start up properly. Strange things go on with the button lights they light up randomly and if i do quick restarts they move...it looks kinda like a counter is incrementing.

    spansion?

    I can reprogram flash memories and eeproms easily enough, if i have to. But I don't know which parts of the .rgl file to place where.. and in what order ...

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: dimlow on June 29, 2010, 09:25:40 pm
    Im still watching this thread with interest, i doubt anybody will come up with a solution to this problem.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: saturation on June 29, 2010, 11:35:28 pm
    I'm sorry to hear of this, this is what I fear can happen albeit its not been the majority of reports.  I hope there is a solution to this problem.

    I've set up a poll to find out how many have done the mod and succeeded, not done the mod, done the mod nothing happened, finally done the mod and lost the scope's functionality.

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mechatrommer on June 30, 2010, 01:56:47 am
    I've set up a poll to find out how many have done the mod and succeeded, not done the mod, done the mod nothing happened, finally done the mod and lost the scope's functionality.
    i'm not in the list. i've done the mod partially succesful... and partially lost the functionality. partially means... some bad... and some still good :)

    @halman... i think there are 3 ways i can suggest:
    1) find out yourself if there is a way to re-flash without poking the hardware out, i've searched and found nothing. next move... is yours :) tell us if you've found out.
    2) poke out the flash, re-program it parallely
    3) sneak into rigol company, ask the good engineer inside, on how to do it.
    I might suggest the 4th, but... maybe that isnt friendly... buy another one and dont do the mod whatsoever. Cheers!
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: beerhunter on June 30, 2010, 01:57:28 am
    The biggest problem I had was getting the RS232 port to talk to the Rigol. I tried the USB adapter and gave up after a week of frustration. My old IBM laptop with a real 232 port refused to work also even though it
    works programming a few radios I have.

    I finally discovered that my old P4 downstairs has two 232 ports and worked just fine to upgrade it to a 100 Mhz. scope. I also got my scope from Tequipment and I wonder if I trashed my warranty with the hack.

    Anybody know if its possible to upload the firmware from a 2.04.01 scope and get it on a USB stick? I have searched far and wide to find the FW with the help files to no avail.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mechatrommer on June 30, 2010, 02:10:51 am
    halman... u ar better than i am since you have access to the programmer. if i have it, i'll poke the spansion out... carefully, read the content and compare with the firmware file *.rgl and make some necessary mod/hack. i wish u could read the content and publish here... i can give my "free" service to analyze it ;P. there must be still some usefull data inside to do the matching. we can re-modify it, and repair yours, and... i can find the location for the calibration data... to repair mine :)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: beerhunter on July 02, 2010, 12:22:46 am
    "It must have been an incomplete flash. I inserted an usb stick with the firmware and ran it from the menu system, once it was done I restarted the scope, it was then it refused to start up properly. Strange things go on with the button lights they light up randomly and if i do quick restarts they move...it looks kinda like a counter is incrementing."



    Halman, what if someone was to send you a working USB stick that was known to work fine and try to re flash your firmware? Seems to me that two possibilities are present. One, your USB stick is trashed. Two,the copy of the FW from your computer to the USB stick is trashed.

    I think this might work cuz' sometime in the manufacturing process the CPU memory is a clean slate and someone has to flash the FW into the system.

    Where do you live? If in the states a whole bunch of us has done the upgrade and still might have the stick handy with the 2.04 FW on it.

    (EDIT) Dang it! I just checked my stick and its blank, sorry.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: beerhunter on July 02, 2010, 08:57:06 pm
    Just got a reply from Rigol NA in Ohio. A firmware bricked scope will cost "North of 200 bucks in parts and labor" to fix. The repair not covered under warranty of course and a hacked scope is NOT covered under warranty anymore.

    Got no answer if a bricked scope can be fixed by just re installing a USB stick firmware download. Would really like to see if it can be done though.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: alm on July 02, 2010, 09:04:09 pm
    Either they replace the complete mainboard (not unreasonable if the IC is soldered down), or they just want to discourage hacking it. Can't argue with the fact that hacking it voids the warranty.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Polossatik on July 05, 2010, 07:58:04 am
    @ halman: just to know, did you use the firmware file included in the "DS1052E to DS1102E.zip" file ?

    I also added a extra warning to the USB guide to double check your USB stick works with the rigol.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: beerhunter on July 05, 2010, 07:57:34 pm
    Now heres an interesting development. Rigol NA in Ohio sent me a version of the firmware that is only designated 00.02.04 .I asked them to send me the latest FW with the help files. So I was expecting the 00.02.04.01 file.  I was in a what the hell mode so I loaded the file into my USB stick and shoved it into the front panel port. It immediately told me that there is a higher rev FW and do I want to update?

    Sure, what the hell and I hit the OK button. Not expecting much I reset the scope after it was done and now the help files are working again!! Yayy!! I am glad I didn't turn the scope into a wheel chock or a brick.
    If anybody is interested I'll attach the file or you can contact Rigol in Ohio directly for the file.

    Oh, and the 100 Mhz. upgrade is still there so not to worry.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on July 05, 2010, 08:19:23 pm
    Whole version is not (afaik) displayed on scope system info. 00 and 01 displays in system info as 00.02.04
    You can ask it with *IDN command and there may be 00.02.04.01 or something else.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: beerhunter on July 06, 2010, 12:54:22 am
    Whole version is not (afaik) displayed on scope system info. 00 and 01 displays in system info as 00.02.04
    You can ask it with *IDN command and there may be 00.02.04.01 or something else.


    Now its getting to be more fun. You're right, only using the *IDN command via the RS-232 port does the full revision number show up. My scope is now at firmware  00.02.04.00.03 .


    You can now download this firmware version at the USB upgrade for dummies thread. This file was downloaded directly from my USB stick that was used for my scope.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: slburris on July 06, 2010, 03:05:33 am
    I've update my scope with this firmware, and the help menus
    are indeed back!  Nothing bad seems to have happened :-)

    Thanks!

    Scott
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: beerhunter on July 07, 2010, 01:34:14 am
    I've update my scope with this firmware, and the help menus
    are indeed back!  Nothing bad seems to have happened :-)

    Thanks!

    Scott


    Great! Thanks for the report Scott. I was(am) concerned that it would go right on other scopes.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: claes on July 07, 2010, 01:51:20 am
    My scope is now at firmware  00.02.04.00.03 .

    You can now download this firmware version at the USB upgrade for dummies thread. This file was downloaded directly from my USB stick that was used for my scope.

    Works as advertised :) Now my firmware is 00.02.04.00.03 (verified using usb-cable and "Visa VC demo"). Help system also works. And it still reports DS1102E.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: beerhunter on July 07, 2010, 01:58:03 am
    My scope is now at firmware  00.02.04.00.03 .

    You can now download this firmware version at the USB upgrade for dummies thread. This file was downloaded directly from my USB stick that was used for my scope.

    Works as advertised :) Now my firmware is 00.02.04.00.03 (verified using usb-cable and "Visa VC demo"). Help system also works. And it still reports DS1102E.

    Nice!! Now I can sleep better, THANKS!
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Meiner on July 09, 2010, 08:23:14 am
    Hello,

    I seem to have bricked my scope while performing the firmware downgrade… When I restart the scope it does not boot up but one can see that the lcd is turned on but there is no image…

    Any tips, can I somehow trigger a reflash from this state?

    I have access to the necessary equipment to desolder and reflash most types of memories in a programmer .. but i rather not if there is any other way… 



    Hello Everybody,

    I'm new on this forum... also tried the firmware downgrade, but unfortunately used the 02.01.01 Firmware for downgrading. Result was the same as Halman's:
    Fan running, but no image on the screen and no response on USB and RS232.
    I was trying to figure out the pinning of the internal JTAG header:


                    --------
                    | o   o |
                    |        |
                    |      o |>  GND
                    |        |
           GND  <| o   o |>  CPU Pin85 = TMS
                    |        |
           GND  <| o   o |>  CPU Pin94 = TCK
                    |        |
           GND  <| o   o |
                    |        |
           GND  <| o   o |>  CPU Pin86 = TDI
                    |        |
           GND  <| o   o |>  CPU Pin87 = TDO
                    --------

    There should also be a 3V3 Pin at least on the header, I haven't checked it yet.

    Flash S29GL064N90TFI04 runs at 3.3V, word-mode

    CPU ADSP - BF531

        Pin95-BMODE1 = 0V
        Pin96-BMODE0 = 3V3
    --> Boot from (16bit) Flash

    The CPU's datasheet mentions a internal ROM; I'm not sure if it's really a ROM (meaning that even Rigol hasn't changed it) and I want to find out it's content. My goal is to get access to the CPU via the JTAG interface to try to reflash the FLASH.

    Has anybody found out about the Flash's layout? It's 8MBytes large, but the *.rgl files are only 2MBytes large...?

    @halman, shafri: Please give an update about your work.

    Thanks
    Meiner
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mechatrommer on July 09, 2010, 11:43:37 am
    *.rgl is 4MB (thats in my keeping 2.02 and 2.04) but mostly blank inside, i havent thought of the ROM thing, might some useful data from inside. JTAG i found is similar to yours. i remember those ground"s" pin"s". but i dont have the JTAG programmer, so whats the point? for me! i cannot trace the Altera connection to the spansion since its BGA underground, rigol PCB is at least 3 layers, so ???.

    my only hope lies in the dissambly of the rigol FW, finding where the important interrupts point will be and crack it to take control from there. but i never got strong feeling for it, i want to continue to make some productive work to do. and.... nobody seems interesting, since i guess, its the software thing, and... the undocumented one ??? btw: if anyone want the nicely (well... not so nice) compiled opcodes for blackfin BF531 in csv/xls format, be happy to ask. i've done it in the hardway.

    your problem same with halman is worst since i dont see your rigol will ever reach the interrupt (USB FW re-upgrade, RS232 comm etc), probably you've tossed your bootloader as well! a brighter hope lies in halman, since he got parallel programmer as he mentioned.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Meiner on July 11, 2010, 11:33:57 pm
    *.rgl is 4MB (thats in my keeping 2.02 and 2.04) but mostly blank inside, i havent thought of the ROM thing, might some useful data from inside. JTAG i found is similar to yours. i remember those ground"s" pin"s". but i dont have the JTAG programmer, so whats the point? for me! i cannot trace the Altera connection to the spansion since its BGA underground, rigol PCB is at least 3 layers, so ???.

    my only hope lies in the dissambly of the rigol FW, finding where the important interrupts point will be and crack it to take control from there. but i never got strong feeling for it, i want to continue to make some productive work to do. and.... nobody seems interesting, since i guess, its the software thing, and... the undocumented one ??? btw: if anyone want the nicely (well... not so nice) compiled opcodes for blackfin BF531 in csv/xls format, be happy to ask. i've done it in the hardway.

    your problem same with halman is worst since i dont see your rigol will ever reach the interrupt (USB FW re-upgrade, RS232 comm etc), probably you've tossed your bootloader as well! a brighter hope lies in halman, since he got parallel programmer as he mentioned.


    You are right, the *.rgl is 4 MBytes. That's exact the size of the 4 async memory banks in the ADSP CPU (datasheet page6, starting at address 0x20000000). That's the cause why the *.rgl is only 4 MBytes while the flash is bigger (but cannot be fully accessed by the ADSP CPU). Boot mode 01 (Use boot ROM to load from 8-bit or 16-bit flash) starts the internal boot ROM with a 10-byte header read from the external flash to load the internal code memory and start executation from there afterwards.

    I didin't understand why you want to trace from the altera to the spansion flash? In my opinion the flash is connected to the ADSP-BF531, not to the altera. I'm still trying to find a way to reflash the spansion via the ADSP's JTAG interface? If not possible, Plan B would be to desolder the flash and replace it with a new one flashed in an external programmer.

    I think the 02.01.01 firmware I used for downgrading uses a different boot block inside the flash which is not compatible with my hardware. Replacing the whole 4MBytes flash content should therefore make the scope work again. I only hope that the 4 MBytes used are at the beginning of the entire 8MBytes flash...

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mechatrommer on July 12, 2010, 03:41:19 pm
    I didin't understand why you want to trace from the altera to the spansion flash? In my opinion the flash is connected to the ADSP-BF531, not to the altera.
    some other forumers speculated that the 8MB spansion is shared between the blackfin and altera. and my specific problem is with the internal calibration data which possibly lies in the next 4MB which inaccessible to blackfin.

    I'm still trying to find a way to reflash the spansion via the ADSP's JTAG interface?
    if you have the JTAG programmer, then i think you should find the manual for the adsp on how to say... program it, read or write to spansion from the programmer. but be sure to backup at least the bootloader. if you lost it, i think you can program the adsp for other kind of DSO :), i've found one open source attempt on a certain dso brand, cant remember whats it, its somewhere here in the net. the hardware is pretty close to our rigol.

    If not possible, Plan B would be to desolder the flash and replace it with a new one flashed in an external programmer.
    do you have the original content? if not, how u gonna fill the blank flash?

    I think the 02.01.01 firmware I used for downgrading uses a different boot block inside the flash which is not compatible with my hardware.
    why go down further to 2.01? ppl suggesting just downgrade to 2.02? i might have missed the earlier forum/posts

    Replacing the whole 4MBytes flash content should therefore make the scope work again. I only hope that the 4 MBytes used are at the beginning of the entire 8MBytes flash...
    i really hope so, and you can report your success and more usefull data for this rigol hacking.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: akschu on July 20, 2010, 06:08:51 am
    I'm been reading about this for a little while, but I still am not making much sense of this.

    Can someone tell me if this mod still works on the currently shipping scopes or did they fix the problem in the newer firmware with no way to revert?  I would like to do this if it's not too late.

    schu
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on July 20, 2010, 08:17:05 am
    Read carefully this:

    https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=553.0



     ...and follow it carefully step by step.

    (first you need "downgrade" FW to right version for mod (new versions are "modification locked"! (be careful: use exactly right FW version and check it before insert USB stick to front USB connector of scope.)

    ------------

    Also nobody know what time Rigol do next  HW/FW versions and they maybe do not accept downgrade FW to 02.02xxxx versions.
    (I believe they are thinking it... but also nobody know what is wise for....for what... selling volume is only one point. In every case DS1000E do not kontinue in production long time forward) In every case Rigol name is now more well known as before DS1000E series...
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Meiner on July 20, 2010, 06:57:48 pm
    Hello again,

    I've desoldered the spansion flash and read out the content (file.rar). Last Action before was downgrading to 02.01.01 (the packed *.rgl file in the attachment). I want to analyze the file to find out, where the *.rgl file has been placed. With this information I hope to be able to replace the 01.01 with a (working) 01.02 or 01.04.

    Thans for any comments
    Meiner
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: marianoapp on July 21, 2010, 12:20:27 am
    i've been looking the files and i think the *.rgl hasn't been placed anywhere..   :-\

    the *.rgl has over 2MB worth of content, yet the the other file barely reaches 140KB [not counting the big blocks filled with 0x00 and 0xFF in neither file]
    i've also been unable to find anything meaningful or code-like in the other file, except for the model and serial number. The model it's stored at position 0x1FFF40 and in reverse byte order [LSB?], e.g. "SD0125.E"

    oh, and the other file content starts all over again at position 0x400000
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mechatrommer on July 21, 2010, 03:42:46 am
    I've desoldered the spansion flash and read out the content (file.rar). Last Action before was downgrading to 02.01.01 (the packed *.rgl file in the attachment). I want to analyze the file to find out, where the *.rgl file has been placed. With this information I hope to be able to replace the 01.01 with a (working) 01.02 or 01.04.
    i agree with marianoapp, i cant find any codelike data inside. by just looking at the flash compressed file 71KB vs original 8MB, your flash only contains a highly redundant bytes with some database/structured/tabular like format chunks inside. maybe your flash got formatted by the bootloader or something... i think.

    added: the bin is separated into 2 equal sized 4MB space with a header in each section... the contents are identical except in the middle of 1st section (around 2MB location, some additional data OOOOPPPP..CCCCC where in the same location for the 2nd section, its emptied with FFFFFFFFFFFFFFF ???

    this is interesting, @meiner & others... can you suggest a flash reader to me, if the price and availability is right, i think i'm going to get one as well to read my spansion, preferably from ebay, cheaper but reliable. i'm suspecting something from the tabular data in the flash bin, but i think better not to say it for now, only speculating.

    ps: i wish a more generic eeprom reader that can read not just spansion, but samsung, atmel etc, so it will be more useful to me, i got quite a number of salvaged samsung eeprom here.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Meiner on July 21, 2010, 10:00:16 pm
    The model it's stored at position 0x1FFF40 and in reverse byte order [LSB?], e.g. "SD0125.E"

    You're probably right, the byte order in the file.rar may be wrong. I have no flash reader of my own, so I went to a local dealer who sold some stuff to the company I work for, asked him for some help and he read the spansion's content for me. After reading he told me that the byte order might be wrong and that he could simply flip it. Because I didn't know the right order, I told him not to do so.

    @shafri: sorry, I can't remember the brand of their flash reader, but I think it was an expensive one...

    I came to the same result: the spansion's content is quite poor. Anyhow I don't think that the *.rgl code is placed in any other non-volatile storage inside the scope, so it should be in the spansion. I have no idea why it isn't. But I guess that's why my scope is definitely doing nothing but blowing the fan.

    Next step for me is to find out the correct spansion's content. Maybe I should try to write the *.rgl (without the first 16 byte header) to the lower 4MB and just try it. But on the other hand I can't try this often, because the spansion has no socket.... any suggestions where to get a socket?

    Thanks
    Meiner
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: just on July 21, 2010, 10:50:06 pm
    Hi Meiner, as I can see in the flash file you have changed the serial number before the downgrade...
    The two halfs of the flash are quite identical, only 251 bytes are different, more data in the first half. And the *.rgl is with 21 bytes more than 4MB, not 16 bytes. Maybe it will work if you put the file in the lower part of the flash, without the 21 bytes...

    regards
    Just
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: JimBeam on July 22, 2010, 06:02:33 am
    each half in the bin is 4,194,344 bytes, my 2.02 *.rgl is 4,194,325 bytes. so its 19 bytes shorter? how could you say that it got 21 bytes more than 4MB?

    2^22 = 4,194,304 - not 4,194,344

    So it is 21 bytes longer.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: just on July 22, 2010, 06:06:44 am
    Hi, please calculate

    8 MB = 8388608 bytes, the size of file.bin, split in 2 and see the size of each one, also compare them
    4 MB = 4194304 bytes,

    the *.rgl file is 4194325 bytes in size

    so the difference are 21 bytes: "DS1000E   02.01.01.00"
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Meiner on July 25, 2010, 11:35:35 am
    Hi Meiner, as I can see in the flash file you have changed the serial number before the downgrade...
    The two halfs of the flash are quite identical, only 251 bytes are different, more data in the first half. And the *.rgl is with 21 bytes more than 4MB, not 16 bytes. Maybe it will work if you put the file in the lower part of the flash, without the 21 bytes...

    regards
    Just

    Hi Just,
    you are right, I already changed the serial number. I also thought about writing the *.rgl without the 21 byte header into the forst half of the flash, but after finding out that the flash contains less data than the *.rgl, I'm not so sure to do so any more. I'm afraid of damaging the solder pads on the pcb by multiple soldering/desoldering the flash...
    I'm trying to get the contents of a working flash, to find out whether the few data in my flash was caused by the failed downgrade or not. I hope to find out, that the *.rgl is really placed in the lower half of the flash, if so, I can safely program a new flash and resolder it.

    So, if someone could post his (working) flash content, I would be very thankful.

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mechatrommer on July 25, 2010, 12:31:14 pm
    Hi Just,
    you are right, I already changed the serial number. I also thought about writing the *.rgl without the 21 byte header into the forst half of the flash, but after finding out that the flash contains less data than the *.rgl, I'm not so sure to do so any more. I'm afraid of damaging the solder pads on the pcb by multiple soldering/desoldering the flash...
    I'm trying to get the contents of a working flash, to find out whether the few data in my flash was caused by the failed downgrade or not. I hope to find out, that the *.rgl is really placed in the lower half of the flash, if so, I can safely program a new flash and resolder it.
    So, if someone could post his (working) flash content, I would be very thankful.

    yup! u ar going to need the good working scope's flash content as we dont know how's the existing file header content will be mixed together with the written firmware by the bootloader. cant you device a way to program the flash on board right away? so to avoid multiple solder-desolder? the existing JTAG maybe? or build a custom parallel interface that pop out of the flash pin on the PCB? this way, we can program the flash and test it as many time we want.

    even the 3rd party generic flash reader still quite expensive for me, i'm thinking of building a custom PIC or AVR EEPROM reader for this specific spansion flash, but gotta find a good allocation of time for it, still quite busy for everything rite now :(
    if any existing code for pic or avr for this, i'll be happy to burn it down the pic and start poking out my spansion.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: lynx on July 25, 2010, 03:54:28 pm
    Here is the contents from the flash in my NON-WORKING scope (bricked it while going from 02.04 to 02.02).

    I have believe it to be read out correctly but I had trouble with getting all the pins to connect with the socket I had availible.

    Anyway, I can confirm that the firmware is in the bottom half of the flash and that it indeed starts with the 21byte header removed.

    But I have yet to experiment further until the ZIF socket and spare spansions I have ordered arrive.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mechatrommer on July 25, 2010, 05:11:48 pm
    Anyway, I can confirm that the firmware is in the bottom half of the flash and that it indeed starts with the 21byte header removed.
    did u mean... not the top half? i saw the firmware is in the beginning of the file ???
    can you provide the link to your 2.02 firmware? coz the 2.02 i have is different in byte content when compared to your bin. only the first 65KBytes is similar.

    here's where i got mine:
    http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2866736
    if its the same source as yours, then i should re-download and check if any content are changed.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: lynx on July 25, 2010, 05:49:17 pm
    I ment starting at address 0h.

    I checked the file in the link you posted and its contains the same data as the file I used. I also compared the contents of my flash with an 02.04 file I found and that to is different (from that point of first difference towards 02.02)

    Are there several 02.04 revisions around?

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: bushing on July 26, 2010, 07:04:41 am

    I was trying to figure out the pinning of the internal JTAG header:

    [...]
    There should also be a 3V3 Pin at least on the header, I haven't checked it yet.

    Flash S29GL064N90TFI04 runs at 3.3V, word-mode

    CPU ADSP - BF531

        Pin95-BMODE1 = 0V
        Pin96-BMODE0 = 3V3
    --> Boot from (16bit) Flash

    The CPU's datasheet mentions a internal ROM; I'm not sure if it's really a ROM (meaning that even Rigol hasn't changed it) and I want to find out it's content. My goal is to get access to the CPU via the JTAG interface to try to reflash the FLASH.

    Please double-check this; I measured BMODE0/1 and got completely different results, see https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=30.msg2824#msg2824.  (I also put the JTAG pinout there.)

    The purpose of the ROM is to read those BMODE pins and fetch the rest of the code from the appropriate source ... if the datasheet says it's ROM, it's doubtful that Rigol can reprogram it.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on July 26, 2010, 07:46:33 am
    I ment starting at address 0h.

    I checked the file in the link you posted and its contains the same data as the file I used. I also compared the contents of my flash with an 02.04 file I found and that to is different (from that point of first difference towards 02.02)

    Are there several 02.04 revisions around?



    I have seen three different 02.04


    .00 (maybe never factory installed for markets)
    .01 (first factory release "modification disabled FW" after "modification enabled FW" 02.02.SP2
    .03 (last known factory release.)

    maybe there is also .02 but I have not see.

    this last part of FW version number can see only with *IDN? command.
    (and of course if read FW file directly)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: shirsch on August 11, 2010, 02:41:04 pm

    Now its getting to be more fun. You're right, only using the *IDN command via the RS-232 port does the full revision number show up. My scope is now at firmware  00.02.04.00.03 .

    You can now download this firmware version at the USB upgrade for dummies thread. This file was downloaded directly from my USB stick that was used for my scope.

    At the risk of belaboring the point, has anyone verified that a DS1052E shipped with 00.02.04.00.03 can be successfully "downgraded" to 00.02.02 SP2 ?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Polossatik on August 11, 2010, 06:14:09 pm

    At the risk of belaboring the point, has anyone verified that a DS1052E shipped with 00.02.04.00.03 can be successfully "downgraded" to 00.02.02 SP2 ?


    I just updated the guide (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=553.msg6285#msg6285) for this
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Cheshyr on August 12, 2010, 04:55:14 am
    It must have been an incomplete flash. I inserted an usb stick with the firmware and ran it from the menu system, once it was done I restarted the scope, it was then it refused to start up properly. Strange things go on with the button lights they light up randomly and if i do quick restarts they move...it looks kinda like a counter is incrementing.

    spansion?

    I can reprogram flash memories and eeproms easily enough, if i have to. But I don't know which parts of the .rgl file to place where.. and in what order ...



    I'm watching this thread too.  My symptoms are identical to Halman's.  Expensive brick.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mechatrommer on August 12, 2010, 11:17:30 am
    we found another "bricker"! maybe rigol has take more evasive action for this hack!
    can anybody point me to where i can get Spansion Flash cheaper? i need a spare for my rigol and for testing.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Cheshyr on August 12, 2010, 02:05:34 pm
    we found another "bricker"! maybe rigol has take more evasive action for this hack

    I'm going to blame this one on my incompetence.  I didn't get the file or hear about the hack from EEVB.  I ended up here after the fact while searching for a fix, only to find a much more rigorous and professional procedure.  I did a checksum on my file, and it matches the one stored here.  The calibration date was June 2010, which I believe matches with someone else's successful flash.  I think it was just a bad flash; nothing indicated a problem with the downgrade.

    Either way, I just wanted to see if someone had found a way to force a reflash or fix it somehow.  My gut instinct thinks we either need to find a way to access the bootloader so we can trigger a 'factory update', or we need to get a complete image of a working flash, and do a full overwrite.  I have no evidence to back this up however.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: slburris on August 12, 2010, 02:34:53 pm
    Someone was talking about looking for JTAG connections a while ago -- did that ever pan out?

    Presumably these are manufactured with blank flash soldered in, then they are programmed
    via JTAG.  I suppose you could pre-program the surface mount flash in an adapter, but
    that seems wrong, since you need to do a final test anyway -- might as well program the
    flash at that step.

    So if someone figures out the JTAG and images their flash, then the bricked scopes should
    be recoverable.

    Scott
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Cheshyr on August 12, 2010, 05:12:00 pm
    Someone was talking about looking for JTAG connections a while ago -- did that ever pan out?

    Presumably these are manufactured with blank flash soldered in, then they are programmed
    via JTAG.  I suppose you could pre-program the surface mount flash in an adapter, but
    that seems wrong, since you need to do a final test anyway -- might as well program the
    flash at that step.

    So if someone figures out the JTAG and images their flash, then the bricked scopes should
    be recoverable.

    Scott

    Ok, I've attempted to RMA my first scope, and I've purchased a second one.  If the RMA gets refused, I'll dissect the bricked scope and see if I can find a way for other people to recover their bricks.

    On projects I've worked on in the past, the entire board was manufactured, and the flash was programmed after first-pass electrical test and AOI.  If they were using a ROM of some sort, I'd think they would program the device prior to manufacturing.  They're using Flash, which implies they had a reason to want to flash it after assembly, and that there's a mechanism to accomplish this.  That said, it might not be a straight-forward procedure.  On the same project I mentioned above, we wrote a custom bootloader, and encrypted our firmware.  The bootloader would decrypt it, verify a hashcode to ensure the firmware wasn't corrupt, and then dump the firmware in it's appropriate location.  (Branding requirements are always fun.)

    With regard to our specific problem, I think the easier solution is to get a complete dump of a working flash, and overwrite the entire chip.  Preferably, a working flash from a DS1052D or E that's already been modded, or one that is running 2.02.  In theory, this should bypass any potential weird bootloader issues, and get us into a state where we can go about fixing the serial number, model number, and updating the firmware accordingly.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: shirsch on August 15, 2010, 12:57:41 pm

    At the risk of belaboring the point, has anyone verified that a DS1052E shipped with 00.02.04.00.03 can be successfully "downgraded" to 00.02.02 SP2 ?


    I just updated the guide (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=553.msg6285#msg6285) for this

    Thanks much!  Chalk up another successful mod  :)  Went just as advertised.   This unit had a calibration date of June 8, 2010 and shipped with firmware 00.02.04.00.03.

    Title: Re: bricked scopes
    Post by: drieg on August 18, 2010, 07:08:39 am
    @lynx
    @Meiner

    I could be of any help reconstructing your FLASH content. The vital data seems to be OK in both cases. Could tell me the HW version (e.g. "DEM07") and the PCB version (e.g. "0941") of your scopes?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Meiner on August 19, 2010, 10:54:56 pm
    Hi everybody,

    sorry for my late reply, I`ve been busy with other topics... also, I've ordered another new DS1052E to desolder the working spansion and read the content. But on the other hand, I need a scope right now and this one's working... I will continue my repair trials in some weeks.

    But I have yet to experiment further until the ZIF socket and spare spansions I have ordered arrive.

    @lynx: could you pls tell me where you ordered a ZIF? This would help me a lot. Thanks

    Please double-check this; I measured BMODE0/1 and got completely different results, see https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=30.msg2824#msg2824.  (I also put the JTAG pinout there.)

    The purpose of the ROM is to read those BMODE pins and fetch the rest of the code from the appropriate source ... if the datasheet says it's ROM, it's doubtful that Rigol can reprogram it.

    @bushing: I can check this at the end of next week, since the open PCB is not here right now.

    we found another "bricker"! maybe rigol has take more evasive action for this hack!
    can anybody point me to where i can get Spansion Flash cheaper? i need a spare for my rigol and for testing.


    @shafri: I got my spansion at www.mouser.com: 797-S29GL064N90TFI04 (EUR 4.60)

    @lynx
    @Meiner

    I could be of any help reconstructing your FLASH content. The vital data seems to be OK in both cases. Could tell me the HW version (e.g. "DEM07") and the PCB version (e.g. "0941") of your scopes?

    @drieg: Thanks for your offer, next possibility to get the version is end of next week.

    Thanks Meiner
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mechatrommer on August 20, 2010, 12:01:39 pm
    I've ordered another new DS1052E to desolder the working spansion and read the content. But on the other hand, I need a scope right now and this one's working... I will continue my repair trials in some weeks.
    you really got balls! be careful with the new one.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: shirsch on August 21, 2010, 05:15:14 pm
    I'm a bit new to DSOs, so pardon me if this is a naive question.  Should the trace on my DS1052E show "fuzz" on the top and bottom of the waveform when viewing the calibration square wave?  I would have thought the signal was well out of the noise and expected to see a rock solid display.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: lynx on August 21, 2010, 06:38:54 pm
    >>drieg


    Hello, it would be awesome if you can do anything to help! Here is the information you requested:

    PCB rev: 10 12
    HW rev: DEMO7

    >>Meiner

    I bought them off ebay, I have yet to recieve them.



    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: mxmxmx on August 21, 2010, 07:44:52 pm
    I'm a bit new to DSOs, so pardon me if this is a naive question.  Should the trace on my DS1052E show "fuzz" on the top and bottom of the waveform when viewing the calibration square wave?

    Yes, it is normal to see that, since the ADCs add some noise to the signal. (This, by the way, also applies to much more expensive Agilent or Tektronix DSOs.)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: alm on August 21, 2010, 07:59:03 pm
    Indeed, and there's likely to be noise on the original signal (no signal in the real world has zero noise). Turning on averaging or bandwidth limiting should reduce it, and turning on peak detect should make it worse. As long as it's not too much (<= .1div or so, depending on bandwidth, acquisition mode and vertical sensitivity?), you shouldn't worry about it, and just get used to seeing it. I would be suspicious if I saw a completely clean signal. Using a shorter ground lead may help if you want to reduce it, Bob Pease has a good write-up about noise in scope shots (http://www.national.com/rap/Story/0,1562,18,00.html).
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: shirsch on August 21, 2010, 08:30:53 pm
    Indeed, and there's likely to be noise on the original signal (no signal in the real world has zero noise). Turning on averaging or bandwidth limiting should reduce it, and turning on peak detect should make it worse. As long as it's not too much (<= .1div or so, depending on bandwidth, acquisition mode and vertical sensitivity?), you shouldn't worry about it, and just get used to seeing it. I would be suspicious if I saw a completely clean signal. Using a shorter ground lead may help if you want to reduce it, Bob Pease has a good write-up about noise in scope shots (http://www.national.com/rap/Story/0,1562,18,00.html).

    Thanks.  That makes sense.  Graduating from my trusty old 65Mhz. HP 1706A to the Rigol is a bit of future shock! 
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: alm on August 21, 2010, 08:56:27 pm
    Entry-level DSO's tend to exaggerate noise, since they can only show one intensity. A CRT does some sort of intensity grading, random noise tends to be darker than the stable signal, so you hardly see it. More expensive scopes try to emulate this behavior, but the Rigol will just show you the last signal at a constant intensity. It's also possible that the Rigol front-end produces more noise, since the HP was probably higher-end when it was new.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: whitis on August 24, 2010, 01:29:13 am
    Entry-level DSO's tend to exaggerate noise, since they can only show one intensity. A CRT does some sort of intensity grading, random noise tends to be darker than the stable signal, so you hardly see it. More expensive scopes try to emulate this behavior, but the Rigol will just show you the last signal at a constant intensity. It's also possible that the Rigol front-end produces more noise, since the HP was probably higher-end when it was new.

    This persistance mode can only work on repetitive signals; it can't work on single sweep.   However, on single sweeps the noise just sits there; it doesn't dance around attracting your attention like it does on repetitive sweep.

    This is a dubious "feature", more gimmick, or even bug, than feature.   Although it can be useful sometimes, its primary effect, particularly if defaulted to on, is to make the scope superficially appear more accurate while actually making it less accurate.   Showing you the noise in your signal can be just as important as showing the intended signal.   Sometimes you want to clean up the signal but this should be done at your explicit request, after you have seen the noise, rather than hiding the noise.    I have spent a lot of time extracting small signals from large amounts of noise; there is a place for cleaned up signals.

    The Rigol does have an infinite persistance mode (:DISPlay:PERSist), where each pixel, once written remains visible, though at a reduced intensity compared to the current refresh.   This has roughly the opposite effect as the form of persistance described above as it actually highlights noise; this is likely to be more useful.  It does not have exponential decay which would give the gimmick effect, though that ought to be easy to add.

    The rigol has an averaging mode, where multiple sweeps are averaged together.   When you want to clean up the signal and hide the noise, this is more genuinely useful than the phosphor gimick.    It is vector rather than raster based, so the high resolution data sent to the computer is cleaned up and measurements made on the oscilloscope or on the computer can use the cleaned up data.   In addition, it has filter modes that operate on the waveform (:CHANnel1:FILTer).    The Rigol does have a switchable 20Mhz bandwidth limit (:CHANNEL1:BWLIMIT) on the input channels which can suppress high frequency noise which may be outside the frequency response of your circuity, anyway.   Thus, when you do need to clean your data (preferably after inspecting the uncleaned data, first), you have several ways to do so.

    One use for persistance is when using the scope as an XY display, such as when displaying simulated laser show effects (http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2007/08/youscope_oscilloscope_dem.html).    However, the Rigol lacks a Z axis modulation input.   Analog modulation would require an additional expensive high speed A/D converter channel, though it would be a zero marginal cost feature on a 4 channel scope.    Digital (on/off) modulation, however, could employ the trigger input on the scope.  It just takes some extra bits in memory; the memory on many fpga's is organized in multiples of 9 bits wide vs 8 bits wide so the extra bits may be free.   Thus digital modulation should be a zero marginal cost upgrade on the 2 channel models.

    Some noise might be an artifact of overclocking the A/D converters.    One of the differences of the higher graded parts is that they might actually settle to within noise specs in the shorter alloted time available at 100Mhz vs  40Mhz.   On more sluggish parts that don't make the grade, the signal may not have fully settled and may be between two A/D counts.    While 1 count of noise is unavoidable as a signal may hover on the boundary between two counts effectively producing a very high noise gain, settling effects might not be consistent from sweep to sweep.

    The Rigol doesn't antialias lines which can produce jagged edges on diagonal lines which are inherent on rasterized displays without antialiasing.   It does appear as if it usually displays the trace by plotting two pixels vertically instead of one, but not always.   This may happen when the 256 counts are reduced to somewhat less vertical pixels as a way of displaying intermediate values beyond the display resolution.   This may make the noise appear a little more subdued but may also make it appear like there is 1 pixel of additional noise when you scrutinize the display.

    A significant source of noise can be pickup in the probe.   If you clip the probe ground lead to the tip, you have created a loop antenna which picks up noise from the surroundings.   For illustration purposes, If you set this loop on top of the scope (inside the area occupied by the handle), you will see some some very significant noise from the scope itself at 2mV per division.   Now, hold the clip and rotate the probe 180 degrees about its axis.    This changes the ground lead from a loop to a figure 8, which like a twisted pair produces some cancelling.   Even in such close proximity to the noise source, this drops the noise by more than half.   Of course, you can also appear to get the opposite effect if you start in a less noisy area and rotate half the loop into the noisy area, so keep the loop(s) centered on the same area.

    Emulating the persistance/brightness defects of an analog scope is a lot like tube vs transistor amplifiers.    You can emulate the poorer fidelity of a tube amplifier on a solid state amplifier with a handfull of components, but only an Audiophool would argue that the tube amplifier is superior.   You can give people a choice if they prefer a distorted aesthetic, just as you can blur a high quality image for a particular aesthetic but a camera which can only produce blurred images is inferior.   Choice is good, locking people into bad choices or defaulting them to on so they bite the unwary, is bad.

    Most of the noise on the scope at logic level scales is +/-1 count.   At the 2mv/div level, it is noticeably higher but not that different from my Tektronix 2236 Analog Oscilloscope, which cost about $3500 when I bought it new or about $9700 in todays dollars.   On 2mV per division (and 500uS) with a looped probe, most of the noise is within about 2 minor divisions (plus a few spikes) on the Rigol and a little over 1 on the Tektronix, using the Rigol probe on 1x in both cases, though a good portion of that difference may be the analog scope hiding the noise.   With foil shorting the probe tip to the ground ring or with the probes disconnected, both scopes show about 1 minor division of noise.   It is more noticable on the Rigol, but it isn't really worse.  This is with a fan, a computer, two LCD monitors, a cell phone, a WiFi router, a DSL modem, a gigabit ethernet switch, a laser printer and an injet  printer/scanner, a barcode printer, a DVD recorder, a couple compact fluorescent light bulbs, a keyboard and mouse, a laptop, an air conditioner, assorted cables, and two oscilloscopes making noise in the immediate vicinity.   However, outside RF is significantly attenuated.

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: alm on August 24, 2010, 05:04:37 am
    A very informative post, I agree with most of it, except:

    This persistance mode can only work on repetitive signals; it can't work on single sweep.   However, on single sweeps the noise just sits there; it doesn't dance around attracting your attention like it does on repetitive sweep.
    True, but most analog scopes don't work that great in single sweep mode either ;). Not much you can do for single sweeps, except bandwidth limiting or other kinds of filters (eg. notch filters).

    This is a dubious "feature", more gimmick, or even bug, than feature.   Although it can be useful sometimes, its primary effect, particularly if defaulted to on, is to make the scope superficially appear more accurate while actually making it less accurate.   Showing you the noise in your signal can be just as important as showing the intended signal.   Sometimes you want to clean up the signal but this should be done at your explicit request, after you have seen the noise, rather than hiding the noise.    I have spent a lot of time extracting small signals from large amounts of noise; there is a place for cleaned up signals.
    They don't hide information, but combine information from previous sweeps without completely obscuring the current sweep. It simulates the persistence of real phosphor. In my opinion this feature is quite useful for complex or unstable signals, it gives you a quick visible clue about stability. It allows you to visually separate rare events from constant parts of the signal, without throwing tons of information away like with averaging. The average of a signal that's 50% of the time sinusoidal and 50% of the time DC would be an attenuated sine. Using a 'gimmick' like DPO (or Agilent/Lecroy equivalent) would show both a horizontal line and a sine, at reduced intensity.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: scrat on August 24, 2010, 08:36:23 am
    Up till now I worked with Tektronix or Agilent scopes only, never used cheap scopes.
    I'd say that a good "DPO" technique (emulation of phosphor on digital TFT display) is useful, because it allows to see rare events evaluating their rate of occurence, and to easily distinguish them from the repetitive signal (while typical persistence is not that good).
    An information which is often not present or well hidden on scope's specs is the waveform capture rate. This is usually a quite embarassing information, since typical rates are few thousands wfms/s, which means you are loosing a big portion of time from a trigger to the following.
    I did never see the current triggering rate visualized on the screen, although I think it could be interesting.

    For my hobby I'm going to buy a Rigol, but after seeing the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuE-jkpyN4Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuE-jkpyN4Q), which is referred to the old Rigol series, I'm wondering if that thing which seems an artifact (the vertical lines shown when the scale or the waveform changes) has been solved in the 1000E, or if you think it was a problem coming from the waveform generator. Another thing that makes me hesitant is the comparing with GDS1000, but there is another thread on that topic. Unfortunately there are too few Instek owners...
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: saturation on August 24, 2010, 11:23:13 am
    Great post and insight.  Will give those probe techniques a detailed look into.

    Entry-level DSO's tend to exaggerate noise, since they can only show one intensity. A CRT does some sort of intensity grading, random noise tends to be darker than the stable signal, so you hardly see it. More expensive scopes try to emulate this behavior, but the Rigol will just show you the last signal at a constant intensity. It's also possible that the Rigol front-end produces more noise, since the HP was probably higher-end when it was new.

    This persistance mode can only work on repetitive signals; it can't work on single sweep.   However, on single sweeps the noise just sits there; it doesn't dance around attracting your attention like it does on repetitive sweep.

    This is a dubious "feature", more gimmick, or even bug, than feature.   Although it can be useful sometimes, its primary effect, particularly if defaulted to on, is to make the scope superficially appear more accurate while actually making it less accurate.   Showing you the noise in your signal can be just as important as showing the intended signal.   Sometimes you want to clean up the signal but this should be done at your explicit request, after you have seen the noise, rather than hiding the noise.    I have spent a lot of time extracting small signals from large amounts of noise; there is a place for cleaned up signals.

    The Rigol does have an infinite persistance mode (:DISPlay:PERSist), where each pixel, once written remains visible, though at a reduced intensity compared to the current refresh.   This has roughly the opposite effect as the form of persistance described above as it actually highlights noise; this is likely to be more useful.  It does not have exponential decay which would give the gimmick effect, though that ought to be easy to add.

    The rigol has an averaging mode, where multiple sweeps are averaged together.   When you want to clean up the signal and hide the noise, this is more genuinely useful than the phosphor gimick.    It is vector rather than raster based, so the high resolution data sent to the computer is cleaned up and measurements made on the oscilloscope or on the computer can use the cleaned up data.   In addition, it has filter modes that operate on the waveform (:CHANnel1:FILTer).    The Rigol does have a switchable 20Mhz bandwidth limit (:CHANNEL1:BWLIMIT) on the input channels which can suppress high frequency noise which may be outside the frequency response of your circuity, anyway.   Thus, when you do need to clean your data (preferably after inspecting the uncleaned data, first), you have several ways to do so.

    One use for persistance is when using the scope as an XY display, such as when displaying simulated laser show effects (http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2007/08/youscope_oscilloscope_dem.html).    However, the Rigol lacks a Z axis modulation input.   Analog modulation would require an additional expensive high speed A/D converter channel, though it would be a zero marginal cost feature on a 4 channel scope.    Digital (on/off) modulation, however, could employ the trigger input on the scope.  It just takes some extra bits in memory; the memory on many fpga's is organized in multiples of 9 bits wide vs 8 bits wide so the extra bits may be free.   Thus digital modulation should be a zero marginal cost upgrade on the 2 channel models.

    Some noise might be an artifact of overclocking the A/D converters.    One of the differences of the higher graded parts is that they might actually settle to within noise specs in the shorter alloted time available at 100Mhz vs  40Mhz.   On more sluggish parts that don't make the grade, the signal may not have fully settled and may be between two A/D counts.    While 1 count of noise is unavoidable as a signal may hover on the boundary between two counts effectively producing a very high noise gain, settling effects might not be consistent from sweep to sweep.

    The Rigol doesn't antialias lines which can produce jagged edges on diagonal lines which are inherent on rasterized displays without antialiasing.   It does appear as if it usually displays the trace by plotting two pixels vertically instead of one, but not always.   This may happen when the 256 counts are reduced to somewhat less vertical pixels as a way of displaying intermediate values beyond the display resolution.   This may make the noise appear a little more subdued but may also make it appear like there is 1 pixel of additional noise when you scrutinize the display.

    A significant source of noise can be pickup in the probe.   If you clip the probe ground lead to the tip, you have created a loop antenna which picks up noise from the surroundings.   For illustration purposes, If you set this loop on top of the scope (inside the area occupied by the handle), you will see some some very significant noise from the scope itself at 2mV per division.   Now, hold the clip and rotate the probe 180 degrees about its axis.    This changes the ground lead from a loop to a figure 8, which like a twisted pair produces some cancelling.   Even in such close proximity to the noise source, this drops the noise by more than half.   Of course, you can also appear to get the opposite effect if you start in a less noisy area and rotate half the loop into the noisy area, so keep the loop(s) centered on the same area.

    Emulating the persistance/brightness defects of an analog scope is a lot like tube vs transistor amplifiers.    You can emulate the poorer fidelity of a tube amplifier on a solid state amplifier with a handfull of components, but only an Audiophool would argue that the tube amplifier is superior.   You can give people a choice if they prefer a distorted aesthetic, just as you can blur a high quality image for a particular aesthetic but a camera which can only produce blurred images is inferior.   Choice is good, locking people into bad choices or defaulting them to on so they bite the unwary, is bad.

    Most of the noise on the scope at logic level scales is +/-1 count.   At the 2mv/div level, it is noticeably higher but not that different from my Tektronix 2236 Analog Oscilloscope, which cost about $3500 when I bought it new or about $9700 in todays dollars.   On 2mV per division (and 500uS) with a looped probe, most of the noise is within about 2 minor divisions (plus a few spikes) on the Rigol and a little over 1 on the Tektronix, using the Rigol probe on 1x in both cases, though a good portion of that difference may be the analog scope hiding the noise.   With foil shorting the probe tip to the ground ring or with the probes disconnected, both scopes show about 1 minor division of noise.   It is more noticable on the Rigol, but it isn't really worse.  This is with a fan, a computer, two LCD monitors, a cell phone, a WiFi router, a DSL modem, a gigabit ethernet switch, a laser printer and an injet  printer/scanner, a barcode printer, a DVD recorder, a couple compact fluorescent light bulbs, a keyboard and mouse, a laptop, an air conditioner, assorted cables, and two oscilloscopes making noise in the immediate vicinity.   However, outside RF is significantly attenuated.


    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: alm on August 24, 2010, 07:23:10 pm
    An information which is often not present or well hidden on scope's specs is the waveform capture rate. This is usually a quite embarassing information, since typical rates are few thousands wfms/s, which means you are loosing a big portion of time from a trigger to the following.
    I did never see the current triggering rate visualized on the screen, although I think it could be interesting.
    Absolutely, although a few thousand wfms/s is actually much better than average, I don't think cheap DSO are anywhere close to that. Something in the order of 10-100wfms/s probably, and less with features like math/measurements enabled (sometimes <10wfms/s). Trigger re-arm time is another related parameter, although this is often specified. DSOs are much worse in this regard than analog scopes, although high-end DSOs are much better (I think they can do in the order of 100kwfm/s or so now). Another example where you need an expensive DSO to come close to the performance of a cheap old analog scope.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: jahonen on August 24, 2010, 07:47:28 pm
    An information which is often not present or well hidden on scope's specs is the waveform capture rate. This is usually a quite embarassing information, since typical rates are few thousands wfms/s, which means you are loosing a big portion of time from a trigger to the following.
    I did never see the current triggering rate visualized on the screen, although I think it could be interesting.
    Absolutely, although a few thousand wfms/s is actually much better than average, I don't think cheap DSO are anywhere close to that. Something in the order of 10-100wfms/s probably, and less with features like math/measurements enabled (sometimes <10wfms/s). Trigger re-arm time is another related parameter, although this is often specified. DSOs are much worse in this regard than analog scopes, although high-end DSOs are much better (I think they can do in the order of 100kwfm/s or so now). Another example where you need an expensive DSO to come close to the performance of a cheap old analog scope.

    Agilent explains how waveform capture rate affects the capability to catch rare events in their application note: http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-7885EN.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5989-7885EN.pdf).

    Agilent 5-6-7k series scopes do the 100kwfm/s, Tektronix TDS 3000 does about 3600 wfm/s when using standard 10kpts record length and their 4000-series drop to seconds/waveform if maximum 10 Mpts record length is used (what the hell, it is tediously slow, good for single sweeps but unusable for live adjustments). New Rohde&Schwarz scopes with special ASIC claims 1 Mwfm/s (haven't seen that live yet).

    Regards,
    Janne
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: scrat on August 25, 2010, 01:58:39 pm
    Mid-end oscilloscopes like Tek's DPO7000 can go to 250k wfms/s, but of course visualization is a big problem there, since screen refresh rate is much lower. Then the fastest update rates can be reached only when in a strange display mode, which shows waveforms in a color-grade (by rate of occurence of each point) going from red to blue. So one can actually see rare events better than with "digital phosphor" behaviour, but having all the traces with the same colours is a bit confusing (search for "FastAcq" in the text of this page: http://www2.tek.com/cmswpt/psdetails.lotr?ct=PS&cs=psu&ci=13306&lc=EN). Of course, this allows for succesive proper triggering of the rare event, choosing one of the numerous modes...
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: lynx on August 28, 2010, 05:20:40 pm
    >>drieg


    Hello, it would be awesome if you can do anything to help! Here is the information you requested:

    PCB rev: 10 12
    HW rev: DEMO7

    >>Meiner

    I bought them off ebay, I have yet to recieve them.






    Hello,

    I have now reflashed my scope with the imagefile provided by drieg and the oscilloscope is alive!

    Thank you drieg!


     











    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: drieg on August 29, 2010, 08:01:35 am
    HTH  8)

    If there is anyone else with partially or totally bricked scope after FW up/downgrade or unsuccessful "100MHz hack", feel free to contact me...

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: shirsch on August 29, 2010, 01:41:36 pm
    HTH  8)
    If there is anyone else with partially or totally bricked scope after FW up/downgrade or unsuccessful "100MHz hack", feel free to contact me...

    Does this require direct programming of the flash memory part, or is it applied through the USB port?  If the former, is it via JTAG or unsoldering + insertion in a programmer?  My scope is not bricked, but I have friends who are toying with the idea of the hack and would like to understand the disaster recovery path a bit better.

    Thanks for your good work!
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: drieg on August 29, 2010, 05:05:04 pm
    It depends on the concrete situation. Different issue, different approach. If the scope is totaly dead, the only way is to programm the flash via BlackFins's JTAG or in external programmer. The prerequisite for both is that the part of flash where unique "factory calibration data" are stored is not corrupted.

    In case of partially working scope (dimlow, shafri and others), there are always more possibilities...
    Title: Re: bricked scopes
    Post by: Meiner on August 29, 2010, 09:52:43 pm
    @lynx
    @Meiner

    I could be of any help reconstructing your FLASH content. The vital data seems to be OK in both cases. Could tell me the HW version (e.g. "DEM07") and the PCB version (e.g. "0941") of your scopes?

    Hi drieg,

    my board is a DEMO7 but "94V-0". Hope you can help me, too!
    Thanks, Meiner
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Meiner on August 29, 2010, 10:06:25 pm
    >>Meiner

    I bought them off ebay, I have yet to recieve them.


    Hi Lynx,
    I could not find any TS048 ZIF socket offers in ebay. Could you pls tell me a supplier or would you recommend to solder a flash containing a hex from drieg (still hoping I'll get one!) ?

    Meiner
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: lynx on September 01, 2010, 08:08:53 pm
    >>Meiner

    I bought them off ebay, I have yet to recieve them.


    Hi Lynx,
    I could not find any TS048 ZIF socket offers in ebay. Could you pls tell me a supplier or would you recommend to solder a flash containing a hex from drieg (still hoping I'll get one!) ?

    Meiner


    Ultimately I ended up not using them so if you want them you can have them just send me a PM.

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: ceut on September 26, 2010, 08:10:07 pm
    Hello all  :)
    I'm new here, and I look at the DS1052E as I'm very interested in.
    I would like to unlock it too if I buy it, so I've read all the interesting informations that are here.
    For moment, I wait before buying it because of the calibration problem...

    For PIC, memory etc.. programming, I use a lot a good and not very expensive programmer that I find here http://www.mcumall.com/comersus/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=4312 (http://www.mcumall.com/comersus/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=4312)
    (You can see compatibility list here http://www.mcumall.com/comersus/store/mcumall_TrueUSBWillemsupportICs.asp (http://www.mcumall.com/comersus/store/mcumall_TrueUSBWillemsupportICs.asp))

    PS: sorry for my english, it's not my langage  :)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: drieg on September 28, 2010, 10:10:17 am
    Hello,

    I have now reflashed my scope with the imagefile provided by drieg and the oscilloscope is alive!

    Thank you drieg!

    I've started a new thread to help people with unsuccessful Rigol DS1102E hack:
    https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=1379.0 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=1379.0)
     
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: ceut on September 30, 2010, 06:09:45 am
    Hello all!
    I have found that
    http://www.goodluckbuy.com/atten-ads1102ca-100mhz-digital-oscilloscope-dso-ads1102.html (http://www.goodluckbuy.com/atten-ads1102ca-100mhz-digital-oscilloscope-dso-ads1102.html)
    I found that this one is not very expensive for a 100Mhz DSO.
    It looks like the Rigol...
    Does anyone know this model(Atten ADS1102) ?
    Thanks  ;)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: scrat on September 30, 2010, 06:52:07 am
    Hello all!
    I have found that
    http://www.goodluckbuy.com/atten-ads1102ca-100mhz-digital-oscilloscope-dso-ads1102.html (http://www.goodluckbuy.com/atten-ads1102ca-100mhz-digital-oscilloscope-dso-ads1102.html)
    I found that this one is not very expensive for a 100Mhz DSO.
    It looks like the Rigol...
    Does anyone know this model(Atten ADS1102) ?
    Thanks  ;)

    It seems there is a big difference, if (as I suppose) they are selling the ADS1000 series: "Memory depth of ADS1000 is 4K and that of ADS1000M is 2M"
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: ceut on September 30, 2010, 06:52:25 pm
    It seems there is a big difference, if (as I suppose) they are selling the ADS1000 series: "Memory depth of ADS1000 is 4K and that of ADS1000M is 2M"
    Apparently they sell the ADS1102CA, and after looking at official website  
    http://www.attenelectronics.com/products/rf_microwave/ADS1000.htm (http://www.attenelectronics.com/products/rf_microwave/ADS1000.htm)
    I see that:
    ADS1102CA:
    Bandwith: 100MHz
    Sampling Rate: 1GSa/s
    Equivalent Sampling Rate: 50GSa/s
    Memory Depth: - Single Channel 2M
                         - Double Channels 1M/CH

    Rise Time: <3.5ns
    Input Impedance: 1M?||13pF
    Sec/div Range: 2.5ns/div-50s/div
    Roll?100ms-50s/div

    Seems to be good ? What do you think?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: scrat on October 01, 2010, 12:54:13 pm
    From this data it seems a good alternative to the Rigol, and it's cheaper. Unfortunately, while the Rigol has been tested and reviewed by many users, the Atten has not, so there could be minor details which make one of the two better than the other (about usability, for example).
    However, consider that for many people these Atten products are copies of Rigol ones, and ADS1000 seems a copy of DS1000CA, the old Rigol series (take a look at this forum, too: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=663958&page=33 (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=663958&page=33)).
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: ceut on October 01, 2010, 04:59:25 pm
    From this data it seems a good alternative to the Rigol, and it's cheaper. Unfortunately, while the Rigol has been tested and reviewed by many users, the Atten has not, so there could be minor details which make one of the two better than the other (about usability, for example).
    However, consider that for many people these Atten products are copies of Rigol ones, and ADS1000 seems a copy of DS1000CA, the old Rigol series (take a look at this forum, too: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=663958&page=33 (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=663958&page=33)).

    Thanks for this great information!
    I have checked the 2 DSO (ADS1102CA and DS1102CA: they're the same...)
    Atten seems to be a copy of old Rigol as you said...
    So I will buy a Rigol DSO !
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: pheller on October 01, 2010, 07:41:18 pm
    One question regarding the Trigger "Sweep".  There is a setting "Single", which per the documentation captures a single waveform.

    My question is, what comprises a "single waveform?"  Is it basically until the trigger condition goes away, or something else entirely?

    --phil
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: scrat on October 01, 2010, 07:59:55 pm
    Thanks for this great information!
    I have checked the 2 DSO (ADS1102CA and DS1102CA: they're the same...)
    Atten seems to be a copy of old Rigol as you said...
    So I will buy a Rigol DSO !

    I'm on the same way, too.
    It's been a few months now that I had this intention, but still I haven't bought it. For a time I wavered between DS1052E and GDS-1062A from Instek (which is a more reputated mark), but price has a big influence, since this will be for my hobby only (although..who knows?), and it seems that quality is good also for the Rigol (besides there is the 100MHz hack). Now you can find it on DealExtreme at 362$, and the €/$ exchange is favorable for us in Europe now, so I'm going to buy the Rigol these days.

    One question regarding the Trigger "Sweep".  There is a setting "Single", which per the documentation captures a single waveform.

    My question is, what comprises a "single waveform?"  Is it basically until the trigger condition goes away, or something else entirely?

    --phil

    Single mode allows the scope for a single trigger to be activated. So it could be called "one-shot", in other words it waits for the trigger and then acquires data until it reached the end of the screen or the end of the memory. Now I haven't one by hand, but I think it should acquire one screenshot, since by setting the sampling rate (or the timebase, if the ratio between these two is automatically set by the scope) you can decide how much time you'd like to record.
    It is used for seeing rare events, or events that are each different one from the others, even if they all could activate the trigger For example, if you want to see the response of a program on an MCU to the first time it receives a byte on the UART, you can set trigger mode on "single", falling edge trigger on the RX signal and a proper timebase, so that the screen contains the whole response of your interest. If on the UART there will be other data after the first byte, and if you were on "auto" or "normal" mode (instead of "single" you will see the series of the various responses together, so not letting you see how the first was.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: pheller on October 01, 2010, 08:12:11 pm
    Single mode allows the scope for a single trigger to be activated. So it could be called "one-shot", in other words it waits for the trigger and then acquires data until it reached the end of the screen or the end of the memory. Now I haven't one by hand, but I think it should acquire one screenshot, since by setting the sampling rate (or the timebase, if the ratio between these two is automatically set by the scope) you can decide how much time you'd like to record.
    It is used for seeing rare events, or events that are each different one from the others, even if they all could activate the trigger For example, if you want to see the response of a program on an MCU to the first time it receives a byte on the UART, you can set trigger mode on "single", falling edge trigger on the RX signal and a proper timebase, so that the screen contains the whole response of your interest. If on the UART there will be other data after the first byte, and if you were on "auto" or "normal" mode (instead of "single" you will see the series of the various responses together, so not letting you see how the first was.

    Thanks for the response.  I had also thought it might capture to fill the memory (or enough memory to fill the screen, based on horizontal timebase), but I'm a newbie with a scope, so wasn't sure. 

    I'll give it a go tomorrow to verify the operation.

    Thanks!

    --phil
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Fraser on October 21, 2010, 11:40:40 pm
    I have just completed a strip down of my DS1052E - Hardware Version 58. Purchased in September.

    It was an investigation into an impact sensitivity problem that the scope had. It turned out to be loose screws and BNC nuts !

    Whilst investigating the problem I had a good look around the motherboard and did not see any differences to the pre HW58 model so any that are present are minor. The CH1 & CH2 input circuits appear to be the same. They still have the varicap diode based bandwidth limiter and no effort has been made to deter a hardware modification. (not that such is now needed).

    What may be interesting to some is the fact that the usual IC's have been anonymised by removal of their ID markings but my scope contains IC's that appear to have been sand blasted in a very professional manner. A neat little abraded square is present on the chips rather than the usual Dremmel grinder aftermath. Very neatly done and very effective as no remnants of the chip ID remain.

    Build quality is still good, with good component placement and quality soldering but PCB 'hygiene' is poor as evidenced by finger prints and detritus on the top and bottom of the PCB (this scope is brand new). Not great but no big issue for me as the unit now works well.

    UPDATE:

    Pictures have been added.

    I have just looked at the pictures of the earlier Rigol DS1052E SMPSU and compared them to mine. There is a difference. It would appear that the high voltage CCFL power supply has now been deleted. This would suggest that the newer DS1052E may have an LED backlight for the LCD panel. I have not, however, proven this by test.

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: rf-loop on October 25, 2010, 06:33:46 pm


    What may be interesting to some is the fact that the usual IC's have been anonymised by removal of their ID markings but my scope contains IC's that appear to have been sand blasted in a very professional manner.

    They use laser.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: saturation on October 25, 2010, 08:26:27 pm
    Kudos Aurora, to a great job.  More to follow as I 've time to digest details.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: EECrAZY on October 30, 2010, 09:44:29 pm
    From the pics, looks like later versions have a mechanical AC/DC coupling relay instead of a solid state one. Another difference I noticed, input FET transistor marking changed from “K51” to “6U” which is MMBFJ309LT1. Part number with k51 marking was unknown. Thank you Rigol for giving us another part number

    I am curious if anyone figured out the part number for the buffer op amp right after VGA?
    And what is that analog support circuitry is supposed to do? As far as I found out, there is a high speed comparator there, a couple analog multiplexors and a bunch of low speed P274 dual opamps if I am looking at the right part for IC with p274 marking.

    I am trying to have a more in depth picture of what makes this beast tick and would appreciate any input
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: tinhead on October 30, 2010, 10:50:38 pm
    funny, the input circuit is not much different than the one from Tekway DSO:

    https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=1571.msg21235#msg21235 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=1571.msg21235#msg21235)

    The small ADC driver chip is in a LLP-8 package seems to be really LMH6552 (maybe hard to see on my picture but it is marked 88AB / 6552)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: EECrAZY on October 31, 2010, 03:38:11 pm
    Yeah, looks like Tekway is a improved copy of Rigol with some changes on ADC/FPGA/LCD part.
    Analog inputs are just routed differently and all that trigger support circuitry looks also very similar with the same parts...
    I am still curious what is all that circuitry is supposed to do? Would not 1 comparator be enough? I noticed there is a LT1790 reference chip,  I thought it could be used for self calibration, but turns out like it feeds a REF pin of LTC2601 DAC. Rigol board does not have those parts.
    There are a few analog multiplexers there with -1Db drop at 100Mhz, Could that be a bottleneck? Seems like the rest of the components would handle 200Mhz+ not a problem
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: EECrAZY on October 31, 2010, 10:58:11 pm
    that's the self-calibration unit, it runs with 125Mhz.
     
    Do you mean that it has a 125Meg oscillator on board which is used for the sole purpose of selfcalibration???

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: tinhead on October 31, 2010, 11:16:39 pm
    that's the self-calibration unit, it runs with 125Mhz.
     
    Do you mean that it has a 125Meg oscillator on board which is used for the sole purpose of selfcalibration???



    i've answered here:
    https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=1571.msg22123#msg22123 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=1571.msg22123#msg22123)

    let's leave Rigol thread only Rigol related (even if probably Rigol is using the same self-calibration way but with different DAC)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: EECrAZY on November 01, 2010, 06:21:25 pm
    Ok, finally took my rigol apart, warranty sticker removes very easily using the same method people use on xbox.
    Measured some signals, there is a small DAC chip with "D5G" marking. Looks like its constantly fed  by CPU/FPGA, so the output is steps of different height.
    DAC output feeds two 4051 multiplexors, which are being  switched by 8khz counter.
    I am wondering if they use this approach to generate offset voltages, trigger levels etc with only 1 DAC?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: dealexcel on November 02, 2010, 03:53:48 am
    Ted come here again, if you guys are still interested in ds1052e scope, welcome to my site anytime 8)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mechatrommer on November 02, 2010, 07:18:32 am
    Ted come here again, if you guys are still interested in ds1052e scope, welcome to my site anytime 8)
    update your own thread! >:( :P
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: EECrAZY on November 03, 2010, 04:57:06 pm
    Turns out that I was right in my previous post, single DAC output is multiplexed and used to generate multiple voltages for A,B offset as well as trigger level.

    Interesting thing is that it also generates a saw like voltage with 2seconds period! Any ideas what it can be used for? I was not able to trace where its output goes.

    Another interesting thing is they always clock ADCs at 100MHz, even at the lowest sampling rate. So I guess FPGA just skips unwanted samples. Would be nice if it could go down to 20Mhz at lower sample frequencies, I am sure it would reduce the heat quite a bit
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: EECrAZY on November 06, 2010, 06:43:57 pm
    Rigol’s 1Gs interleaved ADCs seem to be a problem and completely useless at higher frequencies

    Upon further analysis of their schematic, it turns out that all ADCs are clocked directly from Cyclon III FPGA. Looking at the datasheet, Cyclon III PLL has 300ps of jitter on the output clock… that means sample uncertainty of 300ps! Using a standard equation we can determine that at 100Mhz input frequency, we have SNR of only 20db! Or effective resolution of 3.4 bits.

    Note that unlike offset and gain errors, those 300ps are random and can not be corrected by any digital post filtering

    Please correct me if I missed something. Any ideas from the experts?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Fraser on November 06, 2010, 07:06:41 pm
    Hmmmm. 300ps jitter present at all times or maximum of 300ps jitter worst case scenario. There is a difference.

    We already know that Rigol have employed some clever(?) tricks to provide a 1Gs/s DSO at a great price. Should we not be testing and reporting the real world performanace rather than using a chip manufacturers worst case scenario jitter figure ? Just a thought.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: EECrAZY on November 06, 2010, 09:10:13 pm
    yeah, 300ps is a 10^-12 probability (14 sigma) peak to peak jitter. So really it translate to 20ps rms jitter which would give us 44 db SNR or resolution of 7.3 effective bits.

    I agree that this tool is worth the money, One thing I dont like, they pushed it to 1Gsa for marketing purpose because higher numbers bring customers. They know most of us cant really tests the performance up to the limits, especially considering a low end market.

    I would really like to see some real life measurement at 100+ Mhz input and 1GSa. I bet you should be able to see some noise due to interleaving multiple ADCs
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: tinhead on November 06, 2010, 09:16:57 pm
    correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't for interleaved ADCs the clock shit accuracy more important ? That's 50ps between rising edges of each clock period (which is probably measure period).

    In a worst case we can still solder 10bit ADCs (AD9218, pin compatible to AD9288) and use only 8 MSB bits ^^
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: EECrAZY on November 06, 2010, 09:41:25 pm
    correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't for interleaved ADCs the clock shit more important ? That's 50ps between rising edges of each clock period (which is probably measure period).

    In a worst case we can still solder 10bit ADCs (AD9218, pin compatible to AD9288) and use only 8 MSB bits ^^

    In ideal world you would have 10ADCs sampled at 10ns with 1ns phase shift. Lets say due to clock jitter this phase shift varies randomply from 0.9 to 1.1 ns. That creates an uncertainty window of when sample is digitized.

    Using a 10 bit ADC makes no difference if effective number of bits is 7. You only need 7 bits to resolve your signal above the noise floor. 3 LSBs will be randomly floating (measuring random noise). In case of 8 bit ADC 1 bit will be measuring noise

    50 ps phase shift error you mentioned is constant. Unlike random jitter, it can be eliminated by calibration.

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: tinhead on November 06, 2010, 11:12:46 pm
    Exact, in the theory each ADC is sampled with 1ns phase shift with no jitter.
    The sampled data is available always on rising edge (actually after aperture delay).

    The 300ps PLL jitter is a full period jitter, but we still within one period so the "jitter" is only ±50ps due PLL shift inaccuracy.
    After such full sample cycle of course there can be 300ps jitter to next rising edge but that's different story, there will be anyway
    "a window" due 2000 waveforms/sec.

    Not sure how Rigol is using the ADCs, but probably with data align enabled - each ADC in AD9288 shifted by 180°
    and all AD9288 shifted by 2ns to each other.

    btw, the 10bit ADC was a joke ^^, it will requiere clock with less jitter anyway.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: EECrAZY on November 07, 2010, 01:03:31 am
    Well, yes and no. May be data within 1 period is indeed not affected by period jitter. But you still need to have evenly spaced samples.  Looking at 10ns of data is impractical in most cases, so you will see visual distortions and much more noise on FFT.

    Actually, I dont believe AD9288 data align provides 180 degree phase shift. Its only for the output, data is still sampled independently on the rising edge of each clock. But output from channel B is 1/2 period delayed.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: tinhead on November 07, 2010, 01:34:41 am
    Actually, I dont believe AD9288 data align provides 180 degree phase shift. Its only for the output, data is still sampled independently on the rising edge of each clock. But output from channel B is 1/2 period delayed.


    well the clock need to be shifted by 180 degree for data align.
    I did checked my Tekway, and it is not using this mode. Actually it is set to S1=1 and S2=0,
    so sampled data and clock are both shifted by 180 degree.
    As this is standard mode with two clocks Rigol will have probably same settings.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mechatrommer on November 07, 2010, 01:35:27 am
    keep up the good work! i'm looking forward to see any new hack/improvement or detailed performance report coming in. ;)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: EECrAZY on November 07, 2010, 05:01:29 am
    I did checked my Tekway, and it is not using this mode. Actually it is set to S1=1 and S2=0,
    so sampled data and clock are both shifted by 180 degree.
    As this is standard mode with two clocks Rigol will have probably same settings.

    No, just checked my Rigol and both S0 and S1 pins are tied to Vdd. It does use phase align, though it makes no difference  hence you still need 10 clocks shifted by 1ns
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: flolic on December 06, 2010, 07:32:30 am

    Maybe someone can unsolder the varicap and test with 2 x 2.2pF (1.1pF total) in series, i can't because i'm Tekway/Hantek "junkie" (flolic maybe you?)

    You mean to solder 1.1pF instead of varicap? Yes, I can try that. But I removed that 160pF caps long time ago...  ;D
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: saturation on December 06, 2010, 05:17:00 pm
    There's an interesting review of the 1052E from a Chinese electronics blog by Dengbao Ming, who has excellent electronics info on his blog from a China perspective [ in Chinese], and Rigol in general.

    Here he suggests the 1052E achieves price/performance by overclocking its ADC:

    http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&u=http://tm.eefocus.com/stupid/blog/09-08/174557_df398.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3D3458a%2Breview%2Beefocus%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DPGy%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26prmd%3Div&rurl=translate.google.com&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhiSnedF1biRtFDQGEQxdg7c2i3VgQ (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&u=http://tm.eefocus.com/stupid/blog/09-08/174557_df398.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3D3458a%2Breview%2Beefocus%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DPGy%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26prmd%3Div&rurl=translate.google.com&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhiSnedF1biRtFDQGEQxdg7c2i3VgQ)


    He suggests, in reading through his his commentary, Rigol copies Agilent products, while Tekway copies Tektronixs.

    In this editorial, he discusses a Japanese article comparing 100MHz scopes, and the Rigol does quite well:

    http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&u=http://tm.eefocus.com/stupid/blog/09-12/182020_8ab4d.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3D3458a%2Breview%2Beefocus%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DPGy%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26prmd%3Div&rurl=translate.google.com&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhhFUMkVbRLCNl6yKQ_PtP6JsCv26Q (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&u=http://tm.eefocus.com/stupid/blog/09-12/182020_8ab4d.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3D3458a%2Breview%2Beefocus%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DPGy%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26prmd%3Div&rurl=translate.google.com&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhhFUMkVbRLCNl6yKQ_PtP6JsCv26Q)

    He also link eevblog articles on the Rigol from 2009.

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: saturation on December 06, 2010, 05:27:17 pm
    Here's a translated copy of the judgment against ATTEN for copying Rigol's DSO, to which Rigol does hold some patents:

    http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&tl=en&u=http://tm.eefocus.com/stupid/blog/08-10/148013_1c657.html&rurl=translate.google.com&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhjbNRzieaY2xqqjOTuu5O65A0XfGg (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&tl=en&u=http://tm.eefocus.com/stupid/blog/08-10/148013_1c657.html&rurl=translate.google.com&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhjbNRzieaY2xqqjOTuu5O65A0XfGg)

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: tinhead on December 07, 2010, 02:13:29 am
    the most important part is : "Court ... rejected Rigol claims". A patent for piece of standard electronic component combined into a specific function (like here video trigger) is a joke. The most important part are not the components, it is the firmware.

    I don't see any patent violations even if someone just copied 1:1 the whole PCB/parts, just because they can do with different firmware different things. For sure we know that ATTEN did reversed parts of firmware and implemented on already 1:1 cloned hardware - and that's why Rigol is pissed off - but as long you have you own written firmware everything fine (even in NA), you have only to follow rules of legal reverse engineering.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Dago on December 07, 2010, 05:13:40 pm
    Hey, does anyone know if all the serial commands for rigols interface are listed somewhere? I didn't find them in the manual. Found some small tutorial on serial communication with rigol equipment from their site but it did not list commands. I'm asking because I'm writing a C++ library (and hopefully a terminal tool you can use in scripts and such) for communicating with the DS1052E/DS1102E. I have quite a lot of commands implemented already (like reset, stop, run, force, IDN, voltage scale, voltage offset, memdepth, time scale, time offset, probe attenuation, coupling, lock/unlock the scope and how to read raw data) but I'm missing quite a lot of commands. For example I haven't found how I can enable/disable channels and how I can read/change the trigger settings. After those I think I'd have a pretty usable library. Anyone have any info on those?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Fraser on December 07, 2010, 06:15:02 pm
    I found the Rigol DS1000E programming guide on their site.... that may be what you need as it contains all manner of commands.

    Take a look here:

    http://www.rigolna.com/pdfs/Programming_Guides/DS1000E_Programming_Guide.pdf (http://www.rigolna.com/pdfs/Programming_Guides/DS1000E_Programming_Guide.pdf)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Dago on December 07, 2010, 07:07:15 pm
    I found the Rigol DS1000E programming guide on their site.... that may be what you need as it contains all manner of commands.

    Take a look here:

    http://www.rigolna.com/pdfs/Programming_Guides/DS1000E_Programming_Guide.pdf (http://www.rigolna.com/pdfs/Programming_Guides/DS1000E_Programming_Guide.pdf)

    That looks exactly what I need, thanks!
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: scrat on December 07, 2010, 07:14:24 pm
    In this forum page, there is a list of undocumented commands: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=1483.15 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=1483.15)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mechatrommer on December 07, 2010, 09:44:16 pm
    just about time. updated to Rigol Control Version 1.0.2 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=1483.0)
    Title: 2.04 SP3 firmware available somewhere (for readout of calibration data)
    Post by: Pinkus on December 08, 2010, 06:59:54 pm
    Hello,
    just because of this blog I ordered a DS1052E and was lucky to get one of the last with a non 2.05 firmware.
    Thanks guys!

    The scope came with 2.04 SP1 and HW58. Before I do anything with it I would like to upgrade my firmware to version 2.04 SP3 as this version allows to read out the calibration data byte (which I would then store away).

    I cannot find any firmware for the DS1052E on the Rigol pages. There is 2.04 available somewhere but not SP3 and what I understood only SP3 allows the readout of the calibration data with the new :CAL: command.
    Does anybody can provide 2.04 SP3 to me either with a link of by email?

    Thank you for your help.
    Peter
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Fraser on December 08, 2010, 07:58:31 pm
    Peter,

    Where did you hear about 2.04 SP3 ?

    To my knowledge 2.04SP1 was the last OEM version before the 2.05 release. I am aware of some 'custom' firmware that was created by a third party when 2.04 SP1 was unavailable and people had calibration isues, but that was named 2.04 SP2 I believe. You could be looking for a bespoke version of the firmware that was released by a third party and not Rigol.

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Pinkus on December 08, 2010, 10:09:14 pm
    Aurora,
    I read it here: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15479444&postcount=912 (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15479444&postcount=912)
    and here http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15488703&postcount=915 (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15488703&postcount=915)

    In the meantime I found one link on a Chinese page pointing to a file which contains several firmware versions.
    This is the link:  http://rapidshare.com/files/412320775/DS1052_to_DS1102.zip.html (http://rapidshare.com/files/412320775/DS1052_to_DS1102.zip.html)

    Also I another forum (where I asked the same question) somebody posted this as a reply:
    "Peter, you can download Firmware 2.04 SP3 from rigolna.com:
    http://www.rigolna.com/pdfs/Firmware/DS1000E(D)_2.04_Firmware.rar (http://www.rigolna.com/pdfs/Firmware/DS1000E(D)_2.04_Firmware.rar) "


    I just downloaded them, I did not install yet. Both links shall contain 02.04.00.03
    Peter
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Pinkus on December 08, 2010, 10:43:08 pm
    OK, probably I set myself on the wrong track. I thought 02.04.00.03 means servicepack 3 but I just figured out that my scope says 02.04 SP1 when starting up, but with *IDN? shows 02.04.01.02 - thus the 3rd number is the service pack and thus 02.04.00.03 will very probably NOT be service pack 3. Sorry! I apologize for any confusion.

    However, I got trapped because I tried to use either
    :CAL:TSENS? or :CALIBRATE:TSENSITIVITY? as mentioned at the RCGroups links I posted above and I did not get any feedback from the scope for these commands. Thus I thought I have an older firmware but obviously I have not.

    This brings me to the question: was anybody able to read out the calibration data with these commands? Am I doing anything wrong (wrong command etc.)?

    Thanks
    Peter
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: phunk on December 10, 2010, 06:11:07 pm
    i replaced the fan of the scope like someone had the idea in the very beginning of this thread.
    You can find it here if interested:
    https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=1945.0 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=1945.0)

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Dago on December 13, 2010, 01:41:33 pm
    Can anyone give me any pointers on how to use the ":WAVEFORM:POINTS:MODE MAXIMUM" mode?

    I've tried this (in code): stop the scope -> set ":WAVEFORM:POINTS:MODE MAXIMUM" mode -> run scope -> wait for trigger status change to triggered -> stop scope -> get data. But I still get just 600 points of data. What am I doing wrong?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: scrat on December 13, 2010, 04:26:07 pm
    Can anyone give me any pointers on how to use the ":WAVEFORM:POINTS:MODE MAXIMUM" mode?

    I've tried this (in code): stop the scope -> set ":WAVEFORM:POINTS:MODE MAXIMUM" mode -> run scope -> wait for trigger status change to triggered -> stop scope -> get data. But I still get just 600 points of data. What am I doing wrong?
    I suggest looking at the above posts from Shafri, he links to a control GUI he has developed for the Rigol, maybe this can help.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: mxmxmx on December 14, 2010, 08:43:32 am
    Can anyone give me any pointers on how to use the ":WAVEFORM:POINTS:MODE MAXIMUM" mode?

    I've tried this (in code): stop the scope -> set ":WAVEFORM:POINTS:MODE MAXIMUM" mode -> run scope -> wait for trigger status change to triggered -> stop scope -> get data. But I still get just 600 points of data. What am I doing wrong?

    Use the single shot mode.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Dago on December 14, 2010, 09:02:54 am
    Can anyone give me any pointers on how to use the ":WAVEFORM:POINTS:MODE MAXIMUM" mode?

    I've tried this (in code): stop the scope -> set ":WAVEFORM:POINTS:MODE MAXIMUM" mode -> run scope -> wait for trigger status change to triggered -> stop scope -> get data. But I still get just 600 points of data. What am I doing wrong?

    Use the single shot mode.

    I just figured out this myself but thanks :)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: n3wbie on December 14, 2010, 03:43:09 pm
    Does this 50 to 100MHz hack still work with the newer Rigol? DS1052E's?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Crippled on December 14, 2010, 06:48:41 pm
    Does this 50 to 100MHz hack still work with the newer Rigol? DS1052E's?
    I ordered mine December 1st at DX, when I receive it, I'll place it here if it is possible to hack or has the 02.05 version.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: n3wbie on December 14, 2010, 08:12:51 pm
    Are you the same "Crippled" as on the dx forum?

    http://www.dealextreme.com/forums/Forums.dx/Forum.-202~threadid.764985 (http://www.dealextreme.com/forums/Forums.dx/Forum.-202~threadid.764985)

    Quote from: NAND74
    I would like to order a Rigol DS1052E. Got a few questions.
    Is it possible to find the firmware version of the Rigol DS1052E.
    That would be very important to me.
    Quote from: crippled
    You'll get 02.05

    There's no known hack for the 2.05 version of the firmware, right? (we can't downgrade the firmware and hack and then upgrade again, can we?).
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Crippled on December 15, 2010, 10:54:19 am
    Yes, i am :)
    I had to wait a while because they had to order from the supplier, so I guess they ordered from rigol, thus the firmware will be 02.05, still unhackable.

    I wonder if there are bare jtag pins on the pcb?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: darrylp on December 16, 2010, 12:09:46 am
    .....

    I wonder if there are bare jtag pins on the pcb?


    http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14825548&postcount=49 (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14825548&postcount=49)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: tinhead on December 18, 2010, 12:51:04 am
    Yeah, looks like Tekway is a improved copy of Rigol with some changes on ADC/FPGA/LCD part.
    Analog inputs are just routed differently and all that trigger support circuitry looks also very similar with the same parts...
    I am still curious what is all that circuitry is supposed to do? Would not 1 comparator be enough? I noticed there is a LT1790 reference chip,  I thought it could be used for self calibration, but turns out like it feeds a REF pin of LTC2601 DAC. Rigol board does not have those parts.
    There are a few analog multiplexers there with -1Db drop at 100Mhz, Could that be a bottleneck? Seems like the rest of the components would handle 200Mhz+ not a problem

    i did checked what the LTC2601 and LT1790 are for. The DAC vout is conected via 4051 analog mux over TLV274C to the varicap
    in lowpass filter (that's the Control 2 signal from link below, i was wondering where the "2.7V" and "100mV" are coming from,
    for sure not from hc595 so i traced back to the middle TLV274 in trigger stage).

    https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=30.msg2697#msg2697 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=30.msg2697#msg2697)

    Rigol is a bit different, no idea why (maybe just because Tekway have 3 bw's with same design and Rigol only 2)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: macpod on December 19, 2010, 07:09:51 pm
    Is it possible to save on-screen measurement and cursor values in the bmp along with the waveform with the Rigol DS1052E?

    Currently when I save a bmp only the waveform is saved and I can't find a setting to change this.

    edit: Huh, I seem to be able to save everything now. I think the issue was I entered the disk manager instead of pressing the external button to save to the usb stick.

    Nevermind!
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: jedreg on December 27, 2010, 12:24:45 am
    Hi everybody,
    I was drilling for some time the subject of Rigol but just recently noticed that software upgrade for FW 02.05 is not (yet) possible. I believe one day some smart guy bring the SW hack, but meanwhile I would like to make sure, there is backup with hardware hack (I am hobbyist :). I have read initial posts but I have not seen that removal of C1 (on drawing in this post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=30.msg2697#msg2697)) is confirmed as valid. And what about range for wider bandwidth, will the DSO switch to faster time base or just measurements/interpolation will be more accurate?

    cheers,
    andy.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: tinhead on December 27, 2010, 01:31:02 pm
    Hi everybody,
    I was drilling for some time the subject of Rigol but just recently noticed that software upgrade for FW 02.05 is not (yet) possible. I believe one day some smart guy bring the SW hack, but meanwhile I would like to make sure, there is backup with hardware hack (I am hobbyist :). I have read initial posts but I have not seen that removal of C1 (on drawing in this post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=30.msg2697#msg2697)) is confirmed as valid. And what about range for wider bandwidth, will the DSO switch to faster time base or just measurements/interpolation will be more accurate?

    cheers,
    andy.

    Andy,
    i did published schematics of Hantek/Tekway DSO input stage, they similar to what you will find in Rigol

    https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1571.0;attach=5089 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1571.0;attach=5089)

    From the schematic you can see that pure hardware hack can work (AD8370 output impedance 95 Ohm, varicap and the two 160pf are low pass filters)
    however this is only a part of the story. The firmware itself, if switched to higher model, is working different and have more options (time base).

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: jedreg on December 28, 2010, 03:42:53 pm
    tinhead, thanx for explanation. I have just spotted in another thread where the killerwhale user successfully cracked FW 2.05, see this post (link) (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=553.msg28048#msg28048), which makes me one step closer to the deal. Now I see how many amazing people is attracted to this forum.

    If anyone of you bought Rigol on dealextreme.com please PM me and share experience. They sell this unit for $340 at the moment, which is cheapest price ever found. I am from EU so I do not bother warranty, so it can come directly from Hongkong, to give middle finger to local reseller who wants >$600.

    cheers,
    -andy.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: wd5gnr on December 29, 2010, 08:37:25 pm
    If you ever need to open your Rigol up: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=2092.0 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=2092.0)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: alm on January 14, 2011, 10:24:49 pm
    Thanks for clearing that up.

    So it's a 1GS/s scope, as long as you treat it as a single channel scope with a short memory depth. 250MS/s brings it in the range of older generations with inadequate sample rate to prevent aliasing (unless they have a really steep roll-off of the input circuit, but most bandwidth measurements suggest that it's too shallow, and converting it to 100MHz makes it worse). If you want 1GS/s, 8kpts only lets you use the extra sample rate at the fastest sweep speeds, just like the older DSO's with short memory. So it's not actually that much better than the old generation, the only advantage is that you can choose your poison (aliasing due to inadequate sample rate or aliasing due to inadequate memory).

    None of this is an issue if you don't stretch the limits of its frequency response, obviously, but why convert it to 100MHz if your signals don't come anywhere near that frequency?

    The Instek GDS-1062 (IIRC 1GS/s for one channel with long memory, 500MS/s for two channels with long memory) now looks even better compared to the Rigol DS1052E.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: jedreg on February 10, 2011, 01:49:54 pm
    I just wanted to share good news, I am next happy user of Rigol. After 4 weeks the delivery from china from dealextreme.com has come as plain and cheap "air mail". I got my device well packed and working fine. I got 2.05 SP1 is waiting for firmware hacking ;)
    Damn the national customs, I have to pay 23% tribute but still it sumes up to 2/3 or price of local reseller.

    cheers,
    andy.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: RFman on March 04, 2011, 07:01:20 am
    Hi all,

    I'm new to this forum, I would like to purchase a Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope and modify it to a 100MHz DS1102E.

    I've read all the messages up to page 28 and read how a terminal program on a PC can be connected to the RS232 port. And used to change the Model and Serial number, I shouldn't have any problems with doing that.

    The messages were some time back. I wonder if Rigol have now changed the firmware so that you can't modify the DS1052E into a 100MHz oscilloscope.

    Does anyone know if you are still able to modify the oscilloscope, or is there a new way to do this...  ???

    Thanks for your help.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Polossatik on March 04, 2011, 09:44:43 am

    I've read all the messages up to page 28 and read how a terminal program on a PC can be connected to the RS232 port. And used to change the Model and Serial number, I shouldn't have any problems with doing that.

    RS232? changing the rigol DS1052E to DS1102E using USB , the dummy guide (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=553.0)

    IT simply depends with what firmware you get the rigol. if it's the latest then you cannot hack it for the moment
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: RFman on March 04, 2011, 11:53:08 am
    As I would have to assume that a newly purchased Rigol DS1052E would have the latest firmware, I guess I'll have to give up the thought of purchasing a Rigol to convert to 100MHz. :(

    Is anyone looking at a Hack for the latest firmware.  :)

    Thanks for your help.

     
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: mga1103 on March 05, 2011, 02:51:25 am
    If you read the previous reply from Polossatik, you'll realise it doesn't matter when you get your Rigol.  It depends on what firmware is on the kit you receive!  If you want to check the version of firmware on your 1052E, follow the link in the previous post.  It tells you how to check the version of firmware you've got!

    I received a 1052E last week and it's at a firmware version: 00.02.04.00.01, HW version 57  (Patchable!).

    So, I guess it depends on the "luck of the draw"!  You could order it from a supplier that's got recent stock (thus, perhaps the latest hardware with the latest firmware) or they may have stock from God-knows-when, which may have older firmware versions.

    Bottom line is, before you order/receive one, you've no way of knowing what firmware version you're likely to receive!

    If you read the thread linked to in the previous post to the end, you may get the feeling that it's just a matter of time before someone finds a hack for the latest firmware version (just speculating  ;)).  (Still a good machine for the money even without the hack, IMHO).

    Regards,
    Martin.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mechatrommer on March 05, 2011, 11:39:40 am
    i'm looking forward people asking the oldest stock from seller, a rare occasion ;)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Russel on March 06, 2011, 03:36:55 am
    I received a new DS1052E last Friday. Firmware version 00.02.05 SP2. Hardware version 58. I'm no expert with an oscilloscope, but I'm keeping my eye out for firmware bugs to report to Rigol and keeping my eye out for new hack developments.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: joh on March 15, 2011, 04:23:39 pm
    Hello,

    I have received my DS1052E today from DealExtreme. Looks like no hack for me at the moment. Details of my version below:

    DS1ED125xxxxxx
    Software: 00.02.05.02.00
    DSP: 00.00
    FPGA: 02.00
    HardVersion: 58

    Fingers crossed for the future.

    John.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Lawsen on March 15, 2011, 06:03:24 pm
    That is the same oscilloscope that I have at my room.  The only component shielded, that I see on the board is the input end dual input channels amplifiers.  The class of oscilloscope is less priced like those lower bicycles for us here in the U.S.A.  I never can afford the analog oscilloscopes by Tektronix, when I went to electronics school, before geology school.  I did noticed the DC output on the power supply has a ribbon cable without a choke.  Some power supply outputs have chokes inside computers.  I totally still liked it a lot and it is my only one.  I have no access to universities anymore, that I graduated from them three to four years ago.  I am sure everyone seen Dave Jones's tear down of the Rigol DS1052E.

    EEVblog #37 - Rigol DS1052E Oscilloscope Teardown (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO5iGwHpmHc#)

    The oscilloscope is good enough for my hobby in 7400 TTL and straingages, seismographs.  Here is the complaint about the DC coupling in the square wave output in the DS1052E, but no solutions on the problem with the slight AC component in the square wave form along the flat peak portion.

    RIGOL DS1052E AC DC coupling problem (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D5Hqm83B_A#)

    Lawsen Lew

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: flolic on March 30, 2011, 06:59:45 pm
    Today I noticed interesting thing about bandwidth vs internal attenuator on my DS1102E (hardware modded).
    Internal attenuator switches on at  250mV/div (and greater), you can hear relay click.

    Look at animated gif  ;)


    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: beerhunter on March 30, 2011, 09:36:58 pm


    The oscilloscope is good enough for my hobby in 7400 TTL and straingages, seismographs.  Here is the complaint about the DC coupling in the square wave output in the DS1052E, but no solutions on the problem with the slight AC component in the square wave form along the flat peak portion.


    Hi Lew, I have the Rigol DS1052E up modded to 100 Mhz BW. I just tried your problem on my scope and it behaved as expected. No change from DC to AC coupling. The firmware in my unit is 00.02.04.00.03 HW57.

    Try downmodding and then up modding to this firmware level as this is supposed to be the best with no bugs. Also has the help files working. But before that try and do a "factory" reset via the storage key and load it to factory default settings. Perhaps your machine just needs to be reset.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: flolic on March 31, 2011, 07:54:38 am
    @flolic: what signal were you measuring?

    Fast pulse generator, https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=30.msg3005#msg3005 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=30.msg3005#msg3005)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: tonva on April 01, 2011, 04:53:49 pm
    I have received my DS1052E today from DealExtreme. Looks like no hack for me at the moment. Details of my version below:
    DS1ED125xxxxxx
    Software: 00.02.05.02.00
    DSP: 00.00
    FPGA: 02.00
    HardVersion: 58

    Yeah, the same for me. Seems we have to wait until Rigol guys release new firmware version (something like 00.02.05.03.00 ), as patch for downgrading to old good version 02.02 SP2 can be created only if an update of the current version exists. Hope they will do it soon.

    Anthony
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: A Hellene on April 21, 2011, 08:41:32 am
    News update: A successful attempt to create an update.header file for the unhackable 2.05 SP2 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=553.msg42404#msg42404)!


    -George
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mechatrommer on April 21, 2011, 10:08:04 am
    congratulation! you made it continuing again until we see another 2.06 firmware ;)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: A Hellene on April 21, 2011, 11:16:38 am
    Do not worry, my friend!
    I'll be here, waiting for the next challenge!

    By the way, thank you for your efforts.


    -George



    [EDIT] And, I am sorry I misspelled your previous screen name in my first message at these discussion boards...
    Title: I Need Help
    Post by: flyingfrancisco on May 04, 2011, 01:08:33 am
    Hello everyone
    I just statred +to nod my DS1052eE from version 02.05. SP2 and I have hit a wall. I have installed the 02.02. SP2 but can't connect to the scope with UltraScope. When I try to connect it asks me to choose from  ASRL1-INSTR or ASRL10-INSTR but either one doesn't work. I get the error "Can't Read from Device" and when I click ok I get "Device not found" I have uninstalled ULtrascope that came with cd and uninstalled "Visa462runtime.exe" reinstalled them and get the same errors. I did not get a request to install drivers. What am I doing wrong.
    Thx in advance to everyone

    flyingfrancisco
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mechatrommer on May 04, 2011, 01:40:27 am
    have you tried upgrading to 2.04 firmware?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: flyingfrancisco on May 04, 2011, 02:00:16 am
    Hello Mechatrommer
    I am wondering if since I have gone from version 02.05 SP2 to 02.02 SP2 then perhaps the Ultrascope software that came with version 02.05 SP2 is not compatible with the downgraded version. What are your thoughts and by the way I am a bit limited compared to many of the software experts on this site.
    flyingfrancisco
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Mechatrommer on May 04, 2011, 02:06:45 am
    I am wondering if since I have gone from version 02.05 SP2 to 02.02 SP2 then perhaps the Ultrascope software that came with version 02.05 SP2 is not compatible with the downgraded version. What are your thoughts and by the way...
    i dont know. but thats a possiblity. try older version ultrascope then is its compatible with 2.02, try:
    1) upgrading/downgrading ultrascope
    2) if cant work, change firmware version
    3) do (1) again.
    my 2cnts.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: flyingfrancisco on May 04, 2011, 02:25:49 am
    Thx Mechatrommer
    If I now upgrade to version 02.04 can i then change it to 100mega from that version?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Chet T16 on May 04, 2011, 06:28:35 am
    Make sure you haven't set the pc connection mode to pictbridge, i did that while playing first and then couldn't connect via ultrascope. The scope was actually installing automatically as an imaging device and it was giving the same two options you mentioned in ultrascope.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Chet T16 on May 04, 2011, 08:23:14 am
    Make sure you haven't set the pc connection mode to pictbridge, i did that while playing first and then couldn't connect via ultrascope. The scope was actually installing automatically as an imaging device and it was giving the same two options you mentioned in ultrascope.

    I just checked and the setting is under Utility > IO Setting > USB Device. It should be set to Computer, not PictBridge
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: flyingfrancisco on May 04, 2011, 10:58:50 am
    Hi Chet
    I think I am one step closer because of your help. I had forgotten to mention that when I would plug in the USB wire it would see the scope as a camera. I corrected the Utilities setting to USB Comupter as you mentioneed. Now when I connect to the scope I have 3 options. The first 2 that I mentioned and now a USB followed by some numbers. When I click on that option I do not get an error but nothing appears on the screen of ultrascope. I have removed both Ultrascope and Visa  reinstalled both but nothing changes . Anymore suggestins?
    Thx
    f
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Chet T16 on May 04, 2011, 11:14:12 am
    Try deleting the camera too?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: flyingfrancisco on May 04, 2011, 11:14:49 am
    Hi Chet
    Eureka!
    Thanks for your help. Ultrascope is now working and finally I can continue with the conversion process.  I also apologize to all that I have offended for posting in multiple forums. I am new to online forums and obviously not an expert as most of you appear to be. Thx to all that  replied to my panic state.

    flyingfrancisco
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: flyingfrancisco on May 04, 2011, 12:47:21 pm
    Hi all !
    Another converted DS1053E . Thanks to everyone who has contributed but particularly to George  who stood on the shoulders of giants and was able to keep his balance.  ????????? ????

    flyingfrancisco
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: torch on May 05, 2011, 06:59:47 am
    Which version of Ultrascope finally worked? (00.01.07 or 00.01.08?)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: flyingfrancisco on May 05, 2011, 12:09:35 pm
    It was Chet T16 that came up with the answer to my problem. In Utilities the setting was incorrect "Utility > IO Setting > USB Device. It should be set to Computer, not PictBridge" It was seeing the scope as a camera. I am pretty sure that the version of Ultrascope had no influence finally.
    Regards
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: tonva on May 13, 2011, 08:23:47 pm
    congratulation! you made it continuing again until we see another 2.06 firmware ;)

    I hope the George's hack will work for longer time, as Rigol guys can not do too much with header.
    Expecting they want the old firmware be able to upgrade, the header format will remain unchanged.
    Great work, George!
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: johnmx on May 13, 2011, 11:34:31 pm
    I received my DS1052E this week. I’m amazed with its functionalities for such a cheap scope. The ‘Alternate Trigger’ is a must!! It’s like having two oscilloscopes in one package (with some time limitations of course).
    Very nice!
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: A Hellene on May 14, 2011, 02:15:46 am
    I hope the George's hack will work for longer time, as Rigol guys can not do too much with header.
    Expecting they want the old firmware be able to upgrade, the header format will remain unchanged.
    Great work, George!
    Thank you, tonva!

    I have just updated my post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=553.msg42404#msg42404) with extra information.


    -George
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: krater on June 09, 2011, 02:02:03 am
    hello,

    i wrote a IDA Pro plugin for Blackfin cpu (click (http://codenaschen.de/tichyblog/index.php?action=blog&entry=1_Blackfin+Disassembler+Processor+IDA+Pro+Plugin)). Maybee someone is interested in reverse engineering the rigol scope...


    cheers,
    krater
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: dimlow on July 11, 2011, 09:09:23 am
    It was never confirmed.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: krater on July 13, 2011, 02:55:46 pm
    it uses the zlib, so someone can think there is more open source software used...
    i don't think so, there are no indications thats used linux.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: pen_tium on October 14, 2011, 02:53:52 am
    How can I chang the DS1102E 02.05 SP2 return to DS1052E 02.02 SP2?  :-[
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Hydrawerk on May 26, 2013, 03:29:05 pm
    Why is the trace on the screen yellow while the channel 1 is marked orange??
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Wytnucls on May 26, 2013, 04:01:51 pm
    Because, yellow doesn't stand out very well on beige, unlike the traces on a black screen. Orange does and is close enough to yellow to avoid any confusion. Was that trivial enough?
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Hydrawerk on November 13, 2013, 10:56:07 pm
    I found this DS1102D at school lab. All the small knobs are cracked. The fan is loud, but acceptable. The XY mode works very weird. Worse than that old HP 54600 scope...
    Rigol DS1102D bug in XY mode 01 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzFj93ym48g#)

    The XY mode often gives bad frequency readouts. And it seems to be crippled.
    Rigol DS1102D bug in XY mode 02 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUeP7Z0Lem0#)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Hydrawerk on November 13, 2013, 11:09:12 pm
    The XY behaviour is similar to this rebadged Rigol sold as Agilent DSO1022A.
    Agilent DSO1022A bug in XY mode (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMgZYKQKRNk#)
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: saturation on November 14, 2013, 02:35:11 pm
    See:

    https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/changing-the-rigol-ds1052e-to-ds1102e-using-usb-the-dummy-guide/msg33581/#msg33581 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/changing-the-rigol-ds1052e-to-ds1102e-using-usb-the-dummy-guide/msg33581/#msg33581)

    XY has limits but the video you show isn't a bug, but the result of its slow scan rate and the scale used.

    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: Hydrawerk on November 21, 2013, 09:54:56 am
    Well, that old HP 54600 had no problems with a 100MHz signal in XY mode. Turning the timebase (horizontal) knob has no effect.
    While at that Rigol the XY mode is affected by horizontal scale knob and my the memory length setting... Users know about this issue. But it was new for me.
    Title: Which firmware version changed the waveform format?
    Post by: MartinL on January 20, 2014, 02:20:26 am
    I'm trying to work out which firmware version introduced a protocol change.

    Please see this thread if you can help by checking your own device's response:

    https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000de-which-firmware-version-changed-the-waveform-format/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rigol-ds1000de-which-firmware-version-changed-the-waveform-format/)

    Thanks!
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: canibalimao on January 17, 2016, 01:42:56 pm
    Guys, I'm here with an "existential doubt": is this rigol still a good buy, or it's better to spend 80€ more on the newer DS1054Z? For now, I don't have any ideas of give use to all the 4 channels of the 1054, but I don't know the use I'll give to the scope in the future and I'm afraid of this 80€ saving that could eventually cost more in a few months...


    Just for a final note, I'm about to finish my course in EE this summer.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: saturation on January 19, 2016, 03:02:46 pm
    The Z is better all around bang for buck for new buys.  My 1052e does what I need so no need for another scope, but on passing I notice more QC issues with 1000s after 2011, so the older generation were also built better.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: canibalimao on January 19, 2016, 03:09:36 pm
    Thanks for that. So the Z version is the better choise, despite all the drawbacks and the price difference.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: saturation on January 19, 2016, 03:36:34 pm
    Yes, the Z has bugs as well as production QC issues, and the 1000 series has QC issues but less bugs.  But overall the advantages of the Z series outweigh its faults.  Wherever you are in the world, buy it locally to you, to avoid warranty hassles.

    Thanks for that. So the Z version is the better choise, despite all the drawbacks and the price difference.
    Title: Re: The Rigol DS1052E
    Post by: ivi_yak on December 31, 2017, 02:13:59 am
    hi :), could you share file from Drieg for restore rigol?