Author Topic: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.  (Read 7141 times)

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Online BrianHG

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The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« on: January 07, 2019, 11:28:14 pm »
(Please, no Audiophoolery BS...  I'm only interested in hard true physics and numerical facts...)

I know about the 'Skin Effect' in AC power transmission lines even at 60hz which isn't there when transmitting DC.  I also know the skin effects get worse with higher frequencies.  I was wondering about the extent of the effect with a speaker wire operating at 10Hz to 20KHz.  Would a thick solid core copper wire performs better, or a thick cable constructed of thin stranded copper, or thin isolated solid core strands in parallel bet the best (think of something like a network cable where at each end, all the conductors are twisted together making 1 high current cable).  In my setup, all 3 setups would have the same overall copper thickness as if it were the single solid core creating the same final DC impedance.

Oh, and for those who don't know: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 11:31:16 pm by BrianHG »
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Offline wraper

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2019, 11:32:56 pm »
I would not bother about skin effect. Only tiny part of total power is at high frequencies, and max frequency is not that high anyway. Thus effect is negligent.
 

Online BrianHG

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2019, 11:37:03 pm »
I would not bother about skin effect. Only tiny part of total power is at high frequencies, and max frequency is not that high anyway. Thus effect is negligent.
Understood, however, this is an exercise in a real effect which actually exists and can be measured and what in theory is the best type of wiring for a speaker given that all 3 wires are identically priced.
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Offline wraper

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2019, 11:40:49 pm »
I would not bother about skin effect. Only tiny part of total power is at high frequencies, and max frequency is not that high anyway. Thus effect is negligent.
Understood, however, this is an exercise in a real effect which actually exists and can be measured and what in theory is the best type of wiring for a speaker given that all 3 wires are identically priced.
Wire with separate insulated strands (Litz wire) is the best but total overkill and won't make any real difference. Solid wire is the worst. I would use usual multi strand copper wire. Solid wire should not be used for anything other than permanent installations (like mains wiring in walls) anyway.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 11:52:41 pm by wraper »
 

Offline RandallMcRee

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2019, 11:41:19 pm »
(Please, no Audiophoolery BS...  I'm only interested in hard true physics and numerical facts...)

I know about the 'Skin Effect' ...something like a network cable where at each end, all the conductors are twisted together making 1 high current cable....

Oh, and for those who don't know: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect

Yep, lookup litz wire. It is used at high frequencies for this reason.
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2019, 11:52:15 pm »
Skin depth in copper at 50 Hz is 9,2 mm. At 10kHz is about 0,65 mm...

No need for litz wire (it is used at many MHz), but it illustrates the principle.
 
Simple stranded good quality copper cable is perfect.. Individual strands should be 0,2-0,4 mm.
That will take nicely through audio range and comfortably more with very little frequency influence..
Make sure you have decent quadrature,but there is little to be had over 2,5mm2 for short wires and smaller power..
If wiring is longer and/or higher power, you can go to 4mm2.


 

Online BrianHG

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2019, 12:12:26 am »
I would not bother about skin effect. Only tiny part of total power is at high frequencies, and max frequency is not that high anyway. Thus effect is negligent.
Understood, however, this is an exercise in a real effect which actually exists and can be measured and what in theory is the best type of wiring for a speaker given that all 3 wires are identically priced.
Wire with separate insulated strands (Litz wire) is the best but total overkill and won't make any real difference. Solid wire is the worst. I would use usual multi strand copper wire. Solid wire should not be used for anything other than permanent installations (like mains wiring in walls) anyway.
Thanks.  This is what I figured.
Now, is there a further advantage to having all those strands isolated like in my network cable example, or like a normal twisted together wire?
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Offline shakalnokturn

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2019, 12:27:52 am »
the single solid core creating the same final DC impedance.

Ouch! We must be in the VLF range here...

I actually wanted to do a Litz vs multi-strand comparison, never got round to it in the end so I can't swear it sounds better.

If there is no noticeable benefit on skin effect at audio frequencies, I can only think of the disadvantage of one conductor breaking in the Litz having much more impact on resistance than similar case with multi-strand.
 

Offline helius

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2019, 01:03:54 am »
The one place where Litz wire is used for audio is in turntables' tone arms. Not because of the skin effect, but because it is much more flexible and won't work-harden over time.
 

Offline ajb

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2019, 01:56:22 am »
At 20KHz the skin depth is roughly equal to the radius of 18AWG wire.  Are you planning to drive your tweeters at more than 16ARMS?
 
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Offline Gr8fulFox

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2019, 03:09:30 am »
You don't need to worry about the 'skin effect' with speaker wire. In my experience, the best speaker wire is old vacuum-cleaner cord; it's long, plenty thick for the purpose, and is as simple to obtain as cutting the cord off of a discarded vacuum cleaner someone left on the curb.
If you get confused, JUST LISTEN TO THE MUSIC PLAY!

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Offline Fungus

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2019, 08:17:56 am »
In my experience, the best speaker wire is old vacuum-cleaner cord; it's long, plenty thick for the purpose, and is as simple to obtain as cutting the cord off of a discarded vacuum cleaner someone left on the curb.

And any "golden ears" who claims otherwise should be busy applying for the James Randi million dollar prize instead of posting here.
 
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Offline dzseki

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2019, 09:21:56 am »
One can also buy silver clad copper cables, those usualy come with PTFE jacket. It is a really cheap experiment to compare to similarly sized copper wires, whether skin effect makes different or not.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2019, 09:56:09 am »
One can also buy silver clad copper cables, those usualy come with PTFE jacket. It is a really cheap experiment to compare to similarly sized copper wires, whether skin effect makes different or not.
That won't make any difference with audio, as the copper underneath the silver plate will still carry most of the current, even at the high end of the audio band.
 

Offline dzseki

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2019, 10:52:53 am »
One can also buy silver clad copper cables, those usualy come with PTFE jacket. It is a really cheap experiment to compare to similarly sized copper wires, whether skin effect makes different or not.
That won't make any difference with audio, as the copper underneath the silver plate will still carry most of the current, even at the high end of the audio band.

Just like Litz, I just had an idea for a cheap experiment if someone wants to try it.

I vaguely recall that I saw at some point a "speaker wire" made of flex PCB, where the two conductors were like 2" wide traces, while conductor quadrature were small but the surface was large.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2019, 04:11:27 pm »
One can also buy silver clad copper cables

There's people selling them, sure. Just like everything else the audio world can invent.

Will they make a difference? No.

 

Offline Zero999

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2019, 04:39:10 pm »
One can also buy silver clad copper cables, those usualy come with PTFE jacket. It is a really cheap experiment to compare to similarly sized copper wires, whether skin effect makes different or not.
That won't make any difference with audio, as the copper underneath the silver plate will still carry most of the current, even at the high end of the audio band.

Just like Litz, I just had an idea for a cheap experiment if someone wants to try it.

I vaguely recall that I saw at some point a "speaker wire" made of flex PCB, where the two conductors were like 2" wide traces, while conductor quadrature were small but the surface was large.
Silver plated copper cable will not be cheap, especially if it's marketed for audio use.

Also how does one objectively test it? The listener needs to be unaware of which cable is connected when performing the test, otherwise cognitive bias will creep in: if they expect the silver to sound better for one reason, then they'll believe it.
 

Offline woodchips

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2019, 04:43:51 pm »
As Bob Pease has pointed out on several occasions, the best speaker cable is ribbon cable with alternate cores as signal and ground.

 

Online Kleinstein

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2019, 04:59:42 pm »
The ribbon cable has some positive aspects, possibly even an characteristic impedance that could match the speaker  :popcorn:. However termination at the ends can be troublesome. As the speaker cables are usually short compared to the electrical wavelength no need to worry about impedance. The best point may be one can hide it well under the carpet.

Non isolated litz wires don't help much against skin effect, as the current would still try to stay on the outside. The RF litz has isolated strands and the wires are not just twisted but go inside and out. For audio it does not make a significant difference. It's only a tiny fraction of the still small loss in the cable.

The typical twisted pair cable can be a little on the thin side. Otherwise separated cables in parallel would reduce skin-effect.
 
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Offline wraper

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2019, 05:04:23 pm »
Non isolated litz wires don't help much against skin effect, as the current would still try to stay on the outside. The RF litz has isolated strands and the wires are not just twisted but go inside and out. For audio it does not make a significant difference. It's only a tiny fraction of the still small loss in the cable.
Have some read https://engineering.dartmouth.edu/inductor/papers/stranded.pdf
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2019, 05:16:35 pm »
To get an idea of the possible impact of the skin effect, you can use this: http://www.chemandy.com/calculators/round-wire-ac-resistance-calculator.htm

You get to see that the impact of frequency on the wire resistance in the audio range is pretty negligible, unless you are dealing with VERY long cables (like over severals tens of meters) or very high current (and thus a large diameter wire).

Another factor you could consider is the inductance of the wire. Again to get an idea: http://www.chemandy.com/calculators/round-wire-inductance-calculator.htm
And again, unless you are dealing with very long cables, the impact of the inductance is negligible in the audio range (except maybe if you use *very* low impedance speakers - think of it roughly as a low-pass filter).
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 05:21:35 pm by SiliconWizard »
 

Offline cdev

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2019, 06:20:23 pm »
Flexibility as far as the wire goes, soft copper that's flexible, with good solid terminations, whatever they may be, gets my vote. The less jacket and more wire there is inside the better.

You don't need to worry about the 'skin effect' with speaker wire. In my experience, the best speaker wire is old vacuum-cleaner cord; it's long, plenty thick for the purpose, and is as simple to obtain as cutting the cord off of a discarded vacuum cleaner someone left on the curb.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 06:22:07 pm by cdev »
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Offline Fungus

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2019, 06:33:28 pm »
Silver plated copper cable will not be cheap, especially if it's marketed for audio use.

Yep.

if they expect the silver to sound better for one reason, then they'll believe it.

It actually does sound better. To them.
 
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Offline dzseki

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2019, 07:54:12 pm »
Sorry, I never said there will be difference, it was just a reply to Shakanokturn's post.
And also did not imply the cabke should be "audio grade", in fact I was thinking about (industrial) cables from Belden or Huber+Suhner. A few years ago I  stumbled into a pool of 15m such cable in a local shop for something like 8€, sure enough I bought it. Also I have to admit that I use Silver clad copper-PTFE RG-179 coaxial cables for audio interconnect, but simply because they are the most rugged for the money. Especially compared to the chinese wires those develop green copper oxide just by sitting on the shelf, rendering them unsolderable...


One can also buy silver clad copper cables, those usualy come with PTFE jacket. It is a really cheap experiment to compare to similarly sized copper wires, whether skin effect makes different or not.
That won't make any difference with audio, as the copper underneath the silver plate will still carry most of the current, even at the high end of the audio band.

Just like Litz, I just had an idea for a cheap experiment if someone wants to try it.

I vaguely recall that I saw at some point a "speaker wire" made of flex PCB, where the two conductors were like 2" wide traces, while conductor quadrature were small but the surface was large.
Silver plated copper cable will not be cheap, especially if it's marketed for audio use.

Also how does one objectively test it? The listener needs to be unaware of which cable is connected when performing the test, otherwise cognitive bias will creep in: if they expect the silver to sound better for one reason, then they'll believe it.
 

Offline jmelson

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2019, 08:04:23 pm »
I vaguely recall that I saw at some point a "speaker wire" made of flex PCB, where the two conductors were like 2" wide traces, while conductor quadrature were small but the surface was large.
This stuff was mass produced for power connections to modular workspaces (cubicles) that ran under the carpet.  Nut sure it was 2" wide, but if it can handle 15A outlets, ought to be fine for audio.

Jon
 

Online BrianHG

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2019, 09:05:41 pm »
Especially compared to the chinese wires those develop green copper oxide just by sitting on the shelf, rendering them unsolderable...
Yes, avoiding crap wire is also important.  With such corrosion, your sound will be affected over time as the cable's lowers in impedance and crackles due to copper filaments flaking away.
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Offline Bassman59

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2019, 11:34:30 pm »
Yes, avoiding crap wire is also important.  With such corrosion, your sound will be affected over time as the cable's lowers in impedance and crackles due to copper filaments flaking away.

The corrosion will increase the wire resistance, which is bad, of course.
 

Offline boB

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2019, 12:52:40 am »

I only use powered studio monitors.  No speaker cables to choose from. 

The cable that IS in there is very short so problem solved !

K7IQ
 

Offline dzseki

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2019, 07:19:25 am »

I only use powered studio monitors.  No speaker cables to choose from. 

The cable that IS in there is very short so problem solved !

Solved? Shifted! You have a long, highly capacitive coaxial cable that is not terminated on its characteristic impedance instead  :-DD
 

Offline Gr8fulFox

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2019, 11:11:07 am »

I only use powered studio monitors.

Bah; too small. Bigger is always better. ;D

And yes, in that photo, we're using 12-gauge extension cord that we pulled out of a dumpster. But that thickness is pointless because I had to trim it down so it would fit in the banana plugs.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 02:25:41 pm by Gr8fulFox »
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Offline boB

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2019, 05:41:13 am »

I only use powered studio monitors.

Bah; too small. Bigger is always better. ;D

And yes, in that photo, we're using 12-guage extension cord that we pulled out of a dumpster. But that thickness is pointless because I had to trim it down so it would fit in the banana plugs.

Ewwwww  !  Cerwin Vegas !

Those were neat old speakers.
K7IQ
 
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Offline Gr8fulFox

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2019, 02:03:05 pm »

I only use powered studio monitors.

Bah; too small. Bigger is always better. ;D

And yes, in that photo, we're using 12-guage extension cord that we pulled out of a dumpster. But that thickness is pointless because I had to trim it down so it would fit in the banana plugs.

Ewwwww  !  Cerwin Vegas !

Those were neat old speakers.

Cerwin-Vega is the BEST!


I'm a former cigarette smoker, but I love my Zippo 'windproof' lighter; that being said, when I crank-up "Baby Got Back" on the 'Bleeder, the air pressure from the woofers is enough to snuff-out my Zippo; "WINDPROOF", MY ASS!!
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 02:11:38 pm by Gr8fulFox »
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Online nctnico

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2019, 02:39:17 pm »
I would not bother about skin effect. Only tiny part of total power is at high frequencies, and max frequency is not that high anyway. Thus effect is negligent.
Understood, however, this is an exercise in a real effect which actually exists and can be measured and what in theory is the best type of wiring for a speaker given that all 3 wires are identically priced.
Measured how? In theory the wire with the individually isolated strands will have the lowest AC resistance. In many transformers for higher power DC-DC converters skin effect is a problem as well.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline boB

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2019, 05:50:17 pm »
Skin effect in speaker wires is bullshit.  I defy anyone to be able to tell the difference using some kind of AB/X test other than 50% guessing which cable they are listening to  (for a normal cable run length)

Even at higher frequencies, where skin effect is more prominent, there is less power used in those frequencies and resistance at high audio frequencies is less important.

If you want to reduce skin effect, buy some $3000+ Litz wire speaker cables that are readily available from companies that are all to excited to separate you from your money.

« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 05:54:50 pm by boB »
K7IQ
 

Online BrianHG

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2019, 07:15:30 pm »
Ewwwww  !  Cerwin Vegas !

Those were neat old speakers.

Cerwin-Vega is the BEST!
:-+ Ewwwww  !  Cerwin Vegas !  :-DD
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Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2019, 07:45:52 pm »
I think skin effect is also a bigger issue with high currents and speakers are decently low current so probably not worth accounting for.   Suppose in a huge auditorium situation with many very high powered speakers like 1,000w+ maybe you'd use litz wire, but even then not sure if that's done or not.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2019, 07:52:33 pm »
I think skin effect is also a bigger issue with high currents and speakers are decently low current so probably not worth accounting for.   Suppose in a huge auditorium situation with many very high powered speakers like 1,000w+ maybe you'd use litz wire, but even then not sure if that's done or not.
Of course it's not used. Skin is very thick at audio frequencies. And you would even increase resistance (for the same wire outer diameter) at lower frequencies where most of the power is due to lower conductor density. Not to say litz wire is a pain to terminate.
 
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Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2019, 08:13:17 pm »
I think skin effect is also a bigger issue with high currents and speakers are decently low current so probably not worth accounting for.   Suppose in a huge auditorium situation with many very high powered speakers like 1,000w+ maybe you'd use litz wire, but even then not sure if that's done or not.
Of course it's not used. Skin is very thick at audio frequencies. And you would even increase resistance (for the same wire outer diameter) at lower frequencies where most of the power is due to lower conductor density. Not to say litz wire is a pain to terminate.

Yeah kinda figured, not worth the extra cost either.  Any differences it would even have would probably be outside of the hearing range too.   
 

Offline raptor1956

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2019, 08:49:34 pm »
We used Litz wire to power the vehicles in the AMHS (Automated Material Handling System) used in the semiconductor industry to transport FOUPS with wafers around the FAB.  These wires were run as a loop inside the track and the vehicles had "cores" to pickup the power from the Litz wire.  Essentially the core is the secondary of a transformer and the two parallel Litz wires serve as the primary.  But, because there are only two wires and cores are limited to about 15cm in length you need to do something to improve the power transfer as 50Hz or 60Hz just won't do.  So, the power supply, sometimes called an SCPS (Super Clean Power Supply), would provide about 300V AC power at about 9KHz and around 8A.  By boosting the frequency to 9KHz the lines cut quicker through the core permitting greater power transfer and greater efficiency.  Each loop could power about 14 vehicles each weighing about 100kg or more.  So, in this application, we used Litz wire because of the higher frequency (9KHz).

Once installed the adjustment/tuning involved adjusting the inductance and capacitance within the SCPS to achieve the most efficient power circuit possible.  It could take a few minutes to several hours to get the line balanced properly.  The engineers would attempt to use LCR meters to calculate what the appropriate inductance and capacitance should be, but the skilled techs could tune it 10X faster using trial and error.  Funny how that works sometimes. 


Brian
« Last Edit: January 16, 2019, 10:48:36 pm by raptor1956 »
 
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Offline Bassman59

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2019, 10:41:43 pm »
I think skin effect is also a bigger issue with high currents and speakers are decently low current so probably not worth accounting for.   Suppose in a huge auditorium situation with many very high powered speakers like 1,000w+ maybe you'd use litz wire, but even then not sure if that's done or not.
No way. Back when amplifiers were in side-stage racks and separate from speaker cabinets, we used standard SOJ-type mains-power cordage, 12 AWG or thicker, for speaker cable runs. That cable is flexible, strong and has insulation good enough so that it could sit in puddles and not affect the system. Thick stranded cable was important for subwoofers, where you need low I2R losses so your amp damping factor didn't go to hell and also so the power went to the drivers and not to heat in the cable. And remember that the frequency response of subs doesn't go up past 80 Hz or so, so do the math and work out skin depth for that frequency.

Now, of course, the amplifiers are built into the speaker cabinets, as they should be.
 
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Offline raptor1956

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2019, 10:55:52 pm »
I think skin effect is also a bigger issue with high currents and speakers are decently low current so probably not worth accounting for.   Suppose in a huge auditorium situation with many very high powered speakers like 1,000w+ maybe you'd use litz wire, but even then not sure if that's done or not.
No way. Back when amplifiers were in side-stage racks and separate from speaker cabinets, we used standard SOJ-type mains-power cordage, 12 AWG or thicker, for speaker cable runs. That cable is flexible, strong and has insulation good enough so that it could sit in puddles and not affect the system. Thick stranded cable was important for subwoofers, where you need low I2R losses so your amp damping factor didn't go to hell and also so the power went to the drivers and not to heat in the cable. And remember that the frequency response of subs doesn't go up past 80 Hz or so, so do the math and work out skin depth for that frequency.

Now, of course, the amplifiers are built into the speaker cabinets, as they should be.


Most speakers are still powered by external amps with the exception of bass/woofers that have long used internal amps.  I do think that going forward it makes a lot of sense to include the proper matched amps inside all speakers and then the signal can be sent wirelessly or via a lan cable.  All equalization and cross-over work should be done within the speaker digitally and then the output sent to the amps for each of the driver circuits -- in a 3-way speaker there would then be 3 amps exactly matched to the driver(s) it drives.  In addition to the digital audio signal sent to the speakers there should also be timing information to account for speaker placement and associated delays.  A receiver in such a system would have no amplification function but instead would serve as a source switch and a controlling element that tells each speaker what there power output should be and there respective delay.


Brian
 
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Offline helius

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2019, 01:08:55 am »
When you say "delay" are you speaking of electrical delay or acoustic delay?
In any reasonable size room electrical delay is insignificant.
Acoustic delay is an intended part of stereo reproduction. The sound reaching the ears at different times is what causes it to localize in space. The distinction between phase and group delay is also very important for stereo.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2019, 01:34:07 am »
Having an active speaker especially with some feedback mechanism to cancel out distortion works great, but I wouldn't personally want one to use a LAN for multichannel audio because of latency issues, unless it has some synchronous protocol. (Likely some do, I am just not familiar with them!)

Basically, digital audio would likely be fine with any format meant for it.

But a LAN protocol to replace multiple speaker lines doesn't seem like a good choice, unless all channels are sent together, reason being, some protocols have overhead while they wait until enough data needs to be sent, if that delay was asymmetrical, not good.. channels might get out of sync unless the delay was short enough to not be perceptible. The same issues likely apply to wireless (LAN?) (Bluetooth) Fine if they are all sent and received together, likely would break if stereo pairs in particular were sent separately because the latency might well be different. I would not be surprised if the effect was an echo or similar.


Most speakers are still powered by external amps with the exception of bass/woofers that have long used internal amps.  I do think that going forward it makes a lot of sense to include the proper matched amps inside all speakers and then the signal can be sent wirelessly or via a lan cable.  All equalization and cross-over work should be done within the speaker digitally and then the output sent to the amps for each of the driver circuits -- in a 3-way speaker there would then be 3 amps exactly matched to the driver(s) it drives.  In addition to the digital audio signal sent to the speakers there should also be timing information to account for speaker placement and associated delays.  A receiver in such a system would have no amplification function but instead would serve as a source switch and a controlling element that tells each speaker what there power output should be and there respective delay.


Brian
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2019, 03:50:15 pm »
Big stage shows use line arrays, usually just one set to each side of the stage, but occasionally you see a set of delay towers as well if the venue is deep enough.  You don't need complicated controllers built into every cabinet to deal with that effectively.  Delays and EQs can be set in the console, which is all digital.  Anyway modern amps can fit 10kW of amplification plus DSP plus network control into 2RU, and it just doesn't make sense to spread 6RU of equipment out into 16 cabinets of a reasonably sized array.  Plus you'd have to run power+signal to every single cabinet, and you'd have three times as many devices to manage and configure, and once the array is hoisted you can't get to the cabinets, so what would you do if one of the fancy in-cab controllers goes insane ten minutes before doors? 

And yes, audio over IP is already standard.  Massive multi-channel snakes with dozens of copper lines are gone, you plug your mixing console into the show network, and it talks DANTE to your stage boxes through a fiber backbone.  A Cisco cert is a legitimately marketable qualification for the modern stagehand (although now there are several lines of networking infrastructure gear purpose-built for production usage, so standard enterprise networking gear is becoming less common).
 
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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2019, 07:14:26 pm »
as current goes up the depth decreases. electrons run at the surface. so a broad flat wire is better as there is more 'surface'. a broad copper foil would work best.

bob pease did the experiment once. he grabbed two sections of 40 wire ribbon cable. worked liek a champ !
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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #45 on: January 17, 2019, 07:43:17 pm »
as current goes up the depth decreases. electrons run at the surface. so a broad flat wire is better as there is more 'surface'. a broad copper foil would work best.

bob pease did the experiment once. he grabbed two sections of 40 wire ribbon cable. worked liek a champ !
Thanks for the search idea:
Google Images of flat+speaker+wire
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Offline dzseki

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #46 on: January 17, 2019, 08:28:33 pm »
Although this will yield a highly capacitive cable that may cause trouble for certain amplifiers.
as current goes up the depth decreases. electrons run at the surface. so a broad flat wire is better as there is more 'surface'. a broad copper foil would work best.

bob pease did the experiment once. he grabbed two sections of 40 wire ribbon cable. worked liek a champ !
 

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #47 on: January 17, 2019, 08:57:45 pm »
Although this will yield a highly capacitive cable that may cause trouble for certain amplifiers.
as current goes up the depth decreases. electrons run at the surface. so a broad flat wire is better as there is more 'surface'. a broad copper foil would work best.

bob pease did the experiment once. he grabbed two sections of 40 wire ribbon cable. worked liek a champ !

he used one 40 wire ribbon for the + , one 40 wire ribbon for the -

and even then. that bit of pf for a high power amp is peanuts. there's more capacitance in the crossover network than in the cable...
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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #48 on: January 17, 2019, 11:07:30 pm »
Having an active speaker especially with some feedback mechanism to cancel out distortion works great, but I wouldn't personally want one to use a LAN for multichannel audio because of latency issues, unless it has some synchronous protocol. (Likely some do, I am just not familiar with them!)

Basically, digital audio would likely be fine with any format meant for it.

But a LAN protocol to replace multiple speaker lines doesn't seem like a good choice, unless all channels are sent together, reason being, some protocols have overhead while they wait until enough data needs to be sent, if that delay was asymmetrical, not good.. channels might get out of sync unless the delay was short enough to not be perceptible. The same issues likely apply to wireless (LAN?) (Bluetooth) Fine if they are all sent and received together, likely would break if stereo pairs in particular were sent separately because the latency might well be different. I would not be surprised if the effect was an echo or similar.


Most speakers are still powered by external amps with the exception of bass/woofers that have long used internal amps.  I do think that going forward it makes a lot of sense to include the proper matched amps inside all speakers and then the signal can be sent wirelessly or via a lan cable.  All equalization and cross-over work should be done within the speaker digitally and then the output sent to the amps for each of the driver circuits -- in a 3-way speaker there would then be 3 amps exactly matched to the driver(s) it drives.  In addition to the digital audio signal sent to the speakers there should also be timing information to account for speaker placement and associated delays.  A receiver in such a system would have no amplification function but instead would serve as a source switch and a controlling element that tells each speaker what there power output should be and there respective delay.


Brian

Maybe not the right term, by LAN I really meant digital audio.  OTH, with a clock signal for synchronization you can get around latency.


Brian
 

Offline LapTop006

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2019, 10:59:09 am »
... A Cisco cert is a legitimately marketable qualification for the modern stagehand (although now there are several lines of networking infrastructure gear purpose-built for production usage, so standard enterprise networking gear is becoming less common).

Which of course really just means that connectors aside (Neutrik FibreConn & EtherConn are wonderful) they're largely terrible crap, luckily given the trivial data rates involved that's not a problem.
 

Offline ajb

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #50 on: January 18, 2019, 06:55:36 pm »
... A Cisco cert is a legitimately marketable qualification for the modern stagehand (although now there are several lines of networking infrastructure gear purpose-built for production usage, so standard enterprise networking gear is becoming less common).

Which of course really just means that connectors aside (Neutrik FibreConn & EtherConn are wonderful) they're largely terrible crap, luckily given the trivial data rates involved that's not a problem.

Getting pretty far off topic, but is that based on direct experience?  I've never personally used any of it, but as far as I know Luminex, Pathport, and ProPlex gear is all pretty well regarded within their application areas.  Some of the ProPlex stuff looks very much like an off-the-shelf managed switch stuffed into a 2RU case and patched out to EtherCON, although I don't know if it might be running custom software. 

Data rates on show networks are trivial when sending a handful of DMX universes and audio channels, but can get pretty serious when multiple control desks and network processors are required to run a distributed show file, or when you have multiple video streams.
 

Offline LapTop006

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #51 on: January 19, 2019, 04:26:55 am »
... A Cisco cert is a legitimately marketable qualification for the modern stagehand (although now there are several lines of networking infrastructure gear purpose-built for production usage, so standard enterprise networking gear is becoming less common).

Which of course really just means that connectors aside (Neutrik FibreConn & EtherConn are wonderful) they're largely terrible crap, luckily given the trivial data rates involved that's not a problem.

Getting pretty far off topic, but is that based on direct experience?  I've never personally used any of it, but as far as I know Luminex, Pathport, and ProPlex gear is all pretty well regarded within their application areas.  Some of the ProPlex stuff looks very much like an off-the-shelf managed switch stuffed into a 2RU case and patched out to EtherCON, although I don't know if it might be running custom software. 

Data rates on show networks are trivial when sending a handful of DMX universes and audio channels, but can get pretty serious when multiple control desks and network processors are required to run a distributed show file, or when you have multiple video streams.

Video brings it up, and with minimal compressions does easily get into the tens of gigabits.

Context is I (until late last year) ran large scale networks at Google, where as well as the stuff we ran, I'd also see what was being installed for AV purposes.

They likely are all running the same chips (mostly from Broadcom), and probably even the same base SDK, so yes, they're unlikely to be too terrible, however they're almost certainly lacking in the telemetry department making it harder to debug when things do go wrong (and given many of these protocols use multicast, things *will* go wrong).
 
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Offline calexanian

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #52 on: January 21, 2019, 10:16:57 pm »
Also don't forget high the X of L of the driver goes sky high as the frequency gets up high enough to matter reducing the drive impedance requirements, so that's working in your favor.
Charles Alexanian
Alex-Tronix Control Systems
 

Offline adauphin

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #53 on: February 01, 2019, 01:49:54 pm »
OP, are you looking to achieve improved SQ by changing speaker wires? I'm only assuming this because you are questioning the skin effect.

If this is the case, granted it will be system dependent and how revealing your system is.

I can also attest to the fact, that Litz wire noticeably improved my system by changing the factory stranded 16 ga copper internal wire to 15.5 ga Cardas Litz wire. The difference was noticeable enough you couldn't listen to both speakers at the same time, with one upgraded and then other stock....the tonal change was enough that the synergy was way off...needless to say the Litz was the clear winner.

Now this was an internal re-wire, not amp to speakers. I wont turn this into a big cable debate since that's what your request was.

Litz wire takes more time to terminate using a solder pot, but it's very good wire for audio.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #54 on: February 01, 2019, 04:35:33 pm »
I can also attest to the fact, that Litz wire noticeably improved my system by changing the factory stranded 16 ga copper internal wire to 15.5 ga Cardas Litz wire. The difference was noticeable enough you couldn't listen to both speakers at the same time, with one upgraded and then other stock....the tonal change was enough that the synergy was way off...needless to say the Litz was the clear winner.
In call that bullshit. Unless you've done blind test, it could be just psychological perception. As of 'synergy' which sounds just like BS audiophools like to talk, very likely you miswired one of the speakers and it was working in opposite direction to another speaker.
 

Offline adauphin

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #55 on: February 01, 2019, 08:41:50 pm »
I can also attest to the fact, that Litz wire noticeably improved my system by changing the factory stranded 16 ga copper internal wire to 15.5 ga Cardas Litz wire. The difference was noticeable enough you couldn't listen to both speakers at the same time, with one upgraded and then other stock....the tonal change was enough that the synergy was way off...needless to say the Litz was the clear winner.
In call that bullshit. Unless you've done blind test, it could be just psychological perception. As of 'synergy' which sounds just like BS audiophools like to talk, very likely you miswired one of the speakers and it was working in opposite direction to another speaker.

Speakers were wired perfectly.

When I say unlistenable, I'm referring to the fact they were different enough that you could obviously tell a difference.

There wasn't a wire disconnected and there wasn't any amount of faulty connection points. I have gone through the speakers quite a few times performing mild upgrades of mechanical components like using metal female threads instead of just the factory wood screws, replaced factory  binding posts, replaced the caps, resistors etc.

I've had these speakers for a few years, I do take note to any changes good or bad regarding source material, amps etc.

I'm fine with the fact that we can agree to disagree, but its not placebo effect. Calling BS is kinda harsh, I do like experimenting, I do like taking notes, sometimes changing a component doesn't change much if anything, but I'm not lying to you that's for sure.  :-+

One thing I did do, was take a video of the gear using a slightly decent microphone...but definitely not the best..lol, with my Sony camcorder. (Edited to add that the microphone was a Sony external stereo microphone) I took the video of the stock internal wiring and then once I changed to the Litz.

It's something I do if I make any big changes. The only difference was the wires, no camera change, no change in volume, everything was kept the same for the test.

Please understand that the mic I used at the time has been since upgraded, but for these two recordings, nothing was changed with the recording gear. it's not a clear representation of what it sounds like, obviously your ears hear different than a microphone..sounds much better in person. There's some slight hiss from the gain, some added sibilance, but the settings remained the same.

What I ask is that you listen with some good headphones, or on a good set of gear, listen to the whole song and get a good memory of the tone. Then listen to the second recording and you will "possibly" hear that it's smoother and easier to listen to....somewhat less edgy, more life-like tones.

Stock internal chassis wire.

https://youtu.be/SFlI8EvuASI


Litz internal wire.

https://youtu.be/YuA8U4C1oUA
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 09:47:20 pm by adauphin »
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #56 on: February 01, 2019, 10:12:42 pm »
the synergy was way off

I think that says it all right there.   :-DD
 

Offline adauphin

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #57 on: February 01, 2019, 10:24:53 pm »
the synergy was way off

I think that says it all right there.   :-DD

Not sure what you're getting at. Two speakers with different tonal qualities definitely won't blend well.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #58 on: February 01, 2019, 10:35:46 pm »
I'm referring to your nebulous language.

If it's not a placebo, then perhaps you can back it up with some numbers.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 10:38:38 pm by timelessbeing »
 
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Offline adauphin

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #59 on: February 01, 2019, 10:42:15 pm »
I'm referring to your nebulous language.

Ok...well, I suppose I could have described it slightly better.

I was basically referring to the whole is greater than the sum of the parts...in other words....synergy.  So both speakers together tend to disappear slightly, the vocals are portrayed in the center.

When I tested the new wire with the stock wire, that "synergy" was compromised..or the whole listening experience was comprised.

One speaker with a perceived higher sound quality didn't blend well with a speaker that was lesser in sound quality.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 10:45:16 pm by adauphin »
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #60 on: February 01, 2019, 10:49:56 pm »
higher sound quality
Still nebulous. Not a blind test so it doesn't exclude placebo effect.

Actually it doesn't even have to be placebo effect since you didn't isolate all the variables.

Do you at least have some spectral measurements?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 10:51:44 pm by timelessbeing »
 
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Offline adauphin

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #61 on: February 01, 2019, 11:00:29 pm »
I'm referring to your nebulous language.

If it's not a placebo, then perhaps you can back it up with some numbers.

Did you listen to the video clips? It's not so much a numbers game. Are there numerical differences? Sure. How those numerical differences coincide with good or bad sound quality will rest in the opinion of the listener.

There will always be a cable debate. There will always be people who aren't open for the possibility of a  improvement. There will always be people who just simply don't believe in any possible differences.

I don't want to get into a cable debate, I've been into audio most of my life, and that surely doesn't make me an expert.

But I will say that for me, and to give some type of evidence  that a tonal change is contributed to a difference of wire and/or construction of wire, that there was a noticeable change (for the better) in sound quality from thin stranded copper to a high quality litz wire that has supposedly also has a smoother surface as well.

Was it the copper wire, or how the wire is constructed? That part I'm not trying to debate. Just basically backing up the fact that cables can make a difference, and other peoples opinions are welcome.

But others blatantly calling it BS to me is kinda calling other people out for not hearing any differences.


 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #62 on: February 01, 2019, 11:14:09 pm »
The video clips don't prove anything.

Are there numerical differences? Sure.
Where?

But I will say that for me ... there was a noticeable change (for the better) in sound quality from thin stranded copper to a high quality litz wire
If it sounds better to YOU then that's fine. But don't make generalizations that "Litz wire is good for audio" for everyone. The rest of us will enjoy our music without the expensive unicorn wire.

to give some type of evidence  that a tonal change
That's not "evidence". That's just your subjective experience.

high quality litz wire that has supposedly also has a smoother surface as well.
oh man  :-DD


But others blatantly calling it BS to me is kinda calling other people out for not hearing any differences.
I truly believe that you heard a difference. That fact doesn't exclude that it's BS.
 
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Offline adauphin

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #63 on: February 01, 2019, 11:21:43 pm »
higher sound quality
Still nebulous. Not a blind test so it doesn't exclude placebo effect.

Actually it doesn't even have to be placebo effect since you didn't isolate all the variables.

Do you at least have some spectral measurements?

At this moment, the only difference in the two clips was the wire used.

 While it wasn't a complete blind test, once I finished one speaker I listened to it and I was quite surprised. I called my son into the room, had him sit next to me and I said "Hey I want you to listen to this speaker and then to the other speaker and I want you to tell me if you hear a difference"

 I played a mono track in the left speaker and the same mono track in the right speaker, he kind of smiled and pointed to the rewired speaker and said ..yeah that one sounds better.

 In general, if capacitors and resistors of the same value can sound different, why does it have to stop at a copper wire? Why do copper wires not make a difference?
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #64 on: February 01, 2019, 11:30:58 pm »
he kind of smiled and pointed to the rewired speaker and said ..yeah that one sounds better.

Fantastic. A sample size of two. It isn't statistically more significant than random chance.

I'm just going to spitball here just to illustrate one of the hundreds of ways that your test is flawed: Did you place the speakers in the exact same location?


if capacitors and resistors of the same value can sound different
I would argue that you would have trouble distinguishing the difference, but nonetheless a capacitor has frequency dependent response curve. A piece of wire doesn't (at audio frequencies). I guess you ignored that part at the beginning of the thread.

Why do copper wires not make a difference?
To understand, you can start by reading the article on skin effect that was provided to you.

« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 11:33:18 pm by timelessbeing »
 
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Offline adauphin

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #65 on: February 01, 2019, 11:51:41 pm »
 For the record, I'm keeping this a friendly debate.

We were obviously replying at the same time.

I truly believe that you heard a difference. That fact doesn't exclude that it's BS.

Then which part is BS?

 The fact that I didn't hear a difference, or that different types of copper wires between two points, including how they are constructed inside an outer covering, can have an audible difference in some cases?

 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #66 on: February 01, 2019, 11:55:29 pm »
The latter.

Since you have no measurable proof, there is nothing to debate.
 
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Offline adauphin

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #67 on: February 02, 2019, 12:07:05 am »
The latter.

Since you have no measurable proof, there is nothing to debate.

Are you reading my replies? The difference includes the construction of the wire. A numerical difference, perhaps viewed on a scope, may or may not result in improved SQ.

I can see if I can get you a FFT of two wires, whether or not that data coincides with improved sound quality is in the ears of the listener.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #68 on: February 02, 2019, 12:19:36 am »
Believe it or not SQ can be measured and quantified. That's what figures like THD are for, and frequency response charts.

Listener's ears are connected to a that large mysterious blob we call a brain, and we don't fully understand how it generates reality.

Graphing the FFT would be a good start.
 
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Offline adauphin

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #69 on: February 02, 2019, 03:13:37 am »
Believe it or not SQ can be measured and quantified. That's what figures like THD are for, and frequency response charts.

Indeed, I'm aware of that.

Hypothetically speaking, if a signal through lampcord showed higher THD than a Litz wire, wouldn't that still be BS?   ;D
Graphing the FFT would be a good start.

I can surely give it a try.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #70 on: February 02, 2019, 03:50:47 am »
Hypothetically speaking, if a signal through lampcord showed higher THD than a Litz wire, wouldn't that still be BS?   ;D
Would what be BS?

whether or not that data coincides with improved sound quality is in the ears of the listener.
I think you mean BETWEEN the ears of the listener.
 
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #71 on: February 02, 2019, 05:55:58 am »
Believe it or not SQ can be measured and quantified. That's what figures like THD are for, and frequency response charts.

Indeed, I'm aware of that.

Hypothetically speaking, if a signal through lampcord showed higher THD than a Litz wire, wouldn't that still be BS?   ;D
Graphing the FFT would be a good start.

I can surely give it a try.

It could mean that the frequency response of the lamp cord was better, showing up more THD in the source.
Back in the day, when early enthusiasts were trying to promote wide bandwidth "HI FI" audio, they met resistance from people who "liked the sound" of equipment with limited frequency response.

Investigation showed that wide band equipment made higher frequency harmonic distortion audible, whereas limited bandwidth equipment attenuated such distortion, making the sound "more pleasant".

The pioneers of HIFI "were smarter than the average bear", so, at considerable expense they set up a listening environment with a chamber orchestra playing live behind a screen.
They also designed an "acoustic filter" with a similar response to that of popular home "radio grams".

First the orchestra played without a filter, then it was added.
There were several iterations of this, but the end result is the audience always preferred the full bandwidth signal, when there was no distortion in either option.

In the days when I used to do tests upon AM Broadcast transmitters, we had one unit which was quite marginal in frequency response.
Notably, it always gave better THD figures for the higher frequency audio test frequencies than the better transmitters did.
 

Offline Gary.M

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #72 on: February 02, 2019, 07:13:29 am »
Here's one to set you all off. I was sitting in a store in September last year listening to music on a system. Someone interrupted things to swap the standard issue mains cord for some expensive audio foolery one, to see if he could hear a difference. I wouldn't have believed it but damn the difference was significant. Don't ask me to quantify it but it did sound more like real music.

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Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #73 on: February 02, 2019, 07:26:48 am »
I guess it fooled you.
 

Offline adauphin

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #74 on: February 03, 2019, 04:03:56 am »
Someone interrupted things to swap the standard issue mains cord for some expensive audio foolery one, to see if he could hear a difference. I wouldn't have believed it but damn the difference was significant. Don't ask me to quantify it but it did sound more like real music.

It's when you hear it on a revealing system its definitely an attention getter.

When I started upgrading the power cords, I didnt hear too much with one component. But for a trial about a year ago, I replaced 3 of my upgraded cords with the stock cords and taking all of them back to stock is when the music went to being less dynamic and slightly tinny.

It's not the length of romex before the outlet, it's more that the power cord is the first 3 to 6 feet from the component..
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #75 on: February 03, 2019, 04:14:41 am »
I have a bridge to sell you.
 
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Offline ajb

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #76 on: February 03, 2019, 05:25:35 am »
Did you listen to the video clips?

Okay, so. . . you're asking us to listen to a pair of recordings you made, with an unspecified microphone and recording system, which you processed into an unspecified format, and then uploaded it to youtube, where it was compressed into some sort of (lossy?) format, and then played back on our systems, most of which, statistically, are going to be the cheapest internal audio DACs the PC motherboard designers could come up with, feeding whatever speakers or headphones we have--statistically, again, not likely to be anything "audiophile" grade. . .

. . . and you want to know if we heard a difference caused by a slightly fancier arrangement of copper strands in a couple of feet of your speaker wiring.
 
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Offline Gary.M

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #77 on: February 03, 2019, 07:14:51 am »
I guess it fooled you.
Hahahaha. You are a funny person.

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Offline Gary.M

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #78 on: February 03, 2019, 07:16:09 am »
I have a bridge to sell you.
You are a great contributor. Trolls always add value.

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Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #79 on: February 03, 2019, 07:33:44 am »
Awww... not funny anymore? :-// I must have hit a sore spot.

Yes, I'm a troll for trying to keep people from pissing away their money.  :palm:

Fine don't listen to logic and reason. Fill your boots with magical power cables.
 
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Online BravoV

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #80 on: February 03, 2019, 08:06:06 am »
Just a gentle warning, certain "type" of audio people just don't fit in here at this forum. There is a big mobs that I guess is patiently waiting to jump in here aiding timelessbeing, just search for word "audiophile" in this forum and watch the mobs reactions  >:D, yes, I'm part of the mobs.
 
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Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #81 on: February 03, 2019, 09:25:31 am »
No thanks.  :)  I'm not interested in "aid", mobs or drama. Things are pretty civil so far (except the name calling). There has been a little bit of productive discussion, and maybe even a tiny bit of open mindedness. Escalation will only take things backwards.

Declaring people as a "type" is pretty insulting. The super-subtle "we don't take kindly to your folk around here" talk sounds like it's taken straight out of a scene of "Deliverance". Intimidation is a sad resort for people who have nothing intelligent to say.  :)

Poking fun on the other hand is totally fair game. In good humour of course. (and ideally tasteful and funny).

This is a science-centric forum so hopefully everybody comes expecting grown-up academic discussion. I think it's a big shame every time an opportunity for somebody to learn something is missed.
 
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Offline wraper

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #82 on: February 03, 2019, 01:48:21 pm »
Here's one to set you all off. I was sitting in a store in September last year listening to music on a system. Someone interrupted things to swap the standard issue mains cord for some expensive audio foolery one, to see if he could hear a difference. I wouldn't have believed it but damn the difference was significant. Don't ask me to quantify it but it did sound more like real music.

Sent from my MI 8 using Tapatalk
Adding a bit of volume will make it sound 'better', that's how those tricks are often done. Human echoic memory is only 3-4 seconds. What happens after that is hard to compare if difference is small because you simply don't really remember what was before.
 
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Offline adauphin

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #83 on: February 03, 2019, 01:55:38 pm »
I agree it's pretty civil, but what gets me is the fact there are people that state the fact upgrading cables is BS, or it makes no difference, or people claiming to have the "golden ear"

Should it be fact that there is no discernable difference in quality? Who gets to make that claim?

The OP asked about skin effect and also asked about the best given a mutual price point.

I'm adding that if the OP wanted to go with Litz...for whatever reason, there is some testament, at least from me, that in my certain application, there was an improvement.

Whether that's small or large, it opens the door for criticism. I'm not someone that claims that all the higher gear is better, just claiming that I have used Litz in an audio application and it benefited my system.

Litz wire I used was less than $2 per foot, not terribly expensive.

Again, its system dependent.

 

Offline Gary.M

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #84 on: February 03, 2019, 09:31:01 pm »


Adding a bit of volume will make it sound 'better', that's how those tricks are often done. Human echoic memory is only 3-4 seconds. What happens after that is hard to compare if difference is small because you simply don't really remember what was before.

Yes, volume level will affect everything if it is changed. In the case I observed the only thing that was done was to switch off the amp, change the cord, and switch on again. The change in sound was not subtle and I have no explanation for it.

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Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #85 on: February 03, 2019, 10:13:01 pm »
what gets me is the fact there are people that state the fact upgrading cables is BS, or it makes no difference
If those people back up their claim with evidence, what's wrong with calling something what it is?

It's no secret that there are people out there who knowingly sell false promises to people who don't know any better, in order to turn a profit. Surely you're not that naive.

Should it be fact that there is no discernable difference in quality?
Yes. We can measure sound and therefore be able to say that there is no difference.

Who gets to make that claim?

The theory stands up to the most scrutiny, and generates reproducible data that supports the theory is the correct one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking

there is some testament, at least from me
Your testament was flawed. We already provided you with two examples of how.

Again, its system dependent.
If the phenomenon you describe only manifests itself in your living room, then what good is it to us?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 10:16:47 pm by timelessbeing »
 
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Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #86 on: February 03, 2019, 10:42:41 pm »
There is a thing called placebo effect. It's well studied and understood. The awareness of having the Litz wire makes you actually hear a difference. And I don't mean you imagine it. They can stick you in an MRI machine and measure your brain signals, and it would show that you actually heard the music differently. 90% of "hearing" (vision too) happens in your brain, not your ears. An audiologist explained this to me once (and I have an interesting story about it if you want to hear it).

And there's nothing wrong with that. Since using that cable truly does make the music sound better to you, then you're kind of right. The only problem with that, is that it's not consistent since it only works for you. It might not work the same way for the next guy. The result cannot be guaranteed by the seller, and therein lies the fraud. He will do an excellent job of convincing you that the cable works. And in fact, at that point, he is already starting to shape your neural pathways so that you do hear that difference.

This is where the ethics get really grey. It's not really the object that is making the sound better. It is your perception of that object. And people will pay thousands of dollars for that perception. It's their money so I don't care, but the remarkable thing is that you can produce that same psychological effect with anything. You're better off buying a magic rock for $1. As long as I can convince you that placing that magical rock in the center of your living room will absorb harmonic energies in the inaudible spectrum, and re-radiate them in tune with your music, thereby adding "thereness" ... if I make you truly believe it, then it will actually sound better to you. For a lot less money. It's a lot easier to sell cable elevators and directional cables to people with a weak scientific background, because logic doesn't get into the way.

The really fascinating thing about placebos, is that even the person knows it's a placebo, it still works to some degree! Even if I tell you that a pain medication is a just a sugar pill, the pain in your knee will still go away! Unfortunately, it works in reverse too. The so called "nocebo". If I tell you that the sugar pill will cause nausea, it probably will. I foresee that in the future, we will use more psychogenics in medecine.

 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #87 on: February 03, 2019, 11:06:23 pm »
This effect also seems relevant to the "golden ears"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
"The cognitive bias of illusory superiority comes from the inability of low-ability people to recognize their lack of ability."

« Last Edit: February 03, 2019, 11:10:54 pm by timelessbeing »
 

Offline Gary.M

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #88 on: February 04, 2019, 12:24:00 am »
This effect also seems relevant to the "golden ears"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
"The cognitive bias of illusory superiority comes from the inability of low-ability people to recognize their lack of ability."


Most of the consumers of audio equipment are avid music lovers, with large music collections, and spend a lot of their spare time listening to and enjoying music. They also tend to be regularly exposed to live music, which is "the Reference". Reproduction in the home is an attempt to recreate that live experience, and is always doomed. But these enthusiasts do know what real music sounds like, and any improvements that work for them, are valid within the context of their pastime. I've heard things other than the power cord that do seem to make a difference, but no one knows why. The whole field is dealing with an interface between technology and physiology, with a subjective experience as the end result. Very hard to pin down scientifically.

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Offline boB

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #89 on: February 04, 2019, 12:30:26 am »
Where did you find that nice graph of ability to recognize their lack of ability ?

I don't appear to have the ability to find it although I have the ability to know that I don't have the ability...



K7IQ
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #90 on: February 04, 2019, 12:31:34 am »
The whole field is dealing with an interface between technology and physiology ...
... and psychology.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #91 on: February 04, 2019, 12:35:22 am »
Where did you find that nice graph of ability to recognize their lack of ability ?

I don't appear to have the ability to find it although I have the ability to know that I don't have the ability...

Hehe. Don't take the graph too seriously. It was made to illustrate a concept. Obviously you can't quantify ability and perception. However, it is based on experiment survey results.

 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #92 on: February 04, 2019, 01:02:03 am »
these enthusiasts do know what real music sounds like, and any improvements that work for them, are valid within the context of their pastime.
Sure. If it doesn't hurt anybody, do whatever makes you happy

But consider this: The more you understand about how something works, the less valid and meaningful these perceived improvements become... the more immune you are to being bamboozled ... the more money you save... the more you are able to make informed decisions, and focus on things that make real measurable improvements. Then again, maybe to some people the perception is more important than reality.

I think ego plays a lot into audiophoolery. As you say, many people are really enthusiastic about music. It's a hobby that is easily accessible and doesn't require skills or education. They lack the technical understanding of physics, but they need to have that guru status. So their brain just starts coming up with things. They need to hear things that you don't, and perceive things that are "beyond science". We all crave recognition to some degree.
 

Offline Gary.M

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #93 on: February 04, 2019, 01:11:26 am »
I think ego plays a lot into audiophoolery. As you say, many people are really enthusiastic about music. It's a hobby that is easily accessible and doesn't require skills or education. They lack the technical understanding of physics, but they need to have that guru status. So their brain just starts coming up with things. They need to hear things that you don't, and perceive things that are "beyond science". We all crave recognition to some degree.

There are a hell of a lot of assumptions in what you wrote. Do you know any of these people? I have some amongst my friends, and I've been exposed to others through my work. None of them are at all egotistical and none seek any sort of guru status. All they care about is enjoying the music. Craving recognition? They all have their own fields of work and career, and often are highly educated.

I'm starting to observe that you seem to be opining on an area outside of your experience, and that is fraught. Applying the field you do know, to one you don't. When you are amongst your own you can seem wise, if you found yourself amongst the people I refer to you would seem silly. I don't mean that as any sort of barb, its just that you have to be careful with assumptions and opinions that are outside your own experience.

In psychology they talk about unconscious incompetence. When you don't know that you don't know something. Caution is advised.
 
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #94 on: February 04, 2019, 01:11:34 am »


Adding a bit of volume will make it sound 'better', that's how those tricks are often done. Human echoic memory is only 3-4 seconds. What happens after that is hard to compare if difference is small because you simply don't really remember what was before.

Yes, volume level will affect everything if it is changed. In the case I observed the only thing that was done was to switch off the amp, change the cord, and switch on again. The change in sound was not subtle and I have no explanation for it.

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Maybe the sound quality did improve, but not from the fancy power cord!

Sometimes, when the filter caps in a power supply are a bit marginal, turning the device off for a minute or so, then back on, will temporarily improve the output regulation of that supply.
(I had a "logical" explanation for this, but upon reflection, my explanation doesn't work if you just turn off the Mains in solid state equipment.)

In some cases, other components may have an intermittent problem which can be "temporarily" fixed by the removal  & restoration of power.

Obviously, the only way to prove this would be to go back & swap the power cord back.

This sort of thing does pop up at times, when you are fixing a lot of stuff.
 

Offline Gary.M

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #95 on: February 04, 2019, 01:17:02 am »
Yes, volume level will affect everything if it is changed. In the case I observed the only thing that was done was to switch off the amp, change the cord, and switch on again. The change in sound was not subtle and I have no explanation for it.

Maybe the sound quality did improve, but not from the fancy power cord!

Sometimes, when the filter caps in a power supply are a bit marginal, turning the device off for a minute or so, then back on, will temporarily improve the output regulation of that supply.
(I had a "logical" explanation for this, but upon reflection, my explanation doesn't work if you just turn off the Mains in solid state equipment.)

In some cases, other components may have an intermittent problem which can be "temporarily" fixed by the removal  & restoration of power.

Obviously, the only way to prove this would be to go back & swap the power cord back.

This sort of thing does pop up at times, when you are fixing a lot of stuff.

Well I'm not presenting any theory as to why, except that it just did. The amplifier was a brand new one, and I know the designer, and I know that it is well designed, so I doubt turning it off and on would make a difference. It was the only item turned off, everything else remained powered up. I have no idea why it did what it did.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #96 on: February 04, 2019, 01:18:26 am »
I said some people. And yes, full disclosure, I'm not a psychologist. Everything I say is opinion.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not judging anybody. We all have egos and they affect us on a subconscious level.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #97 on: February 04, 2019, 01:26:48 am »
Maybe the original power cable was too long or too thin.

I don't know how powerful this piece of equipment was, but with high current devices, you will get a lower voltage with power cables that have higher resistance. You will know this if you've tried to use a saw or something on a long extension. Just an idea, but this could have affected the output volume. In this case, you still don't need fancy cables, just power cords that are properly sized to the application (16awg or whatever the case may be).
 

Offline adauphin

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #98 on: February 04, 2019, 03:11:37 am »
Maybe the original power cable was too long or too thin.

I don't know how powerful this piece of equipment was, but with high current devices, you will get a lower voltage with power cables that have higher resistance. You will know this if you've tried to use a saw or something on a long extension. Just an idea, but this could have affected the output volume. In this case, you still don't need fancy cables, just power cords that are properly sized to the application (16awg or whatever the case may be).

Or maybe the fact that when the cord was changed, it sounded better.  ???

Seems that you may have a belief that nothing can sound better, it all sounds the same. For whatever reason, one cable is different from another, everything is on the table that can be different, except for the fact it can sound better, it's all a placebo effect....some wild hopeless fantasy that the audio being heard is the same and we are hoping, and imagining it could be better.

What defines better? The fact a vocal can sound a bit more true to life than before? The cymbal ride doesnt just have a crash sound but also a noticeable decay? Etc, etc.

I stated earlier that I had performed the same thing.....I replaced my upgraded cords with stock cords for a short session and it sounded much worse.

I get all the math involved, I'm not doubting that there are numerical values and in physics, electronics, numbers don't lie. I also get the fact there are many angles to what is going on, especially the psychological angle. The fact there are quite a numerous amount of people that hear differences, positive or negative, holds value. Not everyone is imagining things.  ;)

 

Offline wraper

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #99 on: February 04, 2019, 03:12:00 am »
Maybe the original power cable was too long or too thin.
It's just well prepared con show. There are many ways how to do this. Increase volume, play different track, adjust EQ. All of this can be done unnoticed even if spectator is relatively vigilant.
 

Offline adauphin

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #100 on: February 04, 2019, 03:17:49 am »
Maybe the original power cable was too long or too thin.
It's just well prepared con show. There are many ways how to do this. Increase volume, play different track, adjust EQ. All of this can be done unnoticed even if spectator is relatively vigilant.

There's surely a possibility it could happen. There's also a possibility that it didn't.

There's more to a stereo system than a woofer cone and a CD.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #101 on: February 04, 2019, 03:26:14 am »
Maybe the original power cable was too long or too thin.
It's just well prepared con show. There are many ways how to do this. Increase volume, play different track, adjust EQ. All of this can be done unnoticed even if spectator is relatively vigilant.

There's surely a possibility it could happen. There's also a possibility that it didn't.

There's more to a stereo system than a woofer cone and a CD.
Yeah, and less than 2 meter power cable sprinkled with virgin blood is supposed to have any effect when there is long wiring of cheap cables connected in series to it  :palm:.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #102 on: February 04, 2019, 03:28:58 am »
Seems that you may have a belief that nothing can sound better, it all sounds the same.

You are overreacting. I never said that, and of course it's not true.
Enclosures built with acoustics in mind can sound better. Low noise power supplies can sound better. Etc...

Power cables certainly will not have a measurable difference.

There are certain properties that are desirable in audio signal cables. I do not deny that. For example, coaxial cables can reject more interference. But the importance and claims of cabling in general is WAY overblown, and rife with exaggerations and outright lies.
 

Offline adauphin

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #103 on: February 04, 2019, 03:33:18 am »

Yeah, and less than 2 meter power cable is supposed to have any effect when there is long wiring of cheap cables connected in series to it  :palm:.

I mentioned that earlier.

Here's another angle to look at....how about an inferior cable taking away from the purity of a signal? How pure? Not putting a numerical value on it. But how about the possibility of accepting the......idea, that one cable can contribute to higher THD. By that rationale, there's the option of a cable contributing to a lower SQ.

« Last Edit: February 04, 2019, 03:35:45 am by adauphin »
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #104 on: February 04, 2019, 03:42:25 am »
how about the possibility of accepting the......idea, that one cable can contribute to higher THD.

So what are you waiting for? Show us how you measured lower THD with your litz wire.
 

Offline Gary.M

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #105 on: February 04, 2019, 04:08:33 am »
Maybe the original power cable was too long or too thin.

I don't know how powerful this piece of equipment was, but with high current devices, you will get a lower voltage with power cables that have higher resistance. You will know this if you've tried to use a saw or something on a long extension. Just an idea, but this could have affected the output volume. In this case, you still don't need fancy cables, just power cords that are properly sized to the application (16awg or whatever the case may be).

Yes, well there is that. The standard cable was a regular issue 1.5 meter mains cord terminated with an IEC C14 connector. The one that was substituted was quite a lot heavier gauge with substantial 3 pin and IEC connectors. However the loudspeakers were stand mounted units with a 5.25" bass driver, and the room was on the small size, so no power needed.
 

Offline Gary.M

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #106 on: February 04, 2019, 04:11:22 am »
Maybe the original power cable was too long or too thin.
It's just well prepared con show. There are many ways how to do this. Increase volume, play different track, adjust EQ. All of this can be done unnoticed even if spectator is relatively vigilant.

Well it couldn't be this either as the salesman wasn't the one making changes. It was just a guy who was curious and himself was surprised. No-one touched any of the controls and the guy played the same track each time, I guess to make comparison easier. These systems don't have eq either, that is a dirty word.
 

Offline Gary.M

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #107 on: February 04, 2019, 04:15:51 am »
At some levels, when people are passionate about things any subject becomes become a matter of faith. Once they reach that level, then it is usually either not worth talking, unless you want to join them. The are missionaries of their religion.

On a somewhat unrelated subject, I had a chat with somebody who does not believe in anthropomorphic climate change. They were a local politician. It was very painful for us both.

Audiophiles are a more harmless version of the same effect. They are trapped in a self-reinforcing feedback loop. The more skin one has have in the came (speakers, music, wire, 'source material', $$) the more important it becomes, and the less likely it is that one can provide an objective assessment. If you don't agree with them then change the subject or move on - you will never win, and only make them dig in harder.

Oh, and on the global warming topic there was some other crackpot who believed that it was all an big IPCC conspiracy, and they have forced various government and non-government agencies to falsify data - going as far as reprinting old books - to support their political agenda. Apparently he had an nephew who worked for [agency X] and they are all a bunch of crooks. Sigh...

Now now, you're confusing conspiracy theorists with people passionate about their pastime. As before I think you're looking over the fence at neighbours who don't speak the same language as you, and you're telling them that their world is wrong, despite there being a communication barrier.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #108 on: February 04, 2019, 04:18:45 am »
Please do not hijack this topic with your climate change opinions. It's completely off topic. Thanks.  :)
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #109 on: February 04, 2019, 04:21:13 am »
you're looking over the fence at neighbours who don't speak the same language as you, and you're telling them that their world is wrong

Audio and electronics share much of the same vocabulary.  ;)
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #110 on: February 04, 2019, 04:26:08 am »
If you don't agree with them then change the subject or move on - you will never win

With that mindset no you won't.

But if you don't set out to win an argument, and just discuss some specifics with an open mind, you often come away learning something. (even if you don't want to admit it). It doesn't have to be a contest.
 

Online BravoV

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #111 on: February 04, 2019, 04:31:53 am »
No thanks.  :)  I'm not interested in "aid", mobs or drama. Things are pretty civil so far (except the name calling). There has been a little bit of productive discussion, and maybe even a tiny bit of open mindedness. Escalation will only take things backwards.

Declaring people as a "type" is pretty insulting. The super-subtle "we don't take kindly to your folk around here" talk sounds like it's taken straight out of a scene of "Deliverance". Intimidation is a sad resort for people who have nothing intelligent to say.  :)

Poking fun on the other hand is totally fair game. In good humour of course. (and ideally tasteful and funny).

This is a science-centric forum so hopefully everybody comes expecting grown-up academic discussion. I think it's a big shame every time an opportunity for somebody to learn something is missed.

Fine, either you like it or not, its just the way it is the nature of this forum, many have the same taste as you said, the sense of poking fun, and from the past, at many discussions like this, ended up not pretty. My words actually more toward for the other side.  ;)

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #112 on: February 04, 2019, 04:35:47 am »
Thank you for the warning. Like I said, things are cool.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #113 on: February 04, 2019, 04:35:56 am »
Maybe the original power cable was too long or too thin.
It's just well prepared con show. There are many ways how to do this. Increase volume, play different track, adjust EQ. All of this can be done unnoticed even if spectator is relatively vigilant.

Well it couldn't be this either as the salesman wasn't the one making changes. It was just a guy who was curious and himself was surprised. No-one touched any of the controls and the guy played the same track each time, I guess to make comparison easier. These systems don't have eq either, that is a dirty word.
Have you thought this 'random' guy was actually one of those who sold this crap? It's a well known con tactic when some of the crowd are con men in disguise.
Quote
No-one touched any of the controls
There is such thing as remote control.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #114 on: February 04, 2019, 04:37:45 am »
That what I was thinking in the back of my head when I read that. But we will never prove it so it's pointless to discuss.
 

Offline Gary.M

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #115 on: February 04, 2019, 04:56:02 am »
you're looking over the fence at neighbours who don't speak the same language as you, and you're telling them that their world is wrong

Audio and electronics share much of the same vocabulary.  ;)

Not quite what I meant. We all speak the English language, but we are engineers, and there are others who are doctors, research scientists etc. Without being in an area of special interest it is hard to hold firm and valid opinions on it.
 

Offline Gary.M

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #116 on: February 04, 2019, 04:59:50 am »

Have you thought this 'random' guy was actually one of those who sold this crap? It's a well known con tactic when some of the crowd are con men in disguise.
Quote
No-one touched any of the controls
There is such thing as remote control.

Well no. There were just maybe 4 people in the room, and the guy who swapped the cable was definitely not suspect. I know him and he was not employed by the store. Also no-one was trying to demo anything to sell it, we were just kicking the tyres. The remote control was sitting untouched, I noted this.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #117 on: February 04, 2019, 05:03:30 am »

Have you thought this 'random' guy was actually one of those who sold this crap? It's a well known con tactic when some of the crowd are con men in disguise.
Quote
No-one touched any of the controls
There is such thing as remote control.

Well no. There were just maybe 4 people in the room, and the guy who swapped the cable was definitely not suspect. I know him and he was not employed by the store. Also no-one was trying to demo anything to sell it, we were just kicking the tyres. The remote control was sitting untouched, I noted this.
Yeah, and of course a only single piece remote control can exist.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #118 on: February 04, 2019, 05:10:31 am »
It doesn't really matter. We can go back and forth like this until the cow comes home.

The bottom line is that one guy saying "it sounded better to me" amounts to diddly squat. There's no theory, no data or explanation of any kind behind it.
 

Online rs20

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #119 on: February 04, 2019, 05:34:10 am »
Probably no chance of bringing this conversation back-on-topic at this stage, but this idea that solid wire is "the worst" needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Like, the fact that they use tubes of copper instead of solid bars is *not* because the tubes are better than solid bars in any absolute sense; they're just better per kilogram of copper. Carving the copper out of the middle of the rod to make the tube (yes I know that's not how tubes are made) increases the AC resistance a bit, they only reason they do so is because it's worth it for the copper your reclaim.

Consider comparing 1.5mm solid wire with 2.5mm solid wire. You would think that because the 2.5mm solid wire is bigger, the proportion of metal that is at the surface (by whatever fixed definition of depth you choose) will be lower, and that the "skin effect" would be more severe. Indeed, the ratiometric difference between DC resistance of 2.5mm solid wire and 20 kHz AC resistance of 2.5mm solid wire is greater than the ratiometric difference between DC 1.5mm and 20kHz 1.5mm.

HOWEVER, the 2.5mm solid wire has considerably more surface area than the 1.5mm solid wire, so its AC resistance at any given frequency is lower. It's just that at the limiting case, it decreases in proportion to the radius, not the radius squared as you would normally assume. The obvious and intuitive fact that 2.5mm solid wire carries electricity much better than a 1.5mm conductor holds perfectly true at both DC and 20kHz.

Take some speakers 10m (!) away from the amplifier, so a loop length of 20m. Here are the impedances at DC and 20 kHz:

         DC   20kHz
1.5mm  0.190  0.215   ohms
2.5mm  0.068  0.111   ohms


Now assuming the speakers have a flat 8 Ohm resistance (actually have no idea how valid this is but let's run with it), that works out to attenuations (in dB) of:

         DC   20kHz
1.5mm  0.204  0.230   dB
2.5mm  0.074  0.120   dB


To my surprise, it turns out that the flatness of the 2.5mm wire (0.046 dB) is inferior to the 1.5mm wire (0.026 dB). However, let's just keep things in context: 0.046 dB of flatness is absolutely inaudibly insignificant. Remember we're talking about a 10m long speaker wire here.

Reflecting upon this further, it turns out that both extremes (a tiny hair of wire that is immune to skin effect and a solid infinite diameter ingot of copper) have perfect flatness. There exists a worst-case diameter for flatness from DC to 20kHz, somewhere above 2.5mm. I wonder what that is?

Either way, avoiding solid wire on the basis of "skin effect" in audio applications is just silly.
 
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Offline Gary.M

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #120 on: February 04, 2019, 05:35:43 am »

Have you thought this 'random' guy was actually one of those who sold this crap? It's a well known con tactic when some of the crowd are con men in disguise.
Quote
No-one touched any of the controls
There is such thing as remote control.

Well no. There were just maybe 4 people in the room, and the guy who swapped the cable was definitely not suspect. I know him and he was not employed by the store. Also no-one was trying to demo anything to sell it, we were just kicking the tyres. The remote control was sitting untouched, I noted this.
Yeah, and of course a only single piece remote control can exist.
Your comments aren't at all constructive, merely combative.

Sent from my MI 8 using Tapatalk

 

Offline Gary.M

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #121 on: February 04, 2019, 05:39:34 am »
On the impedance thing, loudspeakers  can have wildly varying impedance, so it's possible that you would get interaction with a cable, but, perhaps the amplifier's damping factor and output Z comes into play as well. I don't think considering the construction of the wire is that useful.

Sent from my MI 8 using Tapatalk

 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #122 on: February 04, 2019, 05:43:43 am »
Yeah, and of course a only single piece remote control can exist.
Your comments aren't at all constructive, merely combative.

He's being a bit snarky, but he still has a point.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #123 on: February 04, 2019, 05:46:55 am »
I don't think considering the construction of the wire is that useful.

Well that's exactly what this topic is about... using Litz wire to mitigate skin effect.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #124 on: February 10, 2019, 12:52:21 am »

 
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Offline dzseki

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #125 on: February 11, 2019, 07:52:09 am »
It is interesting that no one questioned the quality of the connectors so far. The cable could be anything if your connectors are electrically loose. When dealing with "audiophile" cables not only the cables are different, but they usualy come with more robust connectors which may help in making better contacts, I think the toughest audiophobes can't argue that away either...
It seems trivial that if you put to conductors reasonably close the current is flowing through, but how close are those conductors on an atomic scale? :)
 

Online BrianHG

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #126 on: February 11, 2019, 08:48:53 am »

Slight misconceptions about the placebo effect in that video.  Making the pills cheap will actually make them less effective, or, ineffective.  If those same pills were 100$ a bottle, with the same BS contents, they would be much more effective....
__________
BrianHG.
 

Offline timelessbeing

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #127 on: February 11, 2019, 08:55:18 am »
 :palm: Christ almighty.
 

Offline Cnoob

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #128 on: February 11, 2019, 10:27:50 am »
For Audio frequencies the effect is only felt in the wallet :)
However from either creek or tannoy  they recommended a minimum length of speaker cable (4 metres if I remember correctly .)
Which would increase the impedance.
 

Offline The Soulman

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #129 on: February 11, 2019, 11:16:07 am »
However from either creek or tannoy  they recommended a minimum length of speaker cable (4 metres if I remember correctly .)

 :-// Any reference to that?
 

Offline Cnoob

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #130 on: February 11, 2019, 11:22:32 am »
Quote
[
  Any reference to that?/quote]

Sorry no this was years ago I don't have the speakers or Amplifer or their manuals
 

Offline phs

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #131 on: February 11, 2019, 11:37:26 am »
Sorry to veer off-topic, but this always hits a nerve.  The best, and likely the only scientifically valid, way to know if you're really hearing a difference or not:

Blind/ABX testing

Any claims of being able to discern differences in sound should be ignored unless valid, statistically significant, testing has been conducted.  People who don't even attempt reasonable testing are, at best, fooling themselves.

FFT, THD, etc. measurements, while critical for design and evaluation, can't prove people are able to actually hear a difference. 

It's incredible how many "audiophile" sound quality discernment discussions conveniently fail to even mention blind testing.

Of course even if folks demonstrate they hear a difference, via reasonable testing protocols, it's purely subjective whether it sounds "better" to them, or not.  At least if they can consistently pick out one output over the other 90% of the time, they can legitimately say they hear a difference.

...
"Doug Schneider, editor of the online Soundstage network, refuted this position with two editorials in 2009.[7][8] He stated: "Blind tests are at the core of the decades' worth of research into loudspeaker design done at Canada's National Research Council (NRC). The NRC researchers knew that for their result to be credible within the scientific community and to have the most meaningful results, they had to eliminate bias, and blind testing was the only way to do so." Many Canadian companies such as Axiom, Energy, Mirage, Paradigm, PSB and Revel use blind testing extensively in designing their loudspeakers. Audio professional Dr. Sean Olive of Harman International shares this view.[9]"
...

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_fidelity#Listening_tests)
 

Offline dzseki

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #132 on: February 11, 2019, 11:52:27 am »
Even then blind/abx testing is near impossible to conduct on speakers, starting with that you can't put the speakers to the very same place, loudness levels sould be matched exactly (but at what frequency?) etc.
 

Offline adauphin

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Re: The 'Skin Effect' for speaker wire.
« Reply #133 on: March 02, 2019, 11:37:35 pm »
These threads can touch nerves because there are people that tell other people what they are hearing. Without any tangible or numerical evidence to support any claims then apparently it just cannot happen.

Everything sounds the same, nothing sounds better, no cables matter. If you want to tell people they are tone deaf and it's all placebo then please feel free. Maybe the people you tell that it's all placebo, may have an ear for tuning instruments and have been around awhile.

I don't take offense to anyone believing this, just don't understand how and why someone's belief dictates someone else's experiences.

 


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