Author Topic: The war on encryption- The Five Eyes are watching you.  (Read 6301 times)

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Offline Halcyon

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Re: The war on encryption- The Five Eyes are watching you.
« Reply #75 on: September 26, 2018, 12:12:39 am »
Absolutely. But the same can be said for any number of semi-political discussions. As I mentioned before, people tend to fear or at least disapprove of ideas they have little to no knowledge about and basing their opinions on what is reported in mainstream media.

At the end of the day regardless of what you and I think or say, this stuff is still going to continue behind closed doors and that's the way it should remain.
Thanks for proving my point, I guess? People are much more informed than you're indicating, as has been discussed in the third link below. Pretending they're not is both insulting and silly, as is pretending that it's just an unfounded fear of the unknown. Many people have informed themselves quite well.

I don't disagree on your point. You're now just making a point for the sake of argument. I'm sure that there are some people who are well informed. No one is disputing that, but MOST people are not. If you knew me, you'd also know that I never "pretend", just to make that point clear.

Your arguments or viewpoints have all been discussed before and have been blown clean out of the water, yet you simply refuse to even acknowledge the arguments discussed and simply reiterate the statements you've made from the very start. Unfortunatly that's exactly what I referred to in my previous post in the fourth link below.

That's YOUR opinion but myself (and others) have a differing view. You not agreeing with me doesn't give your argument any more validity that it already has (good try, but it doesn't work that way).

I guess this is the point where you go "harumpf!"

You guess wrong. But that's OK too. ;-)

EDIT: I really couldn't care less whether you agree with my views and opinions or not. The world will still carry on as normal. This mentality of "if your views aren't equal to mine, then they are wrong" that some people tend to have on this forum needs to stop, we aren't school children. Most of us are smart enough to respect differing views without resorting claiming that they are incorrect. I'm not trying to change your mind, whether you do or don't has zero impact on me. Personally I welcome open discussion and enjoy seeing how others perceive things. I enjoy learning and being closed-minded never enters into my thought process, I might not always agree but that doesn't make either side of the argument more or less valid.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 12:43:55 am by Halcyon »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: The war on encryption- The Five Eyes are watching you.
« Reply #76 on: September 26, 2018, 12:41:29 am »
I don't disagree on your point. You're now just making a point for the sake of argument. I'm sure that there are some people who are well informed. No one is disputing that, but MOST people are not. If you knew me, you'd also know that I never "pretend", just to make that point clear.

That's YOUR opinion but myself (and others) have a differing view. You not agreeing with me doesn't give your argument any more validity that it already has (good try, but it doesn't work that way).

You guess wrong. But that's OK too. ;-)
What gives our arguments more validity is that we've quoted or referenced various sources. Anyone is entitled to an opinion, but that doesn't automatically grant those opinions equal value or validity. Content determines the value of the opinion and we haven't seen too much of it to support the case of ever expanding mass surveillance, other than reassurances that it's all really in our best interest but without quantifying that assurance. It should be noted that it's not surprising that little has been quantified in this thread, as even the various agencies themselves have proven incapable of providing much tangible evidence of the protection mass surveillance supposedly gives us. They've tried, but what they provided has been quickly dispelled by journalists and researchers.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: The war on encryption- The Five Eyes are watching you.
« Reply #77 on: September 26, 2018, 12:45:22 am »
What gives our arguments more validity is that we've quoted or referenced various sources. Anyone is entitled to an opinion, but that doesn't automatically grant those opinions equal value or validity. Content determines the value of the opinion and we haven't seen too much of it to support the case of ever expanding mass surveillance, other than reassurances that it's all really in our best interest but without quantifying that assurance. It should be noted that it's not surprising that little has been quantified in this thread, as even the various agencies themselves have proven incapable of providing much tangible evidence of the protection mass surveillance supposedly gives us. They've tried, but what they provided has been quickly dispelled by journalists and researchers.

It doesn't, see my edit above that I made just as you were typing, but claiming that my views have been "blown out of the water" is simply not correct and is bordering on childish.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: The war on encryption- The Five Eyes are watching you.
« Reply #78 on: September 26, 2018, 10:46:31 pm »
It doesn't, see my edit above that I made just as you were typing, but claiming that my views have been "blown out of the water" is simply not correct and is bordering on childish.
I don't mind phrasing it differently than "blown out of the water" if that phrasing is bothersome. The problem is that we're taught from a young age that we matter and that by extension our opinions do too. What they often neglect to teach is that an opinion is only worth as much as the reasoning it's built upon. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but that does not make all opinions equally valid or valuable. In this thread we see that one side is heavily argued from an emotional perspective, with a distinct lack of sources that quantify anything. It should be said that's unsurprising, as the various agencies have been attempting to argue something similar and have also been unable quantify their statements to a very relevant degree. Meanwhile, how mass surveillance isn't very effective or desirable has been argued both from an emotional perspective and through various references and sources. Ultimately the value of a position depends on the evidence that's brought forward to support it and there seems to be a huge divide visible in that regard.

I think everyone here would love to see how mass surveillance makes a massive difference in how safe we are in our day to day lives and how it doesn't threaten our civil liberties in the slightest, but neither seem to be the case. A lot of evidence of the opposite has been brought forward. I'm ready to go anywhere the evidence takes us and assume most others are too. I'd love to be wowed by solid evidence that's contrary to my position and learn a thing or two in the process.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 10:57:29 pm by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: The war on encryption- The Five Eyes are watching you.
« Reply #79 on: September 26, 2018, 11:46:43 pm »
It doesn't, see my edit above that I made just as you were typing, but claiming that my views have been "blown out of the water" is simply not correct and is bordering on childish.
I don't mind phrasing it differently than "blown out of the water" if that phrasing is bothersome. The problem is that we're taught from a young age that we matter and that by extension our opinions do too. What they often neglect to teach is that an opinion is only worth as much as the reasoning it's built upon. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but that does not make all opinions equally valid or valuable. In this thread we see that one side is heavily argued from an emotional perspective, with a distinct lack of sources that quantify anything. It should be said that's unsurprising, as the various agencies have been attempting to argue something similar and have also been unable quantify their statements to a very relevant degree. Meanwhile, how mass surveillance isn't very effective or desirable has been argued both from an emotional perspective and through various references and sources. Ultimately the value of a position depends on the evidence that's brought forward to support it and there seems to be a huge divide visible in that regard.

I think everyone here would love to see how mass surveillance makes a massive difference in how safe we are in our day to day lives and how it doesn't threaten our civil liberties in the slightest, but neither seem to be the case. A lot of evidence of the opposite has been brought forward. I'm ready to go anywhere the evidence takes us and assume most others are too. I'd love to be wowed by solid evidence that's contrary to my position and learn a thing or two in the process.

It's not the phrasing that bothers me, it's your intent behind it.

At the end of the day, I've said my piece and it's more than just opinion based on some reports in the media. It's based on first-hand experience. Forgive me if I don't go into details or provide sources, I'm not about to jeapordise protected information to "win" an argument on a public internet forum (not that I care that much about winning arguments).

I get they you and the majority of the public want to see "proof" but in some cases, it cannot be done to protect methodology etc... Secrets are kept secret for a reason and the general population simply doesn't need to know. Does it mean what goes on behind closed doors is sinister or malicious in nature? Absolutely not.

Anyway, you have your opinion and I have mine. As long as we both sleep well at night, it really doesn't matter.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: The war on encryption- The Five Eyes are watching you.
« Reply #80 on: September 27, 2018, 12:28:11 am »
It's not the phrasing that bothers me, it's your intent behind it.

At the end of the day, I've said my piece and it's more than just opinion based on some reports in the media. It's based on first-hand experience. Forgive me if I don't go into details or provide sources, I'm not about to jeapordise protected information to "win" an argument on a public internet forum (not that I care that much about winning arguments).

I get they you and the majority of the public want to see "proof" but in some cases, it cannot be done to protect methodology etc... Secrets are kept secret for a reason and the general population simply doesn't need to know. Does it mean what goes on behind closed doors is sinister or malicious in nature? Absolutely not.

Anyway, you have your opinion and I have mine. As long as we both sleep well at night, it really doesn't matter.
No details or sources means there's no argument to be made. As has been discussed before, keeping specific and operational matters secret for a little while can be required but the systemic veil of darkness goes much further than that. If anyone has been going dark it's the agencies themselves. Recent history shows their unwillingness to share anything has mostly been used to placate the public. There's absolutely no reason these agencies cannot provide evidence of any overall effectiveness in even the broadest sense. The attempts they've mounted to do so failed miserably, which rather alarmingly raises the distinct possibility that there might be none.

The agencies discussed have had a lot of leeway and various leaks have shown they've abused the trust we placed in them substantially. Simply put, they've blown it. Sinister things have been going on beyond closed doors and we have solid evidence to prove it. If you want special rights that potentially threaten the civil liberties our society is built upon, handwaving is not enough. You'll need to both prove that the hefty price society pays is worth it and that you can be trusted with the information and liberties we trust you with. Neither is happening at the moment. Almost the exact opposite is happening. Everyone consistently forgets it, but these governments and agencies are working for us and are accountable to us. The public not only has a right to know, it needs to know. Otherwise it might be best to just pull the plug and forget about the whole thing.
 
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Offline Halcyon

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Re: The war on encryption- The Five Eyes are watching you.
« Reply #81 on: September 27, 2018, 05:50:24 am »
Just because there are no specific details (to your satisfaction) doesn't invalidate the argument at all, if you choose to ignore someone's experiences, that's on you. Looks like we'll never agree and that's completely fine. As I said, it doesn't invalidate what I've been saying, nor will it prevent the sun from rising tomorrow.

Just like the "Climate Change" argument, most people are either on one side or another and no amount of convincing will sway them to change sides.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: The war on encryption- The Five Eyes are watching you.
« Reply #82 on: September 27, 2018, 06:25:22 am »
Just because there are no specific details (to your satisfaction) doesn't invalidate the argument at all, if you choose to ignore someone's experiences, that's on you. Looks like we'll never agree and that's completely fine. As I said, it doesn't invalidate what I've been saying, nor will it prevent the sun from rising tomorrow.

Just like the "Climate Change" argument, most people are either on one side or another and no amount of convincing will sway them to change sides.

The problem is that what you're essentially saying is this:  "I have secret information, which I cannot share, which gives me (or others) the right to have access to your secret information, whether you like it or not".    Both hypocritical - and illegal, as well as immoral IMO.

Government agencies in a democracy, no matter how special they think they are, require the consent of the governed. The problem is that time and time again, the intelligence agencies have shown that they illegally operate outside of what they have been given consent to do. This allows for the abuse by those in power to use these government agencies as operatives against political opponents and to wage illegal and unapproved covert wars.

It is only due to the fact that the majority of the public is uniformed and unaware of the extent that their basic rights are being violated (or too zonked out with TV and junk food to care), that these things are allowed to continue to happen.

So you can continue to think that your secret information gives you the right to violate others rights,  but the informed know the truth. After all, throughout history,  "secret police" have always found ways to justify their actions to themselves.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: The war on encryption- The Five Eyes are watching you.
« Reply #83 on: September 27, 2018, 07:03:35 am »
mtdoc,

If I could provide a list of instances where the plans of a terror suspect have been stopped mere days before an attack happened or the number of times people involved in child sex rings have been arrested and abuse of victims have been prevented, I'm pretty sure you or any normal person would have been supportive.

If you think that employees within Police and Intelligence organisations just sit there at a terminal, looking up random people willy-nilly for their own pleasure, then you are even more out-of-touch than those who know nothing about this kind of thing at all. Sure, there have been cases where some individuals have stepped outside the boundaries and have in some cases even acted corruptly in a serious way, but those cases are few and far between. The higher the level of access you have, the more you are watched and the more your accesses are scrutinised, and not just scrutinised by direct supervisors working for the same organisation, but external agencies whose job it is to go after people who abuse their authority. Let me tell you, those organisations who "Police the Police" are ruthless and would sooner book their own mother, than let a corrupt person off the hook. Every time someone corrupt gets caught, the level of scrutiny goes up and more checks are put into place (and rightly so).

Also, to even insinuate that I have illegally violated anyone's privacy or acted immorally is not only insulting and inaccurate, but is bordering on a personal attack and that's just not acceptable. I haven't quoted you in my reply on purpose, to give you the opportunity to re-consider your words and make an amendment.

As I have previously pointed out, this is one of those arguments where no one wins, the thread ends up getting locked and everyone is left with their original stance. That is all I'll say on the matter.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: The war on encryption- The Five Eyes are watching you.
« Reply #84 on: September 27, 2018, 07:24:57 am »
mtdoc,

If I could provide a list of instances where the plans of a terror suspect have been stopped mere days before an attack happened or the number of times people involved in child sex rings have been arrested and abuse of victims have been prevented, I'm pretty sure you or any normal person would have been supportive.
 
If any such things occurred because of mass surveillance the the intelligence agencies would be crowing about it.  You are creating a straw man.  There has never been any credible evidence that mass surveillance is effective. In fact several examinations of the NSAs illegal mass surveillance efforts have shown that it isn't.  But even if it was,  the question is is it worth the cost in loss of the essential human right to privacy?  That deserves public debate but government has been doing its best to avoid that.  There is a cost to freedom and maintenance of human dignity. After all the Stazi could have made the same such claim that their methods prevented terrorist and child sex rings. Does that mean it's justified?

And BTW, individuals for whom there is evidence that surveillance is justified have always been fair game for traditional targeted police and intelligence agency surveillance provided there is proper judicial oversight. No one here is disputing that.



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If you think that employees within Police and Intelligence organisations just sit there at a terminal, looking up random people willy-nilly for their own pleasure,
Another straw man. I have never said such a thing.

Quote
Also, to even insinuate that I have illegally violated anyone's privacy or acted immorally is not only insulting and inaccurate, but is bordering on a personal attack and that's just not acceptable.
It should be completely obvious to anyone reading my posts that I was referring to the general claim that illegal mass surveillance is justified by the argument  "I have information that if you only knew,  would justify mass surveillance".  If you are taking that personally then it is only to the extent that you have claimed that for yourself. Here is your earlier statement:

Quote from: Halcyon
I've said my piece and it's more than just opinion based on some reports in the media. It's based on first-hand experience. Forgive me if I don't go into details or provide sources, I'm not about to jeapordise protected information to "win" an argument on a public internet forum (not that I care that much about winning arguments).


Quote
I haven't quoted you in my reply on purpose, to give you the opportunity to re-consider your words and make an amendment.
Quote away. Just don't take my quotes out of context

 

Offline gnif

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Re: The war on encryption- The Five Eyes are watching you.
« Reply #85 on: September 27, 2018, 07:27:30 am »
Enough of this, thread locked. Everyone is entitled to their opinions on the matter, but this is just turning into an argument.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: The war on encryption- The Five Eyes are watching you.
« Reply #86 on: September 27, 2018, 07:32:18 am »
This thread got too personal, I agree with the lock.
 


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