EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
General => General Technical Chat => Topic started by: watchmaker on November 08, 2024, 01:36:38 pm
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Thanks to Aldo in the passive probes thread in test equipment, I did a search on free online college courses.
There are a number of services that aggregate free online courses across universities and colleges worldwide. https://learning.edx.org/ being one example.
I grew up "poor"; single uneducated "parent" in public housing. I just now lost all patience with anyone who complains they are locked out from advancing themselves.
Damn, all they have to do is stop streaming Survivor and spend that time in an online course. Don't even have to go to community college! Learning has never been more accessible!
To Hell with their whining!
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well some don't even have access to that ...
even in 2024 i know some an-alphabet peoples, who managed hide their problems pretty well until i saw something ...
I i'm a partially self made man, did not got into college, university ...
now at 54, i have lost half of my life in poor jobs ... until i got lucky 2-3 years ago
and yes the "system(s)" are @#%$##
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Many employers have tuition reimbursement programs including Taco Bell
https://scholarships360.org/financial-aid/taco-bell-tuition-assistance/
With grants and scholarships, the first two years (community college) should be essentially free. The last two years may be a challenge but there are still grants and scholarships.
Ultimately it comes down to doing the work. I worked full time and overtime all through undergrad and just full time during grad school. The Army paid for undergrad and my employer paid for grad. There wasn't much time for parties...
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I agree that between the free libraries that are available in many parts of the world and access to the internet which is also widespread but not universal there is little excuse for being uneducated. Receiving the benefits of that education is often not as easy. Ranges from the obvious (no one in the home area has a need for the skills involved) to the stupid. Gatekeeping rules that require attendance at a university to get a degree and employers that hire by degree rather than by capability or laws that require licensing that in turn requires that piece of paper.
I have been doubly fortunate, having been on the right side of those gatekeeping functions, and also by having colleagues who somehow escaped those gates and were able to exercise their brilliance without the formal piece of paper.
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For the highly capable there are many ways to learn, and always have been. People of more modest ability, who can do quite well in a more formal learning environment, typically struggle without assistance. Highly capable people who failed to understand this thought MOOCs were going to be massive, but they failed to understand the needs of more average people. MOOCs have worked quite well for the highly capable, but have been underwhealming for the mass market.
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Many employers have tuition reimbursement programs including Taco Bell
https://scholarships360.org/financial-aid/taco-bell-tuition-assistance/
With grants and scholarships, the first two years (community college) should be essentially free. The last two years may be a challenge but there are still grants and scholarships.
Ultimately it comes down to doing the work. I worked full time and overtime all through undergrad and just full time during grad school. The Army paid for undergrad and my employer paid for grad. There wasn't much time for parties...
X10 and I had NO time for parties. As someone from a very poor family I went into the US Mil specifically so that I could go to school under the GI Bill. But a marriage consumed seven years of the ten years that it was available so I had to finish four years of school in three years so I never went to the parties or other social events.
The .MIL is a practical alternative that is available to just about anyone that WANTS an education and that is willing to work to get it. Today that are also all kinds of grants including the Bright Futures grants here in Florida and will pay most, or all, of the college costs for anyone that can manage to graduate from high school. Today, there is NO excuse for anyone not being able to go to college that actually wants to. But as someone that lives less than a mile from the 2nd largest university in the United States, my observation is that most (80+%) of the kids in college are there for the parties and the social life and so that they don't have to go find a real job. A friend of mine's son took over 9 years to get a 4 year degree (in basket weaving) at Arizona State and he only finished because his parents finally cut off his funding.
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Don't forget that if you have internet, don't need to worry about having how to pay for electricity and don't need to work two jobs to make enough to feed your family, then you probably have time to educate yourself.
Many in those positions of needing that education are not so lucky. The problem is not the access to the learning materials - but having the means so that you can dedicate the time and resources to actually use it!
Otherwise you are only the proverbial rich guy telling the poor to stop being poor - "just look at me, it is so easy, you have no excuse!"
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Even prior to the proliferation of online interactive courses, torrent sites had plenty of e-books/pdfs of university text books.
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Don't forget that if you have internet, don't need to worry about having how to pay for electricity and don't need to work two jobs to make enough to feed your family, then you probably have time to educate yourself.
Many in those positions of needing that education are not so lucky. The problem is not the access to the learning materials - but having the means so that you can dedicate the time and resources to actually use it!
Otherwise you are only the proverbial rich guy telling the poor to stop being poor - "just look at me, it is so easy, you have no excuse!"
Why did you make a good point sound so dumb. The internet, and the small amount of electricity needed to access it, are not an obstacle for even poor people in western countries. The real obstacles for many people are space and time. Studying without a comfortable space is really hard. Some poor people have too much time on their hands, but many do lack time because they work so hard just to survive.
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Maybe with between 16-30 years, yes, they're usually the strong years, but don't forget about working, sleeping, homework, social life, maybe wife and children...
So after 8 hours of had work a day not everyone can spend hours in online courses, or doesn't have the requiered energy, plus you'll hardly retain anything unless you have easy job and sleep well, which is also becoming rare these days.
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I think OP's take on it is not right for a few reasons I've seen.
1. Learning is difficult, unpleasant. It requires patience, focus, tenacity etc. which is a lost skill in people. Children are now raised with a lot of "screen time" and thus have a very short attention span. They cannot learn to the depths of generations prior. And who needs to learn, you just "google it" or ask for the answer.
Second, learning something means you will be wrong sometimes. This is also unpleasant and the school system is all about "right" or "correctness" as a major personal power. In electronics the most fun is being wrong, it's when you will learn neat stuff. But nowadays it's all about being right, especially on social media.
The younger generation is incapable of figuring things out because they squirm to no end in discomfort at not knowing- instead of being OK with that or even enjoying it.
2. Some people are dumb, have low IQ. Education, learning etc. is a terrible experience for them. In class they are surrounded by students that can learn, get higher grades, but they can't. So their self-esteem takes a massive hit and eventually they hate learning and hate school - for life.
Decades ago when I decided to go to tech college, my friends would talk to me about my decision and I was surprised at their reasons for the dislike of "school". I told them it was not high school because you're not forced content but instead taking courses on stuff you like. I told them learning something is not that hard, not to just give up.
So I had at least 6 friends go to post-secondary after I talked to them about it. A few minutes talk changed their minds. That was really surprising for me. Major fork in the road of a person's life. Somehow I trail blazed.
My not so bright high school friend who avoided education went on to rob a bank. The casino of crime lol.
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Yes, I think there's no excuse for declaring there's no excuse for being uneducated. For all the reasons given just above.
Look: people are all different, and their circumstances are also different. Some of these circumstances are within their control, but others aren't. Poverty, for one thing, is a crippling condition, and many fewer people in that condition are going to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" and educate themselves.
There are always exceptional people who end up being very successful and well-educated despite coming from horrible circumstances, but these people are the exception, not the rule, and it's unfair to hold them up as examples and say "See! They can do it; why can't you?".
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My career slowly shifted from hw (1980s) to sw (y2k) so I'm very appreciative to EEVBlog as a educational resource.
Thanks Dave Jones
(that's what she said)
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Don't forget that if you have internet, don't need to worry about having how to pay for electricity and don't need to work two jobs to make enough to feed your family, then you probably have time to educate yourself.
Many in those positions of needing that education are not so lucky. The problem is not the access to the learning materials - but having the means so that you can dedicate the time and resources to actually use it!
Otherwise you are only the proverbial rich guy telling the poor to stop being poor - "just look at me, it is so easy, you have no excuse!"
Why did you make a good point sound so dumb. The internet, and the small amount of electricity needed to access it, are not an obstacle for even poor people in western countries. The real obstacles for many people are space and time. Studying without a comfortable space is really hard. Some poor people have too much time on their hands, but many do lack time because they work so hard just to survive.
If poor people were paid more, then they could spend more time upskilling and learning, rather than working long hours at slave wage rates just to pay power bills and rent.
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Don't forget that if you have internet, don't need to worry about having how to pay for electricity and don't need to work two jobs to make enough to feed your family, then you probably have time to educate yourself.
Many in those positions of needing that education are not so lucky. The problem is not the access to the learning materials - but having the means so that you can dedicate the time and resources to actually use it!
Otherwise you are only the proverbial rich guy telling the poor to stop being poor - "just look at me, it is so easy, you have no excuse!"
Why did you make a good point sound so dumb. The internet, and the small amount of electricity needed to access it, are not an obstacle for even poor people in western countries. The real obstacles for many people are space and time. Studying without a comfortable space is really hard. Some poor people have too much time on their hands, but many do lack time because they work so hard just to survive.
If poor people were paid more, then they could spend more time upskilling and learning, rather than working long hours at slave wage rates just to pay power bills and rent.
"Poor people that are paid more" are essentially middle-class people, and there's zero evidence, unfortunately, that these spend more time upskilling on average in their daily life. They just work long hours as well, with better rates and mostly pay the bills as well, just with better housing and nicer cars. I know you were meaning to defend the idea that blaming their difficult condition on poor people isn't right, but poor or not, the OP still has a point. We as a whole spend way too much time on useless entertainement, and sure, there are exceptions, but on average, most of us have the ability to learn something.
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If poor people were paid more, then they could spend more time upskilling and learning, rather than working long hours at slave wage rates just to pay power bills and rent.
If the rate of pay for the kinds of jobs poor people do were higher, they'd be unemployed. So, they'd have plenty of time for study, but that's probably not the goal you were looking for. High pay ahead of a a high value/productivity employee just can't work.
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To be fair, this is kind of like a kid growing up in an inner city with uneducated parents who only know the neighborhood as their universe. That kid does not know the range of opportunities that exist unless he gets a couple good teachers in school. I do wonder how my "whiners" would respond if they were informed how easy it is to access education for free? As it is, you do have to be self motivated and somewhat imaginative to find these online courses.
OTOH, given my life experience, I am somewhat skeptical even if this was more widely communnicated.
Am I self made man? Hell no. An awful lot of people held their hands out to me. But I had to show I wanted what they had to offer. I will spare you the "When I was a boy" stories. I simply did what needed to be done to get ahead. Obstacles were simply challenges that had to be met and worked around.
I remember Christmas dinners left on the porch. So I have always been empathetic to those who do not have resources.
But in this day and age, learning has never been so accessible. At no charge! Better than Guttenberg! All you have to do is apply yourself. If kids who were diagnosed as autistic or learning disabled or cognitively deficient can graduate from college.... (my policy career included special ed research)
Look at all the immigrants in whatever country that figure out how to learn and get ahead. Compare successful farmers to those who go under. Self learning despite 14 hour days and financial uncertainty.
Whether it is understanding history, literature or a technical field, it is easier today to get educated than at any time in history. The only question is whether the time is spent watching reruns of Seinfeld or exercising the brain. Yes, it takes work and can hurt. But so does physical excercise.
I highly value people who go to night school (which I tried for free when I worked at Johns Hopkins Universty and found it damned hard; stopped after one course.).
I especially value people who like my mother worked as a female janitor in the public schools. And I let them know it. I KNOW there are people who are stuck in position and cannot move for very real reasons. But they do not whine. They simply plug along.
But people who complain about their lot in life and do nothing to move forward I do not understand. Our tickets for this ride are time limited. I have no intention of wasting time complaining when I can be exploring.
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Second, learning something means you will be wrong sometimes. This is also unpleasant and the school system is all about "right" or "correctness" as a major personal power. In electronics the most fun is being wrong, it's when you will learn neat stuff. But nowadays it's all about being right, especially on social media.
Your other points are good, and I see what you are saying here, but it doesn't line up with what I experienced.
Basic math, physics, and electronics are essentially known, so there is a right answer to things. Being wrong and making mistakes is always expected.
To be fair, this is kind of like a kid growing up in an inner city with uneducated parents who only know the neighborhood as their universe. That kid does not know the range of opportunities that exist unless he gets a couple good teachers in school. I do wonder how my "whiners" would respond if they were informed how easy it is to access education for free? As it is, you do have to be self motivated and somewhat imaginative to find these online courses.
So did you have a couple good teachers in school? I know I had many, without them I don't know if I'd be at this level.
I don't want to get into politics, but depending on the state you grew up in, there is also a very large difference in available funding and student outcomes for K-12 education.
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I don't want to get into politics, but depending on the state you grew up in, there is also a very large difference in available funding and student outcomes for K-12 education.
Although its really messed up that school funding can vary so much across a single country, in the US there seems to be no relation between school results and funding. Many of the districts we keep seeing in the news where hardly any of the pupils are up to minimum standards are among the better funded ones.
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Don't forget that if you have internet, don't need to worry about having how to pay for electricity and don't need to work two jobs to make enough to feed your family, then you probably have time to educate yourself.
Many in those positions of needing that education are not so lucky. The problem is not the access to the learning materials - but having the means so that you can dedicate the time and resources to actually use it!
Otherwise you are only the proverbial rich guy telling the poor to stop being poor - "just look at me, it is so easy, you have no excuse!"
Why did you make a good point sound so dumb. The internet, and the small amount of electricity needed to access it, are not an obstacle for even poor people in western countries. The real obstacles for many people are space and time. Studying without a comfortable space is really hard. Some poor people have too much time on their hands, but many do lack time because they work so hard just to survive.
If poor people were paid more, then they could spend more time upskilling and learning, rather than working long hours at slave wage rates just to pay power bills and rent.
If "poor" people were paid as much as they think that they should be paid then they would have no incentive to get a better job; or to get a better education so that they could get a better job.
That is the mindset where many people are today, they're not willing to work to get an education so they can't get a better job and instead they riot and demand a higher minimum wage. The McDonalds workers in California that had been working in McDonalds for 20+ years for minimum wage and that were rioting in the streets a few years ago demanding a $25 per hour "living wage" are a good example. Hell, I worked in McDonalds too. But when I was fifteen years old and didn't have a car or a driver's license or even a high school degree. But I only worked there one summer and the next year I had a much better job. Minimum wage employers like McDonalds are only good for temporary jobs for very unskilled people, they're not supposed to be a career that pays a "living wage" for 40+ year old people with families.
After I got out of the military I took a good paying job as a computer field engineer but even there I needed/wanted to earn more but I found that without a college degree, no one would hire me for a better paying job. So I saved up some money, quit my job and went back to school and got an engineering degree. The starting pay at my first job out of college started at over twice the maximum that my old job paid and eventually maxed out at about five times higher than my previous job.
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There is NO excuse for being uneducated
The sentiment and points sound ok, and I would like to blame some people for being the way they are, but this attitude is a little short sighted and for the world population at large, there will always be uneducated people. And, whether you live in a third or first world country, it will still happen. I can only place personal blame on uneducated individuals who are in the top 1% of our society since their birth. Everyone else will have legitimate reasons built over a lifetime which you arent able to see.
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Watching Charlie Kirk videos, I 100% understand why someone want to opt out of the education system.
My education was practically free. Costs were minimal, no student loan, politics free, at the best university the country had. Students were encouraged to have a rational though.
I don't think I would want to go to university in the US today.
If poor people were paid more, then they could spend more time upskilling and learning, rather than working long hours at slave wage rates just to pay power bills and rent.
If poor people were paid more, then everything would cost more
And they would be exactly where they are today, just with a bunch of inflation destroying the savings of the middle class as well.
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Second, learning something means you will be wrong sometimes. This is also unpleasant and the school system is all about "right" or "correctness" as a major personal power. In electronics the most fun is being wrong, it's when you will learn neat stuff. But nowadays it's all about being right, especially on social media.
Your other points are good, and I see what you are saying here, but it doesn't line up with what I experienced.
Basic math, physics, and electronics are essentially known, so there is a right answer to things. Being wrong and making mistakes is always expected.
To be fair, this is kind of like a kid growing up in an inner city with uneducated parents who only know the neighborhood as their universe. That kid does not know the range of opportunities that exist unless he gets a couple good teachers in school. I do wonder how my "whiners" would respond if they were informed how easy it is to access education for free? As it is, you do have to be self motivated and somewhat imaginative to find these online courses.
So did you have a couple good teachers in school? I know I had many, without them I don't know if I'd be at this level.
I don't want to get into politics, but depending on the state you grew up in, there is also a very large difference in available funding and student outcomes for K-12 education.
Before I answer about my teachers, I just want to say I agree with you about mistakes. The ONLY way to learn is by making mistakes. That is when we are forced to analyze our methods. You have to make mistakes in 3rd grade arithmetic to understand how to carry or how to do division. As one micromaching instructor was fond to say "Another opportunity to excel".
ALL of my school teachers were great. I grew up in NY during the time of the Regents Exams. Many of my teachers were Jewish immigrants from after the war. Some were camp survivors. I totally agree about school funding. Many are unaware the Feds got involved in school funding NOT for touchy feelie reasons, but because too may males were too uneducated for the draft.
My most favorite teacher was Mr. Vanzo, my voc ed Electronics shop teacher. I had been in the gifted and talented programs since 6th grade, but being me, I rebelled in the 11th grade and went into the shops (I was BORN a curmudgeon). Anyway, I watched him teach thrown away kids how to do polar and imaginary math, Thevenin and Norton. This was so that we could design/build our own devices in 12th grade. Today this is called STEM for college bound kids. Go figure.
He actually inspired me to go into educational policy.
I also had a 9th grade Social Studies teacher (Mr. Driscoll) whose mantra was "READ damn it, anything!!"
From Kindergarten on, as she went off to school, my goodbye to my daughter was "Learn something".
New Hampshire is one of the worst states for public school funding. And the citizen decision making regarding taxes and schools drives me nuts. I have stories from when I worked in special ed and a county was taken over by retirees in the 1980s. Why should I pay for school when my kids are grown? Of course the answer is "Who paid for yours?", but then they come up with some lame comment.
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My parents' education was interrupted because they spent their youth in a concentration camp as unwilling guests of Adolf. I wonder what school life is like in Ukraine and Gaza today?
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The government in some countries will punish people for trying to become educated.
Fear for ones life seems like a perfectly valid excuse to me.
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The government in some countries will punish people for trying to become educated.
Fear for ones life seems like a perfectly valid excuse to me.
Look at the women in Afghanistan who make learning a priority for their daughters despite the threat of death. I understand your sentiment, but people make, live and die by their choices.
Inquisition, etc.
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The government in some countries will punish people for trying to become educated.
Fear for ones life seems like a perfectly valid excuse to me.
Through most of history governments have feared an educated populace, and only a small number of jobs really required an education. A lot is of made of the suppression of women's education, but it wasn't much different for most men. It was only the industrial revolution, and the need to have most people at least about to read write and do simple maths, that lead to mass education.
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You could post this to TikTok, in a way easily digestible to the crazies who hang out there. That place is a SEA of ill-educated people.
I often help people with emotional support and counselling, a lot of whom use TikTok, that’s how I know.
Don’t EVER get an account there unless you absolutely HAVE to; I feel my IQ drop by 100 points every minute I’m there.
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BTW, in USSR, those guys who'd preferred the mine-pub-football-box-girls lifestyle were generally paid better than an engineers. So millions were happy doing a dumb jobs from generation to generation. Yet many people pursued a university education and the universities didn't experience applicant shortage. Yes, education was free, but being an engineer typically resulted in less salary. So it's not always as simple as dumb stupid economy.
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Some countries greatly value education towards advancing a nation and its people. Other countries do not.
Businesses resent the higher wages of educated people and now we have them cry "there are no qualified people" as a shortage... really- of cheap labour. MBA's push outsourcing to save money there as well.
We learn by doing, practicing, repetition.
Online college courses - I think they would be like watching TV. Retention and learning isn't there, the brain considers it fluff content.
To learn to drive a car, you need to get behind the wheel. To learn electronics, you need to solder parts, breadboard and use test equipment. To learn mountain climbing, you need to leave the desk chair. To learn to play guitar, you need to pick one up and work it.
Using a computer and mouse - is that a "course"?
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During the height of the Covid pandemic, many (most) colleges and universities turned to online education and the courses were excellent. Learning about the new revenue stream, many (most) have kept the model. What is there to gain sitting in a lecture hall with 400 other students?
Clear back in the late '70s, Stanford University was broadcasting their EE lectures to classrooms provided by the various employers in Silicon Valley and the resident students were also taking the very same courses via a video link on campus.
We know how to do this. Khan Academy, Calc Workshop and many others have very detailed programs and tools like Desmos.com and SymbolLab.com fill in the gaps. There are plenty of forums should questions arise.
BTW, many of the online college and university programs result in an actual diploma, the same one the resident students receive. Unfortunately, the tuition tends to be the same as well.
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What is there to gain sitting in a lecture hall with 400 other students?
Gee, i don't know: how about better and easier interaction with the teacher? and with other students?
Keep in mind that every Zoom session, every chat window puts you at least one more arms length away from real interaction.
Young people have no clue, though, as this is the world they grew up in. More's the pity.
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During the height of the Covid pandemic, many (most) colleges and universities turned to online education and the courses were excellent. Learning about the new revenue stream, many (most) have kept the model. What is there to gain sitting in a lecture hall with 400 other students?
During the height of the Covid pandemic MOOCs were already quite old, and had been failing badly. Many residential colleges and universities turned to online education, and the results were dismal. However, learning about new revenue possibiltird many have kept this model, as only the money really counts. Sitting with 400 other students in a lecture theatre used to work well to keep those people focussed on one thing. This is something many people find hard. Now, there are many distractions available in a lecture theatre, so they work less well. However, they still keep people a bit more focussed than in a less constrained environment. What happens outside the lecture theatre is the bigger part of what makes effective colleges work well, and I'm not talking about the sex drugs and rock and roll. I'm talking about the kind of human interactions that are a massive help those who are not in the top 1% of performers.
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During the height of the Covid pandemic, many (most) colleges and universities turned to online education and the courses were excellent. Learning about the new revenue stream, many (most) have kept the model. What is there to gain sitting in a lecture hall with 400 other students?
During the height of the Covid pandemic MOOCs were already quite old, and had been failing badly. Many residential colleges and universities turned to online education, and the results were dismal. However, learning about new revenue possibiltird many have kept this model, as only the money really counts. Sitting with 400 other students in a lecture theatre used to work well to keep those people focussed on one thing. This is something many people find hard. Now, there are many distractions available in a lecture theatre, so they work less well. However, they still keep people a bit more focussed than in a less constrained environment. What happens outside the lecture theatre is the bigger part of what makes effective colleges work well, and I'm not talking about the sex drugs and rock and roll. I'm talking about the kind of human interactions that are a massive help those who are not in the top 1% of performers.
Or, for the more introverted students, they might feel lost in a sea of humanity and have social interaction with none. In-person time with a professor is likely impossible in a class of hundreds and questions are directed to TAs during special study sessions. These sessions are where the real learning happens.
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there is a problem with learning online that is the practical stuff. its not good for hardware engineering. You just need lab experience to be any good. Well unless its what I would consider to be 'mad over funded' where you get bored people to try to 'sort out' the 'missing links' for a new 'theoretical' engineer
I always noticed the people that say you don't, have a view that is abstract and not practical.
3d printers give mechanical engineers a bit of an advantage here at learning from home, for static objects design or for weak low stress systems. But the good ones will need like a lathe and mill to see 'what its really about'
I think some people had alot of success with things like analog discovery and raspi in the sense of having a 'reasonable' lab for 'regular students' (most people would consider the amount of money and equipment we put into our hobby as extreme that gets us to a more advanced level). I think raspi and AD kind of put a 'societally normal' home EE into the same league as a home MechE with a 3d printer and a few things from home depot. But EE's got FUCKED hard now because they cracked down on samples, which normally let you play with some pretty fancy stuff before your first job, but they got boosted by services like JLCPCB to some extent.
I saw this attempted to get leveraged by putting a raspi in the center of a rather ambitious work project, that got wrecked because of some kind of EMC like problems they did not anticipate with 'scale' that tanked the project
And this all leads into my belief that some things just 'dont go into the brain' unless they have a 'physical' component.
I don't know much about software but I don't think its as rosey as people say because of the realities you might face on a corporate network (program restrictions, security restrictions, OS restrictions, license restrictions (oh boy, see what happens when you 'follow the guidelines of a 'coding' community and misuse a license in corporate! the question is, do you know how to solve the problem WITHOUT it getting sticky with libraries that have licenses in a reasonable amount of time )
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Or, for the more introverted students, they might feel lost in a sea of humanity and have social interaction with none. In-person time with a professor is likely impossible in a class of hundreds and questions are directed to TAs during special study sessions. These sessions are where the real learning happens.
If you are in a place where they use TAs, you need to find yourself a real college. I know its pretty common in many places now, but its a scam.
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over worked people with no education experience, usually with a grudge against the professor they work for (they get work dumped on them) . what can go wrong ?
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Huge apologies for the wall of text, but this is important:
The thing we are lacking is showing kids how to learn for themselves.
It can be difficult to find the way for yourself if you don't have anyone guiding you, although many –– including all members participating in this thread, I suspect –– do end up finding it on their own.
It is the most important thing every human being should learn in primary school, after reading and writing. Everything else you can fill in later. Fortunately, you are never too old to learn, not even to learn how you learn, because it is built in to us humans. Some do have afflictions that make it harder, yes, like dyslexia and memory issues, but it is only impossible if you have severe mental impairment.
Many learn best by using their hands, from physical actions. For some, that suffices; for others, they learn more from the errors they make.
Many learn by explaining their understanding, for example by writing notes in their own words.
Some learn best by reading/hearing, and then from trying to apply their understanding for solving problems. I belong to this category myself, although my memory is greatly aided if I write my own words on paper by hand.
Some learn best by observing others. I don't mean mimicry, or copying their actions! I mean, they relate to other humans and one-on-one interactions much better than to things, and truly learn faster when they can observe other people or discuss it with other people, or approach the thing from a human-centric viewpoint, for example by examining what happened to someone involved.
Very few learn by reading alone.
Repetition helps, but is actually a matter of timing rather than number of repetitions. The neural pathways get stronger if engaged at specific intervals. The exact details vary from person to person, and as you get older you can get much more effective at recognizing and leveraging this in yourself.
There are many other ways I don't know of. Thing is, they are all proper ways to learn. What works best, works best, and that's it. One reason us humans are so successful as a species –– I mean, we thrive in all environments on Earth, from the poles to the equator: something that basically no other species of animal can do –– is our ability to learn.
An important facet of that is that individuals learn in different ways. Forcing a specific way is no good, because it is like stuffing a square peg in a triangular hole. Or forcing a left-handed person to write with their right hand, or vice versa. (Hand/lateral dominance details can be observed in most mammals. Even cats prefer one paw for precision work.)
The main way schools in Western cultures fail today is actually not incompetent teachers, but the school environment forcing a specific way/mode of learning, and not accepting/allowing the many others.
What we need, is a set of Youtube/Rumble/Whatever videos targeted for kids and another for adults, or many sets each targeted on specific culture or background, that explains this and encourages people to try and find what works for them. Most members here have learned this for themselves, often early on, and feel that everyone should have done so already; yet, it is not so. Learning efficiently is a skill on its own, and varies from person to person! The most common pitfall in schools is picking the path of least resistance, which usually means passing tests instead of actually learning. The difference between learning and memorization should be particularly highlighted. The latter is useful, too, for things like basic arithmetic (multiplication tables), but on complex issues leads to passing tests instead of learning things.
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:popcorn:
Without redirecting; my focus for the original post was adult learners. Those who find themselves griping about being stuck where they are and not doing anything about it. Yet, there are an abundance of offerings of free online courses that would help them advance themselves with a little effort.
Like the farmers who sign up for every course put on by their ag extension department. It takes effort and serious commitment, but it is possible.
If someone thinks just viewing a lecture on youtube is going to do the job, they are very naive. You have to do the work, the problem sets and the labs. Watch one of Lewin's MIT lectures. If you do not pause it and think through what he is saying, you are missing out.
You get out according to what you put in.
I was not suggesting this was a replacement for a school based education which may be the best option. But not all (especially those over 30) can take that option. It IS an option for those who are stuck and cannot afford the money or time for in person classes. But like night school, it is very demanding.
But the free college courses of study go far beyond engineering (Math, history, literature, whatever). This is an astounding change in the availability of learning opportunities. And for HS kids in rural underserved schools, it can be a game changer (think advanced placement courses).
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Without redirecting; my focus for the original post was adult learners. Those who find themselves griping about being stuck where they are and not doing anything about it. Yet, there are an abundance of offerings of free online courses that would help them advance themselves with a little effort.
I know. My point is that some are limited by never having learned how they themselves learn (best/effectively/with least frustration), and most do not know that that is a thing. Many, if not most, humans believe that everyone learns the same way. That is not true.
And also that if extended to kids, we'd really open up the learning potential of the entire population. We no longer require organizations to learn, only to test/grade/certify. For some odd reason, "organizational" learning is still considered superior, regardless of the results.
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I left school with no qualifications at all.
So ended up in a labouring job which I hated.
One day I was in the job centre and spotted an advertisement for a training opportunities cheme.
I applied and had to do 2 maths exams to get on teh course.
I passed the first exam but failed the second one.
So I went away and worked hard to catch up.
I eventually passed the second exam too.
I went away for a year on the course and studed industrial electronics.
After a week the tutor said he didnt think I would manage the course.
So I worked hard to catch up and eventually got to the top of class.
I did the exams at the end of the year and got distinctions.
If you have drive to get on then you most likely will get on.
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A distant cousin said to me "I don't know how to study", "I don't know how to do homework" :palm:
That was an eye opening moment. I tried to teach him - but not knowing how to learn was his struggle.
You can't assume people know the basics.
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A distant cousin said to me "I don't know how to study", "I don't know how to do homework" :palm:
That was an eye opening moment. I tried to teach him - but not knowing how to learn was his struggle.
You can't assume people know the basics.
I think we assume that after a number of years of schooling at least the basics of learning should have sunk in a little. However, when you read about failing schools, especially in the US, it seems like large numbers of reasonably intelligent children learn less than those with real mental disabilities in special schools.
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Without redirecting; my focus for the original post was adult learners. Those who find themselves griping about being stuck where they are and not doing anything about it. Yet, there are an abundance of offerings of free online courses that would help them advance themselves with a little effort.
I know. My point is that some are limited by never having learned how they themselves learn (best/effectively/with least frustration), and most do not know that that is a thing. Many, if not most, humans believe that everyone learns the same way. That is not true.
And also that if extended to kids, we'd really open up the learning potential of the entire population. We no longer require organizations to learn, only to test/grade/certify. For some odd reason, "organizational" learning is still considered superior, regardless of the results.
A distant cousin said to me "I don't know how to study", "I don't know how to do homework" :palm:
That was an eye opening moment. I tried to teach him - but not knowing how to learn was his struggle.
You can't assume people know the basics.
YES!!! This is a very real issue. In the US anyway, schools have done a very good job of turning off the natural desire of young humans to become competent. We are BORN as learning machines. Think about, a baby is diapered, fed and burped without doing a thing. WHY do they learn to recognize, talk, walk and eventually cause us grief? Because we are programmed to become competent (look up "competency" in the learning and psych literature. This is not a new concept.
With a large number of exceptions (thankfully) somehow we turn this off for large numbers of kids.
Childhood should be a time for personal exploration and making mistakes! The notion of telling a child he/she is successful just for trying is making incompetent adults (look up "learned helplessness"). Again, nothing new.
It is very pernicious and interwoven into society and is very hard to dissect. Many have tried with Multivariable techniques; but the variable set is just too poorly understood.
When I was in Switz and we were doing gear train calculations, a 35 year old woman who won a McArthur scholarship broke into tears almost every time division was involved. Very fearful of getting the answer wrong. I think I helped her.
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First day at new JOB I was told:
"Look, you will be needing to STUDY, we will supply the book(s) 'title' for you to go purchase, on your own."
"Study at home, on your own time."
That instruction, from new boss, was a beginning for my study, of machine language.
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Childhood should be a time for personal exploration and making mistakes!
Risk aversion is a consequence of a highly litigious society. At some point, people cannot afford the consequences of risk taking.
Consider the school playground. In my day™ kids would get bruises and the occasional broken bone. Today, those kids parents would sue the school for millions of dollars, resulting in the school closing the playground and keeping them indoors playing computer games.
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and then they start dying of strokes at the age of 40 because no one told them some cuts and bruises are a part of life
I was told I don't 'have the time' to study the equipment manual at work before starting on the equipment because a small procedure that was totally inadequate was partially documented by someone over the years that I suspect did not know too much about electronics. :-// times change
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Don’t EVER get an account there unless you absolutely HAVE to; I feel my IQ drop by 100 points every minute I’m there.
I personally consider TikTok malware. Not only is the content pure garbage, but the security implications of having that junk on your phone is frightening.
Even though I'm not a TikTok user, I still block all TikTok/ByteDance domains on my personal and work network.
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Education has not really caught up with modern society.
We need to reduce the time spend learning subjects that are less needed in a world with computers and the internet.
That time should be used to educate problem solving and critical thinking.
Simply doing that would solve a lot of issues.
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So what would you suggest we throw overboard in this golden age of computers and AI and all? The classics? Shakespeare? What possible relevance could that have to modren life? After all, we have computers!
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Education has not really caught up with modern society.
We need to reduce the time spend learning subjects that are less needed in a world with computers and the internet.
That time should be used to educate problem solving and critical thinking.
Simply doing that would solve a lot of issues.
So what would you suggest we throw overboard in this golden age of computers and AI and all? The classics? Shakespeare? What possible relevance could that have to modren life? After all, we have computers!
I didn't say we should throw anything overboard, just reduce things to make room for important skills that are not being taught at all.
Problem solving and critical thinking skills are needed a lot more today than they were 50 years ago because the decisions of a single person now have a lot more power to affect others.
Technology multiplies the reach of a people to affect more things.
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Childhood should be a time for personal exploration and making mistakes!
Risk aversion is a consequence of a highly litigious society. At some point, people cannot afford the consequences of risk taking.
Consider the school playground. In my day™ kids would get bruises and the occasional broken bone. Today, those kids parents would sue the school for millions of dollars, resulting in the school closing the playground and keeping them indoors playing computer games.
Those are two separate, but important, issues. Yes, things have become more litigious, and that affects a lot about the adult world. However, this wouldn't be too destructive without a generation brought up so coddled they have not experienced much of life, and are very unprepared for it. Hearing 20 year olds talking about "the adults" in a non-ironic way shocked me when I first heard it. People like Jonathan Haidt have documented how we have a generation entering the workforce who are years behind on common markers of reaching adulthood, both positive and negative. When did they earn their first pay packet? When did they first apply for a driving licence? When did they have their first alcohol? When did they have their first sex? In earlier life there are other markers of late maturation, like when were they first allowed to go to school on their own? As the number of years in full time education have increased, so we seem to have delayed every aspect of maturing our young.
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Problem solving and critical thinking skills are needed a lot more today than they were 50 years ago
and because of the availability of information but scarcity of vetted information.
We now live in a neverending flood of information. Instead of just drowning in it, we need to learn how to control its effects on ourselves. Consciously filtering incoming information –– as opposed to letting your emotions or preconceptions filter it, what is what we intuitively and automatically do do –– is a skill we need to help kids start developing early: the earlier, the better. Adults, too.
Similarly, searching and looking up information and assessing its veracity is paramount: when you can do that, and know how you yourself learn, there are very few limits left.
The value of practical experience is increasing, because the theoretical knowledge is easier to obtain. In my opinion, kids should be exposed to all sorts of work, from early on. Even adults should be encouraged to try different things, maybe a single day doing something completely different. You do not truly know what kind of work you actually like and prefer, before you try. Many people will have several careers during their lifetime, too; things just change too fast nowadays for not to.
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Many people will have several careers during their lifetime, too; things just change too fast nowadays for not to.
The problem with multiple careers is that some banks and landlords might see that as too unstable to offer loans or rental housing.
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lack of motivation, too much socila media and videos, bad examples in life.
j
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Many people will have several careers during their lifetime, too; things just change too fast nowadays for not to.
The problem with multiple careers is that some banks and landlords might see that as too unstable to offer loans or rental housing.
I'm not sure how true that is for banks. In my experience, they typically want your last 3 months worth of payslips and bank statements. I've never been ask about my career history when applying for a mortgage. Rentals might be different, but that's a whole different matter. I haven't rented a place for almost 20 years.
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I've never been ask about my career history when applying for a mortgage. Rentals might be different, but that's a whole different matter. I haven't rented a place for almost 20 years.
Heh; where I live, landlords will be happy if you can just hold down a job, period (and aren't a tweaker*).
* a methamphetamine user
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Many people will have several careers during their lifetime, too; things just change too fast nowadays for not to.
The problem with multiple careers is that some banks and landlords might see that as too unstable to offer loans or rental housing.
I'm not sure how true that is for banks. In my experience, they typically want your last 3 months worth of payslips and bank statements. I've never been ask about my career history when applying for a mortgage. Rentals might be different, but that's a whole different matter. I haven't rented a place for almost 20 years.
If the banks were interested in your career path, and its prospects, a LOT of people would have trouble getting loans. They just want evidence that you have a stable income right now. They aren't fortune tellers, and as long as there are no clear signs this income won't remain stable, like your job for the last few months has been putting together something that is about to end, they are OK. E.G. I suspect they might not have been happy with a French person's last few months pay slips last spring, when their work was entirely dependent on the 2024 Olympics.
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Learning and qualifications are vital to get a good job.
The qualifications get you on the first rung of the ladder.
Once in a job you can push hard to get on by learning as much as you can in the job.
Even if you don't like the job that much, a year or two in it will give you something for your CV towards a better job later.
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The typical curriculum of science, maths, reading/language etc is still essential as it bridges towards higher education. If you skip during high development years or introduce other challenges it has a compounding negative effect.
I'd be fine with life skills taught at an early age. I see many people struggle with basic concepts such as avoiding vices, budgeting/saving, parenting, interviews, respect, critical thinking etc.
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There are always going to be Bludgers in the world who want to blame everyone else for their present station in life.
How do we score are our kids efforts in raising our Grandkids?
Mine rate between 5-8 out of 10 based on:
To much Screen time ....to give the parents a break.
To much junk food....to save cooking time.
Not enough one on one with the kids playing catching ball, football, cricket , park time etc.
But what can I say!
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Why do engineers overlook the fundamentals?
Here's some excuses and I don't see a remedy. Good luck straightening things out :-DD
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I believe floobs my post was about fundamentals, at least in terms of education. But you're right, make sure your boys are in order first, educate second.
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A problem is a common education system that must accommodate both the dim and bright bulbs of society, that bell curve.
The low IQ people get constant fail experiences and their self-esteem suffers, they dislike school. The smart, high IQ people get bored and waste learning opportunities.
Teachers and schools have quotas to meet and somehow pass the herd through the system, despite students being ranked according to a number, their marks. Students with behaviour issues can upset entire classes.
How can you educate within a common system where there is such a huge disparity?
Then, many years later SURPRISE look who is in charge of the engineers, who are the CEO's? Hint: not the bright bulbs :palm:
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Most takes in this thread are arrogant, downright ignorant and offensive.
Most people are looking around and seeing the learning opportunities available to everyone, opportunities that they have taken or would have taken if they were available when they were younger, and thinking that it applies to everyone, or even most people. That is pure bunk.
You are where you are because of others. Your parents. Your extended family. Your environment. Your family's resources. Your family's race. Random people who have entered into your life (teachers, strangers, coworkers, teammate, fellow students...). All of that can be summed up in one word: Luck.
If your parents did not model hard work and encourage you to learn and better yourself, you are SOL. No matter how much money society spends on you, no matter how much free education is available just a click away, you are not going to make use of it because you are neither aware of its value nor have the skills to make use of it.
No matter how much your parents love and encourage you, if they have no resources, food is not a daily thing in your household growing up, your neighborhood is crap, your school has 1 computer for the whole school and teachers that are just biding time to retirement, your principal daily struggle as a kid is not to get wrapped up in a gang or picked up by police just because, you are SOL.
No matter how much your parents encourage you, no matter how many top 5% of society resources they can lavish on you, if you are born with a 75 IQ, you are SOL.
I will not even talk about your health, being born with a disability, a childhood injury...
All the above are life stories of people I personally know.
On the other hand, if your parents, even if that's a poor overworked single mother, can model the value of hard work, encourage education and self-betterment, society provides you opportunity in the form of well-funded schools, free college, free online education, and you are reasonably intelligent and healthy, then and only then, your lack of success is all on you.
Here's the honest truth of my life: The smartest thing I did in my life was choosing who my parents were. They did help me a lot in getting where I am in life, but much more importantly, they gave me the skills and values that allowed me to get where I am.
If you are thinking that "choosing who my parents were" is a ludicrous statement, I completely agree with you. My point is that who my parents were was a matter of luck and nothing else. I was not owed two educated, successful, incredibly intelligent, unbelievably loving, upper middleclass parents who stayed married to each other till their deaths in old age. That I had parents like that is my good fortune and all I have flows from that.
Similarly, the person who has not made it in life despite all that the society has had to offer them, may have had the exact opposite luck. Their failure is just like my success, a matter of luck.