Things people say that make you facepalm.

[XOIIO]

This is something that my grandmother has said a lot, and my mother a couple times (neither that old):

"You should turn your computer off at night, all that electromagnetic radiation isn't good for you"

She's not a total moron when it comes to electronics and how they work, but really 

I've explained several times that it will have basically no effect, and that electronics don't really leak "electromagnetic radiation", at least in any meaningful amount.

She still doesn't seem to get it though  Funny thing is she sleeps with a cell phone right beside her head.

This is my PC by the way: (slightly too big to attach)



 It's got a nice thick aluminum case all around except the front and back, would be pretty tough for anything to escape out of there.


Or who knows, maybe I am cooking myself of frying my brain 

 

Off topic: dell really can make a nice case  Whenever I have a job and save to build a good gaming rig, I'm going to convert this from BTX to ATX, and keep the case. One or two small dings but the brushed aluminum is so nice. I'm going to make a controller for the LED's as well so that I can still use them. Would be nice to have them controllable through a PC gui as well but that's beyond my knowledge/skill.

[opty]

Here is my favorite: "Apple processors and components are made on the same production line as all other; it's just that Apple takes the best quality ones and all the remaining parts are sold as PCs." Again from a fairly qualified person. (and I had the impression she did believe what she was saying).

Opty

[XOIIO]

Here is my favorite: "Apple processors and components are made on the same production line as all other; it's just that Apple takes the best quality ones and all the remaining parts are sold as PCs." Again from a fairly qualified person. (and I had the impression she did believe what she was saying).

Opty

Lol, what???

[Psi]

gf/wife:  Can you take out the rubbish"

Man: Yes

Next day..

gf/wife: Why didnt you take out the rubbish like i asked"

Man: You asked if i could, I'm physically able to take the rubbish out, so i said yes.

[T3sl4co1l]

The expression "same difference" when there is clearly only one comparison being made.  What is meant is "same thing" or "no difference".

There are situations where it is valid: comparing A and B, or C and D -- "same difference".  Most people don't make note of this though.

Tim

[T3sl4co1l]

gf/wife:  Can you take out the rubbish"

Man: Yes

Next day..

gf/wife: Why didnt you take out the rubbish like i asked"

Man: You asked if i could, I'm physically able to take the rubbish out, so i said yes.

The programmer's wife asked him to go to the store: "get a half gallon of milk, and if they have eggs, get a half dozen."  He returned with six jugs of milk.

Tim

[kolonelkadat]

"once macs takeover the pc market, there will be no more viruses."

[brabus]

Someone said "Facepalm"?

Do we want to start talking about cars, engines & co.? 

[abaxas]

I always laugh when people think most of the world's computers use intel/x86/windows.

Total facepalm.

[AlfBaz]

"I believe..."

[dannyf]

that electronics don't really leak "electromagnetic radiation", at least in any meaningful amount.

That's questionable and empirical untrue many times.

It's got a nice thick aluminum case all around except the front and back, would be pretty tough for anything to escape out of there.

Aluminum shielding isn't that great in shielding you away from "electromagnetic radiation".

[dannyf]

She's not a total moron when it comes to electronics and how they work, but really 

That attitude makes me "facepalm". Some people think that if they have a fancy title or a fancy degree from a fancy school, they know everything they are talking about and everyone else who disagrees with them is a moron.

It is helpful for those people to hold a more humble view of themselves.

[justanothercanuck]

It's got a nice thick aluminum case all around except the front and back, would be pretty tough for anything to escape out of there.

It would leak less if you have spread spectrum turned on in the BIOS.  Personally I turn it off, screw EMI compliance. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spread_spectrum

[PA0PBZ]

It would leak less if you have spread spectrum turned on in the BIOS.

 

[XOIIO]

It's got a nice thick aluminum case all around except the front and back, would be pretty tough for anything to escape out of there.

It would leak less if you have spread spectrum turned on in the BIOS.  Personally I turn it off, screw EMI compliance. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spread_spectrum

Yeah, with a metal case like this I can have an EMP cannon from all that radiation!

[sunnyhighway]

gf/wife:  Can you take out the rubbish"

Man: Yes

Next day..

gf/wife: Why didnt you take out the rubbish like i asked"

Man: You asked if i could, I'm physically able to take the rubbish out, so i said yes.

gf/wife wised up a bit.


gf/wife:  Will you take out the rubbish"

Man: Yes

Next day..

gf/wife: Why didnt you take out the rubbish like i asked"

Man: You asked if I will take out the rubbish. Well, I will.... some day......

[XOIIO]

gf/wife:  Can you take out the rubbish"

Man: Yes

Next day..

gf/wife: Why didnt you take out the rubbish like i asked"

Man: You asked if i could, I'm physically able to take the rubbish out, so i said yes.

gf/wife wised up a bit.


gf/wife:  Will you take out the rubbish"

Man: Yes

Next day..

gf/wife: Why didnt you take out the rubbish like i asked"

Man: You asked if I will take out the rubbish. Well, I will.... some day......

gf/wife asks "Will you take out the rubbish this evening?"

Man: Sure

later that day...

gf/wife: It's night time, why didn't you take out the trash this evening?

Man: What is evening? Time is an abstract construction of man.

[EEVblog]

The expression "same difference" when there is clearly only one comparison being made.  What is meant is "same thing" or "no difference".
There are situations where it is valid: comparing A and B, or C and D -- "same difference".  Most people don't make note of this though.

You do realise it's slang right?
Gets shortened to"Same diff" here in oz.

[retrolefty]

I always laugh when people think most of the world's computers use intel/x86/windows.

Total facepalm.

 I suspect most do, if you mean higher percentage then all other PC configurations?

[vk6zgo]

that electronics don't really leak "electromagnetic radiation", at least in any meaningful amount.

That's questionable and empirical untrue many times.

It's got a nice thick aluminum case all around except the front and back, would be pretty tough for anything to escape out of there.

Aluminum shielding isn't that great in shielding you away from "electromagnetic radiation".

Actually,if it is done properly,it is very good,indeed!

[electronics man]

my mum thinks electricity is wasted if something is plugged into the mains but the switch on the switch is off (in other words electrisaty can flow through an open switch) 

[EEVblog]

I regards to this Solar Roadways rubbish:
"They also said the same thing about *insert iconic invention here*"
As if every idea automatically has equal validity in succeeding if just given the chance 

[EEVblog]

"As a Christian... blah blah"
As if believing in some laughably demonstrably false ancient fairytale based upon the accidental location of your birth country gives you some form of extra credibility in an argument...

[jolshefsky]

  too many!

The broadest complaint I have of this nature is when one claims it's somehow deficient of me to demand experimental evidence proving a claimed definitive beneficial effect. It's worse when there is conclusive experimental evidence that something does not work yet I'm confronted with someone who believes it does. Case in point: homeopathy.

A close (and closely related) second place is the lack of understanding of logical argument and logical fallacies. I'm merely a novice at it, and I find myself being handily in the top 10-percentile when dealing with the general public. Perhaps it's an American thing, but if there was one thing I wish were heavily taught in primary schooling, it's this.

[Marco]

That's that guy on here who claims to have mathematical proof of God... When I asked him about he claimed to be a maths teacher 

Reminds me of Christopher Langan, smart people can be exceptionally stupid.

[c4757p]

my mum thinks electricity is wasted if something is plugged into the mains but the switch on the switch is off (in other words electrisaty can flow through an open switch)

Well, this is true of devices with a soft power switch. Can you really expect a random dude's mum to know the difference?

[bwat]

A close (and closely related) second place is the lack of understanding of logical argument and logical fallacies. I'm merely a novice at it, and I find myself being handily in the top 10-percentile when dealing with the general public. Perhaps it's an American thing, but if there was one thing I wish were heavily taught in primary schooling, it's this.

There was a time when it was an integral part of the Western schooling tradition which was called the trivium: grammatica, rhetorica, dialectica. Of course all this went out of the window when the working classes formed the bulk of the schools.

Have you read Ad Herennium? It's a great little book, it'll fit in your jacket pocket and give you advice on arguing for or against anything.

[AndyC_772]

The broadest complaint I have of this nature is when one claims it's somehow deficient of me to demand experimental evidence proving a claimed definitive beneficial effect. It's worse when there is conclusive experimental evidence that something does not work yet I'm confronted with someone who believes it does. Case in point: homeopathy.

Worse still, IMHO - people who claim to believe in something for which they can provide no evidence, and yet categorically state that nothing will ever change their minds.

I specifically remember this one from a discussion about the alleged harmful effects of wi-fi radiation. Somebody (whose name I forget, so for the sake of argument I'll go with "the Idiot") claimed that a neighbour's wi-fi was stopping him sleeping, giving him headaches or such - and that nothing would ever convince him otherwise.

The only possible conclusions from this are that either:

a) the Idiot is in possession of some solid, incontrovertible piece of evidence that he's correct, but refuses to share it for some reason, or

b) he doesn't base his opinions on objective evidence at all, and therefore any attempt to inform, educate or placate him is a complete waste of time.

I'm inclined to believe it's (b), though obviously I'm prepared to believe (a) if presented with the evidence.

[bwat]

Worse still, IMHO - people who claim to believe in something for which they can provide no evidence, and yet categorically state that nothing will ever change their minds.

There's a difference between belief and knowledge: knowledge is justified belief. You shouldn't really confuse someones claim that the believe something with them claiming knowledge.

b) he doesn't base his opinions on objective evidence at all,

You said he claims to believe, he needs no evidence with belief.

and therefore any attempt to inform, educate or placate him is a complete waste of time.

It always is. Two different individuals, two different epistemological stances. I wouldn't bother if I were you. Too much frustration all round.

[mcinque]

"Did you ever tried with homeopathy?" 

[TheBorg]

When people make fun of my computer and it's graphics or processing capability because it's a Mac.

Like
"Dude, your computer won't run that game at max settings at 60fps, cause it's a Mac!"

No, my computer won't run that game at max because it's six years old and a laptop.

[AndyC_772]

Worse still, IMHO - people who claim to believe in something for which they can provide no evidence, and yet categorically state that nothing will ever change their minds.

There's a difference between belief and knowledge: knowledge is justified belief. You shouldn't really confuse someones claim that the believe something with them claiming knowledge.

It's the refusal to accept evidence that frustrates me. Belief based on evidence has been so universally vindicated - the whole of science is built upon it - that to do otherwise is idiotic. Or at the very least, worthy of a facepalm.

If a person believes something for which there is no evidence one way or the other, then that's fair enough.

If a person believes something for which there is apparently contradictory evidence, then that may be fair enough too. Or they may just not be very good at telling the difference between good evidence and bad evidence.

If, that person believes something despite all the evidence being to the contrary, then I think the use of the word 'idiot' is entirely justified.

[bwat]

If a person believes something for which there is apparently contradictory evidence, then that may be fair enough too.

Actually, I've done a quick bit of browsing to make sure I remembered all this belief and knowledge stuff correctly and it turns out the very thing you bring up seems to be the major complaint against the platonic definition I gave earlier. It seems all is not as clear-cut as I was led to believe. Reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Gettier.

[What_NZ]

Just about everything Computer Overclockers say. I just don't see any significant advantages for all the mucking around.
I can only think they must be a part of the "I want, I want, I want more and I want it now" generation.

[c4757p]

Just about everything Computer Overclockers say. I just don't see any significant advantages for all the mucking around.
I can only think they must be a part of the "I want, I want, I want more and I want it now" generation.

No, that generation is just complaining CPUs aren't faster already. The overclockers are actually doing something about it - you might call it a hobby, like that 'electronics' thing many of us here do in our spare time.

[xygor]

He was driving at a high rate of speed.

Our new model is a quantum leap forward.

Celebrating the start of the new millennium on Jan 1, 2000.

[JoeO]

I like it when an atheist says "God Damn it".

[Macbeth]

Just about everything Computer Overclockers say. I just don't see any significant advantages for all the mucking around.
I can only think they must be a part of the "I want, I want, I want more and I want it now" generation.

You know, I have been known to squeeze the best from my hardware, overclocking, etc. Sharing results online using 3DMark, etc. Such online tools allow you to test if your setup is in peak condition, or better. Indeed using such tools found me a sick GFX card that when I reflashed got right in the top end of the normal range. I would otherwise not have known why my FPS was so shit for a high end NVidia card. I do this despite rarely playing the games that demand such power.

Enthusiasts doing scientific tests and benchmarks of PSU's, CPU's, HDD's, etc is no different than hobbyist metrologist fetishists getting that perfect accurate DMM with 7 1/2 digits and spending insane money for that kind of accuracy, but ends up using it at best to check the fuse in the kitchen toaster. 

[electronics man]

my mum thinks electricity is wasted if something is plugged into the mains but the switch on the switch is off (in other words electrisaty can flow through an open switch)

Well, this is true of devices with a soft power switch. Can you really expect a random dude's mum to know the difference?

in the uk if you were not aware we have switches on our mains sockets and thats what i was talking about

[Macbeth]

I like it when an atheist says "God Damn it".

I always like to come up with a neutral or FSM version, but then I remember that using the LORDs name in vain is blasphemy, and so I find "Jesus H Christ", "God Damn", "Jesus FUCK!", "FUCKING HELL", etc. perfectly acceptable as an atheist.

God Damn the Pusher Man - Steppenwolf

[echen1024]

Just about everything Computer Overclockers say. I just don't see any significant advantages for all the mucking around.
I can only think they must be a part of the "I want, I want, I want more and I want it now" generation.

No, that generation is just complaining CPUs aren't faster already. The overclockers are actually doing something about it - you might call it a hobby, like that 'electronics' thing many of us here do in our spare time.

Most overclockers do it for the thrill. I have a mild OC on my PC, (4.2GHz), and I know some people who push their computers up to 5+ for kicks, but mostly we just do it for fun.

[justanothercanuck]

Overclocking isn't really what it used to be back in the early days though.  I guess people finally realized that what they want is more cores to process threads instead of getting high clock speeds and not seeing a vast speedup (ie: running a 2mhz chip at 4mhz, vs running a 3ghz chip at 4ghz).

Still waiting for that 80 core Intel to come out. 

[abaxas]

I always laugh when people think most of the world's computers use intel/x86/windows.

Total facepalm.

 I suspect most do, if you mean higher percentage then all other PC configurations?

In terms of the number of computers in the world, the PC barely is a very very (maybe another very) small part of it. More arm based computers are sold ever 3 months than x86 PCS have ever been made. Then add in all the microcontrollers, routers, other embedded stuff and the PC sinks far into the distance.

[dannyf]

In terms of the number of computers in the world, the PC barely is a very very (maybe another very) small part of it.

The right answer depends on how you define "computres".

More arm based computers are sold ever 3 months than x86 PCS have ever been made.

That's like comparing apples to oranges.

[c4757p]

I like it when an atheist says "God Damn it".

Old habit. I was raised Catholic and the swears I'm used to are just more satisfying

in the uk if you were not aware we have switches on our mains sockets and thats what i was talking about

Nope, I totally forgot. I'd still say you can't expect her to know the difference.

[EEVblog]

I specifically remember this one from a discussion about the alleged harmful effects of wi-fi radiation. Somebody (whose name I forget, so for the sake of argument I'll go with "the Idiot") claimed that a neighbour's wi-fi was stopping him sleeping, giving him headaches or such - and that nothing would ever convince him otherwise.

The thing is, the WiFi router does stop him sleeping. Although it's not the WiFi signal that's doing it, you can secretly switch if off it's still be a problem
Same way homeopathy can actually work.

[pickle9000]

My brothers wife has one of these.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Digital-LCD-Screen-Electromagnetic-Radiation-Detector-Meter-Dosimeter-TM-/111334083976?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19ec074d88

So no more microwave, stereo, and so on you get the picture. My brother asks me to explain some things to her and hey not my problem. I am thankful she is in another province  . And yes she is religious and a health food nut. 

[vk6zgo]

A close (and closely related) second place is the lack of understanding of logical argument and logical fallacies. I'm merely a novice at it, and I find myself being handily in the top 10-percentile when dealing with the general public. Perhaps it's an American thing, but if there was one thing I wish were heavily taught in primary schooling, it's this.

There was a time when it was an integral part of the Western schooling tradition which was called the trivium: grammatica, rhetorica, dialectica. Of course all this went out of the window when the working classes formed the bulk of the schools.

Have you read Ad Herennium? It's a great little book, it'll fit in your jacket pocket and give you advice on arguing for or against anything.

Well,pardon us "lower orders" for existing!

I wonder how effective such subjects were--------the "upper classes" in the main,were not a great repository of logical thought.

[Psi]

Just about everything Computer Overclockers say. I just don't see any significant advantages for all the mucking around.
I can only think they must be a part of the "I want, I want, I want more and I want it now" generation.

No, that generation is just complaining CPUs aren't faster already. The overclockers are actually doing something about it - you might call it a hobby, like that 'electronics' thing many of us here do in our spare time.

Most overclockers do it for the thrill. I have a mild OC on my PC, (4.2GHz), and I know some people who push their computers up to 5+ for kicks, but mostly we just do it for fun.

Yeah, quite a bit of it is just for fun.
My main workstation is a core2 Q6600 which is running at 3.2Ghz (stock freq is 2.4ghz)  The extra 800mhz does make it noticeable faster doing cpu intensive tasks.
But as you say, you have to look for the difference, it doesn't jump out at you.
What did make me grin at the time was looking at the price of the official 3.2ghz version of my chip. It was 5x the price!

It was a bit different back in the days of old FPS games like Doom/Quake where CPU's were being pushed to the max with the latest games (before we had 3D gfx cards).
Even a small overclock of say 15% could increase your frame rate from 18 to 25fps which was a massive difference in playability, especially for online play.

[bwat]

I wonder how effective such subjects were

It's probably a question of "are" and not "were".  These subjects are still part of the education of the political elite. You'll probably not have to look to far to see evidence of this in your country.

the "upper classes" in the main,were not a great repository of logical thought.

Bertrand Russel, one of the great names in mathematical logic, was the son of a viscount. Ada Lovelace, the world's first computer programmer, was the daughter of a Baron. That's just off the top of my head and restricting myself to to the upper classes. If I were to include the middle classes then I would be here all day swinging like a pendulum between wikipedia and the draft of this reply. The working classes don't get going it seems until after the first world war.

[peter.mitchell]

Just about everything Computer Overclockers say. I just don't see any significant advantages for all the mucking around.
I can only think they must be a part of the "I want, I want, I want more and I want it now" generation.

No, that generation is just complaining CPUs aren't faster already. The overclockers are actually doing something about it - you might call it a hobby, like that 'electronics' thing many of us here do in our spare time.

Most overclockers do it for the thrill. I have a mild OC on my PC, (4.2GHz), and I know some people who push their computers up to 5+ for kicks, but mostly we just do it for fun.

Yeah, quite a bit of it is just for fun.
My main workstation is a core2 Q6600 which is running at 3.2Ghz (stock freq is 2.4ghz)  The extra 800mhz does make it noticeable faster doing cpu intensive tasks.
But as you say, you have to look for the difference, it doesn't jump out at you.
What did make me grin at the time was looking at the price of the official 3.2ghz version of my chip. It was 5x the price!

It was a bit different back in the days of old FPS games like Doom/Quake where CPU's were being pushed to the max with the latest games (before we had 3D gfx cards).
Even a small overclock of say 15% could increase your frame rate from 18 to 25fps which was a massive difference in playability, especially for online play.

A lot of manufacturers sponsor overclocking and related events as a way to differentiate themselves from the others in their industry, or to show how solid their products are - i mean "look at this card, with just some liquid nitrogen and a bit more juice it can run at 2x the speed, it's designed and manufactured to stand up to the toughest standards!"

Then there is the overclocking to get better value for money, or "more for less", buy a cheap chip or a cheap card, give it a bit more juice and run it at a higher clock speed and get the same performance at a model that costs 4x as much? why not?

Then there are the people who just it for the fun/the challenge - a true hobby.

Sometimes, the first and the last reason cross over, in the case of things like this;
http://www.techpowerup.com/202759/evga-and-k-ngp-n-break-new-world-record-with-first-true-2ghz-on-gtx-780-ti.html (you might have seen the second name mentioned in the article on the forum before, with his keithly repairs or his diy calibrator project or much more - certainly a very different person to the kind of person that What_NZ mentions)

[bwat]

More arm based computers are sold ever 3 months than x86 PCS have ever been made.

That's like comparing apples to oranges.

Is it though? I can't walk down the street and avoid seeing people using their ARM computers to send and receive email, browse the web, process images, etc. These are programmable computers which in many cases are running multi-user multi-tasking operating systems with all the usual abstractions: file systems, virtual memory, POSIX interface, etc.

[Fsck]

Just about everything Computer Overclockers say. I just don't see any significant advantages for all the mucking around.
I can only think they must be a part of the "I want, I want, I want more and I want it now" generation.

for some of us, it increases platform longevity. I have an i7 920 overclocked from 2.66GHz to 4.2GHz bought in 2009 as my main desktop. 5 years later, it's starting to show its age and forcing me to upgrade. that ~57% overclock did increase performance significantly for me and is probably the sole reason I can live with it 5 years later.

[opty]

I specifically remember this one from a discussion about the alleged harmful effects of wi-fi radiation. Somebody (whose name I forget, so for the sake of argument I'll go with "the Idiot") claimed that a neighbour's wi-fi was stopping him sleeping, giving him headaches or such - and that nothing would ever convince him otherwise.

The thing is, the WiFi router does stop him sleeping. Although it's not the WiFi signal that's doing it, you can secretly switch if off it's still be a problem
Same way homeopathy can actually work.

It gets worse, if he did find out the WiFi was actually off the neighbour would probably claim 'long lasting effects'

[peter.mitchell]

"Did you ever tried with homeopathy?" 

In the same way homeopathic remedies only have the memories of active ingredients transferred to the water, homeopaths don't have brains, only brain water with memories of intelligence....

[vk6zgo]

I wonder how effective such subjects were

It's probably a question of "are" and not "were".  These subjects are still part of the education of the political elite. You'll probably not have to look to far to see evidence of this in your country.

the "upper classes" in the main,were not a great repository of logical thought.

Bertrand Russel, one of the great names in mathematical logic, was the son of a viscount. Ada Lovelace,
the world's first computer programmer, was the daughter of a Baron. That's just off the top of my head, and restricting myself to to the upper classes. If I were to include the middle classes then I would be here all day swinging like a pendulum between wikipedia and the draft of this reply. The working classes don't get going it seems until after the first world war.

It all depends upon what you are searching for.
A bit of Googling,also brings up these delights:-

Sir Oswald Ernald Mosley, 6th Baronet of Ancoats

John Amery,

Lord Lucan

Kim Philby

William Forbes-Sempill

None of these gentlemen seemed to apply much logic,ethics,or even plain commonsense to their life decisions.

Then there were some who were just plain loony,such as:-

William John Cavendish-Scott-Bentinck, 5th Duke of Portland,though he doesn't really count,as he was home-schooled.

[abaxas]

More arm based computers are sold ever 3 months than x86 PCS have ever been made.

That's like comparing apples to oranges.

Is it though? I can't walk down the street and avoid seeing people using their ARM computers to send and receive email, browse the web, process images, etc. These are programmable computers which in many cases are running multi-user multi-tasking operating systems with all the usual abstractions: file systems, virtual memory, POSIX interface, etc.

I think it is like comparing apples to oranges. Yes, they are both computers of a fashion. As are apples and oranges both fruit. Similar in many respects but not the same and not interchangable unless you are just hungry.

A computer is a computer, the definition does not contain any dimensions. Your washing machine probably has a more powerful computer than the one that put people on the moon.

[bwat]

the "upper classes" in the main,were not a great repository of logical thought.

Bertrand Russel, one of the great names in mathematical logic, was the son of a viscount. Ada Lovelace,
the world's first computer programmer, was the daughter of a Baron. That's just off the top of my head, and restricting myself to to the upper classes. If I were to include the middle classes then I would be here all day swinging like a pendulum between wikipedia and the draft of this reply. The working classes don't get going it seems until after the first world war.

It all depends upon what you are searching for.
A bit of Googling,also brings up these delights:-

Sir Oswald Ernald Mosley, 6th Baronet of Ancoats

John Amery,

Lord Lucan

Kim Philby

William Forbes-Sempill

None of these gentlemen seemed to apply much logic, ...

Our definitions of logic seem to differ. Logic is concerned with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration. You don't know how these people reasoned; you know only of their actions. Their reasoning may very well have been sound; they may have been quite logical thinkers.

... ethics,or even plain commonsense to their life decisions.

Ethics and common sense have nothing to do with logic which was the attribute you mentioned in your claim about the upper classes.

Then there were some who were just plain loony,such as:-

William John Cavendish-Scott-Bentinck, 5th Duke of Portland,though he doesn't really count,as he was home-schooled.

I think mental health is something we shouldn't confuse with logic either.

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about the upper classes and I say this as someone who was raised in a constitutional monarchy in a background of first world poverty. The simple fact of the matter is that the upper classes have always had access to first rate education. 

[dannyf]

A computer is a computer, the definition does not contain any dimensions.

Then the discussion can get quite wildly:

any human being is a computer - check out the origin of "computer" the word;

any opamp is a computer - it calculates the output based on inputs;

any transistor / mosfet is a computer - the output is "calculated" or determined by input;

any resistor is a computer - it computes the linear multiples of voltage / current input;

any capacitor is a computer - it computes the first order derivative;

any inductor is a computer - it too computes the first order derivative;

...

Beat any of that with your ARM computers,

[vk6zgo]

the "upper classes" in the main,were not a great repository of logical thought.

Bertrand Russel, one of the great names in mathematical logic, was the son of a viscount. Ada Lovelace,
the world's first computer programmer, was the daughter of a Baron. That's just off the top of my head, and restricting myself to to the upper classes. If I were to include the middle classes then I would be here all day swinging like a pendulum between wikipedia and the draft of this reply. The working classes don't get going it seems until after the first world war.

It all depends upon what you are searching for.
A bit of Googling,also brings up these delights:-

Sir Oswald Ernald Mosley, 6th Baronet of Ancoats

John Amery,

Lord Lucan

Kim Philby

William Forbes-Sempill

None of these gentlemen seemed to apply much logic, ...

Our definitions of logic seem to differ. Logic is concerned with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration. You don't know how these people reasoned; you know only of their actions. Their reasoning may very well have been sound; they may have been quite logical thinkers.

... ethics,or even plain commonsense to their life decisions.

Ethics and common sense have nothing to do with logic which was the attribute you mentioned in your claim about the upper classes.

Then there were some who were just plain loony,such as:-

William John Cavendish-Scott-Bentinck, 5th Duke of Portland,though he doesn't really count,as he was home-schooled.

I think mental health is something we shouldn't confuse with logic either.

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about the upper classes and I say this as someone who was raised in a constitutional monarchy in a background of first world poverty. The simple fact of the matter is that the upper classes have always had access to first rate education.

Very valid point,although logical thinking doesn't seem to fit with the outcomes in these gentlemen's lives..

"You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about the upper classes"
Is that a logically derived conclusion,or is it just  a hunch?

"The simple fact of the matter is that the upper classes have always had access to first rate education."

" Access to education + presence of students =absorption of that education"doesn't look like a valid logical statement,although it may be highly probable

[bwat]

Very valid point,although logical thinking doesn't seem to fit with the outcomes in these gentlemen's lives..

Hmmmm. To quote Simon:

Any rational decision may be viewed as a conclusion reached from certain premises... The behaviour of a rational person can be controlled, therefore, if the value and factual premises upon which he bases his decisions are specified for him.

We just don't know what their value and factual premises were. Plenty of right thinking individuals have accepted terrible actions performed in their name because propaganda specified their value and factual premises.

"You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about the upper classes"
Is that a logically derived conclusion,or is it just  a hunch?

A hunch, now am I wrong Of course I'm reading my own prejudices into your words. I'm not here to give you grief. I apologise if I have misread and been harsh.

"The simple fact of the matter is that the upper classes have always had access to first rate education."

" Access to education + presence of students =absorption of that education"doesn't look like a valid logical statement,although it may be highly probable

My experience seems to show that enough of them are listening, learning, and applying. The dumbing down of educational standards for the children of the general populace makes it look like not much will change either.

[dannyf]

the upper classes have always had access to first rate education.

Spot on. Education is the most powerful equalizer one can find.

That's precisely why some elitists / politicians have so effectively en-slaved a large portion of our society in perpetuity by working with the teachers' unions to deprive poor kids of a first rate education they so deserve.

[mcinque]

In the same way homeopathic remedies only have the memories of active ingredients transferred to the water, homeopaths don't have brains, only brain water with memories of intelligence....

[T3sl4co1l]

Simple matter of fact: those who possess wealth, without having to produce the sheer labor necessary for day-to-day survival, can spend their days in tasks other than labor.

The poor classes are -- or intuitively, should be -- defined by their ability (physical and financial) to partake of pursuits other than labor.

Poverty has been falling steadily throughout history, and it should be no surprise, then, that a vast number of people are now able to spend their time in such activities -- such is the vastness of the internet, for only one example.

That doesn't mean that everyone is an instant genius.  There is certainly more availability to those predisposed to be intelligent.  But also the equal availability of gross and simple activities (look at how much of the internet is cat pictures and porn..).   Throughout history, things probably haven't changed as much intellectually as economically; those in high places are generally there for a reason, and examples of retardation and inbreeding are probably more incidental than typical.  Like it or not, intelligence and wealth both tend to run in the family, even if they are somewhat loosely coupled.

Tim

[sacherjj]

Simple matter of fact: those who possess wealth, without having to produce the sheer labor necessary for day-to-day survival, can spend their days in tasks other than labor.

The poor classes are -- or intuitively, should be -- defined by their ability (physical and financial) to partake of pursuits other than labor.

Poverty has been falling steadily throughout history, and it should be no surprise, then, that a vast number of people are now able to spend their time in such activities -- such is the vastness of the internet, for only one example.

That doesn't mean that everyone is an instant genius.  There is certainly more availability to those predisposed to be intelligent.  But also the equal availability of gross and simple activities (look at how much of the internet is cat pictures and porn..).   Throughout history, things probably haven't changed as much intellectually as economically; those in high places are generally there for a reason, and examples of retardation and inbreeding are probably more incidental than typical.  Like it or not, intelligence and wealth both tend to run in the family, even if they are somewhat loosely coupled.

I remember running into a problem and having to wait till next week to go to the library to search for hours in books to try to find the answer.  Now, that problem is solved in 5 minutes on Google, with an option of Text, Graphic, or Video presentation of the answer.  However, all of this vast knowledge is irrelevant, if I choose to fill my head with the latest TV program, or gossip on Facebook, or follow the latest "celebrity", instead of pursuing knowledge.  The sad thing is that many people are actually getting dumber, while knowledge is in a form that is the easiest, since the beginning of time, to both find and digest.  They are learning many things, just on topics that don't matter for any reason.

[dannyf]

The sad thing is that many people are actually getting dumber, while knowledge is in a form that is the easiest, since the beginning of time, to both find and digest.

Is that why income inequality is getting worse, justifiably so? Tell Piketty that.

[T3sl4co1l]

However, all of this vast knowledge is irrelevant, if I choose to fill my head with the latest TV program, or gossip on Facebook, or follow the latest "celebrity", instead of pursuing knowledge.

While the Internet is widely hailed as what it is: a vast reserve of worldwide knowledge -- the practical truth is, precisely because of that vastness, it is a desert.  The only way to make sense of it is to stick to your own personal corner of the web (say, electronics forums... amirite?).  As much as the Internet facilitates sharing and empathy, it also serves selfishness and violence.  Arguably, our present activities would be considered one of those positive interactions, while other circles (take one of, or some of?, the recent U.S. shootings for instance) are examples of negative interaction.

Tim

[SirNick]

Well, I don't mean to imply that I'm above it all, but...

Before you shake your head at how many folks are squandering the vast opportunity made accessible to them through education and the Internet, consider also that right now there are several pages of commiserating over how people say things based on their flawed understanding of... whatever subject happens to flare up our own pet peeve.

So.  Is this what enlightened people do with immediate access to a significant portion of mankind's combined knowledge and experience?    Complain about misconceptions regarding electromagnetic principles, or whether God exists?  Hey, I suppose even the enlightened are entitled to a little mental down-time.

[electrophiliate]

I don't know if many people are getting 'dumber' per se as a result of the internet. Those who would rather spend their time using the internet for trashy pursuits would probably be doing that in other ways without the internet, while those who would rather be spending their time at the library are now using the internet. It has also been a huge gift to people unable to physically visit libraries. I guess it could be argued that internet use can distract or split our attention and make it more shallow.

[vk6zgo]

Many years ago,various luminaries spent a lot of time bewailing the lost opportunity to use Television for Education.
My answer to that was always: "If I want to be educated,I'll go to Night School!"

I can't use that one for the Internet,as "Night schools" teaching "hard" subjects are virtually extinct,because they cost money to run,which in a mean-spirited age,is not available.

In the past,kids who didn't take full advantage of the conventional Higher Education system for various reasons,could learn complex subjects after work,in a formal classroom situation.

Learning in a non-classroom situation,such as the Internet,or Correspondence is a lot harder,without the instant feedback of a classroom.

[mhzghz]

"As a Christian... blah blah"
As if believing in some laughably demonstrably false ancient fairytale based upon the accidental location of your birth country gives you some form of extra credibility in an argument...

So pack up and leave for a country that doesn't have a cross on it's flag and stop speaking English, you know, a language from a country with a giant cross on its flag...

Come on, prove that "laughably demonstrably false ancient fairytale" is really false... You can even make one of your little videos about it...

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

One way I have heard of people proving the falsehoods written in the Bible is to try to fit pairs of all the animals in the world into a theoretical ship built to Noahs Ark dimensions.

Actually my big assumption here is that Noahs Ark is in the Bible. I haven't read that book.
 

[nctnico]

If you read a bit into history you'll find that religion is often used to control the common people and keep them as uneducated as possible.

[Monkeh]

If you read a bit into history you'll find that religion is often used to control the common people and keep them as uneducated as possible.

Not unlike government, really.

[GeoffS]

When a thread turns to religion, it's time to lock it.