Author Topic: Things that do not make economic sense  (Read 11367 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline fubar.grTopic starter

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 369
  • Country: gr
    • Fubar.gr
Things that do not make economic sense
« on: November 19, 2014, 04:56:58 pm »
Here's an example:

Practically all entry level chinese multimeters have manual ranges. I wonder, how having a big rotary switch with so many contacts is cheaper than having a simpler switch and letting an IC take care of the ranges?



And another example:

I recently saw a nice looking radio-MP3 player in an aluminium enclosure  on ebay. It was selling for just $10, shipping included!

If I wanted to make something similar myself, 10 bucks would just barely cover the cost of the enclosure alone. How can the Chinese sell stuff that cheaply?

Offline dannyf

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8221
  • Country: 00
Re: Things that do not make economic sense
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2014, 05:04:31 pm »
Quote
big rotary switch

Tear down the meter and you will know why.

Quote
radio-MP3

The key chip in those things go for cents each. typically they are a 8051 core + dma + dsp / mpn decoder and sometimes uart / gpio pins / dac and of course usb. Would have made a nice usb/uart bridge

Quote
How can the Chinese sell stuff that cheaply?

Making millions of it vs. making one or two of it;
and be willing to work harder and accept lower margins.
================================
https://dannyelectronics.wordpress.com/
 

Offline KJDS

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2442
  • Country: gb
    • my website holding page
Re: Things that do not make economic sense
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2014, 05:16:03 pm »
Wives, a cleaner and cook work out far cheaper once you factor in the divorce. :)

Offline Yago

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 651
  • Country: gb
Re: Things that do not make economic sense
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2014, 06:09:51 pm »
Wives, a cleaner and cook work out far cheaper once you factor in the divorce. :)

Oh KJDS, I fear something is missing in your life ;) :P
 

Offline SeanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16384
  • Country: za
Re: Things that do not make economic sense
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2014, 06:23:55 pm »
I fear he is speaking from experience.........
 

Offline KJDS

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2442
  • Country: gb
    • my website holding page
Re: Things that do not make economic sense
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2014, 06:30:16 pm »
Wives, a cleaner and cook work out far cheaper once you factor in the divorce. :)

Oh KJDS, I fear something is missing in your life ;) :P

Nagging?

Offline wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 17871
  • Country: lv
Re: Things that do not make economic sense
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2014, 06:32:11 pm »
I fear he is speaking from experience.........
If memory don't fail me, he is. Memory did fail me indeed, was thinking about another member.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 06:34:40 pm by wraper »
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 22436
  • Country: us
  • Expert, Analog Electronics, PCB Layout, EMC
    • Seven Transistor Labs
Re: Things that do not make economic sense
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2014, 06:32:57 pm »
Here's an example:

Practically all entry level chinese multimeters have manual ranges. I wonder, how having a big rotary switch with so many contacts is cheaper than having a simpler switch and letting an IC take care of the ranges?

The switch is made of molded plastic parts.  The case, the cam (if any) and the knob.  Any number of positions can be molded in, at no cost to the production of the molds or parts.  The contacts are spring metal on PCB, and the PCB of course can be made with any number of positions etched on it, at no added cost.

The cost of selector, case and PCB is borne by all competitors in that space (you can't have a multimeter -- at least one marketably recognizable -- without any of these three fundamental aspects), so the cost comes to materials reduction (what's the cheapest per strength resin, and how little of it can they get away with?) and BOM cost.  Saving half a cent on the non-autoranging ASIC is the clear winner, then.

And that chip, in turn, is probably something like an ICL7107 -- ancient LED/LCD display driver with analog input, with the added features of volts/amps/ohms ranges (depending on how many resistors they afforded to place around it).  Such chips have been around for decades, so basically no one is paying NRE on them, they're as cheap as the silicon they're made on.

Which is a general rule of semiconductors -- compare an IRF540 to a modern device of the same (Vds, Rds(on)) ratings; the new device has far smaller capacitances because of process optimization and miniaturization.  The die might be 1/4 the size, but the cost is the same, because just damned everybody makes those ancient parts!

Quote
I recently saw a nice looking radio-MP3 player in an aluminium enclosure  on ebay. It was selling for just $10, shipping included!

If I wanted to make something similar myself, 10 bucks would just barely cover the cost of the enclosure alone. How can the Chinese sell stuff that cheaply?

NRE: enclosure for example.  Maybe you'd spend $500 getting the 3D model machined from bulk aluminum.  Or $200 for a handful of CNC cut / bent parts.  Or between, say, $0-10 per part getting them molded (sand castings), but you still need $200+ for the machined or molded (stereolithography) pattern to start from.  Or upwards of $20,000 for a real serious die set, made of machined and polished tool steel, for pressing/punching (sheet) or molding (die cast) parts.  Now, this last method, making the dies, has per-part costs hardly above the cost of material alone, so it's the obvious winner in quantity.  But there's no freaking way you can get anywhere close to that in single quantities, even if you spend three months with a die grinder making the molds in your free time!

Supply chains: volume pricing.  In large enough quantities, parts may come in straight from the manufacturer, no distributor middle-man/men at all.  This saves usually 40% straight away (business / retail markup), plus distributor inventorying and transportation.  Though it also costs your own production's stocking overhead and all that.

Manufacturer preferred pricing.  Often, one manufacturer will attempt to sell you their alternatives to competing parts you're already using.  And they will undercut their catalog prices for you, even at moderate quantities.  One example I've seen: DAQ board, 12 bit 80MSa/s ADC, two channels, migrating to four.  Old part: National, 3.3V CMOS, dual, 0.8W, like $40 in 100s.  Proposed alternative: Analog Devices, 1.8V CMOS, quad, 0.3W, like $37 in 100s.  Digikey stock price was something like $60 each -- still a win over using two of the old device, but the new price (which was quoted through Arrow I believe) was unequivocally better, besides the other gains like power dissipation (not that that was a concern on this project, but it still helps with thermal management and routing).

Tim
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 06:35:02 pm by T3sl4co1l »
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 

n45048

  • Guest
Re: Things that do not make economic sense
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2014, 07:11:53 pm »
'Climate Change'   ;D

Sorry, I had to go there, the opening was perfect. Now, back to electronics.
 

Offline rollatorwieltje

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 571
  • Country: nl
  • I brick your boards.
Re: Things that do not make economic sense
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2014, 10:37:56 pm »
I have the impression that China buys obsolete production lines for scrap value and basically completely rebuilds those "obsolete" factories as cheap as possible.

Look at those aluminium enclosures for example. Usually the quality of extrusion isn't very good, it looks like it was made on a 20 year old machine. But it doesn't really matter for that application, nobody is going to complain about caved in sidewalls on a $10 mp3 player. The fact that it has an aluminium case at all is it's selling point.
 

Offline SL4P

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2318
  • Country: au
  • There's more value if you figure it out yourself!
Re: Things that do not make economic sense
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2014, 12:40:49 am »
Wives, a cleaner and cook work out far cheaper once you factor in the divorce. :)

Oh KJDS, I fear something is missing in your life ;) :P

Nagging?

Go HJDS !
Don't ask a question if you aren't willing to listen to the answer.
 

Offline saturation

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4787
  • Country: us
  • Doveryai, no proveryai
    • NIST
Re: Things that do not make economic sense
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2014, 03:55:27 pm »
Others have said it already, but while it last, you should take advantage of it.  It won't last forever.

In nearly 20 years of buying low cost no name made in china products, then the last 12 years direct from China via eBay, the quality of components has deteriorated badly as well as a huge rise in counterfeit or fraudulent devices, so I no longer buy electronics direct from China via eBay, unless I see a nice box.  As you mention the chassis alone is often worth more than you'd buy locally, include also Chinese knobs and low amperage wiring.

The big bargain I find from China these days are just the project boxes.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Best-Plastic-Enclosure-Case-DIY-Electronics-Project-Box-141016-JNBB-/201195768898?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item2ed833cc42

My goal is $0.50 to $1 each delivered regardless of size.
Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 

Offline Sigmoid

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 488
  • Country: us
Re: Things that do not make economic sense
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2014, 10:07:49 pm »
Quote
Things that do not make economic sense
The US healthcare system?  :P :-\ ;)
 

Offline KJDS

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2442
  • Country: gb
    • my website holding page
Re: Things that do not make economic sense
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2014, 10:23:14 pm »
Quote
Things that do not make economic sense
The US healthcare system?  :P :-\ ;)

in 1962, Phil Ochs wrote the lyrics

Hooray for the A.M.A.
And for us doctors gluts of higher pay
If you can't afford my bill don't you tell me that you're ill
'Cause that's the free enterprise way

Plus ca change

Offline dannyf

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8221
  • Country: 00
Re: Things that do not make economic sense
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2014, 10:45:32 pm »
Quote
The US healthcare system?

Absolutely. We need, desperately, low quality / low cost healthcare options now.
================================
https://dannyelectronics.wordpress.com/
 

Online coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9826
  • Country: gb
Re: Things that do not make economic sense
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2014, 11:18:39 pm »
I have the impression that China buys obsolete production lines for scrap value and basically completely rebuilds those "obsolete" factories as cheap as possible.
There used to be a lot of that, but its time has largely passed because there is less left to scavenge. For example, 20 years ago the western printing industry was collapsing. Many companies bought advanced new printers not long before their collapse, in an effort to improve their fortunes. I met two guys around that time - a buyer and an engineer. The buyer toured the western bankruptcy auctions, picking up every newish printer, and shipping it to China. With few local bidders, they usually bought at bargain basement prices. The engineer did all the strip down and rebuild needed to get these things up and running in China. So China upgraded to the latest technology at low cost, further straining the remaining western printers. A similar pattern has occurred in a number of industries.
 

Offline Tinkerer

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 346
Re: Things that do not make economic sense
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2014, 11:39:42 pm »
Quote
The US healthcare system?

Absolutely. We need, desperately, low quality / low cost healthcare options now.
Part of the problem is that the insurence companies dictate much of what they(doctors) must charge and its an all of nothing system. Either the doctors must follow the pricing the insurence companies set, or they cant accept insurence period. Of course the majority of people are kinda afraid to go without insurence so the doctors who dont accept dont fare too well and now everyone is required to have insurence.
However, last I saw, about 1/3 of the doctors in the US were planning on dropping insurence because of what has happened. There was one story of a doctor that decided to stop accepting insurence, the price for a simple visit to him was only $50. As opposed to the $100-150 that I have seen Thats a whole off topic subject though.
 

Offline mtdoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3575
  • Country: us
Re: Things that do not make economic sense
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2014, 12:30:12 am »
Quote
Things that do not make economic sense
The US healthcare system?  :P :-\ ;)

Ha! Yes. I can tell you from the perspective of an insider that this is absolutely true.

We spend far more money per capita than any other country but have worse outcomes than all other wealthy "developed" countries and worse than many undeveloped countries.

The reasons are complex and partly historical. But the bottom line in why it hasn't changed despite recognition of the problems for many years now is a combination of cronyism (insurance industry , big pharma, and medical device manufacturers power) and ideological opposition to any form of universal health care system.
 

Offline zapta

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6296
  • Country: 00
Re: Things that do not make economic sense
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2014, 12:35:58 am »
Quote
The US healthcare system?

Absolutely. We need, desperately, low quality / low cost healthcare options now.

... And paid with other people' money.
 

Offline mtdoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3575
  • Country: us
Re: Things that do not make economic sense
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2014, 12:47:06 am »
Quote
The US healthcare system?

Absolutely. We need, desperately, low quality / low cost healthcare options now.

... And paid with other people' money.

Not much different than what we have now which is low quality (but very expensive health care) - being paid for by the public to enrich the well connected few...

 

Offline miguelvp

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5550
  • Country: us
Re: Things that do not make economic sense
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2014, 12:47:11 am »
Too many malpractice lawsuits prevent this from happening.
Insurance for hospitals and medical staff is probably at it's highest, so that they can protect themselves against any mishap.
 

Online edavid

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3451
  • Country: us
Re: Things that do not make economic sense
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2014, 12:57:52 am »
Too many malpractice lawsuits prevent this from happening.
Insurance for hospitals and medical staff is probably at it's highest, so that they can protect themselves against any mishap.

Myth...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-belk/medical-malpractice-costs_b_4171189.html
 

Offline miguelvp

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5550
  • Country: us
Re: Things that do not make economic sense
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2014, 01:19:54 am »
If you read the article he states that he orders a lot of tests so he won't get sued, so that's part of it as well.

It's good that it has gone down, but the reason why it went down is the tons of unnecessary tests, so no matter what, healthcare in the US is still expensive.
 

Offline dannyf

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8221
  • Country: 00
Re: Things that do not make economic sense
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2014, 01:27:31 am »
Quote
Part of the problem is that the insurence companies dictate much of what they(doctors) must charge and its an all of nothing system.

That's not as big of a problem, in my view.

The biggest issue is that the recipients of healthcare services (=patients) don't bear the cost of providing such services. If I don't bear the cost of going for the most expensive doctors for the most expensive procedures with the most expensive drugs, I will go all the way.

We really should have the patients bear a more consequences of his/her healthcare decisions.

Quote
However, last I saw, about 1/3 of the doctors in the US were planning on dropping insurence because of what has happened.

Most of my doctors don't take insurance. Most doctors in my town don't take insurance. Most have signs explicitly refusing medicare / medicaid patients.

So in a way, we are seeing more Chevys (public healthcare), together with mostly BMWs (private insurance). Aka the UK model.
================================
https://dannyelectronics.wordpress.com/
 

Online all_repair

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 725
Re: Things that do not make economic sense
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2014, 01:35:52 am »
Quote
The US healthcare system?

Absolutely. We need, desperately, low quality / low cost healthcare options now.

They are doing well.  It is the electronics industry and Moore Law that need fixing.  You cannot find an industry that pumps in billions to build their plant (wafer) and staffed with armies of PHDs, yet ending up loosing billions and at the end still have to foot billions for people to take over.  Come on, guys, don't bring the world down with us.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf