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This doesn't make sense - NYT article about a solar installation in the US

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Ed.Kloonk:

--- Quote from: james_s on October 29, 2021, 10:21:56 pm ---
--- Quote from: thm_w on October 29, 2021, 09:12:54 pm ---If you use a 110V charger sure, which is adequate for majority of people.
But in home level 2 "fast charger" will go up to 11kW: https://insideevs.com/news/488289/chevrolet-pays-installation-cost-home-charger-bolt/ and its not that expensive to install.

So maybe they should consider discouraging installing these instead of subsidizing them? Or at least build in some grid detection, etc. to charge at optimal times, or throttle charging.

--- End quote ---

I don't think it will be a problem. I have a hot tub that draws 11kW if both pumps and the heat are on full power. My clothes dryer is 5.5kW, I used to have an electric stove in the kitchen that I think was around 10kW fully utilized but that's gas now. The only EV I have direct experience living with for a while was a Tesla and in that you could set the charge current to anything you want up to the max, so if it's on a shared circuit or grid capacity is limited you can back it off. It's only a matter of software to make it coordinate with grid capacity, which it could even guess indirectly by monitoring the incoming voltage.

--- End quote ---

Yeah. I think it's a bit of bullshit that the grid can't take it. We just need to figure who it is and why. My understanding about load capacities on the grid has more to do with anticipation rather than actual heavy load. It costs money and effort to fire up an additional power source. I think that's the problem. Follow the money.

Someone:

--- Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on October 29, 2021, 10:36:41 pm ---
--- Quote from: james_s on October 29, 2021, 10:21:56 pm ---
--- Quote from: thm_w on October 29, 2021, 09:12:54 pm ---If you use a 110V charger sure, which is adequate for majority of people.
But in home level 2 "fast charger" will go up to 11kW: https://insideevs.com/news/488289/chevrolet-pays-installation-cost-home-charger-bolt/ and its not that expensive to install.

So maybe they should consider discouraging installing these instead of subsidizing them? Or at least build in some grid detection, etc. to charge at optimal times, or throttle charging.

--- End quote ---

I don't think it will be a problem. I have a hot tub that draws 11kW if both pumps and the heat are on full power. My clothes dryer is 5.5kW, I used to have an electric stove in the kitchen that I think was around 10kW fully utilized but that's gas now. The only EV I have direct experience living with for a while was a Tesla and in that you could set the charge current to anything you want up to the max, so if it's on a shared circuit or grid capacity is limited you can back it off. It's only a matter of software to make it coordinate with grid capacity, which it could even guess indirectly by monitoring the incoming voltage.

--- End quote ---

Yeah. I think it's a bit of bullshit that the grid can't take it. We just need to figure who it is and why. My understanding about load capacities on the grid has more to do with anticipation rather than actual heavy load. It costs money and effort to fire up an additional power source. I think that's the problem. Follow the money.

--- End quote ---
Its a well known problem, sure you as an individual would probably get away with moving more of your energy use to electricity and the grid would cope. Just like you don't feel like you're causing the traffic when you individually choose to drive. However, if all/most or even half of transport is suddenly moved from fossil fuels to electricity (as countries are planning to do in the next 20 years) its a very big problem:
http://www.withouthotair.com/c18/page_103.shtml
https://www.iea.org/sankey/#?c=United%20States&s=Final%20consumption
or Australia if you prefer:
https://www.iea.org/sankey/#?c=Australia&s=Final%20consumption
Road transport uses more energy (annually) than the current electrical supply. So where is the plan to more the double the electrical generation? Will people play nice with their vehicle charging and only do it during off peak when there is sufficient grid/network capacity? (no, they won't, just like most people drive in peak hour and create the traffic jams).

Its going to need some new market mechanisms to price the cost of delivering that energy more fairly (supply charges based on network connection size would be one place to start, as France etc already do). Market pricing of consumption would contribute, but that remains poorly connected between wholesale and retail.

Marco:
It's only in the last two decades that electricity use has been somewhat stable. Before that it doubled every two decades since the 60s and even faster after WW2.

Of course we were a little more progress oriented in those days. Endless lawsuits against eminent domain, endless lawsuits about permitting, species of endangered whatevers or archaeological finds in every plot of land stopping work, lack of cheap labour which doesn't care working far from home ... it's kinda hard to work at the pace the west sustained in the past.

Ed.Kloonk:

--- Quote from: Someone on October 30, 2021, 01:06:19 am ---
--- Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on October 29, 2021, 10:36:41 pm ---
--- Quote from: james_s on October 29, 2021, 10:21:56 pm ---
--- Quote from: thm_w on October 29, 2021, 09:12:54 pm ---If you use a 110V charger sure, which is adequate for majority of people.
But in home level 2 "fast charger" will go up to 11kW: https://insideevs.com/news/488289/chevrolet-pays-installation-cost-home-charger-bolt/ and its not that expensive to install.

So maybe they should consider discouraging installing these instead of subsidizing them? Or at least build in some grid detection, etc. to charge at optimal times, or throttle charging.

--- End quote ---

I don't think it will be a problem. I have a hot tub that draws 11kW if both pumps and the heat are on full power. My clothes dryer is 5.5kW, I used to have an electric stove in the kitchen that I think was around 10kW fully utilized but that's gas now. The only EV I have direct experience living with for a while was a Tesla and in that you could set the charge current to anything you want up to the max, so if it's on a shared circuit or grid capacity is limited you can back it off. It's only a matter of software to make it coordinate with grid capacity, which it could even guess indirectly by monitoring the incoming voltage.

--- End quote ---

Yeah. I think it's a bit of bullshit that the grid can't take it. We just need to figure who it is and why. My understanding about load capacities on the grid has more to do with anticipation rather than actual heavy load. It costs money and effort to fire up an additional power source. I think that's the problem. Follow the money.

--- End quote ---
Its a well known problem, sure you as an individual would probably get away with moving more of your energy use to electricity and the grid would cope. Just like you don't feel like you're causing the traffic when you individually choose to drive. However, if all/most or even half of transport is suddenly moved from fossil fuels to electricity (as countries are planning to do in the next 20 years) its a very big problem:
http://www.withouthotair.com/c18/page_103.shtml
https://www.iea.org/sankey/#?c=United%20States&s=Final%20consumption
or Australia if you prefer:
https://www.iea.org/sankey/#?c=Australia&s=Final%20consumption
Road transport uses more energy (annually) than the current electrical supply. So where is the plan to more the double the electrical generation? Will people play nice with their vehicle charging and only do it during off peak when there is sufficient grid/network capacity? (no, they won't, just like most people drive in peak hour and create the traffic jams).

Its going to need some new market mechanisms to price the cost of delivering that energy more fairly (supply charges based on network connection size would be one place to start, as France etc already do). Market pricing of consumption would contribute, but that remains poorly connected between wholesale and retail.

--- End quote ---

I know what you're saying. But supply of power is based on economics. The grid will cope just as soon as they figure out how to charge for it. Too many ppl factor the new EV car at current supply prices.

Someone:

--- Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on October 30, 2021, 01:37:26 am ---
--- Quote from: Someone on October 30, 2021, 01:06:19 am ---
--- Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on October 29, 2021, 10:36:41 pm ---
--- Quote from: james_s on October 29, 2021, 10:21:56 pm ---
--- Quote from: thm_w on October 29, 2021, 09:12:54 pm ---If you use a 110V charger sure, which is adequate for majority of people.
But in home level 2 "fast charger" will go up to 11kW: https://insideevs.com/news/488289/chevrolet-pays-installation-cost-home-charger-bolt/ and its not that expensive to install.

So maybe they should consider discouraging installing these instead of subsidizing them? Or at least build in some grid detection, etc. to charge at optimal times, or throttle charging.

--- End quote ---

I don't think it will be a problem. I have a hot tub that draws 11kW if both pumps and the heat are on full power. My clothes dryer is 5.5kW, I used to have an electric stove in the kitchen that I think was around 10kW fully utilized but that's gas now. The only EV I have direct experience living with for a while was a Tesla and in that you could set the charge current to anything you want up to the max, so if it's on a shared circuit or grid capacity is limited you can back it off. It's only a matter of software to make it coordinate with grid capacity, which it could even guess indirectly by monitoring the incoming voltage.

--- End quote ---

Yeah. I think it's a bit of bullshit that the grid can't take it. We just need to figure who it is and why. My understanding about load capacities on the grid has more to do with anticipation rather than actual heavy load. It costs money and effort to fire up an additional power source. I think that's the problem. Follow the money.

--- End quote ---
Its a well known problem, sure you as an individual would probably get away with moving more of your energy use to electricity and the grid would cope. Just like you don't feel like you're causing the traffic when you individually choose to drive. However, if all/most or even half of transport is suddenly moved from fossil fuels to electricity (as countries are planning to do in the next 20 years) its a very big problem:
http://www.withouthotair.com/c18/page_103.shtml
https://www.iea.org/sankey/#?c=United%20States&s=Final%20consumption
or Australia if you prefer:
https://www.iea.org/sankey/#?c=Australia&s=Final%20consumption
Road transport uses more energy (annually) than the current electrical supply. So where is the plan to more the double the electrical generation? Will people play nice with their vehicle charging and only do it during off peak when there is sufficient grid/network capacity? (no, they won't, just like most people drive in peak hour and create the traffic jams).

Its going to need some new market mechanisms to price the cost of delivering that energy more fairly (supply charges based on network connection size would be one place to start, as France etc already do). Market pricing of consumption would contribute, but that remains poorly connected between wholesale and retail.

--- End quote ---
I know what you're saying. But supply of power is based on economics. The grid will cope just as soon as they figure out how to charge for it. Too many ppl factor the new EV car at current supply prices.
--- End quote ---
The grid (Australia and US) doesn't cope with existing peak demands, the current model already fails on that point. For all the talk of moving to electric transport there hasn't been any planning on how the grid will support that and where the generation will come from. Technically possible, yes, but the free market won't deliver it as the current market they play in is largely for show/theatrical (monopoly distributors, cartel generators).

You put it pretty simply:

--- Quote from: Ed.Kloonk on October 29, 2021, 10:36:41 pm ---I think it's a bit of bullshit that the grid can't take it. We just need to figure who it is and why. My understanding about load capacities on the grid has more to do with anticipation rather than actual heavy load. It costs money and effort to fire up an additional power source. I think that's the problem. Follow the money.
--- End quote ---
The grids don't have spare generation capacity, or spare carrying capacity right now (recent outages/curtailments and inability to carry more distributed solar). Neither do the grids have trajectories or plans in place to grow at the rate required by electrification of transport by 2040/2050/etc.

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