Author Topic: This electons flowing rubbish  (Read 7047 times)

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Offline Stray Electron

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Re: This electons flowing rubbish
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2021, 02:12:20 pm »
Would a change in terminology make it better? We could have "a flow of current caused by a floundering of electrons"

ADHD electrons? ;D

   I saw what you did there!
 

Online Berni

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Re: This electons flowing rubbish
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2021, 02:12:25 pm »
Thinking of the electron as a particle is another poor analogy. It's a particular disturbance in a system of fields.
Is your anode getting heavier?

But why would we talk about an disturbance in an electric field? That electric field is just a large scale manifestation of the effects caused by quantum electrodynamics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_electrodynamics

Basically you can keep digging deeper and deeper with this, so far the deepest depth for this is QED. Its the same as we thought atoms are the smallest building block. Then we figured out how to bust the atom open and find those protons and neutrons inside. Suddenly those ware the fundamental particles. But then we figured out how to punch those protons so hard that they break into even smaller more fundamental particles. But the way an atom behaves is still valid, even if we found out its actually made up from smaller particles that are made up of even smaller particles. We don't have to throw chemistry out the window because of it.
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: This electons flowing rubbish
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2021, 02:14:43 pm »
Basically you can keep digging deeper and deeper with this, so far the deepest depth for this is QED.

The Unified Field Theory is even more fundamental.
 

Offline penfold

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Re: This electons flowing rubbish
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2021, 04:54:14 pm »
Would a change in terminology make it better? We could have "a flow of current caused by a floundering of electrons"
ADHD electrons? ;D
   I saw what you did there!

So there we go, it defines their two states of "lots of movement, very little of it in the intended direction" and "nothing but direction although sometimes in an unexpected direction" (apologies Stray Electron if it appropriates your username)
 

Online ledtester

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Re: This electons flowing rubbish
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2021, 05:43:43 pm »
Are you concerned that it's not the same electron that skips from atom to atom?

Problem solved:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-electron_universe



 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: This electons flowing rubbish
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2021, 05:51:56 pm »
Are you concerned that it's not the same electron that skips from atom to atom?

Problem solved:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-electron_universe

I remember my high school physics teacher explaining this in 1981!
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: This electons flowing rubbish
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2021, 09:43:27 pm »
Um, what about situations where the movement of electrons (or other charged particles) generates the voltage???
The only examples I can think of where the electron current generates a voltage (as opposed to being the result of an applied voltage) are:
1. Photovoltaic cells, under illumination.
2. A vacuum diode (or other tube) with a hot cathode and a resistor from the anode (or grid for a triode) back to the cathode, where the energetic electrons thermally emitted from the cathode induce a current in the (usually high-value) resistor.  Beta emission from a radioactive source would be similar.
In the case of induction from a changing magnetic field, the changing flux linking the circuit induces an EMF around the circuit, which then causes current to flow through the conductors and other elements of the closed circuit.
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: This electons flowing rubbish
« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2021, 10:06:45 pm »
Um, what about situations where the movement of electrons (or other charged particles) generates the voltage???
The only examples I can think of where the electron current generates a voltage (as opposed to being the result of an applied voltage) are:
1. Photovoltaic cells, under illumination.
2. A vacuum diode (or other tube) with a hot cathode and a resistor from the anode (or grid for a triode) back to the cathode, where the energetic electrons thermally emitted from the cathode induce a current in the (usually high-value) resistor.  Beta emission from a radioactive source would be similar.
In the case of induction from a changing magnetic field, the changing flux linking the circuit induces an EMF around the circuit, which then causes current to flow through the conductors and other elements of the closed circuit.

The solar wind is a good example.

Also streaming potential and sedimentation potential (ions rather than electrons per se but the same idea).
 

Offline jh15

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Re: This electons flowing rubbish
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2021, 05:20:20 am »
Long distance runner without a jock.
Tek 575 curve trcr top shape, Tek 535, Tek 465. Tek 545 Hickok clone, Tesla Model S,  Ohio Scientific c24P SBC, c-64's from club days, Giant electric bicycle, Rigol stuff, Heathkit AR-15's. Heathkit ET- 3400a trainer&interface. Starlink pizza.
 

Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: This electons flowing rubbish
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2021, 01:14:27 pm »
Why do people just keep on promoting bad science?

Electrons do not flow in conductors or semiconductors or anything else when a current is flowing. Yeah Yeah drift current... diffusion current... blah.
Charge is transported around the current path under the influence of the applied voltage.

Let's stamp out the BS in EE!

I'm sorry my friend, but I can't even grasp what/(why) you are trying to say, there ???  ???
I think you might be intermixing & confusing yourself with a few basic electrical facts....

Firstly, of COURSE electrons actually physically flow in conductors, but maybe not in the way 'you' imagine it.
Let's first clear up thoughts of the "Speed of Light". The ONLY thing that travels at the speed of light, is LIGHT.
(And it does that at slightly varying speeds, whether through vacuum/air/diamond etc.! ).  This actually has
nothing to do with the apparent 'speed' of Electricity, which is simply the result of a 'knock-on' effect within
the conductor. In say a 'Super-Conductor' situation, this knock-on effect is just a lot quicker!

Now... My actual 'numbers' here are just to give you an idea, but even though, (talking about DC first!) when
a difference of potential (voltage) is 'pushing' Electrons in one end of say a wire, and the apparent 'flow' is
almost instantaneously apparent at the other end, the Electrons themselves did NOT actually travel that fast!  :P
Assuming that in a conductor, there is say 1-Amp flowing, then the ACTUAL physical 'Electrons' are only moving
at (ABOUT!) say 1-Cm per Second!!  And 'moving' in this way, they most certainly are !!!   8)

However, for an AC circuit, (say 50/60 Hz), these 'same' electrons are just moving forwards & backwards again,
in the same piece of wire! and never really getting anywhere...  But 'moving' they most certainly are!  :-+
Diagonal of 1x1 square = Root-2. Ok.
Diagonal of 1x1x1 cube = Root-3 !!!  Beautiful !!
 

Offline madires

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Re: This electons flowing rubbish
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2021, 02:12:07 pm »
And don't forget the Fermi energy! That way it's easy to tell conductor, semiconductor and insulator apart.
 
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Offline vad

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Re: This electons flowing rubbish
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2021, 03:20:04 pm »
Charge is transported around the current path under the influence of the applied voltage.

Let's stamp out the BS in EE!
No, no, no. That’s also wrong.

I would say: charged particles (such as electrons, ions) and quasiparticles (such as electron holes) transported by electromagnetic field.

PS. Should we also declare air flow a BS?
 

Offline AntiProtonBoy

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Re: This electons flowing rubbish
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2021, 04:27:24 pm »
Are you concerned that it's not the same electron that skips from atom to atom?

Problem solved:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-electron_universe
Ah but where are the positrons?
 

Online ejeffrey

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Re: This electons flowing rubbish
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2021, 09:30:42 pm »
Firstly, of COURSE electrons actually physically flow in conductors, but maybe not in the way 'you' imagine it.
Let's first clear up thoughts of the "Speed of Light". The ONLY thing that travels at the speed of light, is LIGHT.
(And it does that at slightly varying speeds, whether through vacuum/air/diamond etc.! ).  This actually has
nothing to do with the apparent 'speed' of Electricity, which is simply the result of a 'knock-on' effect within
the conductor. In say a 'Super-Conductor' situation, this knock-on effect is just a lot quicker!

This is also wrong.  Speed of light has *everything* to do with the speed of "electricity" (i.e., the speed signal propagation within a circuit). Specifically it is the speed if light in the dielectric surrounding the metal.  In normal situations it doesn't depend on the metal properties at all.  It's the same in superconductors.  This is roughly because it is light: circuit behavior is governed by electric and magnetic fields which propagate at the speed of light.  The reason it depends on the speed of light specifically in the dielectric surrounding the conductors is because electric fields and high frequency magnetic fields are nearly zero inside the conductor.
 

Offline MIS42N

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Re: This electons flowing rubbish
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2021, 09:55:01 pm »
Why do people just keep on promoting bad science?

Electrons do not flow in conductors or semiconductors or anything else when a current is flowing. Yeah Yeah drift current... diffusion current... blah.
Charge is transported around the current path under the influence of the applied voltage.

Let's stamp out the BS in EE!

Of course the OP is right. No 'electons' involved. But ... assuming we are talking of electrons ...

Let's turn the question around - when does an (electrical) current flow without the movement of electrons? Anybody? nobody with their hand in the air?

QED -  reductio ad impossibile
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: This electons flowing rubbish
« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2021, 10:13:23 pm »
A beam of positive ions (e.g. protons or ionized heavier atoms such as alpha particles) through an electrostatic field from source to target.  Traditionally called “canal rays” (q.v.).
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 10:58:16 pm by TimFox »
 

Offline MIS42N

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Re: This electons flowing rubbish
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2021, 10:46:58 pm »
A beam of positive ions (e.g. protons or ionized heavier atoms sumac as alpha particles) through an electrostatic field from source to target.  Traditionally called “canal rays” (q.v.).
To create positive ions, have to move electrons as well. They will migrate through the environment to recombine with the ions at the destination. Similar to P doped semiconductor. To create an electrostatic field strip or add charge carriers (electrons or +ve body - ion, proton etc). To regain status quo, move a carrier of the other potential. Somewhere in the process an electron is moved.

I guess I have to revise the statement because in theory charge can be moved by positrons in an anti matter environment. Is there any negative charge carrier other than an electron in the "normal" universe?
 

Offline Circlotron

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Re: This electons flowing rubbish
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2021, 10:57:12 pm »
Oh and what are "electons"?
The force that moves politicians along a path one by one through a seat of power, then down the line to obscurity.
 
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Offline TimFox

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Re: This electons flowing rubbish
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2021, 11:03:13 pm »
Quote from: MIS42N link=topic=272082.msg3493046#[sup
[/sup]msg3493046 date=1614811618]
A beam of positive ions (e.g. protons or ionized heavier atoms sumac as alpha particles) through an electrostatic field from source to target.  Traditionally called “canal rays” (q.v.).
To create positive ions, have to move electrons as well. They will migrate through the environment to recombine with the ions at the destination. Similar to P doped semiconductor. To create an electrostatic field strip or add charge carriers (electrons or +ve body - ion, proton etc). To regain status quo, move a carrier of the other potential. Somewhere in the process an electron is moved.

I guess I have to revise the statement because in theory charge can be moved by positrons in an anti matter environment. Is there any negative charge carrier other than an electron in the "normal" universe?

There are muons (another negatively charged lepton).  In everyday life, there are Cl- ions in saline solutions which migrate in the opposite direction from the Na+ ions during ionic conduction.  You can have a current around a rotating disc if you have positive or negative electrostatic charges on the rim.  Please refer to undergraduate textbooks.
 

Offline MIS42N

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Re: This electons flowing rubbish
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2021, 12:13:02 am »
There are muons (another negatively charged lepton).  In everyday life, there are Cl- ions in saline solutions which migrate in the opposite direction from the Na+ ions during ionic conduction.  You can have a current around a rotating disc if you have positive or negative electrostatic charges on the rim.  Please refer to undergraduate textbooks.
The charge carrier in a Cl- ion is an electron. It's piggybacking on a Chlorine atom that's moving. Put an electrostatic charge on a disk and rotate it. Rotation is a movement. Ignoring exotic particles, electrons have to be moved at some time for a current to flow. The electron might not be the focus of attention (such as when a stream of protons is created) but it's moving in the background. Conservation of charge says it has to. Is there something in an undergraduate textbook that contradicts this? This is getting ridiculous. I think the OP put the proposition mischievously.
 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: This electons flowing rubbish
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2021, 12:49:01 am »
Ignoring exotic particles, electrons have to be moved at some time for a current to flow. The electron might not be the focus of attention (such as when a stream of protons is created) but it's moving in the background. Conservation of charge says it has to.

By that logic and by invoking 'conservation of charge', surely the inverse must also be true?  So if there is current in a wire, explain where the proton (or positive charge carrier of your choice) motion is?
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: This electons flowing rubbish
« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2021, 01:12:34 am »
Are you concerned that it's not the same electron that skips from atom to atom?

Problem solved:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-electron_universe
Ah but where are the positrons?

    Hiding out in their non-gender-specific rest rooms?
 

Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: This electons flowing rubbish
« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2021, 01:15:45 am »
Are you concerned that it's not the same electron that skips from atom to atom?

Problem solved:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-electron_universe
Ah but where are the positrons?

Charged with indecent exposure.
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: This electons flowing rubbish
« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2021, 01:50:04 am »
Are you concerned that it's not the same electron that skips from atom to atom?

Problem solved:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-electron_universe
Ah but where are the positrons?

Charged with indecent exposure.

   Circulating in public?
 

Offline penfold

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Re: This electons flowing rubbish
« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2021, 02:10:20 am »
Are you concerned that it's not the same electron that skips from atom to atom?

Problem solved:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-electron_universe
Ah but where are the positrons?

Charged with indecent exposure.

   Circulating in public?

I don't think anybody's objected to *circulating*, just as long as they're not *flowing* in places they're not meant to
 


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