This is why we should all leave the EU

[SeanB]

I was doing factory work all summer for 12,50 to 13,80 euros net per hour.
That's a lot for packaging stuff. But companies can't find Flemish workers. So they have two options: delocalise or hire Poles.

That is a good rate! Here that is a day's wage or more for semi-skilled labour like building, plastering, plumbing or electrical cable pulling and such, and a lot lower for just manual labour. You can get somebody to drive a wheelbarrow, operate a spade or pickaxe and such for half that. Offer that rate here and you would have a queue a kilometre long on the second day.

[dannyf]

This is a very racist comment.

Why would that be a racist comment?

The nice thing about america is that they have closed borders and can control who comes in.

Really? Given what's going on on the southern board, I thought it would be hard for people to retain that perception any longer.

[GeoffS]

Let's cut down on the increasingly racist tone in this thread

[owiecc]

This is a very racist comment.

Why would that be a racist comment?

You're Polish? Ah, this means you came here to steal our jobs. Maybe racist is the wrong word here. I think xenophobic would be better.

[Rufus]

You are one of the millions of poles that left Poland for an EU country with higher pay and living standards? No wonder you love the EU.  The people of Denmark and those other countries thank the EU not so much.

This is a very racist comment.

Race has nothing to do with it, how politician like of you to play the racist card.

An influx of millions of workers to the wealthier countries in the EU drives down wages of the skilled and pushes the unskilled towards unemployment. The wealthy get cheaper servants, companies get cheaper workers and the unskilled natives get to live on state benefits, the substantial drop in their standard of living helps to pay for the rise in that of the migrants.

When the borders came down how many Brits, French, Germans, etc crossed them to work in Poland? About 2 million less than crossed in the opposite direction.

Free borders serve to equalize the standard of living across the EU, pretty easy to understand why those in poorer countries thank the EU more than the rest.

[zapta]

Apropos freedom and Polish electricians, here is one that rose up to the challenge, stood against oppression and ended up with a Nobel prize:



Another Polish that challenges the authorities in his own way is SA Wardega (check his youtube channel):

[dannyf]

You're Polish? Ah, this means you came here to steal our jobs.

Unless "here" means Africa, Asia, or South America, we are talking about the same "race" here. So what exactly made that comment "racist"?

You raised two concerns:

1) stereotyping - aka all polish people are here to steal jobs. That's factually untrue.

2) some polish people are pricing some local people out of the market - I am sure there is some some true to that.

So, being able to subject Poland to EU regulations did create benefits (education and a job opportunity) for you that you otherwise wouldn't have had. ie., your view on EU regulations is a little biased.

I think that's what the other side was trying to point out. I don't sense any "racism" in it.

[dannyf]

I think xenophobic would be better.

Depending on how you define "xenophobic".

Some may define it as fear of anything foreign / unfamiliar - that's an animal instinct and thanks to it, we have survived this long. ie., xenophobia is a good thing.

Others may define it as unreasonable fear of anything foreign / unfamiliar. Well, unreasonable anything is bad: unreasonable needs for happiness for example is bad; unreasonable attraction to beauty is bad; unreasonable pursuit of knowledge is bad; ...

The dirty word here is "unreasonable", not the fear of anything foreign / unfamiliar.

[SeanB]

Sheesh, first world problems.........

[zapta]

Again, you know nothing of what you speak. They didn't pass a new law, it was a ruling under the existing law regulating advertisement of medical claims.

This is what always happens with any story about the EU. People who know nothing about it read a misleading article and get in a huff.

Bureaucrats should not rule because this is a de facto law making. Legislators should legislate, judicial should judge and bureaucrats should execute the law. In this case it's another example of a central bureaucracy running amok.

Mojo Chan, it's fascinating how you jump to defend every restriction of freedom by your government. Remember, oppression always comes with reasoning. Look out for your freedom and don't take it for granted.

[zapta]

Sheesh, first world problems.........

That's why it's a first world, because of people that fault for our freedom. Don't take it for granted.

[owiecc]

1) stereotyping - aka all polish people are here to steal jobs. That's factually untrue.

I know that but the comment was directed to me, that is why I felt the way I did.

2) some polish people are pricing some local people out of the market - I am sure there is some some true to that.

True. Happens everywhere as I stated previously (e.g. villagers moving to cities). It is actually a job for the local unions. If a Polish worker goes to the union and says that he earns too little union will go to the employer to fix that. This is done both to protect the locals from falling wages and immigrants from getting a substandard pay.

So, being able to subject Poland to EU regulations did create benefits (education and a job opportunity) for you that you otherwise wouldn't have had. ie., your view on EU regulations is a little biased.

Actually Polish education was on a very high standard before we joined EU. Our higher education was always free. If anything I would say joining EU lowered the standard by introducing a 6/6 system instead if 8/4 system (years of primary/secondary education). Many people here are of the opinion that previous system was much better.

I agree that being from a country that benefited a lot from EU (thank you wealthier countries) make me biased. But I also think this is a transient period and maybe in 20 years the economies of european countries will level and no one will have to leave their country to look for a job. We will all look at this period and complain about immigrants from US stealing our jobs

[dannyf]

But I also think this is a transient period and maybe in 20 years the economies of european countries will level and no one will have to leave their country to look for a job.

I am sure that will happen.

But look further, why should the "EU" concept stop within the existing countries? What about those poor Turks? Or Ukrainians? Or the Georgians? Or the Russians? Or the Africans? Or the Pakistanis? ......

Hopefully, those who complain about racism / xenophia in Western Europe today become enthusiastic advocates for the billions of super-poors from other countries / continents.

We will all look at this period and complain about immigrants from US stealing our jobs

At this rate, you are unlikely to wait too long for that.

[nctnico]

This is a very racist comment.

Why would that be a racist comment?

You're Polish? Ah, this means you came here to steal our jobs. Maybe racist is the wrong word here. I think xenophobic would be better.

I don't think the Polish are here to steal our jobs. When I had glass fiber installed 3 men came to pull the cable from the street into my home. 2 men where Dutch and one was Polish. The Polish guy was in charge (and did skilled things like welding the fibers) and he even had to show the Dutch guys how to drill a hole in concrete  I've heard other good stories about Polish people being good at construction work. Ofcourse there are also those with very little education which end up with the odd jobs. IMHO being able to build something with your hands is not something people are willing to learn in the West part of Europe. There is enough work for those who are willing to work.

[zapta]

...We will all look at this period and complain about immigrants from US stealing our jobs

Reminds me this bumper sticker  ;-)



One reason Poland is not wealthy is the socialist regime you used to have.  I remember visiting east and west Germany before the communist collapsed.  It was a stark difference. Same people, same history, same language but different political systems. One free and one oppressive.

[owiecc]

But look further, why should the "EU" concept stop within the existing countries? What about those poor Turks? Or Ukrainians? Or the Georgians? Or the Russians? Or the Africans? Or the Pakistanis? ......

I am all for all of them having the best standard of living possible. The equalization of wealth is a natural process. You go there where most resources/opportunities are. Why wouldn't you? There are some nice videos about this from Hans Rosling at TED.

[dannyf]

I am all for all of them having the best standard of living possible.

You probably should then dedicate yourself to opening the polish boarder to people from poorer countries then.

It is noble only if you put your foot where your mouth is.

[gildasd]

1) stereotyping - aka all polish people are here to steal jobs. That's factually untrue.

I know that but the comment was directed to me, that is why I felt the way I did.

2) some polish people are pricing some local people out of the market - I am sure there is some some true to that.

True. Happens everywhere as I stated previously (e.g. villagers moving to cities). It is actually a job for the local unions. If a Polish worker goes to the union and says that he earns too little union will go to the employer to fix that. This is done both to protect the locals from falling wages and immigrants from getting a substandard pay.

So, being able to subject Poland to EU regulations did create benefits (education and a job opportunity) for you that you otherwise wouldn't have had. ie., your view on EU regulations is a little biased.

Actually Polish education was on a very high standard before we joined EU. Our higher education was always free. If anything I would say joining EU lowered the standard by introducing a 6/6 system instead if 8/4 system (years of primary/secondary education). Many people here are of the opinion that previous system was much better.

I agree that being from a country that benefited a lot from EU (thank you wealthier countries) make me biased. But I also think this is a transient period and maybe in 20 years the economies of european countries will level and no one will have to leave their country to look for a job. We will all look at this period and complain about immigrants from US stealing our jobs

I totally aggree but I have a couple of comments:
- poles are often not the cheapest by the hour, but they tend to work in teams with loads of high end tools.
They simply don't hang around...
- it's not perfect, I have seen utter incompetents. But if they have a technical diploma  and/or come recommended, they kick arse.
- but it's not just the Poles, my best ever shop furniture came from a Turkish source.
- lastly, some of my best polish workers have moved back to Poland because the economy is better for them there.

[gildasd]

I am all for all of them having the best standard of living possible.

You probably should then dedicate yourself to opening the polish boarder to people from poorer countries then.

It is noble only if you put your foot where your mouth is.

They have their doors open...
Most of my Serbian friends moved there.

[owiecc]

I am all for all of them having the best standard of living possible.

You probably should then dedicate yourself to opening the polish boarder to people from poorer countries then.

It is noble only if you put your foot where your mouth is.

Do you buy electronics from China?
Do you buy clothes made in India and Bangladesh or Sri Lanka?

It is already happening.

[Simon]

I have a latvian co worker that came here about 5 years ago that posted on facebook a picture that stated that we should close our borders, my reply was that "he can talk", he said "well at least I want to do something about it"...............

Fact is we have a high unemployment, it is just a pity that the laziness of british workers and their total lack of pride in their work or concern for the success of their employer (therefore guaranteeing their own job) fully justifies the hiring of often skilled and highly motivated workers form other nations!

[dannyf]

Do you buy electronics from China?
Do you buy clothes made in India and Bangladesh or Sri Lanka?

The answers are "yes" and "don't know - don't care enough to know". But what does that have anything to do with this discussion?

It is already happening.

Meaning you have gone back to  Poland to petition the polish government to open its borders?

[owiecc]

The answers are "yes" and "don't know - don't care enough to know". But what does that have anything to do with this discussion?

You are transferring your money abroad. Part of the money stays with the workers and thus improving wealth of India/Sri Lanka, etc.

Meaning you have gone back to  Poland to petition the polish government to open its borders?

The boarders are not close. There are many Vietnamese and Bulgarians living in my small town.

[SgtRock]

Greetings EEVBees:

--Now they have done it. See link below.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/505160/EU-vacuum-cleaner-plan-barmy-bans-on-HAIRDRYERS-and-KETTLES

--Will the English Breakfast be next.

"A three legged dog goes into a bar and says "I'm looking for the man that shot my paw"
Jim Varney  1949  -  2000
 
Best Regards
Clear Ether

[dannyf]

The boarders are not close. There are many Vietnamese and Bulgarians living in my small town.

I suspect that having foreigners in Poland isn't by itself proof that it has an open border; nor should it negate your strong believe in having an open border in Poland.

Words ring hollow when people refuse to practice what they preach.