Author Topic: Tickling the Dragon's Tail  (Read 8056 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline T3sl4co1l

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 14709
  • Country: us
  • Expert, Analog Electronics, PCB Layout, EMC
    • Seven Transistor Labs
Tickling the Dragon's Tail
« on: July 31, 2015, 03:53:43 am »
A documentary on uranium.  If you're in the U.S., this should be available:
http://video.pbs.org/video/2365528391/ Part 1
http://video.pbs.org/video/2365535143/ Part 2
If you're not, I'm afraid you may have to find a proxy, or alternate means of distribution, or wait until they publish it on YouTube or other.

If you're familiar with some of the more scienced parts of YouTube, you should know it's starring Derek of Veritasium (and Bionerd makes a guest appearance in Part 2).

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 

Online Vgkid

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2564
  • Country: us
Re: Tickling the Dragon's Tail
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2015, 04:07:26 am »
I watched part 2 last night with my mom. I will need to watch part 1 now.
If you own any North Hills Electronics gear, message me. L&N Fan
 

Offline Deathwish

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1426
  • Country: wales
Re: Tickling the Dragon's Tail
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2015, 10:36:31 am »
I watched this earlier today, I noted how they said Germany did not have the Atom bomb, then I read this reported today , so ...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3180795/Did-Hitler-atomic-weapon-German-documentary-claims-Nazis-developing-flying-saucer-deliver-bomb-started-tests-Russian-POWs.html
Electrons are typically male, always looking for any hole to get into.
trying to strangle someone who talks out of their rectal cavity will fail, they can still breath.
God hates North Wales, he has put my home address on the blacklist of all couriers with instructions to divert all parcels.
 

Online McBryce

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1517
  • Country: de
Re: Tickling the Dragon's Tail
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2015, 10:52:43 am »
So... you shouldn't consider The Daily mail an acurrate source for Scientific (or any other) information? :D

McBryce.
 

Offline Len

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 515
  • Country: ca
Re: Tickling the Dragon's Tail
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2015, 06:10:26 pm »
I watched this earlier today, I noted how they said Germany did not have the Atom bomb, then I read this reported today , so ...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3180795/Did-Hitler-atomic-weapon-German-documentary-claims-Nazis-developing-flying-saucer-deliver-bomb-started-tests-Russian-POWs.html

If you want to know who had what atom bomb tech when, this book is a great source:
http://www.amazon.com/Making-Atomic-Bomb-Richard-Rhodes/dp/0684813785/sr=8-1/qid=1164438935/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-7240188-1463959?ie=UTF8&s=books

If you want to protect your driveway from stains when your car is leaking oil... come to think of it, the Daily Mail is no good for that either.
 

Offline Deathwish

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1426
  • Country: wales
Re: Tickling the Dragon's Tail
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2015, 07:14:55 pm »
I already have the Book Len, thanks though
Electrons are typically male, always looking for any hole to get into.
trying to strangle someone who talks out of their rectal cavity will fail, they can still breath.
God hates North Wales, he has put my home address on the blacklist of all couriers with instructions to divert all parcels.
 

Offline continuo

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 303
  • Country: de
Re: Tickling the Dragon's Tail
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2015, 07:34:53 pm »
Flying Saucers, yup, the nazis had them, there is even a documentary on that:



Zhis, and Space Zeppelins, of course  8)
 

Offline Deathwish

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1426
  • Country: wales
Re: Tickling the Dragon's Tail
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2015, 07:39:40 pm »
I refuse to admitting I watched that then  :palm: . but it does beg to ask the question what would of happened if they had it and shoved it in a V2. Coulda been nasty
Electrons are typically male, always looking for any hole to get into.
trying to strangle someone who talks out of their rectal cavity will fail, they can still breath.
God hates North Wales, he has put my home address on the blacklist of all couriers with instructions to divert all parcels.
 

Offline LukeW

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 673
Re: Tickling the Dragon's Tail
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2015, 07:53:27 pm »
As a popular science documentary for the general public that is watchable I thought it was not bad overall.

Professor Geraldine Thomas was particularly good in her interview bits, particularly her comments about psychological health damage at Fukushima being caused by sensationalist tabloid media, by fanatical activists screaming pseudoscience and by unnecessary forced evacuations, how done of this health damage was actually caused by radioactivity, and it was all understood from the Chernobyl Forum reports and it could have been predicted, it could have prevented, it was known that this could happen but it was not prevented.

And yes, to reiterate what was posted above, The Making of the Atomic Bomb is one of the greatest non-fiction works of the twentieth century, and it's a book that no library of modern physics should be without.
 

Offline miguelvp

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5549
  • Country: us
Re: Tickling the Dragon's Tail
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2015, 10:17:55 pm »
Must be fiction there is no way Sarah Palin would ever be elected president of the US.

 

Offline cimmo

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 272
  • Country: au
Re: Tickling the Dragon's Tail
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2015, 02:48:08 am »
Having only seen part one so far, I must say I was very disappointed with the dumbing down of the story involving the Trinity device. Not a single mention of Plutonium.
Perhaps since this is a story about Uranium, the producers didn't want to confuse the viewers - but you cannot get Plutonium without starting from Uranium, so why not spend a few minutes explaining the process?

Dumbed down documentaries (that completely ignore significant details) are worse than no documentaries.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2015, 02:53:02 am by cimmo »
Noise filter is set to ignore: Zapta, dunkemhigh, dannyf
 

Offline bills

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 350
  • Country: us
Re: Tickling the Dragon's Tail
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2015, 02:51:34 am »
" Dumbed down documentaries are worse than no documentaries. " ????

really?
 
Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
 

Offline cimmo

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 272
  • Country: au
Re: Tickling the Dragon's Tail
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2015, 02:56:32 am »
" Dumbed down documentaries are worse than no documentaries. " ????

really?
Dumbed down documentaries THAT COMPLETELY IGNORE SIGNIFICANT DETAILS are worse than no documentaries.

Without this pseudo-documentary, anyone with any interest would probably go online,  find the wiki article and have the entire story at their fingertips. At least they would find out about Plutonium.
This dumbed down glossy presentation will now give the Dunning-Kruger types just enough information for them to think they know it all (and have no need to find out more) - when what they have been told is only a fraction of the real story.

« Last Edit: August 01, 2015, 03:09:19 am by cimmo »
Noise filter is set to ignore: Zapta, dunkemhigh, dannyf
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 14709
  • Country: us
  • Expert, Analog Electronics, PCB Layout, EMC
    • Seven Transistor Labs
Re: Tickling the Dragon's Tail
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2015, 03:39:59 am »
This thread has taken a strange turn...

I found it rather accurate; simplified, yes, but it's only an hour per segment.  I expect the host would've loved to branch in any of a vast number of directions to expand on things (just as I thought of related things while watching it), but this is a limitation of the format.

By the way, the Germans did have a nuclear research program, and no, they didn't have atomic bombs.  Not by a long shot.  All they had was a uranium Christmas tree, and I'm not even kidding with that caption:



Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 

Offline monksod

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 23
Re: Tickling the Dragon's Tail
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2015, 04:39:08 am »
There is a great new Norwegian 6-part mini-series called "The Saboteurs" about Hitler's a-bomb project.
 

Offline zapta

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6004
  • Country: us
Re: Tickling the Dragon's Tail
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2015, 11:45:31 am »
There is a great new Norwegian 6-part mini-series called "The Saboteurs" about Hitler's a-bomb project.

And this the the Holywood version:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0059263/
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline monksod

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 23
Re: Tickling the Dragon's Tail
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2015, 05:19:27 pm »
And this the the Holywood version

Great movie! Not to mention a major sub-plot in Escape of the Birdmen (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066833/?ref_=ttrel_rel_tt). And also the great 4-part BBC documentary "The Real Heroes of Telemark", with interviews with the actual commandos!
 

Offline Mechanical Menace

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1293
  • Country: gb
Re: Tickling the Dragon's Tail
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2015, 06:07:08 pm »
Great movie!

,,,

And also the great 4-part BBC documentary "The Real Heroes of Telemark", with interviews with the actual commandos!

That documentary was made as a backlash against (what the documentary makers thought was) a terrible, inaccurate film that belittled the people it was based on. I personally don't think the film was that bad, after all everything adapted into a film has to make compromises, but do find it interesting why these things are made.
Second sexiest ugly bloke on the forum.
"Don't believe every quote you read on the internet, because I totally didn't say that."
~Albert Einstein
 

Offline wkb

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 540
  • Country: nl
Re: Tickling the Dragon's Tail
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2015, 07:57:10 pm »
Must be fiction there is no way Sarah Palin would ever be elected president of the US.

Or Mr. Trump for that matter  :wtf:
 

Offline Rick Law

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2735
  • Country: us
Re: Tickling the Dragon's Tail
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2015, 04:53:43 am »
Great movie!

,,,

And also the great 4-part BBC documentary "The Real Heroes of Telemark", with interviews with the actual commandos!

That documentary was made as a backlash against (what the documentary makers thought was) a terrible, inaccurate film that belittled the people it was based on. I personally don't think the film was that bad, after all everything adapted into a film has to make compromises, but do find it interesting why these things are made.

The is another documentary on a related topic - not about the heros of Telemark, but on what was really in the sunken train.  Documentary was made by PBS (USA's Public Broadcast) called "Hilter's Sunken Secret".

First thing you will notice is the the Hollywood reproduction did a good job in picturing the production facility and the equipment.

Second is, they also have some interviews with the actual people involved such as Knut Lier Hansen.

Third, they documented tests of samples from the sunken ferry (barrel number 26) to confirmed the content of the shipment manifest in the document archive at the plant.  The tests confirmed the train content were indeed containers of heavy water each in concentration stated in the manifest.  15 tons of partially purified heavy water was to be shipped during closure of the hydro plant.

Fourth, according to the manifest, the barrels with higher concentration of heavy water were (mostly) partially filled.  They floated.  Thus, some barrels survived the sinking and were shipped to Berlin.

That aside.  Heavy water is useful for making the a-bomb, but it is not the only thing necessary.
 
Although Germany may not necessary had the practical solutions to issues such as how to artificially start the chain reaction but they surely could figure out.  It is clear that Germany understood the principal of making such a bomb.  It is also clear (from documents of the day) that Germany didn't put it on the front burner.  The NAZI leadership felt that the war will be done in less than a few years, so a bomb taking more than a few years to make is not useful.  So while it continued, it was not an important project.  The allies found what was the experiment reactor in the cave near/under a Church in Haigerloch Bavaria that hasn't begun to work.

Given how much resources it took the USA to make the bomb, my opinion is that Germany simply did not have the resource to get it done then even had they tried their best.  USA, in cooperation with England, Canada and other allies, spend billions (of 1940 dollars) to make it, over 50,000 people and using multiple plants running non-stop (for years) to refine uranium and plutonium.  Germany certainly had the scientist then, but by 1942, if they had any working reactors, none of them could feasibly function at necessary pace as they were bomb by the USA during the day, and bomb by Britain during the night.  They would not have been able to enriched enough uranium or plutonium to make the bomb before the war ends - even if all other bomb-related things went well for them.

So, in my opinion, the heavy water getting to Berlin or not would not have been a show stopper.  There were other things that they couldn't get done that stopped the show.  But, we didn't know that then.  We didn't even know how much it would take to make the bomb ourselves.  So, it would have been an unwise gamble not to stop the heavy water shipment getting to Berlin.
 

steverino

  • Guest
Re: Tickling the Dragon's Tail
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2015, 05:03:04 am »
Must be fiction there is no way Sarah Palin would ever be elected president of the US.

Or Mr. Trump for that matter  :wtf:

Let's not forget we had 8 years of George W. Bush.
 

Offline Rick Law

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2735
  • Country: us
Re: Tickling the Dragon's Tail
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2015, 05:29:08 am »
Must be fiction there is no way Sarah Palin would ever be elected president of the US.

Or Mr. Trump for that matter  :wtf:

Let's not forget we had 8 years of George W. Bush.

And by the time we are done, 8 years of Mr. O if by the time he is done America still exist.

As the saying goes, in America, anyone can become President.
 

Offline Halcyon

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3876
  • Country: au
Re: Tickling the Dragon's Tail
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2015, 05:59:40 am »
For Australian viewers, Twisting the Dragon's Tail will be broadcast on SBS from 9th August. It'll also be available to stream on the SBS On Demand application.

http://www.sbs.com.au/programs/uranium
 

Offline zapta

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6004
  • Country: us
Re: Tickling the Dragon's Tail
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2015, 04:20:23 pm »
I watched the first 10 minutes. It seems to be shallow and sensational ("it contains the energy forged in an exploding star!").

Does it get better?
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline wkb

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 540
  • Country: nl
Re: Tickling the Dragon's Tail
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2015, 06:03:26 pm »
Must be fiction there is no way Sarah Palin would ever be elected president of the US.

Or Mr. Trump for that matter  :wtf:

Let's not forget we had 8 years of George W. Bush.


And by the time we are done, 8 years of Mr. O if by the time he is done America still exist.

As the saying goes, in America, anyone can become President.

Well..

Quoting Winston Churchill who reportedly quoted someone else:

Many forms of Gov­ern­ment have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pre­tends that democ­racy is per­fect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democ­racy is the worst form of Gov­ern­ment except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…
 

Offline cimmo

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 272
  • Country: au
Re: Tickling the Dragon's Tail
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2015, 02:55:42 am »
I watched the first 10 minutes. It seems to be shallow and sensational ("it contains the energy forged in an exploding star!").

Does it get better?
No.
All gloss and no real substance.
I still wonder why they bothered to explain uranium's daughter products, but not one mention of the "P" word for the entire two hours. On the few occasions where plutonium is exclusively used in practice and not actual uranium (eg: the RTG description), they resort to euphemisms - "nuclear".

Clearly a decision was made to simplify the story and by avoiding mention of plutonium, then that avoids the need to explain how it is made from uranium. And yet the show is peppered with trivial irrelevancies like the etymology of the word "dollar".
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 03:05:34 am by cimmo »
Noise filter is set to ignore: Zapta, dunkemhigh, dannyf
 

Offline JohnnyP

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 41
  • Country: us
Re: Tickling the Dragon's Tail
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2015, 06:36:21 am »
Yes, time to dust off my copy of The Making of the Atomic Bomb.

I have always been fascinated by the bomb, wondering how people figured out it could be done.

It must have been the early '90's when I found it on the shelf at Barnes and Noble.  But, that was before the internet, when I had time to read.
 

Offline Rick Law

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2735
  • Country: us
Re: Tickling the Dragon's Tail
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2015, 12:28:23 am »
Yes, time to dust off my copy of The Making of the Atomic Bomb.

I have always been fascinated by the bomb, wondering how people figured out it could be done.

It must have been the early '90's when I found it on the shelf at Barnes and Noble.  But, that was before the internet, when I had time to read.

The movie Fat Man and Little Boy answers many of your questions.  It was am entertaining version of the Manhattan project and more or less true.  (Lots of drama but enough truth in it not to be totally misleading.)
 

Online TerraHertz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3665
  • Country: au
  • Why shouldn't we question everything?
    • It's not really a Blog
Re: Tickling the Dragon's Tail
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2015, 01:42:51 am »
This dumbed down glossy presentation will now give the Dunning-Kruger types just enough information for them to think they know it all (and have no need to find out more) - when what they have been told is only a fraction of the real story.

What do you think is the purpose of such productions?
For every significant historical event, there are one or more such efforts.

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false."
-- William Casey, Director of Central Intelligence. An observation by the late Director at his first staff meeting in 1981.

Given all the other 'victor's history' examples from WWII, I doubt we'll ever know how far Germany had developed their nuclear program. And what, if any, interactions there were with the Manhattan program.

I hope the Iron Sky 2 sequel is as side-splitting as the first.
Collecting old scopes, logic analyzers, and unfinished projects. http://everist.org
 

Offline Someone

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2281
  • Country: au
Re: Tickling the Dragon's Tail
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2015, 11:00:16 pm »
I watched the first 10 minutes. It seems to be shallow and sensational ("it contains the energy forged in an exploding star!").

Does it get better?
No.
All gloss and no real substance.
I still wonder why they bothered to explain uranium's daughter products, but not one mention of the "P" word for the entire two hours. On the few occasions where plutonium is exclusively used in practice and not actual uranium (eg: the RTG description), they resort to euphemisms - "nuclear".

Clearly a decision was made to simplify the story and by avoiding mention of plutonium, then that avoids the need to explain how it is made from uranium. And yet the show is peppered with trivial irrelevancies like the etymology of the word "dollar".
And despite ruining the catchy phrase "Tickling the Dragons Tail" they avoided mentioning the early criticality measurements which brought it all about (and killed people in the process)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godiva_device
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticality_accident
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30824
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: Tickling the Dragon's Tail
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2015, 12:05:15 am »
No.
All gloss and no real substance.
I still wonder why they bothered to explain uranium's daughter products, but not one mention of the "P" word for the entire two hours. On the few occasions where plutonium is exclusively used in practice and not actual uranium (eg: the RTG description), they resort to euphemisms - "nuclear".

Yes, I found this very surprising too, thinking when will they bring up Plutonium but they never did.
Also, no mention of half-life at all and how that works with Uranium and it's "daughters".

Quote
Clearly a decision was made to simplify the story and by avoiding mention of plutonium, then that avoids the need to explain how it is made from uranium. And yet the show is peppered with trivial irrelevancies like the etymology of the word "dollar".

I was also surprised in the end credits to find that Derek didn't write any of it, he was just the presenter. Just some extra camera work by him. Strange given his background.
Seems like he took some time out to shoot some personal Veritasium footage on the wordwide trip  :-+
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf