Toyota Mirai Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicle Debuts Dec 15!

[SgtRock]

Greetings EEVBees:

--See below link for a Register story about the new Toyota hydrogen fuel cell vehicle. Though, I have my doubts about the size of the eventual mass market for such a vehicle, the technology is fascinating, and may indeed find use in some unforeseen niche applications. And in some cases it could possibly be superior to EVs, where grid power is supplied largely by coal and gas burners. Also this technology, which cannot produce carbon monoxide could eventually supplant the propane burning forklift motor. It being the case that the Governments and Quangos are not pushing this one, helps to reassure that the technology is a sincere attempt, and not another taxpayer subsidised rat hole like Solyndra and Ivanpah in the US, PV Solar in Spain, Italy and Germany, and offshore wind in the UK and Germany.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/11/19/toyota_sells_fuel_cells/

"Happy for you to desoldering, please"
Wun Hung Lo 1948 -

Best Regards
Clear Ether

[zapta]

It's a stop-gap measure that was intended to last us until batteries got better...

Or the other way around. This is technology, not religion.

[zapta]

As for solar and wind in Europe, at least we are not as shitty as the US.

You must be kidding. Take a look at your electricity price.

[tom66]

Hydrogen... Hydrogen is a complete black hole.

Costs about as much as petrol per mile and it's made from steam reformed natural gas. Commercial electrolysis of hydrogen is extremely rare. If you did produce it from electricity you'd have a 10~20% net efficiency, so you'd need to generate at least 5x as much electricity as you would to power, e.g. a Tesla or Leaf.

Ok, but you can fast fuel, right? Whilst the fuel can usually be delivered quickly, this station, typical of many, can only support 30 cars per DAY (and even fewer buses):
http://green.autoblog.com/2013/10/14/a-visit-to-a-hydrogen-refueling-station-at-ecoful-town-in-toyota/

They pump the hydrogen as a liquid at ~70MPa through multiple stages, chilling it in the process, but this requires even more electricity. It also restricts the maximum and minimum temperature the station can operate at, and the speed of fuelling:


Hydrogen just doesn't work that well.

You can plug in a Tesla at any supercharger. A few conditions:
- >45C ambient power reduced by about 5% to run A/C compressors at increased cooling rate
- <-20C the battery requires heating before fast charging (5~10min)

[tom66]

Oh, and the government most definitely pushes hydrogen over EV. For example, California's Air Resources Board gives more points to HFCEV, and they've been part-funding the build out of a hydrogen network.

Big oil loves the idea of hydrogen because they can still sell the extracted product to the transportation industry. EVs would be a disaster; yes natural gas would still be required for power plants but at a significantly reduced quantity compared to a hydrogen future.

[free_electron]

hydrogen is still the razor-razorblade problem. you will still forever need to buy a 'consumable'. not a solution. also the way they make hydrogen cost more energy than is in the hydrogen itself.

Get a solar farm on your roof, combine it with residential storage and drive electric. apart from the initial cost ans some maintenance there is no 'consumable' to drive. after x amount of time the hardware is written off. not so with hydrogen. you keep on paying.

Also maintenance on those cars is problematic. you still need mechanics and other complicated services. not so with a pure electric. it has 5 moving parts. maintenance is virtually nonexisting.

and here is another word about hydrogen that may raise questions : hindenburg ...

[SgtRock]

Greetings EEVBees:

--Ah yes those twicky twicky big oil companies. Now instead of overcharging the poor for fuel, they have dropped the price of petroleum in a transparent effort to kill the EV in its cradle, and to promote the evil lie that something called marketplace economics exists. Marketplace economics in case you do not know is the big lie told by the evil bankers and large corporations, that insists that something called "supply and demand" has an effect on prices. This is pure capitalist poppycock, as everyone knows that governments can determine price levels by fiat just like Putler does, God bless him.

--A while ago there was a scheme being touted that Iceland could export its bounteous geothermal energy by converting it into microwaves (no kidding) and beaming it up to satellites which would then beam it back down where needed. A wag I know, was proposing an alternative scenario whereby clock springs would be wound up, then sent through the mails, and Bob's your uncle.

"In the first place, God made idiots. That was for practice. Then he made school boards."
Mark Twain (Samuel Langhorne Clemens ) 1835 - 1910

Best Regards
Clear Ether

[SeanB]

and here is another word about hydrogen that may raise questions : hindenburg ...

The flames were the skin of aluminium painted fabric burning. Hydrogen itself burns with no vivible flame, it is only visible in the ultraviolet, and will only be faintly visible by the unaided human eye at night. Think of that as you try to connect a balky inflexible cryogenic hose, or a ultra high pressure hose, to the filling port, and think of a worn seal that leaks slightly.

then remember the explosive limits of Hydrogen. Below 5% it will not explode on being ignited, and above 95% it will not either. The interface will burn though, and if there is a mixture in the middle which is ignited after mixing for a few seconds it detonates.

Considering using Hydrogen as fuel is only marginally safer than using nitroglycerine as fuel.

[PChi]

Hydrogen supplied fuel cell cars have been around a while in limited quantities and I don't recall any Hindenberg type disasters. With reasonably priced fuel cell cars being available in the near future there is now a real incentive to find ways of seperating hydrogen. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-29830687

[Phaedrus]

One thing I think a lot of Europeans and Ozzies misunderstand about America is how much we have actually invested in renewable energy. Drive down I-10/I-20 through west Texas to southern California and you will see thousands of windmills, and several experimental solar plants. More and more businesses are adopting rooftop solar, and more and more infrastructure like street lights, traffic signals, wifi hotspots, etc. are being powered by solar panels with battery backup.

There's a lot of opposition from conservative twat waffles, but the US is greening at a much more rapid pace than many foreigners give us credit for.

[ConKbot]

One thing I think a lot of Europeans and Ozzies misunderstand about America is how much we have actually invested in renewable energy. Drive down I-10/I-20 through west Texas to southern California and you will see thousands of windmills, and several experimental solar plants. More and more businesses are adopting rooftop solar, and more and more infrastructure like street lights, traffic signals, wifi hotspots, etc. are being powered by solar panels with battery backup.

There's a lot of opposition from conservative twat waffles, but the US is greening at a much more rapid pace than many foreigners give us credit for.

Shhh now, dont ruin it for the people that say "lol our country did xyz for the WHOLE COUNTRY, how about you America?" When their country is only the size of Mississippi :p

[zapta]

Also maintenance on those cars is problematic. you still need mechanics and other complicated services. not so with a pure electric. it has 5 moving parts. maintenance is virtually nonexisting.

Only give parts? Do they have stationary wipers and fixed wheels?

[tom66]

--Ah yes those twicky twicky big oil companies. Now instead of overcharging the poor for fuel, they have dropped the price of petroleum in a transparent effort to kill the EV in its cradle, and to promote the evil lie that something called marketplace economics exists. Marketplace economics in case you do not know is the big lie told by the evil bankers and large corporations, that insists that something called "supply and demand" has an effect on prices. This is pure capitalist poppycock, as everyone knows that governments can determine price levels by fiat just like Putler does, God bless him.

Fuel prices have been steady in the UK for the past year, but they shot up about 5 years ago from about 85p/litre to 130p/litre. They've remained more or less the same. No one is saying fuel companies are dropping prices to discourage EV adoption (which costs about 3p/mile, compared to about 15p/mile for an efficient petrol car) - if anything, they're doing the complete opposite! They'd have to massively drop prices to even begin competing with the low-cost per-mile rate of EVs, although currently EVs would cost more compared to the cheapest cars, simply because they cost so much more upfront. Not so much of an issue with a Tesla which is pointed at the luxury end of the market, but hard to justify for a basic Nissan Leaf.

Hydrogen fuel ends up costing about the same as petrol per mile - and since it's fundamentally based on natural gas reformation - it's linked to the price of crude oil, which is likely to simply increase. Oh, and it's not green, as CO2 is released during this process. Nor is it cheap to operate, or particularly fast to refill, and it offers lacklustre performance - the Mirai has a 85kW fuel cell, which limits continuous power exertion. It has a hybrid battery pack to supplement fuel cell output and increase acceleration, but of course this can't supply continuous power draw.

If oil companies truly wanted to get HFCEVs on the road quickly, they'd drop the price of hydrogen considerably. However they probably don't want to do this as hydrogen has a high market value. This could lead to people filling up purely to resell it.

The fuel  cell in modern HFCEVs costs about $500 per kW as well... it is not a cheap part... and it is only rated for around 5,000 hours to 1/2 power output.

[miguelvp]

You must be kidding. Take a look at your electricity price.

Maybe it's different in American English, but in English "shitty" means dirty. As in, American pollutes a lot. It wallows in its own filth.

Anyway, our quality of living is generally better and we have free healthcare. You may have cheap electricity, but you pay for it in other ways. The result is worse, you just externalized the costs from your electricity bill.

Oh, more anti-American sentiment from you, how creative!

Go help the Japanese economy, it's in an all time low, and energy is at it's highest price.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/21/world/asia/japans-economic-woes-cast-new-doubt-on-abenomics.html

[ovnr]

I really don't get why they bother. Hydrogen fuel cells are like the bastard child of EVs and ICEVs - the disadvantages of both with none of the advantages. You still need to move fuel around physically, but it also takes a good while to refuel - plus it's finicky and has more risks than either petrol or batteries. You can essentially use electricity as fuel (electrolysis of water), but it's so inefficient that there's nearly no point - plus the losses in the fuel cell itself.

Plus it's a immature technology, and I'll be laughing my ass off when someone ships a bad batch of fuel cells that fails in the field after a year or so.


No, I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but there are certainly "industry pressures" that is keeping the pipe dream alive, not good sense.

[abaxas]

Sorry for the bit an anti american here......

Only in the states would they design electric cars that were less green than the gas guzzlers they replaced.

Drive a small capacity petrol if you actually want to lower co2.

[tom66]

Sounds reasonable, if a rather big engineering challenge. One day it may well happen though, as the satellite-to-ground microwave energy technology is being developed for space based solar in Japan. Once you have that, it's more a question of why not than why.

At least we wouldn't have to deal with the NIMBYs any more!

[zapta]

I will try to stop at Fry's today, there is a third brand that I wasn't too check.