Trump's trade war with China

[blueskull]

Google has an easy solution. It shows whatever territory China wishes as belonging to China to people in China, but not to the rest of the world. You get the same map, but with different borders depending on where you are.

Google did, but then Google decided to play the hard ball and got kicked from China. Now, only Google DNS is up, all other Google services are down in China.

[ogden]

Google did, but then Google decided to play the hard ball and got kicked from China.

Unfair, huh? - What about foreign companies that are struggling to protect their intellectual property in courts of China? What about workers who lost their jobs just because some manufacturer in China illegally copied product of company they work for?

[blueskull]

Unfair, huh? - What about foreign companies that are struggling to protect their intellectual property in courts of China? What about workers who lost their jobs just because some manufacturer in China illegally copied product of company they work for?

Define IP. The Chinese business model of simply cloning things exactly had long gone. Now what we do is called secondary innovation, which means to clone an idea with our own engineering.

Granted, there are still a lot of small companies which don't have the engineering force to do secondary innovation, but most big players in China stopped cloning things 1:1 for many years.

Ideas are not patentable in China. You can only patentable something with solid implementation method and patent this method. Therefore, most patents in China can be legally avoided or even nullified. There are some legally sound patents that are hard to attack, such as those from big licensing companies such as SD and MPEG LA, but we just fuck them. They are being fucked worldwide, not only in China.

[Selectech]

https://www.pri.org/stories/2014-02-18/us-complains-other-nations-are-stealing-us-technology-america-has-history

There's more than a few skeletons in their closet.

[ogden]

Define IP.

Wikipedia is good enough. [edit] if you can read it from China.

The Chinese business model of simply cloning things exactly had long gone. Now what we do is called secondary innovation, which means to clone an idea with our own engineering.

Oh, come on. Secondary or "white room" invention is just another another way to name stealing. I am direct victim of so called "chinese secondary innovation" which "innovated" copy of western product including all it's engineering errors so please don't BS your propaganda.

[Mr. Scram]

https://www.pri.org/stories/2014-02-18/us-complains-other-nations-are-stealing-us-technology-america-has-history

There's more than a few skeletons in their closet.

The history of supersonic flight is another interesting story. The US basically got the technology from the UK, conveniently declining to return the favour although that was previously agreed upon. In hindsight it's likely there was little that could have been traded. They simply wanted to copy the British research.

"In 1942, the United Kingdom's Ministry of Aviation began a top secret project with Miles Aircraft to develop the world's first aircraft capable of breaking the sound barrier. The project resulted in the development of the prototype turbojet-powered Miles M.52, designed to reach 1,000 miles per hour (870 kn; 1,600 km/h) (over twice the existing airspeed record) in level flight, and to climb to an altitude of 36,000 ft (11 km) in 1 min 30 sec.

By 1944, design of the M.52 was 90% complete and Miles was told to go ahead with the construction of three prototypes. Later that year, the Air Ministry signed an agreement with the United States to exchange high-speed research and data. Miles' Chief Aerodynamicist Dennis Bancroft stated that Bell Aircraft was given access to the drawings and research on the M.52,[2] but the U.S. reneged on the agreement and no data was forthcoming in return."

[blueskull]

which "innovated" copy of western product including all it's engineering errors

That's not what we call secondary innovation. That's what we call larceny.

Secondary innovation only copies feature set, form factor, user experience and market segmentation. All engineering shall be done in house with own technology.

As a result, secondary innovated products should look nothing like the original in terms of actual implementation. If not, that's larceny.

You can sue a Chinese company directly copying your design as long as you have a sales network in China. Chinese law says you can't enforce your UP rights in China if you don't sell or own a subsidiary in China, but if you have a tax paying sales outlet in China, you can sue whomever clones your engineering.

[james_s]

The problem of "borrowing" someone else's work instead of inventing it yourself is that you're always one step behind and lacking the understanding to correct a lot of the problems that come up. The Soviets ran into this many times during the cold war. They certainly had sharp people capable of developing similar homegrown technology but they didn't seem to know how to utilize them.

[ogden]

You can sue a Chinese company directly copying your design as long as you have a sales network in China.

Apple lost China court in exactly such case.

[blueskull]

You can sue a Chinese company directly copying your design as long as you have a sales network in China.

Apple lost China court in exactly such case.

What's wrong? Apple used a Chinese trademark which was filed before Apple, and hence they pay the original trademark owner. Sounds good to me.

China doesn't participate international trademark alliance, so even if Apple rolls out iPhone in 07, if they didn't trademark it in China, another person can still trademark it in China.

China doesn't recognize any foreign trademarks unless registered in China. China doesn't recognize any foreign patents unless it was filed under CPT, which is a patent alliance China participates, or if it is filed in China.

The only IP that China unconditionally and globally recognizes is copyright.

[Mr. Scram]

The problem of "borrowing" someone else's work instead of inventing it yourself is that you're always one step behind and lacking the understanding to correct a lot of the problems that come up. The Soviets ran into this many times during the cold war. They certainly had sharp people capable of developing similar homegrown technology but they didn't seem to know how to utilize them.

I understand your view is skewed through your upbringing, but this happened on both sides.

[ogden]

As a result, secondary innovated products should look nothing like the original in terms of actual implementation. If not, that's larceny.

In theory. In practice - western company do not have chances in Chinese court and result usually is closure of business and obvious unemployment of workers.

[james_s]

The problem of "borrowing" someone else's work instead of inventing it yourself is that you're always one step behind and lacking the understanding to correct a lot of the problems that come up. The Soviets ran into this many times during the cold war. They certainly had sharp people capable of developing similar homegrown technology but they didn't seem to know how to utilize them.

I understand your view is skewed through your upbringing, but this happened on both sides.

I'm sure it did to some extent, although I can't think of any major American aircraft or spacecraft that were blatant copies of Soviet designs, while there are multiple examples of the reverse.

As I mentioned, I don't think it's due to a lack of talent, but rather the overall political climate was not conducive to innovation and experimentation.

[Mr. Scram]

I'm sure it did to some extent, although I can't think of any major American aircraft or spacecraft that were blatant copies of Soviet designs, while there are multiple examples of the reverse.

As I mentioned, I don't think it's due to a lack of talent, but rather the overall political climate was not conducive to innovation and experimentation.

I mentioned the Bell X-1 a few posts back. That technology has been pretty much engineered by the British. Of course, there are plenty of examples where technology was "inspired" by or stolen from other nations like the Soviet Union, including those featured in the Space Race. Remember that the US was playing catch up throughout almost all of it. Some say the Apollo 1 disaster happened because the US scientists thought the Soviets used a pure oxygen atmosphere inside their spacecraft. The Soviet did indeed do this, but stopped doing so after an accident strikingly similar to the Apollo 1 fire. The US only learned about that in 1986.

https://www.popsci.com/cias-bold-kidnapping-soviet-spacecraft
https://www.quora.com/How-did-Soviet-and-US-military-technology-compare

[blueskull]

As a result, secondary innovated products should look nothing like the original in terms of actual implementation. If not, that's larceny.

In theory. In practice - western company do not have chances in Chinese court and result usually is closure of business and obvious unemployment of workers.

In practice, Chinese clones Chinese as well. When you have a country with 1.3 billions of very high IQ and very low moral standard population with state slogan once being "regardless white cat or black cat, the cat that catches the mice is the good cat", no one can stop IP theft. There's nothing the government can do at all. Their dictatorship is just a bluff.

I can, if I want, start a small company stealing technology from a state owned privileged company and still get around because there are tens of thousands of "me" around that they don't even know which one to sue first.

In China, law doesn't apply to small players. They are just too small to find and bust. Big companies follow the laws and have an army of lawyers and consultants. Small players won't even bother hiring a lawyer at all.

If you design something that may end up in China, use some clever firmware tricks and use a hard to decrypt mcu. This is the only way to prevent someone from cloning your product.

[ogden]

If you design something that may end up in China, use some clever firmware tricks and use a hard to decrypt mcu. This is the only way to prevent someone from cloning your product.

Right. Also do not let your Chinese partners to visit your factory/office.

[rhb]

I've not followed this thread, but I'd like to offer a comment.

The USA made the electronics industry in China possible.  Nixon's relaxation of trade sanctions and American tax law subsidized  American investment in China.  It is the greatest gift any people have made to another country.  I am pleased we did it.  China suffered at the hands of the European powers and the Japanese for a long time.  The British fought a war to ensure they could sell opium in China.  Imagine if Mexico or Columbia did that.

We have brought China forward to the point that they are a serious commercial and military rival.  We have provided enough aid.  Our task is done.

Now we need to build a Shenzen in the USA.

I hope this won't cross the "no politics" rules for EEVblog.

I am an American. My father's family came here in 1635 from England.  My mother came here in 1944 from Sweden.  The revitalization of  China by American trade is one of the few things we have done that I am proud of.  Mostly we seem to start embarrassingly stupid wars.

[Mr. Scram]

I've not followed this thread, but I'd like to offer a comment.

The USA made the electronics industry in China possible.  Nixon's relaxation of trade sanctions and American tax law subsidized  American investment in China.  It is the greatest gift any people have made to another country.  I am pleased we did it.  China suffered at the hands of the European powers and the Japanese for a long time.  The British fought a war to ensure they could sell opium in China.  Imagine if Mexico or Columbia did that.

We have brought China forward to the point that they are a serious commercial and military rival.  We have provided enough aid.  Our task is done.

Now we need to build a Shenzen in the USA.

I hope this won't cross the "no politics" rules for EEVblog.

I am an American. My father's family came here in 1635 from England.  My mother came here in 1944 from Sweden.  The revitalization of  China by American trade is one of the few things we have done that I am proud of.  Mostly we seem to start embarrassingly stupid wars.

Do you have any numbers to support that notion? I don't really think China depended on US to get where it is right now. It's a significant business partner, but the EU is too and actually surpasses the US. Of course, both China and Japan own large amounts of US debt, but I don't think that's related.

The following page doesn't seem to mention it either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_and_industrial_history_of_China

[blueskull]

Do you have any numbers to support that notion? I don't really think China depended on US to get where it is right now. It's a significant business partner, but the EU is too and actually surpasses the US. Of course, both China and Japan own large amounts of US debt, but I don't think that's related.

Just look at Chinese standards. Older, well established standards, such as mains voltage, mains frequency, PAL video format, etc., are from East Germany through USSR, which eventually became EU standard.
Then, in the early 90s during the wake of Tiananmen square incident and the West stopped to export high tech to China, China partnered with Japan. That's why many standards (discrete transistors, material science, textiles, etc.) developed in that era were similar or identical to Japanese ones.
In the new century, as China joins WTO and buys US debt like crazy, many US technology got imported to China again, including networking, computing and similar digital stuff, and thus many new Chinese standards are similar to US standards.

So while Chinese technologies are not 100% based on US ones, but many later ones after the honeymoon period between China and Japan has ended, are.

As for why China and Japan can't get along well forever, well, it's a nation level hatred.
Chinese people can get along with Japanese people and Korean people, and vise versa. But Chinese government always have this hatred to Japanese government on Japan invasion, so does Korean government. It's a political stunt to gain public support.
Economically, China, Japan and Korea form a very strong alliance, but politically we just can't get along. China can get along with South Korea, but neither can get along with Japan politically.

[all_repair]

If you design something that may end up in China, use some clever firmware tricks and use a hard to decrypt mcu. This is the only way to prevent someone from cloning your product.

Right. Also do not let your Chinese partners to visit your factory/office.

Apply to all your partners, not limited to a particular cpuntry.  Except some is rich enough to buy you out because the trouble of cloning is too slow and too uncertain.

[rhb]

Do you have any numbers to support that notion? I don't really think China depended on US to get where it is right now. It's a significant business partner, but the EU is too and actually surpasses the US. Of course, both China and Japan own large amounts of US debt, but I don't think that's related.

The following page doesn't seem to mention it either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_and_industrial_history_of_China

Wikipedia is *not* an authoritative reference.

Look at where China was after The Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution.  Were it not for Nixon neither the US nor the EU would have traded with China. The USA was not the only contributor to China's prosperity, but we led the way and contributed a lot.

As blueskull notes quite correctly, it's a complicated and messy picture.  As a practical matter, China, Japan and South Korea all need each other
as do the other countries in the area.

China has advanced to the point where it is causing serious pain in working class America.  That needs to be fixed. But China can stand on its own in any company now.  That is a good thing.   Of course, their one carrier group is going to go play footsie with three of ours which will doubtless be a bit intimidating when we run a launch and recovery operation.  But the Chinese admirals aren't under any illusions, at least from what I've read of their statements. It takes well  over 20 years of practice to be able to do this to American standards.

I'm personally pleased that the USA is no longer the only major power.  It led to very foolish behaviors by our politicians.

As for the "trade war" , "The Donald" is just negotiating in the crass manner to which he is accustomed.  It's ugly, boorish and unpleasant, but it seems to work which is more than many of his predecessors can claim.

[Mr. Scram]

Wikipedia is *not* an authoritative reference.

Look at where China was after The Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution.  Were it not for Nixon neither the US nor the EU would have traded with China. The USA was not the only contributor to China's prosperity, but we led the way and contributed a lot.

As blueskull notes quite correctly, it's a complicated and messy picture.  As a practical matter, China, Japan and South Korea all need each other
as do the other countries in the area.

China has advanced to the point where it is causing serious pain in working class America.  That needs to be fixed. But China can stand on its own in any company now.  That is a good thing.   Of course, their one carrier group is going to go play footsie with three of ours which will doubtless be a bit intimidating when we run a launch and recovery operation.  But the Chinese admirals aren't under any illusions, at least from what I've read of their statements. It takes well  over 20 years of practice to be able to do this to American standards.

I'm personally pleased that the USA is no longer the only major power.  It led to very foolish behaviors by our politicians.

As for the "trade war" , "The Donald" is just negotiating in the crass manner to which he is accustomed.  It's ugly, boorish and unpleasant, but it seems to work which is more than many of his predecessors can claim.

Wikipedia is more authoritative than a random internet user. I wouldn't base testimony on it, but it's plenty good for most intents and purposes.

How are Trumps negotiating tactics working? So far people have only rattled their keys to appease the crying politician. Even his own staff is continuously fleeing the ship. That doesn't really seem to convey trust and successful leadership. People love to party with a winner, but there don't seem to be many people partying yet.

China is expertly countering the issue, as it knows Trump's weak spot are his rural supporters. That's why they imposed sanctions that hit this group hardest. Now it's a two-front war for Trump. Moving forward and moving back now both hurt. China won't be so stupid to go to actual war either. It owns too much of the US to shoot it to bits. You don't throw rocks at your own windows. Conversely, China can economically hurt the US much harder than it can military. Why bother starting a painful military conflict?

[hermit]

China holds a lot of US debt in government bonds so they can't be too brutal.  I would imagine they are playing the long game and can hurt the US economy now and wait for him to go.

[all_repair]

There is no such thing as USA helping China, or China helping USA on trade.  They help themselves as it is done on a willing seller and willing buyer basis.  They are buying at the best price and selling on the best price.  The media propoganda is misleading people.  Trade deficit is a not bad thing but you need to spend less than what you make so end up you have a plus or a balance.  If you spend more than you make, it is not the supermart fault or mouser fault, it is your fault.  USA problems that brought Trump is the distribution of wealth, you dont blame the place that the USA factories relocated to, you have to see why and what made these factories relocate.  It is the policy that the politicians created that allowed or encouraged that.  The other biggest problem is instead of investing 5.6 trillion dollars on development, infrastructure,  education or something more productive, USA has wasted 5.6 trillions on wars since 911. 

[VK3DRB]

You are right. It is all about money. Demonstrated by the USA Presidents and their overseas lapdogs who have banned trade with Cuba until they have free elections, and yet trade with the Chinese and Vietnamese communist regimes. Yes, who cares about ethics or justice when there is money to be made.