Trump's trade war with China

[bitwelder]

I was reading an article about the new 25% tariffs that Trumps wants to put on 1300+ products/items from China, and luckily there was a link to the document.
Included in the list, apart of industrial equipments, steel/iron/aluminum there is also a lot of electronic testing gear and also components like:

85322100 ........... Tantalum fixed capacitors
85322200 ........... Aluminum electrolytic fixed capacitors
85322300 ........... Ceramic dielectric fixed capacitors, single layer
85322400 ........... Ceramic dielectric fixed capacitors, multilayer
85322500 ........... Dielectric fixed capacitors of paper or plastics
85322900 ........... Fixed electrical capacitors, nesi
85323000 ........... Variable or adjustable (pre-set) electrical capacitors
85329000 ........... Parts of electrical capacitors, fixed, variable or adjustable (pre-set)
85331000 ........... Electrical fixed carbon resistors, composition or film types
85332100 ........... Electrical fixed resistors, other than composition or film type carbon resistors, for a power handling capacity not exceeding 20 W
85332900 ........... Electrical fixed resistors, other than composition or film type carbon resistors, for a power handling capacity exceeding 20 W
85333100 ........... Electrical wirewound variable resistors, including rheostats and potentiometers, for a power handling capacity not exceeding 20 W
85334040 ........... Metal oxide resistors
...
85412100 ........... Transistors, other than photosensitive transistors, with a dissipation rating of less than 1 W
85412900 ........... Transistors, other than photosensitive transistors, with a dissipation rating of 1 W or more
85413000 ........... Thyristors, diacs and triacs, other than photosensitive devices
85414020 ........... Light-emitting diodes (LED's)
85414070 ........... Photosensitive transistors
85414080 ........... Photosensitive semiconductor devices nesi, optical coupled isolators
85414095 ........... Photosensitive semiconductor devices nesi, other
85415000 ........... Semiconductor devices other than photosensitive semiconductor devices, nesi
85416000 ........... Mounted piezoelectric crystals

https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/files/Press/Releases/301FRN.pdf

[PChi]

It's nothing new. Clive Sinclair complained  that the import duties on components were higher than those for completed products penalising home manufactured 'computers' like the Spectrum. I don't know what the duties are for importing into the EU these days.

[CJay]

The original Raspberry Pi was claimed to have been made outside the UK because import duties on the components needed made it uneconomical to assemble in the UK, utter insanity because the government often complains about the lack of hi tech manufacturing in the country but stifle it with tariffs.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/03/01/raspberry-pi-and-insane-trade-rules/#2dfd55721c2e

[Ampera]

Perhaps a better idea, since this is I am assuming a ham-fisted attempt to bring industry back to the US, is to have no tariffs on imported components, but to have these high tariffs on completed items. That way China's industry would be more economically likely to make individual components at their cheap prices, while the US works on final assembly. If a tariff has to be put in place on anything, that should be it.

I'm not a republican nor a conservative, but I do believe that large imports of manufactured and completed goods from China is a dual edged sword. On one hand it means cheap stuff for us, but it also means that companies are less likely to set up shop here.

Economics is a tricky business. Working on a macro-economical scale in my view is like Jenga. If you play your cards right, you may end up building a large tower, but make a bad move, and everything collapses.

[all_repair]

I have a huge trade deficit with my supermarket, with digikey, and with those that I buy their stuff.   What I am going to do?
No double edge sword.  I am not stupid, they gave me the best deal in town, and as Iong as I don't spend beyond my means, they are giving me what I do not have and helping me.   If I am spending more than I make then the problem is with me, not digikey.  Taxing digikey more at my doorstep, just make me buy from mouser.

[BrianHG]

The original Raspberry Pi was claimed to have been made outside the UK because import duties on the components needed made it uneconomical to assemble in the UK, utter insanity because the government often complains about the lack of hi tech manufacturing in the country but stifle it with tariffs.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/03/01/raspberry-pi-and-insane-trade-rules/#2dfd55721c2e

After reading that, it like the government has taxed everything backwards.  They tax the imported components, so small business cant by components and have a local jobs manufacturing and assembling a final product for sale.  Yet, they don't tax finished consumer products giving an unfair advantage to all foreign manufacturers.

As for the 1998 loophole, they made it impossible, or more costly to achieve than just buying foreign finished manufactured products, or, you must be large enough to have ins in the government.

[Mr. Scram]

Perhaps a better idea, since this is I am assuming a ham-fisted attempt to bring industry back to the US, is to have no tariffs on imported components, but to have these high tariffs on completed items. That way China's industry would be more economically likely to make individual components at their cheap prices, while the US works on final assembly. If a tariff has to be put in place on anything, that should be it.

I'm not a republican nor a conservative, but I do believe that large imports of manufactured and completed goods from China is a dual edged sword. On one hand it means cheap stuff for us, but it also means that companies are less likely to set up shop here.

Economics is a tricky business. Working on a macro-economical scale in my view is like Jenga. If you play your cards right, you may end up building a large tower, but make a bad move, and everything collapses.

You can steer economy, but not work against it. If setting up shop locally isn't viable due to wages being too high, no importing tariffs are going to change that. At best you give yourself a disadvantage, because what costs your neighbours x to do costs your citizens x + y due to the tariffs or higher wages needing to be compensated.

[Ampera]

You can steer economy, but not work against it. If setting up shop locally isn't viable due to wages being too high, no importing tariffs are going to change that. At best you give yourself a disadvantage, because what costs your neighbours x to do costs your citizens x + y due to the tariffs or higher wages needing to be compensated.

Which is why I suggested only taxing finished products. What costs your neighbors x + y to do, only costs your citizens within a small distance of x to do.

[jpanhalt]

Basically, I like and agree with your idea.  Remember first, that President Trump doesn't handle the details of the tariffs, nor would any President.

Second, taxing "finished" product only presents a problem: How do you define in a legally solid sense a finished product?  You and I know what that means in our gut, but what if the product is shipped without a UL tag and the finishing is simply attaching that tag (an exaggeration, but hopefully you see the point).  Both sides have clever lawyers.  It has been done in the past.

[Mr. Scram]

Which is why I suggested only taxing finished products. What costs your neighbors x + y to do, only costs your citizens within a small distance of x to do.

How would that work? Your neighbours can buy a product for x from China, while your citizens have to pay x + y for import tariffs or x + z to compensate for higher wages. However it pans out, your citizens are at a disadvantage compared to citizens of your neighbours. If you do it across the range, your citizens will have less purchasing power and companies depending on these products will be less competitive. Trying to compete by disadvantaging yourself isn't very viable. Any tariff you levy will be paid for by your citizens and none other.

Besides, industries that only exist by virtue of being protected haven't been very successful in the long run in the past.

[tautech]

2 threads on the same subject ? 
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/trade-wars-china-vs-us-leads-to-a-price-hike-for-ee-related-staff!/

[Mr. Scram]

2 threads on the same subject ? 
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/trade-wars-china-vs-us-leads-to-a-price-hike-for-ee-related-staff!/

That one's about staff.

[coppice]

The original Raspberry Pi was claimed to have been made outside the UK because import duties on the components needed made it uneconomical to assemble in the UK, utter insanity because the government often complains about the lack of hi tech manufacturing in the country but stifle it with tariffs.

You've got to protect that local component industry that went away long ago. 

[edy]

Economics is a complex system and trying to control it using tariffs not only stifles innovation but also competition and ultimately results in consumers paying the price. Now, that does not mean China or anyone else gets to play by their own rules and dumps cheap garbage on the world markets using state-controlled currencies and controlling their own markets and keeping internal goods cheap enough to allow Chinese labor to survive on pennies per day while labor around the rest of the world finds their standard of living dropping due to inflation. Like I said, economics is a complicated game. Trump has to start somewhere... I'm sure it is not the best approach but he is not listening to the experts around him.

Let us already keep in mind that the relative stability of our standard of living and cost of a "basket of goods" and salaries, with control of inflation, has been also helped by continuing to purchase cheap Chinese (and other foreign) goods. You want to buy running shoes 3x per year? At $25 a pair... Then it will be made in China. That means your dollars go further, you get you "stuff" and live "big" and don't need a raise in your salary, your dollar continues to go the distance. What happens when you cannot buy cheap stuff...

1. Get used to buying less and fixing it/repairing it when it breaks
2. Start asking your boss for a raise because everything costs more and you can't afford the standard of living you were used to
3. The value of that dollar doesn't go as far every month and together with #2 results in inflationary pressure
4. You get less choice and have to buy more costly domestic products that may not be that good
5. Local manufacturers may have trouble with meeting production levels
6. Environmental and energy costs also will factor in to more expensive goods

I don't know what the answer is, but slapping tariffs on things will possibly marginally improve a few specific US industries, decimate others (that rely on exports), and overall disadvantage the working-class consumer public who just wants to eat, watch sports, BBQ, drive their big cars and has relied on cheap Chinese goods from Wal-Mart for keeping themselves satisfied since they can remember.

[tautech]

2 threads on the same subject ? 
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/trade-wars-china-vs-us-leads-to-a-price-hike-for-ee-related-staff!/

That one's about staff.

Really ?
So you just read the subject line ? 

[Ampera]

I would define an unfinished product as an item unusable as a home, commercial, or industrial appliance without combination of other parts in a factory environment to produce a finished product.

Catch clauses like requiring operational components to be added, instead of just a superficial change could be another idea.

As for other nations not having similar tariffs, I believe that is the greatest flaw of imposing one as well, however the US is China's largest importer of manufactured goods, so the US's sheer size compared to it's neighbors might be enough to save us from that. Keep in mind the US has the population of around 5 United Kingdoms. Other ideas could include tariff partnerships, so the big boy is kicked over, leaving Europe, and the US to compete on their own for industry.

Western trade IS China's economic lifeline. If it is removed, there is little to nothing they do besides potential threats or diplomatic actions to prevent an industry-crushing tariff to be imposed. Not to mention, we're still only talking about finished products, so China would still have a massive component industry.

@edy

I believe these products can still be made cheaply, as I do not believe slapping some components together to make a hair dryer is as expensive as the cost of harvesting the raw materials, engaging in specialized processes to manufacture them.

I do also believe in a repair society over a throw-away society. It's just a better concept, so if that's one thing that might be gained by having more expensive products, I consider that a bonus.

Ultimately, we're weathermen trying to predict the future, and while we can see which way the winds are blowing, a butterfly in Brazil may set off a tornado in Texas.

[Mr. Scram]

So you just read the subject line ? 

Initial filtering is done based on subject, yes. I presume most people on the forums do this.

[edy]

@edy

I believe these products can still be made cheaply, as I do not believe slapping some components together to make a hair dryer is as expensive as the cost of harvesting the raw materials, engaging in specialized processes to manufacture them.

I do also believe in a repair society over a throw-away society. It's just a better concept, so if that's one thing that might be gained by having more expensive products, I consider that a bonus.

Ultimately, we're weathermen trying to predict the future, and while we can see which way the winds are blowing, a butterfly in Brazil may set off a tornado in Texas.

I too would prefer a repair society but I think we need a fundamental change in the consumerist mentality of the population. Let's look at what I think would be a more ideal situation:

1. locally designed and manufactured goods that are QUALITY
2. design allowing for repair and upgrades
3. reduced "product cycling" and longer functional lifetimes for products
4. less waste as a result, less impact on the environment, more recycling
5. higher cost for goods but a concomitant increase in lifespan (lifetime/cost ratio some or increases... i.e. 2x cost but 3x product life)
6. better care for your devices/products, less "hording" and less accumulating for the sake of "sales"

That would require a paradigm-shift of the consumerist mentality that the modern capitalist economy functions on. We have a population and marketplace that is good at selling cheap products that break easily that cannot be repaired, that need to be trashed, sent back to China for recycling or landfill and then sold again and again. We buy the same $25 toaster every year when a $50 toaster built better could last 5 years, or $25 shoes that get holes in them in 1 year when $75 ones made better could last 5 years. Or $600 TV that lasts 5 years versus $1000 TV that lasts 15 years. There is a different issue altogether on whether we should be using the same running shoes for 5 years, or expect TV's to be functionally useful after 15 years... but that is another story. The point is that some products CAN be made to last a long time and still be relevant many more years than their current "expiry" dates from China due to inferior design or quality materials/components.

Given a free economy, the mass consumerist public and corporations who want to maximize profits have chosen the Chinese route.... Let's face it. Wall-street doesn't like this (tarrifs) one bit. They are not about local employment, they are about maximum profit and that means making stuff as cheap as possible, selling as much of it as possible and churning the wheel of economy as fast as possible, increasing waste and killing the planet in the process.

[Mr. Scram]

I would define an unfinished product as an item unusable as a home, commercial, or industrial appliance without combination of other parts in a factory environment to produce a finished product.

Catch clauses like requiring operational components to be added, instead of just a superficial change could be another idea.

As for other nations not having similar tariffs, I believe that is the greatest flaw of imposing one as well, however the US is China's largest importer of manufactured goods, so the US's sheer size compared to it's neighbors might be enough to save us from that. Keep in mind the US has the population of around 5 United Kingdoms. Other ideas could include tariff partnerships, so the big boy is kicked over, leaving Europe, and the US to compete on their own for industry.

Western trade IS China's economic lifeline. If it is removed, there is little to nothing they do besides potential threats or diplomatic actions to prevent an industry-crushing tariff to be imposed. Not to mention, we're still only talking about finished products, so China would still have a massive component industry.

@edy

I believe these products can still be made cheaply, as I do not believe slapping some components together to make a hair dryer is as expensive as the cost of harvesting the raw materials, engaging in specialized processes to manufacture them.

I do also believe in a repair society over a throw-away society. It's just a better concept, so if that's one thing that might be gained by having more expensive products, I consider that a bonus.

Ultimately, we're weathermen trying to predict the future, and while we can see which way the winds are blowing, a butterfly in Brazil may set off a tornado in Texas.

A creative interpretation of what finished product entails has been used for years. You finish a product but ship it in two completely inoperable parts. You have people combine the two parts and suddenly the part is manufactured in the country of choice. The net contribution to the economy and work force is negligible, yet you circumvent all the artificial limitations imposed.

[coppice]

You want to buy running shoes 3x per year? At $25 a pair... Then it will be made in China.

Get with the times. When did you last see a pair of $25 running shoes made in China? That work moved to Vietnam and Indonesia long ago, at about the same time most of the clothing production moved to places like Bangladesh.

[VK3DRB]

Pooh Bear better stay out of the bee hive, or he will get stung badly.

Trump has done the right thing. This isn't about the trade imbalance. This is about punishing China for shamelessly stealing US intellectual property on a massive scale. Unfortunately with such punishments, innocent people get caught up in the crossfire. A targeted attack on the criminals in the answer.... like seizing all their foreign owned property and bank balances, starting at the top.

[CJay]

A creative interpretation of what finished product entails has been used for years. You finish a product but ship it in two completely inoperable parts. You have people combine the two parts and suddenly the part is manufactured in the country of choice. The net contribution to the economy and work force is negligible, yet you circumvent all the artificial limitations imposed.

Sony Factory in south Wales, they imported assembled PCBs, tubes and cabinets which were put together and marked 'Made in the UK' for years to get around tariffs.

Simple fact of life is that when tariffs are imposed the countries targeted will retaliate and also find ways round them. It's a game you can never win because even if the tariffs can't be circumvented, all it does is make the goods your population want to buy more expensive so it pushes up wages, triggering inflation, repeat ad-nauseum.

It's a stupid idea that will have severe knock on effects but it'll make Trumplethinskin look like he's doing something worthwhile for the people who can't connect the dots between the price of their next TV, car, laptop, iPad etc. etc. and the tariffs.

[Galenbo]

... I don't know what the duties are for importing into the EU these days.

EU and/or their Vassal States steals about 26% to 64% from me when I import something significant.
"The Formula"
The same criminal organisation(s) now make propaganda about some USA-trade-war.

[ogden]

EU and/or their Vassal States steals about 26% to 64% from me when I import something significant.

Very interesting. Please tell how you came-up with such numbers, preferably by example. Also name product(s) which have 26% to 64% EU import duties.

Hint: http://madb.europa.eu/madb/euTariffs.htm

[edit] Just checked with purchase dept: electronic components import tax from China = 0%   

[Mr. Scram]

EU and/or their Vassal States steals about 26% to 64% from me when I import something significant.
"The Formula"
The same criminal organisation(s) now make propaganda about some USA-trade-war.

How terrible it must be to live in a top 20 nation in regards to living standard, wealth, safety and freedom.

[Marco]

Perhaps a better idea, since this is I am assuming a ham-fisted attempt to bring industry back to the US, is to have no tariffs on imported components, but to have these high tariffs on completed items.

From a pure mercantile perspective you do indeed want high import duties on stuff high in the value chain and high export duties on stuff low on the value chain ... but if everyone does that international trade goes to hell. In this day and age the best Mercantile states are sneaky, suppress wages through fiscal and monetary policy, use renewable energy subsidies to give energy intensive industry roundabout subsidies etc. Although China occasionally does use less savory methods as well, as in the rare earths dispute.

I think every nation should have the right to try to drive its trade towards balance though. Buffet's import certificates are probably one of the fairest ways for the USA and least likely to lead to a trade war.

[CJay]

EU and/or their Vassal States steals about 26% to 64% from me when I import something significant.

Very interesting. Please tell how you came-up with such numbers, preferably by example. Also name product(s) which have 26% to 64% EU import duties.

Hint: http://madb.europa.eu/madb/euTariffs.htm

[edit] Just checked with purchase dept: electronic components import tax from China = 0%   

It's the usual fruitcake lies about the EU that's spun out every time one of the hard right/left politicians gets worried their lack of competence might be exposed or cost them their tax because it's less damaging to blame the EU than admit they screwed up or had their snout so deep in the trough it'd need a crane and a jackhammer to get them out.

[jpanhalt]

I would define an unfinished product as an item unusable as a home, commercial, or industrial appliance without combination of other parts in a factory environment to produce a finished product.

Catch clauses like requiring operational components to be added, instead of just a superficial change could be another idea.

Apparently you did not get my point with the example.  Consider a car shipped without windshield wipers?   A car shipped without tires? Seats?  Spark plugs? ECM?  All of which are required for operation, and the list is almost endless (limited by the number of parts in a car).  Don't assume for one second manufacturers won't try to abuse it.   As I said, a legally defensible definition.  Common sense doesn't count.

[station240]

It's not just components, buried in the industrial stuff are things like.
All possible types of PCB making machines, including laser cutters

85151100 Electric soldering irons and guns
85151900 Electric brazing or soldering machines and apparatus, other than soldering irons and guns

85351000 Fuses, for a voltage exceeding 1,000 V
85361000 Fuses, for a voltage not exceeding 1,000 V
85362000 Automatic circuit breakers, for a voltage not exceeding 1,000 V
85364100 Relays for switching, protecting or making connections to or in electrical circuits, for a voltage not exceeding 60 V
85364900 Relays for switching, protecting or making connections to or in electrical circuits, for a voltage exceeding 60 but not exceeding 1,000 V
85366940 Connectors: coaxial, cylindrical multicontact, rack and panel, printed circuit, ribbon or flat cable, for a voltage not exceeding 1,000 V
85369040 Electrical terminals, electrical splicers and electrical couplings, wafer probers, for a voltage not exceeding 1,000 V

enameled copper wire, and no doubt a ton more stuff.

It's not just the tariffs, that will make things cost more, it's the huge mess implementing it. I'd expect companies to pass on the cost of implementing all this.

[hermit]

It's a stupid idea that will have severe knock on effects but it'll make Trumplethinskin look like he's doing something worthwhile for the people who can't connect the dots between the price of their next TV, car, laptop, iPad etc. etc. and the tariffs.

Not surprisingly from what I've read the retaliatory tariffs are such that it will be hard for some basic Trump supporters to ignore.  Soybean farmers are pretty much having to decide what and how much to plant right now.  Timing is everything.

[james_s]

The situation we have now is the result of a decades-long shift and anything done to try to correct it rapidly is likely to have catastrophic results. Ultimately if we want to bring manufacturing back to the US, we are going to have to get used to having less stuff and paying a lot more for it. Personally I'm ok with that, I hate the disposable society created by dirt cheap goods that everyone just throws away on a whim but you can't make a change like that quickly.

I'm just old enough to remember when something like a TV set was a major investment, I clearly remember my grandparents buying a shiny new 25" console TV that cost over $600 at a time when my grandpa probably didn't earn that much in a month from his job at the paper mill. Meanwhile my family got by with what was then considered a nice though not extravagant 19" TV and used an antenna to get a signal. The TVs are just one example of many things which were a substantial investment, people kept them for a long time, 20 years or more and when they broke down you paid someone to repair it. Unless you were rich you only had one TV in the house, or maybe the old B&W set in the bedroom. Growing up I knew *one* rich kid who's dad had a big screen TV. Now you can go to Costco or Walmart and buy a slick brand new HD 40+ inch TV for just a few hundred bucks, what was once a high end luxury item only the rich could afford is now within reach of a teenager earning minimum wage.

I think a lot of people lose sight of how insanely cheap toys and gadgets are these days, you can't have crazy cheap stuff *and* living wage jobs building that stuff, the math just doesn't work out.

[nctnico]

Did I miss an episode of 'our cartoon president'?

@james_s: bringing manufacturing back to 'the west' is a pipe dream. And even if manufacturing gets back automatisation doesn't require labour anyway so it is not generating any jobs. American made consumer products aren't very popular outside the US anyway due to quality and/or the way they look so that doesn't help much either. Actually the problem is broader than that. A lot of American companies trying to do business abroad fail because they don't understand people have different cultures and need to be approached differently. Dell and Apple got some serious penalties for not adhering to European warranty laws. Just this morning I had a run in with Americans being blissfully unaware of foreign etiquette. An American couple was talking very loud in the train while everybody else was talking quietly in order not to disturb the other passengers.

[BillB]

Did I miss an episode of 'our cartoon president'?

@james_s: bringing manufacturing back to 'the west' is a pipe dream. And even if manufacturing gets back automatisation doesn't require labour anyway so it is not generating any jobs. American made consumer products aren't very popular outside the US anyway due to quality and/or the way they look so that doesn't help much either...

I do agree that the US will never be a manufacturing powerhouse like it once was.  The US was uniquely positioned in the postwar environment to take advantage of vacuum created by the destruction of Europe's factories.  As the cost of labor rises, manufacturing will move.  When China gets too expensive, then Korea, then Malaysia, etc, it will move to Africa. 

I also agree about automation.  We'll have Flippy the burger-flipping robot before we have burger flippers making $15/hr.

I don't necessarily agree about the popularity of US made products.  We still export a decent amount of higher quality stuff.  But yes, Americans will need to get used to the idea that we aren't the only country/culture on the planet.

[mtdoc]

bringing manufacturing back to 'the west' is a pipe dream.

Unfortunately, you're probably right that, to use an Americanism, "The horse has left the barn" on most of those US manufacturing jobs.

In the end, Ross Perot really was right, although the "Giant Sucking Sound" was mostly heard to the East not the South.

[james_s]

Automation is going to be a real problem too as it displaces more and more people and I'm not really sure what to do about that. Some will say that it creates a different type of job, the people designing, installing and maintaining the automation and that's true, however those jobs are far fewer in number, far higher in required skill and the total labor cost is reduced because that's the point of having automation. At some point we are going to work a huge portion of the country out of jobs and then what? Eventually mass unemployment and a huge wealth gap could cause the whole nation to collapse, it has happened to others in the past. Technology was supposed to give us increased leisure time but it has generally failed to live up to that promise, people tend to have less time for leisure than ever before. If a person's productivity improves they don't earn more money, it just enables some other people to get laid off.

[coppice]

bringing manufacturing back to 'the west' is a pipe dream.

Manufacturing could certainly move back to the west. What can't move back is the jobs. When work moved to Asia it was a choice - do the work by machines, or do the work by Asian manual labour? Keeping the existing high labour cost plants was not an option. Asian manual labour required less up front investment than automation, so it usually won. If Asians get too expensive, and maybe Africans too, the work will be done by machines, and those machines will be in whichever places offer their owners the sweetest tax breaks and finance deals. We already see places in America scrambling to get large plants located in their municipality, which will offer very little employment. These sweet deals mean they won't pump much tax revenue into the local economy, so they really won't add anything to the local economy. They will be on US soil, though. Hurray for America!

[CopperCone]

quality is gonna go up because you can't get garbage as low a quality in the USA or anywhere else in the world if you tried 

Hopefully it will be too shameful to produce product of the same 'caliber' as china in the USA

[nctnico]

Automation is going to be a real problem too as it displaces more and more people and I'm not really sure what to do about that. Some will say that it creates a different type of job, the people designing, installing and maintaining the automation and that's true, however those jobs are far fewer in number, far higher in required skill and the total labor cost is reduced because that's the point of having automation. At some point we are going to work a huge portion of the country out of jobs and then what?

And then people realised they should have paid attention in school, kept the school system in order and make sure everyone gets a good education. The road to prosperity is paved with good education. If you don't then a country will stay or slide back into the stone age.
Getting manufacturing back is NOT the answer. It is education. The only problem is that that only helps future generations and not the current voters.

[TimNJ]

Automation is going to be a real problem too as it displaces more and more people and I'm not really sure what to do about that. Some will say that it creates a different type of job, the people designing, installing and maintaining the automation and that's true, however those jobs are far fewer in number, far higher in required skill and the total labor cost is reduced because that's the point of having automation. At some point we are going to work a huge portion of the country out of jobs and then what?

And then people realised they should have paid attention in school, kept the school system in order and make sure everyone gets a good education. The road to prosperity is paved with good education. If you don't then a country will stay or slide back into the stone age.
Getting manufacturing back is NOT the answer. It is education. The only problem is that that only helps future generations and not the current voters.

Are you talking about higher education here? Suppose all of the people who didn't pursue a college degree (and perhaps work on an assembly line somewhere) went to college instead. The net result of automation is going to be less jobs. Period. How does education help solve that problem? Sure, it might help YOU increase your odds of getting a job, but someone's gotta be unemployed...right?

Don't get me wrong, I think society would benefit enormously if a greater percentage of people were educated, but just don't see how education is the answer in this case.

[BillB]

At some point we are going to work a huge portion of the country out of jobs and then what?

Soylent Green.

The road to prosperity is paved with good education.

The world needs ditch diggers, too!

[nctnico]

And then people realised they should have paid attention in school, kept the school system in order and make sure everyone gets a good education. The road to prosperity is paved with good education. If you don't then a country will stay or slide back into the stone age.
Getting manufacturing back is NOT the answer. It is education. The only problem is that that only helps future generations and not the current voters.

Are you talking about higher education here? Suppose all of the people who didn't pursue a college degree.

I'm not talking about a college degree but at least finishing high school and learn a skill. Sure there will always be garbage to pick up and sewers to be cleaned  so those jobs will be around forever.

[BrianHG]

I'm not talking about a college degree but at least finishing high school and learn a skill. Sure there will always be garbage to pick up and sewers to be cleaned  so those jobs will be around forever.

At the pace of technology & robotics, not within our children's grandchildren's time.
Same goes for the ditch diggers comment above...

[coppice]

I'm not talking about a college degree but at least finishing high school and learn a skill. Sure there will always be garbage to pick up and sewers to be cleaned  so those jobs will be around forever.

At the pace of technology & robotics, not within our children's children time.
Same goes for the ditch diggers comment above...

Large numbers of ditches have been dug automatically for years.

[james_s]

Education is great, but the more people have college degrees, the less each of those degrees is worth and the more it costs to go to college due to high demand. It's the same with skilled trades, the way unions are able to keep wages up is through exclusion keeping a limit on the number of people practicing those trades. Any way you look at it, automation means fewer jobs, yet everybody is expected to work in order to support themselves. How do we fix this? What happens when there are simply not enough jobs required by society to support all of the members of working age who need to work? Sure we'll always need janitors and tradesmen, but how many, and for what wages? I'm not necessarily anti-automation but I think we do need to recognize the overall cost to society, some day it's going to catch up with us if we automate a large enough portion of the population out of their jobs.

[blueskull]

Education is great, but the more people have college degrees, the less each of those degrees is worth and the more it costs to go to college due to high demand.

I don't think so. Look at Sweden, I know a few YouTubers and celebrities from there, such as Simone Giertz (leave PDP alone, he's not in the scope of this thread). They have really good education and the result is a very smart society.
The same can be said for other Scandinavian countries.
This is particularly true for YouTube. While the Russians are crushing spray cans, the Scandinavians (in this case, the very dangerous Finnish) are designing and machining tools to do scientific experiments.
I also like Japan quite well. Part of the reason they can keep the innovation going is by education. Japan is the first eastern Asian country to mandate education on women and to completely eliminate illiteracy.

I do agree with you that not everyone needs a BS degree, but some sort of higher education, such as technical degrees, are needed at least.

[hermit]

Edit.  Bails out.

[nctnico]

Any way you look at it, automation means fewer jobs, yet everybody is expected to work in order to support themselves. How do we fix this? What happens when there are simply not enough jobs required by society to support all of the members of working age who need to work? Sure we'll always need janitors and tradesmen, but how many, and for what wages? I'm not necessarily anti-automation but I think we do need to recognize the overall cost to society, some day it's going to catch up with us if we automate a large enough portion of the population out of their jobs.

Actually it is far less of a problem than you'd think. Nowadays people have less kids and many people currently in their 40's and 70's are the result of the post WW2 baby boom. So for now lots of jobs are needed but in a not so distant future there will be less people to do the same amount of work.

[rfeecs]

"US is losing it's manufacturing"  Actually, we are manufacturing more than ever.  Record manufacturing GDP.
Wow, look at the chart, US is losing it's agriculture, what to do?
I wonder what all those people are doing working in "Other"?

[Brumby]

Wow, look at the chart, US is losing it's agriculture, what to do?

That chart doesn't say to me that the USA is losing its agriculture - it says its losing employment in agriculture.  With machinery that can run autonomously in tilling, harvesting and such there are increasing opportunities for a single person to program their farm.

But, to be clear, my point is that you need to be careful to extract correct information out of any statistical construct.

[Marco]

I don't think so. Look at Sweden, I know a few YouTubers and celebrities from there, such as Simone Giertz (leave PDP alone, he's not in the scope of this thread). They have really good education and the result is a very smart society.
The same can be said for other Scandinavian countries.

On the other hand, Sweden and especially Finland suffer from brain drain. As does most of Europe.

Ideally a nation has good education, strong ethnic based national identity and a language which makes learning English difficult. Finland has the first and the latter, but just like the rest of Europe the second was demolished after WW2 ... and it's just too cold.

[Echo88]

Yeah, the times before WW1 were good. You could hate the other guys across the border because you didnt understand them. Its really not your timeline.

[blueskull]

and a language which makes learning English difficult.

According to US government's language similarity chart, Chinese, Japanese and Korean are all listed level 5, which is the least similar level. Yet basically every young person in CKJ area can speak English, at least at basic level.
It will be hard to find a language that is so exclusive that its native speakers can't learn English.

National identity is just a little bit different than xenophobic, and once crossed the kinda blurry line, they are not different at all.
The extreme version of strong national identity happens between China mainland and Taiwan, and it has grown to a point that it's way beyond xenophobic.
Even only 1% is the aggressive part, 1% times 1.3 billion vs 1% times 50 million is a huge online fight, that's what is bitching over Chinese forums and BBSes every single day.

When "nation" and "ethnic" come hand in hand, holy war always follow.

[Marco]

Yeah, the times before WW1 were good. You could hate the other guys across the border because you didnt understand them. Its really not your timeline.

Balance in all things. All these European nations with unfavorable living conditions (overpopulation in my country's case, which especially hurts because of the importance of our farmers, climate for Finland) and mass immigration are in deep shit due to brain drain. All these forces are putting us in a feedback loop of increasing taxes and reduced social cohesion which in the most favorable outcome just bring us to ME level mediocrity. At the moment we're essentially providing excellent education for future Americans, Australians, Canadians etc, which might also have mass immigration ... but generally with a better class of immigrants with less barriers to assimilation (similar educational attainment, no fundamentally incompatible religions etc).

National identity is just a little bit different than xenophobic

Xenophobia is a shortcut, painting yourself into a corner against an enemy is an effective but dangerous way to unite people.

Family ties, connection to history through nationalistic tinted education (instill pride, not guilt), connection to the land from upbringing in a family which has long lived there and long lasting local and national ritualistic traditions. All these can build it as well, obviously mass immigration makes it hard to sustain though ... especially without intermarriage.

[james_s]

Is there any country today that is not overpopulated? Certainly the coastal areas of the US are massively overpopulated, maybe it wouldn't be so bad if people were distributed evenly but nobody wants to live in the middle. Same with Canada, most of the population is crammed into the coasts. Then places like China and India where as far as I know pretty much the entire country is jam packed. IMHO humans have been a little too successful for their own good.

[Marco]

It's not the same, you guys can urban sprawl without making a dent in your total land surface ... we not so much. It's even worse in Flanders. It's not Singapore or Hong Kong of course, but it's a problem nonetheless.

[MT]

Is there any country today that is not overpopulated? Certainly the coastal areas of the US are massively overpopulated, maybe it wouldn't be so bad if people were distributed evenly but nobody wants to live in the middle. Same with Canada, most of the population is crammed into the coasts. Then places like China and India where as far as I know pretty much the entire country is jam packed. IMHO humans have been a little too successful for their own good.

There are words in the grape whine among billionaire elites to actually kill off a couple of hundred
millions of other homosapiens to ease up things on the planet and as such make sure they stay in power.

Wonder if china will maintain civil order in near future or if they will start various local vars to distract
from internal turmoil. Its well known that Chinese billionaires are emigrating to Canada and other places
with that comes gentrification while western and Chinese companies are secretly importing cheap arse
labor from Vietnam.

[VK3DRB]

Education is great, but the more people have college degrees, the less each of those degrees is worth and the more it costs to go to college due to high demand.

...I do agree with you that not everyone needs a BS degree, but some sort of higher education, such as technical degrees, are needed at least.

In Australia is most of the immigrants have degrees or are getting degrees for which there are not enough jobs. As well, the government has closed a lot of the trades colleges. Hence we have too few tradesmen like plumbers who now have a license to print money. Where I live, foreigners are buying up old properties and building their McMansions at the rate of one or two in most streets at any one time. Australian electricians, plumbers, carpenters etc are laughing all the way to the bank because they have more work than they can handle, and they name their price. Compared to an electronics engineers, a plumber in my city can earn double the money. One plumber I know charges $300 to knock on your door. Fortunately, I can do almost everything myself so I don't need tradesmen. But those immigrants who were brought up with servants in their old country usually have little or no hands-on practical skills, so they must pay others to do everything like even change a tap washer and get charged accordingly.

[blueskull]

Wonder if china will maintain civil order in near future or if they will start various local vars to distract
from internal turmoil.

My bet is there should be a war against Taiwan between 2025~2030, when China has enough technology capability to manufacture all high techs nowadays being imported from the West. China will be put on the strictest export control list by the West following Sudan, Iran, Iraq and NK as soon as Beijing government declares war with Taipei government.

I analyzed the reason and situation in the other Trump vs China thread. The behavior of Xi matches what a state leader would to preparing a war -- gain complete dictatorship on speech, capital and military, as well as spending tons of money on daily use high tech research trying to gain 100% technology independence.

My guess is Beijing will have a fight with Taipei and any potential NATO forces but not touching any NATO soil and win the war. The 50 million Taiwanese people will bring a significant political instability factor to China, hence Beijing will have to declare a peace transition from communism to multi-party, and Xi will not only be the Chinese president that unites the country, but also the Chinese Boris Yeltsin.

Chinese communist party knows its time is about to come, so with or without a war, this transition is happening. Rather than being revolutionized out of power and lose possibility of gain control of Taiwan forever, it's better for CPC to gain Taiwan even if the cost is to allow Taiwanese government to peacefully take over, at least then the CPC leaders will not have to face disgrace and jail time.

The formal communist leaders will still be the ones who actually control the country for at least a few years because their corruption has gained them enough financial advantage to still have their privilege even if competing with others in a fair manner. This has been seen in Russia Federation, and I can see the same happen to China.

As time goes by, the advantage of formal communist leaders will diminish as part of the wealth redistribution, and the West will restart to invest in China, further bringing money to compete with existing oligopolies, until the market becomes truly free and open.

This could be a win-win situation, the Beijing side creates demand and less dependency on exporting, and the Taipei side gets to ragain democracy of entire China. Xi will be remembered as the one who not only united but also freed China, and he can't care much about his privilege and money in China because his off springs (a daughter, and a speculated undocumented son) are already secretly immigrated to US as of now.

Of course, there is not true win-win. Some lower rank CPC officers will lose their power at all (which could make them defect or even assassinate Xi), NK will lose its sponsor, and Russia will not be happy losing a weapon buyer and a fail safe energy (gas, oil) buyer when the West acts up. So how will this play out is an interesting thing to follow in the coming few years.

[VK3DRB]

Blueskull, you forgot one thing, "Wealth is Glorious!" proclaimed the box head Deng Xiaoping. Today (as always) the Communist Party leaders love money, face and privilege for their families too much, so there won't be any war with Taiwan as such a war will jeopardise the status quo. They need stability so that everyone "knows their place" under the lie of communism.

There is electronics company in China called Quectel. They think the war with Taiwan has already been won, as according to them Taipei is now part of Greater China. It is not a formatting mistake on their website because it is also in their printed matter. It is rather provocative... https://www.quectel.com/company/contact.htm.

[blueskull]

Blueskull, you forgot one thing, "Wealth is Glorious!" proclaimed the box head Deng Xiaoping. Today (as always) the Communist Party leaders love money, face and privilege for their families too much, so there won't be any war with Taiwan as such a war will jeopardise the status quo. They need stability so that everyone "knows their place" under the lie of communism.

That's what they want, and without Trump, that's what it is. Trump's diplomatic moves with NK and Russia have made China quite uncomfortable. What's important is that as long as NK peacefully reunites with SK and Russia stops selling weapons to China, if Trump's cards play out, China will be completely surrounded by western freedom.

China is stable because the surrounding countries which adopted western freedom are economically worse than China, so Chinese people don't envy them. Mongolia is poor, Vietnam is poor, India is poor, NK is also poor. Russia is rich, but it was traditionally a super power, so there's nothing to envy. Once western freedom and its superiority find a way to come into direct contact with Chinese people, Chinese government will soon have to face some very angry citizens.

I don't know how long will it take for the surrounding traditionally poor country to surpass China in terms of living quality, but that day is the day Chinese government goes down. For this reason, Chinese government must sabotage a nearby pawn of the West.

From the information I know based on my browsing of Chinese internet and forums, it seems like China is very close to this tipping point where another Tiananmen square incident can happen at any moment. Trump's little nudge can well light the fuse, and based form the current trade data, China has nothing to fight with US in this trade war besides some dirty tricks such as hitting defenseless farmers.

Therefore, my conclusion is if Chinese government wants to keep its power, it must fight a controllable, local physical war soon, maybe in the next one or two years, maybe with Philippines or India, for a small island or something small, but controversial soil.

Once the war breaks out, China will undergo severe import and export sanction anyway, plus the effect of creating demand from war can only last that long. Without further have a war with Taiwan or even completely with NATO, I can't see a way Chinese government can keep in power under such condition.

This is one reason why Trump is stupid and Obama is not. Obama knows not to push too far, leave the problems for the future presidents and have his 8 years peacefully and win a personal Nobel Prize. Trump doesn't. He is definitely a patriot, but he doesn't know that anything cornered can bite. The latest news that Trump proposes to tax another $100B (in addition to the previous $60B) export totally proved this.

[blueskull]

There is electronics company in China called Quectel. They think the war with Taiwan has already been won, as according to them Taipei is now part of Greater China. It is not a formatting mistake on their website because it is also in their printed matter. It is rather provocative... https://www.quectel.com/company/contact.htm.

All Chinese websites are required to list Taiwan as a Chinese province or they will be 404ed soon.
All major western companies face the same requirement too, at least for their simplified Chinese pages.
Also, major maps (Apple, MS, etc.) are required to list Taiwan and Diaoyudao (aka. Senkakusu-shima, China-Japan controversial island) as part of China, at least for their Chinese version. Google refuses to do so, and was banned.

Marriott recently made a poll or something which I don't care. The thing that matters is that Marriott listed Tibet and Taiwan both as countries, and they confirmed that they intentionally did this on Twitter, and co-twitted some Tibet separatist organisations. As a result, they've paid the price. There is a huge wave of boycotting Marriott in China and they've lost quite some business. Chinese people may not like their government, but Chinese people are very patriot in terms of anti-separatism.

[BravoV]

China is stable because the surrounding countries which adopted western freedom are economically worse than China, so Chinese people don't envy them. Mongolia is poor, Vietnam is poor, India is poor, NK is also poor. Russia is rich, but it was traditionally a super power, so there's nothing to envy. Once western freedom and its superiority find a way to come into direct contact with Chinese people, Chinese government will soon have to face some very angry citizens.

Just open a map, the ideal is to surround the whole China with Western influenced countries completely, and leaving naval and sea routes access only at East & South China Sea.

At the north side except NK, for example Japan & South Korea, these are basically Uncle Sam's puppies, whenever they were asked to bark, they will bark, so does the bitting. 

While on middle, Laos, Vietnam and Thailand basically already in the middle of converting too, the 1st sign to proof that is where Western factories are opening like wildfire there.

Now, look what happened to the constant and intense bullying & beating at NK & Myanmar at recent, say since the past decade.

Especially Myanmar, Uncle Sam is so worry if someday China managed to open up a military naval base in Myanmar, which basically The Great China containment mission failed miserably, as basically China naval & shipment route will "leak out" at south to Adamant Bay and Bay of Bengal, as this access is so strategic for resources shipments and also in war time.

Heard this story from a military General here locally when he talked in a symposium.

[blueskull]

Just open a map, the ideal is to surround the whole China with Western influenced countries completely, and leaving naval and sea routes access only at East & South China Sea.
At the north side except NK, for example Japan & South Korea, these are basically Uncle Sam's puppies, whenever they were asked to bark, they will bark, so does the bitting. 
While on middle, Laos, Vietnam and Thailand basically already in the middle of converting too, the 1st sign to proof that is where Western factories are opening like wildfire there.

Obama knows to leave a slit so Chinese government doesn't have to fight and everyone can keep the stalemate going and their life. Trump doesn't.

[VK3DRB]

China is stable because the surrounding countries which adopted western freedom are economically worse than China, so Chinese people don't envy them. Mongolia is poor, Vietnam is poor, India is poor, NK is also poor. Russia is rich, but it was traditionally a super power, so there's nothing to envy. Once western freedom and its superiority find a way to come into direct contact with Chinese people, Chinese government will soon have to face some very angry citizens.

Russia is not very rich. It is slowly becoming a basket case, partly due to sanctions, partly due to low oil prices, partly due to systemic corruption, and partly due to the thug Putin. The only thing they are good for is Svetlana valves (vacuum tubes) for us electronics enthusiasts in the West. And making nerve gas and Buk missiles.

By the way, Vietnam and Laos are communist countries. So China does have a few comrades around them, as well at the DPRK. The only remaining commo country outside Asian is Cuba.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_state#List_of_current_states_described_as_communist

[blueskull]

By the way, Vietnam and Laos are communist countries. So China does have a few comrades around them, as well at the DPRK. The only remaining commo country outside Asian is Cuba.

Vietnam is changing, along with fact that NK is showing its willing to talk to the SK, that along made China quite nervous.

[BravoV]

Trump doesn't.

Meh ... that dude is just a funny puppet, as long they feed him with an idea running the federal gov. like a family business, where all his families members, relatives, siblings had a chance to take a bite on the pie, he will be content.

Just look at his recent stunt on Jeff Bezos Amazon, easy money within days on even hours, by short selling on AMZN stock, prolly you could earn fresh & clean billions dollars in just few days if you're in the inner circle, and the best part its legal. 

[Galenbo]

How terrible it must be to live in a top 20 nation in regards to living standard, wealth, safety and freedom.

It is indeed terrible. Globalists replaced the population in our area, and pushed the original population out, so they can't afford a home anymore. Starting up u a business is de-facto more and more being forbidden too, except "services" to serve the new lords.

The rankings you saw are made up by the unelected establisment.

[Galenbo]

Very interesting. Please tell how you came-up with such numbers, preferably by example. Also name product(s) which have 26% to 64% EU import duties.

Hint: http://madb.europa.eu/madb/euTariffs.htm

[edit] Just checked with purchase dept: electronic components import tax from China = 0%   

You have a strange kind of reality. Nothing to do with the one I live in.
http://www.invoercalculator.be/

[Marco]

My guess is Beijing will have a fight with Taipei and any potential NATO forces but not touching any NATO soil and win the war.

Unless China has good supersonic cruise missile defences an actual war seems a terrible idea. It won't take an awful lot of them to cripple China's economy. They can flatten Taiwan in return, but that's a Pyrrhic victory.

[Bud]

You guys are funny. America is not brave enough to military confront China or any country that has nukes in their arsenal. Heck, they could not even do anything to tiny SK. Lies, propaganda, alienation and sanctions is all America can and will do, they are goid in that.

[Mr. Scram]

There is electronics company in China called Quectel. They think the war with Taiwan has already been won, as according to them Taipei is now part of Greater China. It is not a formatting mistake on their website because it is also in their printed matter. It is rather provocative... https://www.quectel.com/company/contact.htm.

All Chinese websites are required to list Taiwan as a Chinese province or they will be 404ed soon.
All major western companies face the same requirement too, at least for their simplified Chinese pages.
Also, major maps (Apple, MS, etc.) are required to list Taiwan and Diaoyudao (aka. Senkakusu-shima, China-Japan controversial island) as part of China, at least for their Chinese version. Google refuses to do so, and was banned.

Marriott recently made a poll or something which I don't care. The thing that matters is that Marriott listed Tibet and Taiwan both as countries, and they confirmed that they intentionally did this on Twitter, and co-twitted some Tibet separatist organisations. As a result, they've paid the price. There is a huge wave of boycotting Marriott in China and they've lost quite some business. Chinese people may not like their government, but Chinese people are very patriot in terms of anti-separatism.

Google has an easy solution. It shows whatever territory China wishes as belonging to China to people in China, but not to the rest of the world. You get the same map, but with different borders depending on where you are.

[MT]

My bet is there should be a war against Taiwan between 2025~2030, when China has enough technology capability to manufacture all high techs nowadays being imported from the West. China will be put on the strictest export control list by the West following Sudan, Iran, Iraq and NK as soon as Beijing government declares war with Taipei government.

The goal is to incorporate Taiwan, if Xi flattens Taiwan he lost, so how would he do it?

I analyzed the reason and situation in the other Trump vs China thread. The behavior of Xi matches what a state leader would to preparing a war -- gain complete dictatorship on speech, capital and military, as well as spending tons of money on daily use high tech research trying to gain 100% technology independence.

Just recently he told PLA that they "shall not fear death" and continue to "train in strategic zones", well, thats the usual words of a dictator/psychopath on his way to war.

My guess is Beijing will have a fight with Taipei and any potential NATO forces but not touching any NATO soil and win the war. The 50 million Taiwanese people will bring a significant political instability factor to China, hence Beijing will have to declare a peace transition from communism to multi-party, and Xi will not only be the Chinese president that unites the country, but also the Chinese Boris Yeltsin.

Boris Jeltsin did the opposite, he dissolved the sovjets not merging them. Some sees Xi as an "PAN Asian" nationalist sort of guy, plays on all kind of invented and real sentiments for his nationalism, hatred towards Japanese for Manchuria , the Brit's , French Asian imperialism etc , a classic way to conduct imperialism , play the role of the
insulted for prior generations pain, but is he as good as Goebbels!

Besides China is not an uniform country by any means unless an idea in the head of a Han Chinese with imperial disease.

Chinese communist party knows its time is about to come, so with or without a war, this transition is happening. Rather than being revolutionized out of power and lose possibility of gain control of Taiwan forever, it's better for CPC to gain Taiwan even if the cost is to allow Taiwanese government to peacefully take over, at least then the CPC leaders will not have to face disgrace and jail time.

All totalitarian ideologies have internal enemies or they create them. Who is going to put CPC leaders in jail?
Thats not going to happen. Just as noone is US will ever put goons Bush , Cheney, Rumsfeldt etc in jail after all they just did what deep-state told them to do, well they where part of it to. Same crap same mentality.

The formal communist leaders will still be the ones who actually control the country for at least a few years because their corruption has gained them enough financial advantage to still have their privilege even if competing with others in a fair manner. This has been seen in Russia Federation, and I can see the same happen to China.

Thats not what hapend in Russia, after US wrecked their economy during "Boris the drunk" time there was a
not to well known "cou de' etat" by the Chekists (a Russian tradition) then Putin put pressure on the new
oligarcic elite that came during Boris time but as you indicate it could turn out similar to Romania , the elites
kills of the "front face" then take over country under a new "polished" flag.

As time goes by, the advantage of formal communist leaders will diminish as part of the wealth
redistribution and the West will restart to invest in China, further bringing money to compete with existing
oligopolies , until the market becomes truly free and open.

Your constantly referring to communists , China has newer been communists per text book definition.
There have never been a 100% socialist country either, all so far have been the typical Chekist thing
an self proclaimed elite with an idea of how to get to the power and maintain it and pass on to next
generation within the family. Elits replacing elits a bunch of psychopaths rely.

What is a truly free and open market? I argue there is none and will newer be, ancient Greeks warned the future there
will be none, so far they have been right on the dot. A complete rebake of banking system is needed, will Oligarchs
accept that? Not in a million years. And west will not invest into a China that has high wages and tax. Vietnam next!

This could be a win-win situation, the Beijing side creates demand and less dependency on exporting, and the Taipei side gets to ragain democracy of entire China. Xi will be remembered as the one who not only united but also freed China, and he can't care much about his privilege and money in China because his off springs (a daughter, and
a speculated undocumented son) are already secretly immigrated to US as of now.

I doubt that scenery to play out. For example China is the biggest pork eater on the planet and the piss and shite the pigs leave is polluting China! China and fish? Well there is a reason for China's military take over of the Chinese see
to shrink wrap Taipei elites in to submission by starvation. A Marshall plan for Taiwan by US? Dont think US can afford it.

Speculated undocumented son, that suggest Xi have been dicking around, or done a "in like Flynn"!

Of course, there is not true win-win. Some lower rank CPC officers will lose their power at all (which could make them defect or even assassinate Xi), NK will lose its sponsor, and Russia will not be happy losing a weapon buyer and a fail safe energy (gas, oil) buyer when the West acts up. So how will this play out is an interesting thing to follow in the coming few years.

There we go, yes of-course there is no win win. I bet 10 american fiat money there will be an attempt to a knifeing into Ceasars back, it's traditional homo-sapiens behavior.

[Mr. Scram]

You have a strange kind of reality. Nothing to do with the one I live in.
http://www.invoercalculator.be/

I just checked. The vast majority of the amount is BTW which I think is VAT, which is something you pay to your local government and has nothing to do with the EU or importing. You pay VAT on products produced by your neighbour too.

Can you please give a specific example that shows your statement to be true?

[Mr. Scram]

It is indeed terrible. Globalists replaced the population in our area, and pushed the original population out, so they can't afford a home anymore. Starting up u a business is de-facto more and more being forbidden too, except "services" to serve the new lords.

The rankings you saw are made up by the unelected establisment.

You're apparently one of those types that believes any information that confirms his views is true and anything that opposes it is propaganda or a lie.  I suggest you travel the world a bit and see how well you're off when you live in the EU compared to almost all other parts of the world. It's certainly not perfect, but it could definitely be a lot worse.

I'm not really feeling like dealing with paranoid nightmares right now. Maybe other forum members are up for it.

[taydin]

along with fact that NK is showing its willing to talk to the SK, that along made China quite nervous.

I think NK and SK talking would result in SK distancing itself from NATO, not NK getting closer to NATO. So, regarding the NK/SK talks, it's NATO that will be losing sleep, not China and Russia. NATO will do anything in their power to sabotage a NK/SK piece.

[blueskull]

Google has an easy solution. It shows whatever territory China wishes as belonging to China to people in China, but not to the rest of the world. You get the same map, but with different borders depending on where you are.

Google did, but then Google decided to play the hard ball and got kicked from China. Now, only Google DNS is up, all other Google services are down in China.

[ogden]

Google did, but then Google decided to play the hard ball and got kicked from China.

Unfair, huh? - What about foreign companies that are struggling to protect their intellectual property in courts of China? What about workers who lost their jobs just because some manufacturer in China illegally copied product of company they work for?

[blueskull]

Unfair, huh? - What about foreign companies that are struggling to protect their intellectual property in courts of China? What about workers who lost their jobs just because some manufacturer in China illegally copied product of company they work for?

Define IP. The Chinese business model of simply cloning things exactly had long gone. Now what we do is called secondary innovation, which means to clone an idea with our own engineering.

Granted, there are still a lot of small companies which don't have the engineering force to do secondary innovation, but most big players in China stopped cloning things 1:1 for many years.

Ideas are not patentable in China. You can only patentable something with solid implementation method and patent this method. Therefore, most patents in China can be legally avoided or even nullified. There are some legally sound patents that are hard to attack, such as those from big licensing companies such as SD and MPEG LA, but we just fuck them. They are being fucked worldwide, not only in China.

[Selectech]

https://www.pri.org/stories/2014-02-18/us-complains-other-nations-are-stealing-us-technology-america-has-history

There's more than a few skeletons in their closet.

[ogden]

Define IP.

Wikipedia is good enough. [edit] if you can read it from China.

The Chinese business model of simply cloning things exactly had long gone. Now what we do is called secondary innovation, which means to clone an idea with our own engineering.

Oh, come on. Secondary or "white room" invention is just another another way to name stealing. I am direct victim of so called "chinese secondary innovation" which "innovated" copy of western product including all it's engineering errors so please don't BS your propaganda.

[Mr. Scram]

https://www.pri.org/stories/2014-02-18/us-complains-other-nations-are-stealing-us-technology-america-has-history

There's more than a few skeletons in their closet.

The history of supersonic flight is another interesting story. The US basically got the technology from the UK, conveniently declining to return the favour although that was previously agreed upon. In hindsight it's likely there was little that could have been traded. They simply wanted to copy the British research.

"In 1942, the United Kingdom's Ministry of Aviation began a top secret project with Miles Aircraft to develop the world's first aircraft capable of breaking the sound barrier. The project resulted in the development of the prototype turbojet-powered Miles M.52, designed to reach 1,000 miles per hour (870 kn; 1,600 km/h) (over twice the existing airspeed record) in level flight, and to climb to an altitude of 36,000 ft (11 km) in 1 min 30 sec.

By 1944, design of the M.52 was 90% complete and Miles was told to go ahead with the construction of three prototypes. Later that year, the Air Ministry signed an agreement with the United States to exchange high-speed research and data. Miles' Chief Aerodynamicist Dennis Bancroft stated that Bell Aircraft was given access to the drawings and research on the M.52,[2] but the U.S. reneged on the agreement and no data was forthcoming in return."

[blueskull]

which "innovated" copy of western product including all it's engineering errors

That's not what we call secondary innovation. That's what we call larceny.

Secondary innovation only copies feature set, form factor, user experience and market segmentation. All engineering shall be done in house with own technology.

As a result, secondary innovated products should look nothing like the original in terms of actual implementation. If not, that's larceny.

You can sue a Chinese company directly copying your design as long as you have a sales network in China. Chinese law says you can't enforce your UP rights in China if you don't sell or own a subsidiary in China, but if you have a tax paying sales outlet in China, you can sue whomever clones your engineering.

[james_s]

The problem of "borrowing" someone else's work instead of inventing it yourself is that you're always one step behind and lacking the understanding to correct a lot of the problems that come up. The Soviets ran into this many times during the cold war. They certainly had sharp people capable of developing similar homegrown technology but they didn't seem to know how to utilize them.

[ogden]

You can sue a Chinese company directly copying your design as long as you have a sales network in China.

Apple lost China court in exactly such case.

[blueskull]

You can sue a Chinese company directly copying your design as long as you have a sales network in China.

Apple lost China court in exactly such case.

What's wrong? Apple used a Chinese trademark which was filed before Apple, and hence they pay the original trademark owner. Sounds good to me.

China doesn't participate international trademark alliance, so even if Apple rolls out iPhone in 07, if they didn't trademark it in China, another person can still trademark it in China.

China doesn't recognize any foreign trademarks unless registered in China. China doesn't recognize any foreign patents unless it was filed under CPT, which is a patent alliance China participates, or if it is filed in China.

The only IP that China unconditionally and globally recognizes is copyright.

[Mr. Scram]

The problem of "borrowing" someone else's work instead of inventing it yourself is that you're always one step behind and lacking the understanding to correct a lot of the problems that come up. The Soviets ran into this many times during the cold war. They certainly had sharp people capable of developing similar homegrown technology but they didn't seem to know how to utilize them.

I understand your view is skewed through your upbringing, but this happened on both sides.

[ogden]

As a result, secondary innovated products should look nothing like the original in terms of actual implementation. If not, that's larceny.

In theory. In practice - western company do not have chances in Chinese court and result usually is closure of business and obvious unemployment of workers.

[james_s]

The problem of "borrowing" someone else's work instead of inventing it yourself is that you're always one step behind and lacking the understanding to correct a lot of the problems that come up. The Soviets ran into this many times during the cold war. They certainly had sharp people capable of developing similar homegrown technology but they didn't seem to know how to utilize them.

I understand your view is skewed through your upbringing, but this happened on both sides.

I'm sure it did to some extent, although I can't think of any major American aircraft or spacecraft that were blatant copies of Soviet designs, while there are multiple examples of the reverse.

As I mentioned, I don't think it's due to a lack of talent, but rather the overall political climate was not conducive to innovation and experimentation.

[Mr. Scram]

I'm sure it did to some extent, although I can't think of any major American aircraft or spacecraft that were blatant copies of Soviet designs, while there are multiple examples of the reverse.

As I mentioned, I don't think it's due to a lack of talent, but rather the overall political climate was not conducive to innovation and experimentation.

I mentioned the Bell X-1 a few posts back. That technology has been pretty much engineered by the British. Of course, there are plenty of examples where technology was "inspired" by or stolen from other nations like the Soviet Union, including those featured in the Space Race. Remember that the US was playing catch up throughout almost all of it. Some say the Apollo 1 disaster happened because the US scientists thought the Soviets used a pure oxygen atmosphere inside their spacecraft. The Soviet did indeed do this, but stopped doing so after an accident strikingly similar to the Apollo 1 fire. The US only learned about that in 1986.

https://www.popsci.com/cias-bold-kidnapping-soviet-spacecraft
https://www.quora.com/How-did-Soviet-and-US-military-technology-compare

[blueskull]

As a result, secondary innovated products should look nothing like the original in terms of actual implementation. If not, that's larceny.

In theory. In practice - western company do not have chances in Chinese court and result usually is closure of business and obvious unemployment of workers.

In practice, Chinese clones Chinese as well. When you have a country with 1.3 billions of very high IQ and very low moral standard population with state slogan once being "regardless white cat or black cat, the cat that catches the mice is the good cat", no one can stop IP theft. There's nothing the government can do at all. Their dictatorship is just a bluff.

I can, if I want, start a small company stealing technology from a state owned privileged company and still get around because there are tens of thousands of "me" around that they don't even know which one to sue first.

In China, law doesn't apply to small players. They are just too small to find and bust. Big companies follow the laws and have an army of lawyers and consultants. Small players won't even bother hiring a lawyer at all.

If you design something that may end up in China, use some clever firmware tricks and use a hard to decrypt mcu. This is the only way to prevent someone from cloning your product.

[ogden]

If you design something that may end up in China, use some clever firmware tricks and use a hard to decrypt mcu. This is the only way to prevent someone from cloning your product.

Right. Also do not let your Chinese partners to visit your factory/office.

[rhb]

I've not followed this thread, but I'd like to offer a comment.

The USA made the electronics industry in China possible.  Nixon's relaxation of trade sanctions and American tax law subsidized  American investment in China.  It is the greatest gift any people have made to another country.  I am pleased we did it.  China suffered at the hands of the European powers and the Japanese for a long time.  The British fought a war to ensure they could sell opium in China.  Imagine if Mexico or Columbia did that.

We have brought China forward to the point that they are a serious commercial and military rival.  We have provided enough aid.  Our task is done.

Now we need to build a Shenzen in the USA.

I hope this won't cross the "no politics" rules for EEVblog.

I am an American. My father's family came here in 1635 from England.  My mother came here in 1944 from Sweden.  The revitalization of  China by American trade is one of the few things we have done that I am proud of.  Mostly we seem to start embarrassingly stupid wars.

[Mr. Scram]

I've not followed this thread, but I'd like to offer a comment.

The USA made the electronics industry in China possible.  Nixon's relaxation of trade sanctions and American tax law subsidized  American investment in China.  It is the greatest gift any people have made to another country.  I am pleased we did it.  China suffered at the hands of the European powers and the Japanese for a long time.  The British fought a war to ensure they could sell opium in China.  Imagine if Mexico or Columbia did that.

We have brought China forward to the point that they are a serious commercial and military rival.  We have provided enough aid.  Our task is done.

Now we need to build a Shenzen in the USA.

I hope this won't cross the "no politics" rules for EEVblog.

I am an American. My father's family came here in 1635 from England.  My mother came here in 1944 from Sweden.  The revitalization of  China by American trade is one of the few things we have done that I am proud of.  Mostly we seem to start embarrassingly stupid wars.

Do you have any numbers to support that notion? I don't really think China depended on US to get where it is right now. It's a significant business partner, but the EU is too and actually surpasses the US. Of course, both China and Japan own large amounts of US debt, but I don't think that's related.

The following page doesn't seem to mention it either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_and_industrial_history_of_China

[blueskull]

Do you have any numbers to support that notion? I don't really think China depended on US to get where it is right now. It's a significant business partner, but the EU is too and actually surpasses the US. Of course, both China and Japan own large amounts of US debt, but I don't think that's related.

Just look at Chinese standards. Older, well established standards, such as mains voltage, mains frequency, PAL video format, etc., are from East Germany through USSR, which eventually became EU standard.
Then, in the early 90s during the wake of Tiananmen square incident and the West stopped to export high tech to China, China partnered with Japan. That's why many standards (discrete transistors, material science, textiles, etc.) developed in that era were similar or identical to Japanese ones.
In the new century, as China joins WTO and buys US debt like crazy, many US technology got imported to China again, including networking, computing and similar digital stuff, and thus many new Chinese standards are similar to US standards.

So while Chinese technologies are not 100% based on US ones, but many later ones after the honeymoon period between China and Japan has ended, are.

As for why China and Japan can't get along well forever, well, it's a nation level hatred.
Chinese people can get along with Japanese people and Korean people, and vise versa. But Chinese government always have this hatred to Japanese government on Japan invasion, so does Korean government. It's a political stunt to gain public support.
Economically, China, Japan and Korea form a very strong alliance, but politically we just can't get along. China can get along with South Korea, but neither can get along with Japan politically.

[all_repair]

If you design something that may end up in China, use some clever firmware tricks and use a hard to decrypt mcu. This is the only way to prevent someone from cloning your product.

Right. Also do not let your Chinese partners to visit your factory/office.

Apply to all your partners, not limited to a particular cpuntry.  Except some is rich enough to buy you out because the trouble of cloning is too slow and too uncertain.

[rhb]

Do you have any numbers to support that notion? I don't really think China depended on US to get where it is right now. It's a significant business partner, but the EU is too and actually surpasses the US. Of course, both China and Japan own large amounts of US debt, but I don't think that's related.

The following page doesn't seem to mention it either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_and_industrial_history_of_China

Wikipedia is *not* an authoritative reference.

Look at where China was after The Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution.  Were it not for Nixon neither the US nor the EU would have traded with China. The USA was not the only contributor to China's prosperity, but we led the way and contributed a lot.

As blueskull notes quite correctly, it's a complicated and messy picture.  As a practical matter, China, Japan and South Korea all need each other
as do the other countries in the area.

China has advanced to the point where it is causing serious pain in working class America.  That needs to be fixed. But China can stand on its own in any company now.  That is a good thing.   Of course, their one carrier group is going to go play footsie with three of ours which will doubtless be a bit intimidating when we run a launch and recovery operation.  But the Chinese admirals aren't under any illusions, at least from what I've read of their statements. It takes well  over 20 years of practice to be able to do this to American standards.

I'm personally pleased that the USA is no longer the only major power.  It led to very foolish behaviors by our politicians.

As for the "trade war" , "The Donald" is just negotiating in the crass manner to which he is accustomed.  It's ugly, boorish and unpleasant, but it seems to work which is more than many of his predecessors can claim.

[Mr. Scram]

Wikipedia is *not* an authoritative reference.

Look at where China was after The Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution.  Were it not for Nixon neither the US nor the EU would have traded with China. The USA was not the only contributor to China's prosperity, but we led the way and contributed a lot.

As blueskull notes quite correctly, it's a complicated and messy picture.  As a practical matter, China, Japan and South Korea all need each other
as do the other countries in the area.

China has advanced to the point where it is causing serious pain in working class America.  That needs to be fixed. But China can stand on its own in any company now.  That is a good thing.   Of course, their one carrier group is going to go play footsie with three of ours which will doubtless be a bit intimidating when we run a launch and recovery operation.  But the Chinese admirals aren't under any illusions, at least from what I've read of their statements. It takes well  over 20 years of practice to be able to do this to American standards.

I'm personally pleased that the USA is no longer the only major power.  It led to very foolish behaviors by our politicians.

As for the "trade war" , "The Donald" is just negotiating in the crass manner to which he is accustomed.  It's ugly, boorish and unpleasant, but it seems to work which is more than many of his predecessors can claim.

Wikipedia is more authoritative than a random internet user. I wouldn't base testimony on it, but it's plenty good for most intents and purposes.

How are Trumps negotiating tactics working? So far people have only rattled their keys to appease the crying politician. Even his own staff is continuously fleeing the ship. That doesn't really seem to convey trust and successful leadership. People love to party with a winner, but there don't seem to be many people partying yet.

China is expertly countering the issue, as it knows Trump's weak spot are his rural supporters. That's why they imposed sanctions that hit this group hardest. Now it's a two-front war for Trump. Moving forward and moving back now both hurt. China won't be so stupid to go to actual war either. It owns too much of the US to shoot it to bits. You don't throw rocks at your own windows. Conversely, China can economically hurt the US much harder than it can military. Why bother starting a painful military conflict?

[hermit]

China holds a lot of US debt in government bonds so they can't be too brutal.  I would imagine they are playing the long game and can hurt the US economy now and wait for him to go.

[all_repair]

There is no such thing as USA helping China, or China helping USA on trade.  They help themselves as it is done on a willing seller and willing buyer basis.  They are buying at the best price and selling on the best price.  The media propoganda is misleading people.  Trade deficit is a not bad thing but you need to spend less than what you make so end up you have a plus or a balance.  If you spend more than you make, it is not the supermart fault or mouser fault, it is your fault.  USA problems that brought Trump is the distribution of wealth, you dont blame the place that the USA factories relocated to, you have to see why and what made these factories relocate.  It is the policy that the politicians created that allowed or encouraged that.  The other biggest problem is instead of investing 5.6 trillion dollars on development, infrastructure,  education or something more productive, USA has wasted 5.6 trillions on wars since 911. 

[VK3DRB]

You are right. It is all about money. Demonstrated by the USA Presidents and their overseas lapdogs who have banned trade with Cuba until they have free elections, and yet trade with the Chinese and Vietnamese communist regimes. Yes, who cares about ethics or justice when there is money to be made.

[saturation]

Thanks I've been looking for that list but not with vigor. 

It looks like PRC T&M companies will be in trouble.

If anyone has been on the fence for gear its now or never, most any general purpose T&M instrument even in the MHz like a Rigol 1054z can be used for 'telecommunications' so its open to interpretation.  Voltage control can be as mudane as a wall wart as defined below.  But it much clearer that this involves at least DMM, signal sources and soldering irons/guns.

NESI or NESOI means 'not elsewhere specified or included' ergo a catch all for the category.


90302005 ........... Oscilloscopes and oscillographs, specially designed for telecommunications
90303334 ........... Resistance measuring instruments
90303338 ........... Other instruments and apparatus, nesi, for measuring or checking electrical voltage,current, resistance or power, without a recording device
90303901 ........... Instruments and apparatus, nesi, for measuring or checking electrical voltage, current,resistance or power, with a recording device
90304000 ........... Instruments and apparatus specially designed for telecommunications
90308200 ........... Instruments and apparatus for measuring or checking electrical quantities, nesoi: for measuring or checking semiconductor wafers or devices
90309025 ........... Printed circuit assemblies for instruments and apparatus for measuring or detecting ionizing radiation
90309046 ........... Parts and accessories for instruments and apparatus for measuring or detecting ionizing radiation, nesi
90309066 ........... Printed circuit assemblies for subheadings and apparatus of 9030.40 & 9030.82
90309068 ........... Printed circuit assemblies, NESOI
90309084 ........... Parts and accessories for instruments and apparatus for measuring or checking semiconductor wafers or devices, nesoi
.....

90328920 ........... Automatic voltage and voltage-current regulators, designed for use in a 6, 12, or 24 V system
90328940 ........... Automatic voltage and voltage-current regulators, not designed for use in a 6, 12, or 24 V system
90328960 ........... Automatic regulating or controlling instruments and apparatus, nesi
90329021 ........... Parts and accessories of automatic voltage and voltage-current regulators designed for use in a 6, 12, or 24 V system, nesi
90329041 ........... Parts and accessories of automatic voltage and voltage-current regulators, not designed for use in a 6, 12, or 24 V system, nesi
90329061 ........... Parts and accessories for automatic regulating or controlling instruments and apparatus, nesi
...
85432000 ........... Electrical signal generators

85151100 ........... Electric soldering irons and guns

85285945 ........... Color video monitors nesoi, with video display diagonal not over 34.29 cm, not
incorporating VCR or player

I was reading an article about the new 25% tariffs that Trumps wants to put on 1300+ products/items from China, and luckily there was a link to the document.
Included in the list, apart of industrial equipments, steel/iron/aluminum there is also a lot of electronic testing gear and also components like:

85322100 ........... Tantalum fixed capacitors
85322200 ........... Aluminum electrolytic fixed capacitors
85322300 ........... Ceramic dielectric fixed capacitors, single layer
85322400 ........... Ceramic dielectric fixed capacitors, multilayer
85322500 ........... Dielectric fixed capacitors of paper or plastics
85322900 ........... Fixed electrical capacitors, nesi
85323000 ........... Variable or adjustable (pre-set) electrical capacitors
85329000 ........... Parts of electrical capacitors, fixed, variable or adjustable (pre-set)
85331000 ........... Electrical fixed carbon resistors, composition or film types
85332100 ........... Electrical fixed resistors, other than composition or film type carbon resistors, for a power handling capacity not exceeding 20 W
85332900 ........... Electrical fixed resistors, other than composition or film type carbon resistors, for a power handling capacity exceeding 20 W
85333100 ........... Electrical wirewound variable resistors, including rheostats and potentiometers, for a power handling capacity not exceeding 20 W
85334040 ........... Metal oxide resistors
...
85412100 ........... Transistors, other than photosensitive transistors, with a dissipation rating of less than 1 W
85412900 ........... Transistors, other than photosensitive transistors, with a dissipation rating of 1 W or more
85413000 ........... Thyristors, diacs and triacs, other than photosensitive devices
85414020 ........... Light-emitting diodes (LED's)
85414070 ........... Photosensitive transistors
85414080 ........... Photosensitive semiconductor devices nesi, optical coupled isolators
85414095 ........... Photosensitive semiconductor devices nesi, other
85415000 ........... Semiconductor devices other than photosensitive semiconductor devices, nesi
85416000 ........... Mounted piezoelectric crystals

https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/files/Press/Releases/301FRN.pdf

[Galenbo]

I just checked. The vast majority of the amount is BTW which I think is VAT, ...

Vat is 21% here, the taxes I pay for importing from Asia are a lot higher.
Call it what you want, they call it import taxes.

[Galenbo]

You're apparently one of those types that...   
I suggest you travel the world a bit and ...
I'm not really feeling like ...

That sounds like made up excuses from a narrow minded subsidized second-tier citizen, with a lot of fantasy.

[Mr. Scram]

Vat is 21% here, the taxes I pay for importing from Asia are a lot higher.
Call it what you want.

Why aren't you giving us practical examples? You keep saying you get excessively taxed, yet some preliminary calculations with the calculator you linked to don't support your statements. The vast majority is VAT which you have to pay anyway. The rest is a very small percentage of the total amount.

You've been asked three times now. Unless you come up with a few practical examples, the conclusion seems to be that your statements are untrue.

[Galenbo]

In theory. In practice - western company do not have chances in Chinese court and result usually is closure of business and obvious unemployment of workers.

Last time we were there, it was closed, but in court they argued a mouse was a cat:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beijing_Shijingshan_Amusement_Park

[Mr. Scram]

That sounds like made up excuses from a narrow minded subsidized second-tier citizen, with a lot of fantasy.

You can't claim exceptional things without evidence and expect people to accept what you say. You're claiming that starting a business in Belgium is "de-facto [...] forbidden", that "globalists replaced the population in our area" and that "the rankings you saw are made up by the unelected establisment". Each one of those is a bold claim that needs strong evidence. It'd help if you could provide evidence to back these statements up, preferably for all three of them. Do note that they're quite extraordinary statements and that the proof needs to be equally convincing. Obviously, failure to do so will inevitable lead to your claims being dismissed as not credible.

A quick fact check about businesses in Belgium shows that 90000 new businesses have been started in 2016, which apparently is a Belgian record. After deducting the number of companies going out of business there is a net increase of 23934 new companies. This doesn't seem to coincide with your statements about starting a business being de-facto forbidden. The other claims are less quantifiable, at least without more data. I'll leave it up to you to provide any evidence for them.

[Galenbo]

Why aren't you giving us practical examples? You keep saying you get excessively taxed, yet some preliminary calculations with the calculator you linked to don't support your statements. The vast majority is VAT which you have to pay anyway. The rest is a very small percentage of the total amount.

You've been asked three times now. Unless you come up with a few practical examples, the conclusion seems to be that your statements are untrue.

If you refuse to put some numbers in that calculator yourself, so be it, no help is possible.
It is exactly what I pay here in real life, if you refuse to "believe" that, so be it.

Your statement that I said I get excessively taxed is a lie, try to get the context.

Each one of those is a bold claim that needs strong evidence.
It'd help if you could provide evidence to...
... to your claims being dismissed as not credible.

I really don't care how you feel about this, because you refuse to even get what is going on.
Your demands for "proof" are a scam. None of those demands are made with the intention of getting more insight.
It's about defending your conclusion of something that doesn't interest you anyway.

[Mr. Scram]

If you refuse to put some numbers in that calculator yourself, so be it, no help is possible.
It is exactly what I pay here in real life, if you refuse to "believe" that, so be it.

Your statement that I said I get excessively taxed is a lie, try to get the context.

I did put various numbers in the calculator, yet came up with very modest fees other than the VAT you are already paying. That's why I am asking you for the fourth time to provide a tangible example. You repeat your claim over and over, yet cannot back it up. That leads to the conclusion that it's simply not true. If you disagree, please provide actual real world and representative numbers.

Your original statements are below. Even though you never used the word "excessive", it's exactly what you infer. Where is that "a lot higher" other than the 21% VAT? We're not even talking about your claims about criminal organisations being involved.

EU and/or their Vassal States steals about 26% to 64% from me when I import something significant.
"The Formula"
The same criminal organisation(s) now make propaganda about some USA-trade-war.

Vat is 21% here, the taxes I pay for importing from Asia are a lot higher.
Call it what you want, they call it import taxes.

[ogden]

Very interesting. Please tell how you came-up with such numbers, preferably by example. Also name product(s) which have 26% to 64% EU import duties.

Hint: http://madb.europa.eu/madb/euTariffs.htm

[edit] Just checked with purchase dept: electronic components import tax from China = 0%   

You have a strange kind of reality. Nothing to do with the one I live in.
http://www.invoercalculator.be/

In mine reality VAT is not import tariff. I am pretty sure that VAT in your country is just VAT as well.

Different products from different countries have different tariffs. For example electrolytic capacitors as most electronic components have 0% EU import tariff (from China), so in calculator box "Invoerrechten" you shall enter 0%. Check following URL to see EU import tariff for capacitors from China for yourself:

http://madb.europa.eu/madb/euTariffs.htm?productCode=853222&country=CN

[Galenbo]

I did put various numbers in the calculator, yet came up with very modest fees other than the VAT you are already paying. That's why I am asking you for the fourth time to provide a tangible example. You repeat your claim over and over, yet cannot back it up.

Please explain the difficulcies you have with entering some numbers in the field, to see the percentages I gave.
It's really not difficult, try again or explain what's blocking you.

That leads to the conclusion that it's simply not true.

That's generally a false way of thinking.

[Galenbo]

Different products from different countries have different tariffs. For example electrolytic capacitors as most electronic components have 0% EU import tariff (from China), so in calculator box "Invoerrechten" you shall enter 0%. Check following URL to see EU import tariff for capacitors from China for yourself:

Yes ok, but when ordering something, I get taxed on the value, not the kind of content.
I have no possibility to enter "capacitors" or "educational practice board" somewhere.

[Mr. Scram]

Please explain the difficulcies you have with entering some numbers in the field, to see the percentages I gave.
It's really not difficult, try again or explain what's blocking you.

That's generally a false way of thinking.

I have no trouble entering example or place-holder values in the calculator. They never result in unreasonable fees. You claim "EU and/or their Vassal States steals about 26% to 64% from me", but the numbers don't show this. I am asking you for the fifth time what exact numbers you input into the calculator to get fees ranging from 26% to 64%. Whatever numbers I use, they don't result in these percentages and therefore your statements seem to be untrue. If you disagree, provide numbers to show your assessments are true. At this point it seems that you avoid answering the question because you know full well your initial statement wasn't t

Expecting to see evidence for claims made is not a false way of thinking. You can't realistically expect to make bold claims about being stolen from without providing a shred of evidence and not have people questioning you.

[Mr. Scram]

Yes ok, but when ordering something, I get taxed on the value, not the kind of content.
I have no possibility to enter "capacitors" or "educational practice board" somewhere.

Does this tax happen to be VAT? Because VAT is calculated over the value of a product. Only specific product types require additional tariffs, but you don't seem to be paying those.

Just paying VAT means you're paying the same as you would pay for local products. The VAT goes to your local government, not the EU. There can be a processing fee, but that's also paid to your local customs office and not the EU.

[ogden]

Different products from different countries have different tariffs. For example electrolytic capacitors as most electronic components have 0% EU import tariff (from China), so in calculator box "Invoerrechten" you shall enter 0%. Check following URL to see EU import tariff for capacitors from China for yourself:

Yes ok, but when ordering something, I get taxed on the value, not the kind of content.
I have no possibility to enter "capacitors" or "educational practice board" somewhere.

Perhaps all you do is low-cost packages using snail mail, not couriers. Such in most EU countries are processed "on fast track" to not overload customs.

Rest assured - when you for example buy significant amount of industrial steel plates from China, your customs officer will ensure that product is correctly identified and let you pay 35.9% import (anti-dumping) import tariff

Anyway what you said that supposedly consumer products and electronic components have 26% to 64% EU import duties is simply not true.

[Galenbo]

Anyway what you said that supposedly consumer products and electronic components have 26% to 64% EU import duties is simply not true.

sorry, depends on your definition of "EU import duties", and the breakdown into their different taxation/costs/administration/... categories,
but the amount of money that EU charges me really is that percentage.

[ogden]

Anyway what you said that supposedly consumer products and electronic components have 26% to 64% EU import duties is simply not true.

sorry, depends on your definition of "EU import duties", and the breakdown into their different taxation/costs/administration/... categories,
but the amount of money that EU charges me really is that percentage.

There's nothing wrong with mine definition of import duties. Yours have serious problem. I would also like to see how you get your numbers - by detailed calculation example here.

[Galenbo]

There's nothing wrong with mine definition of import duties.

Depends on how you use that definition.
Remember my initial statement was "EU and/or their Vassal States steals about 26% to 64% from me when I import something significant. "

Pro-EU guys defending it with EU redefinitions : "There are 0% import duties" are simply manipulating and inducing lies.

I would also like to see how you get your numbers - by detailed calculation example here.

What's your result when you enter "China" in the first field, and ¥ 300 in the second ?

[Mr. Scram]

sorry, depends on your definition of "EU import duties", and the breakdown into their different taxation/costs/administration/... categories,
but the amount of money that EU charges me really is that percentage.

You haven't provided any evidence of this. You pay VAT to the Belgian customs and not the EU and little else.

[Galenbo]

You haven't provided any evidence of this. You pay VAT to the Belgian customs and not the EU and little else.

Your differentiation between vat/non-vat is another effort to bend the initial statement in something else.
Your differentiation between Belgium/EU is irrelevant. EU makes the rules and belgium is a vassal state.

[RoGeorge]

This is not funny any more 

[Galenbo]

This is not funny any more 

You are right, no idea why those guys keep on denying essential fragments of the obvious.

[Mr. Scram]

Depends on how you use that definition.

What's your result when you enter "China" in the first field, and ¥ 300 in the second ?

¥300 is a little over 2 euro. If I'm to believe Google Translate, anything up to 22 euro is exempt from any tax. See the quoted text below.

Of course, if you import something cheap that's just over the treshold, the fixed processing fee will be a relatively large part of the total amount. That still doesn't mean the EU steals this money from you, as it's the Belgian customs office who processes your package and the money.

"Up to € 22, - no import duties and VAT are charged, from € 22, - to € 150, - free of import duties but with VAT. From € 150, - you always have to pay import duties and VAT. In most cases mail delivery services do not charge clearance costs if the order amount of the goods to be imported remains below € 22. Read more about the clearance costs of bpost on this page."

[Galenbo]

¥300 is a little over 2 euro.

Don't drink and EEV.
That guy is pathetic.

[Mr. Scram]

Your differentiation between vat/non-vat is another effort to bend the initial statement in something else.
Your differentiation between Belgium/EU is irrelevant. EU makes the rules and belgium is a vassal state.

You stated that a large percentage of the total amount gets stolen from you by the EU when you import goods into the EU. This is false, as you consistently ignore that you would also pay VAT when you buy things in the local shop.

The differentiation between Belgium and the EU is hugely important. You claimed the EU steals money from you. It doesn't. You pay VAT to the state you live in, like almost any citizen in the world is doing to his state.

It sounds like you simply disagree with the concept of taxation. If that's the case I suggest you move to Somalia to live out the rest of your tax free life. In almost all other parts of the world tax is the price you pay for civilized society.

[ogden]

This is not funny any more 

Right. Discussion shifted way too far into off-topic and just blatant anti-EU propaganda trolling. Waste of internet digital ink

[Galenbo]

You stated that a large percentage of the total amount gets stolen from you by the EU when you import goods into the EU. This is false, as you consistently ignore that you would also pay VAT when you buy things in the local shop.

Mr Pathetic tries to defend the stealing of 30%/40%/50%/60% because otherwise there is also 21% be stolen.
Clearly defending his de-facto state income.

Bye Mr Pathetic, you lost my attention.

[Mr. Scram]

don't drink and EEV

Can we please treat each other with some basic respect? Google simply interpreted it as Japanese yen, rather than Chinese yuan.

If I enter 300 Chinese yuan in the calculator I get roughly 41 euros for the product itself, 12 euros as a fixed fee and 8,70 VAT. The VAT is something you would have paid for local products too and therefore has to be added to the price of the product. This leads to a product price of roughly 50 euros and a fixed free of 12 euros, which means you've paid about 24% over the product price. That's not 26% to 64% and it's paid to the Belgian customs office, not the EU.

As we've already mentioned, the fixed fee is percentually most expensive in the case of small purchases. If you order something more substantial of 3000 yuan the percentage and tariffs drop to a little over 10%. If you something actually substantial of 30000 yuan, the fee and tariffs drops to 4%.

[Galenbo]

Can we please treat each other with some basic respect?

Mr Pathetic goes suddenly in full victim mode.
The boose made it impossible to remember his own kind of "respect" in the first answers, starting with: "You're apparently one of those types that..."

Still unable to see further than the would-be "differences" between vat/non-vat, country/EU, whatever.

You surely want some last word, I'll keep some place for you here under.
A hint, something basic about "but roads"

Cheers !

[Mr. Scram]

Mr Pathetic tries to defend the stealing of 30%/40%/50%/60% because otherwise there is also 21% be stolen.
Clearly defending his de-facto state income.

Bye Mr Pathetic, you lost my attention.

Again, basic taxation isn't a Belgian or EU invention. It should be noted that even income tax free nations like the Bahamas tend to levy VAT. Besides, let's be realistic here. You make use of basic services in your country. You use the roads, the police ensures you're safe, you are probably educated and the list goes on. I don't think you really expect these people to work for free, right?

Insulting people when you lose an argument is not a flattering trait.

[TheDane]

The trick down effect:

The top brass outsources all and everything, and becomes 'rich'.
The middle class loses jobs and income.
The bottom is gone. 

Time goes by bye, and the top brass figures out greed erroded and corroded all avaliable 'wealth' - no more to 'trick - and no tax income
- so now the acusses start "stolen IP's, no jobs, deficits on trade, etc"

[nctnico]

Can we please treat each other with some basic respect?

Mr Pathetic goes suddenly in full victim mode.
The boose made it impossible to remember his own kind of "respect" in the first answers, starting with: "You're apparently one of those types that..."

Perhaps you could do yourself a favour and come up with an example product which get taxed with 64% or leave the discussion alone.
I order lots of stuff overseas as well and as Mr Scram already wrote there are 3 charges: VAT, import duties (in my experience 1.5% at most) and handling charges.

[EEVblog]

Galenbo, if you can't keep it civil then you are not welcome here, personal attacks will get you banned.

[Yellofriend]

I can fully understand that China creates quite a bit of frustration. They push other countries to lower tariffs for their goods, but create very high import barriers for imports into China. Example, currently it's pretty much impossible send anything electronic to China. My solder iron broke, I couldn't send it from HK to China.

A Chinese friend forgot his (well used) phone and had it sent back to China, it got stuck in Chinese customs for 4 month till they finally refused and he managed to send it to my address.

China isn't a by-the-rules-player, and probably never will be.

https://www.innovationfiles.org/top-9-false-promises-that-china-made-in-joining-the-world-trade-organization/

[Galenbo]

Galenbo, if you can't keep it civil then you are not welcome here, personal attacks will get you banned.

Let me guess: This is seen as civil, and not as a personal attack AT ALL.

You're apparently one of those types that believes any information that confirms his views is true and anything that opposes it is propaganda or a lie.  I suggest you travel the world a bit and see how well you're off when you live in the EU compared to almost all other parts of the world. It's certainly not perfect, but it could definitely be a lot worse.

I'm not really feeling like dealing with paranoid nightmares right now. Maybe other forum members are up for it.

[blueskull]

My solder iron broke, I couldn't send it from HK to China.

A Chinese friend forgot his (well used) phone and had it sent back to China, it got stuck in Chinese customs for 4 month till they finally refused and he managed to send it to my address.

You didn't do it the Chinese way. The Chinese way is to declare a fake CN22 as new commercial sample, and Chinese customs will not ask questions.

[BravoV]

My solder iron broke, I couldn't send it from HK to China.

A Chinese friend forgot his (well used) phone and had it sent back to China, it got stuck in Chinese customs for 4 month till they finally refused and he managed to send it to my address.

You didn't do it the Chinese way. The Chinese way is to declare a fake CN22 as new commercial sample, and Chinese customs will not ask questions.

Thank you, noted, this might be useful someday. 

[Yellofriend]

My solder iron broke, I couldn't send it from HK to China.

A Chinese friend forgot his (well used) phone and had it sent back to China, it got stuck in Chinese customs for 4 month till they finally refused and he managed to send it to my address.

You didn't do it the Chinese way. The Chinese way is to declare a fake CN22 as new commercial sample, and Chinese customs will not ask questions.

Yeah, I know, honesty is my weak point.

But seriously, I use SF Express, and everything that goes into China will be physically checked by them - and refused if it's electronics, or other banned items. I hand carried it to China and send it from Shenzhen to the factory for repair then.

[blueskull]

But seriously, I use SF Express, and everything that goes into China will be physically checked by them - and refused if it's electronics, or other banned items. I hand carried it to China and send it from Shenzhen to the factory for repair then.

SF ships electronics to and from and within China. SF doesn't ship used ones as such are considered hazardous goods or eWaste. You can just put on a new protective film and tell the SF guys that it is a new one.

There is a bit of political background. Currently, Chinese government is banning the importing of all sorts of eWaste since late 2017.

[BravoV]

Currently, Chinese government is banning the importing of all sorts of eWaste since late 2017.

I guess those Chinese GPSDOs will eventually dry up ?

[all_repair]

My solder iron broke, I couldn't send it from HK to China.

A Chinese friend forgot his (well used) phone and had it sent back to China, it got stuck in Chinese customs for 4 month till they finally refused and he managed to send it to my address.

You didn't do it the Chinese way. The Chinese way is to declare a fake CN22 as new commercial sample, and Chinese customs will not ask questions.

Yeah, I know, honesty is my weak point.

But seriously, I use SF Express, and everything that goes into China will be physically checked by them - and refused if it's electronics, or other banned items. I hand carried it to China and send it from Shenzhen to the factory for repair then.

What kind of iron that caused you pain from China?  Because I can't imagine the problem you are having.  The western or Japanese branded are more costly to buy inside China, and the other value-for-money China irons are hardly worth the trouble to send back.  Load up the spare parts, and they would cause less than the troubles and the shipping back.

[blueskull]

I guess those Chinese GPSDOs will eventually dry up ?

Maybe. Some of them come from domestic retired 3G/2G telecom devices, so they should keep for a while.
Also, the most failed part of Chinese politicians is that whenever they try to ban anything, it only annoys law abiding citizens and those who are determined to violate the laws still can find a way out.
There still ways to get used electronics to China, just at higher cost. They won't be able to get boatloads of eWaste, but they can still disassemble the valuable parts in original country and only smuggle them to China.
As long as Shenzhen remains the world's electronic supermarket, there will be a way to get things in.

[CJay]

Currently, Chinese government is banning the importing of all sorts of eWaste since late 2017.

I guess those Chinese GPSDOs will eventually dry up ?

From China, probably, they'll just move elsewhere though as long as they're still being put out as surplus/e-waste and still saleable but I seem to remember reading that they'll dry up anyway (this could be very badly mis-remembered so don't shoot) because some of the newer xG technologies have either far less stringent timing requirements or they are able to get their timing from 'the network'.

[blueskull]

because some of the newer xG technologies have either far less stringent timing requirements or they are able to get their timing from 'the network'.

Yep. I remembered the gold time (~2010) when FE5680 were just 250 CNY on Taobao. Not anymore.
I was hoping to get an SA33m or SA45c just for collection, but I think I'm not getting them cheaply, used, any time soon.

[Yellofriend]

But seriously, I use SF Express, and everything that goes into China will be physically checked by them - and refused if it's electronics, or other banned items. I hand carried it to China and send it from Shenzhen to the factory for repair then.

SF ships electronics to and from and within China.....

Nope, no electronics of any type from HK to CN via SF. Often I got something for China. Asked them often, the refused often. Need to do the smuggle route, there are some special forwarders for that.

What kind of iron that caused you pain from China?

It was was one of those vacuum de-solder irons that gave up after 1 week of use. I got it back repaired, but it still sucks, not in the way it should though. I think it was around rmb 500 or so. Hakko will be 1000+ in China.

[blueskull]

Nope, no electronics of any type from HK to CN via SF.

The wall is getting taller.

[wraper]

Galenbo, if you can't keep it civil then you are not welcome here, personal attacks will get you banned.

Let me guess: This is seen as civil, and not as a personal attack AT ALL.

You're apparently one of those types that believes any information that confirms his views is true and anything that opposes it is propaganda or a lie.  I suggest you travel the world a bit and see how well you're off when you live in the EU compared to almost all other parts of the world. It's certainly not perfect, but it could definitely be a lot worse.

I'm not really feeling like dealing with paranoid nightmares right now. Maybe other forum members are up for it.

It was said in civilized manner and without calling names. If you cannot see the difference, my condolences to you.