Author Topic: Trump's trade war with China  (Read 11110 times)

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Online Echo88

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Re: Trump's trade war with China
« Reply #50 on: April 06, 2018, 10:44:29 am »
Yeah, the times before WW1 were good. You could hate the other guys across the border because you didnt understand them. Its really not your timeline.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Trump's trade war with China
« Reply #51 on: April 06, 2018, 10:49:30 am »
and a language which makes learning English difficult.

According to US government's language similarity chart, Chinese, Japanese and Korean are all listed level 5, which is the least similar level. Yet basically every young person in CKJ area can speak English, at least at basic level.
It will be hard to find a language that is so exclusive that its native speakers can't learn English.

National identity is just a little bit different than xenophobic, and once crossed the kinda blurry line, they are not different at all.
The extreme version of strong national identity happens between China mainland and Taiwan, and it has grown to a point that it's way beyond xenophobic.
Even only 1% is the aggressive part, 1% times 1.3 billion vs 1% times 50 million is a huge online fight, that's what is bitching over Chinese forums and BBSes every single day.

When "nation" and "ethnic" come hand in hand, holy war always follow.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Trump's trade war with China
« Reply #52 on: April 06, 2018, 11:10:40 am »
Yeah, the times before WW1 were good. You could hate the other guys across the border because you didnt understand them. Its really not your timeline.

Balance in all things. All these European nations with unfavorable living conditions (overpopulation in my country's case, which especially hurts because of the importance of our farmers, climate for Finland) and mass immigration are in deep shit due to brain drain. All these forces are putting us in a feedback loop of increasing taxes and reduced social cohesion which in the most favorable outcome just bring us to ME level mediocrity. At the moment we're essentially providing excellent education for future Americans, Australians, Canadians etc, which might also have mass immigration ... but generally with a better class of immigrants with less barriers to assimilation (similar educational attainment, no fundamentally incompatible religions etc).

National identity is just a little bit different than xenophobic

Xenophobia is a shortcut, painting yourself into a corner against an enemy is an effective but dangerous way to unite people.

Family ties, connection to history through nationalistic tinted education (instill pride, not guilt), connection to the land from upbringing in a family which has long lived there and long lasting local and national ritualistic traditions. All these can build it as well, obviously mass immigration makes it hard to sustain though ... especially without intermarriage.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2018, 11:43:20 am by Marco »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Trump's trade war with China
« Reply #53 on: April 06, 2018, 09:14:19 pm »
Is there any country today that is not overpopulated? Certainly the coastal areas of the US are massively overpopulated, maybe it wouldn't be so bad if people were distributed evenly but nobody wants to live in the middle. Same with Canada, most of the population is crammed into the coasts. Then places like China and India where as far as I know pretty much the entire country is jam packed. IMHO humans have been a little too successful for their own good.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Trump's trade war with China
« Reply #54 on: April 06, 2018, 09:54:31 pm »
It's not the same, you guys can urban sprawl without making a dent in your total land surface ... we not so much. It's even worse in Flanders. It's not Singapore or Hong Kong of course, but it's a problem nonetheless.
 

Offline MT

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Re: Trump's trade war with China
« Reply #55 on: April 06, 2018, 10:32:39 pm »
Is there any country today that is not overpopulated? Certainly the coastal areas of the US are massively overpopulated, maybe it wouldn't be so bad if people were distributed evenly but nobody wants to live in the middle. Same with Canada, most of the population is crammed into the coasts. Then places like China and India where as far as I know pretty much the entire country is jam packed. IMHO humans have been a little too successful for their own good.

There are words in the grape whine among billionaire elites to actually kill off a couple of hundred
millions of other homosapiens to ease up things on the planet and as such make sure they stay in power.

Wonder if china will maintain civil order in near future or if they will start various local vars to distract
from internal turmoil. Its well known that Chinese billionaires are emigrating to Canada and other places
with that comes gentrification while western and Chinese companies are secretly importing cheap arse
labor from Vietnam.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2018, 11:08:47 pm by MT »
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Trump's trade war with China
« Reply #56 on: April 06, 2018, 11:16:10 pm »
Education is great, but the more people have college degrees, the less each of those degrees is worth and the more it costs to go to college due to high demand.

...I do agree with you that not everyone needs a BS degree, but some sort of higher education, such as technical degrees, are needed at least.

In Australia is most of the immigrants have degrees or are getting degrees for which there are not enough jobs. As well, the government has closed a lot of the trades colleges. Hence we have too few tradesmen like plumbers who now have a license to print money. Where I live, foreigners are buying up old properties and building their McMansions at the rate of one or two in most streets at any one time. Australian electricians, plumbers, carpenters etc are laughing all the way to the bank because they have more work than they can handle, and they name their price. Compared to an electronics engineers, a plumber in my city can earn double the money. One plumber I know charges $300 to knock on your door. Fortunately, I can do almost everything myself so I don't need tradesmen. But those immigrants who were brought up with servants in their old country usually have little or no hands-on practical skills, so they must pay others to do everything like even change a tap washer and get charged accordingly.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Trump's trade war with China
« Reply #57 on: April 07, 2018, 07:10:08 am »
Wonder if china will maintain civil order in near future or if they will start various local vars to distract
from internal turmoil.

My bet is there should be a war against Taiwan between 2025~2030, when China has enough technology capability to manufacture all high techs nowadays being imported from the West. China will be put on the strictest export control list by the West following Sudan, Iran, Iraq and NK as soon as Beijing government declares war with Taipei government.

I analyzed the reason and situation in the other Trump vs China thread. The behavior of Xi matches what a state leader would to preparing a war -- gain complete dictatorship on speech, capital and military, as well as spending tons of money on daily use high tech research trying to gain 100% technology independence.

My guess is Beijing will have a fight with Taipei and any potential NATO forces but not touching any NATO soil and win the war. The 50 million Taiwanese people will bring a significant political instability factor to China, hence Beijing will have to declare a peace transition from communism to multi-party, and Xi will not only be the Chinese president that unites the country, but also the Chinese Boris Yeltsin.

Chinese communist party knows its time is about to come, so with or without a war, this transition is happening. Rather than being revolutionized out of power and lose possibility of gain control of Taiwan forever, it's better for CPC to gain Taiwan even if the cost is to allow Taiwanese government to peacefully take over, at least then the CPC leaders will not have to face disgrace and jail time.

The formal communist leaders will still be the ones who actually control the country for at least a few years because their corruption has gained them enough financial advantage to still have their privilege even if competing with others in a fair manner. This has been seen in Russia Federation, and I can see the same happen to China.

As time goes by, the advantage of formal communist leaders will diminish as part of the wealth redistribution, and the West will restart to invest in China, further bringing money to compete with existing oligopolies, until the market becomes truly free and open.

This could be a win-win situation, the Beijing side creates demand and less dependency on exporting, and the Taipei side gets to ragain democracy of entire China. Xi will be remembered as the one who not only united but also freed China, and he can't care much about his privilege and money in China because his off springs (a daughter, and a speculated undocumented son) are already secretly immigrated to US as of now.

Of course, there is not true win-win. Some lower rank CPC officers will lose their power at all (which could make them defect or even assassinate Xi), NK will lose its sponsor, and Russia will not be happy losing a weapon buyer and a fail safe energy (gas, oil) buyer when the West acts up. So how will this play out is an interesting thing to follow in the coming few years.
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Trump's trade war with China
« Reply #58 on: April 07, 2018, 09:00:04 am »
Blueskull, you forgot one thing, "Wealth is Glorious!" proclaimed the box head Deng Xiaoping. Today (as always) the Communist Party leaders love money, face and privilege for their families too much, so there won't be any war with Taiwan as such a war will jeopardise the status quo. They need stability so that everyone "knows their place" under the lie of communism.

There is electronics company in China called Quectel. They think the war with Taiwan has already been won, as according to them Taipei is now part of Greater China. It is not a formatting mistake on their website because it is also in their printed matter. It is rather provocative... https://www.quectel.com/company/contact.htm.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Trump's trade war with China
« Reply #59 on: April 07, 2018, 09:46:14 am »
Blueskull, you forgot one thing, "Wealth is Glorious!" proclaimed the box head Deng Xiaoping. Today (as always) the Communist Party leaders love money, face and privilege for their families too much, so there won't be any war with Taiwan as such a war will jeopardise the status quo. They need stability so that everyone "knows their place" under the lie of communism.

That's what they want, and without Trump, that's what it is. Trump's diplomatic moves with NK and Russia have made China quite uncomfortable. What's important is that as long as NK peacefully reunites with SK and Russia stops selling weapons to China, if Trump's cards play out, China will be completely surrounded by western freedom.

China is stable because the surrounding countries which adopted western freedom are economically worse than China, so Chinese people don't envy them. Mongolia is poor, Vietnam is poor, India is poor, NK is also poor. Russia is rich, but it was traditionally a super power, so there's nothing to envy. Once western freedom and its superiority find a way to come into direct contact with Chinese people, Chinese government will soon have to face some very angry citizens.

I don't know how long will it take for the surrounding traditionally poor country to surpass China in terms of living quality, but that day is the day Chinese government goes down. For this reason, Chinese government must sabotage a nearby pawn of the West.

From the information I know based on my browsing of Chinese internet and forums, it seems like China is very close to this tipping point where another Tiananmen square incident can happen at any moment. Trump's little nudge can well light the fuse, and based form the current trade data, China has nothing to fight with US in this trade war besides some dirty tricks such as hitting defenseless farmers.

Therefore, my conclusion is if Chinese government wants to keep its power, it must fight a controllable, local physical war soon, maybe in the next one or two years, maybe with Philippines or India, for a small island or something small, but controversial soil.

Once the war breaks out, China will undergo severe import and export sanction anyway, plus the effect of creating demand from war can only last that long. Without further have a war with Taiwan or even completely with NATO, I can't see a way Chinese government can keep in power under such condition.

This is one reason why Trump is stupid and Obama is not. Obama knows not to push too far, leave the problems for the future presidents and have his 8 years peacefully and win a personal Nobel Prize. Trump doesn't. He is definitely a patriot, but he doesn't know that anything cornered can bite. The latest news that Trump proposes to tax another $100B (in addition to the previous $60B) export totally proved this.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Trump's trade war with China
« Reply #60 on: April 07, 2018, 09:55:30 am »
There is electronics company in China called Quectel. They think the war with Taiwan has already been won, as according to them Taipei is now part of Greater China. It is not a formatting mistake on their website because it is also in their printed matter. It is rather provocative... https://www.quectel.com/company/contact.htm.

All Chinese websites are required to list Taiwan as a Chinese province or they will be 404ed soon.
All major western companies face the same requirement too, at least for their simplified Chinese pages.
Also, major maps (Apple, MS, etc.) are required to list Taiwan and Diaoyudao (aka. Senkakusu-shima, China-Japan controversial island) as part of China, at least for their Chinese version. Google refuses to do so, and was banned.

Marriott recently made a poll or something which I don't care. The thing that matters is that Marriott listed Tibet and Taiwan both as countries, and they confirmed that they intentionally did this on Twitter, and co-twitted some Tibet separatist organisations. As a result, they've paid the price. There is a huge wave of boycotting Marriott in China and they've lost quite some business. Chinese people may not like their government, but Chinese people are very patriot in terms of anti-separatism.
 

Online BravoV

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Re: Trump's trade war with China
« Reply #61 on: April 07, 2018, 10:13:07 am »
China is stable because the surrounding countries which adopted western freedom are economically worse than China, so Chinese people don't envy them. Mongolia is poor, Vietnam is poor, India is poor, NK is also poor. Russia is rich, but it was traditionally a super power, so there's nothing to envy. Once western freedom and its superiority find a way to come into direct contact with Chinese people, Chinese government will soon have to face some very angry citizens.

Just open a map, the ideal is to surround the whole China with Western influenced countries completely, and leaving naval and sea routes access only at East & South China Sea.

At the north side except NK, for example Japan & South Korea, these are basically Uncle Sam's puppies, whenever they were asked to bark, they will bark, so does the bitting.  >:D

While on middle, Laos, Vietnam and Thailand basically already in the middle of converting too, the 1st sign to proof that is where Western factories are opening like wildfire there.

Now, look what happened to the constant and intense bullying & beating at NK & Myanmar at recent, say since the past decade.

Especially Myanmar, Uncle Sam is so worry if someday China managed to open up a military naval base in Myanmar, which basically The Great China containment mission failed miserably, as basically China naval & shipment route will "leak out" at south to Adamant Bay and Bay of Bengal, as this access is so strategic for resources shipments and also in war time.

Heard this story from a military General here locally when he talked in a symposium.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2018, 10:30:43 am by BravoV »
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Trump's trade war with China
« Reply #62 on: April 07, 2018, 10:19:41 am »
Just open a map, the ideal is to surround the whole China with Western influenced countries completely, and leaving naval and sea routes access only at East & South China Sea.
At the north side except NK, for example Japan & South Korea, these are basically Uncle Sam's puppies, whenever they were asked to bark, they will bark, so does the bitting.  >:D
While on middle, Laos, Vietnam and Thailand basically already in the middle of converting too, the 1st sign to proof that is where Western factories are opening like wildfire there.

Obama knows to leave a slit so Chinese government doesn't have to fight and everyone can keep the stalemate going and their life. Trump doesn't.
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: Trump's trade war with China
« Reply #63 on: April 07, 2018, 10:35:59 am »
China is stable because the surrounding countries which adopted western freedom are economically worse than China, so Chinese people don't envy them. Mongolia is poor, Vietnam is poor, India is poor, NK is also poor. Russia is rich, but it was traditionally a super power, so there's nothing to envy. Once western freedom and its superiority find a way to come into direct contact with Chinese people, Chinese government will soon have to face some very angry citizens.

Russia is not very rich. It is slowly becoming a basket case, partly due to sanctions, partly due to low oil prices, partly due to systemic corruption, and partly due to the thug Putin. The only thing they are good for is Svetlana valves (vacuum tubes) for us electronics enthusiasts in the West. And making nerve gas and Buk missiles.

By the way, Vietnam and Laos are communist countries. So China does have a few comrades around them, as well at the DPRK. The only remaining commo country outside Asian is Cuba.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_state#List_of_current_states_described_as_communist
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Trump's trade war with China
« Reply #64 on: April 07, 2018, 11:05:56 am »
By the way, Vietnam and Laos are communist countries. So China does have a few comrades around them, as well at the DPRK. The only remaining commo country outside Asian is Cuba.

Vietnam is changing, along with fact that NK is showing its willing to talk to the SK, that along made China quite nervous.
 

Online BravoV

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Re: Trump's trade war with China
« Reply #65 on: April 07, 2018, 11:14:19 am »
Trump doesn't.

Meh ... that dude is just a funny puppet, as long they feed him with an idea running the federal gov. like a family business, where all his families members, relatives, siblings had a chance to take a bite on the pie, he will be content.

Just look at his recent stunt on Jeff Bezos Amazon, easy money within days on even hours, by short selling on AMZN stock, prolly you could earn fresh & clean billions dollars in just few days if you're in the inner circle, and the best part its legal.  >:D

Offline Galenbo

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Re: Trump's trade war with China
« Reply #66 on: April 07, 2018, 04:12:50 pm »
How terrible it must be to live in a top 20 nation in regards to living standard, wealth, safety and freedom.
It is indeed terrible. Globalists replaced the population in our area, and pushed the original population out, so they can't afford a home anymore. Starting up u a business is de-facto more and more being forbidden too, except "services" to serve the new lords.

The rankings you saw are made up by the unelected establisment.
If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat.
 

Offline Galenbo

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Re: Trump's trade war with China
« Reply #67 on: April 07, 2018, 04:14:38 pm »
Very interesting. Please tell how you came-up with such numbers, preferably by example. Also name product(s) which have 26% to 64% EU import duties.

Hint: http://madb.europa.eu/madb/euTariffs.htm

[edit] Just checked with purchase dept: electronic components import tax from China = 0%   :-DD

You have a strange kind of reality. Nothing to do with the one I live in.
http://www.invoercalculator.be/
« Last Edit: April 07, 2018, 04:21:48 pm by Galenbo »
If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Trump's trade war with China
« Reply #68 on: April 07, 2018, 06:00:25 pm »
My guess is Beijing will have a fight with Taipei and any potential NATO forces but not touching any NATO soil and win the war.

Unless China has good supersonic cruise missile defences an actual war seems a terrible idea. It won't take an awful lot of them to cripple China's economy. They can flatten Taiwan in return, but that's a Pyrrhic victory.
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Trump's trade war with China
« Reply #69 on: April 07, 2018, 06:23:05 pm »
You guys are funny. America is not brave enough to military confront China or any country that has nukes in their arsenal. Heck, they could not even do anything to tiny SK. Lies, propaganda, alienation and sanctions is all America can and will do, they are goid in that.
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Trump's trade war with China
« Reply #70 on: April 07, 2018, 08:21:46 pm »
There is electronics company in China called Quectel. They think the war with Taiwan has already been won, as according to them Taipei is now part of Greater China. It is not a formatting mistake on their website because it is also in their printed matter. It is rather provocative... https://www.quectel.com/company/contact.htm.

All Chinese websites are required to list Taiwan as a Chinese province or they will be 404ed soon.
All major western companies face the same requirement too, at least for their simplified Chinese pages.
Also, major maps (Apple, MS, etc.) are required to list Taiwan and Diaoyudao (aka. Senkakusu-shima, China-Japan controversial island) as part of China, at least for their Chinese version. Google refuses to do so, and was banned.

Marriott recently made a poll or something which I don't care. The thing that matters is that Marriott listed Tibet and Taiwan both as countries, and they confirmed that they intentionally did this on Twitter, and co-twitted some Tibet separatist organisations. As a result, they've paid the price. There is a huge wave of boycotting Marriott in China and they've lost quite some business. Chinese people may not like their government, but Chinese people are very patriot in terms of anti-separatism.
Google has an easy solution. It shows whatever territory China wishes as belonging to China to people in China, but not to the rest of the world. You get the same map, but with different borders depending on where you are.
 

Offline MT

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Re: Trump's trade war with China
« Reply #71 on: April 07, 2018, 08:23:09 pm »
My bet is there should be a war against Taiwan between 2025~2030, when China has enough technology capability to manufacture all high techs nowadays being imported from the West. China will be put on the strictest export control list by the West following Sudan, Iran, Iraq and NK as soon as Beijing government declares war with Taipei government.
The goal is to incorporate Taiwan, if Xi flattens Taiwan he lost, so how would he do it?

Quote
I analyzed the reason and situation in the other Trump vs China thread. The behavior of Xi matches what a state leader would to preparing a war -- gain complete dictatorship on speech, capital and military, as well as spending tons of money on daily use high tech research trying to gain 100% technology independence.

Just recently he told PLA that they "shall not fear death" and continue to "train in strategic zones", well, thats the usual words of a dictator/psychopath on his way to war.

Quote
My guess is Beijing will have a fight with Taipei and any potential NATO forces but not touching any NATO soil and win the war. The 50 million Taiwanese people will bring a significant political instability factor to China, hence Beijing will have to declare a peace transition from communism to multi-party, and Xi will not only be the Chinese president that unites the country, but also the Chinese Boris Yeltsin.

Boris Jeltsin did the opposite, he dissolved the sovjets not merging them. Some sees Xi as an "PAN Asian" nationalist sort of guy, plays on all kind of invented and real sentiments for his nationalism, hatred towards Japanese for Manchuria , the Brit's , French Asian imperialism etc , a classic way to conduct imperialism , play the role of the
insulted for prior generations pain, but is he as good as Goebbels!

Besides China is not an uniform country by any means unless an idea in the head of a Han Chinese with imperial disease.

Quote
Chinese communist party knows its time is about to come, so with or without a war, this transition is happening. Rather than being revolutionized out of power and lose possibility of gain control of Taiwan forever, it's better for CPC to gain Taiwan even if the cost is to allow Taiwanese government to peacefully take over, at least then the CPC leaders will not have to face disgrace and jail time.

All totalitarian ideologies have internal enemies or they create them. Who is going to put CPC leaders in jail?
Thats not going to happen. Just as noone is US will ever put goons Bush , Cheney, Rumsfeldt etc in jail after all they just did what deep-state told them to do, well they where part of it to. Same crap same mentality.

Quote
The formal communist leaders will still be the ones who actually control the country for at least a few years because their corruption has gained them enough financial advantage to still have their privilege even if competing with others in a fair manner. This has been seen in Russia Federation, and I can see the same happen to China.

Thats not what hapend in Russia, after US wrecked their economy during "Boris the drunk" time there was a
not to well known "cou de' etat" by the Chekists (a Russian tradition) then Putin put pressure on the new
oligarcic elite that came during Boris time but as you indicate it could turn out similar to Romania , the elites
kills of the "front face" then take over country under a new "polished" flag.

Quote
As time goes by, the advantage of formal communist leaders will diminish as part of the wealth
redistribution and the West will restart to invest in China, further bringing money to compete with existing
oligopolies , until the market becomes truly free and open.

Your constantly referring to communists , China has newer been communists per text book definition.
There have never been a 100% socialist country either, all so far have been the typical Chekist thing
an self proclaimed elite with an idea of how to get to the power and maintain it and pass on to next
generation within the family. Elits replacing elits a bunch of psychopaths rely.

What is a truly free and open market? I argue there is none and will newer be, ancient Greeks warned the future there
will be none, so far they have been right on the dot. A complete rebake of banking system is needed, will Oligarchs
accept that? Not in a million years. And west will not invest into a China that has high wages and tax. Vietnam next!

Quote
This could be a win-win situation, the Beijing side creates demand and less dependency on exporting, and the Taipei side gets to ragain democracy of entire China. Xi will be remembered as the one who not only united but also freed China, and he can't care much about his privilege and money in China because his off springs (a daughter, and
a speculated undocumented son) are already secretly immigrated to US as of now.

I doubt that scenery to play out. For example China is the biggest pork eater on the planet and the piss and shite the pigs leave is polluting China! China and fish? Well there is a reason for China's military take over of the Chinese see
to shrink wrap Taipei elites in to submission by starvation. A Marshall plan for Taiwan by US? Dont think US can afford it.

Speculated undocumented son, that suggest Xi have been dicking around, or done a "in like Flynn"! ^-^

Quote
Of course, there is not true win-win. Some lower rank CPC officers will lose their power at all (which could make them defect or even assassinate Xi), NK will lose its sponsor, and Russia will not be happy losing a weapon buyer and a fail safe energy (gas, oil) buyer when the West acts up. So how will this play out is an interesting thing to follow in the coming few years.

There we go, yes of-course there is no win win. I bet 10 american fiat money there will be an attempt to a knifeing into Ceasars back, it's traditional homo-sapiens behavior.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2018, 10:11:54 pm by MT »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Trump's trade war with China
« Reply #72 on: April 07, 2018, 08:43:40 pm »
You have a strange kind of reality. Nothing to do with the one I live in.
http://www.invoercalculator.be/
I just checked. The vast majority of the amount is BTW which I think is VAT, which is something you pay to your local government and has nothing to do with the EU or importing. You pay VAT on products produced by your neighbour too.

Can you please give a specific example that shows your statement to be true?
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Trump's trade war with China
« Reply #73 on: April 07, 2018, 08:52:52 pm »
It is indeed terrible. Globalists replaced the population in our area, and pushed the original population out, so they can't afford a home anymore. Starting up u a business is de-facto more and more being forbidden too, except "services" to serve the new lords.

The rankings you saw are made up by the unelected establisment.
You're apparently one of those types that believes any information that confirms his views is true and anything that opposes it is propaganda or a lie.  :palm: I suggest you travel the world a bit and see how well you're off when you live in the EU compared to almost all other parts of the world. It's certainly not perfect, but it could definitely be a lot worse.

I'm not really feeling like dealing with paranoid nightmares right now. Maybe other forum members are up for it.
 

Offline taydin

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Re: Trump's trade war with China
« Reply #74 on: April 07, 2018, 09:12:54 pm »
along with fact that NK is showing its willing to talk to the SK, that along made China quite nervous.

I think NK and SK talking would result in SK distancing itself from NATO, not NK getting closer to NATO. So, regarding the NK/SK talks, it's NATO that will be losing sleep, not China and Russia. NATO will do anything in their power to sabotage a NK/SK piece.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2018, 09:16:59 pm by taydin »
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