Author Topic: TSMC delays opening of Arizona plant.  (Read 2710 times)

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Offline schmitt triggerTopic starter

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TSMC delays opening of Arizona plant.
« on: July 21, 2023, 03:33:01 pm »
Due to a shortage of skilled workers.

That is what happens when a country outsources wholesale an industry. The old skilled workers who had the knowledge retire, and there are no younger generations to “carry the flag”.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-66264392
 

Offline dobsonr741

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Re: TSMC delays opening of Arizona plant.
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2023, 04:05:09 pm »
BBC missed to end of the sentence: “at the level of compensation the board approved”
 
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Online ataradov

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Re: TSMC delays opening of Arizona plant.
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2023, 04:42:38 pm »
Even if we did not outsource anything, there would not be skilled workers just sitting there waiting for a new fab to open to apply their skills. With something like this you have two options. Either hire away from exiting fabs or hire fresh people and train them. Either way, it costs money.
Alex
 
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Offline schmitt triggerTopic starter

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Re: TSMC delays opening of Arizona plant.
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2023, 05:26:13 pm »
…With something like this you have two options. Either hire away from exiting fabs or hire fresh people and train them…
That is exactly my point, which perhaps I didn’t make it clear enough. The country has to have an ecosystem where to draw this talent from.
 

Online ataradov

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Re: TSMC delays opening of Arizona plant.
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2023, 05:47:29 pm »
There are lots of operating fabs in the US that are doing fine hiring people. There is just not enough free floating people to staff an entirely new fab on demand. This was never the case.

TSMC just need to pay over what people already make to switch jobs, and they will have all the people they want. They are just not going to do that.

This is true for any business. Even staffing a new McDonalds is not as easy as it sounds.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2023, 05:49:17 pm by ataradov »
Alex
 
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Offline floobydust

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Re: TSMC delays opening of Arizona plant.
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2023, 06:59:21 pm »
This is about politics.
Foxconn Wisconsin did the same tricks, delay delay do nothing and cry for more tax credits, excuse A, excuse B etc. and ultimately never deliver. Totally screwed over the county that built roads, sewer/water/electrical infrastructure, upsized the university etc.
Now Microsoft is buying that land for a datacenter and of course they're getting tax breaks.

I don't believe it - "shortage of skilled workers" is the cry of employers over here and in reality they can't find cheap labour. Electronic techs for $17/hour meanwhile a cashier can make $20/hr. Gee I wonder why nobody is applying for the job? It must be a shortage of skilled workers!
Yeah as if there are people skilled in building fabs just lying around ANYWHERE in the world. As if it's hard to install "pipelines".

"TSMC and its suppliers are in talks with the U.S. government to assist with the application process for non-immigrant visas in a bid to dispatch more than 500 experienced workers as early as July to expedite the construction of cleanroom facilities and the installation of pipelines and other equipment, three chip supply chain executives said […]
“There are not enough U.S. workers who have good first-hand experience specifically on building semiconductor manufacturing facilities, and many are not familiar with the requirements for chipmaking plants,” one executive told Nikkei. “That has caused delays in multiple installation works” […]
“It is challenging and costly for Taiwanese cleanroom builders to communicate with foreign construction workers in an unfamiliar environment. Sending experienced construction contractors and their workers who worked with the chip suppliers before from Taiwan could save lots of time and costs,” one supplier said."
 
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Offline tom66

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Re: TSMC delays opening of Arizona plant.
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2023, 09:03:35 pm »
Just like a certain famous British vacuum cleaner designer, always complaining that finding good engineers is hard.

I ended up applying, and they offered me less than I was currently paid.  Er... yeah, what you mean is you want cheap engineers and there aren't enough of those!
 

Offline MT

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Re: TSMC delays opening of Arizona plant.
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2023, 09:47:25 pm »
Chip manufacturers have since day one been notorious for bickering about "special tax handling". Chip manufacturing is a highly politicized.  Shortage of skilled workers is BS.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: TSMC delays opening of Arizona plant.
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2023, 02:22:14 am »
Even if we did not outsource anything, there would not be skilled workers just sitting there waiting for a new fab to open to apply their skills. With something like this you have two options. Either hire away from exiting fabs or hire fresh people and train them. Either way, it costs money.

Yep. Unless you attract them with lots of money and benefits, skilled workers will already be employed elsewhere and will stay there.
All you'll be able to attract in the short term, or with not enough money, are beginners. Or maybe they are thinking of hiring tons of skilled workers from emerging countries, depleting the existing foundries from their workers. Who knows. :-DD

You need both time and lots of money to start a foundry in a western country these days.
 

Offline boB

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Re: TSMC delays opening of Arizona plant.
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2023, 02:52:18 am »

Yes, it's true !   

Money Talks.

Mine always says goodbye !

K7IQ
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: TSMC delays opening of Arizona plant.
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2023, 04:12:56 am »
[...] Money Talks. [...]

No - throwing money at technology such as semiconductors does not flip a switch and give you prizes.

china state-backed "Big Fund" set up in 2014 towards independence in semiconductor manufacturing, around $45B but massive corruption and disappearing exec's pretty much tell you it did not go far. The results are not there despite the State's wishes. You can't merely copy technology.

“It’s not possible to turn back the clock,” TSMC founder Morris Chang told a Taiwanese tech association in October. “If you want to re-establish a complete semiconductor supply chain in the United States, you will not find it to be a possible task, even after you spend hundreds of billions of dollars.”

Foxconn pulled the plug on $19.5B Vedanta joint venture for making semiconductors in India. Another developing nation that wants semi's.

Why would Taiwan give the US a leap ahead on semiconductor fab?
 

Offline dobsonr741

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Re: TSMC delays opening of Arizona plant.
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2023, 05:09:18 am »
I’m puzzled by the term skilled worker. For the construction of a site. A foundry has a well established structure, plans, processes - just need to apply to a new location. Then roll in the ASML machinery, bought and made elsewhere. A foundry does not need armies EEs to design chips - it’s a factory, not a design agency. They need skilled operators, that is trainable. Given operators trained on a certain process, the knowledge is also very specific to that process. Thus the training should also be part of the established foundry processes. Did I miss anything?
 

Online bdunham7

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Re: TSMC delays opening of Arizona plant.
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2023, 05:19:18 am »
Did I miss anything?

Yes.  Companies would like to hire people with 5 years experience on the exact machine being used, even if it came out only 3 years ago and then they would like them to relocate for pay of 50 cents over minimum wage.

A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline dobsonr741

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Re: TSMC delays opening of Arizona plant.
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2023, 05:41:25 am »
The Microchip ex CEO explained it well: “we do not really need the Biden money, we are well of anyway, thanks so much”

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/talking-with-steve-sanghi-ceo-of-microchip-for-31-years/

The point is it’s the company, not the labour shortage.
 

Offline rteodor

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Re: TSMC delays opening of Arizona plant.
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2023, 05:43:56 am »
Why would Taiwan give the US a leap ahead on semiconductor fab?

Because they want their own capital city.
 

Offline dobsonr741

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Re: TSMC delays opening of Arizona plant.
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2023, 05:59:30 am »
A tiny US fab is not going to put a dent into TSMC’s domination. This YouTuber has many posts on TSMC and quite enjoyable if you are into knowing how TSMC operates:

https://youtu.be/fRhfvSDyJdY
 

Offline magic

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Re: TSMC delays opening of Arizona plant.
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2023, 06:08:32 am »
"TSMC and its suppliers are in talks with the U.S. government to assist with the application process for non-immigrant visas in a bid to dispatch more than 500 experienced workers as early as July to expedite the construction of cleanroom facilities and the installation of pipelines and other equipment, three chip supply chain executives said […]
“There are not enough U.S. workers who have good first-hand experience specifically on building semiconductor manufacturing facilities, and many are not familiar with the requirements for chipmaking plants,” one executive told Nikkei. “That has caused delays in multiple installation works” […]
In the US, "shortage of skilled workers" is the magic password you say to the government which unlocks foreign workforce import.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: TSMC delays opening of Arizona plant.
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2023, 10:56:51 am »
I’m puzzled by the term skilled worker. For the construction of a site. A foundry has a well established structure, plans, processes - just need to apply to a new location. Then roll in the ASML machinery, bought and made elsewhere. A foundry does not need armies EEs to design chips - it’s a factory, not a design agency. They need skilled operators, that is trainable. Given operators trained on a certain process, the knowledge is also very specific to that process. Thus the training should also be part of the established foundry processes. Did I miss anything?

It was my understanding a great deal of the people who work at TSMC in the fabs do have masters or similar level degrees, some may even have PhD's.  These are highly technical fields, and it's not just replicating a single process, you have to adapt to the different process nodes, handle various customer requirements, service the machines and understand what might cause a process to fail or reduce yield.

Looking at Glassdoor, the lowest salary listed for "Equipment Operator" is $60k USD, and a senior engineer can get $120k.
 

Offline Wallace Gasiewicz

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Re: TSMC delays opening of Arizona plant.
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2023, 12:59:00 pm »
I have worked at a R&D facility that employed over 20K. I was and still am surprised at the pay scales. Skilled trades frequently make much more than engineers.You could see the decline of the industry before your very eyes.A janitor with overtime could make more than an engineer.
That is not an encouragement to go into engineering. I dropped out of engineering school partially because of this.
Pay scales for engineering have been far too low in my lifetime.Unfortunately this cannot be changed quickly since engineering is not just a junior college degree.
Concerning the operator's 60K, in my limited experience a worker in semiconductor industry is more like a skilled trade and skilled trades in auto plants make 60K and probably have much better benefits.

Concerning the Taiwan Semiconductor industry, there is one more important strategic point to make. If Taiwan and Japan do not continue to control the semiconductors, there is less reason for the US to defend them against incursion.
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: TSMC delays opening of Arizona plant.
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2023, 01:31:01 pm »
"TSMC and its suppliers are in talks with the U.S. government to assist with the application process for non-immigrant visas in a bid to dispatch more than 500 experienced workers as early as July to expedite the construction of cleanroom facilities and the installation of pipelines and other equipment, three chip supply chain executives said […]
“There are not enough U.S. workers who have good first-hand experience specifically on building semiconductor manufacturing facilities, and many are not familiar with the requirements for chipmaking plants,” one executive told Nikkei. “That has caused delays in multiple installation works” […]
In the US, "shortage of skilled workers" is the magic password you say to the government which unlocks CHEAP foreign H2 Visa workforce import.

   Fixed it for you. 
 

Offline Bud

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Re: TSMC delays opening of Arizona plant.
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2023, 02:48:15 pm »
I do not buy that argument. "Existense" of skilled workers out there that build chipmaking plants left and right. How many exactly chipmaking plants and foundries are built every year these days? Not many if any, I guess. And if the domestic workforce are "not familiar with chipmaking plants requirements", get the goddamn Requirements and standards documents and read them.
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: TSMC delays opening of Arizona plant.
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2023, 03:15:19 pm »
No highly qualified tech worker is going to leave a job rich environment like Silicon Gulch to move to a one-employer town in the middle of nowhere.  The companies know this, or should, and realize they are going to have to grow their own.  They would like to get some help from community colleges in terms of specialty training classes and, probably more important, math.  Not math for the sake of numbers necessarily but rather an approach to problem solving.  There will always be a surplus of problems.

There are other problems, notably supply chain.  Specialty gases, specialty chemicals, specialty facility equipment (DI water production for example), filters, UV lamps, a whole shopping list of things that won't be available locally and the profit from dealing with a single customer (or short list of customers) won't entice a local supplier to get involved.

Hazmat disposal is another issue as is sewer treatment capacity.  I don't know how wet the processes are today but even a modest fab would use about a half million gallons of water per day back in the mid '80s.  I couldn't imagine what a mega-fab would take based on those processes.

Power requirements could be quite large if diffusion furnaces are still part of the procress.  Given the internal heat gain (substantial) the HVAC systems are quite large.  Thousand ton chillers (more than one) are certainly in the mix.  Water and sewer systems will be strained no matter where the site is placed.

These issues are not unknown, the companies just want somebody else to help pay for them.

Don't forget specialty training for first responders!  Often the companies provide a level of response but that won't include large scale events.  Does the Building Department even understand what they are approving?

 

Offline dobsonr741

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Re: TSMC delays opening of Arizona plant.
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2023, 04:07:59 pm »
These are the job listings for TSMC:
https://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=TSMC&l=Arizona

This is how it looks - 60 pics on Google map:
https://goo.gl/maps/g4sVJr41wSVDTWCK6

The minimum they ask for a mask process engineer:

Applicants must be legally eligible to work in the United States and have:

A minimum of a B.S. Degree in an engineering and scientific field such as Physics, Material Science, Chemical Engineering, Electric Engineering, Chemistry, or Mechanical Engineering. Master degree and above is preferred.

  • No prior experience required, need good communication and interpersonal skills that enable you to work on cross-functional and geographically dispersed teams.
  • Able to adapt priorities and responsibilities to support business needs.
  • A team player that can multitask and thrive in a very dynamic and fast-paced environment.
  • Ability to travel to Taiwan for training for up to 6 months if needed.

 

Offline Wallace Gasiewicz

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Re: TSMC delays opening of Arizona plant.
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2023, 04:30:49 pm »
QUOTE:   

Mr Liu said the plant, which has been under construction since April 2021, faced a shortage of workers with the "specialised expertise required for equipment installation in a semiconductor-grade facility."
This says that the problem is in installation of equipment.Usually any new equipment in a factory comes with a cadre of technicians and engineers that are from the company that makes the equipment. They tend to upset all your Plant Engineers and verbal altercations are common.
Are they saying the equipment manufacturers do not have installation experts??? I highly doubt that. 

Finding resident Plant Engineers would be another story.  Lots of specialized stuff. Finding plant engineers with qualifications in stuff like Arsine Gas Safety and Laminar Air Flow and air filtering and strict temperature conditions might be difficult.  All this and the waste safety and Industrial Hygiene experts and even roof engineers, But this is a continuing job, not just start up help. These Plant Engineers exist. you just have to pry them away from their present jobs. Money solves that problem all the time. 
And besides that, there might be some older Engineers who are thinking of retiring to Arizona and would welcome a few year stint in their potential retirement paradise.


 
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Offline TimFox

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Re: TSMC delays opening of Arizona plant.
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2023, 07:01:29 pm »
There are immigration/red-tape issues with having installation engineers from a foreign country on site for an extended period:  work permits, etc.
 


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