ubuntu snobbery

[Simon]

Well decided to take another look at Ubuntu again. I tried it out on my laptop with dual boot.

Can anyone offer a more sensible user friendly flavour of linux that does not have the snobbery but hopefully runs programs like KiCAD

Well I'm dumbstruck - firstly by the poor performance (due to it completely ignoring the hardware and treating everything as just some bog standard bit of legacy kit if it see's it at all) and still unnecessary complication of the user interface along with deliberate snobby differences to windows (like putting the close, minimize and maximize buttons on the opposite side even though earlier they were on the right like windows and not the left along with the loss of a proper program menu list) along with some similarities despite them claiming snobbily that linux is not windows like copy, paste and cut keyboard shortcuts being the same along with shift+delete deleting a file bypassing the rubbish bin.

despite all the pitch lines about how ubuntu runs on millions of devices all over the world and is great for beginners for custom use or indeed simple setting up of the pc's hardware you apparently need to have full command of the terminal - bit of a contradiction there !

[shebu18]

I don't recommend the new versions of ubuntu. The best would be 10.04 or 9.04 in the 32bit configuration. Ok, the new sidebar would be nice but the system gets instable.

[Bored@Work]

Ubuntu's company, Canonical, recently made a few very unfortunate decisions when it comes to the Desktop, pissing off a lot of Ubuntu users.

Alternatives are

(a) Going back to Ubuntu 10.4 LTE and if necessary applying the fix to change the window icons back to were they belong (I don't remember if Canonical screwed them up in 10.4 LTE already or only later).

(b) Moving to Mint Linux, current release is Mint 12.

Regarding hardware support, Ubuntu is one of the Linux versions that probably supports the most hardware out of the box, including special performance-enhancement drivers for e.g. the graphics card. However, there are still some black spots that every Linux suffers from, not only Ubuntu. In my experience, wireless, multimedia (audio, video), and a lot of laptop-specific hardware is the most problematic. If you happen to have such hardware you are screwed with whatever Linux distribution you use.

In some rare cases you can find some driver source code somewhere on the net. But getting such random driver source code running is a gamble these days. One of the reasons Linux distributions got so popular is because people are pissed of having to build drivers and applying magic to get it running.

[oliver602]

All desktop environments seam to be moving away from the traditional old windows like interface, ie Gnome 3, Ubuntu's Unity, Mac OS X and the new Windows 8 tile interface. The program menus in Ubuntu are at the top of the screen like Mac OS X when the window you are interested in is in the foreground. If your having problems with video performance, make sure you have installed the proprietary graphics drivers for your card if it's an Nvidia. There is a utility for doing that in the control panel somewhere.  Performance issues may be related to obscure hardware(proprietary, not reverse engineered, no support from manufacturer for Linux). I always check linux support for hardware before buying now, saves lots of hassel. Alternative desktop environments like KDE and XFCE are also available.

Sorry I can't offer advice on an alternative distribution, I've been fairly happy with Ubuntu and I'm not good with the command line. I'll leave that question to someone else.

[Simon]

I posted a thread on the ubuntu forum, it was quite blunt but was open minded and meant to provide a new commers view on the claims they make, it was closed even though a dialogue of help had started. So I think I got the message.

Someone did suggest Mint, I'm looking into it at the moment

[oliver602]

Have you looked at http://distrowatch.com/ ?  If you have some time you can check out the top distro sites listed and download Live CD's(if available) to try out and find one you like before installing.

[alm]

Can anyone offer a more sensible user friendly flavour of linux that does not have the snobbery but hopefully runs programs like KiCAD

Most of the other popular flavors like Fedora and Arch are definitely less user friendly in my opinion. Linux Mint, as suggested by BoredAtWork, might be worth a look.

Well I'm dumbstruck - firstly by the poor performance (due to it completely ignoring the hardware and treating everything as just some bog standard bit of legacy kit if it see's it at all)

You're unlikely to get much better hardware support in other distributions unless it happens to be supported by a slightly newer version of whatever software is responsible (eg. kernel or X). If it's graphics hardware, there's an option in Ubuntu to install proprietary AMD/nVidia drivers with just a few clicks from the system settings -> hardware -> additional drivers dialog.

and still unnecessary complication of the user interface along with deliberate snobby differences to windows (like putting the close, minimize and maximize buttons on the opposite side even though earlier they were on the right like windows and not the left along with the loss of a proper program menu list)

So copying Windows is correct but copying Mac OS is snobbery? If you want a Windows clone, just use Windows.

along with some similarities despite them claiming snobbily that linux is not windows like copy, paste and cut keyboard shortcuts being the same along with shift+delete deleting a file bypassing the rubbish bin.

Most of these shortcuts pre-date Windows. I believe the ctrl+C/V/X/Z shortcuts came from the original Macintosh (maybe even earlier) and the ctrl/shift+ins/del stuff came from some IBM standard in the DOS days.

despite all the pitch lines about how ubuntu runs on millions of devices all over the world and is great for beginners for custom use or indeed simple setting up of the pc's hardware you apparently need to have full command of the terminal - bit of a contradiction there !

Posting rants without useful details is usually a good way to get problems solved.

(a) Going back to Ubuntu 10.4 LTE and if necessary applying the fix to change the window icons back to were they belong (I don't remember if Canonical screwed them up in 10.4 LTE already or only later).

Putting the controls back in the right corner can be fixed in gconf. Not exactly user-friendly, but better than the Windows registry that Windows often requires you to edit. I don't really mind them being in the other corner, at least since they just copied the Mac order instead of the first iteration which was minimize-maximize-close.

In some rare cases you can find some driver source code somewhere on the net. But getting such random driver source code running is a gamble these days. One of the reasons Linux distributions got so popular is because people are pissed of having to build drivers and applying magic to get it running.

If the driver is not in the most recent distributions, you're usually screwed in my experience. Unless support was just added in the next kernel release. Third party drivers that are not included in the kernel are often unmaintained, incomplete or unstable. Otherwise they would have been included.

[Simon]

All desktop environments seam to be moving away from the traditional old windows like interface, ie Gnome 3, Ubuntu's Unity, Mac OS X and the new Windows 8 tile interface. The program menus in Ubuntu are at the top of the screen like Mac OS X

you mean the menu's that provide a lot of stuff that is less useful to me if I can't even find what I have installed andthey vary according to the theme, when I choose hi contrast theme I lost the power menu and to shut down I had to search for it I mean WTF ? and they like to remind me that linux is not windows, well buggy programmers are programmers by the looks of it

[Simon]

and still unnecessary complication of the user interface along with deliberate snobby differences to windows (like putting the close, minimize and maximize buttons on the opposite side even though earlier they were on the right like windows and not the left along with the loss of a proper program menu list)

So copying Windows is correct but copying Mac OS is snobbery? If you want a Windows clone, just use Windows.

How many people switch from mac to linux ? I thought later versions of mac were based on linux so no surprise there, as I said I am sure previous versions of ubuntu had the close, mi and max buttons to the right !

[firewalker]

Simon, you wan;t just another OS or you want to dive in GNU/Linux? Ubuntu is ok if you wan;t something that  just does the job. Try not to think the Windows way though.

I would recommend Slackware, Debian, ArchLinux if you want to really know GNU/Linux and you are a beginner. I really don't believe that Ubuntu is suitable for beginners. It somehow tricks the user to believe that GNU/Linux is something different that it really is.

I am using GNU/Linux for more than 10 years.

Also have a look at Linux != Windows.

Alexander.

[Simon]

what annoyed me most was the sheer snobbery and contradictions. an OS for the beginner, you need need to know all the terminal commands and no I could not work out how to install propriety drivers, the window for it was as blank as the look on my face.

[Simon]

Simon, you wan;t just another OS or you want to dive in GNU/Linux? Ubuntu is ok if you wan;t something thhttps://www.eevblog.com/forum/Smileys/default/cry.gifat  just does the job. Try not to think the Windows way though.

I would recommend Slackware, Debian, ArchLinux if you want to really know GNU/Linux and you are a beginner. I really don't believe that Ubuntu is suitable for beginners. It somehow tricks the user to believe that GNU/Linux is something different that it really is.

I am using GNU/Linux for more than 10 years.

Also have a look at Linux != Windows.

Alexander.

I just want a reliable and usable OS, if ReactOS was mature enough I'd use that

[firewalker]

If you know your GNU/Linux, Ubuntu is a very easy and a very good OS/tool.

For me GNU/Linux made everything easy as an engineer. Skyrocketed my productivity (when using a computer). Don;t know why but everything is clear for me. Everything makes sense when using GNU/Linux. When I was using windows years ago I was feeling something was wrong.

Alexander.

[Lightages]

Simon:

My experience with trying to move to Linux was the same as you. I tried on the more bleeding edge Fedora. The paradigm shift in thinking wasn't that hard. What was hard for me was the scattered approach to many things. I was able to get some of what I wanted working and then the next software package might install could bring the whole pile of cards crashing down when it broke some dependency. So I was always left with a system that would not do what I wanted unless I was willing to write and compile my own software and spend hours chasing down dependencies. In the end I came to the conclusion that I was spending more time trying to get my computer to do what I wanted than I was actually doing things with my computer.

When I asked for help there some people who were very helpful but the help was ultimately fruitless for the above reasons. The vast majority of the "help" was snobbery and elitism. In the end I decided to stop making Linux run my main use for a computer and went back to Windows.  I sincerely wanted to make Linux work as an overall desktop solution for me but it was not possible.  One thing that drove me crazy was the insistence on cryptic folder names. Now let me see, was that usr/etc/sbin or was it etc/bin/sbin/usr or was it......

If you have one or two dedicated uses for Linux in a desktop environment, then it works. If you want a good server platform it is hard to beat Linux. If you want to use your computer in an everyday multi-use don't worry about the next installation of software disabling some other crucial piece of software (not that Windows doesn't break), then forget Linux. As a dual boot for one or two program thing then it all depends on how much time you have to waste getting it working the way you want.

[Simon]

When I asked for help there some people who were very helpful but the help was ultimately fruitless for the above reasons. The vast majority of the "help" was snobbery and elitism. In the end I decided to stop making Linux run my main use for a computer and went back to Windows.  I sincerely wanted to make Linux work as an overall desktop solution for me but it was not possible.  One thing that drove me crazy was the insistence on cryptic folder names. Now let me see, was that usr/etc/sbin or was it etc/bin/sbin/usr or was it......

I can certainly identify with that in my recent experience

[don.r]

How many people switch from mac to linux ? I thought later versions of mac were based on linux so no surprise there, as I said I am sure previous versions of ubuntu had the close, mi and max buttons to the right !

No. Later versions (10.0 and up) are based on BSD Unix. Linux is yet another branch off the Unix tree. The User Interfaces are completely unrelated as the OSX one is based on a hybrid Mac OS 9 and Nextstep and Linux is all over the shop.

The directory names are a legacy of the Unix roots. OSX does a better job of hiding these things than does Linux. I'm not a huge fan of Linux for the desktop, support being one of the issues, as you have found out. That is not to say the there are Windows and certainly Mac users that are not snobby but there seem to be fewer, particularly in the Windows world.

[NiHaoMike]

I use Gentoo, but that's really for advanced users.

[Bored@Work]

I posted a thread on the ubuntu forum, it was quite blunt but was open minded and meant to provide a new commers view on the claims they make, it was closed even though a dialogue of help had started.

In other words, you left them a steaming pile of turd in their forum and expected them to taste it with a spoon. And you are surprised they didn't want to do it?

I mean, the fact is that Linux, in hundreds of different incarnations, works well for millions of people. Why do you think you could convince millions of people that it doesn't, just because you don't like it? It is not like the Linux world is waiting for some elucidation.

Sure, some distributions do make terrible decisions, like Canonical with the latest Ubuntu changes. But do you think you are the first one pointing that out? It has been discussed in the Ubuntu communities ad nausea. People are beyond discussion for some time now, they vote with their feet, making Mint the new rock star of Linux distributions, surpassing Ubuntu.

[Simon]

I posted a thread on the ubuntu forum, it was quite blunt but was open minded and meant to provide a new commers view on the claims they make, it was closed even though a dialogue of help had started.

In other words, you left them a steaming pile of turd in their forum and expected them to taste it with a spoon. And you are surprised they didn't want to do it?

I mean, the fact is that Linux, in hundreds of different incarnations, works well for millions of people. Why do you think you could convince millions of people that it doesn't, just because you don't like it? It is not like the Linux world is waiting for some elucidation.

Sure, some distributions do make terrible decisions, like Canonical with the latest Ubuntu changes. But do you think you are the first one pointing that out? It has been discussed in the Ubuntu communities ad nausea. People are beyond discussion for some time now, they vote with their feet, making Mint the new rock star of Linux distributions, surpassing Ubuntu.

As you say millions are happy with linux I am refering to my recent experience with ubuntu which I doubt has millions of followers. This is not a debate for or against linux it is actually a debate about support for ubuntu and it usability, don't derail in another direction. I am afraid that I no nothing of what canonical did neither do I care, my concern is that the system is usable, lives up to it's mission statement (easy to use ideal for a beginner) and has support, not a bunch of nerds that want to keep things obscure because it makes them feel special

I did explain that I was not trying to just dis ubuntu but felt that I could offer a willing newcomers perspective and help them understand what it is like for one who is not a linux nerd trying to enter their graces world. There was no need to lock the thread without explanation, sounds like someones ego was damaged

[firewalker]

One other issue with GNU/Linux is the incomplete documentation and the scattered information. Some years ago you could solve every problem with a "smart" Google search. Now (Ubuntu helped) it's really difficult for a new user to seek and find answers in this mess of information. Advanced and old users is mole likely tired to say the same things again and again (of course there are 1337 and sophomoric users that make thing even harder). Mainly thing you can easily find by reading the man page e.g. I started with GNU/Linux when internet was a luxury. I was buying books at the time, no other info to use.

Alexander.

[Simon]

One other issue with GNU/Linux is the incomplete documentation and the scattered information. Some years ago you could solve every problem with a "smart" Google search. Now (Ubuntu helped) it's really difficult for a new user to seek and find answers in this mess of information. Advanced and old users is mole likely tired to say the same things again and again (of course there are 1337 and sophomoric users that make thing even harder). Mainly thing you can easily find by reading the man page e.g. I started with GNU/Linux when internet was a luxury. I was buying books at the time, no other info to use.

Alexander.

yea documentation was a bit patchy and there are pages and pages of unofficial info full of links so it just never ends

[steff]

Well decided to take another look at Ubuntu again. I tried it out on my laptop with dual boot.

Can anyone offer a more sensible user friendly flavour of linux that does not have the snobbery but hopefully runs programs like KiCAD

Well I'm dumbstruck - firstly by the poor performance (due to it completely ignoring the hardware and treating everything as just some bog standard bit of legacy kit if it see's it at all) and still unnecessary complication of the user interface

Mainline Ubuntu is currently going through contortions to try to make an interface that goes beyond the typical Windows-clone file manager and start menu, and as you've noticed not currently doing very tidy job.

That said, the core of Ubuntu is pretty much Debian with more up-to-date packages and usually does amongst the best jobs of hardware detection of all Linux distributions. I'd recommend Xubuntu (Ubuntu with XFCE replacing the standard interface) or Lubuntu (ditto but with LXDE). You'll find them more minimal and less tiresomely experimental.

Disclaimer: I'm a long-time Linux and FreeBSD user going back to Slackware 3 with kernel 1.2, so I'm very happy with the terminal. In my opinion if you want a UNIX-type OS that "Just Works^tm" what you're after is a Mac. Much of this is because a lot of modern hardware refuses to work without random bits of binary firmware and driver support which can't be GPLed (and thus included in Linux distros by default). Ubuntu isn't perfect, but it's a pretty good compromise - it'll happy eg configure a random PAYG 3G stick out of the box.

[Simon]

The current ubuntu user interface is crap, it is designed to be just different for the sake of it and this sacrifices practicality. I don't care what OS a principle comes from, if it works then use it for christs sake !

The forum users who "dealt with me" acted like having a program menu is backward and heresy. Well sorry for upsetting some touchy people, I should have bowed down to their idea that just to be different from windows it is a great idea to go looking for your apps like a lost data file. and if your going to put all the programs in a folder call it something logical so that you know what it is, I can crawl my way all over windows not because I was taguht but guess what ? the windows files are in a foldercalled surprise surprise: windows, and the programs are put in this really obscure folder called "programs", and they even kept 32 and 64 bit programs seperate so I can actually identify them without having to look more information up. (oh and app, that is not so original a name that was stolen from macs and the smartphone world, might as well keep calling them programs like the rest of the normal world does).

I'm not saying that things should be like windows, just laid out logically so that they are intuitive

[Simon]

oh and who came up with libreoffice ? built to work with the open odf format. err I thought that odf was the openoffice format that works across platforms, or is that the problem, is that why ubuntu does not come preloaded with openoffice but libreoffice ? just to make sure it distinguishes itself from windows...... and further complicates the transition

[alm]

My experience with trying to move to Linux was the same as you. I tried on the more bleeding edge Fedora. The paradigm shift in thinking wasn't that hard. What was hard for me was the scattered approach to many things. I was able to get some of what I wanted working and then the next software package might install could bring the whole pile of cards crashing down when it broke some dependency.

Guess it's called bleeding edge for a reason...

So I was always left with a system that would not do what I wanted unless I was willing to write and compile my own software and spend hours chasing down dependencies. In the end I came to the conclusion that I was spending more time trying to get my computer to do what I wanted than I was actually doing things with my computer.

In my experience these issues are rare as long as you install software from the stock repositories. Once you start adding third-party repositories or install software from other sources, dependency issues can crop up. The number of available packages in Fedora is significantly lower than Debian and its derivatives (eg. Ubuntu. Mint), so finding software that's not available in the repositories is somewhat more likely.

On properly maintained Linux systems, new software breaking existing software is very rare. Ever wonder why Windows admins insist on one dedicated server per application and love virtualizing dozens of almost idle Windows server in one box, but why *nix admins don't mind having multiple apps on one server?

oh and who came up with libreoffice ? built to work with the open odf format. err I thought that odf was the openoffice format that works across platforms, or is that the problem, is that why ubuntu does not come preloaded with openoffice but libreoffice ? just to make sure it distinguishes itself from windows...... and further complicates the transition

Please keep ranting without paying attention to facts, it's entertaining! OpenOffice.org was owned by Sun, and often refused to fix long-standing bugs. When Oracle bought Sun an essentially discontinued OpenOffice.org development, a bunch of developers forked OpenOffice.org and called it LibreOffice. They immediately started to fix some long-standing bugs and have now become the most active OpenOffice.org branch. The reason that they call it LibreOffice is because Oracle owns the OpenOffice trademark, so they couldn't legally call it OpenOffice. If you use OpenOffice.org on Windows, I would also suggest moving to LibreOffice. Nothing to do with distinguishing itself from Windows, and I don't see how a different splash screen complicates the transition.