Author Topic: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries  (Read 24147 times)

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Offline kjsTopic starter

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uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« on: April 06, 2015, 07:54:38 am »
After reading Davids blog and his comment that he got far to many returns from Germany and some other European countries I was a bit puzzled and investigated a bit. Fortunately I found someone in Germany who was lucky enough to get his delivered and I could ask him what was included in the shipment.

First problem is that for everything which exceeds €22 (product plus shipping cost) USt (VAT/TVA/GST) of 19% (Germany) or similar (18-20%) in other EU countries have to be paid. If the recipient doesn't pay on time the goods are returned. If the shipping cost isn't shown they will estimate it which can be much higher than the real cost.

Next issue is declaration of goods. For all European Economic Area (EEA) countries which is more than the EU itself all electronic goods imported have to have a RoHS declaration as well as a CE declaration in the shipment. As the uCurrent doesn't have a voltage specification below 50VAC and 75VDC it has to at least fulfil the the Low Voltage Directive (LVD) and the Electromagnetic Compatibility (EMC) Directive. This has to be shown either by a test report summary from an accredited lab or in case of self-certification by the tests performed in accordance with the directive. If these 3 declarations and the CE marking are missing there's a good chance that the shipment gets turned around and goes back to Australia. Getting these test performed by an accredited lab will run anywhere from €1800 to €5000.......
The German customs office just seems to be more efficient in catching these things than their neighbours. They seem to catch  less.....

At least the shipment to the guy which got his through didn't have any of these declarations included. He paid the 19% USt after he showed the total amount including shipping on his receipt and was lucky to be done.

Recently I had a similar issue with PCB's into Switzerland. I added the RoHS declaration of the Shenzen board manufacturer and they had screwed it up and used lead HASL instead of the ordered and declared lead free HASL. The Swiss customs guys used their lead-scanner and I got the entire batch back, real fun (not).
 

Offline Owen

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2015, 09:17:21 am »
Next issue is declaration of goods. For all European Economic Area (EEA) countries which is more than the EU itself all electronic goods imported have to have a RoHS declaration as well as a CE declaration in the shipment. As the uCurrent doesn't have a voltage specification below 50VAC and 75VDC it has to at least fulfil the the Low Voltage Directive (LVD) and the Electromagnetic Compatibility (EMC) Directive.

The LVD is only valid for devices with 75 V to 1500 V DC or 50 V to 1000V AC (input/output). See http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/electrical/lvd/index_en.htm... This shouldn't be the case. I would imagine that they've been returned because they didn't have any RoHS and CE Marks on it, as you said. If Dave would put these stickers on his µCurrents it wouldn't be a problem, i assume. I wouldn't even install the banana terminals and declare it as a electronic measurement kit, so there is no µCurrent avaible for Europe just a µCurrent kit :).
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 10:22:07 am by Owen »
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2015, 09:30:31 am »
It always depends on the guy you have in Germany at the "Zollamt"
At one time I even had a problem with a Logitech Keyboard K750, USA Version.
That one did not have a CE sign on the outside of the box and they did not want to give it to me for hazard reasons.
Luckily, I found the CE sign on the Keyboard and I finally was allowed to take it.

But, if it is declared as a "Research kit" you can get almost anything, even if it does not have a CE sign.

I really do not mind paying the fee and the VAT and I would rather pay more...
But the hassle here where I live in Germany is terrible, each time I go there to pick something up.
Long waiting lines and horrible service and try to explain to some of these people an Oscilloscope or a current clamp probe or an LCR meter.

At one time I got a package from Japan with a small instrument and the seller (probably knowing the trouble with the German Zoll) declared on the outside of the box and on the invoice: "adult plastic toy" !
It was delivered to my house without being opened up for inspection.

   
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Offline rob77

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2015, 09:38:23 am »
At one time I got a package from Japan with a small instrument and the seller (probably knowing the trouble with the German Zoll) declared on the outside of the box and on the invoice: "adult plastic toy" !
It was delivered to my house without being opened up for inspection.
:-DD :-DD that's hilarious !

btw. delivering in disassembled state (populated PCB, separate box and screw terminals) and declaring it as electronic parts should work for the whole EU.
 

Offline mcinque

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2015, 10:02:41 am »
I don't think you can avoid EMC directive by simply shipping things that require some assembly or by declaring it as "only for research": otherwise any company would do the same to dramatically cut the design costs (think only about the shielding cages on a pcb) and certification procedure times.
 

Offline rob77

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2015, 10:10:44 am »
I don't think you can avoid EMC directive by simply shipping things that require some assembly or by declaring it as "only for research": otherwise any company would do the same to dramatically cut the design costs (think only about the shielding cages on a pcb) and certification procedure times.

the "any" company has usually end customers requiring a fully functional product - so they simply can't do it. according to your assumption every part would need EMC , CE... whatever.  and we know it's not the case - the final product must be compliant , not the parts.
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2015, 10:32:26 am »
If I declare the need for research and development, I can almost buy anything in parts, as long as I buy it for my company.
Only the final end product has to fulfill the requirements for end users
At least in Germany that is the case.
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Offline SeanB

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2015, 11:07:46 am »
At one time I got a package from Japan with a small instrument and the seller (probably knowing the trouble with the German Zoll) declared on the outside of the box and on the invoice: "adult plastic toy" !
It was delivered to my house without being opened up for inspection.
:-DD :-DD that's hilarious !

btw. delivering in disassembled state (populated PCB, separate box and screw terminals) and declaring it as electronic parts should work for the whole EU.

Next thing to be sent to Dave will have that as the contents description. so as to comply with the inside I will of course add something of that nature that I have lying around, electronic of course...........  >:D
 

Offline mcinque

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2015, 11:12:14 am »
according to your assumption every part would need EMC , CE... whatever.
Of course no, we all know that only the final product need CE and EMC since any CE or EMC compliance in the single parts has no value when they are put toghether, as they become a new "device" that requires a proper testing.

the final product must be compliant , not the parts.
Yes. And you can't avoid compliance tests by simply selling a final product splitting it in parts.
The objective of the directive is to have products that does not interfere with each others, so it would be silly to allow a product to be excluded from the directive only because you are selling with some parts to be put together. Think about a 10W 88-108 MHz broadband FM transmitter in kit: do you think you can avoid troubles only because you're selling it as a kit? Do you think that you will be not sued since it's the final user that put together the parts and power it?
If you provide all the parts for the final product (so JUST by assembling them you have a functional product) you are selling a final product.
and if it's for a final user (not a company) you can't avoid EMC directive.
I strongly believe that many companies would avoid EMC compliance if they could.

If I declare the need for research and development, I can almost buy anything in parts, as long as I buy it for my company.
Only the final end product has to fulfill the requirements for end users
At least in Germany that is the case.
This is an EU directive, we cannot talk about Germany only.

Yes, you can declare a product is for research and development, but only if you are a company, and by taking your responsibilities (it's NOT only a "not my problem" phrase). But if you are an "end user", like an hobbist, how can you declare that?
 

Offline Towger

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2015, 11:45:26 am »
But only Germany appears to have problems.  BTW, I have had no problems importing Broadcast FM kits and I am not talking about basic toy kits, it is only their use which regulated.
Years are there was a court case were one radio pirate proved that his transmitter had a alternative use. He cooked toast on it. So the judge let him off.  He much later got done for being a pedophile.
 

Offline amyk

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2015, 12:43:28 pm »
At one time I got a package from Japan with a small instrument and the seller (probably knowing the trouble with the German Zoll) declared on the outside of the box and on the invoice: "adult plastic toy" !
It was delivered to my house without being opened up for inspection.
:-DD Probably works only for items coming from Japan...
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2015, 01:39:56 pm »
If I declare the need for research and development, I can almost buy anything in parts, as long as I buy it for my company.
Only the final end product has to fulfill the requirements for end users
At least in Germany that is the case.
This is an EU directive, we cannot talk about Germany only.

Therein lies the problem. A "directive" is only a bare framework, it is up to the local legislatures of each member state to determine how a directive is implemented in detail.

(In addition, in certain states like France, for example, they can also exhibit local selectivity on implementation by pronouncing "Bof".)
 

Offline bitwelder

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2015, 02:54:36 pm »
btw. delivering in disassembled state (populated PCB, separate box and screw terminals) and declaring it as electronic parts should work for the whole EU.
Any idea to what point can this rule be applied for a semi-disassembled item (up to the extreme case, e.g. everything has been mounted except ICs have not been plugged into their sockets) ?
 

Online zapta

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2015, 03:02:13 pm »
This thread made to appreciate the lesser government control and taxing here. It's also a reminder that we shouldn't take it for granted.
 

Offline Zad

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2015, 03:55:56 pm »
I remember just before the Raspberry Pi was launched, and they went into partnership with Farnell and RS Components. Up until this point they had only intended making a few thousand, and there was no real thought about CE / EMC testing, but Farnell wisely decided that they should do the whole RF anechoic chamber thing, and it was all a bit of a stressful rush. Anyway, the point was that the RaspPi was intended to be used as a component, or for experimentation rather than an end-user item, and the legal advice had been that no testing or compliance marking was necessary.

It is not unlike agricultural vehicles. Farmers here in the UK (and probably a lot of other places too) can basically run any heap of junk on the road, with no need for Department of Transport testing, emissions regulations or whatever. The assumption is that the person using it knows what they are doing.

I think in this case that Dave probably needs to write on the packaging that the contents are industrial test equipment which require some user assembly.

Offline kjsTopic starter

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2015, 06:47:02 pm »
This thread made to appreciate the lesser government control and taxing here. It's also a reminder that we shouldn't take it for granted.

That's unfortunately only partially true. Yes, tariffs for stuff from China are usually 0% as everything comes from China anyhow. US companies have long and successfully lobbied to have that zero tariff. Try to import from other countries and it also roars its ugly head.

It is also a question whether a government should look out for their citizen or not. A middle ground between what the EU does and the US way most likely would be the best. There are also many good things in how the EU protects buyers compared to the way the US is protecting mainly the big money.
 

Offline German_EE

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2015, 07:29:46 pm »
What I cannot understand is why Dave is having all these problems yet I get packages from Mouser and various Chinese EBay sellers without problems. The last package was an LCD display costing about seventy Euro and I never paid a cent in duty.
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Offline mcinque

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2015, 07:45:40 pm »
BTW, I have had no problems importing Broadcast FM kits
If you was an end user for those kits, it's not your problem. Any issue about the compliance it's never an end-user's matter. It's always a manufacturer (or importer/reseller) responsibility. Anyone that sells the product. Customs are strange, sometimes they fear that someone could act as a private just to import non-CE devices, to resell them as a company.

Years are there was a court case were one radio pirate proved that his transmitter had a alternative use. He cooked toast on it. So the judge let him off.
Well, it reminds me when Homer Simpson uses his gun to open beer cans.  :-DD

 

Offline rob77

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2015, 07:53:01 pm »
What I cannot understand is why Dave is having all these problems yet I get packages from Mouser and various Chinese EBay sellers without problems. The last package was an LCD display costing about seventy Euro and I never paid a cent in duty.

it depends on the laziness of the customs :D btw... upto 22Eur it's no fees, 22-150 Eur you have to pay local VAT and above 150 it's VAT + customs duty. i think it's the same for the whole EU.
 

Offline Neganur

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2015, 08:37:50 pm »
Unless I'm mistaken, 'customs duty' does not depend on the item price* but solely on the country of origin (what is meant here is the country where the item was manufactured).

*: No customs duty or VAT is levied for items that don't exceed 22 EUR. I have never heard of a 150 EUR rule. You're right, it's 150 EUR (except certain goods like alcohol & tobacco), and none is charged if the duty amount is less than 10 EUR. Has this finally been harmonized? Countries may decide to not charge if the VAT amount is below a certain amount e.g. 5 EUR in Finland.

You can usually look up the TARIC codes (tariff code) on the customs websites of a country or region like European Union or worldwide  (this webpage seems to have an error in the language selection).

Stuff from AUS or US to Europe is considered third-country and depending on the item (fx. CRO's have duty, DSO don't) they will have additional duty added before VAT is added.

Edit: spelling and duty correction
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 08:53:15 pm by Neganur »
 

Online Jeroen3

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2015, 08:57:23 pm »
What I cannot understand is why Dave is having all these problems yet I get packages from Mouser and various Chinese EBay sellers without problems. The last package was an LCD display costing about seventy Euro and I never paid a cent in duty.
Jonestronics is honest on the package with the price. Chinese put on "Gift Electronic 1$" for something 30$.
Or even worse, there was no declarations form AT ALL on the outside of my package.
Jonestronics doesn't use low-priority shipping. If you use UPS or DHL (somewhat faster than bulk) in china, you'll most likely also have customs problems.
Australia isn't china. I would estimate far less packages from Australia than from China. The average value should also be higher from Australia.
Jonestronics also names the company. Indicating something was sold. Otherwise make it name "sample".

If you want to ship to europe, use DHL or UPS shipping. Where the package (should) stay with DHL or UPS the entire trip. They pay customs in advance for the receiver if they do not have an account with them. Normal mail will transfer the package through several companies, making it slow and badly traceable.
(btw: see the app AfterShip)
 

Offline kjsTopic starter

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2015, 09:04:24 pm »
What I cannot understand is why Dave is having all these problems yet I get packages from Mouser and various Chinese EBay sellers without problems. The last package was an LCD display costing about seventy Euro and I never paid a cent in duty.
Mouser and Digikey do all the import stuff for you and pay the taxes and duty. They even have European offices even though the stuff usually ships from the US. That's why you never have issues with them. The Chinese sellers usually declare the stuff as gift and at a very low value. I have seen several of them been caught and returned but at the volume which comes in they can't catch them all.

If you want to ship to europe, use DHL or UPS shipping. Where the package (should) stay with DHL or UPS the entire trip. They pay customs in advance for the receiver if they do not have an account with them. Normal mail will transfer the package through several companies, making it slow and badly traceable.
(btw: see the app AfterShip)

If you take the UPS or Fedex or DHL prices for shipping it is usually cheaper to buy local and also get some warranty. That makes all the good deals moot unless it's a high price item.

If I buy on alislow or fleabay I expect the goods to take 4-8 weeks until they show up. If I need it faster I bite the bullet and go to a real distributor like Mouser or Digikey.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2015, 09:09:48 pm by kjs »
 

Offline Zucca

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2015, 12:43:23 pm »
I bought a 550€ Logic Analyzer from Australia, shipped with DHL it bounced twice against the German Zoll/Custom (first they don´t know what a logic analyzer is, second they asked questions about the sender), now it will arrive soon.

My guess I will pay about 200€ on custom theater. Keep you posted. I paid 143€ on custom.

BTW Germans loves rules and following them (with such a passion it amaze me every time), the rest simply doesn't matter for them. I have some issues to live in this country: just got 100€ fine and 1 point on my driver license because I slowly cross the red light with my bicycle. I get a fine form the German police once every year at least, it is part of the system and is nothing I can do to avoid it.

And yes at the end I love to live in Germany, everything is so efficient and work so well (compare to other country I was). Breathtaking.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 01:49:32 pm by zucca »
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2015, 12:52:55 pm »
But only Germany appears to have problems.

Correct, no other country has this issue.
 

Offline janoc

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2015, 01:39:52 pm »
(In addition, in certain states like France, for example, they can also exhibit local selectivity on implementation by pronouncing "Bof".)

 :-+  :-DD

I would say that the problems in Germany are more of a local nature - the Zollamt is certainly not equipped to check whether or not the device is EMC compliant or not. They only check the paperwork acompanying the package - what is the thing (=which part of the tax/custom code applies), its value (=how much is the VAT and customs fee). If it is electronic, does it have the right signs/stickers attached (CE, ROHS, recycling signs)? If it doesn't, they hold it and/or you have to pay some default fee - which could be calculated from an arbitrary administratively set amount, like 300 euro.

The problem is the rather anal German implementation of the ROHS/CE directives and their penchant for "Ordnung" - you could mail even a smelly excrement in a box, but the papers need to be in order. Ordnung muss sein!

I didn't have any issues importing stuff from China and other places to neither Switzerland, Denmark or France, with the exception of the customs and VAT fees here and there. Which is to be expected, but only Switzerland levied these systematically - in Denmark I was almost never asked to pay anything and in France it is really rare for small items. The only exception is if it is not sent by regular post but by UPS, Fedex, DHL or some such - they will always declare the goods for you and will always collect the fees + their own processing fee.

I know that Slovakia will hold the package on arrival until you pay the VAT + customs (if applicable, I think packages under 200 euro declared value are exempt), but I have never heard about them checking for ROHS or CE marks, unless it is some form of mass goods import (like a palette of Microcurrents).

So make sure that you have the customs declaration attached, the content is declared correctly along with the price of the goods (excluding the shipping, customs fees are calculated from the value of the goods, not the cost of sending it) and that you put the CE and ROHS marks on the box. Both you can self declare, but considering the shipment is from overseas where the EU directive doesn't apply, nobody would check your papers - our market is full of USB phone chargers without CE or with fake/untested CE, for example.

One alternative is to sell the item as a kit of parts, then the entire CE and recycling mess doesn't apply, only ROHS.

Another one is to find a reseller in Europe and let them handle the issue. Adafruit and Sparkfun do that, for example. It is a win-win situation - the manufacturer/vendor doesn't need to bother with the local formalities, the customers get to pay only local shipping fees instead of potentially exorbitant overseas ones and the package arrives (usually) a lot faster.

« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 01:43:59 pm by janoc »
 


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