Author Topic: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries  (Read 24142 times)

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Offline janoc

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2015, 01:54:13 pm »
Mouser and Digikey do all the import stuff for you and pay the taxes and duty. They even have European offices even though the stuff usually ships from the US. That's why you never have issues with them.

That's not completely true. Digikey will not pay the taxes and duty, that is left to you, the recipient. They just send it from their US warehouse in a "hail Mary" style, letting you sort out any local messes. What they do right is that they declare the goods properly and are likely well known/registered with the customs, so you are unlikely to have issues. However, should anything crop up, good luck.

Digikey's "office" in France is pretty much only a phone/fax line and the French mutation of the website. All business is done directly from the US.
 

Online wraper

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2015, 02:28:29 pm »
If you want to ship to europe, use DHL or UPS shipping. Where the package (should) stay with DHL or UPS the entire trip. They pay customs in advance for the receiver if they do not have an account with them. Normal mail will transfer the package through several companies, making it slow and badly traceable.
And make this a huge pain in the ass to your customer. If it is send by Post/EMS, I will need just to pay the duties in the post office/ to the delivery man, that's all. If DHL/UPS, I will need to gather a shitload of papers and make not so short trip to the customs (a bit outside the city). Wait in a queue for an hour, talk with them another 30 minutes and if I got lucky I pay the duties by credit card, cash not accepted. Then I need to send a scan to the DHL/UPS and wait for next day delivery or visit their office personally and wait another 40 minutes until they will find my package. Of course DHL/UPS can offer a clearance too. You just need to pay about 30 EUR to them, provide even bigger pile of papers, waste a few days in total in this process and you will get the package.
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2015, 02:51:41 pm »
I would say that the problems in Germany are more of a local nature - the Zollamt is certainly not equipped to check whether or not the device is EMC compliant or not. They only check the paperwork acompanying the package - what is the thing (=which part of the tax/custom code applies), its value (=how much is the VAT and customs fee). If it is electronic, does it have the right signs/stickers attached (CE, ROHS, recycling signs)? If it doesn't, they hold it and/or you have to pay some default fee - which could be calculated from an arbitrary administratively set amount, like 300 euro.

No, they can not test it but what they do instead, they send it to one of there agencies to test and then you get a letter if you are allowed to pick it up or not.
It is just a hassle that nobody needs.
I have lived in many countries, but Germany must be the toughest when it comes to importing things.

Some China based companies got smarter and have a european shipping center in the UK.
So, lately when I order something from China, it was first shipped to the UK and then as a EU package from the UK to Germany.
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Offline janoc

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2015, 08:25:55 pm »
No, they can not test it but what they do instead, they send it to one of there agencies to test and then you get a letter if you are allowed to pick it up or not.

Do they really do that? The testing I mean. That would cost an enormous amount of money - a single run of just EMC compliance testing (part of CE mark) is in thousands of euro - which nobody would ever pay for individual, non-business imports.

That's why I am suspecting more that they just check papers (rigorously).

 

Offline janoc

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2015, 08:40:30 pm »
If you want to ship to europe, use DHL or UPS shipping. Where the package (should) stay with DHL or UPS the entire trip. They pay customs in advance for the receiver if they do not have an account with them. Normal mail will transfer the package through several companies, making it slow and badly traceable.
And make this a huge pain in the ass to your customer. If it is send by Post/EMS, I will need just to pay the duties in the post office/ to the delivery man, that's all. If DHL/UPS, I will need to gather a shitload of papers and make not so short trip to the customs (a bit outside the city). Wait in a queue for an hour, talk with them another 30 minutes and if I got lucky I pay the duties by credit card, cash not accepted. Then I need to send a scan to the DHL/UPS and wait for next day delivery or visit their office personally and wait another 40 minutes until they will find my package. Of course DHL/UPS can offer a clearance too. You just need to pay about 30 EUR to them, provide even bigger pile of papers, waste a few days in total in this process and you will get the package.

Oh yeah - that is a sure fire way to ensure I am not going to order from such company. DHL/UPS in Europe is an enormous PITA. Apart from all the paperwork and the outrageous processing fees they charge for handling the customs and tax formalities, they are a huge problem when it comes to delivery to non-business premises.

Basically, if you are at work and the package is addressed to your home, the DHL/UPS/Fedex guy shows up and rings at your door at some random time between about 9AM to 5PM and then leaves. Without leaving a note (unlike normal mailman), they won't call you (a DHL man once told me that the driver has a phone but that they are explicitly forbidden to call clients!) and good luck chasing the package up when you don't even know that there was a delivery attempt. And after 3 delivery attempts (that you have no clue about if you don't have a tracking number) the package is returned back to the sender. Yay ... (had that happen).

I had also one (quite valuable) package being left with a neighbor without telling anyone or leaving a note, I had a package "delivered" to a depot 30km away, when asked WTF is that supposed to be, I was told I can just go and pick it up ... etc. 

Here in France they also outsource to subcontractors (who outsource to their subcontractors, etc.) - if a package goes missing or is misdelivered, good luck finding it in that chain. Had this happen with DHL (or UPS?) once and never more - they were extremely unhelpful, to put it politely. Basically, in their system the package was indicated as delivered and they were washing their hands over it - it wasn't their problem anymore. An overnight shipping took almost two weeks of phone calls to various delivery companies to track down, prying various internal tracking numbers from one in order to give to the next one in the chain. The best part was when one of them told me that they don't work with the original shipper, because it is their competitor (!) - despite handling their packages through a middleman ...

If you must ship by these companies, at least do say so explicitly - then I will have the package sent to my workplace, if possible. Using these companies to deliver to private residences is just a nightmare.

« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 08:53:08 pm by janoc »
 

Online wraper

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2015, 08:21:40 pm »
Basically, if you are at work and the package is addressed to your home, the DHL/UPS/Fedex guy shows up and rings at your door at some random time between about 9AM to 5PM and then leaves. Without leaving a note (unlike normal mailman), they won't call you (a DHL man once told me that the driver has a phone but that they are explicitly forbidden to call clients!) and good luck chasing the package up when you don't even know that there was a delivery attempt. And after 3 delivery attempts (that you have no clue about if you don't have a tracking number) the package is returned back to the sender. Yay ... (had that happen).
Exactly the opposite here, they even won't try to deliver to private address without calling you. So if there is no phone number on the package, they won't deliver unless you call them yourself (if you know the tracking number)  :-DD.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2015, 08:36:22 pm »
Mouser and Digikey do all the import stuff for you and pay the taxes and duty. They even have European offices even though the stuff usually ships from the US. That's why you never have issues with them.

That's not completely true. Digikey will not pay the taxes and duty, that is left to you, the recipient. They just send it from their US warehouse in a "hail Mary" style, letting you sort out any local messes. What they do right is that they declare the goods properly and are likely well known/registered with the customs, so you are unlikely to have issues. However, should anything crop up, good luck.

Digikey's "office" in France is pretty much only a phone/fax line and the French mutation of the website. All business is done directly from the US.
For the UK, Digikey do collect taxes at the time of order- this has been the case for the last couple of years or so.
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2015, 08:39:15 pm »
As regards CE mark, Dave could honestly apply it as there is zero chance of emissions from this product. Could be immunity issues but nobody is going to care about that.
AFIK there is no requirement for Rohs marking - I think it now comes under CE marking anyway.

The answer is probably to ship to Germany via another EU country
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2015, 08:49:38 pm »
For the UK, Digikey do collect taxes at the time of order- this has been the case for the last couple of years or so.
If I order from Digikey or Mouser and it is shipped by Fedex or DHL express, the shipping company does the filing of the import papers and collects the duty and taxes. I usually get a separate invoice from the shipping company a few days later and just pay them.

Lately ebay USA has changed and during the checkout and payment to a seller, the import duty and VAT is calculated automatically and added to the payment. Then the US seller is getting a shipping address in New York and from there it is shipped to a central location in Germany. Then in Germany it is delivered with a local delivery company. Really convenient and no hassle and total delivery time is even faster. It seems like ebay is adapting to the problems with the German customs.

 
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Offline janoc

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2015, 09:45:59 pm »
For the UK, Digikey do collect taxes at the time of order- this has been the case for the last couple of years or so.

I think the reason is that they actually have some business in UK, so they have to collect VAT. In France they leave it to the recipient to pay at the post office/to the delivery man/by separate invoice, because they ship everything from the US (I was asked to fill some ITAR forms for 2 PIC18Fs!!!). In Denmark nobody bothered ...

If I order from Digikey or Mouser and it is shipped by Fedex or DHL express, the shipping company does the filing of the import papers and collects the duty and taxes. I usually get a separate invoice from the shipping company a few days later and just pay them.

Yep, exactly the same to France. You forgot to mention that Fedex/DHL/UPS actually invoice you their processing fee for doing the customs too (normally that should be Digikey's/Mouser's duty to declare it). So in the end it can be pretty expensive.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2015, 09:52:09 pm by janoc »
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2015, 10:19:03 pm »
Yep, exactly the same to France. You forgot to mention that Fedex/DHL/UPS actually invoice you their processing fee for doing the customs too (normally that should be Digikey's/Mouser's duty to declare it). So in the end it can be pretty expensive.
Yes, that is true but I rather pay the fee than stay in line at the customs office.
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Offline mcinque

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2015, 07:51:55 am »
Could be immunity issues but nobody is going to care about that.
Very interesting for me, do you have any experience or example about this?
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2015, 08:36:53 am »
For the UK, Digikey do collect taxes at the time of order- this has been the case for the last couple of years or so.

I think the reason is that they actually have some business in UK, so they have to collect VAT. In France they leave it to the recipient to pay at the post office/to the delivery man/by separate invoice,
I don't think they have any UK presence- I have no doubt that they changed due to complaints from customers - the old system where UPS collected the VAT was a major headache for some companies - Unless you had a UPS deferment account, the UPS guy had to have a cheque or card on delivery, something the avarage "goods-in" dept was not set up to do.
With a UPS account it happens automatically & UPS bills monthly, but even that needs more work for the bean-counting dept.
It gets even worse when shipping to different sites- e.g. a customer of min ordered some bits to be sent to me, and as mine was the delivery address the VAT got charged to my UPS account. 
Quote
because they ship everything from the US (I was asked to fill some ITAR forms for 2 PIC18Fs!!!).
I have no problem with that - given the existence of stupid US rules, it is much better for them to collect info just in case it's needed, to avoid delays. Mouser's method of holding the order to get info means 1-2 days' delay to an order.
Quote

Yep, exactly the same to France. You forgot to mention that Fedex/DHL/UPS actually invoice you their processing fee for doing the customs too (normally that should be Digikey's/Mouser's duty to declare it). So in the end it can be pretty expensive.

That was never the case for the UK, where the UPS fee was paid by Digikey. The only oddity was that as well as VAT on the goods, you paid VAT in the notional value of the "free" delivery.
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Offline hammy

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2015, 09:00:10 am »
As an amateur radio operator we have a similar problem here in germany. Due our license we are allowed to build, use and buy/sell equipment without the CE sign. With our ham license we had proven that we know what we do.
BUT if we order stuff from outside germany and it wants to cross the border without a CE sign, the customs stops it. And you get a letter afterwards about it. No chance to drive there and to show them the license. They pretend to know what our license imply, they don't care, they don't want extra paperwork.  :--
 

Offline mcinque

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2015, 09:49:30 am »
With our ham license we had proven that we know what we do.
I don't know your HAM licensing process, but I know HAMs here that knows only what is a bulb lamp and a battery (you can guess what they know about designing electronics).

Our HAM licensing is only written quiz based (no more voice interview), and requires only 60% correct responses to pass; so by reading a book with all the quizzes and the responses, with a little of luck you can get the 10% needed more than the 50% casual probability.
 

Offline hammy

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2015, 10:51:11 am »
... but I know HAMs here that knows only what is a bulb lamp and a battery (you can guess what they know about designing electronics).

We have such HAMs too.  ;)

This CE thing is based on the fact that a HAM is allowed to build his own TRX (and related stuff). The right to transmit and the right to build all amateur radio related devices has the result that we are also allowed to buy, own and use stuff without CE. We can use it, we can improve it ... based on the fact that we should know what we do.

In our country the rules say:
"Amateurfunk ist Experimental Funkdienst der von Funkamateuren untereinander zu experimentellen und wissenschaftlichen Studien genutzt wird."
"Amateur radio is an experimental radio service for experimental and scientific studies between amateur radio operators."

Designing electronics, without CE, for an other market than amateur radio, with a commercial intention, is not allowed.
But buying a uCurrent, for amateur radio measurements, is absolutely legal even without a CE sign!

If you are not an HAM, or a company, the law "protects you". This means you cannot buy something without a CE sign.

There are a lot of rules in germany. Some are good, some are bad, some are annoying ... and some are ignored.

Our HAM licensing is only written quiz based (no more voice interview), and requires only 60% correct responses to pass; so by reading a book with all the quizzes and the responses, with a little of luck you can get the 10% needed more than the 50% casual probability.

Quite similar. Three multiple choice tests with 75% correct answers. But some people just memorize the correct answers without the theory behind it. For the smaller license, "Klasse E", you have to learn ~800 questions, for the other "Klasse A" license we talk about ~1500 questions. During the test you have to answer ~100 questions (Class E) and ~120 questions (Class A).

Cheers
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Offline dannyf

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2015, 10:54:40 am »
Isn't it nice living in Europe?

We don't have that problem in the 3rd world country that I live in.
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Offline 0xdeadbeef

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2015, 11:58:56 am »
I doubt that buying stuff without a CE sign is illegal, it's just that selling certain products without a CE sign in the EU is forbidden.
So of course every European citizen is allowed to buy stuff without a CE sign, it's just that nobody is allowed to freely sell products in the EU without the CE sign (or to be more exact: without their conformity to EU directives being checked and proven). So in the end, it doesn't really matter if you're a HAM or electrical engineer or whatever.

This being said, not everything needs the CE sign. E.g. basic components (like diodes) don't need it. The question is if a product  fits into a certain group of product for which a directive exist. E.g. there is a regulation for toys, but for electronic stuff, mainly the EMC regulation is important. I would assume you could argue that something as low power as the uCurrent is not able to create any interferences on a scale that would make the EMC directive relevant. Then again, I'm not a lawyer.
It's like with customs: you can discuss for weeks which product group a certain thing is and two customs officers will come up with three different possibilities.
So the only safe way to not get into trouble is to get a CE sign and that's why a CE sign is on every crap even though it might not be needed.
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2015, 12:17:43 pm »
I would assume you could argue that something as low power as the uCurrent is not able to create any interferences on a scale that would make the EMC directive relevant.
The uCurrent can be self-certified for EMC emissions  as it is obviously compliant with emissions standards by the nature of its design. There would be no need for any testing.
Some idiot decided that the EMC directive should also cover immunity, which should just be a product quality issue, however enforcement authorities are going to be far less interested in that for products where there is no potential safety hazard if they fail to work correctly.
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Offline hammy

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2015, 01:12:00 pm »
I doubt that buying stuff without a CE sign is illegal, it's just that selling certain products without a CE sign in the EU is forbidden.

I suppose that is correct. But on the other side shops for amateur radio stuff sell products without CE sign.
Wimo is selling the X1M trx as a "kit" -> https://www.wimo.com/x1m_qrp_transceiver_e.html. With the note "The kit has no CE mark after completion. The finished device may therefore be operated only by licensed radio amateurs."

So, maybe you are allowed to buy complex devices without CE sign, but you are not allowed to turn it on? But also the datasheet of an 1N4148 diode says "Meet all present and future national and international statutory requirements.". There is clearly something you have to fulfil bevore you are allowed to sell your diode to the market.
I don't know, I suppose the truth is somewhere in the middle of all these laws and rules ...  :-//

Anyway. The uCurrent does not have a CE sign and therefore Dave can not send it to us, because our customs are nitpicky.

@dannyf: You are right, some countries overregulate everything.  :palm:
« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 01:23:44 pm by hammy »
 

Offline MiataMuc

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #45 on: April 11, 2015, 09:39:28 pm »
well, as far as I know, it is quite simple: if it is only parts, or a kit, it does not need any CE or other declarations. I always buy kits from chinese sellers, never things that are assembled. Never had any problem at customs office; only problem is insufficient declaration of price - I have to mail in the Paypal-Invoice to the customs office. On the other hand - it it was really important to me, I would just get a "Gewerbeschein" (found a company) - then you are allowed to import samples.
 

Offline 0xdeadbeef

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #46 on: April 11, 2015, 11:07:13 pm »
I fear that is not completely true. "Basic components" don't need a CE mark. Stuff like resistors diodes. A socket/outlet, lightswitch, motor, transformer or power supply needs a CE mark.
As far as I understand. the rule is like something this
- if the characteristics of the device depend on how the component is used, the component doesn't need a CE mark
- if the safety of the component can be judged independently of the device it's used it, it needs a CE mark
I also fear that selling a kit doesn't really solve the CE problem. I mean it's likely that you can convince a customs officers that a kit doesn't need a CE mark, but I guess from a strictly legal point of view, it doesn't really matter if the device needs to be assembled or not. However I understand that at least the e-waste directive can't be applied to kits.

As usual, the idea of the CE mark was well-intentioned. To allow only selling of products that cohere to some directives regarding safety, EMC etc. sounds like good idea.
Then again, all the directives are terribly written and only consider the multi-million company which doesn't care about ten thousand Euro or so for a certification.
There should be clearly defined exceptions for hobbyists, but I fear there aren't.

Besides, Chinese sellers just stick a CE mark on the device and if it explodes, it will be impossible to find out from which backyard workshop it came. So the whole thing became somewhat pointless.
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Offline janoc

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #47 on: April 12, 2015, 02:03:49 pm »
Then again, all the directives are terribly written and only consider the multi-million company which doesn't care about ten thousand Euro or so for a certification.
There should be clearly defined exceptions for hobbyists, but I fear there aren't.

Actually the directive itself is quite clear. The problem are the national implementations - the actual laws you have to follow. Some countries have the penchant for being more "Brussels than Brussels" and introduce things that go beyond and above what is actually demanded by the directive.

BTW, hobbyists don't really need (and are not) to be concerned by these things. If you are not introducing a product into the EU market they don't apply to you - so it is completely fine to use leaded solder or not bother with EMC - nobody cares about what you do at home, as long as other laws are not broken. Who gets bitten are small companies and startups trying to get a new product on the market. That is rather unfortunate.
 

Offline mcinque

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #48 on: April 12, 2015, 03:15:50 pm »
Ok, so by reading some posts, anyone can sell anything regardless of CE compliance, just by selling it as a kit (even an "idiot proof kit", like a complex board to be finished with only one or three components still to be soldered).

If this would be true, even if you sell something that once assembled will crush every tv or radio signal in your neighborhood due to its emissions, you would get zero troubles from the autority, since you sell it as a kit.

I strongly don't think so. Kits are not a solution against CE compliance.

When you sell a "final" product, so a device that once built can work without the need of other than a power source, you are selling an apparatus, that must be CE.

If you sell a part, something that once assembled it's not for a final use, but it's only something that will be incorporated in a device, THAT's the part that doesn't need any CE. It's the final apparatus that must be compliant, and of course only if you're going to sell it.

As a crude example, no one can be sued because is selling you potassium nitrate. You can use it in many ways. This can be identified as a harmless part.
It will be more different if he sells you potassium nitrate together with a pipe, two caps, sugar and coal, with instructions on how to assemble them. This is a no more a harmless part, but an explosive device.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2015, 04:18:15 pm by mcinque »
 

Online Jeroen3

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Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #49 on: April 13, 2015, 06:41:20 am »
You know CE is self-certification?
There is no need for expensive certification tests by some third party.
 


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