Author Topic: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries  (Read 24138 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mcinque

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1131
  • Country: it
  • I know that I know nothing
Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #50 on: April 13, 2015, 07:51:35 am »
You know that if you declare your product compliant and then it's not, you will be sued for fraud?
 

Offline Neganur

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1173
  • Country: fi
Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #51 on: April 13, 2015, 08:31:53 am »
only if something happens and someone actually sues you.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 14117
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #52 on: April 13, 2015, 08:34:19 am »
You know that if you declare your product compliant and then it's not, you will be sued for fraud?
No you won't.
You won't be sued, and it's not fraud.
There is specific legislation around CE marking, however serious penalties only apply where declarations have been intentionally falsified.
There is also often a huge grey area over deciding which  directives & standards apply, especially for niche or unusual products.
Apart from in Germany, enforcement authorities are far too busy (and underfunded) dealing with stuff like fake cigarettes, dangerous toys and things that are actively dangerous to get involved.
 At least in the UK, the system is complaint based, so things are not going to be randomly checked.
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline mcinque

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1131
  • Country: it
  • I know that I know nothing
Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #53 on: April 13, 2015, 11:50:23 am »
There is specific legislation around CE marking, however serious penalties only apply where declarations have been intentionally falsified.
You have indeed a ton of experience so your statement is probably much, much more solid than mine.

But legally talking what's the difference between a CE declaration that is intentionally falsified (i.e. you know that the product isn't compliant and you declare is as compliant) and a CE declaration of a product that you are only confident to be compliant (but that wasn't tested, so anyone can not be sure about its compliance)?

Quote
and it's not fraud.
The issue it's that a CE declaration of conformity it's a legally signed document, so if you state that a product is compliant to some directives and that product it's not, you are signing a false document.

Here this is considered fraud, and if you do this kind of things you must pay a fine (from 5k to 20k euros). You will then be obliged to follow the certification process. And if your product is considered unsafe, you must retire it from the market and obtain the compliance before selling it again.

Quote
Apart from in Germany, enforcement authorities are far too busy (and underfunded) dealing with stuff like fake cigarettes, dangerous toys and things that are actively dangerous to get involved.
Oh, indeed. But what about jealous competitors doing some complaints only to get you in troubles?

Quote
At least in the UK, the system is complaint based, so things are not going to be randomly checked.
I think it's the same in every EU state. The issue is that almost any end-user electronic product must have a CE declaration to enter/move in EU, so you must attach that document to the product.

EDIT: We all knows that Dave knows exactly how to build a compliant device, so he can declare its conformity without any worries, this is for sure. The point is that IMO, he must prepare a proper CE declaration and attach it to the uCurrent to solve any customs issue.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 11:59:54 am by mcinque »
 

Offline janoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3925
  • Country: de
Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #54 on: April 13, 2015, 07:20:23 pm »
You know CE is self-certification?
There is no need for expensive certification tests by some third party.

Until your product gets complained about by some irate customer or competitor. Then you will have a problem and you better have the test results on file.

Of course, this is not something enforceable for products coming from outside of EU, with the manufacturer being outside of the jurisdiction. At worst the product could be banned from the market if found dangerous or causing interference.

« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 07:22:10 pm by janoc »
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 14117
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #55 on: April 13, 2015, 07:46:54 pm »

But legally talking what's the difference between a CE declaration that is intentionally falsified (i.e. you know that the product isn't compliant and you declare is as compliant) and a CE declaration of a product that you are only confident to be compliant (but that wasn't tested, so anyone can not be sure about its compliance)?
AIUI, the penalties can be significantly different, and jail time is only a possibility for the former.

Quote
Quote
and it's not fraud.
The issue it's that a CE declaration of conformity it's a legally signed document, so if you state that a product is compliant to some directives and that product it's not, you are signing a false document.
The point is there is specific legislation regarding CE marking, so you would be charged under that, not general fraud laws.

Quote
Quote
Apart from in Germany, enforcement authorities are far too busy (and underfunded) dealing with stuff like fake cigarettes, dangerous toys and things that are actively dangerous to get involved.
Oh, indeed. But what about jealous competitors doing some complaints only to get you in troubles?
This is often quoted but I don't know if it has ever actually happened. In the UK at least, it is enforced by Trading Standards, who usually have better things to do than listen to third-party complaints.
Quote
EDIT: We all knows that Dave knows exactly how to build a compliant device, so he can declare its conformity without any worries, this is for sure. The point is that IMO, he must prepare a proper CE declaration and attach it to the uCurrent to solve any customs issue.
I believe the only thing that has to be attatched is the CE mark - I don't recall what the situation is re. declaration of conformity, especially as user manuals tend to be online nowadays.
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline Len

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 553
  • Country: ca
Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #56 on: April 13, 2015, 08:14:54 pm »
I believe the only thing that has to be attatched is the CE mark - I don't recall what the situation is re. declaration of conformity, especially as user manuals tend to be online nowadays.
My recently-purchased laptop included a printed statement of CE conformity which says that the full declaration is on the web (with the rest of the manuals). I suppose they wouldn't have bothered printing that if it wasn't required.

(And I'm not even in the EU.)
DIY Eurorack Synth: https://lenp.net/synth/
 

Offline Tandy

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 372
  • Country: gb
  • Darren Grant from Tandy, UK.
    • Tandy
Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #57 on: April 13, 2015, 09:50:58 pm »
To answer most of the points raised.

RoHS marking is not required, in fact it is prohibited, as RoHS conformity is now REQUIRED for an item to be marked CE. The reason that RoHS marking is prohibited is that because CE marking includes RoHS compliance, adding a RoHS logo to a product implies that other products are not compliant when if they carry the CE mark they are by default.

Any product placed on the market or imported that is covered by a CE directive must carry the CE mark. Finished electronic goods must conform to the EMC directive. Electronic components and parts that are used by a professional in the building of equipment are exempt. A graphics card to be fitted into a PC would need to be CE EMC compliant as it is to be installed in to a computer by the end user. A servo board used by an engineer to build a device is exempt as it is a requirement that if the manufactured equipment is placed on the market that the end product will be certified.

Every EU country should be checking for CE compliance, in theory each product should include a declaration. In practice the authorities are primarily going to go after the large imports. A ship with 20 containers of mp3 players is far easier to check than 20,000 individual packages in the postal system. Different countries within the EU are different in how rigorously they apply the rules.

Within the EU goods can travel freely as long as they are CE marked.

When parcels are sent from outside the EU they should have a value and a tariff code. In the UK if the package is under £15 there will be nothing to pay. If the package is a gift valued under £36 there will be no charges. Marking a package as a gift is not a guarantee that no charges will be made, customs must be satisfied that it is a gift or they may levy a charge. Any package over £135 value, duty will be charged if the product is subject to duty. If the tariff code is not provided the officers will make their best guess as to what tariff code should be applied and therefore what duty.

When the package arrives any tax and duty will be charged to you plus any fees added by the delivery agent. This is quite costly £8 for RoyalMail in the UK, even if it is just £1 tax that needs to be collected. To avoid this issue some senders send the parcel with tax pre-paid. This is how the likes of Mouser do it, VAT is applied to your order and UPS deliver the package having the tax already paid so no fees.
For more info on Tandy try these links Tandy History EEVBlog Thread & Official Tandy Website
 

Offline schopi68

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 123
  • Country: de
    • My stuff page
Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #58 on: July 01, 2015, 01:18:19 pm »
Please don't forget these two tings:

to be conform with the CE regularities the item must have a user manual in the language of the country the product will be used.
https://cemarking.net/user-manual-part-ce-marking/

And.. don't forget the "Elektrogesetz". The law that regulates the waste management in Germany (there are similar laws in many other european countrys, but the one in germany is the worst).
For Europe: http://ec.europa.eu/environment/waste/weee/index_en.htm
Germany: http://www.elektrogesetz.com/elektrog.shtml

According to this law every person that brings a electronic device to the customer (the manufacturer or the importing person if not already done by the manufacturer) has to register every single device type (and even modules to be inserted in other devices) by the electronic-waste management foundation... and has to pay for it.

The devices are to be registered by the national register "stiftung ear" https://www.stiftung-ear.de/en/

(WEEE - on almost every european device you will find the weee sign and it's number).  In reality CE as a self declaration can be done for many devices with only a few hours of work as a cost. But registering any paying for the weee will cost a minimum of ca 300-500€ per year - even when you are not selling at least one item.

The introduction of this law killed many small electronic-companies here in germany. At least it is the main reason why i am still not selling my OCXO-Assembly for the HP 5316B Frequency Counter. http://salmanassar.c-ellwart.de/hp5316b/ For a more or less private person it does not make any sense to pay such a lot of money for items you may sell only a few times per year.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2015, 08:11:46 am by schopi68 »
 

Offline ed!th

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 1
  • Country: de
Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #59 on: February 12, 2022, 09:31:08 am »
And let's add to the list the German Packaging Act: https://www.lizenzero.de/en/blog/german-packaging-act-in-the-uk-obligations-when-shipping-to-germany/ The law also concerns the waste management but the one of packaging material. It is necessary to register in a dual system and license the packaging material

You know that if you declare your product compliant and then it's not, you will be sued for fraud?
No you won't.
You won't be sued, and it's not fraud.
There is specific legislation around CE marking, however serious penalties only apply where declarations have been intentionally falsified.
There is also often a huge grey area over deciding which  directives & standards apply, especially for niche or unusual products.
Apart from in Germany, enforcement authorities are far too busy (and underfunded) dealing with stuff like fake cigarettes, dangerous toys and things that are actively dangerous to get involved.
 At least in the UK, the system is complaint based, so things are not going to be randomly checked.

In case of the Packaging Act I can guarantee that it can be checked, I know many people having paid huge fees because of it. So, take care!
 

Offline m98

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 634
  • Country: de
Re: uCurrent shipment issues to European countries
« Reply #60 on: February 12, 2022, 01:48:58 pm »
According to this law every person that brings a electronic device to the customer (the manufacturer or the importing person if not already done by the manufacturer) has to register every single device type (and even modules to be inserted in other devices) by the electronic-waste management foundation... and has to pay for it.

The devices are to be registered by the national register "stiftung ear" https://www.stiftung-ear.de/en/

This only applies if you are selling electronics in Germany, not if you import electronics. As long as you just use it yourself, be it as a private consumer or as a company, it's fine. Same for the packaging act, EU law doesn't apply outside the EU, unless the third country voluntarily complies, as part of a trade deal, for example.
If someone in Germany orders something from Dave, the sale happens in Australia under Australian law. All legal requirements in Australia for shipping electronics into the EU market or to Germany (if there where any) would still apply.
Long story short, do a CE self-certification (for which you do need to compile the technical documentation), slap a CE-sticker on the case, put a crappy German Google Translate version of the manual and declaration of conformity in the package, and you're good.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf