Author Topic: UK back to "imperial" measurements ?  (Read 15278 times)

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Offline branadic

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Re: UK back to "imperial" measurements ?
« Reply #50 on: May 30, 2022, 08:00:33 pm »


So will there be a similar video soon for UK?

-branadic-
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Online TimFox

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Re: UK back to "imperial" measurements ?
« Reply #51 on: May 30, 2022, 08:07:59 pm »
Re:  Benta

Before 1959, the US legal definition was 1 meter = 39.37 inch (exactly), which is slightly different than the current legal definition (post-1959) that 1 inch = 2.54 cm (exactly).
This makes a difference for legal measurements of land tenure, which just got messed up again recently with the proposed abolition of the "US Survey Foot" that perpetuated the previous definition.
https://www.nist.gov/pml/us-surveyfoot
 

Offline Benta

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Re: UK back to "imperial" measurements ?
« Reply #52 on: May 30, 2022, 08:11:57 pm »
@TimFox:
which proves my point. If there's no common reference, you're deep in manure. Henry Ford and US industry were smarter. Imagine specifying a precision-cut 1/4" milled slot when the supplier doesn't have the same inch size as you.


« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 08:17:48 pm by Benta »
 

Online floobydust

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Re: UK back to "imperial" measurements ?
« Reply #53 on: May 30, 2022, 08:16:59 pm »
I find the US is not metric. Example Bud Industries all dimensions are inches. Cringe. Even though they're made in Asia.
Hammond is a one button click for Imperial or Metric units. What's so hard about that.

So you would rather they change all their drawings, which are now "even" in inches and use US sheet-metal gauges, rather than do the exact conversion (since 1 inch = exactly 25.4 mm) on your calculator?

YES. Enjoy the time wasted working with this drawing and converting to Metric. Bud Industries are a dinosaur, the boxes use Metric fasteners lol.
It also makes hell for distributors/suppliers when you want to select a size on their website - in, mm, oz, ml what a mess.

P.S. - Adam Savage selling measuring stick tatoos for your forearm in: inches, cm, mm.
 

Online TimFox

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Re: UK back to "imperial" measurements ?
« Reply #54 on: May 30, 2022, 08:18:17 pm »
@TimFox:
which nails my point. If there's no common reference, you're deep in manure. Henry Ford and US industry were smarter.

Both the pre-1959 and post-1959 legal specification were a rational ratio between the foot and the meter (only exact in one direction).
Mr Ford was a stickler for precision measurements, and popularized "Jo Blocks" in the US, but the legal definition of the inch is a Federal regulation.
The first definition went back to 1866 as a Federal law.
I haven't looked for verification, but I was told once that the 1959 legal change was made so that the US inch would agree with the UK inch, which at that time was 25.4 mm.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 08:33:34 pm by TimFox »
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: UK back to "imperial" measurements ?
« Reply #55 on: May 30, 2022, 08:31:02 pm »
So will there be a similar video soon for UK?
-branadic-

Much better than a video - the NPL has an open day every year and you can walk around most of the labs where they mess around with this stuff. Well, look real close and have some sciencey bloke (sometimes a blokess) explain it all to you. Fascinating day out if you like that kind of thing (and most of us here would do). From what I recall, it's free too!
 

Offline Benta

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Re: UK back to "imperial" measurements ?
« Reply #56 on: May 30, 2022, 08:41:02 pm »
Mr Ford was a stickler for precision measurements, and popularized "Jo Blocks" in the US, but the legal definition of the inch is a Federal regulation.
First, apologies: I added to my post before your reply, but without changing the sense of it.

Calling Henry Ford "a stickler for precision" is a bit far-fetched. Rather, he was a pioneer in mass-production, and realized that all parts delivered to a production line need to be pretty much 100% identical for maximum assembly efficiency.
Now, Dearborn wasn't one big plant, but several spread out over the area, each producing different parts for the car. THAT was his his rationale for buying C.E.J. All plants needed the same basic inch for their production. Pistons that wouldn't fit the engine block would be a disaster (we're talking a few 1/100 mm here).
At the same time, other companies would deliver parts to the assembly line. They were forced to use the 25.4 mm inch as well, otherwise it wouldn't work
And so on.
The war effort 1941...45 would have been impossible without a common inch.
That it was ratified as late as 1959 is pretty unimportant IMO.

PS: the UK/US inch definitions from 1910 are based on the meter (rether, mm).


« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 08:49:08 pm by Benta »
 

Offline eugene

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Re: UK back to "imperial" measurements ?
« Reply #57 on: May 30, 2022, 08:52:07 pm »
Which is what has me a little confused (but not enough to actually study the matter; I have more important things to think about.)

What does the government have to do with any of it? Unless there are strict regulations, the people are going to use whatever units they want, or whatever units their customers want, or whatever is convenient given the situation. The government of the UK, like the government of the US, is kidding themselves (and wasting their time) if they think they have anything significant to say about it.

Article 1, Section 8 of the US Constitution states that Congress has the power to "fix the Standard of Weights and Measures".
In current US practice, the merchant and purchaser can measure substances in either conventional or metric units, but the statutes govern the definition of the kg and lb av to be used.
Prior to the Revolution, individual States had their own units and currencies.
More than you want to know:  https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GOVPUB-C13-691a9b38e29a85d0925f4db586b60735/pdf/GOVPUB-C13-691a9b38e29a85d0925f4db586b60735.pdf


I interpret that to be just a standardization of some units. In other words, if I sell a box of something that says "net weight 1 lb" on it, then it needs to agree with what they call a pound. It doesn't require that I use pounds or kilograms or any other particular unit of measure.

They might actually believe that they can dictate which units I use and which I don't, but the truth on the street is that it doesn't work that way.
90% of quoted statistics are fictional
 

Online TimFox

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Re: UK back to "imperial" measurements ?
« Reply #58 on: May 30, 2022, 08:53:55 pm »
Here is an interesting typescript (now in the John Crerar Library at the University of Chicago) with Ford's history of measurements up to 1934 ("Century of Progress" world's fair in Chicago), including the Johansson acquisition.
It brags about measurement precision down to low millionths of an inch.
It mentions that copies of the British Imperial Yard were sent to the US in 1856;  later, Congress went metric in 1866.  Interestingly, it doesn't mention the calibration factor between inches and meters.
https://www.lib.uchicago.edu/ead/pdf/century0840.pdf
 
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Online TimFox

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Re: UK back to "imperial" measurements ?
« Reply #59 on: May 30, 2022, 09:00:48 pm »
Which is what has me a little confused (but not enough to actually study the matter; I have more important things to think about.)

What does the government have to do with any of it? Unless there are strict regulations, the people are going to use whatever units they want, or whatever units their customers want, or whatever is convenient given the situation. The government of the UK, like the government of the US, is kidding themselves (and wasting their time) if they think they have anything significant to say about it.

Article 1, Section 8 of the US Constitution states that Congress has the power to "fix the Standard of Weights and Measures".
In current US practice, the merchant and purchaser can measure substances in either conventional or metric units, but the statutes govern the definition of the kg and lb av to be used.
Prior to the Revolution, individual States had their own units and currencies.
More than you want to know:  https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GOVPUB-C13-691a9b38e29a85d0925f4db586b60735/pdf/GOVPUB-C13-691a9b38e29a85d0925f4db586b60735.pdf


I interpret that to be just a standardization of some units. In other words, if I sell a box of something that says "net weight 1 lb" on it, then it needs to agree with what they call a pound. It doesn't require that I use pounds or kilograms or any other particular unit of measure.

They might actually believe that they can dictate which units I use and which I don't, but the truth on the street is that it doesn't work that way.

The US laws are explicit:  see page 3 of this NIST summary  https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/SpecialPublications/NIST.SP.1020.pdf
The full regulations can be found in
Uniform Packaging and Labeling Regulation (UPLR) in National Institute of Standards
and Technology Handbook 130, “Uniform Laws and Regulation in the Areas of Legal Metrology and Fuel Quality.”

"Units of the International System of Units (SI) (metric system) and U.S. Customary Units are acceptable for use
in the quantity declaration. The declaration of quantity on most packages are subject to FTC and FDA regulations
and shall include both SI and U.S. customary units. Packaged goods subject only to State regulation under the
UPLR may be labeled with only SI units (metric) in the quantity declaration. When both SI and U.S. customary
units appear on a package either unit of measurement may appear first (see Exemption 11.33 “U.S. Customary
Units Consumer Commodities” in the UPLR)."

This applies to labels on packages.  There are also regulations on type faces, etc. in the complete document.

Correction to my posts above:  the legal term is "customary units", not "conventional units".  Sorry.
 

Offline Benta

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Re: UK back to "imperial" measurements ?
« Reply #60 on: May 30, 2022, 09:09:18 pm »
It brags about measurement precision down to low millionths of an inch.

Yes. Those would be the reference Jo Blocks kept in a temperature-controlled safe.
The calibration blocks would be good to 1/1000 mm, the production blocks at around 5/1000 mm.
Normal practice.
 

Online TimFox

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Re: UK back to "imperial" measurements ?
« Reply #61 on: May 30, 2022, 09:13:01 pm »
A cool thing about high-quality "Jo Blocks" (and competitors' such as Starrett and Mitutoyo) is how they "wring" when you place the broad faces against each other, due to the flatness and other properties of the blocks beyond their calibration accuracy.  It can be hard to pull them apart if mated properly.
The wikipedia article  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauge_block  discusses how to wring them properly.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: UK back to "imperial" measurements ?
« Reply #62 on: May 30, 2022, 10:45:33 pm »
@TimFox:
which proves my point. If there's no common reference, you're deep in manure. Henry Ford and US industry were smarter. Imagine specifying a precision-cut 1/4" milled slot when the supplier doesn't have the same inch size as you.
And that isn't far fetched. Gas piping thread sizes in inches are referenced to 1 inch being about 33.7mm. Try measuring that with a caliper that has 1" = 25.4mm.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online TimFox

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Re: UK back to "imperial" measurements ?
« Reply #63 on: May 30, 2022, 10:54:47 pm »
@TimFox:
which proves my point. If there's no common reference, you're deep in manure. Henry Ford and US industry were smarter. Imagine specifying a precision-cut 1/4" milled slot when the supplier doesn't have the same inch size as you.
And that isn't far fetched. Gas piping thread sizes in inches are referenced to 1 inch being about 33.7mm. Try measuring that with a caliper that has 1" = 25.4mm.

Pipe sizes are complicated:  smaller pipes for gas, etc., are approximately the inner diameter of the pipe, and with changes to wall thickness over the decades the actual inside diameter has changed somewhat.
"One inch" NPS1 is 33.4 mm = 1.315 inch OD.
The inner diameter is roughly 1 inch, but varies depending on the "schedule", meaning code for wall thickness.
Flexible tubing, however, is specified by its outer diameter.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 11:27:37 pm by TimFox »
 

Online IanB

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Re: UK back to "imperial" measurements ?
« Reply #64 on: May 30, 2022, 11:41:30 pm »
Pipe sizes are complicated:  smaller pipes for gas, etc., are approximately the inner diameter of the pipe, and with changes to wall thickness over the decades the actual inside diameter has changed somewhat.
"One inch" NPS1 is 33.4 mm = 1.315 inch OD.
The inner diameter is roughly 1 inch, but varies depending on the "schedule", meaning code for wall thickness.
Flexible tubing, however, is specified by its outer diameter.

Pipe sizes are, however, highly standardized (even if there are many competing standards). If you know which table of pipe sizes and wall thickness schedules you are working with, then the pipe dimensions will be consistent and predictable.

One thing you can't do, is to assume a "one inch" pipe measures exactly one inch, either inside or outside diameter.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: UK back to "imperial" measurements ?
« Reply #65 on: May 31, 2022, 12:01:09 am »
brilliant news, i can order a pint of bitter and a pint of shandy instead of a pint of bitter and a large shandy
In Oz, we seem to have undergone a process of "Re-Imperialisation by stealth".

If I want to buy a "Pint" of Beer, I will travel to the "Old Dart"---- Oz beer was served by the "Pot", "Schooner", "Middy" or "Glass".
Such measures were so imbedded in the Australian psyche, that the Metrication Board even turned out a chart, specifying the quantities in Metric measures.
yet the states all disagreeing on the names:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_in_Australia#Beer_glasses

Plenty of themed places selling metric beers in 1l/500ml units.
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: UK back to "imperial" measurements ?
« Reply #66 on: May 31, 2022, 12:06:22 am »
Before 1974, the price of gasoline in the US was well below $1.00 per US gallon.
With the oil shock, the price rose, but most gas-station pumps could not use a price above $1.00.
However, most could be set for liters, so Americans found themselves buying gasoline by the liter until the pumps could be replaced.
Now, the US retail price is above $1.00 per liter, but the electronic pump controls can handle much higher prices than that.

Similarly, wine and spirits used to be sold here by the "fifth", which was 1/5 gallon = 0.8 quart = 757.0 ml = 25.6 fl oz.
Taking advantage of the standard European size for spirits and wine bottles, we now buy them in 750 ml size = 25.4 fl oz.
We all know what happens to prices when units change.

Back around that time (actually, a bit earlier, in 1971), I was surprised that Brits asked for "so many gallons" if they ordered fuel.

In Oz, it was normal to just say "fill 'er up", or ask for say "$20 of super, or whatever", & that habit was carried over into self serve pumps.
After all, the amount you were paying was the important bit!

 

Offline Someone

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Re: UK back to "imperial" measurements ?
« Reply #67 on: May 31, 2022, 12:24:54 am »
Re:  Benta

Before 1959, the US legal definition was 1 meter = 39.37 inch (exactly), which is slightly different than the current legal definition (post-1959) that 1 inch = 2.54 cm (exactly).
This makes a difference for legal measurements of land tenure, which just got messed up again recently with the proposed abolition of the "US Survey Foot" that perpetuated the previous definition.
https://www.nist.gov/pml/us-surveyfoot
@TimFox:
which proves my point. If there's no common reference, you're deep in manure. Henry Ford and US industry were smarter. Imagine specifying a precision-cut 1/4" milled slot when the supplier doesn't have the same inch size as you.
Not many real world problems are put out by ppm discrepancies (which is the scale of that linked change). Which comes back around to the actual accuracy achievable in use:

It brags about measurement precision down to low millionths of an inch.
Yes. Those would be the reference Jo Blocks kept in a temperature-controlled safe.
The calibration blocks would be good to 1/1000 mm, the production blocks at around 5/1000 mm.
Normal practice.
 

Offline sleemanj

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Re: UK back to "imperial" measurements ?
« Reply #68 on: May 31, 2022, 12:26:01 am »
exception of the kilogram. That one's still being worked on.

The new definition of the kilogram was adopted in 2019
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: UK back to "imperial" measurements ?
« Reply #69 on: May 31, 2022, 12:32:20 am »
brilliant news, i can order a pint of bitter and a pint of shandy instead of a pint of bitter and a large shandy
In Oz, we seem to have undergone a process of "Re-Imperialisation by stealth".

If I want to buy a "Pint" of Beer, I will travel to the "Old Dart"---- Oz beer was served by the "Pot", "Schooner", "Middy" or "Glass".
Such measures were so imbedded in the Australian psyche, that the Metrication Board even turned out a chart, specifying the quantities in Metric measures.
yet the states all disagreeing on the names:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_in_Australia#Beer_glasses

Plenty of themed places selling metric beers in 1l/500ml units.

I've never heard of "shetland" or "bobbie/six" in WA (maybe made up by the contributor to Wiki?).
Way back, our "middy" was a different size to the  container of that name in other States, & was "brought into line" with theirs, much to the disgust of many in WA-----this was well before Metrication.

Maybe some other States may have kept their original drink sizes, but "pints" seem to have been all-conquering in WA.
Interestingly, in my several later visits (post 2000) to Sydney & Melbourne, I never bought a beer, so my recent experience is all WA.

Another place where I would argue that there has been a resurgence of Imperial measures is in hardware supplies.

If you want to buy a few galvanised bolts in Bunnings, there are shelf after shelf of Imperial ones, but only a few of their Metric counterparts.
I put it down to India, which is a huge (& very inexpensive) supplier of such hardware, being still largely Imperial.
Of course, for most home projects it doesn't much matter.
 

Offline Gregg

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Re: UK back to "imperial" measurements ?
« Reply #70 on: May 31, 2022, 12:48:56 am »
We'll know they are serious if they bring back Whitworth fasteners
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: UK back to "imperial" measurements ?
« Reply #71 on: May 31, 2022, 12:49:39 am »
Nor were Imperial units ever banned in the UK, it's just another lie, more smoke and mirrors to mislead the gullible.

They may not be banned, but they are prohibited. You can go to the greengrocer and buy two pounds of potatoes, but by law the price must be shown by the kilogram and the receipt must show the weight in kg.

https://www.gov.uk/weights-measures-and-packaging-the-law
They aren't prohibited. The law only requires the same common ground units be used for comparing prices. Sometimes that can be something non-metric like price per sheet for toilet paper. We have some weirdities with units in the UK. We went metric around the time home deliveries of milk ended. Home delivered milk was in pint glass bottles. People migrated to buying their milk in litres from the supermarket. At some point, for reasons I don't know, the supermarket milk changed to pint bottles, and that's where they are today. We buy specialised (e.g. chocolate) milks in litre bottles, but plain milk in 1, 2, 4, 6, or 8 pint plastic bottles.

In Oz, the common size for flavoured milks is 600ml, which is "near as dammit" to an Imperial pint.
The more logical size would be 500ml, (which is quite close to a US Pint), but we were used to Imperial Pints, so 600ml, it is!
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: UK back to "imperial" measurements ?
« Reply #72 on: May 31, 2022, 12:53:58 am »
We'll know they are serious if they bring back Whitworth fasteners
Interestingly, Whitworth is semi-compatible with some of the coarser US threads, or as the Brits call them U.N.C.
UK BA, & the finer US sizes so beloved by Tektronix are compatible to nothing else!! >:(
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: UK back to "imperial" measurements ?
« Reply #73 on: May 31, 2022, 01:22:27 am »
Before 1974, the price of gasoline in the US was well below $1.00 per US gallon.
With the oil shock, the price rose, but most gas-station pumps could not use a price above $1.00.
However, most could be set for liters, so Americans found themselves buying gasoline by the liter until the pumps could be replaced.
Now, the US retail price is above $1.00 per liter, but the electronic pump controls can handle much higher prices than that.

Similarly, wine and spirits used to be sold here by the "fifth", which was 1/5 gallon = 0.8 quart = 757.0 ml = 25.6 fl oz.
Taking advantage of the standard European size for spirits and wine bottles, we now buy them in 750 ml size = 25.4 fl oz.
We all know what happens to prices when units change.

They were always referred to as "26 fl oz" bottles in Australia, so we were probably getting "ripped off" for 0.4 ml all along, so what's another 0.2ml between friends.
You can still buy beer in "big brown bottles" in this country (although they are not so popular as they were).
From the look of them, they are still reusing the same old ones from years back!
 

Online IanB

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Re: UK back to "imperial" measurements ?
« Reply #74 on: May 31, 2022, 01:42:37 am »
They aren't prohibited. The law only requires the same common ground units be used for comparing prices. Sometimes that can be something non-metric like price per sheet for toilet paper. We have some weirdities with units in the UK.

Indeed, and some of these weird oddities do give rise to things which are prohibited.

I recall a story in the news a while back, where some Continental-style café/bars in the UK were trying to sell beer by the 500 ml glass, as is traditional in Europe. The law came down on them like a ton (or tonne?) of bricks and said they were not allowed to do that.

But conversely, the spirit measure in England became 25 ml instead of 1/6 gill (and the Scots got short changed). Such is British legislation.

On a related note, can any US members remember buying a pint of whiskey?
« Last Edit: May 31, 2022, 01:44:10 am by IanB »
 


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