Author Topic: UK electrical wiring  (Read 5391 times)

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Offline MajorbobTopic starter

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UK electrical wiring
« on: February 13, 2021, 05:21:19 am »
I'm looking at rewiring my house because it's awful and there aren't enough sockets where they need to be.  I've been brushing up on my knowledge of the IET regs and am wondering why the bottom of walls is not a "safe zone" (to use 17th ed terminology).  I like the idea of having the wiring going through the skirting as I have heated flooring and, to me, it seems a much more logical place to route it all for increased adaptability and ease of access in the event of faults or additions than burying it in the wall.  (For reference all walls are brick, including internal.)

My question is why is this deemed such a bad idea? I've seen people saying about people banging nails etc into the skirting but I can think of 0 (zero) times I've seem something nailed or screwed there! (Except cable clips).
 

Offline james_s

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Re: UK electrical wiring
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2021, 05:28:25 am »
That would certainly be illegal here for exactly the reason you state, but then so would burying wires under the surface of a wall where someone could put a nail in to hang a picture or install a shelf or something. Either way if the convention is to not have any wires in certain places then people getting into those areas in the future are not going to expect there to be wires in the way. There also may be some consideration for flooding, especially if you have any junctions down low.

Bottom line is it doesn't really matter why the code requires what it does, you have to follow the code anyway.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: UK electrical wiring
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2021, 05:32:01 am »
I'm looking at rewiring my house because it's awful and there aren't enough sockets where they need to be.  I've been brushing up on my knowledge of the IET regs and am wondering why the bottom of walls is not a "safe zone" (to use 17th ed terminology).  I like the idea of having the wiring going through the skirting as I have heated flooring and, to me, it seems a much more logical place to route it all for increased adaptability and ease of access in the event of faults or additions than burying it in the wall.  (For reference all walls are brick, including internal.)

My question is why is this deemed such a bad idea? I've seen people saying about people banging nails etc into the skirting but I can think of 0 (zero) times I've seem something nailed or screwed there! (Except cable clips).

Err, because the cables would be behind the skirting you're likely to fix with nails or screws.

You can use trunking as skirting, at which point it's no longer buried and safe zones don't apply, but you probably won't like the PVC aesthetic..

so would burying wires under the surface of a wall where someone could put a nail in to hang a picture or install a shelf or something.

That's.. where all your cables go as it is.
 

Offline gnuarm

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Re: UK electrical wiring
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2021, 05:46:50 am »
I'm looking at rewiring my house because it's awful and there aren't enough sockets where they need to be.  I've been brushing up on my knowledge of the IET regs and am wondering why the bottom of walls is not a "safe zone" (to use 17th ed terminology).  I like the idea of having the wiring going through the skirting as I have heated flooring and, to me, it seems a much more logical place to route it all for increased adaptability and ease of access in the event of faults or additions than burying it in the wall.  (For reference all walls are brick, including internal.)

My question is why is this deemed such a bad idea? I've seen people saying about people banging nails etc into the skirting but I can think of 0 (zero) times I've seem something nailed or screwed there! (Except cable clips).

Err, because the cables would be behind the skirting you're likely to fix with nails or screws.

You can use trunking as skirting, at which point it's no longer buried and safe zones don't apply, but you probably won't like the PVC aesthetic..

I'm with the OP on this one.  I'm in the US so I don't know how homes are built in the UK, but here we use wooden studs for framing and drywall (also known as sheet rock) for the wall itself.  Wiring is run through holes drilled in the studs and electrical boxes secured to the sheet rock or to the studs.  There are no regulations on the height of the wiring that I am aware of.  I know  vertical wires are to be affixed to a stud but the horizontal wiring is simply run though the holes in the studs. 

So most wiring is at the level of outlets which are about two feet off the ground (the height of the outlet boxes is standard), or up and down the studs.  Working on walls people know this and avoid those areas.  I believe a metal plate is supposed to be used behind the sheet rock where a wire goes through a stud because nails are commonly driven there.  Drive a nail into sheet rock and it will just fallout again. 

So why would anyone be putting nails randomly through panels knowing wiring might be on the other side?  Don't you use studs?  Or is the paneling heavy enough that screws and nails are driven through them?


Quote
so would burying wires under the surface of a wall where someone could put a nail in to hang a picture or install a shelf or something.

That's.. where all your cables go as it is.

Yeah, I'm not picturing this at all.
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Offline Monkeh

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Re: UK electrical wiring
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2021, 05:55:20 am »
 
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Offline MajorbobTopic starter

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Re: UK electrical wiring
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2021, 06:02:11 am »

Err, because the cables would be behind the skirting you're likely to fix with nails or screws.

You can use trunking as skirting, at which point it's no longer buried and safe zones don't apply, but you probably won't like the PVC aesthetic..


But surely if you are fixing the skirting with nails or screws then you should be aware that the wiring is there?

For a reference to all of you who are outside of the UK this is a picture showing the "permitted wiring zones".
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: UK electrical wiring
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2021, 06:04:23 am »

Err, because the cables would be behind the skirting you're likely to fix with nails or screws.

You can use trunking as skirting, at which point it's no longer buried and safe zones don't apply, but you probably won't like the PVC aesthetic..


But surely if you are fixing the skirting with nails or screws then you should be aware that the wiring is there?

Not if it's been covered over to provide a surface you can fix the skirting to?
 

Offline MajorbobTopic starter

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Re: UK electrical wiring
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2021, 06:11:27 am »
Sorry, I don't grasp that, not if what has been covered over?

The skirting will be recessed at the back to allow wires to travel safely between it and the wall, and vertical holes will be made where required to feed sockets mounted directly above the skirting.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: UK electrical wiring
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2021, 06:14:47 am »
Sorry, I don't grasp that, not if what has been covered over?

The skirting will be recessed at the back to allow wires to travel safely between it and the wall, and vertical holes will be made where required to feed sockets mounted directly above the skirting.

Well that's ugly. You're looking for the council estate appearance then?

You underestimate the space required by the wiring compared to the area you could remove from the back of a piece of skirting. Now imagine someone coming along wanting to fit a doorstop..
 

Offline MajorbobTopic starter

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Re: UK electrical wiring
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2021, 06:26:23 am »
Sorry, I don't grasp that, not if what has been covered over?

The skirting will be recessed at the back to allow wires to travel safely between it and the wall, and vertical holes will be made where required to feed sockets mounted directly above the skirting.

Well that's ugly. You're looking for the council estate appearance then?

You underestimate the space required by the wiring compared to the area you could remove from the back of a piece of skirting. Now imagine someone coming along wanting to fit a doorstop..

Aesthetics will come later when I've determined the viability.  My goal at this stage is to gain an understanding of why it seems such an unpopular idea and whether it's worth continuing with.

Deep skirting with enough material to make space for T&E is available, and skirting can easily be high enough to have seperate channels for data/power/TV etc.  Doorstops had escaped my mind, it may be end-of-nightshift-brain not working properly but there aren't many things that would be normally attached to the skirting?
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: UK electrical wiring
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2021, 06:33:00 am »
Aesthetics will come later when I've determined the viability.  My goal at this stage is to gain an understanding of why it seems such an unpopular idea and whether it's worth continuing with.

Specifically burying it in the wall behind skirting is not acceptable for the reason I gave. Putting it in the skirting is unpopular because it's ugly.

Quote
Deep skirting with enough material to make space for T&E is available, and skirting can easily be high enough to have seperate channels for data/power/TV etc.

Products are specifically available for this purpose. They're ugly, and if you paint them the paint is destroyed when opening. If you fill and paint modified wooden skirting, the skirting is destroyed in gaining access. I suppose real wood with brass screws could look okay and be removable, but the damage then done to modify wiring behind it defeats the idea. Running up on the surface is impractical with multiple compartments.

This stuff may survive the removal of the cover with care: https://www.rockwellbuildingplastics.co.uk/products/mdf-skirting-trunking-65mm-x-24m-white.html

Surface runs out of that would be gopping. It's just barely big enough for some T&E.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2021, 06:39:26 am by Monkeh »
 

Offline MajorbobTopic starter

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Re: UK electrical wiring
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2021, 06:42:50 am »
Aesthetics will come later when I've determined the viability.  My goal at this stage is to gain an understanding of why it seems such an unpopular idea and whether it's worth continuing with.

Specifically burying it in the wall behind skirting is not acceptable for the reason I gave. Putting it in the skirting is unpopular because it's ugly.


I understand the burying it in the wall point, plus if you're going to bury it in the wall, you might as well do it at the same level as your sockets.

Quote

Quote
Deep skirting with enough material to make space for T&E is available, and skirting can easily be high enough to have seperate channels for data/power/TV etc.

Products are specifically available for this purpose. They're ugly, and if you paint them the paint is destroyed when opening. If you fill and paint modified wooden skirting, the skirting is destroyed in gaining access. I suppose real wood with brass screws could look okay and be removable, but the damage then done to modify wiring behind it defeats the idea. Running up on the surface is impractical with multiple compartments.

Yes, I have seen the kind of ugly PVC skirtings with multiple compartments.  I have also seen skirting with routed channels, but you make a good point with its removal.

You make some good reasons against the idea and have given me good thinking food, thankyou.
 

Offline MajorbobTopic starter

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Re: UK electrical wiring
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2021, 06:45:21 am »
Quote
This stuff may survive the removal of the cover with care: https://www.rockwellbuildingplastics.co.uk/products/mdf-skirting-trunking-65mm-x-24m-white.html

Surface runs out of that would be gopping. It's just barely big enough for some T&E.

I've seen the rockwell stuff before and decided it'll be too ugly/too much hassle.  You'll get T&E along it but you'll struggle getting it round a bend or out again!
 

Offline james_s

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Re: UK electrical wiring
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2021, 07:28:34 am »
But surely if you are fixing the skirting with nails or screws then you should be aware that the wiring is there?

For a reference to all of you who are outside of the UK this is a picture showing the "permitted wiring zones".
(Attachment Link)


What about the next person who lives in the house? Most houses go through multiple owners, and many people will expect things to be done according to code. Again, if the electrical code forbids running the wires where you want to run them, it doesn't matter why it's forbidden beyond curiosity, you can't do it in a way that is not compliant to code. If you are doing something as major as rewiring the house I would hope that you're going to get it properly permitted and inspected. This is a much more major undertaking than adding a socket or a light somewhere.
 

Offline gnuarm

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Re: UK electrical wiring
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2021, 05:02:55 pm »
Sorry, I don't grasp that, not if what has been covered over?

The skirting will be recessed at the back to allow wires to travel safely between it and the wall, and vertical holes will be made where required to feed sockets mounted directly above the skirting.

"English is the common language that divides our countries."

I think my idea of skirting is not like yours.  Perhaps you can explain what that is. 

In the US wires are either behind the drywall or are in a metal conduit or raceway on the surface.  Wires are not run within layers of drywall (sheet rock) or paneling (looks like wood but rather thin). 
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: UK electrical wiring
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2021, 05:09:21 pm »
Quote
This stuff may survive the removal of the cover with care: https://www.rockwellbuildingplastics.co.uk/products/mdf-skirting-trunking-65mm-x-24m-white.html

Surface runs out of that would be gopping. It's just barely big enough for some T&E.

I've seen the rockwell stuff before and decided it'll be too ugly/too much hassle.  You'll get T&E along it but you'll struggle getting it round a bend or out again!
If it's in trunking you could surely use singles instead of T&E ?
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Offline Monkeh

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Re: UK electrical wiring
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2021, 05:11:14 pm »
Quote
This stuff may survive the removal of the cover with care: https://www.rockwellbuildingplastics.co.uk/products/mdf-skirting-trunking-65mm-x-24m-white.html

Surface runs out of that would be gopping. It's just barely big enough for some T&E.

I've seen the rockwell stuff before and decided it'll be too ugly/too much hassle.  You'll get T&E along it but you'll struggle getting it round a bend or out again!
If it's in trunking you could surely use singles instead of T&E ?

The entire run including any penetrations through walls and runs in floor and ceiling voids would then have to be in conduit or trunking, unless you add lots of joints and enclosures for them..
 

Offline themadhippy

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Re: UK electrical wiring
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2021, 05:20:18 pm »
yes you can run the wiring behind the skirting.as long  as its in metal conduit, steal wire armored cableor some other earthed metallic covering.I do hope you've registered the job with your local council buildings control office and paid the appropriate fees.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: UK electrical wiring
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2021, 05:24:18 pm »
I'm looking at rewiring my house because it's awful and there aren't enough sockets where they need to be.  I've been brushing up on my knowledge of the IET regs and am wondering why the bottom of walls is not a "safe zone" (to use 17th ed terminology).  I like the idea of having the wiring going through the skirting as I have heated flooring and, to me, it seems a much more logical place to route it all for increased adaptability and ease of access in the event of faults or additions than burying it in the wall.  (For reference all walls are brick, including internal.)
If the walls are brick then I'd cut slits in them to facilitate extra wiring (in conduit -but don't use the flexible stuff; pulling wires through it is horrible-). You can rent machines to cut these slits. Building some kind of trunking onto the walls is beyond ugly.
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Offline gnuarm

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Re: UK electrical wiring
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2021, 05:32:03 pm »
I'm looking at rewiring my house because it's awful and there aren't enough sockets where they need to be.  I've been brushing up on my knowledge of the IET regs and am wondering why the bottom of walls is not a "safe zone" (to use 17th ed terminology).  I like the idea of having the wiring going through the skirting as I have heated flooring and, to me, it seems a much more logical place to route it all for increased adaptability and ease of access in the event of faults or additions than burying it in the wall.  (For reference all walls are brick, including internal.)
If the walls are brick then I'd cut slits in them to facilitate extra wiring (in conduit -but don't use the flexible stuff; pulling wires through it is horrible-). You can rent machines to cut these slits. Building some kind of trunking onto the walls is beyond ugly.

Brick!!!  Don't you guys add insulation at the inside face of the brick?  No framing?  No space to add insulation?  That is where wires are run in the US. 

I recall a home improvements TV show at a construction site where they used site fabricated, solid foam insulation for walls.  They had to cut openings for doors and windows.  They indicated running wiring was a bit of a bother, I don't recall how they managed that.  I've never heard of this becoming popular.
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Offline themadhippy

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Re: UK electrical wiring
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2021, 05:51:48 pm »
Quote
Brick!!!  Don't you guys add insulation at the inside face of the brick
All depends on the way its built,but generally internal walls wont be insulated.To run the wires on brik walls there placed nice and flat against the wall and covered in either capping (plastic or metal) or oval plastic conduit.The wall gets plastered burying the cables,the covering is to stop the mud chucker (plasterer) from damaging the cables.Nowadays most new homes use stud work for internal walls so the wiring will in the gap between the boards.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: UK electrical wiring
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2021, 09:32:01 pm »
Brick!!!  Don't you guys add insulation at the inside face of the brick?  No framing?  No space to add insulation?  That is where wires are run in the US. 
Yes brick. Insulation is in a cavity between two brick walls.
 

Offline iainwhite

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Re: UK electrical wiring
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2021, 11:12:02 pm »
It is often an inner wall of concrete blocks and an outer wall of brick, separated by an air gap containing insulation.

 

Offline james_s

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Re: UK electrical wiring
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2021, 12:36:06 am »
You certainly wouldn't see anything like that out here in earthquake territory. Looks like it would pose a far greater resistance to fire than the wood houses we have though. Seems like a really easy way to wire a home like that would be to run conduit from box to box and plaster over that.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: UK electrical wiring
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2021, 12:39:02 am »
That is essentially what happens, yes. And why we have safe zones (which extend to most stud walls as well), because thick, heavy, expensive metal conduit isn't really worthwhile.
 


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