UK forum members, BREXIT?

[onesixright]

I'm just curious, voting date is coming up soon.

So, please if you UK resident, please only vote 1 or 2, for all others 3 or 4 

 

[rolycat]

I think we should stay in Europe, and all the Brussels bureaucrats get thrown out. A better BREXIT 

[daqq]

I think we should stay in Europe, and all the Brussels bureaucrats get thrown out. A better BREXIT 

Now there's a thought! I'd love that option.

[dannyf]

Either way, the outcome is better for the UK and EU than the status quo.

[razberik]

I think we should stay in Europe, and all the Brussels bureaucrats get thrown out. A better BREXIT 

Now there's a thought! I'd love that option.

Exactly, however EU seems to be not reformable, so successful brexit should be a memento for leaders and reminder for others (don't vote for idiots which has a bipolar speech, A is said to national parliament, completely opposite B is said to EU parliament).
Personally I hope for Czexit, reasons are exactly the same as for Brexit.

Ad) Existence of European Comission is a fail. Group of dilettantes who are not elected and do not have any responsibility for their proposals.
Remember tungsten bulb ban, SnPb ban (what about banning SnPb for aircraft, shall be very cool) and ... eurofunds. Eastern-EU and middle-EU politicians salivate like a Pavlov's dog when hear "eurofunds".

[NivagSwerdna]

100% BrExit

Have you tried to get your kid into a school? Have you tried to get a GP appointment?  Have you tried to get a Hospital appointment? House Prices!  Zero hours/low paid work!

I live in the South East so maybe I'm biased as maybe we get the brunt of the downside.

To remain is insane.

[zapta]

I think we should stay in Europe, and all the Brussels bureaucrats get thrown out.

You want the bureaucrats that control your life to be closer to you so their decisions are more relevant to your life and you have a better chance of influencing them.

We have similar tension here between levels of bureaucracies, federal, state, country and municipal.

[GEuser]

Choice 3 and 4 are a bit vague , could you just name them stay in or get out? so i had to pick one of the others .

[grumpydoc]

100% BrExit

Have you tried to get your kid into a school? Have you tried to get a GP appointment?  Have you tried to get a Hospital appointment? House Prices!  Zero hours/low paid work!

I live in the South East so maybe I'm biased as maybe we get the brunt of the downside.

To remain is insane.

OK

There is pressure on school places for sure - BUT if we want access to the common market we are likely to have to accept free movement of labour as well - c.f. Norway so voting "leave" is unlikely to change immigration, whatever the Leave campaign say.

GP & Hospital appointments. Well, the NHS seems to be being adversely affected by current Government policy with out reference to Europe. If you believe that pulling out of the EU will free up squillions extra to spend on the NHS you have been conned by the Leave campaign, are living in cloud cuckoo land or both as there is no guarantee that the money would go to the NHS anyway, it is not as much as the Leave crowd claim and, even if the whole net EU contribution was added to NHS funding, £8bn is only just under 7% of the current NHS budget. As for reducing immigration well, see above. Oh and are you planning on sending every EU national "Back Home" because, if not, there will be just as much competition for health care and if you are then don't be surprised if 2 million Ex Pats (and very disgruntled ones at that) turn up on your doorstep asking what tthey do now that Europe has kicked them out.

House prices - well, that's a case of supply and demand and years and years of under-provisioning of new properties. Not helped by the fact that the government thinks England stops at Watford Gap. The problems faced by the property developers which limit their ability to build and sell houses are multiple and include availability of suitable building land, the fact that many young people cannot afford a motgrage anyway and, interestingly, a skills shortage in the building trades. Turning your back on a ready supply of those skills from places like Poland does not seem all that sensible.

Finally I do not see how Zero hours contracts and low paid work are the fault of the EU. In fact it is likely that one of the reasons some of the right wing Brexit crowd want out is precisely to avoid legislation which might protect the workforce from this sort of thing.

I can't see that voting Leave will fix any of your complaints.

[NivagSwerdna]

BUT if we want access to the common market we are likely to have to accept free movement of labour as well

That's a myth.  However unfortunately we don't have any negotiating power until we leave so it's pointless to predict the deal until we have some power back. 
Whatever the deal there is no reason to believe it will be what we have today or zero access, it will be something in between. 
Indeed Schäuble said today we won't get full access to the single market, but then again... he would say that.
Everything is negotiable but only if we are OUT

[wraper]

BUT if we want access to the common market we are likely to have to accept free movement of labour as well

That's a myth.  However unfortunately we don't have any negotiating power until we leave so it's pointless to predict the deal until we have some power back. 

Really? UK screws EU every now and then. Like new EU directive, fuck it because we don't like it, all other countries still need to accept it which puts them in disadvantage. There are so many things UK refused to accept or made EU to accept special preferences for UK, that you will be tired to count. So I really doubt that EU exploits UK, IMO it is completely other way. But if UK exits, guess it will be worse for all, both UK and the rest of EU, at least in near future.

[bitslice]

Merkel completely ruined the EU for me. Fine if you have a demographic time bomb that you need to fix, so do we, but for Christ's sake fix it with people from Spain or Poland that have a similar culture. Do not import Islamofascism from the third world and bully the rest of Europe into supporting your outrageously naive stupidity.
I can't tell you where in the UK the Sikhs, Hindus, Jews, or Poles live, but I can easily tell where every single muslim ghetto is in my area because they don't fit in.
Jews are now leaving the UK because they don't feel safe here, and our politicians are hell bent on making that situation worse by the day.

The insufferable Champagne Socialist, Miliband was on the radio today, talking down to people as usual. "Nobody understands our message on immigration" - Yes we do you Metropolitan numpty, you just can't accept that you've destroyed whole communities with your failed social experiments. As Blair's henchman put it: "To rub the Right's nose in diversity"

[Nauris]

EU is turning into abomination. Get out while you can.

[grumpydoc]

BUT if we want access to the common market we are likely to have to accept free movement of labour as well

That's a myth.

OK, so the "Swiss model". Which took at least 10 years to set up, covers far fewer trade sectors and agreements than we would need, required considerable concessions on the part of the Swiss and provides an ongoing legislative burden on the Swiss government. Oh, and I believe the EU has said it was so complex it would not entertain setting up anything like it again.

Or the Canadian model - which has taken ages to set up, is not complete, does not provide tariff free access to the market and does not cover services (which are essential ti the UK economy).

However unfortunately we don't have any negotiating power until we leave so it's pointless to predict the deal until we have some power back. 
Whatever the deal there is no reason to believe it will be what we have today or zero access, it will be something in between. 
Indeed Schäuble said today we won't get full access to the single market, but then again... he would say that.
Everything is negotiable but only if we are OUT

I'm not clear how much negotiating power we will have once out. Brexit is potentially destabilising to Europe and I think that the EU will want to demonstrate how much damage pulling out can do - "pour décourager les autres".

The whole debate annoys me though. No-one really knows what the consequences will be, but the politicians feel that they must present their arguments as cast iron fact. Unfortunately sometimes bending the truth to breaking point to support their arguments, presenting half truths as fact and, when that fails, poring scorn on "the other side". The result is that there is no sensible debate and the Great British Public is being put off from actually thinking rationally about the issue - which is probably more important than any General Election (John Major is right about that one).

[NivagSwerdna]

I'm going to stop contributing to this thread (if I can help myself).  EEVBlog is a sanctuary from the referendum.

[dannyf]

Do not import Islamofascism from the third world and bully the rest of Europe into supporting your outrageously naive stupidity.

That's the basic message I have for my pro-illegal immigration pro-ghetto friends: in a free world, every sovereign country should have to right to import as many people of any type they wish ***into their own country***, as long as those people are confined to that country and with no externality on other countries / other peoples.

The same for those pro-illegal immigration activists. They can sponsor as many illegals as they could, as long as they bear the cost of supporting such illegals and confine those illegals to their apartments, their homes, their towns, ...

The problem often that those who love illegal immigrants love more of parking those illegal immigrants in other people's backyards.

aka Germany.

[grumpydoc]

I'm going to stop contributing to this thread (if I can help myself).  EEVBlog is a sanctuary from the referendum.

As much as I like a good argument I agree. No radiation with a wavelength in the 380 to 750nm range is going to be generated. It's all going to be in the 8–15 µm region.

[Wilksey]

What is common are a shed load of "Vote Leave" posters including in shopping centres, but I haven't seen any "Vote Stay"...

[dannyf]

However unfortunately we don't have any negotiating power until we leave

Absolutely.

A union, any union, is the strongest when its members are free to leave.

[mtdoc]

New poll today showing 55% in favor of exit. 

If I were a Brit, I think I'd be voting to exit.

[rich]

I couldn't see the voting option for: "If the qualified politicians, economists etc. elected to run the country full-time can't agree on what's best, then how am I supposed to decide objectively in my spare-time using soundbite propaganda uttered by both sides and delivered through biased media? It would be irresponsible of me to vote without running a full simulation of the next 100 years of The World "

The whole referendum campaigns are about pressing people's buttons hard enough so they vote in a particular way without realising the negative effects that vote has (true for both sides). The fact that it is pretty much 50:50 shows its a crapshoot at best.

I've read some interesting opinions expressed in various forums because of the referendum, so it's positive people are talking and engaging, but I have to agree with grumpydoc - very few are thinking and updating their opinions based on rational though which is after all what debate should be about.

[grumpydoc]

New poll today showing 55% in favor of exit. 

Oh dear.

If I were a Brit, I think I'd be voting to exit.

Because?

In case there is any doubt I will declare myself to be in the "Remain" camp.

[kaz911]

Name a British politician - easy - lots  -
Name a British Politician elected to the EU Parliament  - ..... (without googling) .. well that was hard was it  not? And when did you see one on TV last?

EU is ruling Europe from behind a big black curtain with no transparency at all.

No respect for member states money. All they care about is expanding the number of member countries to "expand" their power. That is why so many former Eastern European countries are now full members despite being so far away from the "idea(l)" of EU. Power mongers...

I don't doubt leaving EU will damage UK - but if UK does not leave - the next 200 years will be rough on the UK from EU because of all the offended bureaucrats with elephant memories. If UK leaves it will send a signal that is important - which is "We had enough" and that is a clear signal. It will hurt like ripping off a band-aid (or more like old scabs) - but big companies exporting to the UK will quickly make certain trade agreements will come into effect.

Does Audi, Mercedes, BMW and Porsche want to loose such a huge % of their EU market - not likely.. So they will set Merkels auto-pilot to steer towards the UK.

France wont say a lot as they are on the brink of a Greek style crisis. Spain is just recovering slowly - Italy is more focused on their own stuff. Scandinavia is finding out integration of radically different people is hard and is pushing against EU and have put in huge border controls to stem migration. The Netherlands are in trouble for all their business with Eastern Europe that made them a lot of money - is banned due to EU's Putin sanctions.

From my personal side on Brexit - yes my house might decline in value - yes income might drop - but I do think out is better than in (in this case).

But the bigger issue is without leadership reform in the EU - at some point there will be revolutions. That has happened to EVERY single "big" Government in History since beginning of recorded history and possibly before . The more rules - the bigger the government - the more annoyed a population - the closer the society is to collapse from one reason or another. And maybe a Brexit can help initiate a "reform" - so we can get a "silent & non-violent" revolution.

But for a twice a week podcast on world news dissected - follow the "No Agenda" podcast. Fun as it gets and takes a stab at the established news media and takes what news media reports apart. After EEVBlog and AmpHour they are my favorite "broadcasters" at the moment. And not an ADVERT in sight - all financed by donations from private individuals. Website: http://www.noagendashow.com/ - and despite being 'Merican (not Mexican) - they have a "reasonable" grasp of the European politics as well but with 'Merican angle.

[dannyf]

"If the qualified politicians, economists etc. elected to run the country full-time can't agree on what's best, then how am I supposed to decide objectively in my spare-time using soundbite propaganda uttered by both sides and delivered through biased media?

Doesn't sound you have a lot of confidence in  your own ability to decide for yourself.

There are a lot of research to suggest that the "uneducated" mass is pretty good at finding a good outcome for themselves without the "elites".

[dannyf]

despite being 'Merican (not Mexican)

Not for long. There is a "Make America Mexico Again" movement going strong right this moment,