Poll

So, what you (UK) guys think? Exit or not to exit?

YES, please get me out of there (I'm UK) [go]
41 (19.5%)
Hell no, we are one big (happy) family! (I'm UK) [stay]
42 (20%)
OMG, let them Go! [go]
63 (30%)
I love the UK, they are family! [stay]
64 (30.5%)

Total Members Voted: 208

Voting closed: July 10, 2016, 10:29:34 am

Author Topic: UK forum members, BREXIT?  (Read 362759 times)

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Offline doobedoobedo

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1575 on: July 04, 2016, 01:19:50 pm »
I didn't realise I should discount everything he says because of that though.
I didn't say that, I was just wondering if this is a minority that has the power and wants to keep the power and that might be the reason for his opinion. If that is a good thing or not, i don't care. Just interested in someones agenda and then listen to him with that agenda in mind  ;)

He's very consistent and seems principled, although I don't agree with everything he says. Everyone has an agenda on this topic...

Quote from: Kjelt link=topic=69503.msg975985#msg975985 date=1467634127
But I believe the lists of candidates are decided on by the individual political parties, unless someone stands as an independent.
So how is this different from the EU where the members are (s)elected inside the parties ?
All I am saying is that by his own definition of lack of democracy he is part of the same practice. If you want to run tomorrow you are not getting on the list.
Most people do not realize how little democratic their democracy really is. BTW the same here in Holland, same crappy system.
When you vote for UK parliamentry elections you get the chance to vote for one candidate from each party standing, plus any independents, you can hold them personally accountable, I have one MP who I can engage with. If I don't consider they are doing a good job I won't vote for them again.

I have 8 MEPs from 5 parties. If I remember correctly in EU elections you only get to vote for a party, not an individual. So my MEPs, though pretty much powerless, are also much less personally accountable.
 

Offline Kalvin

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1576 on: July 04, 2016, 01:21:11 pm »
Quote
One thing really bothers me is that there were clearly few major-class false claims and promises in the pro-Brexit campain which could have had a profound effect on the result.

isn't that a good thing? Sounds like you are saying that the pro-Brexit camp won in spite of making fewer claims / promises.

or you think they should have lied more?

Hah :) Sorry, language issue, my bad. Made the correction into my original posting.
 

Offline doobedoobedo

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1577 on: July 04, 2016, 01:28:14 pm »
Quote
One thing really bothers me is that there were clearly few major-class false claims and promises in the pro-Brexit campain which could have had a profound effect on the result.

isn't that a good thing? Sounds like you are saying that the pro-Brexit camp won in spite of making fewer claims / promises.

or you think they should have lied more?

Hah :) Sorry, language issue, my bad. Made the correction into my original posting.

If you want to claim that the Brexit side lied that's fine. It's all a matter of scale.

The remain side claimed that Brexit would start WW III.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1578 on: July 04, 2016, 01:33:57 pm »
Quote
One thing really bothers me is that there were clearly few major-class false claims and promises in the pro-Brexit campain which could have had a profound effect on the result.

isn't that a good thing? Sounds like you are saying that the pro-Brexit camp won in spite of making fewer claims / promises.

or you think they should have lied more?

Hah :) Sorry, language issue, my bad. Made the correction into my original posting.

If you want to claim that the Brexit side lied that's fine. It's all a matter of scale.

The remain side claimed that Brexit would start WW III.
Both sides lied. I wonder if the result would be any different if both sides only told the truth?
 

Offline Alex Nikitin

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1579 on: July 04, 2016, 01:48:53 pm »
Both sides lied. I wonder if the result would be any different if both sides only told the truth?

Which truth?  ::) .

Cheers

Alex
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1580 on: July 04, 2016, 02:12:46 pm »
I hope this can be contained as merely a political bloodbath. My fear is what happens when the disenfranchised brexiters realise that either (a) brexit will hit them harder than the establishment, or (b) that establishment politicians don't deliver what they promised. Neither is good for the democratic process.

Welcome to the 1930s, in the Weimar Republic.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Online tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1581 on: July 04, 2016, 02:21:09 pm »
Oh. Good. Grief.

Translation: I can't explain my idea, so my ideological opponents must do it for me.
Original: "Boris Johnson has accused the government of failing to explain how the vote to leave the EU can be made to work in the UK's interests."

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36700468
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline Alex Nikitin

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1582 on: July 04, 2016, 02:27:00 pm »
Oh. Good. Grief.

Translation: I can't explain my idea, so my ideological opponents must do it for me.
Original: "Boris Johnson has accused the government of failing to explain how the vote to leave the EU can be made to work in the UK's interests."

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36700468

 :palm:

You are quoting the BBC headline interpretation of what BJ said (or not said, as might be the case) and translate from it! Ouch!

Cheers

Alex
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1583 on: July 04, 2016, 02:34:40 pm »
Welcome to the 1930s, in the Weimar Republic.
Why? Did you loose a long war and were blead dry by the winning countries?
Don't think so. Business will get back as usual but a bit less probably.
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1584 on: July 04, 2016, 02:41:55 pm »
Oh. Good. Grief.

Translation: I can't explain my idea, so my ideological opponents must do it for me.
Original: "Boris Johnson has accused the government of failing to explain how the vote to leave the EU can be made to work in the UK's interests."

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36700468

 :palm:

You are quoting the BBC headline interpretation of what BJ said (or not said, as might be the case) and translate from it! Ouch!

Given the gravity of the situation, even if there is only 10% truth (whatever that might mean) to the reports, it is effing disgraceful and very worrying for the future. There should be zero need for any remotely similar headlines.

The positions (whether or not you agree with them) should be so self-evident that no explanation should be necessary.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1585 on: July 04, 2016, 02:55:07 pm »
Cameron exit
Johnson exit
Farage exit

Who is going to take it on her/his shoulders to bare the responsibility?  :popcorn:
 

Offline Alex Nikitin

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1586 on: July 04, 2016, 03:08:29 pm »
Given the gravity of the situation, even if there is only 10% truth (whatever that might mean) to the reports, it is effing disgraceful and very worrying for the future. There should be zero need for any remotely similar headlines.

The positions (whether or not you agree with them) should be so self-evident that no explanation should be necessary.

You should complain to the BBC. They made a lot of effort to be as scary as possible on the Brexit issue. I can see that they successfully induced some irrational fear in you  ;) .

Cheers

Alex
 

Online rstofer

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1587 on: July 04, 2016, 03:18:45 pm »
The Brexit turnout was 72% which means that 28% didn't vote for a reason or another. Leave won with 52% while Remain lost with 48%, which means that 37% of all Britons wanted to Leave, 35% wanted to remain and 28% didn't state their opinions. We can of course speculate why the remaining 28% didn't vote: Either they didn't care, the status quo is just fine, or due to some other reason. Nevertheless, the Leave votes doesn't represent the majority of the Britons (only 37%), although the Leave votes represent the majority of the voters.


All true but irrelevant.  You can't make the position that all of the non-voters would have voted to remain.  Nor can I make the position that they would have all voted to leave.  Maybe the percentages would have varied in a 100% vote but maybe not.  You think 'status quo' is one possible thought, I think 'I simply don't care how it works out' is another.

The only proper way to handle elections is to REQUIRE people to vote.  Singapore does that and I think it is because, on average, people want to maintain the status quo.  Nobody likes change.  Which, of course, supports your position.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1588 on: July 04, 2016, 03:34:40 pm »
Quote
One thing really bothers me is that there were clearly some major-class false claims and promises in the pro-Brexit campaign which could have had a profound effect on the result.

That can be difficult to do.

Many times, "facts" and "opinions" are hard to separate. And then you have the issue of what's said and what's being perceived. On top of that, people should be able to express their opinions freely, politicians included.

Having said that, I do think if you can prove the intent of fraud (next to impossible to do in reality), you should be able to file a lawsuit.
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Offline Tepe

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1589 on: July 04, 2016, 03:57:08 pm »
The only proper way to handle elections is to REQUIRE people to vote.
It appears that the western countries that have proportional representation tend to have higher voter turnouts than countries, like the UK and the US, that don't. Between 85% and 90% is certainly not unheard of. The voters in proportional representation systems are a lot less likely to be disenfranchised and politically alienated.
ceterum censeo systemd-inem esse delendam
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1590 on: July 04, 2016, 04:20:11 pm »
Quote
One thing really bothers me is that there were clearly some major-class false claims and promises in the pro-Brexit campaign which could have had a profound effect on the result.

That can be difficult to do.

It took hours, not days, for several prominent pro-Brexiters to whine "I didn't say that" when presented with the claims made by Brexiteers. They knew they were lies, and they chose not to correct the lies being made by their own campaign.

And if you want to see deceitful squirming w.r.t. "black" propaganda before the vote, have a look at the questioning and (lack of) answers in this Parliamentary committee where Dominic Cummings is questioned by Andrew Tyrie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fJjShkGCa4c#t=661

I came across one of those leaflets a few months ago, and I was taken in by it for a few minutes.

Please don't bring up the lies told by the other side: two wrongs don't make a right. One side isn't responsible for the claims made by the other - but they damn well ought to be responsible for what their own side says.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 04:23:26 pm by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline vodka

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1591 on: July 04, 2016, 04:36:51 pm »
Cameron exit
Johnson exit
Farage exit

Who is going to take it on her/his shoulders to bare the responsibility?  :popcorn:

Simply an other Spider Captain that embarked the troops on the ships but the captain disappeared.

I believe that the british must  consider to reinstatement the Capital punishment for abandoning to duty whith the goal that the troop don't down the morale
 

Online MK14

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1592 on: July 04, 2016, 04:45:19 pm »
Quote
One thing really bothers me is that there were clearly some major-class false claims and promises in the pro-Brexit campaign which could have had a profound effect on the result.

That can be difficult to do.

It took hours, not days, for several prominent pro-Brexiters to whine "I didn't say that" when presented with the claims made by Brexiteers. They knew they were lies, and they chose not to correct the lies being made by their own campaign.

And if you want to see deceitful squirming w.r.t. "black" propaganda before the vote, have a look at the questioning and (lack of) answers in this Parliamentary committee where Dominic Cummings is questioned by Andrew Tyrie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fJjShkGCa4c#t=661

I came across one of those leaflets a few months ago, and I was taken in by it for a few minutes.

Please don't bring up the lies told by the other side: two wrongs don't make a right. One side isn't responsible for the claims made by the other - but they damn well ought to be responsible for what their own side says.

I'm disappointed that truthful/accurate information was generally NOT supplied to the electorate (politically).

For a referendum, it would be much better (in my opinion), if (politically) independent bodies could be funded, who report to the electorate, with reliable/truthful/accurate/un-biased facts/opinions, as to the referendum situation.

As it was the politicians put their own slants on the information, and news sources want to (typically) gain as many views/publicity as possible, so they tend to exaggerate and leave out less popular stuff.

The Scottish (exit the UK) referendum was similar, and I was very disappointed in the apparent lies and/or exaggerations etc of the leave the UK campaign.

If a business was trying to make a very important decision. They need/want to have reliable/accurate and un-biased information.

I'm disappointed that was not the case in the referendum, in many cases.

E.g. 350 Million pounds per week MORE for the NHS.
Obviously the money (much of which we get back anyway, would be spent elsewhere).
« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 04:49:57 pm by MK14 »
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1593 on: July 04, 2016, 04:47:39 pm »
Quote
One thing really bothers me is that there were clearly some major-class false claims and promises in the pro-Brexit campaign which could have had a profound effect on the result.

That can be difficult to do.

It took hours, not days, for several prominent pro-Brexiters to whine "I didn't say that" when presented with the claims made by Brexiteers. They knew they were lies, and they chose not to correct the lies being made by their own campaign.

And if you want to see deceitful squirming w.r.t. "black" propaganda before the vote, have a look at the questioning and (lack of) answers in this Parliamentary committee where Dominic Cummings is questioned by Andrew Tyrie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fJjShkGCa4c#t=661

I came across one of those leaflets a few months ago, and I was taken in by it for a few minutes.

Please don't bring up the lies told by the other side: two wrongs don't make a right. One side isn't responsible for the claims made by the other - but they damn well ought to be responsible for what their own side says.

I'm disappointed that truthful/accurate information was generally NOT supplied to the electorate.

For a referendum, it would be much better (in my opinion), if (politically) independent bodies could be funded, who report to the electorate, with reliable/truthful/accurate/un-biased facts/opinions, as to the referendum situation.

As it was the politicians put their own slants on the information, and news sources want to (typically) gain as many views/publicity as possible, so they tend to exaggerate and leave out less popular stuff.

The Scottish (exit the UK) referendum was similar, and I was very disappointed in the apparent lies and/or exaggerations etc of the leave the UK campaign.

Precisely. The debate was a national disgrace and made me ashamed to be British.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline dannyf

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1594 on: July 04, 2016, 05:04:29 pm »
Quote
It appears that the western countries that have proportional representation tend to have higher voter turnouts than countries, like the UK and the US, that don't.

Could it be other factors at work? like size? fairly good political system? reasonably uniform cultures / background / believes? ........

You have to control for other variables or you arrive at misleading conclusions.
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Online chris_leyson

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1595 on: July 04, 2016, 05:09:19 pm »
Quote
Precisely. The debate was a national disgrace and made me ashamed to be British.
Yep, me too man, and probably a lot of other Brits on the forum, I don't think British politics has ever sunken so low. Now there is a legal challange and changes to the constitution will need to debated in parliament before article 50 can be agreed to, a lot of people now doubting if Brexit will ever happen.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1596 on: July 04, 2016, 05:22:32 pm »
I'm disappointed that truthful/accurate information was generally NOT supplied to the electorate (politically).
For a referendum, it would be much better (in my opinion), if (politically) independent bodies could be funded, who report to the electorate, with reliable/truthful/accurate/un-biased facts/opinions, as to the referendum situation.
Even if there were such a thing as independent organisation, that still would have been money flushed down the drain IMO, because the truth simply is, nobody knows what is going to happen now.
But thanks to the UK voters we are going to find out what happens next.
 
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Online MK14

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1597 on: July 04, 2016, 05:37:05 pm »
Even if there were such a thing as independent organisation, that still would have been money flushed down the drain IMO, because the truth simply is, nobody knows what is going to happen now.
But thanks to the UK voters we are going to find out what happens next.

I agree that no one really knows the answers. But we could have at least been presented with reliable/accurate facts and figures about the existing EU situation. I now know (AFTER the referendum has finished), far more about the EU, than I did before.

I'm also disappointed that the EU and the member countries seem to be blaming the UK, for Brexit. I.e. We may just be the first of a few, or even more countries that decide to leave.

It may well end up being the case, that in the upcoming future years, other (current) EU member countries also have referendums, and may also decide to leave. Potentially either ending the EU and/or dramatically changing how the EU works and its responsibilities.
I.e. No EU and/or a drastically restructured scope/functionality EU and/or an EU with many of the existing EU member countries outside of it.

I'm interested in what is going to happen in the next few years, as regards the EU. If any other significant player EU member countries also end up leaving. I think things will be far more likely to change, as regards the EU.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 05:39:49 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline zapta

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1598 on: July 04, 2016, 05:54:08 pm »
When I voted to join what was then the EEC I never voted for Political union.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feature_creep
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #1599 on: July 04, 2016, 06:19:09 pm »
Quote
because the truth simply is, nobody knows what is going to happen now.

I would take that one step further and state that not one person / organization knows what's good for us all.

Thus, however imperfectly executed, a referrendum is the (constrained) optimal solution.
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