Poll

So, what you (UK) guys think? Exit or not to exit?

YES, please get me out of there (I'm UK) [go]
41 (19.5%)
Hell no, we are one big (happy) family! (I'm UK) [stay]
42 (20%)
OMG, let them Go! [go]
63 (30%)
I love the UK, they are family! [stay]
64 (30.5%)

Total Members Voted: 208

Voting closed: July 10, 2016, 10:29:34 am

Author Topic: UK forum members, BREXIT?  (Read 353492 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline SimonD

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 92
  • Country: 00
Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #50 on: June 11, 2016, 09:33:36 am »
Everyone in Europe knows that EU = Germany and Mr. Schaeuble  ....
Whatever Germany decides is the law for the rest of Europe ...
So  ... BREXIT as soon as possible !!
 
The following users thanked this post: NivagSwerdna

Offline dannyf

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8229
  • Country: 00
Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #51 on: June 11, 2016, 10:27:35 am »
Quote
that will effectively erase its culture and creating a future giant ghetto near every city.

Multiculturalism at its best.

End of the day, the voters elected the politicians who enacted such policies.

You eat what you sow. Universally true.
================================
https://dannyelectronics.wordpress.com/
 

Offline Tandy

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 372
  • Country: gb
  • Darren Grant from Tandy, UK.
    • Tandy
Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #52 on: June 11, 2016, 11:05:06 am »
It is difficult to make an informed decision with all of the misleading nonsense being spouted by the politicians, neither side have presented a clear or credible argument.

In principle I like the idea of a European Union but have deep reservations about the way it is currently organised.

I have written (a rather long) post about some of the issues that are being discussed and my conclusions.

Public Finances
The leave campaign would have you believe that the EU costs Britain £350m a week but the real figure is apparently closer to £248m, either way it seems like a lot of money. It isn't quite that simple though as a lot of the money comes back in grants and subsidies. So I don't buy the argument that there would be a lot of extra money for our public services. My expectation is that not a lot would change in the amount of money available. The only thing that would change is that our elected government would be the ones deciding where to spend the money instead of the EU. In theory a good thing but in practice they will just waste it and probably give themselves pay rises while they are at it for being so good at wasting it. On the other hand it is very selfish of us to say we are not going to help poorer countries in Europe such as Greece because we want to keep all our money to ourselves. I don't think it is an issue that I would consider makes much influence to how I would vote.

Trade
So much has been said about trade. Yes it is convenient that when we make a sale to an EU destination that we don't have to deal with duty (tariffs) and VAT arrangements are relatively simple. But then again a majority of the products we deal with are from China or the United States so we have to pay duty on those imports and that cost gets passed on to customers anyway. So maybe in the longer term better trade agreements with the US and China may make things cheaper for us all. Short term there will be some disruption while new arrangements were sorted out. In order to sell products into Europe UK companies would still have to comply with EU rules such as CE marking and RoHS directives so it isn't as if magically there will be less red tape. The EU is struggling to negotiate a trade agreement with the US that is fair, TTIP is biased in the favour of the US and wouldn't want to be part of that. But you have to ask if a large union of countries does not have the strength to negotiate a trade agreement that  is on equal terms with the US then what chance does a little individual country like the UK. The so called special relationship is nothing more than the UK and US speaking a similar language and the US having huge influence over the UK since we borrowed so much money from the US during two world wars without which we would have been bankrupt. So again, who knows exactly what would happen but one thing is for sure people want to buy stuff and so a way will be found to make that possible. So again apart from short term problems while things are up in the air I don't see it being a long term issue either way.

Immigration
Oh please! stop reading the Daily Mail and other so called news papers. While Britain is one of the more desirable countries to come to in Europe for economic migrants not everyone wants to come here. I don't blame anyone who wants to better their life moving to a country with better economic prospects, you would do the same. But the fact is people come here to work not just to get benefits, some may come for the NHS but equally many are working minimum wage jobs that many British born people refuse to do choosing to live on benefits instead of working hard in a physically demanding or unpleasant job for very low pay. Big business wants to keep the migration flow happening because they get a fresh supply of people willing to work for next to nothing. In an ideal world the EU would work to help accelerate the economic growth of those countries so people don't have to uproot their lives in search of a better future. The biggest immigration problem however is people from outside the EU and we don't seem to have got that under control.

Expansion
This one does concern me, the push for continued expansion of the EU is largely responsible for many of the problems, Taking on countries like Greece caused them to take on regulation that they could not afford to implement and has turned what was a poor but stable economy into a basket case. The very idea of including Turkey in the EU seems like trying to build an empire not unifying a group of neighbouring countries. If we can’t stop this continued expansion then that to my mind is a reason to be out, as I think further trouble is on the horizon.

Integration
The EU is forever trying to impose greater control over member countries seemingly trying to make a United States of Europe with a federal government. There are some valuable laws that cover some very important issues. It makes a lot of sense for countries to agree on common standards so that people can travel, work and trade in other countries without being arrested for wearing the wrong clothes, following the wrong religion or having sexual preferences that don’t meet with the standards of a government. But I would rather that the EU stick to the major issues and stop messing about with trivial things. For example it might seem good that now we get cheaper mobile calls while roaming through Europe but really is that something that should be put into law? It is this kind of meddling that makes me think there are far to many bureaucrats with time on their hands on the payroll. That money could be spent on far better things like helping fix problems in countries that are struggling.

Democratic Accountability
My biggest concern about the EU is the way that there is little transparency in the law making process and the process for introducing laws is not fully democratic. The elected Euro MPs can not propose new laws, amendments or repeal of existing laws.



What I would like to see would be slimmed down EU that only deals with the significant issues of basic human rights, environmental issues and trade etc. Not trivial things like how much it costs to make a call or how orange an orange needs to be to be sold as an orange. I would like to see this done in a proper democratic way so that the member countries can propose laws and amendments to the existing ones and attempt to convince the other countries to support proposals based on merit. I would also like to see a halt to further expansion of the EU or at the very least a managed expansion programme where new countries are associate members while the rest of the EU helps to bring the new members economy in-line with the standards of the rest of the union to prevent the mass exodus from new countries. It is not in the interests of any new country to loose significant numbers of their population or for other countries to have to deal with the sudden influx of new people requiring somewhere to live.

The problem is as far as I can see this can not happen with the EU as it is now, the current leadership are using for ever more expansion and integration and the member countries have very little say in the direction of the EU. The UK has never really been fully behind the EU project, seemingly being on the opposition more often than not for anything the EU is doing so I wonder why we are part of it in the first place. While Britain is probably the most vocal about its opposition to the EU we are far from the only country with reservations and if we did leave I think it would start a bit of a chain reaction with some other countries watching with interest and following suit if it worked out for Britain.

Unfortunately I think it would take a big event like a country leaving the EU to actually make them stop and review where they are going with it. What bureaucrats fail to realise is that as much as we would like everything to fit into simple clearly defined categories, life isn’t like that, people don’t like to feel like they are being told what to do paying more taxes for the privilege.
The right balance has to be found and at the moment I think the EU is trying to hard to gain power. So as the reforms that I would like to see happen are seemingly impossible while we are in the EU I think leaving would be the better option. It would have some short term consequences no doubt as everything is thrown into uncertainty but it is probably the action that needs to be taken for the long term benefit of everyone to stop the EU forcing their laws onto countries who never elected the officials.
For more info on Tandy try these links Tandy History EEVBlog Thread & Official Tandy Website
 
The following users thanked this post: TheWelly888

Offline dannyf

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8229
  • Country: 00
Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #53 on: June 11, 2016, 11:10:59 am »
Quote
Unfortunately I think it would take a big event like a country leaving the EU to actually make them stop and review where they are going with it.

that, I think, is the biggest contribution the leave campaign will make to the EU, regardless of the outcome of the votes.

Because of it, everyone benefits.
================================
https://dannyelectronics.wordpress.com/
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 20150
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #54 on: June 11, 2016, 11:25:17 am »
@Tandy: on one hand you say the EU should be about making trade easier but on the other hand you say the EU shouldn't meddle with trade (phone costs, oranges, etc). Creating a level playing field when it comes to trade requires setting detailed rules for companies.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Tandy

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 372
  • Country: gb
  • Darren Grant from Tandy, UK.
    • Tandy
Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #55 on: June 11, 2016, 12:04:29 pm »
@Tandy: on one hand you say the EU should be about making trade easier but on the other hand you say the EU shouldn't meddle with trade (phone costs, oranges, etc). Creating a level playing field when it comes to trade requires setting detailed rules for companies.
Making trade easier by avoiding artificial barriers such as tariffs, as a consumer I like that I can buy something from a company in France or Germany without getting import charges that i would get if I bought something from Australia or the United States. I see the setting of price caps on call charges being meddling in the market.
For more info on Tandy try these links Tandy History EEVBlog Thread & Official Tandy Website
 

Offline zapta

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6004
  • Country: us
Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #56 on: June 11, 2016, 12:45:04 pm »
@Tandy: on one hand you say the EU should be about making trade easier but on the other hand you say the EU shouldn't meddle with trade (phone costs, oranges, etc). Creating a level playing field when it comes to trade requires setting detailed rules for companies.
Free trade is not an all or nothing thing. At minimum you can just reduce import taxes.

The EU with its utopian feature creep made the ex empire a colony.
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline grumpydoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2761
  • Country: gb
Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #57 on: June 11, 2016, 01:09:03 pm »
Haven't had time to read the whole of your post yet.

Trade
But then again a majority of the products we deal with are from China or the United States so we have to pay duty on those imports and that cost gets passed on to customers anyway.
The single largest trading partner for exports is the US with about 13% of our total. China comes quite far down the list. The EU represents just under 50% of our overall export trade although that figure is falling.

China 3rd or 4th largest partner where imports are concerned but, overall a bit over half of our imports come from the EU.

Source: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/521888/OTS_Release_0316.pdf

The value of goods "exported"1 to the UK from the EU is about 16% of the total value of EU exported goods - while we are the biggest single trading partner some 5/6ths of EU trade goes elsewhere.

So, in percentage terms we need the EU rather more than they need us. Of course trade would not stop overnight but the potential to damage the GB economy is fairly large and it does not take much of a fall in the UK GDP to wipe out any "saving" we get from not having to pay into the EU.

1] Technically it is not an export because of the single market.
 

Offline dannyf

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8229
  • Country: 00
Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #58 on: June 11, 2016, 01:33:50 pm »
Quote
as a consumer I like that I can buy something from a company in France or Germany without getting import charges that i would get if I bought something from Australia or the United States.

that benefit doesn't come without its own externalities.

Each one of us is a consumer and a producer (to other consumers). Free trade means not just you can buy something cheap (exposing local producers to competition from overseas), but also others can buy things you produce cheap (exposing you as a producer to competition from overseas).

In the end, certain segments of the population tend to get hurt more than benefiting from free trade, and those people happen to be ones that can least sustain adversity.

Thus the rise of poverty and shrinking (lower-)middle class.
================================
https://dannyelectronics.wordpress.com/
 

Offline Marco

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4935
  • Country: nl
Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #59 on: June 11, 2016, 02:17:49 pm »
Oh please! stop reading the Daily Mail and other so called news papers.

How about Klaus Schwab? Who thinks it's possible to get a refugee stream of 1 Billion to move north?

Quote
The biggest immigration problem however is people from outside the EU and we don't seem to have got that under control.

It's impossible to get under control within our allowed parameters. Human rights law and the Geneva convention on refugees are nooses which we aren't allowed to remove. Yet we will have to to survive, it will be easier with a smaller government.
 

Offline madires

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5520
  • Country: de
  • A qualified hobbyist ;)
Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #60 on: June 11, 2016, 02:44:56 pm »
The EU with its utopian feature creep made the ex empire a colony.

That's a common prejudice and misconception. The UK has some special deals and discounts. For example, the Pro BREXITs are telling everyone how much the EU costs but forget to substract the discounts and the subsidies. Beware of propaganda!
 

Offline continuo

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 303
  • Country: de
Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #61 on: June 11, 2016, 02:50:22 pm »
ACHTUNG! STAY!

(Or the UK won't be eligible for future scope months because of insignificance)   :popcorn:
 
The following users thanked this post: SteveyG

Offline R_Gtx

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 52
  • Country: gb
Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #62 on: June 11, 2016, 03:01:52 pm »
BUT if we want access to the common market we are likely to have to accept free movement of labour as well
That's a myth.  However unfortunately we don't have any negotiating power until we leave so it's pointless to predict the deal until we have some power back. 
Really? UK screws EU every now and then. Like new EU directive, fuck it because we don't like it, all other countries still need to accept it which puts them in disadvantage. There are so many things UK refused to accept or made EU to accept special preferences for UK, that you will be tired to count. So I really doubt that EU exploits UK, IMO it is completely other way. But if UK exits, guess it will be worse for all, both UK and the rest of EU, at least in near future.

Official EU figures:

Total EU spending in Latvia – € 1.062 billion                                   Total EU spending in the UK: € 6.985 billion
Total Latvian contribution to the EU budget – € 0.244 billion          Total UK contribution to the EU budget: € 11.342 billion

So, for Latvians, it is a case of bending over and doing as your told, something you've been doing since the Soviet occupation of 1940. Whilst for Britons, the case is best stated by quoting from "Rule, Brittania":

Quote
....
Britannia rule the waves.
Britons never, never, never shall be slaves.
 

Offline bookaboo

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 623
  • Country: ie
Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #63 on: June 11, 2016, 03:04:32 pm »
I live and work in the UK and with the caveat that I have not done in depth analysis I'm broadly in favour of staying in.
The main (maybe only) argument for leaving is the "benefit tourism" problem, however if that's what concerns people why not just fix the benefits system to give incentives work instead of subsidies for laziness? Of course that wont happen as all politicians need the votes of those that abuse that same system.
 

Offline zapta

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6004
  • Country: us
Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #64 on: June 11, 2016, 03:10:12 pm »
The EU with its utopian feature creep made the ex empire a colony.

That's a common prejudice and misconception. The UK has some special deals and discounts. For example, the Pro BREXITs are telling everyone how much the EU costs but forget to substract the discounts and the subsidies. Beware of propaganda!

I was not referring to money.

Frankly, I am surprised how much the anti Brexit argument are focused on economic benefits, ignoring aspects such as sovereignty, culture, history, tradition and values, as if the UK is merely a corporation whose main goal is to maximize it's profits.
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 12421
  • Country: lv
Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #65 on: June 11, 2016, 03:10:20 pm »
Total EU spending in Latvia – € 1.062 billion                                   Total EU spending in the UK: € 6.985 billion
Total Latvian contribution to the EU budget – € 0.244 billion          Total UK contribution to the EU budget: € 11.342 billion
The thing is, barely any of that money stays in Latvia and most of it goes back the same way how it came in.
 

Offline madires

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5520
  • Country: de
  • A qualified hobbyist ;)
Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #66 on: June 11, 2016, 03:31:50 pm »
I was not referring to money.

Frankly, I am surprised how much the anti Brexit argument are focused on economic benefits, ignoring aspects such as sovereignty, culture, history, tradition and values, as if the UK is merely a corporation whose main goal is to maximize it's profits.

Don't have all EU countries their own culture and history? Basically it boils down to money and political power when making multilateral treaties.
 

Offline dannyf

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8229
  • Country: 00
Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #67 on: June 11, 2016, 03:37:32 pm »
Quote
The main (maybe only) argument for leaving is the "benefit tourism" problem

really?

================================
https://dannyelectronics.wordpress.com/
 

Offline R_Gtx

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 52
  • Country: gb
Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #68 on: June 11, 2016, 04:18:48 pm »
Quote
Did you ever care to look at the rate at which the population in the EU will be shrinking? Those refugees are very necessary to replenish the workforce! In the upcoming decades we'll be needing a lot more extra people.
Replenishing the population is needed, yes, but I doubt that the ONLY possible way is to import a bunch of culturally incompatible people with a mentality stuck a few centuries in the past. Are you quite sure that that's the only way?

I mean, somehow Europe has managed to NOT have a population decline in the past without resorting to steps that will effectively erase its culture and creating a future giant ghetto near every city. Maybe something else would work?

For many years I was ambivalent towards the EU, until four years ago I read http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18519395. The referendum can't come soon enough.
 

Offline rolycat

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1090
  • Country: gb
Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #69 on: June 11, 2016, 04:35:22 pm »
The UK has some special deals and discounts. For example, the Pro BREXITs are telling everyone how much the EU costs but forget to substract the discounts and the subsidies.
I do tend to be suspicious of entities which take large chunks of my money and then expect me to be grateful when dribbles of it are returned in the guise of 'deals', 'discounts' and 'subsidies'.

Quote
Beware of propaganda!
Excellent advice. Unfortunately distortion, exaggeration and alarmist propaganda seem to be endemic on both sides of the campaign. Actual facts are hard to come by.
 

Offline woodchips

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 530
  • Country: gb
Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #70 on: June 11, 2016, 05:08:20 pm »
Some more general points to ponder.

Am I the only small manufacturer to be put out of business by the WEEE directive? That there was never a de minimus level of produce weight below which it didn't apply.

Am I the only one to wonder about RoHS where my 50g of lead in my solder has to be banned? But the shooting fraternity can continue blasting lead shot around the countryside willy nilly?

What I find really frightening is the appearance of a complete lack of skill, experience, expertise etc within the EU. Look at the Euro, the EU were told it wouldn't work but ignored. What about the overcatch fisheries policy of throwing it back in the sea? What are the odds on a black swan (see the book by Nasim Nicholas Talib) moment, a devastating unforseen disaster created by people, like the 2008 crash, like the 2010 Euro crisis. I rather think that we will be bailing out the rest of Europe after one of these.

Is the 24th June much like 1st September 1939, do we REALLY have to save Europe, again?

These points are for discussion, I am thinking deeply about the choice, other people's ideas and experiences are important.



 
The following users thanked this post: NivagSwerdna

Offline dannyf

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8229
  • Country: 00
Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #71 on: June 11, 2016, 05:24:29 pm »
Quote
Some more general points to ponder.

I'm a big believer of EU: I think strategically speaking, the old Europe cannot compete with the US, Russia or China. A unified market and intensified competition tend to drive productivity and enhance welfare for all member countries over the long run.

However, that's built on two assumptions that are violently violated during the implementation:

1) EU is an economic union, not a political / sovereign union. That means individual member countries should retain its sovereignty and has a say on all other aspects of its inner workings.

2) member countries are highly similar and share common goals.

Essentially EU should have been implemented as the United States pre-19th century. Instead, they implemented a 20th century United States. Its east-ward expansion was purely political and suicidal, and driven by people who's still living in the 1970s.
================================
https://dannyelectronics.wordpress.com/
 

Offline grumpydoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2761
  • Country: gb
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 20150
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #73 on: June 11, 2016, 06:56:08 pm »
Frankly, I am surprised how much the anti Brexit argument are focused on economic benefits, ignoring aspects such as sovereignty, culture, history, tradition and values,
Culture, history, values, etc change rapidly so there is little use in preserving those. A country is nothing more than a piece of land and the people in it listening to a centralised government. Maybe you feel connected to your fellow countrymen but that is all made up to keep you quiet. The 'us-them' thinking pattern is a very easy way to control people.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline zapta

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6004
  • Country: us
Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #74 on: June 11, 2016, 07:04:10 pm »
Frankly, I am surprised how much the anti Brexit argument are focused on economic benefits, ignoring aspects such as sovereignty, culture, history, tradition and values,
Culture, history, values, etc change rapidly so there is little use in preserving those. A country is nothing more than a piece of land and the people in it listening to a centralised government. Maybe you feel connected to your fellow countrymen but that is all made up to keep you quiet. The 'us-them' thinking pattern is a very easy way to control people.
I see your point, the UK and Pakistan are basically the same thing, if not now than very soon. :)

Anyway, good luck with the multiculturalism.
Drain the swamp.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf