UK forum members, BREXIT?

[dannyf]

Any citizens who try to impose any other laws are themselves - breaking the law.

Breaking the law isn't always a bad thing. Slavery was once the law of the lands; not giving women the right to vote was once the law of the lands; discrimination of all sorts was the law of the lands; etc.

The fact that someone isn't breaking the law by and of itself means nothing in terms of whether the actions are justified. Civilization advances in part by breaking old laws and establishing new laws.

[dannyf]

there are quite a few 'leave' voters who have changed their minds

I'm sure you can say that about some "remain" voters somewhere.

[System Error Message]

The UK is not under sharia law and i would disagree if britain tried to impose sharia law in any part of it.

For a Sunni this is essentially apostasy.

Sharia law is man made law it isnt mentioned in the Quran that all humans have to follow it. It was used as a guideline during the medievel times. But as i said this isnt the thread to discuss about this. If you want start a new thread or PM if  you wish to debate and i can show you some logic. Im not a vulcan but the media (including private ones) all love word and scene play. Using a bit of logic you can spot a lie. Notice the kind of music used on conspiracy videos about illuminati, the devil and such vs say a music used in a history channel documentary?

Im not a religious person and i think humans are unappreciative and destroy any religion that is given to them. Thats just my opinion though.

I also think even the muslims arent following their own religion so its the same globally. So dont think of this on a religious scale, think it on a racist scale instead. These "muslims" that colonise other countries, where are they from mostly? Is it a bad part of the world full of poverty and wars like africa? Lots of crime lords from there like mexico and africa? What about the chinese that are all around us now? Remember australia's panda ads for the chinese about what not to do in public? China uncensored? Even in the US in the south the christians are hard on following their religion that they would pelt you with stones if you were too public about some things in their area but in other areas of the US no one cares about what you do or are even if they are christians as long as you dont kill or injure anyone.
Now lets get back on track with the topic.

[dannyf]

Sharia law is man made law

So is the English law,

So dont think of this on a religious scale, think it on a racist scale instead.

How did you make that connection?

[Marco]

Sharia law is man made law it isnt mentioned in the Quran that all humans have to follow it.

I can steer this back on topic quite easily. The current mayer of London frequents a Deobandi mosque. What do you think the average visitor of that mosque thinks about your above statement?

Quranism, essentially what you did above, Ahmaddiya and even the Gulen movement are relatively compatible with secular government ... but they are tiny compared to say Deobandi, Salafi/Wahabi, Muslim Brotherhood and Tablighi Jamaat. Unlike those movements they are without a doubt also not Sunni.

[System Error Message]

Because the same races who migrate to other muslim countries also cause trouble there despite the existance of sharia law or other laws and rules. Its more to do with statistics and the reason why people migrate. I would also say other people are jealous so they cause trouble thinking they deserve it rather than you.

Rather what should be done is allow the muslims to be governed by sharia law if they choose so as long as it doesnt conflict with national laws.

[dannyf]

Because the same races who migrate to other muslim countries also cause trouble there despite the existance of sharia law

I'm sure there are trouble makers wherever and in every race. But to a causual observers like me, muslim countries tend to be overwhelmingly muslim, unless muslim are the minority. Look at the miseries of non-muslims in Muslim countries vs. Muslims in non-Muslim countries.

Rather what should be done is allow the muslims to be governed by sharia law if they choose so as long as it doesnt conflict with national laws.

It depends on what you mean. Let's say in your town, if the people there voted to impose sharia law so long it doesn't conflict with national laws, you would be OK? Does that mean you have to follow sharia law if the national law is silent on a matter? or you have to follow sharia law if the national law doesn't expressly prohibit it? or ....

the devil is in the details.

[Buriedcode]

Sharia law is man made law it isnt mentioned in the Quran that all humans have to follow it.

I can steer this back on topic quite easily. The current mayer of London frequents a Deobandi mosque. What do you think the average visitor of that mosque thinks about your above statement?

I think when the King of Jordan and 200 Islamic scholars were defining who should be called Muslims in the Amman message, they were clearly not talking about you.

[rant]
ffs I guess I set the ball rolling.... this topic isn't about religion, but if you guys insist.... you cannot take the beliefs of a handful of people and claim that those stand far a majority.  There are as many interpretations of a religion as there are followers - people pick and choose which parts that justify what they were going to do, or think anyway.  You're making an assumption about what visitors to that particular mosque think, here's a clue: unless you have asked every single one - you don't know.  The fact those lads on the streets allegedly trying to enforce a set of laws they believe in is meaningless with regards to religion, by doing that you're implying that their views are shared by a far greater number of people.

And dannyf, whilst I'm sure there are 'revolutions' somewhere, the idea of breaking the law to change the law these days, in *this* country, is at best, antiquated.  Plenty of people still break the law for their belief's, like animal rights activists and they do so not for the greater good, but because they want something to fight for, to be seen to be making a difference, whilst simultaneously enjoying the safety of a modern welfare state with all its conveniences. Walk on wallstreet was a similar affair - a few dedicated well meaning individuals amongst many 'I'm important look at me! I hate capitalism but still want to keep my iphone and facebook even though they were both fruits of such a regime'. [/rant]

Edit: after 10 mintues that looks far too ranty and off-topic.. I wold delete but then I'll just look like I've said something really outlandish

[dannyf]

the idea of breaking the law to change the law these days, in *this* country, is at best, antiquated.

What's wrong being antiquated? The universe is pretty antiquated, 10s of billions of years antiquated; civilization is antiquated; Shakespeare and tons of great books are antiquated; ........

Should we ban them all?

[rolycat]

the idea of breaking the law to change the law these days, in *this* country, is at best, antiquated.

What's wrong being antiquated? The universe is pretty antiquated, 10s of billions of years antiquated; civilization is antiquated; Shakespeare and tons of great books are antiquated; ........

Should we ban them all?

You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means 

[System Error Message]

to be clear what i mean if a muslim wishes to be governed by sharia law than let him. So lets say in a town of non muslims and muslims if a non muslim steals just apply the usual national punishment. If a muslim who chooses to be under sharia law steals than chop off his hand. This is the kind of setup used in some muslim countries.

What im saying is dont look at these screwed up countries, look at south east asia for example as they are less screwed up. They have oil there too.

[Buriedcode]

the idea of breaking the law to change the law these days, in *this* country, is at best, antiquated.

What's wrong being antiquated? The universe is pretty antiquated, 10s of billions of years antiquated; civilization is antiquated; Shakespeare and tons of great books are antiquated; ........

Should we ban them all?

Not at all, but using historical examples of policy change in the context of the present is the sort of thinking that tends to stifle progress.  And by progress I mean the almost constant modifications made to law, human rights, and equality.  It's almost the same thinking as those who said 'I want Britain to be like it was when I grew up', when that clearly will never happen. I do see your point, but mine was that a handful of citizens (we're talking 3-4) trying to enforce what *they* believe should be the law - telling women to completely cover up and refrain from alcohol - using violence is hardly the same as the abolition of slavery, or the suffragettes, which was for the benefit of many.  The fact they were religious is, well meaningless, it was *their* opinion, not representing a large proportion of society.

Anyways, yes, Brexit.  I hate that word.  Gonna be an interesting few years and whilst I do instinctively have th fear of uncertainty, I'm not sure *that* much will change. Especially as it'll be a somewhat slow process and so will appear to be less of a change.

[Marco]

you cannot take the beliefs of a handful of people and claim that those stand far a majority.  There are as many interpretations of a religion as there are followers

But I can take them calling themselves Sunni at face value and expect them to mostly agree with Bukhari on the validity of Hadith and to mostly follow one of the four madhhab.

here's a clue: unless you have asked every single one - you don't know.

I do know the opinion of its Imam on Ahmadis. There have been quite a few surveys of British Muslims opinions in general, most not very nice.

Here is a Salafi laying out the truth for you in Norway, he's not interested in hiding it because he believes his correctness and victory is already divinely assured. Listen and learn.

[MT]

Will be interesting to see whom the separatists now will blame for their own following f*ckups. The EU was an easy target to blame for all and everything. Now they're in need to find new culprits 

That's an easy answer actually. They will still blame the EU. I can say on our own example in Latvia, 25 years out of Soviet union and now in EU.
Still blaming Russia for every internal problem to happen  . Also, memory of the voter is no longer than 1 year in average IMO.

And the Russians blame all their problems on the west! So there goes your easy example!

[dannyf]

I do see your point, but mine was that a handful of citizens (we're talking 3-4) trying to enforce what *they* believe should be the law - telling women to completely cover up and refrain from alcohol - using violence is hardly the same as the abolition of slavery, or the suffragettes, which was for the benefit of many.

I'm still not understanding you.

Say one day the majority of your town people decided it is OK to enforce the sharia law, is it OK?

What if the majority of Brits one day decided to enforce the sharia law, is it OK then?

What if one day the majority of Brits wants to amend the national law to be consistent with sharia law, is it OK then?

what if one day the majority decides to enforce slavery to benefit many? ....

There is no more to a people than what the collective votes of those people?

The left grossly underestimated the anger among the public. The votes aren't even remotely about economy, nor immigration (only superficially so). The vote is existential. It is about what the Brits think being Brits means.

[System Error Message]

you cannot take the beliefs of a handful of people and claim that those stand far a majority.  There are as many interpretations of a religion as there are followers

But I can take them calling themselves Sunni at face value and expect them to mostly agree with Bukhari on the validity of Hadith and to mostly follow one of the four madhhab.

here's a clue: unless you have asked every single one - you don't know.

I do know the opinion of its Imam on Ahmadis. There have been quite a few surveys of British Muslims opinions in general, most not very nice.

Here is a Salafi laying out the truth for you in Norway, he's not interested in hiding it because he believes his correctness and victory is already divinely assured. Listen and learn.

Ive seen this video before and the first thing is that annoying music, it makes this seem like one of those conspiracy videos.
The other thing is that those imams or speakers are entirely wrong. Christianity and Judaism are not false. The correct description used in the Quran was that the people strayed but that does not make the religion itself false hence the Quran refers to followers of those 2 religions as followers of the book. It doesnt say they are wrong.
One of the speakers wants the death penalty for gays. The official punishment for gays in islam is imprisonment, not death so he is going too far.
i can quote more and as i said there is a clear difference between a moderate and extremist. These guys are just trying to get the muslims in EU to think that they're all the same that they should follow the barbaric ways of the arabs who were barbaric even before islam came to them and still were even after.

[Kjelt]

So this is what you voted on, uuuuh sorry this was a mistake!    scam? con-artist? fraud? no worse a wannebe politician .
http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/farage-says-350million-nhs-pledge-was-a-mistake-5963794/

[rstofer]

But anyways, back on topic - I see from the Telegraph that there are quite a few 'leave' voters who have changed their minds    This is why for every referendum people should be made to sit quietly, in an empty room, for 10 minutes before deciding on their vote.

But are there a million of them?  If not, voters' remorse (or just playing up to the media) doesn't change anything.
It is said that the market is always right.  Everything is known and priced in.  In my view, the voters are always right.  Voting gives them a chance to tell the politicians what they think and sometimes the politicians don't want to hear it.  You see the same thing in the US right now.  The media is in complete denial over the issues that led to Trump becoming the Republican candidate.  Particularly in the Washington Post, the intelligentsia are beside themselves over the ignorant electorate.  They haven't seen anything yet!  They just don't get it!  People are pissed off about the direction our country is going.  Just like the UK!

It'll be interesting how this plays out over the next few years.

[System Error Message]

The main question is where did the £350m come from? Seems like they used the same tactic with the scots and it worked. So the residents of the UK seem to pick or believe anyone who gives money.

[rstofer]

So this is what you voted on, uuuuh sorry this was a mistake!    scam? con-artist? fraud? no worse a wannebe politician .
http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/farage-says-350million-nhs-pledge-was-a-mistake-5963794/

I doubt that anybody thought that $350M per week would actually go to NHS.  Nobody alive believes anything that politicians say (if they have even a lick of sense) and, although impossible, even fewer believe statisticians.  I suspect that most of the Leave group would be happy to just not send money offshore, regardless of where it winds up.

Both sides lied, nobody is clean in this deal, but the voters have spoken.  Now it's time to get to work on the people's wishes.

[Nauris]

May I use the international reach of the EEVblog forum to pass this message to my dear continental cousins:

Join us!  Force your domestic politicians to listen to the will of your people.  Free your great and proud nations from the hideous, arrogant, condescending, inefficient, autocratic bureaucracy that is the EU.

The EU simply cannot continue as it is.  As the EU is also resolutely against any kind of serious reform, the only way forward for prosperity of our nations and people is for the EU to disband.

I hope that when I am an old man, I will be boring the kids with stories of how my vote played its part in the beginning of the end of "that strange EU thing they tried back in your day Grandad".

I reckon the Dutch, Danes, and Swedes are the most likely to go next.

 

Exactly!
I bet that in ten years time Germany and Turkey are the only ones remaining in the EU.

[System Error Message]

you havent met people with low IQ. No matter the facts you show with the logic they still wont believe you and go for the irrational reasons or options.

[pelule]

I bet that in ten years time Germany and Turkey are the only ones remaining in the EU.

Don't forget Scottland and Russia.
Voting done - Good by UK - Welcome back Great Britain.

[dannyf]

The official punishment for gays in islam is imprisonment, not death so he is going too far.

wow!

i can quote more and as i said there is a clear difference between a moderate and extremist.

So the moderate wants to jail gays and the extremist wants to kill them? that's the "clear" difference?

this reminds me of the saying that the islamic extremists want to kill you and the islamic moderates want the islamic extremists to kill you. What a clear difference.

[Delta]

Frankly I think this whole result is due to simple bigotry whether amongst the educated or not...

Frankly, I think you are incredibly arrogant and condescending.  The view that you epitomise is the reason why so many  people feel frustrated with and alienated from our professional politicians.