UK forum members, BREXIT?

[SteveyG]

Now that the dust is beginning to settle.

I think this EXIT/brexit was sort of forced (regardless if you supported leave or remain), because of the way that the EU, has a SOLID/inflexible structure/functionality to it. So that attempts to modify/moderate its functionality, to make people (especially in the UK, but probably in other member states), continue to be happy with it. Was in real terms, NOT possible.

Presumably if it had been modifiable, and allowed some changes. The Leave and Remain camps, could have been made happy with the new EU, and continued with it.

The relative lack of voting (within the EU system, by the EU population) and its (apparent) extreme reluctance to change or compromise, has probably been a major factor in its demise (at least as regards the UK).

The Leave camp, had two choices. Leave or put up with a lack of response to their requirements.

Things have changed over the years, and we (UK/EU/World) are facing fresh challenges, which were probably NOT known about, in the 1970's, when the EEC came about.

If the EU was doing a good job, >85% of the UK, should have voted to remain. So it being about 52% leave, 48% remain, was a poor showing by the EU, anyway.

I wonder how many of the 48% (approx) remain camp, also wanted improvements to the EU, as well. But were too worried about what would happen if we left it.

As an individual, I'm NOT 100% sure, if leave or remain, was the best/right thing. Who knows what might happen in the future, which could have a big bearing on the best solution.

As with most people, I'm not that sure of the full range of things that the EU does. In some respects, I think it was an overly complicated decision, for people to have to make. Yes, we should all be getting votes. But on the other hand, most of us may not know enough about it, to make the correct/informed decision.

If other countries of the EU, also end up having referendums, then things could get interesting, as time goes on.

I think you're giving the public too much credit. It seems people didn't know what they were voting for or that their vote even counted if you go by some of the videos of interviewers talking to randomers on the street. It's nuts to think the people voting for Big Brother or I'm A Celebrity are the ones deciding on such an important matter. 

[nctnico]

Might there be changes that address enough issues for the UK to reconsider?

You can also argue that the UK brought it on theirselves. The UK has been cherry picking options instead of getting the full package. The likely problem is that in order for the EU to work for a country it needs to get the full package (including the euro).

[wraper]

Almost all the reaction to the result of BREXIT that I have seen is based on the premise that it is an immutable fact that the UK will be leaving the EU.

Is it not something that may not happen - or be indeterminately delayed?

Cameron and Boris Johnson said there is no need to hurry, we can start to think about it sometime. On the other hand EU reply was certain - as you leave, do it asap, don't keep the whole continent in uncertainty.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/24/eu-referendum-brexit-live-europe-leave-remain-britain

[onesixright]

Can somebody explain why they choose a simple majority as (½ + 1) to seal the deal? 

For some things that sounds right, but i would think that from a democratic perspective this is way to simple when thinks have a huge impact? Not uncommon that you need a ? majority for these things?

Also people voting that are passed, lets say 70, have a equal say in something that the younger generation needs to live with?

[firewalker]

EU is now twisting Cameron's arm really hard for not resigning asap...

Alexander.

[rolycat]

It seems people didn't know what they were voting for or that their vote even counted if you go by some of the videos of interviewers talking to randomers on the street. It's nuts to think the people voting for Big Brother or I'm A Celebrity are the ones deciding on such an important matter. 

Which is why we usually pay politicians to make our decisions for us. They are supposed to make the right choice for the country even if it is unpopular.

Unfortunately politicians and bureaucrats all over Europe have been making unpopular choices for a long time. If every EU country had held a similar referendum, a number of them would probably have had a similar outcome - the population of France is reportedly more Eurosceptic than that of the UK.

[FreddyVictor]

According to Yougov, 75% in age of 18–24 vote remain while 59% over 65 vote for leave! So now grand children are mighty pissed!

Actually a very few people on my FB feed have seriously been suggesting that older people should not have been allowed to vote. At that stage, I remind them of the similarity to denying votes to women, or apartheid, and the irony of them supposedly supporting EU inclusivity and egalitarianism.

was a BBC R4 program late last night with 'younger people' on a similar theme basically claiming it "wasn't fair" older people deciding their future ... 

they're fully onboard with the EU's idea of 'democracy' then !

[dannyf]

"Also people voting that are passed, lets say 70, have a equal say in something that the younger generation needs to live with?"

How about the unborn? They have far more to loss than today's young.

Or the rich?

Or people who live in areas more connected to the EU?

Or people who work in the EU?

Or people who's livelihood depends on the EU?


Should they get more votes than you do?

[Alex Nikitin]

was a BBC R4 program late last night with 'younger people' on a similar theme basically claiming it "wasn't fair" older people deciding their future ... 

they're fully onboard with the EU's idea of 'democracy' then !

What's worse those young people state "a great uncertainty" as the reason against leaving EU. Which is in my book an old fart's mentality. I think the exit will do a lot of good for that generation  . Hopefully it is not too late.

Cheers

Alex

[Marco]

I wonder if the Greeks would agree. They have both more to gain and more to lose from leaving the eurozone.

If the Dublin accords are re-instituted it will be hard for them to stay. The only reason politicians and the media can close their eyes to the reality that the current asylum system and the current human rights laws are suicidal is because it's happening in slow motion.

If Greece can't pass off its refugees the humanitarian facade it's trying to put on now will disappear quickly. It would either have to quickly look for the most humane realistic solutions (which realistically won't be nearly humane enough for the EU human rights court) or let Golden dawn take over ... at which point there will be fast and inhumane solutions.

[doobedoobedo]

But from way over here it seems there is a growing mistrust of the political class (that includes Australia). I've even heard commentary that Scotland wants to revist leaving the EU (ie stay) and splitting from the UK and Ireland wants to as well and even combining with Northern Ireland. Does anyone really know what's going on?

The anti-democratic, dictatorial nature of the EU really didn't help their cause, they were also something our own politicians could hide behind to avoid accountability.

Regarding Northern Ireland. It's complicated. http://www.history.co.uk/shows/soldiers-stories/articles/northern-ireland-conflict probably best not to throw stones at that hornet's nest to try and make some small political point.

[firewalker]

If the Dublin accords are re-instituted...

It will be more or less an act of war.

Greece will be left with two options.

Take military action against refuges and immigrants. It will trigger other countries to "punish" Greece.

Provide safe passage to the refuges to other countries. Because refuges and immigrants doesn;t want to stay in Greece. It will trigger other countries to "punish" Greece for not killing refuges and immigrants.

Alexander.

[XynxNet]

The UK has been cherry picking options instead of getting the full package. The likely problem is that in order for the EU to work for a country it needs to get the full package (including the euro).

I agree with that. Most of EU's problems stem from lack of tighter integration, a thing britain vetoed for years.

Just look at the greek situation. It is really sad, that such a relativ insignificant dept ruins a country because EU is not integrated enough to just pay it of and institute changes which solve the underlying problems in a way that's beneficial for the greek people.

Hopefully EU will now move on to a more effectiv and more integrated union.

As far as britain is concerned, I hope for a smooth transition. They are still our neighbour. We still want to trade with them. They are still our friends. Conditions might be a bit harder, but EU trades successfully with a lot of non-members. I just hope that britain can make some of the advantages/things work out, which they were promised with the brexit.

[Alex Nikitin]

The UK has been cherry picking options instead of getting the full package. The likely problem is that in order for the EU to work for a country it needs to get the full package (including the euro).

I agree with that. Most of EU's problems stem from lack of tighter integration, a thing britain vetoed for years.

Just look at the greek situation. It is really sad, that such a relativ insignificant dept ruins a country because EU is not integrated enough to just pay it of and institute changes which solve the underlying problems in a way that's beneficial for the greek people.

Hopefully EU will now move on to a more effectiv and more integrated union.

That is exactly why the UK is out of this crap - hopefully for good.

Cheers

Alex

[Marco]

Take military action against refuges and immigrants.

You'll need the military to deal with the inevitable people who think rioting will bring them to the land of milk and honey, but eventually they will accept reality. It's preferable to a bullet in the head. After that you do what most countries less burdened by human rights laws do, put them in camps until they are ready to go back.

Because refuges and immigrants doesn;t want to stay in Greece.

Beggars can't be choosers.

We can't save the ME and Africa through migration, it's utterly impossible from a numbers perspective. If we keep trying then at some point white flight will kick in on a massive scale and European economy and agricultural output will collapse, we'll be a help to no one at that point. They will have to deal with their problems, the greatest of which is their lack of renewable water resources per capita (global warming is a drop in the overpopulated ocean of causes for that).

[firewalker]

Just look at the greek situation. It is really sad, that such a relativ insignificant dept ruins a country because EU is not integrated enough to just pay it of and institute changes which solve the underlying problems in a way that's beneficial for the greek people.

No, paying for it, is the wrong thing (at least the way it is implemented now). You are giving us money to pay back a loan you gave us. It is madness. And the you will give us money to pay back the money you gave us to pay a loan you gave us...

Greece was forced not to cut expenses from military equipment. Because it would mean that German companies would loose money. EU is giving us money to buy weapons from EU countries! On the other hand cuts were made to the health care system and education.

Alexander.

[firewalker]

After that you do what most countries less burdened by human rights laws do, put them in camps until they are ready to go back.

I don;t think you understand how small Greece is.


The solution is one and only. Stop starting wars to foreign countries.

[XynxNet]

Just look at the greek situation. It is really sad, that such a relativ insignificant dept ruins a country because EU is not integrated enough to just pay it of and institute changes which solve the underlying problems in a way that's beneficial for the greek people.

No, paying for it, is the wrong thing (at least the way it is implemented now). You are giving us money to pay back a loan you gave us. It is madness. And the you will give us money to pay back the money you gave us to pay a loan you gave us...

Greece was forced not to cut expenses from military equipment. Because it would mean that German companies would loose money. EU is giving us money to buy weapons from EU countries! On the other hand cuts were made to the health care system and education.

Alexander.

Yes that's the problem with lack of integration. EU should focus on equalising living standards in all countries and well being of all member people.

[Marco]

The solution is one and only. Stop starting wars to foreign countries.

It doesn't matter any more, undocumented migrants make up much of the flow ... and despite the pretense that we can repatriate them, they way we are now we can't.

This flow will never stop until we make fundamental changes in how we treat them, overpopulation and aquifer depletion will ensure it. Syria was always heading to disaster one way or another, this just happened to be the way it went down.

PS. the Euro was a mistake, taking away the ability of the printing press from governments created a massive amount of moral hazard and if there is one thing the financial industry can be counted upon is having no morals ... so it simply created a massive hazard. Printing presses and inflation are necessary to keep both government borrowers and lenders honest.

[woodchips]

So, vote taken, result known, what now?

May for PM, clever, a woman, thinks.
Gove for negotiations, clever, takes hard decisions.
Johnson for roving ambasador to tell the rest of the world why we did it and what we do now.

Several other clever MPs for other jobs, and that includes Labour, Lib Dem etc.

I think we need to start the Article 50 now. Simple questions to the EU, such as are you going to let us have tarrif free access to the single market? Yes, then you have likewise to the UK, no, then you are charged the same tarrifs as you charge us. Take all of 10 minutes to decide. Most other points are similar. No payments in, no money out for CAP, universities etc. We will pay out share of CERN and similar projects. No outside fishing, no UK registered but foreign trawlers.

It will undoubtably cause ructions, but it will also be a good test of how important countries see the changes and how hard they want to fight for them, will short circuit lots of talking. Besides, who ever said that a decision now can't be changed?

It is real, people have got to start making decisions, not waffle for 10 years. Besides, I am not at all certain I trust the EU not to stuff us during the negotiations, like they have done so many times before, read Why Vote Leave by Hannan.

[vk6zgo]

Please welcome us back Kiwis, Ozzies, and Hosers. Let's not forget the West Indies, Hong Kong, India, most of Africa, and all the other former colonies (USA too!). Let's get back to a commonwealth trading partnership without EU intervention. 

Don't come running back to us,bleating about "Our common British heritage"---we've moved on!
You let us know where we belonged in the pecking order back in the 1970s.

[jitter]

This flow will never stop until we make fundamental changes in how we treat them, overpopulation and aquifer depletion will ensure it.

These are inevitable consequences, yes. Be we must also look to ourselves and ask ourselves if we want to keep adhering to a growth economy at all cost knowing full well that we cannot sustain growth indefinitely and that the end is in clear sight. This is the "inconvenient truth" someone tried to make us aware of long ago and now this influx of refugees will drive home the point in the near future.

These things are not as unrelated as they might seem at first.

[Fraser]

I do not normally comment on political matters as everyone has their own view and things can get heated quickly. However this is a friendly forum so I will risk it.

I am 48 and voted to leave the EU. Some may dislike me for that but hey, we live in a true democracy and we have just witnessed that in this referendum.

I read that some youngsters are angry as they think they have lost their future? This quite frankly annoys me. These persons seem to take the view that everything should be handed to them on a plate with no challenges. The U.K. appears to have bred a generation that contains some real pussies (not all though). The military have noted that we in the UK have become 'soft' and many applicants cannot pass the basic entry tests they carry out. If I want a job in the UK or a foreign country, I will work for it and ensure such a company wants to employ me. Being in the EU is not essential for such. Some youngsters need to grow up and realise you have to earn a good life, it is not free or a right.

On a much more serious note, Europe has been relatively peaceful. NATO is still active and effective. I do not see Europe suffering a decline into war any time soon. Which is good. BUT be aware that major events such as World War has instigated significant change, hopefully for the better. I hate War and consider such a failure as lives are lost. Those who disagree with what we, in the UK, have just done should maybe consider this a much better alternative to a War mixing things up? We may have lobbed a metaphorical hand grenade into the heart of the EU, but this could be what is needed to force a review of its operation by its members. If the EU was not so disfunctional and intent on borging all members into a 'superstate' I would not have voted to leave. Sadly, the U.K. May have effectively had to fall on its metaphorical sword in order to force changes that may not actually benefit it.

As to us in Blighty and our future...... We are a very old and generally sensible sea faring nation that used to run an empire that reached across the world. Our blood stock is strong and adventurous at its heart, we have just lost our way a little in recent decades. Yes British nationals have become 'Soft' and lost their sense of adventure and discovery. We will have to change, and I believe it will be for our betterment. I do not want us to become an Empire again as much occurred that I am not proud of, BUT I do want us to regain our national pride and self confidence. We can indeed be Great again and hopefully inspire others to be so as well. Great Britain can be an important player in world politics and economies, if allowed to rediscover itself and its heart of adventure.

I truly hope that the EU realises that the UK does not dislike our European friends, It is just that more than half of us believe the EU needs significant reform and should not necessarily be a 'Big Brother' that cannot effectively be negotiated with by members. The hysteria and anger that appears to have followed our decision is understandable but still disappointing. A bit like a divorce..... Emotions run high, but calm will return.

Finally, I watched an interview with a Polish EU representative (Commissioner?) yesterday. All went well until he thought the interview was over. Afterwards he said, In précis.......

"My father flew as a Polish pilot in the RAF during WWII..... Do not expect the Polish nation to come to your aid in the future! "

He said he was very angry with the U.K.

Oh dear. Emotions running high and he needs to stop and think about what his father was actually fighting for in the RAF....... Democracy and the defeat of a country that wanted a superstate ! His father fought for freedom, not specifically for Great Britain. I might add I have no issue with Germany or its population. We all have regrettable actions in our long histories, Britain included. It was very sad to see a so called intelligent Polish representative making such a silly and inaccurate statement though. I have a great liking for Poland and hope that the population does not think like this one chap. We are still in NATO and would defend the rights of its member nations. Why would EU politics ruin that relationship ?

I will get off my soap box now but please, my European friends and disgruntled 'remain' voters, consider this the beginning of a great new era in Europe that did not take a major War for it to come about. Be thankful for what we have and the adventure that we will be embarking upon.

And most importantly, be good to eachother, no matter the political views or beliefs.

Fraser

[Kalvin]

Britain needs two more voting rounds:

1. Shall we have a vote for another vote in which we vote for "Remain" or "Leave".
2. Shall we "Remain" or "Leave", this time I really mean it after I Googled for "What is EU", "What it means to leave the EU" and the "£350m for the NHS" is not going to happen.

[vk6zgo]

I think the UK government will fight to remain in the EU single market

With Cameron gone, it is hard to expect the UK government to follow through on that. They will try to negotiate the best deals they can get now.

I predicted the demise of the Cameron government earlier here, should Brexit materialize. I think you will see the collapse of additional governments in Europe, particularly the left-leaning governments. There is a swing to the right across the continent. Not dissimilar to the time just before the rise of Hitler.

And you can thank all of that to the abuse of power / trust voters had given to the far left politicians over the last decade.

I think you have "the bull by the horns"!

David Cameron's Government is a Conservative Party one.
The British Conservatives (Tories) were "conservative" back when the Republicans were raging liberals!
Maggie Thatcher,that heroine of the Neo-Cons, was unenthusiastic about many aspects of the EU,back when she was PM,but was still determined to stay.

Euro-enthusiasm & Euroscepticism  is spread over  the whole spectrum of British politics.,& has been for years.
This is just the latest of  a number of such referenda since the 1970s.
The other times,people voted to stay,so I guess "If at first you don't succeed,try,try,again." does work!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroscepticism_in_the_United_Kingdom