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General => General Technical Chat => Topic started by: onesixright on June 10, 2016, 10:29:34 am

Title: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: onesixright on June 10, 2016, 10:29:34 am
I'm just curious, voting date is coming up soon.

So, please if you UK resident, please only vote 1 or 2, for all others 3 or 4  ;)

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rolycat on June 10, 2016, 11:04:59 am
I think we should stay in Europe, and all the Brussels bureaucrats get thrown out. A better BREXIT  :-+
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: daqq on June 10, 2016, 11:06:05 am
Quote
I think we should stay in Europe, and all the Brussels bureaucrats get thrown out. A better BREXIT  :-+
Now there's a thought! I'd love that option.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 10, 2016, 11:24:53 am
Either way, the outcome is better for the UK and EU than the status quo.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: razberik on June 10, 2016, 01:08:22 pm
Quote
I think we should stay in Europe, and all the Brussels bureaucrats get thrown out. A better BREXIT  :-+
Now there's a thought! I'd love that option.
Exactly, however EU seems to be not reformable, so successful brexit should be a memento for leaders and reminder for others (don't vote for idiots which has a bipolar speech, A is said to national parliament, completely opposite B is said to EU parliament).
Personally I hope for Czexit, reasons are exactly the same as for Brexit.

Ad) Existence of European Comission is a fail. Group of dilettantes who are not elected and do not have any responsibility for their proposals.
Remember tungsten bulb ban, SnPb ban (what about banning SnPb for aircraft, shall be very cool) and ... eurofunds. Eastern-EU and middle-EU politicians salivate like a Pavlov's dog when hear "eurofunds".
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: NivagSwerdna on June 10, 2016, 01:41:28 pm
100% BrExit

Have you tried to get your kid into a school? Have you tried to get a GP appointment?  Have you tried to get a Hospital appointment? House Prices!  Zero hours/low paid work!

I live in the South East so maybe I'm biased as maybe we get the brunt of the downside.

To remain is insane.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 10, 2016, 02:03:59 pm
I think we should stay in Europe, and all the Brussels bureaucrats get thrown out.

You want the bureaucrats that control your life to be closer to you so their decisions are more relevant to your life and you have a better chance of influencing them.

We have similar tension here between levels of bureaucracies, federal, state, country and municipal.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: GEuser on June 10, 2016, 02:31:53 pm
Choice 3 and 4 are a bit vague , could you just name them stay in or get out? so i had to pick one of the others .
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 10, 2016, 04:25:43 pm
100% BrExit

Have you tried to get your kid into a school? Have you tried to get a GP appointment?  Have you tried to get a Hospital appointment? House Prices!  Zero hours/low paid work!

I live in the South East so maybe I'm biased as maybe we get the brunt of the downside.

To remain is insane.
OK

There is pressure on school places for sure - BUT if we want access to the common market we are likely to have to accept free movement of labour as well - c.f. Norway so voting "leave" is unlikely to change immigration, whatever the Leave campaign say.

GP & Hospital appointments. Well, the NHS seems to be being adversely affected by current Government policy with out reference to Europe. If you believe that pulling out of the EU will free up squillions extra to spend on the NHS you have been conned by the Leave campaign, are living in cloud cuckoo land or both as there is no guarantee that the money would go to the NHS anyway, it is not as much as the Leave crowd claim and, even if the whole net EU contribution was added to NHS funding, £8bn is only just under 7% of the current NHS budget. As for reducing immigration well, see above. Oh and are you planning on sending every EU national "Back Home" because, if not, there will be just as much competition for health care and if you are then don't be surprised if 2 million Ex Pats (and very disgruntled ones at that) turn up on your doorstep asking what tthey do now that Europe has kicked them out.

House prices - well, that's a case of supply and demand and years and years of under-provisioning of new properties. Not helped by the fact that the government thinks England stops at Watford Gap. The problems faced by the property developers which limit their ability to build and sell houses are multiple and include availability of suitable building land, the fact that many young people cannot afford a motgrage anyway and, interestingly, a skills shortage in the building trades. Turning your back on a ready supply of those skills from places like Poland does not seem all that sensible.

Finally I do not see how Zero hours contracts and low paid work are the fault of the EU. In fact it is likely that one of the reasons some of the right wing Brexit crowd want out is precisely to avoid legislation which might protect the workforce from this sort of thing.

I can't see that voting Leave will fix any of your complaints.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: NivagSwerdna on June 10, 2016, 04:52:18 pm
BUT if we want access to the common market we are likely to have to accept free movement of labour as well
That's a myth.  However unfortunately we don't have any negotiating power until we leave so it's pointless to predict the deal until we have some power back. 
Whatever the deal there is no reason to believe it will be what we have today or zero access, it will be something in between. 
Indeed Schäuble said today we won't get full access to the single market, but then again... he would say that.
Everything is negotiable but only if we are OUT
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 10, 2016, 05:36:49 pm
BUT if we want access to the common market we are likely to have to accept free movement of labour as well
That's a myth.  However unfortunately we don't have any negotiating power until we leave so it's pointless to predict the deal until we have some power back. 
Really? UK screws EU every now and then. Like new EU directive, fuck it because we don't like it, all other countries still need to accept it which puts them in disadvantage. There are so many things UK refused to accept or made EU to accept special preferences for UK, that you will be tired to count. So I really doubt that EU exploits UK, IMO it is completely other way. But if UK exits, guess it will be worse for all, both UK and the rest of EU, at least in near future.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 10, 2016, 07:06:42 pm
Merkel completely ruined the EU for me. Fine if you have a demographic time bomb that you need to fix, so do we, but for Christ's sake fix it with people from Spain or Poland that have a similar culture. Do not import Islamofascism from the third world and bully the rest of Europe into supporting your outrageously naive stupidity.
I can't tell you where in the UK the Sikhs, Hindus, Jews, or Poles live, but I can easily tell where every single muslim ghetto is in my area because they don't fit in.
Jews are now leaving the UK because they don't feel safe here, and our politicians are hell bent on making that situation worse by the day.

The insufferable Champagne Socialist, Miliband was on the radio today, talking down to people as usual. "Nobody understands our message on immigration" - Yes we do you Metropolitan numpty, you just can't accept that you've destroyed whole communities with your failed social experiments. As Blair's henchman put it: "To rub the Right's nose in diversity"
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Nauris on June 10, 2016, 07:23:45 pm
EU is turning into abomination. Get out while you can.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 10, 2016, 07:24:23 pm
BUT if we want access to the common market we are likely to have to accept free movement of labour as well
That's a myth.

OK, so the "Swiss model". Which took at least 10 years to set up, covers far fewer trade sectors and agreements than we would need, required considerable concessions on the part of the Swiss and provides an ongoing legislative burden on the Swiss government. Oh, and I believe the EU has said it was so complex it would not entertain setting up anything like it again.

Or the Canadian model - which has taken ages to set up, is not complete, does not provide tariff free access to the market and does not cover services (which are essential ti the UK economy).

Quote
However unfortunately we don't have any negotiating power until we leave so it's pointless to predict the deal until we have some power back. 
Whatever the deal there is no reason to believe it will be what we have today or zero access, it will be something in between. 
Indeed Schäuble said today we won't get full access to the single market, but then again... he would say that.
Everything is negotiable but only if we are OUT
I'm not clear how much negotiating power we will have once out. Brexit is potentially destabilising to Europe and I think that the EU will want to demonstrate how much damage pulling out can do - "pour décourager les autres".

The whole debate annoys me though. No-one really knows what the consequences will be, but the politicians feel that they must present their arguments as cast iron fact. Unfortunately sometimes bending the truth to breaking point to support their arguments, presenting half truths as fact and, when that fails, poring scorn on "the other side". The result is that there is no sensible debate and the Great British Public is being put off from actually thinking rationally about the issue - which is probably more important than any General Election (John Major is right about that one).
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: NivagSwerdna on June 10, 2016, 07:33:09 pm
I'm going to stop contributing to this thread (if I can help myself).  EEVBlog is a sanctuary from the referendum.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 10, 2016, 07:38:40 pm
Quote
Do not import Islamofascism from the third world and bully the rest of Europe into supporting your outrageously naive stupidity.

That's the basic message I have for my pro-illegal immigration pro-ghetto friends: in a free world, every sovereign country should have to right to import as many people of any type they wish ***into their own country***, as long as those people are confined to that country and with no externality on other countries / other peoples.

The same for those pro-illegal immigration activists. They can sponsor as many illegals as they could, as long as they bear the cost of supporting such illegals and confine those illegals to their apartments, their homes, their towns, ...

The problem often that those who love illegal immigrants love more of parking those illegal immigrants in other people's backyards.

aka Germany.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 10, 2016, 07:47:21 pm
I'm going to stop contributing to this thread (if I can help myself).  EEVBlog is a sanctuary from the referendum.
As much as I like a good argument I agree. No radiation with a wavelength in the 380 to 750nm range is going to be generated. It's all going to be in the 8–15 µm region. :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Wilksey on June 10, 2016, 08:18:19 pm
What is common are a shed load of "Vote Leave" posters including in shopping centres, but I haven't seen any "Vote Stay"... :popcorn:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 10, 2016, 08:21:47 pm
Quote
However unfortunately we don't have any negotiating power until we leave

Absolutely.

A union, any union, is the strongest when its members are free to leave.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: mtdoc on June 10, 2016, 08:26:25 pm
New poll today showing 55% in favor of exit (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-poll-brexit-leave-campaign-10-point-lead-remain-boris-johnson-nigel-farage-david-a7075131.html). 

If I were a Brit, I think I'd be voting to exit.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rich on June 10, 2016, 08:30:34 pm
I couldn't see the voting option for: "If the qualified politicians, economists etc. elected to run the country full-time can't agree on what's best, then how am I supposed to decide objectively in my spare-time using soundbite propaganda uttered by both sides and delivered through biased media? It would be irresponsible of me to vote without running a full simulation of the next 100 years of The World "

The whole referendum campaigns are about pressing people's buttons hard enough so they vote in a particular way without realising the negative effects that vote has (true for both sides). The fact that it is pretty much 50:50 shows its a crapshoot at best.

I've read some interesting opinions expressed in various forums because of the referendum, so it's positive people are talking and engaging, but I have to agree with grumpydoc - very few are thinking and updating their opinions based on rational though which is after all what debate should be about.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 10, 2016, 08:31:01 pm
New poll today showing 55% in favor of exit (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-poll-brexit-leave-campaign-10-point-lead-remain-boris-johnson-nigel-farage-david-a7075131.html). 
Oh dear.

Quote
If I were a Brit, I think I'd be voting to exit.
Because?

In case there is any doubt I will declare myself to be in the "Remain" camp.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: kaz911 on June 10, 2016, 08:37:16 pm
Name a British politician - easy - lots  -
Name a British Politician elected to the EU Parliament  - ..... (without googling) .. well that was hard was it  not? And when did you see one on TV last?

EU is ruling Europe from behind a big black curtain with no transparency at all.

No respect for member states money. All they care about is expanding the number of member countries to "expand" their power. That is why so many former Eastern European countries are now full members despite being so far away from the "idea(l)" of EU. Power mongers...

I don't doubt leaving EU will damage UK - but if UK does not leave - the next 200 years will be rough on the UK from EU because of all the offended bureaucrats with elephant memories. If UK leaves it will send a signal that is important - which is "We had enough" and that is a clear signal. It will hurt like ripping off a band-aid (or more like old scabs) - but big companies exporting to the UK will quickly make certain trade agreements will come into effect.

Does Audi, Mercedes, BMW and Porsche want to loose such a huge % of their EU market - not likely.. So they will set Merkels auto-pilot to steer towards the UK.

France wont say a lot as they are on the brink of a Greek style crisis. Spain is just recovering slowly - Italy is more focused on their own stuff. Scandinavia is finding out integration of radically different people is hard and is pushing against EU and have put in huge border controls to stem migration. The Netherlands are in trouble for all their business with Eastern Europe that made them a lot of money - is banned due to EU's Putin sanctions.

From my personal side on Brexit - yes my house might decline in value - yes income might drop - but I do think out is better than in (in this case).

But the bigger issue is without leadership reform in the EU - at some point there will be revolutions. That has happened to EVERY single "big" Government in History since beginning of recorded history and possibly before :) . The more rules - the bigger the government - the more annoyed a population - the closer the society is to collapse from one reason or another. And maybe a Brexit can help initiate a "reform" - so we can get a "silent & non-violent" revolution.

But for a twice a week podcast on world news dissected - follow the "No Agenda" podcast. Fun as it gets and takes a stab at the established news media and takes what news media reports apart. After EEVBlog and AmpHour they are my favorite "broadcasters" at the moment. And not an ADVERT in sight - all financed by donations from private individuals. Website: http://www.noagendashow.com/ (http://www.noagendashow.com/) - and despite being 'Merican (not Mexican) - they have a "reasonable" grasp of the European politics as well but with 'Merican angle.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 10, 2016, 08:37:39 pm
Quote
"If the qualified politicians, economists etc. elected to run the country full-time can't agree on what's best, then how am I supposed to decide objectively in my spare-time using soundbite propaganda uttered by both sides and delivered through biased media?

Doesn't sound you have a lot of confidence in  your own ability to decide for yourself.

There are a lot of research to suggest that the "uneducated" mass is pretty good at finding a good outcome for themselves without the "elites".
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 10, 2016, 08:40:55 pm
Quote
despite being 'Merican (not Mexican)

Not for long. There is a "Make America Mexico Again" movement going strong right this moment, :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 10, 2016, 08:43:08 pm
Within Europe there is no alternative to the status quo, yet the status quo is untenable. Refugee streams measurable in high 9 figures are bearing down on us in the near future, yet human rights and refugee conventions are given a status higher than the bible.

If the status quo doesn't change soon there are two ways forward for the EU, annihilation of its entire cultural fabric or civil war. Get out of the EU's status quo before that choice is forced upon you.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Towger on June 10, 2016, 08:54:01 pm



If I were a Brit, I think I'd be voting to exit.

You don't have to be British to have a vote. Due to a quirk in the law, a numbers of ex empire nationalities living in the UK can also vote in the referendum.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Nozzer on June 10, 2016, 08:59:47 pm
I'm in favour of remaining in the EU and working to reform it. It would have been easier to make reforms had the Conservative Party not decided to leave the mainstream conservative grouping in the EU and join the ultra right-wing bloc that has no real influence.

Most of the EU bureaucracy, apart from a relatively small number of permenant Eurocrats, are in fact civil servants from member states on secondment. In my old workplace opportunities arose to volunteer for a fortnight (deducted from one's annual leave) to work. Long hours (10 hour days) hard work, living in a hotel, but it was well rewarded and interesting.

I should point out that if we leave we will not have access to the Single European Market unless we accept the conditions that are attached in EU law to those (tariff free) trading privileges. Norway can trade with the EU through the SEM only by transposing EU law and regulations into her domestic law and by allowing unrestricted immigration. In Norway's case the immigration is coming from Russia through Northern Norway. So in fact we would get the worse of both worlds. We would have to transpose EU law into domestic law whilst having no power to alter it as we would as an EU member.

For more information you might like to read the UK Parliament's reading material produced by the House of Commons Library, on the issues regarding the EU referendum.

http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/research/eu-referendum/ (http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/research/eu-referendum/)

You can also get further information from the House of Commons Enquiry Service through the link:
http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/offices/commons/hcio/contact-us/ (http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/offices/commons/hcio/contact-us/)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 10, 2016, 09:06:45 pm
"If the qualified politicians, economists etc. elected to run the country full-time can't agree on what's best, then how am I supposed to decide objectively

Politicians appear to be looking to their own self interest - a Conservative agenda benefits by lowering wages and a Labour agenda benefits by having a new generation of a disenfranchised underclass to vote for it.

If a population repeatedly declares that immigration is of primary concern and a London political elite repeatedly looks the other way and refuses to discuss it, then I don't feel responsible if my own half-arsed opinions contribute to an exit vote.

The day after is going to be interesting, if a vote to remain wins the day then conspiracy theorists are going to be foaming at the mouth at all the back stage fixing that's gone on, and 50% of the population is going to be looking for ways to punish any pro-EU politician for screwing them over. And every EU bureaucrat is going to hate the UK even more for daring to resist their new dystopian Reich.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 10, 2016, 09:14:04 pm
Quote
and 50% of the population is going to be looking for ways to punish any pro-EU politician for screwing them over.

That's the problem with any democracy: at any given point, roughly 50% of the population is unhappy about the outcome.

Here is a solution that will make 100% of the people happy: split the country. The leave people go to their half that has nothing with the EU, and the remain people go to their half that is as tightly married to the EU as much as they want.

everyone is happy.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 10, 2016, 09:18:49 pm
Here is a solution that will make 100% of the people happy: split the country. The leave people go to their half that has nothing with the EU, and the remain people go to their half that is as tightly married to the EU as much as they want.

That's already happening over other issues, I gather the population of the East End of London is slowly decamping to Essex.


Really the EU is a great idea run by idiots - everyone wants an easy way to trade with other nations, nobody wants to import another countries rapists.
Why do we have to do both?

I'm sure the Victorians of the Industrial age didn't amass all that wealth just so some smug Liberal Progressive from Goldsmiths could give it all away to improve the life expectations of 1 million goat herders
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: razberik on June 10, 2016, 09:52:18 pm
Really the EU is a great idea run by idiots
Speaks for everything. I believe that many speakers for leaving doesn't really want to abandon Europe, they only want to punch incompetent leaders in face "Come on, wake up ! We have voted for leaving ! Do something !".
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: RGB255_0_0 on June 10, 2016, 10:04:12 pm
Here is a solution that will make 100% of the people happy: split the country. The leave people go to their half that has nothing with the EU, and the remain people go to their half that is as tightly married to the EU as much as they want.

That's already happening over other issues, I gather the population of the East End of London is slowly decamping to Essex.


Really the EU is a great idea run by idiots - everyone wants an easy way to trade with other nations, nobody wants to import another countries rapists.
Why do we have to do both?

I'm sure the Victorians of the Industrial age didn't amass all that wealth just so some smug Liberal Progressive from Goldsmiths could give it all away to improve the life expectations of 1 million goat herders
No, they amassed their wealth through exploitation and pillaging, among others.

I think leaving the EU will shock a hell of a lot of vote leavers, especially when they lose their job as the business ups sticks because their revenue was generated predominantly from the continent; as well as having to work with the Norwegian or Swiss models, which are even more broken than it is currently for us.

The people here are not going to get kicked out and sent home. Your kids aren't suddenly going to get their place at the local grammar school.

Waiting lists will be just as bad as they are now (and how they were in the late 90s). Countries can force us to pay for visas and push up the yearly visit to the Greek islands or what have you.

House prices were booming long before Poland joined the EU. Birth rates in the UK were falling and we'd have been in a similar situation as Japan, Germany and China - much worse than it is now.

I think the vote is more a utopian view if what we think will be resolved by leaving (or staying) rather than actually thinking logically and reasonably about it.

What we have found out is how many power hungry politicians there are like Boris J and Michael G who are basically making this about them versus Cameron in a popularity and bragging rights contest.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 10, 2016, 10:07:45 pm
If UK exit Putin will have a bottle of champagne with Lavrov and the Scott's and Welch will reelect for an UK exit and left standing holding the bags will be England..
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Bud on June 10, 2016, 10:08:12 pm
I recall there was life before EU.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 10, 2016, 10:19:47 pm
I recall there was life before EU.
There was - I remember the '70's. Back then random power cuts were an adventure and I loved my dad getting out the old style polished brass paraffin lamps and lighting them up. Especially when we had to put a new filament in as that meant burning off the protective coating which was always spectacular.

That sort of thing excites when you are 10; not so much these days.

The UK in the 70's was a mess. Per capita income had fallen by 25% compared with Germany & France over the post war period - odd when Germany was the "loser" and France had been invaded.

Now I'm not suggesting that it was all to do with the EU but the UK's economic performance has been hugely better in the 45 or so years we have been in the EU compared with the previous 25 after the war.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 10, 2016, 10:41:04 pm
If UK exit Putin will have a bottle of champagne

Why should we care? We are not at war with him. Ohh he took an Island with an important naval base and a near 100% ethnically Russian population and helped a Russian region in Georgia.

In the mean time we threw tons of money at the Ukraine to destabilize a government and subsequently coming very close to putting a bunch of genocidal neo-nazis into power. For what? To create a money pit the EU is somehow obligated to pour billions into year after year? (Mark my words, we will bail the IMF out in the Ukraine soon. My country's annoying little referendum delayed it a bit, but they will get the money train back on the rails. There is no alternative.)We bombed Lybia to hell and all the EU got out of it was a massive increase in boats with refugees. Our "allies" are a much bigger danger to us than Putin.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 11, 2016, 12:02:45 am
No, they amassed their wealth through exploitation and pillaging, among others.

I don't see any Rhodes scholarships handing back the money.
Being racist to white waitresses, yes - handing back the money, no.

I'm personally quite glad that every country was busily exploiting someone, I'd hate to be the only country in the world where gender study parasites gleefully paraded their moral superiority over all the other war-mongers.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rich on June 11, 2016, 12:21:10 am
Quote
"If the qualified politicians, economists etc. elected to run the country full-time can't agree on what's best, then how am I supposed to decide objectively in my spare-time using soundbite propaganda uttered by both sides and delivered through biased media?

Doesn't sound you have a lot of confidence in  your own ability to decide for yourself.
You would be correct. It's easy to make a decision based on which personal biases are stroked by each side of the argument. I can even construct forward looking theories to support my decision and use future events to add to my confirmation bias. But long term, for the subsequent generations, how is even possible for the lay-person today to accurately assess and predict all interrelated variables to determine a 'best' future prediction. It just isn't. But largely it doesn't matter - In or out, the actions of successive governments will have a more direct and lasting impact.


There are a lot of research to suggest that the "uneducated" mass is pretty good at finding a good outcome for themselves without the "elites".

Check. 4 legs good 2 legs bad :) 


Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 11, 2016, 12:28:56 am
BUT if we want access to the common market we are likely to have to accept free movement of labour as well
That's a myth.  However unfortunately we don't have any negotiating power until we leave so it's pointless to predict the deal until we have some power back. 
Whatever the deal there is no reason to believe it will be what we have today or zero access, it will be something in between. 
Indeed Schäuble said today we won't get full access to the single market, but then again... he would say that.
Everything is negotiable but only if we are OUT
And what do you think to achieve? In the grand scheme of things (global economy) GB is just a small insignificant spec in the Atlantic ocean. That former Greek minister of finance had the same illusion about negotiating a deal on his terms. Look how well that ended.
Either way the EU is about creating a huge internal market which can serve as a self supporting economic eco system which is very resillient against crisis. The countries in the EU are too small to do that by themselves. I'm not saying it is perfect as it is now but the crisis from the recent years has shown what works and what doesn't. Also companies are getting bigger and may not be interested to adhering to local law at all (look at Microsoft, Apple, Dell, Google). A single country just doesn't stand a chance because their market makes just a few percent of the turnover of such big companies!
Edit: For example: Microsoft can afford to leave GB. Can GB afford for Microsoft to leave GB?

Within Europe there is no alternative to the status quo, yet the status quo is untenable. Refugee streams measurable in high 9 figures are bearing down on us in the near future, yet human rights and refugee conventions are given a status higher than the bible.
Did you ever care to look at the rate at which the population in the EU will be shrinking? Those refugees are very necessary to replenish the workforce! In the upcoming decades we'll be needing a lot more extra people. Shortly after WW2 there has been a surge in the number of people being born. This generation is now retiring. In the next 3 decades their offspring will be retiring as well.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 11, 2016, 12:35:52 am
The Netherlands are in trouble for all their business with Eastern Europe that made them a lot of money - is banned due to EU's Putin sanctions.
Not true. Only a few companies which specialised in trading with Russia where affected and you can argue these companies didn't spread their risk very well. The NL is still firmly the 2nd largest exporter of agricultural products despite the ban on export to Russia.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 11, 2016, 12:59:17 am
If UK exit Putin will have a bottle of champagne

Why should we care? We are not at war with him. Ohh he took an Island with an important naval base and a near 100% ethnically Russian population and helped a Russian region in Georgia.

We Who?I just mentioned a fact! Ooh, Putin shoot down a airliner full of Dutch people, why should you care/ be bothered by such a little pesky thing.. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36350520 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36350520)

Quote
In the mean time we threw tons of money at the Ukraine to destabilize a government and subsequently coming very close to putting a bunch of genocidal neo-nazis into power. For what? To create a money pit the EU is somehow obligated to pour billions into year after year? (Mark my words, we will bail the IMF out in the Ukraine soon. My country's annoying little referendum delayed it a bit, but they will get the money train back on the rails. There is no alternative.)We bombed Lybia to hell and all the EU got out of it was a massive increase in boats with refugees. Our "allies" are a much bigger danger to us than Putin.

The reason EU+ US bombed the pants of Gaddafi was because the dude was about to commit mass murder but WE then after his death deliberately forgot to seize all the European made armory we had sold to the sleazebag. Here the list for you to study:
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/mar/01/eu-arms-exports-libya (http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/mar/01/eu-arms-exports-libya)

But heey, you might like Gaddafi since EU made a deal with the dude to stop immigrants from Africa..How sad that "WE" then bombed the shit out of the dude..

War in Ukraine are "big elephant politics" way above your ideas about neo natzi government, btw majority of those loose nazi cannons are integrated into the Ukraine army(how convenient). If you haven't noticed yet "fascism" is popular these days, both in us europe/us and surprise Russia! Yeah Putin is really a fascist if you look into what he says and his actions! How strange for a dude with sovjiet KGB background but with Russia nothing is impossible even civil war and if its going to be nasty and very dangerous, it's all west's fault as he like to say!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 11, 2016, 01:29:45 am
Did you ever care to look at the rate at which the population in the EU will be shrinking? Those refugees are very necessary to replenish the workforce!

We aren't interchangeable. The big numbers won't even be Middle Easterners which come with at least some academic culture (severely held back through centuries of inbreeding and Islam unfortunately) but sub-Saharan Africans.

Quote
In the upcoming decades we'll be needing a lot more extra people.

We need a lot more solidarity, either solidarity to better spread the wealth generated through an increasingly automated economy. Dedicating a greater part of our resources to elderly care. Or solidarity to do that at the same time as trying to uplift a massive number of immigrants which won't significantly contribute to the economy for a generation (if ever).

The solidarity for the former is possible, the solidarity for the latter will be absent. White flight will gut western Europe if we go down the road we are on now. It will just be the immigrants and people who can't or won't move ... hopefully more like South Africa than Zimbabwe, but who knows. It won't be pretty at any rate.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 11, 2016, 01:59:38 am
Ooh, Putin shoot down a airliner full of Dutch people, why should you care/ be bothered by such a little pesky thing.

It was a warzone, shit happens.

Quote
The reason EU+ US bombed the pants of Gaddafi was because the dude was about to commit mass murder but WE then after his death deliberately forgot to seize all the European made armory we had sold to the sleazebag.

A sleazebag giving his citizens a remarkably high standard of living. Who was planning to change the distribution of oil wealth to direct payment to citizens, bypassing tribal councils. Which made some other sleazebags come for his head with a little nudging from foreign interests.

I'm sure by now most citizens would have rather Gadaffi had slaughtered the rebels (especially women).

Quote
But heey, you might like Gaddafi since EU made a deal with the dude to stop immigrants from Africa.

In the end he did it pretty cheaply too, sure his opening bid was ludicrous ... but that was just Gadaffi being Gadaffi, compared to Erdogan he was an excellent partner.

Quote
How sad that "WE" then bombed the shit out of the dude.

I don't want to put the blame on foreign nations when my own happily collaborated. Merkel fought more against the destruction of Libya than any of our leaders unfortunately.

Quote
War in Ukraine are "big elephant politics" way above your ideas about neo natzi government

Lets say the EU doesn't do its "duty" and dumps billions into Ukraine. With their next default it will become impossible for the IMF to give them more money. So a complete collapse into a failed state would be next, who is then going to take power?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 11, 2016, 03:40:47 am
But for a twice a week podcast on world news dissected - follow the "No Agenda" podcast. Fun as it gets and takes a stab at the established news media and takes what news media reports apart. After EEVBlog and AmpHour they are my favorite "broadcasters" at the moment.

Adam is American but was raised at gitmo nation lowlands, hence the frequent coverage of European issues. 

"In the morning."
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: mtdoc on June 11, 2016, 04:31:00 am
Why should we care? We are not at war with him. Ohh he took an Island with an important naval base and a near 100% ethnically Russian population and helped a Russian region in Georgia.

In the mean time we threw tons of money at the Ukraine to destabilize a government and subsequently coming very close to putting a bunch of genocidal neo-nazis into power. For what? To create a money pit the EU is somehow obligated to pour billions into year after year? (Mark my words, we will bail the IMF out in the Ukraine soon. My country's annoying little referendum delayed it a bit, but they will get the money train back on the rails. There is no alternative.)We bombed Lybia to hell and all the EU got out of it was a massive increase in boats with refugees. Our "allies" are a much bigger danger to us than Putin.

How dare you challenge the Neocon narrative!  How else can we keep people in a state of fear, and give NATO and the MIC a reason to exist? We need constant war or the threat of war.  Herman Goering said it best:

Quote
Naturally the common people don't want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or fascist dictorship, or a parliament or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peace makers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: daqq on June 11, 2016, 05:05:56 am
Quote
Did you ever care to look at the rate at which the population in the EU will be shrinking? Those refugees are very necessary to replenish the workforce! In the upcoming decades we'll be needing a lot more extra people.
Replenishing the population is needed, yes, but I doubt that the ONLY possible way is to import a bunch of culturally incompatible people with a mentality stuck a few centuries in the past. Are you quite sure that that's the only way?

I mean, somehow Europe has managed to NOT have a population decline in the past without resorting to steps that will effectively erase its culture and creating a future giant ghetto near every city. Maybe something else would work?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: kaz911 on June 11, 2016, 06:26:25 am
But for a twice a week podcast on world news dissected - follow the "No Agenda" podcast. Fun as it gets and takes a stab at the established news media and takes what news media reports apart. After EEVBlog and AmpHour they are my favorite "broadcasters" at the moment.

Adam is American but was raised at gitmo nation lowlands, hence the frequent coverage of European issues. 

"In the morning."
And for those who have not listened yet - and needs a translation to "gitmo nation lowlands" - Adam Curry was raised in the Netherlands *G* and was MTV host and then did a tech startup. The other host - John C. Dvorak - is one of the really "old timers" in computer industry publishing - and I think was one of first PC Magazine writers in the old days.

But both guys play well together like Dave and Chris.

"Boots on the ground".. back at you. :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 11, 2016, 07:49:54 am
Don't feel captured. The exit door is wide open. We've stopped caring about your belly button focused behaviour some time ago.

Bye
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 11, 2016, 08:26:02 am
I am in favor of a Brexit - I sincerely hope it passes. 

I think there is a lot of bullishit and alarmism on both sides, and frankly it's showing up in this thread as well.

The UK existed long before the EU and it did quite well.  This idea that the country suffered rolling blackouts and was economically stunted in growth is laughable.  The whole world experienced somewhat of a technological and economic renaissance over the past 30 years, and it wasn't because they were part of the EU.  And there is no connection with having to accept open borders to get free trade.  They're called trade deals and the USA has successfully negotiated lots of them that provide free trade and open borders have never been even in contemplation as part of the trade deal. 

As for the immigration issue, I am a UK citizen and I spend a fair amount of time there.  Each time I go back, I am amazed at the transformation.  I feel the pro-EU side of the debate paints it as racism, but I don't know anyone in favor of a Brexit who just hates foreigners.  There are so many in the UK now that it's impossible not to mix and mingle with them, nor do I think anyone believes they are all going to pack up and leave if there's a Brexit.  However, the UK is one of the most densely populated countries in the world (excepting small countries and islands like Monaco, Nauuru and such).  When people talk about needing a younger generation due to low birth rates... for what reason?  Is the UK in danger of running out of people and will have nobody to run public services?  No, what people are talking about when they worry about low birth rates are who is going to pay for the welfare spending as the existing Brits age.  Well, as people live longer and welfare spending rises, the base of the pyramid has to get a LOT bigger to support the Ponzi scheme.  But the problem is if the UK imports sufficient workers to keep it alive... what happens when those people age and retire?  Import more?  And more?  Until there are 20,000 people per square km like in Monaco or Macau?  Eventually it comes crashing down and it's a lot better to head these problems off before they become insurmountable.

And last but not least... if being in the EU is a good thing for Britain and for the EU, then if Britain leaves and it turns out it wasn't a good idea, then there is nothing stopping them re-joining.  People say it won't be that easy - really?  If that is true, it means the EU rules based on spite, bias, vindictiveness and not based on common sense and sensible policy.  And if that's the case, better to GTFO sooner than later.

It's sort of like being in a marriage.  Do you want to be married to someone that you stay married to because of how much they say they would ruin your life if you ever got divorced?   That's no basis for any kind of relationship - social or economic.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: SimonD on June 11, 2016, 09:33:36 am
Everyone in Europe knows that EU = Germany and Mr. Schaeuble  ....
Whatever Germany decides is the law for the rest of Europe ...
So  ... BREXIT as soon as possible !!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 11, 2016, 10:27:35 am
Quote
that will effectively erase its culture and creating a future giant ghetto near every city.

Multiculturalism at its best.

End of the day, the voters elected the politicians who enacted such policies.

You eat what you sow. Universally true.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tandy on June 11, 2016, 11:05:06 am
It is difficult to make an informed decision with all of the misleading nonsense being spouted by the politicians, neither side have presented a clear or credible argument.

In principle I like the idea of a European Union but have deep reservations about the way it is currently organised.

I have written (a rather long) post about some of the issues that are being discussed and my conclusions.

Public Finances
The leave campaign would have you believe that the EU costs Britain £350m a week but the real figure is apparently closer to £248m, either way it seems like a lot of money. It isn't quite that simple though as a lot of the money comes back in grants and subsidies. So I don't buy the argument that there would be a lot of extra money for our public services. My expectation is that not a lot would change in the amount of money available. The only thing that would change is that our elected government would be the ones deciding where to spend the money instead of the EU. In theory a good thing but in practice they will just waste it and probably give themselves pay rises while they are at it for being so good at wasting it. On the other hand it is very selfish of us to say we are not going to help poorer countries in Europe such as Greece because we want to keep all our money to ourselves. I don't think it is an issue that I would consider makes much influence to how I would vote.

Trade
So much has been said about trade. Yes it is convenient that when we make a sale to an EU destination that we don't have to deal with duty (tariffs) and VAT arrangements are relatively simple. But then again a majority of the products we deal with are from China or the United States so we have to pay duty on those imports and that cost gets passed on to customers anyway. So maybe in the longer term better trade agreements with the US and China may make things cheaper for us all. Short term there will be some disruption while new arrangements were sorted out. In order to sell products into Europe UK companies would still have to comply with EU rules such as CE marking and RoHS directives so it isn't as if magically there will be less red tape. The EU is struggling to negotiate a trade agreement with the US that is fair, TTIP is biased in the favour of the US and wouldn't want to be part of that. But you have to ask if a large union of countries does not have the strength to negotiate a trade agreement that  is on equal terms with the US then what chance does a little individual country like the UK. The so called special relationship is nothing more than the UK and US speaking a similar language and the US having huge influence over the UK since we borrowed so much money from the US during two world wars without which we would have been bankrupt. So again, who knows exactly what would happen but one thing is for sure people want to buy stuff and so a way will be found to make that possible. So again apart from short term problems while things are up in the air I don't see it being a long term issue either way.

Immigration
Oh please! stop reading the Daily Mail and other so called news papers. While Britain is one of the more desirable countries to come to in Europe for economic migrants not everyone wants to come here. I don't blame anyone who wants to better their life moving to a country with better economic prospects, you would do the same. But the fact is people come here to work not just to get benefits, some may come for the NHS but equally many are working minimum wage jobs that many British born people refuse to do choosing to live on benefits instead of working hard in a physically demanding or unpleasant job for very low pay. Big business wants to keep the migration flow happening because they get a fresh supply of people willing to work for next to nothing. In an ideal world the EU would work to help accelerate the economic growth of those countries so people don't have to uproot their lives in search of a better future. The biggest immigration problem however is people from outside the EU and we don't seem to have got that under control.

Expansion
This one does concern me, the push for continued expansion of the EU is largely responsible for many of the problems, Taking on countries like Greece caused them to take on regulation that they could not afford to implement and has turned what was a poor but stable economy into a basket case. The very idea of including Turkey in the EU seems like trying to build an empire not unifying a group of neighbouring countries. If we can’t stop this continued expansion then that to my mind is a reason to be out, as I think further trouble is on the horizon.

Integration
The EU is forever trying to impose greater control over member countries seemingly trying to make a United States of Europe with a federal government. There are some valuable laws that cover some very important issues. It makes a lot of sense for countries to agree on common standards so that people can travel, work and trade in other countries without being arrested for wearing the wrong clothes, following the wrong religion or having sexual preferences that don’t meet with the standards of a government. But I would rather that the EU stick to the major issues and stop messing about with trivial things. For example it might seem good that now we get cheaper mobile calls while roaming through Europe but really is that something that should be put into law? It is this kind of meddling that makes me think there are far to many bureaucrats with time on their hands on the payroll. That money could be spent on far better things like helping fix problems in countries that are struggling.

Democratic Accountability
My biggest concern about the EU is the way that there is little transparency in the law making process and the process for introducing laws is not fully democratic. The elected Euro MPs can not propose new laws, amendments or repeal of existing laws.



What I would like to see would be slimmed down EU that only deals with the significant issues of basic human rights, environmental issues and trade etc. Not trivial things like how much it costs to make a call or how orange an orange needs to be to be sold as an orange. I would like to see this done in a proper democratic way so that the member countries can propose laws and amendments to the existing ones and attempt to convince the other countries to support proposals based on merit. I would also like to see a halt to further expansion of the EU or at the very least a managed expansion programme where new countries are associate members while the rest of the EU helps to bring the new members economy in-line with the standards of the rest of the union to prevent the mass exodus from new countries. It is not in the interests of any new country to loose significant numbers of their population or for other countries to have to deal with the sudden influx of new people requiring somewhere to live.

The problem is as far as I can see this can not happen with the EU as it is now, the current leadership are using for ever more expansion and integration and the member countries have very little say in the direction of the EU. The UK has never really been fully behind the EU project, seemingly being on the opposition more often than not for anything the EU is doing so I wonder why we are part of it in the first place. While Britain is probably the most vocal about its opposition to the EU we are far from the only country with reservations and if we did leave I think it would start a bit of a chain reaction with some other countries watching with interest and following suit if it worked out for Britain.

Unfortunately I think it would take a big event like a country leaving the EU to actually make them stop and review where they are going with it. What bureaucrats fail to realise is that as much as we would like everything to fit into simple clearly defined categories, life isn’t like that, people don’t like to feel like they are being told what to do paying more taxes for the privilege.
The right balance has to be found and at the moment I think the EU is trying to hard to gain power. So as the reforms that I would like to see happen are seemingly impossible while we are in the EU I think leaving would be the better option. It would have some short term consequences no doubt as everything is thrown into uncertainty but it is probably the action that needs to be taken for the long term benefit of everyone to stop the EU forcing their laws onto countries who never elected the officials.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 11, 2016, 11:10:59 am
Quote
Unfortunately I think it would take a big event like a country leaving the EU to actually make them stop and review where they are going with it.

that, I think, is the biggest contribution the leave campaign will make to the EU, regardless of the outcome of the votes.

Because of it, everyone benefits.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 11, 2016, 11:25:17 am
@Tandy: on one hand you say the EU should be about making trade easier but on the other hand you say the EU shouldn't meddle with trade (phone costs, oranges, etc). Creating a level playing field when it comes to trade requires setting detailed rules for companies.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tandy on June 11, 2016, 12:04:29 pm
@Tandy: on one hand you say the EU should be about making trade easier but on the other hand you say the EU shouldn't meddle with trade (phone costs, oranges, etc). Creating a level playing field when it comes to trade requires setting detailed rules for companies.
Making trade easier by avoiding artificial barriers such as tariffs, as a consumer I like that I can buy something from a company in France or Germany without getting import charges that i would get if I bought something from Australia or the United States. I see the setting of price caps on call charges being meddling in the market.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 11, 2016, 12:45:04 pm
@Tandy: on one hand you say the EU should be about making trade easier but on the other hand you say the EU shouldn't meddle with trade (phone costs, oranges, etc). Creating a level playing field when it comes to trade requires setting detailed rules for companies.
Free trade is not an all or nothing thing. At minimum you can just reduce import taxes.

The EU with its utopian feature creep made the ex empire a colony.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 11, 2016, 01:09:03 pm
Haven't had time to read the whole of your post yet.

Trade
But then again a majority of the products we deal with are from China or the United States so we have to pay duty on those imports and that cost gets passed on to customers anyway.
The single largest trading partner for exports is the US with about 13% of our total. China comes quite far down the list. The EU represents just under 50% of our overall export trade although that figure is falling.

China 3rd or 4th largest partner where imports are concerned but, overall a bit over half of our imports come from the EU.

Source: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/521888/OTS_Release_0316.pdf (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/521888/OTS_Release_0316.pdf)

The value of goods "exported"1 to the UK from the EU is about 16% of the total value of EU exported goods - while we are the biggest single trading partner some 5/6ths of EU trade goes elsewhere.

So, in percentage terms we need the EU rather more than they need us. Of course trade would not stop overnight but the potential to damage the GB economy is fairly large and it does not take much of a fall in the UK GDP to wipe out any "saving" we get from not having to pay into the EU.

1] Technically it is not an export because of the single market.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 11, 2016, 01:33:50 pm
Quote
as a consumer I like that I can buy something from a company in France or Germany without getting import charges that i would get if I bought something from Australia or the United States.

that benefit doesn't come without its own externalities.

Each one of us is a consumer and a producer (to other consumers). Free trade means not just you can buy something cheap (exposing local producers to competition from overseas), but also others can buy things you produce cheap (exposing you as a producer to competition from overseas).

In the end, certain segments of the population tend to get hurt more than benefiting from free trade, and those people happen to be ones that can least sustain adversity.

Thus the rise of poverty and shrinking (lower-)middle class.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 11, 2016, 02:17:49 pm
Oh please! stop reading the Daily Mail and other so called news papers.

How about Klaus Schwab? Who thinks it's possible to get a refugee stream of 1 Billion to move north?

Quote
The biggest immigration problem however is people from outside the EU and we don't seem to have got that under control.

It's impossible to get under control within our allowed parameters. Human rights law and the Geneva convention on refugees are nooses which we aren't allowed to remove. Yet we will have to to survive, it will be easier with a smaller government.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: madires on June 11, 2016, 02:44:56 pm
The EU with its utopian feature creep made the ex empire a colony.

That's a common prejudice and misconception. The UK has some special deals and discounts. For example, the Pro BREXITs are telling everyone how much the EU costs but forget to substract the discounts and the subsidies. Beware of propaganda!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: continuo on June 11, 2016, 02:50:22 pm
ACHTUNG! STAY!

(Or the UK won't be eligible for future scope months because of insignificance)   :popcorn:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: R_Gtx on June 11, 2016, 03:01:52 pm
BUT if we want access to the common market we are likely to have to accept free movement of labour as well
That's a myth.  However unfortunately we don't have any negotiating power until we leave so it's pointless to predict the deal until we have some power back. 
Really? UK screws EU every now and then. Like new EU directive, fuck it because we don't like it, all other countries still need to accept it which puts them in disadvantage. There are so many things UK refused to accept or made EU to accept special preferences for UK, that you will be tired to count. So I really doubt that EU exploits UK, IMO it is completely other way. But if UK exits, guess it will be worse for all, both UK and the rest of EU, at least in near future.

Official EU figures:

Total EU spending in Latvia – € 1.062 billion                                   Total EU spending in the UK: € 6.985 billion
Total Latvian contribution to the EU budget – € 0.244 billion          Total UK contribution to the EU budget: € 11.342 billion

So, for Latvians, it is a case of bending over and doing as your told, something you've been doing since the Soviet occupation of 1940. Whilst for Britons, the case is best stated by quoting from "Rule, Brittania":

Quote
....
Britannia rule the waves.
Britons never, never, never shall be slaves.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bookaboo on June 11, 2016, 03:04:32 pm
I live and work in the UK and with the caveat that I have not done in depth analysis I'm broadly in favour of staying in.
The main (maybe only) argument for leaving is the "benefit tourism" problem, however if that's what concerns people why not just fix the benefits system to give incentives work instead of subsidies for laziness? Of course that wont happen as all politicians need the votes of those that abuse that same system.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 11, 2016, 03:10:12 pm
The EU with its utopian feature creep made the ex empire a colony.

That's a common prejudice and misconception. The UK has some special deals and discounts. For example, the Pro BREXITs are telling everyone how much the EU costs but forget to substract the discounts and the subsidies. Beware of propaganda!

I was not referring to money.

Frankly, I am surprised how much the anti Brexit argument are focused on economic benefits, ignoring aspects such as sovereignty, culture, history, tradition and values, as if the UK is merely a corporation whose main goal is to maximize it's profits.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 11, 2016, 03:10:20 pm
Total EU spending in Latvia – € 1.062 billion                                   Total EU spending in the UK: € 6.985 billion
Total Latvian contribution to the EU budget – € 0.244 billion          Total UK contribution to the EU budget: € 11.342 billion
The thing is, barely any of that money stays in Latvia and most of it goes back the same way how it came in.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: madires on June 11, 2016, 03:31:50 pm
I was not referring to money.

Frankly, I am surprised how much the anti Brexit argument are focused on economic benefits, ignoring aspects such as sovereignty, culture, history, tradition and values, as if the UK is merely a corporation whose main goal is to maximize it's profits.

Don't have all EU countries their own culture and history? Basically it boils down to money and political power when making multilateral treaties.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 11, 2016, 03:37:32 pm
Quote
The main (maybe only) argument for leaving is the "benefit tourism" problem

really?

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: R_Gtx on June 11, 2016, 04:18:48 pm
Quote
Did you ever care to look at the rate at which the population in the EU will be shrinking? Those refugees are very necessary to replenish the workforce! In the upcoming decades we'll be needing a lot more extra people.
Replenishing the population is needed, yes, but I doubt that the ONLY possible way is to import a bunch of culturally incompatible people with a mentality stuck a few centuries in the past. Are you quite sure that that's the only way?

I mean, somehow Europe has managed to NOT have a population decline in the past without resorting to steps that will effectively erase its culture and creating a future giant ghetto near every city. Maybe something else would work?

For many years I was ambivalent towards the EU, until four years ago I read http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18519395. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18519395.) The referendum can't come soon enough.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rolycat on June 11, 2016, 04:35:22 pm
The UK has some special deals and discounts. For example, the Pro BREXITs are telling everyone how much the EU costs but forget to substract the discounts and the subsidies.
I do tend to be suspicious of entities which take large chunks of my money and then expect me to be grateful when dribbles of it are returned in the guise of 'deals', 'discounts' and 'subsidies'.

Quote
Beware of propaganda!
Excellent advice. Unfortunately distortion, exaggeration and alarmist propaganda seem to be endemic on both sides of the campaign. Actual facts are hard to come by.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: woodchips on June 11, 2016, 05:08:20 pm
Some more general points to ponder.

Am I the only small manufacturer to be put out of business by the WEEE directive? That there was never a de minimus level of produce weight below which it didn't apply.

Am I the only one to wonder about RoHS where my 50g of lead in my solder has to be banned? But the shooting fraternity can continue blasting lead shot around the countryside willy nilly?

What I find really frightening is the appearance of a complete lack of skill, experience, expertise etc within the EU. Look at the Euro, the EU were told it wouldn't work but ignored. What about the overcatch fisheries policy of throwing it back in the sea? What are the odds on a black swan (see the book by Nasim Nicholas Talib) moment, a devastating unforseen disaster created by people, like the 2008 crash, like the 2010 Euro crisis. I rather think that we will be bailing out the rest of Europe after one of these.

Is the 24th June much like 1st September 1939, do we REALLY have to save Europe, again?

These points are for discussion, I am thinking deeply about the choice, other people's ideas and experiences are important.



Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 11, 2016, 05:24:29 pm
Quote
Some more general points to ponder.

I'm a big believer of EU: I think strategically speaking, the old Europe cannot compete with the US, Russia or China. A unified market and intensified competition tend to drive productivity and enhance welfare for all member countries over the long run.

However, that's built on two assumptions that are violently violated during the implementation:

1) EU is an economic union, not a political / sovereign union. That means individual member countries should retain its sovereignty and has a say on all other aspects of its inner workings.

2) member countries are highly similar and share common goals.

Essentially EU should have been implemented as the United States pre-19th century. Instead, they implemented a 20th century United States. Its east-ward expansion was purely political and suicidal, and driven by people who's still living in the 1970s.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 11, 2016, 06:36:31 pm
Just  |O

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/10/eu-referendum-panicked-remain-camp-plans-to-take-out-boris-as-po/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/10/eu-referendum-panicked-remain-camp-plans-to-take-out-boris-as-po/)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 11, 2016, 06:56:08 pm
Frankly, I am surprised how much the anti Brexit argument are focused on economic benefits, ignoring aspects such as sovereignty, culture, history, tradition and values,
Culture, history, values, etc change rapidly so there is little use in preserving those. A country is nothing more than a piece of land and the people in it listening to a centralised government. Maybe you feel connected to your fellow countrymen but that is all made up to keep you quiet. The 'us-them' thinking pattern is a very easy way to control people.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 11, 2016, 07:04:10 pm
Frankly, I am surprised how much the anti Brexit argument are focused on economic benefits, ignoring aspects such as sovereignty, culture, history, tradition and values,
Culture, history, values, etc change rapidly so there is little use in preserving those. A country is nothing more than a piece of land and the people in it listening to a centralised government. Maybe you feel connected to your fellow countrymen but that is all made up to keep you quiet. The 'us-them' thinking pattern is a very easy way to control people.
I see your point, the UK and Pakistan are basically the same thing, if not now than very soon. :)

Anyway, good luck with the multiculturalism.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 11, 2016, 07:44:12 pm
Well the US went from Indian tribes to European and is now moving towards becoming Latino / Hispanic.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Howardlong on June 11, 2016, 08:01:13 pm
If I could be reasonably sure that the EU had any chance of reforming itself then I'd vote remain. As it stands now, it is on a stated course of further fiscal parity and defence integration among other federalist aims. Its policy making is now largely around maintaining an army of self-serving politicians and their henchfolk.

Just a few weeks ago the EU had a golden opportunity to show they could change, and attempt a compromise with Cameron, but instead he was sent home with barely crumbs. That short sightedness and arrogance turned out to be a much more dangerous game of poker than they or anyone else expected.

The negativity and politics of fear common in the debate at large I personally find very patronising, rather than concentrating on the issues, and I am sure that too is part of the extraordinary polls we're seeing.

Putting up foreign politicians like Obama, Merkel and today Schäuble is also hardly the way to encourage already disenfranchised floating voters concerned about foreign influence at all levels.

As an earlier poster suggested, the EU needs a bloody nose administering, and needs to fundamentally adjust its course if it is to survive. Regrettably, the only way the EU is capable of changing is to give it a clear message by leaving. For their own survival they'll have to change, and sharpish too, if they are to avoid the wider domino effect predicted.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 11, 2016, 08:08:37 pm
Well the US went from Indian tribes to European and is now moving towards becoming Latino / Hispanic.

Yep, with very drastic cultural differences. If you are OK living in any culture then you are good to go.

BTW, I would take the US as the gold standard, we have our own problems, some  are similar to Europe but with local variations and at different scale.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 11, 2016, 08:35:57 pm
Quote
Everyone in Europe knows that EU = Germany and Mr. Schaeuble  ...

You are wrong ,Merkel and Schaeuble are  sheepdogs of the Europe Lords that have to control to the lambs. But they are doing very bad work and soon they will be retired

The worse thing that could do the british goverment is to get the pimp and to defy to Europe Lords and USA Lords(Remember that UK are ambassadors and the head beach from USA  at Europe ).

And if i was one Europe Lord will grant the exit without celebrating the referendum , at less of week i will put tariffs and cut-off the  UK right's to CEE.

Consequences, the europe will lose the UK market's , but the UK will lose the importants trading corporations from the London City ,and these will go to Frankfurt ,and other place from europe.
the last  big factories and corporations  that still stayed, maybe they will move out the UK to Ireland or Spain . The worst of all, the devaluation of the pound sterling to 40%.

How many time could the british government support without the people will go to revolution?

One thing to British,anybody is indispensable   

https://youtu.be/T1L6jQ0Pfrw?t=1m8s (https://youtu.be/T1L6jQ0Pfrw?t=1m8s)





Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 11, 2016, 08:38:35 pm
Quote
I would take the US as the gold standard

For what?

For its welfare programs? for its corrupt politicians and ever expanding governments? highly charged political environment? non-union employees can be defined as union members by government decree (NJ)? or people of Indian and Chinese heritage can be defined out of "Minority" (CA)? ...

If anyone told me 20 years ago someone like Sanders would give Clinton a run for her money in the US, I would have laughed him/her off.

If you want to know as a society how far left we have come, take out the two parties platforms in the 1950s or the 1960s and compare them vs. now. The republican party today is far more liberal than the democratic party then.

That should tell you all you need to know about the US.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 11, 2016, 08:39:52 pm
values, etc change rapidly so there is little use in preserving those.

This is nihilism.

Brexit, non brexit, thermonuclear war, genocide ... all equally valid under given sets of values.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 11, 2016, 08:43:30 pm
Quote
Consequences, the europe will lose the UK market's , but the UK will lose the importants trading corporations from the London City ,and these will go to Frankfurt ,and other place from europe.
the last  big factories and corporations  that still stayed, maybe they will move out the UK to Ireland or Spain .

Dire concequencies. The UK was such a barbaric place before EU came to her rescue, :)

Quote
The worst of all, the devaluation of the pound sterling to 40%.

Empty words that you don't even believe, unless you put all your money, your parents money, your kids education funds, your retirement, and mortgaged your house to bet on that devaluation.

Making predictions is easy, even a monkey can do it. it is another story to put your money where your mouth is.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 11, 2016, 08:51:56 pm

thermonuclear war, genocide

We've only been told those will happen if we vote to leave.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: daqq on June 11, 2016, 08:53:23 pm
Frankly, I am surprised how much the anti Brexit argument are focused on economic benefits, ignoring aspects such as sovereignty, culture, history, tradition and values,
Culture, history, values, etc change rapidly so there is little use in preserving those. A country is nothing more than a piece of land and the people in it listening to a centralised government. Maybe you feel connected to your fellow countrymen but that is all made up to keep you quiet. The 'us-them' thinking pattern is a very easy way to control people.
Dunno, I for one would very much like my future grand kids not to be forced to conform to, say, medieval dress codes and get stoned/beheaded if they don't, all in the name of someones imaginary friend imported from the Middle East. As such I'd very much prefer to leave our current way of life intact.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Howardlong on June 11, 2016, 08:58:57 pm
the UK will lose the importants trading corporations from the London City ,and these will go to Frankfurt

Exactly the same fears were spread 20 years ago about the UK not adopting the Euro, and for some time I remember it was quite unsettling in the City until it was realised that it made bugger all difference, in fact quite the opposite.

I was never in favour of the Euro either, and that was the same thin-end-of-the-wedge concerns which have since come to bear fruit.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 11, 2016, 09:21:01 pm
Frankly, I am surprised how much the anti Brexit argument are focused on economic benefits, ignoring aspects such as sovereignty, culture, history, tradition and values,
Culture, history, values, etc change rapidly so there is little use in preserving those. A country is nothing more than a piece of land and the people in it listening to a centralised government. Maybe you feel connected to your fellow countrymen but that is all made up to keep you quiet. The 'us-them' thinking pattern is a very easy way to control people.
Dunno, I for one would very much like my future grand kids not to be forced to conform to, say, medieval dress codes and get stoned/beheaded if they don't, all in the name of someones imaginary friend
Interestingly the western society wasn't very different only a couple of hundred years ago. Therefore I'm inclined to believe the people from the middle-east will adapt rapidly. After all the way the western society is now is much safer to live in and in the end people want to feel safe and raise their kids.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 11, 2016, 09:58:35 pm


...
I'm inclined to believe the people from the middle-east will adapt rapidly...

Good luck.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 11, 2016, 10:02:03 pm
Exactly the same fears were spread 20 years ago about the UK not adopting the Euro, and for some time I remember it was quite unsettling in the City until it was realised that it made bugger all difference, in fact quite the opposite.
Perhaps but you have to ask yourself whether the UK could have done better with the euro instead of the pound. When dealing with UK suppliers and customers there is always the risk of the exchange rate going up and down so I very much like to deal in euro. Therefore I'd rather deal with a German supplier than one from the UK. Either way someone has to pay for the exchange rate risk which is where a supplier in a Euro-country definitely has an advantage.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 11, 2016, 10:10:23 pm
Interestingly the western society wasn't very different only a couple of hundred years ago. Therefore I'm inclined to believe the people from the middle-east will adapt rapidly. After all the way the western society is now is much safer to live in and in the end people want to feel safe and raise their kids.

Hand outs don't seem to promote progressiveness in Islamic society, not in the west, not in the oil rich nations. Quite the contrary in fact, they use the free time to become more orthodox and procreate. Much the same behavior can be seen with Haredi, though with less violence to the host society if left alone.

In the end they might reinvent themselves, in the mean time they will demand welfare and wage jihad.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 11, 2016, 10:12:09 pm
Frankly, I am surprised how much the anti Brexit argument are focused on economic benefits, ignoring aspects such as sovereignty, culture, history, tradition and values,
Culture, history, values, etc change rapidly so there is little use in preserving those. A country is nothing more than a piece of land and the people in it listening to a centralised government. Maybe you feel connected to your fellow countrymen but that is all made up to keep you quiet. The 'us-them' thinking pattern is a very easy way to control people.
Dunno, I for one would very much like my future grand kids not to be forced to conform to, say, medieval dress codes and get stoned/beheaded if they don't, all in the name of someones imaginary friend
Interestingly the western society wasn't very different only a couple of hundred years ago. Therefore I'm inclined to believe the people from the middle-east will adapt rapidly. After all the way the western society is now is much safer to live in and in the end people want to feel safe and raise their kids.
You should visit some Muslim ghetto in France to see how well they adapt.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: IanB on June 11, 2016, 10:22:14 pm
Therefore I'm inclined to believe the people from the middle-east will adapt rapidly.

Actually, the opposite seems to be true. When comparing values between Pakistani immigrants living in the UK and Pakistan itself, it appears that Pakistan has moved on while the immigrants in the UK have been holding fast to the values they brought with them decades ago.

We can see a parallel of this in the way that the USA is still influenced by religious and cultural values from 17th century Europe in a way that is unrecognizable to Europeans from modern times.

It will take people hundreds of years to adapt, and most of us can't wait that long.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 11, 2016, 10:23:02 pm
Interestingly the western society wasn't very different only a couple of hundred years ago. Therefore I'm inclined to believe the people from the middle-east will adapt rapidly. After all the way the western society is now is much safer to live in and in the end people want to feel safe and raise their kids.

Christianity went through a reformation which transformed European culture, that's never ever going to happen to Islam.
The people trotting off to join ISIS and expecting burqas to be worn are not 1st generation immigrants, they are the 3rd generation lot.
If Western society suited them then there wouldn't be a problem, the fact that closed Muslim ghettos exist in every European city says otherwise.
If our schools and cultural/civic values suited them then there wouldn't be 140 Islamic Faith schools in the UK, schools that regularly get condemned by Ofsted as promoting an extreme form of Islam.

This is the problem, the Left sees the immigration of a minority religious group and expects it to be exactly like when the Sikhs arrived from Uganda. They fundamentally do not understand the medieval culture these people bring with them.
The same Socialist/Marxist Left wing party in the UK has a large number of high profile anti-Semitic members, Islam is a natural bedfellow for them. That's a fast route to political power for a religion that's essentially a Totalitarian political system in it's own right.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 11, 2016, 10:30:24 pm
The same Socialist/Marxist Left wing party in the UK has a large number of high profile anti-Semitic members

They were mostly just anti-Israel, they become anti-semites after enough character assassination comes their way for having that view. If you are going to be called one regardless why even try to stick your neck out and piss off Muslim voters by battling proper anti-semitism?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 11, 2016, 10:35:09 pm
They were mostly just anti-Israel, they become anti-semites after enough character assassination comes their way for having that view.

There's a number of Muslim MPs who "say" they are only anti-Israel because of the Palestinian issue, the fact is many Arabs hate the Palestinians. They simply hate the Israelis because they are Jews, just as they hate the Jews in France and the Jews in the UK.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 11, 2016, 10:49:00 pm
Be that as it may, if you keep calling the bleeding hearts who are true believers about stuff like BDS and right of return anti-semites you are going to turn it into a self-fulfilling prophecy. Don't drive them into the arms of the Muslims, it's not like there aren't plenty of jews saying the same thing.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 11, 2016, 10:54:14 pm
Quote
We can see a parallel of this in the way that the USA is still influenced by religious and cultural values from 17th century Europe in a way that is unrecognizable to Europeans from modern times.

So since the 17th century, those "enlightened" Europeans still managed to produce the only two world wars this planet has seen, a few genocides, a holocaust, a dude named Hitler, some really good propagandists, almost got wiped out by the Nazis, and then by the Red Army, if not for those "unrecognizable" and barbaric Americans, and still got their cities connected by ghettos and no-go zones. Didn't I hear a recent story of a Paris waitress getting attacked for serving "religiously in-appropriate" drinks on Ramadan?

I would rather that you save your "enlightenment" for yourself.

:)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 11, 2016, 11:04:15 pm
I would rather that you save your "enlightenment" for yourself.
:)

I don't think it was meant as a wholly negative cultural quirk, because all it boils down to in the USA is a political debate over abortion and dinosaurs.

In the UK our people get their throats slit and our children raped over this retarded medieval shit.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rolycat on June 11, 2016, 11:43:21 pm
Quote
We can see a parallel of this in the way that the USA is still influenced by religious and cultural values from 17th century Europe in a way that is unrecognizable to Europeans from modern times.

So since the 17th century, those "enlightened" Europeans still managed to produce the only two world wars this planet has seen, a few genocides, a holocaust, a dude named Hitler, some really good propagandists, almost got wiped out by the Nazis, and then by the Red Army, if not for those "unrecognizable" and barbaric Americans, and still got their cities connected by ghettos and no-go zones. Didn't I hear a recent story of a Paris waitress getting attacked for serving "religiously in-appropriate" drinks on Ramadan?

I would rather that you save your "enlightenment" for yourself.

 :)

No you wouldn't.

Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were active participants in the Age of Enlightenment in Europe, and its ideals were incorporated into the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States.

The good old US of A has also engaged in one or two dubious practices since the 17th century, in case you have forgotten.

Do remove that sizeable chip from your shoulder and cease belabouring Europeans with America's not entirely altruistic entry into the Second World War.

 :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: chris_leyson on June 12, 2016, 12:25:27 am
Since the industrial revolution entire communities have been built to serve an industry, be it mining iron ore or coal, steel manufacture, ship building and so on. These new communities were mostly made up from "migrants" from the agricultural industry or from other sectors and from other countries. When the old heavy industries disappear and nothing has replaced them due to a lack of long term government planning and investment, people are going to move on, well at least those who can will move on.

Fast forward to the 50's and 60's, manufacturing industrial boom, import cheap labour from the West Indies and India to fulfill manufacturing capacity. Hence that's why we have very well established and integrated West Indian and Asian communities.
In time, the manufacturing industries that needed to import Commonwealth citizens in the first place have disappeared and a lack of investment and long term planning now leaves these communities with nothing.

It's probably the same scenario through much of post industrial Europe especially eastern Europe now that the Soviet Union has collapsed and left poorer nations to fend for themselves. It's no wonder people migrate and the disenfranchised become extremist.

I think our economic problems are our own making and very little do do with EU membership. In or out you still have to address the issues of long term planning and a decline in manufacturing.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 12, 2016, 12:41:47 am
I think our economic problems are our own making and very little do do with EU membership. In or out you still have to address the issues of long term planning and a decline in manufacturing.
At least Thatcher (finally) got rid of a lot of labour intensive subsidized industries in the 80's and getting the tax system back on the rails. I still recall the massive riots on the news. The decline of UK manufacturing also has a lot to do with lack of quality. UK built cars are infamous for that and a prime example of how easy it is to sink an entire industry due to people not being motivated to do a good job.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 12, 2016, 12:56:19 am
Quote
I think our economic problems are our own making and very little do do with EU membership.

A more productive society will need to export to realize its competitive advantages and to build-up wealth. Unfortunately, two things necessarily happen:

1) as wealth goes up, the marginal utility of wealth goes down and people tend to not want to work as hard. That means their productivity levels off. It also means that people in poorer countries tend to want to work harder and becomes more productive.

2) as free trade expands, it exposes you to competition from other parts of the world. This puts particular pressure on the less mobile resources - the labor, as capital is more fluid.

when you combine those two together, you will conclude that a) over a long-period of time, quality of life tends to level off all over the globe. b) people on the lower-end of value-add will get hurt.

Thus, this arm race for middle income families to send their kids to good schools to advance or to keep pace with competition.

In the end, the tiger-moms are actually quite smart.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 12, 2016, 05:36:24 am
Quote
At least Thatcher (finally) got rid of a lot of labour intensive subsidized industries in the 80's and getting the tax system back on the rails. I still recall the massive riots on the news. The decline of UK manufacturing also has a lot to do with lack of quality. UK built cars are infamous for that and a prime example of how easy it is to sink an entire industry due to people not being motivated to do a good job

That the people were dismotivated was guilt of the labor union, there are that remember that the british labour union were more strongest than the french and Spanish.
Then the bussinessmans began to close or gave to death the corporation because it was impossible to achieve a economic goal. 

Simply ,the british suffered the same than Spanish when Franco died, and the vertical labour union(Falange y las JONS) became to horizontal labour union (CCOO and UGT), they began to strikes and boycotts
than the spanish bussinesman decided to close the factories and corporations. Beetwen 1975-1982  the 30% of the factories and corporations closed and the unemployed grew up until 2 Millon of the people withou job, when before hadn't unemployed.

And the same history will repeat with the french.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: FreddyVictor on June 12, 2016, 06:38:27 am
<snip>
And the same history will repeat with the french.
speaking of the French, saw this recently (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/07/france-shuns-europe-as-brexit-revolt-spreads/)
Quote
France shuns Europe as Brexit revolt spreads

could be a 'domino effect' ....
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Karel on June 12, 2016, 07:50:28 am
Therefore I'm inclined to believe the people from the middle-east will adapt rapidly. After all the way the western society is now is much safer to live in and in the end people want to feel safe and raise their kids.

On the contrary, people from the mid-east tend to radicalize more and more.
Try to walk around dressed as an orthodox jew and see what happens.

Historically, jews are the canary in the coal mine.
When a society goes down the drain, it starts with discriminating and killing jews.
You see it everywhere now in Europe. There's no synagogue without some military with big guns to protect it.
It's a bloody shame.


Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: daqq on June 12, 2016, 10:17:44 am
Quote
Therefore I'm inclined to believe the people from the middle-east will adapt rapidly.
That's great! When that happens call me. Until then, would they mind very much going through their "lets implement medieval law for everyone and explode" period some place far far away?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 12, 2016, 10:32:59 am
Quote
You see it everywhere now in Europe. There's no synagogue without some military with big guns to protect it.
It's a bloody shame.

So hundreds of years of "enlightenment" later, those "enlightened" Europeans are just as barbaric as they were?

Well, doesn't sound those years of "enlightenment" have done much for them. :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 12, 2016, 10:35:03 am
(http://x3.cdn03.imgwykop.pl/c3201142/comment_SoinTfsGllC4GKoHw4QcfHqqYBSf3ZlF.jpg)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 12, 2016, 10:35:59 am
Quote
You see it everywhere now in Europe. There's no synagogue without some military with big guns to protect it.
It's a bloody shame.

So hundreds of years of "enlightenment" later, those "enlightened" Europeans are just as barbaric as they were?

Well, doesn't sound those years of "enlightenment" have done much for them. :)

You may have misread. The message says 'protect'.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: RGB255_0_0 on June 12, 2016, 10:39:31 am
(http://x3.cdn03.imgwykop.pl/c3201142/comment_SoinTfsGllC4GKoHw4QcfHqqYBSf3ZlF.jpg)
I suspect this is satire but there are people who actually think retardedly like this.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 12, 2016, 11:05:14 am
As of how it could directly affect me or others dealing with electronics parts, I guess Farnell will move most of it's business from the UK it to their Liege facility or build another facility in EU. Otherwise it will just kill their business. I will think twice before ordering to later deal with customs or pay additional fees of 7x of the delivery cost so UPS deal with customs themselves, still would need ton of paperwork. Also no next day delivery.
Guess there will be no point of buying anything other than small cheap things on on ebay from UK sellers.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Nauris on June 12, 2016, 11:29:47 am
As of how it could directly affect me or others dealing with electronics parts, I guess Farnell will move most of it's business from the UK it to their Liege facility or build another facility in EU. Otherwise it will just kill their business. I will think twice before ordering to later deal with customs or pay additional fees of 7x of the delivery cost so UPS deal with customs themselves, still would need ton of paperwork. Also no next day delivery.
Guess there will be no point of buying anything other than small cheap things on on ebay from UK sellers.

If Digi-key can deliver their products in two or three days from USA (not member of EU) to my door duties paid, without paperwork and VAT invoiced later I would be suprised if Farnell cannot do same.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Koen on June 12, 2016, 11:30:08 am
I fail to see what it would change for Farnell.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Jeroen3 on June 12, 2016, 11:43:05 am
Not much will change. It will be economic suicide to immediately start taxing all exports.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: kaz911 on June 12, 2016, 12:09:04 pm


...
I'm inclined to believe the people from the middle-east will adapt rapidly...

Good luck.

After living in the ME for 10 years - I can say that even the Middle Eastern Tribes (yes that is what they are) - are MORE racist than ANYTHING i have seen elsewhere. Even among / towards other local "Tribes" - which is why you do not see the rich middle eastern countries take ANY refuges despite many from Syria could walk there in much shorter time.

To live in a ME oil country - you get VISA for maximum 3 years - and you have to be able to support yourself and have a sponsor. To get family in you need to earn above a threshold to support the family. Then every 3 years - your VISA needs renewal.  To setup a local business you need a LOCAL sponsor who will own 51% of your business - unless you setup in a free-zone. But if you are in a free-zone you can't do business "locally" but have to sell via a local Agent (again minimum 51% owned by a "local") - to apply for trademarks - business have to be 100% owned by a local! A 3 year VISA can cost about 1000 GBP to get done. So why do we not do that in the EU?

1. Max 3 year VISA's - can be renewed but never for more than 3 years at a time - and never permanent
2. Charge for VISA's
3. Business only in 51% co-op with a "local"

The rich oil countries are flooded with people from other Arab speaking countries  - who can make good money there (Palestinian, Lebanese, Syrian, Moroccan, Jordanian  etc) - but the rich states will not take people who can not earn their own living. They all head for Europe where we take them in at a huge cost.

But now - all the ME refugees talk about - is how lovely it is to live in the EU where you don't have to work for a living and everything is given to you. Workshops are held in "local EU countries laws" - so upon arrival they know what to say - and what to ask for. (or demand)

Yes - I am all in for helping people in need - but lets help them closer to their home - and just because they get entry (VISA) it should only become permanent in extraordinary circumstances. Lets help the ones in real need - where it is cost effective and we can provide for them closer to home - so WHEN war stops - it is an easier trip home. We can build houses and villages for 10-20% of the cost in Turkey - and feed, educate and care for them for another 10-20% of what it costs to have them come to EU and house and feed them here.

But EU representatives does simply not get it at all.

/rant over


Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 12, 2016, 12:42:00 pm
Yes - I am all in for helping people in need - but lets help them closer to their home - and just because they get entry (VISA) it should only become permanent in extraordinary circumstances. Lets help the ones in real need - where it is cost effective and we can provide for them closer to home - so WHEN war stops - it is an easier trip home. We can build houses and villages for 10-20% of the cost in Turkey - and feed, educate and care for them for another 10-20% of what it costs to have them come to EU and house and feed them here.
No way EU should give any money to Turkey. Because Turkey is one of the main reasons why the war in Syria and this flood of people exists in the first place. Actually Turkey is blackmailing EU and EU acts like if it is Turkey's bitch which is a real shame.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 12, 2016, 01:59:33 pm
Europe, ridden with political correctness and guilt, lost the ability to protect itself against an inversion. This disease is now spreading to the US.

As for the UK, you built something good for yourself. Protect it as much as you can, just as you ancestors did.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 12, 2016, 02:02:13 pm
Quote
You see it everywhere now in Europe. There's no synagogue without some military with big guns to protect it.
It's a bloody shame.

So hundreds of years of "enlightenment" later, those "enlightened" Europeans are just as barbaric as they were?

Europe was fine, it's what Merkyl has chosen to import by the million that has created problems.

I see last night Obama has imported the same issue into Orlando. His naive mistake is going to generate headlines like that for decades to come.

All this was so avoidable, Spain has a teenage unemployment rate of 45%. They should have invited them all over to Germany, France, UK and Sweden, offered them free training and housing.
That would have been cheaper in the long run and have created zero cultural friction in all those host countries.


but lets help them closer to their home - We can build houses and villages for 10-20% of the cost in Turkey - and feed, educate and care for them for another 10-20% of what it costs to have them come to EU and house and feed them here.
This was what Cameron was doing, it was a great plan.
I reckon if Meryl hadn't gone insane then this Brexit thing would be a non issue, but people see what happened in Sweden and Germany and are scared, they want to get away from her and the destruction she has initiated for Europe.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 12, 2016, 02:28:58 pm
All this was so avoidable, Spain has a teenage unemployment rate of 45%. They should have invited them all over to Germany, France, UK and Sweden, offered them free training and housing.

"He's from Barcelona".

;-)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tandy on June 12, 2016, 02:36:43 pm

"He's from Barcelona".

;-)

"Keh?"
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 12, 2016, 02:37:33 pm
"He's from Barcelona".
;-)

Sorry, nope,
but for me I'm just pointing out the bleeding obvious.

UK and Germany have an ageing population and we need a few million teenagers to come and live here, Spain has a few million teenagers twiddling their thumbs, and we already like the Spanish.
There is an obvious synergy here right?

But noooooooooooooooooo, insane Merkel would rather import a million followers of the world's pariah religion, shortly after we've bombed all their cities to dust.



Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 12, 2016, 02:38:28 pm
I think our economic problems are our own making and very little do do with EU membership. In or out you still have to address the issues of long term planning and a decline in manufacturing.
At least Thatcher (finally) got rid of a lot of labour intensive subsidized industries in the 80's and getting the tax system back on the rails. I still recall the massive riots on the news. The decline of UK manufacturing also has a lot to do with lack of quality. UK built cars are infamous for that and a prime example of how easy it is to sink an entire industry due to people not being motivated to do a good job.

And a lack of investment.
And shitty management /leaders in both the companies and unions.
Lets also remember that the Unions in Germany were much bigger and stronger than in the UK.
Germany had a fraction of the problems the UK had with their industry.
Oh and I seem to recall that the most subsidised industry in europe at the moment is the finacial sector.  :D

Did I mention that the Nissan car plant in the UK is one of the best they have in the world.

3DB  :D
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 12, 2016, 02:54:47 pm
Quote
To live in a ME oil country ...

Seems to be a really good policy, and they execute it to the letter of the law, unlike many western countries.

Quote
But now - all the ME refugees talk about - is how lovely it is to live in the EU where you don't have to work for a living and everything is given to you. Workshops are held in "local EU countries laws" - so upon arrival they know what to say - and what to ask for. (or demand)

thanks to politicians the voters helped elect.

Quote
But EU representatives does simply not get it at all.

Because those guys don't bear the costs of their generosity - you do. If it is their wives' throats that got slit, their kids that got raped, their bank accounts that got drained, their neighborhood that got burned, ..., I'm pretty sure they would have reacted quite differently.

They are basically inviting complete strangers to a party at your house.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 12, 2016, 03:02:36 pm
Did I mention that the Nissan car plant in the UK is one of the best they have in the world.
^ This shows that

Quote
And shitty management /leaders in both the companies and unions.
^ This is one of the more significant causes of the decline in the UK motor industry.

I'm not quite sure why we were (are?) so shit at management - possibly there was a class thing going on but we were.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tandy on June 12, 2016, 03:18:23 pm
Personally I think the reason the car industry died in the UK was meddling by government. Companies that succeed are not run by bureaucrats or members of the old boys network, sooner or later that kind of company is left in the dust by proper business people.

I live in Oxford that once had a major motor industry with Morris motors, this then became Austin Rover and later BMC. While the state run BMC failed miserably jobs in the BMW mini plant are now sought after. Bureaucrats have this innate desire to regulate things and micromanage creating an environment that discourages innovation.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 12, 2016, 03:45:50 pm
I think the BMC Mini could be described as an innovative vehicle.

 ;D



Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: poorchava on June 12, 2016, 04:16:44 pm
(http://x3.cdn03.imgwykop.pl/c3201142/comment_SoinTfsGllC4GKoHw4QcfHqqYBSf3ZlF.jpg)
Somebody got the order of colors on the polish flag wrong lol. That's the flag of Monaco ???? And why are Czechs portrayed as not liking muslims? I actually find it that Czech people are one of the most friendly nations ever, and to anyone. Bad satire I must say
????

Sent from my HTC One M8s using Tapatalk.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tandy on June 12, 2016, 04:22:14 pm
I think the BMC Mini could be described as an innovative vehicle.

 ;D
Selling it for less than it cost to make was the biggest innovation they came up with.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 12, 2016, 04:31:10 pm
I think the BMC Mini could be described as an innovative vehicle.

 ;D

Some of the top small wheel and folding bikes inventors are British, including Alex Moulton (Moulton), Mark Sanders (Strida), and Andrew Ritchie (Brompton).  IIRC, Alex Moulton also designed the suspension of the original Mini (which is a small wheel car).

My wife and I are big fans of small wheel folding bikes and we always have two in the trunk of the family car. We do have a Moulton and a Brompton but not a Strida which is less suitable for long distance rides.

How It's Made had an episode on the Brompton which is IIRC still manufactured in the UK. The rider at the beginning of the video is the inventor, Ritchie. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtR56OdIVCk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtR56OdIVCk)

With all those UK great bike designs, the market leader are still from the far east (e.g. Dahon china).

Edit: a top of the line Moulton bike costs £15,500.  This is not the model we have ;-)

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 12, 2016, 04:43:54 pm
And why are Czechs portrayed as not liking muslims? I actually find it that Czech people are one of the most friendly nations ever, and to anyone. Bad satire I must say
????

Because there are no Muslims in Czechoslovakia, maybe 20K or so, they know absolutely nothing about the issues.

Luckily their president is the only leader in Europe with a clue: "The experience of Western European countries which have ghettos and excluded localities shows that the integration of the Muslim community is practically impossible. Let them have their culture in their countries and not take it to Europe, otherwise it will end up like Cologne"

As the Arabs in Olomouc recently pointed out by screaming at the locals, “In 15 years you will be our slaves”

Do you really want that inside your country?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: daqq on June 12, 2016, 04:55:48 pm
Quote
Because there are no Muslims in Czechoslovakia, maybe 20K or so, they know absolutely nothing about the issues.
A bit of a correction: Czechoslovakia has been gone for 23 years ( see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_Czechoslovakia ), being split into the Czech republic and Slovakia (my country, the one being portrayed by the ball with the axe and the eye patch for some reason), two completely separate political entities. You are referring to the Czech president in this. Our one is quite as clueless as most.

As to not knowing absolutely nothing about the issue, I would disagree, we have lots of experience with a group of people of whom too many cannot be assimilated (not for lack of trying on our part) and what joys having such a community brings. Though ours are not doped up on religion on top of everything.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 12, 2016, 04:58:53 pm
Because there are no Muslims in Czechoslovakia, maybe 20K or so, they know absolutely nothing about the issues.

Luckily their president is the only leader in Europe with a clue: "The experience of Western European countries which have ghettos and excluded localities shows that the integration of the Muslim community is practically impossible. Let them have their culture in their countries and not take it to Europe, otherwise it will end up like Cologne"
It is interesting to see how you undermine your point this bad!  :palm: First saying someone knows nothing and then quoting such a person to make a point.

For a country it is very important to make sure everybody has a fair chance to get a good education,a job and keep taps on what is going on within certain groups. In the NL we have far less problems with minorities due to various programs aimed at getting everyone to be(come) a functional member of society and continuously improving these programs. Oh, and don't pull any sh*t in the NL because you'll be used for target practise as some Moluccan train hijackers found out in 1977:
(http://www.inenomassen.nl/pics/kaping_depunt/trein_kogels.jpg)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 12, 2016, 05:02:45 pm
A bit of a correction: Czechoslovakia has been gone for 23 years
Ah, my bad, thank you for the correction, I was unaware :)

It is interesting to see how you undermine your point this bad!  :palm: First saying someone knows nothing and then quoting such a person to make a point.
No, I was suggesting that a population that hadn't been exposed to the joys of enforced multiculturalism with islam may be unaware of what that means for their communities. I would expect a president to be more aware.

Look at Sweden, it was possibly once the nicest country in Europe with a fascinating culture that everyone in the UK has admired for decades. Now it's the poster child for cultural genocide.
Why? Insane leaders who conceal the truth and a media that does the same.

The UK has a zillion cultures, everyone gets along - this culture is different and nobody has been allowed to say this - until the issue boils over and suddenly we are faced with leaving Europe. Nobody truly wants this, we just want to stop being ignored.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 12, 2016, 05:21:15 pm
Quote
As the Arabs in Olomouc recently pointed out by screaming at the locals, “In 15 years you will be our slaves”

very soon, europeans will be minorities in their own countries and they will find out for themselves what multiculturalism really means.

The fear in the UK and the US and across some parts of Europe is real.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 12, 2016, 06:22:10 pm
For north-european and center-european the muslim theme is very recent, but at my region has been discussed since 2008.

So much that created a politic party (PxC)at a Barcelona village(Vic) with the goal to terminate with the  muslims benefits (burka,hijab and social bonus) .

When the PxC achieved the second place for mayoralty from Vic with the promise to ban  the Burka at public place .
 
Automatlly all the  major cities that controlled by the PSC party began to legislate versus the hijab and burka at public place.

Electoral spot  of 2011 of PLATAFORMA PER CATALUNYA(PxC) - Josep Anglada
https://youtu.be/BKr9yxDDqr0 (https://youtu.be/BKr9yxDDqr0)

Anglada scream : "the vast majority of immigrants on our home  are rabble,rabble ,rabble"

https://youtu.be/Llu6ntrOF0s?t=1m18s (https://youtu.be/Llu6ntrOF0s?t=1m18s)

Anglada vs Mohammed -Catalunya Opina

https://youtu.be/a6k8bdZp6nI
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Karel on June 12, 2016, 06:31:01 pm
In the NL we have far less problems with minorities ...

There are lots of problems in The Netherlands with minorities, specially with moroccans.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 12, 2016, 06:41:50 pm
For north-european and center-european the muslim theme is very recent, but at my region has been discussed since 2008.

So much that created a politic party (PxC)at a Barcelona village(Vic) with the goal to terminate with the  muslims benefits (burka,hijab and social bonus) .

I am sure it was discussed much earlier at your region.  ;-)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_Caliphate


(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5b/Umayyad750ADloc.png/1024px-Umayyad750ADloc.png)

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 12, 2016, 06:47:19 pm
Quote
There are lots of problems in The Netherlands with minorities

How many minorities  have you the Nerthelands?

Because we have problems with the arabs(moroccans,algerians) ,with africans(Nigerans,Camerun and Senegalese), with south-american(Colombian , Dominican and equatorians), with european(romain ,gipsies romain ,albano-kosovar,georgians)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 12, 2016, 07:20:44 pm
Quote
I am sure it was discussed much earlier at your region.

Quote
Pero el nuevo gobernador musulmán, Al-Hurr ibn Abd ar-Rahman al-Thaqafi, reforzado con las medidas antes citadas, realizó sucesivas campañas, desde el otoño de 716 y en los dos años siguientes, contra este reducto visigodo. Desde Zaragoza atacó y sometió las ciudades de Huesca, Barbastro, Lérida, Tarragona, Barcelona y, finalmente, Gerona. La resistencia de Tarragona debió ser tenaz pues, tras su conquista, los musulmanes dieron muerte a toda la población que había sobrevivido al asedio, y destruyeron la ciudad, incluidas sus iglesias y numerosos monumentos.

But the new Muslim governor, Al-Hurr ibn Abd al-Rahman al-Thaqafi, reinforced with the measures before quoted , he carried out successive campaigns, from the autumn of 716 and in the next two years, against this Visigoth stronghold. From Zaragoza he attacked and subdued the cities of Huesca, Barbastro, Lleida, Tarragona, Barcelona and finally Gerona.
 Tarragona (significant capital during Empire Rome)resistance had to be tough because, after its conquest, the Muslims killed the entire population that had survived the siege, and destroyed the city, including its numerous churches and monuments.

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquista_musulmana_de_la_pen%C3%ADnsula_ib%C3%A9rica (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquista_musulmana_de_la_pen%C3%ADnsula_ib%C3%A9rica)

Furthermore Tarragona remained depopulated and no-man's land for 4 centuries until the  year 1116 when the Condes de Barcelona reconquered the city, and they declared the  city as "destroyed and  abandoned  , without cultives neither habitant  (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principado_de_Tarragona (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principado_de_Tarragona)).
 
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: NivagSwerdna on June 12, 2016, 07:44:51 pm
Please can we get this thread back to BrExit? 

The issue isn't any particular race/culture, those are big issues but not primarily a BrExit concern, the issue is UNCONTROLLED freedom of movement regardless of race/religion.
Unemployment in Greece, Spain, low living standards in newly joined countries, .... lots of pressure on migration.

David Cameron is now resorting to scaring grannies into thinking their pensions are at risk, as a one time Conservative voter I now regard him as a lying scum bag, I hope my fellow citizens rid us of him ASAP.

To remain is insane.


(https://grrrgraphics.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/brexit_ben_garrison.jpg?w=640&h=458)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 12, 2016, 08:02:36 pm
... the issue is UNCONTROLLED freedom of movement regardless of race/religion.

Care to explain?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: fubar.gr on June 12, 2016, 08:37:13 pm
As to not knowing absolutely nothing about the issue, I would disagree, we have lots of experience with a group of people of whom too many cannot be assimilated (not for lack of trying on our part) and what joys having such a community brings. Though ours are not doped up on religion on top of everything.

Gypsies?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 12, 2016, 08:37:52 pm
the issue is UNCONTROLLED freedom of movement regardless of race/religion.

Personally I'm OK with the uncontrolled immigration of Jewish Scientists and Polish carpenters.
Goats herders with AK47's from Allahbangistan, no, they can all naff off.
If you can't build a stable country entirely because of your chosen religion, then what the hell use are you to a European country?

Accept people who are probably OK, reject people who have a 1,500 year history of being violent supremacists. It's no more insightful than a Trump policy, but if it had been applied to America in time then 50 LGBT people would still be around today.

The only thing more dangerous are Progressive Liberals who look the other way.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 12, 2016, 08:39:45 pm
Quote
For north-european and center-european the muslim theme is very recent, but at my region has been discussed since 2008.

Going back more into the history, you will find more experience with muslim.

Quote
When the PxC achieved the second place for mayoralty from Vic with the promise to ban  the Burka at public place .

it is wrong to ban expression, verbal or via fashion choices. people should have the right to say what they believe, no matter how offensive it may be. The same bur burka.

as long as they don't violate the law and respect others' rights. Otherwise, the full force of the law should apply.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 12, 2016, 08:40:32 pm
Not much will change. It will be economic suicide to immediately start taxing all exports.

It is, indeed, quite possible that this would be true.

Given that the UK is only barely "in" anyway, a rapid negotiation of a Norwegian style agreement to access the single market would, arguably, not be a big change.

The problem I have here is that we loose participation influence in Europe without any of the gains that are claimed for leaving - why, exactly, would we want to do that?

If you actually want to block free movement of people, make up our own rules on trade, stop contributing to European finances etc then we have to distance ourselves much further from Europe - that approach also has its problems. For one thing it may well destabilise an increasingly fragile Union. With all of the problems that face the world at present the last thing we want is an unstable Europe on our doorstep.

The Brexit campaign seems to miss the fact that we live in a closed system so it is rather hard not to be caught out by inintended repercussions from your actions.

The Middle East is a mess but it is something of a separate issue - except for the stress it puts on the union.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: R_Gtx on June 12, 2016, 08:45:37 pm
To my mind, Brexit can be likened to divorce from a bullying, lying, spendthrift, moreover a partner who steadfastly refuses to mend their ways. Like all breakups, there will initially be some acrimony and pecuniary penalties, but they will soon be overcome, and in time forgotten as Britain forges her way into the future, footloose and fancy free. Maybe the EU will see the error of its ways, I sincerely hope it does for the sake of those remaining countries, who do not follow suit with their own exit.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 12, 2016, 09:01:10 pm
it is wrong to ban expression, verbal or via fashion choices. people should have the right to say what they believe, no matter how offensive it may be. The same bur burka.

Would you allow the KKK to run around with their white pointy robes on, or would you accept that black people are going to find that a bit unsettling?

Clothing can also be a symbol of cultural pressure, and if your community sees women not wearing a burka as slutty, then you don't have a lot of choice.
Avoiding unwanted cultural pressure over dress is partly why we retain school uniforms, so poor people are not left out.

I am not OK with people choosing to talk to me through a letterbox, it is offensive (to my cultural background)

(edit:)
-

Democracy seems to fail when the only choices presented are just different versions of the same disaster.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 12, 2016, 09:15:40 pm
As to not knowing absolutely nothing about the issue, I would disagree, we have lots of experience with a group of people of whom too many cannot be assimilated (not for lack of trying on our part) and what joys having such a community brings. Though ours are not doped up on religion on top of everything.

Gypsies?

Australians.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: NivagSwerdna on June 12, 2016, 09:31:12 pm
... the issue is UNCONTROLLED freedom of movement regardless of race/religion.
Care to explain?
Simple, too many people.  No school places, no doctors appointments, no hospital places, too few houses, too many applicants chasing jobs.  The truth is that the public sector is drowning in debt so they can't expand (even if there was sufficient green-belt to decimate), so increasing numbers of people just leads to contention for services.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 12, 2016, 09:38:23 pm
Quote
Would you allow the KKK to run around with their white pointy robes on,

Absolutely, as we do today, in some 'un-enlightened' countries outside of the 'enlightened' europe, :)

Quote
or would you accept that black people are going to find that a bit unsettling?

Sure. But that's the price to pay for freedom.

Quote
Avoiding unwanted cultural pressure over dress is partly why we retain school uniforms, so poor people are not left out.

I don't know if that's the reason for school uniforms but if it is, it is the wrong reason.


Quote
I am not OK with people choosing to talk to me through a letterbox, it is offensive.

What if others outlaw your ability to think the way you do because somehow it is offensive for them that you think that way?

In a free country, you will have that freedom to think for yourself. I will defend your freedom to express anything, even if it is offensive to me.

A good example of JK Rowling's recent comments about Trump having the right to express his views no matter how offensive such views are to her.

If some members of a society has the ability to shut down speeches they consider "offensive", that's no longer a free society.

"free" really means free.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 12, 2016, 09:40:05 pm
Our biggest worry at the moment is that you don't vote for exit.
Or that you do vote for exit and then don't go.
The BrEXIT may be a big thing in the UK. Outside islands, we're watching football.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 12, 2016, 10:12:46 pm
Sure. But that's the price to pay for freedom.
It's not really a freedom worth having when you are surrounded by people who get up your nose.

Quote
I don't know if that's the reason for school uniforms but if it is, it is the wrong reason.
It's not the reason, it is just a reason

Quote
What if others outlaw your ability to think the way you do because somehow it is offensive for them that you think that way?
That's essentially already happening, it's the Lefts way of censoring debate. Issues are not decided on cultural values, but on a "correct" way of thinking.

Quote
In a free country, you will have that freedom to think for yourself. I will defend your freedom to express anything, even if it is offensive to me.
I believe in achieving the most happiness, so if I think someone's cultural expression is better expressed in a country other than mine, then I'm going to suggest they go there or don't come here in the first place.
I don't plan on adapting my way of life to accommodate the feelings of a retarded culture's sky pixie.

Quote
If some members of a society has the ability to shut down speeches they consider "offensive", that's no longer a free society.
Didn't the USA recently ban the confederate flag from being displayed?

It's one of the few countries with a list of constitutional rights, yet these are continuously being questioned and apparently may be partly revoked at any time. It's a free society until someone says otherwise, a Damocles sword I could do without.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: R_Gtx on June 12, 2016, 10:28:52 pm
It's one of the few countries with a list of constitutional rights, yet these are continuously being questioned and apparently may be partly revoked at any time. It's a free society until someone says otherwise, a Damocles sword I could do without.

Perhaps, Frank Zappa foresaw all this. From the allegorical rock opera:

Quote from: Joe's Garage (1979)
Our studies have shown that this horrible force is so dangerous to society at large that laws are being drawn up at this very moment to stop it forever!
Cruel and inhuman punishments are being carefully described in tiny paragraphs so they won't conflict with the Constitution (which, itself, is being modified in order to accommodate THE FUTURE)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: RGB255_0_0 on June 12, 2016, 10:46:14 pm
So many people with Britain First views in here that I'm not sure I'm in a forum for intellectuals but rather retarded Neanderthals.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 12, 2016, 10:52:41 pm
Outside islands, we're watching football.
Uhhhh.. no...  :'(
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: SL4P on June 12, 2016, 10:56:28 pm
What if France pulls out as well?
That would have to end the EU completely, or simply make Germany the centre of the 'rest of Europe'...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 12, 2016, 11:22:32 pm
What if France pulls out as well?
You have to ask yourself why the UK is on the verge of exiting the EU: it is the result of populistic politicians and not for solid economic reasons. It is very easy to blame politics for your own misery while you sit on your arse and expect to get paid every month. Creating a common enemy is a very easy trick for politicians who have no real solutions for any issue they bring up.

Time for a history lesson: The EU was preceeded by the EEC which was created in 1957 in order to streamline trade between the West European countries and the UK entered in 1973. Now think about how wise it is to throw something out which has worked for over 40 years. Due to increasing globalism it really is (more than ever) necessary for smaller countries to stick together.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Community
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 12, 2016, 11:43:09 pm
So many people with

If you want to hide behind a patronising generalist statement then that's fine, but to then assume a moral high ground simply because you live in Shoreditch?
Well, no.

 :popcorn:

Creating a common enemy is a very easy trick for politicians who have no real solutions for any issue they bring up.

I'm pretty sure every UK politician has avoided doing that?

Which is part of the problem, globalisation suits capitalism - any dissenting opinion of the 99% is irrelevant.

How do you quantify a cultural loss to a community that has changed beyond recognition, when every politician immediately and cynically re-frames your concern into an issue of sustainable funding instead, and then points the finger at the other guy.
Nobody cares about Cameron's benefit changes, it's a trivial amount of money. Nobody cares if Miliband thinks the NHS issue can be fixed if more money is thrown at it. Applying band aids and handing out victim compensation is not a fix while someone is still stabbing you in the face.
They are busily answering questions that nobody wants answered, because the actual concerns of working class people are conveniently being left off the agenda.

Remember last General election where every single day we were being told that the NHS was at the top of everyone's concern. Really? For the most part the NHS has been running fine for years.
Now where was immigration in that list of public concerns? - ...it was never mentioned by any of them.

Funny that, for an issue that has been bouncing around on forums for a decade, for it not even to be worthy of a mention during a general election.
And when the smelly voting proletariat embarrassingly brought up the issue live on camera... well, they were shut down as a bunch of neo nazi racists. Even some old granny up North was crucified on the altar of progressive correct thinking.

I note Corbyn had grudgingly admitted that it is now OK to be concerned, but as always the solution is to throw money at the problem, which wouldn't have been a problem in the first place were it not for Blair's social engineering experiments.

Amazing that we are faced with exiting Europe, simply because a political elite couldn't stomach discussing the truth with its own electorate.


Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 13, 2016, 12:18:11 am
Still protest voting isn't going to solve the problems at hand. Cicciolina isn't known for her political achievements.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 13, 2016, 05:48:56 am
What if France pulls out as well?
You have to ask yourself why the UK is on the verge of exiting the EU: it is the result of populistic politicians and not for solid economic reasons. It is very easy to blame politics for your own misery while you sit on your arse and expect to get paid every month. Creating a common enemy is a very easy trick for politicians who have no real solutions for any issue they bring up.

Time for a history lesson: The EU was preceeded by the EEC which was created in 1957 in order to streamline trade between the West European countries and the UK entered in 1973. Now think about how wise it is to throw something out which has worked for over 40 years. Due to increasing globalism it really is (more than ever) necessary for smaller countries to stick together.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Community

The EU's problem is that it was created without a democratically accountable legislature. That's not going to change. I want to live in a democracy, so I'm voting to leave.

If you think the EU is working then look at the state of the Euro economy and what it's done to the Southern nations.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 13, 2016, 06:09:33 am
Amazing : the   british anti-european says … “Brussels ens roba”! (Brussels rob us )

  :-DD The british are  pirating the creed of the National Socialism Catalonia

https://www.dolcacatalunya.com/2016/06/le-suena-algo-este-autobus/ (https://www.dolcacatalunya.com/2016/06/le-suena-algo-este-autobus/)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 13, 2016, 06:59:17 am
If you think the EU is working then look at the state of the Euro economy and what it's done to the Southern nations.
The problem is that the Euro was conceived with no good plan for handling the fact that the different economies which make up its membership are not homogeneous. The plan seemed to merely be "the economies will be the same" but I don't think any nation which entered truly met the criteria.

Without capital flows to help the poorer and/or less productive areas which are stuck with, to them, an overvalued currency. Easy credit turned out not to be the same :(

Perhaps it was hoped that labour flows would do the job - all those Spanish and Greek teenagers going to Germany for work then, presumably, sending Euros back down south but this does not seem to have happened. Perhaps the teenagers wanted to stay at home, perhaps it was difficult for Germany to accept them given its history.

As a "stronger" economy the UK should be supporting others in Europe - it benefits us all in the long term. Remember our gross contribution to Europe is only about 1% of GDP so it is not costing us a lot in relative terms.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Zero999 on June 13, 2016, 09:23:09 am
BUT if we want access to the common market we are likely to have to accept free movement of labour as well
That's a myth.

OK, so the "Swiss model". Which took at least 10 years to set up, covers far fewer trade sectors and agreements than we would need, required considerable concessions on the part of the Swiss and provides an ongoing legislative burden on the Swiss government. Oh, and I believe the EU has said it was so complex it would not entertain setting up anything like it again.

Or the Canadian model - which has taken ages to set up, is not complete, does not provide tariff free access to the market and does not cover services (which are essential ti the UK economy).
What makes you believe that if the UK left, the EU would suddenly start charging tariffs on UK goods? If they did that, then the UK would quite likely do the same to EU goods so it wouldn't achieve anything, especially given the EU sell more goods to the UK than they buy.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 13, 2016, 09:38:46 am
What makes you believe that if the UK left, the EU would suddenly start charging tariffs on UK goods? If they did that, then the UK would quite likely do the same to EU goods so it wouldn't achieve anything, especially given the EU sell more goods to the UK than they buy.
Because the default position, unless an agreement has been reached is that tariffs will apply.

In practice I am sure we would try to reach an agreement but as I have said before, if we want tariff free access to the single market the cost is likely to be continued acceptance of the free movement of labour - we loose the ability to influence the EU but still get most of the baggage which is why I don't favour that type of deal.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 13, 2016, 09:53:11 am
Quote
I don't plan on adapting my way of life to accommodate the feelings of a retarded culture's sky pixie.

So if your expression is offensive to others, would you support suppression of your offensive expression?

Quote
Didn't the USA recently ban the confederate flag from being displayed?

first of all, you cannot compare Europe to the US. The US lacks hundreds of years of "enlightenment", and its people are barbaric. The europeans, on the other hand, have been thoroughly enlightened and should hold itself to a higher, preferably much higher, standard.

secondly, what you said is true if you believe in the media.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: StuUK on June 13, 2016, 09:53:58 am
New poll today showing 55% in favor of exit (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-poll-brexit-leave-campaign-10-point-lead-remain-boris-johnson-nigel-farage-david-a7075131.html). 

If I were a Brit, I think I'd be voting to exit.

I think you've got a more local and bigger decision to make soon......  :scared:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 13, 2016, 09:54:37 am
Quote
The EU's problem is that it was created without a democratically accountable legislature.

What you have in Europe and most other western countries can be better described as tyranny: tyranny of the majority.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 13, 2016, 10:00:44 am
Quote
The EU's problem is that it was created without a democratically accountable legislature.

What you have in Europe and most other western countries can be better described as tyranny: tyranny of the majority.
A they say - democracy is the worst possible option, except for all the others.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: StuUK on June 13, 2016, 10:10:49 am
Quote
The EU's problem is that it was created without a democratically accountable legislature.

What you have in Europe and most other western countries can be better described as tyranny: tyranny of the majority.
A they say - democracy is the worst possible option, except for all the others.

It was Churchill:-

“Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.”

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on June 13, 2016, 10:14:06 am
The EU will make sure a brexit will turn out disastrous for Britain. The EU has to punish countries who leave, it's their only mechanism of survival.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 13, 2016, 10:22:36 am
So if your expression is offensive to others, would you support suppression of your offensive expression?
For a culture to be successful there must be some kind of common identity, where there is a reason to support other people. You can't have a multitude of alien cultures who don't care about each other.
So you end up with a position of cultural relativity, where dispirit cultures all aim to create a homogeneous society, and then the likelihood of anyone finding something offensive is lessoned.

The alternative is a room full of SJW's who all claim to be a victim and who all demand to be the most offended.
Quote
The US lacks hundreds of years of "enlightenment", and its people are barbaric. The europeans, on the other hand, have been thoroughly enlightened and should hold itself to a higher, preferably much higher, standard.

I wouldn't class them as barbaric, a bit childlike and superficial maybe which perhaps gains them the politicians they asked for. Uniting a huge country while retaining some quite different groups is an achievement.
Up until recently I would have said Sweden was the most enlightened country in Europe, but no, their politicians are just as capable of lying as ours are.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Zero999 on June 13, 2016, 10:43:07 am
What makes you believe that if the UK left, the EU would suddenly start charging tariffs on UK goods? If they did that, then the UK would quite likely do the same to EU goods so it wouldn't achieve anything, especially given the EU sell more goods to the UK than they buy.
Because the default position, unless an agreement has been reached is that tariffs will apply.

In practice I am sure we would try to reach an agreement but as I have said before, if we want tariff free access to the single market the cost is likely to be continued acceptance of the free movement of labour - we loose the ability to influence the EU but still get most of the baggage which is why I don't favour that type of deal.
But it's not certain they will make free movement a condition of a trade agreement. If the UK left the EU and just said no to free movement, then the EU may refuse a deal or they may not, but don't make out that they definitely will. That would be a lie. You can't be certain about what will happen and even if the EU makes threats, it doesn't mean they'll carry them out.

Currently the UK is running a trade deficit with the EU and is exporting less. Imposing tariffs on one of your biggest customers will only cause more harm then good.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/10/uk-trade-deficit-hits-new-record-of-24bn-pounds-eu-referendum-brexit (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/10/uk-trade-deficit-hits-new-record-of-24bn-pounds-eu-referendum-brexit)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 13, 2016, 10:58:58 am
"For a culture to be successful t"

I don't think that's thee question here.

You support banning of offensive speeches. 

My question to you is simple: when someone considers your speech too be offensive, do you support banning of your own speech?

A very simple yes or no would do.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 13, 2016, 11:00:32 am
What makes you believe that if the UK left, the EU would suddenly start charging tariffs on UK goods? If they did that, then the UK would quite likely do the same to EU goods so it wouldn't achieve anything, especially given the EU sell more goods to the UK than they buy.
Because the default position, unless an agreement has been reached is that tariffs will apply.

In practice I am sure we would try to reach an agreement but as I have said before, if we want tariff free access to the single market the cost is likely to be continued acceptance of the free movement of labour - we loose the ability to influence the EU but still get most of the baggage which is why I don't favour that type of deal.
But it's not certain they will make free movement a condition of a trade agreement. If the UK left the EU and just said no to free movement, then the EU may refuse a deal or they may not, but don't make out that they definitely will. That would be a lie. You can't be certain about what will happen and even if the EU makes threats, it doesn't mean they'll carry them out.
No I don't claim to know what will happen or what agreement will be reached - all anyone can do is guess. However we can look at the Swiss situation where the EU is making it clear they do not want to continue the current arrangements.

BUT, I can be certain that if a Norwegian style arrangement is reached in which the price of access is continued donation to the EU purse and acceptance of free movement of labour then we will have won nothing and lost participation and influence.

Even if we manage to negotiate access to the market we will still have to produce goods which adhere to the market regulations without the ability to influence those regulations.

Quote
Currently the UK is running a trade deficit with the EU and is exporting less. Imposing tariffs on one of your biggest customers will only cause more harm then good.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/10/uk-trade-deficit-hits-new-record-of-24bn-pounds-eu-referendum-brexit (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/10/uk-trade-deficit-hits-new-record-of-24bn-pounds-eu-referendum-brexit)
All other things being equal you are probably right - but the EU is genuinely worried about the possibility of Brexit destabilising the Union and might well want it to go badly for us - I don't think a divorce will be as amicable as we would hope. Yes that is guessing again but very public figures have said that it will be difficult for us to access the market afterwards.

The bottom line is that I view a Norwegian style deal as too similar to what we have now but with the loss of any input to the process, I view a full pull out as potentially too destabilising and I view the possibility of the any future deals allowing us to pick and choose what we want as remote.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tandy on June 13, 2016, 11:01:19 am
...we loose the ability to influence the EU

We have never had the ability to influence the EU and that is the crux of the problem for me, the EU is not a proper democracy. Britain is not the only country that has issues with the direction of the EU but there is nothing any of the countries that have these concerns can do to change the direction of the EU. Britain even less so as we have a reputation as not being committed to the EU project so anything we have to say is not really taken seriously.

You are correct that the default position would be for tariffs the be applied, however that also means that our tariffs will automatically be applied to imports from the EU. It would be in the interests of both to come to a sensible arrangement. If the EU acts like a spoilt child and tries to punish Britain by not agreeing trade terms then that would just further accelerate the collapse of the EU as countries who trade with us get upset at loosing business due to the EU's spitefulness.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: batteksystem on June 13, 2016, 11:07:56 am
The way this poll is designed means that every non-UK will vote on option 3 anyway.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 13, 2016, 11:13:38 am
...we loose the ability to influence the EU
We have never had the ability to influence the EU and that is the crux of the problem for me, the EU is not a proper democracy. Britain is not the only country that has issues with the direction of the EU but there is nothing any of the countries that have these concerns can do to change the direction of the EU. Britain even less so as we have a reputation as not being committed to the EU project so anything we have to say is not really taken seriously.
This is sounding rather bratty as if only the UK knows what is best for the EU! IMHO the UK should have adopted the euro as well. Currently the EU makes up for only a third of the UK's export even though the EU is next door and I think that has a lot to do with having to deal with exchange rate risks.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tandy on June 13, 2016, 11:19:59 am
Currently the EU makes up for only a third of the UK's export even though the EU is next door and I think that has a lot to do with having to deal with exchange rate risks.
I think there is a lot more to it than that, for a start the EU does not have a single language, the primary language in the UK is English, also spoken by millions of Americans & Australians. It is therefore relatively easy to sell to those countries without having to create localised marketing, manuals, support services. There are 24 official and working languages for the EU and only 1 for the United States.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tszaboo on June 13, 2016, 11:21:14 am
I suspect this is satire but there are people who actually think retardedly like this.
Hungary is going to vote whether we want to have immigrants forcefully moved to Hungary. Polls suggest that some 80% will be against it. Why? Because the country only exist now because it put up walls and kept those people on the other side. This was going on for centuries. Do I really have to explain what is going on?

The UK doesnt want to leave the EU. The UK wants to change all the stupidity which is going on. I dont blame them. EU is good.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Zero999 on June 13, 2016, 11:26:39 am
What makes you believe that if the UK left, the EU would suddenly start charging tariffs on UK goods? If they did that, then the UK would quite likely do the same to EU goods so it wouldn't achieve anything, especially given the EU sell more goods to the UK than they buy.
Because the default position, unless an agreement has been reached is that tariffs will apply.

In practice I am sure we would try to reach an agreement but as I have said before, if we want tariff free access to the single market the cost is likely to be continued acceptance of the free movement of labour - we loose the ability to influence the EU but still get most of the baggage which is why I don't favour that type of deal.
But it's not certain they will make free movement a condition of a trade agreement. If the UK left the EU and just said no to free movement, then the EU may refuse a deal or they may not, but don't make out that they definitely will. That would be a lie. You can't be certain about what will happen and even if the EU makes threats, it doesn't mean they'll carry them out.
No I don't claim to know what will happen or what agreement will be reached - all anyone can do is guess. However we can look at the Swiss situation where the EU is making it clear they do not want to continue the current arrangements.

BUT, I can be certain that if a Norwegian style arrangement is reached in which the price of access is continued donation to the EU purse and acceptance of free movement of labour then we will have won nothing and lost participation and influence.

Even if we manage to negotiate access to the market we will still have to produce goods which adhere to the market regulations without the ability to influence those regulations.

Quote
Currently the UK is running a trade deficit with the EU and is exporting less. Imposing tariffs on one of your biggest customers will only cause more harm then good.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/10/uk-trade-deficit-hits-new-record-of-24bn-pounds-eu-referendum-brexit (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/10/uk-trade-deficit-hits-new-record-of-24bn-pounds-eu-referendum-brexit)
All other things being equal you are probably right - but the EU is genuinely worried about the possibility of Brexit destabilising the Union and might well want it to go badly for us - I don't think a divorce will be as amicable as we would hope. Yes that is guessing again but very public figures have said that it will be difficult for us to access the market afterwards.

The bottom line is that I view a Norwegian style deal as too similar to what we have now but with the loss of any input to the process, I view a full pull out as potentially too destabilising and I view the possibility of the any future deals allowing us to pick and choose what we want as remote.
You keep referring to the Norwegians and Swiss but the UK is totally different to either of them. For example, we might decide to only allow free movement of people from the richest and most powerful EU countries and exclude the rest, which may help with establishing a trade deal. Then if we leave we have more freedom to negotiate trade deals with other countries, especially the commonwealth, which suffered when we joined.

The only thing you've said which is certain is if our products need to be exported to the EU, then they will have to comply with EU regulations but the same can be said for any other country.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 13, 2016, 11:40:16 am
You keep referring to the Norwegians and Swiss but the UK is totally different to either of them. For example, we might decide to only allow free movement of people from the richest and most powerful EU countries and exclude the rest, which may help with establishing a trade deal. Then if we leave we have more freedom to negotiate trade deals with other countries, especially the commonwealth, which suffered when we joined.

The only thing you've said which is certain is if our products need to be exported to the EU, then they will have to comply with EU regulations but the same can be said for any other country.
Only because the agreements that those nations have with the EU are being used as the archetypes for discussion/illustration as to how any future agreement between the EU and the UK would look following our exit (if that is what happens). I completely agree that the UK situation is not closely mirrored by either nation.

The "Swiss model" is probably out because the EU don't even want the Swiss to continue with it.

If we want to get all the negotiations done is 2 years the best would be to pick an existing agreement and say "we'll have one like that", otherwise the divorce will take forever (it probably will anyway).

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 13, 2016, 11:52:49 am
I will certainly be voting to leave.

Whatever one's views and opinions are on democracy, sovereignty, migration control etc are (and everyone is entitled to their own, it is naturally subjective, and therefore impossible to say that a certain opinion is "wrong" and another is "right"), what is an objective fact is that the EU is a hopelessly inefficient, incredibly bloated, and extremely wasteful bureaucracy.

Hardly anyone who works there can properly explain just what the Council of Europe, The European Council, The European Parliament, etc etc actually do and how they do it.


For me, sovereignty is extremely important.  The highest parliament governing the UK should be in the UK.  The highest court ruling on UK cases should be in the UK.  Decisions on whom may live and work in the UK should be taken by the UK and the UK alone.   

Many people rightly complain about our unelected House of Lords, but the undemocraticness (is that a word?) of the EU system swamps that.


I am sure there will be a little wobble to our economy if we leave, but that will be a small price worth paying, as the EU economy is in a death spiral.


I sincerely hope that we vote to leave, and after a few years when the transition is over and the sky hasn't fallen, our brothers and sisters across the continent make the same move and leave the sinking ship.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: AndyC_772 on June 13, 2016, 12:02:26 pm
The only thing you've said which is certain is if our products need to be exported to the EU, then they will have to comply with EU regulations but the same can be said for any other country.

IMHO this is actually one of the few good things to come out of the requirement that all EU members have to adopt EU Directives into law.

If I design a product, I only have to get it tested to a single set of safety, EMC and other specifications, apply one approval mark, and I can sell it anywhere in Europe. No individual country can say "no, no, no, we're special, you have to test to our standards in our country and put our mark on your product before you can sell here".

That's a massive benefit. Anyone who ever designed telephone equipment, back in the day when everything had to be tested to each country's incumbent operator's specs, will understand.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Zero999 on June 13, 2016, 12:08:46 pm
The only thing you've said which is certain is if our products need to be exported to the EU, then they will have to comply with EU regulations but the same can be said for any other country.

IMHO this is actually one of the few good things to come out of the requirement that all EU members have to adopt EU Directives into law.

If I design a product, I only have to get it tested to a single set of safety, EMC and other specifications, apply one approval mark, and I can sell it anywhere in Europe. No individual country can say "no, no, no, we're special, you have to test to our standards in our country and put our mark on your product before you can sell here".

That's a massive benefit. Anyone who ever designed telephone equipment, back in the day when everything had to be tested to each country's incumbent operator's specs, will understand.
I agree with you there.

What I disagree with is when the EU starts interfering with things which have nothing to do with trade, such as the colours of the wires used in fixed electrical installations.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 13, 2016, 12:14:50 pm
Might be worth to read about what options UK will have.
https://www.cer.org.uk/sites/default/files/smc_final_report_june2014.pdf (https://www.cer.org.uk/sites/default/files/smc_final_report_june2014.pdf)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 13, 2016, 12:21:36 pm
"For a culture to be successful t"
I don't think that's thee question here.
It's essentially how cultures function, so I think it is relevant.
Quote
You support banning of offensive speeches. 

No I don't.
I took issue with an expression of an alien culture that serve no common purpose in my country.

Quote
My question to you is simple: when someone considers your speech too be offensive, do you support banning of your own speech?

Which has changed from your original question which was : "What if others outlaw your ability to think the way you do because somehow it is offensive for them that you think that way?"

Free speech is fine, dressing up as scary black ninjas is not.
Coincidentally Turkey and Syria (and France) agree with me, most of Europe is still discussing the issue. The only country which chooses to stick its head in the sand is the UK.

Anyone who ever designed telephone equipment, back in the day when everything had to be tested to each country's incumbent operator's specs, will understand.

OMG I've been there, I swear they were all doing it deliberately just to be contrary.
"No no no, our ringtone must be 10ms longer than yours..."

 |O  |O  |O

French car wiring colours need to be changed, last I looked it was green and brown - Sheesh, at least try and pick something intuitive
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: VK3DRB on June 13, 2016, 12:50:10 pm
The poms need the EU, because for one reason their own justice system cannot be trusted.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: FreddyVictor on June 13, 2016, 01:09:40 pm
The poms need the EU, because for one reason their own justice system cannot be trusted.

that could be said of alot of countries  :)

interesting article re: TTIP (https://medium.com/@WhiteWednesday/the-ttip-issue-just-went-red-in-the-eu-referendum-b7932593f0e8#.nmzg4mo8d) - looks like this will be forced onto all EU countries whether they like it or not
so much for EU democracy ...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 13, 2016, 02:03:00 pm
Might be bortth to read abpout what options UK will have.
https://www.cer.org.uk/sites/default/files/smc_final_report_june2014.pdf (https://www.cer.org.uk/sites/default/files/smc_final_report_june2014.pdf)
Not just options but impacts - a very good read.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: NivagSwerdna on June 13, 2016, 02:27:24 pm
Might be bortth to read abpout what options UK will have.
https://www.cer.org.uk/sites/default/files/smc_final_report_june2014.pdf (https://www.cer.org.uk/sites/default/files/smc_final_report_june2014.pdf)
Not just options but impacts - a very good read.
Propaganda https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Centre_for_European_Reform (https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Centre_for_European_Reform)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 13, 2016, 02:28:08 pm
The poms need the EU, because for one reason their own justice system cannot be trusted.

that could be said of alot of countries  :)

interesting article re: TTIP (https://medium.com/@WhiteWednesday/the-ttip-issue-just-went-red-in-the-eu-referendum-b7932593f0e8#.nmzg4mo8d) - looks like this will be forced onto all EU countries whether they like it or not
so much for EU democracy ...
I need to see TTIP going to happen first because there is so much opposition against it (which is good IMHO). But... do you really think the UK can hammer out a better deal with the US on their own? I think Cameron just gets Trump's or Hillary's fist up his * (where the sun doesn't shine).
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 13, 2016, 02:38:21 pm
Might be bortth to read abpout what options UK will have.
https://www.cer.org.uk/sites/default/files/smc_final_report_june2014.pdf (https://www.cer.org.uk/sites/default/files/smc_final_report_june2014.pdf)
Not just options but impacts - a very good read.
Propaganda https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Centre_for_European_Reform (https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Centre_for_European_Reform)
So? Is there any agent in this argument who does not have an agenda?

Whatever you think about the organisation it is, at least, a reasonable discussion on the main points and influencing factors.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 13, 2016, 02:51:11 pm
Might be bortth to read abpout what options UK will have.
https://www.cer.org.uk/sites/default/files/smc_final_report_june2014.pdf (https://www.cer.org.uk/sites/default/files/smc_final_report_june2014.pdf)
Not just options but impacts - a very good read.
Propaganda https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Centre_for_European_Reform (https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Centre_for_European_Reform)
That certainly is a very reliable and unbiased source of information. https://wikispooks.com/wiki/9-11/Israel_did_it (https://wikispooks.com/wiki/9-11/Israel_did_it)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 13, 2016, 03:58:12 pm
So? Is there any agent in this argument who does not have an agenda?

Whatever you think about the organisation it is, at least, a reasonable discussion on the main points and influencing factors.

I ctrl-F'd for refugee, asylum and Dublin ... nothing. All these studies on the impact of Eastern European migrants are nice and all, but not all that relevant to contemporary times.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 13, 2016, 04:18:40 pm
Thunderf00t has posted a video on the subject.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 13, 2016, 05:59:45 pm
As a "stronger" economy the UK should be supporting others in Europe - it benefits us all in the long term. Remember our gross contribution to Europe is only about 1% of GDP so it is not costing us a lot in relative terms.

I'm from out of town and my opinion is irrelevant but why should the UK subsidize other countries?  Why take money from UK taxpayers and donate it to non-producers?

Why be forced to accept uncontrolled immigration?  Especially from groups who want to retain 7th century ideas and have no intention of assimilating?  France is swamped by this issue.

The voters of the UK are the people whose opinions count.  Do they think the UK gains more from membership than they lose?  The opinions of members of government are bought and paid for.  It's up to the voters to decide.

In a way, BREXIT is a disrupter in the same way Trump is a disrupter.  Things won't be the same if Trump gets elected and it will be up to history to decide if that's a good thing or a bad thing.  Same for BREXIT.  Taking the disrupter path guarantees a change!

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 13, 2016, 06:13:19 pm
I'm from out of town and my opinion is irrelevant but why should the UK subsidize other countries?
And such thinking is the reason why US has completely screwed up healthcare. It's not about health but about money it can suck out of each individual.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: AndyC_772 on June 13, 2016, 06:25:26 pm
Dumb question alert...

In this day and age, where we have jet powered travel and real-time global communications, why is EU membership restricted to countries that are geographically located in the part of the Earth's surface we call "Europe"?

Why shouldn't other countries be able to join if they wish? Why should it have such a compelling draw for countries that happen to share physical borders with other members, but (apparently) no appeal otherwise?

Perhaps the EU would work better for all if it were to admit some other countries that could, in turn, also help open up trade links with places further away?

So, if you're, say, in America... how would you feel about your country joining the EU? Do you think you'd benefit? Would other members? Would you adopt the Euro?

What if you're in South Korea? Or New Zealand? Or India?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 13, 2016, 06:26:59 pm
I'm from out of town and my opinion is irrelevant but why should the UK subsidize other countries?
And such thinking is the reason why US has completely screwed up healthcare. It's not about health but about money it can suck out of you.

I agree that healthcare in the US is an abomination but it isn't anywhere near as bad as NHS.  I can often get an appointment with my primary care provider in a matter of hours, not weeks.  If I am less concerned about seeing my individual PCP, I can get an appointment in less than an hour.  For urgent care I can go to any hospital.  Right now!  I have had non-governmental healthcare for nearly 50 years, most often as an employee benefit.  In other words, I worked for it!

I don't see the correlation between US healthcare and the UK subsidizing Europe.  Isn't there something better to do with 8bn pounds?  But it's up to the voters of the UK.  I'm just a bystander and waiting anxiously to see how it comes out!  Other than the US election, BREXIT is the best show in town.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 13, 2016, 06:33:54 pm
Dumb question alert...

In this day and age, where we have jet powered travel and real-time global communications, why is EU membership restricted to countries that are geographically located in the part of the Earth's surface we call "Europe"?

Why shouldn't other countries be able to join if they wish? Why should it have such a compelling draw for countries that happen to share physical borders with other members, but (apparently) no appeal otherwise?

Perhaps the EU would work better for all if it were to admit some other countries that could, in turn, also help open up trade links with places further away?

So, if you're, say, in America... how would you feel about your country joining the EU? Do you think you'd benefit? Would other members? Would you adopt the Euro?

What if you're in South Korea? Or New Zealand? Or India?

From the US, I want absolutely nothing to do with any form of global (read non-responsive) government.  I simply don't care what they think in Brussels.  We have enough problems with Hillary wanting to go along with UN mandates.  Trade is business, let's talk!  But how we do things is to be decided by us, not Europeans.

As to the EC admitting other countries, not a problem for me but...  Were I a member country, I would want to be certain that candidate countries have a net positive economy.  Nobody needs another country to subsidize.  So, for New Zealand and Australia, no problem.  Sudan would be an issue.

We just don't need a global welfare state.  We should encourage trade at every opportunity but global government is a truly bad idea.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: NivagSwerdna on June 13, 2016, 06:48:57 pm
Nice cartoon at Zerohedge.  :)
(http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2016/06/13/20160613_brexit.jpg)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 13, 2016, 06:50:15 pm
I'm from out of town and my opinion is irrelevant but why should the UK subsidize other countries?  Why take money from UK taxpayers and donate it to non-producers?
Subsidize is possibly the wrong word - I did say support but the essential reason is that we exist in a closed system thus what goes around tends to come around. Keeping people economically active improves their standard of living and ultimately benefits us in return.

Quote
Why be forced to accept uncontrolled immigration?  Especially from groups who want to retain 7th century ideas and have no intention of assimilating?  France is swamped by this issue.
Broadly speaking immigration is good for an economy because it brings young, fit, frequently well qualified workers who actually want to work and improve their lot. Movement of people/labour has been historically important in Europe for the last 3000 years and, lets face it pretty much everyone living in the USA is an immigrant as Homo Sapiens is an "old world" species.

It does backfire, of course, but the evidence is that immigrants to the UK currently contribute to the economy more than they take back. Also I think IDS has been on about the forecast of 150-250, 000 net influx out to 2030 or so. That's perhaps about the same number of workers that we need to bring into the UK over the same time period so I'm not sure it's entirely a bad thing.

Yes, we need to build houses and schools but it is not the EU's fault that we have not been doing that fast enough but successive governments who have encouraged everyone to go to 5th rate educational institutions to earn a 7th rate piss pot degree rather than running decent training schemes to equip us with the workforce that we need.

Quote
The voters of the UK are the people whose opinions count.  Do they think the UK gains more from membership than they lose?  The opinions of members of government are bought and paid for.  It's up to the voters to decide.

It is, I just don't think that watching a bunch of self-serving politicians calling each other names is going to qualify them to make the decision.

Quote
In a way, BREXIT is a disrupter in the same way Trump is a disrupter.  Things won't be the same if Trump gets elected and it will be up to history to decide if that's a good thing or a bad thing.  Same for BREXIT.  Taking the disrupter path guarantees a change!

I can agree with that statement. It might even be if we manage it properly (see previous comments on British management) we will ultimately come out on top but the short term pain could well be intense and I am not sure I believe that things will be as rosy long term as the Leave campaign claim.

The UK is 4% of GDP, the EU closer to 40 - who do you think the US and China will want to negotiate favourable terms with?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rolycat on June 13, 2016, 06:50:54 pm
I agree that healthcare in the US is an abomination but it isn't anywhere near as bad as NHS.
It is truly astounding how many Americans parrot this nonsense as if it were an imperishable fact.

Quote

I can often get an appointment with my primary care provider in a matter of hours, not weeks.  If I am less concerned about seeing my individual PCP, I can get an appointment in less than an hour.  For urgent care I can go to any hospital.
And all of this is typically also the case in the UK. Where are you getting your information?

A recent study (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/uks-healthcare-ranked-the-best-out-of-11-western-countries-with-us-coming-last-9542833.html) by a US-based organisation rated the healthcare provision of New Zealand, Australia, France, Germany, Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Canada, Britain and the US.

The NHS was rated as the best, and the US came last.

All such ranking exercises have an element of subjectivity, and the NHS certainly has its flaws, but try asking British people how they feel about the NHS, rather than relying on the distortions peddled by the US media.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 13, 2016, 06:51:19 pm
Nice cartoon at Zerohedge.  :)
(http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2016/06/13/20160613_brexit.jpg)

 :)  :-+
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on June 13, 2016, 07:06:23 pm
Quote
"If the qualified politicians, economists etc. elected to run the country full-time can't agree on what's best, then how am I supposed to decide objectively in my spare-time using soundbite propaganda uttered by both sides and delivered through biased media?

Doesn't sound you have a lot of confidence in  your own ability to decide for yourself.

To me it sounds like a proper reflection of his own limitations, which is actually commendable, but unfortunately very rare.

Quote
There are a lot of research to suggest that the "uneducated" mass is pretty good at finding a good outcome for themselves without the "elites".

Not really. In fact, there's quite a bit of research showing that masses tend to get more stupid than the average individuum in that crowd, and that in large groups humans pretty much behave like cattle:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/plus2sd/200809/the-stupidity-crowds (https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/plus2sd/200809/the-stupidity-crowds)

People vote against their interest all the time. Hitler was elected, Mussolini, too. For a more recent example, just look at the 2015 general elections in the UK, or the fellowship of Trump.

Considering how many Brits I meet every day that want "out" but know jack shit about the EU and how it works, I have complete confidence that the "great British public" will again vote against their best interest  :palm:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: FrankD on June 13, 2016, 07:06:23 pm
Throw these brits out. They hardly have a relevant industry left. Have a leeching financial section that will sink after the brexit.
Somehow they are delusional in thinking that they are still an important world 'power'.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on June 13, 2016, 07:09:56 pm
As a "stronger" economy the UK should be supporting others in Europe - it benefits us all in the long term. Remember our gross contribution to Europe is only about 1% of GDP so it is not costing us a lot in relative terms.

I'm from out of town and my opinion is irrelevant but why should the UK subsidize other countries?  Why take money from UK taxpayers and donate it to non-producers?

Why be forced to accept uncontrolled immigration?  Especially from groups who want to retain 7th century ideas and have no intention of assimilating?  France is swamped by this issue.


There is a lot of confusion (some deliberate) about this.  The EU agreement says we have to accept citizens of other EU countries coming  here, under some circumstances, mainly if they work or support themselves.  Very few of these are Muslims or recent immigrants, because the latter aren't EU citizens until they've been there years.   The EU is *not* making us take refugees (although other EU countries with land borders may be sharing each other's refugee burden), and very few indeed of our Muslim immigrants, or indeed long standing Muslim population, are here from or because of the EU. 
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: chris_leyson on June 13, 2016, 07:24:49 pm
Quote
What I disagree with is when the EU starts interfering with things which have nothing to do with trade, such as the colours of the wires used in fixed electrical installations.

It happened for a good reason, years ago my dad had a work colleauge who had red/green colour blindness and couldn't wire a mains plug, it would have been 50/50 chance of getting it right.

Years later, myself and a fellow student got a six month industrial placement as part of a degree course, day one was paperwork and medical. They kicked him out there and then for being colour blind and he didn't even know he was colour blind. So, two examples of why they change the colour code.

From an EE point of view, don't forget how the EC have have harmonized standards, EMC, LVD, RTTE and RoHS, there's medical, chemical, mechanical, metrology and loads more that I'm not familiar with. Back in the day you would have had to have done EMC testing to several standards depending on the destination country and the standard in force. Fimko, Semko, Nemko, Demko, VDE,WTF.

From an EE point of view I would vote for staying.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 13, 2016, 07:29:14 pm
I'm from out of town and my opinion is irrelevant but why should the UK subsidize other countries?
And such thinking is the reason why US has completely screwed up healthcare. It's not about health but about money it can suck out of you.

I agree that healthcare in the US is an abomination but it isn't anywhere near as bad as NHS.  I can often get an appointment with my primary care provider in a matter of hours, not weeks.  If I am less concerned about seeing my individual PCP, I can get an appointment in less than an hour.  For urgent care I can go to any hospital.  Right now!  I have had non-governmental healthcare for nearly 50 years, most often as an employee benefit.  In other words, I worked for it!
But if you are ill with something serious, you are screwed. Those healthcare plans also have so many exceptions that it is just ridiculous. With NHS it's otherwise, you won't get free simple treatment blazing fast, but if you have something serious, you will have a decent treatment. In US, you'll die if you are out of money.
Quote
I don't see the correlation between US healthcare and the UK subsidizing Europe.  Isn't there something better to do with 8bn pounds?  But it's up to the voters of the UK.  I'm just a bystander and waiting anxiously to see how it comes out!  Other than the US election, BREXIT is the best show in town.
Those 8 bn are a joke actually. By exiting EU, immediate losses will outweigh those savings 10s of years forward. UK net contribution to EU is 0.5% of GDP. Don't think about those 8 bn as if the are gone nowhere. They develop markets where UK goods will be sold afterwards. Actually a lot of that money returns as ability to sell goods while it would not be possible otherwise.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 13, 2016, 07:43:43 pm
It does backfire, of course, but the evidence is that immigrants to the UK currently contribute to the economy more than they take back.

Evidence based on massive Eastern European immigration, groups with often lower unemployment than the native population.

If all the immigrants had been gypsies it wouldn't have turned out the same. I suspect muslim refugees will have an economic contribution closer to that of gypsies than Poles ... although I'd still rather have gypsies than muslim refugees. Gadjos are to be taken advantage of, Kafirs are to be taken advantage of and eventually need to submit or be destroyed.

The EU is *not* making us take refugees (although other EU countries with land borders may be sharing each other's refugee burden)

Sharing, that's a nice euphemism for being forced to take refugees or be fined. How long will the UK be allowed not to share?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 13, 2016, 07:57:33 pm
Quote
"If the qualified politicians, economists etc. elected to run the country full-time can't agree on what's best, then how am I supposed to decide objectively in my spare-time using soundbite propaganda uttered by both sides and delivered through biased media?

Doesn't sound you have a lot of confidence in  your own ability to decide for yourself.

To me it sounds like a proper reflection of his own limitations, which is actually commendable, but unfortunately very rare.

Quote
There are a lot of research to suggest that the "uneducated" mass is pretty good at finding a good outcome for themselves without the "elites".

Not really. In fact, there's quite a bit of research showing that masses tend to get more stupid than the average individuum in that crowd, and that in large groups humans pretty much behave like cattle:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/plus2sd/200809/the-stupidity-crowds (https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/plus2sd/200809/the-stupidity-crowds)

People vote against their interest all the time. Hitler was elected, Mussolini, too. For a more recent example, just look at the 2015 general elections in the UK, or the fellowship of Trump.

Considering how many Brits I meet every day that want "out" but know jack shit about the EU and how it works, I have complete confidence that the "great British public" will again vote against their best interest  :palm:
Soviet study about how easy it is to impact individual if the majority have some general consensus, Even if it is completely ludicrous. They even managed to make adult man calling white being black just because majority said so. Also it shows some examples of how reliable human brain is at estimating things. Very good movie actually. Stuff about deliberately impacting opinion starts at 10th minute.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuIXiXqv978 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuIXiXqv978)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on June 13, 2016, 08:05:46 pm
I agree that healthcare in the US is an abomination but it isn't anywhere near as bad as NHS.
It is truly astounding how many Americans parrot this nonsense as if it were an imperishable fact.

Well as non-American who has experience with both healthcare systems (plus the Canadian and German systems) I can assure you it's not nonsense. The NHS wins hands-down on costs, no questions, but not on availability and quality of care.

The biggest issue with the US system is access, i.e. you have to be able to afford treatment.

Quote
Quote

I can often get an appointment with my primary care provider in a matter of hours, not weeks.  If I am less concerned about seeing my individual PCP, I can get an appointment in less than an hour.  For urgent care I can go to any hospital.
And all of this is typically also the case in the UK. Where are you getting your information?


Here up north I can usually get an emergency appointment with my GP the next day or, if I'm very lucky, maybe even the same day, but normal appointments usually take one or two weeks, sometimes more. And apparently I should consider myself lucky, because of the huge shortage of doctors in the UK it's a lot worse in many other areas. Doctors btw which right now are for large part "pesky foreigners", i.e. the kind of people many Brits would like to get rid of rather sooner than later, which is one reason why we have this silly Brexit mess in the first place. The thing is, should the foreigners leave then the NHS would stop to function.

Oh, and A&E (the British equivalent to the ER) in many hospitals is totally overrun due to the GP shortage, often with waiting times exceeding 6 hours. And that's nothing new, this has been going on for years.

Dental care in the UK is probably the worst I've ever encountered in any first world country, a lot worse than in Germany and even more so than in the US. And not exactly cheap, either. You can get better treatment via private health insurance, but even there the standard is, in my experience, far below other countries including the US.

Quote
A recent study (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/uks-healthcare-ranked-the-best-out-of-11-western-countries-with-us-coming-last-9542833.html) by a US-based organisation rated the healthcare provision of New Zealand, Australia, France, Germany, Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Canada, Britain and the US.

The NHS was rated as the best, and the US came last.

Yes, based on costs. In terms of outcomes, the picture is less rosy, for example the UK is pretty far down when it comes to treating cancer and various other illnesses.

Quote
All such ranking exercises have an element of subjectivity, and the NHS certainly has its flaws, but try asking British people how they feel about the NHS, rather than relying on the distortions peddled by the US media.

The thing with asking a Brit about the NHS is that the answer quite often is tainted by an inappropriate amount of national pride, usually resulting in the "envy of the world" BS reply. Ask someone who actually has been treated under different healtcare systems, and you'll more likely get a more realistic assessment.

Worth a read:
http://www.sochealth.co.uk/2015/01/18/international-comparisons-say-nhs/ (http://www.sochealth.co.uk/2015/01/18/international-comparisons-say-nhs/)

"In summary, little evidence seems to exist to prove the belief that the NHS is the “envy of the world”, at least if we are talking about the developed world. The UK’s health service surely provides adequate and often excellent care, but many questions remain about whether that care is as good as the standards of our cultural and physical neighbors in Europe and the rest of the world. [...]"
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 13, 2016, 08:12:02 pm


Nice cartoon at Zerohedge.  :)
(http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2016/06/13/20160613_brexit.jpg)

A picture worth a thousand words.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 13, 2016, 08:12:49 pm
As a "stronger" economy the UK should be supporting others in Europe - it benefits us all in the long term. Remember our gross contribution to Europe is only about 1% of GDP so it is not costing us a lot in relative terms.
I'm from out of town and my opinion is irrelevant but why should the UK subsidize other countries?  Why take money from UK taxpayers and donate it to non-producers?
Google 'Marshall plan'.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 13, 2016, 08:13:36 pm
But if you are ill with something serious, you are screwed. Those healthcare plans also have so many exceptions that it is just ridiculous. With NHS it's otherwise, you won't get free simple treatment blazing fast, but if you have something serious, you will have a decent treatment. In US, you'll die if you are out of money.

Well, I can't speak for Obamacare or VA benefits because I belong to an HMO.  I have had two episodes of having stents placed in arteries and both were handled immediately.  I have nothing but good things to say about my health plan.  If there's any doubt, they have the facilities to check things out.  Right now!  If there's a problem, they handle it.  Right now!

I do worry about the donut hole in Medicare prescription plans such as Senior Advantage but I doubt very much that I'll ever be using those benefits.

At the moment, I have no concerns about US healthcare but I am delighted that we don't have a one-size-fits-all government financed plan like NHS.  Unfortunately, I suspect we are headed in that direction.


Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 13, 2016, 08:20:59 pm
Nice cartoon at Zerohedge.  :)
(http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2016/06/13/20160613_brexit.jpg)
If you look at the economic growth rates then the EU as a whole (including Greece) is doing better than the UK before and after the crisis:
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/european-union/gdp-annual-growth-rate (http://www.tradingeconomics.com/european-union/gdp-annual-growth-rate)
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-growth (http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-growth)

Even before the crisis the EU has outperformed the UK when it comes to economic growth.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 13, 2016, 08:22:51 pm
As a "stronger" economy the UK should be supporting others in Europe - it benefits us all in the long term. Remember our gross contribution to Europe is only about 1% of GDP so it is not costing us a lot in relative terms.
I'm from out of town and my opinion is irrelevant but why should the UK subsidize other countries?  Why take money from UK taxpayers and donate it to non-producers?
Google 'Marshall plan'.

I read about it once.  It was a great help in stabilizing Europe after WW-II.  It didn't start until 3 years after the end of WW-II and lasted just 4 years.  It wasn't an unending flow of taxpayer cash.  It amounted to quite a bit of money but it was cheaper than WW-III, the likely alternative.  But we're not talking about countries ravaged by war, at least not the major players in the EU.  But we are talking about countries with rather liberal retirement plans and other motivations to reward non-performance.

Just last week I was reading about a country that wanted to provide every citizen with a stipend whether they worked or not.  A basic amount for living expenses.  Of course, if a person worked, the stipend was reduced.  Now that's a huge incentive to stay home and watch Oprah reruns.  Let's see, I get money for not going to work or less money if I do go to work.  Which to choose...  What a stupid idea!  Fortunately, it seems like the proposal crashed and burned.  They wanted to take more money from those who produce and give it to those who don't.  Terrific!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rolycat on June 13, 2016, 08:29:52 pm
I agree that healthcare in the US is an abomination but it isn't anywhere near as bad as NHS.
It is truly astounding how many Americans parrot this nonsense as if it were an imperishable fact.

Well as non-American who has experience with both healthcare systems plus the German one I can tell you it's not nonsense.
You can tell me anything you like; doesn't make it true.

My family also has experience of healthcare on both sides of the pond, (my aunt and uncle are US citizens) and their experiences in the USA healthcare system have frequently been appalling.

Yes, the NHS has many failings, as does the healthcare of any other country, but that doesn't make it incomparably worse than what rstofer acknowledges to be "an abomination".

Quote
Dental care in the UK is probably the worst I've ever encountered in any first world country, a lot worse than in Germany and even more so than in the US.
Really? So how does the UK manage to share the crown (https://top5ofanything.com/list/7f67f9bf/Countries-with-the-Healthiest-Teeth) for the healthiest teeth of any country in the world with Germany?

Quote
The thing with asking a Brit about the NHS is that the answer quite often is tainted by an inappropriate amount of national pride, usually resulting in the "envy of the world" BS reply. Ask someone who actually has been treated under different healtcare systems, and you'll more likely get a more realistic assessment.

Don't put words in my mouth. I never claimed the NHS was "the envy of the world" I just get upset when Americans assume it to be some kind of third-world hellhole.

And Brits are the only nation given to "inappropriate amounts of national pride", are they?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on June 13, 2016, 08:36:39 pm
For me, sovereignty is extremely important. 

How important is sovereignty when we can't defend ourselves - we already borrow ASW aircraft from Canada when there's a Russian sub near Faslane, and if the Argies invade the Falklands we will have to beg the French to lend us their aircraft carrier.

How important is sovereignty when the lights go out (and they will go out) in a few years because the Chinese won't lend us enough money to get the French to build Hinkley Point.

There are too many other similar examples :(
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: chris_leyson on June 13, 2016, 08:46:03 pm
Aneurin Beven spearheaded the founding of the national health service and there is a statue of him at the end of Queen St in Cardiff. But they put his statue under a tree and he's always covered in bird shit. To me that is somewhat disrespectful. If he could see his statue he would probably say "Cardiff, pretty shitty city". cf Twin Town, "Swansea...pretty shitty city". No one seems to give a shit apart from the birds. It's perhaps an indicator of how much society really cares about their past or future. Rant over.

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1938771 (http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1938771)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 13, 2016, 08:48:48 pm


... the lights go out (and they will go out) in a few years ...

Wow! 

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: continuo on June 13, 2016, 08:49:15 pm
Together we stand, divided we fall... It's never a good thing to lose influence... Not for the EU and not for you Brits.  :(

 
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 13, 2016, 08:49:54 pm
For me, sovereignty is extremely important. 

How important is sovereignty when we can't defend ourselves - we already borrow ASW aircraft from Canada when there's a Russian sub near Faslane, and if the Argies invade the Falklands we will have to beg the French to lend us their aircraft carrier.
Likely the same which Sweden hunted 2 years ago. Last week Swedish minister of defense admitted it was BS. but it did the job, it helped to push through increase of military expenses.
http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=83&artikel=6451552 (http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=83&artikel=6451552)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on June 13, 2016, 09:02:32 pm


The EU is *not* making us take refugees (although other EU countries with land borders may be sharing each other's refugee burden)

Sharing, that's a nice euphemism for being forced to take refugees or be fined. How long will the UK be allowed not to share?

We were never in Schengen and there is no basis for forcing us to take refugees.   As a civilised country, we have chosen to accept a number of Syrian war refugees.  You may think that unwise, but it is nothing to do with the EU.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Koen on June 13, 2016, 09:03:50 pm
Multiple times in this thread : "I don't care what you think. Now, let me tell you what I think". Well done lads, great discussion.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on June 13, 2016, 09:05:16 pm


... the lights go out (and they will go out) in a few years ...

Wow!

Yes :(  Several "notices of insufficiency" have already been formally issued, but I believe not enacted. (An NoI is a warning to industrial customers that they may have their power cut)

We currently have about 3% excess generating capacity. All it takes is a couple of unscheduled outages.Many large nukes are reaching their end of life and/or having their peak capacity reduced for safety reasons. And we're closing the coal stations. And we are trying to get other countries to finance new gas generating plant.

But of course, the market wisdom is sufficient to solve all problems. Not.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 13, 2016, 09:10:49 pm

A recent study (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/uks-healthcare-ranked-the-best-out-of-11-western-countries-with-us-coming-last-9542833.html) by a US-based organisation rated the healthcare provision of New Zealand, Australia, France, Germany, Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Canada, Britain and the US.

The NHS was rated as the best, and the US came last.

All such ranking exercises have an element of subjectivity, and the NHS certainly has its flaws, but try asking British people how they feel about the NHS, rather than relying on the distortions peddled by the US media.

Actually, BBC gets down on NHS from time to time.  It's the only UK site I visit...  I have read multiple articles of folks on NHS not being able to get an appointment for weeks for things like Flu.  Who knows if it is true?  Was it true to one person, once?  Well, that certainly doesn't make it 'generally' true but it isn't false either.  We have the same problem with our system.  I am blessed to not be involved with Obamacare because that system truly is a trainwreck.

Whenever I see a study, I want to know 2 things:  First, who did the study and, second, what point are they trying to make?  Every single research paper I have ever read ended with a plea for more research ($).  Once we realize that everything we read and half of what we see is the result of 'spin', the better off we'll be.

We have the hot-button issue of Social Security.  The young folks don't want to pay in because they figure the system will go bankrupt before they can collect (may or may not be true) and the benefits are about to start eating into the defense budget.  The old folks figure that they paid in for 40 years or more, now it's time to collect.  They may feel that a huge reduction in the defense budget is a good thing.  Maybe we'd have to pull back from some of our foreign adventures.  Not an altogether bad outcome.  It'll be fun to watch over the next several years.

And everybody wants to weigh in on our election.  Outsider opinions are irrelevant but what would have happened if Britain had banned the future President of the United States?  That might have been awkward!  He could get elected, you know...


Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 13, 2016, 09:14:05 pm
The rats always are the first at abandoning the ship when it sinks  :-DD :-DD

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Here up north I can usually get an emergency appointment with my GP the next day or, if I'm very lucky, maybe even the same day, but normal appointments usually take one or two weeks,

As here,and  is the blame  the Brussels? So no . the blame is the president for naming to the President of the Private Clinics of Catalonia as Health Advisor.

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Oh, and A&E (the British equivalent to the ER) in many hospitals is totally overrun due to the GP shortage, often with waiting times exceeding 6 hours. And that's nothing new, this has been going on for years.

As here,and  is the blame  the Brussels or Madrid? So no . the blame is the president for holding elections every two years since 2010 and every time the  idiot president  losts votes.

The victimism speech i know very fine because we carry to mash "the proccess catalonia " for 6 years ,24 hour per day .

And the british anti-european are at the first stage :"Brussels rob us ", "The british paid more than we recieved"

The second stage: "They don't understand us ", "They don't want to listen", "They aren't democratics."

The third stage: "Our the british we are locomotive from europe", "They want to dominate us", "Europe hate us"

And the last stage i don't know but  we are living  now.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 13, 2016, 10:28:28 pm

"No I don't."

So do you allow KKK aand their highly offensive speeches and dress code? Do you allow burka? Do you allow advocating Sharia law? Do you allow speech's for skavery? Or any other topics you may think offensive?

"I took issue with an expression of an alien culture that serve no common purpose in my country"

So what? Many things we took for granted today were once alienn to us: science, anti slavery, same sex marriage,  equal rights for minorities, votig rights forr women, democracy, ......

If we didn't allow alien expressions, we would still be livining caves
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 13, 2016, 11:03:44 pm
I'm from out of town and my opinion is irrelevant but why should the UK subsidize other countries?  Why take money from UK taxpayers and donate it to non-producers?
Subsidize is possibly the wrong word - I did say support but the essential reason is that we exist in a closed system thus what goes around tends to come around. Keeping people economically active improves their standard of living and ultimately benefits us in return.

Some folks subscribe to the 'invisible hand' theory and others a) don't know what it is or b) would rather ignore it.  On an international scale, I'm not sure what I think about it.  On a personal basis, yes, greed is good!

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Why be forced to accept uncontrolled immigration?  Especially from groups who want to retain 7th century ideas and have no intention of assimilating?  France is swamped by this issue.
Broadly speaking immigration is good for an economy because it brings young, fit, frequently well qualified workers who actually want to work and improve their lot. Movement of people/labour has been historically important in Europe for the last 3000 years and, lets face it pretty much everyone living in the USA is an immigrant as Homo Sapiens is an "old world" species.

It does backfire, of course, but the evidence is that immigrants to the UK currently contribute to the economy more than they take back. Also I think IDS has been on about the forecast of 150-250, 000 net influx out to 2030 or so. That's perhaps about the same number of workers that we need to bring into the UK over the same time period so I'm not sure it's entirely a bad thing.

Yes, we need to build houses and schools but it is not the EU's fault that we have not been doing that fast enough but successive governments who have encouraged everyone to go to 5th rate educational institutions to earn a 7th rate piss pot degree rather than running decent training schemes to equip us with the workforce that we need.


Yet here in the US, we are forced to accept uncontrolled immigration of people with little to no skills.  I am of the view that we should encourage immigration for anyone with a STEM degree.  Not so much for low skills...

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The voters of the UK are the people whose opinions count.  Do they think the UK gains more from membership than they lose?  The opinions of members of government are bought and paid for.  It's up to the voters to decide.

It is, I just don't think that watching a bunch of self-serving politicians calling each other names is going to qualify them to make the decision.

Yet for this election cycle, this is what inundates us here in the US.  I don't want either candidate to get elected.  One of them I want a little less than the other.  Either way, things don't look too good!

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In a way, BREXIT is a disrupter in the same way Trump is a disrupter.  Things won't be the same if Trump gets elected and it will be up to history to decide if that's a good thing or a bad thing.  Same for BREXIT.  Taking the disrupter path guarantees a change!

I can agree with that statement. It might even be if we manage it properly (see previous comments on British management) we will ultimately come out on top but the short term pain could well be intense and I am not sure I believe that things will be as rosy long term as the Leave campaign claim.

The UK is 4% of GDP, the EU closer to 40 - who do you think the US and China will want to negotiate favourable terms with?

I can't speak for China nor anyone else in the US but, personally, I tend to side with the UK.  Common language, mostly common ideology, long term relationship (overlooking the early years).  All in, I expect the US and UK to be able to work things out in pretty short order.

Nevertheless, we have two interesting spectacles this year.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on June 13, 2016, 11:09:08 pm
The UK is 4% of GDP, the EU closer to 40 - who do you think the US and China will want to negotiate favourable terms with?

The UK will have to agree to TTIP, and that wil be far far worse for me (and many others) personally that any amount of EU problems.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: NivagSwerdna on June 13, 2016, 11:13:47 pm
The UK will have to agree to TTIP, and that wil be far far worse for me (and many others) personally that any amount of EU problems.
Indeed if the UK remains in the EU then we will get TTIP and in time the NHS will be opened up to US providers and who knows what happens next.
Outside the EU then TTIP looks less likely and certainly will be more open to scrutiny than the secret EU negotiations.
Insane to remain.  8)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: NivagSwerdna on June 13, 2016, 11:25:10 pm
Throw these brits out.
:) With friends like these...

They hardly have a relevant industry left.
That's certainly not far off the mark but then again manufacturing is under great pressure from China and the increased level of automation.  It's going to be hard to be a large scale manufacturer in the future... just look at Steel... massive overcapacity in the EU.
One advantage that we do have is the English language and a pretty respectable education and research base, the digital industries seem to be doing pretty well.

Have a leeching financial section that will sink after the brexit.
Hm... I'm not going to defend financial services as a worthwhile human occupation but I will say that I would look elsewhere for the next big failures... Japan is in meltdown, no one wants their debt anymore, Greece only continues to pay any bills by being given more debt to pay back the same debtors, the Italian banks have been bust for ages and well... I wonder how Deutsche Banks balance sheet will hold up to some stress testing...  The European Central Bank is buying bond junk to prop up bond/equity prices... that won't end well.

Somehow they are delusional in thinking that they are still an important world 'power'.
Nope we gave up on any world domination ideas some time ago; it's self-preservation we are currently working on.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 13, 2016, 11:35:10 pm
Outside the EU then TTIP looks less likely and certainly will be more open to scrutiny than the secret EU negotiations.
:-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 13, 2016, 11:41:19 pm
The UK is 4% of GDP, the EU closer to 40 - who do you think the US and China will want to negotiate favourable terms with?

The UK will have to agree to TTIP, and that wil be far far worse for me (and many others) personally that any amount of EU problems.

Anything that has to be negotiated in secret can't be good.  For anybody...  Hopefully it crashes and burns.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on June 13, 2016, 11:49:54 pm
The UK is 4% of GDP, the EU closer to 40 - who do you think the US and China will want to negotiate favourable terms with?

The UK will have to agree to TTIP, and that wil be far far worse for me (and many others) personally that any amount of EU problems.

Anything that has to be negotiated in secret can't be good.  For anybody...  Hopefully it crashes and burns.

I agree TTIP is evil.   But it is worth noting that the UK government is one of its strongest proponents in the EU.  I think Brexit makes it more likely rather than less that we will sign it.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 14, 2016, 12:18:11 am


... the lights go out (and they will go out) in a few years ...

Wow!

Yes :(  Several "notices of insufficiency" have already been formally issued, but I believe not enacted. (An NoI is a warning to industrial customers that they may have their power cut)

We currently have about 3% excess generating capacity. All it takes is a couple of unscheduled outages.Many large nukes are reaching their end of life and/or having their peak capacity reduced for safety reasons. And we're closing the coal stations. And we are trying to get other countries to finance new gas generating plant.

But of course, the market wisdom is sufficient to solve all problems. Not.

That is true, but staying in the EU will keep the lights on... erm, how exactly?  The ECB can't print leccy!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 14, 2016, 12:38:40 am


... the lights go out (and they will go out) in a few years ...

Wow!

Yes :(  Several "notices of insufficiency" have already been formally issued, but I believe not enacted. (An NoI is a warning to industrial customers that they may have their power cut)

We currently have about 3% excess generating capacity. All it takes is a couple of unscheduled outages.Many large nukes are reaching their end of life and/or having their peak capacity reduced for safety reasons. And we're closing the coal stations. And we are trying to get other countries to finance new gas generating plant.
But of course, the market wisdom is sufficient to solve all problems. Not.
That is true, but staying in the EU will keep the lights on... erm, how exactly?  The ECB can't print leccy!
Simple: by mandating a minimum excess generating capacity! One of the things the EU does right is preventing governments from doing stupid things. As Wuerstchenhund wrote: nowadays people tend to vote against their own best interest and I think there is truth in that statement.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 14, 2016, 02:12:47 am


Simple: by mandating a minimum excess generating capacity! One of the things the EU does right is preventing governments from doing stupid things. As Wuerstchenhund wrote: nowadays people tend to vote against their own best interest and I think there is truth in that statement.

"We know better what's good for you", this time it's a multi level scheme. What's next, the UN knows better what's good for the EU?

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on June 14, 2016, 05:45:25 am
Yes, the NHS has many failings, as does the healthcare of any other country, but that doesn't make it incomparably worse than what rstofer acknowledges to be "an abomination".

I wouldn't call it an abomination, sure, but it's pretty much a failing system which leaves patients worse off than most other western healthcare systems.

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Dental care in the UK is probably the worst I've ever encountered in any first world country, a lot worse than in Germany and even more so than in the US.
Really? So how does the UK manage to share the crown (https://top5ofanything.com/list/7f67f9bf/Countries-with-the-Healthiest-Teeth) for the healthiest teeth of any country in the world with Germany?

Aside from that the website "Top 5 of everything" isn't exactly renowned for being a credible source, had you actually read what it says you'd noticed that it talks about Dental Health of Children, and the study they cite looked at Children's teeth in 2006!  :palm:

And it seems that even for Children today's situation isn't as rosy:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/12077501/Letter-The-NHS-dental-health-system-is-unfit-for-purpose.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/12077501/Letter-The-NHS-dental-health-system-is-unfit-for-purpose.html)
(I know, it's the Torygraph, but that's just a reproduction of the original letter)

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Don't put words in my mouth. I never claimed the NHS was "the envy of the world" I just get upset when Americans assume it to be some kind of third-world hellhole.

It's no 3rd world hellhole, but it's a first world atrocity, mainly due to utter mismanagement and severe under-funding because the populace who claims to care so much about the NHS has been voting for toffs that want to replace the NHS with a US style privatized system.

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And Brits are the only nation given to "inappropriate amounts of national pride", are they?

Maybe not, but then I never heard a German claiming their system is the "envy of the world", and even for most Americans it's uncommon to think their system is superior (they just tend to believe their system is inevitable).
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: kaz911 on June 14, 2016, 07:17:09 am
NHS vs Middle East example...

My father-in-law had a brain hemorrhage in the UK. It paralyzed his face and impaired his speech. As ambulance wait time was 29 minutes (despite being in a rather large city) - my mother-in-law drove him to A&E/Hospital in 8 minutes. There there was no doctor  or nurse pre-exam before 6 hours in - and then another 2 hours wait for a full doctor examination.  And then another 2 hours for medication. So total time spent - 10 hours before treatment. It was a small hemorrhage - but that was not known at the time. But it is a well known fact that brain hemorrhage needs treatment within 3 hours to minimize aftereffects.

12 months later they visit us in Dubai to welcome our first born. At the night before departure back to the UK - my father-in-law has a major stroke. Ambulance called - arrives within 3 minutes! At arrival at the A&E part of the hospital - 3 doctors! stand ready - 1 general managing doctor - 1 stroke doctor and 1 brain hemorrhage doctor. He is rolled STRAIGHT into Scanner with all 3 doctors there - they pass judgement and he is "handed" to the brain hemorrhage specialist doctor. First treatment administrated within 1 hour and 20 minutes. Stroke severity from a scale of 0-20 where 20 is fatal - doctor says about 16. My father-in-law stays in hospital for 4 weeks - and before discharge an "impact" study is done again from scale 0-20. And due to fast reaction - impact scale is only a 3 of 20. Today his is active again - swims 2-3 times a week - paints the house and is not disabled in any way apart from normal aging slightly accelerated.

Total bill from UAE hospital - nothing for first 3 days as intensive care is free/paid by government for ALL. AED 14.000,- for the 4 weeks in hospital including all medications, scans and re-training/physio - AED14.000 is GBP 2700' ish and about $3800. And as he says - had it been on NHS he would have passed away. And the UAE hospital is actually profitable.

So that is why we pay extra for private medical care even in the UK. Minor issues we take to NHS - but major stuff - never ever - straight to the private hospital.

 NHS is caught up in the usual Union battles where a nurse can't change a light-bulb without reprisal from the caretakers union (or what ever "union" they "stole" the work from) - the same thing that killed the Danish medical care system. As system that does not allow or inspire individual decision making or action taking - and fosters a bureaucracy huge and heavy.

But that is not EU's fault (mostly) :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on June 14, 2016, 07:19:58 am
The UK will have to agree to TTIP, and that wil be far far worse for me (and many others) personally that any amount of EU problems.
Indeed if the UK remains in the EU then we will get TTIP and in time the NHS will be opened up to US providers and who knows what happens next.
Outside the EU then TTIP looks less likely and certainly will be more open to scrutiny than the secret EU negotiations.

I suggest you go back and look at the news reports over the past couple of years (i.e. before the referendum nonsense startedd)

You will find that (1) the UK government is far more pro-TTIP than the EU and (2) only the EU is fighting back against it. (And is large enough to offer resistance)

Conclusion: TTIP's effects will be worse if we leave.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on June 14, 2016, 07:27:39 am
NHS vs Middle East example...
... which completely ignores the very basic distinction that the UAE has a far higher per-capita income than the UK, and so can afford it.

OTOH, in the UK surgeons that could personally financially benefit from operating privately choose to advise their patients to have the op done in an NHS hospital. Why? Because if there's a problem at private hospital, they call an ambulance and transfer you to the NHS hospital!

Such selfless advice has been given 100% of the time to my family, in different hospitals, for different operations - it is not a one-off exception.

Having tried both NHS and private options personally, the only advantages of private operations are a better paint colour scheme and more obsequious nursing staff.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Jeroen3 on June 14, 2016, 07:34:56 am
People vote against their interest all the time. Hitler was elected, Mussolini, too. For a more recent example, just look at the 2015 general elections in the UK, or the fellowship of Trump.
We've got one! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 14, 2016, 07:36:18 am
I wonder what happens to the credit rating of UK after a Brexit, from AAA to  :-//
If it tumbles so will the interest rise on their debt and ouch second largest external debt in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt)
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/feb/25/brexit-vote-would-affect-uks-top-credit-score-says-standard-and-poor (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/feb/25/brexit-vote-would-affect-uks-top-credit-score-says-standard-and-poor)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: StuUK on June 14, 2016, 07:37:44 am
People vote against their interest all the time. Hitler was elected, Mussolini, too. For a more recent example, just look at the 2015 general elections in the UK, or the fellowship of Trump.
We've got one! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law)

Chuckle, never fails....
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 14, 2016, 07:51:45 am
Throw these brits out. They hardly have a relevant industry left. Have a leeching financial section that will sink after the brexit.
Somehow they are delusional in thinking that they are still an important world 'power'.

But our GDP is at least 3 times that of NL and I'd be surprised if we don't contribute more to the EU than NL.

3DB      :rant:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: onesixright on June 14, 2016, 07:54:14 am
United we stand, divided we fall.

I don't think you solve problems by leaving. You solve it by talking. Giving up your seat on the table, makes it only harder.

EU should top its endless drift for expansion, and put things in order within the EU.

If you can't stop drugs, people trafficking, etc. Why would you think you can close the borders for terrorists? Its a ludicrous idea, that you can close the border air-tight, even when living on a island. A terrorists is -in a sense- in each and everyone of us, poke them long enough and it will cause (tragic) problems.

When it comes to refugees, I think, each EU country should accept a (equal) % of their own population. They should be spread via a lottery system. If you are running for terror, bullets flying over your head, etc. we should help them. However, I don't think they can pick and choose (ala cart) where they can go. Even better, need to stop people want to flee in the first place. The war in the middle east could be solved long ago, we are just not (truly) committed to end it.

And for Putin. Why the hell they didn't add Russia to the NATO after the wall came down? Problem solved? Of course not, they need a enemy (for both sides). The public opinion is very easily manipulated. Maybe people should have a license to vote (and while we are going, a license to raise children ... )?

We need to realise that everyday we are f*cked over by the politicians that we elect. They only take care of themselves. So how do we make sure they do what we (the people want)?

Time for Democracy 2.0?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: kaz911 on June 14, 2016, 07:54:33 am
NHS vs Middle East example...
... which completely ignores the very basic distinction that the UAE has a far higher per-capita income than the UK, and so can afford it.


I think you ignored me writing the hospital is PROFITABLE. Only the first 3 days of intensive care is subsidized/paid by the Government. All other hospital income is paid for by the users. So it has nothing to do with per capita income.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Zero999 on June 14, 2016, 08:01:01 am
I'm from out of town and my opinion is irrelevant but why should the UK subsidize other countries?  Why take money from UK taxpayers and donate it to non-producers?
Subsidize is possibly the wrong word - I did say support but the essential reason is that we exist in a closed system thus what goes around tends to come around. Keeping people economically active improves their standard of living and ultimately benefits us in return.
The UK is one of the most generous countries there is, with regards to foreign aid. Why do we need the EU telling us who to donate our money to? What if we decided to stop donating to the Europe and put our money into poorer parts of the world, where it's needed more?


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Yes, we need to build houses and schools but it is not the EU's fault that we have not been doing that fast enough but successive governments who have encouraged everyone to go to 5th rate educational institutions to earn a 7th rate piss pot degree rather than running decent training schemes to equip us with the workforce that we need.
Yes it is the EU's fault we've not being building schools and houses fast enough to keep up.

When immigration is controlled by the government, the government can reliably react to population growth because it's relatively stable and predictable. If more children are born, then their births will be registered so the government knows to more school places will be required in five years time and more houses need to be built over the next twenty years. Now anyone can just hop over the channel at any point, resulting in unpredictable population growth and chaos.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 14, 2016, 09:10:17 am
NHS vs Middle East example...
... which completely ignores the very basic distinction that the UAE has a far higher per-capita income than the UK, and so can afford it.
Per capita GDP is about 1.5x the UK (although I suspect that is not the whole story).

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I think you ignored me writing the hospital is PROFITABLE. Only the first 3 days of intensive care is subsidized/paid by the Government. All other hospital income is paid for by the users. So it has nothing to do with per capita income.
It seems unliely if they are charging only $3800 for a month's care. Post stroke care needs a fairly large team of specialist physios and occupational therapists - try costing aup a month's stay in an acute stroke unit in the US.

I would be interested to know the date of your father's first presentation - evidence for thrombolysis in acute ischaemic stroke was coming in around 2007-2008, admittedly the NHS was a little slow off the ground but today, if you presented to a hospital with an acute stroke unit today you should be in the CT scanner within an hour, probably within 30 minutes as you are correct in that thrombolysis (clot dissolving) therapy should be given within three hours of symptoms developing.

As for haemorrhagic strokes - management is still "conservative" - there is no real role for surgery and initial therapy is supportive, perhaps managing raised ntracranial pressure helps. Certainly treatment in a specialist unit helps improve outcomes.

The NHS is not without its problems, certainly, it was dire in the 1970's worse in the 1980's and then got markedly better with increased resources. Unfortunately it has been going downhill again recently and it is clear that Cameron's plan is to get it off the government's balance sheet and sod the effect on care.

As for private care in the UK - well, I do have private insurance, but would not want anything major done in a private hospital. It certainly would not have helped you in the case of an acute stroke.

But the NHS is tangential to the current argument - except for Vote Leave blathering on (largely dishonestly) about how  much more money we would have to spend on the Nash if we pull out of Europe - deliberately linking the current state of the NHS with our membership of the EU when it has pretty much bugger all to do with it.

I note that the Vote Leave campaign has promised all sorts of monies would be available if we pull out - amounting to rather more than even their inflated estimates of how much EU membership costs us.

Quote from: Hero99
Yes it is the EU's fault we've not being building schools and houses fast enough to keep up.

When immigration is controlled by the government, the government can reliably react to population growth because it's relatively stable and predictable. If more children are born, then their births will be registered so the government knows to more school places will be required in five years time and more houses need to be built over the next twenty years. Now anyone can just hop over the channel at any point, resulting in unpredictable population growth and chaos.
No, it is not - the shortfall in housing extends back 20-30 years due to massive reduction in local authority building programmes and the immigration that everyone is worrying about dates back over the last 8-10 years.

(https://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/new-homes-built-by-sector.jpg)

If you believe government will reliably react to anything then you have a lot more fath in politicians than I do.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on June 14, 2016, 09:34:04 am
As for private care in the UK - well, I do have private insurance, but would not want anything major done in a private hospital.

Precisely. That was the case for one of the surgeries I alluded to.

Fortunately I was able to persuade the NHS to bill the insurance company for a remarkably low £24000 (two world class surgeons, 8 hour operation).
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rolycat on June 14, 2016, 10:59:11 am
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Dental care in the UK is probably the worst I've ever encountered in any first world country, a lot worse than in Germany and even more so than in the US.
Really? So how does the UK manage to share the crown (https://top5ofanything.com/list/7f67f9bf/Countries-with-the-Healthiest-Teeth) for the healthiest teeth of any country in the world with Germany?

Aside from that the website "Top 5 of everything" isn't exactly renowned for being a credible source, had you actually read what it says you'd noticed that it talks about Dental Health of Children, and the study they cite looked at Children's teeth in 2006!  :palm:
The source was the OECD, which is generally regarded as fairly credible. Astonishingly enough I did read what it says, which is why I noticed that you conveniently omitted that it was the latest data available as of April 2015. And the health of children's teeth provides a better indicator of prevailing standards of care.

You can find anecdotal evidence to support whatever you want to believe, but your claim that dental care in the UK is "the worst" is demonstrably false. For a more nuanced assessment, take a look at this BBC article (http://), which references a recent World Health Organisation report.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 14, 2016, 11:18:17 am
Throw these brits out. They hardly have a relevant industry left. Have a leeching financial section that will sink after the brexit.

Please throw us out !!
Aerospace sector ?
Pharmaceutical sector ?
Defense sector ?

 |O



Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 14, 2016, 11:25:13 am
Looks like it is a spammer, he posted the same thing last page under a different username.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 14, 2016, 11:26:57 am
"
And for Putin. Why the hell they didn't add Russia to the NATO after the wall came down? Problem solved? Of course not, they need a enemy (for both sides)."

Yeah. Some recently declassified documents suggest that Russia tried to join thee NATO and was turned down, giving birth to the Warsaw pack and the cold war, which potentially could have wiped out humanity.

Who is behind all this? Just look at who benefited from this.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 14, 2016, 11:31:10 am
Who is behind all this? Just look at who benefited from this.
I never thought of you as a conspiracy theorist, more like a "give me the clear numbers and I tell you what is going on".
So who benefitted? Arm dealers? naaah they don't sell nuclear arms (yet).
Defense contractors? Hmmm maybe but they are still peanuts compared to Apple for instance  :)
But I do wonder where all the arms come from when somewhere a war is going on that nobody wants. There are only a few countries that make arms and they were supposed to be against the war in Syria, so where the hell do all the guns come from? Follow the moneytrail  ;)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: FrankD on June 14, 2016, 12:46:58 pm
Looks like it is a spammer, he posted the same thing last page under a different username.

Not a spammer. Somebody stole my line.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 14, 2016, 01:16:21 pm
"But I do wonder where all the arms come from when somewhere a war is going on that nobody wants. "

Lots of people want that war, for different reasons. Some are known, and others speculated.

Many more arr working hard against their own interests too.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Zero999 on June 14, 2016, 01:36:09 pm
No, it is not - the shortfall in housing extends back 20-30 years due to massive reduction in local authority building programmes and the immigration that everyone is worrying about dates back over the last 8-10 years.
As far as housing is concerned, yes the UK shares some of the blame but the EU is hardly blameless.

Education is another matter though.  There was no way to predict the massive increase in school age children and the fact that a lot of them don't have English as a first language doesn't help either.

Quote
If you believe government will reliably react to anything then you have a lot more fath in politicians than I do.
I have more faith in the the UK government than I do in the EU politburo.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: onesixright on June 14, 2016, 01:37:40 pm
Wel one reason:

Zeitgeist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTbIu8Zeqp0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTbIu8Zeqp0)

The world is a sick place...


Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 14, 2016, 02:59:59 pm
Education is another matter though.  There was no way to predict the massive increase in school age children and the fact that a lot of them don't have English as a first language doesn't help either.

Quote
If you believe government will reliably react to anything then you have a lot more fath in politicians than I do.
I have more faith in the the UK government than I do in the EU politburo.

OK, yes migration has had an impact on school numbers. there is a review here http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/365 (http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/365)

One pertinent comment is:

"In 2013 there were a recorded 779,000 births in the UK of which 25% (197,000) were to non-UK born mothers. This compares with 669,000 births in the UK in 2002 of which 17% (110,500) were to non-UK born mothers."

So, 110,000 more births per annum (an increase of 16.4%) of which 86,500 were attributable to migration, plus perhaps an additional 10,000 per year under 15's who were born outside the UK. Also there was some increase of about 23,500 extra births to mothers themselves born in the UK so there is a general upward trend at present. Also note that we have not broken down that figure into EU and non EU, nor looked at the impact of the migration from the 2004 expansion of the EU (predominantly Poland) or the 2007 expansion (Bulgaria and Romania).

But the problem I have here is that a government who is able to "reliably react to change" has, on average, 4.5 years to provide a primary school place and 11.5 years to provide a secondary school place - remember these are births we are talkng about predominantly, not direct migration.

Despite this there is a shortfall which the government could have easily predicted and reacted to - but failed to do so adequately. It's not as if the parents of the extra kids are not, on the whole, economically active (see previous discussion) - so they were contributing to the tax revenues needed to increase school places.

On the general question of the cost of EU membership this is a good graphc which breaks down government spending of tax revenue.

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02871/taxtable1_2871685b.jpg)

Note the very tiny slice which goes to the EU.



Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on June 14, 2016, 03:39:06 pm
I have more faith in the the UK government than I do in the EU politburo.

I don't, having seen the UK politician's actions and inactions over the decades. That continues: the standard of the current debate is a national disgrace, and all sides are lying through their teeth.

The only significant question is which side is telling the more egregious self-serving lies. Currently it looks like the exit shower are marginally worse.

I'd love to find a way of skewering the current UK (and other) political classes, but unfortunately voting exit will skewer me more than it will skewer them :(
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 14, 2016, 04:42:35 pm
The only significant question is which side is telling the more egregious self-serving lies.

Your own claim that the lights will go off a few years after the exit was also kind of out there.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Jeroen3 on June 14, 2016, 04:56:27 pm
No. The United Kingdom is better than Venezuela. The lights won't go out.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 14, 2016, 05:14:33 pm
No. The United Kingdom is better than Venezuela. The lights won't go out.

Maybe, maybe not.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jan/26/engineers-warn-of-looming-uk-energy-gap (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jan/26/engineers-warn-of-looming-uk-energy-gap)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on June 14, 2016, 05:24:20 pm
The only significant question is which side is telling the more egregious self-serving lies.
Your own claim that the lights will go off a few years after the exit was also kind of out there.

Firstly that's a strawman argument: I was making the point about (lack of) sovereignty not about whether it was more likely in/out.

Secondly, they will go out in a few years - unless significant amounts of new generating plant are brought online. I've been to IET meetings where that (rhetorical) question has been posed by those that are extremely knowledgable about the supply industry; that was their answer. That is true whether we are inside or outside the EU.

"National Grid has for the first time [2015-11-04] used “last resort” emergency powers to tell companies to reduce their electricity usage in an effort to avoid the risk of blackouts." https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/nov/04/national-grid-issues-urgent-call-for-extra-power (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/nov/04/national-grid-issues-urgent-call-for-extra-power)

"O’Hara said [National] Grid’s own models suggest that between 7-10 further NISMs may occur over winter, but that other variables could lead to more or fewer market alerts." Fortunately (?) it was a very warm winter. http://theenergyst.com/national-grid-plays-down-blackout-fears/ (http://theenergyst.com/national-grid-plays-down-blackout-fears/)

"The UK is facing an unprecedented “energy gap” in a decade’s time, according to engineers, with demand for electricity likely to outstrip supply by more than 40%, which could lead to blackouts." https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jan/26/engineers-warn-of-looming-uk-energy-gap (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jan/26/engineers-warn-of-looming-uk-energy-gap)

Finally, there is a secondary question as to whether the investment is more/less likely to be made when we are in/out. That is intensely political, e.g. EDF's finance director resigned very publically over political pressure (to close a deal) from the French government. Is that political pressure more/less likely to occur if we are in/out?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on June 14, 2016, 05:29:20 pm
The United Kingdom is better than Venezuela. The lights won't go out.

Yes, and no. See my previous post.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 14, 2016, 05:30:41 pm
That is true whether we are inside or outside the EU.

Ok, I thought that you are tying the lights-off to Brexit, now I understand you don't.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on June 14, 2016, 05:35:21 pm
That is true whether we are inside or outside the EU.
Ok, I thought that you are tying the lights-off to Brexit, now I understand you don't.

Due to the intense political activity in this area, I think lights out is marginally more likely to happen if we Brexit.

Lights going out will cause riots in the streets. "Loss of sovereignty" hasn't caused anything remotely like that. Hence any imagined sovereignty is demonstrably less important.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 14, 2016, 06:10:50 pm


That is true whether we are inside or outside the EU.
Ok, I thought that you are tying the lights-off to Brexit, now I understand you don't.

Due to the intense political activity in this area, I think lights out is marginally more likely to happen if we Brexit.

Lights going out will cause riots in the streets. "Loss of sovereignty" hasn't caused anything remotely like that. Hence any imagined sovereignty is demonstrably less important.

So, marginally more likely riots in the streets due to lights off if Brexit?  :)

All that FUD will go away after the vote, regardless of the outcome.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Howardlong on June 14, 2016, 07:58:05 pm
I see that the perennial bellwether of elections, referenda and a quality publication to boot, The Sun newspaper has come out today as a BeLeaver (excuse the pun).

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1277920/we-urge-our-readers-to-believe-in-britain-and-vote-to-leave-the-eu-in-referendum-on-june-23/ (https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1277920/we-urge-our-readers-to-believe-in-britain-and-vote-to-leave-the-eu-in-referendum-on-june-23/)

For the uninitiated, The Sun, a Murdoch rag and regular purveyor of facsimiles of the female form, has sucessfully backed pretty much every vote I can remember over the past 30 years or so. Whether they have pulled the right straw on this one remains to be seen.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: NivagSwerdna on June 14, 2016, 09:16:12 pm
Whether they have pulled the right straw on this one remains to be seen.
Hm.  So a bit like my SatNav... gets it wrong for most of the trip and then converges on the correct arrival time as you approach your destination?
Should be a fun day tomorrow, I'll be down by the Thames riverside to cheer the fishing flotilla as it heads up to Westminster.
Insane to remain.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on June 14, 2016, 09:26:31 pm


That is true whether we are inside or outside the EU.
Ok, I thought that you are tying the lights-off to Brexit, now I understand you don't.

Due to the intense political activity in this area, I think lights out is marginally more likely to happen if we Brexit.

Lights going out will cause riots in the streets. "Loss of sovereignty" hasn't caused anything remotely like that. Hence any imagined sovereignty is demonstrably less important.

So, marginally more likely riots in the streets due to lights off if Brexit?  :)

All that FUD will go away after the vote, regardless of the outcome.

Well, firstly it's a bit more on topic than Brexit, and secondly we have been slipping gradually towards an electricity supply disaster since we sold the Central Electricity Generating Board thirty years ago to various crooks who were overjoyed to find they had purchased no responsibility for supply resilience.  And things that might happen in twenty years are of no interest to politicians. 

Now a solution that will certainly take more than ten years seems to be of similarly little interest.   The politicians are just hoping they won't be the ones in charge when we start having rotating power cuts.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 14, 2016, 09:45:19 pm
So what? Many things we took for granted today were once alienn to us: science, anti slavery, same sex marriage,  equal rights for minorities, votig rights forr women, democracy, ......

If we didn't allow alien expressions, we would still be livining caves

You are rambling somewhat incomprehensibly and are still inventing stuff that you imagine I said or think, so I'll answer what appear to be a question.

All those are internal changes to a society, so it's a debate of consent amongst ourselves.
Immigration is fundamentally a debate over accommodating external cultures.

Nobody in the UK has consented to the mass importation of a goat herding culture, simply because we don't have enough goats to go around, and we'd rather our community resources be reserved for people who are still useful in the 12th/21st century.

We are never going to run short of Jewish Scientists or Indian Doctors, so why bother trying to accommodate anyone from cultures that fundamentally don't fit in.
There is never going to be a time when we run short of our incumbent followers of sky pixies, of which 50% in the UK are homophobic, thus importing more makes no sense.
There is never going to be a time when we can say, "yep none of our sky pixie residents are going to go postal and kill 50 LGBT people", because sky pixie people are all turning out to be inherently unpredictable. It costs under an absolute fortune for our intelligence departments to monitor them 24/7/365.

How many new hashtags and midnight candles do we want to repeat before admitting that diversity which bloody mindedly insists on including this religion isn't working, that 1%-99% of their culture hates us and that's a good enough reason not to put up with their shit any more.
Yes it sucks to be a moderate Arab but religious violence and hate is their cultural baggage, not ours, the Left needs to stop making excuses for a homophobic, misogynistic, medieval culture.
Being a religion/minority/different colour is amazingly not an excuse to inflict your retarded shit on other countries.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on June 14, 2016, 10:05:36 pm
The politicians are just hoping they won't be the ones in charge when we start having rotating power cuts.
Amother infamous example of such myopia is, of course, paying for the building works on the Houses of Parliament.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 14, 2016, 10:33:33 pm
Lights going out will cause riots in the streets. "Loss of sovereignty" hasn't caused anything remotely like that.

Germany is headed for destruction within a single generation (http://newobserveronline.com/germany-nonwhites-majority-in-one-generation/). You think after muslims get more political power they will be smart enough to put the economy over handouts/jizya from the kafirs? You think the most productive people in Europe will stay when this all goes down?

We have years to solve this before it becomes unsolvable without ethnic cleansing. It seems unlikely anything will be solved within the EU. I for one am no longer optimistic about solutions, but I doubt we will make war either. We will go quietly into the night, waving to the best of us as they leave us behind (white flight). South Africa is the model for western Europe, they have a lot of trouble keeping the lights on as well.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Rick Law on June 14, 2016, 10:59:39 pm
Together we stand, divided we fall... It's never a good thing to lose influence... Not for the EU and not for you Brits.  :(

Trouble is, putting all the eggs in one basket means if the basket drops, all eggs are broken.

History shows there are bad people who manage to get into power.  Had Europe been a single unified government (no Britain) when Hitler got into power, there would have been no recovery.  America would not be able to do what it did without the "unsinkable aircraft carrier" that was the British Island.

The more nations, the more the competition, and the more the options.  Competition helps every nation improve themselves.  When a nation becomes a failed nation, that it is not a "one world government" means (a) the average folks has examples how other nations work better and (b) some place to run to for safety.  With a "single world unified government", folks will have no where to go.  They will be totally under the thumb of the bad lone government.

Nations are choices available for people.  A smaller number of nations means a smaller number of available alternatives for people.  Governments are never fond of giving there own people choices. 

That said, it is important to add that that I am not in favor of unrestrained immigration.  A nation must have control of its identity, otherwise, it is a a piece of land without distinquishing characteristics.  Immigrants must understand that if they make their new home just like their old (non-assimulation), then the new home will have all the negatives of the home from which they escaped.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 14, 2016, 11:44:25 pm
The more nations, the more the competition, and the more the options.  Competition helps every nation improve themselves.  When a nation becomes a failed nation, that it is not a "one world government" means (a) the average folks has examples how other nations work better and (b) some place to run to for safety.  With a "single world unified government", folks will have no where to go.  They will be totally under the thumb of the bad lone government.
Oh my. More nations you say, competition? Well, and then comes one big nation and deals with each smaller nation one by one. EDIT: //As you mentioned Hitler, he had been allowed to do exactly that until it became already too late for larger countries too.//
Bunch of independent cockroaches I may say. Unless country is really big, it cannot pull any grand projects like space launches, therefore get outperformed by those who can pull off that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_rule (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_rule)
How do you think USA managed to to ruin Soviet union? The major thing was get it divided it into pieces on national basis. All of the former might and economy of the newly formed countries was ruined in instant.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 15, 2016, 12:10:10 am
The more nations, the more the competition, and the more the options.  Competition helps every nation improve themselves.  When a nation becomes a failed nation, that it is not a "one world government" means (a) the average folks has examples how other nations work better and (b) some place to run to for safety.  With a "single world unified government", folks will have no where to go.  They will be totally under the thumb of the bad lone government.
Oh my. More nations you say, competition? Well, and then comes one big nation and deals with each smaller nation one by one. EDIT: //As you mentioned Hitler, he had been allowed to do exactly that until it became already too late for larger countries too.//
Bunch of independent cockroaches I may say. Unless country is really big, it cannot pull any grand projects like space launches, therefore get outperformed by those who can pull off that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_rule (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_rule)
How do you think USA managed to to ruin Soviet union? The major thing was get it divided it into pieces on national basis. All of the former might and economy of the newly formed countries was ruined in instant.
Uhhh... isn't the US currently depending on Russia to launch rockets to the ISS? Speaking of which: the ISS is a collaboration of many countries. In other words: it doesn't matter whether a country is big or small as long as the countries are willing to work together great things can be achieved.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 15, 2016, 12:17:48 am
Uhhh... isn't the US currently depending on Russia to launch rockets to the ISS? Speaking of which: the ISS is a collaboration of many countries. In other words: it doesn't matter whether a country is big or small as long as the countries are willing to work together great things can be achieved.
That's only because they lost big competition and proceeded to (successfully) conquer the rest of the world instead. Look what was happening in the Middle East and even Europe (Yugoslavia) during the last decades. All the time they bomb someone. If USSR was there, they would never even try what now is considered almost as given.
Quote
as long as the countries are willing to work together great things can be achieved.
Had a good laugh before going to sleep.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: xrunner on June 15, 2016, 12:20:55 am
Another topic gone astray ...  :popcorn:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 15, 2016, 01:46:39 am
The bets are still on Stay, despite the recent polls

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/eu-referendum/referendum-on-eu-membership-result?selectionName=leave (http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/eu-referendum/referendum-on-eu-membership-result?selectionName=leave)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on June 15, 2016, 02:44:02 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5BGGXoLIYI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5BGGXoLIYI)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Rick Law on June 15, 2016, 04:49:28 am
The more nations, the more the competition, and the more the options.  Competition helps every nation improve themselves.  When a nation becomes a failed nation, that it is not a "one world government" means (a) the average folks has examples how other nations work better and (b) some place to run to for safety.  With a "single world unified government", folks will have no where to go.  They will be totally under the thumb of the bad lone government.
Oh my. More nations you say, competition? Well, and then comes one big nation and deals with each smaller nation one by one. EDIT: //As you mentioned Hitler, he had been allowed to do exactly that until it became already too late for larger countries too.//
Bunch of independent cockroaches I may say. Unless country is really big, it cannot pull any grand projects like space launches, therefore get outperformed by those who can pull off that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_rule (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_rule)
How do you think USA managed to to ruin Soviet union? The major thing was get it divided it into pieces on national basis. All of the former might and economy of the newly formed countries was ruined in instant.
Uhhh... isn't the US currently depending on Russia to launch rockets to the ISS? Speaking of which: the ISS is a collaboration of many countries. In other words: it doesn't matter whether a country is big or small as long as the countries are willing to work together great things can be achieved.

In mere 10 years of the space race, USA reached the moon.

Had USA and USSR been competing all these years since then, we would have been on Mars by now with a good size settlement instead of sharing rockets to the toy called ISS.

The removal of competition has been the most destructive force towards progress.

Imagine the progress we would have made had there been 3 or 4 super colliders competing instead of just one...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on June 15, 2016, 05:02:09 am
Imagine the progress we would have made had there been 3 or 4 super collides competing...

The USA had one under way in Texas, but after spending a billion dollars, Congress canceled the project on October 21, 1993.

Unless I'm mistaken, competition had nothing to do with it - and it was simple short-sightedness and ignorance wrapped up in the pressures of politics.  It has been said by some that the failure came down to the scientists not communicating the significance of what it might achieve ... and that Congress viewed the Higgs as 'just another particle'.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Howardlong on June 15, 2016, 05:12:48 am
The bets are still on Stay, despite the recent polls

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/eu-referendum/referendum-on-eu-membership-result?selectionName=leave (http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/eu-referendum/referendum-on-eu-membership-result?selectionName=leave)

Yes, although the odds have been shortening on a Brexit particularly in the past few days as a series of polls have suggested a majority are for Brexit.

How people will vote at the ballot box isn't the same thing though, I can imagine many people who are not fully committed will vote remain as it's human nature to be risk averse and resist change. This occurred to some degree during the Scottish referendum vote which was too close to call.

I am sure that privately the SNP, a Scottish party who favour a Scottish breakup also want a Brexit, as that will likely trigger a second Scottish referendum, although that's not what they're publicly stating, favouring a remain vote when it comes to the EU. It's a stance that's never been explained to me, demand independance from one parliament that you have a reasonable amount of representation in to one where you don't, but that's another story.

The UKopposition leader is officially in the remain camp, although it seems to be rather begrudging: I am not at all convinced he means it.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Someone on June 15, 2016, 05:15:19 am
For the uninitiated, The Sun, a Murdoch rag and regular purveyor of facsimiles of the female form, has sucessfully backed pretty much every vote I can remember over the past 30 years or so. Whether they have pulled the right straw on this one remains to be seen.
Or you've greatly underestimated the power of the press to leadset public opinion.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Rick Law on June 15, 2016, 05:15:55 am
The more nations, the more the competition, and the more the options.  Competition helps every nation improve themselves.  When a nation becomes a failed nation, that it is not a "one world government" means (a) the average folks has examples how other nations work better and (b) some place to run to for safety.  With a "single world unified government", folks will have no where to go.  They will be totally under the thumb of the bad lone government.
Oh my. More nations you say, competition? Well, and then comes one big nation and deals with each smaller nation one by one. EDIT: //As you mentioned Hitler, he had been allowed to do exactly that until it became already too late for larger countries too.//
Bunch of independent cockroaches I may say. Unless country is really big, it cannot pull any grand projects like space launches, therefore get outperformed by those who can pull off that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_rule (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_rule)
How do you think USA managed to to ruin Soviet union? The major thing was get it divided it into pieces on national basis. All of the former might and economy of the newly formed countries was ruined in instant.

I would not consider Wiki the definitive source of history.  Many operatives (officials) of the era in TV interviews described our (USA's) strategy as outspend them until they run out of money.

A single bigger nation is not the only solution.  Smaller nations can form federations or coalition or mutual defense packs.

When all the eggs are in one lone basket, one defect (broken basket handle) will drop all the eggs.  A dozen baskets to carry two dozen eggs may be inefficient, but it certainly increase the probability that some will survive.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Rick Law on June 15, 2016, 05:24:24 am
Imagine the progress we would have made had there been 3 or 4 super collides competing...

The USA had one under way in Texas, but after spending a billion dollars, Congress canceled the project on October 21, 1993.

Unless I'm mistaken, competition had nothing to do with it - and it was simple short-sightedness and ignorance wrapped up in the pressures of politics.  It has been said by some that the failure came down to the scientists not communicating the significance of what it might achieve ... and that Congress viewed the Higgs as 'just another particle'.

Yeah, I was very very displeased by the Texas collider construction shutdown.  With Fermi Lab also shut down, I am not sure we have anything close to high energy collider anymore.

When there is no one else I can compare to, I cannot be the slowest.  So now I am free to gloat about how fast I got things done while taking it slow.

Competition is the key to accelerate progress, whether it is with space, science, education or the very dull day-to-day living standard.  "Keeping up with the Joneses" probably made more living standard improvement than the "Great Society" program implemented by LBJ.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tszaboo on June 15, 2016, 08:29:02 am
Uhhh... isn't the US currently depending on Russia to launch rockets to the ISS? Speaking of which: the ISS is a collaboration of many countries. In other words: it doesn't matter whether a country is big or small as long as the countries are willing to work together great things can be achieved.
It always amazes me that people think that the USA won the space race. They lost in almost everything.
Intercontinental ballistic missile (August 1957)
Artificial satellite (October 1957)
Dog in space (November 1957)
Satellite to orbit the moon (1959)
Man into space (April 1961)
Man to spend a day in orbit (August 1961)
Long-duration flight for five days (June 1963)
Woman in space (June 1963)
Man to perform a spacewalk (March 1965)
Add stuff like the MIR, the Lunokhods, the Molniya satellites... And the fact that they are currently able to send stuff to orbit, unlike NASA.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 15, 2016, 08:35:17 am
Uhhh... isn't the US currently depending on Russia to launch rockets to the ISS? Speaking of which: the ISS is a collaboration of many countries. In other words: it doesn't matter whether a country is big or small as long as the countries are willing to work together great things can be achieved.
That's only because they lost big competition and proceeded to (successfully) conquer the rest of the world instead. Look what was happening in the Middle East and even Europe (Yugoslavia) during the last decades. All the time they bomb someone. If USSR was there, they would never even try what now is considered almost as given.
Quote
as long as the countries are willing to work together great things can be achieved.
Had a good laugh before going to sleep.

What's so funny ?
USA buys the Russian engine because they have NOTHING better.
The world is better when nations work together.   |O
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: EEVblog on June 15, 2016, 08:46:51 am
I'm surprised at the poll, roughly split down the middle. I would have expected a much higher GO vote among an educated technical audience?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 15, 2016, 08:53:38 am
Had USA and USSR been competing all these years since then, we would have been on Mars by now with a good size settlement instead of sharing rockets to the toy called ISS.

The removal of competition has been the most destructive force towards progress.

Imagine the progress we would have made had there been 3 or 4 super colliders competing instead of just one...
So how it gets to the point that breakup of the USSR removed the competition but breakup of EU must increase it?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on June 15, 2016, 09:03:54 am
Makes me wonder, who's in favor of breaking up the United States of America into independent / sovereign states?

The provinces of Canada?
The states of Australia?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 15, 2016, 09:08:02 am
Uhhh... isn't the US currently depending on Russia to launch rockets to the ISS? Speaking of which: the ISS is a collaboration of many countries. In other words: it doesn't matter whether a country is big or small as long as the countries are willing to work together great things can be achieved.
That's only because they lost big competition and proceeded to (successfully) conquer the rest of the world instead. Look what was happening in the Middle East and even Europe (Yugoslavia) during the last decades. All the time they bomb someone. If USSR was there, they would never even try what now is considered almost as given.
Quote
as long as the countries are willing to work together great things can be achieved.
Had a good laugh before going to sleep.

What's so funny ?
USA buys the Russian engine because they have NOTHING better.
The world is better when nations work together.   |O
Because they almost never will honestly work together for greater good. Why Russians sell those engines? Because their space industry was desperate after USSR collapse. Also those engines won't be sold for long. Russia don't plan ISS collaboration to last for long as well.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on June 15, 2016, 09:16:27 am
I'm surprised at the poll, roughly split down the middle. I would have expected a much higher GO vote among an educated technical audience?

It is the opposite: the young and the rich want to stay, the old and the poor want to leave.

As usual, The Economist gives good info:  http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/06/britain-s-eu-referendum (http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/06/britain-s-eu-referendum)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: EEVblog on June 15, 2016, 09:17:38 am
Makes me wonder, who's in favor of breaking up the United States of America into independent / sovereign states?
The provinces of Canada?
The states of Australia?

Hardly anyone. Because, you know, countries.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rolycat on June 15, 2016, 09:40:15 am
Makes me wonder, who's in favor of breaking up the United States of America into independent / sovereign states?

The last time they tried that the resulting conflict killed more Americans than any other war in history.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on June 15, 2016, 10:06:55 am
I'm surprised at the poll, roughly split down the middle. I would have expected a much higher GO vote among an educated technical audience?

I see the division in another way.

-The people who got their income their whole life from BIG GOVERMENT, army, librarian,... or are into subsidized fields vote stay, afraid to loose taxmoney.

-The people who work for de-facto private companies or are de-facto independent in unsubsidized fields vote leave, afraid to have to pay more taxmoney.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: kaz911 on June 15, 2016, 10:15:47 am
Makes me wonder, who's in favor of breaking up the United States of America into independent / sovereign states?
The provinces of Canada?
The states of Australia?

Hardly anyone. Because, you know, countries.

Just ask in Texas....
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 15, 2016, 10:50:38 am
I'm surprised at the poll, roughly split down the middle. I would have expected a much higher GO vote among an educated technical audience?

I see the division in another way.

-The people who got their income their whole life from BIG GOVERMENT, army, librarian,... or are into subsidized fields vote stay, afraid to loose taxmoney.

-The people who work for de-facto private companies or are de-facto independent in unsubsidized fields vote leave, afraid to have to pay more taxmoney.

Poll analysts reported that these 'money/work/education/commercial' considerations don't play a tipping role in the poll results.

They say that people with objective interests in a particular outcome who plan to vote against that outcome are found equally on both sides ...

Now, these are poll. We don't follow the same decision process for a poll as in the voting cabin.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 15, 2016, 11:01:08 am
Just ask in Texas....

It's 40% hispanic ...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 15, 2016, 11:07:21 am
"The more nations, the more the competition, and the more the options.  "

I would agree. In the policy circles, people are beginning to realize that the peace dividend of winning the cold war is more like peace poison over the last few decades in its emboldenning of risk taking that would have been unthinkable had another strong power existed.

I'm personally a believer of a multi polar world where there exists AA balance of power, thus long lasting peace. It is good for everyone.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: NivagSwerdna on June 15, 2016, 12:04:20 pm
I'm surprised at the poll, roughly split down the middle. I would have expected a much higher GO vote among an educated technical audience?
The educated ones are 100% Go!   :-DD
To remain is insane.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 15, 2016, 12:26:44 pm
I'm surprised at the poll, roughly split down the middle. I would have expected a much higher GO vote among an educated technical audience?
The educated ones are 100% Go!   :-DD
To remain is insane.
Educated in what? Polls show it is opposite, those who are smart enough to be rich, are more against it. Breakup never ends well, especially in the near future. Living in the country which have experienced this stuff (although in much bigger scale, UK is a country by itself after all), I cannot say that those who vote for it, do have a tiny clue what will happen next. Here we experienced a complete chaos. And I cannot say that after 25 years it have completely settled.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: NivagSwerdna on June 15, 2016, 12:31:12 pm
Educated in what? Polls show it is opposite, those who are smart enough to be rich, are more against it.
You shouldn't believe everything you read.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 15, 2016, 12:36:44 pm
Educated in what? Polls show it is opposite, those who are smart enough to be rich, are more against it.
You shouldn't believe everything you read.
Yet you call that 100% those against are insane??? There are tons of people in UK which will be directly negatively affected right away. Anyone who is exporting something will feel BREXIT on own skin.
EDIT: For example Simon (SparkyLabs) on this forum. Guess there will be significantly less of those who will to buy uCurrent from him.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 15, 2016, 12:39:22 pm
Interesting to see the stats on age, looks like the future generations want to stay in and the generation from the past likes to leave.
What if those young ones will leave the UK?  ;)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: NivagSwerdna on June 15, 2016, 12:47:25 pm
Yet you call that 100% those against are insane???
No I didn't.  I said it was "insane to remain", which is something I believe.  The remain supporters are misguided, although probably a few are insane.  :-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 15, 2016, 12:56:40 pm
"looks like the future generations want to stay in and the generation from the past likes to leave.
What if those young ones will leave the UK?  ;)"

I have heard that too. Thus the call your grand mom campaign.

Young people are interesting. They seem to support policies that absolutely kill them in the long run.

Like someone said to me: when you are young and Republican, you have no heart. When you are old and Democrat, you have no brain. :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: FrankD on June 15, 2016, 01:11:52 pm
A Brexit will be followed by a buy out. Gb still must pay there share in the dept that needs to be paid off by the EU. :scared: at a higher interest rate.

It is also foolish to think that the tax 'savings' from the brexit will benefit all. These usually ends up with the 10% of the population that controls 90% of the wealth.
The economic growth in the last 20..30 years is an illusion. It is mostly coming from running a higher national debt.

UK already has a better terms than the other EU countries. Those will be gone together with the veto rights on legislation.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: NivagSwerdna on June 15, 2016, 01:47:47 pm
I was at Tower Bridge this morning, whilst on the way to work, to see the flotilla of trawlers go up the Thames.  The skippers are hard working fishermen who had a democratic right to have their voices heard.  What happened next saddened me, the behavior of the remain camp, Geldorf in particular, to disrupt freedom of speech by blaring out loud music whilst shouting and gesticulating obscenities was tragic.  I hope this gets the coverage it should, it was a clear demonstration of how democracy is dead on the remain side of the argument.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 15, 2016, 01:49:53 pm

The UKopposition leader is officially in the remain camp, although it seems to be rather begrudging: I am not at all convinced he means it.

Jezza Corbyn is an old school lefty, part of the Old Labour party.  I think his policies are daft, but at least he is a man of principle.

Or so I thought until all this!

He has always been a Eurosceptic, and voted against the EU in the past.  And yet he has somehow been brow-beaten into supporting remain!
How on earth is it Old Left to support the state approved import of cheap labour from poorer countries?  The founders of the labour political movement would be spinning in their graves to see such a sell-out.  That's why Corbyn has been so quite on this.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 15, 2016, 02:04:42 pm
"What happened next saddened me, the behavior of the remain camp, Geldorf in particular, to disrupt freedom of speech by blaring out loud music whilst shouting and gesticulating obscenities was tragic.  I hope this gets the coverage it should, it was a clear demon"

Thats no different from those protestors at Trump rallies who try to shoot him out, block venues to his rally and attack his supporters.

The left is tokerant of any view as long as it is consistent with theirs.

It is often the case that people who demand diversity of others are the least tolerant to diversity themselves.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: NivagSwerdna on June 15, 2016, 02:08:07 pm
The left is tokerant of any view as long as it is consistent with theirs.
Maybe it's not just the left.  Maybe we have outgrown tolerance... if so, it won't end well.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on June 15, 2016, 02:28:15 pm
I'm personally a believer of a multi polar world where there exists AA balance of power, thus long lasting peace. It is good for everyone.

You ought to study game theory. It is always the case that such things are unstable, and will eventually settle down to two opposing power blocks.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Rick Law on June 15, 2016, 05:14:24 pm
Uhhh... isn't the US currently depending on Russia to launch rockets to the ISS? Speaking of which: the ISS is a collaboration of many countries. In other words: it doesn't matter whether a country is big or small as long as the countries are willing to work together great things can be achieved.
It always amazes me that people think that the USA won the space race. They lost in almost everything.
Intercontinental ballistic missile (August 1957)
Artificial satellite (October 1957)
Dog in space (November 1957)
Satellite to orbit the moon (1959)
Man into space (April 1961)
Man to spend a day in orbit (August 1961)
Long-duration flight for five days (June 1963)
Woman in space (June 1963)
Man to perform a spacewalk (March 1965)
Add stuff like the MIR, the Lunokhods, the Molniya satellites... And the fact that they are currently able to send stuff to orbit, unlike NASA.

I did not say whether USA won (or not).  The statement I made was that "we reached the moon within 10 years."  That was huge development.  Some consider "we won" because we reached the moon first.  Whoever the winner was, neither USA nor USSR did much after the space race was over.

That both were doing-less supports my point that absences the pressure of competition, the progress is impeded.

I futher posited that had the Space Race continued to this day, we may be on Mars already.  Instead, absence competition, we drew blanks after blanks once the Apollo program ended.  To add insult to injury, one of NASA primary goal now is Muslim Outreach*1.  I don't care if it is Muslim outreach or Buddish Outreach or Amish Outreach, how would that help us reach beyond the moon?  And now we have to get a ride from someone else to even get into orbit!

Had there been competition, perhaps NASA would have focused more on Space - that is the S in NASA. 

Cooperation has its benefits, and has its costs.  Lost of competition is one of its costs.  Lost of National-pride and the resulting lost of national support is another costs.  Another possible cost is cooperation became a cover for doing less.  Therefore, one question to ask is: would EU itself become a progress-zapping entity, or not.

From where I sit, it appears to me EU is already a progress-zapping entity.  Like a living organism, a bureaucracy tends to focus on its own existance and its own growth.  EU bureaucracy will grow EU so as to expand the EU bureaucracy.  Progress of participating nations and the well-being of the citizens of the participating nations is but an after thought.

*1 Re "Muslim Outreach" - This was big news then, you can still see some links surviving to this day:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2010/07/07/nasas_muslim_outreach_106214.html (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2010/07/07/nasas_muslim_outreach_106214.html)
Excerpt: "It's not really surprising that President Obama told NASA administrator Charles Bolden that his highest priority should be "to find a way to reach out to the Muslim world and engage much more with dominantly Muslim nations to help them feel good about their historic contribution to science ... and math and engineering." It fits with so much that we already knew about the president."



Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 15, 2016, 05:28:00 pm
... a bureaucracy tends to focus on its own existance and its own growth.

... as observed and formulated in the last century by a chap that worked in British Colonial Office.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_law)

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Parkinson+law (https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Parkinson+law)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 15, 2016, 10:39:19 pm
This is a bit worrying:

Communication on Online Platforms and the Digital Single Market Opportunities and Challenges for Europe
http://www.politico.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Platforms-Communication.pdf (http://www.politico.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Platforms-Communication.pdf)

pg12
basically it's suggesting a unique ID to authenticate yourself on the internet.

Now one of the things that keeps society from rapidly failing into a Totalitarian state, is the freedom to speak out anonymously on the internet about one's Government.

If they start requiring an ID to use social media, then you can kiss goodbye to discussing any non Politically Correct topics, because just like any right wing thinking on Facebook, it'll get deleted by Zuckerberg's progressive Thought Police and your name stuck on a watch list

No surprise that the arch Federalist, Juncker is behind this potentially nightmarish idea.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on June 16, 2016, 12:01:05 am
Poll analysts reported that these 'money/work/education/commercial' considerations don't play a tipping role in the poll results.
They did their best to generalise aspects of both camps in every breakline.

They still call a statefunded librarian or an anthropologue with a fixed-job-for-life in an arts museum "highly educated" and a welder and an baker "low educated"
They still call the company "greenbuilders ecoplan sunroof" private, but they get 90% of their income from the state.

After that, it's easy to not find anything, or quote that there's a 50/50 division between "private"or between "high educated"

Literally everyone I know that is funded by the state, with a useless productivity for the economy/progress, that would make much less money in private, is PRO-EU, PRO-Obama/Hillary, and has hate and fear towards everything that tries to rationalise their unnatural position.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 16, 2016, 12:44:37 am
Had there been competition, perhaps NASA would have focused more on Space - that is the S in NASA. 
Perhaps making peace war on earth and putting food in people's bellies was regarded more important than putting a few people on Mars. Mars isn't going anywhere in the next couple of million years so there is enough time to go there.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 16, 2016, 02:48:52 am
basically it's suggesting a unique ID to authenticate yourself on the internet.

You're reaching, all they are saying is they want to take the power away from google/facebook from being the only a single log on and force websites to allow other type of universal logons less suited to data mining. Now it might be part of some nefarious scheme, but the document doesn't hint at it.

I'm more concerned about the term "hate speech".
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: G7PSK on June 16, 2016, 03:24:29 am
It would not surprise me that even if there was a majority vote to leave the EU that we don't. The PM would fall either by his own hand or by a coalition of the Labour and SNP and Conservatives along with others who want to stay, this will lead to a general election which will be won by a coalition of Labour,SNP and Liberals who will turn around and say that as they did not call for the referendum,were never behind it and against leaving the EU they are not bound by the result they will keep the UK in the EU. We will end up being ruled by Angela Merkel and her knockoff clone Nicola Sturgeon.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on June 16, 2016, 05:02:51 am
Young people are interesting. They seem to support policies that absolutely kill them in the long run.

A universal trait.

They have the openness of mind and rebellious attitude to take up 'new' causes, but not the critical thinking or experience of having lived through previous efforts.

“Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it” - and often the key elements are in the not-so-obvious detail.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 16, 2016, 05:12:30 am
a coalition of Labour,SNP and Liberals who will turn around and say that as they did not call for the referendum,were never behind it and against leaving the EU they are not bound by the result they will keep the UK in the EU.

I think you'd have a couple new terrorist organizations supported by a large part of your population the next day ... seems a bad idea.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on June 16, 2016, 05:17:13 am
I think the next parliamentary election would be more revealing.

They can't ignore that result.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Howardlong on June 16, 2016, 07:31:09 am
It would not surprise me that even if there was a majority vote to leave the EU that we don't.

That's my opinion too. Juncker has already said that if the UK vote to leave the EU will have to change, which to my mind is a key reason to vote for an exit, as remaining won't fix anything, the EU's declared steamroller to further federalism will continue like it or not.

There's a story that came out yesterday that Juncker's preparing to make a statement. Probably the worst thing he could do, like a red rag to a bull.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: G7PSK on June 16, 2016, 07:35:53 am
a coalition of Labour,SNP and Liberals who will turn around and say that as they did not call for the referendum,were never behind it and against leaving the EU they are not bound by the result they will keep the UK in the EU.

I think you'd have a couple new terrorist organizations supported by a large part of your population the next day ... seems a bad idea.
The English person dose not think that way, they would just sit down under it, grumble about it until we worked ourselves up enough to have another abortive referendum. Remember we have not had a revolution here since 1642-1651. Cromwell set up the civil service to keep us quite.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 16, 2016, 09:28:24 am
Young people are interesting. They seem to support policies that absolutely kill them in the long run.

A universal trait.

They have the openness of mind and rebellious attitude to take up 'new' causes, but not the critical thinking or experience of having lived through previous efforts.

“Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it” - and often the key elements are in the not-so-obvious detail.
Old people are not a tiny bit better either, even worse. They trust all the BS which TV says. Then go and vote with "their own" opinion.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: DenzilPenberthy on June 16, 2016, 09:44:28 am
I was at Tower Bridge this morning, whilst on the way to work, to see the flotilla of trawlers go up the Thames.  The skippers are hard working fishermen who had a democratic right to have their voices heard. 

Yeah, bravely led by Farage who in the three years he was on the European Fisheries Committee, only bothered to turn up to one out of the 42 meetings. He also failed to vote in any of the three votes to amend the Common Fisheries Policy or to introduce measures to give more quota to small scale sustainable coastal fleets e.g. exactly the sort of boats that were with him.    :palm: |O
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: NivagSwerdna on June 16, 2016, 01:35:26 pm
Yeah, bravely led by Farage
I think it was a tactical error that Farage was there.  They would have got better coverage if he was not present.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on June 16, 2016, 02:03:23 pm
Fundamentally it has turned into a question of whether you believe

Disgusting, shameful, a national disgrace.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 16, 2016, 02:35:13 pm
Makes me wonder, who's in favor of breaking up the United States of America into independent / sovereign states?
The provinces of Canada?
The states of Australia?

Hardly anyone. Because, you know, countries.

Just ask in Texas....


Or any area of California not in San Francisco or Los Angeles...  There are always proposals floating around to break up California into several states.  One day the issue may just make the ballot.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 16, 2016, 02:53:37 pm
Had there been competition, perhaps NASA would have focused more on Space - that is the S in NASA. 
Perhaps making peace war on earth and putting food in people's bellies was regarded more important than putting a few people on Mars. Mars isn't going anywhere in the next couple of million years so there is enough time to go there.

That's what the dinosaurs thought...  Richard Feynman, among many others, has called for more effort on 'locational diversity'.  We, as a civilization, are doomed if we don't spread out.  One small meteor and we're all toast.

The space program was probably the best investment the US has ever made.  Certainly better than dumping a trillion dollars into the Middle East!

I had no involvement with the program but I worked in small machine shops that did.  Tens of thousands of jobs were created in the skilled labor and technical fields.  Not to mention engineering!   Now we sit around watching reruns of Oprah.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 16, 2016, 03:51:33 pm
Fundamentally it has turned into a question of whether you believe
  • the duplicitious lying bastards that have a job
  • the duplicitious lying bastards trying to get a job

Disgusting, shameful, a national disgrace.
Amen

If you voted based on who has tole the least untruths I think the Remain campaign would just about have the edge but by a very slim margin. Mainly because when Osborne says he will run through a budget with £15b of cuts and £15b of tax hikes, however much you think that is scare-mongering, he is the chancellor and could present such a budget if he wanted. When the Vote Leave mob promise £100m a week more on the NHS you know that they do not actually have the power to make that commitment (however much they want it).

I have changed my mind in one respect which is that, up to about a month ago I would have confidently forecast a narrow majority in favour of remaining - now I'm not so sure.

I have also swung to the view that out should mean out, at the beginning of it all I though that if we voted out then we should aim for membership of the EEA - but that is too much of a loose-don't win scenario. If we go out we should aim at negotiating the necessary set of Free Trade agreements. It might even be that in 10 or 15 years we will have a vibrant economy again but it will take much more vision, dedication and commitment to the necessary change than I credit the UK government being capable of. It won't help that a Leave vote could see a vote of no confidence in Cameron and Osborne and possibly a radical change of government - but not to the Labour party because a) Corbyn is probably unelectable as PM and b) he's in the Remain campaign anyway. God help us if Boris were to become PM  :palm:

Edit: I note (http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/a_framework_for_taking_back_control_and_establishing_a_new_uk_eu_deal_after_23_june (http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/a_framework_for_taking_back_control_and_establishing_a_new_uk_eu_deal_after_23_june)) that the Leave campaign are now calling for a "considered framework" to be erected before actually invoking Article 50 - this seems to me to be an admission that the process could not possibly be complete within two years. This is not the stance they took, if I recall, at the beginning of the "debate".
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on June 16, 2016, 04:14:46 pm
Fundamentally it has turned into a question of whether you believe
  • the duplicitious lying bastards that have a job
  • the duplicitious lying bastards trying to get a job

Disgusting, shameful, a national disgrace.
Amen

If you voted based on who has tole the least untruths I think the Remain campaign would just about have the edge but by a very slim margin. Mainly because when Osborne says he will run through a budget with £15b of cuts and £15b of tax hikes, however much you think that is scare-mongering, he is the chancellor and could present such a budget if he wanted. When the Vote Leave mob promise £100m a week more on the NHS you know that they do not actually have the power to make that commitment (however much they want it).

That's pretty much my view.

Quote
I have changed my mind in one respect which is that, up to about a month ago I would have confidently forecast a narrow majority in favour of remaining - now I'm not so sure.

Fromthe start I've been presuming that brexit will win, because people are so pissed off with the current situation that they are ready to believe the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. Plus Murdoch annd the Barclay twins hate the EU (althought to be fair, the Torygraph coverage has been far more even handed that I expected).

Quote
God help us if Boris were to become PM  :palm:

In January I was thinking this could be a really bad year: Boris, Brexit, Trump.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 16, 2016, 04:25:11 pm
Fundamentally it has turned into a question of whether you believe
  • the duplicitious lying bastards that have a job
  • the duplicitious lying bastards trying to get a job

Disgusting, shameful, a national disgrace.
The biggest problem with these kind of referenda is that they will always be a vote of confidence in the government and not the subject at hand. I think you can produce a fairly accurate prediction of the outcome from how long the current parliament has been in power.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 16, 2016, 05:03:30 pm

Quote
If we go out we should aim at negotiating the necessary set of Free Trade agreements.

This is a joke , you don't want the rules from CEE, but  yes you want a   Free Trade agreements with the CEE.

This sound me as the  greeks that they want  to borrow us money but they didn't want to return us . Simply ,a chantage .

And if it will won or it will lost the refendum , the CEE will apply the Lincoln  doctrine:  Union Federal states,  Common debt and  Treasure , a federation indivisible



Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 16, 2016, 05:19:43 pm

Quote
If we go out we should aim at negotiating the necessary set of Free Trade agreements.

This is a joke , you don't want the rules from CEE, but  yes you want a   Free Trade agreements with the CEE.
No, I would like to remain in the EU, but if we leave going for individual deals under WTO rules would be impossibly complex and a Norwegian style deal would be a pyrrhic victory.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rolycat on June 16, 2016, 05:41:35 pm
The news that Jo Cox MP has been murdered has resulted in the suspension of the campaign, and there is speculation that the vote may be delayed.

One of her colleagues, Maria Eagle MP, tweeted a supposed eyewitness report that the killer shouted "Britain First", although the tweet has now been deleted. The Independent is reporting that several witnesses heard the words.

A 52-year-old man has been arrested in connection with the shooting, named by locals (but not officially) as Thomas (Tommy) Mair.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tom66 on June 16, 2016, 05:49:52 pm
I'm fairly sure that any kind of backtrack on the result would lead to:
) Widespread protests and riots
) Loss of confidence in the PM by a majority of his MPs resulting in an election
) Significant financial harm as a result of uncertainty in the future of the country

I very much doubt that the government will ignore the result, but I could see a second referendum being held.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 16, 2016, 06:15:17 pm
The news that Jo Cox MP has been murdered has resulted in the suspension of the campaign, and there is speculation that the vote may be delayed.

One of her colleagues, Maria Eagle MP, tweeted a supposed eyewitness report that the killer shouted "Britain First", although the tweet has now been deleted. The Independent is reporting that several witnesses heard the words.


Let the conspiracies begin...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 16, 2016, 06:24:40 pm
This is a joke , you don't want the rules from CEE, but  yes you want a   Free Trade agreements with the CEE.

This sound me as the  greeks that they want  to borrow us money but they didn't want to return us . Simply ,a chantage .

That's one of the stupidest parts of the EU.  Why should countries homogenize their laws just so they can trade with each other?  It makes no sense.  An academic argument could be made that homogenized laws allow for lowered costs due to less regional variances, but then the ivory tower legislators come up with stuff like RoHS and cost infinitely more money with that one stupid idea than any savings from equalized laws would bring.

And equalizing (or trying to) so many varied countries with radically different social, political, economic and financial structures is never going to work well.  Some will always be coming out ahead and some falling behind.  Countries ought to be competing with each other for the best immigrants, for business, for the best educators and workers and to deliver the most productive and efficient framework of laws to their citizens.  That has largely been lost over the last few decades due to the largesse that many EU countries have voted themselves, and it's gotten worse after the EU (see: immigrant crisis).



Quote
And if it will won or it will lost the refendum , the CEE will apply the Lincoln  doctrine:  Union Federal states,  Common debt and  Treasure , a federation indivisible

I'm not sure what you mean - are you suggesting that the EU will refuse to allow the UK to leave?  That wouldn't go over well for many reasons.  But the UK (luckily for them) maintained their currency, so leaving is a much easier prospect.  And the process for leaving is written into law, so it's not like the EU can just say "no, we refuse to let you go".  I realize it must be approved, but if the UK votes exit and Brussels technocrats refuse to honor the will of the voters, it's going to get very very ugly.

I think the EU is doomed to ultimate failure.  It will fall apart within my lifetime.  It might get pretty ugly before that happens, but ultimately, the people getting the short end of the stick will decide it's better to just leave.  When the UK leaves and experiences prosperity above and beyond the rest of the EU, that will be the trigger that causes many of the populations of other members to call for an exit as well.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 16, 2016, 06:31:13 pm

The Brexit is a tiger paper


European Union is as a tube of toothpaste: its content is very easy empty, but  for returning to put in place ,this is effort  impossible.
The UK is not going to leave the European Union, vote what the British vote, because in practice leave the European Union is that, impossible.
Of course, it is completely impossible if you belong to the Euro Zone, hence even the most lost items "Syriza" or "PODEMOS" propose the mere theoretical hypothesis abandon the euro.
But it is that disposing of its own national currency, as in the present case, it is also impossible.
Mainly, it would concur to throw a jug of cold realism on the heads of those who fantasize utopian dreamers conservative to these hours with returning to  nineteenth century with a deregulated capitalism only with breaking with Brussels bureaucrats.
They want to believe in this fairy tale forget that, regardless of their membership of the European Union, the United Kingdom will remain bound to comply to the letter all the provisions of the more than 700 international treaties will continue tying feet hands and hands to Her Majesty's Government to prevent delay clock 200 years of history.


Treaties ranging from the World Trade Organization to the International Monetary Fund or the World Bank, among others hundreds and hundreds. But it is that just be the beginning.
 The beginning of the end. Because, since they dismantled its old heavy industry during Thatcher, the UK lives basically provide services to the rest of its EU partners.
The main them, and with great difference is to lend money through his mammoth financial system. British citizens, missing more, they may want to leave the Union, but its banks, wants it or not,
they all go to shit  if they lose their privileged access to the continental market.
Although before embarking on this very patriotic journey toward certain bankruptcy the most likely would be for the City in full opted to move its corporate headquarters (and the thousands of skilled and high-paying jobs) across the English Channel.
For Not to mention the taxes that would no longer pay in the UK to move to pay them to the French, German or Spanish treasury department.
Renouncing the European market simply is not an option for them. The matter is as simple as they can't do it. Point.


But there is more, much more. It happens that the UK has the great fortune of being the first recipient of foreign direct investment among all who make up the EU country.
Specifically, 20% of the precious manna from heaven is heading to its shores every year.
Needless to say, without guaranteed unhindered access to the continental market, the owners of all that mountain of money would lack time to pack up and run with destination to Heathrow Airport.
And for what? To prevent arriving a few Romanians immigrants washing dishes and sweeping floors in London ? Well, neither for that would serve to  slam the door to Brussels.
Romanians (and Spanish) would follow to cross their borders. As by the way, the Norway and Switzerland borders  , two countries that are not part of the European Union but,
like it or not, they are obliged to accept the free movement of native foreign EU workers under penalty of see canceled their trade agreements with the Union.
If Switzerland and Norway don't have more remedy  to swallow this toad ,could you  do something very different from the UK? Of course not.
They also would swallow ,for beginning with the pride. That said, they will remain.

José García Domínguez

http://www.libremercado.com/2016-06-15/jose-garcia-dominguez-el-brexit-es-un-tigre-de-papel-79283/ (http://www.libremercado.com/2016-06-15/jose-garcia-dominguez-el-brexit-es-un-tigre-de-papel-79283/)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 16, 2016, 06:44:34 pm
And equalizing (or trying to) so many varied countries with radically different social, political, economic and financial structures is never going to work well.  Some will always be coming out ahead and some falling behind.  Countries ought to be competing with each other for the best immigrants, for business, for the best educators and workers and to deliver the most productive and efficient framework of laws to their citizens.
That won't work in today's global economy. I see you are from the US. For a moment imagine each state will have it's own language, currency and radically different regulations. How easy would it be to trade between those states and how competitive would each state be compared to China or India?
Europe used to be that patchwork of countries, languages and currencies about 2 to 3 decades ago. Sometimes you need to team up to keep up with the competition.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 16, 2016, 06:48:42 pm
Quote
I'm not sure what you mean - are you suggesting that the EU will refuse to allow the UK to leave?

No exactly , if the referendum win ,the UK  can go out. But the CEE will change the laws and will tend to become an Union of the federal State as the USA.

Quote
For a moment imagine each state will have it's own language, currency and radically different regulations

For this motive ,the CEE must be an oficial  language common for all the countries and the same times international,only at europe there are two language English and Spanish.

And for more logical must be the English that are more extended on Europe that the Spanish



Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: FrankD on June 16, 2016, 07:18:37 pm
With a Brexit most of the car industry that is left in GB will probable move to eastern Europe countries if the new gb government attempts to impose tax on them.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 16, 2016, 08:55:29 pm
God help us if Boris were to become PM  :palm:

In January I was thinking this could be a really bad year: Boris, Brexit, Trump.

Here is the upcoming future PM and P's, how the hell do they manage to look so WIERD? Why do Trump often look like a toad?Surely they are not
slightly sociopathic?:
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/07/18/01/0CF6E7E400000514-3165988-Favourite_Boris_Johnson_had_until_recently_been_seen_as_a_favour-a-29_1437178865029.jpg)(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTPBhRtaM_iVet4fcQeK9PGVsyMnfoWG-fWxS58XSUs7-wDAFT2)(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT0cMTi5idQQySp3fxtziEN9vK-xdB6p6-bFO30d8n1INi9ejml)(http://www.el-nacional.com/sociedad/Vladimir-Putin_NACIMA20151118_0087_19.jpg)(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRCD6Eh7fDWtu6cyYGOX5wMS_6bUBeSFqN8Dd7t-B78gpdWQtlU)(http://leftfootforward.org/images/2014/05/Nigel-Farage-mad-eyesj.jpg)(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRLT0vBhL3VtrFb7wHglnkFR3uTEUGH6K77PbtFeMaIAWtfvMEg)(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRxp7qLxzeoeSRTBZ65XB_oe_T2orSP2xkxi8LA5P5ORTLxoTCwlQ)(http://epn.tv/wp-post-thumbnail/2013/08/e6StX8.jpg)(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ4r8XC4PVny1-mgF_e7B0NX-iKd6colVnBdjqW5UIoquRNUmVi)(http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/article30305795.ece/ALTERNATES/h342/POLL%20Main%2001_5.jpg)
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/6a1120eb6c2ede5abcab2984b525cc4e752f5f98/1253_98_2170_1302/master/2170.jpg?w=620&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=c2d1c541c0863d2cde47da0abcd3fc4a)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 16, 2016, 09:09:15 pm
Here is the upcoming future PM and P's, how the hell do they manage to look so WIERD? Why do Trump often look like a toad?Surely they are not
slightly sociopathic?:
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/07/18/01/0CF6E7E400000514-3165988-Favourite_Boris_Johnson_had_until_recently_been_seen_as_a_favour-a-29_1437178865029.jpg)(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTPBhRtaM_iVet4fcQeK9PGVsyMnfoWG-fWxS58XSUs7-wDAFT2)(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT0cMTi5idQQySp3fxtziEN9vK-xdB6p6-bFO30d8n1INi9ejml)(http://www.el-nacional.com/sociedad/Vladimir-Putin_NACIMA20151118_0087_19.jpg)(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRCD6Eh7fDWtu6cyYGOX5wMS_6bUBeSFqN8Dd7t-B78gpdWQtlU)(http://leftfootforward.org/images/2014/05/Nigel-Farage-mad-eyesj.jpg)(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRLT0vBhL3VtrFb7wHglnkFR3uTEUGH6K77PbtFeMaIAWtfvMEg)(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRxp7qLxzeoeSRTBZ65XB_oe_T2orSP2xkxi8LA5P5ORTLxoTCwlQ)(http://epn.tv/wp-post-thumbnail/2013/08/e6StX8.jpg)(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ4r8XC4PVny1-mgF_e7B0NX-iKd6colVnBdjqW5UIoquRNUmVi)(http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/incoming/article30305795.ece/ALTERNATES/h342/POLL%20Main%2001_5.jpg)
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/6a1120eb6c2ede5abcab2984b525cc4e752f5f98/1253_98_2170_1302/master/2170.jpg?w=620&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=c2d1c541c0863d2cde47da0abcd3fc4a)

The Swedish version of critical thinking I presume.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 16, 2016, 09:17:17 pm
Really? :o  and american critical thinking is to actually vote for Trump?

Former Swedish PM giant toddler egg shaped head:
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTiA-hfKRzkRPWgykT5tqsnNRRNPbwp6S2ZWu5aAVHPJc8lb5tr)
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT6b8QgVEW1Be_xVTgRMCX9K6En2cVaJSYrVcozfJsZBwf5ZbLxxA)

Today's PM very similar a certain fish:
(http://gfx.bloggar.aftonbladet-cdn.se/wp-content/blogs.dir/428/files/2015/04/stefan7.jpg)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 16, 2016, 09:27:26 pm
And equalizing (or trying to) so many varied countries with radically different social, political, economic and financial structures is never going to work well.  Some will always be coming out ahead and some falling behind.  Countries ought to be competing with each other for the best immigrants, for business, for the best educators and workers and to deliver the most productive and efficient framework of laws to their citizens.
That won't work in today's global economy. I see you are from the US. For a moment imagine each state will have it's own language, currency and radically different regulations. How easy would it be to trade between those states and how competitive would each state be compared to China or India?
Europe used to be that patchwork of countries, languages and currencies about 2 to 3 decades ago. Sometimes you need to team up to keep up with the competition.

Instead, the US has the Commerce Clause which allows the Feds to impose their rules on the States in the name of Commerce.  Even when there is no apparent commerce component to the law.  Everything affects interstate commerce and that's how it is.

At various times in our history, it has been illegal for individuals to grow food for personal consumption because it affects farm prices, hence Interstate Commerce.  Growers wouldn't be buyers...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 16, 2016, 09:30:53 pm
The news that Jo Cox MP has been murdered

Jo Cox's first speech in parliament was about the benefits of immigration and integration.

I'm not surprised someone finally snapped, Labour has been talking down to the working class for a decade.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 16, 2016, 09:38:47 pm
Relly? :o  and american critical thinking is to actually vote for Trump?

He is a far better choice than the alternative.  First of all, he's a proven disrupter.  The status quo won't survive.  That's not entirely a bad thing.  Many foreign leaders have already made their opinions known so we know where to cut off funding.  I don't think we'll be hanging around in the Middle East and, with luck and planning, maybe we'll be out of eastern Europe before the fireworks start.

There will probably be some other disruptions in foreign relations and I'm all for that!

The alternative brings with her a pending storm.  Little Chelsea wants to be President just like her mommy and daddy.  We really don't do dynasties around here and getting this stopped in its tracks is a good idea.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 16, 2016, 09:44:48 pm
Really? :o  and american critical thinking is to actually vote for Trump?

There are several reasons why a rationale American citizen would prefer Trump over Hillary but this belong to a different topic.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on June 16, 2016, 09:47:31 pm
The news that Jo Cox MP has been murdered

Jo Cox's first speech in parliament was about the benefits of immigration and integration.

I'm not surprised someone finally snapped, Labour has been talking down to the working class for a decade.

So she had been specifically targeted in Britain First and similar publications then?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 16, 2016, 09:54:52 pm
Relly? :o  and american critical thinking is to actually vote for Trump?
He is a far better choice than the alternative.  First of all, he's a proven disrupter.  The status quo won't survive.  That's not entirely a bad thing.  Many foreign leaders have already made their opinions known so we know where to cut off funding.
I don't think so. When Trump becomes president he'll be like a spoiled kid in kindergarten throwing around mud. Nobody will be interested in what he says or does! Remember many laws and actions will need political support in the senate. Look at other activistic (usually right-wing) politicians who get elected. They achieve nothing because they are egocentric and have no clue about how the political system works. If Trump thinks he can run a country like his company he is in for a very nasty surprise.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Rick Law on June 16, 2016, 10:08:45 pm
Really? :o  and american critical thinking is to actually vote for Trump?
...
...

I am sure some critical thinkers may not vote for him, but I am also sure that anyone who thinks at all would certainly be considering what Trump is offering with interest.  Trump is promoting self-preservation verses the self-destruction we have been experiencing for the past few years.  I have been in the USofA for 40 years now, I have not seen our country is such sad shape today - Carter years included.

One may argue with Trump's methods, but self-preservation is only ingored by non-thinkers.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 16, 2016, 10:16:12 pm
Vote against Clinton is easy: look at what votting 50 years for career politians have done for the average person.

Unfortunately, voting for Trump isn't as easy.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 16, 2016, 10:20:34 pm
So she had been specifically targeted in Britain First and similar publications then?

I've no idea, Britain First isn't exactly Combat 18, and most Right wing groups have enough sense to avoid trouble simply because of how the Right wing is treated in the UK.

Look at any immigration protest and you'll find a Right wing group being kettled by the Police while UAF thugs are free to throw bricks, this then gets reported as a Right wing riot  :-//
The media has two faces on this, you can't use the word "muslim" in a Daily Mail comment because they censor all the words that relate to the issue. They pretend to have a sympathetic agenda, but all they actually publish are click bait articles designed to manipulate their readers into thinking they are on the same side.

It is a sign of the break down of Democracy, immigration has been the number one concern for years, yet both parties bizarrely continue to present this as some kind of financial issue.

The same thing happened in Germany when Reker was stabbed. Just stop for a second and think about this, politicians are being physically attacked simply because they'd rather push their own agenda than listen to the working class. That's how big the gap is between what people think and what the media is telling them to think.
Hence Brexit, nobody has a clue about the financial implications, this is all just a knee jerk reaction to Merkel losing the plot and destroying Germany.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 16, 2016, 10:30:01 pm
One may argue with Trump's methods, but self-preservation is only ingored by non-thinkers.

Self preservation, pragmatism before ideology, avoiding identity politics, facing reality as is without a dense smoke screen of political correctness, and avoiding a blind adherence to the status quo.

The last two presidents here were no good.  From the wars in the middle east (over estimating benefit/cost), the rise of ISIS ('a JV team') doubling our national debt (each on his own), restricting the healthcare insurance market (try to change carrier mid year), more people on food stamps, decline in good jobs, terror attacks, and rampant illegal immigration.

A rational American has many reasons not voting for more-of-the-same.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Rick Law on June 16, 2016, 11:16:17 pm
...
...
The media has two faces on this, you can't use the word "muslim" in a Daily Mail comment because they censor all the words that relate to the issue. They pretend to have a sympathetic agenda, but all they actually publish are click bait articles designed to manipulate their readers into thinking they are on the same side.
...
...
Hence Brexit, nobody has a clue about the financial implications, this is all just a knee jerk reaction to Merkel losing the plot and destroying Germany.

And now the funniest part.  Those protesting in the UK against Muslim immigration (or Trump people in the USA), they are called NAZIS and Fascists by the Press.

But, a brief review of NAZI history will show that the largest group of non-Aryans in the SS were the Muslims (13th Walfen SS division and 21st Walfen SS division).  Some were granted Honorary Aryan status.   Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Amin al-Husseini recruited many more for the SS, so many that even Hitler met personally with Amin al-Husseini.

They being the Press, I know they can write but I am not at all sure they can read if they missed such significant historical fact.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 17, 2016, 12:05:52 am
That won't work in today's global economy. I see you are from the US. For a moment imagine each state will have it's own language, currency and radically different regulations. How easy would it be to trade between those states and how competitive would each state be compared to China or India?
Europe used to be that patchwork of countries, languages and currencies about 2 to 3 decades ago. Sometimes you need to team up to keep up with the competition.

But it does work.  China does huge quantities of business with Britain and the rest of the EU and they have radically different laws, timezones, languages, cultures and social/economic structures.  And there is no common EU language, so being part of the EU doesn't do anything about the language differences.  Not everyone in the EU uses the same currency, but currency differences are just about a non-issue these days.  I can change the currency on sites like eBay to whatever I want, and I can buy product in any country with members selling on the site.  I am totally abstracted from the mechanisms of currency trading on the back end. 

Most of the EU countries are economically and socially relatively similar - well, compared to somewhere like Chile or Malaysia or Nigeria anyway.  The commonality of laws offers little benefit, and I would argue (strongly) that whatever value is gained is more than lost when the technocrats come up with stupid bullshit like RoHS.

Trade agreements and currency/legal unions are different and unrelated things.  There's no need to harmonize laws just to engage in trade.  And, while I am sure it's an unpopular view among the most lefty of readers, countries ought to be acting in the best interests of their citizens, not in the best interests of society around the world.  If Britain is giving more than it's getting, they do their citizens a disservice by staying in.  And if Britain has more "power" (economically, socially, financially) than someone else, they should be leveraging that to get the best deal possible for British people. 

I would say the EU has done a pretty piss-poor job of handling the small number of crises that have been dealt it so far - and it hasn't really solved much of anything.  I don't think there's any evidence that the member countries would be worse off if they'd stayed separate.  It's all going to end in tears, as my mom used to say.  Unions like the EU will never last because it's trying to meld things which are just too different.

It should just be a trade union and nothing more.  That's all it needs to be. 
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 17, 2016, 01:34:54 am
If we get a Sunni muslim majority in western Europe I think they'll be able to get together in one nation without too many problems.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 17, 2016, 09:47:59 am
My biggest problem with this kind of polls (and we had the same problems here in holland with the oekrain poll) is that people are mis- or mal- informed.
I am not saying that you should stay or leave but if you make a decision at least you would like to know all the facts before you make such a decision.
Well yesterdays newspaper states that there is a huge misconception on what people in the UK think and the reality.
Translation:
Misconceptions of the british population about the EU
Left column: What the british think                                 Right colum: reality

   Percentage of EU immigrants dat are part of the british population
              15%                                                                        5%

  Percentage of the britisch childsupport being paid to children in the EU
                8%                                                                      0,3%

  Percentage of the budget spent on the EU civil service (bureaucracy if you like)
               27%                                                                     6%

  Participation (share) of the EU in the total investments in Great Brittain
               30%                                                                     48%

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 17, 2016, 10:23:36 am
Misconceptions of the british population about the EU
Left column: What the british think                                 Right colum: reality

   Percentage of EU immigrants dat are part of the british population
              15%                                                                        5%

  Percentage of the britisch childsupport being paid to children in the EU
                8%                                                                      0,3%

  Percentage of the budget spent on the EU civil service (bureaucracy if you like)
               27%                                                                     6%

  Participation (share) of the EU in the total investments in Great Brittain
               30%                                                                     48%
This is, of course, the problem - there is always a gulf between reality and perception and there are always fears which politicians can use for leverage. If you are white and of a certain background and political leaning living in one of our larger cities you are much more likely to perceive that it is "invaded by foreigners" than welcome the fact of living in a vibrant multi-ethnic society. You are also likely to assume everyone that you see with a dark face is an immigrant whereas the reality most will have been born here, to parents who were born here.

I don't normally give Polly Toynbee much time but I think that she hit the right note in this article The mood is is ugly, and an MP is dead (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/16/mood-ugly-mp-dead-jo-cox). The Leave campaign is playing the race card and it is not pleasant.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on June 17, 2016, 11:06:43 am
I don't normally give Polly Toynbee much time but I think that she hit the right note in this article The mood is is ugly, and an MP is dead (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/16/mood-ugly-mp-dead-jo-cox). The Leave campaign is playing the race card and it is not pleasant.

I'll give her time - but I don't always agree with her. In this case we both think she is right :(

This whole febrile atmosphere was also descibed as Britain is in the midst of a working-class revolt  (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/17/britain-working-class-revolt-eu-referendum) . Something similar is happening in the US.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on June 17, 2016, 11:35:29 am
I don't normally give Polly Toynbee much time but I think that she hit the right note in this article The mood is is ugly, and an MP is dead (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/16/mood-ugly-mp-dead-jo-cox). The Leave campaign is playing the race card and it is not pleasant.

I'll give her time - but I don't always agree with her. In this case we both think she is right :(

This whole febrile atmosphere was also descibed as Britain is in the midst of a working-class revolt  (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/17/britain-working-class-revolt-eu-referendum) . Something similar is happening in the US.

The sad thing is they seem to want to 'revolt' against every poor mug (preferably smaller than them) except the big corporation bosses who put them where they are and invited the immigrants.  And they obediently support the bosses' demands to weaken trade unions.  It's a strange world!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 17, 2016, 12:14:07 pm
Enough with the migration.

This is what it should be about.

https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FOfficialSpectator%2Fvideos%2F133%E2%80%8B3330490029884%2F&show_text=0&width=560 (https://www.facebook.com/plugins/video.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FOfficialSpectator%2Fvideos%2F133%E2%80%8B3330490029884%2F&show_text=0&width=560)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Howardlong on June 17, 2016, 01:42:13 pm
The Leave campaign is playing the race card and it is not pleasant.

Errrr, and what race card would that be exactly? From where I'm sitting, remain supporters have been repeatedly accusing a very large proportion of the electorate of being racist just because they have a different opinion to them on whether the UK should be in or out of the EU. It cheapens what racism is, and degrades the gravity of instances of real racism. Accusing someone you don't agree with by calling them a racist is like using the old loaded question "when did you stop beating your wife?", it's a lazy way to shut people up because you don't want to enter into reasoned debate.

Just to be clear, there is a very big difference between saying I'd rather not be in the EU and being a racist.

Edit: I agree yesterday's Farage poster is unacceptable, but he is not the Leave campaign on his own. I can also come up with plenty of other nonsense on both sides too.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 17, 2016, 01:54:47 pm
Quote
what race card would that be exactly?

It is racist to enforce the laws of the nation;
It is racist to hold elected officials to the laws of the nation;
It is racist to want to treat everyone equally;
It is racist to want to just everyone on their own characters.
...

If MLK were a live today and said what he said about having  a dream, he would be labeled a racist too:

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

We are a deeply racist country not because of the people but because of the policies our politicians have put in place that explicitly and forcibly judge each of us on the color of our skins, or our body parts for that matter.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 17, 2016, 02:14:36 pm
The Leave campaign is playing the race card and it is not pleasant.

Errrr, and what race card would that be exactly
Farrage's poster was completely unacceptable, I'm glad you agree.

Playing on fears of mass immigration then, but claiming that we are going to be overrun by unskilled migrants (with particular emphasis on countries like Turkey) who only want to come here to live on benefits is a racist argument.

Claims based around Brits pushed out of houses, schools, the NHS etc are all fundamentally playing to a racist sympathy.

Not to mention Boris's comments re Obama as a method of undermining his message.





Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 17, 2016, 02:17:50 pm
Quote
what race card would that be exactly?

It is racist to enforce the laws of the nation;
It is racist to hold elected officials to the laws of the nation;
It is racist to want to treat everyone equally;
It is racist to want to just everyone on their own characters.
...

If MLK were a live today and said what he said about having  a dream, he would be labeled a racist too:

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

We are a deeply racist country not because of the people but because of the policies our politicians have put in place that explicitly and forcibly judge each of us on the color of our skins, or our body parts for that matter.

And as usually it boils down to a population actually voting in these politicians, please put your self in front  of a mirror, watch your personal fascism, arrogance, ignorance and all other narcissistic characters you consist of, now try to improve your self, it wont be easy but as a start dont vote for the Mussolini impersonator toad, the communist or the dynasty! Use rime and reason and rational critical thinking that exclude said "characters".
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 17, 2016, 02:25:06 pm
The Leave campaign is playing the race card and it is not pleasant.

Errrr, and what race card would that be exactly? From where I'm sitting, remain supporters have been repeatedly accusing a very large proportion of the electorate of being racist just because they have a different opinion to them on whether the UK should be in or out of the EU. It cheapens what racism is, and degrades the gravity of instances of real racism. Accusing someone you don't agree with by calling them a racist is like using the old loaded question "when did you stop beating your wife?", it's a lazy way to shut people up because you don't want to enter into reasoned debate.

Just to be clear, there is a very big difference between saying I'd rather not be in the EU and being a racist.

Edit: I agree yesterday's Farage poster is unacceptable, but he is not the Leave campaign on his own. I can also come up with plenty of other nonsense on both sides too.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/suspected-killer-of-british-lawmaker-jo-cox-ties-neo-nazi-ties-group-says/2016/06/17/2067ea0a-33ef-11e6-ab9d-1da2b0f24f93_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/suspected-killer-of-british-lawmaker-jo-cox-ties-neo-nazi-ties-group-says/2016/06/17/2067ea0a-33ef-11e6-ab9d-1da2b0f24f93_story.html)

The swedish hope-that-Britton leaves party has it roots in Natzi culture!

As far as im concerned  fascism , communism, natzism is all the same brown brain shit, same smell just slightly different color!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Howardlong on June 17, 2016, 02:29:00 pm
The Leave campaign is playing the race card and it is not pleasant.

Errrr, and what race card would that be exactly? From where I'm sitting, remain supporters have been repeatedly accusing a very large proportion of the electorate of being racist just because they have a different opinion to them on whether the UK should be in or out of the EU. It cheapens what racism is, and degrades the gravity of instances of real racism. Accusing someone you don't agree with by calling them a racist is like using the old loaded question "when did you stop beating your wife?", it's a lazy way to shut people up because you don't want to enter into reasoned debate.

Just to be clear, there is a very big difference between saying I'd rather not be in the EU and being a racist.

Edit: I agree yesterday's Farage poster is unacceptable, but he is not the Leave campaign on his own. I can also come up with plenty of other nonsense on both sides too.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/suspected-killer-of-british-lawmaker-jo-cox-ties-neo-nazi-ties-group-says/2016/06/17/2067ea0a-33ef-11e6-ab9d-1da2b0f24f93_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/suspected-killer-of-british-lawmaker-jo-cox-ties-neo-nazi-ties-group-says/2016/06/17/2067ea0a-33ef-11e6-ab9d-1da2b0f24f93_story.html)

The swedish hope-that-Britton leaves party has it roots in Natzi culture!

As far as im concerned  fascism , communism, natzism is all the same brown brain shit, same smell just slightly different color!

The perp had known mental problems. It is exceptionally lazy and unhelpful to assume that all those who vote in a certain way in this referendum share the same deranged ideology.

In addition, there is as yet no official connection drawn between the acts of this nutter and the Brexit campaigns, and much as it is easy to draw conclusions from hearsay, I suggest that it should be treated as that.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 17, 2016, 02:50:07 pm


The perp had known mental problems. It is exceptionally lazy and unhelpful to assume that all those who vote in a certain way in this referendum share the same deranged ideology.

In addition, there is as yet no official connection drawn between the acts of this nutter and the Brexit campaigns, and much as it is easy to draw conclusions from hearsay, I suggest that it should be treated as that.

Washington post is a well respected paper, a US of A paper mind you! Try to fade him away as a  basic UK nutter is extremely lame!
Believe in media ,Believe in Trump vote for Trump and Putin it will benefit UK, the pound will drop Putins oligarchs will buy UK proprieties
and migrate bringing all the looted and washed money along! Be happy! Hail the toad!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on June 17, 2016, 03:04:27 pm
We really don't do dynasties around here and getting this stopped in its tracks is a good idea.

Actually you do - far more than Europe.

Start with Bush Snr, then Jnr, and then Jeb tried to make it number 3.

Continue with the Kennedys; Jack/John was number 1, and Robert would probably have been number 2 if he hadn't been murdered.

Were there any earlier ones?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jaxbird on June 17, 2016, 03:05:22 pm
EU was a mistake, originally sold as promoting growth and making trade withing Europe easier and cheaper.

Today EU is basically some expensive marxist experiment trying to gain control of all member countries/states with a leadership of people never elected by anyone in the contributing countries.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Howardlong on June 17, 2016, 03:18:15 pm
The Leave campaign is playing the race card and it is not pleasant.

Errrr, and what race card would that be exactly
Farrage's poster was completely unacceptable, I'm glad you agree.

Playing on fears of mass immigration then, but claiming that we are going to be overrun by unskilled migrants (with particular emphasis on countries like Turkey) who only want to come here to live on benefits is a racist argument.

No, that is a concern of immigration. Concern about immigration != racism.

The emphasis on Turkey is that (a) Cameron (for Remain) told the electorate not to worry their pretty heads about it and (b) while they concurrently suggested secretly that actually it might be alright to "send a nice message" to Turkey in the form of a degree of relaxation to the immigration from that country prior to acceptance to the EU.

Quote
Claims based around Brits pushed out of houses, schools, the NHS etc are all fundamentally playing to a racist sympathy.

Even the Remain camp are stating that house prices will ease as a result of a Brexit. To many people that would be welcome, certainly where I live, where you need to be earning £150k+ just to buy a £500,000 studio apartment. There is nothing racist in that.

There is nothing racist in stating that schools are under pressure from children where English is not their first language.

There is nothing racist in stating that the NHS is under pressure from health tourism because the NHS is so freely available to all.

All of those three things you mention are only perceived to be racist because individuals choose to manipulate it to be so for their own agenda. It is not racist to point out that these things happen.

What are we to do? Just not mention anything at all in case someone from the PC brigade might call you a racist?

Again, please consider that branding everything you don't like as simply racist isn't just cheap, it really dilutes the real racist issues that exist in society.

Quote

Not to mention Boris's comments re Obama as a method of undermining his message.

The Boris's Obama quote was just silly and cringeworthy, he should've know better in his position.

To me EU immigration isn't even in my decision. Fundamentally I am fine with the single market and the freedom of movement (at least I was when the Union was comprised of reasonably compatible states in terms of GDP). What I am not fine about is the expansion of the EU into incompatible economies, increased fiscal parity, completely open borders, and combined defence. All of those things are already happening and they are stated aims of the EU as a whole, and the EU is not going to change without a bombshell. You either accept that the EU will continue that steamroller that you have no way of stopping, or you get out, and make that bombshell.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 17, 2016, 03:18:56 pm
"Today EU is basically some expensive marxist experiment trying to gain control of all member countries/states ..."

Agreed. Had it stayed on its original mission of driving economic growth, rather than straying onto a pan-european political super government, it would have been so much more helpful.

I think people are under estimating the risk of a brexit here. If that does materialize, the Cameron government iss likeely to be thrown out as well. With the rise of the right wing popularnist governments across Europe, the swing can go to the other extreme and may produce another Hitler.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 17, 2016, 03:35:18 pm
Washington post is a well respected paper, a US of A paper mind you!

Not anymore. It's now owned by Bezos and serves his political agenda.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jaxbird on June 17, 2016, 03:36:23 pm
Agreed. Had it stayed on its original mission of driving economic growth, rather than straying onto a pan-european political super government, it would have been so much more helpful.

I think people are under estimating the risk of a brexit here. If that does materialize, the Cameron government iss likeely to be thrown out as well. With the rise of the right wing popularnist governments across Europe, the swing can go to the other extreme and may produce another Hitler.

Yeah, that was what everyone voting for EU were originally told the vote to join was all about, it would be purely to remove trade barriers and exchange rates within Europe. No problems there.

I hope Brexit does happen and causes a domino effect, with more and more counties deciding to leave. But most of EU's political elites are doing their best to prevent anyone from having the opportunity to vote whether they want EU or not.



Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 17, 2016, 03:40:41 pm
I hope for a brexit as well. It iss good for the Brits and all Europeans in thee long run.

Some short term pains for sure
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Gyro on June 17, 2016, 03:52:48 pm
Damn, less than a week to go and after watching everything and following this thread, my biggest voting influence still seems to come down to worry about what might happen if we leave and it all switches to sh*t (the stay campaign strategy is obviously effective) :palm:

Anxiety doesn't seem like a good basis for a rational decision.

This international discussion is still the nearest thing to a good natured balanced argument I've see so far though  :-+

Sorry, carry on...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 17, 2016, 04:04:42 pm
Damn, less than a week to go and after watching everything and following this thread, my biggest voting influence still seems to come down to worry about what might happen if we leave and it all switches to sh*t (the stay campaign strategy is obviously effective) :palm:
I think it is safe to say nobody (else) will die whether the UK stays in the EU or not. Besides that I'm pretty sure the EU got the message whether the UK stays in the EU or not so mission accomplished. The Netherlands will be sad to see the UK go though because the NL and the UK both have similar wishes for how the EU should be organised.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: gnavigator1007 on June 17, 2016, 04:17:21 pm
I think it is safe to say nobody (else) will die whether the UK stays in the EU or not.
Alright!  Best news ever.  And here we were worrying what to do with tools/toys lol
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on June 17, 2016, 04:31:40 pm
Rule of thumb for this topic: ignore anybody that chooses not to display a flag by their moniker.

Hardly foolproof, but it weeds out those those that don't have the courage(?) to indicate how involved/committed they are to the subject.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: daqq on June 17, 2016, 04:40:25 pm
Quote
Claims based around Brits pushed out of houses, schools, the NHS etc are all fundamentally playing to a racist sympathy.
Are said claims false? Unsubstantiated?

edit: It's an honest question, I'm not in GB, as such all I have is hearsay and rumor.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 17, 2016, 04:48:36 pm
Facts, particularly unhelpful facts, don't matter.

They are not helpful to a particular narrative some people are selling so those facts are wrong.

Forr examples, I live in a 3rd world country where a non union workers is defined by law as a union worker, a majority iss defined by law as minority, two colored minorities are defined as whites,  men can be defined as women and vice versa......

Welcome to politics.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 17, 2016, 04:55:02 pm
We've had a housing shortage for years.

Large numbers of extra people coming into the country - a medium sized city's worth every year for the past decade by official figures - really isn't helping and is continuing to push property prices and rents up.

This has been acknowledged by the remain camp when they said that property prices would fall if we voted to leave.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: FrankD on June 17, 2016, 04:59:25 pm
Quote
Claims based around Brits pushed out of houses, schools, the NHS etc are all fundamentally playing to a racist sympathy.
Are said claims false? Unsubstantiated?

edit: It's an honest question, I'm not in GB, as such all I have is hearsay and rumor.

Untrue and unsubstantiated. GB hardly had to deal with refugies yet. But if they have to by a non brexit I'm sure that their 19th century invention of the 'concentration camp' will come in handy.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 17, 2016, 05:00:04 pm
Quote
Claims based around Brits pushed out of houses, schools, the NHS etc are all fundamentally playing to a racist sympathy.
Are said claims false? Unsubstantiated?
edit: It's an honest question, I'm not in GB, as such all I have is hearsay and rumor.
You can make statistics say anything you want. Fun fact: over a third of the Surinamese people live in the Netherlands (Suriname is a country in the north of South America). That sounds like a lot until you know there are less than a million Surinamese people in total.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Howardlong on June 17, 2016, 05:23:31 pm
Quote
Claims based around Brits pushed out of houses, schools, the NHS etc are all fundamentally playing to a racist sympathy.
Are said claims false? Unsubstantiated?

edit: It's an honest question, I'm not in GB, as such all I have is hearsay and rumor.

In social housing there is evidence that suggests that immigrants get ahead of local people, but that is as much because of their circumstances as anything else, in that immigrants are more likely to bring up larger families than the indigenous, and those larger families tend to be from non-EU immigrants. A lot of the scare stories are anecdotal though.

This, along with general housing stock isn't an EU immigration thing though, it's more down to the massive foreign speculative investment of the top 0.1% than it is to do with the EU. Leaving the EU won't do much to help the lack of housing, although it will cool the already hugely overheated general housing market.

Schools, particularly in some ethnic hot spots suffer from non English speakers, although again this isn't so much an EU related problem, it tends to be much more to do with the "ghettoisation" (sorry, couldn't think of a better word) of some communities. While EU immigrants tend to make their way throughout the country, and generally integrate well, the same isn't the case for some communities not from the EU, although I am generalising here.

Regarding the NHS, well from my own experience there is a lot of advantage taken of it, but again this is not so much the EU, it is predominantly non-EU immigrants where their healthcare systems, by their own admission, aren't a patch on the NHS. I am aware of neighbours who bring their relatives into the UK for extended periods (think: 6 to 12 months) so they can have free health care. I also worked with a guy who did a similar thing, I made my views very clear on that one. By their very nature, these longer term illnesses tend to be very expensive, it's not like a broken leg or a couple of stitches. I honestly don't think the NHS has any clue how much is drained from their coffers, and our taxes, by health tourism, although they seem to think it's peanuts. My evidence, if extrapolated, suggests it's a lot more.

So that is one reason why the immigration thing doesn't really have any sway in my decision, because the problems and costs are not, in my experiences, generally from EU immigrants.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 17, 2016, 05:29:14 pm
..., my biggest voting influence still seems to come down to worry about what might happen if we leave a...

I don't think it's wrong. Assessing what may happen as an effect of your decision is a valid data point - posititve and negative (side)effects.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Howardlong on June 17, 2016, 05:34:51 pm
Quote
Claims based around Brits pushed out of houses, schools, the NHS etc are all fundamentally playing to a racist sympathy.
Are said claims false? Unsubstantiated?

edit: It's an honest question, I'm not in GB, as such all I have is hearsay and rumor.

Untrue and unsubstantiated. GB hardly had to deal with refugies yet. But if they have to by a non brexit I'm sure that their 19th century invention of the 'concentration camp' will come in handy.

I don't think that's an informed response in my experience. I'll tell you what, I'll take you to the East End, that might open your eyes. Take a look in the schools in Bethnal Green and Wapping, the council estates in Stepney, the wards in the Royal London Hospital in Whitechapel (or any other London hospital). Then you might have a very different view. But this is mostly not due to EU immigration.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: XynxNet on June 17, 2016, 06:12:07 pm
What's the problem with Brexit?

If the british majority doesn't share the goals an values of the eu any longer, brexit is a good thing.
No hard feelings required. It is good thing, that voting about such matters is possible.

As with every democratic decision one hopes that the voter makes an informed vote.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Rick Law on June 17, 2016, 06:14:02 pm
Misconceptions of the british population about the EU
Left column: What the british think                                 Right colum: reality

   Percentage of EU immigrants dat are part of the british population
              15%                                                                        5%

  Percentage of the britisch childsupport being paid to children in the EU
                8%                                                                      0,3%

  Percentage of the budget spent on the EU civil service (bureaucracy if you like)
               27%                                                                     6%

  Participation (share) of the EU in the total investments in Great Brittain
               30%                                                                     48%
This is, of course, the problem - there is always a gulf between reality and perception and there are always fears which politicians can use for leverage. If you are white and of a certain background and political leaning living in one of our larger cities you are much more likely to perceive that it is "invaded by foreigners" than welcome the fact of living in a vibrant multi-ethnic society. You are also likely to assume everyone that you see with a dark face is an immigrant whereas the reality most will have been born here, to parents who were born here.

I don't normally give Polly Toynbee much time but I think that she hit the right note in this article The mood is is ugly, and an MP is dead (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/16/mood-ugly-mp-dead-jo-cox). The Leave campaign is playing the race card and it is not pleasant.

In your "Participation (share) of the EU in the total investments in Great Brittain" numbers, that does not necessarily relates to immigration.  Foreign Investment and immigration are very different.

Case and point: In 1980's to early 2000's, VW was fairly large in China and for a number of years VW was the number one car manufacturer in China.  China had a huge German investment yet China hardly had any German immigrants.  Flow of money and flow of people does not necessarily relate to each other.

For "childsupport being paid to children in the EU", a 0.3% number, if it is indeed that low, saids the UK government is not doing its job.  In a sane world, social services and related costs due to immigration should be zero.  The host country should choose immigrant that benefits the nation and the citizens rather than costs the nation.  Otherwise, it is robbing its own citizen to benefit others.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: FrankD on June 17, 2016, 06:23:05 pm
That's why I said refugees.

It's the same over here. The larger cities have a far higher non ethnic population than the more rural areas of the country.
And over half of them is due to our colonial heritage. (Not a history to be proud of.)

It's the people in the rural area's are the ones that react in ways that would have made them collaborators in the last world war.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 17, 2016, 07:20:16 pm
In your "Participation (share) of the EU in the total investments in Great Brittain" numbers, that does not necessarily relates to immigration.  Foreign Investment and immigration are very different.
I never said it had anything to do with immigration, it just simply states the newspaper facts that in general , british people have wrong numbers in their heads and don't have the correct figures, so their judgment is biased to begin with.
If they want to leave fine with me, I am not stopping you but shouldn't everyone have the right figures and the correct facts to make a good decision ?

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 17, 2016, 07:25:15 pm
Quote
In your "Participation (share) of the EU in the total investments in Great Brittain" numbers, that does not necessarily relates to immigration.  Foreign Investment and immigration are very different.

I had a long conversation with someone yesterday on this very topic. He's sense is that the european (continent) investments in London (we were talking mostly about the financial services industry) is due to what the city has to offer, not because UK/London being part of the EU. As such, he believes that the investments will likely continue, without substantial declines as others have suggested.

I tend to agree with that assessment.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 17, 2016, 07:32:02 pm
It's the people in the rural area's are the ones that react in ways that would have made them collaborators in the last world war.
Pfffff so tired of ww2 brought up over and over again and then in ways that are so stupid and easy to contradict.
Collaborators were everywhere in ww2, actually it was everyone that did nothing, doing nothing is also collaborating and you can not blame them after the events in may 40 and following actions the germans took if someone resisted.
The resistance were a few hundred people and after the war it was suddenly a few thousands of people, you go figure.

Back to the item you brought up, I saw a lot of little rural communities helping and supporting more immigrants than in the big cities, and the facts are that the succes ratio for support and integration are higher when immigrants are accepted in small communities instead of being "faceless anonymous humans" in the big city. The problems started when the political peanutbrains wanted to put large centres in small communities. Everyone with a small brain in their heads understand that it is not wise to put 1500 immigrants in a village of 1000 people. Next problem is that the schools did not receive the proper funding to help integrate the immigrant children in their classes. There were examples that 20 immigrant children joined a class of 15 exisiting children, what are they thinking? Lets be real, the EU was never prepared for this invasion and everyone did their best but it should have been contained from day one. Noone knew what to do and I still don't see a correct solution. The biggest problem I see are not the real war immigrants, we are obliged to help them just as we want to be helped if we ever came in such a situation. Besides most want to go back anyway when there is peace, if there is ever going to be peace that is. But the economic immigrants, mostly young men, fortuneseekers, they should be brought back day 2 after identification, but their country does not want to co-operate so they can not be sent back. I can not believe that and they are the real problem for the EU, IMO.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 17, 2016, 07:32:52 pm
And over half of them is due to our colonial heritage. (Not a history to be proud of.)

It's a mixed bag, in the latter stages of colonization I think you could argue it ended up being highly beneficial and in many cases ended too abruptly.

For instance, I wish we had not allowed ourselves to be bribed into abandoning Maluku. It should have been a separate country.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 17, 2016, 07:35:13 pm
I had a long conversation with someone yesterday on this very topic. He's sense is that the european (continent) investments in London (we were talking mostly about the financial services industry) is due to what the city has to offer, not because UK/London being part of the EU. As such, he believes that the investments will likely continue, without substantial declines as others have suggested.
I tend to agree with that assessment.
Interesting, the stockmarkets do not agree and the banks are preparing for a move probably towards Luxembourg or some other financial paradise inside the EU, at least that is the news we are hearing.
It is not as much the EU or britisch/scottisch banks ofcourse but the big international banks that want to be in the EU for their business that are moving. We'll see what happens, again who knows really? :-//
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 17, 2016, 07:45:00 pm
Yes, the banks are preparing for contingency plans. and I think you should expect, over a long period of time (3 - 5 years), as the UK government negotiates with the EU for market accesses, additional barriers will come up.

It is pre-mature to claim whether the UK (or the continent) will be worse off because of that. A much harder question that many people are trying to find out is if there exists sectors or locales that are to benefit from brexit.

The whole thing is quite interesting from a macro-investing perspective, as the range and severity of outcome are extreme and unprecedented.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 17, 2016, 07:48:36 pm
Yesterday on the news a UK farmer that wanted to leave the EU although she receives directly 45k GBP a year subsidy from the EU.
Still she wants to leave, well that is someone at least that has it hopefully figured out, although I wonder what her prices will look like in a year.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Howardlong on June 17, 2016, 07:53:28 pm
I had a long conversation with someone yesterday on this very topic. He's sense is that the european (continent) investments in London (we were talking mostly about the financial services industry) is due to what the city has to offer, not because UK/London being part of the EU. As such, he believes that the investments will likely continue, without substantial declines as others have suggested.
I tend to agree with that assessment.
Interesting, the stockmarkets do not agree and the banks are preparing for a move probably towards Luxembourg or some other financial paradise inside the EU, at least that is the news we are hearing.
It is not as much the EU or britisch/scottisch banks ofcourse but the big international banks that want to be in the EU for their business that are moving. We'll see what happens, again who knows really? :-//

Those were exactly the fears stated two decades ago about the UK's retiscence about the Euro, with the grim reaper taking all the filthy lucre to Frankfurt. There was plenty on uncertainty for a while. Stories of fund managers and hedgies going to Zurich (er, well, the astute will see that that's not in the EU either). Nothing could have been further from the truth, in fact quite the opposite.

Indeed, as you say, who knows really?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 17, 2016, 07:55:13 pm
Stock markets are small potatos.  As for banks. I don't know if even Luxemburg will give them their own little semi-private police force to harass people with, or has a large enough economy to convincingly limit counterparty risk of "too big to fail" entities.

Brexit leaves the UK financial industry with no options remotely as good as the City and the UK were ... you'd almost feel sorry for them.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Howardlong on June 17, 2016, 08:03:32 pm
Stock markets are small potatos.  As for banks. I don't know if even Luxemburg will give them their own little semi-private police force to harass people with, or has a large enough economy to convincingly limit counterparty risk of "too big to fail" entities.

Brexit leaves the UK financial industry with no options remotely as good as the City and the UK were ... you'd almost feel sorry for them.

Which is why it will largely be business as usual.

The reason for market dips is not on value, it's on uncertainty, and a Brexit certainly brings that, which is why perversely the markets rallied on the deeply regretable and unfortunate death of MP Jo Cox yesterday who was a remain supporter and campaigner, seeing it as a motivator to improve the remain vote.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: NivagSwerdna on June 17, 2016, 08:28:11 pm
Brexit leaves the UK financial industry with no options remotely as good as the City and the UK were ... you'd almost feel sorry for them.
Is that why Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan gave £500,000 each to the remain campaign or were they just being public spirited?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Howardlong on June 17, 2016, 08:33:01 pm


The perp had known mental problems. It is exceptionally lazy and unhelpful to assume that all those who vote in a certain way in this referendum share the same deranged ideology.

In addition, there is as yet no official connection drawn between the acts of this nutter and the Brexit campaigns, and much as it is easy to draw conclusions from hearsay, I suggest that it should be treated as that.

Washington post is a well respected paper, a US of A paper mind you! Try to fade him away as a  basic UK nutter is extremely lame!

One thing I am sure of is that the UK electorate will deal with a rather more informed and rational view than a foreign journalist making a few dollars from a few column inches, especially bearing in mind the gravity of what just happened.

In fact possibly the worst thing in the view of the Remain faction is foreign opinion trying to dictate a position on national sovereignty, and understandably so, they would only be preaching to the converted, so what's the point? The other side will innevitably see them as biased individuals and if not discount them completely, and positively vote against them. After all, what would you think if you were in the same position?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Howardlong on June 17, 2016, 08:34:45 pm
Brexit leaves the UK financial industry with no options remotely as good as the City and the UK were ... you'd almost feel sorry for them.
Is that why Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan gave £500,000 each to the remain campaign or were they just being public spirited?

If they really meant that they'd be spending a lot more an that. That's a low ball bonus for one employee.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 17, 2016, 09:00:32 pm
Well it's certainly refreshing to hear all the doom-mongering from our European mainland cousins.

I've been speaking to my European colleagues, one brands anyone who wishes to leave a racist, no matter their reason, declares that it's a personal affront and storms off in a huff.

Another says that there will be a war and when asked who would be the aggressor claims that it will be the British.

I love rational arguments.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 17, 2016, 09:04:21 pm

Even the Remain camp are stating that house prices will ease as a result of a Brexit. To many people that would be welcome, certainly where I live, where you need to be earning £150k+ just to buy a £500,000 studio apartment. There is nothing racist in that.

There is nothing racist in stating that schools are under pressure from children where English is not their first language.

There is nothing racist in stating that the NHS is under pressure from health tourism because the NHS is so freely available to all.

All of those three things you mention are only perceived to be racist because individuals choose to manipulate it to be so for their own agenda. It is not racist to point out that these things happen.
No, straightforward statements of accurate fact are not in themselves racist.

But statements which are selective, sometimes inaccurate, irrelevant or peripheral to the point under dissuasion and made by those with an agenda knowing full well that they will play to the fears of the masses become something else entirely.

Not that either side has exactly distinguished itself in this debate (and I use the term advisedly).
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on June 17, 2016, 09:05:52 pm
Not that either side has exactly distinguished itself in this debate (and I use the term advisedly).

IMNSHO, it has become a squalid, disgraceful mass debate.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: NivagSwerdna on June 17, 2016, 09:19:13 pm
it has become a squalid, disgraceful mass debate.
I have a feeling that politics had already become that, the public scrutiny just exposed it to the masses.
It would be good to hope for a more tolerant future... Sadly I think it will get worse before it gets better.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 17, 2016, 09:21:06 pm
We really don't do dynasties around here and getting this stopped in its tracks is a good idea.

Actually you do - far more than Europe.

Start with Bush Snr, then Jnr, and then Jeb tried to make it number 3.

Continue with the Kennedys; Jack/John was number 1, and Robert would probably have been number 2 if he hadn't been murdered.

Were there any earlier ones?

John Adams 2d President and John Quincy Adams 6th President (father-son)
Theodore Roosevelt 26th President and Franklin D Roosevelt 32d President (5th cousins)

There may be others but history isn't my interest.

George W Bush wasn't nearly as bright as his father and Jeb, well, Jeb isn't highly regarded either.  I actually thought Jeb would do better than he did.  Either name recognition didn't help or it helped a lot.  It depends on your point of view.  What I wouldn't have wanted to see was Rubio or Cruz as a candidate.


Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 17, 2016, 09:35:38 pm
I don't normally give Polly Toynbee much time but I think that she hit the right note in this article The mood is is ugly, and an MP is dead (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/16/mood-ugly-mp-dead-jo-cox). The Leave campaign is playing the race card and it is not pleasant.

The race card has been played hard, fast and often by both sides.

I've read tons of articles in the press and posts on various forums where the premise is "if you are in favor of Brexit, you're just a racist and hate minorities".

As these issues come close to vote, the voices get louder and as both sides get more desperate, they pile on the drama and accusations and firm their resolve not to listen to or consider any aspect of the opposing viewpoint.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Zero999 on June 17, 2016, 10:20:19 pm
Yesterday on the news a UK farmer that wanted to leave the EU although she receives directly 45k GBP a year subsidy from the EU.
Still she wants to leave, well that is someone at least that has it hopefully figured out, although I wonder what her prices will look like in a year.
Because it's not all about the money. Plenty of people want freedom from the EU, even if it means they will be financially worse off.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on June 17, 2016, 10:53:55 pm
We really don't do dynasties around here and getting this stopped in its tracks is a good idea.

Actually you do - far more than Europe.

Start with Bush Snr, then Jnr, and then Jeb tried to make it number 3.

Continue with the Kennedys; Jack/John was number 1, and Robert would probably have been number 2 if he hadn't been murdered.

Were there any earlier ones?

John Adams 2d President and John Quincy Adams 6th President (father-son)
Theodore Roosevelt 26th President and Franklin D Roosevelt 32d President (5th cousins)

There may be others but history isn't my interest.

George W Bush wasn't nearly as bright as his father and Jeb, well, Jeb isn't highly regarded either.  I actually thought Jeb would do better than he did.  Either name recognition didn't help or it helped a lot.  It depends on your point of view.  What I wouldn't have wanted to see was Rubio or Cruz as a candidate.

I wondered about the Roosevelts, but couldn't be bothered to check.

I think it is clear that transpondians do have more dysenteries (sic) than Europeans, at least in the last century or two.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 18, 2016, 12:20:35 am
Washington post is a well respected paper, a US of A paper mind you!
Not anymore. It's now owned by Bezos and serves his political agenda.
Thats goood, thats gooood,(http://imagesmtv-a.akamaihd.net/uri/mgid:file:http:shared:mtv.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/could-emperor-palpatine-return-for-the-newest-star-wars-1450823704.jpg?quality=0.85&format=jpg&width=480)

Well, pick a EU paper then if that makes you feel better..

Quote
Self preservation, pragmatism before ideology, avoiding identity politics, facing reality as is without
a dense smoke screen of political correctness, and avoiding a blind adherence to the status quo.

Oh yes self preservation and a weird ideology you will get from Trump, have Trump revealed his taxes yet?

Quote
Quote
The last two presidents here were no good.


He is a far better choice than the alternative.  First of all, he's a proven disrupter.  I don't think we'll be hanging around in the Middle East and, with luck and planning, maybe we'll be out of eastern Europe before the fireworks start. There will probably be some other disruptions in foreign relations and I'm all for that!

The alternative brings with her a pending storm.  Little Chelsea wants to be President just like her mommy and daddy. We really don't do dynasties around here and getting this stopped in its tracks is a good idea.
Yes you do dynasties.

Zpata criticized me for my lack of rational critical thinking so what he and some other Americans here are saying is that out of a 318,9 million intellectual "rational critical thinking" population all that they can come up with as presidential candidates is a: communist, a: dynasist and a: lame Mussolini impersonator!?

(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--m83gd-OQ--/1455104314292691783.jpg)

So Nixon was good? What about (picking random),Benjamin Harrison? Ronald Reagan?

Quote
From the wars in the middle east (over estimating benefit/cost), the rise of ISIS ('a JV team') doubling our national debt (each on his own), restricting the healthcare insurance market (try to change carrier mid year), more people on food stamps, decline in good jobs, terror attacks,
and rampant illegal immigration.  A rational American has many reasons not voting for more-of-the-same.

You are asking to much of your 2 party system, with Trump as president you might face a 1 party/person system as Trump would not hesitate to manipulate the constitution to suit his needs well Bush ignored it in parts, just as Putin manipulates his system. Ah i forgot that Trump adores Putin, find's him a reasonable and "strong man", does that mean that the Swedes should stop spy on the Russians on US behalf as they have done for quite many years already? US intelligence are extremely pleased of this "Swedish specialty".. Sweden and Us just recently signed a Statement of Intent, well not much in public but a lot behind the curtains, which gives US access to Swedish airfields in case Putin goes berserk! So with Trump as president is that cancelled?
 
Here is interesting report about Trump and prior presidents willingness to obey congress/constitution, maybe you will find a conspiracy lurking in Time mag as well...

http://time.com/4320105/donald-trump-u-s-constitution/ (http://time.com/4320105/donald-trump-u-s-constitution/)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 18, 2016, 01:13:26 am
You are asking to much of your 2 party system, with Trump as president you might face a 1 party/person system as Trump would not hesitate to manipulate the constitution to suit his needs well Bush ignored it in parts, just as Putin manipulates his system. Ah i forgot that Trump adores Putin, find's him a reasonable and "strong man", does that mean that the Swedes should stop spy on the Russians on US behalf as they have done for quite many years already? US intelligence are extremely pleased of this "Swedish specialty".
Here is interesting report about Trump and prior presidents willingness to obey congress/constitution, maybe you will find a conspiracy lurking in Time mag as well...

http://time.com/4320105/donald-trump-u-s-constitution/ (http://time.com/4320105/donald-trump-u-s-constitution/)
You should consume less propaganda on evenings. You are so concerned about Putin, but most of what you see are scare stories like those about Russian submarine 2 years ago which turned out to be bullshit as your defense minister admitted recently. Guess what was the purpose of searching non existent submarine:
Quote
. Sweden and Us just recently signed a Statement of Intent, well not much in public but a lot behind the curtains, which gives US access to Swedish airfields in case Putin goes berserk! So with Trump as president is that cancelled?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on June 18, 2016, 04:15:37 am
This is, of course, the problem - there is always a gulf between reality and perception and there are always fears which politicians can use for leverage.

When it comes to any politically fought campaign, reality is completely irrelevant.  Perception is the only thing that matters.

If you can get some reality into the perception, then well and good - but it will have no greater power than straight out lies that are presented well.

Unfortunately.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 18, 2016, 04:40:43 pm

Zpata criticized me for my lack of rational critical thinking so what he and some other Americans here are saying is that out of a 318,9 million intellectual "rational critical thinking" population all that they can come up with as presidential candidates is a: communist, a: dynasist and a: lame Mussolini impersonator!?

No rational person wants the job!  We have a number of outstanding leaders but none of them are politicians.
Trump can't do as much damage as some folks forecast in the same way that Obama can't really implement all of his ideas (thankfully!).  The Executive Branch doesn't make the laws, they just selectively enforce them, or not.  And there is the possibility of impeachment...  I'm not worried about Trump but Hillary scares the hell out of me.  As long as the Republicans control either the House or Senate, things will probably be ok.

The thing is, the Republicans really want to go to war with someone.  McCain is always wanting to get involved in something.  Our work in the middle east is done, the place is in flames.   Eastern Europe should be heating up any day now.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 18, 2016, 05:09:20 pm
...  The Executive Branch doesn't make the laws, they just selectively enforce them, or not.

Here they can also veto new laws, threaten to shut off the government,  control federal funds distribution, go to wars, and even make new laws (regardless how those things are called).

The pure model of three branches that is taught in civic class doesn't apply anymore. The central executive branch keeps growing, gaining more power, and becoming more intrusive.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Jeroen3 on June 18, 2016, 06:02:25 pm
Eastern Europe should be heating up any day now.
No wars in our backyard. Keep your main export product to yourself for once.
It's about Brexit here, not the next cold war.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 18, 2016, 06:15:57 pm
Eastern Europe should be heating up any day now.
No wars in our backyard. Keep your main export product to yourself for once.
It's about Brexit here, not the next cold war.

Very good, we will not need to bail you out again.

https://www.abmc.gov/cemeteries-memorials/europe/netherlands-american-cemetery (https://www.abmc.gov/cemeteries-memorials/europe/netherlands-american-cemetery)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 18, 2016, 07:34:29 pm
If you can't see the difference between WW2 where we were and still are very gratefull for your countries sacrifices and help to end it and all the next wars that were kind of started and escalated to insanity like Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, not to mention the meddling in South America, please don't , you will only make things worse. The only way to see and experience that is to have one on your own turf, then you will know and never want to be at war again.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 18, 2016, 07:52:10 pm
If you can't see the difference between WW2 where we were and still are very gratefull for your countries sacrifices and help to end it and all the next wars that were kind of started and escalated to insanity like Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, not to mention the meddling in South America, please don't , you will only make things worse. The only way to see and experience that is to have one on your own turf, then you will know and never want to be at war again.
I see your point, it was OK to bail out the Nederland but not South Korea, Kuwait, South Vietnam or the Shia in Iraq.

That's why I like Trump's 'America first' approach, let those ungrateful people fight their own wars.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on June 18, 2016, 08:21:50 pm
That's why I like Trump's 'America first' approach, let those ungrateful people fight their own wars.

Ah, how people forget "inconvenient" history.

When the UK was the dominant trading nation (19thC), we accepted the necessity of being the world's policeman, in order to maintain the trade.

The USA delayed entering WW2 for >2 years, until they could be sure that they would become the dominant trading nation afterward. Since they have chosen that role with its advantages, it looks childishly churlish if they don't like accepting the concomitant responsibilities.

In their favour, the USA has joined each war after WW2 early - some would argue too early, before it was necessary.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rolycat on June 18, 2016, 09:30:11 pm
Trump is a textbook demagogue: everything he says is designed to engage with people's emotions, fears and prejudices rather than their brains.

Very much the same tactics being used by both sides of the Brexit campaign, in fact.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 18, 2016, 09:40:24 pm
Trump is a textbook demagogue: everything he says is designed to engage with people's emotions, fears and prejudices rather than their brains.

Very much the same tactics being used by both sides of the Brexit campaign, in fact.
The fact that you fail to see the rationale may say something about you, not necessarily about him :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Rick Law on June 18, 2016, 09:44:18 pm
With Britain and USA are both dealing with our own similar soul searching, I suppose that makes BRExit and Trump Movement so closely linked.  Further, both Britain and USA are not connected to the Continental Europe that gave us some what of a separation from continental European views.

To correct some misinterpretation of events:
Trump is not proposing exclusion of Muslim from entering/immigrating to the USA.  Trump is proposing a temporary halt on Muslim entering the USA until we find a good way of vetting them.  (Key words are in bold)

Recent events:
- Orlando FL, shooter called the police to pledge his allegiance to ISIS.
- CIA Director just yesterday warned us about ISIS using "refugees" to infiltrate.
Looking just a bit further back, there was the Boston Bombing, San Bernardino Shooting...  and
Philadelphia police ambushed and shot.

Temporary halts of immigration from adversaries occur every time we are at war.  While we did not declare war on them, they certain have done so on us, by action and by words.  So being under attack, I see a temporary halt of movement from attackers as a perfectly reasonable action.

Related but somewhat of a side note: The last case cited (Philadelphia) is in my opinion why Americans are loosing trust with establishment.  I saw the press conference live on TV.  The police chief just finish saying what the shooter told investigators: "I follow Allah. I pledge my allegiance to the Islamic State and that's why I did what I did."  Yet within moments the Mayor came up to the lectern and say "the shooting had nothing to do with Islam."
(it was a lectern and not a podium - it drives me crazy when people keep calling a lectern a podium).

* * *
Reference/Souce:

Shooting in Orlando FL, shooter called the police to pledge his allegiance to ISIS.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/06/12/orlando-nightclub-shooting-about-20-dead-in-domestic-terror-incident-at-gay-club/?utm_term=.dcc49c61967a (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/06/12/orlando-nightclub-shooting-about-20-dead-in-domestic-terror-incident-at-gay-club/?utm_term=.dcc49c61967a)
"The gunman was identified as Omar Mateen, a 29-year-old security guard who was born in New York to Afghan parents. After his initial assault on the dance club, Mateen called 911 and pledged allegiance to the leader of the Islamic State, also known as ISIS, according to federal law enforcement officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the FBI investigation is unfolding. "


CIA Director just yesterday warned us about ISIS using "refugees" to infiltrate.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/16/politics/john-brennan-cia-isis/ (http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/16/politics/john-brennan-cia-isis/)
"Brennan warned that the group already is preparing more attacks, including by infiltrating refugees into western nations."


Philadelphia police ambushed and shot.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/08/us/philadelphia-police-officer-shot/ (http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/08/us/philadelphia-police-officer-shot/)
A 30-year-old man who allegedly ambushed and shot a Philadelphia police officer sitting in his patrol car
...
the suspect said to investigators: "I follow Allah. I pledge my allegiance to the Islamic State and that's why I did what I did."
...
Mayor Jim Kenney said the shooting had nothing to do with Islam.




Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rolycat on June 18, 2016, 09:47:07 pm
Trump is a textbook demagogue: everything he says is designed to engage with people's emotions, fears and prejudices rather than their brains.

Very much the same tactics being used by both sides of the Brexit campaign, in fact.
The fact that you fail to see the rationale may say something about you, not necessarily about him :)

Ad hominem
attacks are always a great way to avoid addressing the issues.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Rick Law on June 18, 2016, 09:51:04 pm
Trump is a textbook demagogue: everything he says is designed to engage with people's emotions, fears and prejudices rather than their brains.

Very much the same tactics being used by both sides of the Brexit campaign, in fact.

What action did Trump took made him a demagogue?  What did he say that made him a demagogue?  Give me a quote please.

Remember, the Trump is the older guy who wants to get into the White House and not the younger one currently is in the White House.  Oh, also, Trump is the older MAN and not the older woman who used to be in the White House living quarters.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 18, 2016, 09:57:40 pm
I see your point, it was OK to bail out the Nederland but not South Korea, Kuwait, South Vietnam or the Shia in Iraq.

Pushing South Korea into independence was a mistake in retrospect and hard to justify at the time.

Supporting Hussein in the Iran war was a mistake in retrospect and hard to justify at the time.

Supporting Diem in Vietnam was a mistake in retrospect, supporting his assassination more so and hard to justify at the time. On top of that by the time the US population tired of war, the war had created a monster much worthier of fighting, Pol Pot.

The wars are sometimes justifiable, but the roads we keep taking towards them are not.

Which brings us to the Ukraine. The EU and international NGOs had no economic advantage in trying to bribe Ukraine into a trade deal which would preclude joining the Russian Customs Union. Now supposedly we have the moral obligation to bail out the Ukraine, because some EU bureaucrats being pushed by god knows what international forces wanted to poke the bear. Also we have to keep poking harder and harder to prove we are not appeasers, appeasers begot us Hitler don't you know.

PS. painting Trump as some supreme demagogue is silly, he's a clown. For every appeal to emotion he makes Obama makes a couple more. The only difference is the emotions they appeal to, Obama appeals to the ones we are supposedly allowed to appeal to ... Trump not so much.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 18, 2016, 10:01:35 pm



Ad hominem
attacks are always a great way to avoid addressing the issues.

What issue, that all you see in Trump's campaign is an appeal to fear without any rationale base?

I think I did addressed it, it may be the result of your own projection.

This is not a personal attack.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 18, 2016, 10:03:58 pm
That's why I like Trump's 'America first' approach, let those ungrateful people fight their own wars.

Ah, how people forget "inconvenient" history.

When the UK was the dominant trading nation (19thC), we accepted the necessity of being the world's policeman, in order to maintain the trade.

The USA delayed entering WW2 for >2 years, until they could be sure that they would become the dominant trading nation afterward. Since they have chosen that role with its advantages, it looks childishly churlish if they don't like accepting the concomitant responsibilities.

In their favour, the USA has joined each war after WW2 early - some would argue too early, before it was necessary.

Regardless of our motivations back then, we don't have the will to get involved in Europe on a large scale basis.  We don't have a draft, there's no way in hell it could be restarted short of an attack on our shores by a nation state and we have lost the last 3 or 4 wars we have been in.  We have the tools but not the will to use them.

I don't think any nation should count on unconditional US support.  We're all in this separately!

And, yes, Trump is talking about exactly the things that concern his supporters.  Jobs, immigration, foreign relations.  Is he talking to people's fears?  Well, that depends on how you look at it.  There is nothing on this planet that I fear but there are a lot of things I view as wrong.  Pretty much the same list that Trump uses...

BREXIT brings a different dynamic to what the US might be willing to do.  I'm pretty sure we would commit whatever is necessary to assist the UK.  The US has always had the support of the UK.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rolycat on June 18, 2016, 10:06:20 pm
Trump is a textbook demagogue: everything he says is designed to engage with people's emotions, fears and prejudices rather than their brains.

Very much the same tactics being used by both sides of the Brexit campaign, in fact.

What action did Trump took made him a demagogue?  What did he say that made him a demagogue?  Give me a quote please.
As enjoyable as it might be, this thread is not the appropriate place for a protracted discussion of Donald Trump's verbal excretions.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 18, 2016, 10:08:42 pm
I see it the opposite way. So far all other compaigns were an appeal to fear of Trump
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Rick Law on June 18, 2016, 10:17:22 pm
...
...
Supporting Diem in Vietnam was a mistake in retrospect, supporting his assassination more so and hard to justify at the time. On top of that by the time the US population tired of war, the war had created a monster much worthier of fighting, Pol Pot.
...
...

Actually, I think the mistake was earlier than supporting Diem.  The mistake was not to see it as a war between the colony and the colonial master.  Instead we mistaken it as "war against communism."

My intepretation of history is that "Uncle Ho" really got closer to communism because they were the only ones willing to support him and we want to stand in the way to stop communism from gaining.  I think Ho would have been rather willing to give up communism to achieve nationhood.  So had we "play it right" and help him with "birth of a nation", there might have been a unified Vietnam under Ho and non-communist.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Rick Law on June 18, 2016, 10:22:04 pm
Trump is a textbook demagogue: everything he says is designed to engage with people's emotions, fears and prejudices rather than their brains.

Very much the same tactics being used by both sides of the Brexit campaign, in fact.

What action did Trump took made him a demagogue?  What did he say that made him a demagogue?  Give me a quote please.
As enjoyable as it might be, this thread is not the appropriate place for a protracted discussion of Donald Trump's verbal excretions.

If you cannot cite a quote, it is baseless.  Why then do you see this as an appropriate place for you to throw verbal bombs and baseless accusations?

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rolycat on June 18, 2016, 10:37:18 pm
Trump is a textbook demagogue: everything he says is designed to engage with people's emotions, fears and prejudices rather than their brains.

Very much the same tactics being used by both sides of the Brexit campaign, in fact.

What action did Trump took made him a demagogue?  What did he say that made him a demagogue?  Give me a quote please.
As enjoyable as it might be, this thread is not the appropriate place for a protracted discussion of Donald Trump's verbal excretions.

If you cannot cite a quote, it is baseless. 
I could cite any number of quotes, as could anyone with access to a search engine. As I have already stated, this is not the appropriate venue.

Quote
Why then do you see this as an appropriate place for you to throw verbal bombs and baseless accusations?
The thread was already drifting into an acrimonious discussion of US politics, and I made a clearly fruitless effort to move from a discussion of Trump to the tactics of the Brexit crowd.

Discussing Brexit is interesting because the correct course of action is not at all obvious.

Discussing Trump is less so because there is a vast and largely unbridgeable gulf between his supporters and his detractors. "Discussions" inevitably become slanging matches.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 18, 2016, 11:14:18 pm

Discussing Brexit is interesting because the correct course of action is not at all obvious.


The UK voters need look no further than their own poet, John Milton:
"Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven."

Many of his writings were about political upheaval...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rolycat on June 18, 2016, 11:35:38 pm

Discussing Brexit is interesting because the correct course of action is not at all obvious.


The UK voters need look no further than their own poet, John Milton:
"Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven."

Is Satan really the most appropriate counsellor when searching for the right thing to do?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 19, 2016, 12:01:17 am
Quote
- Orlando FL, shooter called the police to pledge his allegiance to ISIS.

Far more than that.

The president and his men emphasized that the gunman is home grown. Why let him into our home?

The president and his men emphasized that the gunman is radicalized. Well, by his religion. What does that say about Islam's teaching?

The president and his men emphasized that the gunman is mentally ill. Well, who systemically dismantled our institutional care for mentally ill patients?

The president and his men emphasized that the gunman used an automatic weapon. Well, would he be any less evil had he used a rifle or a handgun to kill those people?

...

The president and his men had blood on their hands.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: ez24 on June 19, 2016, 12:22:30 am
Discussing Brexit is interesting because the correct course of action is not at all obvious.

Are there any non-bias sites explaining what Brexit is?
thanks
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: retrolefty on June 19, 2016, 12:36:51 am
Quote
The president and his men emphasized that the gunman used an automatic weapon. Well, would he be any less evil had he used a rifle or a handgun to kill those people?

He did not have a automatic weapon. He had semi-automatic rifle and handgun. I hate it when people get the facts wrong or don't understand the technology vocabulary.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 19, 2016, 12:49:01 am
Discussing Brexit is interesting because the correct course of action is not at all obvious.

Are there any non-bias sites explaining what Brexit is?
thanks

Maybe this:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/world/europe/britain-european-union-brexit.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/world/europe/britain-european-union-brexit.html?_r=0)

Basically, over time, the UK leaves the EU.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Rick Law on June 19, 2016, 12:52:54 am
Trump is a textbook demagogue: everything he says is designed to engage with people's emotions, fears and prejudices rather than their brains.

Very much the same tactics being used by both sides of the Brexit campaign, in fact.

What action did Trump took made him a demagogue?  What did he say that made him a demagogue?  Give me a quote please.
As enjoyable as it might be, this thread is not the appropriate place for a protracted discussion of Donald Trump's verbal excretions.

If you cannot cite a quote, it is baseless. 
I could cite any number of quotes, as could anyone with access to a search engine. As I have already stated, this is not the appropriate venue.

Quote
Why then do you see this as an appropriate place for you to throw verbal bombs and baseless accusations?
The thread was already drifting into an acrimonious discussion of US politics, and I made a clearly fruitless effort to move from a discussion of Trump to the tactics of the Brexit crowd.

Discussing Brexit is interesting because the correct course of action is not at all obvious.

Discussing Trump is less so because there is a vast and largely unbridgeable gulf between his supporters and his detractors. "Discussions" inevitably become slanging matches.

I have searched the web up and down, and as many others, we clearly see that your accusations are not supported by facts.

So, my point is - if it is not appropriate to cite quotes, then, it is not appropriate to say things that requires the support of a citation. 
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 19, 2016, 01:38:53 am
The people that should know say Brexit will not happen. The odds for Leave are as high as 9/4.

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/eu-referendum/referendum-on-eu-membership-result (http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/eu-referendum/referendum-on-eu-membership-result)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 19, 2016, 02:20:46 am
The people that should know say Brexit will not happen. The odds for Leave are as high as 9/4.

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/eu-referendum/referendum-on-eu-membership-result (http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/eu-referendum/referendum-on-eu-membership-result)

Well, in a few days we'll know.  Don't overlook the possibility of hidden anger and lying to pollsters.  People might not want to start a confrontation by admitting they'll vote to leave.  But they will...

It'll be fun to watch no matter how it comes out.  That's easy to say as a non-participant!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 19, 2016, 11:45:50 am
Discussing Brexit is interesting because the correct course of action is not at all obvious.

Are there any non-bias sites explaining what Brexit is?
thanks

Maybe this:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/world/europe/britain-european-union-brexit.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/world/europe/britain-european-union-brexit.html?_r=0)

Basically, over time, the UK leaves the EU.

What is a good unbiased source within UK? One that looks at the poll and possible outcomes and effects without being linked to In or Out?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 19, 2016, 12:59:06 pm
What is a good unbiased source within UK? One that looks at the poll and possible outcomes and effects without being linked to In or Out?
The BBC one is reasonable http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35603388 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35603388)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: NivagSwerdna on June 19, 2016, 01:02:15 pm
What is a good unbiased source within UK? One that looks at the poll and possible outcomes and effects without being linked to In or Out?
I don't think such a place exists.  Indeed, events are changing so fast it is difficult to predict the fate of the EU especially on it's eastern borders... just look at the deteriorating state of democracy in Turkey... unfortunately we live in an age of substantial change.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 19, 2016, 01:13:14 pm
What is a good unbiased source within UK? One that looks at the poll and possible outcomes and effects without being linked to In or Out?
The BBC one is reasonable http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35603388 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35603388)
The BBC is heavily biased in favour of Remain.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rolycat on June 19, 2016, 01:49:21 pm
What is a good unbiased source within UK? One that looks at the poll and possible outcomes and effects without being linked to In or Out?
The BBC one is reasonable http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35603388 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35603388)
The BBC is heavily biased in favour of Remain.
An unqualified claim from someone in the Leave camp.

I suspect that there is an implicit bias towards the Remain position in some BBC reporting, but on the whole I have found that they do their best to present facts without slanting them in either direction. Finding an absolutely impartial source of information is probably impossible.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on June 19, 2016, 01:54:55 pm
What is a good unbiased source within UK? One that looks at the poll and possible outcomes and effects without being linked to In or Out?
The BBC one is reasonable http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35603388 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35603388)
The BBC is heavily biased in favour of Remain.

Riiiiight. Just like they are a bunch of hippie communists?

Or maybe because they point out the nonsense statements aren't backed up by solid facts and/or are lying-by-omission? (Nonsense that is spouted by both sides, IMNSHO).
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 19, 2016, 03:09:31 pm
What is a good unbiased source within UK? One that looks at the poll and possible outcomes and effects without being linked to In or Out?
The BBC one is reasonable http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35603388 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35603388)
The BBC is heavily biased in favour of Remain.

Riiiiight. Just like they are a bunch of hippie communists?

Or maybe because they point out the nonsense statements aren't backed up by solid facts and/or are lying-by-omission? (Nonsense that is spouted by both sides, IMNSHO).
It's as much what they completely ignore.

Riots in Greece and France - Not newsworthy.
Switzerland withdraws it's application to join the EU - Not newsworthy.

Remain makes a claim - Very high proportion on the main news page of the website.
Leave makes a claim - Low proportion on the main news page of the website, usually only on politics sub-page, or referendum sub-sub-page.

Their explanations of how the EU works always gloss over the EU Commission. They always play down it's power and it's lack of democracy (lack of democracy is in fact never mentioned). They never mention that the only part of the EU which can propose laws has no democratic accountability at all. Or that there is no mechanism to repeal EU laws.

They do seem to have been getting less biased in the last month, as both sides have made more and more incredible claims.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on June 19, 2016, 03:33:43 pm
The Commission acts as a civil service, which admittedly makes them immensely powerful, but doesn't give them decision-making powers, the (elected) European Parliament comments on them and can ask for changes, and the Council of Ministers (representing the democratically elected leaders of each member country)  makes the decisions.   Not perfect, but not obviously 'undemocratic' either.

The main role of the European Court (not to be confused with the European Human Rights Court, which is nothing to do with the EU) mainly checks whether governments have stuck to what they agreed to.  If they don't like its decisions countries have to go back to the Council of Ministers and say where they would like things changed.  Democratically.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 19, 2016, 03:39:43 pm
To correct some misinterpretation of events:
Trump is not proposing exclusion of Muslim from entering/immigrating to the USA.  Trump is proposing a temporary halt on Muslim entering the USA until we find a good way of vetting them.  (Key words are in bold)

Yep.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=33233 (http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=33233)

"the Secretary of Treasury [State] and the Attorney General will invalidate all visas issued to Iranian citizens for future entry into the United States, effective today. We will not reissue visas, nor will we issue new visas, except for compelling and proven humanitarian reasons or where the national interest of our own country requires. This directive will be interpreted very strictly."

Jimmy Carter,  April 7 1980


This is the problem with America's SJW's, they were all born yesterday.


Also, LOL at the BBC being considered unbiased. I must say it's been a stealthy change which has made me question if it was just me or not, and I expect everyone at the BBC considers themselves neutral, but there have been too many times where echoes of literary dystopias are apparent.
Maybe it's one for history to reflect upon, such changes are hard to quantify and easy to dismiss, without hindsight nations undergoing such changes are powerless to stop it.

I suspect we are at least one small step closer to blood on the streets than we were before, too many people are being left out of this debate between invested career politicians.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 19, 2016, 04:01:53 pm
The Commission acts as a civil service, which admittedly makes them immensely powerful, but doesn't give them decision-making powers, the (elected) European Parliament comments on them and can ask for changes, and the Council of Ministers (representing the democratically elected leaders of each member country)  makes the decisions.   Not perfect, but not obviously 'undemocratic' either.

The main role of the European Court (not to be confused with the European Human Rights Court, which is nothing to do with the EU) mainly checks whether governments have stuck to what they agreed to.  If they don't like its decisions countries have to go back to the Council of Ministers and say where they would like things changed.  Democratically.
Except that is completely untrue.

Is the British civil service the only body able to propose laws? No. That is the job of our parliament.
Does the British civil service have agenda-setting powers? No. That is the job of our government.

So the European Commission, who you say are just a civil service, actually have the powers of our government and parliament. While the European parliament have rubber-stamping powers for those laws proposed by the commission. Now that's democracy!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 19, 2016, 04:02:46 pm
If it is 50/50 as the polls indicate I wish the UK good luck in the aftermath, you still have a devided population.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 19, 2016, 04:04:38 pm
Also, LOL at the BBC being considered unbiased.
The BBC tries hard to be neutral, sometimes mind-bendingly so but it does have bias.

However the EU Reality Check section of the website is clearly trying to provide a reliable source of information with so much bullshit floating around.

I note no-one has offered an alternative.

If it is 50/50 as the polls indicate I wish the UK good luck in the aftermath, you still have a devided population.
It was always going to be close, Cameron should have learned the lessons from the Scottish referendum but was hell bent on this course
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: pelule on June 19, 2016, 05:54:18 pm
Quote
The BBC tries hard to be neutral, sometimes mind-bendingly so but it does have bias.
As I am also living in net paying country, I am doing worldwide business, I am not able to be neutral either. I assume nobody does.
Never the less I like to tell my opinion.
My "not neutral" position:
Out of my view the main cause of the often claimed (social) imbalance is not caused by the EC, it's cause by that people, which try to make their maximum win at the expense of the society - just one example: use any trick (even illegal sometimes) to save taxes. The "BREXIT" vote will not change that.
My "cause of the problem":
All countries in the EC are controlled by majority decisions by "the nation". But the "one voice" does simply not exist, the "stream" changes whith each press release. The nation is a huge mass of different targets and motivations.
Each individual will claim to want the best for the comunity - but that's true only, if one has not to pay for personally.
That's the problem of democracy - a much more smart person ones said:
"The worst form of government I know, is democracy, but I don't know a better one".
The EC is just a bigger version - so I am not expecting a difference result.
My "proposal":
You may try to get informed, but as the sources of information will not be neutral, you have no realistic chance. Try your best, but accept - your voting will be emotional at the end.
My "prognosis":
I am highly confident - the UK, the world and also the global markets will deal with the result, as they allways do.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 19, 2016, 06:12:39 pm
Still you can't deny the fact that it is more difficult to trade with a country which has a wildly fluctuating currency versus your own. I have some UK customers and suppliers and the fact they are using pounds makes doing business riskier because I can't tell how much I will make on a project exactly. If a Brexit increases the pound versus euro volatility doing business will be harder and there will probably be more tax paperwork to fill out as well if the UK exits from the EU. All in all I think a Brexit will be a step back for me.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 19, 2016, 06:46:12 pm
Still you can't deny the fact that it is more difficult to trade with a country which has a wildly fluctuating currency versus your own. I have some UK customers and suppliers and the fact they are using pounds makes doing business riskier because I can't tell how much I will make on a project exactly. If a Brexit increases the pound versus euro volatility doing business will be harder and there will probably be more tax paperwork to fill out as well if the UK exits from the EU. All in all I think a Brexit will be a step back for me.
By all means don't do business outside the Eurozone if you're that worried.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 19, 2016, 06:51:10 pm
Quote
Still you can't deny the fact that it is more difficult to trade with a country which has a wildly fluctuating currency versus your own. I have some UK customers and suppliers and the fact they are using pounds makes doing business riskier because I can't tell how much I will make on a project exactly. If a Brexit increases the pound versus euro volatility doing business will be harder and there will probably be more tax paperwork to fill out as well if the UK exits from the EU. All in all I think a Brexit will be a step back for me.
.

Simply , the pro-Brexit say that is maneouver from  Contra-Brexit with the goal to scare the british people for changing the poll.
 But  the view of the corporations with the several variations of the pound may interpret that isn't profitable to do bussiness with britishes.

I always say that the democracy is the new religious of the XXI century ,you only have to have faith on her

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 19, 2016, 08:39:05 pm


All in all I think a Brexit will be a step back for me.

Your interest it mine do not matter here. It's about what is good for the UK and how it's citizens see the future of their country.

It's their country.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 19, 2016, 09:02:14 pm
Still you can't deny the fact that it is more difficult to trade with a country which has a wildly fluctuating currency versus your own. I have some UK customers and suppliers and the fact they are using pounds makes doing business riskier because I can't tell how much I will make on a project exactly. If a Brexit increases the pound versus euro volatility doing business will be harder and there will probably be more tax paperwork to fill out as well if the UK exits from the EU. All in all I think a Brexit will be a step back for me.
By all means don't do business outside the Eurozone if you're that worried.
I'm not worried. Just stating the impact a Brexit is likely to have on my small business. Sure hurdles can be overcome but if I have the choice to buy hassle free from Germany or have to deal with extra paperwork, banking costs and exhance rate fluctuations then the outcome is easy to predict: buy from Germany.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on June 19, 2016, 09:13:36 pm
... Just stating the impact a Brexit is likely to have on my small business. Sure hurdles can be overcome but if I have the choice to buy hassle free from Germany or have to deal with extra paperwork, banking costs and exhance rate fluctuations then the outcome is easy to predict: buy from Germany.
Except when Holland leaves EU too (I mean, they kick out the EU bureaucrats)
Imagine to have to deal with extra paperwork, banking costs and exhance rate fluctuations just to do some business with one of those remaining overpriced bigstate EU countries.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on June 19, 2016, 10:16:36 pm
The Commission acts as a civil service, which admittedly makes them immensely powerful, but doesn't give them decision-making powers, the (elected) European Parliament comments on them and can ask for changes, and the Council of Ministers (representing the democratically elected leaders of each member country)  makes the decisions.   Not perfect, but not obviously 'undemocratic' either.

The main role of the European Court (not to be confused with the European Human Rights Court, which is nothing to do with the EU) mainly checks whether governments have stuck to what they agreed to.  If they don't like its decisions countries have to go back to the Council of Ministers and say where they would like things changed.  Democratically.


Except that is completely untrue.

Is the British civil service the only body able to propose laws? No. That is the job of our parliament.
Does the British civil service have agenda-setting powers? No. That is the job of our government.

So the European Commission, who you say are just a civil service, actually have the powers of our government and parliament. While the European parliament have rubber-stamping powers for those laws proposed by the commission. Now that's democracy!

Actually in our system when a minister wants to bring in a new law it is the civil service that drafts it.  And quite often it is the civil service that suggests it!   Did you ever watch "Yes, Minister"?

And they do the cabinet agendas etc.   

Secondly, do you really believe the Commission dreams up many ideas that Cameron, Merkel or Hollande  haven't hinted might be welcome?    TTIP for instance sounds a remarkably Anglo-Saxon initiative.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 19, 2016, 10:42:02 pm
The Commission acts as a civil service, which admittedly makes them immensely powerful, but doesn't give them decision-making powers, the (elected) European Parliament comments on them and can ask for changes, and the Council of Ministers (representing the democratically elected leaders of each member country)  makes the decisions.   Not perfect, but not obviously 'undemocratic' either.

The main role of the European Court (not to be confused with the European Human Rights Court, which is nothing to do with the EU) mainly checks whether governments have stuck to what they agreed to.  If they don't like its decisions countries have to go back to the Council of Ministers and say where they would like things changed.  Democratically.

Except that is completely untrue.

Is the British civil service the only body able to propose laws? No. That is the job of our parliament.
Does the British civil service have agenda-setting powers? No. That is the job of our government.

So the European Commission, who you say are just a civil service, actually have the powers of our government and parliament. While the European parliament have rubber-stamping powers for those laws proposed by the commission. Now that's democracy!

Actually in our system when a minister wants to bring in a new law it is the civil service that drafts it.  And quite often it is the civil service that suggests it!   Did you ever watch "Yes, Minister"?

And they do the cabinet agendas etc.   

Secondly, do you really believe the Commission dreams up many ideas that Cameron, Merkel or Hollande  haven't hinted might be welcome?    TTIP for instance sounds a remarkably Anglo-Saxon initiative.

Ah so the Commission is 'Yes Minister', but without the minister. That I can believe.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 19, 2016, 10:59:24 pm
... Just stating the impact a Brexit is likely to have on my small business. Sure hurdles can be overcome but if I have the choice to buy hassle free from Germany or have to deal with extra paperwork, banking costs and exhance rate fluctuations then the outcome is easy to predict: buy from Germany.
Except when Holland leaves EU too (I mean, they kick out the EU bureaucrats)
Imagine to have to deal with extra paperwork, banking costs and exhance rate fluctuations just to do some business with one of those remaining overpriced bigstate EU countries.
I wouldn't call Germany overpriced. When I visit Germany and France I notice how many small businesses you see in the street. In Germany the restaurants and hotels are much cheaper than in the rest of West Europe.

Something else popped into my mind: how about CE when dealing with the UK in case of a Brexit? If the UK leaves the EU and I buy things from the UK I'll become the importer so I'm liable for any EMC and safety issues so basically I'd have to ask the supplier to go through a certification process and produce the paperwork instead of self-certification. The other way around is the same. And what will the UK regulations be?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: ez24 on June 19, 2016, 11:20:31 pm
From someone that really does not know what is going on.

Looking at the BBC link, I see that the most migrants are from Poland.

How does someone from Poland migrate to England?  Does someone just hop on a bus and arrive in England?  Do they need a passport?  I am making a guess there is no visa therefore no visa time restrictions.   Do they get unemployment and other benefits on arrival?  If so it seems a good way to redistribute wealth.

Is there anyway a US citizen can join the EU?  :-DD   One thing I hate about being a US citizen is how hard it is to stay (long visit) in another country.  In my youth I traveled a lot and visa stays was always a consideration on what country I went to.   I would love to be able to just show up and not worry about getting arrested for overstaying a visa.  As far as I know there is no country where I can stay for more than a year without going through hard steps.

It would be good if there was a EU that offered honorary memberships to US citizens.  I would love to be able to stay in some of them without worrying about a visa.




Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 19, 2016, 11:21:42 pm
Still you can't deny the fact that it is more difficult to trade with a country which has a wildly fluctuating currency versus your own. I have some UK customers and suppliers and the fact they are using pounds makes doing business riskier because I can't tell how much I will make on a project exactly. If a Brexit increases the pound versus euro volatility doing business will be harder and there will probably be more tax paperwork to fill out as well if the UK exits from the EU. All in all I think a Brexit will be a step back for me.
By all means don't do business outside the Eurozone if you're that worried.
:palm: Why someone should believe in UK and not worry? Want to deal (read subsidize)  with UK supplier if it becomes easier/better to deal somewhere else? Say there is supplier in Sweden, now it's 10% more expensive than someone in UK. Given all other things being about the same sure I will sure choose the deal from UK. Then after brexit, UK and Swedish suppliers still offer the same price but now UK is a pain in the ass. So for example, I still can get VAT back, but I would need to pay customs tax which can vary from small to not so small depending on the goods and which I won't be able to claim back. So given the paperwork, worrying that something will bounce at the customs, delayed delivery and say 5% customs tax, I will just say fuck it and go to Swedish supplier which now is just 5% more expensive to me but order of magnitude easier to deal with. No offence, just business.
But if there will be some trade agreement with no customs tax, then I don't know what the point was to brexit in the first place because it will be Pyrrhic victory for UK. Need to apply to the same rules as before just without any saying anymore.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 19, 2016, 11:22:41 pm

Something else popped into my mind: how about CE when dealing with the UK in case of a Brexit? If the UK leaves the EU and I buy things from the UK I'll become the importer so I'm liable for any EMC and safety issues so basically I'd have to ask the supplier to go through a certification process and produce the paperwork instead of self-certification. The other way around is the same. And what will the UK regulations be?

What do you do about products you buy from the US?  CE is self-certification from our companies as well.

I think reciprocity is the word of the day.  If the remaining members of EU want to make life difficult for the UK, well, reciprocity can just as well shut the EU out of the UK.  I have always wondered why the US puts up with so much crap from the EU and retaliates so little.  I suspect it is because of the disconnect between US industry and US lawmakers.  All that crap about Microsoft having to distribute another company's browser.  What's that about?  Anybody could download the browser with a single use of Microsoft's browser.  But, no, Microsoft has to change their distribution CDs AND pay a huge fine.  What a crock!  $732 million fine for distributing their own browser.  Had I been Microsoft, I would have never sold another product in Europe.  They could all run Linux for all I care.  That ought to set them back a couple of decades!


Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 19, 2016, 11:29:57 pm
Still you can't deny the fact that it is more difficult to trade with a country which has a wildly fluctuating currency versus your own. I have some UK customers and suppliers and the fact they are using pounds makes doing business riskier because I can't tell how much I will make on a project exactly. If a Brexit increases the pound versus euro volatility doing business will be harder and there will probably be more tax paperwork to fill out as well if the UK exits from the EU. All in all I think a Brexit will be a step back for me.
By all means don't do business outside the Eurozone if you're that worried.
:palm: Why someone should believe in UK and not worry? Want to deal (read subsidize)  with UK supplier if it becomes easier/better to deal somewhere else? Say there is supplier in Sweden, now it's 10% more expensive than someone in UK. Given all other things being about the same sure I will sure choose the deal from UK. Then after brexit, UK and Swedish suppliers still offer the same price but now UK is a pain in the ass. So for example, I still can get VAT back, but I would need to pay customs tax which can vary from small to not so small depending on the goods and which I won't be able to claim back. So given the paperwork, worrying that something will bounce at the customs, delayed delivery and say 5% customs tax, I will just say fuck it and go to Swedish supplier which now is just 5% more expensive to me but order of magnitude easier to deal with. No offence, just business.
But if there will be some trade agreement with no customs tax, then I don't know what the point was to brexit in the first place because it will be Pyrrhic victory for UK. Need to apply to the same rules as before just without any saying anymore.

How did it work before the EU?  It'll probably be a lot like that.  Either the EU and UK will come to terms or they won't.  Somehow, the US, UK and EU have terms and they seem to be mostly workable.

Sure, being inside the EU will lead to buying from inside the EU.  But that's only part of the story!  The UK product will cost more due to tariffs but guess what?  The EU product will just rise in cost until it all equals out.  Nobody is going to get a bargain!  What possible motivation would a EU company have to keep their prices below the import price of the same UK product.  All other factors (quality, features, etc) being equal...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 19, 2016, 11:35:40 pm
Still you can't deny the fact that it is more difficult to trade with a country which has a wildly fluctuating currency versus your own. I have some UK customers and suppliers and the fact they are using pounds makes doing business riskier because I can't tell how much I will make on a project exactly. If a Brexit increases the pound versus euro volatility doing business will be harder and there will probably be more tax paperwork to fill out as well if the UK exits from the EU. All in all I think a Brexit will be a step back for me.

Wildly fluctuating, yes - but I don't expect the pound and the euro to fluctuate wildly.  They will find their relative levels and changes will tend to be slow and gradual in response to macro economic events.

It tends to be a much larger problem for long term purchases/investments, such as contracts for fuel purchases or partial payments for long lead-time projects.

But there are hedge mechanisms available for most all of that, and in the case of small business, currency conversions are trivial and if there are legitimate concerns about long-term volatility, stipulations to pay in local currency can be put in place.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 19, 2016, 11:43:16 pm
I have always wondered why the US puts up with so much crap from the EU and retaliates so little.
On this side of globe I see it completely opposite way. And don't get why we act as sockpuppets of US when it obviously is against our own interests. For example, US wanted to get rid of Gaddaffi and Assad. Well good for them (because they are far far away) but not for us because we are those who are nearby and now need deal with consequences. Or say Nulland Cookies in Ukraine. Then after that democratization of Ukrainian regime have gone haywire, sanctions against Russia and Retaliation sanctions from them. US basically forced EU to put those sanctions and that has bad impact only on EU and Russia but not on US, because US have not much of trade with Russia unlike us. Interesting what US would say if say Russia or China would start democratize Mexico or Canada under US border?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 19, 2016, 11:49:20 pm
What possible motivation would a EU company have to keep their prices below the import price of the same UK product.  All other factors (quality, features, etc) being equal...
50+ % of UK export goes into EU. UK is less than 10% of of EU export/import. So now think who have more possibilities to deal with someone else and internal competition as well.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 19, 2016, 11:51:21 pm
Except when Holland leaves EU too (I mean, they kick out the EU bureaucrats)
Imagine to have to deal with extra paperwork, banking costs and exhance rate fluctuations just to do some business with one of those remaining overpriced bigstate EU countries.

Banking costs are a non-issue.   Pay using PayPal and the currency is automatically converted.  Same if you pay by credit card.  Fee is no different than it is for other transactions, generally speaking.

As for paperwork, it's up to each country and within the control of each country to handle their paperwork burden.  It would be a fantastic opportunity for a nation like the UK to streamline their processes.  It's gotten better over the years, but it's not perfect.  Having said that, I ship stuff around the world and shipping to the UK or EU or Canada is only fractionally more difficult than shipping within the USA.  All that is required for postal shipment is a description, a value and a country of origin - 3 lines on an online form.

It does get more difficult for freight, UPS, high value and the like, but all of those hurdles are put in place by the receiving country and they are perfectly capable of trimming it down.

And trimming it down to the bare minimum should be a top priority if the UK does vote for leave the EU (and should be a priority for any country who wants to get ahead on international trade).
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 19, 2016, 11:57:00 pm
But if there will be some trade agreement with no customs tax, then I don't know what the point was to brexit in the first place because it will be Pyrrhic victory for UK. Need to apply to the same rules as before just without any saying anymore.

That's kind of the point - there doesn't need "everything else" that goes along with EU membership (open borders, immigrant immigration, subjugation to EU technocrats) in order to implement a free trade program.

Part of the selling point of the EU is that free trade is good.  If that's the case, then of course the EU would want to have free trade with the UK.  The only reason not to would be out of spite, and politics generally doesn't happen on the basis of spite (regardless of how it's threatened before the fact).  So the UK can leave and just implement virtually the same trade deal they had the moment before they left. 
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 20, 2016, 12:03:43 am
That's kind of the point - there doesn't need "everything else" that goes along with EU membership (open borders, immigrant immigration, subjugation to EU technocrats)
There are no open borders with UK in the first place. Also migration from EU is highly overrated either.
Quote
subjugation to EU technocrats
If there will be trade agreement even remotely similar to what is now, EU technocrats won't be gone anywhere, only that UK won't have any saying.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 20, 2016, 12:06:53 am
Banking costs are a non-issue.   Pay using PayPal and the currency is automatically converted.
Yeah and they will take their fair share of 7-10% (transaction fee which apperant for the seller + conversion which is apperant for the buyer) :-DD. Not suitable for big orders either, I can send the right currency in bank transfer too. Talking was about exchange rate fluctuations too BTW.
EDIT: in most cases expect at least 10% in total if the seller is not a big business with reduced fees. PayPal exchange rate is among the worst.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 20, 2016, 12:16:29 am
How did it work before the EU?  It'll probably be a lot like that.  Either the EU and UK will come to terms or they won't.  Somehow, the US, UK and EU have terms and they seem to be mostly workable.
Apparently not so well if UK decided to join the EU.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 20, 2016, 12:25:24 am


How did it work before the EU?  It'll probably be a lot like that.  Either the EU and UK will come to terms or they won't.  Somehow, the US, UK and EU have terms and they seem to be mostly workable.
Apparently not so well if UK decided to join the EU.

You need to revisit the promises and FUD from that time. Don't assume that the process then was somehow perfect.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: mtdoc on June 20, 2016, 01:25:26 am
With the British Pound jumping over 200 pips (a big move) against the US Dollar today (and US market futures also up)- the market seems to have decided that as of right of now, exit is low probability - despite opinion polls.  What does the market know that the people don't?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: ez24 on June 20, 2016, 03:13:25 am
I have always wondered why the US puts up with so much crap from the EU and retaliates so little.
On this side of globe I see it completely opposite way. And don't get why we act as sockpuppets of US when it obviously is against our own interests. For example, US wanted to get rid of Gaddaffi and Assad. Well good for them (because they are far far away) but not for us because we are those who are nearby and now need deal with consequences. Or say Nulland Cookies in Ukraine. Then after that democratization of Ukrainian regime have gone haywire, sanctions against Russia and Retaliation sanctions from them. US basically forced EU to put those sanctions and that has bad impact only on EU and Russia but not on US, because US have not much of trade with Russia unlike us. Interesting what US would say if say Russia or China would start democratize Mexico or Canada under US border?

Because of the many many US screw ups, if the US says stay then, to me, they should leave. 
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 20, 2016, 03:42:00 am
There are no open borders with UK in the first place. Also migration from EU is highly overrated either.

The UK is not part of the schengen agreement, but citizens of EU countries do have the right to come/go from the UK to work and live at will.  Substantially more EU citizens go to the UK than go out of the UK.

Quote
If there will be trade agreement even remotely similar to what is now, EU technocrats won't be gone anywhere, only that UK won't have any saying.

Of course they will.  Right now, the UK is one voice of many when it comes to technocrats.  In a post-Brexit trade negotiation, they are one voice of two at the table.  As the second largest economy of the EU, it's not like the EU can afford to tell Britain to piss off, nor would they want to.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 20, 2016, 03:48:30 am
Yeah and they will take their fair share of 7-10% (transaction fee which apperant for the seller + conversion which is apperant for the buyer) :-DD. Not suitable for big orders either, I can send the right currency in bank transfer too. Talking was about exchange rate fluctuations too BTW.
EDIT: in most cases expect at least 10% in total if the seller is not a big business with reduced fees. PayPal exchange rate is among the worst.

No, they do not take 7-10%.  They add a margin on top of the interbank rate, but you can also elect to pay in the seller's currency, which means your bank is the one handling the currency conversion instead of PayPal.

But it's false to chalk this up as a Brexit issue because Britain already uses a different currency.  So in that respect, nothing will change other than possibly the GBP/Euro rate would be more volatile - but that's just speculation.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on June 20, 2016, 05:09:44 am
OK - Here's a question that may be relevant to the rest of the world....

How will Britain's exiting from or staying in the EU affect other non-EU countries?

As an example - how might it affect exchange rates between the USA and Australia?  Do I, as an Aussie, buy stuff from the USA now ... or wait until later?


The global community and global economy are quite significant these days - far more so than 100 years ago.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on June 20, 2016, 06:15:41 am
With the British Pound jumping over 200 pips (a big move) against the US Dollar today (and US market futures also up)- the market seems to have decided that as of right of now, exit is low probability - despite opinion polls.  What does the market know that the people don't?

A: nothing.

Q: Why nothing?
A: You misunderstand of the markets. They don't bet on what they think will happen in the economy. They bet on what they think other market traders think will happen in the economy.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: mtdoc on June 20, 2016, 06:43:05 am
With the British Pound jumping over 200 pips (a big move) against the US Dollar today (and US market futures also up)- the market seems to have decided that as of right of now, exit is low probability - despite opinion polls.  What does the market know that the people don't?

A: nothing.

Q: Why nothing?
A: You misunderstand of the markets. They don't bet on what they think will happen in the economy. They bet on what they think other market traders think will happen in the economy.

Perhaps I should have worded it differently. After years of active trading - making and losing many thousands - i know as well and anyone that the market is not always right.  But the fact remains that the divergence between the recent opinion polls and the market's change since the Cox murder is curious and unexplained. Obviously we'll know more soon.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: NivagSwerdna on June 20, 2016, 07:11:35 am
But the fact remains that the divergence between the recent opinion polls and the market's change since the Cox murder is curious and unexplained.
Not really. Overall volatility is very high, e.g. CDS Spread on UK debt is at levels twice it was in January.  BrExit or BrRemain is a discontinuity, there will be wild swings until it becomes a certainty.
Sadly, I think the actions of one man have provided a back-drop that will be exploited to paint any BrExit supporter as 'a hater', 'xenophobic', etc and although that will not change the core support it will be enough to swing the undecided voter.  What is more ironic is that it provides a boost to the group that did their utmost to suppress freedom of speech at the recent thames demo.   That's politics/history I guess  |O
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 20, 2016, 07:33:43 am

Something else popped into my mind: how about CE when dealing with the UK in case of a Brexit? If the UK leaves the EU and I buy things from the UK I'll become the importer so I'm liable for any EMC and safety issues so basically I'd have to ask the supplier to go through a certification process and produce the paperwork instead of self-certification. The other way around is the same. And what will the UK regulations be?
What do you do about products you buy from the US?  CE is self-certification from our companies as well.
With products from outside the EU the importer becomes liable so a smart importer makes sure he gets documents from a qualified testing facility which proof the product has been tested. So in general the self-certification is a no-go for imported stuff.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 20, 2016, 07:36:46 am
Still you can't deny the fact that it is more difficult to trade with a country which has a wildly fluctuating currency versus your own. I have some UK customers and suppliers and the fact they are using pounds makes doing business riskier because I can't tell how much I will make on a project exactly. If a Brexit increases the pound versus euro volatility doing business will be harder and there will probably be more tax paperwork to fill out as well if the UK exits from the EU. All in all I think a Brexit will be a step back for me.
Wildly fluctuating, yes - but I don't expect the pound and the euro to fluctuate wildly.  They will find their relative levels and changes will tend to be slow and gradual in response to macro economic events.
Not really. I have seen the euro/pound move wildly (20% or so) over the timeframe of just a few months. Just look at the graphs of the exchange rate!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 20, 2016, 07:39:23 am
Except when Holland leaves EU too (I mean, they kick out the EU bureaucrats)
Imagine to have to deal with extra paperwork, banking costs and exhance rate fluctuations just to do some business with one of those remaining overpriced bigstate EU countries.
Banking costs are a non-issue.   Pay using PayPal and the currency is automatically converted.  Same if you pay by credit card.  Fee is no different than it is for other transactions, generally speaking.
Using Paypal for a business transaction of several $k ???  :palm: The piss-poor exchange rate Paypal offers makes the cost of a wire transfer look like peanuts in comparison.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on June 20, 2016, 09:25:22 am
I am wishing for a brexit just so I can see the action  :popcorn:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 20, 2016, 04:52:54 pm
Banking costs are a non-issue.   Pay using PayPal and the currency is automatically converted.  Same if you pay by credit card.  Fee is no different than it is for other transactions, generally speaking.
If you enter into an inter-currency transaction where an automatic conversion is applied then you will, to one degree or another, get fleeced. Either by the transaction charge  or by an overly large dealing spread on the conversion or possibly both.

The banks remain less than transparent on this one although it is a bit better than it used to be as it is now possible to get something much closer to the market rate on relatively small amounts of money through specialist brokers or alternative outfits such as TransferWise.

But for the odd, infrequent, transaction the actual difference is going to be pretty small and the convenience likely to be worth it. However if you are doing it regularly then the best way is to establish an account in the "other" currency and transfer funds to it via a broker. That also has the advantage of fixing the rate and also dampening out short term fluctuations in rates.

A: You misunderstand of the markets. They don't bet on what they think will happen in the economy. They bet on what they think other market traders think will happen in the economy.
Well, not exactly. For one thing they are mostly all using the same models and the same data so it amounts to much the same thing.

I think the reality is somewhat more complex - nothing gets a trader fired up more than thinking they have a better handle on future market movements than their compatriots so I think I would say that a trader bets not only on what s/he thinks the market will do but also on the difference between that and what s/he thinks the other traders think that the market will do.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 20, 2016, 05:08:20 pm
The betting odds for Leave got even lower at 10/3 (was 9/4).

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/eu-referendum/referendum-on-eu-membership-result (http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/eu-referendum/referendum-on-eu-membership-result)

If you are for Remain, it's time to bet on Leave, to hedge your disappointment in case Leave wins.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: amiq on June 20, 2016, 05:21:51 pm
Project fear on both sides, I supose both camps tried to use the Unionist tactics from the Scottish referendum.  The majority of the English participents  in this thread are belching win'.

This is a short summary of the consequences of leaving from Professor Michael Dougan of the University of Liverpool.
https://youtu.be/AQanMs2Pskc

And a short guide to the structure of the EU from Scotland in Europe.
https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/alynsmith/pages/2336/attachments/original/1464942911/WBB-download.pdf

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 20, 2016, 07:25:10 pm
That's a very interesting video.  He did make the point that access to the single market brought along the requirement for free movement of people from countries in the EU.  I suspect that this is a sticking point for many.  If we had such a requirement in the US, all of South America and Mexico would be vacant.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 20, 2016, 08:00:00 pm
That's a very interesting video.  He did make the point that access to the single market brought along the requirement for free movement of people from countries in the EU.  I suspect that this is a sticking point for many.  If we had such a requirement in the US, all of South America and Mexico would be vacant.

That's one of the reasons that I thought it was so patronising of Obama to come to the UK and shpiel on about how good the EU is.  There is no way on earth that the US would agree to have open boarders with Mexico, free movement across the whole continent, and their laws decided upon in Toronto and their supreme court overruled by a court in Rio.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 20, 2016, 08:09:25 pm
I don't know why Obama got into the BREXIT discussion.  Nobody in the UK is going to change their point of view based on his position.  This is strictly an internal matter for the people of the UK to decide.  Outsiders, me included, have no standing.

It was good to watch an educated person describe the issues.  There are many, no doubt.  But if we had a requirement for free movement here in the US, I know how I would vote!  I also noticed he glossed over benefits due upon entry.  I think that would be a hard sell around here.  In fact, we are fighting over it here in California where the legislature has every intention of extending full medical benefits to all of our illegal aliens.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 20, 2016, 08:12:50 pm
That's a very interesting video.  He did make the point that access to the single market brought along the requirement for free movement of people from countries in the EU.  I suspect that this is a sticking point for many.  If we had such a requirement in the US, all of South America and Mexico would be vacant.
Wrong conclusion. For a single market to work you'd need to set standards to become a member of that single market like the EU does.
The US actually has far far less stricter immigration policies than the EU. If you are in the EU illegally you will be deported even if you have lived and worked in the EU for over a decade. No green card lotteries or loopholes to get a permanent stay & work permit. Before you are allowed to enter most EU countries you'll need to learn the local language of the country you want to live in before you arrive and you'll need to have a means to support yourself (or a spouse with a reasonable salary).
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rolycat on June 20, 2016, 08:23:22 pm
For a rather less serious video, John Oliver and his US show Last Week Tonight have an amusing take on the debate, which closes with a rousing rendition of his song "F**k the European Union":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAgKHSNqxa8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAgKHSNqxa8)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: kaz911 on June 20, 2016, 08:55:11 pm
That's a very interesting video.  He did make the point that access to the single market brought along the requirement for free movement of people from countries in the EU.  I suspect that this is a sticking point for many.  If we had such a requirement in the US, all of South America and Mexico would be vacant.
Wrong conclusion. For a single market to work you'd need to set standards to become a member of that single market like the EU does.
The US actually has far far less stricter immigration policies than the EU. If you are in the EU illegally you will be deported even if you have lived and worked in the EU for over a decade. No green card lotteries or loopholes to get a permanent stay & work permit. Before you are allowed to enter most EU countries you'll need to learn the local language of the country you want to live in before you arrive and you'll need to have a means to support yourself (or a spouse with a reasonable salary).

that is not quite true. You do not need to learn the language in most countries UNLESS you want to become a CITIZEN. There is no requirement to learn BEFORE you arrive. And the requirement is usually linked to benefits - so if you do NOT learn the language - the benefits issued at lower rates or not at all.  All countries incl the US requires you to have enough money to support yourself upon entry. For the US you also need a return ticket and I think minimum $50 per day you plan to stay.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 20, 2016, 08:59:36 pm
. Before you are allowed to enter most EU countries you'll need to learn the local language of the country you want to live in before you arrive and you'll need to have a means to support yourself (or a spouse with a reasonable salary).

Bollocks.  :palm:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 20, 2016, 09:35:12 pm
Project fear on both sides, I supose both camps tried to use the Unionist tactics from the Scottish referendum.  The majority of the English participents  in this thread are belching win'.

This is a short summary of the consequences of leaving from Professor Michael Dougan of the University of Liverpool.
https://youtu.be/AQanMs2Pskc

And a short guide to the structure of the EU from Scotland in Europe.
https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/alynsmith/pages/2336/attachments/original/1464942911/WBB-download.pdf

Are these two sources supposed to be neutral?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 20, 2016, 09:47:10 pm
It was good to watch an educated person describe the issues.  There are many, no doubt.  But if we had a requirement for free movement here in the US, I know how I would vote!

If I lived in the North of the US I would too ... if you can't get useful borders on a federal level then state level is better than nothing.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 20, 2016, 09:57:54 pm
Are these two sources supposed to be neutral?

The John Oliver clip was far more entertaining!  Not as entertaining as the actual vote but pretty funny.  The theme song is outstanding!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 20, 2016, 10:23:59 pm
That's a very interesting video.  He did make the point that access to the single market brought along the requirement for free movement of people from countries in the EU.  I suspect that this is a sticking point for many.  If we had such a requirement in the US, all of South America and Mexico would be vacant.
Wrong conclusion. For a single market to work you'd need to set standards to become a member of that single market like the EU does.
The US actually has far far less stricter immigration policies than the EU. If you are in the EU illegally you will be deported even if you have lived and worked in the EU for over a decade. No green card lotteries or loopholes to get a permanent stay & work permit. Before you are allowed to enter most EU countries you'll need to learn the local language of the country you want to live in before you arrive and you'll need to have a means to support yourself (or a spouse with a reasonable salary).
that is not quite true. You do not need to learn the language in most countries UNLESS you want to become a CITIZEN.
That was what we where talking about here: immigration, not a holiday or another form of short term stay!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: kaz911 on June 20, 2016, 11:00:35 pm
That's a very interesting video.  He did make the point that access to the single market brought along the requirement for free movement of people from countries in the EU.  I suspect that this is a sticking point for many.  If we had such a requirement in the US, all of South America and Mexico would be vacant.
Wrong conclusion. For a single market to work you'd need to set standards to become a member of that single market like the EU does.
The US actually has far far less stricter immigration policies than the EU. If you are in the EU illegally you will be deported even if you have lived and worked in the EU for over a decade. No green card lotteries or loopholes to get a permanent stay & work permit. Before you are allowed to enter most EU countries you'll need to learn the local language of the country you want to live in before you arrive and you'll need to have a means to support yourself (or a spouse with a reasonable salary).
that is not quite true. You do not need to learn the language in most countries UNLESS you want to become a CITIZEN.
That was what we where talking about here: immigration, not a holiday or another form of short term stay!

Just because you immigrate - you do not need to become a citizen! And you do not need to learn the language before you arrive. Many countries will pay... for "immigrants" to do language courses. So for refugees - they get paid a "salary" for showing up and learning local language.

And road to citizenship in most EU countries is not easy apart from some (mostly) former Eastern European states are actively "selling" EU passports for investment into their economies. Spain does also sell "access" but so far only Spanish visa's - not passports.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on June 20, 2016, 11:19:03 pm
Two years ago the Swiss had an anti-immigration referendum, which was passed by 50.3% of the vote.

Now that it is just about to come into force and the consequences are understood, only 21% still want it. That's right, the majority of the people that voted in favour now want to change their mind.

FFI, see https://www.technologyreview.com/s/601721/why-scientists-are-so-worried-about-brexit/ (https://www.technologyreview.com/s/601721/why-scientists-are-so-worried-about-brexit/) and note that the URL hints why it is relevant to electronics. Note that although Switzerland != UK, the reasons and consequences will largely apply to the UK.

Let's make new mistakes, not repeat other people's mistakes.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 21, 2016, 12:27:37 am
That's one of the reasons that I thought it was so patronising of Obama to come to the UK and shpiel on about how good the EU is.

Intervention in internal matters goes both ways

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/05/uks-cameron-trumps-muslim-immigration-ban-very-dangerous-thing-to-say (https://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/05/uks-cameron-trumps-muslim-immigration-ban-very-dangerous-thing-to-say)

There is no way on earth that the US would agree to have open boarders with Mexico, free movement across the whole continent, and their laws decided upon in Toronto and their supreme court overruled by a court in Rio.

Don't be so sure. Obama and the likes provide incentive and protection to illegals here. Definitely not America first.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 21, 2016, 12:32:22 am
Wildly fluctuating, yes - but I don't expect the pound and the euro to fluctuate wildly.  They will find their relative levels and changes will tend to be slow and gradual in response to macro economic events.
Not really. I have seen the euro/pound move wildly (20% or so) over the timeframe of just a few months. Just look at the graphs of the exchange rate!

Moves of 20% over a matter of months aren't wild fluctuations.  That's normal currency exchange variation that you see between any stable currencies like pounds, dollars, euros, yen, etc.  And these fluctuations have existed for as long as the Euro has existed, so it's not something new that's going to happen that will cause big problems for EU<->UK transactions.  It will be the same old, same old.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 21, 2016, 12:37:59 am
Except when Holland leaves EU too (I mean, they kick out the EU bureaucrats)
Imagine to have to deal with extra paperwork, banking costs and exhance rate fluctuations just to do some business with one of those remaining overpriced bigstate EU countries.
Banking costs are a non-issue.   Pay using PayPal and the currency is automatically converted.  Same if you pay by credit card.  Fee is no different than it is for other transactions, generally speaking.
Using Paypal for a business transaction of several $k ???  :palm: The piss-poor exchange rate Paypal offers makes the cost of a wire transfer look like peanuts in comparison.

You don't have to let PayPal do the conversion.  You can use PayPal as the mechanism for transfer allowing you to use any credit or debit card you like, paying in the receivers local currency, and getting the benefits of PayPal while letting your chosen bank do the currency transfer.

Again, this is not something unique to a Brexit as these things have been going on for years and years.  It's just a non-issue.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 21, 2016, 11:31:20 am
Except when Holland leaves EU too (I mean, they kick out the EU bureaucrats)
Imagine to have to deal with extra paperwork, banking costs and exhance rate fluctuations just to do some business with one of those remaining overpriced bigstate EU countries.
Banking costs are a non-issue.   Pay using PayPal and the currency is automatically converted.  Same if you pay by credit card.  Fee is no different than it is for other transactions, generally speaking.
Using Paypal for a business transaction of several $k ???  :palm: The piss-poor exchange rate Paypal offers makes the cost of a wire transfer look like peanuts in comparison.

You don't have to let PayPal do the conversion.  You can use PayPal as the mechanism for transfer allowing you to use any credit or debit card you like, paying in the receivers local currency, and getting the benefits of PayPal while letting your chosen bank do the currency transfer.
Now you are moving the goal posts. First you say to use Paypal and have them convert the currency and then you say let your bank do the conversion. That is a great idea  :palm: NOT! First you pay Paypal transaction fees and then currency conversion fees to your bank. The added value of Paypal is zero in this situation. A bank to bank wire transfer is the simplest and cheapest solution compared to using Paypal or a credit-card.
Quote
Again, this is not something unique to a Brexit as these things have been going on for years and years.  It's just a non-issue.
If it where a non-issue then the euro would not have been in use nowadays. Also in many industries (like oil) they use one currency to make life easier. Now again try to explain why having different currencies is a non-issue. Also a 20% fluctuation on a 100k euro project means being 20k euro too expensive or earning 20k euro less.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 21, 2016, 01:00:48 pm
Your point is moot. We're not part of the Eurozone and never have been thank $deity.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 21, 2016, 01:07:23 pm
Your point is moot. We're not part of the Eurozone and never have been thank $deity.
Except for 2008 the EU as a whole has outperformed the UK significantly when it comes to economic growth since 1992 until now. Who is -obviously- doing something wrong here? IMHO the people in the UK are paying a hefty price for a bit of pride.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 21, 2016, 01:19:25 pm
It has nothing to do with pride.

Tell that to the Greeks, Spanish, Italians, Irish and Portuguese.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 21, 2016, 01:30:24 pm
IMHO the people in the UK are paying a hefty price for a bit of pride.

... or the people in the Nederland have no pride, giving away the independence of their country for a quick gain.

Different people, different values and priorities, you can't project your own values on other. Let them decide how they see future of their country.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 21, 2016, 01:31:23 pm
Your point is moot. We're not part of the Eurozone and never have been thank $deity.
Except for 2008 the EU as a whole has outperformed the UK significantly when it comes to economic growth since 1992 until now. Who is -obviously- doing something wrong here? IMHO the people in the UK are paying a hefty price for a bit of pride.

Everyone took a hit 2008-2009, the UK briefly dipped below the Eurozone early in the recovery but had been outperforming the Eurozone and is once again outperforming the Eurozone.

(https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/uk-us-eurozone.png)

However what I worry about is this

(http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/manufacturing-2000-2012-500x373.png)

Manufacturing took a huge hit in 2008-9 and really has not recovered.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on June 21, 2016, 01:43:39 pm
... In Germany the restaurants and hotels are much cheaper than in the rest of West Europe.
Like in: Double the price than in other parts of West Europe.
At least, my experience till 2010, in developed parts of Germany, parts with de-facto employment opportunities.

With products from outside the EU the importer becomes liable so a smart importer makes sure he gets documents from a qualified testing facility which proof the product has been tested. So in general the self-certification is a no-go for imported stuff.
With products from inside EU the buyer is responsible too. No difference.

Something else popped into my mind: how about CE when dealing with the UK in case of a Brexit?...
Your mind invoked another unnecessary unexisting problem.
Manufacturer makes product, chooses to certify CE or chooses to not certify and sell it with a workaround as experimental of not-working.
Buyer buys with CE to be ready to sell/integrate or without CE and does everything himself.

No difference if the buyer buys it in Germany of Serbia.
No diference if the manufacturer sells it from Germany or Serbia.
 
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 21, 2016, 01:57:50 pm
"I fell like a second-class citizen in my own country"

That is the title of a front page article from nytimes today on brexit. And that pretty sums up a lot of people feel in Manny Western countries right now.

The article is really nice to read as it is a classic example of super journalism. Something we haven't seen from the media, especially nytimes, for a long long time. Very well done.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on June 21, 2016, 02:07:53 pm
"I fell like a second-class citizen in my own country"
... And that pretty sums up a lot of people feel in Manny Western countries right now.

Same here. We are currently invaded by a hostile jew-hating gay-hating army, just like the years the Nazi army invaded our territory.
That army is 90% male and healty, just like the Nazi army.
They take goods and services without paying, helped by the local goverments, just like in 1939/1940.
In our community, local politicians and bureaucrats held a meeting to "inform" the population, they were escorted by armed police. Just like 1939/1940.
Local Nazi crimes were talked about as incidents, criticising them could cost your job, collaborating helped an indicvidual rising on the picking order, had many benefits.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 21, 2016, 02:12:22 pm
Everyone took a hit 2008-2009, the UK briefly dipped below the Eurozone early in the recovery but had been outperforming the Eurozone and is once again outperforming the Eurozone.
(https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/uk-us-eurozone.png)
Yeah, it seems I got the wrong charts from http://www.tradingeconomics.com/ (http://www.tradingeconomics.com/)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 21, 2016, 02:12:28 pm
The Single Currency typifies the folly of those who run the EU.  I'm not an economist, merely a technician, but even to me it is blindingly obvious that one currency, with one central bank, one interest rate (and thus one and only one economic policy) could never work across countries with economies as different as Germany and Greece, the Netherlands and Cyprus, etc etc.  The countries with weaker economies were essentially bribed with huge EU grants, subsidies and loans, but the reality of the situation soon showed (I have seen this first hand in Ireland), and these countries were plunged into debt and recession.

This economic folly alone shows that the EU is either completely incompetent, or puts its goal of a United States of Europe at any cost above the economic practicalities of their policies.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 21, 2016, 02:15:21 pm
Your mind invoked another unnecessary unexisting problem.
Manufacturer makes product, chooses to certify CE or chooses to not certify and sell it with a workaround as experimental of not-working.
Buyer buys with CE to be ready to sell/integrate or without CE and does everything himself.

No difference if the buyer buys it in Germany of Serbia.
No diference if the manufacturer sells it from Germany or Serbia.
Now explain that to the lawyers in case your product caused a problem with a liability claim consisting of 7 figures. They have a shortage of arms and legs to do this  :palm:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: chris_leyson on June 21, 2016, 02:16:14 pm
Quote
Something else popped into my mind: how about CE when dealing with the UK in case of a Brexit?
I don't think it would be as issue, even if we left it would make sense to adhere to the harmonized EU standards for chemical,. medical, electrical, machinery and all the rest. Anyone exporting to Europe would have to follow these standards, there may be some exceptions and that is where import controls or the lack of them come into play, it's our fault for letting this stuff get into the country not the EU. Don't forget a hell of a lot of work has gone into harmonizing the various European standards over the last 40 years, one o the better aspects of the EU.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 21, 2016, 02:21:10 pm
Your point is moot. We're not part of the Eurozone and never have been thank $deity.
Except for 2008 the EU as a whole has outperformed the UK significantly when it comes to economic growth since 1992 until now. Who is -obviously- doing something wrong here? IMHO the people in the UK are paying a hefty price for a bit of pride.

Everyone took a hit 2008-2009, the UK briefly dipped below the Eurozone early in the recovery but had been outperforming the Eurozone and is once again outperforming the Eurozone.

(https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/uk-us-eurozone.png)

However what I worry about is this

(http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/manufacturing-2000-2012-500x373.png)

Manufacturing took a huge hit in 2008-9 and really has not recovered.

More up to date GDP growth here http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-growth (http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-growth) and here http://www.tradingeconomics.com/euro-area/gdp-growth (http://www.tradingeconomics.com/euro-area/gdp-growth)

Probably best not mention Eurozone youth unemployment http://www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/ (http://www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/) and for $deity sake don't, whatever you do, look at the figures for the Southern EU states.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 21, 2016, 02:52:05 pm
Probably best not mention Eurozone youth unemployment

Eek, France is worse than expected.
I reckon their employment laws need looking at, overly protective from what I gather.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 21, 2016, 03:01:29 pm
The Single Currency typifies the folly of those who run the EU.  I'm not an economist, merely a technician, but even to me it is blindingly obvious that one currency, with one central bank, one interest rate (and thus one and only one economic policy) could never work across countries with economies as different as Germany and Greece.
You have to put that into perspective: In hindsight it is very obvious Greece should never have been allowed to use the euro in the first place. It wouldn't surprise me if Greece stops using the euro in the next couple of years because their problems are still huge.

Still using a single currency makes doing business a lot easier by eliminating risk and reducing costs but you have to interlink some economical aspects of the countries involved but that shouldn't be a problem for countries which are run well (unlike Greece). An idea isn't bad just because it is poorly executed.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 21, 2016, 03:04:11 pm
Probably best not mention Eurozone youth unemployment http://www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/ (http://www.statista.com/statistics/266228/youth-unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/) and for $deity sake don't, whatever you do, look at the figures for the Southern EU states.

Sssssshhhhhhhh!  Be quiet!  The EU (and particularly the Euro) have been a huge success for those countries!  The experts in Brussels keep telling us so!  They don't bother to ask people in said countries how the Euro project has actually worked out for them of course...


Anyway, as someone has mentioned, whether we leave or not, the Eurozone will implode in the next 5 years, leading to a breakup of the EU anyway...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 21, 2016, 03:05:29 pm
The Single Currency typifies the folly of those who run the EU.  I'm not an economist, merely a technician, but even to me it is blindingly obvious that one currency, with one central bank, one interest rate (and thus one and only one economic policy) could never work across countries with economies as different as Germany and Greece.

One might draw parallels with the US which has one currency, one economic policy, one interest rate and 50 states with GDP's per capita which range from over $180,000 (OK, DC is an outlier) to under $36,000 - how do they manage?

Quote
The countries with weaker economies were essentially bribed with huge EU grants, subsidies and loans, but the reality of the situation soon showed (I have seen this first hand in Ireland), and these countries were plunged into debt and recession.
The EU itself can't really afford "huge grants, subsidies and loans", its budget isn't actually that large - in very round figures about €150 billion.

Greece got into trouble, then couldn't get out the usual way by devaluing its currency (and thus its debt).

I would agree, though, that for the Euro to survive closer political integration is likely to be needed which might not be in the UK's interest - at the moment, however, we are able to stand back from that.


More up to date GDP growth here http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-growth (http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/gdp-growth) and here http://www.tradingeconomics.com/euro-area/gdp-growth (http://www.tradingeconomics.com/euro-area/gdp-growth)

Which supports the fact that the UK is currently doing better than the eurozone. Slightly hard to put the two side by side though so this might make things clearer (note different vertical scales):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/uk-forum-members-brexit/?action=dlattach;attach=235138;image)

The real question though is not whether the UK is currently outperforming the EU but whether it will continue to do so if we leave. I am inclined to think not and that Michael Dougan's point is important - that a lot of countries use us as a gateway to the EU. This is, of course, very good for us but we have to be clear that we need to be a member of the EU to play that role.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 21, 2016, 03:09:10 pm
Watch the video from the professor from Liverpool again, the UK might be doing better because they are part of the eurozone.
Now noone knows what is going to happen after a Brexit but chances are that economic growth might plummet.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 21, 2016, 03:24:49 pm
"chances are that economic growth might plummet."

Generally consensus is for a 2 to 3 percent declined, with some extreme figures on the downside.

Long term numbers are hard to tell. But economics really isn't what's driviv this. It is thee displeasure with the political systems as well as existential concerns, both for the people and for their culture and identify. IE this is an issue that no amount of money can solve.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 21, 2016, 03:48:19 pm
"chances are that economic growth might plummet."

Generally consensus is for a 2 to 3 percent declined, with some extreme figures on the downside.

Long term numbers are hard to tell. But economics really isn't what's driviv this. It is thee displeasure with the political systems as well as existential concerns, both for the people and for their culture and identify. IE this is an issue that no amount of money can solve.
Economics is and certainly should be part of the debate, but I agree that it is not the whole picture.

I suspect that it is a much bigger factor in the decision making process of better off and better educated people who, on the whole, favour remaining in the EU.

Amongst the red-top reading classes I think the issue of immigration is likely to be higher especially with the "taking our jobs, houses, NHS and school places" propaganda that UKIP likes to push.

These are real issues, of course, but have varying degrees of b**g*r all to do with us being in the EU.

Jobs - lack of UK investment in appropriate training and development - nothing to do with membership of the EU except that they are supplying workers that we need.
NHS - government policy ultimately to privatise the service - nothing to do with membership of EU and promises by "leave" campaigners unlikely to be realised.
Schools - OK, yes, extra pressure from immigrant groups, especially in London but lack of investment in infrastructure given that the population is growing anyway is nothing to do with membership of the EU.
Houses - possibly increased pressure from migrant groups but possibly not. Anyway 30 years of underinvestment by the government has nothing to do with EU membership.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 21, 2016, 04:05:36 pm
Now you are moving the goal posts. First you say to use Paypal and have them convert the currency and then you say let your bank do the conversion. That is a great idea  :palm: NOT! First you pay Paypal transaction fees and then currency conversion fees to your bank. The added value of Paypal is zero in this situation. A bank to bank wire transfer is the simplest and cheapest solution compared to using Paypal or a credit-card.

You're being obstinate.

PayPal is a convenient method to invoice someone and to pay someone, regardless of the location of the seller and the buyer.

PayPal also will do the currency conversion if you choose.  It is trivial to let your bank do the currency conversion (you simply select the button marked "pay in the receivers currency").  You still get the convenience of PayPal.  You're suggesting that the buyer needs to jump through additional hoops - they don't.  They select a radio button during the checkout process.  That doesn't negate the other benefits of PayPal. 

The point is that buying things from foreign countries with differing currencies is a non-issue.  It's been a non-issue for years.  We are not talking about sending tens of thousands of Euros or Pounds in which case there are other methods which have also been in place for years.  We are talking about the impact to the average resident of the UK leaving the EU.  Suggesting that transactions will be more complicated in this case simply isn't accurate.


Quote
If it where a non-issue then the euro would not have been in use nowadays. Also in many industries (like oil) they use one currency to make life easier. Now again try to explain why having different currencies is a non-issue. Also a 20% fluctuation on a 100k euro project means being 20k euro too expensive or earning 20k euro less.

The implementation of the Euro has at least as much to do with monetary policy as it has to do with transaction ease.  And you're still ignoring the point that the UK *already* has their own currency and always has.  You're doggedly pursuing this point of debate when it represents exactly nothing different post-Brexit as pre-Brexit. 

The only possible change is the pound and euro would possibly fluctuate more than they do with the UK being part of the EU, but that's speculation and not really rooted in fact, IMO - after all, the UK has it's own economy, parliament and society and that won't change.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 21, 2016, 04:46:50 pm
However what I worry about is this

(http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/manufacturing-2000-2012-500x373.png)

Manufacturing took a huge hit in 2008-9 and really has not recovered.

I know you're not in favor of an exit, but having more control over their own future and laws ought to allow the Brits to set up a favorable manufacturing infrastructure (financial, logistical, labor) that would make the nation an outstanding choice for companies looking to manufacture high-end goods for fast and easy transport to the mainland.

I'd say the biggest challenge for the UK - and the biggest opportunity - if they do exit is to implement such a favorable competitive environment as compared to the EU.

It's definitely doable, but it would be hard to implement with all the various factions jockeying for power and control. 
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on June 21, 2016, 05:11:28 pm
...but having more control over their own future and laws ought to allow the Brits to set up a favorable manufacturing infrastructure (financial, logistical, labor) that would make the nation an outstanding choice for companies looking to manufacture high-end goods for fast and easy transport to the mainland.

But that wouldn't happen. In order to get favourable trade agreements, we would have to agree to the Ts&Cs that "the other side" follows, putting us in the same boat as them. That's the Swiss experience based on their 2014 "anti-immigration" referendum, https://www.technologyreview.com/s/601721/why-scientists-are-so-worried-about-brexit/ (https://www.technologyreview.com/s/601721/why-scientists-are-so-worried-about-brexit/)

Start by considering the TTIP :(
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 21, 2016, 05:13:11 pm
I know you're not in favor of an exit, but having more control over their own future and laws ought to allow the Brits to set up a favorable manufacturing infrastructure (financial, logistical, labor) that would make the nation an outstanding choice for companies looking to manufacture high-end goods for fast and easy transport to the mainland.
Watch the video of the professor from Liverpool, that is not going to happen after a Brexit. Goods can not be imported as is without hassle to the mainland, paperwork, customs, taxes, laws, you name it.
And this is already going on, a blueray sent from London, no problem. A blueray sent from the canal islands like Jersey, two weeks delay and customs charge.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 21, 2016, 05:21:34 pm
The Single Currency typifies the folly of those who run the EU.  I'm not an economist, merely a technician, but even to me it is blindingly obvious that one currency, with one central bank, one interest rate (and thus one and only one economic policy) could never work across countries with economies as different as Germany and Greece, the Netherlands and Cyprus, etc etc.  The countries with weaker economies were essentially bribed with huge EU grants, subsidies and loans, but the reality of the situation soon showed (I have seen this first hand in Ireland), and these countries were plunged into debt and recession.

This economic folly alone shows that the EU is either completely incompetent, or puts its goal of a United States of Europe at any cost above the economic practicalities of their policies.

I think the (foolish) belief was that a monetary policy could be enacted that would provide EU-wide stability and would even out the peaks and valleys, so that if one country was having difficulty, another would be able to pitch in to help.

Like Germany bailing out Greece.

But that doesn't really work unless the financial decision making is centralized too - there's not much to stop (for example) Greece from voting themselves largess, and not having to really worry about footing the bill.  I think an unexpected consequence is sort of a double negative in that countries like Germany necessarily have to pick up the tab for someone like Greece causing resentment from the German side - but that also leads to resentment from the Greeks who feel like they're under the thumb of Germany and their own wealth was taken and used to bail them out.

Germany has gotten a mixed bag - if they had kept the Deutchemark, it would be so highly valued compared to the Euro that their exports would suffer. 

And that really underscores the necessary ultimate goal and result of the EU.  Either administration MUST become much more centralized, which means countries lose much or most of their power and identity, or it has to fall apart.  Adding somewhere like Turkey into the mix would really throw everything for a loop.

I think it's a ultimately a binary choice between a one-EU government or reversing back to a trading authority only, and I don't see any way the former will ever happen.  The EU has only faced one real test in the 2008 financial crisis where it performed pretty badly.  Wait until it faces war, or economic implosion in a member country or something like that - it will crumble.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 21, 2016, 05:38:29 pm
Adding somewhere like Turkey into the mix would really throw everything for a loop.
Forget about Turkey becoming part of the EU within the next 20 years. Turkey's dictator just set the clock back 30 years. Also Greece was a mistake the EU is likely not to make again.

I don't understand why you think the EU will suddenly fall apart. It has been there in one form or another since 1957. The EU is not some afterthought that was put in place during the last decade.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on June 21, 2016, 05:42:17 pm
Now explain that to the lawyers in case your product caused a problem with a liability claim consisting of 7 figures. They have a shortage of arms and legs to do this  :palm:
No difference exists in explaining that to your lawyer for your product, with parts bought inside/outside EU.
There is no difference when you succesfully checked/traced the CE mark.
There is no difference when you unsuccesfully checked the CE mark.
There is no difference when in both situations you ignored the absence of a CE mark.

And please don't start those populist simplistic :palm: things when you refuse to explain your insights and jump to another generalising quote.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on June 21, 2016, 05:45:18 pm
...Forget about Turkey becoming part of the EU within the next 20 years. Turkey's dictator just set the clock back 30 years.
Too late, they are already member of the EU-establishment.
The dictator in Turkey is elected thanks to the millions of turks across EU.
The Merkel/Juncker dictators are elected thank to the same guys.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 21, 2016, 05:47:10 pm
Like Germany bailing out Greece.

Except the Greek bailout has nothing to do with assisting Greece. It's a way of funnelling money to the German banks who lent Greece a shit-ton of cash they knew Greece had no way of paying back.

By using the ECB to 'bail out' Greece, Greece's notional debt gets bigger, but as they will default as soon as no more bail out funds are paid to those banks, their debt is owned by the ECB and can be passed on to the populous of the Eurozone.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 21, 2016, 05:47:42 pm
Now explain that to the lawyers in case your product caused a problem with a liability claim consisting of 7 figures. They have a shortage of arms and legs to do this  :palm:
No difference exists in explaining that to your lawyer for your product, with parts bought inside/outside EU.
There is no difference when you succesfully checked/traced the CE mark.
There is no difference when you unsuccesfully checked the CE mark.
There is no difference when in both situations you ignored the absence of a CE mark.

And please don't start those populist simplistic :palm: things when you refuse to explain your insights and jump to another generalising quote.
The laws says that either the manufacturer or importer (in case the manufacturer is outside the EU) is responsible for the product. Now ask yourself: would you be willing to be responsible for someone else's goof up? Oh, and don't take my word for it: http://europa.eu/youreurope/business/product/ce-mark/index_en.htm (http://europa.eu/youreurope/business/product/ce-mark/index_en.htm)

In other words: if the UK leaves the EU then many small electronics businesses will see that their customers who resell their products within the EU will require formal CE testing even though the production runs are small. The reason is simple: the UK based manufacturer is no longer within the EU and their customers suddenly become an importer instead of a distributor. A small change  but from a legal point of view being an importer is a very different role with much greater responsibilities and risks.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on June 21, 2016, 05:49:30 pm
... to adhere to the harmonized EU standards for chemical,. medical, electrical, machinery and all the rest...
Like most also keep on manufacturing those things following reglementations of other countries, like UL. No need to invent other norms.

Don't forget a hell of a lot of work has gone into harmonizing the various European standards over the last 40 years, one o the better aspects of the EU.
I especially liked the parts where they copied what was in the german DIN norms for decades.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on June 21, 2016, 05:54:21 pm
The laws says that either the manufacturer or importer (in case the manufacturer is outside the EU) is responsible for the product. Now ask yourself: would you be willing to be responsible for someone else's goof up? Oh, and don't take my word for it: http://europa.eu/youreurope/business/product/ce-mark/index_en.htm (http://europa.eu/youreurope/business/product/ce-mark/index_en.htm)
You simplify it to a level you understand it yourself, fine for me. But don't start to use that as a reference for others.
Stop using populistic expressions like "goof up" in overgeneralised quotes. Specify.

Where is your big difference in being responsible for a part that is bought with a checked CE mark from outside EU, and being responsible for a part that is bought with a checked CE mark from inside EU?

... the UK based manufacturer is no longer within the EU and their customers suddenly become an importer instead of a distributor. A small change  but from a legal point of view being an importer is a very different role with much greater responsibilities and risks.
Same here: explain what those legal differences are you found between reselling a UK product with a legal checked EU mark, and a German product with a legal checked EU mark.

if the UK leaves the EU then many small electronics businesses will see that their customers who resell their products within the EU will require formal CE testing even though the production runs are small.
if the UK does not kick the EU dictators out then... same text.

CE tests/certification are mandatory if workers/customers/public/children/... are involved. I assumed you at least knew that.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Koen on June 21, 2016, 06:01:37 pm
Same question as Galenbo, it's interesting.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 21, 2016, 06:09:39 pm
The laws says that either the manufacturer or importer (in case the manufacturer is outside the EU) is responsible for the product. Now ask yourself: would you be willing to be responsible for someone else's goof up? Oh, and don't take my word for it: http://europa.eu/youreurope/business/product/ce-mark/index_en.htm (http://europa.eu/youreurope/business/product/ce-mark/index_en.htm)
You simplify it to a level you understand it yourself, fine for me. But don't start to use that as a reference for others.
Stop using populistic expressions like "goof up" in overgeneralised quotes. Specify.

Where is your big difference in being responsible for a part that is bought with a checked CE mark from outside EU, and being responsible for a part that is bought with a checked CE mark from inside EU?
You are making my point here exactly: 'a checked CE mark'. Devices made in the EU can be self certified by the manufacturer without risk for the distributor. However if you import stuff from outside the EU you'd be crazy to take that risk with self certified devices.

Many small electronics companies make a living by selling small production runs of devices where it really isn't economically viable to send each device out for a full CE conformance test in an accredited lab. This basically takes away any chance of UK based electronics companies to compete for contracts within the EU. They are several thousands of euros behind on the local competition before they start. Is that really so hard to see and understand??

For many products you don't need to use an accredited lab to fullfill CE marking requirements.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: John_ITIC on June 21, 2016, 06:09:59 pm
There is no way on earth that the US would agree to have open boarders with Mexico, free movement across the whole continent, and their laws decided upon in Toronto and their supreme court overruled by a court in Rio.

Don't be so sure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Union
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 21, 2016, 06:26:45 pm
Quote
if the UK does not kick the EU dictators out then... same text.

The Pirate King versus the EU dictators  :clap: ,simply i would prefer to sell very cheap my soul to devil that  is more reliable and the best option
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: retrolefty on June 21, 2016, 06:40:26 pm
Quote
CE tests/certification are mandatory if workers/customers/public/children/... are involved. I assumed you at least knew that.

 So whom does that leave that it is not mandatory for?   :-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 21, 2016, 06:49:17 pm
Quote
Is that really so hard to see and understand??

you don't insist more , they think that can penetrate a wall using their head without they hurt themselves  |O. But  we know the great majority will give the brains on the wall :-DD.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Towger on June 21, 2016, 07:42:30 pm
The CE regulations are a series of 'EU Directives'.
If they are written in to British law it will take more than leaving the EU to change them.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: chris_leyson on June 21, 2016, 07:50:28 pm
Quote
For many products you don't need to use an accredited lab to fullfill CE marking requirements.
Surely for EMC compliance you have yo use an accredited lab ?
In the past I've tested products for mains safety and things like surge tests, brown out tests, leakage and some I can't even remember. As long as everything is documented, with photos as well, then there isn't much of a problem with self certification. It depends a lot on your end customer. I've seen a case where an accredited lab did a compliance test on a 10mW transponder, they said it was radiating somthing close to 100mW, the guy who designed it was furious to say the least, how the hell can that be it's only drawing 30mW at the most, I can't remember, they admitted their mistake and did the test for free.
I've also seen the not so respectible side of EMC testing, big system with lots of wire and shit Yaskawa drives that are CE marked but would never ever meet EMC requirements, there are a few pages hidden in the manual that tell you to bypass everything with ferrite and caps inside a sealed screened cabinet, then it will pass EMC. Anyway long story short, a week of EMC testing and retrofitting useless shit, I came to the conclusion that it would never pass, not even close. The manufacturers told the major US manufacturer, it passed, WTF, and still none the wiser. Rant over.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on June 21, 2016, 07:57:50 pm
The CE regulations are a series of 'EU Directives'.
If they are written in to British law it will take more than leaving the EU to change them.

We could go back to Imperial units and adopt American standards instead.   That would appeal to the older element of the Brexit crowd.  We could even go back to burning coal, delivered by horse and cart.  That would solve the Russian gas problem.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 21, 2016, 08:10:15 pm
Quote
For many products you don't need to use an accredited lab to fullfill CE marking requirements.
Surely for EMC compliance you have yo use an accredited lab ?
No. For many devices you can just put a sticker on it with a CE mark. Having everything tested is what accredited labs have been shouting for a long time but that isn't what the law says. The laws says it has to comply with the regulations and as a manufacturer or importer you are responsible. HOW you know the device complies is up to you. If you think a device complies or have in-house testing facilities then nothing stops you from self certifying the device.

Things get different when safety is involved but then you enter into things like mains plugs, fuses, etc which where already required to undergo testing. In those cases CE marking unified/replaced many (different) standards from European countries.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on June 21, 2016, 08:57:26 pm
I don't think there is any point, the UK will just end up worse than the other countries who are not members but have access to the inner market: they will have to implement all the EU directives anyway but they will no longer have any influence in Brussels. The other countries in that situation made a deal when they were deciding if they should join or not, so the EU gave them some leeway, if UK leaves they will really have to make it a good deal for the rest of the EU for them to accept it.

Also I'm curious how the Scottish would feel if the UK leaves EU. Surely they will want another independence referendum, if they have to choose between Westminster and EU, what is the bigger evil? I have a feeling most think it's Westminster.

I am wishing for a brexit just so I can see the action  :popcorn:
>:D
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 21, 2016, 09:30:03 pm
"Also I'm curious how the Scottish would feel if the UK leaves EU. "

A large investment bank today published a note today along the lines I mentioned earlier. The biggest blowback from brexit is likeely on thee political froont: you will likely see the collapse of the Cameron government, more independence movement (Scottish plus thee Spanish), uprising on the extreme rights as well as extreme left - one is going to be excited by brexit and another pissed at it, regardless of the outcome.

IE. A more decided europe. In my book, that's a better Europe.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: chris_leyson on June 21, 2016, 10:04:30 pm
Quote
The laws says it has to comply with the regulations and as a manufacturer or importer you are responsible
Totally agree 100% but there are no border controls of any sort whatsover in the UK to stop unsafe electrical products getting into the country, Brexit or no Brexit it isn't going to make a difference. Trading standards, Customs and Excise, you got to be laughing, they've got very little or no control whatsoever is some cases. Allegedlly you can order just about anything online and it will arrive in a padded envelope some time later, border control, it's a joke.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 21, 2016, 10:09:40 pm
Quote
The laws says it has to comply with the regulations and as a manufacturer or importer you are responsible
Totally agree 100% but there are no border controls of any sort whatsover in the UK to stop unsafe electrical products getting into the country, Brexit or no Brexit it isn't going to make a difference. Trading standards, Customs and Excise, you got to be laughing, they've got very little or no control whatsoever is some cases. Allegedlly you can order just about anything online and it will arrive in a padded envelope some time later, border control, it's a joke.
True but the devil is in the details: IF something goes wrong shit is going to fly and I rather make sure I will not be where the shit lands. Better be safe than sorry.

And don't be so sure about ordering whatever you want online. Mail and parcels do get checked much more thouroughly than you think.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 21, 2016, 10:12:36 pm
(http://www.icomuk.co.uk/images/icom/fieldsetField/235/CE_Marks_lrg.jpg)

Also I'm curious how the Scottish would feel if the UK leaves EU. Surely they will want another independence referendum, if they have to choose between Westminster and EU, what is the bigger evil? I have a feeling most think it's Westminster.

Like the Spanish would ever allow an independent Scotland to join. It'd only encourage the Catalans to pursue independence from Spain.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 21, 2016, 10:15:18 pm
[img]http://www.icomuk.co.uk/images/icom/fieldsetField/235/CE_Marks_lrg.jpg[/im
No, not this nonsense again  :palm: There is at least one court ruling which says the wrong CE logo is to be interpreted as a valid CE logo for all intends and purposes. So sorry, no loop hole.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: woodchips on June 21, 2016, 10:24:56 pm
Just read Why Vote Leave by Hannan, and pretty persuasive it is too.

Thing is, to leave the EU all a member country has to do is repeal Article 20 of the Lisbon Treaty and the EU is bound to accept. So, if we remain and the ever closer bit becomes suffocating then there is a way out in some years to come, irrespective whether anyone says in is in and out is out.

I do find this wonderfully reassuring.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on June 21, 2016, 10:56:14 pm
Quote
CE tests/certification are mandatory if workers/customers/public/children/... are involved. I assumed you at least knew that.

 So whom does that leave that it is not mandatory for?   :-DD
Prototypes used as prototype, test setups in closed environments, tools only used by the owner himself, parts/devices that will not be used standalone and will be integrated into a bigger ensemble, temporary setups with partial certifications,...
Understand this sentence the way I wrote it: Every item with it's own exceptions, limits, assumptions.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 21, 2016, 10:57:25 pm
[img]http://www.icomuk.co.uk/images/icom/fieldsetField/235/CE_Marks_lrg.jpg[/im
No, not this nonsense again  :palm: There is at least one court ruling which says the wrong CE logo is to be interpreted as a valid CE logo for all intends and purposes. So sorry, no loop hole.
Well every day's a school day. I didn't know that and will have a bit more trust in the mark even if the letters are a bit too close together.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on June 21, 2016, 10:57:44 pm
Quote
if the UK does not kick the EU dictators out then... same text.

The Pirate King versus the EU dictators  :clap: ,simply i would prefer to sell very cheap my soul to devil that  is more reliable and the best option
Every civilian had that choice in WW2 too.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on June 21, 2016, 11:09:50 pm
Quote
The laws says it has to comply with the regulations and as a manufacturer or importer you are responsible
Totally agree 100% but there are no border controls of any sort whatsover in the UK to stop unsafe electrical products getting into the country, Brexit or no Brexit it isn't going to make a difference. Trading standards, Customs and Excise, you got to be laughing, they've got very little or no control whatsoever is some cases. Allegedlly you can order just about anything online and it will arrive in a padded envelope some time later, border control, it's a joke.
You introduce a new aspect here. It's true you can buy uncertified items in china that should be certified.
But you can use it to burn your own house down, once you sell them you are responsible for checking and be somewhat safe, or ignoring and take the risk.
Making your own business of reselling uncertified/copyright/illegal items won't last long.

At least for me, I don't need a bigger control or opression from goverments. The ones who need should see it applied on them personally, not on the others.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on June 22, 2016, 12:25:41 am
The Single Currency typifies the folly of those who run the EU.  I'm not an economist, merely a technician, but even to me it is blindingly obvious that one currency, with one central bank, one interest rate (and thus one and only one economic policy) could never work across countries with economies as different as Germany and Greece, the Netherlands and Cyprus, etc etc.

I have to agree.  This is one aspect of the EU that never made sense to me.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: CatalinaWOW on June 22, 2016, 12:56:24 am
The Single Currency typifies the folly of those who run the EU.  I'm not an economist, merely a technician, but even to me it is blindingly obvious that one currency, with one central bank, one interest rate (and thus one and only one economic policy) could never work across countries with economies as different as Germany and Greece, the Netherlands and Cyprus, etc etc.

I have to agree.  This is one aspect of the EU that never made sense to me.

From the outside looking in - the problem isn't the difference in economies.  Various parts of the US are at least as different economically as the countries mentioned.  It is the difference in economies combined with the (to an outsider) strange mix of EU level control and local control.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 22, 2016, 01:06:06 am
For people living in a large country or an island it may be strange but needing 4 to 5 different currencies in one holiday (driving only 1 or 2 days away by car) is a major PITA!

IMHO what sets the EU apart from the rest of the world is that it is a collaboration of countries which (mostly) have a multi-party political system where nobody has absolute power. This translates into the EU not having a single captain but some kind of a round table where ideas are pitched, molded into new ideas and then agreed upon or thrown out. Since recent there is a EU president but this post is more or less ceremonial.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 22, 2016, 01:22:41 am
For people living in a large country or an island it may be strange but needing 4 to 5 different currencies in one holiday (driving only 1 or 2 days away by car) is a major PITA!


Yeah!  The PIGS* might be in economic turmoil due to having no control over their own financial policy having adopted the Euro, but at least your road trips are more convenient!  That's a small price (for them) to pay.  >:D

* Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 22, 2016, 06:47:01 am
Since recent there is a EU president but this post is more or less ceremonial.
There are no less than 4 EU presidents.

None of whom are democratically elected.

And I defy anyone to name them all without looking them up.

Go Democracy!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: StuUK on June 22, 2016, 06:55:18 am


Yeah!  The PIGS* might be in economic turmoil due to having no control over their own financial policy having adopted the Euro, but at least your road trips are more convenient!  That's a small price (for them) to pay.  >:D

* Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain.

An inaccurate statement, in fact half the problem with Eurozone is the lack of fiscal harmonisation. Regardless I'll be voting to remain....
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: chris_leyson on June 22, 2016, 07:14:04 am
Sorry, I went into rant mode on the CE marking thing. Thankfully deaths from unsafe appliances are rare, Amazon withdrew hoverboards because of the fire risks, but who is accountable and does the victim get any compensation. If somebody can be shown to be criminally neglegent then you might have a good chance, otherwise it would be a civil case and you would probably have to pay court costs.
Most of the forum members have a technical and/or scientific background and can make a judgemant call when it comes to electrical safety, members of the public who may not have the same technical and scientific background can't.
I think for most part CE marking and harmonized standards work well and if we stay or leave we would still have to adhere to the same standards.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 22, 2016, 07:30:16 am
The brexit will bring prosperity to the irish, good for them.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 22, 2016, 08:56:53 am
Since recent there is a EU president but this post is more or less ceremonial.
There are no less than 4 EU presidents.

None of whom are democratically elected.

And I defy anyone to name them all without looking them up.

Go Democracy!
Council - Donald Tusk
Commission - Jean-Claude Juncker
Parliament - Martin Schulz
Revolving presidency - The Netherlands

Had to look up Schulz and the current revolving presidency, But then I can't name a German politician other than Merkel and frequently forget who the French PM is.

Heck I'd be hard pushed to name all of the UK cabinet

The EU is not a soverign power - why would it have a president.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 22, 2016, 09:53:54 am
indeed they are all chairmans.
And I could also not name all the ministers in our cabinet let alone the state secretaries.

Anyway, the brexit is a good sign the EU should hold back a bit, it was going to fast without solving issues that really need to be solved.
What I also did not like one bit is that all countries had to economize because of the bad economic climate but the EU wanted more money each and every year.
That is rediculous, if all countries in the EU are doing great, fine they can raise their budget but if all countries are suffering so should they.
Also the EU employees have unbelievable tax benefits and traveling expenses that are beyond your wildest dreams. They should just act as normal as our own governments and pipe down a bit.
And concerning buying all the worthless bonds of all eu countries the last two years, OMG what are they thinking.
Come to think of it, why are we not leaving  :-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 22, 2016, 10:40:27 am
One thing the EU parliament can do without for sure is moving between Brussels and Strasbourg every month.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 22, 2016, 10:49:33 am
One thing the EU parliament can do without for sure is moving between Brussels and Strasbourg every month.
Agree on that one - it's utterly insane and wastes more than €100 million per year. Even most MEPs think it is nuts.

BUT changing it would require agreement of all 28 nations and itis generally agreed that the French want to continue with the parliament in Strasbourg and will not acquiesce.

I'm guessing the Belgians would feel the same about a permanent move to Strasbourg so I guess that isn't a solution.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 22, 2016, 11:06:32 am
"Also the EU employees have unbelievable tax benefits and traveling expenses that are beyond your wildest dreams. "

Everyone is equal, except some is more equal than others.

A sure sign of political corruption.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: StuUK on June 22, 2016, 11:12:06 am
"Also the EU employees have unbelievable tax benefits and traveling expenses that are beyond your wildest dreams. "

Everyone is equal, except some is more equal than others.

A sure sign of political corruption.

So whats new?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 22, 2016, 11:56:42 am
Quote
CE tests/certification are mandatory if workers/customers/public/children/... are involved. I assumed you at least knew that.

 So whom does that leave that it is not mandatory for?   :-DD
Prototypes used as prototype, test setups in closed environments, tools only used by the owner himself, parts/devices that will not be used standalone and will be integrated into a bigger ensemble, temporary setups with partial certifications,...
Understand this sentence the way I wrote it: Every item with it's own exceptions, limits, assumptions.
So how any of those can be sold to the end customer unless it's some kind of bare board like Arduino. Those devices which can be sold as such are a minuscule part of total items produced.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on June 22, 2016, 01:10:47 pm
One thing the EU parliament can do without for sure is moving between Brussels and Strasbourg every month.
Agree on that one - it's utterly insane and wastes more than €100 million per year. Even most MEPs think it is nuts.
I suggest a 1-time move to Turkey. So Turkey has more than they ever dreamed of, and we will get rid of it all.

I'm guessing the Belgians would feel the same about a permanent move to Strasbourg so I guess that isn't a solution.
There is no generalised "feel" of the Belgians.
The directly/indirectly net oversubsidized Belgians want it to stay.
The ones that can directly/indirectly net pay for it want it to leave.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Zero999 on June 22, 2016, 02:40:12 pm
One thing the EU parliament can do without for sure is moving between Brussels and Strasbourg every month.
Agree on that one - it's utterly insane and wastes more than €100 million per year. Even most MEPs think it is nuts.

BUT changing it would require agreement of all 28 nations and itis generally agreed that the French want to continue with the parliament in Strasbourg and will not acquiesce.

I'm guessing the Belgians would feel the same about a permanent move to Strasbourg so I guess that isn't a solution.
Move annually, rather than every month or split it in two and use video conferencing.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 22, 2016, 02:42:10 pm
One thing the EU parliament can do without for sure is moving between Brussels and Strasbourg every month.
Agree on that one - it's utterly insane and wastes more than €100 million per year. Even most MEPs think it is nuts.

BUT changing it would require agreement of all 28 nations and itis generally agreed that the French want to continue with the parliament in Strasbourg and will not acquiesce.

I'm guessing the Belgians would feel the same about a permanent move to Strasbourg so I guess that isn't a solution.
Move annually, rather than every month or split it in two and use video conferencing.

Haha!  Best of luck with that!

If the EU won't even make the change to avoid that travelling circus every month, how can we expect them ever to make the political reforms needed?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Towger on June 22, 2016, 03:34:51 pm
Also the EU employees have unbelievable tax benefits and traveling expenses that are beyond your wildest dreams. They should just act as normal as our own governments and pipe down a bit.

It must be the 'new' EU employees who pay tax. Approx 16% according to the internet.  I know someone who started when Ireland initially joined in the 70's and only retired a couple of years ago. She always maintained she paid no tax, as by a quirk in the system she was not resident in any country.  The travel allowances paid 1st/business class, but if you traveled steerage you could pocked the difference...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 22, 2016, 03:49:42 pm
If the EU won't even make the change to avoid that travelling circus every month, how can we expect them ever to make the political reforms needed?
This seems to be the usual criticism which is levelled at the EU but I am not sure it is totally valid.

For something like the monthly move of the EU Parliament then having to have unanimous agreement is always going to fall foul of one or two nations who stubbornly oppose change. But it might also be argued that it is a relatively inconsequential decision (and therefore ideal for endless debate). Moving Parliament and maintaining two sets of infrastructure is certainly wasteful but it does not fundamentally harm the EU.

On other matters agreement is reached and laws are enacted so I don't think it follows from the fact that agreement can't be reached on the switcheroo between Strasbourg and Brussels it automatically follows that other reforms would never be agreed upon.

Just quite likely  ;)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 22, 2016, 05:31:26 pm
Buried as a side note in the business section on our 'impartial' BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36596060 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36596060)

Quote from: Markus Kerber (head of BDI)
Imposing trade barriers, imposing protectionist measures between our two countries - or between the two political centres, the European Union on the one hand and the UK on the other - would be a very, very foolish thing in the 21st Century,
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: FrankD on June 22, 2016, 05:56:07 pm
Inhabitants of Gibraltar can pack there bags if a brexit becomes a reality.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 22, 2016, 06:05:25 pm
Quote
A German industry boss has said it would be "very, very foolish" if the EU imposes trade barriers on the UK in the event it votes to leave the EU

So ,when a employee has low performance, he generated conflicts between companions from corporation, according the German Boss would be a savagery to fire the troubled employee in the 21s century.

When it really ,this boss wouldn't doubt on any moment to fire the employee. I believe that is the same situation besides on  an easy situation , he wants to go out
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 22, 2016, 06:24:14 pm
Council - Donald Tusk
Commission - Jean-Claude Juncker
Parliament - Martin Schulz
Revolving presidency - The Netherlands

Juncker is a cheerful fellow:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPgiI46FCDU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPgiI46FCDU)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 22, 2016, 06:29:28 pm
Quote
Inhabitants of Gibraltar can pack there bags if a brexit becomes a reality.  :popcorn:

Years and years the abuses and insults  versus spanish , i glad  that the british vote for going out .

we can install to border a giant speakers and it plays a record from a oxided gate that is closing or the spanish song "the  english that came from London"

https://youtu.be/tvMUpxQHEmg (https://youtu.be/tvMUpxQHEmg)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 22, 2016, 06:41:26 pm
Council - Donald Tusk
Commission - Jean-Claude Juncker
Parliament - Martin Schulz
Revolving presidency - The Netherlands

Juncker is a cheerful fellow :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPgiI46FCDU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPgiI46FCDU)





The Junker is the godparent from Europe
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 22, 2016, 07:01:43 pm
You should consume less propaganda on evenings. You are so concerned about Putin, but most of what you see are scare stories like those about Russian submarine 2 years ago which turned out to be bullshit as your defense minister admitted recently. Guess what was the purpose of searching non existent submarine:

There are no propaganda ask Trump and Farange! Its much better if you dont portray your self as Juerg Haider apologist by putting words in mouth. Im not particularly concerned merely holding the mirror reflect the future Putin-Trump friendship. Genuine swedes know their crocked politicians inside out and Russia has been a enemy since vikings lost Rus back in 800 AD or so. Besides the sub came from Austria and we Finns have very god president and gladly hire him out on consultant basis to US and Austria so they can learn a thing or two.

Iceland a viking nation led by a swedish viking just won 2-1 against a silly pompous Austria! Moooohahahahaha!  >:D
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: ez24 on June 22, 2016, 07:52:20 pm
Inhabitants of Gibraltar can pack there bags if a brexit becomes a reality.  :popcorn:

Why is Spain so popular with the British?  weather - economics   ??
(BBC says Spain is the number 1 country for British expats)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 22, 2016, 07:53:45 pm
Sun and cheap alcohol! Costa del sol is their favorite retirement destination, if Brittons exit Eu the Spaniards could quite easily demand them out of Spain! :popcorn:

(http://exp.cdn-hotels.com/hotels/2000000/1790000/1789600/1789597/1789597_67_z.jpg)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 22, 2016, 08:07:15 pm
Code: [Select]
Sun and cheap alcohol!
cheap and bad quality alcohol because the fine alcohol is more expensive.

Besides ,  free health service paid by the stupid spanish.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 22, 2016, 08:18:52 pm
Inhabitants of Gibraltar can pack there bags if a brexit becomes a reality.  :popcorn:

Why? We're all going to stay befriended nations, whatever the outcome. Everyone will do their best to make the situation after the vote work.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 22, 2016, 08:21:02 pm
Sun and cheap alcohol! Costa del sol is their favorite retirement destination, if Brittons exit Eu the Spaniards could quite easily demand them out of Spain! :popcorn:


Yeah, who'd want wealthy self-supporting retirees with pensions to spend in their country anyway?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 22, 2016, 08:23:28 pm
Pretty much everyone in the Remain camp has admitted that reform of the current EU is necessary.

Unfortunately the top bloke has made it clear that that is not going to happen.

Quote
British voters have to know that there will be no kind of renegotiation. We have concluded a deal with the prime minister. He got the maximum he could receive and we gave the maximum we could give. So there will be no renegotiation, not on the agreement we found in February, nor as far as any kind of treaty negotiations are concerned.

http://order-order.com/2016/06/22/juncker-no-reform-vote-remain/ (http://order-order.com/2016/06/22/juncker-no-reform-vote-remain/)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 22, 2016, 08:29:07 pm
Buried as a side note in the business section on our 'impartial' BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36596060 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36596060)
Quote from: Markus Kerber (head of BDI)
Imposing trade barriers, imposing protectionist measures between our two countries - or between the two political centres, the European Union on the one hand and the UK on the other - would be a very, very foolish thing in the 21st Century,
So vote 'stay' because exiting the EU will impose trade barriers one way or another even though they are not intended that way. Think about taxes, import tarifs, visa, product safety regulations, etc, etc. All these will need to be contained within new treaties and there will be problems for sure if the UK wants to use different product safety regulations than mainland Europe. If the UK exits they basically have to follow product safety rules (they could choose to adopt the ones from the US) they cannot influence. Ofcourse they could try and set their own but that would make the products the UK imports more expensive due to needing extra testing.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 22, 2016, 08:47:45 pm
Sun and cheap alcohol! Costa del sol is their favorite retirement destination, if Brittons exit Eu the Spaniards could quite easily demand them out of Spain! :popcorn:
Yeah, who'd want wealthy self-supporting retirees with pensions to spend in their country anyway?

You assume utterly wrongly they are wealthy and self sporting!

5.5millon Brittons in Spain is there because Spain cheap and EU laws! Brittons if leaving EU could/would lose a range of specific rights to live, work and to access pensions, healthcare and public services that are only guaranteed because of EU laws. Brittonic citizens resident abroad who have retired to Spain would then not be able to assume that these rights will be guaranteed. Suddenly cheap Spain is not so cheap anymore so there goes your wealthy self supporting pensioners.

Put it this way if Brexit Spain might go sour on 5,5million Brtittons having free health care they didnt pay for in the first place!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 22, 2016, 08:51:08 pm
Why is Spain so popular with the British?  weather - economics   ??
(BBC says Spain is the number 1 country for British expats)

France is nearer, but they don't like anyone (including themselves I think).
I believe Portugal is almost the only country that we haven't been to war with.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 22, 2016, 08:56:21 pm

You assume utterly wrongly they are wealthy and self sporting!

5.5millon Brittons in Spain is there because Spain cheap and EU laws! Brittons if leaving EU could/would lose a range of specific rights to live, work and to access pensions, healthcare and public services that are only guaranteed because of EU laws. Brittonic citizens resident abroad who have retired to Spain would then not be able to assume that these rights will be guaranteed. Suddenly cheap Spain is not so cheap anymore so there goes your wealthy self supporting pensioners.

Put it this way if Brexit Spain might go sour on 5,5million Brtittons having free health care they didnt pay for in the first place!

5,500,000 Brits in Spain?  :-/O  Have you been on the vodka with that other dude?  :palm:

Seriously, where on earth did you get that number from?  It's around 750,000 I think...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 22, 2016, 09:13:21 pm
Vodka? No i dont drink Russian stuff, but would not say no to a Irish Cream. UK government, read a bit hastily, i stand corrected, so 5,5 million
abroad in total and 1 million in Spain, 1,4million Australia, 25000 in Sweden 15500 Norway...None dares come to Finland because of the language!

Anyhow point is, they might have to go back from sunny  low cost Spain!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 22, 2016, 09:15:12 pm
...Im not particularly concerned merely holding the mirror reflect the future Putin-Trump friendship.

It's a crooked mirror

(http://courtneywalsh.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c1a6753ef01a3fcc6cff9970b-500wi)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 22, 2016, 09:17:13 pm
It's a crooked mirror

(http://courtneywalsh.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c1a6753ef01a3fcc6cff9970b-500wi)

Yes i agree, also made in America!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: kaz911 on June 22, 2016, 09:34:14 pm
Sun and cheap alcohol! Costa del sol is their favorite retirement destination, if Brittons exit Eu the Spaniards could quite easily demand them out of Spain! :popcorn:



Spain would collapse (again) if all the Brits left. About 25 % of full time residents left between 2012 and 2014 - and that was felt on the economy along the popular spots. Most Brit  residents in Spain can actually pay for their own way from pensions - that is the kind of residents the local governments like! Money infused into the system - and all health/hospital issues invoiced on to the UK. REVENUE with no expense is the best part. And the Spanish while they love to say they don't like the Brits staying and taking housing in some places - they have found out the replacements nationalities are a lot worse. :)

Btw there are officially about 300.000 full time Brits left in Spain by mid of 2015.  Not 700.000... But if you count people with part time occupation (Like us) who have a little apartment there - then it might total to 700.000. But if they/we all left - the housing market would crash again. The locals says finally the Brits are returning and now they talk about Brexit..... 

Btw - I'm not a Brit but my family are. And we are lucky and found a place where people are mostly polite :) from locals to expats and not one of the "party" areas where it is full of Drunken Idiots with little respect for anything.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 22, 2016, 09:47:34 pm
There are now at least 3 different figures, from where did you get your numbers? We could turn it the other way how many
 Polish plumbers have to leave if UK leave, or the total numbers of foreigners in UK? or will they automatically become UK citizens?

(http://giantgag.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/plumbers-crack-camouflage.jpg)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 22, 2016, 10:00:57 pm
so 5,5 million abroad in total and 1 million in Spain, 1,4million Australia, 25000 in Sweden 15500 Norway...None dares come to Finland because of the language!!
And the uk criminals come to Amsterdam  :(
Good luck tomorrow with voting!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: kaz911 on June 22, 2016, 10:21:14 pm
There are now at least 3 different figures, from where did you get your numbers? We could turn it the other way how many
 Polish plumbers have to leave if UK leave, or the total numbers of foreigners in UK? or will they automatically become UK citizens?


Most sources say about 300.000

From WIKI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Spain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Spain)
and other: https://fullfact.org/europe/how-many-uk-citizens-live-other-eu-countries/ (https://fullfact.org/europe/how-many-uk-citizens-live-other-eu-countries/)
From SPANISH INE compiled data (actually < 300.000) : http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/2016/05/17/eu-expats-deserting-spain-thanks-government-policy/ (http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/2016/05/17/eu-expats-deserting-spain-thanks-government-policy/)
(INE data is based on NIE numbers - which are the social security number in Spain - you are required to be registered if full time resident - or if you buy anything that requires registration (car, moped, house, apartment)  - or even buy a POWER SUPPLY from an online electronics shop - used for VAT statistics on "larger items" ) :)
(http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/ine-padron-expats-2015.jpg)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 22, 2016, 10:55:45 pm
Vodka? No i dont drink Russian stuff, but would not say no to a Irish Cream. UK government, read a bit hastily, i stand corrected, so 5,5 million
abroad in total and 1 million in Spain, 1,4million Australia, 25000 in Sweden 15500 Norway...None dares come to Finland because of the language!

Anyhow point is, they might have to go back from sunny  low cost Spain!

So be it.  It should be the choice of the Spanish who is allowed to reside in their country.  Anyone who thinks that's a xenophobic or bigoted stance can fuck right off, to be frank.

Incidentally I think it's highly unlikely that Spain would want to punt all the Brits out, but should they wish to then who are we to tell them otherwise.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 22, 2016, 11:03:51 pm
"It should be the choice of the Spanish who is allowed to reside in their country. "

It would surprise me that you get called precisely that. As I point out earlier, we live in a twisted world right now.

Hopefully, people 500 years from now don't look at multiculturalism as the cauuse of thee demise of Western civilization.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 22, 2016, 11:10:27 pm
"It should be the choice of the Spanish who is allowed to reside in their country. "
I think they already did: who has money to spend stays. The climate in Spain is very tolerable even in the summer so I don't blame people for wanting to live there.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 22, 2016, 11:45:42 pm
Most sources say about 300.000

From WIKI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Spain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Spain)
and other: https://fullfact.org/europe/how-many-uk-citizens-live-other-eu-countries/ (https://fullfact.org/europe/how-many-uk-citizens-live-other-eu-countries/)
From SPANISH INE compiled data (actually < 300.000) : http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/2016/05/17/eu-expats-deserting-spain-thanks-government-policy/ (http://www.spanishpropertyinsight.com/2016/05/17/eu-expats-deserting-spain-thanks-government-policy/)
(INE data is based on NIE numbers - which are the social security number in Spain - you are required to be registered if full time resident - or if you buy anything that requires registration (car, moped, house, apartment)  - or even buy a POWER SUPPLY from an online electronics shop - used for VAT statistics on "larger items" ) :)

Power supply?

Wikki is wikki , According to the BBC, there are 761,000 British residents in Spain.[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_migration_to_Spain#cite_note-3 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_migration_to_Spain#cite_note-3)
but 319 000 i think it was http://www.un.org/en/development/desa/population/migration/data/estimates2/estimates15.shtml (http://www.un.org/en/development/desa/population/migration/data/estimates2/estimates15.shtml) and 750 000 according to another UK gov estimate, 381 256 according to IBT!?  with one third of the total is registered of the total one would prefer?!!.. Prof Derrick Wyatt emeritus professor of law, Oxford University estimated 2million in total UK citizens lived abroad, assuming EU, no idea from where he got the numbers.

Hmm,,, to much fluctuations in the "estimated" measurements that's presented...
 
Anyho found some UK gov immigrant figure statistics https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/immigration-statistics-january-to-march-2016/summary... (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/immigration-statistics-january-to-march-2016/summary...) have to study these....

More interesting i think is Spaniards in UK! :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaniards_in_the_United_Kingdom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaniards_in_the_United_Kingdom)

Quote
Spain would collapse (again) if all the Brits left. About 25 % of full time residents left between 2012 and 2014 - and that was felt on the economy along the popular spots. Most Brit  residents in Spain can actually pay for their own way from pensions - that is the kind of residents the local governments like! Money infused into the system - and all health/hospital issues invoiced on to the UK. REVENUE with no expense is the best part. And the Spanish while they love to say they don't like the Brits staying and taking housing in some places - they have found out the replacements nationalities are a lot worse. :)

But Spain have collapsed, Barcelona wants out of Spain. ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiThRIHwQDE&ab_channel=ravajack (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiThRIHwQDE&ab_channel=ravajack)

Quote
Btw there are officially about 300.000 full time Brits left in Spain by mid of 2015.  Not 700.000... But if you count people with part time occupation (Like us) who have a little apartment there - then it might total to 700.000. But if they/we all left - the housing market would crash again. The locals says finally the Brits are returning and now they talk about Brexit.....

Yes but perhaps those who vote for a leave are those who cant afford a Spanish retirement house?
Brexit is then sort of poor jobless brit's against middle class wealthy brit's!

Quote
Btw - I'm not a Brit but my family are. And we are lucky and found a place where people are mostly polite :) from locals to expats and not one of the "party" areas where it is full of Drunken Idiots with little respect for anything.

But these drunken idiots is what some one here said was " self-supporting retirees with pensions to spend".. :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 22, 2016, 11:49:00 pm
Buried as a side note in the business section on our 'impartial' BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36596060 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36596060)
Quote from: Markus Kerber (head of BDI)
Imposing trade barriers, imposing protectionist measures between our two countries - or between the two political centres, the European Union on the one hand and the UK on the other - would be a very, very foolish thing in the 21st Century,
So vote 'stay' because exiting the EU will impose trade barriers one way or another even though they are not intended that way. Think about taxes, import tarifs, visa, product safety regulations, etc, etc. All these will need to be contained within new treaties and there will be problems for sure if the UK wants to use different product safety regulations than mainland Europe. If the UK exits they basically have to follow product safety rules (they could choose to adopt the ones from the US) they cannot influence. Ofcourse they could try and set their own but that would make the products the UK imports more expensive due to needing extra testing.

I'd rather have democracy thanks.

The result of the Dutch people voting the wrong way Why we should ban referenda on EU policies (http://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/opinion/why-we-should-ban-referenda-on-eu-policies/)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 22, 2016, 11:51:30 pm
Brexit is then sort of poor jobless brit's against middle class wealthy brit's!
I didn't realise we'd been fucked by the EU even worse than Greece.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 23, 2016, 12:40:38 am
The result of the Dutch people voting the wrong way Why we should ban referenda on EU policies (http://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/opinion/why-we-should-ban-referenda-on-eu-policies/)

Because the EU absolutely must be able to negotiate international treaties, national sovereignty absolutely must die, there is absolutely no alternative.

I hope they get their smug shit pushed in soon as we all elect populists, before they ruin Europe and get on their planes and boats heading towards US/Canada/NZ/Australia going "oh well we tried, but the bigoted natives just were too discriminatory and that's why it all went wrong" as the now majority immigrants riot in a collapsing economy.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: lemmegraphdat on June 23, 2016, 02:21:54 am
Get out. The ruling class can swivel on it.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Stonent on June 23, 2016, 04:36:56 am
Trump is a textbook demagogue: everything he says is designed to engage with people's emotions, fears and prejudices rather than their brains.

Very much the same tactics being used by both sides of the Brexit campaign, in fact.

What action did Trump took made him a demagogue?  What did he say that made him a demagogue?  Give me a quote please.
As enjoyable as it might be, this thread is not the appropriate place for a protracted discussion of Donald Trump's verbal excretions.

If you cannot cite a quote, it is baseless.  Why then do you see this as an appropriate place for you to throw verbal bombs and baseless accusations?

 :-+
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: kaz911 on June 23, 2016, 06:28:01 am


But these drunken idiots is what some one here said was " self-supporting retirees with pensions to spend".. :)

no - mostly package holiday tours....
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 23, 2016, 06:44:09 am
I note that our informal poll is now showing a slight preference to remain, although our European colleagues still want rid of us :)

Talking of the Ex-Pats I wonder how well they have been represented in the opinion polls so far. One would assume that Brits living in Europe would be heavily biased towards remaining in the EU. Not least of which because of fears that their residency status would become uncertain - my understanding is that they would retain their residency rights but this has come up once or twice in the debate.

However many there are, be it 700,000 or 300,000 in Spain, 170,000 in France, 100,000 in Germany etc.  there are certainly enough to swing a 50:50 vote in the UK to a decent "Remain" majority overall.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: continuo on June 23, 2016, 07:33:15 am
Well, Ladies and Gentlemen, today is the day, the polling stations are open, pick your choice, make your decision... And let it be a wise one... (http://forum.cycling4fans.de/imagesdez03/smilies/neue/hoffen.gif)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETveS23djXM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETveS23djXM)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 23, 2016, 07:36:58 am
This referendum is advisory only, not really binding right?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: DimitriP on June 23, 2016, 07:54:32 am
This referendum is advisory only, not really binding right?

Right. It's just a suggestion :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 23, 2016, 08:19:29 am
This referendum is advisory only, not really binding right?

Right. It's just a suggestion :)
Depends who you believe
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 23, 2016, 08:27:30 am
What if it is 50/50 or close to that, probably nothing will happen?  :-//
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: AndyC_772 on June 23, 2016, 08:35:17 am
I believe a simple majority is all that's required one way or the other. We just have to hope that an odd number of people turn out to vote!

Speaking of which... back soon  8)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: DimitriP on June 23, 2016, 08:42:10 am
I haven't found one place/reference that claims it's legaly binding.

Fun read: http://www.businessinsider.com/green-eu-referendum-not-legally-binding-brexit-2016-6 (http://www.businessinsider.com/green-eu-referendum-not-legally-binding-brexit-2016-6)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_the_United_Kingdom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_the_United_Kingdom)

although he tried ... http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-europe-referendum-idUSKBN0EQ0PD20140615 (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-europe-referendum-idUSKBN0EQ0PD20140615)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on June 23, 2016, 09:20:37 am
There is no way under the British constitution to make a referendum legally binding, as Parliament, being sovereign, can always reverse its previous decision.   That said, if there was a big majority one way it would be politically impossible to ignore it, at least without another referendum.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 23, 2016, 09:23:41 am
That said, if there was a big majority one way it would be politically impossible to ignore it
not impossible but it will probably be political suicide.  ;)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: StuUK on June 23, 2016, 09:33:07 am
Been and voted!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 23, 2016, 09:49:14 am
Been and voted!
+1, only 46,499,535 votes to go :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: daqq on June 23, 2016, 10:25:57 am
Quote
I haven't found one place/reference that claims it's legaly binding.
It's not legally binding... that said it might not be a great idea to not comply with legally gained explicit will of a majority of your population.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: StuUK on June 23, 2016, 10:32:53 am
Quote
I haven't found one place/reference that claims it's legaly binding.
It's not legally binding... that said it might not be a great idea to not comply with legally gained explicit will of a majority of your population.

Indeed!!!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on June 23, 2016, 10:47:22 am
Quote
I haven't found one place/reference that claims it's legaly binding.
It's not legally binding... that said it might not be a great idea to not comply with legally gained explicit will of a majority of your population.

Indeed!!!

Hence the S.O.P. of holding repeated referenda until you get the result you want!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on June 23, 2016, 11:42:15 am
Why? We're all going to stay befriended nations, whatever the outcome. Everyone will do their best to make the situation after the vote work.
Of course. Import and export will go on like before. Will be transported and payed as before.
Some politicians and their bureaucracy of the +7 levels above me will have to adapt somewhat, quickly write some notes, and redefine some priorities.
No big changes are to be expected.

Pretty much everyone in the Remain camp has admitted that reform of the current EU is necessary.
Like 5,10,15 and 20 years ago. Voting for change/reform will give change/reform. But what change/reform?
If remain wins (let's say with 52%), they will get reform. A whole bunch of unreadable documents that makes referenda de-facto impossible.

What if it is 50/50 or close to that, probably nothing will happen?  :-//
It will be. The result will be within the fault margin that "counting votes" always has.
I also would prefer a referendum with a very easy entrance exam, to keep the 10% complete idiots of both sides out.

I haven't found one place/reference that claims it's legaly binding.
So they still can get out, even if 55% votes remain :-)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 23, 2016, 02:00:17 pm
That said, if there was a big majority one way it would be politically impossible to ignore it
not impossible but it will probably be political suicide.  ;)
I doubt it. The public's memory is short so they just wait and delay. Remember the referendum about Ukrain in the NL? I strongly doubt our parliament will honor the outcome.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 23, 2016, 02:15:59 pm
This thread's poll on the day of voting, for reference: 41/41/61/58
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 23, 2016, 02:49:18 pm
A new EU proposal calls for taxing automation:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-robotics-lawmaking-idUSKCN0Z72AY (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-robotics-lawmaking-idUSKCN0Z72AY)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 23, 2016, 04:48:19 pm
Quote
But Spain have collapsed, Barcelona wants out of Spain. ;)

The  zone metropolitan of Barcelona don't want out the Spain neither Tarragona that the zone more industrializing from this region(aproximately 5 Millions from 7Millions)   while the Deep Catalonia  or hicks are who wants out the Spain

And this region had a President very very stupid as Cameron that liked referendums and elections every two years(4 times on less 6 years). He have destroyed his coalition ,sank two traditionals parties(CDC and Unio) and a anti-system party(CUP) .

The consequence for Catalonia a uncontable debt(aproximately 700M €) .they don't pay to the pharmaceuticals corporations,hospitas etc .And Spain have to borrow money to EU for paying the catalonia debts.

While they go opening  Catalonia ambassadorship with a cost 1M€ for month with the money from catalonia kidnapped,the spanish and all the  European countries ,inclusive the british.



Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: AndyC_772 on June 23, 2016, 05:05:11 pm
A new EU proposal calls for taxing automation:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-robotics-lawmaking-idUSKCN0Z72AY (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-robotics-lawmaking-idUSKCN0Z72AY)

Oh, bloody marvellous. Please, someone show these people around a factory before they start trying to decide that a "robot" is a new thing that can be taxed and regulated.

It'll be like a biologist trying to define what is alive and what isn't. Is a CNC mill a robot? Or a pick & place machine? Or does it have to have red glowing eyes and demand your clothes, your boots and your motorcycle?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 23, 2016, 05:41:13 pm
Quote
A new EU proposal calls for taxing automation:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-robotics-lawmaking-idUSKCN0Z72AY (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-robotics-lawmaking-idUSKCN0Z72AY)

I doubt that they put this tax because euro-parlaments have to face with the german industrials lobbies and if the euro-parlament put  fools ,the lobbies have mechanism for changing their intention.

(As the classic joke from dentsit and the client, when the client catches the nuts dentist's and he says "Aren't  we  going to hurt  us?")
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 23, 2016, 07:12:45 pm
A new EU proposal calls for taxing automation:

An intelligent robot does not necessarily require a human form to be considered a person,
by that reasoning we should therefore expect a robot cat tax.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VBEF2GjCPw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VBEF2GjCPw)


Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 23, 2016, 07:40:45 pm
Quote
An intelligent robot does not necessarily require a human form to be considered a person,
by that reasoning we should therefore expect a robot cat tax.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VBEF2GjCPw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VBEF2GjCPw)

So , we shall have a tax for all types the robot , since cook robot , warehouse robot until the  military robot as the  systems anti-aircarft and the reload  systems.
 
it hasn't any  sense and it would be very difficult for applying
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on June 23, 2016, 07:57:35 pm
Any guesstimates when the preliminary results will be in? if both sides are about 50% I'm guessing it can take all night?

A new EU proposal calls for taxing automation:
"proposal" being the operative word...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 23, 2016, 09:10:47 pm
About 5 or 6 minutes after the polls (real) have CLOSED in the UK, I took the results here:

tl;dr
Almost EXACTLY neck and neck.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 23, 2016, 09:20:48 pm
Any guesstimates when the preliminary results will be in? if both sides are about 50% I'm guessing it can take all night?

Yes, all night, results Friday morning. No exit polls.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 23, 2016, 09:43:23 pm
First poll on Belgian radio:52% remain
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 23, 2016, 09:55:14 pm
Second poll: 54% remain
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 23, 2016, 11:21:03 pm
LEAVE is in the lead by 3,207 votes out of hundreds of thousands of votes. But LEAVE is probably looking in the lead, so far.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 23, 2016, 11:37:16 pm
LEAVE is in the lead by 3,207 votes out of hundreds of thousands of votes. But LEAVE is probably looking in the lead, so far.
As expected by the betting odds > 75% for Remain.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 23, 2016, 11:41:36 pm
LEAVE is in the lead by 3,207 votes out of hundreds of thousands of votes. But LEAVE is probably looking in the lead, so far.
As expected by the betting odds > 75% for Remain.

Who cares about the betting odds ?

My result (50.5% LEAVE), is the ACTUAL vote counts (so far).

It is still TOO CLOSE to call reliably, so we will have to see . . . ..........
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 23, 2016, 11:46:13 pm
Now REMAIN is back in the lead. (By almost 20K votes)
We will have to just wait and see.

EDIT:
Now LEAVE is back in the lead.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 24, 2016, 12:17:56 am
Exciting to watch, I have to say.

The Trump-Clinton fight is also going to be interesting too.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: mtdoc on June 24, 2016, 12:28:59 am
No need to watch the polls, just watch THIS (http://www.forexlive.com/livecharts?tvwidgetsymbol=FX%3AGBPUSD) and you'll know the up to date direction that the vote is swinging. Click on the "1" in the top left corner of the chart to get the 1 minute candle view.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on June 24, 2016, 12:29:37 am
A new EU proposal calls for taxing automation:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-robotics-lawmaking-idUSKCN0Z72AY (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-robotics-lawmaking-idUSKCN0Z72AY)

Oh, bloody marvellous. Please, someone show these people around a factory before they start trying to decide that a "robot" is a new thing that can be taxed and regulated.

It'll be like a biologist trying to define what is alive and what isn't. Is a CNC mill a robot? Or a pick & place machine? Or does it have to have red glowing eyes and demand your clothes, your boots and your motorcycle?

Maybe if we ever get to the "Bicentennial Man" level they could look at social security - but there's a whole sheaf of issues there.

As for taxing automation, per se, the only reason I can think of is to fund unemployment benefits and retraining for human jobs that have been replaced by automation.  Seems a bit of a cop out to me.  Creating new jobs is way better.  That's not easy - but, then, life is a challenge.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 24, 2016, 01:05:38 am
I note that our informal poll is now showing a slight preference to remain, although our European colleagues still want rid of us :)

Talking of the Ex-Pats I wonder how well they have been represented in the opinion polls so far. One would assume that Brits living in Europe would be heavily biased towards remaining in the EU. Not least of which because of fears that their residency status would become uncertain - my understanding is that they would retain their residency rights but this has come up once or twice in the debate.

However many there are, be it 700,000 or 300,000 in Spain, 170,000 in France, 100,000 in Germany etc.  there are certainly enough to swing a 50:50 vote in the UK to a decent "Remain" majority overall.

Gibraltars: only 823 for leave! Falklands perhaps are more of a vote in for Argentina! :)

Check out the peculiar poll stations! brilliant! ^-^  ............Forged pens!  ;D

Concerns: A poll released this week revealed that many Leave campaigners fear that today's referendum is rigged against them - so many are bringing their own pens

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3655775/The-polls-finally-open-Britain-s-historic-Referendum-vote-latest-polls-Remain-camp-lead-six-points-weather-swing-Brexit.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3655775/The-polls-finally-open-Britain-s-historic-Referendum-vote-latest-polls-Remain-camp-lead-six-points-weather-swing-Brexit.html)

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/23/14/3595626E00000578-3656309-ub_landlord_Ray_Seavers_pulls_pints_in_The_Bush_Inn_in_the_small-m-71_1466688470713.jpg)
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/23/14/359650A300000578-3656309-image-a-83_1466689458915.jpg)
 
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/23/19/359621BD00000578-3655775-_usepens_Twitter_is_full_of_messages_urging_people_to_vote_with_-a-67_1466706435851.jpg)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: gnavigator1007 on June 24, 2016, 01:41:04 am
Anybody else watching via brexitclub.eu?  Interesting discussion so far
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 24, 2016, 02:16:13 am

Who cares about the betting odds ?

My result (50.5% LEAVE), is the ACTUAL vote counts (so far).

It is still TOO CLOSE to call reliably, so we will have to see . . . ..........

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probability
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 24, 2016, 02:21:09 am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probability

The point is/was that BETTING is a POOR way of judging the outcome.
It shows what people THINK will happen, rather than statistically analyzing (e.g. Polls), what is likely to happen.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 24, 2016, 02:49:33 am
Looking like a Brexit it is.

Of course it could change, but around 04:00 GMT, some of the big cities are in (Edinburgh, which is most of Scotland) and turnout has been lower than expected in the remain areas, and win margins have been lower.

On the flip side, in places like Newcastle, the vote was MUCH closer than expected, and in some leave areas, the win was by a substantially higher margin than expected.

News reports from some insiders are that the UK gov't is anticipating an Brexit win, and on the BBC news they are reporting the leave campaign are saying they believe they have likely won.

The big unknown is London - where a huge number of the population of Britain lives.  That outweighs Scotland, Wales and all the non-contiguous lands.  On the other hand, Northern England has swung Brexit quite a lot harder than it was expected.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 24, 2016, 03:02:11 am


The point is/was that BETTING is a POOR way of judging the outcome.
It shows what people THINK will happen, rather than statistically analyzing (e.g. Polls), what is likely to happen.

The polls are already factored in the betting odds.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 24, 2016, 03:06:41 am


The point is/was that BETTING is a POOR way of judging the outcome.
It shows what people THINK will happen, rather than statistically analyzing (e.g. Polls), what is likely to happen.

The polls are already factored in the betting odds.

I'm NOT a big fan of betting odds.

It was realized and generally accepted, that in this case the polls were too close to call (before the day of voting), so there was not really a reliable source of information (BEFOREHAND), as regards the overall outcome. (Assuming time machines etc are not applicable).
tl;dr
Polls were just about neck and neck, so overall result was both unknown and difficult to predict. Although Remain was a tiny/small fraction ahead in the polls, typically.

Even now (this exact second), although Leave/Brexit is winning. It is still NOT certain.
But probably Leave/Brexit will win, I guess.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Macbeth on June 24, 2016, 03:11:13 am
No need to watch the polls, just watch THIS (http://www.forexlive.com/livecharts?tvwidgetsymbol=FX%3AGBPUSD) and you'll know the up to date direction that the vote is swinging. Click on the "1" in the top left corner of the chart to get the 1 minute candle view.
Fucking hell, I'm only glad I got some gold in the swiss bullionvault to counteract this huge drop... 1.50 to 1.35 !!! crazy! Meanwhile betfair was really slow on the uptake with 1.5 for remain vs 3 for leave. I did gamble a few quid on brexit a good week ago.

Just checked and remain is now 10.0 remain vs 1.1 on betfair so they have finally woke up!

Haha! Take that Rompuy and your unleaded solder!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 24, 2016, 03:40:29 am
It's OFFICIAL now. (Source BBC live).

Leave/Brexit has won.

Remain CAN'T win now, as it can't have enough votes.

EDIT: Or I'm misunderstanding. The BBC forecasts that Leave/Brexit has won.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tautech on June 24, 2016, 03:54:50 am
It's OFFICIAL now. (Source BBC live).

Leave/Brexit has won.

Remain CAN'T win now, as it can't have enough votes.
First looked at this thread today and it's 37 pages.  :o

I clearly remember the disgust of my parents and grandparents 45+ years ago when the UK joined the EEC, then  many of the primary producers in NZ felt disgusted too having supported the mother country in 2 world wars we felt abandoned and our exports to the UK diminished over the decades to the point that even now they are less than they were decades ago. There were some small benefits for us, we were no longer obliged to import crappy British cars in the numbers of before.
Now the UK's experiment seems over  :-//  and european domination has not eventuated I wonder where their allegiances will lie now.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: mtdoc on June 24, 2016, 03:58:58 am

A few days ago the head of political betting at Ladbrokes said the betting odds were being skewed by a smaller number but much larger sized bets on remain. 75% of money was on remain but much more were betting on Leave - so that may explain some of the discrepancy.

If this result holds it remains to seen if Brexit actually happens. Remember the Greeks voted for a Grexit...

Regardless, the reaction of the financial markets lays bare the larger issue here:  Despite the focus of the media on the immigration issue, the real issue for the elites is that a Brexit means they are losing control of the masses and their ability to control commerce and capital. If Brexit happens it will likely mean the beginning of the end of ability of the ECB (and US Fed as well) to control and contain events.  Whether you see that as a good or bad thing depends on your perspective - -  tolerance for short term economic pain in order to preserve the longer term viability of free markets versus hoping that the last 8 years of debt fueled monetary kool-aid will somehow be able to be maintained indefinitely.

I'm in the former camp.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 24, 2016, 04:11:31 am
First looked at this thread today and it's 37 pages.  :o

I clearly remember the disgust of my parents and grandparents 45+ years ago when the UK joined the EEC, then  many of the primary producers in NZ felt disgusted too having supported the mother country in 2 world wars we felt abandoned and our exports to the UK diminished over the decades to the point that even now they are less than they were decades ago. There were some small benefits for us, we were no longer obliged to import crappy British cars in the numbers of before.
Now the UK's experiment seems over  :-//  and european domination has not eventuated I wonder where their allegiances will lie now.  :popcorn:

Yes, I'm embarrassed with how terrible some of those early cars were. Apparently it was a combination of bad management and the work force being very dis-interested in doing a good job (some blame the unions).

This result may change future allegiances, so maybe New Zealand will benefit from this.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 24, 2016, 04:14:15 am
If this result holds it remains to seen if Brexit actually happens. Remember the Greeks voted for a Grexit...

It would not surprise me either.

The vote (so far), is rather close (probably less than 52% (approx) leave), and it is badly damaging to the EU. The British Prime minister (David Cameron) was keen to Remain.

So there could be some kind of attempt to keep the EU together, maybe with new offers/changes or something. Because the EU is also worried that other major EU player countries may also get referendums, which may also choose to leave. Potentially dramatically changing the EU.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 24, 2016, 04:16:36 am
Bookmakers' odds DO NOT reflect the probability of an outcome.  They reflect how the bookie is needing to balance his book.

A bookie aims to have the correct amount of money on each outcome such as that he always makes a profit (due to the overround).  If too much money is going on result A, the odds are decreased to discourage money going that way, and increase on B to tempt money that way to balance the book.

Source.  My Uncle was a bookie all his life, I remember being taught this as a kid  :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics_of_bookmaking
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: ez24 on June 24, 2016, 04:19:20 am
I guess the end of the world is near
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 24, 2016, 04:20:20 am
The British Prime minister (David Cameron) was keen to Remain.



Nah, Dave is a Brexiteer, as is Jezza.  They were both brow-beaten into pretending to want to stay.  They will both be pleased with this result.  :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 24, 2016, 04:20:39 am
Bookmakers' odds DO NOT reflect the probability of an outcome.  They reflect how the bookie is needing to balance his book.

A bookie aims to have the correct amount of money on each outcome such as that he always makes a profit (due to the overround).  If too much money is going on result A, the odds are decreased to discourage money going that way, and increase on B to tempt money that way to balance the book.

Source.  My Uncle was a bookie all his life, I remember being taught this as a kid  :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics_of_bookmaking

That's exactly what I thought. I've seen amazing horse racing mechanical (computer like) machines, which automatically make the adjustments to the "odds", during the betting, before races. (Probably a TV program).

tl;dr
It does NOT represent the true statistical probabilities.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 24, 2016, 04:25:35 am
The British Prime minister (David Cameron) was keen to Remain.



Nah, Dave is a Brexiteer, as is Jezza.  They were both brow-beaten into pretending to want to stay.  They will both be pleased with this result.  :)

I would NOT be surprised if Jezza wants to leave.

But surely Dave wants to remain.

E.g. Source:

Quote
EU referendum: I'm no secret Brexiteer, says David Cameron

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36396066 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36396066)

EDIT:
On the other hand. Some sources say/think he has been lying, about things like immigration (figures). So you could be right.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 24, 2016, 04:26:42 am
I guess the end of the world is near
The potential downside if we go through with it is, ahem, rather large.

We could just have done the most monumentally stupid thing in recent political history.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: ez24 on June 24, 2016, 04:28:14 am
Black Friday tomorrow  :-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: JPortici on June 24, 2016, 04:46:13 am
what if..
 :-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Towger on June 24, 2016, 04:48:56 am
In the words of Anne Robinson ' Goodbye '.

BBC 4 Are busy going through who should resign, and if Scotland and Northern Ireland should have their own referendum to leave the UK.

Meanwhile I am getting push notifications from RTE that sterling has fallen to a 30+ year low.

Interesting time a head.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Macbeth on June 24, 2016, 05:06:34 am
Please welcome us back Kiwis, Ozzies, and Hosers. Let's not forget the West Indies, Hong Kong, India, most of Africa, and all the other former colonies (USA too!). Let's get back to a commonwealth trading partnership without EU intervention.  :-+
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tautech on June 24, 2016, 05:12:14 am
Please welcome us back Kiwis, Ozzies, and Hosers. Let's not forget the West Indies, Hong Kong, India, most of Africa, and all the other former colonies (USA too!). Let's get back to a commonwealth trading partnership without EU intervention.  :-+
:-DD
What have you got to offer.....not immigrants I hope.  :scared:
Better cars?  :-\
Kate's sister.  :-+
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Macbeth on June 24, 2016, 05:15:17 am
Please welcome us back Kiwis, Ozzies, and Hosers. Let's not forget the West Indies, Hong Kong, India, most of Africa, and all the other former colonies (USA too!). Let's get back to a commonwealth trading partnership without EU intervention.  :-+
:-DD
What have you got to offer.....not immigrants I hope.  :scared:
Better cars?  :-\
Kate's sister.  :-+
Dolly the sheep?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Mr.B on June 24, 2016, 05:18:02 am
^ Crash.

(Is this the one word game?)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on June 24, 2016, 05:20:08 am
Bookmakers' odds DO NOT reflect the probability of an outcome.  They reflect how the bookie is needing to balance his book.

A bookie aims to have the correct amount of money on each outcome such as that he always makes a profit (due to the overround).  If too much money is going on result A, the odds are decreased to discourage money going that way, and increase on B to tempt money that way to balance the book.

Source.  My Uncle was a bookie all his life, I remember being taught this as a kid  :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics_of_bookmaking

Bookies.... Insurance companies.... it's all the same.  They have a business to run.  Since it all revolves around money. they must make sure they make a profit no matter which way events unfold.

I thought it was obvious any outcome was not - and could not be - influenced by the location of money.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on June 24, 2016, 05:21:37 am
Never seen a McLaren 650S ?

Only on Top Gear.  :(
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tautech on June 24, 2016, 05:22:56 am
Please welcome us back Kiwis, Ozzies, and Hosers. Let's not forget the West Indies, Hong Kong, India, most of Africa, and all the other former colonies (USA too!). Let's get back to a commonwealth trading partnership without EU intervention.  :-+
:-DD
What have you got to offer.....not immigrants I hope.  :scared:
Better cars?  :-\
Kate's sister.  :-+

Never seen a McLaren 650S ?
Probably have with Clarkson's fat bum in it.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Macbeth on June 24, 2016, 05:25:02 am
I'm hoping all those 9 out of 10 economists that predicted much needed insane house price falls due to brexit are right...  But I'm not holding my breath :palm:

I wonder if the remain politicos pushing that one really thought it was a good way of swaying the vote their way... Shows how out of touch they are... Normal people don't think insane house prices are good because they have to live in them and have to pay more to move into new ones. Their kids can't afford to move out.

Only feckless fuckwits who use the house as a line of credit and the brilliant rentier class "entrepreneurs" think insane house prices are a good thing.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 24, 2016, 05:37:10 am
This a golden opportunity for giving shelter to corporation who following to trade with CEE.

Spain are sold  :-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 24, 2016, 05:39:43 am
Money

The worst it get, the better excuse the politicians will have to not actually enact an exit (remember, this is an advisory referendum). There is a clear interest for some forces to make it as bad as possible to drive a point. We had something similar here with budget sequestration in 2013.

This battle was won but the war is not over yet.

Anyway, hats off to the British people for the courage to defend the sovereignty of their country once again, this time despite their leaders.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 24, 2016, 05:50:22 am
I'm hoping all those 9 out of 10 economists that predicted much needed insane house price falls due to brexit are right...  But I'm not holding my breath :palm:

I wonder if the remain politicos pushing that one really thought it was a good way of swaying the vote their way... Shows how out of touch they are... Normal people don't think insane house prices are good because they have to live in them and have to pay more to move into new ones. Their kids can't afford to move out.

Only feckless fuckwits who use the house as a line of credit and the brilliant rentier class "entrepreneurs" think insane house prices are a good thing.
Oh, house prices will fall allright.

They will fall because of the huge recession that we have just imposed upon ourselves - in a recession no one much wants to move unless they have to and low demand leads to low prices.

That is not the same as solving the housing crisis FFS.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 24, 2016, 05:54:45 am
In any case this is a big signal to the EU that they should think about the future and that a lot of people are fed up with their unlimited expansion and ambitions without consolidating now and then. There are indeed enough problems as is and a strong country like the Uk leaving will not make it easier.
The negotiations for leaving will not become easy since it probably will be used as a signal back to other eu countries not to consider to leave as well which would be a poor blackmail scam if you ask me personally.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 24, 2016, 06:01:46 am
Oh, house prices will fall allright.

They will fall because of the huge recession that we have just imposed upon ourselves - in a recession no one much wants to move unless they have to and low demand leads to low prices.

That is not the same as solving the housing crisis FFS.

Oh get a grip of yourself. FFS.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 24, 2016, 06:43:15 am
EU members announced they'll hold the first meetings without UK on the summit next week.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on June 24, 2016, 06:56:38 am
EU members announced they'll hold the first meetings without UK on the summit next week.

Seems a bit premature, doesn't it?

The vote is one thing - but they haven't left yet.


.... or am I missing something?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Macbeth on June 24, 2016, 07:15:27 am
Oh, house prices will fall allright.

They will fall because of the huge recession that we have just imposed upon ourselves - in a recession no one much wants to move unless they have to and low demand leads to low prices.

That is not the same as solving the housing crisis FFS.
The only recession that can possibly happen is the one you talk yourself into. George Osborne came up with an absurd "budget" - thankfully not one we have to vote for. But the markets appear to (for these couple of days) be playing along with his retarded fear mongering.

Clearly we have to get rid of shitty prime ministers and chancellors who have no idea how to run the country post a democratic withdrawal from the EU.

Meanwhile - every person, every business carries on as usual... All these Etonian political primadonnas really are just highly paid window dressing to the rest of the real world. Trade will carry on as usual. Even when it is declared by Rompuy & EU co as illegal, it will still carry on unimpeded (except in Germany - we have many accounts of the Gestapo customs there). I mean just like nobody stops anything from China despite a CE or C.E mark
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 24, 2016, 07:20:30 am
Seems a bit premature, doesn't it?
The vote is one thing - but they haven't left yet.
... or am I missing something?
Probably they want to meet and discuss what the next steps are and perhaps already a forecast for the conditions they are going to impose upon the UK for leaving.
They have to have consensus between themselves first before they can offer it to the UK.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 24, 2016, 07:24:12 am
The only recession that can possibly happen is the one you talk yourself into. George Osborne came up with an absurd "budget" - thankfully not one we have to vote for. But the markets appear to (for these couple of days) be playing along with his retarded fear mongering.
That is true of any recession.

I hope that you are right - that it is just an over-reaction and that the markets will correct in a few days, but it is not clear to me that is all it will take.

We will see what Cameron says in his statement. I don't see that he can survive as PM for very long but I really don't fancy the alternatives.

EDIT: Oh, that was prescient. I just saw that he has resigned.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: StuUK on June 24, 2016, 08:03:22 am
EU members announced they'll hold the first meetings without UK on the summit next week.

Seems a bit premature, doesn't it?

The vote is one thing - but they haven't left yet.


.... or am I missing something?

Nope, it'll be a little while before we formally announce our intention.....
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: SteveyG on June 24, 2016, 08:05:30 am
I'm hoping all those 9 out of 10 economists that predicted much needed insane house price falls due to brexit are right...  But I'm not holding my breath :palm:

Falling house prices is the last thing we need.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 24, 2016, 08:05:38 am
EDIT: Oh, that was prescient. I just saw that he has resigned.
There goes your last straw of goodwill in the EU for the exit negotiations.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on June 24, 2016, 08:12:55 am
Turkeys do vote for Christmas.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 24, 2016, 08:19:31 am
I'm hoping all those 9 out of 10 economists that predicted much needed insane house price falls due to brexit are right...  But I'm not holding my breath :palm:

Falling house prices is the last thing we need.
We need the heat to come out of the housing market, just not this way.

EDIT: Oh, that was prescient. I just saw that he has resigned.
There goes your last straw of goodwill in the EU for the exit negotiations.
It was, I think, inevitable. At least a resignation is better for political stability than a vote of no confidence.

Turkeys do vote for Christmas.
And Americans for Trump

I feel I have had a Chinese curse (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_you_live_in_interesting_times) enacted upon me
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Zero999 on June 24, 2016, 08:20:45 am
Despite all my cynicism about the EU I actually voted to stay because: I don't like those who are on the leave campaign, there's always a great risk with any change and whilst we're still in the EU we can influence their rules.

However I'm not that devastated about leaving. Part of me wanted to vote leave, even though I've recently bought a house and will risk going into negative equity.

By the way: why is the closing date for this poll the 10th July? Perhaps it should be closed today.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: StuUK on June 24, 2016, 08:25:00 am
Despite all my cynicism about the EU I actually voted to stay because: I don't like those who are on the leave campaign, there's always a great risk with any change and whilst we're still in the EU we can influence their rules.

However I'm not that devastated about leaving. Part of me wanted to vote leave, even though I've recently bought a house and will risk going into negative equity.

By the way: why is the closing date for this poll the 10th July? Perhaps it should be closed today.

Unfortunately I think a lot of votes were nothing to do with the issues and more to do with personalities...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on June 24, 2016, 08:28:37 am
So we have a weaker EU. I know someone in Moscow that is going to be celebrating tonight. And a certain mr Trump as well.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: AntiProtonBoy on June 24, 2016, 08:47:07 am
Bunch of chavs wanting to live out the colonial power fantasies of the past.

 :palm: YOU DUN GOOFED BRITAIN

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: StuUK on June 24, 2016, 09:09:15 am
Bunch of chavs wanting to live out the colonial power fantasies of the past.

 :palm: YOU DUN GOOFED BRITAIN

it's unfortunate that a bunch of lazy ass brits with no work ethic think they are voting to remove 'foreigners' taking jobs that they are too lazy to do anyway. What they fail to understand it that it will have no effect and it never would. f*ing idiots!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rolycat on June 24, 2016, 09:23:19 am
EU members announced they'll hold the first meetings without UK on the summit next week.

And the French at least will be keen to punish the UK pour encourager les autres.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 24, 2016, 09:26:04 am
Funny, for as much as it's the Remain crowd that accuses the Leave voters as being intolerant, hateful, bigoted and angry... it seems the anger in this thread is only from the Remain folk.

I notice the same on other forums.  I hear the same words and same sentiments... racists!  idiots!  xenphobes!  They have set us back years!  Worldwide economic collapse is nigh!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rolycat on June 24, 2016, 09:41:13 am
Funny, for as much as it's the Remain crowd that accuses the Leave voters as being intolerant, hateful, bigoted and angry... it seems the anger in this thread is only from the Remain folk.
Prior to the result, some Leave campaigners undoubtedly were intolerant, hateful and bigoted. This tended to put the many who weren't any of those things on the back foot when it came to exchanging insults.

This morning there is unlikely to be much anger from the Leave camp; they are too busy celebrating.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: RGB255_0_0 on June 24, 2016, 09:44:38 am
Well done! Idiots.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: daqq on June 24, 2016, 09:48:46 am
Found this on facebook today  ;D
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on June 24, 2016, 09:49:28 am
EU members announced they'll hold the first meetings without UK on the summit next week.
And the French at least will be keen to punish the UK pour encourager les autres.
Not so much punish as not being able to give the UK any special treatment. If others notice they can leave and get a good deal out of it that would send the wrong signal (from the EU perspective), so EU can't afford to give the UK easy access to the inner market, for example. It will suck both for EU and the UK so no-one is going to do it out of malice.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 24, 2016, 09:59:34 am
Nicely done, British voters.

Now, see how the remain campaign is unable to follow its own advise to others: to behave like civilized and tolerant and welcoming people.

:)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: chris_leyson on June 24, 2016, 09:59:54 am
I'm not surprised looking at the results, I had a feeling that the vote would be regional, with the relatively prospersous south voting to remain and less well off areas voting to leave. I suspect the whole immigration issue played a big part unfortunately, in or out of the EU immigration isn't going to change. I also suspect that some Labour voters have become disillusioned and shifted their allegiance.
British politics has sunken to an all time low and there will be another round of complete bull shit from all parties in the up and coming general election.
Will EDF cancell or moth ball Hinkley Point, it's run into serious engineering issues, will the Swansea tidal barage be scrapped.  Those are only two major engineering projects I could think of, we will have to wait and see.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 24, 2016, 10:00:41 am
EU members announced they'll hold the first meetings without UK on the summit next week.

And the French at least will be keen to punish the UK pour encourager les autres.
The EU wasn't a jail for UK. You'll be let out politely. And the negotiations will aim to set up good relations with an important market and country outside of the union.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 24, 2016, 10:06:39 am
EU members announced they'll hold the first meetings without UK on the summit next week.

Seems a bit premature, doesn't it?

The vote is one thing - but they haven't left yet.


.... or am I missing something?

UK will be part of the summit. But the first meetings without UK are planned during the summit.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Towger on June 24, 2016, 10:13:25 am


Worldwide economic collapse is nigh!

Don't worry Mr D. Trump is in Scotland proclaiming his and America's support for independent Britain when he becomes president.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on June 24, 2016, 10:26:51 am
Seems stock markets around the world are going apeshit.

Another premature reaction, IMO.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on June 24, 2016, 10:27:47 am
Worldwide economic collapse is nigh!
Don't worry Mr D. Trump is in Scotland proclaiming his and America's support for independent Britain when he becomes president.
No doubt, Britain can count on President V. Putin as well!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: madires on June 24, 2016, 10:36:07 am
I feel very sorry for those who wanted to stay in the EU. I know several British, mostly former colleagues and contractors. It's so :palm:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: HackedFridgeMagnet on June 24, 2016, 10:45:19 am
Ignorant outsider here.
Sorry if this has already been discussed, but its a long thread.

UK already had monetary independence.
So what will be the differences? Especially the economic ones which were campaigned upon.
Need to negotiate trade deals?
Tax laws suddenly changeing?
No freedom to work across the Channel.
IDK.

also. Do you think the catchy 'BREXIT' was worth a percentage point to the leavers?


Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Buriedcode on June 24, 2016, 10:55:44 am
I have been tempted to post here for weeks - not that I intended to (or could) influence anyone.  But I genuinely believed it would go in favour of remaining.  Imagine my surprise when I flipped on the TV this morning :(

The reason I think many 'remainians' have been hostile is because of frustration at the same old arguments from the other side: "need to curb immigration", "EU pushing us around", "We want Britain to be great again!" and the result will only impact on one of those (clue, its not the first or third). The worst was several neighbours (who are retired) claiming they wanted Britain to be like it was when they were growing up.  I had to bite my lip because I couldn't believe relatively intelligent people honestly think we can go back in time.  And I don't see why the EU would try to stop refugees or dare I say 'illegal' immigrants leaving the EU, they're far more concerned with them entering and moving around within it.  So if anything, surely it would make it harder for the UK to 'stem the tide' (that is of course assuming that we get "too many" despite no official figures coming out from either camp, it is merely assumed that its too much and damaging to our economy, when for the most part all the evidence I've seen points to the contrary http://iasservices.org.uk/how-does-immigration-benefit-the-uk/ (http://iasservices.org.uk/how-does-immigration-benefit-the-uk/)).

I think the UK government will fight to remain in the EU single market, but what happens in the interim I haven't read any predictions except it will have to trade under the WTO rules. 

I'm fairly sure the vast majority of voters, from either side, didn't actually know what to expect which is why the campaign to leave was so loud and nationalist, and the leavers scare mongering - the powers that be were uncertain, and so fell back on the main driving force of public voting - short sighted, emotional and political persuasions.   The trouble with referendums is they must take a very complicated issue with all manner of possible consequences and break it down to a 'yes/no'. Some have stuck by the 'well, its simple, we're either in, or out!' and these are the people - those who think everything is black and white - that piss me off the most.  So they might as well have just flipped a coin. 

Ultimately the public is responsible for what the government does, but I'm willing to bet, just like in government.. if things go well those who voted to leave will be loud, if things don't - they'll refuse to accept responsibility, claim they were misled or simply keep quiet.  And its likely that it'll be a heady mix of both. 

I'm curious as to what little known or relatively minor laws/restrictions the EU impose on the UK will change, and what will come of it.  Will all the problems people have with Brussels, they did stand firm with regards to Google, Microsoft, and Apple, and also capped the charges phones companies make.  I guess we'll find out in the following few years!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: onesixright on June 24, 2016, 10:58:02 am
To call victory when you barley have a majority isn't a victory imo. Its means still a lot of people are disagreeing. That goes both ways.

Democracy is nice and cool, if your on the side of the majority.


Lets hope something positive comes out of it...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Buriedcode on June 24, 2016, 10:59:08 am
... Do you think the catchy 'BREXIT' was worth a percentage point to the leavers?

Yes.  Lord knows we're a fickle bunch, I'm willing to bet "celebrities" also played a huge part on both sides.  Sorry for the cynicism but when it comes to 'entering the poll booth' I swear people forget almost everything except buzzwords.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rolycat on June 24, 2016, 11:02:21 am
So what will be the differences?

I don't think anyone has any real idea what the consequences will be, which is why the financial markets are in such turmoil.

Boris Johnson, one of the leading Brexiteers, has just made what he no doubt hopes is a statesmanlike speech emphasising his desire for the United Kingdom to remain very much a part of Europe.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: AndyC_772 on June 24, 2016, 11:04:21 am
Not so much punish as not being able to give the UK any special treatment. If others notice they can leave and get a good deal out of it that would send the wrong signal (from the EU perspective), so EU can't afford to give the UK easy access to the inner market, for example. It will suck both for EU and the UK so no-one is going to do it out of malice.

I think this is one of the great dangers; that politicians in all countries will make decisions that "send out a signal that...", or allow them to "be seen to be doing...", or in which they are "thought of as..." whatever. Never mind what the actual issues are, or the real, solid, practical consequences for those affected. It's all about wanting to be thought of as seen to be sending out whatever kind of message is politically fashionable this week.  |O :palm:

We've already seen a lot of this in the run-up to the vote. We (the UK) have heard "you still won't get such-and-such", or "if you leave, you won't have this, that or the other", or "we won't let you do <whatever>". It's exasperating. So many people all indvidually trying to save face, or to send out another sodding 'message'.

The decision has been taken. Our pro-EU PM has declared he'll resign, and no doubt others will follow. Now can we please just get on and negotiate how best to proceed from here without all the bluff and bluster?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: StuUK on June 24, 2016, 11:16:51 am

I'm curious as to what little known or relatively minor laws/restrictions the EU impose on the UK will change, and what will come of it.  Will all the problems people have with Brussels, they did stand firm with regards to Google, Microsoft, and Apple, and also capped the charges phones companies make.  I guess we'll find out in the following few years!

The main ones will stay as they are already enshrined under UK law, they don't suddenly disappear... There are some several thousand smaller regs that will need to be revisited.

Did you vote?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Augustus on June 24, 2016, 11:22:44 am
Applause from master moron Trump and the Kremlin, that's the moment when you realize you messed it up big time. Congrats Brits, I'm sure the grass outside of the EU will be much greener and rainbows everywhere. Best of luck, Bye...  :palm:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 24, 2016, 11:32:18 am
The decision has been taken. Our pro-EU PM has declared he'll resign, and no doubt others will follow. Now can we please just get on and negotiate how best to proceed from here without all the bluff and bluster?
The Scottish and Irish are already sharpening their knifes to become independant from the UK in order to stay in the EU. What will Gibraltar do? This may as well be the end of the UK as we know it.

And even then seeing is believing. According to the news the EU wants the papers delivered next week but Mr Johnson wants to take things slower. Cameron made a smart move by resigning so he is not involved in the shit storm that is about to land.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Towger on June 24, 2016, 11:37:12 am
Appart from the companies who mainly trade in Europe, farmers will be the next most affected.  Many of them rely on yearly large handouts from Brussels.  For some it is up to 60% of their income.  This is what the bulk of the money paid to Europe is used for.  One can only assume these repayments will have to be replaced by local ones, if the government want to keep food prices etc at the same levels.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Howardlong on June 24, 2016, 11:49:59 am
I'm hoping all those 9 out of 10 economists that predicted much needed insane house price falls due to brexit are right...  But I'm not holding my breath :palm:

Falling house prices is the last thing we need.

Actually, where I live that's exactly what's needed. You need to be earning in excess of £150k to be able to afford a £500,000 mortgage on a studio apartment. That is largely due to speculative foreign investors, many of whom don't even rent out their places, they just sit on them, enjoying capital growth while looking forward to liquidating the asset at some time in the future. I am sure this is true for other hotspots around the world, I believe Australia actually brought in legislation to limit this kind of investment.

There is some fear around mortgage rates increasing while property prices decrease since the Brexit. A base rate increase has been on the cards for some time irrespective. What I would say though is that a correction at least gives more people a chance who'd otherwise not be in a such a position, largely irrespective of any base rate rise.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 24, 2016, 11:55:58 am
I'm hoping all those 9 out of 10 economists that predicted much needed insane house price falls due to brexit are right...  But I'm not holding my breath :palm:

Falling house prices is the last thing we need.
Actually, where I live that's exactly what's needed. You need to be earning in excess of £150k to be able to afford a £500,000 mortgage on a studio apartment.
This is typical 'kicking against large capital' thinking. I'm quite sure there are only a handful of investors like this. For the majority of the home owners their retirement fund is their home. Falling house prices will mean many people will see their retirement fund go down the drain which in turn will have dire consequences for the (local) economy because these people will have much less to spend.

You'll also need to take inflation into account. My own home also increased in value but my interest rate has been less than 2% over the period (>10 years) I own it.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: AndyC_772 on June 24, 2016, 11:57:55 am
And even then seeing is believing. According to the news the EU wants the papers delivered next week but Mr Johnson wants to take things slower.

That's fine. I don't doubt for a moment that a speedy resolution would be perceived as best for the remaining EU members, but that's no longer the overriding concern. The whole point of the referendum was, after all, about regaining the ability for the UK - and not anyone else - to make decisions about what's best for the UK.

I suspect this will cease to be an issue once some of the individual people involved get over themselves.

Quote
Cameron made a smart move by resigning so he is not involved in the shit storm that is about to land.

Of course; we couldn't have a leader entrusted to do something he's so publicly spoken out against doing at all.

Not only that, but let's not forget that before the referendum he was sent to Europe to try and make a last ditch attempt to negotiate a better deal for the UK, but he came back empty handed. (Was this reported outside the UK at all? It was major news here).

Both he and other EU leaders knew the referendum was going to happen, and that if he didn't come back with enough really solid, worthwhile concessions to alleviate concerns back home, there was a good chance we'd vote to leave. Given the slim margin by which the 'leave' vote won, he wouldn't have had to sway many people.

Yet despite that, he failed, and IMHO that alone made him a poor choice to represent us in Europe.

Moreover, his failure also made it very clear that even when the threat of the UK leaving was looming, other EU leaders weren't prepared to listen and to accept the need for change. That first wake-up call didn't work. Maybe the second will?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 24, 2016, 12:01:34 pm
The decision has been taken. Our pro-EU PM has declared he'll resign, and no doubt others will follow. Now can we please just get on and negotiate how best to proceed from here without all the bluff and bluster?
With politicians involved? - unlikely.

Boris Johnson, one of the leading Brexiteers, has just made what he no doubt hopes is a statesmanlike speech emphasising his desire for the United Kingdom to remain very much a part of Europe.
We have just voted to leave, the campaign stressed the importance of controlling our own borders for which we need to leave pretty unambiguously - if we wind up with some EEA membership deal with acceptance of free movement of labour what have we actually achieved?

I note that Cameron has decided against invoking Article 50 immediately. That is not the position he took during the campaign.

While I felt that we should stay, and I still do, we have voted to leave. We should bloody well get on with it.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 24, 2016, 12:07:32 pm
Moreover, his failure also made it very clear that even when the threat of the UK leaving was looming, other EU leaders weren't prepared to listen and to accept the need for change. That first wake-up call didn't work. Maybe the second will?
What makes you think the EU can't work without the UK? In the end countries are free to leave and the UK already had a special status (like closed borders). At some point you have to say goodbye to one and other if you can't agree on terms to work together.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: kaz911 on June 24, 2016, 12:17:55 pm
Moreover, his failure also made it very clear that even when the threat of the UK leaving was looming, other EU leaders weren't prepared to listen and to accept the need for change. That first wake-up call didn't work. Maybe the second will?
What makes you think the EU can't work without the UK? In the end countries are free to leave and the UK already had a special status (like closed borders). At some point you have to say goodbye to one and other if you can't agree on terms to work together.

The wish to leave will spread. Politicians in other countries are already asking for referendums. And a lot of prior referendums have been run on fear and peoples fear of leaving - where now less people will worry so more referendums will vote leave.

I think the vote was stupid because it was Black & White (In/Out) - should have been "In/Out or Out unless EU reform" - but as the vote is only an advisory to the government and not legally binding  - UK could still chose to stay - but it would require some major rework of how EU works.

But lets see what happens once the dust settles. Right now the EU bosses are shaking in fear and coming up with all kind of demands to the UK and threats of retaliation.

But EU DESERVED a kick in the b*tt but got a kick in the b*lls

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 24, 2016, 12:21:58 pm
So what will be the differences?

I don't think anyone has any real idea what the consequences will be, which is why the financial markets are in such turmoil.

Boris Johnson, one of the leading Brexiteers, has just made what he no doubt hopes is a statesmanlike speech emphasising his desire for the United Kingdom to remain very much a part of Europe.

Financial markets LOVE turmoil !!
That's when they make the most money.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kalvin on June 24, 2016, 12:24:10 pm
What do you think, will David Cameron become Sir David Cameron or not? That will tell everything.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: G0HZU on June 24, 2016, 12:24:43 pm
We're bound to come last in the Eurovision Song Contest next year...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 24, 2016, 12:25:29 pm
The decision has been taken. Our pro-EU PM has declared he'll resign, and no doubt others will follow. Now can we please just get on and negotiate how best to proceed from here without all the bluff and bluster?
With politicians involved? - unlikely.

Boris Johnson, one of the leading Brexiteers, has just made what he no doubt hopes is a statesmanlike speech emphasising his desire for the United Kingdom to remain very much a part of Europe.
We have just voted to leave, the campaign stressed the importance of controlling our own borders for which we need to leave pretty unambiguously - if we wind up with some EEA membership deal with acceptance of free movement of labour what have we actually achieved?

I note that Cameron has decided against invoking Article 50 immediately. That is not the position he took during the campaign.

While I felt that we should stay, and I still do, we have voted to leave. We should bloody well get on with it.

That's what the eurocrats want.
Therefore it's smarter to use that as a negotiating lever.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 24, 2016, 12:26:41 pm
What do you think, will David Cameron become Sir David Cameron or not? That will tell everything.
It's pretty much guaranteed as an Ex PM isn't it?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 24, 2016, 12:27:07 pm
Moreover, his failure also made it very clear that even when the threat of the UK leaving was looming, other EU leaders weren't prepared to listen and to accept the need for change. That first wake-up call didn't work. Maybe the second will?
What makes you think the EU can't work without the UK? In the end countries are free to leave and the UK already had a special status (like closed borders). At some point you have to say goodbye to one and other if you can't agree on terms to work together.
I think the vote was stupid because it was Black & White (In/Out) - should have been "In/Out or Out unless EU reform" - but as the vote is only an advisory to the government and not legally binding  - UK could still chose to stay - but it would require some major rework of how EU works.
Well the way it looks now the UK got itself in a huge mess and it is very unclear whether there really is a real advantage of the UK leaving. Yes, the people of the UK have full control over there country but what good does that do if that means having no work? Seeing your retirement fund go down the drain due to dropping house prices? Increased prices for food and fuel? Having to put up with whatever trading rules the US, EU, Russia,  China and OPEC dictate?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: AndyC_772 on June 24, 2016, 12:28:28 pm
I think the vote was stupid because it was Black & White (In/Out) - should have been "In/Out or Out unless EU reform" - but as the vote is only an advisory to the government and not legally binding  - UK could still chose to stay - but it would require some major rework of how EU works.

But we'd already expressed the need for reform, and we were told 'no'.

A vote for "yes, we'll stay, but things really, really need to change now" would just have left politicians arguing for years to come over what constituted enough of a change, and nothing would ever happen besides further ill will and uncertainty.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: FrankD on June 24, 2016, 12:30:22 pm
The good ol' British sausages can now go back to less than 35% meat content.   :-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Homer J Simpson on June 24, 2016, 12:34:57 pm


UK votes to leave the UN.



(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CltTxWzWIAAe8bh.jpg)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 24, 2016, 12:39:04 pm
Quote
I think the UK government will fight to remain in the EU single market

With Cameron gone, it is hard to expect the UK government to follow through on that. They will try to negotiate the best deals they can get now.

I predicted the demise of the Cameron government earlier here, should Brexit materialize. I think you will see the collapse of additional governments in Europe, particularly the left-leaning governments. There is a swing to the right across the continent. Not dissimilar to the time just before the rise of Hitler.

And you can thank all of that to the abuse of power / trust voters had given to the far left politicians over the last decade.

Quote
I'm fairly sure the vast majority of voters, from either side, didn't actually know what to expect

I think the voters know very well what the expect. It is the "experts" that fail to see through the fog of war.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 24, 2016, 12:39:16 pm
@nctnico

What planet are you from ?
The grand EU project has failed.
I voted back in the 70's for a common market NOT some grand unified Europe.
If the Grand Euro fucktards   hadn't been such a bunch of dickheads there would never have been a vote.
I'm SURE that the UK will go from strength to strength.
We are a trading nation it's in our history.
I bet we get on a treat with Germany for starters.

So sit back in your stagnant protectionist EU and watch us move ahead.

PS. The planet is bigger than the EU


 
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Howardlong on June 24, 2016, 12:39:52 pm
I'm hoping all those 9 out of 10 economists that predicted much needed insane house price falls due to brexit are right...  But I'm not holding my breath :palm:

Falling house prices is the last thing we need.
Actually, where I live that's exactly what's needed. You need to be earning in excess of £150k to be able to afford a £500,000 mortgage on a studio apartment.
This is typical 'kicking against large capital' thinking. I'm quite sure there are only a handful of investors like this.

I agree, a handful of speculative investors who own large tranches of property.

Quote
For the majority of the home owners their retirement fund is their home.

Indeed, but as it stands unless you're in the top 0.2% you will not be able to get on the housing ladder.

Quote
Falling house prices will mean many people will see their retirement fund go down the drain which in turn will have dire consequences for the (local) economy because these people will have much less to spend.

No, the 15 to 20% year on year house inflation we've seen in the Capital over the past five years was never sustainable except for speculative investors.

Quote
You'll also need to take inflation into account. My own home also increased in value but my interest rate has been less than 2% over the period (>10 years) I own it.

I would never be in a position now to buy the flat I bought in 1999 for £250k. Current market value is now £1.7m, it passed £1m three or four years ago. Inflation over the same period would value it as just shy of £400k.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Buriedcode on June 24, 2016, 12:40:04 pm
I instinctively want to think that is a fake picture.  But then I saw the word 'Fox'.  Could it just be a typo? nope.  Trump, and many of his supporters still think that parts of Britain are 'under Sharia law' hah
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: chris_leyson on June 24, 2016, 12:41:05 pm
Quote
The good ol' British sausages can now go back to less than 35% meat content.
That reminded me of an old joke, "Walls have ears", they also have trotters, snouts and testicles.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 24, 2016, 12:41:29 pm
The good ol' British sausages can now go back to less than 35% meat content.   :-DD

Nice one.  :-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 24, 2016, 12:42:57 pm
All thats needed now is the politicians ignoring the vote outcome and decide to stay in EU!   Damned if you do, damned if you dont! >:D

UK next PM!
(https://d.ibtimes.co.uk/en/full/1380245/nigel-farage-has-seen-ukip-post-big-gains-local-elections-england.jpg)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: System Error Message on June 24, 2016, 12:51:59 pm
i disagree with UK leaving the EU but the way politicians have been running countries there just isnt any choice. A country ruining itself within the EU ends up bringing down the other countries in it. I have friends who are in 3rd world parts of the EU and they say its much better there, they get much faster internet than the UK cheaper, prices of items are much cheaper and are quite happy to supply other countries with cheaper things from EU instead of china and obviously better quality (food sources untained and clean, better quality items, etc). Instead of outsourcing work to china they should've outsourced it to EU as there are still 3rd world countries there.

Some social/media groups over report issues. I dont get any job offers within the UK not even an interview, all offers come from EU so i wonder whats up with this country.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 24, 2016, 12:54:07 pm
I instinctively want to think that is a fake picture.  But then I saw the word 'Fox'.  Could it just be a typo? nope.  Trump, and many of his supporters still think that parts of Britain are 'under Sharia law' hah
When I was in Luton, I had a bit of such feeling myself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA6XcyXsxXU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA6XcyXsxXU)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 24, 2016, 12:58:19 pm
Quote
I instinctively want to think that is a fake picture.

His resignation is to be expected. As a leader of the remain camp, it is not right for him to act as the caretaker of the country in the aftermath of a leave vote, over-whelming one too.

Cameron did the honorable thing by tendering his resignation. I'm sure it was a difficult decision but he did the right thing for the country, and for himself in the long-run.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kalvin on June 24, 2016, 12:59:42 pm
Voters with better education voted for "Stay" and the voters with less education voted for "Leave". This is a clear indication that the Britain lacks educated people and savings in the education expenses backfired. It is country's interest to provide a good education for as many people as possible.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Zero999 on June 24, 2016, 01:02:42 pm
Increased prices for food and fuel?
Why would food and fuel prices rise?

When we leave we'll be able to get cheaper food and fuel from other non-EU countries. Food is overpriced because of the subsidies EU farmers receive.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 24, 2016, 01:04:14 pm
Quote
This is a clear indication that the Britain lacks educated people and savings in the education expenses backfired.

Not sure what's a big deal with the lack of "educated" people.

I in my life have encountered numerous well educated fools. Equating "educated" to "smart" is foolish, I think.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 24, 2016, 01:08:23 pm
You'll also need to take inflation into account. My own home also increased in value but my interest rate has been less than 2% over the period (>10 years) I own it.
I would never be in a position now to buy the flat I bought in 1999 for £250k. Current market value is now £1.7m, it passed £1m three or four years ago. Inflation over the same period would value it as just shy of £400k.
Still I doubt all house prices in the UK went up nearly 7 times. There will always be 'hotspots' in large cities where people pay crazy money for a wardrobe.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 24, 2016, 01:09:34 pm
Voters with better education voted for "Stay" and the voters with less education voted for "Leave". This is a clear indication that the Britain lacks educated people and savings in the education expenses backfired. It is country's interest to provide a good education for as many people as possible.

True and it's easier if we don't have to spend money on
educating children who don't have english as a first language.
There's also the fact that some of these kids have parents that are religious nut jobs.
 |O

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 24, 2016, 01:14:51 pm
Quote
I instinctively want to think that is a fake picture.

His resignation is to be expected. As a leader of the remain camp, it is not right for him to act as the caretaker of the country in the aftermath of a leave vote, over-whelming one too.

Cameron did the honorable thing by tendering his resignation. I'm sure it was a difficult decision but he did the right thing for the country, and for himself in the long-run.

Bollocks !!.
He resigned to reduce the pending torry party meltdown.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 24, 2016, 01:21:05 pm
You'll also need to take inflation into account. My own home also increased in value but my interest rate has been less than 2% over the period (>10 years) I own it.
I would never be in a position now to buy the flat I bought in 1999 for £250k. Current market value is now £1.7m, it passed £1m three or four years ago. Inflation over the same period would value it as just shy of £400k.
Still I doubt all house prices in the UK went up nearly 7 times. There will always be 'hotspots' in large cities where people pay crazy money for a wardrobe.
Yes they did. A little bit more than 2 years ago my sister bought a house in Milton Keynes for 4x it was sold at the end of 90's, Now she finds herself being super lucky because right now the same house would cost almost 2x of that.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: System Error Message on June 24, 2016, 01:25:11 pm
I instinctively want to think that is a fake picture.  But then I saw the word 'Fox'.  Could it just be a typo? nope.  Trump, and many of his supporters still think that parts of Britain are 'under Sharia law' hah
When I was in Luton, I had a bit of such feeling myself.

That video was made up. Britain first provoked them to do that. Watch the BBC documentary on britain first.

The UK is not under sharia law and i would disagree if britain tried to impose sharia law in any part of it. I investigated many of the religious arguments, claims and so on and found them to be baseless, manipulating words and so on. In the case of religion whenever religion comes to humans they ruin it so there is actually an extremist and moderate of any religion, because some people will go to great lengths to follow religion (i.e. religion will say thieving is wrong, some will kill thieves in order to uphold religion but the religious book didnt say anything about punishing thieves by killing) while some will be reasonable but still follow their religious book without having to kill anyone to follow. If you really wish me to explain the logic of it to you you can ask me in another thread/pm but not this one.

The problem is that some immigrants just come from countries where people do crime such as africa, pakistan, india, china, mexico so when people migrate from there so do the criminals because there lack such criminals here.

In the mean time lets get back on track with this topic. Because the media has been making things seem worse it has made people act in such bad ways to ruin themselves and they think that it is because they were part of the EU that this happened, or that the government didnt know better. Before this vote Britian's debt to GDP ratio was still high but had lowered quite a lot within a few years. Take a look at the global debt index. Some countries like Brunei have 0 debt, some countries have very very low debt to GDP ratio. What matters are 2 things, the debt to GDP ratio and GDP per population. So while china could have a low debt to GDP ratio their GDP per population really sucks. One of the issues is with greed and people who have no choice but to feed it. I always say dont buy overpriced items. If something is overpriced than dont buy it because you will just be making things worse. Dont feed the greed and dont pay (as in money) for other peoples mistakes.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: StuUK on June 24, 2016, 01:31:38 pm
Voters with better education voted for "Stay" and the voters with less education voted for "Leave". This is a clear indication that the Britain lacks educated people and savings in the education expenses backfired. It is country's interest to provide a good education for as many people as possible.

Unbelievable naivety, in fact your comment demonstrates the type of ignorance that resulted in a leave vote.... FFS  :palm:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 24, 2016, 01:36:03 pm
Quote
i would disagree if britain tried to impose sharia law in any part of it.

you really think that's what people said about sharia law in the UK?

Quote
Because the media has been making things seem worse it has made people act in such bad ways to ruin themselves

If that's really the case, maybe you will advocate shutting down the media at all for their deceits and non-value-add to the society. Or making mass media a crime.

Sounds like you are better off that way, :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 24, 2016, 01:36:27 pm
It is always easy to criticize others.
You all that wanted to leave seem to forget how much already is accomplished, take one currency for a lot of different countries with different wishes and different history , languages and it is almost a miracle how much has been accomplished. Sure it is far from perfect and it will never be perfect.
It probably will take another century before the EZu will feel like one large entity to all its members.
But I am glad that the new souvereign UK will show the rest of the world how it should be done to become a large growing economy again, although I can not find one single thing you have that other countries do not have or does not profit from the EU. Oh yeah fish and chips  ;)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 24, 2016, 01:40:21 pm
I instinctively want to think that is a fake picture.  But then I saw the word 'Fox'.  Could it just be a typo? nope.  Trump, and many of his supporters still think that parts of Britain are 'under Sharia law' hah
When I was in Luton, I had a bit of such feeling myself.

That video was made up. Britain first provoked them to do that.
I completely understand they were provoked (by going with crosses) and I know who Britain first are. That does not change the fact what happened.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: System Error Message on June 24, 2016, 01:43:35 pm
I instinctively want to think that is a fake picture.  But then I saw the word 'Fox'.  Could it just be a typo? nope.  Trump, and many of his supporters still think that parts of Britain are 'under Sharia law' hah
When I was in Luton, I had a bit of such feeling myself.

That video was made up. Britain first provoked them to do that.
I completely understand they were provoked (by going with crosses) and I know who Britain first are. That does not change the fact what happened.

They werent provoked by the crosses, they were provoked by the group such as being blocked, pushed, annoyed. Did you see the muslims in that video coming up to them and being rude or did the video just skip to the part of them being rude. As i said watch the bbc documentary on britain first, they interview the people in that video, they film things as best as they can and actually show the group setting things up to work the way they want.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: continuo on June 24, 2016, 01:47:09 pm
Will be interesting to see whom the separatists now will blame for their own following f*ckups. The EU was an easy target to blame for all and everything. Now they're in need to find new culprits  :popcorn:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kalvin on June 24, 2016, 01:51:07 pm
Voters with better education voted for "Stay" and the voters with less education voted for "Leave". This is a clear indication that the Britain lacks educated people and savings in the education expenses backfired. It is country's interest to provide a good education for as many people as possible.

Unbelievable naivety, in fact your comment demonstrates the type of ignorance that resulted in a leave vote.... FFS  :palm:

Oh no, I just restated what was already known that the people with more education voted for "Stay" and people with less education voted for "Leave". For reference, see for example: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-how-the-results-compare-to-the-uks-educated-old-an/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-how-the-results-compare-to-the-uks-educated-old-an/)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 24, 2016, 01:55:25 pm
You all that wanted to leave seem to forget how much already is accomplished, take one currency for a lot of different countries with different wishes and different history , languages and it is almost a miracle how much has been accomplished.

That's worked out so well for Greece, Spain, Italy and Portugal hasn't it. But so long as you're all right I guess that's OK.

Will be interesting to see whom the separatists now will blame for their own following f*ckups. The EU was an easy target to blame for all and everything. Now they're in need to find new culprits  :popcorn:

Separatists?

But, no more hiding behind the EU and saying "they made us do it!". Accountability is something we just voted for :), something distinctly lacking in the EU.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Howardlong on June 24, 2016, 01:58:07 pm
Voters with better education voted for "Stay" and the voters with less education voted for "Leave". This is a clear indication that the Britain lacks educated people and savings in the education expenses backfired. It is country's interest to provide a good education for as many people as possible.

Unbelievable naivety, in fact your comment demonstrates the type of ignorance that resulted in a leave vote.... FFS  :palm:

If my rather ugly FB feed is to be believed, those are the claims. Both PhDs, one (an educational psycholgist) has stated that it's lack of citizenship education and "they" don't know what they have voted for, and the other eloquently states "they" are "gullible ignorant tw**s". So with that healthy stew of condescension and ad hominem invective, it appears that no-one else can possibly form their own opinion unless it's aligned with their highly educated one. Not at all attractive TBH.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 24, 2016, 02:08:14 pm
When the scotts etc leave UK in good order there must be some border control so arab immigrants cant sneak over the border to England.
In Scandinavia all the press don now is to interview the "oligarchs" who in tuned choir singes the "disaster song" due to brexit. Well of course they
do play that old "theatrical piece" in reality they have moved and moves all the untaxed money to Panama!
Money has no borders only people have!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rolycat on June 24, 2016, 02:10:01 pm
Voters with better education voted for "Stay" and the voters with less education voted for "Leave". This is a clear indication that the Britain lacks educated people and savings in the education expenses backfired. It is country's interest to provide a good education for as many people as possible.

Unbelievable naivety, in fact your comment demonstrates the type of ignorance that resulted in a leave vote.... FFS  :palm:

Oh no, I just restated what was already known that the people with more education voted for "Stay" and people with less education voted for "Leave". For reference, see for example: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-how-the-results-compare-to-the-uks-educated-old-an/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-how-the-results-compare-to-the-uks-educated-old-an/)

What you did was to take statistical data and attribute to it unwarranted conclusions which fit your own opinions. Correlation does not imply causation.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 24, 2016, 02:12:42 pm
There is a swing to the right across the continent. Not dissimilar to the time just before the rise of Hitler.

It's very different this time, they have the EEVBlog forum to discuss and resolve their differences.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 24, 2016, 02:19:38 pm
May I use the international reach of the EEVblog forum to pass this message to my dear continental cousins:

Join us!  Force your domestic politicians to listen to the will of your people.  Free your great and proud nations from the hideous, arrogant, condescending, inefficient, autocratic bureaucracy that is the EU.

The EU simply cannot continue as it is.  As the EU is also resolutely against any kind of serious reform, the only way forward for prosperity of our nations and people is for the EU to disband.

I hope that when I am an old man, I will be boring the kids with stories of how my vote played its part in the beginning of the end of "that strange EU thing they tried back in your day Grandad".

I reckon the Dutch, Danes, and Swedes are the most likely to go next.

 :-+
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kalvin on June 24, 2016, 02:21:40 pm
Voters with better education voted for "Stay" and the voters with less education voted for "Leave". This is a clear indication that the Britain lacks educated people and savings in the education expenses backfired. It is country's interest to provide a good education for as many people as possible.

Unbelievable naivety, in fact your comment demonstrates the type of ignorance that resulted in a leave vote.... FFS  :palm:

Oh no, I just restated what was already known that the people with more education voted for "Stay" and people with less education voted for "Leave". For reference, see for example: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-how-the-results-compare-to-the-uks-educated-old-an/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-how-the-results-compare-to-the-uks-educated-old-an/)

What you did was to take statistical data and attribute to it unwarranted conclusions which fit your own opinions. Correlation does not imply causation.

I maybe wrong, of course. One can also argue that the higher standard of living and higher level of education are correlated but does not imply causality.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 24, 2016, 02:27:12 pm
I just heard on the radio upraise in NorthIrland is on the move to exit UK to rejoin the Irish republic and not EU!
That's quite something!
UK is on its move to dissolve it self, but dont be sad Trump will support England when he becomes US president!

I reckon the Dutch, Danes, and Swedes are the most likely to go next.
 :-+

No way, Swedes are more upset about their government left or right no matter, then EU. Sweden is all about export for its economy else it will collapse. Ofcourse a deliberate ear lent to extremist rights people will tell you otherwise but traditional conservative right people want to stay in EU.
Sweden's biggest trading partner is zee Germany since Gothic times.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 24, 2016, 02:27:21 pm
For the first time in this poll here, the stayers are more than the leavers. Buyer's remorse?

Edit: speling
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: StuUK on June 24, 2016, 02:33:34 pm
Voters with better education voted for "Stay" and the voters with less education voted for "Leave". This is a clear indication that the Britain lacks educated people and savings in the education expenses backfired. It is country's interest to provide a good education for as many people as possible.

Unbelievable naivety, in fact your comment demonstrates the type of ignorance that resulted in a leave vote.... FFS  :palm:

Oh no, I just restated what was already known that the people with more education voted for "Stay" and people with less education voted for "Leave". For reference, see for example: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-how-the-results-compare-to-the-uks-educated-old-an/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-how-the-results-compare-to-the-uks-educated-old-an/)

usual abuse of statistics... I'm sure if I dug into the results I could find all sorts of bullshit indicators and as someone said earlier educated people make stupid decisions too... Frankly I think this whole result is due to simple bigotry whether amongst the educated or not...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 24, 2016, 02:35:23 pm
Voters with better education voted for "Stay" and the voters with less education voted for "Leave". This is a clear indication that the Britain lacks educated people and savings in the education expenses backfired. It is country's interest to provide a good education for as many people as possible.

Unbelievable naivety, in fact your comment demonstrates the type of ignorance that resulted in a leave vote.... FFS  :palm:

Oh no, I just restated what was already known that the people with more education voted for "Stay" and people with less education voted for "Leave". For reference, see for example: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-how-the-results-compare-to-the-uks-educated-old-an/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-how-the-results-compare-to-the-uks-educated-old-an/)

I don't know that this is true but it seems plausible.  Those with higher education are probably better off financially and have more to lose with the exit.  Those who are struggling for jobs, competing with immigrants perhaps, maybe they don't think they have as much to lose and possibly they could gain when jobs become available.  Despite all the rhetoric about higher level concepts, this vote came down to jobs and immigration (in my opinion).  The US vote may do the very same thing.

I guess most folks woke up this morning wondering "Now what?".  We live in interesting times...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: StuUK on June 24, 2016, 02:36:28 pm
Will be interesting to see whom the separatists now will blame for their own following f*ckups. The EU was an easy target to blame for all and everything. Now they're in need to find new culprits  :popcorn:

Indeed!!!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 24, 2016, 02:41:16 pm
May I used the international reach of the EEVblog forum to pass this message to my dear continental cousins:

Join us!  Force your domestic politicians to listen to the will of your people.  Free your great and proud nations from the hideous, arrogant, condescending, inefficient, autocratic bureaucracy that is the EU.
It is always interesting to see people are too blinded to see that any form of democratic government however distant it may be is the result from their own voting. Simply put: you voted for the ones that rule you. If you think you are not heard or taken seriously means that a) you voted wrong in the past b) the majority doesn't agree with you.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 24, 2016, 02:42:05 pm
Will be interesting to see whom the separatists now will blame for their own following f*ckups. The EU was an easy target to blame for all and everything. Now they're in need to find new culprits  :popcorn:
That's an easy answer actually. They will still blame the EU. I can say on our own example in Latvia, 25 years out of Soviet union and now in EU. Still blaming Russia for every internal problem to happen  :palm:. Also, memory of the voter is no longer than 1 year in average IMO.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: woodchips on June 24, 2016, 02:45:20 pm
One of the dangers, and advantages, of a democracy is that occasionally you do get to have your say.

ZAP!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kalvin on June 24, 2016, 02:45:56 pm
Voters with better education voted for "Stay" and the voters with less education voted for "Leave". This is a clear indication that the Britain lacks educated people and savings in the education expenses backfired. It is country's interest to provide a good education for as many people as possible.

Unbelievable naivety, in fact your comment demonstrates the type of ignorance that resulted in a leave vote.... FFS  :palm:

Oh no, I just restated what was already known that the people with more education voted for "Stay" and people with less education voted for "Leave". For reference, see for example: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-how-the-results-compare-to-the-uks-educated-old-an/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/eu-referendum-how-the-results-compare-to-the-uks-educated-old-an/)

I don't know that this is true but it seems plausible.  Those with higher education are probably better off financially and have more to lose with the exit.  Those who are struggling for jobs, competing with immigrants perhaps, maybe they don't think they have as much to lose and possibly they could gain when jobs become available.  Despite all the rhetoric about higher level concepts, this vote came down to jobs and immigration (in my opinion).  The US vote may do the very same thing.

I agree. The question remains: Will there be more jobs available really.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 24, 2016, 02:46:11 pm
Frankly I think this whole result is due to simple bigotry whether amongst the educated or not...

That's a bit of a sweeping generalisation

Quote from: The Dictionary
bigotry noun
intolerance towards those who hold different opinions from oneself.

Take a look in the mirror.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Buriedcode on June 24, 2016, 03:03:41 pm
Quote
I instinctively want to think that is a fake picture.

His resignation is to be expected. As a leader of the remain camp, it is not right for him to act as the caretaker of the country in the aftermath of a leave vote, over-whelming one too.

Cameron did the honorable thing by tendering his resignation. I'm sure it was a difficult decision but he did the right thing for the country, and for himself in the long-run.

Bollocks !!.
He resigned to reduce the pending torry party meltdown.

Um.. not the resignation part.. the headline "Britain votes to leave the UN"  :palm:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 24, 2016, 03:10:10 pm
I agree. The question remains: Will there be more jobs available really.
The question is, will be native Brits willing to work on "those" jobs?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 24, 2016, 03:11:49 pm
Quote
One can also argue that the higher standard of living and higher level of education are correlated

That's likely true statistically. You are also likely find more correlation between education and white collar crimes; education and lack of physical fitness or physical strength; education and lack of work ethics, ..... An educated person is necessary or even statistically a better or a wiser or a more deserving person.

But education doesn't make one smarter, back to our discussion, nor does it make one's decisions more likely to be correct.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on June 24, 2016, 03:12:59 pm
Will be interesting to see whom the separatists now will blame for their own following f*ckups. The EU was an easy target to blame for all and everything. Now they're in need to find new culprits  :popcorn:

That's easy.  As usual, they will blame racial minorities.  Perhaps even Jewish financiers.   A well-trodden path.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on June 24, 2016, 03:19:47 pm
Quote
One can also argue that the higher standard of living and higher level of education are correlated

That's likely true statistically. You are also likely find more correlation between education and white collar crimes; education and lack of physical fitness or physical strength; education and lack of work ethics, ..... An educated person is necessary or even statistically a better or a wiser or a more deserving person.

But education doesn't make one smarter, back to our discussion, nor does it make one's decisions more likely to be correct.

Surely making one's decisions more likely to be correct is one of the few things that education *should* do - at least if the education is any good!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 24, 2016, 03:28:22 pm
The Union Kingdom is the new Spain from century XIX: Divided, with regional tensions and  the civil wars that we don't know when it will begin. :rant:

David Cameron have done the same that the president of the First Republic of Spain Estanislao Figueras(1873): he  mounted the mess(Spanish Federation) and run away, leaving Spain with the Third Charlist War(North Spain) , with a Cantonista Rebelion(South Spain) and a war with the Cuban Separist  .

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 24, 2016, 03:36:01 pm
The UK is not under sharia law and i would disagree if britain tried to impose sharia law in any part of it.

For a Sunni this is essentially apostasy.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Buriedcode on June 24, 2016, 03:44:25 pm
Really wish I hadn't mentioned 'Sharia law' now, as it was just an example of what *some* American media likes to portray to get ratings.  If there is any British citizens in this thread that are 'scared' of the possibility - they need to stop living in their own little world.  The only example I have seen of someone trying to impose Laws other than the current British laws are a small group of young men who want attention.  And that was over inflated by the media. Any citizens who try to impose any other laws are themselves - breaking the law.  But anyways, back on topic - I see from the Telegraph that there are quite a few 'leave' voters who have changed their minds  :palm:  This is why for every referendum people should be made to sit quietly, in an empty room, for 10 minutes before deciding on their vote.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 24, 2016, 03:50:56 pm
At present rates more Muslims will be born in Germany than native German within a couple of years. Islam is an example of the complete lunacy of liberals, who are in complete denial of the demographic replacement which can take place over a single generation if things go on like this.

Jihad and implementing Shariah is the duty of every Sunni Muslim, the revivalists have it right ... the revivalists are also rapidly taking over everywhere.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 24, 2016, 03:53:01 pm
Quote
Any citizens who try to impose any other laws are themselves - breaking the law.

Breaking the law isn't always a bad thing. Slavery was once the law of the lands; not giving women the right to vote was once the law of the lands; discrimination of all sorts was the law of the lands; etc.

The fact that someone isn't breaking the law by and of itself means nothing in terms of whether the actions are justified. Civilization advances in part by breaking old laws and establishing new laws.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 24, 2016, 03:55:03 pm
Quote
there are quite a few 'leave' voters who have changed their minds

I'm sure you can say that about some "remain" voters somewhere.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: System Error Message on June 24, 2016, 04:01:14 pm
The UK is not under sharia law and i would disagree if britain tried to impose sharia law in any part of it.

For a Sunni this is essentially apostasy.

Sharia law is man made law it isnt mentioned in the Quran that all humans have to follow it. It was used as a guideline during the medievel times. But as i said this isnt the thread to discuss about this. If you want start a new thread or PM if  you wish to debate and i can show you some logic. Im not a vulcan but the media (including private ones) all love word and scene play. Using a bit of logic you can spot a lie. Notice the kind of music used on conspiracy videos about illuminati, the devil and such vs say a music used in a history channel documentary?

Im not a religious person and i think humans are unappreciative and destroy any religion that is given to them. Thats just my opinion though.

I also think even the muslims arent following their own religion so its the same globally. So dont think of this on a religious scale, think it on a racist scale instead. These "muslims" that colonise other countries, where are they from mostly? Is it a bad part of the world full of poverty and wars like africa? Lots of crime lords from there like mexico and africa? What about the chinese that are all around us now? Remember australia's panda ads for the chinese about what not to do in public? China uncensored? Even in the US in the south the christians are hard on following their religion that they would pelt you with stones if you were too public about some things in their area but in other areas of the US no one cares about what you do or are even if they are christians as long as you dont kill or injure anyone.
Now lets get back on track with the topic.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 24, 2016, 04:05:46 pm
Quote
Sharia law is man made law

So is the English law, :)

Quote
So dont think of this on a religious scale, think it on a racist scale instead.

How did you make that connection? :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 24, 2016, 04:09:56 pm
Sharia law is man made law it isnt mentioned in the Quran that all humans have to follow it.

I can steer this back on topic quite easily. The current mayer of London frequents a Deobandi mosque. What do you think the average visitor of that mosque thinks about your above statement?

Quranism, essentially what you did above, Ahmaddiya and even the Gulen movement are relatively compatible with secular government ... but they are tiny compared to say Deobandi, Salafi/Wahabi, Muslim Brotherhood and Tablighi Jamaat. Unlike those movements they are without a doubt also not Sunni.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: System Error Message on June 24, 2016, 04:15:08 pm
Because the same races who migrate to other muslim countries also cause trouble there despite the existance of sharia law or other laws and rules. Its more to do with statistics and the reason why people migrate. I would also say other people are jealous so they cause trouble thinking they deserve it rather than you.

Rather what should be done is allow the muslims to be governed by sharia law if they choose so as long as it doesnt conflict with national laws.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 24, 2016, 04:23:54 pm
Quote
Because the same races who migrate to other muslim countries also cause trouble there despite the existance of sharia law

I'm sure there are trouble makers wherever and in every race. But to a causual observers like me, muslim countries tend to be overwhelmingly muslim, unless muslim are the minority. Look at the miseries of non-muslims in Muslim countries vs. Muslims in non-Muslim countries.

Quote
Rather what should be done is allow the muslims to be governed by sharia law if they choose so as long as it doesnt conflict with national laws.

It depends on what you mean. Let's say in your town, if the people there voted to impose sharia law so long it doesn't conflict with national laws, you would be OK? Does that mean you have to follow sharia law if the national law is silent on a matter? or you have to follow sharia law if the national law doesn't expressly prohibit it? or ....

the devil is in the details.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Buriedcode on June 24, 2016, 04:28:20 pm
Sharia law is man made law it isnt mentioned in the Quran that all humans have to follow it.

I can steer this back on topic quite easily. The current mayer of London frequents a Deobandi mosque. What do you think the average visitor of that mosque thinks about your above statement?

I think when the King of Jordan and 200 Islamic scholars were defining who should be called Muslims in the Amman message, they were clearly not talking about you.


[rant]
ffs I guess I set the ball rolling.... this topic isn't about religion, but if you guys insist.... you cannot take the beliefs of a handful of people and claim that those stand far a majority.  There are as many interpretations of a religion as there are followers - people pick and choose which parts that justify what they were going to do, or think anyway.  You're making an assumption about what visitors to that particular mosque think, here's a clue: unless you have asked every single one - you don't know.  The fact those lads on the streets allegedly trying to enforce a set of laws they believe in is meaningless with regards to religion, by doing that you're implying that their views are shared by a far greater number of people.

And dannyf, whilst I'm sure there are 'revolutions' somewhere, the idea of breaking the law to change the law these days, in *this* country, is at best, antiquated.  Plenty of people still break the law for their belief's, like animal rights activists and they do so not for the greater good, but because they want something to fight for, to be seen to be making a difference, whilst simultaneously enjoying the safety of a modern welfare state with all its conveniences. Walk on wallstreet was a similar affair - a few dedicated well meaning individuals amongst many 'I'm important look at me! I hate capitalism but still want to keep my iphone and facebook even though they were both fruits of such a regime'. [/rant]

Edit: after 10 mintues that looks far too ranty and off-topic.. I wold delete but then I'll just look like I've said something really outlandish :D
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 24, 2016, 04:35:54 pm
Quote
the idea of breaking the law to change the law these days, in *this* country, is at best, antiquated.

What's wrong being antiquated? The universe is pretty antiquated, 10s of billions of years antiquated; civilization is antiquated; Shakespeare and tons of great books are antiquated; ........

Should we ban them all?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rolycat on June 24, 2016, 04:42:12 pm
Quote
the idea of breaking the law to change the law these days, in *this* country, is at best, antiquated.

What's wrong being antiquated? The universe is pretty antiquated, 10s of billions of years antiquated; civilization is antiquated; Shakespeare and tons of great books are antiquated; ........

Should we ban them all?

You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means  :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: System Error Message on June 24, 2016, 04:50:35 pm
to be clear what i mean if a muslim wishes to be governed by sharia law than let him. So lets say in a town of non muslims and muslims if a non muslim steals just apply the usual national punishment. If a muslim who chooses to be under sharia law steals than chop off his hand. This is the kind of setup used in some muslim countries.

What im saying is dont look at these screwed up countries, look at south east asia for example as they are less screwed up. They have oil there too.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Buriedcode on June 24, 2016, 04:50:47 pm
Quote
the idea of breaking the law to change the law these days, in *this* country, is at best, antiquated.

What's wrong being antiquated? The universe is pretty antiquated, 10s of billions of years antiquated; civilization is antiquated; Shakespeare and tons of great books are antiquated; ........

Should we ban them all?

Not at all, but using historical examples of policy change in the context of the present is the sort of thinking that tends to stifle progress.  And by progress I mean the almost constant modifications made to law, human rights, and equality.  It's almost the same thinking as those who said 'I want Britain to be like it was when I grew up', when that clearly will never happen. I do see your point, but mine was that a handful of citizens (we're talking 3-4) trying to enforce what *they* believe should be the law - telling women to completely cover up and refrain from alcohol - using violence is hardly the same as the abolition of slavery, or the suffragettes, which was for the benefit of many.  The fact they were religious is, well meaningless, it was *their* opinion, not representing a large proportion of society.

Anyways, yes, Brexit.  I hate that word.  Gonna be an interesting few years and whilst I do instinctively have th fear of uncertainty, I'm not sure *that* much will change. Especially as it'll be a somewhat slow process and so will appear to be less of a change.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 24, 2016, 04:53:55 pm
you cannot take the beliefs of a handful of people and claim that those stand far a majority.  There are as many interpretations of a religion as there are followers

But I can take them calling themselves Sunni at face value and expect them to mostly agree with Bukhari on the validity of Hadith and to mostly follow one of the four madhhab.

Quote
here's a clue: unless you have asked every single one - you don't know.

I do know the opinion of its Imam on Ahmadis. There have been quite a few surveys of British Muslims opinions in general, most not very nice.

Here is a Salafi laying out the truth for you in Norway, he's not interested in hiding it because he believes his correctness and victory is already divinely assured. Listen and learn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV710c1dgpU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV710c1dgpU)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 24, 2016, 05:00:01 pm
Will be interesting to see whom the separatists now will blame for their own following f*ckups. The EU was an easy target to blame for all and everything. Now they're in need to find new culprits  :popcorn:
That's an easy answer actually. They will still blame the EU. I can say on our own example in Latvia, 25 years out of Soviet union and now in EU.
Still blaming Russia for every internal problem to happen  :palm:. Also, memory of the voter is no longer than 1 year in average IMO.
And the Russians blame all their problems on the west! So there goes your easy example! :palm:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 24, 2016, 05:10:23 pm
Quote
I do see your point, but mine was that a handful of citizens (we're talking 3-4) trying to enforce what *they* believe should be the law - telling women to completely cover up and refrain from alcohol - using violence is hardly the same as the abolition of slavery, or the suffragettes, which was for the benefit of many.

I'm still not understanding you.

Say one day the majority of your town people decided it is OK to enforce the sharia law, is it OK?

What if the majority of Brits one day decided to enforce the sharia law, is it OK then?

What if one day the majority of Brits wants to amend the national law to be consistent with sharia law, is it OK then?

what if one day the majority decides to enforce slavery to benefit many? ....

There is no more to a people than what the collective votes of those people?

The left grossly underestimated the anger among the public. The votes aren't even remotely about economy, nor immigration (only superficially so). The vote is existential. It is about what the Brits think being Brits means.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: System Error Message on June 24, 2016, 05:20:40 pm
you cannot take the beliefs of a handful of people and claim that those stand far a majority.  There are as many interpretations of a religion as there are followers

But I can take them calling themselves Sunni at face value and expect them to mostly agree with Bukhari on the validity of Hadith and to mostly follow one of the four madhhab.

Quote
here's a clue: unless you have asked every single one - you don't know.

I do know the opinion of its Imam on Ahmadis. There have been quite a few surveys of British Muslims opinions in general, most not very nice.

Here is a Salafi laying out the truth for you in Norway, he's not interested in hiding it because he believes his correctness and victory is already divinely assured. Listen and learn.

Ive seen this video before and the first thing is that annoying music, it makes this seem like one of those conspiracy videos.
The other thing is that those imams or speakers are entirely wrong. Christianity and Judaism are not false. The correct description used in the Quran was that the people strayed but that does not make the religion itself false hence the Quran refers to followers of those 2 religions as followers of the book. It doesnt say they are wrong.
One of the speakers wants the death penalty for gays. The official punishment for gays in islam is imprisonment, not death so he is going too far.
i can quote more and as i said there is a clear difference between a moderate and extremist. These guys are just trying to get the muslims in EU to think that they're all the same that they should follow the barbaric ways of the arabs who were barbaric even before islam came to them and still were even after.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 24, 2016, 05:23:23 pm
So this is what you voted on, uuuuh sorry this was a mistake!  :-DD  scam? con-artist? fraud? no worse a wannebe politician .
http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/farage-says-350million-nhs-pledge-was-a-mistake-5963794/ (http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/farage-says-350million-nhs-pledge-was-a-mistake-5963794/)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 24, 2016, 05:23:34 pm
But anyways, back on topic - I see from the Telegraph that there are quite a few 'leave' voters who have changed their minds  :palm:  This is why for every referendum people should be made to sit quietly, in an empty room, for 10 minutes before deciding on their vote.

But are there a million of them?  If not, voters' remorse (or just playing up to the media) doesn't change anything.
It is said that the market is always right.  Everything is known and priced in.  In my view, the voters are always right.  Voting gives them a chance to tell the politicians what they think and sometimes the politicians don't want to hear it.  You see the same thing in the US right now.  The media is in complete denial over the issues that led to Trump becoming the Republican candidate.  Particularly in the Washington Post, the intelligentsia are beside themselves over the ignorant electorate.  They haven't seen anything yet!  They just don't get it!  People are pissed off about the direction our country is going.  Just like the UK!

It'll be interesting how this plays out over the next few years.


Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: System Error Message on June 24, 2016, 05:26:18 pm
The main question is where did the £350m come from? Seems like they used the same tactic with the scots and it worked. So the residents of the UK seem to pick or believe anyone who gives money.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 24, 2016, 05:34:10 pm
So this is what you voted on, uuuuh sorry this was a mistake!  :-DD  scam? con-artist? fraud? no worse a wannebe politician .
http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/farage-says-350million-nhs-pledge-was-a-mistake-5963794/ (http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/farage-says-350million-nhs-pledge-was-a-mistake-5963794/)

I doubt that anybody thought that $350M per week would actually go to NHS.  Nobody alive believes anything that politicians say (if they have even a lick of sense) and, although impossible, even fewer believe statisticians.  I suspect that most of the Leave group would be happy to just not send money offshore, regardless of where it winds up.

Both sides lied, nobody is clean in this deal, but the voters have spoken.  Now it's time to get to work on the people's wishes.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Nauris on June 24, 2016, 05:35:26 pm
May I use the international reach of the EEVblog forum to pass this message to my dear continental cousins:

Join us!  Force your domestic politicians to listen to the will of your people.  Free your great and proud nations from the hideous, arrogant, condescending, inefficient, autocratic bureaucracy that is the EU.

The EU simply cannot continue as it is.  As the EU is also resolutely against any kind of serious reform, the only way forward for prosperity of our nations and people is for the EU to disband.

I hope that when I am an old man, I will be boring the kids with stories of how my vote played its part in the beginning of the end of "that strange EU thing they tried back in your day Grandad".

I reckon the Dutch, Danes, and Swedes are the most likely to go next.

 :-+
Exactly!
I bet that in ten years time Germany and Turkey are the only ones remaining in the EU.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: System Error Message on June 24, 2016, 05:36:30 pm
you havent met people with low IQ. No matter the facts you show with the logic they still wont believe you and go for the irrational reasons or options.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: pelule on June 24, 2016, 05:39:18 pm
Quote
I bet that in ten years time Germany and Turkey are the only ones remaining in the EU.
Don't forget Scottland and Russia. :-DD
Voting done - Good by UK - Welcome back Great Britain.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 24, 2016, 05:39:49 pm
Quote
The official punishment for gays in islam is imprisonment, not death so he is going too far.

wow!

Quote
i can quote more and as i said there is a clear difference between a moderate and extremist.

So the moderate wants to jail gays and the extremist wants to kill them? that's the "clear" difference?

this reminds me of the saying that the islamic extremists want to kill you and the islamic moderates want the islamic extremists to kill you. What a clear difference.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 24, 2016, 05:43:20 pm
Frankly I think this whole result is due to simple bigotry whether amongst the educated or not...

Frankly, I think you are incredibly arrogant and condescending.  The view that you epitomise is the reason why so many  people feel frustrated with and alienated from our professional politicians.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: System Error Message on June 24, 2016, 05:44:01 pm
For christians just because the old testament had a lot of violence do you christians going about and actually perfoming them in the modern age?

You should watch robert spencer's videos, he calls for an islamic reform, that there are many variances and conflicts. The main question is how do you want to follow your religion. Do you want to follow it in a barbaric way or in a civilised and more scientific/understandable way?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 24, 2016, 05:44:53 pm
Quote
you havent met people with low IQ.

don't be so sure. :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 24, 2016, 05:48:06 pm
Quote
For christians just because the old testament had a lot of violence do you christians going about and actually perfoming them in the modern age?

Isn't that the fundamental issue here? Some people insist on practicing their religions the way it was 1000s of years ago, and they insist that we either follow them or be eliminated.

And then you have their little helpers who want us to be tolerant to such intolerance.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: System Error Message on June 24, 2016, 05:53:28 pm
Quote
For christians just because the old testament had a lot of violence do you christians going about and actually perfoming them in the modern age?

Isn't that the fundamental issue here? Some people insist on practicing their religions the way it was 1000s of years ago, and they insist that we either follow them or be eliminated.

And then you have their little helpers who want us to be tolerant to such intolerance.

In other words the problem is with the people so it goes back to an issue of race rather than religion. The human factor.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 24, 2016, 06:02:51 pm
you cannot take the beliefs of a handful of people and claim that those stand far a majority.  There are as many interpretations of a religion as there are followers

But I can take them calling themselves Sunni at face value and expect them to mostly agree with Bukhari on the validity of Hadith and to mostly follow one of the four madhhab.

Quote
here's a clue: unless you have asked every single one - you don't know.

I do know the opinion of its Imam on Ahmadis. There have been quite a few surveys of British Muslims opinions in general, most not very nice.

Here is a Salafi laying out the truth for you in Norway, he's not interested in hiding it because he believes his correctness and victory is already divinely assured. Listen and learn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV710c1dgpU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV710c1dgpU)

 :scared:

That should be compulsory viewing for those who fail to grasp that Islam is fundamentally incompatible with modern western civilisation.

At least muslims like that are honest; that is the bullshit they believe, and they aren't afraid to say it.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: xrunner on June 24, 2016, 06:10:20 pm
Damn my portfolio is taking a big hit right now - thanks a lot Brexit.  :(
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 24, 2016, 06:13:31 pm
Quote
In other words the problem is with the people so it goes back to an issue of race rather than religion.

You couldn't have been more off. The problem is with intolerance. It is with people who kill you just because you have the wrong religion; who call you a racist because you exercise your constitutional rights; who want to prosecute you because you want to learn more about global warming; ....

It is about them wanting to impose their value system on to you and me.

Such people come from all races and all classes and many of them are well educated.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jitter on June 24, 2016, 06:27:57 pm
I would like to put forth this proposition:
We as EU members should respect the English desire to leave the EU. But one of the conditions should be if the Welsh and/or the Scottisch should choose to remain part of the EU, the English must agree to that, even if that were to mean the end of the UK.

Would you agree that's only fair?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 24, 2016, 07:02:55 pm
Quote
Would you agree that's only fair?

That would be fair if it were part of the pack with the UK when they joined. Otherwise, no.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: chris_leyson on June 24, 2016, 07:03:23 pm
Quote
I would like to put forth this proposition:
We as EU members should respect the English desire to leave the EU. But one of the conditions should be if the Welsh and/or the Scottisch should choose to remain part of the EU, the English must agree to that, even if that were to hmean the end of the UK.

I'm not surprised by the Welsh vote to leave, traditionally Labour voters, but I think the Labour party has lost touch with the electorate and some of the vote has shifted to UKIP. I heard Jeremy Corbyn blaming Margaret Thatcher for the demise of heavy industry, he's definitely out of touch, it was the unions demanding silly money. The unions led to the demise of heavy industry not Margaret Thatcher. British steel became Chorus in 1999 and was sold to Tata steel in 2007, under Tony Blairs Labour government. I think disillusion combined with immigration swung the Welsh vote.
Scotland have voted by an overwhelming majority to stay in the EU and now Nicola Sturgeon is calling for another independance vote, who can blame her. Northern Ireland have voted to stay in the EU and who can blame them, border issues perhaps, I can't speak for the Scots or Irish. The United Kingdom is not so united. We'll see time will tell.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: System Error Message on June 24, 2016, 07:20:12 pm
Quote
In other words the problem is with the people so it goes back to an issue of race rather than religion.

You couldn't have been more off. The problem is with intolerance. It is with people who kill you just because you have the wrong religion; who call you a racist because you exercise your constitutional rights; who want to prosecute you because you want to learn more about global warming; ....

It is about them wanting to impose their value system on to you and me.

Such people come from all races and all classes and many of them are well educated.

Well than why not do something fun. Go to them and ask them if they want to kill you just because you dont accept Islam. It will make them doubt and actually go back and study religion. Give them some relevant sources to read. In that video, ask everyone in the room. They will start doubting things.

The problem is that people like those imams in the video are dillusional and spreading it to others. Do you even have muslim friends? Show them the video and ask them.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 24, 2016, 07:21:46 pm
"Scotland" didn't vote to remain, nor did "Northern Ireland".  "Wales" didn't vote to leave, nor did "England".

The United Kingdom voted to leave, and that it that.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Howardlong on June 24, 2016, 07:23:46 pm
Frankly I think this whole result is due to simple bigotry whether amongst the educated or not...

Frankly, I think you are incredibly arrogant and condescending.  The view that you epitomise is the reason why so many  people feel frustrated with and alienated from our professional politicians.

I'd agree with that, in fact the constant lazy ad hominem non sequitur accusations such as this backfired as far as I'm concerned, it actually showed how little the accuser knew, as well as how pejorative and prejudging they are, which is rather ironic!

If the same amount of effort had been made into presenting the positive benefits are of being in the EU, for example how the stated aims of increased federalism, fiscal unity and expansion into seemingly fiscally incompatible states, benefits both the UK and the Union as a whole, then the result would have been different. But voters can only assume that because those things weren't addressed, there is no benefit.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 24, 2016, 07:30:51 pm
(http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_630_noupscale/576cfb1c2200002e00f82c23.png)

According to Yougov, 75% in age of 18–24 vote remain while 59% over 65 vote for leave! So now grand children are mighty pissed! >:D
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 24, 2016, 07:47:24 pm
I'm not surprised by the Welsh vote to leave, traditionally Labour voters, but I think the Labour party has lost touch with the electorate and some of the vote has shifted to UKIP. I heard Jeremy Corbyn blaming Margaret Thatcher for the demise of heavy industry, he's definitely out of touch, it was the unions demanding silly money. The unions led to the demise of heavy industry not Margaret Thatcher.
IMHO the market led to the demise of heavy industry since the 19070's. In the NL there is very little heavy industry left and the steel industry (also owned by Corus and now Tata) is more involved in high quality stuff for the automotive industry than just churning out large chunks of iron. All in all it is foolish to believe that heavy industry will return in the west part of Europe. It is just too expensive but it also shows that education is more important than ever to enable people to get a job.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 24, 2016, 07:51:01 pm
Quote
The problem is that people like those imams in the video are dillusional and spreading it to others.

the imams (or the speakers) aren't the problems at all. There are always nutjobs in every people and every religion. They are not scary at all.

What is scary is the audience. Or more precisely, the overwhelming agreement between the audience and the imams.

You cannot separate islam from its practitioners. You cannot say "well, Islam is the religion of the peach" and at the same time have its practitioners beheading people left and right for tiny dissents.

Every religion has its dark past. Every other major religion and its practitioners have found a way to coexist with others, have found a way to reconcile their religious teachings to reality.

Those guys haven't.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: chris_leyson on June 24, 2016, 08:21:53 pm
Quote
IMHO the market led to the demise of heavy industry since the 19070's. In the NL there is very little heavy industry left and the steel industry (also owned by Corus and now Tata) is more involved in high quality stuff for the automotive industry than just churning out large chunks of iron.
I think Llanwern is or was a specialist strip mill, but a lack of investment and no abillity to adapt to changing markets equals a dead industry. Port Talbot just churning out big lumps of steel that you could ship from China. I've been watching the electrification of the Great Western rail line, and thinking where is all this steel coming from. The Welsh government spent £130 million building a factory complex for LG, that never happened but at least LG agreed to pay half of the money back. I think there is a Siemens semiconductor plant somewhere that also never happened.

Totally agree on the education thing, the last time I went to Cardiff library looking for "engineering" books I noticed that there was a bigger book section on f**ing witchcraft, WTF, what morons run this libray no wonder this country is in such a mess. It's gone well past the work ethic thing, now you don't even want to learn usefull skills. Rant over.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Howardlong on June 24, 2016, 08:29:46 pm
(http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_630_noupscale/576cfb1c2200002e00f82c23.png)

According to Yougov, 75% in age of 18–24 vote remain while 59% over 65 vote for leave! So now grand children are mighty pissed! >:D

Actually a very few people on my FB feed have seriously been suggesting that older people should not have been allowed to vote. At that stage, I remind them of the similarity to denying votes to women, or apartheid, and the irony of them supposedly supporting EU inclusivity and egalitarianism.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: daqq on June 24, 2016, 08:33:58 pm
Quote
The official punishment for gays in islam is imprisonment, not death so he is going too far.
Oh, well that's OK then. And here I was worried. Very progressive!

...So... does imprisonment un-gay people, or something?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: System Error Message on June 24, 2016, 08:37:20 pm

According to Yougov, 75% in age of 18–24 vote remain while 59% over 65 vote for leave! So now grand children are mighty pissed! >:D

Actually a very few people on my FB feed have seriously been suggesting that older people should not have been allowed to vote. At that stage, I remind them of the similarity to denying votes to women, or apartheid, and the irony of them supposedly supporting EU inclusivity and egalitarianism.

Does anyone remember the top gear segment about rail safety? Its a democracy so even if someone is insane, irrational,delusional, misinformed or even emo they still will be allowed to vote.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 24, 2016, 08:39:59 pm
Quote
IMHO the market led to the demise of heavy industry since the 19070's. In the NL there is very little heavy industry left and the steel industry (also owned by Corus and now Tata) is more involved in high quality stuff for the automotive industry than just churning out large chunks of iron.
I think Llanwern is or was a specialist strip mill, but a lack of investment and no abillity to adapt to changing markets equals a dead industry. Port Talbot just churning out big lumps of steel that you could ship from China. I've been watching the electrification of the Great Western rail line, and thinking where is all this steel coming from. The Welsh government spent £130 million building a factory complex for LG, that never happened but at least LG agreed to pay half of the money back. I think there is a Siemens semiconductor plant somewhere that also never happened.
Unfortunately the BBC keeps feeding the people in the UK rubbish on how great the UK is for heavy industry by programmes like the 'How to build' series ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017lyld (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017lyld) ). If you look at the episodes you'll notice how few people there are on the work floor and how much of the work is automated. From a technical point of few the series is very interesting but IMHO there is too much 'give yourself a pad on the shoulder because you are Brittish' going on.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Macbeth on June 24, 2016, 08:54:08 pm
Quote
The official punishment for gays in islam is imprisonment, not death so he is going too far.
Oh, well that's OK then. And here I was worried. Very progressive!

...So... does imprisonment un-gay people, or something?
I would be very surprised that imprisonment is the official islamic punishment for being gay. I mean Islam is a nomadic desert arabs cult. Chopping thieves hands off (and the right hand at that - the eating hand, not the wiping shit from arse hand) was probably considered very enlightened compared to outright murder back in 700AD. I'm pretty sure the camel trekking nomads did not have prisons in the desert to house gays in.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: kaz911 on June 24, 2016, 09:03:20 pm
Quote
The official punishment for gays in islam is imprisonment, not death so he is going too far.
Oh, well that's OK then. And here I was worried. Very progressive!

...So... does imprisonment un-gay people, or something?

The punishment is different from one Islamic state to the other. But prison is absolutely one of the milder punishments for being gay. More normal is lashings and jail.

And it does not help - there are MANY people in the ME who are gay. Some of it stems from culture where male rape is used to show dominance over a perceived lower ranking individual - while others are more like the western gays. Many of the western style gays are easy to spot :) even in dishdasha/kandura/thawb (the robe).

But like all kinds of crime in the ME - you are only punished if you are found out. And by found out - it has to be glaring obvious that something wrong is going on (like caught in the act) - else the police usually turns the blind eye to it. But if you get caught drinking with a few naked guys in your apartment - and the neighbors complain so police are called - then the big hammer falls fast and swift. And then you get punished for every big and small offence they can find.

Lots of expats (and Muslims) drive intoxicated in the ME. But usually if nothing has happened - police will just escort you home with a little polite warning (with you still driving your own car if at all capable) - but if you did a tiny fender bender while intoxicated  - the same offence will fx. in the UAE land you in jail right away for 30 days for being drunk + what ever else they figure out while they research you.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 24, 2016, 09:21:35 pm
Quote
Actually a very few people on my FB feed have seriously been suggesting that older people should not have been allowed to vote.

Doesn't sound being well educated has done those people much good, :)

Nor does hundreds of years of "enlightenment" in europe. Those people sound downright barbaric to me, especially for being well educated.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: continuo on June 24, 2016, 09:23:39 pm
Just to cheer you up on a sad day  ;D

http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/british-lose-right-to-claim-that-americans-are-dumber (http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/british-lose-right-to-claim-that-americans-are-dumber)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Towger on June 24, 2016, 09:59:06 pm
The Irish passport office had a record number of inquiries today, all you need is a Irish granny to insure hassle free employment and property ownership rights in Europe.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 24, 2016, 10:03:16 pm
Damn my portfolio is taking a big hit right now - thanks a lot Brexit.  :(

I doubt it.

The attached images show the real result of what happened.

First is the DJIA over the past year.  The yellow lines show the move today after the Brexit news.  That pales in comparison to the natural ups and downs the market has experienced just over the past 12 months.

Second is the GBP/EUR over the past week.  It's down, but not all that much.  The news is bleating about GBP/USD which isn't all that fair, considering Brexit is naturally going to cause a flight of capital into dollars (and into gold).  Measuring the delta between the dollar and pound doesn't isolate the actual result of Brexit because it comingles the data with the flight of capital to dollars.  Comparing the pound to the euro better illustrates the market's reaction to a sovereign UK vs a EU-attached UK.

Last is the GBP/EUR over the past 5 years.  Brexit hasn't caused all that much of a stir at all - substantially less than the natural ebb and flow of the GBP/EUR exchange.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 24, 2016, 10:04:17 pm
http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/petition-calling-for-a-second-eu-referendum-crashes-because-its-so-popular-5964230/ (http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/24/petition-calling-for-a-second-eu-referendum-crashes-because-its-so-popular-5964230/)
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215 (https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215)

Its not over yet dear britons!  ;D
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Macbeth on June 24, 2016, 10:24:13 pm
The Irish passport office had a record number of inquiries today, all you need is a Irish granny to insure hassle free employment and property ownership rights in Europe.
I imagine these convenient grannies will be supplied by a certain community established in Waterford...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: lemmegraphdat on June 24, 2016, 10:35:38 pm
May Britain be Great once again. This damp island stood and said no to Hitler and his Nazi gangsters when the rest of Europe was falling like dominos. Now they may bring the turning of the tide against the soldiers of Islam.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 24, 2016, 10:41:27 pm
May Britain be Great once again. This damp island stood and said no to Hitler and his Nazi gangsters when the rest of Europe was falling like dominos. Now they may bring the turning of the tide against the soldiers of Islam.
May I consider this the new low of all entries in this thread?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: xygor on June 24, 2016, 10:49:34 pm
Wait. What!? I thought they voted to stay:
"Markets rally on Brexit “no” vote
The British vote to stay in the European Union removed a cloud of uncertainty for investors."
http://archive.is/2tSuH (http://archive.is/2tSuH)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 24, 2016, 10:54:47 pm
I bet that in ten years time Germany and Turkey are the only ones remaining in the EU.

That is the best post in this whole thread!  :D
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: chris_leyson on June 24, 2016, 10:55:38 pm
Quote
Unfortunately the BBC keeps feeding the people in the UK rubbish on how great the UK is for heavy industry by programmes like the 'How to build' series ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017lyld (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017lyld) ). If you look at the episodes you'll notice how few people there are on the work floor and how much of the work is automated. From a technical point of few the series is very interesting but IMHO there is too much 'give yourself a pad on the shoulder because you are Brittish' going on.

Yep you're right man, we don't build or manufacture much anymore, maybe it's all service industries now, my dad said the same thing a generation ago. Nothing has changed in 50 years, the car industry gone, the rail industry gone, steel industry gone, ship building gone almost, electronics started but gone and were are kidding ourselves we're the 5th largest economy on the planet ? Not for long.

India and China have a bigger space program than we do, at least India put a satellite in orbit around Mars and China land "Jade Rabbit" on the moon. Maybe we should base our entire economy on injection molded plastic vacuum cleaners with a ball or maybe bulldozers, I was taking the piss. If you have a population with no work ethic let alone education ethic you're not going to very far.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Buriedcode on June 24, 2016, 11:03:27 pm
May Britain be Great once again. This damp island stood and said no to Hitler and his Nazi gangsters when the rest of Europe was falling like dominos. Now they may bring the turning of the tide against the soldiers of Islam.
May I consider this the new low of all entries in this thread?

Wow.. yes I thought it was getting silly when people started spouting stuff about Islam (I'll admit, I introduced religion in the thread as a throw-away comment about paranoia..) but this has to be a troll.  RIP brexit thread :
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 24, 2016, 11:33:40 pm
May Britain be Great once again. This damp island stood and said no to Hitler and his Nazi gangsters when the rest of Europe was falling like dominos. Now they may bring the turning of the tide against the soldiers of Islam.

s/damp/glorious/
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 25, 2016, 12:28:59 am
Just to cheer you up on a sad day  ;D

http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/british-lose-right-to-claim-that-americans-are-dumber (http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/british-lose-right-to-claim-that-americans-are-dumber)

Ha Ha.
I liked this line “But I hold out hope that, come November, Americans could become dumber than us once more.”
Gives new meaning to the Trump card.

Yet another the-people-that-disagree-with-me-are-dumb. Yawn.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 25, 2016, 12:34:59 am

Yep you're right man, we don't build or manufacture much anymore, maybe it's all service industries now, my dad said the same thing a generation ago. Nothing has changed in 50 years, the car industry gone, the rail industry gone, steel industry gone, ship building gone almost, electronics started but gone...

And whose fault is that?

Ours.   (the Royal ours - us as a western population)

We want everything to be as cheap as possible.  We are happy to live in a disposable-cheap-shit-from-China society.
I sit here wearing my £10 jeans (these are my posh ones as I've been out for a meal, day-to-day I wear £5 ones, for work I wear £3 ones) with my £20 smartphone in the pocket.

No-one in the West is going to be able to compete with the far east for mass-production, as has been said, those days are gone.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 25, 2016, 12:44:48 am
Quote
India and China have a bigger space program than we do

When you look to assess a country or a company's future, look to how much they invest in their future, in terms of R&D or human capital.

Take a look at most western country's R&D $ as a percentage of GDP, both historically and horizontally, and see how much correlation there is with that country's prosperity down the line. Do the same for the corporations.

People laugh at China and India for how poor they are - they are very poor; People laugh at China and India for how low-tech and low quality their products are - they are indeed very poor.

Those people are losers because they don't see how much those countries are re-investing in their future, a remarkably courageous thing to do given how poor those two countries are. Those are the same people that laughed at poor Sony radios, or Datsun cars, or Lexus vehicles, etc. Look whose laughing now?

earlier this week, China just surprised the US with the most super-computers, on its own processors.

When you are trying to look into the future, only fools will focus on the past.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 25, 2016, 01:28:02 am
No-one in the West is going to be able to compete with the far east for mass-production, as has been said, those days are gone.

Robots will.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 25, 2016, 01:42:27 am
People laugh at China and India for how poor they are - they are very poor; People laugh at China and India for how low-tech and low quality their products are - they are indeed very poor.

I don't laugh at China, they are climbing up in level of sophistication and innovation even faster than the Japanese did. Shame that communism destroyed their ethical framework, the mix of mercenary mindset and semi communist nationalism is running out of steam ... becoming dangerous actually, with military expansionism rampant. They need a rebirth of Confucianism, they might very well get it too.

I don't laugh at India either, because it's just such a sad situation. Massive overpopulation, massive trade deficits and a neighbor who has both of those things far worse ... and they both hate each other and have nukes. The ultimate powderkeg of the modern world.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 25, 2016, 03:36:12 am
Now that the dust is beginning to settle.

I think this EXIT/brexit was sort of forced (regardless if you supported leave or remain), because of the way that the EU, has a SOLID/inflexible structure/functionality to it. So that attempts to modify/moderate its functionality, to make people (especially in the UK, but probably in other member states), continue to be happy with it. Was in real terms, NOT possible.

Presumably if it had been modifiable, and allowed some changes. The Leave and Remain camps, could have been made happy with the new EU, and continued with it.

The relative lack of voting (within the EU system, by the EU population) and its (apparent) extreme reluctance to change or compromise, has probably been a major factor in its demise (at least as regards the UK).

The Leave camp, had two choices. Leave or put up with a lack of response to their requirements.

Things have changed over the years, and we (UK/EU/World) are facing fresh challenges, which were probably NOT known about, in the 1970's, when the EEC came about.

If the EU was doing a good job, >85% of the UK, should have voted to remain. So it being about 52% leave, 48% remain, was a poor showing by the EU, anyway.

I wonder how many of the 48% (approx) remain camp, also wanted improvements to the EU, as well. But were too worried about what would happen if we left it.

As an individual, I'm NOT 100% sure, if leave or remain, was the best/right thing. Who knows what might happen in the future, which could have a big bearing on the best solution.

As with most people, I'm not that sure of the full range of things that the EU does. In some respects, I think it was an overly complicated decision, for people to have to make. Yes, we should all be getting votes. But on the other hand, most of us may not know enough about it, to make the correct/informed decision.

If other countries of the EU, also end up having referendums, then things could get interesting, as time goes on.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on June 25, 2016, 03:54:13 am
Almost all the reaction to the result of BREXIT that I have seen is based on the premise that it is an immutable fact that the UK will be leaving the EU.

Is it not something that may not happen - or be indeterminately delayed?

Might the EU hierarchy take this result - and the grumblings from other quarters - as a sign that they need change if they want to keep justifying their existence and keep their jobs?

Might there be changes that address enough issues for the UK to reconsider?



Or am I being too optimistic?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 25, 2016, 04:03:36 am
Almost all the reaction to the result of BREXIT that I have seen is based on the premise that it is an immutable fact that the UK will be leaving the EU.

Is it not something that may not happen - or be indeterminately delayed?

Might the EU hierarchy take this result - and the grumblings from other quarters - as a sign that they need change if they want to keep justifying their existence and keep their jobs?

Might there be changes that address enough issues for the UK to reconsider?



Or am I being too optimistic?

No, it does definitely seem that OUT is OUT.

Given the UK Prime Minister has announced his resignation, where he will be leaving later this year.

It does seem very FINAL.

On the other hand, if a number of other EU countries have referendums, and also want out. Maybe some kind of compromise or something, can be attempted to be sorted out ?

Anyway, the exit time, is apparently two years, from officially telling the EU, you want to leave. But it can take longer, by mutual agreement.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tautech on June 25, 2016, 04:23:07 am
Now that the dust is beginning to settle.

I think this EXIT/brexit was sort of forced (regardless if you supported leave or remain), because of the way that the EU, has a SOLID/inflexible structure/functionality to it. So that attempts to modify/moderate its functionality, to make people (especially in the UK, but probably in other member states), continue to be happy with it. Was in real terms, NOT possible.

Presumably if it had been modifiable, and allowed some changes. The Leave and Remain camps, could have been made happy with the new EU, and continued with it.

The relative lack of voting (within the EU system, by the EU population) and its (apparent) extreme reluctance to change or compromise, has probably been a major factor in its demise (at least as regards the UK).

The Leave camp, had two choices. Leave or put up with a lack of response to their requirements.

Things have changed over the years, and we (UK/EU/World) are facing fresh challenges, which were probably NOT known about, in the 1970's, when the EEC came about.

If the EU was doing a good job, >85% of the UK, should have voted to remain. So it being about 52% leave, 48% remain, was a poor showing by the EU, anyway.

I wonder how many of the 48% (approx) remain camp, also wanted improvements to the EU, as well. But were too worried about what would happen if we left it.

That's a fair analysis ^^^^^much the same as media is reporting here in NZ.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: KJDS on June 25, 2016, 05:15:18 am
May you live in interesting times.

It will be left to history to determine if it's the right or wrong decision, but I suspect that the UK will see less change than the EU will. I suspect that most of the leave voters are fed up with the whole political system and the few layers of it that we have to contend with the better.

If only we could have a referendum preventing anyone from becoming a politician who hadn't spent a year doing a dead end job and two years running their own business the world might be a better place. It's far too stuffed with career politicians far too detached from the reality of real life.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tautech on June 25, 2016, 05:22:23 am
If only we could have a referendum preventing anyone from becoming a politician who hadn't spent a year doing a dead end job and two years running their own business the world might be a better place. It's far too stuffed with career politicians far too detached from the reality of real life.
Don't we all wish so. ^^^
Trouble is any inkling of that happening they'll pass a law that all poly's need be involved in things political (local body stuff) for 5 years or more before being "qualified" for parliament. Who has time for local body stuff and running a business.  :scared:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 25, 2016, 05:28:35 am
Quote
May you live in interesting times

So  interesting ,when  the UK will go into  at a dissolution proccess the same form that Yugoslavia : The North Ireland wants join to Ireland , Scottland wast the independace from England and London too.

With the great goal of England for becoming at the new Portugal(According they say: That Portugal isn't nothing without their colonies  )

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jitter on June 25, 2016, 05:39:27 am
The United Kingdom is not so united. We'll see time will tell.

I think when push comes to shove, the same thing could be said for the whole of the EU or other unions of people with differing backgrounds and cultures (like the Soviet Union).
I would not be surprised if the UK's example will be followed by other nations in the long run.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: ez24 on June 25, 2016, 07:22:42 am
When is the locust from Egypt coming?   (I want to stock up on food)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: SteveyG on June 25, 2016, 07:53:29 am
Now that the dust is beginning to settle.

I think this EXIT/brexit was sort of forced (regardless if you supported leave or remain), because of the way that the EU, has a SOLID/inflexible structure/functionality to it. So that attempts to modify/moderate its functionality, to make people (especially in the UK, but probably in other member states), continue to be happy with it. Was in real terms, NOT possible.

Presumably if it had been modifiable, and allowed some changes. The Leave and Remain camps, could have been made happy with the new EU, and continued with it.

The relative lack of voting (within the EU system, by the EU population) and its (apparent) extreme reluctance to change or compromise, has probably been a major factor in its demise (at least as regards the UK).

The Leave camp, had two choices. Leave or put up with a lack of response to their requirements.

Things have changed over the years, and we (UK/EU/World) are facing fresh challenges, which were probably NOT known about, in the 1970's, when the EEC came about.

If the EU was doing a good job, >85% of the UK, should have voted to remain. So it being about 52% leave, 48% remain, was a poor showing by the EU, anyway.

I wonder how many of the 48% (approx) remain camp, also wanted improvements to the EU, as well. But were too worried about what would happen if we left it.

As an individual, I'm NOT 100% sure, if leave or remain, was the best/right thing. Who knows what might happen in the future, which could have a big bearing on the best solution.

As with most people, I'm not that sure of the full range of things that the EU does. In some respects, I think it was an overly complicated decision, for people to have to make. Yes, we should all be getting votes. But on the other hand, most of us may not know enough about it, to make the correct/informed decision.

If other countries of the EU, also end up having referendums, then things could get interesting, as time goes on.

I think you're giving the public too much credit. It seems people didn't know what they were voting for or that their vote even counted if you go by some of the videos of interviewers talking to randomers on the street. It's nuts to think the people voting for Big Brother or I'm A Celebrity are the ones deciding on such an important matter.  :wtf:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 25, 2016, 08:10:48 am
Might there be changes that address enough issues for the UK to reconsider?
You can also argue that the UK brought it on theirselves. The UK has been cherry picking options instead of getting the full package. The likely problem is that in order for the EU to work for a country it needs to get the full package (including the euro).
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 25, 2016, 08:53:24 am
Almost all the reaction to the result of BREXIT that I have seen is based on the premise that it is an immutable fact that the UK will be leaving the EU.

Is it not something that may not happen - or be indeterminately delayed?
Cameron and Boris Johnson said there is no need to hurry, we can start to think about it sometime. On the other hand EU reply was certain - as you leave, do it asap, don't keep the whole continent in uncertainty.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/24/eu-referendum-brexit-live-europe-leave-remain-britain (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jun/24/eu-referendum-brexit-live-europe-leave-remain-britain)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: onesixright on June 25, 2016, 09:06:31 am
Can somebody explain why they choose a simple majority as (½ + 1) to seal the deal?  :palm:

For some things that sounds right, but i would think that from a democratic perspective this is way to simple when thinks have a huge impact? Not uncommon that you need a ? majority for these things?

Also people voting that are passed, lets say 70, have a equal say in something that the younger generation needs to live with?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: firewalker on June 25, 2016, 09:09:59 am
EU is now twisting Cameron's arm really hard for not resigning asap...

Alexander.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rolycat on June 25, 2016, 09:12:02 am
It seems people didn't know what they were voting for or that their vote even counted if you go by some of the videos of interviewers talking to randomers on the street. It's nuts to think the people voting for Big Brother or I'm A Celebrity are the ones deciding on such an important matter.  :wtf:

Which is why we usually pay politicians to make our decisions for us. They are supposed to make the right choice for the country even if it is unpopular.

Unfortunately politicians and bureaucrats all over Europe have been making unpopular choices for a long time. If every EU country had held a similar referendum, a number of them would probably have had a similar outcome - the population of France is reportedly more Eurosceptic than that of the UK.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: FreddyVictor on June 25, 2016, 09:53:11 am
(http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_630_noupscale/576cfb1c2200002e00f82c23.png)

According to Yougov, 75% in age of 18–24 vote remain while 59% over 65 vote for leave! So now grand children are mighty pissed! >:D

Actually a very few people on my FB feed have seriously been suggesting that older people should not have been allowed to vote. At that stage, I remind them of the similarity to denying votes to women, or apartheid, and the irony of them supposedly supporting EU inclusivity and egalitarianism.
was a BBC R4 program late last night with 'younger people' on a similar theme basically claiming it "wasn't fair" older people deciding their future ...  :palm:

they're fully onboard with the EU's idea of 'democracy' then !
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 25, 2016, 09:58:59 am
"Also people voting that are passed, lets say 70, have a equal say in something that the younger generation needs to live with?"

How about the unborn? They have far more to loss than today's young.

Or the rich?

Or people who live in areas more connected to the EU?

Or people who work in the EU?

Or people who's livelihood depends on the EU?


Should they get more votes than you do?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Alex Nikitin on June 25, 2016, 10:01:36 am

was a BBC R4 program late last night with 'younger people' on a similar theme basically claiming it "wasn't fair" older people deciding their future ...  :palm:

they're fully onboard with the EU's idea of 'democracy' then !

What's worse those young people state "a great uncertainty" as the reason against leaving EU. Which is in my book an old fart's mentality. I think the exit will do a lot of good for that generation  ;) . Hopefully it is not too late.

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 25, 2016, 10:05:35 am
I wonder if the Greeks would agree. They have both more to gain and more to lose from leaving the eurozone.

If the Dublin accords are re-instituted it will be hard for them to stay. The only reason politicians and the media can close their eyes to the reality that the current asylum system and the current human rights laws are suicidal is because it's happening in slow motion.

If Greece can't pass off its refugees the humanitarian facade it's trying to put on now will disappear quickly. It would either have to quickly look for the most humane realistic solutions (which realistically won't be nearly humane enough for the EU human rights court) or let Golden dawn take over ... at which point there will be fast and inhumane solutions.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 25, 2016, 10:12:32 am
But from way over here it seems there is a growing mistrust of the political class (that includes Australia). I've even heard commentary that Scotland wants to revist leaving the EU (ie stay) and splitting from the UK and Ireland wants to as well and even combining with Northern Ireland. Does anyone really know what's going on?

The anti-democratic, dictatorial nature of the EU really didn't help their cause, they were also something our own politicians could hide behind to avoid accountability.

Regarding Northern Ireland. It's complicated. http://www.history.co.uk/shows/soldiers-stories/articles/northern-ireland-conflict (http://www.history.co.uk/shows/soldiers-stories/articles/northern-ireland-conflict) probably best not to throw stones at that hornet's nest to try and make some small political point.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: firewalker on June 25, 2016, 10:16:56 am
If the Dublin accords are re-instituted...

It will be more or less an act of war.

Greece will be left with two options.

Take military action against refuges and immigrants. It will trigger other countries to "punish" Greece.

Provide safe passage to the refuges to other countries. Because refuges and immigrants doesn;t want to stay in Greece. It will trigger other countries to "punish" Greece for not killing refuges and immigrants.

Alexander.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: XynxNet on June 25, 2016, 10:21:28 am
The UK has been cherry picking options instead of getting the full package. The likely problem is that in order for the EU to work for a country it needs to get the full package (including the euro).
I agree with that. Most of EU's problems stem from lack of tighter integration, a thing britain vetoed for years.

Just look at the greek situation. It is really sad, that such a relativ insignificant dept ruins a country because EU is not integrated enough to just pay it of and institute changes which solve the underlying problems in a way that's beneficial for the greek people.

Hopefully EU will now move on to a more effectiv and more integrated union.

As far as britain is concerned, I hope for a smooth transition. They are still our neighbour. We still want to trade with them. They are still our friends. Conditions might be a bit harder, but EU trades successfully with a lot of non-members. I just hope that britain can make some of the advantages/things work out, which they were promised with the brexit.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Alex Nikitin on June 25, 2016, 10:27:10 am
The UK has been cherry picking options instead of getting the full package. The likely problem is that in order for the EU to work for a country it needs to get the full package (including the euro).
I agree with that. Most of EU's problems stem from lack of tighter integration, a thing britain vetoed for years.

Just look at the greek situation. It is really sad, that such a relativ insignificant dept ruins a country because EU is not integrated enough to just pay it of and institute changes which solve the underlying problems in a way that's beneficial for the greek people.

Hopefully EU will now move on to a more effectiv and more integrated union.

That is exactly why the UK is out of this crap - hopefully for good.

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 25, 2016, 10:30:38 am
Take military action against refuges and immigrants.

You'll need the military to deal with the inevitable people who think rioting will bring them to the land of milk and honey, but eventually they will accept reality. It's preferable to a bullet in the head. After that you do what most countries less burdened by human rights laws do, put them in camps until they are ready to go back.

Quote
Because refuges and immigrants doesn;t want to stay in Greece.

Beggars can't be choosers.

We can't save the ME and Africa through migration, it's utterly impossible from a numbers perspective. If we keep trying then at some point white flight will kick in on a massive scale and European economy and agricultural output will collapse, we'll be a help to no one at that point. They will have to deal with their problems, the greatest of which is their lack of renewable water resources per capita (global warming is a drop in the overpopulated ocean of causes for that).
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: firewalker on June 25, 2016, 10:35:09 am
Just look at the greek situation. It is really sad, that such a relativ insignificant dept ruins a country because EU is not integrated enough to just pay it of and institute changes which solve the underlying problems in a way that's beneficial for the greek people.

No, paying for it, is the wrong thing (at least the way it is implemented now). You are giving us money to pay back a loan you gave us. It is madness. And the you will give us money to pay back the money you gave us to pay a loan you gave us...

Greece was forced not to cut expenses from military equipment. Because it would mean that German companies would loose money. EU is giving us money to buy weapons from EU countries! On the other hand cuts were made to the health care system and education.

Alexander.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: firewalker on June 25, 2016, 10:38:40 am
After that you do what most countries less burdened by human rights laws do, put them in camps until they are ready to go back.

I don;t think you understand how small Greece is.


The solution is one and only. Stop starting wars to foreign countries.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: XynxNet on June 25, 2016, 10:40:47 am
Just look at the greek situation. It is really sad, that such a relativ insignificant dept ruins a country because EU is not integrated enough to just pay it of and institute changes which solve the underlying problems in a way that's beneficial for the greek people.

No, paying for it, is the wrong thing (at least the way it is implemented now). You are giving us money to pay back a loan you gave us. It is madness. And the you will give us money to pay back the money you gave us to pay a loan you gave us...

Greece was forced not to cut expenses from military equipment. Because it would mean that German companies would loose money. EU is giving us money to buy weapons from EU countries! On the other hand cuts were made to the health care system and education.

Alexander.
Yes that's the problem with lack of integration. EU should focus on equalising living standards in all countries and well being of all member people.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 25, 2016, 10:44:37 am
The solution is one and only. Stop starting wars to foreign countries.

It doesn't matter any more, undocumented migrants make up much of the flow ... and despite the pretense that we can repatriate them, they way we are now we can't.

This flow will never stop until we make fundamental changes in how we treat them, overpopulation and aquifer depletion will ensure it. Syria was always heading to disaster one way or another (https://www.newsecuritybeat.org/2010/09/syria-at-the-crossroads-beyond-the-euphrates/), this just happened to be the way it went down.

PS. the Euro was a mistake, taking away the ability of the printing press from governments created a massive amount of moral hazard and if there is one thing the financial industry can be counted upon is having no morals ... so it simply created a massive hazard. Printing presses and inflation are necessary to keep both government borrowers and lenders honest.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: woodchips on June 25, 2016, 11:52:46 am
So, vote taken, result known, what now?

May for PM, clever, a woman, thinks.
Gove for negotiations, clever, takes hard decisions.
Johnson for roving ambasador to tell the rest of the world why we did it and what we do now.

Several other clever MPs for other jobs, and that includes Labour, Lib Dem etc.

I think we need to start the Article 50 now. Simple questions to the EU, such as are you going to let us have tarrif free access to the single market? Yes, then you have likewise to the UK, no, then you are charged the same tarrifs as you charge us. Take all of 10 minutes to decide. Most other points are similar. No payments in, no money out for CAP, universities etc. We will pay out share of CERN and similar projects. No outside fishing, no UK registered but foreign trawlers.

It will undoubtably cause ructions, but it will also be a good test of how important countries see the changes and how hard they want to fight for them, will short circuit lots of talking. Besides, who ever said that a decision now can't be changed?

It is real, people have got to start making decisions, not waffle for 10 years. Besides, I am not at all certain I trust the EU not to stuff us during the negotiations, like they have done so many times before, read Why Vote Leave by Hannan.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vk6zgo on June 25, 2016, 12:06:51 pm
Please welcome us back Kiwis, Ozzies, and Hosers. Let's not forget the West Indies, Hong Kong, India, most of Africa, and all the other former colonies (USA too!). Let's get back to a commonwealth trading partnership without EU intervention.  :-+

Don't come running back to us,bleating about "Our common British heritage"---we've moved on! ;D
You let us know where we belonged in the pecking order back in the 1970s.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jitter on June 25, 2016, 12:18:53 pm
This flow will never stop until we make fundamental changes in how we treat them, overpopulation and aquifer depletion will ensure it.

These are inevitable consequences, yes. Be we must also look to ourselves and ask ourselves if we want to keep adhering to a growth economy at all cost knowing full well that we cannot sustain growth indefinitely and that the end is in clear sight. This is the "inconvenient truth" someone tried to make us aware of long ago and now this influx of refugees will drive home the point in the near future.

These things are not as unrelated as they might seem at first.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Fraser on June 25, 2016, 12:33:02 pm
I do not normally comment on political matters as everyone has their own view and things can get heated quickly. However this is a friendly forum so I will risk it.

I am 48 and voted to leave the EU. Some may dislike me for that but hey, we live in a true democracy and we have just witnessed that in this referendum.

I read that some youngsters are angry as they think they have lost their future? This quite frankly annoys me. These persons seem to take the view that everything should be handed to them on a plate with no challenges. The U.K. appears to have bred a generation that contains some real pussies (not all though). The military have noted that we in the UK have become 'soft' and many applicants cannot pass the basic entry tests they carry out. If I want a job in the UK or a foreign country, I will work for it and ensure such a company wants to employ me. Being in the EU is not essential for such. Some youngsters need to grow up and realise you have to earn a good life, it is not free or a right.

On a much more serious note, Europe has been relatively peaceful. NATO is still active and effective. I do not see Europe suffering a decline into war any time soon. Which is good. BUT be aware that major events such as World War has instigated significant change, hopefully for the better. I hate War and consider such a failure as lives are lost. Those who disagree with what we, in the UK, have just done should maybe consider this a much better alternative to a War mixing things up? We may have lobbed a metaphorical hand grenade into the heart of the EU, but this could be what is needed to force a review of its operation by its members. If the EU was not so disfunctional and intent on borging all members into a 'superstate' I would not have voted to leave. Sadly, the U.K. May have effectively had to fall on its metaphorical sword in order to force changes that may not actually benefit it.

As to us in Blighty and our future...... We are a very old and generally sensible sea faring nation that used to run an empire that reached across the world. Our blood stock is strong and adventurous at its heart, we have just lost our way a little in recent decades. Yes British nationals have become 'Soft' and lost their sense of adventure and discovery. We will have to change, and I believe it will be for our betterment. I do not want us to become an Empire again as much occurred that I am not proud of, BUT I do want us to regain our national pride and self confidence. We can indeed be Great again and hopefully inspire others to be so as well. Great Britain can be an important player in world politics and economies, if allowed to rediscover itself and its heart of adventure.

I truly hope that the EU realises that the UK does not dislike our European friends, It is just that more than half of us believe the EU needs significant reform and should not necessarily be a 'Big Brother' that cannot effectively be negotiated with by members. The hysteria and anger that appears to have followed our decision is understandable but still disappointing. A bit like a divorce..... Emotions run high, but calm will return.

Finally, I watched an interview with a Polish EU representative (Commissioner?) yesterday. All went well until he thought the interview was over. Afterwards he said, In précis.......

"My father flew as a Polish pilot in the RAF during WWII..... Do not expect the Polish nation to come to your aid in the future! "

He said he was very angry with the U.K.

Oh dear. Emotions running high and he needs to stop and think about what his father was actually fighting for in the RAF....... Democracy and the defeat of a country that wanted a superstate ! His father fought for freedom, not specifically for Great Britain. I might add I have no issue with Germany or its population. We all have regrettable actions in our long histories, Britain included. It was very sad to see a so called intelligent Polish representative making such a silly and inaccurate statement though. I have a great liking for Poland and hope that the population does not think like this one chap. We are still in NATO and would defend the rights of its member nations. Why would EU politics ruin that relationship ?

I will get off my soap box now but please, my European friends and disgruntled 'remain' voters, consider this the beginning of a great new era in Europe that did not take a major War for it to come about. Be thankful for what we have and the adventure that we will be embarking upon.

And most importantly, be good to eachother, no matter the political views or beliefs.

Fraser
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kalvin on June 25, 2016, 12:33:54 pm
Britain needs two more voting rounds:

1. Shall we have a vote for another vote in which we vote for "Remain" or "Leave".
2. Shall we "Remain" or "Leave", this time I really mean it after I Googled for "What is EU", "What it means to leave the EU" and the "£350m for the NHS" is not going to happen.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vk6zgo on June 25, 2016, 12:47:31 pm
Quote
I think the UK government will fight to remain in the EU single market

With Cameron gone, it is hard to expect the UK government to follow through on that. They will try to negotiate the best deals they can get now.

I predicted the demise of the Cameron government earlier here, should Brexit materialize. I think you will see the collapse of additional governments in Europe, particularly the left-leaning governments. There is a swing to the right across the continent. Not dissimilar to the time just before the rise of Hitler.

And you can thank all of that to the abuse of power / trust voters had given to the far left politicians over the last decade.

I think you have "the bull by the horns"!

David Cameron's Government is a Conservative Party one.
The British Conservatives (Tories) were "conservative" back when the Republicans were raging liberals! ;D
Maggie Thatcher,that heroine of the Neo-Cons, was unenthusiastic about many aspects of the EU,back when she was PM,but was still determined to stay.

Euro-enthusiasm & Euroscepticism  is spread over  the whole spectrum of British politics.,& has been for years.
This is just the latest of  a number of such referenda since the 1970s.
The other times,people voted to stay,so I guess "If at first you don't succeed,try,try,again." does work! ;D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroscepticism_in_the_United_Kingdom

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: KJDS on June 25, 2016, 01:00:31 pm
Please welcome us back Kiwis, Ozzies, and Hosers. Let's not forget the West Indies, Hong Kong, India, most of Africa, and all the other former colonies (USA too!). Let's get back to a commonwealth trading partnership without EU intervention.  :-+

Don't come running back to us,bleating about "Our common British heritage"---we've moved on! ;D
You let us know where we belonged in the pecking order back in the 1970s.

I'm more concerned that our rugby team continues to make the progress we've shown in the last few months.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Fraser on June 25, 2016, 01:03:38 pm
Wilfred,

My father was a 'war child' and after 1945 there was great austerity in the UK. Rationing of food. National Service and the need to gain a decent education in order to get a good job. He worked hard to achieve and retired from senior management job. Nothing came easy for him. I have never heard him whinge or complain though. They bred them tough in those days. I benefitted from his example and also worked hard to do a job that was, for me, a vocation. The salary was poor but I worked for my country. And it's betterment. That was enough.

You understand that I feel annoyed when I see whinging students on the TV saying people like me and the 'old' just ruined their future ! I flipping paid towards their darned education and worked towards a better world for them for heavens sake.

Yes the finances of our country are in the toilet and it would appear that we have become 'soft' and very materialistic during my life, but that is why change is needed. New challenges that our younger generation should rise to and regain their spirit of adventure that my generation seem to have lost. Face the fear. It worked for me :)

Fraser
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tandy on June 25, 2016, 01:07:47 pm
There are young people protesting that they have been taken out of the EU when they didn't want that. They are clearly frustrated that they were outvoted by older generations into doing something they didn't want. They seemingly don't know how democracy works or don't want to live in one.

The thing I find most ironic is that the EU imposes things on these same young people all the time and yet none of them get a say in those decisions and that doesn't seem to bother them? At least they had an opportunity to vote and now they will have a greater influence over their own future by having the power to hold the lawmakers of this country to account.

I think one of the reasons for the difference in voting is that young people are perhaps a little more idealistic than older people. I think life experience makes us realise that thing rarely live up to expectations. Political promises, new technologies offer so much but only a small number of them deliver on those promises.

The thing that I find most difficult to get my head around is the Scotland vote, a significant proportion of Scottish people are unhappy about the way England has such a big influence over the governance of Scotland and would like to have more control over their own affairs. Why is it they don't feel the same about the EU?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kalvin on June 25, 2016, 01:08:02 pm
Has Her Majesty the Queen said anything yet, as the Britain got back its independence? If the vote's result was good for the Britain, Mr. Cameron should become Sir Cameron.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on June 25, 2016, 01:28:41 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kalvin on June 25, 2016, 01:29:08 pm
Now they must learn to deal with a new future. It will take time to adjust.

I guess those were also the exact comforting words that was said in the "freed" countries after the WWII. Interestingly enough they wanted to give back their "freedom" as soon as it was possible. Of course, those countries didn't have the luxury to get a vote after WWII.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jitter on June 25, 2016, 01:30:20 pm
I do not normally comment on political matters as everyone has their own view and things can get heated quickly. However this is a friendly forum so I will risk it.

I am 48 and voted to leave the EU. Some may dislike me for that but hey, we live in a true democracy and we have just witnessed that in this referendum.

I read that some youngsters are angry as they think they have lost their future? This quite frankly annoys me. These persons seem to take the view that everything should be handed to them on a plate with no challenges. The U.K. appears to have bred a generation that contains some real pussies (not all though). The military have noted that we in the UK have become 'soft' and many applicants cannot pass the basic entry tests they carry out. If I want a job in the UK or a foreign country, I will work for it and ensure such a company wants to employ me. Being in the EU is not essential for such. Some youngsters need to grow up and realise you have to earn a good life, it is not free or a right.

On a much more serious note, Europe has been relatively peaceful. NATO is still active and effective. I do not see Europe suffering a decline into war any time soon. Which is good. BUT be aware that major events such as World War has instigated significant change, hopefully for the better. I hate War and consider such a failure as lives are lost. Those who disagree with what we, in the UK, have just done should maybe consider this a much better alternative to a War mixing things up? We may have lobbed a metaphorical hand grenade into the heart of the EU, but this could be what is needed to force a review of its operation by its members. If the EU was not so disfunctional and intent on borging all members into a 'superstate' I would not have voted to leave. Sadly, the U.K. May have effectively had to fall on its metaphorical sword in order to force changes that may not actually benefit it.

As to us in Blighty and our future...... We are a very old and generally sensible sea faring nation that used to run an empire that reached across the world. Our blood stock is strong and adventurous at its heart, we have just lost our way a little in recent decades. Yes British nationals have become 'Soft' and lost their sense of adventure and discovery. We will have to change, and I believe it will be for our betterment. I do not want us to become an Empire again as much occurred that I am not proud of, BUT I do want us to regain our national pride and self confidence. We can indeed be Great again and hopefully inspire others to be so as well. Great Britain can be an important player in world politics and economies, if allowed to rediscover itself and its heart of adventure.

I truly hope that the EU realises that the UK does not dislike our European friends, It is just that more than half of us believe the EU needs significant reform and should not necessarily be a 'Big Brother' that cannot effectively be negotiated with by members. The hysteria and anger that appears to have followed our decision is understandable but still disappointing. A bit like a divorce..... Emotions run high, but calm will return.

Finally, I watched an interview with a Polish EU representative (Commissioner?) yesterday. All went well until he thought the interview was over. Afterwards he said, In précis.......

"My father flew as a Polish pilot in the RAF during WWII..... Do not expect the Polish nation to come to your aid in the future! "

He said he was very angry with the U.K.

Oh dear. Emotions running high and he needs to stop and think about what his father was actually fighting for in the RAF....... Democracy and the defeat of a country that wanted a superstate ! His father fought for freedom, not specifically for Great Britain. I might add I have no issue with Germany or its population. We all have regrettable actions in our long histories, Britain included. It was very sad to see a so called intelligent Polish representative making such a silly and inaccurate statement though. I have a great liking for Poland and hope that the population does not think like this one chap. We are still in NATO and would defend the rights of its member nations. Why would EU politics ruin that relationship ?

I will get off my soap box now but please, my European friends and disgruntled 'remain' voters, consider this the beginning of a great new era in Europe that did not take a major War for it to come about. Be thankful for what we have and the adventure that we will be embarking upon.

And most importantly, be good to eachother, no matter the political views or beliefs.

Fraser

Well said. I think everything in here I could agree on.

I'm not big on politics either, I like to keep looking at the bigger picture and in the longer run and I have a feeling that most politicians only look at their corner and not far ahead at all. Leave the real problems to be solved by the successor.
You may have noticed that right now I'm not very positive about the long term challenges humanity is still trying to ignore. But since "nature" has no such concepts as good or bad just mechanisms that will find a balance, those will inevitably come.

Political changes are needed, and the UK leaving the EU might just be the start of the necessary change, that is if the motivations to leave the EU were legitimate ones. Not just in the EU, all over the world.

Yes that will lead to disappointment and even resentment from the "other side", it's only natural. But in the end, like with an unhappy marriage, parting ways might be the better choice.

The least I hope will happen is that the EU beaurocrats scratch behind their ears and ask themselves if maybe they had a hand in what has happened. Or will they put the blame all on the UK (if so, I'd also be voting to leave the EU should it come to a referendum over here).
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Fraser on June 25, 2016, 01:31:01 pm
Wilfred,

Indeed, I see your point. Let us hope that time will heal the rift that appears to have occurred in the UK between the leave and stay population.

My father said he is more concerned about Northern Ireland and the possibility of renewed troubles there's. Having discussed it with him and seen some television interviews, I share his concerns. Scotland is unlikely to take up arms against England, but history shows that elements within N. Ireland are more than capable of doing so :(

Fraser
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: AndyC_772 on June 25, 2016, 01:43:26 pm
Indeed, I see your point. Let us hope that time will heal the rift that appears to have occurred in the UK between the leave and stay population.

I'm sure it will. After every general election we end up with a government that most people didn't vote for. Somehow we manage.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 25, 2016, 02:07:38 pm
I think you're giving the public too much credit. It seems people didn't know what they were voting for or that their vote even counted if you go by some of the videos of interviewers talking to randomers on the street. It's nuts to think the people voting for Big Brother or I'm A Celebrity are the ones deciding on such an important matter.  :wtf:

I agree, many people lack much knowledge about the situation. Many people either dislike politics and/or are completely fed up with the current political situation (domestically in the UK).
Most seem to agree, that no one really knows what will/would happen beforehand, if we had chosen Leave or Remain.

It's a bit like having a big brother or talent show, where we DON'T get to see the singers/actors/show and know little about them, until AFTER the voting finishes.

I have been somewhat disappointed, with how little the EU seemed to do, to present its case to the UK public. Maybe there was some regulation(s), preventing it ?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: G0HZU on June 25, 2016, 02:26:52 pm
I think you're giving the public too much credit. It seems people didn't know what they were voting for or that their vote even counted if you go by some of the videos of interviewers talking to randomers on the street. It's nuts to think the people voting for Big Brother or I'm A Celebrity are the ones deciding on such an important matter.  :wtf:

Yes, it's kind of reckless (ludicrous?) to allow the public to decide stuff like this. I've had this argument at work and some of my colleagues still think it's the 'only' way to decide it because that is the way democracy works.

Imagine if problems associated with science and the laws of physics were decided by a referendum. I can imagine an amusing Monty Python sketch covering this with various characters interviewed on a typical high street in Britain.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jitter on June 25, 2016, 02:30:38 pm
I have been somewhat disappointed, with how little the EU seemed to do, to present its case to the UK public. Maybe there was some regulation(s), preventing it ?

That's a good question. Was there made any effort to win people over? If not, why not?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: G7PSK on June 25, 2016, 02:30:49 pm
The vitriolic respose of the younger generation was stir'd  up and just smoke. The students I saw interviewed on TV were from second rate universities, so what's the difference they can still go and flip burgers in Berlin instead of Brixton that wont change for a long time if ever. As far as I am concerned on Thursday I had the chance to rectify a mistake i made forty odd years ago, if you loose a vote you suck it up and move on, welcome to democracy. Anyway the French hate us, they have never forgiven us for bashing Napoleon. :-DD 
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: continuo on June 25, 2016, 02:36:46 pm
I don't understand the concept of a simple majority being considered sufficient to decide on a national action of this gravity. Especially if it is barely any majority and more of a draw between the stay and leave camp. Would've expected something like a required 2/3 winning margin on this   |O
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: G7PSK on June 25, 2016, 02:37:43 pm
http://brokennews.com.au/2016/06/24/australia-leave-au-stralia/ (http://brokennews.com.au/2016/06/24/australia-leave-au-stralia/)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: continuo on June 25, 2016, 02:46:17 pm
I have been somewhat disappointed, with how little the EU seemed to do, to present its case to the UK public. Maybe there was some regulation(s), preventing it ?

That's a good question. Was there made any effort to win people over? If not, why not?

Because Cameron explicitly asked the EU to keep silent. There was the fear that anything from outside the UK would be considered to be foreign intrusion and counterproductive to the stay camp.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Howardlong on June 25, 2016, 02:47:50 pm
http://brokennews.com.au/2016/06/24/australia-leave-au-stralia/ (http://brokennews.com.au/2016/06/24/australia-leave-au-stralia/)

Kinda apt for the BrokenNews website, I am seeing either 500 errors or Resource Limt Reached errors.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 25, 2016, 02:48:19 pm
I don't understand the concept of a simple majority being considered sufficient to decide on a national action of this gravity. Especially if it is barely any majority and more of a draw between the stay and leave camp. Would've expected something like a required 2/3 winning margin on this   |O

On the other hand, you can't/shouldn't show bias like that.
E.g. You could make it 33.333% or less of the vote we remain.
> 33.333% of the vote we leave.

So >50% = Leaving, is then showing no bias.

tl;dr
If the vote needed to be >= 2/3 for a winning majority. Who gets to choose which way the options are set out.
I.e. >= 2/3 Leave
Or
>= 2/3 Remain

tl;dr (second)
You could present the question as "Do you want to Remain in the EU ?"
Or
"Do you want to Leave the EU ?"

So if it was >=2/3 of the votes, to be carried through.
Who gets to decide which way round the question is set ?

I understand your concerns. But perceive 50% as being the correct/fair threshold.

On the other hand a higher threshold, would give a degree of hysteresis and/or safety margin, stability.
Another way of looking at it, is if 65% want to LEAVE and only 35% want to remain. It seems rather UNFAIR if the threshold was 2/3, so 65% < 66.66666%, so we would have to STAY, which would upset the majority (Leave supporters).
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 25, 2016, 02:51:16 pm
Please welcome us back Kiwis, Ozzies, and Hosers. Let's not forget the West Indies, Hong Kong, India, most of Africa, and all the other former colonies (USA too!). Let's get back to a commonwealth trading partnership without EU intervention.  :-+

Don't come running back to us,bleating about "Our common British heritage"---we've moved on! ;D
You let us know where we belonged in the pecking order back in the 1970s.

Oops !!  : :-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Howardlong on June 25, 2016, 02:51:26 pm
I have been somewhat disappointed, with how little the EU seemed to do, to present its case to the UK public. Maybe there was some regulation(s), preventing it ?

That's a good question. Was there made any effort to win people over? If not, why not?

Because Cameron explicitly asked the EU to keep silent. There was the fear that anything from outside the UK would be considered to be foreign intrusion and counterproductive to the stay camp.

On that, I'd strongly suggest he was right.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 25, 2016, 02:51:50 pm
Because Cameron explicitly asked the EU to keep silent. There was the fear that anything from outside the UK would be considered to be foreign intrusion and counterproductive to the stay camp.

Assuming that is true, then that is sad/worrying.
I would much prefer the voting public to be presented with plenty of accurate/full information, to help them decide the correct course of action. Especially as 52% vs 48% is VERY close. So small details like that, could easily swing it the other way.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 25, 2016, 02:53:12 pm
I don't understand the concept of a simple majority being considered sufficient to decide on a national action of this gravity. Especially if it is barely any majority and more of a draw between the stay and leave camp. Would've expected something like a required 2/3 winning margin on this   |O

You're absolutely right. It should have been set so that a 66% majority were required to stay.

I believe that's perfectly fair and democratic by your reasoning.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 25, 2016, 02:57:03 pm
Britain needs two more voting rounds:

1. Shall we have a vote for another vote in which we vote for "Remain" or "Leave".
2. Shall we "Remain" or "Leave", this time I really mean it after I Googled for "What is EU", "What it means to leave the EU" and the "£350m for the NHS" is not going to happen.

We voted.
It's DONE.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: G7PSK on June 25, 2016, 02:58:05 pm
I don't understand the concept of a simple majority being considered sufficient to decide on a national action of this gravity. Especially if it is barely any majority and more of a draw between the stay and leave camp. Would've expected something like a required 2/3 winning margin on this   |O

You're absolutely right. It should have been set so that a 66% majority were required to stay.

I believe that's perfectly fair and democratic by your reasoning.
In some parts of the UK the vote was well over 70% in favour of leaving, if Scotland and Northern Ireland are left out the Vote is well over 66%. The answer is to leave Ireland to the Irish and start buying bricks again. (to rebuild Hadrian's wall) :-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 25, 2016, 03:06:05 pm
I don't understand the concept of a simple majority being considered sufficient to decide on a national action of this gravity. Especially if it is barely any majority and more of a draw between the stay and leave camp. Would've expected something like a required 2/3 winning margin on this   |O

IT's called Democracy !!.  :palm:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 25, 2016, 03:06:21 pm
Britain needs two more voting rounds:

1. Shall we have a vote for another vote in which we vote for "Remain" or "Leave".
2. Shall we "Remain" or "Leave", this time I really mean it after I Googled for "What is EU", "What it means to leave the EU" and the "£350m for the NHS" is not going to happen.

We voted.
It's DONE.

It's OK most of the stuff now is just sour grapes, people stuck in the EU supporting it's over-ridingly anti-democratic position, by not accepting our democracy.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: FrankD on June 25, 2016, 03:13:59 pm
I don't understand the concept of a simple majority being considered sufficient to decide on a national action of this gravity. Especially if it is barely any majority and more of a draw between the stay and leave camp. Would've expected something like a required 2/3 winning margin on this   |O

You're absolutely right. It should have been set so that a 66% majority were required to stay.

I believe that's perfectly fair and democratic by your reasoning.
In some parts of the UK the vote was well over 70% in favour of leaving, if Scotland and Northern Ireland are left out the Vote is well over 66%. The answer is to leave Ireland to the Irish and start buying bricks again. (to rebuild Hadrian's wall) :-DD

No need for buying bricks. That wall is in good condition in comparison to your other infrastructure.  :-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: continuo on June 25, 2016, 03:17:21 pm
I don't understand the concept of a simple majority being considered sufficient to decide on a national action of this gravity. Especially if it is barely any majority and more of a draw between the stay and leave camp. Would've expected something like a required 2/3 winning margin on this   |O

IT's called Democracy !!.  :palm:

There's a thin border between Democracy and Idiocracy. You may want to read up on qualified majorities, which are often a requirement on decisions of huge impact, especially to prevent the latter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermajority
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: retrolefty on June 25, 2016, 03:26:36 pm
I don't understand the concept of a simple majority being considered sufficient to decide on a national action of this gravity. Especially if it is barely any majority and more of a draw between the stay and leave camp. Would've expected something like a required 2/3 winning margin on this   |O

IT's called Democracy !!.  :palm:

  It's a form of 'direct democracy' and it has a big flaw, often called the tyranny of the majority. My experience with it here in California is that any special interest group(s) just need to raise enough money to qualify some referendum onto the State Ballot and wham, some very silly or very expensive or something with too much unintended consequences gets passed onto a generally uninterested voting (and non-voting) population. I believe in representative democracy, and mostly fear direct democracy.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 25, 2016, 03:27:46 pm
I don't understand the concept of a simple majority being considered sufficient to decide on a national action of this gravity. Especially if it is barely any majority and more of a draw between the stay and leave camp. Would've expected something like a required 2/3 winning margin on this   |O

IT's called Democracy !!.  :palm:

There's a thin border between Democracy and Idiocracy. You may want to read up on qualified majorities, which are often a requirement on decisions of huge impact, especially to prevent the latter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermajority

And you might want to look up the meaning of the word Democracy.
The simple fact is that most people aren't that smart.
When people vote they tend to do it  based on some criteria that they perceive as best for them.
They rarely consider what's best for everyone.
IN fact people do things based on emotion NOT logic or reason.
Look at advertising and politics as good examples of this.
SO the simple answer is one vote for each individual.
ie Demos THE PEOPLE !!
 
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: KJDS on June 25, 2016, 03:28:20 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMaE6toi4mk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMaE6toi4mk)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 25, 2016, 03:29:16 pm
As the  youngters dedide to celebrate a Referendum about the active euthanasia for  older people  greater than 50 years ago , the scottish won't need bricks   :-DD  :-DD  :-DD  :-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: continuo on June 25, 2016, 03:32:07 pm
LOL, sweet:  http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendum-7985017 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendum-7985017)

Farage told the Mirror: “In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.”

Sorry, couldn't resist  ;D
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 25, 2016, 03:32:47 pm
I don't understand the concept of a simple majority being considered sufficient to decide on a national action of this gravity. Especially if it is barely any majority and more of a draw between the stay and leave camp. Would've expected something like a required 2/3 winning margin on this   |O

IT's called Democracy !!.  :palm:

  It's a form of 'direct democracy' and it has a big flaw, often called the tyranny of the majority. My experience with it here in California is that any special interest group(s) just need to raise enough money to qualify some referendum onto the State Ballot and wham, some very silly or very expensive or something with too much unintended consequences gets passed onto a generally uninterested voting (and non-voting) population. I believe in representative democracy, and mostly fear direct democracy.

I guess the flaw there is that most people don't bother to use their vote.
How high is the turn out for these issues ?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 25, 2016, 03:34:16 pm
And now something entirely different!: :)
(http://s27.postimg.org/63wj7h88z/Screen_Shot_2015_08_24_at_12_32_47_AM.png)(https://beastrabban.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/trump-mad-cover.jpg)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 25, 2016, 03:35:01 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMaE6toi4mk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMaE6toi4mk)

Did you know Joe Strummer's dad was a UK diplomat.  ;D
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 25, 2016, 03:40:51 pm
And now something entirely different!: :)
(http://s27.postimg.org/63wj7h88z/Screen_Shot_2015_08_24_at_12_32_47_AM.png)

When he governs ,he will swallow a few toads
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: retrolefty on June 25, 2016, 03:46:03 pm
I don't understand the concept of a simple majority being considered sufficient to decide on a national action of this gravity. Especially if it is barely any majority and more of a draw between the stay and leave camp. Would've expected something like a required 2/3 winning margin on this   |O

IT's called Democracy !!.  :palm:

  It's a form of 'direct democracy' and it has a big flaw, often called the tyranny of the majority. My experience with it here in California is that any special interest group(s) just need to raise enough money to qualify some referendum onto the State Ballot and wham, some very silly or very expensive or something with too much unintended consequences gets passed onto a generally uninterested voting (and non-voting) population. I believe in representative democracy, and mostly fear direct democracy.

I guess the flaw there is that most people don't bother to use their vote.
How high is the turn out for these issues ?

 That's part of the problem, if it's a non-presidential election cycle then the total turnout can be almost criminally low and so just a small actual number of votes can mean it passes. It all too easy for 'the people as a mass' to very well become the tyranny that democracy tries to escape from. Any individual voter almost always votes first for their own self-interest rather then in the best self-interest of one's country.


Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Howardlong on June 25, 2016, 03:53:45 pm
As the  youngters dedide to celebrate a Referendum about the active euthanasia for  older people  greater than 50 years ago , the scottish won't need bricks   :-DD  :-DD  :-DD  :-DD

Without wishing to get into a statistics battle, had the 18-34 demographic turnout been the same as the 35+ demographic, it would have been a different story (assuming voting intentions were the same), but they couldn't be arsed.

There were some individuals -seriously- suggesting that older people shouldn't have had a vote, and aside from reminding them that we've moved on from votes for women and apartheid, maybe if they encouraged their peers gave a sh!t, they might have achieved the goal they were after.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: KJDS on June 25, 2016, 04:02:48 pm
As the  youngters dedide to celebrate a Referendum about the active euthanasia for  older people  greater than 50 years ago , the scottish won't need bricks   :-DD  :-DD  :-DD  :-DD

Without wishing to get into a statistics battle, had the 18-34 demographic turnout been the same as the 35+ demographic, it would have been a different story (assuming voting intentions were the same), but they couldn't be arsed.

There were some individuals -seriously- suggesting that older people shouldn't have had a vote, and aside from reminding them that we've moved on from votes for women and apartheid, maybe if they encouraged their peers gave a sh!t, they might have achieved the goal they were after.

Whilst we don't get wiser with age, we do become better informed.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Towger on June 25, 2016, 04:07:56 pm


The answer is to leave Ireland to the Irish and start buying bricks again. (to rebuild Hadrian's wall) :-DD

You can keep Northern Ireland, it would add an extra 10% to our income tax rates to keep them in the luxury they are accustomed to.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 25, 2016, 04:09:53 pm
Quote
If you're not a lefty when you're 20, then you don't have a heart.

If you're still a lefty when you're 50, then you don't have a brain.
----Someone
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 25, 2016, 04:13:29 pm
Yesterday when Donald  held a speech at his elite golf resort  he was surrounded by nazi golf balls and Mexican flags..
This is outrageous behavior, shame on them, scots should respect Donald, he creates low vage job to poor scots, basically making them great again!
(http://gfx.aftonbladet-cdn.se/image/23065502/800/normal/e1f5e5a0ee352/Sk%C3%A4rmavbild+2016-06-25+kl.+12.46.24.jpg)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rolycat on June 25, 2016, 04:18:14 pm
Without wishing to get into a statistics battle, had the 18-34 demographic turnout been the same as the 35+ demographic, it would have been a different story (assuming voting intentions were the same), but they couldn't be arsed.

Hey, young people made their intentions perfectly clear on social media.
Maybe they were just baffled by those funny wooden sticks tied to bits of string in the polling booths  :-//
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Howardlong on June 25, 2016, 04:29:42 pm
Without wishing to get into a statistics battle, had the 18-34 demographic turnout been the same as the 35+ demographic, it would have been a different story (assuming voting intentions were the same), but they couldn't be arsed.

Hey, young people made their intentions perfectly clear on social media.
Maybe they were just baffled by those funny wooden sticks tied to bits of string in the polling booths  :-//

You may laugh, this is for real on the BBC News Website

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36584905 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36584905)

(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d123/photobucket391/8c16df697424e01dfd03e8c0ffc030ef_zps85vhxyro.jpg)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 25, 2016, 04:30:33 pm
Quote
If you're not a lefty when you're 20, then you don't have a heart.

If you're still a lefty when you're 50, then you don't have a brain

The leftists problem always trying  to fight versus fascists when they are  the more fascistest that you can find. You try to explain some stuff that they don't like and thier first answer is a insult.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on June 25, 2016, 04:34:28 pm
Here the left extremists wants to leave EU
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 25, 2016, 04:37:41 pm
And right want to remain, thats one of the reasons why the right renamed them selfs to "New Workers party" and people fell for it and voted them in! :-DD  Sweden when it as its dumbest! Frankly this is what their political friends US republicans need to do!  ^-^

(http://www.zetterling.se/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Nya-Arbetarpartiet.9004.jpg)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 25, 2016, 04:38:11 pm
Yes that's the problem with lack of integration. EU should focus on equalising living standards in all countries and well being of all member people.

Which seems a lot like mandating equal outcome with equal effort.  Everybody has the same standard of living whether they work or not.  It's not a sustainable process.   Eventually, the people doing the paying get tired of it.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Howardlong on June 25, 2016, 04:41:32 pm
Here the left extremists wants to leave EU

That is the same here, although whether I'd call them extreme or not is open to debate, Ken Livingston, ex Mayor of London, certainly wants out. Current Labour leader and the shadow chancellor, both on the left of the party, presented a facade of luke warm support for Remain, but six months ago were both anti-EU. Many believe** that their lack of engagement was a key reason for the Leave result.

Edit: ** well that, and a whole other bunch of reasons, like uneducated proles, old people, gullible ignorant tw**s (that one appeared on my FB feed, nice), "those people" (and other such prejudgmental monikers), the list is longer, but you get the message. What you don't hear much about is that there were two crap campaigns, just one was more crap than the other. A lot of people seem to have suddenly misunderstood how a referendum and a democracy works.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 25, 2016, 04:44:58 pm
Without wishing to get into a statistics battle, had the 18-34 demographic turnout been the same as the 35+ demographic, it would have been a different story (assuming voting intentions were the same), but they couldn't be arsed.

Hey, young people made their intentions perfectly clear on social media.
Maybe they were just baffled by those funny wooden sticks tied to bits of string in the polling booths  :-//


You may laugh, this is for real on the BBC News Website

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36584905 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36584905)

(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d123/photobucket391/8c16df697424e01dfd03e8c0ffc030ef_zps85vhxyro.jpg)

If you never have polled at elections, i don't see where is the grace. Now .

i surprise that on the table of the urn ,there aren't the two members of the  electoral table guarding it and that controlled  if the voters are at censo electoral and the correct electoral school

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 25, 2016, 04:49:53 pm
And right want to remain, thats one of the reasons why the right renamed them selfs to "New Workers party" and people fell for it and voted them in! :-DD  Sweden when it as its dumbest! Frankly this is what their political friends US republicans need to do!  ^-^

(http://www.zetterling.se/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Nya-Arbetarpartiet.9004.jpg)

Careful ,that come THE REDS  :scared: :scared:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: System Error Message on June 25, 2016, 05:05:51 pm
And now something entirely different!: :)
(http://s27.postimg.org/63wj7h88z/Screen_Shot_2015_08_24_at_12_32_47_AM.png)

When he governs ,he will swallow a few toads
Reminds me of Addams family from 1964, the first episode where wednesday comes home crying about the dragon getting killed.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 25, 2016, 05:11:17 pm
Careful ,that come THE REDS  :scared: :scared:

Perhaps you misinterpreted the picture, they are the "right/blue"! The red's is on the right!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 25, 2016, 05:17:59 pm
And right want to remain, thats one of the reasons why the right renamed them selfs to "New Workers party" and people fell for it and voted them in! :-DD  Sweden when it as its dumbest! Frankly this is what their political friends US republicans need to do!  ^-^

(http://www.zetterling.se/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Nya-Arbetarpartiet.9004.jpg)

Who's the woman in the thigh-high boots? Mmmmmmmm...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 25, 2016, 05:30:10 pm
Quote
Who's the woman in the thigh-high boots? Mmmmmmmm...

Quote
Ada Colau  sexual Harassment

The mayor of Barcelona reported that, during a meeting with "people of the judicial world, with much training and progressive area," two men asked him "if she had a boyfriend" and proposed sex. "With spirit and becoming sympathetic, I was told that if she had a boyfriend, he was very good and we could do things ..." he said.

http://www.huffingtonpost.es/2016/06/22/colau-acosada-reciente_n_10613258.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.es/2016/06/22/colau-acosada-reciente_n_10613258.html)

Careful, his dirty mind is provoked a abuse sexual and you will be  attack by a rabiod Feminazis gang  :-DD :-DD :-DD



 
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on June 25, 2016, 05:50:13 pm
Many believe** that their lack of engagement was a key reason for the Leave result.
Here the so called experts say is it's no surprise that people wanted to leave since local governments (all over Europe) have been blaming EU for everything bad that's happened for several years now. That's certainly true here at least. I fail to see what people think Britain will be able to achieve better on their own though, except an opportunity to "stick it to the man" perhaps. Anyway, what's done is done; interesting times ahead.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Augustus on June 25, 2016, 05:56:38 pm
It's not over, the papers not signed yet... Panic is slowly creeping in, give 'em a few days to reconsider  >:D
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 25, 2016, 06:04:13 pm
Who's the woman in the thigh-high boots? Mmmmmmmm...
A former minister in socialist government who was sacked twice.

Here is the Swedish minister of culture and democracy! You thought Trump was peculiar? ;D
http://www.government.se/government-of-sweden/ministry-of-culture/alice-bah-kuhnke/ (http://www.government.se/government-of-sweden/ministry-of-culture/alice-bah-kuhnke/)
(https://toklandet.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/alicebah22.jpg)(https://toklandet.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/alicebah00.jpg)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 25, 2016, 06:20:15 pm
Quote
It's not over, the papers not signed yet... Panic is slowly creeping in, give 'em a few days to reconsider

The papers aren't signed but the damage  has already done. They have done damage all world :Enemies and allied. Furthermore , which caused the mess have resigned.

Come on, for not going into panic.  And Junkers has said that  they choose a new primer and they sign the Brexit without delay.

I think that the British delay more of one  week for signing , the Junker will sign for them.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 25, 2016, 06:32:16 pm
Who's the woman in the thigh-high boots? Mmmmmmmm...
A former minister in socialist government who was sacked twice.

Here is the Swedish minister of culture and democracy! You thought Trump was peculiar? ;D
http://www.government.se/government-of-sweden/ministry-of-culture/alice-bah-kuhnke/ (http://www.government.se/government-of-sweden/ministry-of-culture/alice-bah-kuhnke/)
(https://toklandet.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/alicebah22.jpg)(https://toklandet.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/alicebah00.jpg)

I prefer the mulata than Communication Director from Barcelona  City Council pisser

And here there are more pics that i can't load to Forum for not causing problem to Dave

http://madre-patria.forumfrei.com/t1041-la-meona-de-colau-murciana-tenia-que-ser-la-guarra (http://madre-patria.forumfrei.com/t1041-la-meona-de-colau-murciana-tenia-que-ser-la-guarra)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 25, 2016, 06:36:07 pm
Quote
It's not over, the papers not signed yet... Panic is slowly creeping in, give 'em a few days to reconsider

The papers aren't signed but the damage  has already done. They have done damage all world :Enemies and allied. Furthermore , which caused the mess have resigned.

Come on, for not going into panic.  And Junkers has said that  they choose a new primer and they sign the Brexit without delay.

I think that the British delay more of one  week for signing , the Junker will sign for them.

Yes because we always kowtow to that drunken idiot Junker. The choice of when we sign isn't his, it's ours.

Personally, if it pisses him off, I'd put it off as long as possible. It's his like that drove us to want to leave.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: ez24 on June 25, 2016, 06:42:05 pm
Quote
I prefer the mulata than Communication Director from Barcelona  City Council pisser

What is her agenda (I cannot read Spanish) - drink more fluids ?   Or Comm Director makes a splash  :-DD     Her personal view of the EU ? (sure glad no No 2)    A little translation please

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: continuo on June 25, 2016, 06:43:58 pm
Yeah, piss off the entire EU by making them lose big money due to ongoing uncertainty. That's a good start for the UK to get really good conditions in the future negotiations  :-+
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 25, 2016, 07:52:10 pm
Yeah, piss off the entire EU by making them lose big money due to ongoing uncertainty. That's a good start for the UK to get really good conditions in the future negotiations  :-+

What is the "uncertainty"?  We are leaving the EU, that's that.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 25, 2016, 07:56:32 pm

...

Yes because we always kowtow to that drunken idiot Junker. The choice of when we sign isn't his, it's ours.

Personally, if it pisses him off, I'd put it off as long as possible. It's his like that drove us to want to leave.

I believe that this is not how international politics is done.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on June 25, 2016, 07:59:40 pm
Yeah, piss off the entire EU by making them lose big money due to ongoing uncertainty. That's a good start for the UK to get really good conditions in the future negotiations  :-+
What is the "uncertainty"?  We are leaving the EU, that's that.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/14/investing/brexit-how-much-us-stocks-fall/index.html?iid=ob_quote_footer (http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/14/investing/brexit-how-much-us-stocks-fall/index.html?iid=ob_quote_footer)

Other governments in the European Union are also unhappy that Cameron jumped ship before signing the exit documents, leaving that job to his successor. Now there will be an extended period of uncertainty (if the UK are really leaving or not) and that will hurt the economy even more.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Zero999 on June 25, 2016, 08:08:01 pm
Yeah, piss off the entire EU by making them lose big money due to ongoing uncertainty. That's a good start for the UK to get really good conditions in the future negotiations  :-+
What is the "uncertainty"?  We are leaving the EU, that's that.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/14/investing/brexit-how-much-us-stocks-fall/index.html?iid=ob_quote_footer (http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/14/investing/brexit-how-much-us-stocks-fall/index.html?iid=ob_quote_footer)

Other governments in the European Union are also unhappy that Cameron jumped ship before signing the exit documents, leaving that job to his successor. Now there will be an extended period of uncertainty (if the UK are really leaving or not) and that will hurt the economy even more.
I can see Cameron's point of view: he was part of the campaign to remain in Europe, so he doesn't feel as though he should guide the UK through exiting the EU.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 25, 2016, 08:13:57 pm
Wouldn't it have been correcter to put Stay in his election campaign then?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 25, 2016, 08:16:29 pm

...

Yes because we always kowtow to that drunken idiot Junker. The choice of when we sign isn't his, it's ours.

Personally, if it pisses him off, I'd put it off as long as possible. It's his like that drove us to want to leave.

I believe that this is not how international politics is done.

Could be why I never went into international politics :). I'd also be tempted to somewhat overdo the traditional slap in the face greeting.

Although, I've travelled around Europe quite a bit and no-one has ever slapped me in the face as a greeting, shaking hands and kissing seem to be the norm. Maybe it's only arrogant, drunken idiots who do it?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 25, 2016, 08:17:51 pm
The slap in the face is unknown to me . I'll try to introduce it at work Monday morning :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 25, 2016, 08:18:57 pm
The slap in the face is unknown to me . I'll try to introduce it at work Monday morning :)
Pictures or it didn't happen.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Zero999 on June 25, 2016, 08:19:26 pm
Wouldn't it have been correcter to put Stay in his election campaign then?
He wanted to steal the UKIP voters so a referendum on leaving the EU seemed like a good idea at the time and he didn't believe the result would be to leave.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 25, 2016, 08:20:51 pm
Yeah, piss off the entire EU by making them lose big money due to ongoing uncertainty. That's a good start for the UK to get really good conditions in the future negotiations  :-+

What is the "uncertainty"?  We are leaving the EU, that's that.

I seem that the British hadn't understood of as work the world.

All the treateds ot trade that have Uk are with EU, when you had decided to exit EU all the trateds are nulls and have to negociate since 0, not only with EU else  with at all world(Usa,Canada, China).

At the moment that you decide to exit the investments of the corporations that related with UK are stopped ,not only with EU else  with at all world.

 And the corporation can't planning thier operations and they are losing very much money.

Because all the world want that the british go to sign and begin to negociate the soon possible. Now  ,the british follow to do the silly ,that they will go to descapitale the  UK as Spain(2010 , 2011,2012 )and
Greece(2009,2012,2015)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on June 25, 2016, 08:23:06 pm
The slap in the face is unknown to me . I'll try to introduce it at work Monday morning :)
Pictures or it didn't happen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPgiI46FCDU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPgiI46FCDU)

it's the normal way to great people in the rest of europe  ;)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: donotdespisethesnake on June 25, 2016, 08:23:25 pm
Yeah, piss off the entire EU by making them lose big money due to ongoing uncertainty. That's a good start for the UK to get really good conditions in the future negotiations  :-+

The EU have repeatedly threatened the UK with "punitive measures" if we democratically decided to leave - and consistently refused to engage in real reform.

So, yeah, let's piss off the EU as much as possible.  :-DD

There's several other EU states that might follow the UK example - so the EU would do better to listen rather than threaten.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 25, 2016, 08:27:43 pm
Yeah, piss off the entire EU by making them lose big money due to ongoing uncertainty. That's a good start for the UK to get really good conditions in the future negotiations  :-+
What is the "uncertainty"?  We are leaving the EU, that's that.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/14/investing/brexit-how-much-us-stocks-fall/index.html?iid=ob_quote_footer (http://money.cnn.com/2016/06/14/investing/brexit-how-much-us-stocks-fall/index.html?iid=ob_quote_footer)

Other governments in the European Union are also unhappy that Cameron jumped ship before signing the exit documents, leaving that job to his successor. Now there will be an extended period of uncertainty (if the UK are really leaving or not) and that will hurt the economy even more.
I can see Cameron's point of view: he was part of the campaign to remain in Europe, so he doesn't feel as though he should guide the UK through exiting the EU.
Cameron resigned to avoid a vote of no confidence which a) he won't want as the last thing on his record as prime minister and b) would not have been good for stability. He also won't want actually involving article 50 on his record either given that he is pretty pro Europe.

But the very fact that Europe is so keen for us to get on with it should give us cause to pause. We should get on with it, certainly, but we should concentrate on the best solution for the UK and this looks like a bargaining chip we should not squander. Especially as it is clear no one is keen on making it easy for us.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 25, 2016, 08:28:26 pm
All the treateds ot trade that have Uk are with EU, when you had decided to exit EU all the trateds are nulls and have to negociate since 0, not only with EU else  with at all world(Usa,Canada, China).

Enjoy TTIP when the EU hands over your sovereignty to US corporations.

The EU has no deal with China   :palm:

I already have all the maple syrup I can eat :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on June 25, 2016, 08:31:43 pm
So, yeah, let's piss off the EU as much as possible.  :-DD
Dude! Way to stick it to the man! :clap:
:palm:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: DimitriP on June 25, 2016, 08:39:53 pm
Here is the EU in slow motion.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLkhMElKD8A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLkhMElKD8A)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 25, 2016, 08:42:10 pm
What surprises me is that the British leadership is now starting to build a power transition and action plan.
You'd expect when you propose such a big change, there would be a roadmap ready for both outcomes.
The leaders of both camps are from the very same political party. Haven't they talked things trough?

They'd better start googling now how the process works.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 25, 2016, 08:46:42 pm
What surprises me is that the British leadership is now starting to build a power transition and action plan.
You'd expect when you propose such a big change, there would be a roadmap ready for both outcomes.
The leaders of both camps are from the very same political party. Haven't they talked things trough?

They'd better start googling now how the process works.
It is increasingly obvious that no one actually expected that the vote would be to leave the EU, it's flying by the seat of their pants time.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 25, 2016, 08:47:17 pm

Enjoy TTIP when the EU hands over your sovereignty to US corporations.


Yip.  And there looks like there's going to be nothing the European people nor even EU elected politicians can do to stop it (https://medium.com/@WhiteWednesday/the-ttip-issue-just-went-red-in-the-eu-referendum-b7932593f0e8#.xvsqowugo).  THAT is the arrogant autocratic shit from which we have voted to escape.


Quote
I do not take my mandate from the European people.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 25, 2016, 08:59:23 pm
Yeah, piss off the entire EU by making them lose big money due to ongoing uncertainty. That's a good start for the UK to get really good conditions in the future negotiations  :-+

What is the "uncertainty"?  We are leaving the EU, that's that.
Uncertainty is that Cameron and Boris Johnson too, told they are not in hurry to exit at all. Maybe will start to think about it "sometime". And that is f....g prickery in it's nature. If you decided you exit, then exit, don't put all of the EU in uncertain position for a decade. Otherwise it like standing in the door, refusing going out and closing it finally, but instead pissing in the room for owner's appreciation.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 25, 2016, 09:06:40 pm
Yeah, piss off the entire EU by making them lose big money due to ongoing uncertainty. That's a good start for the UK to get really good conditions in the future negotiations  :-+

What is the "uncertainty"?  We are leaving the EU, that's that.
Uncertainty is that Cameron and Boris Johnson too, told they are not in hurry to exit at all. Maybe will start to think about it "sometime". And that is f....g prickery in it's nature. If you decided you exit, then exit, don't put all of the EU in uncertain position for a decade. Otherwise it like standing in the door, refusing going out and closing it finally, but instead pissing in the room for owner's appreciation.

My understanding is that making all the arrangements is going to be a very long and complicated process. Perhaps taking many, many years to complete.
Given all the DIFFICULT negotiations, I'm not going to be at all surprised at it taking a long time.

I also understand that (quietly) behind closed doors, the negotiations, discussions and details are already taking place (soon).
E.g. There are various meetings, both in the UK and EU, discussing what is going on, and planned to happen.

Since we are the first BIG EU exiting country (if I understand things correctly, but there was the odd, small thing here and there before, ages ago), it will probably take even longer.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 25, 2016, 09:06:52 pm
We 'll know on day one of this week's EU summit when the article50 will be announced.
Talks will also commence immediately.

I think that the background diplomatic negotiations are already full speed at this very moment.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: wraper on June 25, 2016, 09:11:26 pm
Quote
The only real quantifiable detail in the article is a provision that gives negotiators two years from the date of article 50 notification to conclude new arrangements. Failure to do so results in the exiting state falling out of the EU with no new provisions in place, unless every one of the remaining EU states agrees to extend the negotiations.

No country has ever invoked article 50 – yet.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 25, 2016, 09:12:35 pm
It's odd that the founding members of the EU want to expedite the UK's exit while at the same time addressing the issues that caused it.  Like once the UK is gone, they'll fix things.  It's almost like they intended to drive the UK out before they made changes.

This is going to be a challenging time.  I wonder what Parliament is going to do about the petition for a 'do-over' referendum?  Are they going to take it up?  Are they just going to talk about it on Tuesday and leave it lie?  Should there be a 'do-over'?  How many 'do-overs' are allowed under UK law?  Is there a EU law that regulates 'do-overs'?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: TimFox on June 25, 2016, 09:13:59 pm
Some of the discussion about election demographics (younger voters want to remain, older voters want to leave) and "voter remorse" that have appeared on this side of the ocean remind me of the opinion I have about painting brickwork.
It's like killing your spouse:
1.  It's not really a good idea.
2.  Before you do, make sure you really want to do it, since you can't reverse the process.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 25, 2016, 09:14:53 pm
It's odd that the founding members of the EU want to expedite the UK's exit while at the same time addressing the issues that caused it.  Like once the UK is gone, they'll fix things.  It's almost like they intended to drive the UK out before they made changes.

This is going to be a challenging time.  I wonder what Parliament is going to do about the petition for a 'do-over' referendum?  Are they going to take it up?  Are they just going to talk about it on Tuesday and leave it lie?  Should there be a 'do-over'?  How many 'do-overs' are allowed under UK law?  Is there a EU law that regulates 'do-overs'?

Unless there is a REALLY BIG change in circumstances, there will almost certainly be NO repeat of the referendum, in the next few years.

The votes happened officially, so that's it!
Done and dusted.

EDIT:
If the EU try and fix things AFTER we have left. It is probably because they are worried that other EU countries may also hold referendums, with similar results. Resulting in many exiting EU countries, and perhaps the end of the existing EU organisation.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 25, 2016, 09:15:21 pm
It's odd that the founding members of the EU want to expedite the UK's exit while at the same time addressing the issues that caused it.  Like once the UK is gone, they'll fix things.  It's almost like they intended to drive the UK out before they made changes.



If you follow that logic, you could also say that UK intentionally tried to weaken the EU for years while they where in, because they knew they were going to leave.
Neither of the two happened.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 25, 2016, 09:17:54 pm
It's odd that the founding members of the EU want to expedite the UK's exit while at the same time addressing the issues that caused it.  Like once the UK is gone, they'll fix things.  It's almost like they intended to drive the UK out before they made changes.

This is going to be a challenging time.  I wonder what Parliament is going to do about the petition for a 'do-over' referendum?  Are they going to take it up?  Are they just going to talk about it on Tuesday and leave it lie?  Should there be a 'do-over'?  How many 'do-overs' are allowed under UK law?  Is there a EU law that regulates 'do-overs'?

Unless there is a REALLY BIG change in circumstances, there will almost certainly be NO repeat of the referendum.

The votes happened officially, so that's it!
Done and dusted.

I also think this. Neither the UK citizens nor the EU citizens would accept that the outcome would be ignored or challenged.

In the UK, I'd expect big protests if the governement wouldn't decide for leave now.

In EU, I'd expect them to refuse if the UK wants to stay.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 25, 2016, 09:20:05 pm
It's odd that the founding members of the EU want to expedite the UK's exit while at the same time addressing the issues that caused it.  Like once the UK is gone, they'll fix things.  It's almost like they intended to drive the UK out before they made changes.



If you follow that logic, you could also say that UK intentionally tried to weaken the EU for years while they where in, because they knew they were going to leave.
Neither of the two happened.

I don't think that 'free movement' was ever a best seller with the UK.  Clearly they wanted to keep control of their currency.  It's like having your feet on opposite sides of a stream.  You're going to get wet!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 25, 2016, 09:23:59 pm
...  It's like having your feet on opposite sides of a stream.  ...
of the channel, you mean :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on June 25, 2016, 09:24:23 pm
It's odd that the founding members of the EU want to expedite the UK's exit
Everyone just want to dispel any uncertainty in order to limit the damage to the economy, so things stabilize as quickly as possible. It's common sense that the UK helps with this since it's also in their best interest.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on June 25, 2016, 09:26:10 pm
It's odd that the founding members of the EU want to expedite the UK's exit while at the same time addressing the issues that caused it.  Like once the UK is gone, they'll fix things.  It's almost like they intended to drive the UK out before they made changes.

This is going to be a challenging time.  I wonder what Parliament is going to do about the petition for a 'do-over' referendum?  Are they going to take it up?  Are they just going to talk about it on Tuesday and leave it lie?  Should there be a 'do-over'?  How many 'do-overs' are allowed under UK law?  Is there a EU law that regulates 'do-overs'?

Unless there is a REALLY BIG change in circumstances, there will almost certainly be NO repeat of the referendum.

The votes happened officially, so that's it!
Done and dusted.

I also think this. Neither the UK citizens nor the EU citizens would accept that the outcome would be ignored or challenged.

In the UK, I'd expect big protests if the governement wouldn't decide for leave now.

In EU, I'd expect them to refuse if the UK wants to stay.
Yes, I believe so as well.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Augustus on June 25, 2016, 09:28:51 pm
But the very fact that Europe is so keen for us to get on with it should give us cause to pause. We should get on with it, certainly, but we should concentrate on the best solution for the UK and this looks like a bargaining chip we should not squander. Especially as it is clear no one is keen on making it easy for us.

Sorry Mr. Grumpydoc, it was the wish of the UK people to leave, the EU wanted you to stay. Now, *poof*, congratulations, your wish was granted. Now, please, leave us asap to minimize any hassle on either side. There is already a lot of money burned by your action, not only in the EU but all around the world. Any further delay wont make you any friends.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on June 25, 2016, 09:33:10 pm

Enjoy TTIP when the EU hands over your sovereignty to US corporations.


Yip.  And there looks like there's going to be nothing the European people nor even EU elected politicians can do to stop it (https://medium.com/@WhiteWednesday/the-ttip-issue-just-went-red-in-the-eu-referendum-b7932593f0e8#.xvsqowugo).  THAT is the arrogant autocratic shit from which we have voted to escape.


Quote
I do not take my mandate from the European people.


Like our Brexit voters you do not seem to realise that TTIP is exactly what the majority of EU state government, most especially the UK government, want.   The reason the EU appears anti-democratic is because it is doing exactly what national governments want, and national governments find it convenient to use the EU as an alibi for doing the neo-liberals'  bidding.  Either because they think it is a good idea or simply for bribes.  In this country most government ministers and top civil servants get hugely overpaid 'consultancy' jobs with big corporations after they leave office.  The EU doesn't 'dictate' anything (except perhaps to small or poor countries), it does exactly what the big states want it to do. 
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Augustus on June 25, 2016, 09:33:24 pm
There's several other EU states that might follow the UK example - so the EU would do better to listen rather than threaten.

Well, that's understandable from your side of view. Hoping that others follow to make your own move look less foolish. It certainly is a possibility. But I wouldn't hold my breath. The divorce will be painful for the UK, for all others to see. Best of luck.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 25, 2016, 09:33:32 pm
The government should be ready anyways. It's not that this vote was an unscheduled event.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 25, 2016, 09:42:28 pm
But the very fact that Europe is so keen for us to get on with it should give us cause to pause. We should get on with it, certainly, but we should concentrate on the best solution for the UK and this looks like a bargaining chip we should not squander. Especially as it is clear no one is keen on making it easy for us.

Sorry Mr. Grumpydoc, it was the wish of the UK people to leave, the EU wanted you to stay. Now, *poof*, congratulations, your wish was granted. Now, please, leave us asap to minimize any hassle on either side. There is already a lot of money burned by your action, not only in the EU but all around the world. Any further delay wont make you any friends.

Lets see, it's been just over a day since the result was announced.

The arrogant drunken idiot in charge of the EU has gotten all huffy.

If the EU was democratic then this situation wouldn't have arisen. It only has itself to blame.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 25, 2016, 09:44:16 pm

Enjoy TTIP when the EU hands over your sovereignty to US corporations.


Yip.  And there looks like there's going to be nothing the European people nor even EU elected politicians can do to stop it (https://medium.com/@WhiteWednesday/the-ttip-issue-just-went-red-in-the-eu-referendum-b7932593f0e8#.xvsqowugo).  THAT is the arrogant autocratic shit from which we have voted to escape.


Quote
I do not take my mandate from the European people.


Like our Brexit voters you do not seem to realise that TTIP is exactly what the majority of EU state government, most especially the UK government, want.   The reason the EU appears anti-democratic is because it is doing exactly what national governments want, and national governments find it convenient to use the EU as an alibi for doing the neo-liberals'  bidding.  Either because they think it is a good idea or simply for bribes.  In this country most government ministers and top civil servants get hugely overpaid 'consultancy' jobs with big corporations after they leave office.  The EU doesn't 'dictate' anything (except perhaps to small or poor countries), it does exactly what the big states want it to do.

And now they can't hide behind the EU.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on June 25, 2016, 10:10:28 pm

Enjoy TTIP when the EU hands over your sovereignty to US corporations.


Yip.  And there looks like there's going to be nothing the European people nor even EU elected politicians can do to stop it (https://medium.com/@WhiteWednesday/the-ttip-issue-just-went-red-in-the-eu-referendum-b7932593f0e8#.xvsqowugo).  THAT is the arrogant autocratic shit from which we have voted to escape.


Quote
I do not take my mandate from the European people.


Like our Brexit voters you do not seem to realise that TTIP is exactly what the majority of EU state government, most especially the UK government, want.   The reason the EU appears anti-democratic is because it is doing exactly what national governments want, and national governments find it convenient to use the EU as an alibi for doing the neo-liberals'  bidding.  Either because they think it is a good idea or simply for bribes.  In this country most government ministers and top civil servants get hugely overpaid 'consultancy' jobs with big corporations after they leave office.  The EU doesn't 'dictate' anything (except perhaps to small or poor countries), it does exactly what the big states want it to do.

And now they can't hide behind the EU.
Considering the Anglo-American “special relationship” I'm sure Britain will have their very own TTIP (with ISDS intact) expedited in no time, now that no pesky MEPs are in the way insisting on niceties like democratic and transparent processes... :-+
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Macbeth on June 25, 2016, 10:23:54 pm

Enjoy TTIP when the EU hands over your sovereignty to US corporations.


Yip.  And there looks like there's going to be nothing the European people nor even EU elected politicians can do to stop it (https://medium.com/@WhiteWednesday/the-ttip-issue-just-went-red-in-the-eu-referendum-b7932593f0e8#.xvsqowugo).  THAT is the arrogant autocratic shit from which we have voted to escape.


Quote
I do not take my mandate from the European people.


Like our Brexit voters you do not seem to realise that TTIP is exactly what the majority of EU state government, most especially the UK government, want.   The reason the EU appears anti-democratic is because it is doing exactly what national governments want, and national governments find it convenient to use the EU as an alibi for doing the neo-liberals'  bidding.  Either because they think it is a good idea or simply for bribes.  In this country most government ministers and top civil servants get hugely overpaid 'consultancy' jobs with big corporations after they leave office.  The EU doesn't 'dictate' anything (except perhaps to small or poor countries), it does exactly what the big states want it to do.

And now they can't hide behind the EU.
Considering the Anglo-American “special relationship” I'm sure Britain will have their very own TTIP (with ISDS intact) expedited in no time, now that no pesky MEPs are in the way insisting on niceties like democratic and transparent processes... :-+

Nah. Obama explicitly stated that if the UK leaves then all our trade deals will be at the back of the queue. So we will see what happens after the EU drunker Juncker manages to rattle off a scrawled signature signing away the rest of Europe to the globalist corporations despite all your concerned citizens and MEPs being totally against TTIP.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 25, 2016, 10:30:34 pm
Because Cameron explicitly asked the EU to keep silent. There was the fear that anything from outside the UK would be considered to be foreign intrusion and counterproductive to the stay camp.

Obama's "you'll be at the back of the queue, peasants" put down, that was a million Leave votes right there.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 25, 2016, 10:32:45 pm
It was Dave looking smug as Obama threatened us that got us the votes.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Wilksey on June 25, 2016, 10:47:16 pm
Obama has apparently backed down and said we are still friends with our "special relationship" still going on, I think all of the companies threatening to leave the UK etc have backed down apparently, we have allegedly gotten trade offers from Russia and China, and the Germans have said "no worries" to us still trading, several other countries apparently want to leave the EU.

All it means is that we might have to fill in another form if we want to trade with another country or travel / live there, people from the UK go and live in Aus and US, no difference really!

Cameron is a royal C*nt and tried to bully and scare people into remaining, but his plan backfired, apart from Gibraltar, Scotland, Ireland and London, most if not all of the other places voted majority leave.

There are benefits in staying and benefits in leaving, yes it might not work out for the UK, or it might, but it's like anything, it's a risk, but a risk worth taking I think.

People in other European counties are as happy to see us go as we are of going, others are sad to see us go, whilst some are glad we have gone but because it gives them hope that one day they will be able to leave also, so more of a "well done" than "good riddance".

We are still in Europe, just no longer having to take orders and dictation from a bunch of jumped up power tripping nob heads.

The main reason I voted leave was apart from the smugness of Cameron thinking he had swayed everybody into remaining, was the fact that we now have control over what we want to do with regards to immigration and benefits, our government wanted to make it a rule that you had to be here 4 years before claiming benefits (for doing sod all by the way) but EU ruling said no, but the main reason was if we were to remain the NHS would cease to exist, which is a service we all rely on!

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on June 25, 2016, 10:52:02 pm
Let me say first say that it somewhat makes me said to see the Brits leave. I always loved music from the UK and I still feel much closer to British than than to American culture. And while I always said that I'd rather see them leave than stay without compassion or at least a clear majority, I kinda assumed (and a part of me hoped)  they would finally decide to stay. Not because the EU needs the UK, not because the EU will fall apart without the UK but because the UK was always a part of Europe and should belong to the EU.

Then again, honestly, the UK never really became a true member of the EU anyway. They were lured to join with lots of concessions and rebates and in the end only agreed since they were convinced at some point that they would have a financial benefit from being a member. I feel they never really understood or wholeheartedly supported the European idea. And that idea is not mainly about financial interests. Still I found it somewhat shocking to learn that even the "stay" supporters would mainly reason about financial benefits or losses but not at all about anything above merely fiscal arguments. So if less than half of UK voters were willing to stay for the wrong reasons, it makes it much easier to let them go.
Talking of wrong reasons: while I also feel a lot of sympathy for the Scots and really believe that they understand the non-fiscal part of the European idea much better than the English, I somewhat fear that at least some of them voted more against England than for the EU.

It's kinda sad and disturbing to see that so many Brits live in a delusion of past glory and actually seem to believe that the UK would become "strong" again whatever this is supposed to mean. Hell, some people even uttered crap about ruling the sea. Jesus Christ, the times of Great Britain ruling over other countries are over and the Commonwealth is reduced to symbolism and playing cricket. The past is past and everybody should look in the future instead of a reliving dreams of a time that is long gone, will not come back and was not so glorious anyway.
I just feel sorry for the young Brits who will most probably face a grimmer future in whatever remains of the (formerly) United Kingdom in a few years.
And yeah, the people in Gibraltar are pretty much screwed as well.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on June 25, 2016, 11:09:10 pm
Obama basically said the US cares more about a trade agreement with all of EU than a single country since the EU-market is so much bigger, which makes sense. Why they (Obama and Cameron) supposedly believed that saying that would make more people vote for remain I'm not sure. :-\

Of course everyone are sad that the UK is leaving, it will hurt every other country in the EU trading with the UK and make all of EU weaker with less diversity. It will also make the UK much weaker and insignificant. Maybe in the future Europeans will go there for vacation and the UK can survive on tourism? Brexit only makes Putin and Trump happy because it makes Europe weaker.

we have allegedly gotten trade offers from Russia

EDIT: for the record, I wish the EU could be better friends with Russia as well, every one benefits from peace and better relations.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Artlav on June 25, 2016, 11:18:49 pm
So, have someone already dropped the pun that the EU now have 1 GB of free space?
...anyone?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 25, 2016, 11:23:40 pm
Of course everyone are sad that the UK is leaving, it will hurt every other country in the EU trading with the UK and make all of EU weaker with less diversity. It will also make the UK much weaker and insignificant. Maybe in the future Europeans will go there for vacation and the UK can survive on tourism? Brexit only makes Putin and Trump happy because it makes Europe weaker.
I don't think so. Which country will get the first EU-lite subscription? Yes: Ukraine!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 25, 2016, 11:30:54 pm
Let me say first say that it somewhat makes me said to see the Brits leave. I always loved music from the UK and I still feel much closer to British than than to American culture. And while I always said that I'd rather see them leave than stay without compassion or at least a clear majority, I kinda assumed (and a part of me hoped)  they would finally decide to stay. Not because the EU needs the UK, not because the EU will fall apart without the UK but because the UK was always a part of Europe and should belong to the EU.

Then again, honestly, the UK never really became a true member of the EU anyway. They were lured to join with lots of concessions and rebates and in the end only agreed since they were convinced at some point that they would have a financial benefit from being a member. I feel they never really understood or wholeheartedly supported the European idea. And that idea is not mainly about financial interests. Still I found it somewhat shocking to learn that even the "stay" supporters would mainly reason about financial benefits or losses but not at all about anything above merely fiscal arguments. So if less than half of UK voters were willing to stay for the wrong reasons, it makes it much easier to let them go.
Talking of wrong reasons: while I also feel a lot of sympathy for the Scots and really believe that they understand the non-fiscal part of the European idea much better than the English, I somewhat fear that at least some of them voted more against England than for the EU.

It's kinda sad and disturbing to see that so many Brits live in a delusion of past glory and actually seem to believe that the UK would become "strong" again whatever this is supposed to mean. Hell, some people even uttered crap about ruling the sea. Jesus Christ, the times of Great Britain ruling over other countries are over and the Commonwealth is reduced to symbolism and playing cricket. The past is past and everybody should look in the future instead of a reliving dreams of a time that is long gone, will not come back and was not so glorious anyway.
I just feel sorry for the young Brits who will most probably face a grimmer future in whatever remains of the (formerly) United Kingdom in a few years.
And yeah, the people in Gibraltar are pretty much screwed as well.

We are part of Europe, but we don't belong in the EU. It is the EU we have rejected, not the ordinary people of Europe.

The EU is fundamentally opposite to us culturally. As a German, I don't expect you to understand. I know a lot of Germans, mostly we get on, and we can have a drink and a laugh, but none actually understand English culture, just as I don't understand some of the things I've come across in Germany ('being the father' - culturally acceptable bullying from my point of view), we have very different history and geography and have made our way to where we are now separately.

My kids aren't facing a grimmer future now we've released ourselves from the EU. There may be some temporary pain, but we'll get past it to hopefully a brighter future where we aren't tied to the failing EU experiment.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 25, 2016, 11:41:51 pm
So, have someone already dropped the pun that the EU now have 1 GB of free space?
...anyone?

The UK gained 1 TB of free space, when Tony Blair left.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 25, 2016, 11:52:25 pm
The EU is fundamentally opposite to us culturally. As a German, I don't expect you to understand. I know a lot of Germans, mostly we get on, and we can have a drink and a laugh, but none actually understand English culture, just as I don't understand some of the things I've come across in Germany ('being the father' - culturally acceptable bullying from my point of view), we have very different history and geography and have made our way to where we are now separately.
I hate to break it to you but every country in the EU is culturally very different compared to another. Even in the smaller countries you'll find regional differences in culture.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 25, 2016, 11:55:23 pm
Otherwise it like standing in the door, refusing going out and closing it finally, but instead pissing in the room for owner's appreciation.

Have you met my cat?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 25, 2016, 11:59:35 pm
The EU is fundamentally opposite to us culturally. As a German, I don't expect you to understand. I know a lot of Germans, mostly we get on, and we can have a drink and a laugh, but none actually understand English culture, just as I don't understand some of the things I've come across in Germany ('being the father' - culturally acceptable bullying from my point of view), we have very different history and geography and have made our way to where we are now separately.
I hate to break it to you but every country in the EU is culturally very different compared to another. Even in the smaller countries you'll find regional differences in culture.
And there was me thinking that everyone was exactly the same. Thank you for being so direct.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: ez24 on June 26, 2016, 12:03:49 am
It was Dave looking smug as Obama threatened us that got us the votes.

I just heard on PBS someone saying that Obama made up his mind to vote to leave.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 26, 2016, 12:19:00 am


Nah. Obama explicitly stated that if the UK leaves then all our trade deals will be at the back of the queue.

Obama says many things. The UK is our primary ally.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 26, 2016, 12:26:41 am
Then again, honestly, the UK never really became a true member of the EU anyway.

Well, yes and no,

The idea of a group of Nations we could trade with on an equal basis, we wanted that.

But Germany's idea of a European superstate, that was entirely alien to us (but very much in line with German thinking)
All it created was nationalism throughout Europe, which then led to Brexit.

The UK didn't leave the EU for fun, we were forced out by Junkers' federal power trip and his intransigent attitude to everything, and Merkel clinched the issue by scaring the crap out of Europe by importing millions of the great unwashed, and then demanding the rest of Europe sort out her mess  :palm:

Oddly enough Cameron knew that the drunkard Junkers would ruin Europe years ago and opposed his appointment. A pity he wasn't listened to.

German politicians created Brexit, nobody else.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 26, 2016, 12:29:21 am
I think you're giving the public too much credit. It seems people didn't know what they were voting for or that their vote even counted if you go by some of the videos of interviewers talking to randomers on the street. It's nuts to think the people voting for Big Brother or I'm A Celebrity are the ones deciding on such an important matter.  :wtf:

This is a common trope by elitist would-be-fascist dictators... that the public is too stupid to be entrusted with their own freedom and need to be ruled by their intellectual superiors.

There's nothing to indicate that a higher education level or even a higher IQ makes one better suited for geopolitical decision making.  Perhaps even the opposite as a lot of the elitist illuminati are insulted from the realities of life for much of the country and just presume everyone else should like or be like them, when such is impossible.

Of course people knew what they were voting for.  The news media is trumping up stories like "searches for 'what is the EU' skyrocket" to let the aforementioned wanna-be fasicsts feel a sense of satisfaction and righteousness about their desire to implement dictatorial tyranny.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 26, 2016, 12:31:45 am
The UK is the US's only credible ally in the region.  I would imagine we will get our trade deals in order pretty quick.  The framework is already complete and there really isn't going to be much difference between trading with the UK and trading with the EU from our point of view.  I just don't see trade as being such a big deal to get settled.  We buy/sell stuff and the UK buys/sells stuff.  Pretty straightforward!
What, we're going to halt the containers at the border while we talk for 2 years?  Hardly!

The US needs the UK - preferably the entire UK...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 26, 2016, 12:38:24 am
Just look at the greek situation. It is really sad, that such a relativ insignificant dept ruins a country because EU is not integrated enough to just pay it of and institute changes which solve the underlying problems in a way that's beneficial for the greek people.

Their debt was not insignificant, and the problem was not just the debt, but how it came to exist and what was being done (or even could be done) to prevent it blowing up again.

The idea that "we need more control over sovereign nations so we can dictate to them how to live" is scary, frankly.  Of course, it's always done under the guise of "we're just doing what's best for you - because you don't know yourselves what is best". 

If people really think this way, the EU needs to end immediately before some pretty horrific things become justified in the name of "helping others who don't know how to best help themselves".

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 26, 2016, 12:46:22 am
You guys don't really have much trade with the UK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_the_United_States

That looks big/significant. Three times what it is with Australia!
Quite a lot more than France.

Were you looking in the right column ? (the rightmost one, seems to be the wrong one).
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 26, 2016, 12:51:29 am

  It's a form of 'direct democracy' and it has a big flaw, often called the tyranny of the majority. My experience with it here in California is that any special interest group(s) just need to raise enough money to qualify some referendum onto the State Ballot and wham, some very silly or very expensive or something with too much unintended consequences gets passed onto a generally uninterested voting (and non-voting) population. I believe in representative democracy, and mostly fear direct democracy.

Tyranny of the majority applies to things which are wrong from a human or moral perspective but which would be easily passed by a majority, with the net results of being tyrannical to the victims of the law.  Things like slavery (easy to vote for unless you're the slave), or voting a 100% tax on the wealthiest and such.

Tyranny of the majority does not apply to issues which affect everyone relatively equally and for which everyone gets a say in the outcome. 

Representative democracy on an issue such as this is just a euphimism for the elites wanting a way to dictate to the plebs how they will live because they know better what is in their interests than the subjects of the law know themselves.  That is tyranny.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 26, 2016, 01:06:52 am
Representative democracy on an issue such as this is just a euphimism for the elites wanting a way to dictate to the plebs how they will live because they know better what is in their interests than the subjects of the law know themselves.  That is tyranny.

That's pretty much what the new middle class Labour party has been doing for years, Blair and Miliband talking down to the smelly plebs, insisting that diversity was good for them because only they could see the benefits of the bigger picture.

It was inconceivable to the London elite that the working class would actually care about the destruction of their own communities.

This group has been manipulated into staying silent by a liberal media - until they were handed a vote that is. Then it's Et tu, Brute.


Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: retrolefty on June 26, 2016, 02:15:49 am
Otherwise it like standing in the door, refusing going out and closing it finally, but instead pissing in the room for owner's appreciation.

Have you met my cat?

 Best post yet on this subject.  :-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 26, 2016, 02:33:20 am
Or as George Orwell once said:

I had seen little evidence that the USSR/US/EU (etc) was progressing towards anything that one could truly call democracy. On the contrary, I was struck by clear signs of its transformation into a hierarchical society, in which the rulers have no more reason to give up their power than any other ruling class.

So the problem on the planet is not the elite it's those who "VOTE".
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 26, 2016, 03:07:33 am
Or as George Orwell once said:

I had seen little evidence that the USSR/US/EU (etc) was progressing towards anything that one could truly call democracy. On the contrary, I was struck by clear signs of its transformation into a hierarchical society, in which the rulers have no more reason to give up their power than any other ruling class.

You are making things up. Orwell talked about the USSR and Socialism.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: VK3DRB on June 26, 2016, 03:24:04 am
United they stand, divided they fall.

I wonder if the majority of poms will be saying "It wasn't me." Just like most Aussies say they didn't vote for Rudd. Just like the anti-Vietnam war protesters from the early 70's in the US and Australia are nowhere to be found. Democracy is a failure in some countries when most of the population believe :bullshit: that is fed to them by prostitute politicians whose election campaigns are funded by major corporations, super wealthy and by power lobby groups like the NRA.

I think the poms made a big, BIG mistake. Time will tell.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: mtdoc on June 26, 2016, 03:29:12 am
You are making things up. Orwell talked about the USSR and Socialism.

Orwell's work directed it's criticism at totalitarianism in all its forms.

He was a strong advocate for and supporter of democratic socialism.

1984 was primarily a critique of society kept under control by fear with a state of constant surveillance and constant state of war - not unlike what we currently have in the west.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 26, 2016, 03:37:17 am
You are making things up. Orwell talked about the USSR and Socialism.

Orwell's work directed it's criticism at totalitarianism in all its forms.

He was a strong advocate for and supporter of democratic socialism.

1984 was primarily a critique of society kept under control by fear with a state of constant surveillance and constant state of war - not unlike what we currently have in the west.

Let Orwel speak for himself. Here is the original. Compare with MT's post.

Quote
Since 1930 I had seen little evidence that the USSR was progressing towards anything that one could truly call Socialism. On the contrary, I was struck by clear signs of its transformation into a hierarchical society, in which the rulers have no more reason to give up their power than any other ruling class
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: mtdoc on June 26, 2016, 03:44:17 am

Quote
Since 1930 I had seen little evidence that the USSR was progressing towards anything that one could truly call Socialism. On the contrary, I was struck by clear signs of its transformation into a hierarchical society, in which the rulers have no more reason to give up their power than any other ruling class

Yes. As I said:  Orwell was a supporter of democratic socialism - which of course the USSR was not an example of.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 26, 2016, 03:56:18 am

Quote
Since 1930 I had seen little evidence that the USSR was progressing towards anything that one could truly call Socialism. On the contrary, I was struck by clear signs of its transformation into a hierarchical society, in which the rulers have no more reason to give up their power than any other ruling class

Yes. As I said:  Orwell was a supporter of democratic socialism - which of course the USSR was not an example of.

He also liked tea without sugar.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 26, 2016, 04:23:40 am
United they stand, divided they fall.

I wonder if the majority of poms will be saying "It wasn't me." Just like most Aussies say they didn't vote for Rudd. Just like the anti-Vietnam war protesters from the early 70's in the US and Australia are nowhere to be found. Democracy is a failure in some countries when most of the population believe :bullshit: that is fed to them by prostitute politicians whose election campaigns are funded by major corporations, super wealthy and by power lobby groups like the NRA.

I think the poms made a big, BIG mistake. Time will tell.

The NRA isn't the big bad wolf it's portrayed to be.  Out of 100 million gun owners in the US, just about 5 million belong to the NRA.  If the others would sign up, the NRA could be a pretty big voting block.   But they won't...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: CatalinaWOW on June 26, 2016, 04:39:17 am
I used to be an NRA member.  I left because Wayne LaPierre is a nutcase.  I couldn't support the way the organization was run.  Black helicopters and other horse manure.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: mtdoc on June 26, 2016, 04:51:07 am
I believe the Brexit vote result has far broader implications than I've seen discussed here. The neoliberal economic polices of the political class (from both the left and the right) and their corporate backers have been gutting the working and middle class for the past 30 years primarily by moving manufacturing to low wage and environmental-regulation-free developing countries. 

The coordinated actions of the central bankers have served those same interests by punishing savers - encouraging borrowing and consumption of cheap consumer goods - all to the benefit of the financiers and trans-global corporate profits.  Distract the masses with cheap gadgets and entertainment. Bread and circuses.

The EU and EMU have been a central front in this program.  While their formation had good intent - a peaceful and united Europe to prevent a replay of the horrors of the last century's wars - it has more recently been used by the Troika as a tool to keep the neoliberal economic program from falling apart.

Without the ability to independently value their own currency, the southern European countries have had no tools to counteract the fallout from the borrow and spend mentality sold to them - turning them into debt serfs or essentially slaves of the Troika. The single currency was destined to cause failure of the EMU and EU eventually. This Brexit result only pushes up the timetable.

The Brits were smart enough to avoid that pitfall by staying out of the EMU but that has not protected them from the loss of manufacturing and now they've been faced with another side effect: The fallout from the endless middle east wars - with refugees on the doorstep and Muslims radicalized from decades of war and destruction.

All of this exactly mirrors the plight of the working and middle class here in the USA just as the Brexit vote is also mirrored by the Sanders and Trump phenomenon here.

All 3 of these things - Brexit, Sanders and Trump are signs that the establishment elites are loosing control. The are reaping what they have sown.

Many people are putting down their smartphones and waking up to what has been done to them.  They may not understand exactly what has happened but they know they've been wronged and they are ready to do whatever it takes to disrupt the status quo - even if it means short term economic pain.

It's unfortunate that history has demonstrated that these type of transformations are never smooth and without turmoil (and often war). Displaced workers blame outsiders and clever politicians can feed on that natural human tendency. Unfortunately in doing so they give safe harbor to racists and xenophobes which while usually small in number are loud enough to allow unfair generalizations to be made about all those who rail against the status quo. The politicos are quick to exploit such divisions in Goebble - esk fashion - whipping up political tribalism and nationalist sentiments.

We live in dangerous times.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jitter on June 26, 2016, 05:34:30 am
Britain needs two more voting rounds:

1. Shall we have a vote for another vote in which we vote for "Remain" or "Leave".
2. Shall we "Remain" or "Leave", this time I really mean it after I Googled for "What is EU", "What it means to leave the EU" and the "£350m for the NHS" is not going to happen.

We voted.
It's DONE.

Oh no, the hard part is only just about to start... 
With such a small win for the Leave-camp, there's definitely going to be opposition from the Remain-camp; you're at the beginning of a long and winding road, and that's with the EU just sitting there and waiting  :popcorn:.

But that's not to say that the rest of the EU will have it easy either. There will be other proponents to leaving the EU that might feel more self assured to let their voices be heard now.
You know, as the inhabitant of a small country, I'm a bit suspicious towards the big countries like Germany and France. We don't feel treated equally, so for the EU to have a chance to survive, it might be good to overthink the current structure...
Unions only last as long as people feel content about them. It's clear some don't, and that's not just the British. But then those with the power will really be reluctant to give it up, ah well, l'histoire se répète... as the French say.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 26, 2016, 05:55:33 am
All the treateds ot trade that have Uk are with EU, when you had decided to exit EU all the trateds are nulls and have to negociate since 0, not only with EU else  with at all world(Usa,Canada, China).

Enjoy TTIP when the EU hands over your sovereignty to US corporations.

The EU has no deal with China   :palm:

I already have all the maple syrup I can eat :)

i  will certain enjoy ,  i will have table saw machine for 300-400 € and not as here that are beetween 1000-2000€ besides  the others tools that here i can't find or are very expensives.


The new train  silk route. Yiwu(China)-Madrid(Spain)
http://www.elperiodico.com/es/graficos/sociedad/tren-mas-largo-china-espana-7438/ (http://www.elperiodico.com/es/graficos/sociedad/tren-mas-largo-china-espana-7438/)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 26, 2016, 06:53:35 am
Nah. Obama explicitly stated that if the UK leaves then all our trade deals will be at the back of the queue. So we will see what happens after the EU drunker Juncker manages to rattle off a scrawled signature signing away the rest of Europe to the globalist corporations despite all your concerned citizens and MEPs being totally against TTIP.

Unfortunate that our leader is a bit of a f-ing moron on some issues, like this one.

It was said as a way to exert pressure... to threaten the UK into not leaving.  The UK ought to move to the top of the list.  They are our oldest and staunchest ally and one of the largest economies in the world.

The special relationship doesn't mean much if the USA kicks the UK while they are down.  A very very sweetheart of a trade deal should be announced and quickly implemented - a trade deal that surpasses any other trade deal we have with anyone else.

That's just basic common sense.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 26, 2016, 08:04:17 am
Well I voted leave for better or worse. It was actually partly out of frustration with the ignorance of people don't seem to know how things work. Everything is Europe's fault well now we are out we have only ourselves to blame! I am afraid that if I made the wrong decision it is the fault of the in campaign because instead of playing things in the usual political way of just making counterclaims and telling more lies they should have done things differently. It is well known that there is a lot of ignorance about how things actually work so if the in campaign was so fucking keen why weren't they organising public meetings and lectures for people like myself who genuinely wanted to know what was going on. Instead no they just did like the out campaign told lies and delivered loads of leaflets and try to counteract the claims of the out campaign.

I have had 2 versions of every argument told to me so I have basically been given no information at all. I don't even know what I need to start searching for I don't know what the EU does. I know very little. I have been told that we have the 4th loudest voice in the EU and this is because we are the 4th biggest contributor. Well this unsettles me for starters if this is a democratic thing why is it that the more you pay the more you can say and the more you can have it your way? Why do we have countries in the union that are not on an equal footing with the original founding countries? I did not vote out because of immigration I am well aware that the UK government already has full control over immigration and if we are having problems it's their own sorry fault. Of course the in campaigners were very quick to tell us just how many people have emigrated from the UK to Europe well as it actually happens a lot of those are pensioners, their health care costs I believe are paid by the UK so they are not a burden on the countries they land in and they are pouring money into the economy they live in because they buy houses and they spend their pensions that are drawn from the UK in those countries.

I spent 14 years in Italy so I got to see a little bit of the other side. The euro was the biggest fucking disaster ever. When I lived in Italy and they had the lira the exchange rate to the pound which my English grandfather would watch very carefully as his pension came from England would vary wildly over a few weeks from 2500 lira to the pound to 3200 lira to the pound that's a variation of around 10 to 15% either way from the mean and we are whingeing about a 10% change that reverted to 4.5% 6 hours later after we have taken one of the most momentous decisions in history? Some people need to get a fucking grip. Of course once countries like Italy had locked themselves into a Euro well they're stuck and we saw that with Greece. Italy like many other countries I believe Greece Spain and Portugal and probably more wanted to join the euro for some on earthly reason but because their economies were not up to par with say France and Germany they had to pay a fee to join. I never quite got the point of paying a fee to join something you're not up to joining. I assume this was some sort of insurance policy well unfortunately insurance is gambling and I think they gambled the wrong way Europe that is or maybe it's just worse for the countries affected and Europe is gaining gain it's so complicated nobody understands it.

During my time in Italy it became extremely clear that any migrant that made it Italy would have preferred the UK. I don't know why this is maybe it's true that we are lenient with benefits I sure hope we are not because when we returned to the UK my sister was denied jobseekers allowance because "she did not have any ties in the country" she only had what was left of her family at the time of the ruling had already joined a social club and helped raise money in the community and with myself was part owner of a house in England never mind the fact she was born in this country and had a British passport yet she was denied benefit so I sure hope migrants aren't getting a better deal than this. A colleague I worked with from Romania kept asking me to help him get to England and I kept saying why? You are a printer there are no printing jobs in the UK he wanted to come back with me and start our own printing business yet I knew that unemployment was already high here and yet they still wanted to come. This man had initially paid £10,000 for a fake British passport but in his case he got conned he paid his money and never saw the passport. So Italy was his next port of call it easy to get into and the local police were well aware he was an illegal migrant and could not care less. Once you are in a country in the EU it is easier for you to move around within the EU so you find the weakest country to enter.......

I hope that people will now take more of an interest in their country because what is scandalous is that more people turned out for this vote which is about something that they cannot directly control and turned out to vote for their own local MP you know the person they can actually make an appointment with to talk to to tell their views to and hope that under the influence of their constituent views will make decisions in their best interests. What likelihood have I speaking to my MEP or any other member of the European Parliament? But alas I fear that we will just go back to blaming another political establishment and not doing anything about anything. We supposedly live in a democracy and we only get things done when we shout about it. The very distasteful thing I found about the campaign was amount of people that were treating the vote on the EU as a vote of confidence in our own government. Granted we can have a nasty bastard as Prime Minister but we had one of those already and if people don't like something they should protest.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: VK3DRB on June 26, 2016, 08:49:18 am
I used to be an NRA member.  I left because Wayne LaPierre is a nutcase.  I couldn't support the way the organization was run.  Black helicopters and other horse manure.

Wayne LaPierre's annual salary is close to $US 1 million. Some people would kill to earn that much.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Howardlong on June 26, 2016, 09:07:45 am
Simon

What that tells us is that everyone has their own reasons for voting the way they did.

There is a rather ugly trait from many people who should know better who have been prejudging and stereotyping what they see as a Leave voter, generally along the lines of accusations of racism, bogotry, xenophobia, being ignorant, uneducated, gullible, or any combination of those things. All of which I find interesting because such prejuducial mantra isn't what I would expect from some of those spewing the vitriol. When challenenged it's, "Oh, I don't mean you"... errrr, well, who did you mean?!!

Certainly in my own case, my own concerns were over increased federalisation, fiscal parity and continued expansion into fiscally incompatible states, and nobody can explain what the benefit of any of that is other than for the self serving EU gravy train.

The EU in its original form, the EEC, or Common Market, was meant to create a common trading area, but along the line it has been successively morphed into something quite different, and something that is out of control, accountable only to itself, and is apparently unstoppable. If that is what the EU's idea of reform is, I don't want it thank you.

If the remain campaign had offered any evidence that the EU is capable of reform away from their current super state mentality, I am sure many would have thought differently.

Regarding the lies, it was hardly difficult to be able to see that things like claiming all the £350m pw going to the EU was going to be put into the NHS was bollocks. There have been a few others presented like this, somewhat repetitively, but I think it's rather naive to suggest that a voter couldn't see through it. I could equally well spell out plenty of lies from the remain side, such as the denials that Turkey was to join, or that the EU is capable of reform, or that the UK could negotiate anything more than tiny breadcrumbs.

This fella pretty much explains my view in general as far as I'm concerned:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHpOgaE4R-I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHpOgaE4R-I)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: G7PSK on June 26, 2016, 09:12:18 am
I also voted to leave partly due to the fact that I saw voting in forty odd years ago as a mistake I could rectify, but I was for in until we started to get threatened by the likes of Obama, and like many other British people and probably other nationalities as well once threatened we dig our heels in and do the opposite. 
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Howardlong on June 26, 2016, 09:25:32 am
I also voted to leave partly due to the fact that I saw voting in forty odd years ago as a mistake I could rectify, but I was for in until we started to get threatened by the likes of Obama, and like many other British people and probably other nationalities as well once threatened we dig our heels in and do the opposite.

Indeed, having someone from the outside telling you how to vote is hardly going to be treated with anything other than to question their motives. Almost certainly Obama would have been reading from something heavily based on a Cameron prepared text.

What's more interesting is that I saw it merely as preaching to the converted, but you saw it as a threat. As I said, we all had our own reasons.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 26, 2016, 09:30:50 am
I was pretty astonished by Obama's claim. One of my reasons for voting out was because I don't want his trade deal he can keep his flipping trade deal. America does not like buying from the outside why should we buy from America? At work we designed a system for a customer that customer has now sold the widest system our system goes on to America. The Americans only want half system because they have decided to supply their own version of the other half yet I have a connector dealer wanting to sell me cheap shit connectors from America because that is the only way of them being cheaper than the nice connectors made in Europe. Why should I have to buy American connectors when the Americans won't buy the system the connectors go on?

The disaster in our steel industry demonstrates what we need to do. And on this point in particular I got opposing arguments from both sides so I decided out then there is no excuse for a sporting import duties on goods that require it. I'm not saying I think everything should have import duties but when you are getting cheap shit from China it should be made to be expensive shit so that whoever buys it learns a sharp lesson and it makes better quality product made in our own country more viable. I'm not particularly a fan of protectionism but what do you do about economies that are able to produce much cheaper then you simply because there everything is worthless? If you have equal economies competing in the sale of the product the Best product will win because the price will depend on the product. But when you are talking China is not a lot you can do except slap great big import duty on it.

And yes I voted out despite the fact that the whole reason I am selling micro currents for Dave is that it is easier for me to sell them into Europe being in the EU than it is for Dave. But I think there are bigger things to worry about than a little bit of short term gain.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: pelule on June 26, 2016, 09:33:14 am
Quote
but I was for in until we started to get threatened by the likes of Obama, and like many other British people and probably other nationalities as well once threatened we dig our heels in and do the opposite.
As I previous to the voting mentioned, the voting will be emotionel at the end.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 26, 2016, 09:34:04 am
And not a lot of people seem to realise that the Chinese put 100% import duty on everything they buy in so what are we playing at? No doubt somebody is gaining let me guess some big businessman that are importing this crap and then selling it to us for inflated prices that is why the government is weak on these things because big business speaks louder than those who elect them.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: diyaudio on June 26, 2016, 10:12:11 am
If UK exit Putin will have a bottle of champagne

Why should we care? We are not at war with him. Ohh he took an Island with an important naval base and a near 100% ethnically Russian population and helped a Russian region in Georgia.

We Who?I just mentioned a fact! Ooh, Putin shoot down a airliner full of Dutch people, why should you care/ be bothered by such a little pesky thing.. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36350520 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36350520)

Quote
In the mean time we threw tons of money at the Ukraine to destabilize a government and subsequently coming very close to putting a bunch of genocidal neo-nazis into power. For what? To create a money pit the EU is somehow obligated to pour billions into year after year? (Mark my words, we will bail the IMF out in the Ukraine soon. My country's annoying little referendum delayed it a bit, but they will get the money train back on the rails. There is no alternative.)We bombed Lybia to hell and all the EU got out of it was a massive increase in boats with refugees. Our "allies" are a much bigger danger to us than Putin.

The reason EU+ US bombed the pants of Gaddafi was because the dude was about to commit mass murder but WE then after his death deliberately forgot to seize all the European made armory we had sold to the sleazebag. Here the list for you to study:
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/mar/01/eu-arms-exports-libya (http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/mar/01/eu-arms-exports-libya)

But heey, you might like Gaddafi since EU made a deal with the dude to stop immigrants from Africa..How sad that "WE" then bombed the shit out of the dude..

War in Ukraine are "big elephant politics" way above your ideas about neo natzi government, btw majority of those loose nazi cannons are integrated into the Ukraine army(how convenient). If you haven't noticed yet "fascism" is popular these days, both in us europe/us and surprise Russia! Yeah Putin is really a fascist if you look into what he says and his actions! How strange for a dude with sovjiet KGB background but with Russia nothing is impossible even civil war and if its going to be nasty and very dangerous, it's all west's fault as he like to say!

do actually believe what you read from the bbc? theguardian? and then propagate those as facts?  :palm:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on June 26, 2016, 10:19:47 am



The EU in its original form, the EEC, or Common Market, was meant to create a common trading area, but along the line it has been successively morphed into something quite different, 

That's a big part of our (the UK's) problem.   It was sold to *us* by *our* politicians as merely a common trading area, but the people who started it had a mission to unify Europe so as to prevent future wars.   Anyone who thinks a new world war couldn't start in Europe only has to look at the Balkans.   Since the EU was mis-sold to us as merely for free trade, it is not surprising some of us are increasingly disillusioned, but the founding states definitely had more in mind.  FWIW, I am with them in wanting a unified Europe, even if it means compromises.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 26, 2016, 10:27:37 am
my hope is that we can now negotiate the trade that we originally thought we were buying into without all the other crap. My hope is that now we have to debate stuff in our own government instead of argue it in europe poeple will hear about what is going on and take an interest.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Fraser on June 26, 2016, 10:40:24 am
The UK's greatest challenge today, post BREXIT, is to find a group of politicians worthy and capable of running the country as it should be run, in order to prosper. Decent high quality politicians can be a rare commodity these days !

Fraser
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 26, 2016, 10:42:15 am
The UK's greatest challenge today, post BREXIT, is to find a group of politicians worthy and capable of running the country as it should be run, in order to prosper. Decent high quality politicians can be a rare commodity these days !

Fraser

the problem is we are stuck with this lot for another 4 years. Unless we have a snap election which I think is what we ahould have. We chose to leave, not which party will lead us in leaving or which dick head is prime minister.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 26, 2016, 10:47:42 am
The UK's greatest challenge today, post BREXIT, is to find a group of politicians worthy and capable of running the country as it should be run, in order to prosper. Decent high quality politicians can be a rare commodity these days !

Fraser

the problem is we are stuck with this lot for another 4 years. Unless we have a snap election which I think is what we ahould have. We chose to leave, not which party will lead us in leaving or which dick head is prime minister.
e
You did, a good year ago.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 26, 2016, 10:49:57 am


the problem is we are stuck with this lot for another 4 years. Unless we have a snap election which I think is what we ahould have. We chose to leave, not which party will lead us in leaving or which dick head is prime minister.
e
You did, a good year ago.

I know, on a slim majority.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Jeroen3 on June 26, 2016, 11:39:27 am
Across the channel it looks like the united kingdoms are having a revolution.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Fraser on June 26, 2016, 11:45:43 am
I note in a previous post concern regarding war or military conflict in Europe after BREXIT.

My last role in the Office was as a World threat analyst. I can say with some confidence that whilst the EU may fragment, NATO will not. People should not confuse EU membership with NATO membership. One revolves around money, the other around border security. I have no issues with the Russian people, but Mr Putin has ensured that many countries are currently fearful of him and his plans for expansion. NATO is as strong and bonded as it has ever been.

As to Britain and 'Ruling the Waves'....... Fair comment. Our Royal Navy has not been immune to the austerity measures that have been imposed due to poor financial decisions by the Banks etc. We are down, but not out.

I must be careful what I say but there is a bit of a surprise in store when our latest aircraft carrier sets sail on her maiden deployment.

What people need to realise is that, like myself, we Britons are not always money centric. We were/are a proud country that sometimes makes tough decisions and follows the more difficult path that is morally or nationally right, rather than financially lucrative. I am proud of that trait. Money can indeed be the root of all evil.

As to our special relationship with the USA, again I am careful what I say, but from first hand experience I can confirm that there is a VERY special relationship with us on the Diplomatic, Military and counter terrorism front. That is still rock solid as it is mutually beneficial.

Fraser
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 26, 2016, 12:11:11 pm
What people need to realise is that, like myself, we Britons are not always money centric. We were/are a proud country that sometimes makes tough decisions and follows the more difficult path that is morally or nationally right, rather than financially lucrative. I am proud of that trait.
Just wait until the less fortunate get an empty stomage and see how they feel about taking the more difficult path. I still recall the massive riots during Thatcher's 'rule' because people lost their jobs.  :popcorn:
People have to eat and that takes a working economy to begin with. In this day & age a working economy for a small country (yes, the UK is a small country) means being part of economic aliances like the EU.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Fraser on June 26, 2016, 01:03:11 pm
Nctnico,

We shall agree to differ. I do not foresee the Armageddon that you seem to predict within the UK as a realistic view. We are a small but potent country, like it or not, we can be VERY resilient. The Thatcher years and Miners Strike etc, are not a good example of how the UK operates. I lived through those years.... It was a war between our Government and the Labour Unions. The Falkland Conflict was very controversial but our response caught the Argentinians completely by surprise. They expected us to roll over and accept their actions unchallenged. Never underestimate a Briton, we can often surprise our adversaries.

You describe us as a "small" country, true, but as I said we can be a potent country as well. It is all about the make up and attitude of the population, not the square metre area of the turf :) We are a centre of excellence in technology and engineering. If we are as insignificant as some would like to believe, why has our decision spread shock waves across the World markets and political arena ?

I welcome overseas workers in the UK, provided they have something to offer rather than just abusing our hospitality. We have enough problems without importing new ones ! I am a Briton to the heart and proud of it. I worked for my Government to advance our countries interests. I am a patriot but that does not make me narrow minded or wrong to want the UK to stand alone when it comes to its governance and leadership.

It is unrealistic to believe a small country must be part of the EU in order to prosper. The EU is not the panacea to success that some may think. Not all countries are the same or offer the same capabilities

Finally, In my job I worked closely with the EU in Brussels on specialist topics. We were seen as the experts in our field yet I was mortified at some of what I witnessed around the meeting table when there.

Fraser
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on June 26, 2016, 01:08:16 pm
EU members announced they'll hold the first meetings without UK on the summit next week.

And the French at least will be keen to punish the UK pour encourager les autres.

Fascist/Nazi regimes are known for punishing their unfollowers very hard, cant stand their loss, even if minor, like a true psychopath, and can only answer this kind of situations with more oppression and control.
I hope the whole construction collapses fast, and I don't care witch fabricated "amount" of worthless "money" my house will be worth.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jitter on June 26, 2016, 01:10:15 pm
One thing is for sure, whether one agrees with leaving the EU or not, taking such a decision took balls, and I respect that.
It is time for change, and there's no way around that now, not just for the UK, for the EU and the rest of the world as well.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 26, 2016, 01:21:21 pm
You describe us as a "small" country, true, but as I said we can be a potent country as well. It is all about the make up and attitude of the population, not the square metre area of the turf :) We are a centre of excellence in technology and engineering. If we are as insignificant as some would like to believe, why has our decision spread shock waves across the World markets and political arena ?
Well the situation in Greece send similar shock waves through the world markets and political arena.
BTW I used to work for a company in the NL which obliterated an entire branch of the telecom industry in the UK within a couple of years. So how does that work for excellence in technology and engineering?

Edit: name one thing the UK is better at nowadays than all the other countries in the EU! Englisch breakfast and oldest Queen don't count  >:D
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on June 26, 2016, 01:25:53 pm
I bet that in ten years time Germany and Turkey are the only ones remaining in the EU.

That is the best post in this whole thread!  :D
Together with some ghettos hellholes like Brussels, London and Paris.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on June 26, 2016, 01:45:52 pm
... why has our decision spread shock waves across the World markets and political arena ?...
It's only the self-serving BIGSTATE political arena with their ever-growing bureaucracy, their controlled globalist World marked and their subsidized Media that is shook up.
For the rest, nobody cares.

I just did a real-de-facto-purchase of real-de-facto-goods in a real-de-facto company in the UK for +-3K euro.
Just like I did last year, and just like I did in the Eighties, before EU became TOTALCONTROLL.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Fraser on June 26, 2016, 01:47:34 pm
Nctnico,

Greece is not in any way the same situation as UK. Surely you can see that ? Even our Greek friends on this forum say that their Government squandered their money and they needed to be bailed out with massive loans. Of course that would send shock waves through the financial world. A country was on the brink of financial implosion........and it used the Euro. This was an unheard of situation caused by mismanagement at Government level and being locked into the Euro.

Last time I checked, the U.K. Was not asking for bail out funds from the EU due to being bankrupt, or using the locked in Euro :) see the difference :)

With regard to the telecoms industry...... I was not aware that the UK was a technological leader in that particular industry. NOKIA was the main player for some time. The U.K. Invents products, that does not always mean it is the biggest player in that technologies deployment. It is a major centre of excellence, but it is not the only one, far from it. I am pleased that your previous employer did well with their technology. Being patriotic towards your own country does not make me hostile or anti another's success. That would be a very silly attitude.

It is really  good to have these discussions and please do not take anything I write as an attack on your views. They are just my viewpoint and thankfully we are able to air such views without fear as we live in a region of free speech where all views are welcome. At the end of the day none of us individuals can change the current situation but it is still interesting to hear the opinions of those who either opposed BREXIT or who live in the rest of Europe.

Fear not, your names will not be entered into my 'little black book' for a visit by the goon squad. That is the world that I would fear, not the EU. When you compare our situation to those living in North Korea, we are so lucky, and have little to complain about. For that I am grateful.

Best Wishes

Fraser
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 26, 2016, 01:55:20 pm
I bet that in ten years time Germany and Turkey are the only ones remaining in the EU.

That is the best post in this whole thread!  :D
Together with some ghettos hellholes like Brussels, London and Paris.
Excuse me. I live in Brussels (Schaarbeek yes).  And I stay in Paris and London often. We aren't ghettos hellholes. Get real.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on June 26, 2016, 02:00:35 pm
Obama basically said the US cares more about a trade agreement with all of EU than a single country since the EU-market is so much bigger, which makes sense. Why they (Obama and Cameron) supposedly believed that saying that would make more people vote for remain I'm not sure. :-\
The Obamist should better keep his mouth shut. His country chose an UsExit from Britain in 1776, they are the separatists.


we have allegedly gotten trade offers from Russia
EDIT: for the record, I wish the EU could be better friends with Russia as well, every one benefits from peace and better relations.
[/quote]
USA chose the fascist religious regime Turkey as an ally, to keep provoking trouble between imperialist-EU and Russia.

I wonder how the subsidized Media will portrey Scotland now (not really)
They are like Crimea, that chose to separate from the country Ukraine and reattach to Russia again.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on June 26, 2016, 02:03:32 pm
Excuse me. I live in Brussels (Schaarbeek yes).  And I stay in Paris and London often. We aren't ghettos hellholes. Get real.
So you are used to it. I had to work in Schaarbeek, sometimes in Paris, and it was a shock on a daily basis.
Or do you live in the eastern rich part of it, and are your travels to london in the elitarian "bankers city"?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 26, 2016, 02:06:24 pm
Excuse me. I live in Brussels (Schaarbeek yes).  And I stay in Paris and London often. We aren't ghettos hellholes. Get real.
So you are used to it. I had to work in Schaarbeek, sometimes in Paris, and it was a shock on a daily basis.
Or do you live in the rich part of it, and are your travels to london in the elitarian "bankers city"?
no and no
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on June 26, 2016, 02:12:01 pm
Excuse me. I live in Brussels (Schaarbeek yes).  And I stay in Paris and London often. We aren't ghettos hellholes. Get real.
So you are used to it. I had to work in Schaarbeek, sometimes in Paris, and it was a shock on a daily basis.
Or do you live in the rich part of it, and are your travels to london in the elitarian "bankers city"?
no and no
So ok, glad for you, that you are happy with that kind of environment.
I had nasty experiences enough there, and compared to the environment of my preferences, I call that a hellhole. Without stating that worse is impossible.
(rue d''anethan, FJ Navez, Rue Masui,..)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 26, 2016, 02:21:23 pm
do actually believe what you read from the bbc? theguardian? and then propagate those as facts?  :palm:
You cant be that simple minded!?! :palm:  Why not read the "whole thread" and the ongoing debate rather fetching for ad hominem and his friends. :-//
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 26, 2016, 02:27:28 pm
my hope is that we can now negotiate the trade that we originally thought we were buying into without all the other crap. My hope is that now we have to debate stuff in our own government instead of argue it in europe poeple will hear about what is going on and take an interest.

I believe that the negotiations will be run in a normal diplomatic spirit of two befriended entities that know each other for centuries. With the best possible common outcome.
Diplomats are used to do these talks with rationality and common sense.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on June 26, 2016, 02:33:03 pm
Well I voted leave ...well now we are out we have only ourselves to blame...The euro was the biggest fucking disaster ever... and had a British passport yet she was denied benefit so I sure hope migrants aren't getting a better deal than this.
What a surprise. I previously saw you as somebody from the top-3 PolCo guys/girls/trans/... of this forum, and in my simplification of the happening they al vote Remain.

And not a lot of people seem to realise that the Chinese put 100% import duty on everything they buy in so what are we playing at? No doubt somebody is gaining let me guess some big businessman that are importing this crap and then selling it to us for inflated prices that is why the government is weak on these things because big business speaks louder than those who elect them.
Sounds like you suddenly even prefer the self-proclaimed strong-negotiator that promises to make his country great again :-)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 26, 2016, 02:38:20 pm
We are part of Europe, but we don't belong in the EU. It is the EU we have rejected, not the ordinary people of Europe.

The EU is fundamentally opposite to us culturally. As a German, I don't expect you to understand. I know a lot of Germans, mostly we get on, and we can have a drink and a laugh, but none actually understand English culture, just as I don't understand some of the things I've come across in Germany ('being the father' - culturally acceptable bullying from my point of view), we have very different history and geography and have made our way to where we are now separately.

My kids aren't facing a grimmer future now we've released ourselves from the EU. There may be some temporary
pain, but we'll get past it to hopefully a brighter future where we aren't tied to the failing EU experiment.

English culture? Your right, no one understands the English love for English eccentricity. Whom do you define as ordinary people of EU who's not part of EU? From when in time do you consider you braked away and formed a particularly English culture? After the demise of Romans? House of Plantagenet?The Vikings?
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/07/17/article-2366576-1569130A000005DC-663_306x423.jpg)(https://theburningbloggerofbedlam.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/jimmysavile.jpg)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Fraser on June 26, 2016, 02:46:45 pm
Nctnico,

I see you asked for an example of what the UK does better in terms of technology than all EU countries.

Simple...... Four words. ...... Rolls Royce Aero engines :)

My father was production engineering manager at RR Aero Engines. As a result I know a thing or two about advanced technology gas turbine engines :) The amazing Pegasus power plant powered the much revered and feared Harrier AV8B 'Jump Jet' that the USA Marines still use and love. Their US designed replacement is still in development.

Sadly our stupid Government scrapped our refurbished AV8B squadrons on poor advice from an old Tornado pilot who wanted knackered old Tornado's to survive the cuts. The USA were livid as they very much liked the airframe and it's reliable power plant.

You asked, so I answered :)

Fraser
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on June 26, 2016, 02:51:35 pm
Well, let's assume that the BREXIT decision and the UK breaks away.... What next?

Since the concept of an international union seems to have offered benefits, then I can see the possibility of an alternative union being considered.  Initial potential parties could be the UK and the USA - and if other EU members exercise their right to leave, they might also be interested.  There would be one major advantage to any such discussion, particularly in regard to potential problems - the EU example.  If it gains traction, the EU might find more countries jump ship.  Since there are issues some (if not most) countries have with the current EU setup, this does not seem too far fetched.

I might wonder what you would call it, though.  Trans Atlantic Union? 

Maybe we should avoid a geographical definition - there's been enough griping about the definition of 'Europe'.  Since China seems to be thinking independently, perhaps we could look at it representing the "Western Hemisphere".

Hmmm..... "Western Union" ...... There might be some trademark problems there.

Then again, one must also be aware that there could be further problems which develop.  There might be a clash within the USA and you could find some states wanting to go down a different path.  We could then end up with a Southern Union.  (The confederate flag might live again.)


Nevertheless, by the time this process goes through a sufficient number of iterations and we find ourselves with a truly effective, functional and democratic model, we could find ourselves stepping up to the plate and establishing the United Federation of Planets.

We'll have mastered intergalactic travel by then.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 26, 2016, 02:56:59 pm

Quote
The Obamist should better keep his mouth shut. His country chose an UsExit from Britain in 1776, they are the separatists.

You don't wrong the USexit were funded by the Spanish Kingdom and France Kingdom , without them ,the yankees had been massacred as the Boers.

Besides ,their USA dollars are based at Spanish dollars.



http://www.historiayarqueologia.com/m/blogpost?id=3814916%3ABlogPost%3A375811 (http://www.historiayarqueologia.com/m/blogpost?id=3814916%3ABlogPost%3A375811)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on June 26, 2016, 02:59:44 pm
Nctnico,

I see you asked for an example of what the UK does better in terms of technology than all EU countries.

Simple...... Four words. ...... Rolls Royce Aero engines :)


Rolls Royce have been doing very good things with aircraft engines for quite some time.  They powered my favourite aircraft - the Spitfire.  That was quite some time ago ... and they're still doing good work.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Fraser on June 26, 2016, 03:00:25 pm
MT,

I am sad that you resorted to posting an image of the pond life that is Saville. Poor taste mate. He does not represent what it is to be British or anything about our culture. He is hated throughout the UK for what he did. No one is defending his actions. Every country has child molesters, he was sadly in a unique position to take advantage of celebrity and avoid detection.

Fraser
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 26, 2016, 03:15:31 pm
We are part of Europe, but we don't belong in the EU. It is the EU we have rejected, not the ordinary people of Europe.

The EU is fundamentally opposite to us culturally. As a German, I don't expect you to understand. I know a lot of Germans, mostly we get on, and we can have a drink and a laugh, but none actually understand English culture, just as I don't understand some of the things I've come across in Germany ('being the father' - culturally acceptable bullying from my point of view), we have very different history and geography and have made our way to where we are now separately.

My kids aren't facing a grimmer future now we've released ourselves from the EU. There may be some temporary
pain, but we'll get past it to hopefully a brighter future where we aren't tied to the failing EU experiment.



English culture? Your right, no one understands the English love for English eccentricity. Whom do you define as ordinary people of EU who's not part of EU? From when in time do you consider you braked away and formed a particularly English culture? After the demise of Romans? House of Plantagenet?The Vikings?
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/07/17/article-2366576-1569130A000005DC-663_306x423.jpg)(https://theburningbloggerofbedlam.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/jimmysavile.jpg)

More English culture
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: continuo on June 26, 2016, 03:21:01 pm
Well, let's assume that the BREXIT decision and the UK breaks away.... What next?

IMO, they won't do it. The longer it takes them to trigger article 50, the less likely it is they will ever do it. This will go on for months and years without any clear action. All they've achieved with their "referendum" was to wreck havoc onto themselves and the whole EU  :palm:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 26, 2016, 03:34:10 pm
Whom do you define as ordinary people of EU who's not part of EU?

I'm fairly certain you're being deliberately obtuse.

I said people of Europe as in geographic location.

The EU is the corrupt, anti-democratic organisation.

We have a culture of liking and upholding democracy, as I think you've just witnessed. The EU has a culture of punishing those who dare to exercise democracy.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 26, 2016, 03:38:53 pm
Nctnico,

I see you asked for an example of what the UK does better in terms of technology than all EU countries.

Simple...... Four words. ...... Rolls Royce Aero engines :)


Rolls Royce have been doing very good things with aircraft engines for quite some time.  They powered my favourite aircraft - the Spitfire.  That was quite some time ago ... and they're still doing good work.

Rolls Royce aircraft engines are like the Rolls Royce of aircraft engines.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 26, 2016, 03:59:33 pm
I don't understand why the continentals are so upset about Brexit.

Membership in the EU is voluntary and one member chose to leave. This is their country and their prerogative and they do in accordance with EU rules.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: continuo on June 26, 2016, 04:11:33 pm
It's more of a disappointment, at least to me. And don't forget, our linked economies also suffer by their childish actions, albeit admittedly to a far lesser degree than theirs but still. Of course, it's their right to leave at any time if they wish to do so, the door is wide open, they just have to sign article 50. But somehow I have this nagging feeling that this is never going to happen. At the end we all will be left with lots of burned money and political instability but nothing much gained for the UK. But yes, a day of national pride will be worth it  :-+
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 26, 2016, 04:14:20 pm
Whom do you define as ordinary people of EU who's not part of EU?

I'm fairly certain you're being deliberately obtuse.

I said people of Europe as in geographic location.

The EU is the corrupt, anti-democratic organisation.

We have a culture of liking and upholding democracy, as I think you've just witnessed. The EU has a culture of punishing those who dare to exercise democracy.


Sir Samuel Romilly, speaking to the House of Commons on capital punishment in 1810, declared that "there is no country on the face of the earth in which there have been so many different offences according to law to be punished with death as in England."[2] Known as the "Bloody Code", at its height the criminal law included some 220 crimes punishable by death, including "being in the company of Gypsies for one month", "strong evidence of malice in a child aged 7–14 years of age" and "blacking the face or using a disguise whilst committing a crime". Many of these offences had been introduced to protect the property of the wealthy classes that emerged during the first half of the 18th century, a notable example being the Black Act of 1723, which created 50 capital offences for various acts of theft and poaching.[citation needed] Crimes eligible for the death penalty included shoplifting and stealing sheep, cattle, and horses, and before abolition of the death penalty for theft in 1832, "English law was notorious for prescribing the death penalty for a vast range of offenses as slight as the theft of goods valued at twelve pence."[3]

Come on,  The Reichstag compared with the House of Commons were a saints  :-DD  :-DD  :-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 26, 2016, 04:14:32 pm
I don't understand why the continentals are so upset about Brexit.

Membership in the EU is voluntary and one member chose to leave. This is their country and their prerogative and they do in accordance with EU rules.

From a distance, one would wonder.  The thing is, the UK is an important member of the EU not least because they are the 4th or 5th largest spender on military in the world.  While other countries can underspend and rely on the UK to take up the slack they are happy but now they might not have the total support of the UK.

For the moment, the leadership of the EU wants to play hardball with the UK believing that none of their actions will be the least bit damaging to NATO.  I wouldn't make that bet!  It is in the continentals' best interest to make the divorce as amicable as possible and, for a start, they need to reign in the rhetoric.  If the EU takes damaging trade positions, the UK might not be able to maintain its military posture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

The folks running the EU better extract their heads from the asses.  This referendum could be the beginning of the end of the EU.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on June 26, 2016, 04:17:52 pm
We are part of Europe, but we don't belong in the EU. It is the EU we have rejected, not the ordinary people of Europe.
Still the Brits rejected the idea of a unified Europe because they decided to dream of a past glory instead of working on a brighter future.
As a side note: even Churchill understood the European idea when he said: "It is to re-create the European Family, or as much of it as we can, and provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom."

As a German, I don't expect you to understand.
What is that supposed to mean? That I can't understand differences in culture because I'm German? Really?

Well I voted leave for better or worse. It was actually partly out of frustration with the ignorance of people don't seem to know how things work. Everything is Europe's fault well now we are out we have only ourselves to blame! I am afraid that if I made the wrong decision it is the fault of the in campaign because instead of playing things in the usual political way of just making counterclaims and telling more lies they should have done things differently. It is well known that there is a lot of ignorance about how things actually work so if the in campaign was so fucking keen why weren't they organising public meetings and lectures for people like myself who genuinely wanted to know what was going on. Instead no they just did like the out campaign told lies and delivered loads of leaflets and try to counteract the claims of the out campaign
It's mildly shocking to see the suspicion confirmed that lots of Brits didn't really understand the consequences of their vote and didn't even care to google the lies of UKIP and Boris Johnson. There's simply no excuse for following dumb populism instead of investigating the unpleasant truth before making a decision that could break your country apart and lead it into misery.

My kids aren't facing a grimmer future now we've released ourselves from the EU. There may be some temporary pain, but we'll get past it to hopefully a brighter future where we aren't tied to the failing EU experiment.
There is no debate that the UK will suffer. Actually this could well be the end of the UK as we know it when Scotland leaves for good and the North Ireland conflict comes up again. Just hope that Wales stays, else it gets really difficult for the Prince of Wales and the Union Jack. And of course the financial impact will be heavy. Lots of companies will move from England, Banks/Bankers will move to Amsterdam and Frankfurt. Chinese EU imports will move from England to Amsterdam, Bremerhaven or whatever. Letting aside if BMW will continue to produce the Mini in the UK and other stuff like this. So yes, times will be bitter for Britain. And not only in the short term.
For the EU: well, not so much. Some things will even get easier. Actually, the cautionary tale of Britains misery might help to stop other nationalist movements.

But Germany's idea of a European superstate, that was entirely alien to us (but very much in line with German thinking)
All it created was nationalism throughout Europe, which then led to Brexit.
[...]
German politicians created Brexit, nobody else.
Wow, I'm somewhat bewildered by statements like that. Living in a state with central government you're probably not aware that Germany is a federal republic. Even though our 16 federal states differ a lot in culture and financial resources, this model of government works good enough for us to believe that something like this should be also possible on an European scale. Of course it's debatable how responsibilities are split withing the federal states and the federation, still not even a Bavarian would say he lost his cultural identity because Bavaria is a part of the German Federation. And of course no German would ever agree with a central government in Brussels nor does any German dream the dream of world domination. Heck, not even the dumbest remaining German Nazi idiots ever uttered that desire after 1945.
I'm not sure if I find it amusing or frustrating to see people all over Europe always blame Germany for their misery based on a bizarre perception of the reality. It's easy of course to shift the blame to someone else instead of thinking of the more uncomfortable idea of having messed up something yourself. Still, really? Our fault again?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 26, 2016, 04:23:01 pm
Whom do you define as ordinary people of EU who's not part of EU?

I'm fairly certain you're being deliberately obtuse.  I said people of Europe as in geographic location.
The EU is the corrupt, anti-democratic organisation.  We have a culture of liking and upholding democracy, as I think you've just witnessed.
The EU has a culture of punishing those who dare to exercise democracy.

I new you would dodge my counter questions due to your hilarious rethorics! You your self dont know what the so called English culture is or stand for or its heritage. ;D
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Bud on June 26, 2016, 04:33:55 pm
do actually believe what you read from the bbc? theguardian? and then propagate those as facts?  :palm:
You cant be that simple minded!?! :palm:  Why not read the "whole thread" and the ongoing debate rather fetching for ad hominem and his friends. :-//

So I did and my observation is you constantly derail this thread, often with brainwashed comments particularly hateful towards Russia. You openly called Russia the enemy. You also post seemingly funny pictures but in a context where they may be taken offensively by parts of the audience. I think you do it deliberately to shape the reader's mind. What are you doing on this forum? Do you have an agenda? If not, my advice is the same as that of other people have given you - consume less propaganda and stop derailing this thread, which is otherwise is conducted in a civilized manner given the sensitivity of the topic being discussed.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 26, 2016, 04:39:04 pm
But yes, a day of national pride will be worth it  :-+

National pride may be hard to understand due to the anti nationalism measures the allies implanted in your culture after 1945.

;-)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 26, 2016, 04:39:21 pm
No, that is a concern of immigration. Concern about immigration != racism.
Funnily enough it seems that there is now plenty of evidence that there was not just "concern about immigration" but out and out racism behind the Leave vote.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-eu-referendum-racial-racism-abuse-hate-crime-reported-latest-leave-immigration-a7104191.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-eu-referendum-racial-racism-abuse-hate-crime-reported-latest-leave-immigration-a7104191.html)

The sad thing is that leaving the EU might not reduce immigration. It might even increase it if large numbers rush to "get in before the doors close".

It's also interesting that the Leave campaign started back peddling on some if its core claims almost as soon as the result was known.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/leave-campaign-rows-back-key-pledges-immigration-nhs-spending (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/leave-campaign-rows-back-key-pledges-immigration-nhs-spending)

I hope that we can make this work.


Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: continuo on June 26, 2016, 04:42:39 pm
But yes, a day of national pride will be worth it  :-+

National pride may be hard to understand due to the anti nationalism measures the allies implanted in your culture after 1945.

;-)


Yes, they did a very good job on that. And I'm very happy they did it  :-+
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: G7PSK on June 26, 2016, 04:46:25 pm
Whom do you define as ordinary people of EU who's not part of EU?

I'm fairly certain you're being deliberately obtuse.

I said people of Europe as in geographic location.

The EU is the corrupt, anti-democratic organisation.

We have a culture of liking and upholding democracy, as I think you've just witnessed. The EU has a culture of punishing those who dare to exercise democracy.


Sir Samuel Romilly, speaking to the House of Commons on capital punishment in 1810, declared that "there is no country on the face of the earth in which there have been so many different offences according to law to be punished with death as in England."[2] Known as the "Bloody Code", at its height the criminal law included some 220 crimes punishable by death, including "being in the company of Gypsies for one month", "strong evidence of malice in a child aged 7–14 years of age" and "blacking the face or using a disguise whilst committing a crime". Many of these offences had been introduced to protect the property of the wealthy classes that emerged during the first half of the 18th century, a notable example being the Black Act of 1723, which created 50 capital offences for various acts of theft and poaching.[citation needed] Crimes eligible for the death penalty included shoplifting and stealing sheep, cattle, and horses, and before abolition of the death penalty for theft in 1832, "English law was notorious for prescribing the death penalty for a vast range of offenses as slight as the theft of goods valued at twelve pence."[3]

Come on,  The Reichstag compared with the House of Commons were a saints  :-DD  :-DD  :-DD
Bloody good job we did have laws like that, otherwise we would not be here on this forum. :-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 26, 2016, 04:53:09 pm
We are part of Europe, but we don't belong in the EU. It is the EU we have rejected, not the ordinary people of Europe.
Still the Brits rejected the idea of a unified Europe because they decided to dream of a past glory instead of working on a brighter future.

...snip out reams of rhetoric....

Maybe yo should ask some people from the Southern European countries how the "brighter future" is going...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 26, 2016, 04:56:00 pm
No, that is a concern of immigration. Concern about immigration != racism.
Funnily enough it seems that there is now plenty of evidence that there was not just "concern about immigration" but out and out racism behind the Leave vote.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-eu-referendum-racial-racism-abuse-hate-crime-reported-latest-leave-immigration-a7104191.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-eu-referendum-racial-racism-abuse-hate-crime-reported-latest-leave-immigration-a7104191.html)

The sad thing is that leaving the EU might not reduce immigration. It might even increase it if large numbers rush to "get in before the doors close".

It's also interesting that the Leave campaign started back peddling on some if its core claims almost as soon as the result was known.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/leave-campaign-rows-back-key-pledges-immigration-nhs-spending (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/leave-campaign-rows-back-key-pledges-immigration-nhs-spending)

I hope that we can make this work.

 :palm: :palm: :palm:  Is that what you class as "plenty of evidence".

Over 17,000,000 people disagreed with your opinion on the EU.  That does not make them racist.  You epitomise the Liberal Elite that is incredibly out-of-touch with the people they are meant to represent.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: G0HZU on June 26, 2016, 04:58:51 pm
Quote
It's mildly shocking to see the suspicion confirmed that lots of Brits didn't really understand the consequences of their vote
I'll take it a step further and suggest that the major politicians and economists probably don't know the consequences either. At a time when the global economy is making a slow/uncertain/wobbly recovery it seemed reckless to consider a referendum.

My concern for the UK is that we are an ageing population who aren't as good at manufacturing stuff as we used to be. In my opinion, the leave vote was reinforced by older people who still view the UK (and its future prospects) through rose tinted specs.

Can we have a couple of WW2 Spitfires do a flypast please :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on June 26, 2016, 05:02:58 pm
Maybe yo should ask some people from the Southern European countries how the "brighter future" is going...
Let me guess: this is our fault as well? I would love to be able to live in a simplistic world like that.
Sure, a few decades of mismanagement and cheating on the accession criteria has nothing to do with Greece's current misery.
Still let's see who's most unhappy at the end of the day.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on June 26, 2016, 05:15:29 pm
I'll take it a step further and suggest that the major politicians and economists probably don't know the consequences either. At a time when the global economy is making a slow/uncertain/wobbly recovery it seemed reckless to consider a referendum.
Of course the exact loss of GDP is impossible to predict. However, I guess no serious economist would dare to predict a bright future in the short or mid term.
This is no excuse though for not informing at all what leaving the EU would mean. Heck, I feel that every other European was better informed than the typical Brit.

My concern for the UK is that we are an ageing population who aren't as good at manufacturing stuff as we used to be. In my opinion, the leave vote was reinforced by older people who still view the UK (and its future prospects) through rose tinted specs.
Well, really? This is why the industrial production in Britain went down? It's not because the Brits decided to earn their money with financial trickery and didn't invest in modern production processes in the last 50 years?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 26, 2016, 05:19:05 pm
:palm: :palm: :palm:  Is that what you class as "plenty of evidence".
WTF is it then? Is it OK to behave in this way?

Quote
Over 17,000,000 people disagreed with your opinion on the EU.  That does not make them racist.  You epitomise the Liberal Elite that is incredibly out-of-touch with the people they are meant to represent.
And 16,141,241 voters agreed. You are behaving as though the result were 99% to 1% not 51.9% to 48.1%

Not all the 17 (and almost a half) voters who backed Leave are racist, it would be madness to suggest that but the fact of increased clearly racial attacks citing the referendum result does not make me feel comfortable.

But what of immigration? - no I am not "out of touch"; it is clearly a sensitive issue even without overt racism.

But we failed to control non-EU immigration which is about half of all immigration. Why? there is a points system to ensure only those workers we need are allowed in.

Could it just be that we actually need these people?
Could it be that we will continue to do so even after leaving the EU?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 26, 2016, 05:22:24 pm
No, that is a concern of immigration. Concern about immigration != racism.
Funnily enough it seems that there is now plenty of evidence that there was not just "concern about immigration" but out and out racism behind the Leave vote.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-eu-referendum-racial-racism-abuse-hate-crime-reported-latest-leave-immigration-a7104191.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-eu-referendum-racial-racism-abuse-hate-crime-reported-latest-leave-immigration-a7104191.html)

The sad thing is that leaving the EU might not reduce immigration. It might even increase it if large numbers rush to "get in before the doors close".

It's also interesting that the Leave campaign started back peddling on some if its core claims almost as soon as the result was known.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/leave-campaign-rows-back-key-pledges-immigration-nhs-spending (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/leave-campaign-rows-back-key-pledges-immigration-nhs-spending)

I hope that we can make this work.
I can assure you that the vast majority of people who voted leave would be just as disgusted at that as you or I.

If the racists think that this was a mandate for them to pedal their hate they have another think coming.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 26, 2016, 05:35:01 pm
Well I voted leave ...well now we are out we have only ourselves to blame...The euro was the biggest fucking disaster ever... and had a British passport yet she was denied benefit so I sure hope migrants aren't getting a better deal than this.
What a surprise. I previously saw you as somebody from the top-3 PolCo guys/girls/trans/... of this forum, and in my simplification of the happening they al vote Remain.

And not a lot of people seem to realise that the Chinese put 100% import duty on everything they buy in so what are we playing at? No doubt somebody is gaining let me guess some big businessman that are importing this crap and then selling it to us for inflated prices that is why the government is weak on these things because big business speaks louder than those who elect them.
Sounds like you suddenly even prefer the self-proclaimed strong-negotiator that promises to make his country great again :-)

Actually 25% of the green party voted leave some of us do think for ourselves, some of those in ukip voted to remain beleive it or not. Now I am not talking about "making my country great again", I am talking about making the best possible future for us.

I cound't care less about your attitude towards me (heaven forbid i be seen to ban you for having a go at me) but you seem to be getting a bit hot under the collar in this thread. As you should know, as a rule we don't do politics on this forum for a reason, this is so big i guess we make an exception, but discussing politics should not be exchanged for "anything goes" I haven't forgotten some of your past posts - You've been warned!

Oh and what exactly is: top-3 PolCo guys/girls/trans ?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 26, 2016, 05:41:30 pm
:palm: :palm: :palm:  Is that what you class as "plenty of evidence".
WTF is it then? Is it OK to behave in this way?

Quote
Over 17,000,000 people disagreed with your opinion on the EU.  That does not make them racist.  You epitomise the Liberal Elite that is incredibly out-of-touch with the people they are meant to represent.
And 16,141,241 voters agreed. You are behaving as though the result were 99% to 1% not 51.9% to 48.1%

Not all the 17 (and almost a half) voters who backed Leave are racist, it would be madness to suggest that but the fact of increased clearly racial attacks citing the referendum result does not make me feel comfortable.

But what of immigration? - no I am not "out of touch"; it is clearly a sensitive issue even without overt racism.

But we failed to control non-EU immigration which is about half of all immigration. Why? there is a points system to ensure only those workers we need are allowed in.

Could it just be that we actually need these people?
Could it be that we will continue to do so even after leaving the EU?

No of course it is not acceptable to behave in that manner, don't be ridiculous.  That sort of shit is appalling.

What I meant (as I'm sure you know) is that it is also ridiculous to insinuate that 17.5M people who disagree with you are all nasty bigots based on 100 cases of "racism" (as a pedant I hate the conflation of xenophobia and racism) reported on social media.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 26, 2016, 05:43:43 pm
So I did and my observation is you constantly derail this thread,
You have merely observed what fits your ad hominem bullshit talk agenda. You like other figures look for easy stuff to get deliberately butt hurt on.
Quote
often with brainwashed comments particularly hateful towards Russia. You openly called Russia the enemy.
Well ,your reply is pretty brain dead but no, not russia, but Putin yes he's a dangerous individual behaving like a tsar now about creating a big presidential army! Had no idea you was such a Putin/Trump butt licker/apologists, but those often lurk in the shadows when one least expect it. Cant see you whine about forum user Aspis Russian /Putin comments? perhaps because we have the same view on Putin?
Quote
You also post seemingly funny pictures but in a context where they may be taken offensively by parts of the audience.
You are allowed to close your eyes when such pictures pops up, such as this one!
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/jOiggDpfyRc/hqdefault.jpg)
Quote
I think you do it deliberately to shape the reader's mind.
It never struct me that people on this forum are so stupid as you portray them to be it's actually possibly to bend their minds!
Thanks for the tip mate! You really came out as ""being supreme" everyone else!
Quote
What are you doing on this forum? Do you have an agenda? If not, my advice is the same as that of other people have given you - consume less propaganda and stop derailing this thread, which is otherwise is conducted in a civilized manner given the sensitivity of the topic being discussed.
What are you doing in this forum and in this thread? No one forces you to read it? Dont see you have contributed much to the debate.
Whats your agenda except for lame ad hominems? Propaganda is from friend Trump and Putin and some others, derailing has already
been tried out early on by the racist card players and even Hitler was mentioned i recall  where where you then and crying your crocodile tears?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: XynxNet on June 26, 2016, 05:44:59 pm
The EU is the [...] anti-democratic organisation.
I'am alway baffled by this argument.

Every EU citizen has two ways of representation.
EU parliament (http://europa.eu/about-eu/institutions-bodies/european-parliament/index_en.htm) (with represantatives you voted in) and council (http://europa.eu/about-eu/institutions-bodies/council-eu/index_en.htm#goto_1) which consists of the government represantatives of each country (democratically elected according to your country's rules). Each of these two bodies can veto every decision.

So please talk to your democratically elected government or your member of eu parialament, if you feel misrepresented. It's not some anonymous eu bureaucrat making those decisions, but people you/we voted in. ;)

How EU decisions are made. (http://europa.eu/eu-law/decision-making/procedures/index_en.htm)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Fraser on June 26, 2016, 05:45:59 pm
OK, this thread is starting to head where I feared it might, things getting bitchy.

OK, how about floating blue sky thinking ideas on correcting the situation in the EU rather than nit picking over the BREXIT referendum.

For starters, why did an intelligent country decide to 'risk all' and leave the EU ? What on earth could cause such a sea change in public opinion within a country. This was not a few peeved MEP's here, it was half of the flipping country. We ARE NOT racists or isolationists so those options is shelved OK?

From my understanding of the situation, the following occurred.....

1. The U.K. Joined with its friends in Europe in a Common Market. Nothing bad about that right ?
2. Over the years the Common Market evolved into the EU and there was a desire for all members to become one big happy family with a common currency and common central 'Government'. AKA a superstate. Ooooops this is not what the UK signed up to or want so they decline the EURO and resist central Governance.
3. The U.K. Holds discussions with the EU and is basically told to get with the program and become fully integrated into the EU. This creates a core difference of opinion between the UK and the EU leadership.
4. Instead of being good Diplomats and smoothing ruffled feathers, the EU leadership chose to get dictatorial and play hard ball with the U.K. This was not the action of a friendly EU leadership wishing to retain the UK within its ranks. Some members of the EU leadership come across as positively hostile to the UK.
5. The U.K. Is a very reserved and traditional country that does not wish to be absorbed into a Superstate. It does not mind a close friendship and trade with the EU but it still wants its independence. Is that so wrong provided it contributes to the EU ?  The EU claim to want the UK in their project yet remain hostile at meetings that could have reduced UK fears of absorption into the 'collective'.
6. After many years of various disagreements with the EU,the U.K. Government offer their population a Referendum on EU membership. The EU leadership realises the potential nightmare that could unfold if the UK were to leave their project and move to assess the likelihood of such occurring. The risk analysis team believe the UK is not serious about leaving so no significant action is recommended.
7. Cameron enters into negotiations with the EU leadership in the hope of obtaining enough reform within the EU to keep his countries population content to stay within the EU. Cameron is treated with disdain and the EU leadership make no real effort to allay the fears that Cameron presents and no meaningful reassurances for the UK come out of the talk. Many in the UK population turn more hostile towards the EU leadership and suspect they have anterior motives for their 'hard ball' tactics. BREXIT sees a surge in support.
8. The EU leadership watch the developing situation in the U.K. But still believe the U.K. Population will not have the guts to vote to leave. There is a level of arrogance in the EU leadership that is hard to miss or understand. They act like they cannot be resisted or ignored.
9. The U.K holds its referendum and the population are so concerned about the EU's apparent contempt for the UK and its wishes, that more than half the country vote to leave. A nightmare for the EU leadership comes to pass and they were unprepared.
10. Much rhetoric follows. What a mess.

Could this not have all been avoided if there were better people at the top of the EU who were better Diplomats and able to negotiate without insulting their adversaries ? I believe so.

The EU leadership played into the hands of those in the UK who said that the EU did not have our best interests at heart.

BIG MISTAKE.

The U.K. Made its position clear and were ignored. Do not blame us for voting to leave what we see as a hostile organisation.

So much more could have been done to prevent this.

Fraser

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 26, 2016, 05:47:35 pm
Scottish nationalists pose brexit block from parliament

Scottish chief minister, Nicola Sturgeon, said the Scottish Parliament could block the exit of the UK EU.

https://www.rt.com/uk/348432-sturgeon-england-scotland-border/ (https://www.rt.com/uk/348432-sturgeon-england-scotland-border/)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 26, 2016, 05:51:38 pm
Scottish nationalists pose brexit block from parliament

Scottish chief minister, Nicola Sturgeon, said the Scottish Parliament could block the exit of the UK EU.

https://www.rt.com/uk/348432-sturgeon-england-scotland-border/ (https://www.rt.com/uk/348432-sturgeon-england-scotland-border/)

You are using RT as a source ?

Realistically it is NOT going to happen. I.e. They will NOT be able to block it.

The whole of the UK has voted.

Everyone, including them, need to abide by the majority.

They already (somewhat recently) voted to STAY in the UK. So they have to abide by their decisions.

It was a UK wide vote (Brexit), NOT separate cities/countries.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on June 26, 2016, 05:53:42 pm
MT,

I am sad that you resorted to posting an image of the pond life that is Saville. Poor taste mate. He does not represent what it is to be British or anything about our culture. He is hated throughout the UK for what he did. No one is defending his actions. Every country has child molesters, he was sadly in a unique position to take advantage of celebrity and avoid detection.

Fraser

But of course he was extravagantly loved for 40 years.    And he *boasted*  during those years and in his books how he took advantage of young female fans (without actually mentioning the bedbound and 10 year old ones).   And anyone who criticised him was vilified by the tabloid press, as an intellectual snob, and as having no sense of fun.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 26, 2016, 05:56:29 pm
Can this thread calm down before I lock it! sounds like the referendum campaign all over again - Bollocks
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Fraser on June 26, 2016, 06:00:02 pm
What could be done to resolve this situation?

Well if the EU really wanted the UK to stay and return stability to the project they could come out and publicly say they want to work with the U.K. To address the concerns of over half its population. Maybe not all concerns can be addressed, but it is far better than the current and somewhat childish 'attitude' that we are witnessing from some EU leaders.

The U.K. Government could then propose another option for the UK and hold another referendum. I believe the UK would likely vote to stay if the EU leadership were shown to be less dictatorial and hostile towards the UK and its people.

It ain't over until the fat lady sings :)

With regards to Scotland and a Veto...... I think not. Their veto only applies to minor EU related proposals and nothing as major as a departure from the EU.

Parliament can vote to not leave the EU though. We may yet see that happen. The EU leadership could help by being more friendly though !

The benefits of this action would be stability in World markets and hopefully a happy EU 'family'

At the end of the day, the British 'Lion' has roared and people have realised that we are really pi**ed off with the EU leadership. If the UK is really welcome in the EU, the 'Big Cat' can be calmed !

Fraser


Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 26, 2016, 06:02:39 pm
What could be done to resolve this situation?

Well if the EU really wanted the UK to stay and return stability to the project they could come out and publicly say they want to work with the U.K. To address the concerns of over half its population. Maybe not all concerns can be addressed, but it is far better than the current and somewhat childish 'attitude' that we are witnessing from some EU leaders.

The U.K. Government could then propose another option for the UK any hold another referendum. I believe the UK would likely vote to stay if the EU leadership were shown to be less dictatorial and hostile towards the UK and its people.

It ain't over until the fat lady sings :)

With regards to Scotland and a Veto...... I think not. Their veto only applies to minor EU related proposals and nothing as major as a departure from the EU.

Parliament can vote to not leave the EU though. We may yet see that happen. The EU leadership could help by being more friendly though !

The benefits of this action would be stability in World markets and hopefully a happy EU 'family'

At the end of the day, the British 'Lion' has roared and people have realised that we are recalled pi**ed off with the EU leadership. If the UK is really welcome in the EU, the 'Big Cat' can be calmed !

Fraser




To be fair a lot of the out vote was just racist. I doubt many of the outers had even heared of TTIP
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 26, 2016, 06:03:28 pm
Scottish nationalists pose brexit block from parliament

Scottish chief minister, Nicola Sturgeon, said the Scottish Parliament could block the exit of the UK EU.

https://www.rt.com/uk/348432-sturgeon-england-scotland-border/ (https://www.rt.com/uk/348432-sturgeon-england-scotland-border/)

You are using RT as a source ?


Realistically it is NOT going to happen. I.e. They will NOT be able to block it.

The whole of the UK has voted.

Everyone, including them, need to abide by the majority.

They already (somewhat recently) voted to STAY in the UK. So they have to abide by their decisions.

It was a UK wide vote (Brexit), NOT separate cities/countries.

I  too see other media as  Libertaddigital a  anti-Putin newspaper
http://www.libertaddigital.com/internacional/europa/2016-06-26/los-nacionalistas-escoceses-plantean-bloquear-el-brexit-desde-su-parlamento-1276577152/ (http://www.libertaddigital.com/internacional/europa/2016-06-26/los-nacionalistas-escoceses-plantean-bloquear-el-brexit-desde-su-parlamento-1276577152/)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 26, 2016, 06:05:31 pm
What could be done to resolve this situation?

Well if the EU really wanted the UK to stay and return stability to the project they could come out and publicly say they want to work with the U.K. To address the concerns of over half its population. Maybe not all concerns can be addressed, but it is far better than the current and somewhat childish 'attitude' that we are witnessing from some EU leaders.

The U.K. Government could then propose another option for the UK and hold another referendum. I believe the UK would likely vote to stay if the EU leadership were shown to be less dictatorial and hostile towards the UK and its people.

It ain't over until the fat lady sings :)

With regards to Scotland and a Veto...... I think not. Their veto only applies to minor EU related proposals and nothing as major as a departure from the EU.

Parliament can vote to not leave the EU though. We may yet see that happen. The EU leadership could help by being more friendly though !

The benefits of this action would be stability in World markets and hopefully a happy EU 'family'

At the end of the day, the British 'Lion' has roared and people have realised that we are recalled pi**ed off with the EU leadership. If the UK is really welcome in the EU, the 'Big Cat' can be calmed !

Fraser


Investigating possible fraud in the request for a new referendum

The press has reported that there are many signatories from foreign countries such as North Korea.

http://www.libertaddigital.com/internacional/europa/2016-06-26/investigan-posible-fraude-en-la-peticion-de-un-nuevo-referendum-1276577151/ (http://www.libertaddigital.com/internacional/europa/2016-06-26/investigan-posible-fraude-en-la-peticion-de-un-nuevo-referendum-1276577151/)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 26, 2016, 06:06:12 pm
I  too see other media as  Libertaddigital a  anti-Putin newspaper
http://www.libertaddigital.com/internacional/europa/2016-06-26/los-nacionalistas-escoceses-plantean-bloquear-el-brexit-desde-su-parlamento-1276577152/ (http://www.libertaddigital.com/internacional/europa/2016-06-26/los-nacionalistas-escoceses-plantean-bloquear-el-brexit-desde-su-parlamento-1276577152/)

I have seen the story about it on the BBC, and agree the basic story is VALID.

But worry about RT, as I think I have heard rumors that it is Russian and potentially a propaganda machine. I.e. Can't necessarily be trusted.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 26, 2016, 06:10:53 pm
Investigating possible fraud in the request for a new referendum

The press has reported that there are many signatories from foreign countries such as North Korea.

http://www.libertaddigital.com/internacional/europa/2016-06-26/investigan-posible-fraude-en-la-peticion-de-un-nuevo-referendum-1276577151/ (http://www.libertaddigital.com/internacional/europa/2016-06-26/investigan-posible-fraude-en-la-peticion-de-un-nuevo-referendum-1276577151/)

The basic concept was SILLY anyway.
If 25,000,000 in the UK voted for OptionA

And 20,000,000 in the UK voted for OptionB
OptionA wins the majority.

In the next few days, you could easily have up to 20,000,000 people proposing a 2nd vote and/or referendum.

But it is getting silly. The vote has officially happened, and people need to accept the result and move on.
It is obvious that there could be many millions of unhappy voters (as regards Brexit) in the UK, since they were in a minority.

But such is life!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 26, 2016, 06:11:27 pm
Scottish nationalists pose brexit block from parliament

Scottish chief minister, Nicola Sturgeon, said the Scottish Parliament could block the exit of the UK EU.

https://www.rt.com/uk/348432-sturgeon-england-scotland-border/ (https://www.rt.com/uk/348432-sturgeon-england-scotland-border/)

Haha, best of luck with that one, Sturge!  She is like a spoilt child, you lost your own referendum two years ago, Nic!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 26, 2016, 06:13:19 pm
Funnily enough it seems that there is now plenty of evidence that there was not just "concern about immigration" but out and out racism behind the Leave vote.

What is racism any way? The belief that groups of people with a common phenotype and geographic origin can have genetically determined predispositions which make them less able to contribute to certain types of societies than others? (Potentially from inbreeding.)

Or is racism the kind of mindset which would even ask the question and is the only way to be non racist to never even allow such to be countenanced? Rhetorical question of course, it's the latter and I have already exposed myself as a racist :/

Quote
The sad thing is that leaving the EU might not reduce immigration. It might even increase it if large numbers rush to "get in before the doors close".

Only from the EU and only the people who can hold a steady job would have much benefit from it, because the rest would be deported after a while. This final boost of selective immigration would help the post brexit UK economy. Just like the rest of the high employment rate eastern European immigrants were a boon.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 26, 2016, 06:13:25 pm
To be fair a lot of the out vote was just racist. I doubt many of the outers had even heared of TTIP

"a lot"?  Would you care to quantify that please?  This is an engineering forum after all.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 26, 2016, 06:14:56 pm
I  too see other media as  Libertaddigital a  anti-Putin newspaper
http://www.libertaddigital.com/internacional/europa/2016-06-26/los-nacionalistas-escoceses-plantean-bloquear-el-brexit-desde-su-parlamento-1276577152/ (http://www.libertaddigital.com/internacional/europa/2016-06-26/los-nacionalistas-escoceses-plantean-bloquear-el-brexit-desde-su-parlamento-1276577152/)

I have seen the story about it on the BBC, and agree the basic story is VALID.

But worry about RT, as I think I have heard rumors that it is Russian and potentially a propaganda machine. I.e. Can't necessarily be trusted.
RT is indeed a Putin machine.
But the Putin propaganda apparatus is mainly for internal use to keep the people in order, most outside Russia just chuckles when they try to export it.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 26, 2016, 06:19:16 pm

For starters, why did an intelligent country decide to 'risk all' and leave the EU ? What on earth could cause such a sea change in public opinion within a country. This was not a few peeved MEP's here, it was half of the flipping country. We ARE NOT racists or isolationists so those options is shelved OK?


You know how many debt have the UK, almost 90%

http://www.datosmacro.com/deuda (http://www.datosmacro.com/deuda)

What do you happen if the world owner order their sheepdogs that don't borrow any pound to UK?

They are very disappointed with you , and when the mafia bosses are angry,are very dangerous
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 26, 2016, 06:20:13 pm
RT is indeed a Putin machine.
But the Putin propaganda apparatus is mainly for internal use to keep the people in order, most outside Russia just chuckles when they try to export it.
Thanks for the clarification.
Sometimes (but very rarely), people have linked to it (or similar), because they (the Russians), have invented some super-duper mega new weapon. With phenomenal destructive powers, and they are boasting about it on one of these sources.
Then technical people, tear it to pieces and say it is complete nonsense, and couldn't work like that in a million years.
These days, North Korea sometimes takes the biscuit/lead, in such claims.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 26, 2016, 06:21:25 pm
To be fair a lot of the out vote was just racist. I doubt many of the outers had even heared of TTIP

"a lot"?  Would you care to quantify that please?  This is an engineering forum after all.



I can't quantify, but most times i have heared from someone about leaving the EU it was because of immigration with many being very derogatory about non british people. I'm not in a position to poll the whole country myself. The fact is if people got off their asses they could do all of those low skilled jobs that immigrants do but no one in their right mind would employ a british worker over say a polish person. The only good and conciencus assembler we have on the shop floor at work is polish and he is more qualified in poland than anyone else. I came back to the UK at 24 with no valid UK qualifications, yet i have a job, granted poorly paid but i work as a design engineer and all I'm qualified to do is stack shelves, jobs are there, but many people can't be assed to work and usually it is these that are rascist and regard immigration as the root of all evil.

Many of us had sound reasons for voting out. But no one will ever convince me that the out campaign won because people voted with their heads. the majority of the out vote in my opinion was based on "fuck those foreigners stealing the jobs we can't be arsed to do".
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 26, 2016, 06:24:36 pm
What do you happen if the world owner order their sheepdogs that don't borrow any pound to UK?

Print money, unlike the Greeks they own the printing press for their debts. They can inflate it away.

There are costs to doing so, but those costs can be lower than repaying it without inflation.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 26, 2016, 06:28:44 pm
Print money, unlike the Greeks they own the printing press for their debts. They can inflate it away.

There are costs to doing so, but those costs can be lower than repaying it without inflation.

It is a bit like "closed loop" vs "open loop".

Printing money/inflation (closed loop), causes reasonably quick corrections, so that things sort of are automatically controlled.

But being tied to the Euro (open loop), means that if things go very badly wrong, the costs can keep on skyrocketing (hence open loop), since there are only limited mechanisms to rein in the excessive spending/borrowing etc. Until things go really REALLY bad! (E.g. Greece).
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on June 26, 2016, 06:29:04 pm
So please talk to your democratically elected government
In my country the electorate does not elect the government - it elects the parliament. Furthermore, the government is supposedly executive, not legislative. I do agree with our British friends that there is indeed a democratic problem.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 26, 2016, 06:31:33 pm
What do you happen if the world owner order their sheepdogs that don't borrow any pound to UK?

Print money, unlike the Greeks they own the printing press for their debts. They can inflate it away.

There are costs to doing so, but those costs can be lower than repaying it without inflation.

They will have a  billet 1 Million pounds  for buying the bread as the Republic of Weimar(German 1919-1933) or the Regim Mugabe (Zimbaue).

BRILLANT SOLUTION
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 26, 2016, 06:36:11 pm
They will have a  billet 1 Million pounds  for buying the bread as the Republic of Weimar(German 1919-1933) or the Regim Mugabe (Zimbaue).

BRILLANT SOLUTION

So are you saying that Zimbabwe going bust, would have been much better if they had used the Euros. Then as well as Zimbabwe going bust, the whole of the EU (ones that use the Euro), also go bust as well ?

At least only the single/bad country (which very badly managed the situation), goes bankrupt, NOT a huge pile of other countries and/or rich countries are forced to bail them out.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 26, 2016, 06:38:43 pm
They will have a  billet 1 Million pounds  for buying the bread as the Republic of Weimar(German 1919-1933) or the Regim Mugabe (Zimbaue).

The Weimar republic had a persistent current account deficit in gold, you can't print to fix that. Mugabe had a massively oversized government expenditure, you can't print to fix that either.

A better recent example is Abenomics. You might have heard recently what a failure it has been because it has reduced real Japanese wages, what you won't have heard is that it brought Japan back into trade balance (the supposed failure and the latter fact are intimately connected by the way). This is how inflation can help in a properly run nation, it returns competitiveness by reducing consumption of foreign goods.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Jeroen3 on June 26, 2016, 06:40:34 pm
Meanwhile in the noise of Brexit. They have come up with an structure to vaporise even more civil money!
http://ec.europa.eu/finance/pensions/iorp/index_en.htm (http://ec.europa.eu/finance/pensions/iorp/index_en.htm)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 26, 2016, 06:42:27 pm
Meanwhile in the noise of Brexit. They have come up with an structure to vaporise even more civil money!
http://ec.europa.eu/finance/pensions/iorp/index_en.htm (http://ec.europa.eu/finance/pensions/iorp/index_en.htm)

and the page throws up an invitation to a questionare that takes you away from the page you were about to read. what a cunning plan.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 26, 2016, 06:43:35 pm
The EU is the [...] anti-democratic organisation.
I'am alway baffled by this argument.

Every EU citizen has two ways of representation.
EU parliament (http://europa.eu/about-eu/institutions-bodies/european-parliament/index_en.htm) (with represantatives you voted in) and council (http://europa.eu/about-eu/institutions-bodies/council-eu/index_en.htm#goto_1) which consists of the government represantatives of each country (democratically elected according to your country's rules). Each of these two bodies can veto every decision.

So please talk to your democratically elected government or your member of eu parialament, if you feel misrepresented. It's not some anonymous eu bureaucrat making those decisions, but people you/we voted in. ;)

How EU decisions are made. (http://europa.eu/eu-law/decision-making/procedures/index_en.htm)

Except arguably the most powerful part of the EU which you fail to mention is unelected, unaccountable Commission.

I'll refer your response of "they're just a civil service" to my previous comment.

Is the British civil service the only body able to propose laws? No. That is the job of our parliament.
Does the British civil service have agenda-setting powers? No. That is the job of our government.

So the European Commission, who you say are just a civil service, actually have the powers of our government and parliament. While the European parliament have rubber-stamping powers for those laws proposed by the commission. Now that's democracy!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Fraser on June 26, 2016, 06:48:27 pm
You know the more I think about it, the more I wish my Government and our Diplomats engage with our European friends to see if they can come up with a workable solution to this situation. Some may say, why bother....let the UK leave, but I hope others are more positive and can see that the UK does have a good effect on the EU project and is worth negotiating with.

Sadly I have to come back to certain high ranking persons in the EU leadership who, to be honest, do not seem to be fit for the position. Being divisive rather than a catalyst for agreements.

The daft thing is that if the UK leaves, I personally will likely be better off as my old employer will need people with my skills to support their newly invigorated Diplomatic Corps :)  Sad but true. At one point we questioned the need for Embassies in Europe, if we leave, they will not only be essential, but likely increased in capability.

Maybe I should contact my old boss to see if he wants my skill-set any time soon :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 26, 2016, 06:49:01 pm
Meanwhile in the noise of Brexit. They have come up with an structure to vaporise even more civil money!
http://ec.europa.eu/finance/pensions/iorp/index_en.htm (http://ec.europa.eu/finance/pensions/iorp/index_en.htm)

Oh joy, there go our solvency rules ... they've already been gutted as is, but the financial industry would like to see them gutted far further. Easier to make money when you can just piledrive them into bankruptcy and have government pick up the tab.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 26, 2016, 07:00:17 pm
No of course it is not acceptable to behave in that manner, don't be ridiculous.  That sort of shit is appalling.

What I meant (as I'm sure you know) is that it is also ridiculous to insinuate that 17.5M people who disagree with you are all nasty bigots based on 100 cases of "racism" (as a pedant I hate the conflation of xenophobia and racism) reported on social media.
No I did not wish to imply that all 17.5M Leave voters are racist.

And I accept your point that Twitter is not exactly a reliable source, nonetheless I am not comfortable with the reports.

I do, however, take some exception to being called out of touch and an apologist for the political elite.

It seems to me to be more out of touch to think that we can, or should, aim to keep Britain "racially pure" and close our borders, and the most likely candidate for PM at present - Boris Johnson - being a product of Eaton and Cambridge is not exactly breaking the mould politically.

I also wonder exactly how many of the leave voters actually did so because they genuinely felt that the EU is run by a liberal elite which is out of touch and how many did so because they swallowed the Leave campaign rhetoric on immigration and the  NHS - rhetoric which they now seem to be trying to distance themselves from.

Had I voted leave I would have done so because I think that the inherent tensions in the EU will eventually blow it apart - monetary union amongst a set of economies as disparate as those of Europe without fiscal union is doomed. A common fiscal policy without centralised government policy is also doomed to fail. But common government is a step to far at the moment even for the core nations of the EU and I think it will remain so.

I was sympathetic to the argument that it is better for the UK to pull out now and suffer a short term downside so as to be in a stronger position - and more isolated from the fall out - should the Euro project fail.

However there existed the catch-22 that the Euro project might be more likely to fail in the short term, before we had recovered from pulling out, if we did pull out. Europe imploding while we are trying to sort out the impact on our own economy from pulling out might be fatal. So I concluded tat the risk in the short and medium term (say the next 25-30 years, probably my lifetime) was too great. I also concluded that the Leave campaign were a bunch of lying *******s.

Long term I do not know, but I'm not sure it is worth trying to figure out is best on a 30 year time-scale when politicians have such short attention spans.

The trouble with the EU is that it has consisted of a series of small steps in favour of increasing the openness of the "common market" which make sense in isolation but not when you examine them overall.

The question now is what we do and how we form our on-going relationship with the EU. Membership of the EEA would be the least upheaval but is not really compatible with the stated aims of the Leave campaign. We almost certainly won't be able to follow the Swiss model (as noted previously the EU would prefer that the Swiss stop following the Swiss model). It remains to be seen whether the EU feel that our trade is sufficiently valuable to allow us tariff free access to the EEA without also having to accept free movement of labour, we will need good negotiators.

It also saddens me that we have saddled ourselves with the Herculean effort of sorting all this out when there are so many other problems that need urgent work - (the NHS, housing, schools, rebuilding manufacturing, re-structuring education etc). Why could we not have addressed ourselves to those issues rather than blaming them all on membership of the EU.



Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Fraser on June 26, 2016, 07:00:23 pm
On the topic of the EU structure, the BBC aired a superb program hosted Jeremy Paxman. It showed the various buildings and the roles they played in the EU decision making and operational processes.

From that program I took away the fact that our elected MEP's debate proposed new EU rules and regulations BUT only if the EU Commissioners decide to send such down to the MEP's for debate !

From what I saw, the EU Commissioners comprise representatives of each member country. One for each. These individuals are selected by the each countries Government. What gets scary is that major decisions are made by the Commissioners without the presence of the countries PM or MEP's. Effectively a chamber of few individuals making massive decisions that effect 28 countries. That really does not seem like a great decision making structure to me !

Fraser
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 26, 2016, 07:07:43 pm
They don't even have a formal right of amendment.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 26, 2016, 07:10:54 pm
From what I saw, the EU Commissioners comprise representatives of each member country. One for each. These individuals are selected by the each countries Government. What gets scary is that major decisions are made by the Commissioners without the presence of the countries PM or MEP's. Effectively a chamber of few individuals making massive decisions that effect 28 countries. That really does not seem like a great decision making structure to me !
Not that I necessarily approve but it sounds like an excellent decision making structure.

As in a structure that can actually make decisions. Otherwise getting 28 countries to agree anything must be like herding cats.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 26, 2016, 07:12:12 pm
Herding cats is easier!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: KJDS on June 26, 2016, 07:14:19 pm
From what I saw, the EU Commissioners comprise representatives of each member country. One for each. These individuals are selected by the each countries Government. What gets scary is that major decisions are made by the Commissioners without the presence of the countries PM or MEP's. Effectively a chamber of few individuals making massive decisions that effect 28 countries. That really does not seem like a great decision making structure to me !
Not that I necessarily approve but it sounds like an excellent decision making structure.

As in a structure that can actually make decisions. Otherwise getting 28 countries to agree anything must be like herding cats.

The best form of government is a benign dictatorship by someone sufficiently wise.

The real problem with that is that dictators are rarely benign and tend to have a very idealized view of their own talent to ego ratio.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Nauris on June 26, 2016, 07:20:55 pm

The fact is if people got off their asses they could do all of those low skilled jobs that immigrants do but no one in their right mind would employ a british worker over say a polish person. The only good and conciencus assembler we have on the shop floor at work is polish and he is more qualified in poland than anyone else.
Well, if all polish were send home then the employer wouldn't have the choice but employ british.

Thinking about it,
if immigrant is less skillfull than you are then he is usefull or at most an annoyance.
In contrast, if he is more skilled than you are then he is threat.

To me limiting immigration looks like result of quite rational thinking.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 26, 2016, 07:23:08 pm
From what I saw, the EU Commissioners comprise representatives of each member country. One for each. These individuals are selected by the each countries Government. What gets scary is that major decisions are made by the Commissioners without the presence of the countries PM or MEP's. Effectively a chamber of few individuals making massive decisions that effect 28 countries. That really does not seem like a great decision making structure to me !
So the European parliament should debate about how many farts the pigs from farmer John may produce each day? At some point you need a sifting process to determine what is important and less important. The purpose of the commission is to consult national governments and interested parties to see where laws and regulations need additions and fixing. Who gets a chair in the commission is ofcourse influenced by who you vote for but as a country you can't have some half assed dimwit with little or no political experience in such an important position.

Better get information from the source than a mockumentary:
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/2014-2019_en
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 26, 2016, 07:31:20 pm
What always ends up happening in contentious issues is the commission putting their proposal on the table and going, well this is going to be it ... vote it in or we will just have no homogenized legislation on it for four more years, take it or leave it.

The right of amendment creates a balance of power, it can be abused ... but then obviously so can the absence of that balance.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 26, 2016, 07:32:39 pm
Well, if all polish were send home ....
Please quote a credible source for any threat of law abiding people who arrived in the UK legally being deported.

This will not happen.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 26, 2016, 07:44:00 pm
RT is indeed a Putin machine.
But the Putin propaganda apparatus is mainly for internal use to keep the people in order, most outside Russia just chuckles when they try to export it.
Thanks for the clarification.
Sometimes (but very rarely), people have linked to it (or similar), because they (the Russians), have invented some super-duper mega new weapon. With phenomenal destructive powers, and they are boasting about it on one of these sources.
Then technical people, tear it to pieces and say it is complete nonsense, and couldn't work like that in a million years.
These days, North Korea sometimes takes the biscuit/lead, in such claims.

The sad thing is that Putin could have been one of the greatest reformators, not only for Russians, but of all time, but he blow'ed it as the KGB formed thug he is. Putin is not worried by external forces, he has way bigger problems internally, Caucasus extremists, and his own many security apparatus within the government battling for his personal attention. Even good ol' Gorbatjoff is complaining Putin surrounds him self with mates from childhood! Putin is way way politically sharper then the Duck and will use him as a pillow!

WARNING! FOLLOWING PICTURE MIGHT CONTAIN POOR TASTE AND MAKE YOU FEEL OFFENDED AND MIND BENDED
ACCORDING TO EEVBLOG USERS BUD AND FRASER! IF SO COMPLAINTS BE FILED TO THE EU COMMISSIONAIRE OF PUBLIC OFFENCES!


(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/b6/d3/5d/b6d35da14495df3af92f7e5b22298ed6.jpg)

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 26, 2016, 07:49:23 pm
The fact is if people got off their asses they could do all of those low skilled jobs that immigrants do but no one in their right mind would employ a british worker over say a polish person. The only good and conciencus assembler we have on the shop floor at work is polish and he is more qualified in poland than anyone else.
Well, if all polish were send home then the employer wouldn't have the choice but employ british.
In that case the employer is likely to move to Poland because they can't find the necessary skilled and motivated employees. The problem is not the amount of people but the level of education and or motivation.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 26, 2016, 07:55:40 pm
The sad thing is that Putin could have been one of the greatest reformators, not only for Russians, but of all time, but he blow'ed it as the KGB formed thug he is. Putin is not worried by external forces, he has way bigger problems internally, Caucasus extremists, and his own many security apparatus within the government battling for his personal attention. Even good ol' Gorbatjoff is complaining Putin surrounds him self with mates from childhood! Putin is way way politically sharper then the Duck and will use him as a pillow!

One of my worries about the brexit, is that we are in partly-unsettled times, and it is NOT totally unthinkable that war(s) could break out. I thought that Putin was EXTREMELY reckless with Ukraine and taking Crimea.
If significant war(s) do break out, I felt that the situation would be better and more stable if the UK was still part of the EU.

E.g. when Turkey somewhat recently shot down Russian war plane(s), allegedly "just within" their borders.

So from purely a peace and security point of view, remain was probably (but not NECESSARILY) the safest option, in my opinion.

On the other hand, remaining might have caused bad tensions, later on, which could have also led to instability. So maybe leave was best.

I don't know. Maybe now is NOT the safest of times, to be exiting the EU, if Syria and/or North Korea and/or Russia etc starts messing around too much.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 26, 2016, 07:58:43 pm
I don't know. Maybe now is NOT the safest of times, to be exiting the EU, if Syria and/or North Korea and/or Russia etc starts messing around too much.
As others wrote: the UK didn't leave Nato which is a far bigger millitary pact.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 26, 2016, 08:02:38 pm
I don't know. Maybe now is NOT the safest of times, to be exiting the EU, if Syria and/or North Korea and/or Russia etc starts messing around too much.
As others wrote: the UK didn't leave Nato which is a far bigger millitary pact.

Yes, it is good that we still have NATO.

But it would be better still (if we end up in a near or actual war situation), if we got on as well, as we have during the "golden" EU era, which seems to be gradually ending, now.
E.g. Powerful Sanctions are via the EU/US/Etc, rather than NATO.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 26, 2016, 08:05:58 pm

The fact is if people got off their asses they could do all of those low skilled jobs that immigrants do but no one in their right mind would employ a british worker over say a polish person. The only good and conciencus assembler we have on the shop floor at work is polish and he is more qualified in poland than anyone else.
Well, if all polish were send home then the employer wouldn't have the choice but employ british.

Thinking about it,
if immigrant is less skillfull than you are then he is usefull or at most an annoyance.
In contrast, if he is more skilled than you are then he is threat.

To me limiting immigration looks like result of quite rational thinking.


We do need to limit immigration. but equally we need to train our own workforce and expect people to work. where I work it seems that the less you do the better you get on, so i decided to start taking it easy. As soon as i sarted taking it easy instead of rushing around in circles I started getting asked "if I had time to do that", "when would i get timeto to that" and "thank you for doing that". On the other hand without foreign nurses we are scrwwed while the government continue to cut funding to trainng. Everything here is made to be tick box so that unskilled people can do stuff.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 26, 2016, 08:08:43 pm
The fact is if people got off their asses they could do all of those low skilled jobs that immigrants do but no one in their right mind would employ a british worker over say a polish person. The only good and conciencus assembler we have on the shop floor at work is polish and he is more qualified in poland than anyone else.
Well, if all polish were send home then the employer wouldn't have the choice but employ british.
In that case the employer is likely to move to Poland because they can't find the necessary skilled and motivated employees. The problem is not the amount of people but the level of education and or motivation.

Correct, As I have said before many times. As someone with no qualifications i have often had to put right problems made by people more qualified than me or come up with solutions for them. The problem with this country is that we have stopped doing qualifications and instead have attendance certificates.....
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Nauris on June 26, 2016, 08:16:32 pm
Well, if all polish were send home then the employer wouldn't have the choice but employ british.
In that case the employer is likely to move to Poland because they can't find the necessary skilled and motivated employees. The problem is not the amount of people but the level of education and or motivation.
Long time ago UK cars were imported here and we had the saying that when british workers work day ends he takes his wooden club with him and goes sleeping in a cave.

But british industry is already gone and can't move construction workers, burger flippers and such so it is rational for low skill british to try limit immigration as that improves their position.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: G0HZU on June 26, 2016, 08:18:41 pm
I'll take it a step further and suggest that the major politicians and economists probably don't know the consequences either. At a time when the global economy is making a slow/uncertain/wobbly recovery it seemed reckless to consider a referendum.
Of course the exact loss of GDP is impossible to predict. However, I guess no serious economist would dare to predict a bright future in the short or mid term.
This is no excuse though for not informing at all what leaving the EU would mean. Heck, I feel that every other European was better informed than the typical Brit.

My concern for the UK is that we are an ageing population who aren't as good at manufacturing stuff as we used to be. In my opinion, the leave vote was reinforced by older people who still view the UK (and its future prospects) through rose tinted specs.
Well, really? This is why the industrial production in Britain went down? It's not because the Brits decided to earn their money with financial trickery and didn't invest in modern production processes in the last 50 years?

Just to clarify, I didn't mean to imply we are getting bad at making things just because the population is ageing. Our manufacturing capabilities have been reduced alarmingly for various reasons and on top of this the population has an increasing proportion of old people that will require care/support.

It doesn't look good IMO.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 26, 2016, 08:30:20 pm


To me limiting immigration looks like result of quite rational thinking.

Not just limiting the numbers but also choosing the ones that bring more merit to your country.

That's the rational thing to do.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: KJDS on June 26, 2016, 08:33:29 pm
I'll take it a step further and suggest that the major politicians and economists probably don't know the consequences either. At a time when the global economy is making a slow/uncertain/wobbly recovery it seemed reckless to consider a referendum.
Of course the exact loss of GDP is impossible to predict. However, I guess no serious economist would dare to predict a bright future in the short or mid term.
This is no excuse though for not informing at all what leaving the EU would mean. Heck, I feel that every other European was better informed than the typical Brit.

My concern for the UK is that we are an ageing population who aren't as good at manufacturing stuff as we used to be. In my opinion, the leave vote was reinforced by older people who still view the UK (and its future prospects) through rose tinted specs.
Well, really? This is why the industrial production in Britain went down? It's not because the Brits decided to earn their money with financial trickery and didn't invest in modern production processes in the last 50 years?

Just to clarify, I didn't mean to imply we are getting bad at making things just because the population is ageing. Our manufacturing capabilities have been reduced alarmingly for various reasons and on top of this the population has an increasing proportion of old people that will require care/support.

It doesn't look good IMO.

It's not our capability that has been reduced, but our capacity
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 26, 2016, 08:34:26 pm
I'll take it a step further and suggest that the major politicians and economists probably don't know the consequences either. At a time when the global economy is making a slow/uncertain/wobbly recovery it seemed reckless to consider a referendum.
Of course the exact loss of GDP is impossible to predict. However, I guess no serious economist would dare to predict a bright future in the short or mid term.
This is no excuse though for not informing at all what leaving the EU would mean. Heck, I feel that every other European was better informed than the typical Brit.

My concern for the UK is that we are an ageing population who aren't as good at manufacturing stuff as we used to be. In my opinion, the leave vote was reinforced by older people who still view the UK (and its future prospects) through rose tinted specs.
Well, really? This is why the industrial production in Britain went down? It's not because the Brits decided to earn their money with financial trickery and didn't invest in modern production processes in the last 50 years?

Just to clarify, I didn't mean to imply we are getting bad at making things just because the population is ageing. Our manufacturing capabilities have been reduced alarmingly for various reasons and on top of this the population has an increasing proportion of old people that will require care/support.

It doesn't look good IMO.

It's not our capability that has been reduced, but our capacity

No not that either, willingless, ability
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Fraser on June 26, 2016, 08:41:52 pm
Well I thank all participants in this thread for sharing their thoughts...even MT !

I promised myself I would ponder the situation over the weekend, and try to better understand the implications, until midnight tonight. Tomorrow is a new day and there is absolutely nothing I can do to influence the current situation, so I will not worry about what I cannot change.

Life has a way of working out, it certainly has for me as it appears that I am free of M.E. now after suffering it for 5 years. I have much to be grateful for and will not allow the EU situation to drag my mood down as that solves nothing. Maybe I will rejoin the Diolomatic Corps now that my health has improved. I can maybe make a small difference there.

Be happy in your lives and only worry about what you can influence :)

Good night all and my best wishes to all of your countries, wherever you are. May you prosper in the years ahead.

Fraser
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 26, 2016, 08:42:33 pm
Not just limiting the numbers but also choosing the ones that bring more merit to your country.

That's the rational thing to do.

Rational yes, but by the common definition of racism, selective immigration is most definitely racist (ie. any mechanism which leads to unequal outcomes between races is racist).

that is not what he said. If you have an unskilled and a skilled polish worker and you choose the skilled over the unskilled that is not racism. To say that you won't take any polish workr because you hate them all is racist. lets at least get basic defenitions correct here please.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 26, 2016, 08:46:06 pm
Life has a way of working out, it certainly has for me as it appears that I am free of M.E. now after suffering it for 5 years.
Fraser

Congratulations and the best of luck, now that your illness is better!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 26, 2016, 08:51:20 pm


Life has a way of working out, it certainly has for me as it appears that I am free of M.E. now after suffering it for 5 years.

This explains why you mentioned contacting your ex employer again. Good for you. Enjoy your health. You probably appreciate it much more now :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Fraser on June 26, 2016, 09:26:09 pm
Thanks guys. I have only been out of the 'game' for just over a year so I am still relatively able to hit the ground running :) No rush though, I need to ensure my health is stable first.

Night all

Fraser
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on June 26, 2016, 09:40:08 pm
that is not what he said. If you have an unskilled and a skilled polish worker and you choose the skilled over the unskilled that is not racism. To say that you won't take any polish workr because you hate them all is racist. lets at least get basic defenitions correct here please.

But you are not using the most common definition of racism. The most common definition of racism by the people who like to throw the term around the most is group outcome based (and language is defined in use, so they get to define it).

Selective immigration would take the skilled polish worker over the unskilled one, that's not racism. On average it would take Polish immigrants over say Roma immigrants though, that's what makes it racist.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 26, 2016, 10:14:55 pm
Selective immigration would take the skilled polish worker over the unskilled one, that's not racism. On average it would take Polish immigrants over say Roma immigrants though, that's what makes it racist.

Cultural compatibility and expected assimilation are valid considerations when selecting immigrants.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on June 26, 2016, 10:40:46 pm
The only point I was trying to make by saying only Putin is clapping was: when all your allies are face-palming (including your own government officials) and the only one cheering is the guy your country is currently having a major conflict with, then maybe you should consider if you might have made a mistake. Just sayin'.

Didn't intend to add to the anti-putin hysteria going on around here (Putin is the boogeyman that is supposed to scare Sweden and Finland into joining NATO, for those who didn't know.)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rolycat on June 26, 2016, 11:10:44 pm
The only point I was trying to make by saying only Putin is clapping was: when all your allies are face-palming (including your own government officials) and the only one cheering is the guy your country is currently having a major conflict with, then maybe you should consider if you might have made a mistake. Just sayin'.

It's quite probable that more than half the country currently thinks we might have made a mistake.

Not much we can do about it at this point, though.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 26, 2016, 11:24:02 pm
Brexit should perhaps be put in a perspective, Britton is far far away from the situation that plagues Venezuela for instance!
The poor souls have to chase street cats to get anything to eat! Poor cats! Look and learn what hapends when nationalistic
communists are let to rule!

(http://cdn01.am.infobae.com/adjuntos/163/imagenes/010/715/0010715876.jpg)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on June 26, 2016, 11:28:43 pm
I believe the Brexit vote result has far broader implications than I've seen discussed here. The neoliberal economic polices of the political class (from both the left and the right) and their corporate backers have been gutting the working and middle class for the past 30 years primarily by moving manufacturing to low wage and environmental-regulation-free developing countries. 

The coordinated actions of the central bankers have served those same interests by punishing savers - encouraging borrowing and consumption of cheap consumer goods - all to the benefit of the financiers and trans-global corporate profits.  Distract the masses with cheap gadgets and entertainment. Bread and circuses.

The EU and EMU have been a central front in this program.  While their formation had good intent - a peaceful and united Europe to prevent a replay of the horrors of the last century's wars - it has more recently been used by the Troika as a tool to keep the neoliberal economic program from falling apart.

Without the ability to independently value their own currency, the southern European countries have had no tools to counteract the fallout from the borrow and spend mentality sold to them - turning them into debt serfs or essentially slaves of the Troika. The single currency was destined to cause failure of the EMU and EU eventually. This Brexit result only pushes up the timetable.

The Brits were smart enough to avoid that pitfall by staying out of the EMU but that has not protected them from the loss of manufacturing and now they've been faced with another side effect: The fallout from the endless middle east wars - with refugees on the doorstep and Muslims radicalized from decades of war and destruction.

All of this exactly mirrors the plight of the working and middle class here in the USA just as the Brexit vote is also mirrored by the Sanders and Trump phenomenon here.

All 3 of these things - Brexit, Sanders and Trump are signs that the establishment elites are loosing control. The are reaping what they have sown.

Many people are putting down their smartphones and waking up to what has been done to them.  They may not understand exactly what has happened but they know they've been wronged and they are ready to do whatever it takes to disrupt the status quo - even if it means short term economic pain.

It's unfortunate that history has demonstrated that these type of transformations are never smooth and without turmoil (and often war). Displaced workers blame outsiders and clever politicians can feed on that natural human tendency. Unfortunately in doing so they give safe harbor to racists and xenophobes which while usually small in number are loud enough to allow unfair generalizations to be made about all those who rail against the status quo. The politicos are quick to exploit such divisions in Goebble - esk fashion - whipping up political tribalism and nationalist sentiments.

We live in dangerous times.
The EMU was destined to fail in its initial form but the EU will continue with or without the UK (and the EMU might be mended eventually). The European Union has a lot of issues but there is simply no alternative. Europe needs more cooperation, not more conflict. Chauvinistic fantasies of some old "glorious" empire are just plain dumb. We're all in the same boat. Without the UK, the EU will be more decisive and Germany will have more influence, which at the moment is a good thing (although in the long run that can become problematic as well).

It's a shame the UK is leaving, and I feel sorry for everyone who voted to remain: the young ones, the people of Scotland, Northern Ireland and Londoners. Not sure why Cameron decided to stall, maybe he is hoping there is still some way to remain in the union, but it would be better for everyone if the British government respect the referendum and begin the exit negotiations as quickly as possible.

There's nothing more to say about this issue really. It's not the end of the world, maybe the UK can join again in 10-20 years. :-\
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 26, 2016, 11:40:02 pm
Not just limiting the numbers but also choosing the ones that bring more merit to your country.

That's the rational thing to do.

Rational yes, but by the common definition of racism, selective immigration is most definitely racist (ie. any mechanism which leads to unequal outcomes between races is racist).

that is not what he said. If you have an unskilled and a skilled polish worker and you choose the skilled over the unskilled that is not racism. To say that you won't take any polish workr because you hate them all is racist. lets at least get basic defenitions correct here please.

Absolutely.  And that's just how it is now.  A Polish worker and an Indian worker turn up at British border control.  One is let in no-questions-asked, and allowed to immediately take employment and/or claim benefits, one is not.  And the trendy liberals say Brexiteers are racist!  :-//
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 26, 2016, 11:42:41 pm
My local supermarket has an entire "Polish" aisle, yet I couldn't find any Mr. Sheen, Kiwi, nor Cherry Blossom there!  What's the point in that?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Macbeth on June 27, 2016, 01:04:03 am
My local supermarket has an entire "Polish" aisle, yet I couldn't find any Mr. Sheen, Kiwi, nor Cherry Blossom there!  What's the point in that?
You could have found it behind the door...?  :palm:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vk6zgo on June 27, 2016, 01:16:54 am
From what I saw, the EU Commissioners comprise representatives of each member country. One for each. These individuals are selected by the each countries Government. What gets scary is that major decisions are made by the Commissioners without the presence of the countries PM or MEP's. Effectively a chamber of few individuals making massive decisions that effect 28 countries. That really does not seem like a great decision making structure to me !
Not that I necessarily approve but it sounds like an excellent decision making structure.

As in a structure that can actually make decisions. Otherwise getting 28 countries to agree anything must be like herding cats.

The best form of government is a benign dictatorship by someone sufficiently wise.

The real problem with that is that dictators are rarely benign and tend to have a very idealized view of their own talent to ego ratio.

What happens if you disagree with them?
Are you sent to a "benign" Gulag? ;D
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 27, 2016, 02:57:19 am
Not just limiting the numbers but also choosing the ones that bring more merit to your country.

That's the rational thing to do.
... any mechanism which leads to unequal outcomes between races is racist.

By that definition, our NFL is racist because its merit based player selection results in underrepresentation of white players.

You are diluting the term 'racist' to a point that it doesn't mean much.



Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on June 27, 2016, 03:46:08 am
Not just limiting the numbers but also choosing the ones that bring more merit to your country.

That's the rational thing to do.
... any mechanism which leads to unequal outcomes between races is racist.

By that definition, our NFL is racist because its merit based player selection results in underrepresentation of white players.

You are diluting the term 'racist' to a point that it doesn't mean much.

I have to agree with zapta on this.

The definition of 'unequal outcomes' becomes critical - and it will rarely be given the clarification it demands.  Far too often, 'racism' is used as a weak or even throwaway excuse ... and it just trades on ignorance and hysteria, rather than validity.


The NFL example is a good one.  Racism could be claimed if there was an over-representation of white players where the range of available talent was found to be stronger with non-white players.

I have seen it all too often that people who object to valid selection on merit will pull out the discrimination card.


But enough on this.  From what I understand, there's a whole lot more involved than just a topic of racism and the fact of the matter is, now that the vote is over - what is important is what happens next.

Will the UK exit the EU?
When?  (Let's go with signing the declaration for starters here.)
Will the EU power structure try to rescue the situation - or will they pout and be stubborn?
Will those in the EU power structure learn anything - and if they do, use that knowledge to make the EU better?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 27, 2016, 04:59:29 am
Even though our 16 federal states differ a lot in culture and financial resources, this model of government works good enough for us to believe that something like this should be also possible on an European scale.
Like I said, Junker loves this idea, we hate it.

We never used to have problems living with Scotland, now because of European bribes they will do anything to cling to that gravy train.

Quote
still not even a Bavarian would say he lost his cultural identity because Bavaria is a part of the German Federation.
If you ask people from deprived areas of England if their town still retains the same culture of 10-20 years ago, many will say no.
This change is almost entirely blamed on EU immigration policies that have undermined the previous cohesive culture of working class areas.

Quote
Heck, not even the dumbest remaining German Nazi idiots ever uttered that desire after 1945.
This collective guilt of modern Germans over what the Nazis did, has to end. We can see it influencing your policies on immigration where you are bending over backwards to avoid appearing discriminatory. This has resulted in insane decisions being made which are bad for all of Europe.

Quote
I'm not sure if I find it amusing or frustrating to see people all over Europe always blame Germany for their misery based on a bizarre perception of the reality.
Nobody is blaming "Germany", people are blaming Junkers and Merkel.
He was told quite specifically to not open his big mouth during the Referendum, and even Merkel has told him to quit being so nasty, and many others are laying the blame for Brexit entirely at his door. Cameron was right all along, he's simply the wrong man for the job, he's fundamentally too arrogant to learn from his mistakes.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kalvin on June 27, 2016, 05:17:43 am
UK can get out from this current situation quite easily by setting up another round of the same vote. Of course the "winners" will say that the new round is not needed as the dice has already cast. But the winners should not be afraid of the new vote, if the vote result is real as the outcome of the new vote should be the same. The basis for the new vote is quite clear:

1. The result 52 - 48 is very tight one, so new vote will better reflect the truth.

2. It is possible that the people didn't know what they were voting for and its consequences.

3. Some of the voters really believed for the "350m for NHS" slogan which is not going to happen.

4. Some of the people may have been protesting the current domestic politics more than whether or not belong to EU.

If the winners do not agree that the new vote should be arranged, they are acting like the crooked, non-democratic politicians they are protesting against. The current outcome 52 - 48 is too narrow to make real conclusion what the voters really meant with the other three points listed above.

The new vote could be arranged so that the voting activity shall be more than the current 72% in order to make it valid**. If the voting activity is less than the current 72% then the current result shall remain. The majority shall get at least 60% in order to change the current voting outcome. If the outcome is still the same as the current one independent of the majority percentage, it is valid. If the outcome is different with too narrow margin (like 53 "remain" - 47 "leave"), the decision will be made by the representatives of the parliament as the voting result should be considered as "tie" as the people cannot decide directly with proper margin.

Edit: ** There is a problem with this if a small minority - like 15% - would not re-vote and they can nullify the second vote altogether. Nevertheless, the votes would be still counted and would reveal what the voters wanted to say although the result may not change.

In that way the UK can save itself if the voters should see that the current outcome is a poor one, and at the same time the voters have given the EU and the current domestic politicians a good slap to their face along with the nice middle finger without destroying the Great Britain.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 27, 2016, 06:12:06 am
UK can get out from this current situation quite easily by setting up another round of the same vote. Of course the "winners" will say that the new round is not needed as the dice has already cast. But the winners should not be afraid of the new vote, if the vote result is real as the outcome of the new vote should be the same. The basis for the new vote is quite clear:

How many 'do-overs' should there be?  Just one to counteract the first vote?  Maybe a third in case the second doesn't get the right answer?  Best 3 out of 5 or 4 out of 7 - like the playoffs?  Maybe somebody should just print up the ballots with the right answer already marked.  The counting will go faster!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on June 27, 2016, 06:26:09 am
Is it just me - or does the current EU structure operate not too dissimilarly to the USSR of old.  Member states become part of the union (this time with carrot, not stick) and then central wisdom gets dispensed 'for the common good'.

To date, implementations of communism have been somewhat of a failure - but is the EU an attempt to roll it out once more in a new wrapper?

Are those in control there to oversee fair and equitable governance, or merely satisfy their lust for power?  The grumblings of the member states and the people seem rather familiar.


There could be a million holes in that idea ... but it's one that seemed to naturally present itself to my simplistic view.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kalvin on June 27, 2016, 06:31:39 am
UK can get out from this current situation quite easily by setting up another round of the same vote. Of course the "winners" will say that the new round is not needed as the dice has already cast. But the winners should not be afraid of the new vote, if the vote result is real as the outcome of the new vote should be the same. The basis for the new vote is quite clear:

How many 'do-overs' should there be?  Just one to counteract the first vote?  Maybe a third in case the second doesn't get the right answer?  Best 3 out of 5 or 4 out of 7 - like the playoffs?  Maybe somebody should just print up the ballots with the right answer already marked.  The counting will go faster!

One is enough :) The current 52 - 48 is very tight so it could be considered as "tie". For example, it was estimated that the weather during the voting day could affect the result +/- few per cent, so should the weather really decide the future of the Great Britain. I have also listed three other points why the new vote might be in order. With better margin, the result can be more reliable and reflect better the voter's will.

You should also keep in mind that the current vote result is not obligatory, so UK may still decide not to resign from the EU if the parliament decides so. With the current small margin, it would be quite tempting not to file Article 50. Arranging a new vote, the people's voice would be heard better.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 27, 2016, 06:37:08 am
My local supermarket has an entire "Polish" aisle, yet I couldn't find any Mr. Sheen, Kiwi, nor Cherry Blossom there!  What's the point in that?

Police meet with Polish community leaders after hate-fuelled leaflets are posted through doors in Huntingdon

http://www.huntspost.co.uk/news/police_meet_with_polish_community_leaders_after_hate_fuelled_leaflets_are_posted_through_doors_in_huntingdon_1_4592837?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=dlvr.it (http://www.huntspost.co.uk/news/police_meet_with_polish_community_leaders_after_hate_fuelled_leaflets_are_posted_through_doors_in_huntingdon_1_4592837?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=dlvr.it)

https://twitter.com/hashtag/PostRefRacism?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw (https://twitter.com/hashtag/PostRefRacism?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)

Quote
Hate crime reports investigated in wake of Brexit result (VIDEOS)

For when are the brown shirts  patroling?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on June 27, 2016, 06:55:45 am
Maybe somebody should just print up the ballots with the right answer already marked.  The counting will go faster!
It also reduces the problem of people not knowing how they ought to cast their vote. Much easier. Hey, the whole process could be optimized further by not requiring people to go to the polling stations at all.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: continuo on June 27, 2016, 07:41:01 am
They should provide a voting "App" for smartphones. Young people obviously never heard of "polling stations" and "pencils" which are used to draw "crosses" into "boxes" printed onto small pieces of "paper"  :palm:

The silence from the Brexit Camp is deafening. They haven't any clue how to proceed now.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 27, 2016, 07:46:52 am
The silence from the Brexit Camp is deafening. They haven't any clue how to proceed now.

of course, this was my biggest complaint about the campaign. It is not for the leave camp to have a plan, it was for the government to negotiate for both options with the EU before the vote. The article 50 rule is back to front, we should have spent 2 years negotiating the alternative and then voted and then trigger an article that said "chierio" if the vote had gone that way. Fact is we had no idea what we were voting on which is why I concluded that really it didn't matter which way I voted as we are voting on something not decided yet.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: SteveyG on June 27, 2016, 07:50:34 am
My local supermarket has an entire "Polish" aisle, yet I couldn't find any Mr. Sheen, Kiwi, nor Cherry Blossom there!  What's the point in that?

Police meet with Polish community leaders after hate-fuelled leaflets are posted through doors in Huntingdon

http://www.huntspost.co.uk/news/police_meet_with_polish_community_leaders_after_hate_fuelled_leaflets_are_posted_through_doors_in_huntingdon_1_4592837?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=dlvr.it (http://www.huntspost.co.uk/news/police_meet_with_polish_community_leaders_after_hate_fuelled_leaflets_are_posted_through_doors_in_huntingdon_1_4592837?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=dlvr.it)

https://twitter.com/hashtag/PostRefRacism?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw (https://twitter.com/hashtag/PostRefRacism?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)

Quote
Hate crime reports investigated in wake of Brexit result (VIDEOS)

For when are the brown shirts  patroling?

 :-\ The worry is that the more outspoken who have issues against immigrants will now feel they have 52% of the population to back them up if they decide to pick on someone.
It just goes to show that people honestly have no clue and somehow thought we would just send back all immigrants to their home countries.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 27, 2016, 07:52:37 am
people in the UK are ignorant. And that normally suits the government, this time it has backfired.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: G7PSK on June 27, 2016, 08:15:31 am
David Cameron always said he would start article 51 straight away after a leave vote came in. He has now weasel'd on that and announced his resignation to take place in 2 months time. This has kyboshed the leave group particularly Boris Johnson. The Brexit will now most likely never happen as the referendum was advisory only and the next government will ignore it even if that government is led by Boris Johnson, being prime-minister is now a poison chalice to him.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 27, 2016, 08:22:32 am
indeed I was duped into thinking this was a vote on the EU it seems it was just a vote on david cameron.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 27, 2016, 08:38:09 am
Is it just me - or does the current EU structure operate not too dissimilarly to the USSR of old.  Member states become part of the union (this time with carrot, not stick) and then central wisdom gets dispensed 'for the common good'.
You could just as well take the US as example, the federal laws go above the state laws, but states do have some self saying, but perhaps an american could explain it better than me.
My case is, small countries can better join together to form a pact of some size against other large countries as India, China, Russia, US in order to stay in business.
But there should be some time for quality, not expanding for the sake of expansion but also keep on guaranteeing the quality and stability of the pact. I hope the brittish message was clear enough for them.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kalvin on June 27, 2016, 08:46:57 am
indeed I was duped into thinking this was a vote on the EU it seems it was just a vote on david cameron.

Probably so, as he didn't remain but has already left.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 27, 2016, 08:47:25 am
Quality is my problem with the EU. why did we admit countries like poland ? and no I am not saying that I don't want them to immigrate here, I am saying why do they feel the urge to emmigrate from poland ? so much for the EU being made up of equal countries, this was replicated with the euro.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 27, 2016, 08:50:54 am
indeed I was duped into thinking this was a vote on the EU it seems it was just a vote on david cameron.

Probably so, as he didn't remain but has already left.

I think it's called politics, you are given the impression you are helping to make a certain decision when in reality you are just dealing with petty party politics. so we now have created a second political party with the tory ins and the tory outs, next will follow the labour party with the party members backing their leader and the party MP's not giving a shit about what the people voted for (the leader).

This is why we needed a plan before the vote. we now have to sort the mess the country is in before we can talk to the EU and negotiate. This s the biggest mess in history. If the tories want to keep blaming labour for the financial crash they can go down in history as the party that caused this mess.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: continuo on June 27, 2016, 09:19:37 am
I think it's called politics, you are given the impression you are helping to make a certain decision when in reality you are just dealing with petty party politics. so we now have created a second political party with the tory ins and the tory outs, next will follow the labour party with the party members backing their leader and the party MP's not giving a shit about what the people voted for (the leader).

This is why we needed a plan before the vote. we now have to sort the mess the country is in before we can talk to the EU and negotiate. This s the biggest mess in history. If the tories want to keep blaming labour for the financial crash they can go down in history as the party that caused this mess.

Nice. Holding an entire continent hostage while you slowly start to sort out your internal petty party politics, before you are ready to decide if you leave or not or if you come up with something totally different. As if we don't have any other problems  :-+
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 27, 2016, 09:41:24 am
Quality is my problem with the EU. why did we admit countries like poland ? and no I am not saying that I don't want them to immigrate here, I am saying why do they feel the urge to emmigrate from poland ? so much for the EU being made up of equal countries, this was replicated with the euro.
Those "problems" are just starting up problems, as wealth equals out over all connected countries the movement of labour from one to the other countries will disappear.
The biggest problem however are the businesses that take advantage of the situation, a polish worker has the same rights as a native worker and should get equal pay and pension etc.
The problem is not the system that allows the migration of work, but the people taking advantage of this and don't be mistaken a lot of big companies take advantage and earn from this, so the economy also improves, however "Joe Average" does not see this, he can only see that he is out of a job or gets less paid since his new colleagues are also taking less as granted and do not complain, which is completely understandable from his point of view.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 27, 2016, 09:44:47 am
Nice. Holding an entire continent hostage while you slowly start to sort out your internal petty party politics, before you are ready to decide if you leave or not or if you come up with something totally different. As if we don't have any other problems  :-+
It's actually quite hard to argue this is not the case.

Cameron wanted a referendum to silence Tory Eurosceptics. He thought that it would be blocked by the Liberals, then he thought that Remain would win I don't think it entered anyone's head (except UKIP's) that the vote would actually go the way it did.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 27, 2016, 09:45:01 am
I think it's called politics, you are given the impression you are helping to make a certain decision when in reality you are just dealing with petty party politics. so we now have created a second political party with the tory ins and the tory outs, next will follow the labour party with the party members backing their leader and the party MP's not giving a shit about what the people voted for (the leader).

This is why we needed a plan before the vote. we now have to sort the mess the country is in before we can talk to the EU and negotiate. This s the biggest mess in history. If the tories want to keep blaming labour for the financial crash they can go down in history as the party that caused this mess.

Nice. Holding an entire continent hostage while you slowly start to sort out your internal petty party politics, before you are ready to decide if you leave or not or if you come up with something totally different. As if we don't have any other problems  :-+

Exactly, its disgusting and shows how petty politics is.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 27, 2016, 09:51:02 am
Quality is my problem with the EU. why did we admit countries like poland ? and no I am not saying that I don't want them to immigrate here, I am saying why do they feel the urge to emmigrate from poland ? so much for the EU being made up of equal countries, this was replicated with the euro.
Those "problems" are just starting up problems, as wealth equals out over all connected countries the movement of labour from one to the other countries will disappear.
The biggest problem however are the businesses that take advantage of the situation, a polish worker has the same rights as a native worker and should get equal pay and pension etc.
The problem is not the system that allows the migration of work, but the people taking advantage of this and don't be mistaken a lot of big companies take advantage and earn from this, so the economy also improves, however "Joe Average" does not see this, he can only see that he is out of a job or gets less paid since his new colleagues are also taking less as granted and do not complain, which is completely understandable from his point of view.


You are right, we have a surplus of labour and so the price of it falls, good for big business bad for the individual. the problem is that we are not an ever expanding country, the land we have is not going to increase so along with a lowering of wages we have an increase in house prices. I can't afford my house in todays prices, why I struggled to buy 6 years ago and only afforded with help is now 50% up in value while my wages have risen by just 23% and half of that was due to promotion not natural wage rises to counteract inflation. so today I am in the same position i was 6 years ago if not worse, the only good thing is that having bought cheap my house would sell for more should i move so it would be not too dificukt to buy again but essentially I can't get anything nicer I can still only afford the very cheapest of houses. Too many people can;t afford a house and many companies are using people in apprentiships to get cheap labour.

Meanwhile the house builders are buying up all te farm land to build the smallest houses you can get at the highest prices.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 27, 2016, 09:59:08 am
You describe us as a "small" country, true, but as I said we can be a potent country as well. It is all about the make up and attitude of the population, not the square metre area of the turf :) We are a centre of excellence in technology and engineering. If we are as insignificant as some would like to believe, why has our decision spread shock waves across the World markets and political arena ?
Well the situation in Greece send similar shock waves through the world markets and political arena.
BTW I used to work for a company in the NL which obliterated an entire branch of the telecom industry in the UK within a couple of years. So how does that work for excellence in technology and engineering?

Edit: name one thing the UK is better at nowadays than all the other countries in the EU! Englisch breakfast and oldest Queen don't count  >:D

Defense and aerospace.
Have you heard of Rolls Royce  |O

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 27, 2016, 10:03:29 am
Quote
  I can't afford my house in todays prices, why I struggled to buy 6 years ago
Well at least you have a house, I must not think about those that rent an apt or something and seeing the rent go up with 5-8% each and every year (maybe more in the UK?) while the salaries remain about frozen.
It is a rat race, and I for one do not want to live in a big city with those extreme prices, I rather live somewhere in a small village where things are reasonably normal, however if you depent on your work of the large city you have less choice except to quit and work somewhere else. I wonder how long this can continu, people will move away when they realize that there is no gain anymore.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: StuUK on June 27, 2016, 10:07:51 am


Defense and aerospace.
Have you heard of Rolls Royce  |O

And they are global as well....
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 27, 2016, 10:11:46 am
Have you heard of Rolls Royce
The motorcars division is a german company? (Bought by BMW if I am not mistaken).

The airplane division is not doing well
Quote
Rolls-Royce has issued five profit warnings in less than two years, and its share price has fallen by almost half since last April.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 27, 2016, 10:13:15 am
Quote
  I can't afford my house in todays prices, why I struggled to buy 6 years ago
Well at least you have a house, I must not think about those that rent an apt or something and seeing the rent go up with 5-8% each and every year (maybe more in the UK?) while the salaries remain about frozen.
It is a rat race, and I for one do not want to live in a big city with those extreme prices, I rather live somewhere in a small village where things are reasonably normal, however if you depent on your work of the large city you have less choice except to quit and work somewhere else. I wonder how long this can continu, people will move away when they realize that there is no gain anymore.

I would never rent. At least in buying I end up with something and I made shure it was on land i own not a bloody flat where even after buying I scarely own the bricks forget the land.

Live in some village in normality ? you know very little about the UK. Everyone would love to live in a village so prices in villages are sky high, just travel 2 miles out of this small town I am in and find a village and prices are already 2-5 times what my house/land is worth.... london ? i'd never live in london. villages are for posh people that don't like us "riff raff"
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 27, 2016, 10:18:27 am
Quote
I would never rent. At least in buying I end up with something and I made shure it was on land i own not a bloody flat where even after buying I scarely own the bricks forget the land.
Well good for you, sell it and you can buy a castle in Poland, it is pretty empty I heard  ;)
But yeah houseprices are also in our country rediculous high since half 90's when banks came up with the briljant plan that both spouses income could be used for the mortgage, bammm houseprices doubled  :(
I did not own a house back then so I also drew the shortest stick.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: HackedFridgeMagnet on June 27, 2016, 10:57:27 am
Edit: name one thing the UK is better at nowadays than all the other countries in the EU! Englisch breakfast and oldest Queen don't count  >:D
ARM processors are pretty much ahead of the game. Pretty sure they're British.


On the resignation thing. An outsiders viewpoint.

Wow.
Call such a divisive referendum which puts half your country offside and all of Europe offside, then resign without carrying out the Article 50.
Wars have probably started for less.
He should fulfill the result of the referendum first, then resign.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rolycat on June 27, 2016, 11:14:50 am
Edit: name one thing the UK is better at nowadays than all the other countries in the EU! Englisch breakfast and oldest Queen don't count  >:D
ARM processors are pretty much ahead of the game. Pretty sure they're British.


On the resignation thing. An outsiders viewpoint.

Wow.
Call such a divisive referendum which puts half your country offside and all of Europe offside, then resign without carrying out the Article 50.
Wars have probably started for less.
He should fulfill the result of the referendum first, then resign.

The Independent is reporting an off-the-wall theory (http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/people-are-really-really-hoping-this-theory-about-david-cameron-and-brexit-is-true--bJhqBql0VZ?utm_source=indy&utm_medium=top5&utm_campaign=i100) that dodging Article 50 is a cunning plan to destroy the careers of Boris and his chums, while annulling the referendum result.

Lots of people clutching at straws, at the moment  :scared:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: StuUK on June 27, 2016, 11:34:18 am
[

The Independent is reporting an off-the-wall theory (http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/people-are-really-really-hoping-this-theory-about-david-cameron-and-brexit-is-true--bJhqBql0VZ?utm_source=indy&utm_medium=top5&utm_campaign=i100) that dodging Article 50 is a cunning plan to destroy the careers of Boris and his chums, while annulling the referendum result.

Lots of people clutching at straws, at the moment  :scared:

Not as off the wall as it might first appear.....
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 27, 2016, 11:49:30 am
Nice. Holding an entire continent hostage while you slowly start to sort out your internal petty party politics, before you are ready to decide if you leave or not or if you come up with something totally different.

Equally the EU has had decades to work out that we are not interested in becoming part of Junkers federation, yet by bribing other countries to remain part of its cliche, we've been forced to follow the same path.
You've also had 20 years to sort out your spending, but still there's a £100 billion black hole. Even the Mafia have a better fiscal track record.

Like any expansionist organisation with a arrogant drunkard in charge, everyone tries to maintain their own fiefdoms by continually expanding their influence, rather than just doing one job efficiently.

Right now there are a billion people telling you that inviting Turkey into the EU is insane, so what do you do? Do it in secret anyway.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 27, 2016, 12:00:56 pm
The pound is falling, the chancellor is making a brave speech, this is not because of the result, this is because of the dithering.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Buriedcode on June 27, 2016, 12:21:56 pm
I'm not sure why people are surprised, or feel the need to comment on Camerons resignation.  He didn't want the referendum, was openly for remaining within the EU (as all parties were, except the laughable UKIP) and he assumed the public would see sense, and the matter would be put to bed, at least for the rest of his leadership.  Well it backfired because whilst many people seemed to have valid reasons for wanting out, a fair chunk didn't have a clue and voted that way, so he has to stand down because the referendum went the other way to what he stood for.

I was expected, and even assumed by most that I spoke to, and yet... some seem to be shocked.  Again, it goes back to those who voted to leave and changed their minds - what exactly did they expect? Everything to be hunkydory just with a lot more cash the government can spend?  Far too many focused on the 'make Britain great again', like somehow we can turn back time - something the older generation is prone to (we all end up more-or-less stuck in the period around our twenties).  This leads to some saying 'I told you so', and a very real level of frustration when you have those who so loudly promoted leaving the EU suddenly wetting their pants.  Shit is still being thrown by both sides.

Anyone noticed how Corbyn is almost nowhere to be seen, as usual. Whilst we may complain that our leaders are reckless or disingenuous, at least most had enough charisma for people to remember who they are.  I feel for Scotland, and Northern Ireland, and the rest of Europe.  It is usually the US that is seen as being a bit of a 'spoiled child' of the world, but nope, this time, it really is Britain. I have heard some rather patriotic friends say they actually feel ashamed - bearing in mind whilst the rest of the world might see us as patriotic, I rarely see it.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 27, 2016, 12:25:55 pm
We should not have had the vote without a deal. We did not know what we were voting on.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 27, 2016, 12:42:15 pm
Again, it goes back to those who voted to leave and changed their minds - what exactly did they expect?
Many people in Britain like to vote tactically, they don't like anyone so they either vote for the Greens or they vote for the party they think is going to lose, so that nobody gets a majority.

Obviously many assumed that the Remain vote would win, so they voted against it as a way of sticking two fingers up to the EU elites.

And please, can we stop it with the "OMG Make Britain Great again/£350 million for the NHS" sniggering, nobody believed any of that nonsense. Just look at the Bank of England pulling out £250 Billion to bolster the situation, £350 million is obviously small change in the scheme of things.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 27, 2016, 12:45:20 pm
The Independent is reporting an off-the-wall theory (http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/people-are-really-really-hoping-this-theory-about-david-cameron-and-brexit-is-true--bJhqBql0VZ?utm_source=indy&utm_medium=top5&utm_campaign=i100) that dodging Article 50 is a cunning plan to destroy the careers of Boris and his chums, while annulling the referendum result.
Lots of people clutching at straws, at the moment  :scared:
Well it is easy to criticize others just like in soccer everyone in the pub knows best how it should be done, then you get the job yourself and you find out it is not easy, it is actually incredibly difficult. 
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: G7PSK on June 27, 2016, 01:12:10 pm
Do we even need 1940's post war organisations like the EU in this century of globalisation, I think not. Most things can be sold any where in the world as long as they comply with ISO and other standards such as IEE, most things are available online as well. So to a large extent the EU could be considered redundant in the greater scheme of things.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 27, 2016, 01:33:11 pm
The Independent is reporting an off-the-wall theory (http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/people-are-really-really-hoping-this-theory-about-david-cameron-and-brexit-is-true--bJhqBql0VZ?utm_source=indy&utm_medium=top5&utm_campaign=i100) that dodging Article 50 is a cunning plan to destroy the careers of Boris and his chums, while annulling the referendum result.
If you have watched 'House of cards' then you'd assume this would be a winning strategy for Cameron. Be done with UKIP once and for all.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 27, 2016, 01:40:43 pm
Again, it goes back to those who voted to leave and changed their minds - what exactly did they expect?
Many people in Britain like to vote tactically, they don't like anyone so they either vote for the Greens or they vote for the party they think is going to lose, so that nobody gets a majority.

Not everybody votes green as a protest. The green party as UKIP have a genuine following. You know it's a protest vote in an election when the same poll card has a vote for green AND UKIP
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Cerebus on June 27, 2016, 01:45:39 pm
Do we even need 1940's post war organisations like the EU in this century of globalisation, I think not. Most things can be sold any where in the world as long as they comply with ISO and other standards such as IEE, most things are available online as well. So to a large extent the EU could be considered redundant in the greater scheme of things.

There's a bit more to this than harmonized standards for goods. I'll wager that you're too young to have had a father that fought in the 2nd World War and we're both too young to have a father that fought in the 1st World War. Both wars started in Europe. Prior to the end of 2nd World War there was almost always a war going on somewhere in Europe. Since the formation of the various post war pan-European organizations there hasn't been a war in Europe - I doubt that is coincidence.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 27, 2016, 01:48:12 pm
Do we even need 1940's post war organisations like the EU in this century of globalisation, I think not. Most things can be sold any where in the world as long as they comply with ISO and other standards such as IEE, most things are available online as well. So to a large extent the EU could be considered redundant in the greater scheme of things.

There's a bit more to this than harmonized standards for goods. I'll wager that you're too young to have had a father that fought in the 2nd World War and we're both too young to have a father that fought in the 1st World War. Both wars started in Europe. Prior to the end of 2nd World War there was almost always a war going on somewhere in Europe. Since the formation of the various post war pan-European organizations there hasn't been a war in Europe - I doubt that is coincidence.

A lot of other things have changed as well, we are globalized, we trade it's no longer us and them unless your ignorant and/or live under a rock.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rolycat on June 27, 2016, 01:48:47 pm
The Independent is reporting an off-the-wall theory (http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/people-are-really-really-hoping-this-theory-about-david-cameron-and-brexit-is-true--bJhqBql0VZ?utm_source=indy&utm_medium=top5&utm_campaign=i100) that dodging Article 50 is a cunning plan to destroy the careers of Boris and his chums, while annulling the referendum result.
If you have watched 'House of cards' then you'd assume this would be a winning strategy for Cameron. Be done with UKIP once and for all.

You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment  ;)

(Quote from the original British series starring Ian Richardson)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 27, 2016, 01:55:38 pm
The pound is falling, the chancellor is making a brave speech, this is not because of the result, this is because of the dithering.
I'm not entirely sure it is the dithering - if Brext were going to have no impact on the value of the £ then delay in formally putting things in motion would not affect the markets. It's more likely to be the fact that both the Labour and the Tories are having/about to have leadership battles/crises that is spooking the market.

.....what exactly did they expect? Everything to be hunkydory just with a lot more cash the government can spend? 
To be fair that's what the Leave campaign told them would happen.

Quote
Anyone noticed how Corbyn is almost nowhere to be seen, as usual. Whilst we may complain that our leaders are reckless or disingenuous, at least most had enough charisma for people to remember who they are.
Corbyn's problem is that he is a bit too honest, he (apparently) tried to have a nuanced discussion with the public - that simply doesn't work. The GBP (Great British Public) wants a simple black-or-white argument to be presented because that's how we've always done politics.

As to the resignation - that piece in the Indy is an interesting theory but it is just that. I don't think one needs to look further beyond the fact that Cameron decided that he did not want history to record his last act as PM to be invocation of Article 50. Had he not resigned he risked a vote of no confidence and a relatively controlled hand over to a new PM is much less destructive. The fact that it leaves the Brexit crowd still riding the tiger and wondering how to get off is a bonus.

We need a plan - I hope that behind the scenes a lot of activity is taking place to sort one out.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: G7PSK on June 27, 2016, 01:58:38 pm
Do we even need 1940's post war organisations like the EU in this century of globalisation, I think not. Most things can be sold any where in the world as long as they comply with ISO and other standards such as IEE, most things are available online as well. So to a large extent the EU could be considered redundant in the greater scheme of things.

There's a bit more to this than harmonized standards for goods. I'll wager that you're too young to have had a father that fought in the 2nd World War and we're both too young to have a father that fought in the 1st World War. Both wars started in Europe. Prior to the end of 2nd World War there was almost always a war going on somewhere in Europe. Since the formation of the various post war pan-European organizations there hasn't been a war in Europe - I doubt that is coincidence.
My mother in law was nurse in the war my father in law was a POW from dunkirk onward, my father was an RAF medic just after the war. I have great grandparents who fled Poland in 1912 and Russia in 1919 and Grece and France in the 1920's. The EU or rather its predecessor helped in the post war stabilisation but the cold war with the nuclear sword of Damocles has been a far bigger factor in keeping the peace.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 27, 2016, 02:18:19 pm
UK can get out from this current situation quite easily by setting up another round of the same vote. Of course the "winners" will say that the new round is not needed as the dice has already cast. But the winners should not be afraid of the new vote, if the vote result is real as the outcome of the new vote should be the same. The basis for the new vote is quite clear:

How many 'do-overs' should there be?  Just one to counteract the first vote?  Maybe a third in case the second doesn't get the right answer?  Best 3 out of 5 or 4 out of 7 - like the playoffs?  Maybe somebody should just print up the ballots with the right answer already marked.  The counting will go faster!

One is enough :) The current 52 - 48 is very tight so it could be considered as "tie". For example, it was estimated that the weather during the voting day could affect the result +/- few per cent, so should the weather really decide the future of the Great Britain. I have also listed three other points why the new vote might be in order. With better margin, the result can be more reliable and reflect better the voter's will.

You should also keep in mind that the current vote result is not obligatory, so UK may still decide not to resign from the EU if the parliament decides so. With the current small margin, it would be quite tempting not to file Article 50. Arranging a new vote, the people's voice would be heard better.

I guess one would be enough if you get the answer you want but what if the result is even thinner?  You want a 3rd vote?  What if it is even more heavily slanted toward leave?

Parliament can decide to ignore the voters if they wish.  It's a referendum, not a cast-in-stone obligation.  After all, the members of Parliament are much smarter than the great hordes of voters.  Just ask them!

The US has had quite a few presidential elections that were far closer than Brexit:

http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-closest-presidential-elections.php (http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-closest-presidential-elections.php)

In fact, Obama won the 2012 election 51% to 47% - you didn't see us whining about a 'do-over'.

I'm pretty sure the weather was the same for everyone.  Vote or don't but if you don't, you can't whine about the results.

FWIW, voting is mandatory in Singapore.  Skip an election and you lose the right to vote in all future elections.  You MIGHT, after paying a S$50 fine, have your voting rights restored but there is no guarantee.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on June 27, 2016, 02:20:47 pm

Corbyn's problem is that he is a bit too honest,

You are joking, aren't you?

I think Corbyn is a loony lefty, with completely idiotic policies.  BUT I did think he was a principled man, with the courage of his convictions - "This is what I believe in, and this is what I want to do."  He is also a lifelong Eurosceptic, and has voted against the EU at every turn.  Then somehow he was brow-beaten into pretending to be a remainer.  Just look at how half-arsed his campaigning was!
Had he stuck to his true feelings, he could have lead the Labour Leave campaign, and would be sitting pretty and in a position to try to enact some of his left-wing ideals in the exit process.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on June 27, 2016, 02:42:08 pm
In fact, Obama won the 2012 election 51% to 47% - you didn't see us whining about a 'do-over'.
Yeah, and in the 2000 election Bush won with 47.87% against Gore who got 48.38% -- oh wait. :palm: Then Bush and Blair decided it was a good idea to invade Iraq and now we have complete chaos in the middle east with religious fanatics raping neighbouring countries and blowing things up all over Europe and North America. Kinda wish the Americans would have insisted on a 'do-over'. Xenophobes all over Europe are gaining power, complaining about the refugees from the fallout of the Iraq war, except in England where they are instead complaining about the dirty polish. :palm:

Sigh. If it was possible I would vote for an exit from earth, but unfortunately, not much of an option in reality, just like the brexit. There was some talk about a colony on mars though... hmmm.:-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 27, 2016, 02:46:32 pm
The pound is falling, the chancellor is making a brave speech, this is not because of the result, this is because of the dithering.
I'm not entirely sure it is the dithering - if Brext were going to have no impact on the value of the £ then delay in formally putting things in motion would not affect the markets. It's more likely to be the fact that both the Labour and the Tories are having/about to have leadership battles/crises that is spooking the market.


That's what I meant. Instead of getting on with it we have left europe in the lurch and have gone off to have our own squables, we no longer know any more about the future of our own country than we do about the EU
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 27, 2016, 02:55:27 pm

Corbyn's problem is that he is a bit too honest,

You are joking, aren't you?
No.

Quote
I think Corbyn is a loony lefty, with completely idiotic policies.  BUT I did think he was a principled man, with the courage of his convictions - "This is what I believe in, and this is what I want to do."  He is also a lifelong Eurosceptic, and has voted against the EU at every turn.  Then somehow he was brow-beaten into pretending to be a remainer.  Just look at how half-arsed his campaigning was!
Had he stuck to his true feelings, he could have lead the Labour Leave campaign, and would be sitting pretty and in a position to try to enact some of his left-wing ideals in the exit process.
I agree with pretty much all you just said.

I know that Corbyn was vehemently Euroskeptic in the past but even principled politicians sometimes change their views.

BUT it doesn't actually matter whether he had some sort of epiphany over Europe or just agreed to toe the party line. Once the decision had been made that he would back the Remain campaign he should have done so wholeheartedly. His famous "I'm seven-and-a-half out of ten on Europe" comment did not inspire confidence. In fact the BBC is reporting that about half of Labour supporters were unsure what the official stance of the party was. It might be more honest for him to admit that he had come around to supporting our membership of the EU but with reservations (it also might not, but let's give the benefit of the doubt) but it did not help the campaign.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 27, 2016, 02:57:28 pm
In fact the BBC is reporting that about half of Labour supporters were unsure what the official stance of the party was. It might be more honest for him to admit that he had come around to supporting our membership of the EU but with reservations (it also might not, but let's give the benefit of the doubt) but it did not help the campaign.



Bearing in mind they don't like him anyware and are government mouthpeice particularly if you listen to radio 4
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kalvin on June 27, 2016, 03:23:20 pm
In fact, Obama won the 2012 election 51% to 47% - you didn't see us whining about a 'do-over'.
Yeah, and in the 2000 election Bush won with 47.87% against Gore who got 48.38% -- oh wait. :palm: Then Bush and Blair decided it was a good idea to invade Iraq and now we have complete chaos in the middle east with religious fanatics raping neighbouring countries and blowing things up all over Europe and North America. Kinda wish the Americans would have insisted on a 'do-over'. Xenophobes all over Europe are gaining power, complaining about the refugees from the fallout of the Iraq war, except in England where they are instead complaining about the dirty polish. :palm:

Sigh. If it was possible I would vote for an exit from earth, but unfortunately, not much of an option in reality, just like the brexit. There was some talk about a colony on mars though... hmmm.:-DD

Brexit is definitely more profound decision than just selecting the President for the next 4 years. Brexit is a decision that will affect the country and its citizens for the next decades, so it should better be a good decision - not just f**k-you-government-statement.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 27, 2016, 03:34:31 pm


Brexit is definitely more profound decision than just selecting the President for the next 4 years. Brexit is a decision that will affect the country and its citizens for the next decades, so it should better be a good decision - not just f**k-you-government-statement.

But that really is how stupid people are.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 27, 2016, 03:59:26 pm


Brexit is definitely more profound decision than just selecting the President for the next 4 years. Brexit is a decision that will affect the country and its citizens for the next decades, so it should better be a good decision - not just f**k-you-government-statement.

But that really is how stupid people are.
the-people-that-disagree-with-are-stupid is a childish approach to politics.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 27, 2016, 04:02:28 pm


Brexit is definitely more profound decision than just selecting the President for the next 4 years. Brexit is a decision that will affect the country and its citizens for the next decades, so it should better be a good decision - not just f**k-you-government-statement.

But that really is how stupid people are.
the-people-that-disagree-with-are-stupid is a childish approach to politics.

In the short time i have taken an instrest I have met plenty of stupid people who can only think about one little thing with the exclusion to everything else. Those that blame everything on immigration are stupid, and i have demonstrated that, I have a job far beyond my qualifications, why can't the lazy brits find a job ? but instead they blame immigrants instead of getting off their arses. They also don't see all the other apsects to this.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 27, 2016, 04:47:00 pm
In the short time i have taken an instrest I have met plenty of stupid people who can only think about one little thing with the exclusion to everything else. Those that blame everything on immigration are stupid, and i have demonstrated that, I have a job far beyond my qualifications, why can't the lazy brits find a job ? but instead they blame immigrants instead of getting off their arses. They also don't see all the other apsects to this.
I don't understand the whole problem with immigrants in the UK. At 5% the UK has the third lowest unemployment rate in Europe. I once read that a well running economy needs an unemployment rate of around 5%.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 27, 2016, 04:52:18 pm
In the short time i have taken an instrest I have met plenty of stupid people who can only think about one little thing with the exclusion to everything else. Those that blame everything on immigration are stupid, and i have demonstrated that, I have a job far beyond my qualifications, why can't the lazy brits find a job ? but instead they blame immigrants instead of getting off their arses. They also don't see all the other apsects to this.

1. Your case is an anecdote.

2. They may have different values then you and prefer a different future for their culture and country.

Basically, your country surrendered it's sovereignty. It's a valid position for a rational citizen to object and to bring the decision making closer to the people.

The name calling is counter productive.

(we have a similar thing going here so this is not a we-are-better-than-you post).

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on June 27, 2016, 04:55:54 pm

Corbyn's problem is that he is a bit too honest,

You are joking, aren't you?

I think Corbyn is a loony lefty, with completely idiotic policies.  BUT I did think he was a principled man, with the courage of his convictions - "This is what I believe in, and this is what I want to do."  He is also a lifelong Eurosceptic, and has voted against the EU at every turn.  Then somehow he was brow-beaten into pretending to be a remainer.  Just look at how half-arsed his campaigning was!
Had he stuck to his true feelings, he could have lead the Labour Leave campaign, and would be sitting pretty and in a position to try to enact some of his left-wing ideals in the exit process.

Honest democratic leaders follow party rules, which  in the Labour party said the policy set by the party (which was to remain in the EU) should be followed by the leader.   Corbyn could either support this or resign.   He chose to support it, and I suspect he can see dangers in leaving as well as the rest of us, so he may even have agreed this was the best policy for this referendum.  The EU has good points and bad points and he said so. Seems very principled, if not entirely in his own personal interest.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 27, 2016, 04:57:44 pm
In the short time i have taken an instrest I have met plenty of stupid people who can only think about one little thing with the exclusion to everything else. Those that blame everything on immigration are stupid, and i have demonstrated that, I have a job far beyond my qualifications, why can't the lazy brits find a job ? but instead they blame immigrants instead of getting off their arses. They also don't see all the other apsects to this.
I don't understand the whole problem with immigrants in the UK. At 5% the UK has the third lowest unemployment rate in Europe. I once read that a well running economy needs an unemployment rate of around 5%.

Maybe will be that the immigrant haven't 30 english surnames or  like enough they don't talk with british genuine accent .
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on June 27, 2016, 05:00:45 pm

Corbyn's problem is that he is a bit too honest,

You are joking, aren't you?
No.

Quote
I think Corbyn is a loony lefty, with completely idiotic policies.  BUT I did think he was a principled man, with the courage of his convictions - "This is what I believe in, and this is what I want to do."  He is also a lifelong Eurosceptic, and has voted against the EU at every turn.  Then somehow he was brow-beaten into pretending to be a remainer.  Just look at how half-arsed his campaigning was!
Had he stuck to his true feelings, he could have lead the Labour Leave campaign, and would be sitting pretty and in a position to try to enact some of his left-wing ideals in the exit process.
I agree with pretty much all you just said.

I know that Corbyn was vehemently Euroskeptic in the past but even principled politicians sometimes change their views.

BUT it doesn't actually matter whether he had some sort of epiphany over Europe or just agreed to toe the party line. Once the decision had been made that he would back the Remain campaign he should have done so wholeheartedly. His famous "I'm seven-and-a-half out of ten on Europe" comment did not inspire confidence. In fact the BBC is reporting that about half of Labour supporters were unsure what the official stance of the party was. It might be more honest for him to admit that he had come around to supporting our membership of the EU but with reservations (it also might not, but let's give the benefit of the doubt) but it did not help the campaign.



Maybe it is a new idea to treat the voters as intelligent human beings?   Instead of a lying propaganda campaign by two polarised sides of liers issuing simple-minded advertising soundbites, why not tell people the facts for and against and encourage them to think for themselves?   Blaming Corbyn for treating them as adults seems a bit perverse.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 27, 2016, 05:04:08 pm
Name calling by those who backed the losing side is not doing anyone any good. Calling everyone who voted leave a stupid racist is being heavily promoted in our media though, so go figure.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 27, 2016, 05:04:36 pm
In the short time i have taken an instrest I have met plenty of stupid people who can only think about one little thing with the exclusion to everything else. Those that blame everything on immigration are stupid, and i have demonstrated that, I have a job far beyond my qualifications, why can't the lazy brits find a job ? but instead they blame immigrants instead of getting off their arses. They also don't see all the other apsects to this.
I don't understand the whole problem with immigrants in the UK. At 5% the UK has the third lowest unemployment rate in Europe. I once read that a well running economy needs an unemployment rate of around 5%.

I don't know if the UK cooks its books on unemployment like the US but around here, the unemployment rate is wildly understated simply because people who are not actively looking for a job aren't counted.  People who are significantly underemployed are not counted.  The labor participation rate is miserable.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/02/04/myth-56-unemployment-why-us-official-rate-is-big-fat-lie.html (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/02/04/myth-56-unemployment-why-us-official-rate-is-big-fat-lie.html)
http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Labor-Force-Participation-Rate.png (http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Labor-Force-Participation-Rate.png)

One thing to watch out for on the Labor Force Participation Rate chart is the compressed scale of the Y axis.  The graph makes things look a lot worse than they are but they're still not good.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Cerebus on June 27, 2016, 05:12:11 pm
Honest democratic leaders follow party rules, which  in the Labour party said the policy set by the party (which was to remain in the EU) should be followed by the leader

As a point of information, the Labour party has traditionally worked on the lines of 'collective responsibility' for policy, so once party policy is set by member's votes at the annual conference the front bench is expected to follow it. It's a practice recently largely ignored by the presidential style of 'New Labour' but with Corbyn being a bit more old school it seems to be coming back.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 27, 2016, 06:07:18 pm
Maybe it is a new idea to treat the voters as intelligent human beings?   Instead of a lying propaganda campaign by two polarised sides of liers issuing simple-minded advertising soundbites, why not tell people the facts for and against and encourage them to think for themselves?   Blaming Corbyn for treating them as adults seems a bit perverse.
Nothing would please me more than living in a society where intelligent debate were possible in an election. But it comes over as indecisive and weak - Gordon Brown tended to have the same "fault".
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: mtdoc on June 27, 2016, 07:03:16 pm
Interesting interview with Mark Blyth. He discusses Brexit and puts it in context of the EU, EMU, globalization.  Why it's not about immigration.

Mark Blyth on EU and Brexit  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGvZil0qWPg)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 27, 2016, 07:09:27 pm
Quality is my problem with the EU. why did we admit countries like poland ? and no I am not saying that I don't want them to immigrate here, I am saying why do they feel the urge to emmigrate from poland ? so much for the EU being made up of equal countries, this was replicated with the euro.

Poland has a quite an educated workforce.
The Polish workers in the UK aren't just labourers there are lots of skilled trades too.
I would rather pay a Polish worker in the UK than most of our indigenous lazy bastards.
IMHO the real question/issue is why aren't we and educating and training out native population.
This is a problem that ALL UK governments have failed to address for decades.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 27, 2016, 07:15:01 pm
Have you heard of Rolls Royce
The motorcars division is a german company? (Bought by BMW if I am not mistaken).

The airplane division is not doing well
Quote
Rolls-Royce has issued five profit warnings in less than two years, and its share price has fallen by almost half since last April.

It still has about 50% of the global commercial aircraft jet engine market.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 27, 2016, 07:22:49 pm
Do we even need 1940's post war organisations like the EU in this century of globalisation, I think not. Most things can be sold any where in the world as long as they comply with ISO and other standards such as IEE, most things are available online as well. So to a large extent the EU could be considered redundant in the greater scheme of things.

There's a bit more to this than harmonized standards for goods. I'll wager that you're too young to have had a father that fought in the 2nd World War and we're both too young to have a father that fought in the 1st World War. Both wars started in Europe. Prior to the end of 2nd World War there was almost always a war going on somewhere in Europe. Since the formation of the various post war pan-European organizations there hasn't been a war in Europe - I doubt that is coincidence.

A lot of other things have changed as well, we are globalized, we trade it's no longer us and them unless your ignorant and/or live under a rock.

Exactly !!
SO the EU continues to spend most of it's pissing about rather than make the continent MORE competitive.
DO you think Asia gives a shit about EU regulations ?
Chinese CE mark   :-DD

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 27, 2016, 07:30:21 pm
The best form of government is a benign dictatorship by someone sufficiently wise.

The real problem with that is that dictators are rarely benign and tend to have a very idealized view of their own talent to ego ratio.

I sincerely hope the first sentence is a joke.


The problem is that there is no objective right and wrong when it comes to governance.  The idea (which is rearing it's ugly head on this site) that someone knows better what is best for someone else isn't even close to being true.  Nobody can know what other leaders, other countries and other governments will do, so the idea that someone can possess enough wisdom to be a better leader than the people can lead themselves is incorrect from the start.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dexters_lab on June 27, 2016, 07:33:48 pm
...first post in this 50 page thread  :-[

so is it safe in here or is there a shitstorm happening like everywhere else?  :scared:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 27, 2016, 07:36:22 pm
...first post in this 50 page thread  :-[

so is it safe in here or is there a shitstorm happening like everywhere else?  :scared:

Could be heading towards shitstorm :-DD.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 27, 2016, 07:38:43 pm
it's safe ;)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 27, 2016, 07:51:07 pm
it's safe ;)

Hello ZELL !!
I do hope you've left your drill at home.   :scared:

 ;D
EDIT
Forget this one. I read the comment as " is it safe".  :palm:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 27, 2016, 07:59:03 pm
DO you think Asia gives a shit about EU regulations ?
Asia has to give a shit about the regulations otherwise their stuff goes straight into the trash. In Rotterdam there used to be (or still is) a whole ship load of brand new Chinese SUVs rotting away because they are BMW X5 copies and are therefore not allowed to be sold in the EU.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jitter on June 27, 2016, 08:00:13 pm
Quality is my problem with the EU. why did we admit countries like poland ? and no I am not saying that I don't want them to immigrate here, I am saying why do they feel the urge to emmigrate from poland ? so much for the EU being made up of equal countries, this was replicated with the euro.

Poland has a quite an educated workforce.
The Polish workers in the UK aren't just labourers there are lots of skilled trades too.
I would rather pay a Polish worker in the UK than most of our indigenous lazy bastards.
IMHO the real question/issue is why aren't we and educating and training out native population.
This is a problem that ALL UK governments have failed to address for decades.

When the company I work for was taken over by another company, all of a sudden I found myself having lots of Polish colleagues. Over the years I found more or less the same thing you're saying.
When my brother was quite negative about the Poles in the building trade (which is what he is in), I told him I was grateful for their presence, for they were willing to do the overtime I wasn't and that meant I could go home after a full 40 hours workweek and actually have a life.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 27, 2016, 08:28:33 pm
Interesting interview with Mark Blyth. He discusses Brexit and puts it in context of the EU, EMU, globalization.  Why it's not about immigration.

Mark Blyth on EU and Brexit  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGvZil0qWPg)
Well, he's sure as hell right on the fact that the funds which went to Greece just wound up with their creditors.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Dr. Frank on June 27, 2016, 08:53:15 pm
BREXIT....  realized.. NOW
England is out, against Iceland, 1:2

Frank

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 27, 2016, 08:54:08 pm
Well, he's sure as hell right on the fact that the funds which went to Greece just wound up with their creditors.
What would you have expected? And the mechanism is simple. The Greeks have (had) to pay a high interest rate on the short term loans because they could no longer borrow from the internal market. The short term loans caused the Greeks economy to stabilise so the interest rates can go down and the Greeks could borrow for lower interest rates. IOW: the short term high interest rate loans have become low interest rate long term loans; it would not have made sense for the Greek to go for high interest long term loans. Either way the Greeks will probably be paying back the loans they got for the next half century if not longer.

http://graphics.wsj.com/greece-debt-timeline/ (http://graphics.wsj.com/greece-debt-timeline/)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: G0HZU on June 27, 2016, 09:04:28 pm
BREXIT....  realized.. NOW
England is out, against Iceland, 1:2

Frank


FffrrrExit!

England frozen out by Iceland.... :(
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: mtdoc on June 27, 2016, 09:05:25 pm
Either way the Greeks will probably be paying back the loans they got for the next half century if not longer.

They will not be paid back. History has shown that once a country's debt to GDP ratio exceeds 100% - the debt will not be paid back - at least not in real terms.

Greece's current debt/GDP ratio is about 175%!

If they had the ability to devalue their currency then nominal payback might be possible. They do not.

It's all about "extend and pretend" in Greece and in many other countries.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 27, 2016, 09:22:23 pm
Either way the Greeks will probably be paying back the loans they got for the next half century if not longer.
They will not be paid back. History has shown that once a country's debt to GDP ratio exceeds 100% - the debt will not be paid back - at least not in real terms.

Greece's current debt/GDP ratio is about 175%!
Yeah. We'll have to see where that goes and whether Greece is able to create a real economy this time.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 27, 2016, 09:28:27 pm
DO you think Asia gives a shit about EU regulations ?
Asia has to give a shit about the regulations otherwise their stuff goes straight into the trash. In Rotterdam there used to be (or still is) a whole ship load of brand new Chinese SUVs rotting away because they are BMW X5 copies and are therefore not allowed to be sold in the EU.

Tell that to Amazon.co.uk  :-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 27, 2016, 10:05:54 pm
This whole thread has been incredibly interesting and disgusting to watch.

For a people with a rich history of democracy, hundreds of years of "enlightenment", many of you are downright mean and barbaric to your fellow countrymen simply because they exercised their civic duties and voted in a way you disapprove of. They are called unworthy, stupid, uneducated, .......

Hitler was nicer to Jews than you were to your fellow countrymen. Thank God that you have no power whatever over other people's life. Or what damage you could have done to humanity.

You should really be ashamed of yourself.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: G0HZU on June 27, 2016, 10:37:11 pm
This whole thread has been incredibly interesting and disgusting to watch.

For a people with a rich history of democracy, hundreds of years of "enlightenment", many of you are downright mean and barbaric to your fellow countrymen simply because they exercised their civic duties and voted in a way you disapprove of. They are called unworthy, stupid, uneducated, .......

Hitler was nicer to Jews than you were to your fellow countrymen. Thank God that you have no power whatever over other people's life. Or what damage you could have done to humanity.

You should really be ashamed of yourself.

Go and get laid, dannyf... it will do you good and maybe change your outlook on life. Perhaps then we won't have to read your feeble attempts at trolling anymore  ;D
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: mtdoc on June 27, 2016, 10:59:56 pm
As usual, Matt Taibbi's observations are spot on:

The Reaction to Brexit Is the Reason Brexit Happened (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-reaction-to-brexit-is-the-reason-brexit-happened-20160627?page=3)

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 27, 2016, 11:28:01 pm
Your currency is starting to look attractive for me anyway.

If you wanted to trade you should have been in there early on Friday or Monday.  ;D
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 27, 2016, 11:36:56 pm
As usual, Matt Taibbi's observations are spot on:

The Reaction to Brexit Is the Reason Brexit Happened (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-reaction-to-brexit-is-the-reason-brexit-happened-20160627?page=3)

He got that spot on!  Anybody voting for Trump is a racist, a homophobic bigot, and an ignorant, uneducated fool!  If you don't believe that, read the Washington Post any day in the last year.  Their editors and contributors have been working overtime to promote Hillary and bash Trump and his supporters multiple times, daily!  They had no idea how angry the electorate is.  Still don't!  We used to be a nation of laws.  Not so much anymore. 

And Trump just might get elected.

A lot of people have said it and I think it's true:  We are entering a period unseen in my lifetime (70 years).  It's going to be interesting.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 27, 2016, 11:38:24 pm
Your currency is starting to look attractive for me anyway.

If you wanted to trade you should have been in there early on Friday or Monday.  ;D

I don't think the crash has stopped - there'll be other opportunities to buy even lower.  I know I have lost a metric butt-load in my 401(k)s.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 27, 2016, 11:50:42 pm
Quote
They had no idea how angry the electorate is.

Spot on.

There is a lot of similarities between Brexit leave voters, Trump and Sanders supporters: they are really really pissed off at the 50 years of careers politicians who don't give a shit about the silent majority. They want to take their countries back.

That's pretty much everywhere now. We are in some dangerous times. It wouldn't surprise me if 50 years from now we point to this as the beginning of WW3.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 27, 2016, 11:57:52 pm
Both wars started in Europe. Prior to the end of 2nd World War there was almost always a war going on somewhere in Europe. Since the formation of the various post war pan-European organizations there hasn't been a war in Europe - I doubt that is coincidence.

There's been quite a bit of war in Europe post-WW2 - Greek civil war, Hungarian revolution, Bosnian war, Slovenian war, Italy's Years of Lead, various 'stuff' with Czechoslovakia and the countries that resulted from it and which surround them.  And other conflicts.  I think the major thing that's changed post-WW2 is that we've had a growth spurt, economically, socially and culturally.  Lately, war has only been justified on the basis of response to aggression or big cultural divides and such.  But that's all a facade... I spent a lot of time in Western Ukraine and i could never have imagined war could erupt there.  It can happen anytime and anywhere - it could easily have happened due to the Greek crisis.  Part of the problem with the EU is that it's not strong enough to have real control over member countries but it's strong enough to create intolerable issues for member countries without having a mechanism or the power to resolve those issues.  For example the Greek crisis as well as the rest of the PIIGS.  The current migrant/refugee crisis.  The Turkey "issue".  General issues with the ECB and other issues which are brooding beneath the surface and for which Brexit is just one symptom.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 28, 2016, 12:08:39 am
Quote
They had no idea how angry the electorate is.

Spot on.

There is a lot of similarities between Brexit leave voters, Trump and Sanders supporters: they are really really pissed off at the 50 years of careers politicians who don't give a shit about the silent majority. They want to take their countries back.

That's pretty much everywhere now. We are in some dangerous times. It wouldn't surprise me if 50 years from now we point to this as the beginning of WW3.

I am not sure if I would be so bold as to predict WW3, but it boggles my mind how utterly stupid and self-serving politicians are.

What is the reason that the UK and USA can't immediately work on a trade deal, and have it announced within a matter of weeks?  Both countries have very similar cultures, laws, languages and societal development.  But Obama said the UK would have to go to the back of the line.  WHAT!?!?

The EU have been throwing their toys out of the pram and saying the UK needs to exit sooner than later.  Why?  The terms of article 50 are clear.  The UK has up to 2 years.  If the EU didn't like that timeline, they ought to have implemented something different.  These are politicians who are behaving out of spite and vengeance and don't really seem to give the slightest shit about what is actually better for the countries involved, or (more importantly) the actual people involved.

That's what so many don't get about Brexit and also about what's going on in the USA at the moment.  The media has been engaging in a perpetual assault on Trump.  But the fact that he's become one of the nominees and that Sanders did so well is lost on the media and politicians. 

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: retrolefty on June 28, 2016, 12:20:37 am
Your currency is starting to look attractive for me anyway.

If you wanted to trade you should have been in there early on Friday or Monday.  ;D

I don't think the crash has stopped - there'll be other opportunities to buy even lower.  I know I have lost a metric butt-load in my 401(k)s.

 You mean you actually sold off some of your 401(k) assets sense the Brexit vote results?

 Or do you mean if you sold assests today you would lose value compared to last week. Or do you feel that your investment will never recover to actually give you any long term gain over time, which is the reason these investment vehicles were created.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 28, 2016, 12:23:29 am
Quote
They had no idea how angry the electorate is.

Spot on.

There is a lot of similarities between Brexit leave voters, Trump and Sanders supporters: they are really really pissed off at the 50 years of careers politicians who don't give a shit about the silent majority. They want to take their countries back.

That's pretty much everywhere now. We are in some dangerous times. It wouldn't surprise me if 50 years from now we point to this as the beginning of WW3.

I am not sure if I would be so bold as to predict WW3, but it boggles my mind how utterly stupid and self-serving politicians are.

What is the reason that the UK and USA can't immediately work on a trade deal, and have it announced within a matter of weeks?  Both countries have very similar cultures, laws, languages and societal development.  But Obama said the UK would have to go to the back of the line.  WHAT!?!?

The EU have been throwing their toys out of the pram and saying the UK needs to exit sooner than later.  Why?  The terms of article 50 are clear.  The UK has up to 2 years.  If the EU didn't like that timeline, they ought to have implemented something different.  These are politicians who are behaving out of spite and vengeance and don't really seem to give the slightest shit about what is actually better for the countries involved, or (more importantly) the actual people involved.

That's what so many don't get about Brexit and also about what's going on in the USA at the moment.  The media has been engaging in a perpetual assault on Trump.  But the fact that he's become one of the nominees and that Sanders did so well is lost on the media and politicians.

Just to be clear, it's two years AFTER we invoke article 50
 ;D
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on June 28, 2016, 03:22:22 am
He got that spot on!  Anybody voting for Trump is a racist, a homophobic bigot, and an ignorant, uneducated fool!  If you don't believe that, read the Washington Post any day in the last year.  Their editors and contributors have been working overtime to promote Hillary and bash Trump and his supporters multiple times, daily!  They had no idea how angry the electorate is.  Still don't!  We used to be a nation of laws.  Not so much anymore. 
And Trump just might get elected.

A lot of people have said it and I think it's true:  We are entering a period unseen in my lifetime (70 years).  It's going to be interesting.

Really? :o  and american critical thinking is to actually vote for Trump?
He is a far better choice than the alternative.  First of all, he's a proven disrupter.  The status quo won't survive.  That's not entirely a bad thing.  Many foreign leaders have already made their opinions known so we know where to cut off funding.  I don't think we'll be hanging around in the Middle East and, with luck and planning, maybe we'll be out of eastern Europe before the fireworks start.

There will probably be some other disruptions in foreign relations and I'm all for that!

The alternative brings with her a pending storm.  Little Chelsea wants to be President just like her mommy and daddy.  We really don't do dynasties around here and getting this stopped in its tracks is a good idea.

Quote
There are several reasons why a rationale American citizen would prefer Trump over Hillary

Quote
I'm not worried about Trump but Hillary scares the hell out of me.  As long as the Republicans control either the House or Senate, things will probably be ok.

You could stick the very same label on anyone who votes for Hillary to! None of these are a "rational" vote as you try to make it.

But if you for a second put all that Washington post ect blabber aside and look into either one of these you get a textbook narcissist/oligarch, what kind of less-of-the-same is that? Hitler, Mossulini etc was also "disturbers".. Voting for any of these will just divide US even further but i suspect after reading your posts that is what you want?

Besides where is the "reasonable evidence" based on Trumps blabber for what Trump would/could achieve as president? Most of his promises is just wierd and even bended against the constitution. Trump on the other hand have managed to anger the Scotts at his golf course and earlier NRA with his "guns-in-the-bar-idea". What kind of ""disturbance"" was that? all it ended in was senate deadlock and the arms restriction law into the bin one more time. Trump didn't change status qou at all, he rather cemented it! And voting in Hillary would most likely end in the very same cementing!

Nor leavers nor stayers are for that complicated bureaucracy of EU, i dont understand why such a obvious thing is even used as an argument.

And now some more bedding salt into Brexit wounds.I bet players played less then optimum because of Brexout thinking on how to move money to Panama!
WARNING! FOLLOWING PICTURE MIGHT CONTAIN POOR TASTE AND MAKE YOU FEEL OFFENDED AND
CAUSE MIND BEND. IF SO COMPLAINTS MAY BE FILED TO EU COMMISSIONAIRE OF PUBLIC OFFENCES.

(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/f56c49c80b379226d5e4354f9078bc6a19c82b19/0_303_5115_3069/5115.jpg?w=460&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=4964b741eb09c3ffcef06c9daa83caa8)(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSYH9moEIQnuE4JjH-JFzX5LcCMe3qchJJDxKIWxxl-LUR_1_MK)

Note: Bearded men with horned helmets are NOT talibans or Daesh! I repeat, NOT talibans or Daesh!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 28, 2016, 04:35:40 am
Your currency is starting to look attractive for me anyway.

If you wanted to trade you should have been in there early on Friday or Monday.  ;D

I don't think the crash has stopped - there'll be other opportunities to buy even lower.  I know I have lost a metric butt-load in my 401(k)s.

 You mean you actually sold off some of your 401(k) assets sense the Brexit vote results?

 Or do you mean if you sold assests today you would lose value compared to last week. Or do you feel that your investment will never recover to actually give you any long term gain over time, which is the reason these investment vehicles were created.

No, the losses aren't 'booked'.  It's just that my balance is down quite a bit.  But, hey, I managed to recover from 2008 by just hanging tight.  I'm not actively trading so I suffer from time to time and rejoice at others.

Long term gain over the last several years is an illusion.  OTOH, I have made up for my mandatory distributions so my balance isn't declining.  That works for me.  I don't need the money, I don't really want to take the distributions but what I want doesn't matter.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 28, 2016, 04:49:55 am
You could stick the very same label on anyone who votes for Hillary to! None of these are a "rational" vote as you try to make it.

But if you for a second put all that Washington post ect blabber aside and look into either one of these you get a textbook narcissist/oligarch, what kind of less-of-the-same is that? Hitler, Mossulini etc was also "disturbers".. Voting for any of these will just divide US even further but i suspect after reading your posts that is what you want?

Besides where is the "reasonable evidence" based on Trumps blabber for what Trump would/could achieve as president? Most of his promises is just wierd and even bended against the constitution. Trump on the other hand have managed to anger the Scotts at his golf course and earlier NRA with his "guns-in-the-bar-idea". What kind of ""disturbance"" was that? all it ended in was senate deadlock and the arms restriction law into the bin one more time. Trump didn't change status qou at all, he rather cemented it! And voting in Hillary would most likely end in the very same cementing!


I have to vote!  If I don't vote, I can't bitch.  So sayeth my father a long time ago!

I would absolutely never vote for Hillary and Trump is the only other realistic choice.   There is no check box for None Of The Above.  We have a vacancy in the Supreme Court.  I would be happy with a vacancy in the Office of the President.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 28, 2016, 05:10:40 am

Quote

When my brother was quite negative about the Poles in the building trade (which is what he is in), I told him I was grateful for their presence, for they were willing to do the overtime I wasn't and that meant I could go home after a full 40 hours workweek and actually have a life.

Do I suppose that the polish will charge by extra hour ?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 28, 2016, 05:30:13 am

Quote
I have to vote!  If I don't vote, I can't bitch.  So sayeth my father a long time ago!


While  i paid taxes ,i will bitch everything i want,when i didn't pay i shut up .
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 28, 2016, 05:54:15 am
In the short time i have taken an instrest I have met plenty of stupid people who can only think about one little thing with the exclusion to everything else. Those that blame everything on immigration are stupid, and i have demonstrated that, I have a job far beyond my qualifications, why can't the lazy brits find a job ? but instead they blame immigrants instead of getting off their arses. They also don't see all the other apsects to this.

1. Your case is an anecdote.

2. They may have different values then you and prefer a different future for their culture and country.

Basically, your country surrendered it's sovereignty. It's a valid position for a rational citizen to object and to bring the decision making closer to the people.

The name calling is counter productive.

(we have a similar thing going here so this is not a we-are-better-than-you post).



No your missing my point. I am concerned about immigration but it is not THE reason i voted out. i looked at the whole think and decided on balance that we could be better off out (for better or worse). But you go out there and ask many people and you will find all they can say is immigration, and you will find they blame everything for immigration. I don't blame everything on immigration, immigration is part of the problem but most of our problems are cuased by the governments themselves and coorporates.

To focus solely on immigration is STUPID.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 28, 2016, 06:06:15 am
We have two banks that get big hits at the moment. One a Belgian bank, the other a French-Belgo one.
Both lost billions after the vote.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 28, 2016, 06:44:52 am


To focus solely on immigration is STUPID.

It's not about immigration, it's about uncontrolled immigration. Your country surrendered control of its borders. Some of your countryman think that this is very serious, you disagree or have other priorities. This is fine, but it doesn't justify the name calling IMO.

We have the same problem here, certain parts of the political spectrum try to suppress political speech by name calling and even by violence.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 28, 2016, 06:56:15 am


To focus solely on immigration is STUPID.

It's not about immigration, it's about uncontrolled immigration. Your country surrendered control of its borders. Some of your countryman think that this is very serious, you disagree or have other priorities. This is fine, but it doesn't justify the name calling IMO.

We have the same problem here, certain parts of the political spectrum try to suppress political speech by name calling and even by violence.

No what is stupid is to focus on one thing and one thing only. You make a decision to help solely one apsect despite is making other aspects worse. It's like being in a ship on fire and you sink the ship to put the fire out. the more people gravitate to the immigration argument the less they seem to actually understand and the more the answer to every argument is immigration.

Actually we have more control of ur borders than most of us realize and non EU immigration is not the fault of the EU, this is stupid. We are also whitnessing a rise in hate crime on foreign nationals, let me put 2 and 2 together because i am not stupid and ignorant.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Jeroen3 on June 28, 2016, 07:02:58 am

Quote

When my brother was quite negative about the Poles in the building trade (which is what he is in), I told him I was grateful for their presence, for they were willing to do the overtime I wasn't and that meant I could go home after a full 40 hours workweek and actually have a life.

Do I suppose that the polish will charge by extra hour ?
That is the problem. They don't get paid overtime. It's a problem around here, especially in the agricultural industry.
item (nl) (http://www.nu.nl/economie/4284580/poolse-arbeidsmigranten-worden-nog-altijd-uitgebuit.html), EN (https://translate.google.nl/translate?sl=nl&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=nl&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nu.nl%2Feconomie%2F4284580%2Fpoolse-arbeidsmigranten-worden-nog-altijd-uitgebuit.html&edit-text=&act=url)
Modern slavery.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: diyaudio on June 28, 2016, 07:25:19 am
This thread is filled with subliminal racism. disgusting.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 28, 2016, 07:29:16 am
People are angry because it affects them. But what people do not realize is that being part of a larger group the leaders of that group main concern is the welfare of the group and not so much the welfare of the individual. So that means from small to larger scale:

Your local municipality does not care about you personnaly but your neighbourhood, if building a two story elderly flat behind your house brings in more money and other benefits they don't care your house price plummets.
Your government does not care about your local town if there are larger benefits on a larger economic scale. They are going to build that carfactory at 2 miles distance from your town if they have the opportunity.
The EU does not care about individual countries perse, if there is a larger benefit for the entire EU.


Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: G7PSK on June 28, 2016, 07:33:19 am
I live in Norfolk UK and most people are not worried about immigration (which seems mostly Latvian here) Its the EU bureaucracy and crazy judgements by the EU courts that they talk about, the immigration thing seems to be  the media especial y TV who wander around until they find someone who will spout the magic word first in the interview.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on June 28, 2016, 08:13:16 am
I live in Norfolk UK and most people are not worried about immigration (which seems mostly Latvian here) Its the EU bureaucracy and crazy judgements by the EU courts that they talk about, the immigration thing seems to be  the media especial y TV who wander around until they find someone who will spout the magic word first in the interview.

It would be a shame if anyone voted against the EU based on "crazy judgements by the EU courts",  because the European Court of Human Rights is absolutely nothing to do with the EU, apart from being based in the same continent.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: G7PSK on June 28, 2016, 08:33:46 am
I live in Norfolk UK and most people are not worried about immigration (which seems mostly Latvian here) Its the EU bureaucracy and crazy judgements by the EU courts that they talk about, the immigration thing seems to be  the media especial y TV who wander around until they find someone who will spout the magic word first in the interview.

It would be a shame if anyone voted against the EU based on "crazy judgements by the EU courts",  because the European Court of Human Rights is absolutely nothing to do with the EU, apart from being based in the same continent.
But people see it as symptomatic of the whole problem of foreign interference in UK sovereignty. It is also the very same court that uses the European human rights act to keep us from deporting very dangerous people back to where they came from.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 28, 2016, 08:40:46 am
But people see it as symptomatic of the whole problem of foreign interference in UK sovereignty. It is also the very same court that uses the European human rights act to keep us from deporting very dangerous people back to where they came from.
I don't know about that, the biggest problem our country is facing sending illegal immigrants or economical immigrants that did not gain their visum back to their country of origin is that this country does not want them back and refuses to let them in. So you can't sent them back! That is not going to be solved with your country leaving the EU, it is getting worse, the EU will not accept them either  ;)
Besides there are countries that did close their borders and do not accept any immigrants, this is ofcourse not going well in negotiations with the other countries but obviously it could have been done.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: VK3DRB on June 28, 2016, 09:00:26 am
The poms leaving the EU is contagious. I heard AUSTRALIA is considering leaving the AU.

And rename our country to STRALIA.  :-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: VK3DRB on June 28, 2016, 09:37:06 am
I think the Brexit is a lot more than leaving the EU. Many people in the Western world have have a gut full of slick salesmen politicians who do not represent the people who voted them in but represent other interests.

In Australia it is illegal to telemarket. Except for our politicians who live by a different set of rules. Our government created a law to allow politicians to make telemarketing phone calls on private citizens. Just tonight I got two dickheads call me on the phone - a recording from the out-of-touch Prime Minister Turnbull  and some Labor Party drone earbashing the listener on how to vote in the federal election coming up. Like the Indian telemarketers, they tend to call when people are settling down to dinner around 6-7pm. As a result, I will not be voting for either of these dickheads or their parties. Politicians think they have the God given right to invade your home, your space, your time and your privacy.

Did the politicians in the UK spruik their wares about staying or leaving the EU by making unsolicited phone calls?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on June 28, 2016, 09:57:17 am
This whole thread has been incredibly interesting and disgusting to watch.

For a people with a rich history of democracy, hundreds of years of "enlightenment", many of you are downright mean and barbaric to your fellow countrymen simply because they exercised their civic duties and voted in a way you disapprove of. They are called unworthy, stupid, uneducated, .......

Hitler was nicer to Jews than you were to your fellow countrymen. Thank God that you have no power whatever over other people's life. Or what damage you could have done to humanity.

You should really be ashamed of yourself.
If you're going to criticize people for name-calling maybe you shouldn't compare them to Hitler in the next sentence? Just sayin'
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on June 28, 2016, 10:16:03 am
I live in Norfolk UK and most people are not worried about immigration (which seems mostly Latvian here) Its the EU bureaucracy and crazy judgements by the EU courts that they talk about, the immigration thing seems to be  the media especial y TV who wander around until they find someone who will spout the magic word first in the interview.
It would be a shame if anyone voted against the EU based on "crazy judgements by the EU courts",  because the European Court of Human Rights is absolutely nothing to do with the EU, apart from being based in the same continent.
But people see it as symptomatic of the whole problem of foreign interference in UK sovereignty. It is also the very same court that uses the European human rights act to keep us from deporting very dangerous people back to where they came from.
The universal declaration of human rights has its roots in the magna carta in which the once proud English people demanded certain unalienable rights from the tyrannical King John of England. Forcing the King to renounce certain rights, respect certain legal procedures and accept that his will could be bound by the law. It has very much inspired the american constitution and bill of rights. The special Universal Declaration of Human Rights Drafting Committee was chaired by Eleanor Roosevelt. It is a document everyone should be proud of but especially the British and Americans.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on June 28, 2016, 10:23:58 am
And Trump just might get elected.
(http://ih1.redbubble.net/image.169655223.5574/flat,800x800,075,f.u3.jpg)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on June 28, 2016, 10:37:39 am
I live in Norfolk UK and most people are not worried about immigration (which seems mostly Latvian here) Its the EU bureaucracy and crazy judgements by the EU courts that they talk about, the immigration thing seems to be  the media especial y TV who wander around until they find someone who will spout the magic word first in the interview.

It would be a shame if anyone voted against the EU based on "crazy judgements by the EU courts",  because the European Court of Human Rights is absolutely nothing to do with the EU, apart from being based in the same continent.


But people see it as symptomatic of the whole problem of foreign interference in UK sovereignty. It is also the very same court that uses the European human rights act to keep us from deporting very dangerous people back to where they came from.


But voting to leave one organisation because you don't like being a member of an entirely separate organisation suggests a certain lack of clarity of thought.   
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 28, 2016, 11:26:06 am
I live in Norfolk UK and most people are not worried about immigration (which seems mostly Latvian here) Its the EU bureaucracy and crazy judgements by the EU courts that they talk about, the immigration thing seems to be  the media especial y TV who wander around until they find someone who will spout the magic word first in the interview.

It would be a shame if anyone voted against the EU based on "crazy judgements by the EU courts",  because the European Court of Human Rights is absolutely nothing to do with the EU, apart from being based in the same continent.

As far as I'm aware the EU courts have the final word.
If not why did it take UK a decade to get rig of one of our terrorist nut jobs.
They found in favour of him on a number of occasions.   |O
 
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on June 28, 2016, 11:39:54 am
I live in Norfolk UK and most people are not worried about immigration (which seems mostly Latvian here) Its the EU bureaucracy and crazy judgements by the EU courts that they talk about, the immigration thing seems to be  the media especial y TV who wander around until they find someone who will spout the magic word first in the interview.

It would be a shame if anyone voted against the EU based on "crazy judgements by the EU courts",  because the European Court of Human Rights is absolutely nothing to do with the EU, apart from being based in the same continent.



As far as I'm aware the EU courts have the final word.
If not why did it take UK a decade to get rig of one of our terrorist nut jobs.
They found in favour of him on a number of occasions.   |O


Well I'll say it again:   the European Court of Human Rights, set up post-war by treaty (edit:  1953, I looked it up) as a result of the European Convention of Human Rights, is nothing whatever to do with the EU.   They both involve European countries, but that is not surprising and also applies to the Euro 2016 football which is also not part of the EU.  I note the Brexit vote did not enable us to beat Iceland either.



Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 28, 2016, 11:43:46 am
There's a European Court of Justice, judging over laws related to treaties of the EU.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 28, 2016, 11:45:09 am

The universal declaration of human rights has its roots in the magna carta in which the once proud English people demanded certain unalienable rights from the tyrannical King John of England. Forcing the King to renounce certain rights, respect certain legal procedures and accept that his will could be bound by the law. It has very much inspired the american constitution and bill of rights. The special Universal Declaration of Human Rights Drafting Committee was chaired by Eleanor Roosevelt. It is a document everyone should be proud of but especially the British and Americans.

I was not as far sighted as that, it gave the nobles rights with respect to the king. The nobles could still kick their surps up the arse whenever they felt like it.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on June 28, 2016, 11:47:59 am
There's a European Court of Justice, judging over laws related to treaties of the EU.

There is indeed.  It does not increase our treaty obligations but in the case of dispute it can decide whether we have met them.  Are there any ECJ decisions you feel have been harmful to us?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on June 28, 2016, 11:50:20 am

The universal declaration of human rights has its roots in the magna carta in which the once proud English people demanded certain unalienable rights from the tyrannical King John of England. Forcing the King to renounce certain rights, respect certain legal procedures and accept that his will could be bound by the law. It has very much inspired the american constitution and bill of rights. The special Universal Declaration of Human Rights Drafting Committee was chaired by Eleanor Roosevelt. It is a document everyone should be proud of but especially the British and Americans.

I was not as far sighted as that, it gave the nobles rights with respect to the king. The nobles could still kick their surps up the arse whenever they felt like it.


Yes, which goes some way to explain the French and American revolutions.   We haven't had one yet, which explains a lot.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on June 28, 2016, 12:34:05 pm
The universal declaration of human rights has its roots in the magna carta in which the once proud English people demanded certain unalienable rights from the tyrannical King John of England. Forcing the King to renounce certain rights, respect certain legal procedures and accept that his will could be bound by the law. It has very much inspired the american constitution and bill of rights. The special Universal Declaration of Human Rights Drafting Committee was chaired by Eleanor Roosevelt. It is a document everyone should be proud of but especially the British and Americans.
I was not as far sighted as that, it gave the nobles rights with respect to the king. The nobles could still kick their surps up the arse whenever they felt like it.
Considering it was signed 1215 I would say it was very far sighted indeed, even if it still allowed "the nobles to kick the surps up the arse". What's sad and ironic is seeing an English person complain about having their governments sovereignty being limited by human rights. The declaration of human rights is an English invention and something to be proud of.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 28, 2016, 12:53:28 pm
"Well I'll say it again:   the European Court of Human Rights, set up post-war by treaty (edit:  1953, I looked it up) as a result of the European Convention of Human Rights, is nothing whatever to do with the EU. "

I think you are correct on that but too literal , seeing the trees but not the forest kind of literal.

If you step back, the whole thing is about loading control of your own country,  having someone unconnected to your community imposing their values onto you.

Whether the commission is EU or not is unimportant to understanding of the anger.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: CJay on June 28, 2016, 01:21:50 pm
Some days I'm ashamed to be British, any space in 'stralia?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on June 28, 2016, 01:22:28 pm
Yeah ... We've got a bit out back...... :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 28, 2016, 01:53:12 pm
I live in Norfolk UK and most people are not worried about immigration (which seems mostly Latvian here) Its the EU bureaucracy and crazy judgements by the EU courts that they talk about, the immigration thing seems to be  the media especial y TV who wander around until they find someone who will spout the magic word first in the interview.

It would be a shame if anyone voted against the EU based on "crazy judgements by the EU courts",  because the European Court of Human Rights is absolutely nothing to do with the EU, apart from being based in the same continent.



As far as I'm aware the EU courts have the final word.
If not why did it take UK a decade to get rig of one of our terrorist nut jobs.
They found in favour of him on a number of occasions.   |O


Well I'll say it again:   the European Court of Human Rights, set up post-war by treaty (edit:  1953, I looked it up) as a result of the European Convention of Human Rights, is nothing whatever to do with the EU.   They both involve European countries, but that is not surprising and also applies to the Euro 2016 football which is also not part of the EU.  I note the Brexit vote did not enable us to beat Iceland either.
Then if you looked it up you will know that THE highest court in the EU is the ECJ.
The ECJ tends to accept precedents set by the ECHR.
There are also plans for the EU to accept fully the ECHR.
Who gives a shit about football ?
I suggest you go look up a few more things.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: G7PSK on June 28, 2016, 03:25:35 pm
https://youtu.be/woaS1b_seEM
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kalvin on June 28, 2016, 03:29:06 pm
If you think the decision process involved in the Brexit-vote (whether vote for "Leave" or "Remain") for each and every voter, and compare it to the forum posts regarding designing a simple power supply "I need to build an adjustable lab power supply" or designing a simple active load "I want to build a simple active load using a MOSFET and op amp" there are quite a lot of similarities. People want quick and fast solutions without having to think too much.

You may say that the task of designing a simple power supply or active load seems pretty simple. But in reality it is actually pretty difficult and you need to have rather good knowledge about the electronics in order to get that right, not ending with a oscillating design or a design with the magic smoke coming out. The task will be very difficult when you need to have it right at first try, no second design allowed, similar to the Brexit-vote.

Typically the designs are based on the simplified application notes or the designs found floating in the Internet which are missing the needed circuit elements to make the design stable and robust. Butt the designer doesn't really really have the knowledge and understanding that is needed in order to make a judgment what is a good design. Actually the designer with limited knowledge and experience typically have a genuine feeling that they do know how to design it properly, and only at later stage find out that the are lacking the needed knowledge.

Similar thing with this Brexit-vote: Very few voters really understand the big picture, how the things are interrelated, how the decision is really going to affect the voter, his/her family, and how the complex society and economics work in general. The voters want to have a simple, quick-fix for the current problem like immigration, current-government-suck, NHS needs more funding, and do not see how their decision will affect their lives and the general economics tomorrow. And the voters may really genuinely think that they have all the information needed to make the right decision.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 28, 2016, 03:53:52 pm
Similar thing with this Brexit-vote: Very few voters really understand the big picture, how the things are interrelated, how the decision is really going to affect the voter, his/her family, and how the complex society and economics work in general. The voters want to have a simple, quick-fix for the current problem like immigration, current-government-suck, NHS needs more funding, and do not see how their decision will affect their lives and the general economics tomorrow. And the voters may really genuinely think that they have all the information needed to make the right decision.

Every single voter understood the issue from their point of view and they cared enough to vote.  No, they can't see the big picture - that's the domain of politicians.  What they see is a country losing sovereignty or at least control of its borders.  Perhaps they are unemployed, underemployed or displaced by outsiders.  Perhaps they can't afford a house.  Perhaps they feel their living situation hasn't improved and maybe even deteriorated.  They are angry and somebody let them vote!  And they voted exactly the way they felt.

That's either the blessing or the curse of democracy.  People get to vote and they can vote any way they wish.  And everybody votes (or should vote) in their own self-interest.  It's their vote, they can do anything they want with it.

The Remain folks were so certain of a win that they didn't bother to present their case to the voters.  Clearly, nobody would vote to leave!  Until they did...  The Remain campaign didn't present enough information for people to look past their immediate self-interest and toward their future self-interest.  Whose fault is that?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 28, 2016, 04:20:31 pm
If you think the decision process involved in the Brexit-vote (whether vote for "Leave" or "Remain") for each and every voter, and compare it to the forum posts regarding designing a simple power supply "I need to build an adjustable lab power supply" or designing a simple active load "I want to build a simple active load using a MOSFET and op amp" there are quite a lot of similarities. People want quick and fast solutions without having to think too much.

You may say that the task of designing a simple power supply or active load seems pretty simple. But in reality it is actually pretty difficult and you need to have rather good knowledge about the electronics in order to get that right, not ending with a oscillating design or a design with the magic smoke coming out. The task will be very difficult when you need to have it right at first try, no second design allowed, similar to the Brexit-vote.

Typically the designs are based on the simplified application notes or the designs found floating in the Internet which are missing the needed circuit elements to make the design stable and robust. Butt the designer doesn't really really have the knowledge and understanding that is needed in order to make a judgment what is a good design. Actually the designer with limited knowledge and experience typically have a genuine feeling that they do know how to design it properly, and only at later stage find out that the are lacking the needed knowledge.

Similar thing with this Brexit-vote: Very few voters really understand the big picture, how the things are interrelated, how the decision is really going to affect the voter, his/her family, and how the complex society and economics work in general. The voters want to have a simple, quick-fix for the current problem like immigration, current-government-suck, NHS needs more funding, and do not see how their decision will affect their lives and the general economics tomorrow. And the voters may really genuinely think that they have all the information needed to make the right decision.
Nice analogy. I'll re-use it from a different slant if you don't mind:

Similar thing with the EU: it doesn't work quite the way they want it, so they keep modifying the design without paying attention to the tolerances of the components. Then the magic smoke escapes and they don't understand why.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 28, 2016, 04:20:46 pm
<PART 1 of Nigel Farage post-Brexit EU Parliament Speech> video.

Number 20 tries to leave the village. Will he make it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW-bFGzNMXw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW-bFGzNMXw)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 28, 2016, 04:35:05 pm
If you think the decision process involved in the Brexit-vote (whether vote for "Leave" or "Remain") for each and every voter, and compare it to the forum posts regarding designing a simple power supply "I need to build an adjustable lab power supply" or designing a simple active load "I want to build a simple active load using a MOSFET and op amp" there are quite a lot of similarities. People want quick and fast solutions without having to think too much.

You may say that the task of designing a simple power supply or active load seems pretty simple. But in reality it is actually pretty difficult and you need to have rather good knowledge about the electronics in order to get that right, not ending with a oscillating design or a design with the magic smoke coming out. The task will be very difficult when you need to have it right at first try, no second design allowed, similar to the Brexit-vote.

Typically the designs are based on the simplified application notes or the designs found floating in the Internet which are missing the needed circuit elements to make the design stable and robust. Butt the designer doesn't really really have the knowledge and understanding that is needed in order to make a judgment what is a good design. Actually the designer with limited knowledge and experience typically have a genuine feeling that they do know how to design it properly, and only at later stage find out that the are lacking the needed knowledge.

Similar thing with this Brexit-vote: Very few voters really understand the big picture, how the things are interrelated, how the decision is really going to affect the voter, his/her family, and how the complex society and economics work in general. The voters want to have a simple, quick-fix for the current problem like immigration, current-government-suck, NHS needs more funding, and do not see how their decision will affect their lives and the general economics tomorrow. And the voters may really genuinely think that they have all the information needed to make the right decision.

But the main point is that we do it ourselves.
If we don't like out Gov we can get rid of them.
That cannot be done within the EU.
Let's not forget that Cameron tried to voice his concerns and got very little.
I'm sure there will be stormy waters ahead but we'll manage.
The UK has a lot going for it especially when the chips are down.
The EU will either change its ways or it's doomed.

3DB

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 28, 2016, 04:39:33 pm
Some days I'm ashamed to be British, any space in 'stralia?

Apply !!
I believe they will let you in if they think you will be useful to OZ.
Seems like a good way to do it.
UNLIKE the EU !!
 ;D
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: CJay on June 28, 2016, 04:50:34 pm
Some days I'm ashamed to be British, any space in 'stralia?

Apply !!
I believe they will let you in if they think you will be useful to OZ.
Seems like a good way to do it.
UNLIKE the EU !!
 ;D
[/quote

I didn't say the EU doesn't have its faults, it does, it has many, but the nasty racist undercurrents are becoming mainstream and after campaigns from both camps based on lies, I am not sure I want to bring up my children here any more.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 28, 2016, 04:54:41 pm
<PART 1 of Nigel Farage post-Brexit EU Parliament Speech> video.

Number 20 tries to leave the village. Will he make it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW-bFGzNMXw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW-bFGzNMXw)

NO COMMENT
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Andy Watson on June 28, 2016, 04:56:54 pm
Some days I'm ashamed to be British, any space in 'stralia?

Apply !!
I believe they will let you in if they think you will be useful to OZ.
Seems like a good way to do it.
UNLIKE the EU !!
 ;D
[/quote

I didn't say the EU doesn't have its faults, it does, it has many, but the nasty racist undercurrents are becoming mainstream and after campaigns from both camps based on lies, I am not sure I want to bring up my children here any more.
+1.
I'd like to come too :) But the last time I investigated I was already 10 years over the age limit :(

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: CJay on June 28, 2016, 05:05:22 pm
Some days I'm ashamed to be British, any space in 'stralia?

Apply !!
I believe they will let you in if they think you will be useful to OZ.
Seems like a good way to do it.
UNLIKE the EU !!
 ;D
[/quote

I didn't say the EU doesn't have its faults, it does, it has many, but the nasty racist undercurrents are becoming mainstream and after campaigns from both camps based on lies, I am not sure I want to bring up my children here any more.
+1.
I'd like to come too :) But the last time I investigated I was already 10 years over the age limit :(

Not far away from it myself. Canada also seems an option.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 28, 2016, 05:09:59 pm
https://youtu.be/woaS1b_seEM

The man is an arsehole. He along with all other politicians should be done for fraud. Until fraudalent claims in politics are legal there will be no good politics.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 28, 2016, 05:28:03 pm
I've just about had this thread.
People don't want to hear the truth.
Would you vote for someone who said you'll  be worse off for 10 years.
Would you vote for someone who told you NOT to accrue lots of credit card debt.
etc etc.
Farage is no worse than than the rest of them.
He was at least clear and consistent  on his views of the EU.
He will also be proven right on the EU's future unless they change their ways.
Do some research into the history of the EU.You might find it interesting.

 |O 

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 28, 2016, 05:29:30 pm
the man is a fraud
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 28, 2016, 05:30:13 pm
the man is a fraud

Explain why.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 28, 2016, 05:32:52 pm
the man is a fraud

Explain why.

he has lied and holds a post in the eu he does not even fullfill. his speach was intentionally divisive and he has been caught out no end telling lies and making statistics up. He must be the despair of his own advisers and party office who have had to admit they don't know where he got certain figures from and that was before the EU campaign.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 28, 2016, 05:43:30 pm
the man is a fraud

Explain why.

he has lied and holds a post in the eu he does not even fullfill. his speach was intentionally divisive and he has been caught out no end telling lies and making statistics up. He must be the despair of his own advisers and party office who have had to admit they don't know where he got certain figures from and that was before the EU campaign.

Perhaps he got some of them from the official leave campaign,which he wasn't a member of.
Anyway, forget Farage WE are LEAVING the EU.
Let's see how devisive the EU are now that we're leaving.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 28, 2016, 05:45:17 pm
the man is a fraud

Explain why.

he has lied and holds a post in the eu he does not even fullfill. his speach was intentionally divisive and he has been caught out no end telling lies and making statistics up. He must be the despair of his own advisers and party office who have had to admit they don't know where he got certain figures from and that was before the EU campaign.

Perhaps he got some of them from the official leave campaign,which he wasn't a member of.
Anyway, forget Farage WE are LEAVING the EU.
Let's see how devisive the EU are now that we're leaving.



Your first line indicates you did not hear what I said, I'm talking about over a year ago. I think it was during the scottish referendum.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 28, 2016, 06:11:06 pm
the man is a fraud

Explain why.

he has lied and holds a post in the eu he does not even fullfill. his speach was intentionally divisive and he has been caught out no end telling lies and making statistics up. He must be the despair of his own advisers and party office who have had to admit they don't know where he got certain figures from and that was before the EU campaign.

Perhaps he got some of them from the official leave campaign,which he wasn't a member of.
Anyway, forget Farage WE are LEAVING the EU.
Let's see how devisive the EU are now that we're leaving.



Your first line indicates you did not hear what I said, I'm talking about over a year ago. I think it was during the scottish referendum.
To be honest,like I said earlier I've had it with this whole thread.
I'm Scottish so I know all about fear campaigns and lies.
I voted for the SNP
Scotland voted to remain.
The SNP want to stay in the EU.
I like Europe I voted to join the EU.
I worked closely with Germans for years.
I've spent a lot of time in Germany and have lived and worked all over Europe and the rest of world.
I can't be arsed fully explaining my views on the EU
I believe the EU is unfit for the world we live in now.
The whole reason for it's inception relates to Nazi Germany and mainland Europe.
If they had half a brain they would have given Cameron more when he went to see them. Then perhaps the UK wouldn't have voted out.
I'm sure in the long term the UK will have a brighter future OUT of the EU.



Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: CJay on June 28, 2016, 06:20:33 pm
I've just about had this thread.
People don't want to hear the truth.
Would you vote for someone who said you'll  be worse off for 10 years.
Would you vote for someone who told you NOT to accrue lots of credit card debt.
etc etc.
Farage is no worse than than the rest of them.
He was at least clear and consistent  on his views of the EU.
He will also be proven right on the EU's future unless they change their ways.
Do some research into the history of the EU.You might find it interesting.

 |O

Maybe consistent on his views of the EU but the man twists and turns in the wind whenever he's asked to substantiate a claim, he's been caught lying, on camera, many times and has denied statements that he was shown making  on national television.

You may find it instructive to take a look on archive.org to see the lies fall away from the leave campaign's website as they were knocked down one by one, similarly from the UKIP website.

I'm sure a google search for Farage lies would be similarly instructive.

I agree, human nature is a terrible thing and yes, it's difficult for most humans to see beyond the end of their nose. Farage especially as the smoke from his pants and the fact that his nose is now probably two continents further away than it was three months ago...

 

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 28, 2016, 06:57:48 pm
I've just about had this thread.
People don't want to hear the truth.
Would you vote for someone who said you'll  be worse off for 10 years.
Would you vote for someone who told you NOT to accrue lots of credit card debt.
etc etc.
Farage is no worse than than the rest of them.
He was at least clear and consistent  on his views of the EU.
He will also be proven right on the EU's future unless they change their ways.
Do some research into the history of the EU.You might find it interesting.

 |O

Maybe consistent on his views of the EU but the man twists and turns in the wind whenever he's asked to substantiate a claim, he's been caught lying, on camera, many times and has denied statements that he was shown making  on national television.

You may find it instructive to take a look on archive.org to see the lies fall away from the leave campaign's website as they were knocked down one by one, similarly from the UKIP website.

I'm sure a google search for Farage lies would be similarly instructive.

I agree, human nature is a terrible thing and yes, it's difficult for most humans to see beyond the end of their nose. Farage especially as the smoke from his pants and the fact that his nose is now probably two continents further away than it was three months ago...

Didn't you want more democracy? So now you don't cry
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 28, 2016, 07:15:50 pm
the man is a fraud

Explain why.

he has lied and holds a post in the eu he does not even fullfill. his speach was intentionally divisive and he has been caught out no end telling lies and making statistics up. He must be the despair of his own advisers and party office who have had to admit they don't know where he got certain figures from and that was before the EU campaign.

Perhaps he got some of them from the official leave campaign,which he wasn't a member of.
Anyway, forget Farage WE are LEAVING the EU.
Let's see how devisive the EU are now that we're leaving.



Your first line indicates you did not hear what I said, I'm talking about over a year ago. I think it was during the scottish referendum.
To be honest,like I said earlier I've had it with this whole thread.
I'm Scottish so I know all about fear campaigns and lies.
I voted for the SNP
Scotland voted to remain.
The SNP want to stay in the EU.
I like Europe I voted to join the EU.
I worked closely with Germans for years.
I've spent a lot of time in Germany and have lived and worked all over Europe and the rest of world.
I can't be arsed fully explaining my views on the EU
I believe the EU is unfit for the world we live in now.
The whole reason for it's inception relates to Nazi Germany and mainland Europe.
If they had half a brain they would have given Cameron more when he went to see them. Then perhaps the UK wouldn't have voted out.
I'm sure in the long term the UK will have a brighter future OUT of the EU.





and yet the SNP want out of the Uk while wanting in the EU. They are their own special little version of UKIP. I lived in italy for 14 years, I don't have a problem with immigrants per se but fact is given a chace to choose there are less than a handful of couties any immigrant or asylum seeker want to go, and we happen to be one of them, god knows why and our land is not limitless, as it is our supermarkets would be empty 3 days after closing filexstoe port....... they aren't camping on our border in france for nothing, they are in europe, what is their problem ?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: CJay on June 28, 2016, 07:34:39 pm
I've just about had this thread.
People don't want to hear the truth.
Would you vote for someone who said you'll  be worse off for 10 years.
Would you vote for someone who told you NOT to accrue lots of credit card debt.
etc etc.
Farage is no worse than than the rest of them.
He was at least clear and consistent  on his views of the EU.
He will also be proven right on the EU's future unless they change their ways.
Do some research into the history of the EU.You might find it interesting.

 |O

Maybe consistent on his views of the EU but the man twists and turns in the wind whenever he's asked to substantiate a claim, he's been caught lying, on camera, many times and has denied statements that he was shown making  on national television.

You may find it instructive to take a look on archive.org to see the lies fall away from the leave campaign's website as they were knocked down one by one, similarly from the UKIP website.

I'm sure a google search for Farage lies would be similarly instructive.

I agree, human nature is a terrible thing and yes, it's difficult for most humans to see beyond the end of their nose. Farage especially as the smoke from his pants and the fact that his nose is now probably two continents further away than it was three months ago...

Didn't you want more democracy? So now you don't cry

I was happy with the amount we had and still do have, I'm not crying about the result, just at the lies told and believed by both sides which have lead to directly attributed racist abuse and attacks against immigrants from within and outside the EU already.

We can leave the economic problems and immense cost of the burocratic wrangling until later.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: retrolefty on June 28, 2016, 07:44:21 pm
I've just about had this thread.
People don't want to hear the truth.
Would you vote for someone who said you'll  be worse off for 10 years.
Would you vote for someone who told you NOT to accrue lots of credit card debt.
etc etc.
Farage is no worse than than the rest of them.
He was at least clear and consistent  on his views of the EU.
He will also be proven right on the EU's future unless they change their ways.
Do some research into the history of the EU.You might find it interesting.

 |O

Maybe consistent on his views of the EU but the man twists and turns in the wind whenever he's asked to substantiate a claim, he's been caught lying, on camera, many times and has denied statements that he was shown making  on national television.

You may find it instructive to take a look on archive.org to see the lies fall away from the leave campaign's website as they were knocked down one by one, similarly from the UKIP website.

I'm sure a google search for Farage lies would be similarly instructive.

I agree, human nature is a terrible thing and yes, it's difficult for most humans to see beyond the end of their nose. Farage especially as the smoke from his pants and the fact that his nose is now probably two continents further away than it was three months ago...

 OMG a politician telling 'lies' to try and gain or remain in office and exercise influence with voters. Hope it never happens here in the States.  :-DD

 I see no reason any politician needs to be smarter or more honest then the average voter.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 28, 2016, 07:50:41 pm
I've just about had this thread.
People don't want to hear the truth.
Would you vote for someone who said you'll  be worse off for 10 years.
Would you vote for someone who told you NOT to accrue lots of credit card debt.
etc etc.
Farage is no worse than than the rest of them.
He was at least clear and consistent  on his views of the EU.
He will also be proven right on the EU's future unless they change their ways.
Do some research into the history of the EU.You might find it interesting.

 |O

Maybe consistent on his views of the EU but the man twists and turns in the wind whenever he's asked to substantiate a claim, he's been caught lying, on camera, many times and has denied statements that he was shown making  on national television.

You may find it instructive to take a look on archive.org to see the lies fall away from the leave campaign's website as they were knocked down one by one, similarly from the UKIP website.

I'm sure a google search for Farage lies would be similarly instructive.

I agree, human nature is a terrible thing and yes, it's difficult for most humans to see beyond the end of their nose. Farage especially as the smoke from his pants and the fact that his nose is now probably two continents further away than it was three months ago...

 OMG a politician telling 'lies' to try and gain or remain in office and exercise influence with voters. Hope it never happens here in the States.  :-DD

 I see no reason any politician needs to be smarter or more honest then the average voter.


This bloke has done a bit more than take the piddle. Normal politicians exagerate facts and mis use statistics. this guy makes crap up on the hoof. He caimed he would resign if he did not win the last general election, he back tracked on that in hours after a rumor he was going to take a break. I was at the count for the last election and the UKIP lot were passing news between them and were hoping their beloved leader would not resign. The word was "he taking a break but the important thing is he's not resigned". The man is a farce and frankly I'd have had him removed from the Eu parliament when he made that speech. UK politicians get kicked out of the Uk parliament for the day for less.

You see according to him scotland can't afford to leave the UK because over 50% claim benefits. By benefits most people mean unemployment but this was a figure that included pensions, housing susidies and every possible state ghand out that just happened to be the same as the amount in england.

People are claiming about the labour parrty that a cult is a bad thing, that is not a cult, that is people uniting around one of the few honest politicians in a ling time, UKIP is a cult.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on June 28, 2016, 08:02:54 pm
If we don't like out Gov we can get rid of them.
That cannot be done within the EU.
Let's not forget that Cameron tried to voice his concerns and got very little.
I'm sure there will be stormy waters ahead but we'll manage.
Of course we can. Or who do you think we are? Is it you, your family, your village, your county, England, the United Kindom, the European Union, the people of Earth or the Universe?. The only "we" that can replace the UK government is the people of the entire UK, it's the same with the European union of course, it works on the European level. A single country can't be allowed to decide over all the other member states, and non-member states have no influence at all.

The member states of the European union are all democracies, we vote for our governments and they send their representatives to the Council of Ministers. We also vote directly for our representatives in the European Parliament. So yes, if the people of Europe doesn't like their MEPs or the council we can definitely get rid of them. The English are as much to blame for all the shortcomings of EU as everyone else. EU is a work in progress, it will improve as long as people vote sensibly (which seems less probable today I'll admit).

Will you now allow the Scottish to leave the UK? How about Gibraltar, Northern Ireland or Wales? Can the Scottish people get rid of the Gov in Westminster? How about brits under the age of 50? and so on...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 28, 2016, 08:14:37 pm


Will you now allow the Scottish to leave the UK? How about Gibraltar, Northern Ireland or Wales? Can the Scottish people get rid of the Gov in Westminster? How about brits under the age of 50? and so on...

The problem with Scotland is that they are beyond being realistic. Their independence referendum was about as bad as the one for the EU. Although they did go into the land of ludicrous. They "decided" that they will break away from the UK but that they would keep the pound sterling as their currency. They didn't ask they decided. Naturally we said no. They also "decided" that they would automatically remain a part of the EU. The EU turnaround and said don't be stupid the rules already exist for this and they clearly state that any new nation must have existed for a certain amount of time and have a proven track record economically you don't just get to join because you have "decided". They have made as much preparation to leave the UK as we had done to leave the EU in fact probably less given that all of their efforts for preparation were put into fantasies. Personally I think we should have had a vote as well on Scotland remaining or leaving and I'd have voted for them to leave because I'm getting fed up with the Scottish blaming England for all of their problems. The North of England suffers the same problems as Scotland the further north from London you go the worse things get. Scotland's problem is not England it's Westminster. If we are going to have an internal referendum of this sort it should be that the city of London becomes an independent state but the Scottish particularly Scottish politicians don't seem to have very much in the way of logical thought cells. The only thought they can conjure up is "let's get the bastards". The SNP state about the same rubbish that UKIP do.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 28, 2016, 08:51:17 pm
If they had half a brain they would have given Cameron more when he went to see them. Then perhaps the UK wouldn't have voted out.
Why? Why should your country that already had a status aparte from all other countries be again treated differently from other countries?
Do you think you should be treated differently than your neighbour?
Lets face it UK has always had a problem with the EU but it is not all the EU fault it is also because you never ever really joined and felt as if you belonged. You never choose the euro. So it was a matter of when you would leave instead of if you would leave. So be it but don't blame those that wanted you in their midst for not giving again more different or better deals than other members because that is saying "look we are special and deserve more then everyone else".
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on June 28, 2016, 08:54:40 pm
The problem with Scotland is that they are beyond being realistic. Their independence referendum was about as bad as the one for the EU. Although they did go into the land of ludicrous. They "decided" that they will break away from the UK but that they would keep the pound sterling as their currency. They didn't ask they decided. Naturally we said no. They also "decided" that they would automatically remain a part of the EU. The EU turnaround and said don't be stupid the rules already exist for this and they clearly state that any new nation must have existed for a certain amount of time and have a proven track record economically you don't just get to join because you have "decided". They have made as much preparation to leave the UK as we had done to leave the EU in fact probably less given that all of their efforts for preparation were put into fantasies. Personally I think we should have had a vote as well on Scotland remaining or leaving and I'd have voted for them to leave because I'm getting fed up with the Scottish blaming England for all of their problems.
So all of the UK should get to vote if Scotland is allowed to leave? Shouldn't it just be up to the Scottish, just like leaving EU is up to the people of each member state?

EU only said no to Scotland because nobody wanted a divided Europe (and as a courtesy to the UK), but the picture is very different now that the UK is thinking about leaving. The EU might just change their mind about letting an independent Scotland join, why shouldn't we? Scotland can either mint their own pound and tie it to the British pound or they can adopt the Euro. The UK is going to bend over backwards in order to get access to the EU market and once a trade agreement is in place it would also apply to Scotland so no problem for the Scottish to continue trading with the UK either (and they will be backed by EU in any negotiations with the UK). Lots of scientist and businesses that would rather stay on the British isles, but who prefer to remain in the EU will be very tempted to move north, would be less of a change than moving to mainland europe and have to learn a new language and so on.
Will be a very interesting future. :popcorn:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 28, 2016, 08:57:11 pm
EU only said no because we don't want a divided Europe (and as a courtesy to the UK), but the picture is very different now. The EU might just change their mind about letting an independent Scotland join, why shouldn't we? Scotland can either mint their own pound and tie it to the British pound or they can adopt the Euro. The UK is going to bend over backwards in order to get access to the EU market and once a trade agreement is in place it would also apply to Scotland so no problem for the Scottish to continue trading with the UK either (and they will be backed by EU in any negotiations with the UK). Lots of scientist and businesses that would rather stay on the British isles, but who prefer to remain in the EU will be very tempted to move north, would be less of a change than moving to the mainland and have to learn a new language and so on.
Will be a very interesting future. :popcorn:

There are already rules laid down. if scotland leaves the UK it is a new state, yes it can bloody well mint it's own currency and according to EU rules  a country has to be a country for "x" years before being considered for membership. They can of course change the rules if they like after all they screwed the euro up good they can do as they please again.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 28, 2016, 10:13:42 pm
"If they had half a brain they would have given Cameron more when he went to see them. Then perhaps the UK wouldn't have voted out."

MFN provisions are very difficult to negotiate because once you give in to one party, you have given into all parties.

While it may be optimal for EU to give intoo Cameron in the short term, it is optimal for EU to not give intoo Cameron in the long term.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 28, 2016, 10:30:44 pm
I've just about had this thread.
People don't want to hear the truth.
Would you vote for someone who said you'll  be worse off for 10 years.
Would you vote for someone who told you NOT to accrue lots of credit card debt.
etc etc.
Farage is no worse than than the rest of them.
He was at least clear and consistent  on his views of the EU.
He will also be proven right on the EU's future unless they change their ways.
Do some research into the history of the EU.You might find it interesting.

 |O

Maybe consistent on his views of the EU but the man twists and turns in the wind whenever he's asked to substantiate a claim, he's been caught lying, on camera, many times and has denied statements that he was shown making  on national television.

You may find it instructive to take a look on archive.org to see the lies fall away from the leave campaign's website as they were knocked down one by one, similarly from the UKIP website.

I'm sure a google search for Farage lies would be similarly instructive.

I agree, human nature is a terrible thing and yes, it's difficult for most humans to see beyond the end of their nose. Farage especially as the smoke from his pants and the fact that his nose is now probably two continents further away than it was three months ago...

Didn't you want more democracy? So now you don't cry

I'm not complaining about Brexit.
I voted FOR it !!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 28, 2016, 10:36:35 pm
No, the losses aren't 'booked'.  It's just that my balance is down quite a bit.  But, hey, I managed to recover from 2008 by just hanging tight.  I'm not actively trading so I suffer from time to time and rejoice at others.

Long term gain over the last several years is an illusion.  OTOH, I have made up for my mandatory distributions so my balance isn't declining.  That works for me.  I don't need the money, I don't really want to take the distributions but what I want doesn't matter.

No offense intended to you personally, but I keep hearing people complain about how the markets are getting killed or that they have lost tons of money or their investment accounts are being hammered.

Below is the 1-year chart for the DJIA.  The S&P and NASDAQ are almost identical.  You can see that the disruption from Brexit is a small fraction of the natural rise and fall of the market over the past year.  There haven't been news stories about people being wiped out and I haven't heard much complaining from folks lately, but as soon as the market fell a couple of percent on Brexit, suddenly the sky is falling?

I think almost all the people who are saying they have been hit so hard are exaggerating to a huge degree.  I am sure there are some who were heavily invested in GBD/USD currency trading, or high-yield/high-risk UK-centric stocks, but those are the tiny minority.  For the rest, this latest blip in the stock market is substantially smaller in magnitude than ongoing market blips over the past year (or 5 years, or 10 years for that matter).
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 28, 2016, 10:41:17 pm
If we don't like out Gov we can get rid of them.
That cannot be done within the EU.
Let's not forget that Cameron tried to voice his concerns and got very little.
I'm sure there will be stormy waters ahead but we'll manage.
Of course we can. Or who do you think we are? Is it you, your family, your village, your county, England, the United Kindom, the European Union, the people of Earth or the Universe?. The only "we" that can replace the UK government is the people of the entire UK, it's the same with the European union of course, it works on the European level. A single country can't be allowed to decide over all the other member states, and non-member states have no influence at all.

The member states of the European union are all democracies, we vote for our governments and they send their representatives to the Council of Ministers. We also vote directly for our representatives in the European Parliament. So yes, if the people of Europe doesn't like their MEPs or the council we can definitely get rid of them. The English are as much to blame for all the shortcomings of EU as everyone else. EU is a work in progress, it will improve as long as people vote sensibly (which seems less probable today I'll admit).

Will you now allow the Scottish to leave the UK? How about Gibraltar, Northern Ireland or Wales? Can the Scottish people get rid of the Gov in Westminster? How about brits under the age of 50? and so on...

The we is the citizens of the EU.
The commissioners are the executive of the EU.
The are sworn to uphold the EU not their states.
The council are made up of about 6 political parties. ( for want of a better word).
They have manifestos go read them.
60% of them are committed to political union.
Come to think of it they are committed to good financial management and the integration of immigrants.
That been going well !!   |O


 

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vk6zgo on June 28, 2016, 10:44:25 pm
.
There are already rules laid down. if scotland leaves the UK it is a new state, yes it can bloody well mint it's own currency and according to EU rules  a country has to be a country for "x" years before being considered for membership. They can of course change the rules if they like after all they screwed the euro up good they can do as they please again.

They have minted their own currency for years------ Scottish notes are legal currency anywhere in the UK,just as Bank of England notes are.

The "country" status of Scotland,Wales,& Northern Ireland is a bit strange--They all compete as separate countries in the Commonwealth Games & other sporting contests,have a history of "separateness",& at least,in the case of Scotland,have their own legal system.

Also,Scotland was a country in its own right for hundreds of years before the formation of the UK.
If countries which were former victims of Soviet aggression can join the EU,surely that also applies to former victims of English aggression.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 28, 2016, 10:46:02 pm
We have two banks that get big hits at the moment. One a Belgian bank, the other a French-Belgo one.
Both lost billions after the vote.

Define "lost"?

If it's a reduction in book value due to declining share price or something, then nothing (or substantially less than the paper number) was really lost.  If they were betting in the currency exchange markets or "bet the farm" on the UK staying in the EU, then that is irresponsible  investing and they are paying the justified price.

The markets are down, what, 2-3%?  For these banks to have lost billions, they would have needed to be exposed to the tune of hundreds of billions at least.  Even if we're talking about BNP or HSBC, their total worldwide assets are in the 2,000 to 2,500 billion range, so that would mean they would have a huge chunk of their total assets tied to Brexit?  Doesn't sound reasonable.  I am guessing these are paper losses and only a fraction of that amount was actually lost in real value.  And the FTSE is only down 1.4% for the week, and it's up over 3 months.  Even the 1.4% it's down for the week is a lot less than the 9% it's down for the year.

The market reaction hasn't been too bad at all.  I think most of the organizations complaining about it are just over dramatizing every little dip in the market as if it's a near fatal blow that has cost tens of thousands of jobs.  It's mostly BS, from what I can see.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 28, 2016, 10:55:46 pm
If they had half a brain they would have given Cameron more when he went to see them. Then perhaps the UK wouldn't have voted out.
Why? Why should your country that already had a status aparte from all other countries be again treated differently from other countries?
Do you think you should be treated differently than your neighbour?
Lets face it UK has always had a problem with the EU but it is not all the EU fault it is also because you never ever really joined and felt as if you belonged. You never choose the euro. So it was a matter of when you would leave instead of if you would leave. So be it but don't blame those that wanted you in their midst for not giving again more different or better deals than other members because that is saying "look we are special and deserve more then everyone else".

So now we're coming out so everything is cool  ;D
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 28, 2016, 11:09:26 pm
Similar thing with this Brexit-vote: Very few voters really understand the big picture, how the things are interrelated, how the decision is really going to affect the voter, his/her family, and how the complex society and economics work in general. The voters want to have a simple, quick-fix for the current problem like immigration, current-government-suck, NHS needs more funding, and do not see how their decision will affect their lives and the general economics tomorrow. And the voters may really genuinely think that they have all the information needed to make the right decision.

Does your viewpoint also apply to those who voted "remain", or is it only those voting to leave who are misinformed and too stupid to understand the ramifications of their decision?

One of the perennial problems of the human species is that we denigrate and vilify those who see things differently from us, and we try to coerce and intimidate people into doing what we want by saying they will expose themselves as (insert negative word here) if they don't do it. 

Frankly, you're doing it too.  Nobody knew what the markets would do after the Brexit vote - anyone who did has increased their net worth by 5% over the past week by playing the market.  Nobody knows what will happen in a year or 5 years or 10 years.  Perhaps Scotland will leave the UK within 2 years.  Perhaps they won't.  Perhaps the UK will negotiate a sweetheart trade deal with the USA and will prosper far more than the EU will.  Perhaps Russia will invade somewhere in the EU and cause a crisis that breaks it apart.  Nobody knows what is going to happen, and therefore nobody can say that someone else's OPINION about what to do is right or wrong. 

For those that are critical of the people who voted Brexit, the fault lies with themselves.  The remain camp (including the current gov't of the UK and the EU) had a sales job to do, and they failed in doing it.  If the EU was as great and as necessary as people think, then it should have been an easy sales job.  After all, I doubt I need to convince many Americans that keeping the USA together is a good thing.  But it's not stupidity and ignorance that led the Brexit voters to vote leave.  They are no less intelligent or hard working or mature or experienced than the remain voters.  They just have a different viewpoint.

And they're not wrong.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Macbeth on June 29, 2016, 12:08:45 am
One thing that is constantly overlooked in this vote by both the mainstream media and ordinary plebs is that "tiny 2% lead" over 50% (which is of course a 4 point lead over 48%) is just in the noise and give it another go and the opposite would hold. Perhaps...

More importantly this wasn't really a vote for some new A or B choice (like a general election) but a vote for well established status quo A or something radical B.

Even during all the pre-brexit polls the financial markets, EU politicians, and betting markets refused to believe anything more than say 20-30% would vote for B - and having the barrier set at 50% they all put their money on it too!

It was an absolute longshot and kind of unfair odds to the leave side to make them go 50%. The natural human condition of "better the devil you know" is well known and so priced in by all economists and politicians using game theory and psychology.

Which is why not only the pro EU side but the leave side are gobsmacked!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on June 29, 2016, 12:10:04 am
It was the old and the poor who swung the vote, so obviously they're stupid racists. Not like the trendy, (now whining) young middle class who voted remain.

The BBC has been running stories featuring small children who apparently cried when they found out the result. I never knew 8 year olds were so politically savvy. They've been out searching for fascists and implying that they're typical Leave supporters. That, along with a couple of people (old and poor obviously) who admitted that they were clueless and regretted voting leave - again implying that this was typical of leave supporters, well at least those that aren't fascists, has been encouraging those young trendy middle class people to whine louder.

There's been a lot of fuss over the half-truths told by the Leave campaign, but they pale in comparison to those told by Remain. Both sides were actually pretty scummy with their campaigning.

The world hasn't ended, WW3 doesn't look any more likely than this time last week. The pound has dropped about 6% from the 6 month average, but it's slowly going back up. It had been dropping gradually over the past year anyway. Life goes on, but with a tad more democracy for us British.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Macbeth on June 29, 2016, 12:30:44 am
The shitty "racist" narrative is something the media is desperately trying to push. They are claiming utterly absurd claims of a 50-60% increase in "hate crime" against the polish for example. Yet the police have confirmed there has been none whatsoever.

Of course there is that single carefully cut out laminated business card printout doing the rounds. Really? A hate group would waste time and money making a shit business card on their printer and then go and laminate and cut the corners round after going all insane racist due to brexit with it? Or would they organise their individual post brexit racist sleeper cells to just print a ream of A4 sheets for less effort and cost and throw them in every letterbox they can? which hasn't happened.

Similarly the german OAP who has neighbours who hate her. I've had neighbours who hate me too. I don't blame 40 million people for it.

Let's not forget that leftist and islamist groups like UAF and Ask Mama have been caught with their absurd "hate crime" false flags or agent provocateur many times before. It really is not beyond them to spray racist grafitti or act it out because actual racists are pretty hard to find.

The UK is probably the least racist country in the world.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 29, 2016, 01:56:12 am
For those that are critical of the people who voted Brexit, the fault lies with themselves.  The remain camp (including the current gov't of the UK and the EU) had a sales job to do, and they failed in doing it.  If the EU was as great and as necessary as people think, then it should have been an easy sales job. After all, I doubt I need to convince many Americans that keeping the USA together is a good thing. But it's not stupidity and ignorance that led the Brexit voters to vote leave.  They are no less intelligent or hard working or mature or experienced than the remain voters.  They just have a different viewpoint.

And they're not wrong.

You might want to eliminate the reference to the US.  Texas is rumbling again.  They want to secede over, of all things, Obama's immigration policies (which the court just squashed).  They are very unhappy. 

California is the only state that pays more into the union than it gets back.  We feed the rest of the states.  Becoming independent comes up from time to time.  One day it will stick.  Furthermore, California itself would like to break up into several separate states.  Some would probably forgo diplomatic relations with their neighbors or the US.

People here are just as angry as in the UK.  That's how Trump got where he is.

FWIW, as a condition of joining the Union, Texas reserved the right to break into five states at their sole discretion.
https://www.tsl.texas.gov/exhibits/annexation/part5/question7.html (https://www.tsl.texas.gov/exhibits/annexation/part5/question7.html)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 29, 2016, 05:40:39 am
For those that are critical of the people who voted Brexit, the fault lies with themselves.  The remain camp (including the current gov't of the UK and the EU) had a sales job to do, and they failed in doing it.  If the EU was as great and as necessary as people think, then it should have been an easy sales job. After all, I doubt I need to convince many Americans that keeping the USA together is a good thing. But it's not stupidity and ignorance that led the Brexit voters to vote leave.  They are no less intelligent or hard working or mature or experienced than the remain voters.  They just have a different viewpoint.

And they're not wrong.

You might want to eliminate the reference to the US.  Texas is rumbling again.  They want to secede over, of all things, Obama's immigration policies (which the court just squashed).  They are very unhappy. 

California is the only state that pays more into the union than it gets back.  We feed the rest of the states.  Becoming independent comes up from time to time.  One day it will stick.  Furthermore, California itself would like to break up into several separate states.  Some would probably forgo diplomatic relations with their neighbors or the US.

People here are just as angry as in the UK.  That's how Trump got where he is.

FWIW, as a condition of joining the Union, Texas reserved the right to break into five states at their sole discretion.
https://www.tsl.texas.gov/exhibits/annexation/part5/question7.html (https://www.tsl.texas.gov/exhibits/annexation/part5/question7.html)

That Obama have the nuts and says that Texas is a colony of USA and if they will go out , the usa have decolonized (applying the onu resolution) and will  return the sovereignty to Mexico
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 29, 2016, 05:42:28 am
.
There are already rules laid down. if scotland leaves the UK it is a new state, yes it can bloody well mint it's own currency and according to EU rules  a country has to be a country for "x" years before being considered for membership. They can of course change the rules if they like after all they screwed the euro up good they can do as they please again.

They have minted their own currency for years------ Scottish notes are legal currency anywhere in the UK,just as Bank of England notes are.

The "country" status of Scotland,Wales,& Northern Ireland is a bit strange--They all compete as separate countries in the Commonwealth Games & other sporting contests,have a history of "separateness",& at least,in the case of Scotland,have their own legal system.

Also,Scotland was a country in its own right for hundreds of years before the formation of the UK.
If countries which were former victims of Soviet aggression can join the EU,surely that also applies to former victims of English aggression.

yes they mint the GBP, but we can't have two seperate counties using the pound. I think you will find former USSR countries were countries in their own right for some years before joining. I didn't say scotland can't join, I said they can't join immediately. The EU beleive it of not actually has "some" sund rules. You can't create a nation today and join the Eu tomorrow, the EU and euro has already taken a battering. Or maybe i mis remember and it's the euro they can't have until they have been around for a while. Either way they would need their own currency for a certain amount of years before they can join the euro. It's economic madness for them.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 29, 2016, 05:48:57 am

 They've been out searching for fascists and implying that they're typical Leave supporters. That, along with a couple of people (old and poor obviously) who admitted that they were clueless and regretted voting leave - again implying that this was typical of leave supporters, well at least those that aren't fascists, has been encouraging those young trendy middle class people to whine louder.


A  fascist term doesn't suitable fine, the correct term would be a National Socialism
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on June 29, 2016, 06:03:53 am
I don't think there's anything useful to gain from stock market movement over the last few days.  Volatility is the name of the game and 'paper losses' aren't worth panicking over.  The knee jerk reaction by some who follow the "When in trouble or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout" philosophy, just creates opportunity for those with a more considered approach.



OMG a politician telling 'lies' to try and gain or remain in office and exercise influence with voters. Hope it never happens here in the States.  :-DD

Now that was funny.... anywhere in the world.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Towger on June 29, 2016, 06:52:52 am
yes they mint the GBP, but we can't have two seperate counties using the pound.

You already have 4 countries using the pound and multiple banks printing their own version. It would be no different from when Ireland left the UK. Keep the same currency for a while, then produce their own version and keep it at parity, then eventually allow it to float independently.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Towger on June 29, 2016, 07:20:09 am
Of course converting to the euro is the easer option.  Just waking up in the morning and get euro out of ATM machines and euro change in shops. Most countries were fully converted within a month or so. I know your experience in Italy was not as smooth, but that is Italy for you!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 29, 2016, 10:06:32 am
"California is the only state that pays more into the union than it gets back."

You just need a little bit of common sense to know such a statement is unlikely to be true.

Federal spending plus taxation data is widely available. For 2012 and 2013, California gave less than 300bn to the Union and took back more than 300bn from the Union.

An inconvenient truth, as a hero of mine would say.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on June 29, 2016, 10:35:49 am
I didn't say scotland can't join, I said they can't join immediately.
Unless the EU decides to recognize Scotland as a successor state to the UK.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 29, 2016, 10:57:31 am
I don't know the exact rules, but if the rule is that a country should be part of the EU for x years and then can join I think Scotland can join right away, they have been part of the EU for a long time as part of the UK.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 29, 2016, 11:24:05 am
"That Obama have the nuts and says that Texas is a colony of USA and if they will go out , the usa have decolonized (applying the onu resolution) and will  return the sovereignty to Mexico"

If he said that, he would be a hypocrite. If you have supported the right to self determination by people of Yoguslavia, the USSR, Ukraine, ..., we should take the same pill and support the right of the people of texas, California, PR, and especially Washington DC to get out of the Union.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 29, 2016, 11:36:42 am
Of course converting to the euro is the easer option.  Just waking up in the morning and get euro out of ATM machines and euro change in shops. Most countries were fully converted within a month or so. I know your experience in Italy was not as smooth, but that is Italy for you!

No you are tottally missing the point. I never said italy had any problems distributing the euro. We had all the money changed in a month or less.

According to the EU rules a country has to be a country with a currency for a period of time to create a financial track record because the theory is that not just any dodgy state with a screwed economy can join to bail itself out. It's like in business, if you don't have any books to show the lender to prove your a viable business that can pay debts they won't lend or they insure themselves against default and ask for a high interest rate. The same with a country in the euro.

Yu don't just get to use the euro because "you" decided you would. Scotland seems gto think it can make it's own rules but then with a leader that is akin to dear nigel that is no surprise.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 29, 2016, 11:53:45 am
We have two banks that get big hits at the moment. One a Belgian bank, the other a French-Belgo one.
Both lost billions after the vote.

Define "lost"?

If it's a reduction in book value due to declining share price or something, then nothing (or substantially less than the paper number) was really lost.  If they were betting in the currency exchange markets or "bet the farm" on the UK staying in the EU, then that is irresponsible  investing and they are paying the justified price.

The markets are down, what, 2-3%?  For these banks to have lost billions, they would have needed to be exposed to the tune of hundreds of billions at least.  Even if we're talking about BNP or HSBC, their total worldwide assets are in the 2,000 to 2,500 billion range, so that would mean they would have a huge chunk of their total assets tied to Brexit?  Doesn't sound reasonable.  I am guessing these are paper losses and only a fraction of that amount was actually lost in real value.  And the FTSE is only down 1.4% for the week, and it's up over 3 months.  Even the 1.4% it's down for the week is a lot less than the 9% it's down for the year.

The market reaction hasn't been too bad at all.  I think most of the organizations complaining about it are just over dramatizing every little dip in the market as if it's a near fatal blow that has cost tens of thousands of jobs.  It's mostly BS, from what I can see.

Lost on paper as long as they stay above a certain treshold that isn't so far off. The moment they drop under that: Lost in facts, because they lost liquidity and don't hold against the banking health tests.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Macbeth on June 29, 2016, 12:07:03 pm
With the credit agencies dropping AAA status I wonder if we will finally see some interest rate rises?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 29, 2016, 12:26:41 pm
.
There are already rules laid down. if scotland leaves the UK it is a new state, yes it can bloody well mint it's own currency and according to EU rules  a country has to be a country for "x" years before being considered for membership. They can of course change the rules if they like after all they screwed the euro up good they can do as they please again.

They have minted their own currency for years------ Scottish notes are legal currency anywhere in the UK,just as Bank of England notes are.

The "country" status of Scotland,Wales,& Northern Ireland is a bit strange--They all compete as separate countries in the Commonwealth Games & other sporting contests,have a history of "separateness",& at least,in the case of Scotland,have their own legal system.

Also,Scotland was a country in its own right for hundreds of years before the formation of the UK.
If countries which were former victims of Soviet aggression can join the EU,surely that also applies to former victims of English aggression.

yes they mint the GBP, but we can't have two seperate counties using the pound. I think you will find former USSR countries were countries in their own right for some years before joining. I didn't say scotland can't join, I said they can't join immediately. The EU beleive it of not actually has "some" sund rules. You can't create a nation today and join the Eu tomorrow, the EU and euro has already taken a battering. Or maybe i mis remember and it's the euro they can't have until they have been around for a while. Either way they would need their own currency for a certain amount of years before they can join the euro. It's economic madness for them.

Which part of being a nation don't you get ?
Like I said I'm Scottish and don't want to be in the EU.
If Scotland ends up in the EU then so be it.
That's DEMOCRACY.
Currently the UK is leaving the EU.
Get over it and go read a few books !!   |O

As a moderator I suggest you close this thread down.
It's going NOWHERE and has served its purpose.

3DB building up to go into full rant mode.


Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 29, 2016, 12:30:22 pm
With the credit agencies dropping AAA status I wonder if we will finally see some interest rate rises?

Could be.
These agencies have proven to be so reliable in the past . :-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 29, 2016, 12:37:08 pm
One thing that is constantly overlooked in this vote by both the mainstream media and ordinary plebs is that "tiny 2% lead" over 50% (which is of course a 4 point lead over 48%) is just in the noise and give it another go and the opposite would hold. Perhaps...

More importantly this wasn't really a vote for some new A or B choice (like a general election) but a vote for well established status quo A or something radical B.

Even during all the pre-brexit polls the financial markets, EU politicians, and betting markets refused to believe anything more than say 20-30% would vote for B - and having the barrier set at 50% they all put their money on it too!

It was an absolute longshot and kind of unfair odds to the leave side to make them go 50%. The natural human condition of "better the devil you know" is well known and so priced in by all economists and politicians using game theory and psychology.



Which is why not only the pro EU side but the leave side are gobsmacked!

I believe the turnout was pretty high.
(Politicians,markets etc. )  This shows the level of disconnect between them and the population.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Scrts on June 29, 2016, 12:38:05 pm
Currently the UK is leaving the EU.

Well, that's not the official position. People provided their opinion, so why the UK parliament is struggling to initiate the 50th treat? It's not initiated, so the UK is currently NOT leaving the EU.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 29, 2016, 12:57:45 pm
Currently the UK is leaving the EU.

Well, that's not the official position. People provided their opinion, so why the UK parliament is struggling to initiate the 50th treat? It's not initiated, so the UK is currently NOT leaving the EU.

To be more precise.
Currently the UK Gov has said that it accepts the vote to leave the EU.
That IS the official position of the UK GOV as stated to the UK parliament by David Cameron current Prime Minister of the UK.
GET IT NOW ?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 29, 2016, 01:07:59 pm
"It's not initiated, so the UK is currently NOT leaving the EU"

So you are driving down the road to a cliff. And you would think it is accurate to tell your passengers all is OK?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on June 29, 2016, 01:11:04 pm
"It's not initiated, so the UK is currently NOT leaving the EU"

So you are driving down the road to a cliff. And you would think it is accurate to tell your passengers all is OK?

I don't see that as an analogy with any merit - unless the opinion included is universally accepted as fact.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 29, 2016, 01:12:32 pm
"It's not initiated, so the UK is currently NOT leaving the EU"

So you are driving down the road to a cliff. And you would think it is accurate to tell your passengers all is OK?

Are you trying to be some kind of smart arse ?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Augustus on June 29, 2016, 01:15:06 pm
People provided their opinion, so why the UK parliament is struggling to initiate the 50th treat?

Because they have no clue how to proceed now. They're frantically in search of a way to get outta of this deep shithole they dug themselves into, without losing to much face. This isn't over yet. Give them some more months  :palm: 
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Scrts on June 29, 2016, 01:20:14 pm
Currently the UK is leaving the EU.

Well, that's not the official position. People provided their opinion, so why the UK parliament is struggling to initiate the 50th treat? It's not initiated, so the UK is currently NOT leaving the EU.

To be more precise.
Currently the UK Gov has said that it accepts the vote to leave the EU.
That IS the official position of the UK GOV as stated to the UK parliament by David Cameron current Prime Minister of the UK.
GET IT NOW ?

That is the official position from UK Govt to UK people. Official position from UK Govt to EU is, as of today, UK is not leaving the EU. I am talking simply pure official facts.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Wytnucls on June 29, 2016, 01:21:00 pm
The UK will leave the Euro zone.
The people have spoken and the parliament won't stand in the way.
What is left to negotiate is the future relationship the country wants with their previous partners. In the interest of both parties, trade is unlikely to be heavily affected, but there will be strings attached.
I suspect that, 2 years down the line, the public will find that not much has been achieved by leaving the club.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: GEuser on June 29, 2016, 01:22:18 pm


As a moderator I suggest you close this thread down.
It's going NOWHERE and has served its purpose.

3DB building up to go into full rant mode.
Voting closes: July 10, 2016, 07:29:34 PM
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 29, 2016, 01:23:43 pm
"The opinion included is universally accepted as fact"

Opinions can never become facts, no matter how widely accepted they are. The fact that everything in the world considers you a toddler (an opinion) doesn't by itself make your a toddler (a fact, or not), for example.

Some propogandanist may attempt to convince the weak minded people that widely accepted opinions are facts but only the really challenged types will buy into that.

BTW, for any universally accepted fact you have, I can find at least one person who disputes it.



Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on June 29, 2016, 01:29:18 pm
The UK will leave the Euro zone.
They never entered it.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: GEuser on June 29, 2016, 01:30:35 pm
Then after that date of July 10th we will need another thread , not that will do any good as the "people have spoken" , Bods like us with opinions do not really matter imo .

But just watchin TV today and those EU spoke persons (the official ones) are gettin really bitchy about it all with all those threats and pressure of words , and they wonder why?

From what i glean off the mayhem here in the thread there is a 2 year allowance of planning after that 50 thingymabob is filed .. 2 year!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 29, 2016, 01:30:45 pm
The UK will leave the Euro zone.
They never entered it.

:)

On the breaking eu news (http://www.euronews.com/2016/06/29/uk-pm-cameron-bows-out-at-final-eu-summit/):
Quote from: Juncker
“What i don’t understand is that those who wanted to leave are totally unable to tell us what they want. But i hope that the notification by the next British government will arrive as soon as possible.”
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Scrts on June 29, 2016, 01:45:09 pm
From what i glean off the mayhem here in the thread there is a 2 year allowance of planning after that 50 thingymabob is filed .. 2 year!

Need to dig up the Lisbon agreement, but to my understanding since 50th treat is initiated, then the timer of 2 years for divorce is started.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 29, 2016, 01:49:56 pm
This is the timeline
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: GEuser on June 29, 2016, 02:08:53 pm
This is the timeline
Ok thanks ...

If one was a bit of a conspiracy nut one could think that all that pressure and nastiness (and its their own rules btw) could be a aggressive forceful way of trying to find out just what Britain is going to do just so they (EU) can do some dirty tactics to work against them (Britain) to the EU's advantage sort of like insider trading imo .

Lucky for the EU i'm not over there up the ladder at Britain , i'd fix the Bastards ! real good too .
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Wytnucls on June 29, 2016, 02:12:33 pm
The UK will leave the Euro zone.
They never entered it.
I thought some smart Alec would pipe in. I said the Euro zone, not the Eurozone. Make that 'will cancel their EU membership', if you prefer.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Cerebus on June 29, 2016, 02:23:02 pm
The UK will leave the Euro zone.

POI: The UK has never been part of the Euro zone. Euro zone != EU. The Euro Zone is that collection of countries that use the Euro as currency.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kalvin on June 29, 2016, 02:27:04 pm
This is the timeline
Exactly. So, the UK will be a full member of EU for at least next two years after UK files the Article 50 with full obligations to comply EU rules and pay the fees. If the extended period is requested and approved, UK can be a full member up to next 10 years with full obligations to comply EU rules and pay the fees.

In summary: Nothing will change in the UK regarding the EU for the next two ... ten years even if the UK files the Article 50 like today.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 29, 2016, 02:27:35 pm
The UK will leave the Euro zone.
They never entered it.
I thought some smart Alec would pipe in. I said the Euro zone, not the Eurozone. Make that 'will cancel their EU membership', if you prefer.
I'm sure I've seen a few references to "leaving Europe" which would be difficult as, the last time I looked, we are still part of the continental plate :).

Cameron's attempt to blame the EU for the mess by "not listening to him on immigration" was interesting, I wonder if things would have turned out differently if he had come back with agreement on curbing free movement earlier in the year. That said the whole referendum was his idea.

Farage did what he always does in the European Parliament - sneer and try to get up everyone's nose as much as possible. I quite liked Guy Verhofstadt's comment about Brexit meaning that they could save one of the biggest waste of funds in the EU - Nigel Farage's salary.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 29, 2016, 02:31:01 pm
This is the timeline
Exactly. So, the UK will be a full member of EU for at least next two years after UK files the Article 50 with full obligations to comply EU rules and pay the fees. If the extended period is requested and approved, UK can be a full member up to next 10 years with full obligations to comply EU rules and pay the fees.

In summary: Nothing will change in the UK regarding the EU for the next two ... ten years even if the UK files the Article 50 like today.
We only get an extension if all 27 remaining nations agree.

If not we are out on our ear with no agreement after two years.

The hope is that the EU perceive that getting an agreement with us is important enough to extend the negotiations if they take more than two years, whether they do/will is not clear.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 29, 2016, 02:32:59 pm
To be more precise.
Currently the UK Gov has said that it accepts the vote to leave the EU.
That IS the official position of the UK GOV as stated to the UK parliament by David Cameron current Prime Minister of the UK.
GET IT NOW ?

Article 50 or it never happened. Remember Boaty McBoatface.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kalvin on June 29, 2016, 02:47:19 pm
To be more precise.
Currently the UK Gov has said that it accepts the vote to leave the EU.
That IS the official position of the UK GOV as stated to the UK parliament by David Cameron current Prime Minister of the UK.
GET IT NOW ?

Article 50 or it never happened. Remember Boaty McBoatface.

Nice reading :)
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/05/boaty-mcboatface-parliament-lessons/482046/ (http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/05/boaty-mcboatface-parliament-lessons/482046/)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: G7PSK on June 29, 2016, 03:18:08 pm

[/quote]
I'm sure I've seen a few references to "leaving Europe" which would be difficult as, the last time I looked, we are still part of the continental plate :).


[/quote]
That's why The CEO of JCB said leaving the EU would be good for JCB, it will take a lot of excavators to widen the channel and dig the UK free of the continental plate. :-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 29, 2016, 04:04:22 pm
Quote
I'm sure I've seen a few references to "leaving Europe" which would be difficult as, the last time I looked, we are still part of the continental plate :).
That's why The CEO of JCB said leaving the EU would be good for JCB, it will take a lot of excavators to widen the channel and dig the UK free of the continental plate. :-DD

Beware not to tip over your island.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7XXVLKWd3Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7XXVLKWd3Q)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 29, 2016, 04:13:01 pm
Quote
Article 50 or it never happened. Remember Boaty McBoatface.

I remember that Blas de Lezo was at first the vote , and second was the Boaty McBoatface, but mysteriously the Blas de Lezo dissapered .

If the Uk don't request the art 50, i think that EU will change a few the laws and finally  they will sign by them. There are that to remember that the UK already  haven't  voice on EU

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: steverino on June 29, 2016, 05:12:44 pm
Quote
I'm sure I've seen a few references to "leaving Europe" which would be difficult as, the last time I looked, we are still part of the continental plate :).
That's why The CEO of JCB said leaving the EU would be good for JCB, it will take a lot of excavators to widen the channel and dig the UK free of the continental plate. :-DD

Beware not to tip over your island.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7XXVLKWd3Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7XXVLKWd3Q)
Oh man, that was painful to watch.  As he was strugging to find the word for distance, I was praying he was having a bad day and was not the dumb f**k he appeared to be.  Then he removed all doubt with the island tipping concern (maybe this is a hoax - nobody can be that stupid!)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on June 29, 2016, 05:20:22 pm
.
There are already rules laid down. if scotland leaves the UK it is a new state, yes it can bloody well mint it's own currency and according to EU rules  a country has to be a country for "x" years before being considered for membership. They can of course change the rules if they like after all they screwed the euro up good they can do as they please again.

They have minted their own currency for years------ Scottish notes are legal currency anywhere in the UK,just as Bank of England notes are.

The "country" status of Scotland,Wales,& Northern Ireland is a bit strange--They all compete as separate countries in the Commonwealth Games & other sporting contests,have a history of "separateness",& at least,in the case of Scotland,have their own legal system.

Also,Scotland was a country in its own right for hundreds of years before the formation of the UK.
If countries which were former victims of Soviet aggression can join the EU,surely that also applies to former victims of English aggression.

yes they mint the GBP, but we can't have two seperate counties using the pound. I think you will find former USSR countries were countries in their own right for some years before joining. I didn't say scotland can't join, I said they can't join immediately. The EU beleive it of not actually has "some" sund rules. You can't create a nation today and join the Eu tomorrow, the EU and euro has already taken a battering. Or maybe i mis remember and it's the euro they can't have until they have been around for a while. Either way they would need their own currency for a certain amount of years before they can join the euro. It's economic madness for them.

Which part of being a nation don't you get ?
Like I said I'm Scottish and don't want to be in the EU.
If Scotland ends up in the EU then so be it.
That's DEMOCRACY.
Currently the UK is leaving the EU.
Get over it and go read a few books !!   |O

As a moderator I suggest you close this thread down.
It's going NOWHERE and has served its purpose.

3DB building up to go into full rant mode.




So you want me to close this thread because it's not going the way you want...... Now that I have laid down the relity to you you start on something else and attack me ignoring your original statements. If yo have had enough then GO AWAY!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 29, 2016, 05:47:24 pm
Quote
I'm sure I've seen a few references to "leaving Europe" which would be difficult as, the last time I looked, we are still part of the continental plate :).
That's why The CEO of JCB said leaving the EU would be good for JCB, it will take a lot of excavators to widen the channel and dig the UK free of the continental plate. :-DD

Beware not to tip over your island.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7XXVLKWd3Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7XXVLKWd3Q)
Oh man, that was painful to watch.  As he was strugging to find the word for distance, I was praying he was having a bad day and was not the dumb f**k he appeared to be.  Then he removed all doubt with the island tipping concern (maybe this is a hoax - nobody can be that stupid!)


Mariano Rajoy president of Spain: A glass is a glass and a plate is a plate   :-DD

https://youtu.be/CekhGPidKuM (https://youtu.be/CekhGPidKuM)

And other :

We have to manufacture machines that allow us  to follow manufacturing machines because it doesn't go  never to make a machine is manufacture machines  :-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 29, 2016, 06:35:20 pm

Oh man, that was painful to watch.  As he was strugging to find the word for distance, I was praying he was having a bad day and was not the dumb f**k he appeared to be.  Then he removed all doubt with the island tipping concern (maybe this is a hoax - nobody can be that stupid!)

Actually, he was being facetious.  When I first heard about the comment I just groaned.  Only in the US...
Today I decided to read his bio on Wikipedia.  I'm not a Democrat but I like his positions on a lot of issues.  He's pretty effective in Congress.  Also, read the section "Personal life" and his battle with Hep C and its effects.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hank_Johnson
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 29, 2016, 06:49:43 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/28/brexit-great-news-eu-britain-sovereignty (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/28/brexit-great-news-eu-britain-sovereignty)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 29, 2016, 07:55:17 pm
Quote
The problem was bad faith and delusional thinking.

Without newness at the front, all that have been rivals from UK  known their bad faith and low blows.

A UK  has always bragged of all the world: Spain with the gibraltar and now the CEE. But the Junkers has already planned the vengeance and he's going to give the UK their own medicine.

https://www.rt.com/uk/348904-scotland-sturgeon-eu-brexit/ (https://www.rt.com/uk/348904-scotland-sturgeon-eu-brexit/)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 29, 2016, 08:44:43 pm
The EU is going to take a minor incident, Brexit, and turn it into a catastrophe out of spite.  The EU needs the UK and its military a lot more than the UK needs the EU.  If the "Leave" voters get the feeling that the UK is being treated unfairly, watch for another referendum.  This tit-for-tar won't end well!

The EU needs to polish up on Game Theory.  You never leave your opponent in a position where every outcome is a maximum fail because sometimes the opponents act irrationally.  For example, what would the EU think if the UK withdraws from NATO?  Why should the UK defend an openly hostile EU?  Not their problem!  If I were a former Russian satellite state, I would get very nervous about the tone of these meetings!

The EU needs to accept the decision and move on in as equitable a manner as possible.  The decision HAS been made!

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 29, 2016, 08:51:35 pm
Here's the solution!  Let the UK become the 51st state!

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/29/opinions/make-the-uk-the-51st-state/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/29/opinions/make-the-uk-the-51st-state/index.html)

I know, stupid, right?  The thing is, the UK really is highly regarded in the US.  You would certainly be welcome!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: continuo on June 29, 2016, 09:02:10 pm
Yeah, why not. China, India and Russia are also interested and North Korea too. Hey, why not put the UK up onto eBay and sell it to the highest bidder? Private seller, no warranty, no refunds  :-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nrxnrx on June 29, 2016, 09:26:46 pm
This thread is becoming more and more cartoonish.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 29, 2016, 09:51:00 pm
That is the official position from UK Govt to UK people. Official position from UK Govt to EU is, as of today, UK is not leaving the EU. I am talking simply pure official facts.

Incorrect.

Not having invoked article 50 yet is not the same as not leaving.  You're confusing lack of action with intent not to take action.  They're different things. 
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 29, 2016, 09:54:28 pm
On the breaking eu news (http://www.euronews.com/2016/06/29/uk-pm-cameron-bows-out-at-final-eu-summit/):
Quote from: Juncker
“What i don’t understand is that those who wanted to leave are totally unable to tell us what they want. But i hope that the notification by the next British government will arrive as soon as possible.”

Honestly, Juncker is an idiot.  A divisive idiot.  A drunkard idiot.

He's got a grudge against the UK for repudiating "his" baby and he's throwing his toys out of the pram.

For the EU to say the UK needs to leave immediately is foolish.  There are a LOT of logistical and legal issues that need resolved - and the UK has every right to take all the time they need (up to that prescribed in the treaty) to leave the EU. 

Name-calling the leave voters doesn't strengthen Junckers position at all, nor that of the EU.  Nor does it help create market confidence or indicate that this thing will be handled rationally and maturely. 
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: xrunner on June 29, 2016, 10:12:14 pm
After the Vote the market crashed out, and now (predictably) it's going up strong again.

Investors are so fickle, why do people over-react?  :-//
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: continuo on June 29, 2016, 10:19:34 pm
This thread is becoming more and more cartoonish.

The German word for it is "Galgenhumor", gallows humour (?) don't know if that is making any sense in English  :P
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on June 29, 2016, 10:28:28 pm
On the breaking eu news (http://www.euronews.com/2016/06/29/uk-pm-cameron-bows-out-at-final-eu-summit/):
Quote from: Juncker
“What i don’t understand is that those who wanted to leave are totally unable to tell us what they want. But i hope that the notification by the next British government will arrive as soon as possible.”

Honestly, Juncker is an idiot.  A divisive idiot.  A drunkard idiot.

He's got a grudge against the UK for repudiating "his" baby and he's throwing his toys out of the pram.



For the EU to say the UK needs to leave immediately is foolish.  There are a LOT of logistical and legal issues that need resolved - and the UK has every right to take all the time they need (up to that prescribed in the treaty) to leave the EU. 

Name-calling the leave voters doesn't strengthen Junckers position at all, nor that of the EU.  Nor does it help create market confidence or indicate that this thing will be handled rationally and maturely.

Two points;   firstly, he is not asking the UK to leave straight away, he is asking them to start the two year process straight away.  And secondly it is not *his* baby, it is the project of the founders of the EU, and one the UK has always resisted.  I am not necessarily disagreeing with your conclusions, just correcting the details.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 29, 2016, 10:40:31 pm
..... and the UK has every right to take all the time they need (up to that prescribed in the treaty) to leave the EU......

We aren't into the time period prescribed by the treaty yet because we have not invoked Article 50 (yet)

I'm not sure whether Europe is just behaving like a jilted lover or trying to take advantage of the fact that the UK political system is in turmoil at the moment but they do need to back off and let us sort out our end. No-one expected this result and it has rocked the boat rather a lot.

My main worry is that there will be a General Election - not unreasonable as there is the potential for new leaders of both Labour and the Tories and the view of Parliament - where most MPs favour Remain - is at odds with the views of the people.
The problem is that Labour are unelectable, certainly with Corbyn as leader and probably with anyone who might replace him and I am a little worried that UKIP could step into that void. BoJo as PM is one thing but Farage is quite another. FWIW I don't think it would come to that but the prospect is alarming.

The other problem is that they appear to be unmoveable on the free movement thing which might make negotiations difficult. Whatever you feel about the outpouring of sentiment over the issue it is clear that unless those that voted Leave can see a clear policy in place that will reduce the attractiveness of the UK to economic migrants from the poorer parts of Europe the electorate will get even more angry. Perhaps we could allow free movement of labour without free movement of people - i.e can come if you have already fixed up a job, perhaps if we allow free movement of people but no benefits, I don't know.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on June 29, 2016, 10:50:52 pm
On the breaking eu news (http://www.euronews.com/2016/06/29/uk-pm-cameron-bows-out-at-final-eu-summit/):
Quote from: Juncker
“What i don’t understand is that those who wanted to leave are totally unable to tell us what they want. But i hope that the notification by the next British government will arrive as soon as possible.”
For the EU to say the UK needs to leave immediately is foolish.  There are a LOT of logistical and legal issues that need resolved - and the UK has every right to take all the time they need (up to that prescribed in the treaty) to leave the EU. 

Name-calling the leave voters doesn't strengthen Junckers position at all, nor that of the EU.  Nor does it help create market confidence or indicate that this thing will be handled rationally and maturely.
1. The referendum result is not legally binding, the UK parliament makes the final decision.
2. EU can't begin planing an exit before the UK activates article 50, after that there will be a minimum of 2 years to plan all the logistical and legal issues (and more) before formally leaving.

The UK government is currently stalling, holding the rest of Europe hostage. They should make their intentions clear to dispel as much uncertainty as possible and let people begin planing for the future. The UK government deciding to ignore the referendum would not be very democratic. Everyone in EU, except nationalists, are unhappy to see the UK leave, but if the people of Britain voted for a Brexit that should be respected and the UK government should therefore activate article 50.

This is Johnson's and Cameron's fault, they keep blaming their own failings on the EU. Cameron wanted the referendum to save his own party from splitting, gambling that the British would be smart enough not to shoot themselves in the foot. Unfortunately the people decided this was a good time to give the establishment the finger and everyone lost. Well, at least the UK, it might not be so bad for the rest of EU after all. Some are afraid of a domino effect but I suspect the Brexit might actually make it less likely for other member states to leave now that they see what is happening in the UK. No other EU government is going to try exit referendums any time soon, that's for sure.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 29, 2016, 11:26:07 pm
After the Vote the market crashed out, and now (predictably) it's going up strong again.

Investors are so fickle, why do people over-react?  :-//

Friday was breathtaking and who could know what Monday would bring.  Another dive to the bottom?  Well, no, it was fairly modest as falls go.  Then two days of recovery but we're still not quite back.

As a trader, going into the weekend was a huge risk.  Friday's are like that!

Markets like certainty and every trader in the world was certain the UK would remain.  Then they counted the votes...

I stayed in primarily because my managed funds are a little harder to dump.  I stayed in back in 2008 as well.  I could have gotten out earlier if I was actively trading and bought back lower but it's very hard to time the market.  I have recovered everything I 'lost' during that debacle and I suspect I will recover from this one as well.

When you live on a fixed income, these disturbances can be troubling.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 29, 2016, 11:40:48 pm
Quote
Let the UK become the 51st state!

I would caution the UK folks about it. With all the bad things about the EU, at least there is article 50 where the UK folks can leave if they decide so.

The US is a hotel California. Last time someone tried to leave, you all know what happened. Do the UK folks still want to join?

Seriously, the founding fathers pretty much everything right, except a mechanism for the member states to leave. The US needs an article 50 amendment to its constitution. Unfortunately, that wouldn't happen until things get really really bad.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 30, 2016, 12:04:44 am
For the EU to say the UK needs to leave immediately is foolish.
No it is not. As long as the UK has not started the actual process of leaving there is doubt that the UK will actually leave the EU with all the consequences on the financial markets as a result. Also the longer starting the process of leaving the EU is postponed the more the Brittish government shows it cannot make a (any) decission at all.

And to be honest: it would not surprise me if the UK is not going to leave the EU after all! The people have voted to leave so turn in the papers to the EU the next day. Why the wait?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: steverino on June 30, 2016, 12:58:20 am

And to be honest: it would not surprise me if the UK is not going to leave the EU after all! The people have voted to leave so turn in the papers to the EU the next day. Why the wait?
Buyer's remorse.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 30, 2016, 01:46:44 am
@Simon
quote :
So you want me to close this thread because it's not going the way you want...... Now that I have laid down the relity to you you start on something else and attack me ignoring your original statements. If you have had enough then GO AWAY!

Nice response from a moderator    :-DD
The thread is going NOWHERE !!
I've said already that I accept whatever happens.





Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 30, 2016, 02:00:20 am
Can this thread calm down before I lock it! sounds like the referendum campaign all over again - Bollocks

Awesome   :-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vk6zgo on June 30, 2016, 02:03:51 am

I'm sure I've seen a few references to "leaving Europe" which would be difficult as, the last time I looked, we are still part of the continental plate :).


[/quote]
That's why The CEO of JCB said leaving the EU would be good for JCB, it will take a lot of excavators to widen the channel and dig the UK free of the continental plate. :-DD
[/quote]

If you could do that,you could also tow the whole shebang south, & anchor it off West Oz!
Better weather,except for those South Westerly squalls.
Of course, "G7PSK" would have to become "VK--something",but that wouldn't be too bad!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: GEuser on June 30, 2016, 03:37:40 am
IMF CEO Christine Lagarde  the other day on TV actually accused the UK of being anti-intellectual , that was at the end of one of it's talks saying generally that they have done the modeling and studies and have found out that the UK will pay dearly if they leave and it would be madness if they did , their own studies (the IMF) have found out this , so just at the end it said the anti-intellectual comment .

One would have thought to be anti-intellectual against someone or something one would have to be a (the target) intellectual in the 1st place , says the orange fake tan or not hypocrite , they are so far up their own arseholes that they do not see the Shit!  imo of course .

I also notice another comment in the posts defending that junker dude about the language use , imo ,, the language used by those types is not a misrepresentation of the English translation used from their native language , i have seen it heard it enough times lately also assuming a translation error but now have decided that there "is" no error in translation (which can happen btw) and they mean what they mean , quite pompas gits imo and very very superior .

I really dislike analyzing those types , normally i do not analyze at all unless something catches my attention , borderline insanity springs to mind there ... with a method .
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 30, 2016, 03:55:50 am
As regards the recent EU videos/news/etc and criticisms of the UK.

I think they are INCREASING the risk, that other countries may also end up deciding to leave. They seem to be trying to play HARDBALL.

But I think it may well backfire, and come crashing down around them.

They seem to be serving THEMSELVES (politicians), rather than the VOTING PUBLIC. They seem to think they are some kind of ELITE or something.

I haven't liked what I have seen of the EU recently, it has been a somewhat big turn off.

In many/most countries, about every 4 or 5 years (or whatever), there are General elections. Which potentially change the entire government, and the changes take place (approximately) overnight. This is usually a fairly smooth transition.

We are trying to leave the EU, because they have LOST the vote. They are now acting as if we have declared WAR against the EU (organisation and its countries), rather than just a simple VOTE, which they have lost.

Instead of blaming THEMSELVES and deciding how to improve and solve the issues which the voting public DON'T like. They are just blaming the voters and saying "*horrible*" UK, for deciding to leave us.

tl;dr
Terrible, terrible attitude problems.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on June 30, 2016, 04:12:26 am
As I understand it, until Article 50 is activated, the UK is not under any legal obligation to exit the EU.  From the BREXIT vote, however, the government is under a political obligation to do so.

These are two very different obligations with very different repercussions if they are are not followed through.

While there are certainly a number of matters that could be raised once Article 50 is in play, since that point hasn't been reached, I would like to examine the current situation - which is a political one.


With Cameron's resignation announcement, it would seem obvious that the Article 50 clock isn't going to be starting any time soon - and with the air of political uncertainty, I would like to canvas opinion on this idea....

Could there be a political battle where the whole question of 'Exit' or 'Remain' gets thrown out to the masses again - perhaps in a different format to the referendum - such as a general election - where the subject becomes a campaign topic?

I'm open to any thoughts where the current political obligation could get washed away before commitment to the legal obligation.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 30, 2016, 04:35:06 am
The stability of the political parties is such at the moment that new elections will add to the complexity, I think.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on June 30, 2016, 06:23:04 am
As I understand it, until Article 50 is activated, the UK is not under any legal obligation to exit the EU.  From the BREXIT vote, however, the government is under a political obligation to do so.

These are two very different obligations with very different repercussions if they are are not followed through.
<snip>
I'm open to any thoughts where the current political obligation could get washed away before commitment to the legal obligation.

There was a referendum and the results are in.  To now say, no, we're not going to do it is to say that the election was a fraud, that the opinions of the voters are irrelevant and government knows best.  Were that the case, why vote at all?  Let government pick the leaders and everybody else can follow along.  It would save so much time if there were no elections.  Government knows best...

More important is that the underlying cause of the disenchantment with the EU won't go away.  There will still be open borders, policy will still be dictated in Brussels and the continent still won't care much about the UK because the UK didn't adopt the Euro.  Nothing changes...

The government can either follow through or admit that the UK really isn't a democracy where majority rule matters.

That it might take a couple of months to get the ducks in a row before filing paperwork isn't an unreasonable delay.  What difference does it make how long it takes to file, the status quo exists until the UK is formally out of the EU and that is at least 24 months after a 2 month or so delay.  Not a big deal!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on June 30, 2016, 06:58:35 am
There was a referendum and the results are in.  To now say, no, we're not going to do it is to say that the election was a fraud, that the opinions of the voters are irrelevant and government knows best.
While your point is understood, the fact is that the referendum does not carry the same legal obligation that an election does.  To "overturn" the result would be political dynamite - but there is no legal offence.

As for why it was called - my guess is that Cameron was so sure of his view, that he was happy for the referendum to prove him right.  That was a big OOPS!

Quote
  Were that the case, why vote at all?  Let government pick the leaders and everybody else can follow along.  It would save so much time if there were no elections.  Government knows best...
This could be taken as an argument that the elected officials should make the decision and that the referendum was only to gauge the 'feeling' of the constituency.  Running a country is not something that you can take every decision before the public - not because they aren't entitled to fair decisions, but because it's not always practical and the greater majority do not necessarily have the information or experience to make the right call.  The risk is the ultimate 'design by committee' where even the number of times the salt shaker is shaken gets debated.

Quote
More important is that the underlying cause of the disenchantment with the EU won't go away.  There will still be open borders, policy will still be dictated in Brussels and the continent still won't care much about the UK because the UK didn't adopt the Euro.  Nothing changes...
That's true.

Quote
The government can either follow through or admit that the UK really isn't a democracy where majority rule matters.
Herein begs the question - does the weight of the Referendum (which seeks an opinion) exceed the power of the elected officials that were specifically put in power to run the country?

Sure, to go against public opinion is a political minefield, but it's not as if the majority in the referendum was THAT overwhelming.

Quote
That it might take a couple of months to get the ducks in a row before filing paperwork isn't an unreasonable delay.  What difference does it make how long it takes to file, the status quo exists until the UK is formally out of the EU and that is at least 24 months after a 2 month or so delay.  Not a big deal!
I tend to agree - however, the important event is not when the exit is complete, but when Article 50 is activated.

Until then, there is uncertainty in every quarter.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on June 30, 2016, 07:05:27 am
Taken from a different angle, but this is an example of what I was wondering...

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/29/uk-voted-for-brexit-but-is-there-a-way-back (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/29/uk-voted-for-brexit-but-is-there-a-way-back)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: G7PSK on June 30, 2016, 08:35:15 am
This thread is becoming more and more cartoonish.

The German word for it is "Galgenhumor", gallows humour (?) don't know if that is making any sense in English  :P
We understand the term we invented gallows humour and hold the copyright and patents, but I expect Apple to make a claim.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 30, 2016, 08:35:44 am
I think the UK has larger internal political problems than the EU at the moment, they need to solve that first.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on June 30, 2016, 10:00:02 am
"I think the UK has larger internal political problems than the EU at the moment, they need to solve that first"

I would agree.

With the referendum, it is hard for any UK government not to declare article 50.

What Cameron is trying to do is 1. Maximize uks interest by giving it an option - stretching out the declaration as long as possible, and 2. Not get blamed for the unknown fallout from an article 50 declaration.

He is doing the right and smart thing.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 30, 2016, 10:46:52 am
The stability of the political parties is such at the moment that new elections will add to the complexity, I think.
So basically the people get to vote again for exit and leave but this time through new elections? I wonder how that works for all the other important economic issues at hand. Did the UK twist it's own arm behind it's back?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 30, 2016, 11:17:47 am
The stability of the political parties is such at the moment that new elections will add to the complexity, I think.
So basically the people get to vote again for exit and leave but this time through new elections? I wonder how that works for all the other important economic issues at hand. Did the UK twist it's own arm behind it's back?

If it goes as far as becoming a general election (called early), then in theory (N.B. I'm NO expert in politics and could be wrong) one of the parties (e.g. the main opposition, usually Labour) could offer a second referendum or something. To avoid losing votes, most/all parties could then be forced to do likewise, to avoid losing votes, since about 48% of voters are probably upset by the result.

But I'm speculating, since I'm no expert on politics, and this situation (Brexit), is a fairly new concept, so there is not much past history of similar things here (UK), to go by.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on June 30, 2016, 11:30:15 am
The stability of the political parties is such at the moment that new elections will add to the complexity, I think.
So basically the people get to vote again for exit and leave but this time through new elections? I wonder how that works for all the other important economic issues at hand. Did the UK twist it's own arm behind it's back?

If it goes as far as becoming a general election (called early), then in theory (N.B. I'm NO expert in politics and could be wrong) one of the parties (e.g. the main opposition, usually Labour) could offer a second referendum or something. To avoid losing votes, most/all parties could then be forced to do likewise, to avoid losing votes, since about 48% of voters are probably upset by the result.

But I'm speculating, since I'm no expert on politics, and this situation (Brexit), is a fairly new concept, so there is not much past history of similar things here (UK), to go by.


Superficially it sounds as though it could work.  The big danger is that in appeasing the remain voters the established parties may induce the outraged leave voters to defect to the fascists.  This would be UKIP in the first instance, but they are merely a front for the more organised fascists.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 30, 2016, 11:49:21 am
I see BoJo is not standing - perhaps he decided it was too much of a poisoned chalice after all.

Theresa May might be the best candidate to win cross party support. I'm not keen on her record as Home Sec in terms of snooping regulation but she would be in a better position to try to negotiate with the EU. As she fought (some argue luke-warmly) for the Remain campaign but is known to be fairly Euroskeptic she should appeal to both sides of the argument and, most importantly, could negotiate some form of free movement without reneging on any personal promises.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: StuUK on June 30, 2016, 11:52:21 am
I see BoJo is not standing - perhaps he decided it was too much of a poisoned chalice after all.

Theresa May might be the best candidate to win cross party support. I'm not keen on her record as Home Sec in terms of snooping regulation but she would be in a better position to try to negotiate with the EU. As she fought (some argue luke-warmly) for the Remain campaign but is known to be fairly Euroskeptic she should appeal to both sides of the argument and, most importantly, could negotiate some form of free movement without reneging on any personal promises.

Better than "I'm not fit to be prime minister' Gove but ugh!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 30, 2016, 11:56:05 am
I see BoJo is not standing - perhaps he decided it was too much of a poisoned chalice after all.

Theresa May might be the best candidate to win cross party support. I'm not keen on her record as Home Sec in terms of snooping regulation but she would be in a better position to try to negotiate with the EU. As she fought (some argue luke-warmly) for the Remain campaign but is known to be fairly Euroskeptic she should appeal to both sides of the argument and, most importantly, could negotiate some form of free movement without reneging on any personal promises.

Better than "I'm not fit to be prime minister' Gove but ugh!
Why does modern politics always seem to boil down to least worst option? :sigh:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on June 30, 2016, 11:56:41 am
I see BoJo is not standing
He has more self knowledge then Trump  :)
Probably he felt the climate amongst his peers and saw it was hopeless.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on June 30, 2016, 12:20:23 pm
We are trying to leave the EU, because they have LOST the vote. They are now acting as if we have declared WAR against the EU (organisation and its countries), rather than just a simple VOTE, which they have lost.

Assuming that by "they" you mean the EU: The EU didn't lose the vote as the EU did not hold a referendum.

Instead of blaming THEMSELVES and deciding how to improve and solve the issues which the voting public DON'T like.

Something like 13% of the EU's population is British (give or take). Why should the EU adapt to you? What are you offering in return?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on June 30, 2016, 12:28:02 pm
Superficially it sounds as though it could work.  The big danger is that in appeasing the remain voters the established parties may induce the outraged leave voters to defect to the fascists.  This would be UKIP in the first instance, but they are merely a front for the more organised fascists.
We have embarked upon a dangerous path - and one that I must admit I did not exactly see coming.

I thought, like a lot of people who voted Remain, and like the Remain campaign itself, that this was about whether we stayed in the EU. But it wasn't - even where I could see the Leave campaign talking about immigration, and the NHS I looked at the arguments and rejected them because they were wrong, mendacious even. I knew that immigration was an issue but the evidence is that it is generally good for an economy.

But a substantial slice of the population clearly did not see it that way and believed the Leave campaign - once again we learth that in politics truth is often a casualty.

But that means about 37.5% of our population will vote for someone who runs on a platform of stopping immigration (or, worse, promises repatriation). If the Tories and Labour don't sort themselves out and negotiate a deal which at least looks as though it will significantly reduce immigration then UKIP could easily win a lot of seats at a General Election.

The price of saving ourselves from fascism might well be the inability to negotiate tariff-free access to the single market.

I am slowly beginning to realise just what a dangerous, indeed Faustian, game David Cameron played.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on June 30, 2016, 12:31:38 pm
The stability of the political parties is such at the moment that new elections will add to the complexity, I think.
So basically the people get to vote again for exit and leave but this time through new elections? I wonder how that works for all the other important economic issues at hand. Did the UK twist it's own arm behind it's back?

If it goes as far as becoming a general election (called early), then in theory (N.B. I'm NO expert in politics and could be wrong) one of the parties (e.g. the main opposition, usually Labour) could offer a second referendum or something. To avoid losing votes, most/all parties could then be forced to do likewise, to avoid losing votes, since about 48% of voters are probably upset by the result.

But I'm speculating, since I'm no expert on politics, and this situation (Brexit), is a fairly new concept, so there is not much past history of similar things here (UK), to go by.


Superficially it sounds as though it could work.  The big danger is that in appeasing the remain voters the established parties may induce the outraged leave voters to defect to the fascists.  This would be UKIP in the first instance, but they are merely a front for the more organised fascists.

In practice, an election could enable a 'do-over', with no substantial political poison (well, no more than politicians already deal with.)

If, in an election campaign, you have two leading camps - one supporting 'Remain' and the other 'Exit' then whoever wins will be able to claim a mandate to pursue their declared preference ... and they will have the political numbers to follow through.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 30, 2016, 12:49:39 pm
In practice, an election could enable a 'do-over', with no substantial political poison (well, no more than politicians already deal with.)

If, in an election campaign, you have two leading camps - one supporting 'Remain' and the other 'Exit' then whoever wins will be able to claim a mandate to pursue their declared preference ... and they will have the political numbers to follow through.

The thing is, the EU, and the member countries, DON'T want to interfere with an internal/national UK wide general election. Which is a good thing, so we can decide amongst ourselves,  which party and hence leader, we want to take us forward.

Mixing remain/leave into the mixture, messes things up.

E.g. If Conservatives go for Leave, and Labour go for remain, ignoring other parties for now.

If the EU and/or other EU countries decides to try and put its case forward, to try and swing the 52%:48%, the other way. It could mean we get pressed into choosing a party and hence new prime minister, more based on remain/leave rather than choosing the best one for leading us and running the country for the next 5 years.

E.g. Say UKip are the only ones who go for leave, the others go for remain and/or a second referendum. We could end up getting a new prime minister who may not be the primary choice, if given a "normal" election (free of any Brexit stuff).

This Brexit sort of messes things up (muddies the waters), so maybe is NOT the best "cloud" under which to have a general election.

Also I'm surprised Boris Johnson has pulled out. But he did seem to suddenly go VERY quiet, immediately after the "Brexit" result was announced. So I'm not that surprised on reflection.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on June 30, 2016, 01:19:34 pm
...

The thing is, the EU, and the member countries, DON'T want to interfere with an internal/national UK wide general election. Which is a good thing, so we can decide amongst ourselves,  which party and hence leader, we want to take us forward.
...

That is correct. Also during the referendum there was a gentleman's agreement that EU and member countries would not  interfere or try to impact.



Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Zero999 on June 30, 2016, 01:24:11 pm
Instead of blaming THEMSELVES and deciding how to improve and solve the issues which the voting public DON'T like.

Something like 13% of the EU's population is British (give or take). Why should the EU adapt to you? What are you offering in return?
It's definitely more than 13% of the EU's population who don't like how the EU is run. There are people in other EU states who are dissatisfied with the EU. It's just their governments haven't held a referendum about it.

Then there are those like myself who voted to remain, even though I have some doubts about the EU.

There was a referendum and the results are in.  To now say, no, we're not going to do it is to say that the election was a fraud, that the opinions of the voters are irrelevant and government knows best.
Given the amount of lies told by both sides, the election was one big fraud.

Perhaps the advertising standards commission should be allowed to investigate some of the claims made? It's illegal to advertise a product based on lies so the same should apply to referendum campaign.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on June 30, 2016, 01:40:07 pm
IMF CEO Christine Lagarde  the other day on TV actually accused the UK of being anti-intellectual,...
Everything that doesn't suit their agenda is called anti-intellectual, stupid, uneducated, low-information,...

In the mean time, "intellectual" became a swear word in my culture, kind of synonym of mis-educated or expensively-useless.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on June 30, 2016, 01:43:46 pm
It's definitely more than 13% of the EU's population who don't like how the EU is run.

There are people in other EU states who are dissatisfied with the EU.
That is very likely true, but it is beside the point...

It's just their governments haven't held a referendum about it.
...because of this.

Also, the UK has not and will not be entering into negotiations with people, meaning the electorates, in the other EU states. What matters in this case is how flexible the other governments in the EU will be.

The point I was trying to make is that the current mess is Cameron's fault.  It cannot be blamed on the other governments.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 30, 2016, 01:47:45 pm
Superficially it sounds as though it could work.  The big danger is that in appeasing the remain voters the established parties may induce the outraged leave voters to defect to the fascists.  This would be UKIP in the first instance, but they are merely a front for the more organised fascists.
That will sort itself. Over here we had Wilders in the government for a few months and when things got slightly difficult (oops, there really is no money to hand out for free) he pushed the eject button and we all went to vote again. Fortunately for Wilders he didn't got elected again so he could go back to yelling from the sidelines.

If the EU and/or other EU countries decides to try and put its case forward, to try and swing the 52%:48%, the other way. It could mean we get pressed into choosing a party and hence new prime minister, more based on remain/leave rather than choosing the best one for leading us and running the country for the next 5 years.
Which is what I was referring to by 'the Brittish twisting their arm behind their own back'. Any election will be all about stay or leave.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on June 30, 2016, 01:48:43 pm
It's definitely more than 13% of the EU's population who don't like how the EU is run. There are people in other EU states who are dissatisfied with the EU. It's just their governments haven't held a referendum about it.

Then there are those like myself who voted to remain, even though I have some doubts about the EU.

I think it's strange in cases like UK, Belgium, Ukraine, Spain,.. where there is such a huge geographical split line between remain/leave, the whole country has to vote before anything can change.

Why wasn't britain allowed to vote out of EU? They clearly wanted it, and Scotland could have stayed.
With a voting result different of some percentages, the other half of the country would have been happy/unhappy.

I believe in strong voluntary partnerships, and strong rejection of unvoluntary partnerships.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on June 30, 2016, 02:01:48 pm
... Over here we had Wilders in the government for a few months and when things got slightly difficult (oops, there really is no money to hand out for free) he pushed the eject button and we all went to vote again. Fortunately for Wilders he didn't got elected again so he could go back to yelling from the sidelines.
Why do you spread lies about your country?

Wilders was not in the goverment, but supported that minority goverment.
Wilders pushed the eject button because the others didn't want to keep the pensions for retired people on the same level.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on June 30, 2016, 02:07:56 pm
IMF CEO Christine Lagarde  the other day on TV actually accused the UK of being anti-intellectual,...
Everything that doesn't suit their agenda is called anti-intellectual, stupid, uneducated, low-information,...

In the mean time, "intellectual" became a swear word in my culture, kind of synonym of mis-educated or expensively-useless.

As someone said:  "Wenn ich Kultur höre ... entsichere ich meinen Browning!"


Edit:  someone in a play - but for a particular anti-intellectual audience.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on June 30, 2016, 02:10:47 pm
...Also,Scotland was a country in its own right for hundreds of years before the formation of the UK.
If countries which were former victims of Soviet aggression can join the EU,surely that also applies to former victims of English aggression.
Where can former victims of EU agression go?
The list grows...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on June 30, 2016, 02:24:25 pm
Mixing remain/leave into the mixture, messes things up.

E.g. If Conservatives go for Leave, and Labour go for remain, ignoring other parties for now.

If the EU and/or other EU countries decides to try and put its case forward, to try and swing the 52%:48%, the other way. It could mean we get pressed into choosing a party and hence new prime minister, more based on remain/leave rather than choosing the best one for leading us and running the country for the next 5 years.

E.g. Say UKip are the only ones who go for leave, the others go for remain and/or a second referendum. We could end up getting a new prime minister who may not be the primary choice, if given a "normal" election (free of any Brexit stuff).

This Brexit sort of messes things up (muddies the waters), so maybe is NOT the best "cloud" under which to have a general election.

While I understand your point, I have to ask: How is this any different to the normal election campaign dilemma faced by voters?  Standing in the ballot booth asking yourself: I like A and B of party "X" and C and D of party "Y". Now, who to choose?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on June 30, 2016, 02:36:23 pm
Referendums are not legally binding, it is the parliament that has to make the decision to leave. The parliament is also elected. Referendums are a way to ask the people directly what they want, i.e. a form of direct democracy, in contrast to the parliament which is a form of representative democracy. There is a reason why all democratic countries use some form of representative democracy for almost all decisions. Most policy decisions are complex and have far reaching consequences that requires a lot of specialist knowledge to fully appreciate. It's impossible for everyone to be an expert on every issue. That is why we elect representatives whose job it is to study these complex issues and make the best informed decision possible. Consequently, if you have a referendum the people needs all the information it can get in order to make a good rational decision. Problem with the EU referendum is that British politicians and media were not providing information, they just blasted out lies and bullshit blaming all problems in Britain on the EU. It's not strange lots of people wanted to leave.

Cameron wanted to prevent a split of his own political party so he selfishly gambled that a referendum would shut up the populist anti-EU people in the Tories once and for all. That backfired and the results are really troubling for the UK, not only a majority for leave but also revealing just how divided the UK is.

Cameron was also elected by the people, he doesn't have to follow the referendum and activate article 50. But the thing is, it was Cameron who wanted the referendum, he basically said "I'll do whatever you the people decide". Now he can perfectly legally ignore the results but that is like saying "well sod it, I don't care what the plebs think, I don't want to leave so the UK is not leaving on my watch". That is probably what someone like Trump would have done, and who knows that kind of strongman rhetoric might even appeal to part of the demographic that voted leave.

EU wanted the UK to stay, there are enough problems to deal with without a Brexit. But if the people of the UK want out it seems like the right thing for the UK government to do is to activate article 50 as soon as possible. No one benefits from the uncertainty. Staying now is just rude, both towards the British people who voted leave and against the other EU member countries (and other countries like US and Japan) who are all suffering economically because of this.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 30, 2016, 02:41:23 pm
... Over here we had Wilders in the government for a few months and when things got slightly difficult (oops, there really is no money to hand out for free) he pushed the eject button and we all went to vote again. Fortunately for Wilders he didn't got elected again so he could go back to yelling from the sidelines.
Why do you spread lies about your country?

Wilders was not in the goverment, but supported that minority goverment.
Wilders pushed the eject button because the others didn't want to keep the pensions for retired people on the same level.
Supporting is the same as being in the government (how else could he have made it fall?). And keeping the pensions for the retired people on the same level just wasn't possible. Also though choices needed to be made at that time (around 2009 IIRC) and the sooner they where made the better. Needing to vote again didn't help the economy.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kalvin on June 30, 2016, 02:57:13 pm
Cameron left a warm turd behind him, and now there is nobody who wants to touch it (If you touch it, the smell will stick to you and you are pretty much doomed. If you don't the smell will get worse). Cameron himself has escaped the responsibility of cleaning his own mess.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: GEuser on June 30, 2016, 03:28:57 pm
IMF CEO Christine Lagarde  the other day on TV actually accused the UK of being anti-intellectual,...
Everything that doesn't suit their agenda is called anti-intellectual, stupid, uneducated, low-information,...

In the mean time, "intellectual" became a swear word in my culture, kind of synonym of mis-educated or expensively-useless.

Yeh i' aware about the past , i have looked and studied and seen what has happened with that word .

It was sort of the point i was getting at , in one sense it (Lagarde) was claiming victimization by the said common standard perpetrators in which it would have been well aware of , in other words accusing the British of being those of the past , and then in the other sense claiming it was a intellect and one should listen to it as it is a superior one at that claiming the Fame , yet the past just about says that there has been quite alot of dramas had over and rights fought for by the British (and others) which is exactly the opposite of what Lagarde was implying , if it was walking past here out the front i would have gone out there and dropped it .

In another way one could see it as "pulling the race card out" and playing it (that saying) .

Poking about in history a lot seem to forget or just do not know about Belgium and what happened there early 1900's 1st ww era, i saw a TV doco and a no bullshit one at that about the terrible story there , the doco correlated to what is in books yet it's not a common story .

anyway getting off the topic ?...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 30, 2016, 03:29:22 pm
Cameron left a warm turd behind him, and now there is nobody who wants to touch it (If you touch it, you are pretty much doomed. If you don't the smell will get worse). Cameron himself has escaped the responsibility of cleaning his own mess.

The UK is full the Spider Captains (Spanish  expression that define a person that manipulates and  lies to other people for joining a determined action but when the action go to begin , the instigator disappears)

Boris Johnson is not presented as candidate to replace Cameron.

http://www.libertaddigital.com/internacional/europa/2016-06-30/boris-johnson-no-se-presenta-como-candidato-para-sustituir-a-cameron-1276577487/ (http://www.libertaddigital.com/internacional/europa/2016-06-30/boris-johnson-no-se-presenta-como-candidato-para-sustituir-a-cameron-1276577487/)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: GEuser on June 30, 2016, 04:04:26 pm
Cameron left a warm turd behind him, and now there is nobody who wants to touch it (If you touch it, you are pretty much doomed. If you don't the smell will get worse). Cameron himself has escaped the responsibility of cleaning his own mess.

The UK is full the Spider Captains (Spanish  expression that define a person that manipulates and  lies to other people for joining a determined action but when the action go to begin , the instigator disappears)

Boris Johnson is not presented as candidate to replace Cameron.

http://www.libertaddigital.com/internacional/europa/2016-06-30/boris-johnson-no-se-presenta-como-candidato-para-sustituir-a-cameron-1276577487/ (http://www.libertaddigital.com/internacional/europa/2016-06-30/boris-johnson-no-se-presenta-como-candidato-para-sustituir-a-cameron-1276577487/)

HaHa out here a person who is a spider is Creepy or many hands in everything (dual purpose meaning so has to be in context) , so i wonder if Boris had pressure from outside put on him , or , it was/is just a too big a issue for him mentally ? , it'll come out much later i guess ..

A loss though imo ..
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 30, 2016, 04:17:05 pm
It's definitely more than 13% of the EU's population who don't like how the EU is run.

There are people in other EU states who are dissatisfied with the EU.
That is very likely true, but it is beside the point...

Your country seems to abandon the Schengen agreement:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qsXDtDklQY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qsXDtDklQY)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 30, 2016, 04:21:10 pm
I see BoJo is not standing - perhaps he decided it was too much of a poisoned chalice after all.

Theresa May might be the best candidate to win cross party support. I'm not keen on her record as Home Sec in terms of snooping regulation but she would be in a better position to try to negotiate with the EU. As she fought (some argue luke-warmly) for the Remain campaign but is known to be fairly Euroskeptic she should appeal to both sides of the argument and, most importantly, could negotiate some form of free movement without reneging on any personal promises.

It's much more likely that he was stabbed in the back by Gove.
Boris  and the MP's in his camp most likely figured that he had no chance of winning.
It's also a smart move for him in the long term.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on June 30, 2016, 04:30:47 pm
IMF CEO Christine Lagarde  the other day on TV actually accused the UK of being anti-intellectual , that was at the end of one of it's talks saying generally that they have done the modeling and studies and have found out that the UK will pay dearly if they leave and it would be madness if they did , their own studies (the IMF) have found out this , so just at the end it said the anti-intellectual comment .

One would have thought to be anti-intellectual against someone or something one would have to be a (the target) intellectual in the 1st place , says the orange fake tan or not hypocrite , they are so far up their own arseholes that they do not see the Shit!  imo of course .

I also notice another comment in the posts defending that junker dude about the language use , imo ,, the language used by those types is not a misrepresentation of the English translation used from their native language , i have seen it heard it enough times lately also assuming a translation error but now have decided that there "is" no error in translation (which can happen btw) and they mean what they mean , quite pompas gits imo and very very superior .

I really dislike analyzing those types , normally i do not analyze at all unless something catches my attention , borderline insanity springs to mind there ... with a method .

It's also interesting to note that her predecessor Dominique Strauss-Kahn took the view that "The EU needed to wake up and smell the coffee"
His career took a very bad turn.
As far as I recall he wasn't convicted of anything.
Strange   :-X   ;D

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on June 30, 2016, 04:50:51 pm
Your country seems to abandon the Schengen agreement:
Doubtful - unless the agreement simply falls apart by itself. The parliament has a massive pro-EU majority.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 30, 2016, 05:00:04 pm
Your country seems to abandon the Schengen agreement:
Doubtful - unless the agreement simply falls apart by itself. The parliament has a massive pro-EU majority.
Check the video, it reinstated passport control on the border with Germany.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on June 30, 2016, 05:02:59 pm
Check the video, it reinstated passport control on the border with Germany.
No, not passport control. Random ID checks. Citizens from Schengen have free access.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on June 30, 2016, 05:04:03 pm
I knew that immigration was an issue but the evidence is that it is generally good for an economy.

That simply illustrates that you did not fully understand the immigration issue.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 30, 2016, 05:09:14 pm
Mixing remain/leave into the mixture, messes things up.

E.g. If Conservatives go for Leave, and Labour go for remain, ignoring other parties for now.

If the EU and/or other EU countries decides to try and put its case forward, to try and swing the 52%:48%, the other way. It could mean we get pressed into choosing a party and hence new prime minister, more based on remain/leave rather than choosing the best one for leading us and running the country for the next 5 years.

E.g. Say UKip are the only ones who go for leave, the others go for remain and/or a second referendum. We could end up getting a new prime minister who may not be the primary choice, if given a "normal" election (free of any Brexit stuff).

This Brexit sort of messes things up (muddies the waters), so maybe is NOT the best "cloud" under which to have a general election.

While I understand your point, I have to ask: How is this any different to the normal election campaign dilemma faced by voters?  Standing in the ballot booth asking yourself: I like A and B of party "X" and C and D of party "Y". Now, who to choose?

That is a very good point. E.g. Unemployment and/or inflation may be way too high, and so the vote is MAINLY about how and which party will be able to best handle it and get it under control. One with excessive new loans, the other in a much more financially realistic way, etc etc.

I suppose "Brexit" is the "current" political problem/ill-wind. So the next general election, whenever it is, will probably be lots to do with "Brexit", with some other issues thrown in. Unless "Brexit" is fully resolved BEFORE the next general election, which is probably unlikely (but NOT impossible).

Another problem is that each of the main parties, has (probably) many of its members (politicians) in either the remain or leave camps. Much like the 48%:52% voting pattern, on referendum day. Which further complicates the issues.

Part of the overall issue (brexit) is that the EU tends to be politically neutral or leftish, depending on your interpretation/opinion. But the growing (voting) trend is tending to be rightish, because of some people being concerned about immigration, and also lack of voting rights/control (as regards the EU).
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 30, 2016, 05:12:49 pm
Check the video, it reinstated passport control on the border with Germany.
No, not passport control. Random ID checks. Citizens from Schengen have free access.

This violates the Schengen agreement.

As for 'random', do you really believe it? They profiled two young men in a non Denish car.

Honesty is a key requirement for a productive discussion.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 30, 2016, 05:18:13 pm
... because of some people being concerned about immigration...

They are concerned about uncontrolled immigration, where a country cannot select the immigrants that have merit, as most countries do.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on June 30, 2016, 05:25:12 pm
This violates the Schengen agreement.
The temporary controls have been approved by the Commission
http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/reintroduction-border-control/index_en.htm (http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/reintroduction-border-control/index_en.htm)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on June 30, 2016, 05:54:56 pm
This violates the Schengen agreement.
The temporary controls have been approved by the Commission
http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/reintroduction-border-control/index_en.htm (http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/reintroduction-border-control/index_en.htm)

Good link.

The full list of border control by country is here http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/reintroduction-border-control/docs/ms_notifications_-_reintroduction_of_border_control_en.pdf (http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/reintroduction-border-control/docs/ms_notifications_-_reintroduction_of_border_control_en.pdf)

Denmark now extends that 'temporary, bare minimum and last resort respond to threat' a few months at a time since Feb 2016. Compare with a single previous invocation in 2009 for 6 days during the UN Climate Change Conference.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 30, 2016, 06:03:51 pm
... because of some people being concerned about immigration...

They are concerned about uncontrolled immigration, where a country cannot select the immigrants that have merit, as most countries do.

I agree with your "better", way of presenting the point.

A modest quantity of mainly people filling essential roles, whereby there are NOT enough locals, to do it. E.g. support of a new large engineering electrical plant, whereby highly skilled/rare/very-smart individuals are needed. Such as a new integrated circuit design and manufacturing plant.

Allowing HUGE (too many) numbers of people to flood the UK, will potentially ruin the quality of life, for the original population.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on June 30, 2016, 07:00:46 pm
Part of the overall issue (brexit) is that the EU tends to be politically neutral or leftish, depending on your interpretation/opinion. But the growing (voting) trend is tending to be rightish, because of some people being concerned about immigration, and also lack of voting rights/control (as regards the EU).
I'm sorry but that is complete BS unless you have a very unique interpretation of what is to be considered "leftish", as can be seen here: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/hemicycle.html (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/hemicycle.html)

(http://www.europarl.europa.eu/plenary/img/photo/hemicycle_interactif.png)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on June 30, 2016, 07:18:06 pm
Check the video, it reinstated passport control on the border with Germany.
No, not passport control. Random ID checks. Citizens from Schengen have free access.

This violates the Schengen agreement.

As for 'random', do you really believe it? They profiled two young men in a non Denish car.

Honesty is a key requirement for a productive discussion.

Schengen allows directed ID checks.  All though of course it should be on reasonable grounds, not racial profiling.  The latter is difficult to prove, but Denmark is the sort of country where such an accusation would be taken seriously.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 30, 2016, 07:21:34 pm
Part of the overall issue (brexit) is that the EU tends to be politically neutral or leftish, depending on your interpretation/opinion. But the growing (voting) trend is tending to be rightish, because of some people being concerned about immigration, and also lack of voting rights/control (as regards the EU).
I'm sorry but that is complete BS unless you have a very unique interpretation of what is to be considered "leftish", as can be seen here: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/hemicycle.html (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/hemicycle.html)

(http://www.europarl.europa.eu/plenary/img/photo/hemicycle_interactif.png)

You seem to be talking about the political parties that make up the various political members of the EU.

What I meant, was the EU as an overall organization in its own right. Which mostly/fully does NOT allow voting of the general public (directly), as far as I am aware.

Above I have more explained problems with lack of voting of the general public (by the EU), rather than explaining why a leftish political slant was applied. The leftish political line, is because of things like rich countries have to pay for poor countries. That is a leftish concept. There are other leftish (socialist) things about the overall EU organization.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on June 30, 2016, 07:45:51 pm
Part of the overall issue (brexit) is that the EU tends to be politically neutral or leftish, depending on your interpretation/opinion. But the growing (voting) trend is tending to be rightish, because of some people being concerned about immigration, and also lack of voting rights/control (as regards the EU).
I'm sorry but that is complete BS unless you have a very unique interpretation of what is to be considered "leftish", as can be seen here: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/hemicycle.html (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/hemicycle.html)

(http://www.europarl.europa.eu/plenary/img/photo/hemicycle_interactif.png)

You seem to be talking about the political parties that make up the various political members of the EU.

What I meant, was the EU as an overall organization in its own right. Which mostly/fully does NOT allow voting of the general public (directly), as far as I am aware.

Above I have more explained problems with lack of voting of the general public (by the EU), rather than explaining why a leftish political slant was applied. The leftish political line, is because of things like rich countries have to pay for poor countries. That is a leftish concept. There are other leftish (socialist) things about the overall EU organization.

Spanish Historic feats on America

First vignette:
Blas de Lezo: I defended to Cartagenas de Indias with only 3000 spanish
Cortes: Bah ,That's nothing.

Second vignette:

Cortes: I conquested to Mexico with only 500 spanish
Maduro: Bah ,That's nothing.

Last vignette:

Maduro : I bankrupted  to Venezuela only with four spanish advisers of "PODEMOS"


Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on June 30, 2016, 07:47:01 pm
Part of the overall issue (brexit) is that the EU tends to be politically neutral or leftish, depending on your interpretation/opinion. But the growing (voting) trend is tending to be rightish, because of some people being concerned about immigration, and also lack of voting rights/control (as regards the EU).
I'm sorry but that is complete BS unless you have a very unique interpretation of what is to be considered "leftish", as can be seen here: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/hemicycle.html (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/hemicycle.html)

(http://www.europarl.europa.eu/plenary/img/photo/hemicycle_interactif.png)



You seem to be talking about the political parties that make up the various political members of the EU.

What I meant, was the EU as an overall organization in its own right. Which mostly/fully does NOT allow voting of the general public (directly), as far as I am aware.

Above I have more explained problems with lack of voting of the general public (by the EU), rather than explaining why a leftish political slant was applied. The leftish political line, is because of things like rich countries have to pay for poor countries. That is a leftish concept. There are other leftish (socialist) things about the overall EU organization.



Certainly if you regard setting up a community of different countries with the four freedoms as 'leftist' then you are going to regard the EU as leftist.   So, yes, having an EU at all is 'leftist' in that sense.  But then so is allowing Trade Unions and having social security and subsidised health services.   There is probably quite a large majority consensus for most of those things in Europe, leftist as they may be.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on June 30, 2016, 08:04:07 pm
You seem to be talking about the political parties that make up the various political members of the EU.

What I meant, was the EU as an overall organization in its own right. Which mostly/fully does NOT allow voting of the general public (directly), as far as I am aware.

Above I have more explained problems with lack of voting of the general public (by the EU), rather than explaining why a leftist political slant was applied. The leftish political line, is because of things like rich countries have to pay for poor countries. That is a leftish concept. There are other leftish (socialist) things about the overall EU organization.
The picture shows the composition of the European parliament. The other part of the EU with power is the council of ministers which consists of representatives from each member state's government (people elect their governments who then send representatives to the council). You will find the council is not dominated by the left but rather reflect how the populations in all European member states are voting in their national parliaments. Currently members aligned with ALDE/EPP make up the majority in the council as well (unsurprisingly the same as in the European parliament).
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on June 30, 2016, 08:19:07 pm
The picture shows the composition of the European parliament. The other part of the EU with power is the council of ministers which consists of representatives from each member state's government (people elect their governments who then send representatives to the council). You will find the council is not dominated by the left but rather reflect how the populations in all European member states are voting in their national parliaments. Currently members aligned with ALDE/EPP make up the majority in the council as well (unsurprisingly the same as in the European parliament).

The UK has a tendency to be partly European and partly American (e.g. Capitalism), in its overall makeup. Which is part of the reason, why (historically), the UK often does well with America, such as fighting battles together (World war 2, and other conflicts, before and after world war 2).
So maybe there are differences, between being "purely" European, and being partly European and partly American/Capitalistic.

A couple of decades or so ago, the liberal democrats (and similar parties) in the UK, had a tiny following, of maybe 1 or 2% of the population. They were a minority political party. (Most of the time, but I vaguely remember (or learnt from history), that at times they have been more successful, including somewhat recently, making a recent coalition government with the conservatives).

So maybe there are fundamental political differences between the UK, and the EU (Parliament).

But even so, I think that there are reports that other current EU countries may also end up having referendums about EU membership. Potentially voting to leave as well.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 30, 2016, 09:13:11 pm
Two points;   firstly, he is not asking the UK to leave straight away, he is asking them to start the two year process straight away.  And secondly it is not *his* baby, it is the project of the founders of the EU, and one the UK has always resisted.  I am not necessarily disagreeing with your conclusions, just correcting the details.

Well, he wants the "divorce" (as he calls it) to happen as soon as possible.  It isn't necessarily two years - it's up to two years from when article 50 is initiated, and he is calling for the process to happen ASAP.  He's shown that he takes the vote personally and he's insulted and feels jilted (IMO from his comments).  I say the EU is his baby because he is the current President of the commission, not that I'm under the illusion that he founded the EU.  Brexit happened under his watch, and considering he was the one (ultimately) that refused to give the concessions Cameron wanted, and refused to reach out to UK voters and/or address the concerns they had, and his heavy-handed rhetoric towards Brexit voters, he's one of the most responsible parties for the eventual outcome.  He presided over the second largest economy of the EU leaving in a repudiation of his policies and his tactics, and he's spiteful and angry about it.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on June 30, 2016, 09:13:30 pm
The UK has a tendency to be partly European and partly American (e.g. Capitalism), in its overall makeup. Which is part of the reason, why (historically), the UK often does well with America, such as fighting battles together (World war 2, and other conflicts, before and after world war 2).
So maybe there are differences, between being "purely" European, and being partly European and partly American/Capitalistic.

A decade or so ago, the liberal democrats (and similar parties) in the UK, had a tiny following, of maybe 1 or 2% of the population. They were a minority political party.

So maybe there are fundamental political differences between the UK, and the EU (Parliament).
The US fought and declared independence from you guys in 1776 and they have been celebrating the day ever since (next time in three days now). During WW2 France and Britain declared war on Germany 3 sep 1939. The US didn't join until dec 1941 after Pearl Harbour and the germans and Italy declared war on them. The special relation during more recent wars is spelled Nato. Aside from the fact that you speak the same language the US/British relations are no more special than the US/Danish. The largest ethnic demographic in the US are those of german decent! A thought: perhaps all that talk about special relations is something all leaders say to each others when they want to be polite?

Quote from: President of the United States of America
The UK is going to be in the back of the queue.
And by your definition of leftist slant, both the US and the UK would also have a leftist slant.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 30, 2016, 09:37:52 pm

We aren't into the time period prescribed by the treaty yet because we have not invoked Article 50 (yet)

I'm not sure whether Europe is just behaving like a jilted lover or trying to take advantage of the fact that the UK political system is in turmoil at the moment but they do need to back off and let us sort out our end. No-one expected this result and it has rocked the boat rather a lot.

My main worry is that there will be a General Election - not unreasonable as there is the potential for new leaders of both Labour and the Tories and the view of Parliament - where most MPs favour Remain - is at odds with the views of the people.
The problem is that Labour are unelectable, certainly with Corbyn as leader and probably with anyone who might replace him and I am a little worried that UKIP could step into that void. BoJo as PM is one thing but Farage is quite another. FWIW I don't think it would come to that but the prospect is alarming.

The other problem is that they appear to be unmoveable on the free movement thing which might make negotiations difficult. Whatever you feel about the outpouring of sentiment over the issue it is clear that unless those that voted Leave can see a clear policy in place that will reduce the attractiveness of the UK to economic migrants from the poorer parts of Europe the electorate will get even more angry. Perhaps we could allow free movement of labour without free movement of people - i.e can come if you have already fixed up a job, perhaps if we allow free movement of people but no benefits, I don't know.

I agree with all you wrote.

I think Juncker's demands (suggestions, I suppose these days) are unreasonable... I know Cameron has gotten a lot of criticism for stepping down but I think he did the right thing.  It would be difficult to spearhead an initiative you don't agree with.  A "cooling off period" is a very wise thing - so that people don't react emotionally and instead act in the best interests of the people they represent.

I think it's fair that the EU wants to bundle free access to the market with free movement... I think it's a foolish thing that they be linked, but since they are, to separate them out would undermine the authority and "raison d'etre" of the EU, so I don't blame them for saying their linkage is non-negotiable.  The EU says they won't budge on this, but I don't think much negotiation has taken place yet (other than in the tabloids). 

I am positive that a deal can be worked out - both sides have plenty to lose and plenty to gain from a sweetheart trade deal, but I think the trick will probably be in coming up with something that both sides can sell to their electorate as a "win", while respecting the need to make a deal.  The UK is in a unique position.  Geographically and logistically, they are the gateway to Europe.  They also share a common language with the largest/wealthiest economy in the world.  I am sure there's things they could devise/implement which would be a huge boon to UK trade.  One example off the top of my head would be reducing/eliminating the outrageous aircraft landing fees which would siphon off traffic from Charles De Gaulle, Schiphol and Madrid.  They could also dramatically reduce or eliminate import fees for shipments from the Americas.  They should be able to negotiate a better rate to export stuff from the UK to the EU than the rate that's paid by countries in the Americas to the EU.  Then the UK could eliminate or drastically cut tariffs to import into the UK - and suddenly the UK would be *the* go-to place and conduit for all companies in the Americas who wish to do business in the EU.  They could do the same with red-tape and laws/paperwork regarding manufacturing.  If they can negotiate a better tariff from UK->EU than other countries have, and they can reduce the burden of operating in the UK, then they could see a resurgence of manufacturing - just like how Honda, Toyota and other manufacturers have been opening plants in the USA rather than shipping from Japan.

In short, the UK leadership needs to analyze what the differences are between the UK and EU, then leverage those differences to create a business-friendly environment.  If they can do that, they could experience an economic boom that would be unprecedented.  However, I fear that political infighting and power-mongering will stymie such intiatives.  I'm a British citizen myself and I live there about half the year, and with all due respect to my fellow Brits and to my homeland, one of the big problems in the UK is the hatred towards those who are successful and the fact that most Brits (in my experience) would rather make sure nobody else is getting something they aren't getting, even if it causes them economic harm.  So sweetheart trade deals will be criticized by the opposition as being designed for big-business and to help the rich, the same with the other ideas I had above - and most of the things the UK should do probably can't be done, because everyone will want to make sure they downvote and block anything that might funnel money into the pockets of someone whose already wealthy.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on June 30, 2016, 09:42:46 pm
1. The referendum result is not legally binding, the UK parliament makes the final decision.
2. EU can't begin planing an exit before the UK activates article 50, after that there will be a minimum of 2 years to plan all the logistical and legal issues (and more) before formally leaving.

The UK government is currently stalling, holding the rest of Europe hostage. They should make their intentions clear to dispel as much uncertainty as possible and let people begin planing for the future. The UK government deciding to ignore the referendum would not be very democratic. Everyone in EU, except nationalists, are unhappy to see the UK leave, but if the people of Britain voted for a Brexit that should be respected and the UK government should therefore activate article 50.

This is Johnson's and Cameron's fault, they keep blaming their own failings on the EU. Cameron wanted the referendum to save his own party from splitting, gambling that the British would be smart enough not to shoot themselves in the foot. Unfortunately the people decided this was a good time to give the establishment the finger and everyone lost. Well, at least the UK, it might not be so bad for the rest of EU after all. Some are afraid of a domino effect but I suspect the Brexit might actually make it less likely for other member states to leave now that they see what is happening in the UK. No other EU government is going to try exit referendums any time soon, that's for sure.

1) Yes, the referendum is not legally binding, but everyone knows it is going to happen.  To say that we don't know what will happen until it's official is just false.  It's really just a paperwork issue.
2) Sure they can plan.  They already are planning.  The claims that they are deadlocked until it's official are false.

The UK isn't holding anyone hostage.  The EU is free to do whatever it likes.  I think the UK will be just fine, as will the EU.  For the EU to blame the UK for any economic ills is unwarranted.  They are just creating a scapegoat.

The process will take months if not years.  There will be ups and downs as the process proceeds, and ultimately we all know the end result.  It's up to the UK what they do economically from here on.  It's absolutely not a given that they will do worse, economically, than if they had stayed in the EU, just as it's equally not a given whether the EU will do better or worse.  It all depends on what the legislation and trade deals they enact over the coming months look like. 
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on June 30, 2016, 11:43:50 pm
Geographically and logistically, they are the gateway to Europe.
What have you been smoking??? Whatever gets shipped into the UK overseas has to be shipped out again overseas so that doesn't work very well. Add the exchange rate risks to that and you should see the problem. No UK harbour is in the top 10 of these lists when it comes to cargo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_busiest_ports_in_Europe
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 01, 2016, 12:11:49 am
1) Yes, the referendum is not legally binding, but everyone knows it is going to happen.  To say that we don't know what will happen until it's official is just false.  It's really just a paperwork issue.
2) Sure they can plan.  They already are planning.  The claims that they are deadlocked until it's official are false.

The UK isn't holding anyone hostage.  The EU is free to do whatever it likes.  I think the UK will be just fine, as will the EU.  For the EU to blame the UK for any economic ills is unwarranted.  They are just creating a scapegoat.
1) The US president isn't certain either:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2016/jun/30/obama-talks-brexit-video (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2016/jun/30/obama-talks-brexit-video)
The longer the UK government postpone activating article 50 the more likely they never will. There is no reason to wait, just activate it and begin negotiations, they have 2 years minimum to negotiate and the period can be extended. Looks more and more likely they are going to try to weasel out of it imo.

2) The UK will not sink into the sea but they won't be "fine". Just to give one example: several researchers will lose their funding if the UK leaves the EU, and at the moment they will have no idea if they should start looking for a new job or continue with their EU funded research projects. Activating article 50 is the only thing that counts if the UK is going to leave. EU doesn't even have the power to kick out the UK if they decide to ignore the referendum.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 01, 2016, 12:29:13 am
1) The US president isn't certain either:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2016/jun/30/obama-talks-brexit-video (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2016/jun/30/obama-talks-brexit-video)
The longer the UK government postpone activating article 50 the more likely they never will. There is no reason to wait, just activate it and begin negotiations, they have 2 years minimum to negotiate and the period can be extended. Looks more and more likely they are going to try to weasel out of it imo.

This is an UK internal process. If and when their parliament will decide to leave they will notify the EU. Same goes for any other member.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Macbeth on July 01, 2016, 12:34:16 am
Can I just remind the EU that UK are the 2nd largest contributor after Germany to the project and the sooner we are gone the sooner that large chunk of regular cash vanishes.

Of course Juncker and his chums in the commission will not lower their salaries and all the other benefits to reflect that loss, indeed I imagine they will be claiming much overtime and other crisis expenses to deal with it. This gravy training just amplifies the loss of the UK contribution to normal EU citizens who usually benefit.

Why is the EU so anxious to get us to invoke article 50? Personally I agree - the sooner the better. But it seems odd to me that the EU don't want to string this one out for as long as possible though. It's a lot of lucre to be giving up.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 01, 2016, 03:31:39 am
The betting odds say no article 50 this year. They were wrong about the referendum at odds of only 25% for Leave winning.

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/article-50-triggered-in-2016 (http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/article-50-triggered-in-2016)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on July 01, 2016, 04:53:22 am
Two points;   firstly, he is not asking the UK to leave straight away, he is asking them to start the two year process straight away.  And secondly it is not *his* baby, it is the project of the founders of the EU, and one the UK has always resisted.  I am not necessarily disagreeing with your conclusions, just correcting the details.

Well, he wants the "divorce" (as he calls it) to happen as soon as possible.  It isn't necessarily two years - it's up to two years from when article 50 is initiated, and he is calling for the process to happen ASAP.  He's shown that he takes the vote personally and he's insulted and feels jilted (IMO from his comments).  I say the EU is his baby because he is the current President of the commission, not that I'm under the illusion that he founded the EU.  Brexit happened under his watch, and considering he was the one (ultimately) that refused to give the concessions Cameron wanted, and refused to reach out to UK voters and/or address the concerns they had, and his heavy-handed rhetoric towards Brexit voters, he's one of the most responsible parties for the eventual outcome.  He presided over the second largest economy of the EU leaving in a repudiation of his policies and his tactics, and he's spiteful and angry about it.

In addition if there's no agreement then it's WTO rules.
I wonder if the EU Canada agreement includes free movement of people.  :D
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on July 01, 2016, 05:24:42 am
I see the way of acting of the minister british,and they never  really want to go out . They only want  to Europe give all the right but not the duties.

The british are cheeks
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 01, 2016, 05:29:33 am
Why is the EU so anxious to get us to invoke article 50? Personally I agree - the sooner the better. But it seems odd to me that the EU don't want to string this one out for as long as possible though. It's a lot of lucre to be giving up.
A guess: Getting rid of the UK means getting rid of the brakeman who slows down the ever-increasing-union train.

As for the UK's pecuniary contributions to the EU coffers - what is the net contribution actually? How much will the EU system actually lose when the money flow from the EU coffers to the UK also stops?

I'm going to miss that brakeman, though.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on July 01, 2016, 06:58:02 am
I'm going to miss that brakeman, though.

Makes me wonder ...

Is there another member of the EU that has the ability to be the 'brakeman'?

If not, does the EU have any inherent safety mechanisms to keep the hierarchy accountable and under 'control'?  (I only ask because there have been several comments about self-serving leadership.)


It would seem that what happens to the UK after exiting the EU is just as interesting a question as to what happens to the EU.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Ice-Tea on July 01, 2016, 07:10:34 am
/*snip*/  (I only ask because there have been several comments about self-serving leadership.)

This is just generic politics trashing. On whatever political topic (actually, if you read the comments section in online news, this goes for all topics), you will see comments claiming politicians are only there to fill their pockets. Which may be true or not but most of the time it is hardly relevant to the discussion. If you take a look at the budgets concerned, the salary package of the politicians concerned hardly matters. It's just a populist jab.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: G7PSK on July 01, 2016, 07:34:48 am
Why is the EU so anxious to get us to invoke article 50? Personally I agree - the sooner the better. But it seems odd to me that the EU don't want to string this one out for as long as possible though. It's a lot of lucre to be giving up.
A guess: Getting rid of the UK means getting rid of the brakeman who slows down the ever-increasing-union train.

As for the UK's pecuniary contributions to the EU coffers - what is the net contribution actually? How much will the EU system actually lose when the money flow from the EU coffers to the UK also stops?

I'm going to miss that brakeman, though.

Somewhere in the region of £100 to £150 million short fall per week for the EU for the UK potentially the same amount will remain as to whether the same research will be funded to the same amount or research will be pointed in other directions remains to be seen. I expect that people drawing hockey stick graphs of the relationship between weather patterns and and the increase in LBGT clubs will get less funding though.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Zero999 on July 01, 2016, 08:29:10 am
In addition if there's no agreement then it's WTO rules.
I wonder if the EU Canada agreement includes free movement of people.  :D
Lol. I can't see that happening. The EU just wants to link free trade with free movement for the UK and any other European state who is thinking about leaving.

The UK government should stop dithering. Activate article 50. Concentrate on negotiating trade deals with the rest of the world, with the the EU being at the bottom of the list. Then when we finally leave, we'll be in a stronger position to negotiate a better deal.

Also, let's no forget Russia. The EU would not like the UK to lift sanctions against Russia, which could be a useful bargaining chip in our negotiations with the EU.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 01, 2016, 08:56:43 am
Also, let's no forget Russia. The EU would not like the UK to lift sanctions against Russia, which could be a useful bargaining chip in our negotiations with the EU.
I am not so sure of that. The sanctions don't appear to be Germany's cup of tea.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Wytnucls on July 01, 2016, 09:44:39 am
In addition if there's no agreement then it's WTO rules.
I wonder if the EU Canada agreement includes free movement of people.  :D
Lol. I can't see that happening. The EU just wants to link free trade with free movement for the UK and any other European state who is thinking about leaving.

The UK government should stop dithering. Activate article 50. Concentrate on negotiating trade deals with the rest of the world, with the the EU being at the bottom of the list. Then when we finally leave, we'll be in a stronger position to negotiate a better deal.

Also, let's no forget Russia. The EU would not like the UK to lift sanctions against Russia, which could be a useful bargaining chip in our negotiations with the EU.
You've got that the wrong way round:

The U.K. is the EU’s most vocal critic of Russia’s 2014 annexation of the Crimean Peninsula and was instrumental in the decision to levy sanctions against the country’s financials, energy and defense sectors two years ago.
Several EU countries, including Austria and Hungary, have expressed interest in lifting, or at least softening, sanctions, as they can no longer afford to miss out on trade with Russia. Countries that have faced difficulty offsetting lost trade opportunities are Finland, Poland and the Baltic states—Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania. The French parliament recently adopted a resolution to urge Brussels to drop all sanctions. Italy’s Upper House of Parliament, meanwhile, approved a resolution opposing any automatic renewal of sanctions.

Britain’s exclusion from any future policy decision-making, then, could help Moscow’s chances to renegotiate terms.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Wytnucls on July 01, 2016, 10:05:02 am
In addition if there's no agreement then it's WTO rules.
I wonder if the EU Canada agreement includes free movement of people.  :D
Lol. I can't see that happening. The EU just wants to link free trade with free movement for the UK and any other European state who is thinking about leaving.

The UK government should stop dithering. Activate article 50. Concentrate on negotiating trade deals with the rest of the world, with the the EU being at the bottom of the list. Then when we finally leave, we'll be in a stronger position to negotiate a better deal.

Also, let's no forget Russia. The EU would not like the UK to lift sanctions against Russia, which could be a useful bargaining chip in our negotiations with the EU.

There is urgency in negotiating a new trade deal with Europe as the breath of regulations to cover is immense, to such an extend that two years may not be enough time to process everything. The two year deadline will likely be pushed back. The EU is also the UK biggest market (50%). There is no point in snubbing your best trade partner.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: kaz911 on July 01, 2016, 10:24:30 am
Here is a couple of EU stories that illustrates the issues Denmark and other high wage EU countries have

By law if a public project is (in Denmark) valued at more than GBP 50.000(ish) (DKK 500.000) it has to go for an EU bid round. So everyone in the EU can bid on it. That might be office supplies or whole building works. By law the Public office HAVE to select the cheapest offer with no regard to quality as long as builders "promise" to follow the specifications.

Well that has meant in recent times that most things in Denmark is built by Eastern European building companies. Mostly Polish but also from other former eastern European origins.

And unfortunately that is like hiring the Mafia to build for you. Despite all kinds of safeguards for material choice, labor rights and so on and so forth - most buildings done have to be partly redone 2-3 times. The builders are often not educated as builders - so huge blunders are made. Materials are "changed" without permission to cheaper or copy or scrap versions. Workers are on paper PAID the official amount - but are then FORCED by their "foremen" to hand anywhere from 25 to 95% of their wages to their bosses in cash. They are very apt at "conning" the system and when to many lights shine on the company - they close it - and start a new one. Their bosses then abuse the Danish befits system by "randomly" laying off staff so they can claim government benefits for a short period - while they still work full time. And the bosses steal the benefits as well.

So the one thing they are great at - is gaming the system to the limits. They plan it fully - have multiple "empty" companies setup and vetted for bidding on EU projects - and when heat under one company gets to much - they just close it and move all staff to the next ready company they have set up - and let the old one collapse - and thereby they do not have to pay for the warranty issues on the buildings they just finished. And the "warranty" fixes for the poor quality quite often exceed the entire price of the whole project!

And it happens not only in building sites. Anything from office cleaning to transport is the same. One recent raid by tax/police discovered a whole house full of Polish cleaners with all paperwork in order on paper - but in reality the "business manager" took each employee down to the cash machine after each payday and emptied the accounts and only gave the staff "pocket money" - which meant the cleaning staff spent all their time they should be cleaning - cleaning out (stealing) from lockers and computers to make money. That was the price the staff had to "pay" to get a job - and then the staff relied on Danish benefits for children, sick pay etc to be paid out in Poland as their "real" salaries while the bosses kept the majority. So in reality the PERFECT way to "whitewash" money and generate huge amounts of cash.

I'm not saying Polish people in general are con artists - but they are abused a lot by "Mafia" bosses from Poland. If you find the right Polish workers they are usually better than Brit's :) and work harder.

But EU rules has made a mockery of how bidding/tenders are done in the public space. But you have to hire Polish people on an individual basis and not through a "Mafia" operated Eastern European company.
 
Poland and the other former Eastern European countries was not ready for EU and EU was not ready for them. 

Sorry if I have offended anyone by the above - but I could continue for hours with examples - many of which the Government and Politicians are trying to keep "hidden" out of fear of backlash from EU.

And I do love Poland btw - I lived in Warsaw for 2 years right after the wall came down - and the first McDonald's opened in Warsaw with 7 km queue - and geeks met at the computer market on Saturday and they sold pirate copies of software and hacked satellite receivers in the open :) and what ever else western they could get their hands on after having been on USSR wait-lists for years just to get a new car or a new fridge. They had plenty of cash (zloty) after not being able to buy things for so many years - so it was Klondike!

:)


Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Zero999 on July 01, 2016, 10:56:45 am
You've got that the wrong way round:

The U.K. is the EU’s most vocal critic of Russia’s 2014 annexation of the Crimean Peninsula and was instrumental in the decision to levy sanctions against the country’s financials, energy and defense sectors two years ago.
Several EU countries, including Austria and Hungary, have expressed interest in lifting, or at least softening, sanctions, as they can no longer afford to miss out on trade with Russia. Countries that have faced difficulty offsetting lost trade opportunities are Finland, Poland and the Baltic states—Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania. The French parliament recently adopted a resolution to urge Brussels to drop all sanctions. Italy’s Upper House of Parliament, meanwhile, approved a resolution opposing any automatic renewal of sanctions.

Britain’s exclusion from any future policy decision-making, then, could help Moscow’s chances to renegotiate terms.
I didn't realise that was the case. I can assure you that whilst that may have been the view of the our government at the time, not everyone in the UK believes sanctions against Russia were a good idea: the harmed the UK economy and didn't change Putin's behaviour. Now we're leaving the EU we should certainly reconsider our relationship with the rest of the work, including some of the less popular countries with the west.

In addition if there's no agreement then it's WTO rules.
I wonder if the EU Canada agreement includes free movement of people.  :D
Lol. I can't see that happening. The EU just wants to link free trade with free movement for the UK and any other European state who is thinking about leaving.

The UK government should stop dithering. Activate article 50. Concentrate on negotiating trade deals with the rest of the world, with the the EU being at the bottom of the list. Then when we finally leave, we'll be in a stronger position to negotiate a better deal.

Also, let's no forget Russia. The EU would not like the UK to lift sanctions against Russia, which could be a useful bargaining chip in our negotiations with the EU.

There is urgency in negotiating a new trade deal with Europe as the breath of regulations to cover is immense, to such an extend that two years may not be enough time to process everything. The two year deadline will likely be pushed back. The EU is also the UK biggest market (50%). There is no point in snubbing your best trade partner.
I'm not saying we should not negotiate with EU, just that now we're leaving, it no longer needs to be our number 1 trading partner.
Before the UK joined, EU we did a lot of trade with Australia, Canada, Singapore, India etc. which was suppressed when we joined and getting this back should be the number 1 priority.

Some claim that it could take a long time to establish trade agreements with other countries, based on how long it's taken for the EU to negotiate with non-European states but the UK has the advantage that such arrangements don't need to be agreed by all EU states.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 01, 2016, 11:05:11 am
Before the UK joined, EU we did a lot of trade with Australia, Canada, Singapore, India etc. which was suppressed when we joined and getting this back should be the number 1 priority.
43 years have passed. That's a lot of water under the bridge.

Some claim that it could take a long time to establish trade agreements with other countries, based on how long it's taken for the EU to negotiate with non-European states but the UK has the advantage that such arrangements don't need to be agreed by all EU states.
I think that is a very valid point. The disadvantage of course being that the UK might get worse arrangements than it would with the full weight of the EU behind it.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on July 01, 2016, 11:06:39 am
In addition if there's no agreement then it's WTO rules.
I wonder if the EU Canada agreement includes free movement of people.  :D
Lol. I can't see that happening. The EU just wants to link free trade with free movement for the UK and any other European state who is thinking about leaving.

A common misunderstanding in the UK.   Like "Cameron should have negotiated harder on immigration".   The point is, like it or not (and you obviously don't),  free movement is a fundamental part of the nature of the EU.   It is not just a business arrangement, it is an attempt to bring the people of Europe together, and to equalise opportunities.   So refusing to sacrifice freedom of movement is not a choice, it is an existential necessity for the EU.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on July 01, 2016, 11:16:20 am
Quote
The EU just wants to link free trade with free movement for the UK

There is plenty of evidence to show that EU is wrong on that. Free movement makes sense when you have a (relatively) homogeneous culture / political system. To me, the push for free movement today is more ideology / political than anything else.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on July 01, 2016, 12:14:07 pm
Quote
The EU just wants to link free trade with free movement for the UK

There is plenty of evidence to show that EU is wrong on that. Free movement makes sense when you have a (relatively) homogeneous culture / political system. To me, the push for free movement today is more ideology / political than anything else.

True, but it is a fundamental part of the ideology, and raison d'être, of the EU, without which it cannot exist.  You are either with us or against us on this.  No compromise is possible.  I fully realise this may mean support for the EU in some European countries is in the minority.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Zero999 on July 01, 2016, 12:16:33 pm
In addition if there's no agreement then it's WTO rules.
I wonder if the EU Canada agreement includes free movement of people.  :D
Lol. I can't see that happening. The EU just wants to link free trade with free movement for the UK and any other European state who is thinking about leaving.

A common misunderstanding in the UK.   Like "Cameron should have negotiated harder on immigration".   The point is, like it or not (and you obviously don't),  free movement is a fundamental part of the nature of the EU.   It is not just a business arrangement, it is an attempt to bring the people of Europe together, and to equalise opportunities.   So refusing to sacrifice freedom of movement is not a choice, it is an existential necessity for the EU.
Well you obviously don't know me. Although I can see the disadvantages of free movement, I ultimately see it as a good thing and personally would like it to continue, even when we leave the EU. However it's clear that one of the main reasons why people voted to leave (I voted to remain) was over concerns over immigration, so our leaders need to negotiate with the EU on free movement.

I have not seen the details of any trade deals with the US and Canada but I highly doubt free movement will be one of the conditions and if it is, then it would explain why they'll ultimately fail. Can you seriously see the US and Canadian governments agreeing to free movement and open boarders with all of the EU member states?

If the EU can establish trade agreements with other states which do not involve free movement, then why can't the EU do the same with the UK? The only reason I can see is because the UK is in Europe and will be a former EU state which will make it politically unpopular with other EU countries but so will not establishing any kind of trade deal.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on July 01, 2016, 01:48:18 pm
In addition if there's no agreement then it's WTO rules.
I wonder if the EU Canada agreement includes free movement of people.  :D
Lol. I can't see that happening. The EU just wants to link free trade with free movement for the UK and any other European state who is thinking about leaving.




A common misunderstanding in the UK.   Like "Cameron should have negotiated harder on immigration".   The point is, like it or not (and you obviously don't),  free movement is a fundamental part of the nature of the EU.   It is not just a business arrangement, it is an attempt to bring the people of Europe together, and to equalise opportunities.   So refusing to sacrifice freedom of movement is not a choice, it is an existential necessity for the EU.
Well you obviously don't know me. Although I can see the disadvantages of free movement, I ultimately see it as a good thing and personally would like it to continue, even when we leave the EU. However it's clear that one of the main reasons why people voted to leave (I voted to remain) was over concerns over immigration, so our leaders need to negotiate with the EU on free movement.

I have not seen the details of any trade deals with the US and Canada but I highly doubt free movement will be one of the conditions and if it is, then it would explain why they'll ultimately fail. Can you seriously see the US and Canadian governments agreeing to free movement and open boarders with all of the EU member states?

If the EU can establish trade agreements with other states which do not involve free movement, then why can't the EU do the same with the UK? The only reason I can see is because the UK is in Europe and will be a former EU state which will make it politically unpopular with other EU countries but so will not establishing any kind of trade deal.


I am sure they will negotiate a trade deal, it just won't be free, customs free and paper free like it is *within* the single market.  It will no doubt favour the particular strong wishes of each side in each sector as befits negotiations between different parties rather than the mutual support of members of the same  community.  None-the-less it will be fair to both parties because neither is of much greater strength.  Which is more than can be said for TTIP.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 01, 2016, 01:57:55 pm
In addition if there's no agreement then it's WTO rules.
I wonder if the EU Canada agreement includes free movement of people.  :D
Lol. I can't see that happening. The EU just wants to link free trade with free movement for the UK and any other European state who is thinking about leaving.

The UK government should stop dithering. Activate article 50. Concentrate on negotiating trade deals with the rest of the world, with the the EU being at the bottom of the list. Then when we finally leave, we'll be in a stronger position to negotiate a better deal.

Also, let's no forget Russia. The EU would not like the UK to lift sanctions against Russia, which could be a useful bargaining chip in our negotiations with the EU.

There is urgency in negotiating a new trade deal with Europe as the breath of regulations to cover is immense, to such an extend that two years may not be enough time to process everything. The two year deadline will likely be pushed back. The EU is also the UK biggest market (50%). There is no point in snubbing your best trade partner.
To put things in perspective: for EU that means about 10% of total trade, which is why the UK will be lower priority than the US and China, etc. That's what Obama meant by "back of the queue": the US will also prioritize the EU since the UK are so small in comparison. The UK may have to try to negotiate other deals first but not because it's advantageous. EU can't give the UK any special treatment, not out of spite but because we can't afford to send the message to other nationalist that blackmailing the EU will be rewarded. So sorry, but the UK will have be treated like any other "third country".
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 01, 2016, 02:20:27 pm
Why is the EU so anxious to get us to invoke article 50? Personally I agree - the sooner the better. But it seems odd to me that the EU don't want to string this one out for as long as possible though. It's a lot of lucre to be giving up.
That is small potatoes compared to the cost of everyone living in uncertainty. It's not just big scale economics, it's thousands of lives that are directly affected. Another example are all the Brits living in Europe, they probably wonder if they will have to move back to Britain now. Applications for Swedish citizenship by British who live here went up by more than 600% after the referendum. The same for eu-migrants living in the UK. Until the British government decide what to do they are living in limbo.

The European Union has never been primarily about money, it's a peace project. That's why free movement is non-negotiable.

From the EU perspective there is no upside to the current situation. The EU leadership probably want to make it clear to everyone they are doing what they can to move things along as quickly and smoothly as possible. And while it's regrettable that the UK citizens voted leave, it would seem undemocratic if the UK government decides to stay now anyway. That would only reduce the democratic legitimacy of EU, at least in Britain, so it's not in EU's interest either.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on July 01, 2016, 02:45:40 pm
You think the UK is a big contributor? Well lets see the figures.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union  EU-28 contributions (2014)
UK contributed  14072 million and got 6984 million back so net 7088 million with a population of 63,2 million people that is 112€ a person you contributed.
Germany 29413 million and got 11485 million back so net 17928 million with a population of 81,8 million people that is 219€ a person Germany contributed, almost double.

And even Holland contributed 8373 million and got 2014 million back so net 6359 million with a population of 17 million people that is 374€ a person we contributed, more than triple.

So in that aspect we pay per person three time more than the oh so mighty british umpire. Go brew some decent beer and you might have a good export product  ;)

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 01, 2016, 02:55:51 pm
I found this earlier: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8036097.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8036097.stm) and it says the UK is 7:th largest net contributor per person. Also shows how large the UK rebate is.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on July 01, 2016, 03:03:24 pm
Well we just have to close the faucet a bit more for those countries that only consume.
Both EU and UK will survive, so lets watch this political soap or Kings drama if you wish in the UK unravel further, the first has already fallen.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on July 01, 2016, 03:28:20 pm
The economics part of the fallout is interesting but not nearly as interesting as the geopolitical part of it.

An EU without the UK is considerably weakened militarily. Merkel had suggested an EU self-sufficient defense by 2025 - 2030. I think that's mostly impossible now.

That means NATO will continue to exist as the defense umbrella for Europe into the foreseeable future.

So a brexit is bad for Russia - quite counter-intuitive.

How a President Trump or a President Clinton handles that would be quite interesting.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on July 01, 2016, 03:40:04 pm
You think the UK is a big contributor? Well lets see the figures.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union  EU-28 contributions (2014)
UK contributed  14072 million and got 6984 million back so net 7088 million with a population of 63,2 million people that is 112€ a person you contributed.
Germany 29413 million and got 11485 million back so net 17928 million with a population of 81,8 million people that is 219€ a person Germany contributed, almost double.

And even Holland contributed 8373 million and got 2014 million back so net 6359 million with a population of 17 million people that is 374€ a person we contributed, more than triple.

So in that aspect we pay per person three time more than the oh so mighty british umpire. Go brew some decent beer and you might have a good export product  ;)

Even down under we know Germany is known as a major financial contributor - but your example 'per person' is irrelevant on the balance sheet.  It doesn't matter if the population of any country is 1,000,000 or 100,000,000, when a country's contribution is withdrawn, the whole amount goes.  So, from your figures, if you take out the UK, the rest of the EU has a net drop of 7088 million on the balance sheet.

That's not a drop in the ocean.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 01, 2016, 03:59:11 pm
The economics part of the fallout is interesting but not nearly as interesting as the geopolitical part of it.

An EU without the UK is considerably weakened militarily. Merkel had suggested an EU self-sufficient defense by 2025 - 2030. I think that's mostly impossible now.

That means NATO will continue to exist as the defense umbrella for Europe into the foreseeable future.

So a brexit is bad for Russia - quite counter-intuitive.

How a President Trump or a President Clinton handles that would be quite interesting.
There aren't any plans for a common EU defence force yet, as far as I know. There's only Nato and the UK is probably not planing on leaving Nato as well. Not that it would make any difference, because there is no real threat to Nato nor EU, even without the US and UK:
(http://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pictures/stock_2013/20130129_sg_report-2012-13.jpg)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on July 01, 2016, 04:08:56 pm
the rest of the EU has a net drop of 7088 million on the balance sheet.
No, a lot of money also flows back from the EU.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on July 01, 2016, 04:16:55 pm
That's not a drop in the ocean.
It gonna be less because now the UK has a lot of EU projects and contracts that are stopping.
Airbus projects and such EU wide contracts are going to be given to the EU countries in the near future or some other deals have to be made ofcourse.
What the biggest problem was is that the UK contributed much less than they normally would have since they had lots of discounts and special treatments, look at the url that apis posted and look at the Percentage of income statistics, the UK is last. And still they were complaining and blocking stuff in Brussels, well that is now over. So yeah it is not the best outcome but I think in the long end it is better for the EU that only countries participate that 100% want to contribute and participate instead of continuously blocking progress.
And I think that a lot of politicians in the UK that blamed the EU the last years for everything that did not went well in the country have to find a new excuse  :popcorn:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 01, 2016, 04:39:35 pm
And I think that a lot of politicians in the UK that blamed the EU the last years for everything that did not went well in the country have to find a new excuse  :popcorn:

The new excuse will be. . . . . .

"It's all because we LEFT the EU (Brexit), NOT our faults at all, even slightly. Now can I have my triple pay rise, thank you (suckers)".
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on July 01, 2016, 04:39:48 pm
Consequence of the Brexit.

"Easyjet is preparing to move from Luton after Brexit"
http://www.elconfidencial.com/mundo/2016-07-01/easyjet-dejara-aeropuerto-luton-aena_1226809/ (http://www.elconfidencial.com/mundo/2016-07-01/easyjet-dejara-aeropuerto-luton-aena_1226809/)

"
The government will try to bring to Spain the banks of London City

Create a working group to promote the candidacy of Spain to host the European institutions that are currently in London"

http://www.larazon.es/economia/el-gobierno-intentara-traer-a-espana-los-bancos-de-la-city-londinense-CH13057621#.Ttt17t3RYVnxIRw (http://www.larazon.es/economia/el-gobierno-intentara-traer-a-espana-los-bancos-de-la-city-londinense-CH13057621#.Ttt17t3RYVnxIRw)

"The Government bid to bring Vodafone Spain

He has started negotiations with the headquarters in London. It is one of the countries with more options to host the headquarters: Its main rival is Germany"

http://www.elconfidencialdigital.com/dinero/Gobierno-puja-traerse-Vodafone-Espana_0_2738126178.html (http://www.elconfidencialdigital.com/dinero/Gobierno-puja-traerse-Vodafone-Espana_0_2738126178.html)

British an advise, with the thing of eating doesn't play.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: chris_leyson on July 01, 2016, 05:07:03 pm
I believe EDF have said they are going to continue with Hinkley Point power station, mind you there are some serious engineering issues to overcome. Siemens have said they are not going to export wind tubines from Hull, which doesn't look good. Not sure what is going to happen with the Swansea tidal barrarge it's been delayed by a year because Tidal Lagoon Power are unsure about the level of government funding, probably bugger all if we leave the EU. Not sure what Airbus are thinking, they might just move wing manufacturing somewhere else, financial institutions talking about move staff.. this list goes on.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: chris_leyson on July 01, 2016, 06:33:06 pm
Quote
I'm going to stop contributing to this thread (if I can help myself).  EEVBlog is a sanctuary from the referendum.
Thanks man, you're right we're better doing the stuff we do best and that is electronics or applications of electronics, teaching newcomers the subject and even history of electronics. Oscilloscope flame wars are a waste of time and bandwidth but shit happens, it's a forum, hmmm.. maybe bandwidth wasn't the right word  :-DD I think we should stick to electronics and it's applications and teach newcomers to the subject. The late Tim Williams and Bob Pease would probably agree  :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Macbeth on July 01, 2016, 09:34:25 pm
The late Tim Williams and Bob Pease would probably agree  :)
This is sacrilege! You can't even blame it on a typo. Thankfully I am an atheist and can forgive, but others would want your head for that blasphemy!  ;)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on July 02, 2016, 07:41:31 pm
Earlier in the thread, I talked about the return of right-leaning political parties in Europe.

as if to accentuate that, here is a piece from the Austrian election: http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/austria-court-rule-rerun-presidential-elections-40271393 (http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/austria-court-rule-rerun-presidential-elections-40271393)

The decision was made on the basis of irregularities, this election and in prior elections as well.

Looks like the USA is the only country where voter fraud is NOT an issue.




:)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Jeroen3 on July 02, 2016, 08:36:48 pm
There is also debate about a possible EU exit referendum in Austria.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: digik on July 03, 2016, 09:12:03 am
To be banned from eu is a privilege, not a bad thing! I wish my country will do the same, but courage is not an italian quality  :(
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Augustus on July 03, 2016, 09:56:20 am
They not got banned from the EU. They've decided to leave  :palm:



Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: GEuser on July 03, 2016, 10:00:19 am
6 days to go (thread deadline) and i got nuthin to type about , but! now i'm here out here was a big vote and it seems there might be a hung parliment whatever that is (i assume it's not literally) and all the news has been about that on the TV , hardly heard a peep on Brexit .
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: digik on July 03, 2016, 10:54:49 am
Quote
They not got banned from the EU. They've decided to leave
I know, but EU didn't make nothing to stop that, and now they put hurry to UK to leave EU as soon as possible.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on July 03, 2016, 11:43:52 am
Applications for Swedish citizenship by British who live here went up by more than 600% after the referendum.

"Sweden’s Migration Agency said 129 Brits filed for citizenship, compared to a weekly average of around 20"

Hardly a stampede...
Probably more for the convenience of having a Euro passport.

The rest of us are morbidly watching Sweden's social experiment in forced diversity with abject horror.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: chris_leyson on July 03, 2016, 12:07:03 pm
This is sacrilege! You can't even blame it on a typo. Thankfully I am an atheist and can forgive, but others would want your head for that blasphemy!  ;) Sorry Macbeth, what I meant was they would probably agree about teaching newcomers to electronics all about the subject and that is what this forum is really good at. I like Daves "take it apart" approach to see what makes things tick. From an analogue point of view I love TheSignalPath as well, Shahriar makes some excellent videos. Hey, maybe it was the oscilloscope flamewars thing that you didn't like about my post, well, it does go on a bit sometimes but yes I agree it's good to teach newcomers the differences and perhaps more importantly the pitfalls of each measurement approach. But as NivagSwerdna said "EEVblog is a sanctuary from the referrendum" :-+ I didn't mean to be disrespectful to late and great Tim Williams and Bob Pease.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on July 03, 2016, 12:19:12 pm
In addition if there's no agreement then it's WTO rules.
I wonder if the EU Canada agreement includes free movement of people.  :D
Lol. I can't see that happening. The EU just wants to link free trade with free movement for the UK and any other European state who is thinking about leaving.

A common misunderstanding in the UK.   Like "Cameron should have negotiated harder on immigration".   The point is, like it or not (and you obviously don't),  free movement is a fundamental part of the nature of the EU.   It is not just a business arrangement, it is an attempt to bring the people of Europe together, and to equalise opportunities.   So refusing to sacrifice freedom of movement is not a choice, it is an existential necessity for the EU.
That's the point !!
When I voted to join what was then the EEC I never voted for Political union.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 03, 2016, 12:29:21 pm
When I voted to join what was then the EEC I never voted for Political union.
1) You didn't vote to join in 1973, you voted on continued membership in 1975.
2) And yes, you voted for political union, you just didn't know it.
3) Neither were the voters in my country told about that when they went to the polling stations in October 1972.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on July 03, 2016, 01:17:49 pm
Applications for Swedish citizenship by British who live here went up by more than 600% after the referendum.

"Sweden’s Migration Agency said 129 Brits filed for citizenship, compared to a weekly average of around 20"

Hardly a stampede...
Probably more for the convenience of having a Euro passport.

The rest of us are morbidly watching Sweden's social experiment in forced diversity with abject horror.

They went out the fire for falling to embers. How many  time will they last on Malmö?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 03, 2016, 01:47:56 pm
Applications for Swedish citizenship by British who live here went up by more than 600% after the referendum.

"Sweden’s Migration Agency said 129 Brits filed for citizenship, compared to a weekly average of around 20"

Hardly a stampede...
Probably more for the convenience of having a Euro passport.
The point is that the UK government should respect the referendum and invoke article 50 quickly. Not doing so is very disrespectful to both the people of the UK who voted to leave, as well as the other EU-member states. We are all living in limbo now, wondering what will happen.

Researchers in UK now don't know if their scientific and medical research projects/collaborations will receive continued funding. I read half of all farmers in the UK are dependent on EU subsidising. The number of Brits filing for citizenship is a significant change for a tiny country like Sweden. It proves that British people living in Europe are now living in uncertainty: are they going to be able to keep their jobs or will they have to move back to the UK? The same is true for Europeans living in Britain.

So the UK government should hurry up and leave if that is what they intend to do, not keep everyone in the dark, it's not good for anyone. The sooner that uncertainty can be dispelled the better.

If the UK wants to pick up the ball and leave they should do so, not just stand around and glare.

The rest of us are morbidly watching Sweden's social experiment in forced diversity with abject horror.
Not sure what you mean by that but perhaps you are referring to Sweden helping many refugees from the middle east who are fleeing to Europe because of the illegal war the UK and the US started there? Thanks a lot. The problem is that some other EU-countries are not taking their share of refugees (like the UK). Only a handful countries that are helping sadly.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 03, 2016, 02:07:50 pm
When I voted to join what was then the EEC I never voted for Political union.
1) You didn't vote to join in 1973, you voted on continued membership in 1975.
2) And yes, you voted for political union, you just didn't know it.
3) Neither were the voters in my country told about that when they went to the polling stations in October 1972.
The UK wanted to join the EEC already in 1961 but were not allowed to because the French (Charles de Gaulle) felt they were too un-european and would only cause trouble. The UK weren't allowed to join until 1973. Now they want to leave, and who knows, in 10-20 years maybe they will join again. The next time there won't be any rebate or special treatment though.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on July 03, 2016, 02:15:35 pm
Still I wonder whether anyone can argue leaving the EU is somehow good for the economy of the UK? I don't see it. Companies have already started packing their stuff en masse which means loss of jobs. Ofcourse you can go on ranting about souvereinity, voting for your own politicians, etc but that doesn't put food on the table.

I asked before to name one thing the UK is good at. So far the only significant item on the list seems that London is Europe's financial centre. Isn't that alone something worth keeping? Several cities are already angling to become Europe's new financial centre.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on July 03, 2016, 02:24:02 pm
Quote
Quote from: bitslice on Yesterday at 09:43:52 PM
Not sure what you mean by that but perhaps you are referring to Sweden helping many refugees from the middle east who are fleeing to Europe because of the illegal war the UK and the US started there? Thanks a lot. The problem is that some other EU-countries are not taking their share of refugees (like the UK). Only a handful countries that are helping sadly.

I believe that he refers to that: The  hell multicultural of Malmö(I)

http://www.alertadigital.com/2012/09/02/el-infierno-multicultural-de-malmo-i/ (http://www.alertadigital.com/2012/09/02/el-infierno-multicultural-de-malmo-i/)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 03, 2016, 02:32:28 pm
Ofcourse you can go on ranting about souvereinity, voting for your own politicians, etc but that doesn't put food on the table.

It's a values and cultural different so may be difficult to understand. Some nations value independence over short term economic gain.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on July 03, 2016, 02:37:52 pm
So the UK government should hurry up and leave if that is what they intend to do, not keep everyone in the dark, it's not good for anyone. The sooner that uncertainty can be dispelled the better.
It's not a trivial task to work on, meanwhile we are hindered by an abdicating Prime minister and a weak student Marxist pretending to lead an opposition party.

Not helped by Junckers throwing all his toys out of his pram and making veiled threats and pulling faces. Anyone would think this was his personal empire...

Not sure what you mean by that but perhaps you are referring to Sweden helping many refugees from the middle east who are fleeing to Europe because of the illegal war the UK and the US started there? Thanks a lot. The problem is that some other EU-countries are not taking their share of refugees (like the UK). Only a handful countries that are helping sadly.
We were already doing more than the rest of Europe by funding refugee camps in Lebanon and Jordan, which is the only sensible way of dealing with a temporary displacement of people during war. It is really cost efficient and safe, and when the war finishes they can all go home without disrupting anyone else and we'll help fund their rebuilding. Everyone wins.

The insane solution  :scared: is to suggest they swim across the Mediterranean and perhaps drown, then walk right across Europe, only to end up in some squalid ghetto in Sweden or Germany where they'll probably get raped by some other follower of the religion of peace, and create massive social friction for the resident population for decades to come.  :palm:

The predictable consequence of Sweden's and Germany's naive actions in this situation has directly led to Brexit.
So thanks for that.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Macbeth on July 03, 2016, 06:28:02 pm
I didn't mean to be disrespectful to late and great Tim Williams and Bob Pease.
Argh! You did it again! Repent you blasphemous heathen!  Gentleman Jim was no tiny Tim :-DD  ;)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Macbeth on July 03, 2016, 06:55:16 pm
The "free trade" deal between Canada, the U.S and Mexico doesn't even have a provision for the free movement of people so I doubt ours with the EU will. Mind you with the dipshit Priminister we have now anything is possible.
Theresa May is likely to be the next conservative PM and she is a Remain. Cameron is stepping down because it would be untenable for a Remain to oversee the brexit. Perhaps the tory MPs will come to their senses and vote Andrea Leadsom for the job.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on July 03, 2016, 07:07:30 pm
Still I wonder whether anyone can argue leaving the EU is somehow good for the economy of the UK? I don't see it. Companies have already started packing their stuff en masse which means loss of jobs. Ofcourse you can go on ranting about souvereinity, voting for your own politicians, etc but that doesn't put food on the table.

I asked before to name one thing the UK is good at. So far the only significant item on the list seems that London is Europe's financial centre. Isn't that alone something worth keeping? Several cities are already angling to become Europe's new financial centre.

I already gave you a few things in a previous posting.
Selective blindness ?

Lets see who wins out on being THE financial centre of europe.

 |O
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on July 03, 2016, 07:17:49 pm
Still I wonder whether anyone can argue leaving the EU is somehow good for the economy of the UK? I don't see it. Companies have already started packing their stuff en masse which means loss of jobs. Ofcourse you can go on ranting about souvereinity, voting for your own politicians, etc but that doesn't put food on the table.

I asked before to name one thing the UK is good at. So far the only significant item on the list seems that London is Europe's financial centre. Isn't that alone something worth keeping? Several cities are already angling to become Europe's new financial centre.

I already gave you a few things in a previous posting.
Selective blindness ?
As a matter of fact yes. My rant filter gets enabled automatically when I see your avatar so please post the list again. I looked through your posting history but couldn't find the posting you referred to quickly.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on July 03, 2016, 07:43:36 pm
 :-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on July 03, 2016, 08:16:06 pm


Quote
Theresa May is likely to be the next conservative PM and she is a Remain. Cameron is stepping down because it would be untenable for a Remain to oversee the brexit. Perhaps the tory MPs will come to their senses and vote Andrea Leadsom for the job.

I have a new news :  Theresa May leaves open the future of EU immigrants

                                   Might they stay forever? "Asked a reporter." Well, nobody necessarily stay in one place forever, "said May

http://www.elmundo.es/internacional/2016/07/03/57793637ca4741582b8b45f3.html (http://www.elmundo.es/internacional/2016/07/03/57793637ca4741582b8b45f3.html)

On resume,If she is a pro-European turn off and let's go.


Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 03, 2016, 08:32:56 pm
I don't think it's fair to just kick people out. We need to look to changing future rules. Freedom of movement is one thing, your country being one of the top 3 or 4 out of 28 is another. Te EU is supposed to made up of countries of equal standing, if it is why is it so many aspire to move ?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 03, 2016, 08:36:22 pm
Quote
They not got banned from the EU. They've decided to leave
I know, but EU didn't make nothing to stop that, and now they put hurry to UK to leave EU as soon as possible.

that is understandable. We have decided to leave, that has consequences and causes uncertainty. Instead of getting on with it and doing what we said we wanted to do we are having civil wars in both major political parties like a bunch of school children. We are making idiots of ourselves.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: donotdespisethesnake on July 03, 2016, 09:05:08 pm
I don't think it's fair to just kick people out. We need to look to changing future rules. Freedom of movement is one thing, your country being one of the top 3 or 4 out of 28 is another. Te EU is supposed to made up of countries of equal standing, if it is why is it so many aspire to move ?

I had been wondering about the EU's insistence on freedom of movement, but basically it's a socialist idea to reduce inequality. If a few rich countries export their goods to others, they gain wealth at the expense of the poorer ones. Allowing people from the poorer countries to migrate to the richer ones allows some money to flow back.

Unfortunately I think, corporations are much better at playing the rules to their advantage. So they base themselves in the country with best tax advantages, then import workers from the cheapest countries. That works out fine for London, but there are parts of the UK that have been really fscked since the 1980's, and are seeing no benefit from the EU or "global capitalism".

The EU may have some noble aims (depending on your view of socialism), but they basically hand over the reins to capitalists who make a tidy profit and ultimately increase inequality, and there is also a good deal of money to line the pockets of corrupt politicians.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: IanB on July 03, 2016, 09:48:07 pm
that is understandable. We have decided to leave, that has consequences and causes uncertainty. Instead of getting on with it and doing what we said we wanted to do we are having civil wars in both major political parties like a bunch of school children. We are making idiots of ourselves.

But we have not "decided to leave". The vote was split down the middle, and a 2% margin either way is probably not statistically significant. For that we can blame the people who set up the referendum, who should have insisted on at least 50% of eligible voters, or a 60% majority, or some such.

But given that the mess has been created, I think it is fair to take time to figure out how to resolve it in the best way possible. Rushing from one crisis to another rarely leads to a good outcome.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on July 03, 2016, 09:54:09 pm
When I voted to join what was then the EEC I never voted for Political union.
1) You didn't vote to join in 1973, you voted on continued membership in 1975.
2) And yes, you voted for political union, you just didn't know it.
3) Neither were the voters in my country told about that when they went to the polling stations in October 1972.

There is no law saying that you are only allowed to know what politicians tell you.   I knew what the EEC was in 1975, although I couldn't vote for it as I wished as I was only 17 at the time.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 03, 2016, 10:23:39 pm
So the UK government should hurry up and leave if that is what they intend to do, not keep everyone in the dark, it's not good for anyone. The sooner that uncertainty can be dispelled the better.
It's not a trivial task to work on, meanwhile we are hindered by an abdicating Prime minister and a weak student Marxist pretending to lead an opposition party.
Not trivial at all, but surely they must have had some plan what to do in case of a majority for leave? It looks like even the leave campaigners have no clue what to do next. These are the people you are so keen on have complete sovereignty over you. :scared:

Not sure what you mean by that but perhaps you are referring to Sweden helping many refugees from the middle east who are fleeing to Europe because of the illegal war the UK and the US started there? Thanks a lot. The problem is that some other EU-countries are not taking their share of refugees (like the UK). Only a handful countries that are helping sadly.
We were already doing more than the rest of Europe by funding refugee camps in Lebanon and Jordan, which is the only sensible way of dealing with a temporary displacement of people during war. It is really cost efficient and safe, and when the war finishes they can all go home without disrupting anyone else and we'll help fund their rebuilding. Everyone wins.
That's great, but:
There are almost 1 M Syrian refugees in Lebanon, 0.6 M in Jordan, 2.7 M in Turkey. There are 1 M syrian refugees in all of the EU, same as Lebanon. Lebanon has a population of about 4 M, EU has a population of 508 M! The 1 M Syrians are 0.2 % of the total EU population, it would be so easy for EU to accommodate all of them if they were distributed evenly, but since most of the refugees only go to Hungary, Austria, Germany and Sweden it creates a big problem for these countries. No country can legally deny them asylum since they have a valid reson now that the UK have bombed the middle east into anarchy and their former homes are war zones.

The insane solution  :scared: is to suggest they swim across the Mediterranean and perhaps drown, then walk right across Europe, only to end up in some squalid ghetto in Sweden or Germany where they'll probably get raped by some other follower of the religion of peace, and create massive social friction for the resident population for decades to come.  :palm:
No one suggest they should risk their lives on the mediteranean, quite the contrary, but some do anyway and those who do need help to find a new safe home. I'm certain they feel much safer here than being hunted by the barbaric islamists that are pillaging their home countries (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-36699562).

What is insane and unfair is that only a couple of countries receive all the asylum seekers who come into EU. And if anything the UK should take a bigger responsibility than anyone else since the UK helped cause this mess.

You can see some graphs here how unequal the distribution between countries are:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34131911 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34131911)

The predictable consequence of Sweden's and Germany's naive actions in this situation has directly led to Brexit.
So thanks for that.
Leaving EU won't really help since refugees will find their way to the UK anyway and you are legally obligated to grant them asylum, same as anyone else, by the 1951 Refugee Convention. It has nothing to do with the EU.

If you need someone to blame you have a Tony Blair at home and his buddy in the US, George Bush II.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 03, 2016, 10:47:30 pm
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/uk-forum-members-brexit/?action=dlattach;attach=237650;image)

Notice the guy facepalming after Nigel Farage says no one in the EU parliament have had a real job?

It's apparently Vytenis Andriukaitis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vytenis_Andriukaitis) from Lithuania, he's the European commissioner for healt and food safety.

He was born in the Gulag (his parents was deported to Siberia by Stalin). He later became a member of the underground Social Democrat movement for an independent Lithuania. He also happens to be a heart surgeon who among other things helped performed the first heart transplantation in Lithuania.

I would love to know what kind of qualifications Nigel Farage (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigel_Farage) have.  |O  :palm: :palm: :palm:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/29/eu-health-commissioner-explains-farage-facepalm-vytenis-andriukaitis (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/29/eu-health-commissioner-explains-farage-facepalm-vytenis-andriukaitis)
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/29/nigel-farage-made-me-facepalm-hide-despair (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/29/nigel-farage-made-me-facepalm-hide-despair)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Macbeth on July 04, 2016, 12:07:52 am
But we have not "decided to leave". The vote was split down the middle, and a 2% margin either way is probably not statistically significant. For that we can blame the people who set up the referendum, who should have insisted on at least 50% of eligible voters, or a 60% majority, or some such.
I would not be happy with that. I believe in democracy, even if I conceed your proposal would have given Leave a ridiculously massive unfair advantage. I mean you are saying that we should have only allowed a 60% majority vote for Remain and only 40% for Leave? it's only fair? Either way Leave won. As for voters for once far more than 50% of the population voted (72% did) unlike in the general election.

Finally that '2%' is actually a 4 point lead which in percent terms of Remain voters is an >8% lead. Or do you not know how percentages work? Get your calculator and try 48 x 1.08

Now can all you Remain whiners stop being utterly undemocratic and get on with the job...  >:D
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Macbeth on July 04, 2016, 12:38:49 am
Notice the guy facepalming after Nigel Farage says no one in the EU parliament have had a real job?
I know English is not your main language, being Swedish I imagine you are more fluent in Farsi or Arabic or something. But Farage never said no one in EU parliament ever had a real job, he said most of them. I'm sure he isn't at all wrong. Of course he could also say the same thing about our UK parliament too.

I also find it depressing that somebody who (assisted in some way) Heart Transplant surgery abandons his vocation to become a gravy train MEP. I mean really? I'm glad he's no longer a medic.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on July 04, 2016, 12:50:59 am
Quote
But we have not "decided to leave". The vote was split down the middle, and a 2% margin either way is probably not statistically significant.

So democracy means democracy only if it is "statistically significant"? So status quo should persist until and unless the voters present a "statistically significant" choice? Where is that documented in your constition or law or that's just something you dreamed up when the outcome isn't to your liking?

Quote
For that we can blame the people who set up the referendum, who should have insisted on at least 50% of eligible voters, or a 60% majority, or some such.

Or maybe you can just blame insufficient voters in agreement with you?

For a people with hundreds of years of democracy and "enlightenment", attempting to refute voters who refuted your ideas sounds quite barbaric if you ask me.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 04, 2016, 12:59:50 am


But we have not "decided to leave". The vote was split down the middle, and a 2% margin either way is probably not statistically significant.

Statistics significance is when you predict from a sub sample of the voters. Here you have 100% of the people that voted so it can't be more significant that that.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 04, 2016, 05:02:54 am
Notice the guy facepalming after Nigel Farage says no one in the EU parliament have had a real job?
I know English is not your main language, being Swedish I imagine you are more fluent in Farsi or Arabic or something. But Farage never said no one in EU parliament ever had a real job, he said most of them. I'm sure he isn't at all wrong. Of course he could also say the same thing about our UK parliament too.
Farage Said: "I know that virtually none of you have ever done a proper job in your lives, or worked in business or worked in trade or indeed ever created a job."
Which is demonstrably untrue, as outlined here as well:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/28/is-nigel-farage-right-meps-have-not-done-proper-jobs (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/28/is-nigel-farage-right-meps-have-not-done-proper-jobs)

I also find it depressing that somebody who (assisted in some way) Heart Transplant surgery abandons his vocation to become a gravy train MEP. I mean really? I'm glad he's no longer a medic.
You would prefer a career politician like Farage as commissioner for health and food safety? :scared:  :palm:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on July 04, 2016, 06:15:19 am
that is understandable. We have decided to leave, that has consequences and causes uncertainty. Instead of getting on with it and doing what we said we wanted to do we are having civil wars in both major political parties like a bunch of school children. We are making idiots of ourselves.

But we have not "decided to leave". The vote was split down the middle, and a 2% margin either way is probably not statistically significant. For that we can blame the people who set up the referendum, who should have insisted on at least 50% of eligible voters, or a 60% majority, or some such.

But given that the mess has been created, I think it is fair to take time to figure out how to resolve it in the best way possible. Rushing from one crisis to another rarely leads to a good outcome.

The FACT is that more people voted to leave than voted for the current UK Gov !!
 |O
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 04, 2016, 06:18:05 am
Really! They were fighting before NATO put a plane in the air or a boot on the ground. When it was kuwait the left media and kuwatis and other sympathetic middle eastern countries were screaming for NATO to help so we did. Then Libya the same thing now all this ISIS crap again pleas for help. You realize these people are asking for help in their war? You do know what a war is people get killed cities ruined and such? Just in case you missed the point they were fighting already before NATO did anything. Perhaps if things get bad enough for them maybe they will think twice about conflict in the future.
You seem to be missing a lot of information about this.

There have not been more fighting in the middle east than anywhere else before about WW1 when oil became important and the superpowers began fighting over it. WW1 also led to the collapse of the ottoman empire. The middle east is the cradle of civilization with some highly evolved ancient civilizations in the region of the fertile crescent. The first know cities are from that area. During the middle ages the muslims managed to save many books from classical antiquity (mathematicians, philosophy, etc) that the fundamentalist Christians were burning in Europe (heathen books). Anyway, if not for the oil there wouldn't be so much conflict in the middle east today. I'm sure I don't have to point out all the wars started by "the west" in modern times, i mean WW1 and WW2 are just the beginning.

The 2003 Iraq war was based on a blatant lie and was never sanctioned by the UN. Only a handfull Nato countries were ever directly involved. Many western countries and Nato countries opposed it.

What caused the current hell in the middle east is mainly the Iraq war. The Iraq war destabilized the entire region and allowed fundamentalists to try to grab power after the Iraqi government (Saddam) and infrastructure were gone and the US pulled out. ISIS was created and is being led by former Iraqi intelligence officers with the purpose to retake control of Iraq, assisted by islamists, that's why they have been so effective (they are not just your everyday fanatics). That's why the west feel obligated to help in Libya and now against ISIS.

But this has nothing to do with BREXIT, so will just go completely off topic if continued, so this will be my last comment on this subject.

Quote
In reality its a bunch of thugs preying on uneducated easily manipulated fools.
Sounds familiar.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on July 04, 2016, 07:11:42 am


But we have not "decided to leave". The vote was split down the middle, and a 2% margin either way is probably not statistically significant.

Statistics significance is when you predict from a sub sample of the voters. Here you have 100% of the people that voted so it can't be more significant that that.
Well, those who voted represent a sub-sample of the electorate so it would be possible to calculate an error figure in the vote using statistical means. I can't be bothered (because I'd have to get my stats textbooks out and spend time figuring how to do it) but I suspect it will be less than the margin by which the vote was won.

In terms of whether a simple majority of the voters was enough, well that's how we set it up but actually 50 % is an unusually low bar for pushing through legislative change - where referendums are more common it is not unusual to need a 2/3rds majority to enact new legislation.

The trouble is that it is easy to have 20-20 hindsight.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 04, 2016, 07:14:18 am
Finally that '2%' is actually a 4 point lead which in percent terms of Remain voters is an >8% lead. Or do you not know how percentages work? Get your calculator and try 48 x 1.08
Presumably people here do now percentages, at least if they think about them for a few seconds :-)

If your politicians are anything like ours, ignorance of percentages is common among them. Fun story: A Danish MP once said, while speaking in parliament, "39 percent of the male population of Denmark never go to the library and the same is true for 30 percent of the women. This means 69 percent of the people never go to the library."   :-DD

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 04, 2016, 07:24:45 am
Well, those who voted represent a sub-sample of the electorate so it would be possible to calculate an error figure in the vote using statistical means. I can't be bothered (because I'd have to get my stats textbooks out and spend time figuring how to do it) but I suspect it will be less than the margin by which the vote was won.
It would be no good anyway because the ones who voted don't represent a random sample.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: EEVblog on July 04, 2016, 08:03:38 am
I bet 20 bucks the Brexit won't actually happen  ;D
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on July 04, 2016, 08:42:21 am
I bet 20 bucks the Brexit won't actually happen  ;D
It's going to be something of a political tightrope.

If not implemented then you can bet Farage will be campaigning the next General Election shouting loudly about how little the "elite" can be trusted - but this time he has about 37% of the electorate who will have very fresh memories of having "voted for something" which then did not happen.

Similarly if we end up having to pay for access to the single market and/or accept free movement.

At the moment I think a Canadian style deal but including financial services is the best option - but whether we can get even that without accepting some free movement is dubious at present.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Zero999 on July 04, 2016, 08:50:28 am
What the biggest problem was is that the UK contributed much less than they normally would have since they had lots of discounts and special treatments, look at the url that apis posted and look at the Percentage of income statistics, the UK is last. And still they were complaining and blocking stuff in Brussels, well that is now over. So yeah it is not the best outcome but I think in the long end it is better for the EU that only countries participate that 100% want to contribute and participate instead of continuously blocking progress.
And I think that a lot of politicians in the UK that blamed the EU the last years for everything that did not went well in the country have to find a new excuse  :popcorn:
Although I personally believe the UK should remain part of the EU. The people who originally voted for it didn't want progress towards ever closer union. They wanted the ECC to remain as it was. No one knew the EU would expand into Russian territory. I believe if those who voted for this back in 1975 knew about any of this, we would have left back then. Many people in the UK don't see themselves as European because it's an island and many wars have been fought in the past against invaders from Europe.

Personally I think the UK has received a good deal from the EU. I can understand why some Europeans are unhappy with the UK because we don't want the same things, which is a lot of what the opt outs and special treatment are about.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kalvin on July 04, 2016, 08:50:46 am
The Brexit turnout was 72% which means that 28% didn't vote for a reason or another. Leave won with 52% while Remain lost with 48%, which means that 37% of all Britons wanted to Leave, 35% wanted to remain and 28% didn't state their opinions. We can of course speculate why the remaining 28% didn't vote: Either they didn't care, the status quo is just fine, or due to some other reason. Nevertheless, the Leave votes doesn't represent the majority of the Britons (only 37%), although the Leave votes represent the majority of the voters.

It is also now quite obvious that the Leave camp didn't expect to win - it was like an accidental fart in a crowded elevator - a mishap which wasn't suppose to happen, everyone heard it, everyone smells it and everyone wants to get out as fast as possible. Cameron has already left as soon as the fart was released, Johnson left on the very next floor. There is still crowd in the elevator and nobody really wants to do anything but hope that the smell will go away.

Edit: Corrected typos.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: G7PSK on July 04, 2016, 08:58:01 am
Well that is what happens with a first past the post system, sometimes the win is just by a nose but it is still a win. If you alter the system you are then giving a deliberate political bias to it so a first past the post is the fairest in what is always going to be an imperfect system.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Alex Nikitin on July 04, 2016, 09:20:19 am
Well that is what happens with a first past the post system, sometimes the win is just by a nose but it is still a win. If you alter the system you are then giving a deliberate political bias to it so a first past the post is the fairest in what is always going to be an imperfect system.

Exactly. And if the result of the referendum is not implemented, than essentially we lose the very foundation of a democratic society. Which means in turn that the other values of that society is under threat and can be thrown out just as easily. That is the main problem of the EU - trading freedom, democracy and national identity for apparent (but ultimately false) comforts of a "good for all" socialism. In my personal opinion this referendum result is the best thing that could happen to the UK and Europe, the common sense of the UK people is coming to rescue our democracy.

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on July 04, 2016, 09:26:25 am
Let me ask one simple question:

Did at any point in time was it stated that a simple majority of those who voted would result in an immutable obligation upon the UK government to exit the EU?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vk6zgo on July 04, 2016, 09:33:14 am
Back in the 1960s Singapore left the Malaysian Federation.

That was a lot more traumatic than Brexit---a whole State was  "exiting" a country.
There were predictions of doom all around,but now,50 years on,both Singapore & Malaysia are doing quite well.

The UK is only leaving an Economic Bloc,so they should do OK.
I think the Poms thought back in the '70s that they were signing up to something like the ASEAN of today,but the EU seems determined to be more like COMECON.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 04, 2016, 10:18:19 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUKjTPPcOdQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUKjTPPcOdQ)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Alex Nikitin on July 04, 2016, 10:29:50 am
Let me ask one simple question:

Did at any point in time was it stated that a simple majority of those who voted would result in an immutable obligation upon the UK government to exit the EU?

Yes.

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Zero999 on July 04, 2016, 10:32:25 am
Still I wonder whether anyone can argue leaving the EU is somehow good for the economy of the UK?
The arguments I've heard mostly centre around: declining trade with the EU, the EU suppressing trade with other countries and increasing bureaucracy.

I'm not saying we should not negotiate with EU, just that now we're leaving, it no longer needs to be our number 1 trading partner.
Before the UK joined, EU we did a lot of trade with Australia, Canada, Singapore, India etc. which was suppressed when we joined and getting this back should be the number 1 priority.

Some claim that it could take a long time to establish trade agreements with other countries, based on how long it's taken for the EU to negotiate with non-European states but the UK has the advantage that such arrangements don't need to be agreed by all EU states.

I saw a graph recently where Australia's trade with the UK was about 12% of our GDP in 1948 and fell away to 3-4% in the early 1960's and flatlined around 0-1% since 1980. We're firmly turned toward Asia now. I doubt there will be a major turnaround now. Compared to Europe, Australia is a small market and far away. The UK is in Europe and will always find most of its trade partners in Europe.

How long before Greece decides it can't hope for any growth whilst it has a currency it can't devalue to improve competitiveness? It isn't a matter of what will bind Europe together it is what will stop it fracturing apart?  Self interest will dictate the answer to that. That's why the UK voted to leave. That is why countries joined the EU and the Eurozone.  The pursuit of self interest has not changed. The current structure of the EU and Eurozone is not equally in all members self interest.  Greece and Germany do not compete equally efficiently or have remotely similar economies and therefore a common currency does not serve both equally. That's a problem.
Do you have any exact figures?

Could the decrease in percentage of trade in the 50s and 60s between Australia and the UK be due to growth in other areas?

Trade would have certainly decreased in the 70s and 80s when the UK joined the EU.

I agree that  Australia will trade more with Asia because of its geographic location but it's just one country we could trade more with. There are plenty of others.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 04, 2016, 10:43:29 am
I agree that  Australia will trade more with Asia because of its geographic location but it's just one country we could trade more with. There are plenty of others.
Plenty? With enough money?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on July 04, 2016, 10:52:27 am
Well that is what happens with a first past the post system, sometimes the win is just by a nose but it is still a win. If you alter the system you are then giving a deliberate political bias to it so a first past the post is the fairest in what is always going to be an imperfect system.
It is no less fair or democratic to require a 2/3rds majority - precisely to avoid the "it was too close to 50/50" issues.

However, it would be wrong to retrospectively change the rules for the 23 June referendum.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Zero999 on July 04, 2016, 11:03:02 am
I agree that  Australia will trade more with Asia because of its geographic location but it's just one country we could trade more with. There are plenty of others.
Plenty? With enough money?
Singapore, UAE, Canada, USA, New Zealand etc. but whether it's possible to adequately compensate for the decline in trade with the EU after brexit remains to be seen.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on July 04, 2016, 11:07:39 am
When it comes to a referendum I think the bar should be set higher. Because a refendum is about a single issue politicians will ultimately play the fear card (FUD) to attract voters. So if a referendum has a low turn up or is a close 50/50 call it can be said that the people don't care or are divided on the matter.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on July 04, 2016, 11:20:50 am
youtube removed
You ever wonder how many people in the UK still speak english with a stiff upper lip like he does, and how much power this small group still has in the UK? And if that is a good thing?
And then he talks about democracy, ever wondered who puts the names on the voting list where the people can vote on? What if you want to vote for someone not on the list? Is that democracy?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 04, 2016, 11:52:49 am
youtube removed
You ever wonder how many people in the UK still speak english with a stiff upper lip like he does, and how much power this small group still has in the UK? And if that is a good thing?
And then he talks about democracy, ever wondered who puts the names on the voting list where the people can vote on? What if you want to vote for someone not on the list? Is that democracy?

Yes Jacob Rees Mogg is very posh. I didn't realise I should discount everything he says because of that though. Thanks for the heads up! I'll be sure to check people's accent and background before I decide whether I can agree or disagree with them in future.

Incidentally I've never voted for him because he's not my MP. But I believe the lists of candidates are decided on by the individual political parties, unless someone stands as an independent.

Independents are heavily biased against in EU parliamentary elections.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: woodchips on July 04, 2016, 11:58:16 am
The snag with requiring more than a certain percentage is that one question is the status quo, the other change, they are neither equal or similar. So a straight majority is the only fair way.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on July 04, 2016, 12:08:47 pm
I didn't realise I should discount everything he says because of that though.
I didn't say that, I was just wondering if this is a minority that has the power and wants to keep the power and that might be the reason for his opinion. If that is a good thing or not, i don't care. Just interested in someones agenda and then listen to him with that agenda in mind  ;)

Quote
But I believe the lists of candidates are decided on by the individual political parties, unless someone stands as an independent.
So how is this different from the EU where the members are (s)elected inside the parties ?
All I am saying is that by his own definition of lack of democracy he is part of the same practice. If you want to run tomorrow you are not getting on the list.
Most people do not realize how little democratic their democracy really is. BTW the same here in Holland, same crappy system.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on July 04, 2016, 12:11:49 pm
The snag with requiring more than a certain percentage is that one question is the status quo, the other change, they are neither equal or similar. So a straight majority is the only fair way.
Surely the opposite is equally valid - that to move away from the status quo should require more than a simple majority.

Ultimately it depends on the circumstances, especially on whether the status quo is beneficial, neutral or harmful, and that itself might be nuanced or contested.

In all it shows that holding referendums is quite a poor way to govern.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 04, 2016, 12:14:51 pm
The snag with requiring more than a certain percentage is that one question is the status quo, the other change, they are neither equal or similar. So a straight majority is the only fair way.
In my country, if parliament decides to change the constitution, the parliament will first have to pass the change, then an election must be held, then the new parliament will have to pass it and then a referendum must be held in which a majority for the change consisting of at least 40% of the electorate is required before it will pass. Not 40% of those who bothered to go to the polling station but 40% of everybody with the right to vote. I happen to think that is a reasonable system.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Alex Nikitin on July 04, 2016, 12:25:32 pm
The snag with requiring more than a certain percentage is that one question is the status quo, the other change, they are neither equal or similar. So a straight majority is the only fair way.
Surely the opposite is equally valid - that to move away from the status quo should require more than a simple majority.

Why? The first referendum on that issue in 1975 (though it was only about joining the EEC, not the "superstate" EU) was decided by a simple majority, so it is only fair to do it in the same way.

Ultimately it depends on the circumstances, especially on whether the status quo is beneficial, neutral or harmful, and that itself might be nuanced or contested.

In all it shows that holding referendums is quite a poor way to govern.

And who would decide which way is "beneficial" ?  :palm: .

Cheers

Alex

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on July 04, 2016, 12:31:12 pm
Quote
I happen to think that is a reasonable system.

That's nice and dandy but irrelevant here: the rule in place at time of the referrendum didn't call for a super majority, or a majority of any arbitrary kind. The "remain" camp lost. If they were really as smart as they claim to be, they probably should have set up a new rule BEFORE the votes.

They were not smart enough to have that foresight, so time to move on. It is just downright silly trying to justify their loss on "unfair", simple majority rules.

Would they complain about the rules equally loudly had they won? Don't think so.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 04, 2016, 12:49:18 pm
That's nice and dandy but irrelevant here: the rule in place at time of the referrendum didn't call for a super majority
It was relevant insofar as it was a comment about the claim that simple majorities are the most fair way of conducting a vote and the therefore by implication the only right way to do it.

Other than that, I agree.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 04, 2016, 12:53:01 pm
The first referendum on that issue in 1975 (though it was only about joining the EEC, not the "superstate" EU)
The 1975 referendum wasn't about joining. You joined on the 1st of January 1973. So the 1975 referendum was actually like the 2016 one. Remain or leave, stay or go  :box:)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on July 04, 2016, 12:55:19 pm
The snag with requiring more than a certain percentage is that one question is the status quo, the other change, they are neither equal or similar. So a straight majority is the only fair way.
Surely the opposite is equally valid - that to move away from the status quo should require more than a simple majority.

Why? The first referendum on that issue in 1975 (though it was only about joining the EEC, not the "superstate" EU) was decided by a simple majority, so it is only fair to do it in the same way.

The same argument applies as to whether a simple majority is sufficient in a plebiscite. Just because we set the bar at 50% in 1975 does not mean that it was the correct thing to then much less now.

However it probably was more reasonable at the time given that we had only been members for three years, so the "status quo" was far less established.

Quote
Ultimately it depends on the circumstances, especially on whether the status quo is beneficial, neutral or harmful, and that itself might be nuanced or contested.

In all it shows that holding referendums is quite a poor way to govern.

And who would decide which way is "beneficial" ?  :palm: .
That was precisely my point when I said that might well be nuanced or contested and demonstrates why policy making based on the result of a popular vote might not be all that good an idea. Yes, I can see that you could respond to that with "well the only thing to do is set the bar at 50%" but I don't particularly agree that it is a good solution - at least not 50% of the vote cast. 50% of the electorate I would be happy enough to support.

Whatever you think about the vote it cannot be argued that it has not had a profound impact on UK and EU politics. Whether that will be a good thing in the long run remains to be seen.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kalvin on July 04, 2016, 01:04:34 pm
Would they complain about the rules equally loudly had they won? Don't think so.

Of course there would be a similar discussion going on, if someone would have decided so.

One thing really bothers me is that there were clearly some major-class false claims and promises in the pro-Brexit campaign which could have had a profound effect on the result.

In a similar manner, don't you think that you should have a right to complain and ask for a refund if a seller sells you fake components, non-existing items, a broken measurement instrument as a working instrument, a bicycle as a sports car etc.? Or, do you just think "Oh dear, I just got screwed big time and now I just have to go on with my life?"
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on July 04, 2016, 01:14:33 pm
Quote
One thing really bothers me is that there were clearly few major-class false claims and promises in the pro-Brexit campain which could have had a profound effect on the result.

isn't that a good thing? Sounds like you are saying that the pro-Brexit camp won in spite of making fewer claims / promises.

or you think they should have lied more?

Quote
In a similar manner, don't you think that you should have a right to complain and ask for a refund if a seller sells you fake components, non-existing items, a broken measurement instrument as a working instrument, a bicycle as a sports car etc.? Or, do you just think "Oh dear, I just got screwed big time and now I just have to go on with my life?"

You should. and the political system gives you quite a few mechanisms precisely for that: you can propose another referrendum, you can vote out the politicians whose views you don't care too much about, you can disassociate with your fellow citizens and form an independent country in rejoining the EU, you can give up your citizenship and join a different country of your liking, etc.

If you get enough like-minded people on any of that, you can realize your recourse.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Zero999 on July 04, 2016, 01:15:44 pm
To put things in perspective: for EU that means about 10% of total trade, which is why the UK will be lower priority than the US and China, etc. That's what Obama meant by "back of the queue": the US will also prioritize the EU since the UK are so small in comparison.
What Obama said is irrelevant because he will no longer in power when the UK leaves the EU and this is more than just about money.

When I voted to join what was then the EEC I never voted for Political union.
1) You didn't vote to join in 1973, you voted on continued membership in 1975.
2) And yes, you voted for political union, you just didn't know it.
3) Neither were the voters in my country told about that when they went to the polling stations in October 1972.
The UK wanted to join the EEC already in 1961 but were not allowed to because the French (Charles de Gaulle) felt they were too un-european and would only cause trouble. The UK weren't allowed to join until 1973. Now they want to leave, and who knows, in 10-20 years maybe they will join again. The next time there won't be any rebate or special treatment though.
Perhaps the French were right? The UK is not European enough to become part of the EU superstate.

Another thing: they may not be an EU in 10 to 20 years time.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Alex Nikitin on July 04, 2016, 01:19:21 pm
The first referendum on that issue in 1975 (though it was only about joining the EEC, not the "superstate" EU)
The 1975 referendum wasn't about joining. You joined on the 1st of January 1973. So the 1975 referendum was actually like the 2016 one. Remain or leave, stay or go  :box:)

I stand corrected, thank you. I knew it was the case but did not formulate my sentence accurately.

Would they complain about the rules equally loudly had they won? Don't think so.

Of course there would be a similar discussion going on, if someone would have decided so,

One thing really bothers me is that there were clearly few major-class false claims and promises in the pro-Brexit campain which could have had a profound effect on the result.

In a similar manner, don't you think that you should have a right to complain and ask for a refund if a seller sells you fake components, non-existing items, a broken measurement instrument as a working instrument, a bicycle as a sports car etc.? Or, do you just think "Oh dear, I just got screwed big time and now I just have to go on with my life?"

I do not believe that the majority of voters based their decision much on what politicians have said. Moreover, I think if somebody did vote only because of what politicians said, he/she has no grounds to complain  ;) . If in doubt - research things or just don't vote (though then you would have no right to complain whatsoever  ;D ) . It is your vote and ultimately your responsibility. Use your brain - at least to understand that you are not a customer in a shop.

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 04, 2016, 01:19:50 pm
I didn't realise I should discount everything he says because of that though.
I didn't say that, I was just wondering if this is a minority that has the power and wants to keep the power and that might be the reason for his opinion. If that is a good thing or not, i don't care. Just interested in someones agenda and then listen to him with that agenda in mind  ;)

He's very consistent and seems principled, although I don't agree with everything he says. Everyone has an agenda on this topic...

Quote from: Kjelt link=topic=69503.msg975985#msg975985 date=1467634127
But I believe the lists of candidates are decided on by the individual political parties, unless someone stands as an independent.
So how is this different from the EU where the members are (s)elected inside the parties ?
All I am saying is that by his own definition of lack of democracy he is part of the same practice. If you want to run tomorrow you are not getting on the list.
Most people do not realize how little democratic their democracy really is. BTW the same here in Holland, same crappy system.
When you vote for UK parliamentry elections you get the chance to vote for one candidate from each party standing, plus any independents, you can hold them personally accountable, I have one MP who I can engage with. If I don't consider they are doing a good job I won't vote for them again.

I have 8 MEPs from 5 parties. If I remember correctly in EU elections you only get to vote for a party, not an individual. So my MEPs, though pretty much powerless, are also much less personally accountable.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kalvin on July 04, 2016, 01:21:11 pm
Quote
One thing really bothers me is that there were clearly few major-class false claims and promises in the pro-Brexit campain which could have had a profound effect on the result.

isn't that a good thing? Sounds like you are saying that the pro-Brexit camp won in spite of making fewer claims / promises.

or you think they should have lied more?

Hah :) Sorry, language issue, my bad. Made the correction into my original posting.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 04, 2016, 01:28:14 pm
Quote
One thing really bothers me is that there were clearly few major-class false claims and promises in the pro-Brexit campain which could have had a profound effect on the result.

isn't that a good thing? Sounds like you are saying that the pro-Brexit camp won in spite of making fewer claims / promises.

or you think they should have lied more?

Hah :) Sorry, language issue, my bad. Made the correction into my original posting.

If you want to claim that the Brexit side lied that's fine. It's all a matter of scale.

The remain side claimed that Brexit would start WW III.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Zero999 on July 04, 2016, 01:33:57 pm
Quote
One thing really bothers me is that there were clearly few major-class false claims and promises in the pro-Brexit campain which could have had a profound effect on the result.

isn't that a good thing? Sounds like you are saying that the pro-Brexit camp won in spite of making fewer claims / promises.

or you think they should have lied more?

Hah :) Sorry, language issue, my bad. Made the correction into my original posting.

If you want to claim that the Brexit side lied that's fine. It's all a matter of scale.

The remain side claimed that Brexit would start WW III.
Both sides lied. I wonder if the result would be any different if both sides only told the truth?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Alex Nikitin on July 04, 2016, 01:48:53 pm
Both sides lied. I wonder if the result would be any different if both sides only told the truth?

Which truth?  ::) .

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 04, 2016, 02:12:46 pm
I hope this can be contained as merely a political bloodbath. My fear is what happens when the disenfranchised brexiters realise that either (a) brexit will hit them harder than the establishment, or (b) that establishment politicians don't deliver what they promised. Neither is good for the democratic process.

Welcome to the 1930s, in the Weimar Republic.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 04, 2016, 02:21:09 pm
Oh. Good. Grief.

Translation: I can't explain my idea, so my ideological opponents must do it for me.
Original: "Boris Johnson has accused the government of failing to explain how the vote to leave the EU can be made to work in the UK's interests."

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36700468 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36700468)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Alex Nikitin on July 04, 2016, 02:27:00 pm
Oh. Good. Grief.

Translation: I can't explain my idea, so my ideological opponents must do it for me.
Original: "Boris Johnson has accused the government of failing to explain how the vote to leave the EU can be made to work in the UK's interests."

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36700468 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36700468)

 :palm:

You are quoting the BBC headline interpretation of what BJ said (or not said, as might be the case) and translate from it! Ouch!

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on July 04, 2016, 02:34:40 pm
Welcome to the 1930s, in the Weimar Republic.
Why? Did you loose a long war and were blead dry by the winning countries?
Don't think so. Business will get back as usual but a bit less probably.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 04, 2016, 02:41:55 pm
Oh. Good. Grief.

Translation: I can't explain my idea, so my ideological opponents must do it for me.
Original: "Boris Johnson has accused the government of failing to explain how the vote to leave the EU can be made to work in the UK's interests."

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36700468 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36700468)

 :palm:

You are quoting the BBC headline interpretation of what BJ said (or not said, as might be the case) and translate from it! Ouch!

Given the gravity of the situation, even if there is only 10% truth (whatever that might mean) to the reports, it is effing disgraceful and very worrying for the future. There should be zero need for any remotely similar headlines.

The positions (whether or not you agree with them) should be so self-evident that no explanation should be necessary.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on July 04, 2016, 02:55:07 pm
Cameron exit
Johnson exit
Farage exit

Who is going to take it on her/his shoulders to bare the responsibility?  :popcorn:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Alex Nikitin on July 04, 2016, 03:08:29 pm
Given the gravity of the situation, even if there is only 10% truth (whatever that might mean) to the reports, it is effing disgraceful and very worrying for the future. There should be zero need for any remotely similar headlines.

The positions (whether or not you agree with them) should be so self-evident that no explanation should be necessary.

You should complain to the BBC. They made a lot of effort to be as scary as possible on the Brexit issue. I can see that they successfully induced some irrational fear in you  ;) .

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on July 04, 2016, 03:18:45 pm
The Brexit turnout was 72% which means that 28% didn't vote for a reason or another. Leave won with 52% while Remain lost with 48%, which means that 37% of all Britons wanted to Leave, 35% wanted to remain and 28% didn't state their opinions. We can of course speculate why the remaining 28% didn't vote: Either they didn't care, the status quo is just fine, or due to some other reason. Nevertheless, the Leave votes doesn't represent the majority of the Britons (only 37%), although the Leave votes represent the majority of the voters.


All true but irrelevant.  You can't make the position that all of the non-voters would have voted to remain.  Nor can I make the position that they would have all voted to leave.  Maybe the percentages would have varied in a 100% vote but maybe not.  You think 'status quo' is one possible thought, I think 'I simply don't care how it works out' is another.

The only proper way to handle elections is to REQUIRE people to vote.  Singapore does that and I think it is because, on average, people want to maintain the status quo.  Nobody likes change.  Which, of course, supports your position.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on July 04, 2016, 03:34:40 pm
Quote
One thing really bothers me is that there were clearly some major-class false claims and promises in the pro-Brexit campaign which could have had a profound effect on the result.

That can be difficult to do.

Many times, "facts" and "opinions" are hard to separate. And then you have the issue of what's said and what's being perceived. On top of that, people should be able to express their opinions freely, politicians included.

Having said that, I do think if you can prove the intent of fraud (next to impossible to do in reality), you should be able to file a lawsuit.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 04, 2016, 03:57:08 pm
The only proper way to handle elections is to REQUIRE people to vote.
It appears that the western countries that have proportional representation tend to have higher voter turnouts than countries, like the UK and the US, that don't. Between 85% and 90% is certainly not unheard of. The voters in proportional representation systems are a lot less likely to be disenfranchised and politically alienated.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 04, 2016, 04:20:11 pm
Quote
One thing really bothers me is that there were clearly some major-class false claims and promises in the pro-Brexit campaign which could have had a profound effect on the result.

That can be difficult to do.

It took hours, not days, for several prominent pro-Brexiters to whine "I didn't say that" when presented with the claims made by Brexiteers. They knew they were lies, and they chose not to correct the lies being made by their own campaign.

And if you want to see deceitful squirming w.r.t. "black" propaganda before the vote, have a look at the questioning and (lack of) answers in this Parliamentary committee where Dominic Cummings is questioned by Andrew Tyrie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fJjShkGCa4c#t=661 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fJjShkGCa4c#t=661)

I came across one of those leaflets a few months ago, and I was taken in by it for a few minutes.

Please don't bring up the lies told by the other side: two wrongs don't make a right. One side isn't responsible for the claims made by the other - but they damn well ought to be responsible for what their own side says.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on July 04, 2016, 04:36:51 pm
Cameron exit
Johnson exit
Farage exit

Who is going to take it on her/his shoulders to bare the responsibility?  :popcorn:

Simply an other Spider Captain that embarked the troops on the ships but the captain disappeared.

I believe that the british must  consider to reinstatement the Capital punishment for abandoning to duty whith the goal that the troop don't down the morale
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 04, 2016, 04:45:19 pm
Quote
One thing really bothers me is that there were clearly some major-class false claims and promises in the pro-Brexit campaign which could have had a profound effect on the result.

That can be difficult to do.

It took hours, not days, for several prominent pro-Brexiters to whine "I didn't say that" when presented with the claims made by Brexiteers. They knew they were lies, and they chose not to correct the lies being made by their own campaign.

And if you want to see deceitful squirming w.r.t. "black" propaganda before the vote, have a look at the questioning and (lack of) answers in this Parliamentary committee where Dominic Cummings is questioned by Andrew Tyrie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fJjShkGCa4c#t=661 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fJjShkGCa4c#t=661)

I came across one of those leaflets a few months ago, and I was taken in by it for a few minutes.

Please don't bring up the lies told by the other side: two wrongs don't make a right. One side isn't responsible for the claims made by the other - but they damn well ought to be responsible for what their own side says.

I'm disappointed that truthful/accurate information was generally NOT supplied to the electorate (politically).

For a referendum, it would be much better (in my opinion), if (politically) independent bodies could be funded, who report to the electorate, with reliable/truthful/accurate/un-biased facts/opinions, as to the referendum situation.

As it was the politicians put their own slants on the information, and news sources want to (typically) gain as many views/publicity as possible, so they tend to exaggerate and leave out less popular stuff.

The Scottish (exit the UK) referendum was similar, and I was very disappointed in the apparent lies and/or exaggerations etc of the leave the UK campaign.

If a business was trying to make a very important decision. They need/want to have reliable/accurate and un-biased information.

I'm disappointed that was not the case in the referendum, in many cases.

E.g. 350 Million pounds per week MORE for the NHS.
Obviously the money (much of which we get back anyway, would be spent elsewhere).
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 04, 2016, 04:47:39 pm
Quote
One thing really bothers me is that there were clearly some major-class false claims and promises in the pro-Brexit campaign which could have had a profound effect on the result.

That can be difficult to do.

It took hours, not days, for several prominent pro-Brexiters to whine "I didn't say that" when presented with the claims made by Brexiteers. They knew they were lies, and they chose not to correct the lies being made by their own campaign.

And if you want to see deceitful squirming w.r.t. "black" propaganda before the vote, have a look at the questioning and (lack of) answers in this Parliamentary committee where Dominic Cummings is questioned by Andrew Tyrie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fJjShkGCa4c#t=661 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fJjShkGCa4c#t=661)

I came across one of those leaflets a few months ago, and I was taken in by it for a few minutes.

Please don't bring up the lies told by the other side: two wrongs don't make a right. One side isn't responsible for the claims made by the other - but they damn well ought to be responsible for what their own side says.

I'm disappointed that truthful/accurate information was generally NOT supplied to the electorate.

For a referendum, it would be much better (in my opinion), if (politically) independent bodies could be funded, who report to the electorate, with reliable/truthful/accurate/un-biased facts/opinions, as to the referendum situation.

As it was the politicians put their own slants on the information, and news sources want to (typically) gain as many views/publicity as possible, so they tend to exaggerate and leave out less popular stuff.

The Scottish (exit the UK) referendum was similar, and I was very disappointed in the apparent lies and/or exaggerations etc of the leave the UK campaign.

Precisely. The debate was a national disgrace and made me ashamed to be British.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on July 04, 2016, 05:04:29 pm
Quote
It appears that the western countries that have proportional representation tend to have higher voter turnouts than countries, like the UK and the US, that don't.

Could it be other factors at work? like size? fairly good political system? reasonably uniform cultures / background / believes? ........

You have to control for other variables or you arrive at misleading conclusions.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: chris_leyson on July 04, 2016, 05:09:19 pm
Quote
Precisely. The debate was a national disgrace and made me ashamed to be British.
Yep, me too man, and probably a lot of other Brits on the forum, I don't think British politics has ever sunken so low. Now there is a legal challange and changes to the constitution will need to debated in parliament before article 50 can be agreed to, a lot of people now doubting if Brexit will ever happen.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on July 04, 2016, 05:22:32 pm
I'm disappointed that truthful/accurate information was generally NOT supplied to the electorate (politically).
For a referendum, it would be much better (in my opinion), if (politically) independent bodies could be funded, who report to the electorate, with reliable/truthful/accurate/un-biased facts/opinions, as to the referendum situation.
Even if there were such a thing as independent organisation, that still would have been money flushed down the drain IMO, because the truth simply is, nobody knows what is going to happen now.
But thanks to the UK voters we are going to find out what happens next.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 04, 2016, 05:37:05 pm
Even if there were such a thing as independent organisation, that still would have been money flushed down the drain IMO, because the truth simply is, nobody knows what is going to happen now.
But thanks to the UK voters we are going to find out what happens next.

I agree that no one really knows the answers. But we could have at least been presented with reliable/accurate facts and figures about the existing EU situation. I now know (AFTER the referendum has finished), far more about the EU, than I did before.

I'm also disappointed that the EU and the member countries seem to be blaming the UK, for Brexit. I.e. We may just be the first of a few, or even more countries that decide to leave.

It may well end up being the case, that in the upcoming future years, other (current) EU member countries also have referendums, and may also decide to leave. Potentially either ending the EU and/or dramatically changing how the EU works and its responsibilities.
I.e. No EU and/or a drastically restructured scope/functionality EU and/or an EU with many of the existing EU member countries outside of it.

I'm interested in what is going to happen in the next few years, as regards the EU. If any other significant player EU member countries also end up leaving. I think things will be far more likely to change, as regards the EU.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 04, 2016, 05:54:08 pm
When I voted to join what was then the EEC I never voted for Political union.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feature_creep
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on July 04, 2016, 06:19:09 pm
Quote
because the truth simply is, nobody knows what is going to happen now.

I would take that one step further and state that not one person / organization knows what's good for us all.

Thus, however imperfectly executed, a referrendum is the (constrained) optimal solution.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on July 04, 2016, 06:19:13 pm
Even if there were such a thing as independent organisation, that still would have been money flushed down the drain IMO, because the truth simply is, nobody knows what is going to happen now.
But thanks to the UK voters we are going to find out what happens next.

I agree that no one really knows the answers. But we could have at least been presented with reliable/accurate facts and figures about the existing EU situation. I now know (AFTER the referendum has finished), far more about the EU, than I did before.

I'm also disappointed that the EU and the member countries seem to be blaming the UK, for Brexit. I.e. We may just be the first of a few, or even more countries that decide to leave.


It may well end up being the case, that in the upcoming future years, other (current) EU member countries also have referendums, and may also decide to leave. Potentially either ending the EU and/or dramatically changing how the EU works and its responsibilities.
I.e. No EU and/or a drastically restructured scope/functionality EU and/or an EU with many of the existing EU member countries outside of it.

I'm interested in what is going to happen in the next few years, as regards the EU. If any other significant player EU member countries also end up leaving. I think things will be far more likely to change, as regards the EU.

I am seeing as the Spider Captains dissapeared, i arrived the conclusion that the British Politics didn't want the Brexit ,and they have mounted all that spiel as the classic kid  with a huff, kicking and screaming.

Only there are two solutions , you give to kid all he wants, and you will avoid the huff or you leave the hand to walk and the kid will think it two time for throwing to floor

And the EU will choose leaving the hand to walk
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on July 04, 2016, 06:22:55 pm
It would be comparable to the UK people of today still holding a grudge against the romans or the Norse Vikings. Only conflict in the middle east even predates those expansionist wars. They are still fighting in the middle east over stuff that happened over a thousand years ago. All other civilisation moved forward they still live a thousand years in the past.
I think the more interesting question is why they fight. I think the biggest problem is that most people are poor and if you tell poor people to cut their neighbour's head of because he has a funny beard, a long nose or whatever then poor people will do that. I have no clear answer to stop the violence but it will take getting rid of the people turning people against eachother for their own gain (power trip), educating the general public and get the region the prospher somehow. But maybe we just have to let Darwin sort it out. At some point the people who want to fight have killed eachother so the genetically less inclined to fight will be the (more) peacefull leftovers.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 04, 2016, 06:36:15 pm
I am seeing as the Spider Captains dissapeared, i arrived the conclusion that the British Politics didn't want the Brexit ,and they have mounted all that spiel as the classic kid  with a huff, kicking and screaming.

Only there are two solutions , you give to kid all he wants, and you will avoid the huff or you leave the hand to walk and the kid will think it two time for throwing to floor

And the EU will choose leaving the hand to walk

I agree the British political establishment seem to have been taken, completely by surprise. Which in itself is a bad thing, since they should have known it was a significant possibility and/or been prepared for that option anyway.
As it is, they are looking like a right shambles (probably just about ALL parties).

I also agree that (currently) the EU, is saying "Bye, close the door on the way out".

But if other countries also leave, I think the EU will either be more likely to compromise and/or it will be the end of the EU (or it will painfully struggle on, with a different set of counties within it).
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 04, 2016, 06:48:43 pm
But if other countries also leave, I think the EU will either be more likely to compromise and/or it will be the end of the EU (or it will painfully struggle on, with a different set of counties within it).

The 27 will have to crucify the UK, so as to make it clear to their population that leaving is the worse option.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 04, 2016, 06:50:32 pm
I'm interested in what is going to happen in the next few years, as regards the EU. If any other significant player EU member countries also end up leaving. I think things will be far more likely to change, as regards the EU.

The 27 are motivated to crucify the UK, "pour encourager les autres" - i.e. let their population see that leaving is worse than staying.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on July 04, 2016, 06:51:32 pm
It would be comparable to the UK people of today still holding a grudge against the romans or the Norse Vikings. Only conflict in the middle east even predates those expansionist wars. They are still fighting in the middle east over stuff that happened over a thousand years ago. All other civilisation moved forward they still live a thousand years in the past.
I think the more interesting question is why they fight. I think the biggest problem is that most people are poor and if you tell poor people to cut their neighbour's head of because he has a funny beard, a long nose or whatever then poor people will do that. I have no clear answer to stop the violence but it will take getting rid of the people turning people against eachother for their own gain (power trip), educating the general public and get the region the prospher somehow. But maybe we just have to let Darwin sort it out. At some point the people who want to fight have killed eachother so the genetically less inclined to fight will be the (more) peacefull leftovers.

1. Give up the poor and analphabet people excuse becuase there are too rich people that they recieved good education as the Bangladesh terrorist.

2. The wars on middle-east are fought about all clans wars between the same group religious and rarely against other differents religious group(Sunni vs chris, Kurdish VS chilis).
    and the concept family clan are differents to european familiar(9-20 members), they can have until 300 members or more and maybe they have never seen,but they are considered family.

3. The peace on middle-east almost always have imposed with a tyran or a dictator
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 04, 2016, 06:54:56 pm
But if other countries also leave, I think the EU will either be more likely to compromise and/or it will be the end of the EU (or it will painfully struggle on, with a different set of counties within it).

The 27 will have to crucify the UK, so as to make it clear to their population that leaving is the worse option.

I agree. They are treating us like the bad "boy" of the EU.

But I think that policy will back-fire, big time on the EU. The wrong thing to do at the wrong time.

Germany is getting especially worried, as they may have to fork out huge amount of money, to keep the EU afloat. (That is my interpretation, anyway).

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/683224/END-OF-THE-EU-Germany-France-Austria-Hungary-Finland-Netherlands-Europe-Brexit (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/683224/END-OF-THE-EU-Germany-France-Austria-Hungary-Finland-Netherlands-Europe-Brexit)

Quote
END OF THE EU? Germany warns FIVE more countries could leave Europe after Brexit

FIVE European countries may seek to follow Britain’s lead in leaving the EU in a Brexit domino effect, Germany has warned.

By JONATHAN OWEN

France, the Netherlands, Austria, Finland and Hungary could leave.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on July 04, 2016, 06:56:37 pm
I'm interested in what is going to happen in the next few years, as regards the EU. If any other significant player EU member countries also end up leaving. I think things will be far more likely to change, as regards the EU.

The 27 are motivated to crucify the UK, "pour encourager les autres" - i.e. let their population see that leaving is worse than staying.

https://youtu.be/P-7moc6I9Jg (https://youtu.be/P-7moc6I9Jg)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Alex Nikitin on July 04, 2016, 07:07:08 pm
I'm interested in what is going to happen in the next few years, as regards the EU. If any other significant player EU member countries also end up leaving. I think things will be far more likely to change, as regards the EU.

The 27 are motivated to crucify the UK, "pour encourager les autres" - i.e. let their population see that leaving is worse than staying.

Oh, that will be the perfect  illustration why the UK is much better out of this camp 8) .

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 04, 2016, 07:19:40 pm
I'm interested in what is going to happen in the next few years, as regards the EU. If any other significant player EU member countries also end up leaving. I think things will be far more likely to change, as regards the EU.

The 27 are motivated to crucify the UK, "pour encourager les autres" - i.e. let their population see that leaving is worse than staying.

Oh, that will be the perfect  illustration why the UK is much better out of this camp 8) .

Prove that assertion.

This isn't a game, despite what some politicians evidently believe.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 04, 2016, 07:26:10 pm
But if other countries also leave, I think the EU will either be more likely to compromise and/or it will be the end of the EU (or it will painfully struggle on, with a different set of counties within it).

The 27 will have to crucify the UK, so as to make it clear to their population that leaving is the worse option.

I agree. They are treating us like the bad "boy" of the EU.

But I think that policy will back-fire, big time on the EU. The wrong thing to do at the wrong time.

Germany is getting especially worried, as they may have to fork out huge amount of money, to keep the EU afloat. (That is my interpretation, anyway).

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/683224/END-OF-THE-EU-Germany-France-Austria-Hungary-Finland-Netherlands-Europe-Brexit (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/683224/END-OF-THE-EU-Germany-France-Austria-Hungary-Finland-Netherlands-Europe-Brexit)

Quote
END OF THE EU? Germany warns FIVE more countries could leave Europe after Brexit

FIVE European countries may seek to follow Britain’s lead in leaving the EU in a Brexit domino effect, Germany has warned.

By JONATHAN OWEN

France, the Netherlands, Austria, Finland and Hungary could leave.

Who knows :( Either way it is a hell of a gamble.

We deserve better than our fate being determined by a couple of old Etonian Bully(ngdon) Boys playing dominance games.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Alex Nikitin on July 04, 2016, 07:33:16 pm
I'm interested in what is going to happen in the next few years, as regards the EU. If any other significant player EU member countries also end up leaving. I think things will be far more likely to change, as regards the EU.

The 27 are motivated to crucify the UK, "pour encourager les autres" - i.e. let their population see that leaving is worse than staying.

Oh, that will be the perfect  illustration why the UK is much better out of this camp 8) .

Prove that assertion.

This isn't a game, despite what some politicians evidently believe.

I've lived in the USSR half of my life, there people trying to leave the country were shot at or sent to labour camps - all for the common good. Now EU starts to smell that way  ;) .

Cheers

Alex

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 04, 2016, 07:36:58 pm
Who knows :( Either way it is a hell of a gamble.

We deserve better than our fate being determined by a couple of old Etonian Bully(ngdon) Boys playing dominance games.

Basically, we have been caught up in the EU headlights, heading towards us at high speed, and had to decide to Fight or flight ?

Where Fight (The EU) = Leave/Brexit and flight = Remain/Accept the way things are.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight_response (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight_response)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/This_was_a_timely_capture_%283926001309%29.jpg/440px-This_was_a_timely_capture_%283926001309%29.jpg)

Rightly or wrongly, we are fighting it out (or NOT depending on which rumors you believe).
EDIT: Corrected mistake
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Alex Nikitin on July 04, 2016, 07:38:47 pm

Who knows :( Either way it is a hell of a gamble.

We deserve better than our fate being determined by a couple of old Etonian Bully(ngdon) Boys playing dominance games.

Our fate was decided by the majority of voters, thankfully.

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on July 04, 2016, 08:02:05 pm
Who knows :( Either way it is a hell of a gamble.

We deserve better than our fate being determined by a couple of old Etonian Bully(ngdon) Boys playing dominance games.

Basically, we have been caught up in the EU headlights, heading towards us at high speed, and had to decide to Fight or flight ?

Where Fight (The EU) = Leave/Brexit and flight = Remain/Accept the way things are.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight_response (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight_response)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/This_was_a_timely_capture_%283926001309%29.jpg/440px-This_was_a_timely_capture_%283926001309%29.jpg)

Rightly or wrongly, we are fighting it out (or NOT depending on which rumors you believe).
EDIT: Corrected mistake

Rather fight , you have flown 3 leaders, please don't fight that  give me others cringe.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 04, 2016, 08:05:11 pm
I'm interested in what is going to happen in the next few years, as regards the EU. If any other significant player EU member countries also end up leaving. I think things will be far more likely to change, as regards the EU.

The 27 are motivated to crucify the UK, "pour encourager les autres" - i.e. let their population see that leaving is worse than staying.

Oh, that will be the perfect  illustration why the UK is much better out of this camp 8) .

Prove that assertion.

This isn't a game, despite what some politicians evidently believe.

I've lived in the USSR half of my life, there people trying to leave the country were shot at or sent to labour camps - all for the common good. Now EU starts to smell that way  ;) .

Having been through the Berlin Wall several times, and having had family friends that crawled under the Iron Curtain to escape, your statement is completely unbelievable.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 04, 2016, 08:09:50 pm
When I voted to join what was then the EEC I never voted for Political union.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feature_creep (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feature_creep)
Of course he did:
http://www.hri.org/docs/Rome57/Preamble.html (http://www.hri.org/docs/Rome57/Preamble.html)
"Determined to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe"
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Zero999 on July 04, 2016, 08:11:58 pm
The only proper way to handle elections is to REQUIRE people to vote.  Singapore does that and I think it is because, on average, people want to maintain the status quo.  Nobody likes change.  Which, of course, supports your position.
Singapore is hardly an example of a functioning democracy. It's much closer to a dictatorship than any EU country.

Precisely. The debate was a national disgrace and made me ashamed to be British.
I agree.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on July 04, 2016, 08:57:57 pm
I'm interested in what is going to happen in the next few years, as regards the EU. If any other significant player EU member countries also end up leaving. I think things will be far more likely to change, as regards the EU.

The 27 are motivated to crucify the UK, "pour encourager les autres" - i.e. let their population see that leaving is worse than staying.

Oh, that will be the perfect  illustration why the UK is much better out of this camp 8) .

Nobody wants leaders that behave repressionist like that. If there's any pro-EU feeling left in me, it's because they create(d) a moderate basis for voluntary partnerships.
I wouldn't wonder if that kind of behavour puts undecided people in the "Leave" camp for the upcoming referenda (if not banned by then)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 04, 2016, 09:18:01 pm
I hope this can be contained as merely a political bloodbath. My fear is what happens when the disenfranchised brexiters realise that either (a) brexit will hit them harder than the establishment, or (b) that establishment politicians don't deliver what they promised. Neither is good for the democratic process.
That is what is worrying me as well, Cameron has created a lose-lose situation for everyone. :--

Welcome to the 1930s, in the Weimar Republic.
Why? Did you loose a long war and were blead dry by the winning countries?
Don't think so. Business will get back as usual but a bit less probably.
Yeah, there are similarities but not as bad as that. The UK will be OK, just a lot less so than if they had stayed in the union. For EU things will continue mostly as usual, the power balance within the EU will shift a little bit to the east, EU-oriented businesses will move from the UK to other EU-countries, creating jobs here, etc.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 04, 2016, 09:22:07 pm
It would be comparable to the UK people of today still holding a grudge against the romans or the Norse Vikings. Only conflict in the middle east even predates those expansionist wars. They are still fighting in the middle east over stuff that happened over a thousand years ago. All other civilisation moved forward they still live a thousand years in the past.
I think the more interesting question is why they fight. I think the biggest problem is that most people are poor and if you tell poor people to cut their neighbour's head of because he has a funny beard, a long nose or whatever then poor people will do that. I have no clear answer to stop the violence but it will take getting rid of the people turning people against eachother for their own gain (power trip), educating the general public and get the region the prospher somehow. But maybe we just have to let Darwin sort it out. At some point the people who want to fight have killed eachother so the genetically less inclined to fight will be the (more) peacefull leftovers.
If evolution is making us more peaceful we would be peace-loving care-bears already. If one looks at the history of the world objectively it will be very obvious that people can be genocidal, warmongering zealots whether they are from the Middle East, Americas, Africa, Asia, or Europe. In certain situations it's in our DNA apparently, so we need to set up the political systems to prevent situations that cause people to go bonkers.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on July 04, 2016, 09:23:10 pm
Germany is getting especially worried, as they may have to fork out huge amount of money, to keep the EU afloat. (That is my interpretation, anyway).

Quote
END OF THE EU? Germany warns FIVE more countries could leave Europe after Brexit

FIVE European countries may seek to follow Britain’s lead in leaving the EU in a Brexit domino effect, Germany has warned.

France, the Netherlands, Austria, Finland and Hungary could leave.
Since the Netherlands is one of the founders of the EU it is highly unlikely the NL will leave (as in never ever). The claim in the article that the referendum about the treaty with Ukraine was rejected overwhelmingly is simply not true. The referendum in the Netherlands barely met it's turn up threshold (2% over 30%) and the outcome was 61/38. But it also says 68% of the voters didn't care at all. Or -like me- didn't vote because they found the referendum a waste of time. The whole referendum was a big hoax staged by an alternative news website with videos of the neighbour's cats doing funny jumps which was about to be closed down by the owners due to lack of revenue. All in all I'd take the article with a large grain of salt.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 04, 2016, 09:27:26 pm
I'm interested in what is going to happen in the next few years, as regards the EU. If any other significant player EU member countries also end up leaving. I think things will be far more likely to change, as regards the EU.
The 27 are motivated to crucify the UK, "pour encourager les autres" - i.e. let their population see that leaving is worse than staying.
Oh, that will be the perfect  illustration why the UK is much better out of this camp 8) .
If you stay, all your problems are because of the EU.
If you leave, all your problems are because of the EU.
How convenient. ::)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Alex Nikitin on July 04, 2016, 09:35:32 pm
I'm interested in what is going to happen in the next few years, as regards the EU. If any other significant player EU member countries also end up leaving. I think things will be far more likely to change, as regards the EU.

The 27 are motivated to crucify the UK, "pour encourager les autres" - i.e. let their population see that leaving is worse than staying.

Oh, that will be the perfect  illustration why the UK is much better out of this camp 8) .

Prove that assertion.

This isn't a game, despite what some politicians evidently believe.

I've lived in the USSR half of my life, there people trying to leave the country were shot at or sent to labour camps - all for the common good. Now EU starts to smell that way  ;) .

Having been through the Berlin Wall several times, and having had family friends that crawled under the Iron Curtain to escape, your statement is completely unbelievable.

Out of curiosity - what exactly about my statement you find "completely unbelievable"? Or just all of it? It is accurate to the best of my (first-hand) knowledge. 

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 04, 2016, 09:40:33 pm
Germany is getting especially worried, as they may have to fork out huge amount of money, to keep the EU afloat. (That is my interpretation, anyway).

Quote
END OF THE EU? Germany warns FIVE more countries could leave Europe after Brexit

FIVE European countries may seek to follow Britain’s lead in leaving the EU in a Brexit domino effect, Germany has warned.

France, the Netherlands, Austria, Finland and Hungary could leave.
Since the Netherlands is one of the founders of the EU it is highly unlikely the NL will leave (as in never ever). The claim in the article that the referendum about the treaty with Ukraine was rejected overwhelmingly is simply not true. The referendum in the Netherlands barely met it's turn up threshold (2% over 30%) and the outcome was 61/38. But it also says 68% of the voters didn't care at all. Or -like me- didn't vote because they found the referendum a waste of time. The whole referendum was a big hoax staged by an alternative news website with videos of the neighbour's cats doing funny jumps which was about to be closed down by the owners due to lack of revenue. All in all I'd take the article with a large grain of salt.

If you are not happy with my original source. This one is even harder hitting . . .

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/25/european-leaders-fear-brexit-vote-could-herald-eu-collapse-unles/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/25/european-leaders-fear-brexit-vote-could-herald-eu-collapse-unles/)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on July 04, 2016, 10:21:45 pm
I'm interested in what is going to happen in the next few years, as regards the EU. If any other significant player EU member countries also end up leaving. I think things will be far more likely to change, as regards the EU.

The 27 are motivated to crucify the UK, "pour encourager les autres" - i.e. let their population see that leaving is worse than staying.

Oh, that will be the perfect  illustration why the UK is much better out of this camp 8) .

Prove that assertion.

This isn't a game, despite what some politicians evidently believe.

I've lived in the USSR half of my life, there people trying to leave the country were shot at or sent to labour camps - all for the common good. Now EU starts to smell that way  ;) .

Having been through the Berlin Wall several times, and having had family friends that crawled under the Iron Curtain to escape, your statement is completely unbelievable.

Out of curiosity - what exactly about my statement you find "completely unbelievable"? Or just all of it? It is accurate to the best of my (first-hand) knowledge. 

Cheers

Alex


As another unbeliever, the bit I didn't believe was "Now EU starts to smell that way".
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Alex Nikitin on July 04, 2016, 10:46:19 pm
I'm interested in what is going to happen in the next few years, as regards the EU. If any other significant player EU member countries also end up leaving. I think things will be far more likely to change, as regards the EU.

The 27 are motivated to crucify the UK, "pour encourager les autres" - i.e. let their population see that leaving is worse than staying.

Oh, that will be the perfect  illustration why the UK is much better out of this camp 8) .

Prove that assertion.

This isn't a game, despite what some politicians evidently believe.

I've lived in the USSR half of my life, there people trying to leave the country were shot at or sent to labour camps - all for the common good. Now EU starts to smell that way  ;) .

Having been through the Berlin Wall several times, and having had family friends that crawled under the Iron Curtain to escape, your statement is completely unbelievable.

Out of curiosity - what exactly about my statement you find "completely unbelievable"? Or just all of it? It is accurate to the best of my (first-hand) knowledge. 

Cheers

Alex


As another unbeliever, the bit I didn't believe was "Now EU starts to smell that way".

Hmm, any club where to join costs a pound and to leave - two pounds, smells just wrong to me. If EU officials consider ways to make the UK exit as difficult as possible (all for the common good of other members, obviously), that smells exactly as the Soviet type of politics. I sincerely hope that the EU would not use this kind of approach in practice, however we all will see what course will be taken soon enough.

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 04, 2016, 11:43:40 pm
I'm interested in what is going to happen in the next few years, as regards the EU. If any other significant player EU member countries also end up leaving. I think things will be far more likely to change, as regards the EU.

The 27 are motivated to crucify the UK, "pour encourager les autres" - i.e. let their population see that leaving is worse than staying.

Oh, that will be the perfect  illustration why the UK is much better out of this camp 8) .

Prove that assertion.

This isn't a game, despite what some politicians evidently believe.

I've lived in the USSR half of my life, there people trying to leave the country were shot at or sent to labour camps - all for the common good. Now EU starts to smell that way  ;) .

Having been through the Berlin Wall several times, and having had family friends that crawled under the Iron Curtain to escape, your statement is completely unbelievable.

Out of curiosity - what exactly about my statement you find "completely unbelievable"? Or just all of it? It is accurate to the best of my (first-hand) knowledge. 

All of your statement, of course.

I'll change my mind if you can demonstrate the existence of forced labour camps or of people being machine gunned for trying to leave. Or anything remotely comparable, for that matter.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 04, 2016, 11:49:57 pm
Welcome to the 1930s, in the Weimar Republic.
Why? Did you loose a long war and were blead dry by the winning countries?
Don't think so. Business will get back as usual but a bit less probably.

The Weimar Republic was rejected and replaced by you-know-who because the people no longer believed in the political establishment, and were prepared to grasp any alternative. There is a danger that might happen in the UK.

The causes of that disbelief and rejection are different, of course.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on July 05, 2016, 01:42:39 am
You could stick the very same label on anyone who votes for Hillary to! None of these are a "rational" vote as you try to make it.

But if you for a second put all that Washington post ect blabber aside and look into either one of these you get a textbook narcissist/oligarch, what kind of less-of-the-same is that? Hitler, Mossulini etc was also "disturbers".. Voting for any of these will just divide US even further but i suspect after reading your posts that is what you want?

Besides where is the "reasonable evidence" based on Trumps blabber for what Trump would/could achieve as president? Most of his promises is just wierd and even bended against the constitution. Trump on the other hand have managed to anger the Scotts at his golf course and earlier NRA with his "guns-in-the-bar-idea". What kind of ""disturbance"" was that? all it ended in was senate deadlock and the arms restriction law into the bin one more time. Trump didn't change status qou at all, he rather cemented it! And voting in Hillary would most likely end in the very same cementing!


I have to vote!  If I don't vote, I can't bitch.  So sayeth my father a long time ago!

I would absolutely never vote for Hillary and Trump is the only other realistic choice.   There is no check box for None Of The Above.  We have a vacancy in the Supreme Court.  I would be happy with a vacancy in the Office of the President.

Alright then, i dont vote and do bitch because there is no realistic choices to vote on, so your "american way" is for me a bit of a contradiction... sort of.. Still, out of 318.9 mill people Trump is the only other realistic choice seams just a bit odd, but actually it would be quite interesting to see Trump as president..I assume anything from highly entertaining to hideous disgusting, or both!

(http://9953-presscdn-0-37.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/ck-700x457.jpg)


I asked before to name one thing the UK is good at. So far the only significant item on the list seems that London is Europe's financial centre.

Fish and Chips? Easy for EU to move banking to Frankfurt or Paris.

I would also like to inform debaters about the Nordic agreement started in 1952 which enables Nordic's to work, live study buy property etc in these countries:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Passport_Union (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Passport_Union)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on July 05, 2016, 02:42:20 am
I'm interested in what is going to happen in the next few years, as regards the EU. If any other significant player EU member countries also end up leaving. I think things will be far more likely to change, as regards the EU.

The 27 are motivated to crucify the UK, "pour encourager les autres" - i.e. let their population see that leaving is worse than staying.

Oh, that will be the perfect  illustration why the UK is much better out of this camp 8) .

Prove that assertion.

This isn't a game, despite what some politicians evidently believe.

I've lived in the USSR half of my life, there people trying to leave the country were shot at or sent to labour camps - all for the common good. Now EU starts to smell that way  ;) .

Having been through the Berlin Wall several times, and having had family friends that crawled under the Iron Curtain to escape, your statement is completely unbelievable.

Out of curiosity - what exactly about my statement you find "completely unbelievable"? Or just all of it? It is accurate to the best of my (first-hand) knowledge. 

All of your statement, of course.

I'll change my mind if you can demonstrate the existence of forced labour camps or of people being machine gunned for trying to leave. Or anything remotely comparable, for that matter.


While I neither agree or disagree with Alex's statement, I do appreciate the point he has made - and can see how he has formed this opinion.  You, however, have taken the concept being presented to the ridiculous extreme.  In my eyes at least, you have lost all credibility in this line of discussion.

For those who might wonder what I mean:
 Alex Nikitin is saying 'It seems to be getting warmer' and tggzzz has responded with 'Show me where are sitting on the surface of the sun with our backsides getting fried'.


Such techniques make for poor - certainly less than worthwhile - discussion and are typical in many political topics, not just in the UK, but anywhere and everywhere across the globe.  Throw in the media and there's little chance the voters will actually get much in the way of objective information - and even less of them being able to recognise it in the sea of bullsh*t that surrounds them.

Precisely. The debate was a national disgrace and made me ashamed to be British.

Don't be ashamed to be British, be ashamed to be part of a political and media driven world ... but also have a look in the mirror.  Propagating the type of extreme response I mentioned above is exactly the type of thing that contributes to: "The debate was a national disgrace".


Unfounded sensationalism may score points with the general public, but when I see it, it irritates me no end.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on July 05, 2016, 04:53:20 am
I'm interested in what is going to happen in the next few years, as regards the EU. If any other significant player EU member countries also end up leaving. I think things will be far more likely to change, as regards the EU.

The 27 are motivated to crucify the UK, "pour encourager les autres" - i.e. let their population see that leaving is worse than staying.

Oh, that will be the perfect  illustration why the UK is much better out of this camp 8) .

Prove that assertion.

This isn't a game, despite what some politicians evidently believe.

I've lived in the USSR half of my life, there people trying to leave the country were shot at or sent to labour camps - all for the common good. Now EU starts to smell that way  ;) .

Having been through the Berlin Wall several times, and having had family friends that crawled under the Iron Curtain to escape, your statement is completely unbelievable.

Out of curiosity - what exactly about my statement you find "completely unbelievable"? Or just all of it? It is accurate to the best of my (first-hand) knowledge. 

Cheers

Alex


All of it.  Just try it and leave. You won't be shot.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on July 05, 2016, 05:04:58 am
Let me ask one simple question:

Did at any point in time was it stated that a simple majority of those who voted would result in an immutable obligation upon the UK government to exit the EU?

Yes.

Cheers

Alex

Where can I find this?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on July 05, 2016, 05:05:25 am


Hmm, any club where to join costs a pound and to leave - two pounds, smells just wrong to me. If EU officials consider ways to make the UK exit as difficult as possible (all for the common good of other members, obviously), that smells exactly as the Soviet type of politics. I sincerely hope that the EU would not use this kind of approach in practice, however we all will see what course will be taken soon enough.

Cheers

Alex

Leaving the club is free. There is no cost in submitting a leave.

You don't have the burdens and benifits of the club anymore after you left. That may be a benifit or a burden. But it is what the people of Brittain wanted.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on July 05, 2016, 07:11:27 am
UK leaving the EU is one of the biggest critics (unfortunately) leaving the club so why would other countries now leave or the EU start to reform rigirously? The main critic has left ?

Then for other countries leaving the EU, that could IMO be a possibility when UK has a grand master plan, executes it correctly and shows the rest of the EU or world that its country flourished and grown economically after leaving.

What do we see:
1) the GBP under pressure
2) companies leaving or threatening to leave
3) the political leaders that should now execute the masterplan seem to have no masterplan and are bailing out one by one.

What should be the reason to leave the EU ?
IF countries would leave the EU they would wait and see how the UK will continue and IF succesfull perhaps some will also leave, however the countries you name do not have the same economical situation as the UK, for instance the Netherlands earns most of its money from import/export so we need to have negotiations with a lot of other countries, leaving the EU would kill all those treaties.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on July 05, 2016, 07:37:02 am
Hmm, any club where to join costs a pound and to leave - two pounds, smells just wrong to me. If EU officials consider ways to make the UK exit as difficult as possible (all for the common good of other members, obviously), that smells exactly as the Soviet type of politics. I sincerely hope that the EU would not use this kind of approach in practice, however we all will see what course will be taken soon enough.

Cheers

Alex
The only difference to-be-made is causing a complete bankrupcy, so that the walls and border security that are used to keep some of the migrants OUTSIDE the area can be used for keeping the population INSIDE the area.

(this is not a racist statement, but an observation. there are walls, and there is border security, and there are legal and illegal migrants wanting to cross it)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Zero999 on July 05, 2016, 07:45:00 am
When I voted to join what was then the EEC I never voted for Political union.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feature_creep (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feature_creep)
Of course he did:
http://www.hri.org/docs/Rome57/Preamble.html (http://www.hri.org/docs/Rome57/Preamble.html)
"Determined to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe"
Yes, I've seen that treaty before when researching my decision on how to vote, but were the electorate aware of it at the time?

Were copies of the treaty widely published and easily available to the UK public?

I wasn't there at the time but I get the feeling few people who voted in the last referendum on Europe were aware of they were really signing up to.

A true democracy only exists when there is a well informed electorate but it seems like this wasn't the case in EU referenda of 1975 and in 2016.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on July 05, 2016, 07:46:55 am
Let me ask one simple question:

Did at any point in time was it stated that a simple majority of those who voted would result in an immutable obligation upon the UK government to exit the EU?

As far as I heard till now, the british referendum isn't binding, but a major politician(s)/party(s) (cameron?) promised he will treat is as binding.
But of course, "democracy" delivers many possibilities to put the people's will aside.

There has always been the possibility to Brexit, even if only 20% of the population wanted it.
Completely unthinkable, of course, witch shows in this case that the political class and bureaucracy will always only tend to more politics and more bureaucracy.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on July 05, 2016, 07:55:35 am
Having been through the Berlin Wall several times, and having had family friends that crawled under the Iron Curtain to escape, your statement is completely unbelievable.

We were told that border was armed and dangerous, and they will shoot to kill. But I've never been there.

http://www.berliner-mauer-gedenkstaette.de/en/todesopfer-240.html (http://www.berliner-mauer-gedenkstaette.de/en/todesopfer-240.html)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Wall (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Wall)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiCd5iAi7Qc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiCd5iAi7Qc)

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on July 05, 2016, 08:03:37 am
Alright then, i dont vote and do bitch because there is no realistic choices to vote on, so your "american way" is for me a bit of a contradiction... sort of.. Still, out of 318.9 mill people Trump is the only other realistic choice seams just a bit odd, but actually it would be quite interesting to see Trump as president..I assume anything from highly entertaining to hideous disgusting, or both!
My biggest fear is he indeed gets elected, and then does nothing he promised, and starts imitating Obama/Hillary/Bush(1).
And goes to Saudi Arabia to talk about the human rights institute, visits Wallstreet and does some expensive speeches, and has meetings with hollande/merkel/juncker about more bureaucracy, and keeps on injecting money in the war Bush/Obama(1) started.

(1) Delete as appropriate.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 05, 2016, 09:12:44 am
Trimmed/reorganised to highlight the key point which has evidently been missed; look in Brumby's original message for full history.
Quote from: Alex Nikitin
I've lived in the USSR half of my life, there people trying to leave the country were shot at or sent to labour camps - all for the common good. Now EU starts to smell that way  ;) .

While I neither agree or disagree with Alex's statement, I do appreciate the point he has made - and can see how he has formed this opinion.  You, however, have taken the concept being presented to the ridiculous extreme.  In my eyes at least, you have lost all credibility in this line of discussion.

For those who might wonder what I mean:
 Alex Nikitin is saying 'It seems to be getting warmer' and tggzzz has responded with 'Show me where are sitting on the surface of the sun with our backsides getting fried'.

Er. No. You've got that completely the wrong way round.

If you want to use that analogy, Nikitin compared sitting on the surface of the sun with it getting warmer in the EU. Nikitin mentioned people being shot/imprisoned. I objected to that ridiculous comparison!

In the USSR and satellites I know people that risked their lives to escape, and I personally saw (and have photos of) the killing zone on the "other" side of the Berlin Wall. As far as I am aware people are still risking their lives to get into the EU.

That's a hell of a difference.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on July 05, 2016, 09:17:09 am
You could stick the very same label on anyone who votes for Hillary to! None of these are a "rational" vote as you try to make it.

But if you for a second put all that Washington post ect blabber aside and look into either one of these you get a textbook narcissist/oligarch, what kind of less-of-the-same is that? Hitler, Mossulini etc was also "disturbers".. Voting for any of these will just divide US even further but i suspect after reading your posts that is what you want?

Besides where is the "reasonable evidence" based on Trumps blabber for what Trump would/could achieve as president? Most of his promises is just wierd and even bended against the constitution. Trump on the other hand have managed to anger the Scotts at his golf course and earlier NRA with his "guns-in-the-bar-idea". What kind of ""disturbance"" was that? all it ended in was senate deadlock and the arms restriction law into the bin one more time. Trump didn't change status qou at all, he rather cemented it! And voting in Hillary would most likely end in the very same cementing!


I have to vote!  If I don't vote, I can't bitch.  So sayeth my father a long time ago!

I would absolutely never vote for Hillary and Trump is the only other realistic choice.   There is no check box for None Of The Above.  We have a vacancy in the Supreme Court.  I would be happy with a vacancy in the Office of the President.

Alright then, i dont vote and do bitch because there is no realistic choices to vote on, so your "american way" is for me a bit of a contradiction... sort of.. Still, out of 318.9 mill people Trump is the only other realistic choice seams just a bit odd, but actually it would be quite interesting to see Trump as president..I assume anything from highly entertaining to hideous disgusting, or both!

(http://9953-presscdn-0-37.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/ck-700x457.jpg)


I asked before to name one thing the UK is good at. So far the only significant item on the list seems that London is Europe's financial centre.

Fish and Chips? Easy for EU to move banking to Frankfurt or Paris.

I would also like to inform debaters about the Nordic agreement started in 1952 which enables Nordic's to work, live study buy property etc in these countries:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Passport_Union (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Passport_Union)

London is a GLOBAL banking centre.   |O
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on July 05, 2016, 09:24:08 am
Trimmed/reorganised to highlight the key point which has evidently been missed; look in Brumby's original message for full history.
Quote from: Alex Nikitin
I've lived in the USSR half of my life, there people trying to leave the country were shot at or sent to labour camps - all for the common good. Now EU starts to smell that way  ;) .

While I neither agree or disagree with Alex's statement, I do appreciate the point he has made - and can see how he has formed this opinion.  You, however, have taken the concept being presented to the ridiculous extreme.  In my eyes at least, you have lost all credibility in this line of discussion.

For those who might wonder what I mean:
 Alex Nikitin is saying 'It seems to be getting warmer' and tggzzz has responded with 'Show me where are sitting on the surface of the sun with our backsides getting fried'.

Er. No. You've got that completely the wrong way round.

If you want to use that analogy, Nikitin compared sitting on the surface of the sun with it getting warmer in the EU. Nikitin mentioned people being shot/imprisoned. I objected to that ridiculous comparison!

In the USSR and satellites I know people that risked their lives to escape, and I personally saw (and have photos of) the killing zone on the "other" side of the Berlin Wall. As far as I am aware people are still risking their lives to get into the EU.

That's a hell of a difference.

If I have gotten that the wrong way around, then my apologies - but the impression I got was that the hierarchy of the EU was starting to show signs of getting possessive.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 05, 2016, 09:35:12 am
Trimmed/reorganised to highlight the key point which has evidently been missed; look in Brumby's original message for full history.
Quote from: Alex Nikitin
I've lived in the USSR half of my life, there people trying to leave the country were shot at or sent to labour camps - all for the common good. Now EU starts to smell that way  ;) .

While I neither agree or disagree with Alex's statement, I do appreciate the point he has made - and can see how he has formed this opinion.  You, however, have taken the concept being presented to the ridiculous extreme.  In my eyes at least, you have lost all credibility in this line of discussion.

For those who might wonder what I mean:
 Alex Nikitin is saying 'It seems to be getting warmer' and tggzzz has responded with 'Show me where are sitting on the surface of the sun with our backsides getting fried'.

Er. No. You've got that completely the wrong way round.

If you want to use that analogy, Nikitin compared sitting on the surface of the sun with it getting warmer in the EU. Nikitin mentioned people being shot/imprisoned. I objected to that ridiculous comparison!

In the USSR and satellites I know people that risked their lives to escape, and I personally saw (and have photos of) the killing zone on the "other" side of the Berlin Wall. As far as I am aware people are still risking their lives to get into the EU.

That's a hell of a difference.

If I have gotten that the wrong way around, then my apologies - but the impression I got was that the hierarchy of the EU was starting to show signs of getting possessive.

Hierarchies always become possessive, and the EU is no exception. There are many things that I would change in the EU.

Stupid question: should X leave the EU?
Useful questions: can the EU be improved? Is X better inside the EU or outside the EU?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: ProBang2 on July 05, 2016, 09:44:11 am

London is a GLOBAL banking centre.   |O

Until now, because it has provided access to the EU market.

It seems to go to Frankfurt: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36698382 (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36698382)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Alex Nikitin on July 05, 2016, 09:52:49 am
Trimmed/reorganised to highlight the key point which has evidently been missed; look in Brumby's original message for full history.
Quote from: Alex Nikitin
I've lived in the USSR half of my life, there people trying to leave the country were shot at or sent to labour camps - all for the common good. Now EU starts to smell that way  ;) .

While I neither agree or disagree with Alex's statement, I do appreciate the point he has made - and can see how he has formed this opinion.  You, however, have taken the concept being presented to the ridiculous extreme.  In my eyes at least, you have lost all credibility in this line of discussion.

For those who might wonder what I mean:
 Alex Nikitin is saying 'It seems to be getting warmer' and tggzzz has responded with 'Show me where are sitting on the surface of the sun with our backsides getting fried'.

Er. No. You've got that completely the wrong way round.

If you want to use that analogy, Nikitin compared sitting on the surface of the sun with it getting warmer in the EU. Nikitin mentioned people being shot/imprisoned. I objected to that ridiculous comparison!

In the USSR and satellites I know people that risked their lives to escape, and I personally saw (and have photos of) the killing zone on the "other" side of the Berlin Wall. As far as I am aware people are still risking their lives to get into the EU.

That's a hell of a difference.

As you've just quoted, I said only "starts to smell that way" , which is quite obviously very far from the full Soviet "paradise"  :) , so Brumby did understand my point correctly, and you've overreacted rather badly, sorry to say.

On the second point - everything is relative. Even the Soviet essentially jail-like care was and still is attractive to some people. The point I am trying to make is that the EU is making some steps into that very direction, where the top bureaucracy "knows better" what is good for the population and people have essentially no say in these matters. Also it looks like the trade and economics are hostages of socialist political ambitions in the EU, and that is also something to avoid, IMHO.

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Jeroen3 on July 05, 2016, 10:09:16 am
The main goal of the EU has implicitly changed to the creation of a United States of Europe.
Which is impossible due to the many language barriers and different cultures. Instead, for this to succeed you need several new generations. Since you need the children to get used to the idea. If you have a generation that is used to something, they won't object. Children now have never seen any other currency then Euro's. Therefore they don't know any better. Yet, ask any old guy and they'll want the [insert currency] back. Since "everything used to be better  >:(".

They are currently in the process of getting turkey to join. Which they are able to, if they wait set the join-date another ~15 years ahead.
Attempting to join Turkey right now will cause severe right wing protests. And possibly more exits. Turkey is even more culturally different than the core of the EU as-is.

Fast changes will always be opposed. Slow changes won't, people don't live long enough.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 05, 2016, 10:25:46 am
Trimmed/reorganised to highlight the key point which has evidently been missed; look in Brumby's original message for full history.
Quote from: Alex Nikitin
I've lived in the USSR half of my life, there people trying to leave the country were shot at or sent to labour camps - all for the common good. Now EU starts to smell that way  ;) .

While I neither agree or disagree with Alex's statement, I do appreciate the point he has made - and can see how he has formed this opinion.  You, however, have taken the concept being presented to the ridiculous extreme.  In my eyes at least, you have lost all credibility in this line of discussion.

For those who might wonder what I mean:
 Alex Nikitin is saying 'It seems to be getting warmer' and tggzzz has responded with 'Show me where are sitting on the surface of the sun with our backsides getting fried'.

Er. No. You've got that completely the wrong way round.

If you want to use that analogy, Nikitin compared sitting on the surface of the sun with it getting warmer in the EU. Nikitin mentioned people being shot/imprisoned. I objected to that ridiculous comparison!

In the USSR and satellites I know people that risked their lives to escape, and I personally saw (and have photos of) the killing zone on the "other" side of the Berlin Wall. As far as I am aware people are still risking their lives to get into the EU.

That's a hell of a difference.

As you've just quoted, I said only "starts to smell that way" , which is quite obviously very far from the full Soviet "paradise"  :) , so Brumby did understand my point correctly, and you've overreacted rather badly, sorry to say.

Your comparison is still ridiculous, and does a disservice to those that lived under those conditions in the USSR.

There's too much black propaganda on topics like this. Certainly Putin would like to do to the EU what we did to the USSR.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on July 05, 2016, 10:33:33 am

London is a GLOBAL banking centre.   |O

Until now, because it has provided access to the EU market.

It seems to go to Frankfurt: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36698382 (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36698382)

London was a global financial before the EU even existed.
I guess we'll see how Frankfurt gets on.  ;D
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Alex Nikitin on July 05, 2016, 11:02:45 am
Your comparison is still ridiculous, and does a disservice to those that lived under those conditions in the USSR.

Hmm, I am in a somewhat better position to judge that  ;) . Moreover, I know that my point of view is shared by many from the former USSR, with some of these people have suffered a lot more than me personally (i.e went through Soviet camps, jails and psychiatric clinics). You develop an allergy to this kind of things and as a result we are more sensitive to these "superstate" ambitions of the EU than many people here in the West. The UK though has just (hopefully) put some brakes to that bureaucratic gravy train.

There's too much black propaganda on topics like this. Certainly Putin would like to do to the EU what we did to the USSR.

Why? The current EU is very convenient for him. The Brexit came as an unpleasant surprise to Mr. Putler.

Cheers

Alex

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on July 05, 2016, 11:08:57 am


Hmm, any club where to join costs a pound and to leave - two pounds, smells just wrong to me. If EU officials consider ways to make the UK exit as difficult as possible (all for the common good of other members, obviously), that smells exactly as the Soviet type of politics. I sincerely hope that the EU would not use this kind of approach in practice, however we all will see what course will be taken soon enough.

Cheers

Alex

Leaving the club is free. There is no cost in submitting a leave.

You don't have the burdens and benifits of the club anymore after you left. That may be a benifit or a burden. But it is what the people of Brittain wanted.


And, of course, the EEC was very far from enticing the UK on a promise.   It took them the best part of ten years to let us join at all.  They thought we lacked commitment and would only impair their progress. Can't think why they thought that.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on July 05, 2016, 11:11:25 am
"What should be the reason to leave the EU ?"

You can easily construct a few scenarios under which one may wish to leave. Maybe they shared uks view on the EU and hoped to have better chance of reforming the EU with the UK in. Now UK is gone so less likely for the reform to materialize, .....

Not that it is true but it could be true.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 05, 2016, 11:27:10 am
You develop an allergy to this kind of things and as a result we are more sensitive to these "superstate" ambitions of the EU than many people here in the West. The UK though has just (hopefully) put some brakes to that bureaucratic gravy train.

It is possible to be oversensitive.

The brakes certainly have been put on that gravy train. Some people and institutions have, deservedly, been poked in the eye with a stick. Unfortunately that will probably cause everybody else in the UK to have a stick inserted in their anus and out their mouth. The disaffected poor will be the worst to suffer - and that's bad for democracy.

Is that provable? Not yet, but it is already moving in that direction. Some people have had their savings frozen and are unable to withdraw their money. That kind of thing will be repeated over the next few years :(
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Alex Nikitin on July 05, 2016, 11:57:43 am
You develop an allergy to this kind of things and as a result we are more sensitive to these "superstate" ambitions of the EU than many people here in the West. The UK though has just (hopefully) put some brakes to that bureaucratic gravy train.

It is possible to be oversensitive.

The brakes certainly have been put on that gravy train. Some people and institutions have, deservedly, been poked in the eye with a stick. Unfortunately that will probably cause everybody else in the UK to have a stick inserted in their anus and out their mouth. The disaffected poor will be the worst to suffer - and that's bad for democracy.

Is that provable? Not yet, but it is already moving in that direction. Some people have had their savings frozen and are unable to withdraw their money. That kind of thing will be repeated over the next few years :(

And you say that I am oversensitive  :o . This kind of scaremongering is a typical socialist reaction, reaction of a person who thinks that everything should be given to him on a plate from above (from the EU bureaucrats, or from the Politburo  :) ) . In reality we make our prosperity, and any change should be looked at not as an impeding doom - but as an opportunity, a challenge. The Brexit shows that the UK still has that spirit. "The disaffected poor" did vote Leave in their majority, according to the results, by the way.

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: DK6400Brian on July 05, 2016, 12:17:51 pm
I can tell you Alex, that there's support in Denmark to leave as well.
Before our referendum in 1986 the politicians had the nerve to calm people down by saying: "The Union is dead as a stone".

With Brexit you're going to make trade deals with whoever you want. Depositing that ability in Bruxelles for the politicians there, doesn't seem to be the best solution.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 05, 2016, 12:45:29 pm
I can tell you Alex, that there's support in Denmark to leave as well.
Of course there is but don't forget that while the 1992 Maastricht referendum was 49.3% for and 50.7% against the treaty, the 1993 referendum with the opt-outs was 56.7% for and 43.3% against. And while a party or two are currently making some noise, they only hold 37+14=51 of the 179 seats in parliament.

Before our referendum in 1986 the politicians had the nerve to calm people down by saying: "The Union is dead as a stone".
I chose to think of Mr. Schlüter's statement as a bad joke.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 05, 2016, 12:55:59 pm
the 1993 referendum with the opt-outs was 56.7% for and 43.3% against.

In addition to acceding the Maastricht treaty with some opt-outs we got this:

https://youtu.be/Qv1kd1u3gsI?t=101 (https://youtu.be/Qv1kd1u3gsI?t=101)

(http://multimedia.pol.dk/archive/00751/A-n_rrebro_18-05-20_751471a.jpg)


Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on July 05, 2016, 01:02:02 pm
"and any change should be looked at not as an impeding doom - but as an opportunity, a challenge. "

Wasn't there this saying that the Chinese phrase for "crisis" consists of the words "risk" and "opportunity".

Or to borrow from one of my hero's, " don't ever let a crisis go to waste".

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on July 05, 2016, 01:22:18 pm
Is it me - or am I noticing an increasing mention of the 'Leave' sentiment (or at least re-evaluating their membership) from other member states of the EU on this thread?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on July 05, 2016, 01:28:11 pm
When you want to make exact measurement you need a Fluke.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on July 05, 2016, 01:40:33 pm
Is it me - or am I noticing an increasing mention of the 'Leave' sentiment (or at least re-evaluating their membership) from other member states of the EU on this thread?
For now all other member EU states are tourists, watching to see how it will forego the UK in the near future.
Today the GBP again fell against the USD and EUR which means nothing good to watch.
The biggest problem is that some fractions like extreme right in France with mrs Lepen and the sorts are now shouting the loudest and getting media attention, which might seem that other countries are now thinking of leaving. But when 2% of a country shouts that, it does not mean that the country will do it, or even will think about doing it  ;)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 05, 2016, 01:43:37 pm
You develop an allergy to this kind of things and as a result we are more sensitive to these "superstate" ambitions of the EU than many people here in the West. The UK though has just (hopefully) put some brakes to that bureaucratic gravy train.

It is possible to be oversensitive.

The brakes certainly have been put on that gravy train. Some people and institutions have, deservedly, been poked in the eye with a stick. Unfortunately that will probably cause everybody else in the UK to have a stick inserted in their anus and out their mouth. The disaffected poor will be the worst to suffer - and that's bad for democracy.

Is that provable? Not yet, but it is already moving in that direction. Some people have had their savings frozen and are unable to withdraw their money. That kind of thing will be repeated over the next few years :(

And you say that I am oversensitive  :o . This kind of scaremongering is a typical socialist reaction, reaction of a person who thinks that everything should be given to him on a plate from above (from the EU bureaucrats, or from the Politburo  :) ) . In reality we make our prosperity, and any change should be looked at not as an impeding doom - but as an opportunity, a challenge. The Brexit shows that the UK still has that spirit. "The disaffected poor" did vote Leave in their majority, according to the results, by the way.

I can assure you that you have no idea of my politics!

I am well aware of how the disaffected poor voted, and why. I have a lot of sympathy with their motivation. Unfortunately they were "misled", according to the leading leave campaigners only hours after the results were announced. When they realise how they've been screwed by politicians and the media, the consequences will be unpredictable and unpleasant.

BTW, I'm probably "closer" to Putin than you. My degrees-of-separation is me->relative->wife->mother->Putin. The wife and mother refuse to contemplate that US astronauts walked on the moon, since it was self-evidently a capitalist conspiracy of lies!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 05, 2016, 01:45:03 pm
Is it me - or am I noticing an increasing mention of the 'Leave' sentiment (or at least re-evaluating their membership) from other member states of the EU on this thread?
You probably are.

The sole significance of that is that it is a reflection of why the EU must crucify the UK.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on July 05, 2016, 01:46:55 pm
My biggest fear is he indeed gets elected, and then does nothing he promised, and starts imitating Obama/Hillary/Bush(1).
And goes to Saudi Arabia to talk about the human rights institute, visits Wallstreet and does some expensive speeches, and has meetings with hollande/merkel/juncker about more bureaucracy, and keeps on injecting money in the war Bush/Obama(1) started.

(1) Delete as appropriate.

But that is the perfect punishment for Americans no matter whom they voted for, let them ruin themselves, its perfect, then it will perhaps end in civil war part 2 and then from the ashes will rise the creation of States of America, they can create their own version of the Nordic agreement and become civilized again? They do vote on Trump because they are disappointed with politicians, just as Russians/Brits/Spanish/Greeks have done, a telling story they made it all by themselves.  Putin will laugh his pants off! :-DMM........Until Moscow Majdan eventually occur! :scared:

Busch mocked us french, we gave them liberty and they gave us "freedom fries"! We will never forget that insult!(http://foodmuseum.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/freedomfriesdaveycartoon_1.jpg)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: daqq on July 05, 2016, 01:59:41 pm
Quote
Is it me - or am I noticing an increasing mention of the 'Leave' sentiment (or at least re-evaluating their membership) from other member states of the EU on this thread?
It's not really due to the GB decision to leave - basically lots of people were skeptical about some EU decisions before, then came the whole migrant/refugee clusterfuck, which seriously pissed everyone. The EU would be a great project, destroyed by idiotic decisions that most certainly do NOT serve the people of the EU.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on July 05, 2016, 04:17:08 pm

London is a GLOBAL banking centre.   |O

Until now, because it has provided access to the EU market.

It seems to go to Frankfurt: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36698382 (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36698382)

In your dreams !!
Read my lips. London was a global financial centre before the EU existed !!  |O
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on July 05, 2016, 04:58:50 pm

London is a GLOBAL banking centre.   |O

Until now, because it has provided access to the EU market.

It seems to go to Frankfurt: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36698382 (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36698382)


In your dreams !!
Read my lips. London was a global financial centre before the EU existed !!  |O

Wake Up, London was a global as you said ,and when leave the europe will let to be a global financial centre.

The british have to accept that already aren't the lords of world as the spanish let to be the empire where never set the sun . :-DD :-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on July 05, 2016, 05:11:27 pm
Busch mocked us french, we gave them liberty and they gave us "freedom fries"! We will never forget that insult

I think there was a story behind the Freedom Fries thing.  Right or wrong you support your allies.  That's why the US-UK relationship is special (in my mind).  The UK always has our back (same with Australia and New Zealand).  The only 3 countries on the planet that we can count on.

Were it not for the US, you would be speaking German right now.  Don't forget it!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on July 05, 2016, 05:15:36 pm
We probably would speak Russian  ;)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on July 05, 2016, 05:26:37 pm

London is a GLOBAL banking centre.   |O

Until now, because it has provided access to the EU market.

It seems to go to Frankfurt: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36698382 (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36698382)


In your dreams !!
Read my lips. London was a global financial centre before the EU existed !!  |O

Wake Up, London was a global as you said ,and when leave the europe will let to be a global financial centre.

The british have to accept that already aren't the lords of world as the spanish let to be the empire where never set the sun . :-DD :-DD

Three British managers declare a "corralito " before the massive withdrawal of money from investors

http://www.elmundo.es/economia/2016/07/05/577bd65946163f5f508b45a7.html (http://www.elmundo.es/economia/2016/07/05/577bd65946163f5f508b45a7.html)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on July 05, 2016, 05:43:31 pm
We probably would speak Russian  ;)

You may yet!  The EU has allowed Germany to accomplish through association what it couldn't accomplish through force of arms.  With Brexit, they now control most of Europe.  There is no credible counter-balance after the UK leaves.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 05, 2016, 05:53:48 pm
Were it not for the US, you would be speaking German right now.  Don't forget it!
The same can be said about the USSR
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 05, 2016, 05:58:52 pm
£1 = $1.3 = €1.2
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on July 05, 2016, 06:39:55 pm
£1 = $1.3 = €1.2
A bit lower on the euro - £1 = €1.18 at the moment

€1.10 has been forecast
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on July 05, 2016, 06:49:32 pm
Is it me - or am I noticing an increasing mention of the 'Leave' sentiment (or at least re-evaluating their membership) from other member states of the EU on this thread?
For now all other member EU states are tourists, watching to see how it will forego the UK in the near future.
Today the GBP again fell against the USD and EUR which means nothing good to watch.
The biggest problem is that some fractions like extreme right in France with mrs Lepen and the sorts are now shouting the loudest and getting media attention, which might seem that other countries are now thinking of leaving. But when 2% of a country shouts that, it does not mean that the country will do it, or even will think about doing it  ;)

And when I looked earlier today the Euro also fell against the USD.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on July 05, 2016, 07:04:24 pm
Contrary to popular belief turmoil in the currency markets is the best thing ever for speculators.
This is quite normal.
It takes a we while for the dust to settle.  ;D
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on July 05, 2016, 07:11:42 pm
FFS.

The big financial services dudes are not going to pack up and leave the City of London, exactly the same as they didn't when we chose to not join the Eurozone. 

It really seems like there are a lot of Remainers who are so bitter that would actually prefer the UK to go down the pan, rather than succeed, just so the can give it an "I told you so".  Selfish, small-minded, sore-losers.

The UK is leaving the EU.  Get used to it, and get on with it.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 05, 2016, 07:24:29 pm
The GBP has dropped -16.5% over the last year, currently lowest value in 31 years and falling...

FFS.

The big financial services dudes are not going to pack up and leave the City of London, exactly the same as they didn't when we chose to not join the Eurozone. 

It really seems like there are a lot of Remainers who are so bitter that would actually prefer the UK to go down the pan, rather than succeed, just so the can give it an "I told you so".  Selfish, small-minded, sore-losers.

The UK is leaving the EU.  Get used to it, and get on with it.
You got that backwards. We are watching in horror while the the UK brexiters, in complete denial, keep driving the country towards the cliff. Doesn't matter what it will cost as long as you get your way. So who's selfish?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on July 05, 2016, 07:32:49 pm
The GBP has dropped -16.5% over the last year, currently lowest value in 31 years and falling...

FFS.

The big financial services dudes are not going to pack up and leave the City of London, exactly the same as they didn't when we chose to not join the Eurozone. 

It really seems like there are a lot of Remainers who are so bitter that would actually prefer the UK to go down the pan, rather than succeed, just so the can give it an "I told you so".  Selfish, small-minded, sore-losers.

The UK is leaving the EU.  Get used to it, and get on with it.
You got that backwards. We are watching in horror while the the UK brexiters, in complete denial, keep driving the country towards the cliff. Doesn't matter what it will cost as long as you get your way. So who's selfish?

It's not "my way", it's the way that majority of voters chose.  It's called democracy.  You will miss it when it's gone.....
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: mtdoc on July 05, 2016, 07:39:27 pm
I'll just leave this here:

The Panic Will Start With Property (https://beforethecollapse.com/2016/06/27/the-panic-will-start-with-property/)

Quote
This tragedy has several stages. It began with hubris, “The masses won’t understand how we’ve shafted them” with the bank bailouts. Then David Cameron sets the stage for stupidity, “Let’s give the peasants a chance to upset our apple cart!” Followed by madness shouting, “We’ll have full access to the single market, outside the jurisdiction of the European Court, no payments to Brussels AND control of immigration!” It appears the mainstream still cling to denial. Let me explain why our beloved political mainstream and it’s shoddy EU project has lost it’s appeal. It’s because the mainstream is not moderate – and most Britons are moderate. There are real extremists in the political mainstream – they have power and they have abused it mightily.

Allowing the bankers to devastate the public accounts with bailouts and thereafter leaving these culprits completely unscathed was an extremist choice. Engineering the financial suffocation of the entire Greek population so as to crush a popular vote was an extremist choice. Removing elected prime ministers in Italy and Greece and replacing them with unelected functionaries was an extremist choice. Allowing over a million migrants in to Europe was an extremist choice. Wage suppression in Ireland was an extremist choice. Permitting Germany’s excessive trade surpluses whilst punishing everyone else’s budget deficits was an extremist choice. Pension cuts were an extremist choice. Mass unemployment was an extremist choice.

The reason these catastrophic choices were made was precisely because mainstream parties have colluded to keep these barbaric policies safe from electoral retribution by making them effectively bi-partisan or sealed off behind a treaty wall. The normal process whereby democracy flushes out bad policy (and bad policymakers) has been terminated. The mainstream deliberately locked the voter out.

“But all of this is just the price of globalisation,” sigh the well shod insiders. The masses were disrobed of agency to combat the ‘manifest destiny’ of the EU and globalisation. Now the insiders stand aside and watch in horror. The populists may have been made by the mainstream – but they clearly have no agency to unmake them now.…

Those hoping for a rational and indifferent divorce must have looked on in horror at the tragedy unfolding in the EU parliament – scenes of gloating and ridicule. There shall be no adolescent stage in this tragedy. Laughter that sounded so childish was baptized by a kiss of death. We have witnessed attitudes harden, “The City, which thanks to the EU, was able to handle clearing operations for the eurozone, will not be able to do them,” the French President said. “It can serve as an example for those who seek the end of Europe?.?.?.?It can serve as a lesson.” Ambitious people pursue opportunity rather than a place in the status qou. The talent in The City shall have no qualms in moving if income is elsewhere. You can write a contract under English law in Frankfurt or Paris just as well as in London. The immediate goal, it would seem, is to destroy the UK.

So Boris ‘the dog that caught the car’ scampers away. This is now Eastenders on acid … as project fear becomes project reality. And now, the stage is being prepared for the next act, will prices in the property market slump and crater the UK’s financial systems? The cracks have already begun to appear, two UK real estate funds — Aviva and Standard Life — have just halted redemptions as they were running out of cash due to large withdrawal demands. Perhaps regulators should have wondered how an open-ended fund — whereby retail investors can demand their money back at short notice — could work with assets like property that take much time to sell. And so the tragedy unfolds … though perhaps the politicians on the continent, that lust after revenge should first ask themselves, “Why did Britons vote to leave and can the panic be contained?”
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 05, 2016, 07:56:58 pm
The EU has allowed Germany to accomplish through association what it couldn't accomplish through force of arms.
Last time I checked the Federal Republic was still a healthy, democratic country.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on July 05, 2016, 07:59:53 pm
I'll just leave this here:

The Panic Will Start With Property (https://beforethecollapse.com/2016/06/27/the-panic-will-start-with-property/)

Quote
This tragedy has several stages. It began with hubris, “The masses won’t understand how we’ve shafted them” with the bank bailouts. Then David Cameron sets the stage for stupidity, “Let’s give the peasants a chance to upset our apple cart!” Followed by madness shouting, “We’ll have full access to the single market, outside the jurisdiction of the European Court, no payments to Brussels AND control of immigration!” It appears the mainstream still cling to denial. Let me explain why our beloved political mainstream and it’s shoddy EU project has lost it’s appeal. It’s because the mainstream is not moderate – and most Britons are moderate. There are real extremists in the political mainstream – they have power and they have abused it mightily.

Allowing the bankers to devastate the public accounts with bailouts and thereafter leaving these culprits completely unscathed was an extremist choice. Engineering the financial suffocation of the entire Greek population so as to crush a popular vote was an extremist choice. Removing elected prime ministers in Italy and Greece and replacing them with unelected functionaries was an extremist choice. Allowing over a million migrants in to Europe was an extremist choice. Wage suppression in Ireland was an extremist choice. Permitting Germany’s excessive trade surpluses whilst punishing everyone else’s budget deficits was an extremist choice. Pension cuts were an extremist choice. Mass unemployment was an extremist choice.

The reason these catastrophic choices were made was precisely because mainstream parties have colluded to keep these barbaric policies safe from electoral retribution by making them effectively bi-partisan or sealed off behind a treaty wall. The normal process whereby democracy flushes out bad policy (and bad policymakers) has been terminated. The mainstream deliberately locked the voter out.

“But all of this is just the price of globalisation,” sigh the well shod insiders. The masses were disrobed of agency to combat the ‘manifest destiny’ of the EU and globalisation. Now the insiders stand aside and watch in horror. The populists may have been made by the mainstream – but they clearly have no agency to unmake them now.…

Those hoping for a rational and indifferent divorce must have looked on in horror at the tragedy unfolding in the EU parliament – scenes of gloating and ridicule. There shall be no adolescent stage in this tragedy. Laughter that sounded so childish was baptized by a kiss of death. We have witnessed attitudes harden, “The City, which thanks to the EU, was able to handle clearing operations for the eurozone, will not be able to do them,” the French President said. “It can serve as an example for those who seek the end of Europe?.?.?.?It can serve as a lesson.” Ambitious people pursue opportunity rather than a place in the status qou. The talent in The City shall have no qualms in moving if income is elsewhere. You can write a contract under English law in Frankfurt or Paris just as well as in London. The immediate goal, it would seem, is to destroy the UK.

So Boris ‘the dog that caught the car’ scampers away. This is now Eastenders on acid … as project fear becomes project reality. And now, the stage is being prepared for the next act, will prices in the property market slump and crater the UK’s financial systems? The cracks have already begun to appear, two UK real estate funds — Aviva and Standard Life — have just halted redemptions as they were running out of cash due to large withdrawal demands. Perhaps regulators should have wondered how an open-ended fund — whereby retail investors can demand their money back at short notice — could work with assets like property that take much time to sell. And so the tragedy unfolds … though perhaps the politicians on the continent, that lust after revenge should first ask themselves, “Why did Britons vote to leave and can the panic be contained?”

Exactly !! ,people panic.
It's a property fund assets of that type take a while to liquidate.
I don't know if the arrangements mean that investors actually lose their capitol.
The responsible thing to do is to protect all the investors by calling a halt to the panic withdrawals.

Are you related to Victor Meldrew ?   :D
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: mtdoc on July 05, 2016, 08:08:17 pm
The responsible thing to do is to protect all the investors by calling a halt to the panic withdrawals.

I hope that isn't your take away message from the essay. If so, I think you've missed the point.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on July 05, 2016, 08:25:35 pm
@mtdoc
I didn't miss any point.
The arguments given apply to EVERY western economy including the USA.
They completely ignore domestic political reality.
The whole capitalist system has been playing the same game.
They have all been printing money and lying to their citizens.
What's actually changed in the financial systems since the Banking/Insurance  fiasco ?
I actually saw it coming years before it was a no brainer.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: mtdoc on July 05, 2016, 08:40:14 pm
@mtdoc
I didn't miss any point.
  :-+

Quote
The whole capitalist system neoliberal elites - financiers and politicians on the "right" and the "left" - have been playing the same game.
They have all been printing money and lying to their citizens.

There, fixed it for you.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on July 05, 2016, 10:13:31 pm
@mtdoc
I didn't miss any point.
The arguments given apply to EVERY western economy including the USA.
They completely ignore domestic political reality.
The whole ******** system has been playing the same game.
They have all been printing money and lying to their citizens.
What's actually changed in the financial systems since the Banking/Insurance  fiasco ?
I actually saw it coming years before it was a no brainer.
Indeed, I saw it coming too, nobody needed a master in economics to see it.
and like it's said, it will strike again, a bit harder this time, and this is what will happen:

It really seems like there are a lot of Remainers who are so bitter that would actually prefer the UK to go down the pan, rather than succeed, just so the can give it an "I told you so".  Selfish, small-minded, sore-losers.
It will go down, just like the rest that went down last time, and they will blame the accumulated problems from the last +20 years on Brexit.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 05, 2016, 10:53:13 pm
It will go down, just like the rest that went down last time, and they will blame the accumulated problems from the last +20 years on Brexit.
Kind of like how English politicians/tabloids have been blaming their accumulated problems from the last +20 years on EU and immigrants?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on July 05, 2016, 11:00:14 pm
@mtdoc
I didn't miss any point.
  :-+

Quote
The whole capitalist system neoliberal elites - financiers and politicians on the "right" and the "left" - have been playing the same game.
They have all been printing money and lying to their citizens.

There, fixed it for you.

No you didn't fix it for me.
You "fixed it" in order to boost you own ego.
Smart arse   :-+
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on July 05, 2016, 11:56:19 pm
That's why the US-UK relationship is special (in my mind). 

Yet the English once burned down the withehouse!

Quote
The UK always has our back (same with Australia and New Zealand).  The only 3 countries on the planet that we can count on.
So you dont trust the Canadians? They also have the same queen as the English.

Quote
Were it not for the US, you would be speaking German right now.  Don't forget it!

If you had read Europas history (you earlier mentioned you was not interested in history) you would have known that certain parts of Scandinavia always have been speaking German, its kind of a tradition among the Germanic languages. You are also speaking German you are just not aware of it! :)

Besides a traditional american misconception, actually Soviet liberated Europe!...Sort of.....well, one totalitarian idea for another...same Marx and Engels crap.

Quote
There is no credible counter-balance after the UK leaves.
NATO!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: mtdoc on July 06, 2016, 01:26:00 am
@mtdoc
I didn't miss any point.
  :-+

Quote
The whole capitalist system neoliberal elites - financiers and politicians on the "right" and the "left" - have been playing the same game.
They have all been printing money and lying to their citizens.

There, fixed it for you.

No you didn't fix it for me.
You "fixed it" in order to boost you own ego.
Smart arse   :-+

Just making an important distinction. The problem is not capitalism per say. It's a particular brand of capitalism -as in the Neoliberal -globalist version that's dominated the world for the past 3 decades that's the problem.

My ego is big enough already, thank you very much.. ;D
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on July 06, 2016, 06:22:57 am
@mtdoc
It's been going on for a lot longer than that.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rch on July 06, 2016, 08:35:59 am
And there isn't really a 'nice' kind of capitalism!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 06, 2016, 10:03:55 am
So CETA is not going to be bulldozed through by the commission after all, after pressure by France and Germany supposedly, and not all that surprising. What was surprising is that the commission declared they would just before the brexit referendum. I also find Obama's comment that 'the UK will be at the back of the queue' somewhat disingenuous. Makes one wonder.

Quote from: European Commission
Although from a strict legal standpoint, the Commission considers this agreement to fall under exclusive EU competence, Commissioner Malmström explained that the Commission has decided to propose CETA for signature as a mixed agreement which requires the consent of the European Parliament, and of all Member States through the relevant national ratification procedures. She called upon Member States who have all asked for this agreement and welcomed it, to show leadership by defending it in their parliaments and with citizens.
http://ec.europa.eu/news/2016/07/20160705_2_en.htm (http://ec.europa.eu/news/2016/07/20160705_2_en.htm)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on July 06, 2016, 12:53:45 pm
And there isn't really a 'nice' kind of capitalism!

Limiting of personal wealth to 1 million dollar as to put a wet cloth on wealth inequality? (Building car factories etc requires more i know, but anyway?)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on July 06, 2016, 03:07:21 pm
The UK always has our back (same with Australia and New Zealand).  The only 3 countries on the planet that we can count on.
So you dont trust the Canadians? They also have the same queen as the English.

I had quite forgotten about the Canadians.  I should add them to the list.

Quote

Quote
Were it not for the US, you would be speaking German right now.  Don't forget it!

If you had read Europas history (you earlier mentioned you was not interested in history) you would have known that certain parts of Scandinavia always have been speaking German, its kind of a tradition among the Germanic languages. You are also speaking German you are just not aware of it! :)

It's been a long time since I was over there but I thought I noticed a difference between French and German.  And  French is the specific language I was talking about.  Yes, I realize that elements of the German language, indeed all languages, spill over into English.

I don't think I ever said anything about 'history'.  It's true that it is not a subject I give a rat's patoot about but my country wasn't decimated in two world wars although we did sustain massive casualties.  And, no, Russia had nothing to do with the western edge of Europe during WW II.  And the parts that they 'liberated' seem to have been swept up into their orbit.  Didn't they occupy east Germany for a while?  Seems like I read something about that in the papers.  Or maybe I was made aware of that when I was stationed in Germany in '66-'67.

Quote
Besides a traditional american misconception, actually Soviet liberated Europe!...Sort of.....well, one totalitarian idea for another...same Marx and Engels crap.

Quote
There is no credible counter-balance after the UK leaves.
NATO!

The UK is the big European force in NATO.  If the separation gets ugly, how much effort do you expect them to expend defending Europe?  By the time Parliament gets done debating, the war will be over. The US is getting weary of war, I wouldn't count on us either.  It concerns me that we are placing equipment (and troops?) in eastern Europe.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on July 06, 2016, 04:01:51 pm
The UK is the big European force in NATO.  If the separation gets ugly, how much effort do you expect them to expend defending Europe?  By the time Parliament gets done debating, the war will be over. The US is getting weary of war, I wouldn't count on us either.  It concerns me that we are placing equipment (and troops?) in eastern Europe.
Do you really think the UK is the only European country with an army?  :palm: BTW Did you read the news today about the report about the UK's involvement in the war in Iraq and how it was completely unjustified?

Besides that who is going to invade Europe? That would be completely stupid because it will affect trade and thus injure the economy severely (Russia really isn't doing well because of the trade embargo). The biggest problem we currently have world wide are religious fanatics and civilian uprisings. Actually I can't really name two (or more) countries which are actively at war.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 06, 2016, 04:06:10 pm
My ego is big enough already, thank you very much.. ;D

That's a good start. Next challenge is to make it more justified and less needy.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Jeroen3 on July 06, 2016, 04:24:17 pm
Do you really think the UK is the only European country with an army?
Well, we are renting tanks from Germany, and we have a funding issues that live ammo practice is skipper...
Quote
Actually I can't really name two (or more) countries which are actively at war.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 06, 2016, 04:35:25 pm
Limiting of personal wealth to 1 million dollar as to put a wet cloth on wealth inequality? (Building car factories etc requires more i know, but anyway?)

Let me guess, you have less than 1 million dollar.  ;-)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on July 06, 2016, 04:39:27 pm
Limiting of personal wealth to 1 million dollar as to put a wet cloth on wealth inequality? (Building car factories etc requires more i know, but anyway?)
Let me guess, you have less than 1 million dollar.  ;-)
To the contrary but all is deposited in Panama accounts.. Are you still trying to comprehend the essence of George Orwell or do we have to explain that for the third time? ;-)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: mtdoc on July 06, 2016, 04:43:18 pm
My ego is big enough already, thank you very much.. ;D

That's a good start. Next challenge is to make it more justified and less needy.

Irony.

"Justify" and "need" are ego.

In my view, one can never have too much knowledge or too
little ego. These are both lifelong projects.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tomorokoshi on July 06, 2016, 05:03:11 pm
I bet 20 bucks the Brexit won't actually happen  ;D

How do you mean? Australian or American?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 06, 2016, 07:39:37 pm
In my view, one can never have too much knowledge or too
little ego. These are both lifelong projects.
Those are honourable goals. :-+
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on July 06, 2016, 09:07:06 pm
I bet 20 bucks the Brexit won't actually happen  ;D
How do you mean? Australian or American?
Definitely not pounds  :-DD :-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 06, 2016, 09:16:41 pm
I bet 20 bucks the Brexit won't actually happen  ;D
How do you mean? Australian or American?
Definitely not pounds  :-DD :-DD

EUR < GBP

https://www.google.com/search?q=1+eur+in+gbp (https://www.google.com/search?q=1+eur+in+gbp)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 06, 2016, 09:53:02 pm
I don't know what everyone is bashing the pound. Its been much worse, even now it still worth more then a euro. Before the vote it was on a mianly downward trajectory anyway.
Yup, it's been worse: 31 years ago! It was going downwards before the vote because people anticipated the outcome.
See if you can tell when the referendum was? ;D
:P
The Canadian dollar has also dropped because of the Brexit:
(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/4460498/original.jpg)

This is the correct graph:
(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/4460500/original.jpg)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 06, 2016, 10:06:44 pm
I bet 20 bucks the Brexit won't actually happen  ;D
How do you mean? Australian or American?
Definitely not pounds  :-DD :-DD

EUR < GBP

https://www.google.com/search?q=1+eur+in+gbp (https://www.google.com/search?q=1+eur+in+gbp)
The euro also dropped a little bit, about 2% compared to the pound 15% drop. That is: it might no longer be in a short while.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on July 06, 2016, 10:18:07 pm
I haven't seen many politicians talking about this.

The remain camp is absolutely right about one thing: the vote to leave is irrational and against the voters self interests. In the long run. Being able to trade freely with others is always welfare enhancing.

However, the vote to leave is more of a protest vote: it is a vote against status quo, against a political class that is totally divorced from the rest of the people that it is supposed to serve, against the slow trend of disappearing middle class, against free benefits and a welfare state whose costs are overwhelming and explodingly so.

I hope the UK folks can find a leader that can guide them forward.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 06, 2016, 11:27:47 pm
However, the vote to leave is more of a protest vote: it is a vote against status quo, against a political class that is totally divorced from the rest of the people that it is supposed to serve, against the slow trend of disappearing middle class, against free benefits and a welfare state whose costs are overwhelming and explodingly so.

The first part of that is pretty accurate. The latter part is standard neocon propaganda.

A real problem will arise when the turkeys (that did vote for Christmas) realise the claimed Brexit benefits are illusory and the unstated disadvantages hit them hard - and that the politicians aren't able to fix it. That's bad for democracy, which segues into...

Quote
I hope the UK folks can find a leader that can guide them forward.

The folks in the Weimar Republic did :( And that kind of "solution" isn't inconceivable here.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Stonent on July 07, 2016, 12:11:01 am
I haven't seen many politicians talking about this.

The remain camp is absolutely right about one thing: the vote to leave is irrational and against the voters self interests. In the long run. Being able to trade freely with others is always welfare enhancing.

However, the vote to leave is more of a protest vote: it is a vote against status quo, against a political class that is totally divorced from the rest of the people that it is supposed to serve, against the slow trend of disappearing middle class, against free benefits and a welfare state whose costs are overwhelming and explodingly so.

I hope the UK folks can find a leader that can guide them forward.

You can always set up free trade deals without having to financially support countries that can't seem to get their accounts in order.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on July 07, 2016, 12:13:15 am
Let me ask one simple question:

Did at any point in time was it stated that a simple majority of those who voted would result in an immutable obligation upon the UK government to exit the EU?

As far as I heard till now, the british referendum isn't binding, but a major politician(s)/party(s) (cameron?) promised he will treat is as binding.
But of course, "democracy" delivers many possibilities to put the people's will aside.

There has always been the possibility to Brexit, even if only 20% of the population wanted it.
Completely unthinkable, of course, witch shows in this case that the political class and bureaucracy will always only tend to more politics and more bureaucracy.

This is pretty much what I expected - and gives a clear reason for Cameron bailing out ASAP.  He didn't want to 'Leave' and when the referendum went the wrong way, he abdicated his position and took the obligation with him.




Let me ask one simple question:

Did at any point in time was it stated that a simple majority of those who voted would result in an immutable obligation upon the UK government to exit the EU?

Yes.

Cheers

Alex

Where can I find this?

Anybody?

(Or did I miss it?)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 07, 2016, 12:14:50 am
The euro also dropped a little bit, about 2% compared to the pound 15% drop. That is: it might no longer be in a short while.

This is not even a peep in history scale . Compare with surrendering the sovereignty of a nation.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on July 07, 2016, 12:15:34 am
I haven't seen many politicians talking about this.

The remain camp is absolutely right about one thing: the vote to leave is irrational and against the voters self interests. In the long run. Being able to trade freely with others is always welfare enhancing.

However, the vote to leave is more of a protest vote: it is a vote against status quo, against a political class that is totally divorced from the rest of the people that it is supposed to serve, against the slow trend of disappearing middle class, against free benefits and a welfare state whose costs are overwhelming and explodingly so.

I hope the UK folks can find a leader that can guide them forward.

You can always set up free trade deals without having to financially support countries that can't seem to get their accounts in order.

I would have thought that would be a preferred option.  Limit the deal to trade and stay out of the minefield of internal fiscal policy of a trading partner.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 07, 2016, 12:31:38 am
Compare with surrendering the sovereignty of a nation.

What does, or might, "sovereignty" mean in practice?

The ability to defend its citizens/subjects against external aggressors sounds like a good starting point. But if the Argentinians become argie again and re-invade the Falklands, we will have to beg the French to lend us their aircraft carrier. Not much sovereignty there :(

The ability to keep the electricity flowing is another good starting point. But we are currently begging the French to build a vitally needed nuke reactor, and the Chinese to lend us the money to pay for it. Not much sovereignty there :(

And there are many other similar examples which indicate that sovereignty is an outdated concept w.r.t. the UK and many other countries.

So it sounds like "sovereignty" is a feature not a benefit - and that its loss has nothing to do with the EU.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 07, 2016, 12:35:27 am
I haven't seen many politicians talking about this.

The remain camp is absolutely right about one thing: the vote to leave is irrational and against the voters self interests. In the long run. Being able to trade freely with others is always welfare enhancing.

However, the vote to leave is more of a protest vote: it is a vote against status quo, against a political class that is totally divorced from the rest of the people that it is supposed to serve, against the slow trend of disappearing middle class, against free benefits and a welfare state whose costs are overwhelming and explodingly so.

I hope the UK folks can find a leader that can guide them forward.

You can always set up free trade deals without having to financially support countries that can't seem to get their accounts in order.

You seem to be missing two essential details
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 07, 2016, 12:37:26 am
Let me ask one simple question:

Did at any point in time was it stated that a simple majority of those who voted would result in an immutable obligation upon the UK government to exit the EU?

Yes.

Ignorant nonsense. The referendum is "advisory", to use the official term.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on July 07, 2016, 01:57:38 am
  • trade deals .... will be tied to the free movement of labour

I don't see how that needs to be.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on July 07, 2016, 02:03:51 am
What does, or might, "sovereignty" mean in practice?

That the highest court that can rule on UK matters is in the UK, with UK appointed judges.

That the highest level of government in the UK is the UK parliament.

That the UK can choose who may or may not come to live / work in the UK.


It's quite simple really.   :palm:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on July 07, 2016, 02:05:26 am
This is by far the most sensible assessment of Brexit.  As one would expect from the best rappers that Wales has ever produced!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9_EhmfxHys (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9_EhmfxHys)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: IanB on July 07, 2016, 02:16:59 am
  • trade deals .... will be tied to the free movement of labour

I don't see how that needs to be.

It's how a single market works. The business interests lobbying for EU integration want a larger market without trade barriers in which to sell their products, and they want a bigger labour market without migration barriers in which to hire their workers. Since labour costs are the single biggest cost for any business, the free movement of labour is critical to the value of a trade deal. One without the other is only half a deal.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on July 07, 2016, 03:56:49 am
  • trade deals .... will be tied to the free movement of labour

I don't see how that needs to be.

It's how a single market works. The business interests lobbying for EU integration want a larger market without trade barriers in which to sell their products, and they want a bigger labour market without migration barriers in which to hire their workers. Since labour costs are the single biggest cost for any business, the free movement of labour is critical to the value of a trade deal. One without the other is only half a deal.

It seems to me that that depends on the labour force being inadequate - and that there would be no other controls on immigration that would enable essential skills to be admitted.

But, I'm no economics expert - so I'll step back from this topic.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: IanB on July 07, 2016, 04:03:02 am
It seems to me that that depends on the labour force being inadequate - and that there would be no other controls on immigration that would enable essential skills to be admitted.

But, I'm no economics expert - so I'll step back from this topic.

What I'm really trying to say (just my opinion) is "follow the money". Any time you find a policy being promoted, and it is not immediately obvious why it should be needed, you can look to see who stands to gain from it financially.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Stonent on July 07, 2016, 05:50:53 am
If you look into American politics we had NAFTA the "North American Free Trade Agreement" which ended up being anything but free trade. I don't think I've met a single person in the US, Left, Right, or Center that thinks we were better for it.

Remember this part too...

People who want to do harm to western countries find it easy to move about in the EU.  There was an interview I saw with one area in the UK that had the highest percentage of leave votes and they cited their number one concern as being the people coming in under the guise of being a refugee who has bad things planned.

You see the news stories of women being assaulted by recent refugees and what do you expect? People are going to get nervous about it.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 07, 2016, 08:20:44 am
People who want to do harm to western countries find it easy to move about in the EU.  There was an interview I saw with one area in the UK that had the highest percentage of leave votes and they cited their number one concern as being the people coming in under the guise of being a refugee who has bad things planned.
Being that the UK is not part of Schengen it is pretty silly to blame the EU for that.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on July 07, 2016, 08:44:29 am
I haven't seen many politicians talking about this.

The remain camp is absolutely right about one thing: the vote to leave is irrational and against the voters self interests. In the long run. Being able to trade freely with others is always welfare enhancing.

However, the vote to leave is more of a protest vote: it is a vote against status quo, against a political class that is totally divorced from the rest of the people that it is supposed to serve, against the slow trend of disappearing middle class, against free benefits and a welfare state whose costs are overwhelming and explodingly so.

I hope the UK folks can find a leader that can guide them forward.

You can always set up free trade deals without having to financially support countries that can't seem to get their accounts in order.

You seem to be missing two essential details
  • the 27 must crucify the UK in order to demonstrate that leaving the EU is worse than staying in the EU. That will make any deal difficult.
  • trade deals are and will be tied to the free movement of labour - which is the principal reason the turkeys voted for brexit. Not much chance of a compromise there

No crucifixion is happening. We're not there to crucify UK. We're trying to wind off the process so that things stabilise again,
 and we can once more have a resourceful and honourable relation with UK.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 07, 2016, 09:40:43 am
I haven't seen many politicians talking about this.

The remain camp is absolutely right about one thing: the vote to leave is irrational and against the voters self interests. In the long run. Being able to trade freely with others is always welfare enhancing.

However, the vote to leave is more of a protest vote: it is a vote against status quo, against a political class that is totally divorced from the rest of the people that it is supposed to serve, against the slow trend of disappearing middle class, against free benefits and a welfare state whose costs are overwhelming and explodingly so.

I hope the UK folks can find a leader that can guide them forward.

You can always set up free trade deals without having to financially support countries that can't seem to get their accounts in order.

You seem to be missing two essential details
  • the 27 must crucify the UK in order to demonstrate that leaving the EU is worse than staying in the EU. That will make any deal difficult.
  • trade deals are and will be tied to the free movement of labour - which is the principal reason the turkeys voted for brexit. Not much chance of a compromise there

No crucifixion is happening. We're not there to crucify UK. We're trying to wind off the process so that things stabilise again,
 and we can once more have a resourceful and honourable relation with UK.

I'm sure that's your personal attitude, and it is one I would like to believe.

The politicians in various countries will, very reasonably,  be concerned that this could destabilise their internal politics and/or economy. The last thing the EU needs is another country repeating this nonsense next year! The politicians will do whatever they deem necessary to avoid that, and a key part of that to ensure their electorate (who are no more knowledgeable/sensible than our turkeys) see that leaving hurts more than staying.

Now the knowledgeable will be convinced by subtle evidence, but the ignorant (and those that would like to lead the ignorant) will require blatant evidence that cannot be ignored. That requires that it hurts more than "necessary".
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 07, 2016, 09:43:22 am
People who want to do harm to western countries find it easy to move about in the EU.  There was an interview I saw with one area in the UK that had the highest percentage of leave votes and they cited their number one concern as being the people coming in under the guise of being a refugee who has bad things planned.
Being that the UK is not part of Schengen it is pretty silly to blame the EU for that.

Of course.

But you assume that rational arguments are relevant. Emotional arguments are much easier to make, and it is much easier to have "a big lie" in an emotional argument.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Zero999 on July 07, 2016, 10:12:03 am
You seem to be missing two essential details
  • trade deals are and will be tied to the free movement of labour - which is the principal reason the turkeys voted for brexit. Not much chance of a compromise there
The trade deal with Canada doesn't insist on free movement of labour. 
http://ec.europa.eu/news/2016/07/20160705_2_en.htm (http://ec.europa.eu/news/2016/07/20160705_2_en.htm)

If the EU mandate free movement of labour as a condition of a trade deal with the UK, then it would purely be for political reasons. There needs to be compromise on both sides. It's in both the EU's and UK's best interests to secure a decent deal.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 07, 2016, 10:44:27 am
You seem to be missing two essential details
  • trade deals are and will be tied to the free movement of labour - which is the principal reason the turkeys voted for brexit. Not much chance of a compromise there
The trade deal with Canada doesn't insist on free movement of labour. 
http://ec.europa.eu/news/2016/07/20160705_2_en.htm (http://ec.europa.eu/news/2016/07/20160705_2_en.htm)

But others do, notably those with Norway and Switzerland.

Quote
If the EU mandate free movement of labour as a condition of a trade deal with the UK, then it would purely be for political reasons. There needs to be compromise on both sides. It's in both the EU's and UK's best interests to secure a decent deal.

I have noted such political reasons in other posts.

The concept of "decent" is too multi-dimensional to be helpful in this context. Which of the competing and mutually-exclusive "dimensions" are more important to the politicians?

The problem with compromise is that it will encourage *exits movements in other countries, and the last thing the EU needs is another *exit next year.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 07, 2016, 10:49:27 am
If the EU mandate free movement of labour as a condition of a trade deal with the UK, then it would purely be for political reasons.
Of course. The ever closer union.

There needs to be compromise on both sides. It's in both the EU's and UK's best interests to secure a decent deal.
Quid pro quo, of course. I rather suspect that the UK will be the party that will have to make the most compromises, though, up to and including getting a Norwegian solution. An amazingly good outcome for Brussels. Nothing will have changed except the UK will now be powerless and unable to block the ever closer union  :palm:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 07, 2016, 11:12:57 am
If the EU mandate free movement of labour as a condition of a trade deal with the UK, then it would purely be for political reasons.
Of course. The ever closer union.

There needs to be compromise on both sides. It's in both the EU's and UK's best interests to secure a decent deal.
Quid pro quo, of course. I rather suspect that the UK will be the party that will have to make the most compromises, though, up to and including getting a Norwegian solution. An amazingly good outcome for Brussels. Nothing will have changed except the UK will now be powerless and unable to block the ever closer union  :palm:

Nobody could possibly have foreseen that, could they.

In the UK the debate will shift to hard-brexit or soft-brexit, e.g. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36723220 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36723220)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on July 07, 2016, 11:45:54 am
The trade deal with Canada doesn't insist on free movement of labour. 
http://ec.europa.eu/news/2016/07/20160705_2_en.htm (http://ec.europa.eu/news/2016/07/20160705_2_en.htm)

If the EU mandate free movement of labour as a condition of a trade deal with the UK, then it would purely be for political reasons. There needs to be compromise on both sides. It's in both the EU's and UK's best interests to secure a decent deal.

That was my thinking.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Wytnucls on July 07, 2016, 12:04:10 pm
I can't see the EU compromising on free movement of labour, linked to free access to EU markets.
There has to be new tough regulations though, to reduce illegal immigration and benefits for refugees, EU wide, to avoid further disintegration of the union.

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/is-the-swiss-model-a-brexit-solution/ (http://ukandeu.ac.uk/is-the-swiss-model-a-brexit-solution/)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Zero999 on July 07, 2016, 12:42:12 pm
You seem to be missing two essential details
  • trade deals are and will be tied to the free movement of labour - which is the principal reason the turkeys voted for brexit. Not much chance of a compromise there
The trade deal with Canada doesn't insist on free movement of labour. 
http://ec.europa.eu/news/2016/07/20160705_2_en.htm (http://ec.europa.eu/news/2016/07/20160705_2_en.htm)

But others do, notably those with Norway and Switzerland.
So why one rule for one country and a different one for others?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on July 07, 2016, 12:47:12 pm
You seem to be missing two essential details
  • trade deals are and will be tied to the free movement of labour - which is the principal reason the turkeys voted for brexit. Not much chance of a compromise there
The trade deal with Canada doesn't insist on free movement of labour. 
http://ec.europa.eu/news/2016/07/20160705_2_en.htm (http://ec.europa.eu/news/2016/07/20160705_2_en.htm)

But others do, notably those with Norway and Switzerland.

Quote
If the EU mandate free movement of labour as a condition of a trade deal with the UK, then it would purely be for political reasons. There needs to be compromise on both sides. It's in both the EU's and UK's best interests to secure a decent deal.

I have noted such political reasons in other posts.

The concept of "decent" is too multi-dimensional to be helpful in this context. Which of the competing and mutually-exclusive "dimensions" are more important to the politicians?

The problem with compromise is that it will encourage *exits movements in other countries, and the last thing the EU needs is another *exit next year.

Compromise is at the heart of GOOD politics.
The EU is doomed in the long term and the UK has made the correct decision IHHO.
The most successful business people I know voted for BREXIT.
They are private companies involved in the oil industry (a global industry).
Just to give the doom and gloom merchants something else to worry about.
Article 50 is only about leaving the EU.
The trade deal comes after that.  :-DD

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Zero999 on July 07, 2016, 12:56:46 pm
Quid pro quo, of course. I rather suspect that the UK will be the party that will have to make the most compromises, though, up to and including getting a Norwegian solution. An amazingly good outcome for Brussels. Nothing will have changed except the UK will now be powerless and unable to block the ever closer union  :palm:
Personally I don't have an issue with immigration so would be happy with that, if it gives us more freedom to negotiate trade deals with the rest of the world.

However, I believe the majority of those who voted to leave, did so over concerns of immigration so that would not be a democratic outcome.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 07, 2016, 01:19:03 pm
You seem to be missing two essential details
  • trade deals are and will be tied to the free movement of labour - which is the principal reason the turkeys voted for brexit. Not much chance of a compromise there
The trade deal with Canada doesn't insist on free movement of labour. 
http://ec.europa.eu/news/2016/07/20160705_2_en.htm (http://ec.europa.eu/news/2016/07/20160705_2_en.htm)

But others do, notably those with Norway and Switzerland.

Quote
If the EU mandate free movement of labour as a condition of a trade deal with the UK, then it would purely be for political reasons. There needs to be compromise on both sides. It's in both the EU's and UK's best interests to secure a decent deal.

I have noted such political reasons in other posts.

The concept of "decent" is too multi-dimensional to be helpful in this context. Which of the competing and mutually-exclusive "dimensions" are more important to the politicians?

The problem with compromise is that it will encourage *exits movements in other countries, and the last thing the EU needs is another *exit next year.

Compromise is at the heart of GOOD politics.

If compromise is possible, and if the politicians/politics are good. Recent examples of the latter have made me ashamed to be British.

Quote
The EU is doomed in the long term and the UK has made the correct decision IHHO.

That's a pious hope, because nobody knows.

Quote
The most successful business people I know voted for BREXIT.

The most successful business people I know voted to remain. They have already seen contracts aborted explicitly because of Brexit => -10 skilled full-time jobs.

Quote
They are private companies involved in the oil industry (a global industry).

My examples are in IT and knowledge engineering (a global industry).

Quote
Just to give the doom and gloom merchants something else to worry about.
Article 50 is only about leaving the EU.
The trade deal comes after that.  :-DD

Yup, and the trade deal with the US will be to bend over and be shafted by the TTIP - which is a far greater threat to people in the UK than anything the EU has done.

Q: why has there been such a tight lid on what's in the TTIP?
A: because if people knew the consequences, they would be out demonstrating in the streets.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on July 07, 2016, 01:38:15 pm
In the newspaper today, our politicians are telling that large financial institutions from the UK are making inquiries about the dutch possibilities if they want to move.
Our country has a very strict bonus culture where bonusses are strictly banded, so probably they will go to Frankfurt.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 07, 2016, 01:47:21 pm
In the newspaper today, our politicians are telling that large financial institutions from the UK are making inquiries about the dutch possibilities if they want to move.
Our country has a very strict bonus culture where bonusses are strictly banded, so probably they will go to Frankfurt.

Frankfurt of Paris are the likely destinations; I suspect Frankfurt is more likely because of the existing ties with the financial institutions there.

BTW: good idea about bonuses. One of the major causes of dissatisfaction here (which lead to the brexit vote) is the greed of people in the city sucking money away from the regions. Note that there is no requirement for the dissatisfaction to be based in reality; mere perception is sufficient.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 07, 2016, 02:31:07 pm
Note that there is no requirement for the dissatisfaction to be based in reality; mere perception is sufficient.
Good point!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: XynxNet on July 07, 2016, 02:42:10 pm
  • the 27 must crucify the UK in order to demonstrate that leaving the EU is worse than staying in the EU. That will make any deal difficult.
  • trade deals are and will be tied to the free movement of labour - which is the principal reason the turkeys voted for brexit. Not much chance of a compromise there
EU doesn't want to crucify anybody. Only idiots are interested in destabilizing other countries. EU likes britain and wanted it to stay. That's why britain had a lot of special priviliges in the eu like it's substantial member fee cut.
It's ok british people didn't like the eu deal any more and voted for brexit.
Now it's time to define/negotiate our future relationship. It's not ok to stall this process by not invoking article 50 and destabilizing britain and the eu for reasons of internal party policy.

Conncerning the free market... The eu deal on it's free market contains more aspekts than just trade of goods. Free movement of labor is an integral part of that. Harmonisation of standards another for example.
I'am sure there will be a compromise between britain and eu. But compromise means for both sides taking some benefits and some disadvantages. There will definitly be some form of trade agreement. Probably without free movement of labor, if this is really a sore point for britain. But it propably won't be todays deal just without free movement, but some form of compromise.


In the newspaper today, our politicians are telling that large financial institutions from the UK are making inquiries about the dutch possibilities if they want to move.
Our country has a very strict bonus culture where bonusses are strictly banded, so probably they will go to Frankfurt.
Let's be honest. They will do what they always did... blackmailing governments into the biggest possible tax cuts. I don't know if there is room for even lower taxes in the city of london, but if new tax cuts outweight the disadvantages of brexit, than they will propably stay there. If not, they will move to the 'cheapest' country in europe for their european business.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: G7PSK on July 07, 2016, 03:41:49 pm
Of course the EU wanted Britain to stay, if by the EU you mean Germany, Britain leaving is set to cost Germany another 2.4 billion euros a year at least.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: XynxNet on July 07, 2016, 03:52:17 pm
Of course the EU wanted Britain to stay, if by the EU you mean Germany, Britain leaving is set to cost Germany another 2.4 billion euros a year at least.
That's pocket money in the sheme of things. Germany spends ~300 billion euros each year. Germany is more concerned about future trade opportunities with britain.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 07, 2016, 04:15:30 pm
  • the 27 must crucify the UK in order to demonstrate that leaving the EU is worse than staying in the EU. That will make any deal difficult.
  • trade deals are and will be tied to the free movement of labour - which is the principal reason the turkeys voted for brexit. Not much chance of a compromise there
EU doesn't want to crucify anybody. Only idiots are interested in destabilizing other countries. EU likes britain and wanted it to stay. That's why britain had a lot of special priviliges in the eu like it's substantial member fee cut.
It's ok british people didn't like the eu deal any more and voted for brexit.
Now it's time to define/negotiate our future relationship. It's not ok to stall this process by not invoking article 50 and destabilizing britain and the eu for reasons of internal party policy.

Conncerning the free market... The eu deal on it's free market contains more aspekts than just trade of goods. Free movement of labor is an integral part of that. Harmonisation of standards another for example.
I'am sure there will be a compromise between britain and eu. But compromise means for both sides taking some benefits and some disadvantages. There will definitly be some form of trade agreement. Probably without free movement of labor, if this is really a sore point for britain. But it propably won't be todays deal just without free movement, but some form of compromise.

I don't disagree with that, and I'm disgusted with our politican's behaviour. So are many people, and that isn't good for democracy in the medium and long term.

Unfortunately it is very rare that divorces are civilised and don't degenerate into vicious destructive squabbles.


Quote
In the newspaper today, our politicians are telling that large financial institutions from the UK are making inquiries about the dutch possibilities if they want to move.
Our country has a very strict bonus culture where bonusses are strictly banded, so probably they will go to Frankfurt.
Let's be honest. They will do what they always did... blackmailing governments into the biggest possible tax cuts. I don't know if there is room for even lower taxes in the city of london, but if new tax cuts outweight the disadvantages of brexit, than they will propably stay there. If not, they will move to the 'cheapest' country in europe for their european business.

The Chancellor of The Exchequer has already said corporation tax will be cut. I don't know how the lost revenue will be replaced (and I doubt he does either).
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 07, 2016, 04:19:55 pm
The euro also dropped a little bit, about 2% compared to the pound 15% drop. That is: it might no longer be in a short while.
This is not even a peep in history scale . Compare with surrendering the sovereignty of a nation.
No, not a peep on a historical scale, but that doesn't say much. The pound is at it's lowest in 31 years. The nation states themselves are only about 150 years old. The sovereignty of a nation is worthless unless you're king/queen of said nation. For everyone else, what matters is that we have democratic control over the governing bodies. The little power EU have, we do have democratic influence over, directly and indirectly.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 07, 2016, 04:33:21 pm
I would have thought that would be a preferred option.  Limit the deal to trade and stay out of the minefield of internal fiscal policy of a trading partner.
One of the main motivation for EU is as a peace project, it's not a simple trade union. The UK was not part of the euro-zone so the euro was not an issue for the UK. Most EU-directives are intended to harmonize the inner market, standardisation and such, it is mostly good things.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 07, 2016, 04:42:52 pm
The euro also dropped a little bit, about 2% compared to the pound 15% drop. That is: it might no longer be in a short while.
This is not even a peep in history scale . Compare with surrendering the sovereignty of a nation.
No, not a peep on a historical scale, but that doesn't say much. The pound is at it's lowest in 31 years. The nation states themselves are only about 150 years old. The sovereignty of a nation is worthless unless you're king/queen of said nation. For everyone else, what matters is that we have democratic control over the governing bodies. The little power EU have, we do have democratic influence over, directly and indirectly.

The larger the union, the less influence people have on their lives. This dilution is amplified if the political union is with different cultures, has obscure processes for selecting the leadership, and centralized bureaucracy keeps expanding its powers.

Brexit will bring the decision making closer to the British people and will preserve the British nation. If I would be a Briton, I would vote for it regardless of short term economic impact. YMMV.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Augustus on July 07, 2016, 04:49:12 pm
The Chancellor of The Exchequer has already said corporation tax will be cut. I don't know how the lost revenue will be replaced (and I doubt he does either).

That's an easy one. Tax rises and spending cuts according to George Osborne:

"It's very clear that the country is going to be poorer as a result of what's happening to the economy," he said.
"We are absolutely going to have to provide fiscal security to people, in other words we are going to have to show the country and the world that the country can live within its means."
Asked if that meant tax rises and spending cuts, he said: "Yes, absolutely. But that decision will come under a new prime minister - it's obviously not possible while the Conservative Party is having a leadership contest."


Someone has to pay for the party and guess who it might be...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on July 07, 2016, 05:01:30 pm
It will go down, just like the rest that went down last time, and they will blame the accumulated problems from the last +20 years on Brexit.
Kind of like how English politicians/tabloids have been blaming their accumulated problems from the last +20 years on EU and immigrants?
Yes. You can't blame any of the problems from the last +20 years on my high-educated Turkish collegue.

But here it gets difficult: He was slightly pro-brexit, and called everyone telling emotionalistic or unspecific "truths" pro- remain/leave "low-educated"
He calls himself privileged too here. Some quotes of him:
"You have to be a Turk to be able to say what you think in Europe"
"As a racist I think you Europeans are stupid enough to get replaced by those illiterates"

Very funny guy, always ready to help, always ready to say something inappropriate.

Difficult to say generalised things about "immigrants" personally.
Easy to say things about the general invasion that is going on, that's completely differrent.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on July 07, 2016, 05:09:49 pm
Were it not for the US, you would be speaking German right now.  Don't forget it!

Besides a traditional american misconception, actually Soviet liberated Europe!...Sort of.....well, one totalitarian idea for another...same Marx and Engels crap.

Indeed, USA did nothing until Hitler was de-facto beaten by Russia, USA feared Russia would take-in their whole empire.
Warcrimes against civilians, like the Dresden Bombing, were mainly a showoff to the enemy-inside-the-allies.


Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 07, 2016, 05:21:44 pm
  • the 27 must crucify the UK in order to demonstrate that leaving the EU is worse than staying in the EU. That will make any deal difficult.
  • trade deals are and will be tied to the free movement of labour - which is the principal reason the turkeys voted for brexit. Not much chance of a compromise there
EU doesn't want to crucify anybody. Only idiots are interested in destabilizing other countries. EU likes britain and wanted it to stay. That's why britain had a lot of special priviliges in the eu like it's substantial member fee cut.
It's ok british people didn't like the eu deal any more and voted for brexit.
Now it's time to define/negotiate our future relationship. It's not ok to stall this process by not invoking article 50 and destabilizing britain and the eu for reasons of internal party policy.
Exactly, no one is interested in punishing or crucifying the UK, that's just stupid. Once the UK leave, EU can't give them special treatment though. EU will have to treat the UK as any other non EU country. EU can't afford to send the message that you can leave and still keep all the benefits while not paying any membership fee etc. If you leave you will have to manage on your own.

Conncerning the free market... The eu deal on it's free market contains more aspekts than just trade of goods. Free movement of labor is an integral part of that. Harmonisation of standards another for example.
I'am sure there will be a compromise between britain and eu. But compromise means for both sides taking some benefits and some disadvantages. There will definitly be some form of trade agreement. Probably without free movement of labor, if this is really a sore point for britain. But it propably won't be todays deal just without free movement, but some form of compromise.
Yes, there will definitely be a trade deal, but it will take time to negotiate, it will not be a priority for EU and it will not be as advantageous for the UK as the deal the UK already had. So it is a very stupid move by the UK.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 07, 2016, 05:23:48 pm
Brexit will bring the decision making closer to the British people and will preserve the British nation.

Ignorant rubbish; the opposite is true. There's no such thing as "The British nation". Seriously.

As a starting point, it is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". Great Britain is a geographical term, and contains Scotland plus Wales plus England. Scotland has its own independent parliament and legal system, e.g. trials can result in three verdicts: guilty, not guilty, not proven. So does N Ireland. And I'm not even going to try and describe the status of The Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. For more information, see the very amusing and accurate 5 minute video at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu8XDBSn10 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu8XDBSn10)

Scotland had an independence referendum two years ago, and narrowly rejected independence largely because it couldn't stay in the EU. Now they want a new referendum on the basis that the last one was under false pretenses. N Ireland may well want to stay in the EU, and rejoin Eire. (And I'm not going to discuss Wales, just because)

In other words, Brexit brings the distinct possibility that the UK will split into three: England+Wales, Scotland, N Ireland.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 07, 2016, 05:35:02 pm
The euro also dropped a little bit, about 2% compared to the pound 15% drop. That is: it might no longer be in a short while.
This is not even a peep in history scale . Compare with surrendering the sovereignty of a nation.
No, not a peep on a historical scale, but that doesn't say much. The pound is at it's lowest in 31 years. The nation states themselves are only about 150 years old. The sovereignty of a nation is worthless unless you're king/queen of said nation. For everyone else, what matters is that we have democratic control over the governing bodies. The little power EU have, we do have democratic influence over, directly and indirectly.

The larger the union, the less influence people have on their lives. This dilution is amplified if the political union is with different cultures, has obscure processes for selecting the leadership, and centralized bureaucracy keeps expanding its powers.

Brexit will bring the decision making closer to the British people and will preserve the British nation.
That is why the principle of subsidiarity is so important in the EU.
From wiki:
"Subsidiarity is perhaps presently best known as a general principle of European Union law. According to this principle, the EU may only act (i.e. make laws) where action of individual countries is insufficient. The principle was established in the 1992 Treaty of Maastricht.[6] However, at the local level it was already a key element of the European Charter of Local Self-Government, an instrument of the Council of Europe promulgated in 1985 (see Article 4, Paragraph 3 of the Charter) (which states that the exercise of public responsibilities should be decentralised)."

If I would be a Briton, I would vote for it regardless of short term economic impact. YMMV.
I assume you would also vote for an independent Texas then? And ultimately for the dissolution of the United States of America?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 07, 2016, 05:46:13 pm
If I would be a Briton, I would vote for it regardless of short term economic impact. YMMV.
I assume you would also vote for an independent Texas then? And ultimately for the dissolution of the United States of America?

I think a lot of Merkins would vote to "offshore" California and Massachusetts :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 07, 2016, 06:17:54 pm
That is why the principle of subsidiarity is so important in the EU.
From wiki:
"Subsidiarity is perhaps presently best known as a general principle of European Union law. According to this principle, the EU may only act (i.e. make laws) where action of individual countries is insufficient.

But who decides that the individual action of countries is not sufficient?

I'd put money on it being the greatest centre of power in the EU - the democracy dodging Commission.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Alex Nikitin on July 07, 2016, 06:33:10 pm
Were it not for the US, you would be speaking German right now.  Don't forget it!

Besides a traditional american misconception, actually Soviet liberated Europe!...Sort of.....well, one totalitarian idea for another...same Marx and Engels crap.

Indeed, USA did nothing until Hitler was de-facto beaten by Russia, USA feared Russia would take-in their whole empire.
Warcrimes against civilians, like the Dresden Bombing, were mainly a showoff to the enemy-inside-the-allies.

If not for the supplies from the US (which did start in 1941) , the Soviet Army (which was only about 55-60% Russian, by the way) would not have a chance.

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 07, 2016, 07:18:54 pm
That is why the principle of subsidiarity is so important in the EU.
From wiki:
"Subsidiarity is perhaps presently best known as a general principle of European Union law. According to this principle, the EU may only act (i.e. make laws) where action of individual countries is insufficient.

But who decides that the individual action of countries is not sufficient?

I'd put money on it being the greatest centre of power in the EU - the democracy dodging Commission.
No, it's the Court of Justice of the European Union in Luxembourg. And ultimately if a member state doesn't like a directive they can ignore it (the only thing EU can do about it is give them a fine) and/or they can leave the union.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 07, 2016, 07:23:49 pm
That is why the principle of subsidiarity is so important in the EU.
From wiki:
"Subsidiarity is perhaps presently best known as a general principle of European Union law. According to this principle, the EU may only act (i.e. make laws) where action of individual countries is insufficient.

But who decides that the individual action of countries is not sufficient?

I'd put money on it being the greatest centre of power in the EU - the democracy dodging Commission.
No, it's the Court of Justice of the European Union in Luxembourg. And ultimately if a member state doesn't like a directive they can ignore it (the only thing EU can do about it is give them a fine) and/or they can leave the union.

Ah, the court with no appeal that always finds in favour of the commission.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 07, 2016, 07:56:37 pm
That is why the principle of subsidiarity is so important in the EU.
From wiki:
"Subsidiarity is perhaps presently best known as a general principle of European Union law. According to this principle, the EU may only act (i.e. make laws) where action of individual countries is insufficient.

But who decides that the individual action of countries is not sufficient?

I'd put money on it being the greatest centre of power in the EU - the democracy dodging Commission.
No, it's the Court of Justice of the European Union in Luxembourg. And ultimately if a member state doesn't like a directive they can ignore it (the only thing EU can do about it is give them a fine) and/or they can leave the union.
Ah, the court with no appeal that always finds in favour of the commission.
The judges are appointed by the member states. And they do not always judge in favour of the commission. For example the court found the data retention directive invalid in 2014.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Zero999 on July 07, 2016, 08:39:09 pm
  • the 27 must crucify the UK in order to demonstrate that leaving the EU is worse than staying in the EU. That will make any deal difficult.
  • trade deals are and will be tied to the free movement of labour - which is the principal reason the turkeys voted for brexit. Not much chance of a compromise there
EU doesn't want to crucify anybody. Only idiots are interested in destabilizing other countries. EU likes britain and wanted it to stay. That's why britain had a lot of special priviliges in the eu like it's substantial member fee cut.
Which was great and makes me sad about leaving.

There seems there's some resentment in the EU against the UK about the special privileges, probably out of jealousy.


Quote
It's ok british people didn't like the eu deal any more and voted for brexit.
Now it's time to define/negotiate our future relationship. It's not ok to stall this process by not invoking article 50 and destabilizing britain and the eu for reasons of internal party policy.
I agree. Our politicians have acted disgracefully.

Quote
Conncerning the free market... The eu deal on it's free market contains more aspekts than just trade of goods. Free movement of labor is an integral part of that. Harmonisation of standards another for example.
I'am sure there will be a compromise between britain and eu. But compromise means for both sides taking some benefits and some disadvantages. There will definitly be some form of trade agreement. Probably without free movement of labor, if this is really a sore point for britain. But it propably won't be todays deal just without free movement, but some form of compromise.
Although I'm in favour of free movement, I can see the disadvantages: migrants from lower income countries driving down wages, increased pressure on public services and wider fluctuations in population making planning difficult.

I don't believe everyone who voted for brexit over immigration did so because of xenophobia. I know Germany has had a lot of immigrants. How do you feel about this?


Quote
In the newspaper today, our politicians are telling that large financial institutions from the UK are making inquiries about the dutch possibilities if they want to move.
Our country has a very strict bonus culture where bonusses are strictly banded, so probably they will go to Frankfurt.
Let's be honest. They will do what they always did... blackmailing governments into the biggest possible tax cuts. I don't know if there is room for even lower taxes in the city of london, but if new tax cuts outweight the disadvantages of brexit, than they will propably stay there. If not, they will move to the 'cheapest' country in europe for their european business.
Yes, our government will have to give the money they donating to the EU to the banks instead.

Of course the EU wanted Britain to stay, if by the EU you mean Germany, Britain leaving is set to cost Germany another 2.4 billion euros a year at least.
That's pocket money in the sheme of things. Germany spends ~300 billion euros each year. Germany is more concerned about future trade opportunities with britain.
Same for the UK, really.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on July 07, 2016, 08:48:02 pm
If I would be a Briton, I would vote for it regardless of short term economic impact. YMMV.
I assume you would also vote for an independent Texas then? And ultimately for the dissolution of the United States of America?

I think a lot of Merkins would vote to "offshore" California and Massachusetts :)

Yes, I would vote to allow Texas to leave and I certainly support the idea of California leaving.  But I don't think I would get a vote in the Texas thing anyway.  It is strictly a matter for Texans - just like Brexit is strictly a matter for the UK.  Outsiders don't get a vote!

There are significant populations within California that are not well represented by the population centers of LA and SF.  Those two cities are massively liberal, not at all like the Central Valley or the northern end of the state.  That's why one discussion has the state breaking up into several smaller states.  I doubt that there will ever be a vote on this plan!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 07, 2016, 08:49:03 pm
... I assume you would also vote for an independent Texas then? And ultimately for the dissolution of the United States of America?

I don't live in Texas, but I would vote for California exit and then move to Texas. :)

Seriously, we have similar problems here, more power keeps shifting from the local and state level to a centralized remote bureaucracy, so I will welcome shifting power and taxes back to the individual states.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Zero999 on July 07, 2016, 08:52:57 pm
... I assume you would also vote for an independent Texas then? And ultimately for the dissolution of the United States of America?

I don't live in Texas, but I would vote for California exit and then move to Texas. :)
Not if Texas leaves first and their new trade deal doesn't involve freedom of movement so they can stop you from immigrating. :-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 07, 2016, 09:34:32 pm
... I assume you would also vote for an independent Texas then? And ultimately for the dissolution of the United States of America?

I don't live in Texas, but I would vote for California exit and then move to Texas. :)

Seriously, we have similar problems here, more power keeps shifting from the local and state level to a centralized remote bureaucracy, so I will welcome shifting power and taxes back to the individual states.
That is a problem everywhere. In southern Sweden (the Scanian provinces) everyone complains about the central power in Stockholm. It's the same in the north. And Sweden is a tiny country. Not all problems can be solved locally though, that is why cooperation on larger geographical scales are necessary. But it's also important to implement the principle of subsidiarity like EU does so you don't centralize power for no good reason.

Maybe the USA should try to implement the principle of subsidiarity as well. :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: IanB on July 07, 2016, 09:39:59 pm
(http://countryballs.net/_nw/20/37492043.jpg) (http://countryballs.net/news/texan_brexit/2016-06-25-2021)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on July 07, 2016, 09:50:15 pm
Quote
author=rstofer link=topic=69503.msg977487#msg977487 date=1467817641
I had quite forgotten about the Canadians.  I should add them to the list.
Its a silly list, dont see the purpose, dont forget to add Guyana while at it.
Quote
It's been a long time since I was over there but I thought I noticed a difference between French and German.  And  French is the
specific language I was talking about.  Yes, I realize that elements of the German language, indeed all languages, spill over into English.
No you didnt, you where initially referring to zee Germans..
Quote
I don't think I ever said anything about 'history'.
No of course not, how could you possibly remember anything with 1kbit "history memory", let's just read out some addresses from your buggy EPROM we-dont-do-dynasties-in-US  speech:
Quote
There may be others but history isn't my interest.
So there you are.
Quote
It's true that it is not a subject I give a rat's patoot about but my country wasn't decimated in two world wars although we did sustain massive casualties.  And, no, Russia had nothing to do with the western edge of Europe during WW II.  And the parts that they 'liberated' seem to have been swept up into their orbit.  Didn't they occupy east Germany for a while?  Seems like I read something about that in the papers.  Or maybe I was made aware of that when I was stationed in Germany in '66-'67.
Quote
The UK is the big European force in NATO.  If the separation gets ugly, how much effort do you expect them to expend defending Europe?  By the time Parliament gets done debating, the war will be over. The US is getting weary of war, I wouldn't count on us either.  It concerns me that we are placing equipment (and troops?) in eastern Europe.

Well, lots of random disorientated rants there, you dont seam to know which Germany you where in and since you "dont-give-rats-patoot- about-history" your bound to repeat the same mistakes history already describes and sure you did by try to minimizing the "very much larger" Russian casualties by playing the outdated "entire-planet-must-be-grateful-for-US-saved-you-all-from-the-nazis-dont-have-to-speak-German" card while deliberately not mentioning +100 000 dead Iraqis and creation of Daesh etc,  besides you seams not to understand fundamental NATO rules..so i leave it there since your rants much like zaptas just end in circus argumentation.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 07, 2016, 09:56:19 pm
... I assume you would also vote for an independent Texas then? And ultimately for the dissolution of the United States of America?

I don't live in Texas, but I would vote for California exit and then move to Texas. :)
Not if Texas leaves first and their new trade deal doesn't involve freedom of movement so they can stop you from immigrating. :-DD
Yes, and they will protect their Mexican border so sneaking from there will not work anymore. Good point. :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on July 07, 2016, 10:08:56 pm
That is a problem everywhere. In southern Sweden (the Scanian provinces) everyone complains about the central power in Stockholm. It's the same in the north. And Sweden is a tiny country. Not all problems can be solved locally though, that is why cooperation on larger geographical scales are necessary. But it's also important to implement the principle of subsidiarity like EU does so you don't centralize power for no good reason.

Its kind of a parody since those who sits in Stockholm are from all those places who complains! Also you dont become a prime/minister unless you have served long time as regional party broiler, and either have the party whip in your hand or stays in line with the dude who swings the part whip, like the "M's" bunker mentality.

But the really astonishing/outstanding feature part is that Sweden among the very few European countries dont have a constitutional court so in practice any civil servant who abuses the system goes entirely free, which has been proven many many times. And in the latest parliament voting to decide if such a court should be implemented the environmentalists and socialists vote no, no wonder!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Macbeth on July 07, 2016, 10:56:57 pm
There are significant populations within California that are not well represented by the population centers of LA and SF.  Those two cities are massively liberal, not at all like the Central Valley or the northern end of the state.  That's why one discussion has the state breaking up into several smaller states.  I doubt that there will ever be a vote on this plan!
Well there is always Rhode Island as an example of a ridiculously small state, at least in the great vast bigger is better american way of things. Though I think that is for historical reasons, the original Brexiteers if you will. Splitters!  ;)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: retrolefty on July 07, 2016, 11:00:49 pm
There are significant populations within California that are not well represented by the population centers of LA and SF.  Those two cities are massively liberal, not at all like the Central Valley or the northern end of the state.  That's why one discussion has the state breaking up into several smaller states.  I doubt that there will ever be a vote on this plan!
Well there is always Rhode Island as an example of a ridiculously small state, at least in the great vast bigger is better american way of things. Though I think that is for historical reasons, the original Brexiteers if you will. Splitters!  ;)

 Yes, RI being one of the 13 original colonies that fought for independence, not likely to want their tiny state to be abolished or merged, but also unlikely to want to be independent by themselves.

 Once read there was (or is) a private cattle ranch on the big island of Hawaii that is (was) bigger then the state of Road Island.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Macbeth on July 07, 2016, 11:05:48 pm
Sweden is a tiny country.

Tiny? Have you looked at a transverse mercator projection map recently?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: System Error Message on July 08, 2016, 02:00:49 am
Seems like BREXIT was a scam all along. The people behind it quit after they won.

Seriously guys stop believing all you see on the media.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vk6zgo on July 08, 2016, 02:05:35 am
Sweden is a tiny country.

Tiny? Have you looked at a transverse mercator projection map recently?

Guessing area from any map with "Mercator" in the name is a mug's game.
Look at a globe.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on July 08, 2016, 03:33:24 am
Here's an image I prepared earlier....

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/slovakia-proudly-featured-in-australian-commercial-for-insanely-expensive-isp/?action=dlattach;attach=221407;image)

Screen shots from Google Earth at approximately 10,000m altitude.

Sweden is larger than a lot of European countries...


Edit: Replaced image with a version that includes Russia.  (Russia was a stitch together of 3 separate images, to reduce the distortion over a curved surface ... because it's that big.)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 08, 2016, 10:43:35 am
Sweden is larger than a lot of European countries...
Scandinavians tend to think in terms of heads, not area. According to that worldview, Canada and Australia are also smallish countries.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 08, 2016, 11:59:50 am
Sweden is larger than a lot of European countries...
Scandinavians tend to think in terms of heads, not area. According to that worldview, Canada and Australia are also smallish countries.
Yes, I was thinking primarily of the population size, not land area. And Scandinavia cover the same latitudes as Alaska... very few people live in the northern parts and you can't really do any crop farming north of Denmark. (It's a lot warmer during winter than in Alaska though, thanks to the gulf stream.)

But the discussion here is about independence from the EU (and the US), and compared to all of EU or USA Sweden is tiny small also if you consider area (it's about the same size as California).

The point I was trying to make was that even in Sweden with its 10 M people, some still complain about power being too centralized and want independence for Skåneland or Jämtland, etc, ;D. And English complaining about power being centralized in Brussels is also sort of ridiculous considering what their own union with Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales looks like. As some 'mericans are saying here, California might as well be broken up in smaller states. You can keep breaking things up until you only have 1 person kingdoms, which would be the same as anarchy, which most people agree isn't a good way to organize things.

So, I suspect most people also agree that different levels of cooperation/organization are necessary, but it's important decisions are made at the right level, and that is what the principle of subsidiary is about. So EU is actually very good in that regard.

But the really astonishing/outstanding feature part is that Sweden among the very few European countries dont have a constitutional court so in practice any civil servant who abuses the system goes entirely free, which has been proven many many times. And in the latest parliament voting to decide if such a court should be implemented the environmentalists and socialists vote no, no wonder!
We don't need a constitutional court because any Swedish court can rule that a law is unconstitutional and therefore invalid, so our normal courts doubles as constitutional courts, sort of. Having a special constitutional court with politically appointed judges like many other countries wouldn't improve anything.

Sweden is a tiny country.
Tiny? Have you looked at a transverse mercator projection map recently?
Here's a geekier projection  :D
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/Fuller_projection_rotated.svg/2000px-Fuller_projection_rotated.svg.png)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 08, 2016, 03:28:54 pm
... As some 'mericans are saying here, California might as well be broken up in smaller states. You can keep breaking things up until you only have 1 person kingdoms, which would be the same as anarchy, which most people agree isn't a good way to organize things.

http://www.seekfind.net/Logical_Fallacy_of_Appeal_to_Extremes.html (http://www.seekfind.net/Logical_Fallacy_of_Appeal_to_Extremes.html)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 08, 2016, 03:36:35 pm
http://www.seekfind.net/Logical_Fallacy_of_Appeal_to_Extremes.html (http://www.seekfind.net/Logical_Fallacy_of_Appeal_to_Extremes.html)
Of all the places you could have chosen, why did you pick a Young Earth creationism one?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 08, 2016, 03:39:29 pm
The fact is we live in societies because it makes sense even insects have cottoned onto this one. However the size of the society can be up for debate. As a human race I don't see why we can't be organised in reasonably small entities rather than huge things like the EU or the whole world for that matter. The essential thing is that we behave like adults (oh sorry I'm talking about common people and politicians) and work together. It doesn't matter what country we belong to we all want peace well unless of course you're talking about Russia and Putin. We should all understand that protecting the environment is essential for ourselves and everybody else. At the end of the day the reason why you need such entrenched politics and rules and regulations is because the brutal fact is that people are selfish and don't care about others so we have to make rules in order to work together.

The problem is that every rule gets abused. Back in the day the original founding states agreed on freedom of movement and this was fine because we were 6 or 7 countries of equal economic and political standing and there was no particular reason why everybody in one country would want to emigrate to another. As far as I'm concerned freedom of movement means that people may emigrate for various reasons perhaps to marry a foreign partner and live with them in their own country or where specific skill sets are required in a country and only foreign nationals have these and therefore they are not taking work away from others which does not really make sense when you are looking at things on a more global scale. But then the EU became a political empire and a means of influencing countries which is quite clear when you look at the mess that happened in Ukraine where basically there is a tug of war over Ukraine remaining faithful to the old Russia or time more links with the EU nations. So we have allowed many countries to join who are nothing like the founding countries and now we are having the rules that were originally implemented for a few countries on an equal footing used and abused for the purposes of everyone.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 08, 2016, 03:58:56 pm
... As some 'mericans are saying here, California might as well be broken up in smaller states. You can keep breaking things up until you only have 1 person kingdoms, which would be the same as anarchy, which most people agree isn't a good way to organize things.

http://www.seekfind.net/Logical_Fallacy_of_Appeal_to_Extremes.html (http://www.seekfind.net/Logical_Fallacy_of_Appeal_to_Extremes.html)
The argument is valid whether you take it to the extreme or not. The more you divide an area into smaller and smaller autonomous regions the more conflict and problems you will have. And there will be a need for cooperation on a higher level to solve the problems that affect all the kingdoms in larger and larger areas. So the argument is valid, I did take it to the extreme to make the evolution of the pattern clearer and easier to see, that is not a fallacy.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 08, 2016, 05:27:09 pm
That is why the principle of subsidiarity is so important in the EU.
From wiki:
"Subsidiarity is perhaps presently best known as a general principle of European Union law. According to this principle, the EU may only act (i.e. make laws) where action of individual countries is insufficient.

But who decides that the individual action of countries is not sufficient?

I'd put money on it being the greatest centre of power in the EU - the democracy dodging Commission.
No, it's the Court of Justice of the European Union in Luxembourg. And ultimately if a member state doesn't like a directive they can ignore it (the only thing EU can do about it is give them a fine) and/or they can leave the union.
Ah, the court with no appeal that always finds in favour of the commission.
The judges are appointed by the member states. And they do not always judge in favour of the commission. For example the court found the data retention directive invalid in 2014.

So the appointed court, can overrule the appointed commission (although it very rarely does). That's a relief.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 08, 2016, 05:32:51 pm
... As some 'mericans are saying here, California might as well be broken up in smaller states. You can keep breaking things up until you only have 1 person kingdoms, which would be the same as anarchy, which most people agree isn't a good way to organize things.

http://www.seekfind.net/Logical_Fallacy_of_Appeal_to_Extremes.html (http://www.seekfind.net/Logical_Fallacy_of_Appeal_to_Extremes.html)
The argument is valid whether you take it to the extreme or not. The more you divide an area into smaller and smaller autonomous regions the more conflict and problems you will have. And there will be a need for cooperation on a higher level to solve the problems that affect all the kingdoms in larger and larger areas. So the argument is valid, I did take it to the extreme to make the evolution of the pattern clearer and easier to see, that is not a fallacy.

If you had to go to the extreme of 1 person states to show that Caxit or Brexit will lead to anarchy maybe they wouldn't. ;-)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on July 08, 2016, 06:31:04 pm

So, I suspect most people also agree that different levels of cooperation/organization are necessary, but it's important decisions are made at the right level, and that is what the principle of subsidiary is about. So EU is actually very good in that regard.


That is exactly the point!  It's pretty easy to go down to City Hall and get things done.  It's a little harder at the County level, nearly impossible at the State level and completely impossible at the Federal level.  We have the most direct input to the organizations at the very bottom of the hierarchy and no influence at the top level.

It is the unreachable top level that makes the most burdensome regulations.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on July 08, 2016, 06:38:09 pm
Quote
no influence at the top level.

Sounds like a revolution is needed, every 200 or so years?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 08, 2016, 06:45:49 pm
Quote
no influence at the top level.

Sounds like a revolution is needed, every 200 or so years?
Or a split if the population grew by an order of magnitude.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 08, 2016, 06:48:36 pm

So, I suspect most people also agree that different levels of cooperation/organization are necessary, but it's important decisions are made at the right level, and that is what the principle of subsidiary is about. So EU is actually very good in that regard.


That is exactly the point!  It's pretty easy to go down to City Hall and get things done.  It's a little harder at the County level, nearly impossible at the State level and completely impossible at the Federal level.  We have the most direct input to the organizations at the very bottom of the hierarchy and no influence at the top level.

It is the unreachable top level that makes the most burdensome regulations.


The problem with our multilevel democracy is that it's fundamentally flawed. We directly elect MPs in an extremely unfair manner which also determines which group of these MPs gets to run the government and therefore which set of ideals and this will be based on marginal seats. For example my local Conservative MP did not even bother to campaign because he knew he would win anyway being in a safe seat instead spent all of his time trying to get a young chap a couple of constituencies away elected and succeeded. So having got more or less the MPs who wanted and a government you may or may not have wanted you then end up with ministers nominated by the elected leader of the ruling party so by this point things are already pretty undemocratic we have no control over who is our Prime Minister other than voting for their party assuming they are in power at the time because they may change as in our case and we have no control over who actually create policies. These elites elected by people who we more or less elected then nominate people to go to Europe and I'm sure you know where this is going yes we just about elect our MPs on an unfair voting system and it then carries on from there with them electing people who then decide who to send places the end result is that you have absolutely no control or guarantee over who is going to be representing you in parts of the EU. I have still not got to the bottom of how much power the commission has versus the MEPs some say the MEPs only get to vote if the commission allow it if this is true then it means the commission has a lot of power and the commission is totally and utterly unelected by us the people.

Yes every 200 years or so we seem to have a revolution because we get to the point where politics has become so bent and people have got so pissed off that something breaks. In today's world however politicians have found ways around this and given that it is easier to reach many people at a time now and therefore control them we have been led into false illusions of competing with our neighbours to be better than one another when at the end of the day we are all just political footballs and the elite are sitting up there laughing at us.

If we had a PR voting system we will overcome one level of un-representative democracy but the ruling party are scared shitless of PR because it would mean they would lose power and that people might actually start to vote and people would stop voting tactically.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: mtdoc on July 08, 2016, 07:32:27 pm

So, I suspect most people also agree that different levels of cooperation/organization are necessary, but it's important decisions are made at the right level, and that is what the principle of subsidiary is about. So EU is actually very good in that regard.


That is exactly the point!  It's pretty easy to go down to City Hall and get things done.  It's a little harder at the County level, nearly impossible at the State level and completely impossible at the Federal level.  We have the most direct input to the organizations at the very bottom of the hierarchy and no influence at the top level.

It is the unreachable top level that makes the most burdensome regulations.

That is the issue. Those responsible for societies ills are too far removed and are thus protected from those directly affected by the adverse consequences of their actions. The masses have no easy means to redress the wrongs. Globalist political and corporate power destroys freedom, democracy and local economies. We will re-localize eventually one way or the other- but the process with be painfull.  Brexit is just a first shot across the bow...

Charles Hugh Smith outlined the issue succinctly with this essay 2 days ago:

Neofeudalism and Peasants with Pitchforks: Corporate Power Destroys Democracy (http://www.oftwominds.com/blogjuly16/democracy7-16.html)

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 08, 2016, 08:13:00 pm
That is the issue. Those responsible for societies ills are too far removed and are thus protected from those directly affected by the adverse consequences of their actions. The masses have no easy means to redress the wrongs. Globalist political and corporate power destroys freedom, democracy and local economies. We will re-localize eventually one way or the other- but the process with be painfull.  Brexit is just a first shot across the bow...

TTIP (and presumably TTP) are the clearest example of this. It will give multinational corporations the ability to sue governments if the local services aren't opened up to competition/exploitation. The mere fear of the lawyers fees associated with being sued will kowtow civil servants into surrender.

It is unclear whether Brexit will help/hinder that process. Certainly the right-wing politicians tend to be in favour of TTIP, and the UK might "get to the front of the queue" w.r.t. trade agreements if it bends over and accepts being shafted by the TTIP.

Trump is riding similar sentiments; I wonder what his position on such things is today.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 08, 2016, 08:19:36 pm


Trump is riding similar sentiments; I wonder what his position on such things is today.

s/riding/advocating/
s/sentiments/reasoning/

Otherwise it's OK.  :)

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 08, 2016, 09:59:53 pm
That is the issue. Those responsible for societies ills are too far removed and are thus protected from those directly affected by the adverse consequences of their actions. The masses have no easy means to redress the wrongs. Globalist political and corporate power destroys freedom, democracy and local economies. We will re-localize eventually one way or the other- but the process with be painfull.  Brexit is just a first shot across the bow...

TTIP (and presumably TTP) are the clearest example of this. It will give multinational corporations the ability to sue governments if the local services aren't opened up to competition/exploitation. The mere fear of the lawyers fees associated with being sued will kowtow civil servants into surrender.

It is unclear whether Brexit will help/hinder that process. Certainly the right-wing politicians tend to be in favour of TTIP, and the UK might "get to the front of the queue" w.r.t. trade agreements if it bends over and accepts being shafted by the TTIP.

Trump is riding similar sentiments; I wonder what his position on such things is today.


TTI P was indeed one of the reasons I voted out. I don't believe for 1 minute voting out will get us out of such agreements but if we were negotiating them as the British government and not the European government so we the people will get to hear more about what is going on and be able to get our voices heard. I can go and visit my MP and give him a piece of my mind but my MP does not even know what is in TTI P.

The fact that something like TTI P could even be conceived and discussed in the EU parliament is enough from me to decide that it has become a monstrosity that is uncontrollable and not very useful. The whole concept should have been thrown out at its inception instead they have been talking about it seriously for years.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 08, 2016, 10:17:28 pm
That is the issue. Those responsible for societies ills are too far removed and are thus protected from those directly affected by the adverse consequences of their actions. The masses have no easy means to redress the wrongs. Globalist political and corporate power destroys freedom, democracy and local economies. We will re-localize eventually one way or the other- but the process with be painfull.  Brexit is just a first shot across the bow...

TTIP (and presumably TTP) are the clearest example of this. It will give multinational corporations the ability to sue governments if the local services aren't opened up to competition/exploitation. The mere fear of the lawyers fees associated with being sued will kowtow civil servants into surrender.

It is unclear whether Brexit will help/hinder that process. Certainly the right-wing politicians tend to be in favour of TTIP, and the UK might "get to the front of the queue" w.r.t. trade agreements if it bends over and accepts being shafted by the TTIP.

Trump is riding similar sentiments; I wonder what his position on such things is today.


TTI P was indeed one of the reasons I voted out. I don't believe for 1 minute voting out will get us out of such agreements but if we were negotiating them as the British government and not the European government so we the people will get to hear more about what is going on and be able to get our voices heard. I can go and visit my MP and give him a piece of my mind but my MP does not even know what is in TTI P.

The fact that something like TTI P could even be conceived and discussed in the EU parliament is enough from me to decide that it has become a monstrosity that is uncontrollable and not very useful. The whole concept should have been thrown out at its inception instead they have been talking about it seriously for years.

I don't understand your conclusion. The EU is the only entity large enough to stand up to the corporations. United we stand, divided we fall. Divide and conquer.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Macbeth on July 08, 2016, 10:25:02 pm
The argument is valid whether you take it to the extreme or not. The more you divide an area into smaller and smaller autonomous regions the more conflict and problems you will have. And there will be a need for cooperation on a higher level to solve the problems that affect all the kingdoms in larger and larger areas. So the argument is valid, I did take it to the extreme to make the evolution of the pattern clearer and easier to see, that is not a fallacy.
Of course we could take it to the other extreme - a true globalist world with a single commissioner in charge. But what kind of world. Perhaps a Caliphate? Sweden is well on the way of becoming the EU Caliphate as it is...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on July 08, 2016, 10:57:40 pm
The argument is valid whether you take it to the extreme or not. The more you divide an area into smaller and smaller autonomous regions the more conflict and problems you will have. And there will be a need for cooperation on a higher level to solve the problems that affect all the kingdoms in larger and larger areas. So the argument is valid, I did take it to the extreme to make the evolution of the pattern clearer and easier to see, that is not a fallacy.

No, it's not valid.

Look at the counter-argument.  The more areas are consolidated and governance centralized, the less people feel government functions well and works for them.  That's why every empire *ever* has fallen apart, 100% of the time. 

If you look at the longest lived "divisions" (countries), they work because they are geographically, culturally, socially and economically the same.  When two areas that aren't the same join, they always ultimately split up. 

Nobody could rationally argue that the countries which currently make up the EU are close enough geographically, culturally, socially and economically that they will stand the test of time.  Hell, the EU hasn't even been around for a single lifetime and it's already had one major country bail out, another 4 come close to economically imploding (4 of the PIIGS), another 1 actually economically implode, and a huge amount of unrest and unhappiness based on what is going on today.

I know quite a few Poles and Romanians and most of them definitely do not see eye-to-eye with their fellow Belgians, Brits and Swedes.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 08, 2016, 11:27:16 pm
I don't understand your conclusion. The EU is the only entity large enough to stand up to the corporations.

But who will stand to the EU (or to our monopolistic centralized bureaucracy for that matter)? 

United we stand, divided we fall.

... and independent we go where we want.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 08, 2016, 11:40:18 pm
I don't understand your conclusion. The EU is the only entity large enough to stand up to the corporations.

But who will stand to the EU (or to our monopolistic centralized bureaucracy for that matter)? 

United we stand, divided we fall.

... and independent we go where we want.

Or where we are allowed to go. We aren't independent any more.

If the Argies invade again, we have to beg the French to let us borrow their carrier.

We have to ask the Chinese to lend us money so the French can build us a nuke to keep the lights on. And the Chinese haven't forgotten how we got our hands on Hong Kong.

Let's hope foreign powers continue to buy our family silver (or continue to lend us money) to finance our trade gap. And that has become more expensive to service, of course.

Nope, we are in a weak(er) position, and no amount of posturing will cover that up.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 09, 2016, 12:00:49 am
The fact that something like TTI P could even be conceived and discussed in the EU parliament is enough from me to decide that it has become a monstrosity that is uncontrollable and not very useful. The whole concept should have been thrown out at its inception instead they have been talking about it seriously for years.

The EU parliament know no more than your MP about about TTIP. It was negotiated by the Commission as secretively as they could. All we know about it has come from leaks. The EU parliament has little to no power compared with the Commission.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 09, 2016, 12:28:22 am


Or where we are allowed to go. We aren't independent any more.

If the Argies invade again, we have to beg the French to let us borrow their carrier.

We have to ask the Chinese to lend us money so the French can build us a nuke to keep the lights on. And the Chinese haven't forgotten how we got our hands on Hong Kong.

Let's hope foreign powers continue to buy our family silver (or continue to lend us money) to finance our trade gap. And that has become more expensive to service, of course.

Nope, we are in a weak(er) position, and no amount of posturing will cover that up.

How did your Country get to the state it is in now?

One easy step at a time.

The electricity nuke problem is easily seen to be Thatcher's legacy. The others are successive politicians  fault.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Macbeth on July 09, 2016, 12:59:08 am
Apis I googled Sweden and the fourth return is "Sweden: Rape Capital of the West". How are your women liking the new multicultural Sweden?

Having a world without borders is a nice dream, maybe in another 1000 years or so it may even be realistic, assuming we don't kill ourselves first. There is to much cultural difference, economic disparity and mistrust for it to be practical now. You can continue with your experiment though, just don't include my Country in it, particularly after seeing what has been going on over the pond, thank you very much.
There is no such thing as native Swedish culture. Not anymore. Of course back in the 1970's we thought of ABBA, mixed naked saunas, VOLVO and meatballs. Even that is too disgustingly eurocentric and "white" for the modern culturally enriched swede. All traces of any traditional culture are to be held in shame and contempt. Even so much as when native, white, swedish girls are raped yet again by the latest influx of Somali and Arab "refugees", the ones who are all male 18-45 but claim they are 14 and are fast tracked in and given free reign in childrens schools.

Perhaps apis thinks this is great?. It is racist to demand a #rapefugee proves he is 14 and not 35 as he appears. Even his fucking facebook on his latest iPhone that he somehow manages to keep hold of, but passport he strangely loses, has all the evidence of his age and where he is from. But lets not go there... that's racist! or worse, Islamophobic! an utter contradiction if there ever was one.

The UK, other than enclaves of Tower Hamlets, Bolton, Bradford, etc. really don't want this shit.

The fast-tracking of Sweden and Germany to make these illiterate barbaric scum EU citizens is why the UK don't want anything to do with it.

Apparently Sweden has cut all its foreign aid and diverted it to these "needy" criminals. It costs them 100,000's EUR per individual criminal wideboy vs 200 EUR per individual child in a foreign aid camp. The illegal immigrant wideboys with their latest iPhones are now leading to the starvation of 500 genuine Syrian refugees per each one of them.

But hey, cultural marxists can Virtue Signal to each other on how well they are destroying the patriarchial cis white race from within.

(Oh lord, I can get references but my cider level is too much tonight! maybe tomorrow when I get ripped a progressive new one!  :-DD :-DD )

ETA: A great Swedish refugee immigrant that speaks out about the insanity is

Angry Foreigner (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KSJY0c8QWw)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on July 09, 2016, 02:03:33 am
(https://farm7.staticflickr.com/6084/6140871714_3ab6184341_o.jpg)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 09, 2016, 02:15:09 am
(Oh lord, I can get references but my cider level is too much tonight! maybe tomorrow when I get ripped a progressive new one!  :-DD :-DD )

Too much alcohol may be the reason, but it isn't an adequate excuse.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: george.b on July 09, 2016, 05:52:45 am
Apis I googled Sweden and the fourth return is "Sweden: Rape Capital of the West". How are your women liking the new multicultural Sweden?

Having a world without borders is a nice dream, maybe in another 1000 years or so it may even be realistic, assuming we don't kill ourselves first. There is to much cultural difference, economic disparity and mistrust for it to be practical now. You can continue with your experiment though, just don't include my Country in it, particularly after seeing what has been going on over the pond, thank you very much.
There is no such thing as native Swedish culture. Not anymore. Of course back in the 1970's we thought of ABBA, mixed naked saunas, VOLVO and meatballs. Even that is too disgustingly eurocentric and "white" for the modern culturally enriched swede. All traces of any traditional culture are to be held in shame and contempt. Even so much as when native, white, swedish girls are raped yet again by the latest influx of Somali and Arab "refugees", the ones who are all male 18-45 but claim they are 14 and are fast tracked in and given free reign in childrens schools.

Perhaps apis thinks this is great?. It is racist to demand a #rapefugee proves he is 14 and not 35 as he appears. Even his fucking facebook on his latest iPhone that he somehow manages to keep hold of, but passport he strangely loses, has all the evidence of his age and where he is from. But lets not go there... that's racist! or worse, Islamophobic! an utter contradiction if there ever was one.

The UK, other than enclaves of Tower Hamlets, Bolton, Bradford, etc. really don't want this shit.

The fast-tracking of Sweden and Germany to make these illiterate barbaric scum EU citizens is why the UK don't want anything to do with it.

Apparently Sweden has cut all its foreign aid and diverted it to these "needy" criminals. It costs them 100,000's EUR per individual criminal wideboy vs 200 EUR per individual child in a foreign aid camp. The illegal immigrant wideboys with their latest iPhones are now leading to the starvation of 500 genuine Syrian refugees per each one of them.

But hey, cultural marxists can Virtue Signal to each other on how well they are destroying the patriarchial cis white race from within.

(Oh lord, I can get references but my cider level is too much tonight! maybe tomorrow when I get ripped a progressive new one!  :-DD :-DD )

ETA: A great Swedish refugee immigrant that speaks out about the insanity is

Angry Foreigner (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KSJY0c8QWw)

When I think of what Swedes are doing to themselves, I get depressed. I am Brazilian and I get depressed thinking about Sweden. That's how bad it is.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 09, 2016, 06:36:53 am
ETA: A great Swedish refugee immigrant that speaks out about the insanity is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KSJY0c8QWw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KSJY0c8QWw)

I see a lot of that insanity in our political left here.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 09, 2016, 06:53:08 am
The fact that something like TTI P could even be conceived and discussed in the EU parliament is enough from me to decide that it has become a monstrosity that is uncontrollable and not very useful. The whole concept should have been thrown out at its inception instead they have been talking about it seriously for years.

The EU parliament know no more than your MP about about TTIP. It was negotiated by the Commission as secretively as they could. All we know about it has come from leaks. The EU parliament has little to no power compared with the Commission.

Right so we force the debate into the UK where our MP's have to know what they are voting on and can be accessd by people
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 09, 2016, 08:23:12 am
Right so we force the debate into the UK where our MP's have to know what they are voting on and can be accessd by people

Meanwhile, back on planet earth...

Gove and his ilk tell everybody to ignore all experts that understand their subjects.
Jo Cox was accessed by her constituents, unfortunately.

In that light, would you like to re-state your point?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 09, 2016, 08:33:21 am
Right so we force the debate into the UK where our MP's have to know what they are voting on and can be accessd by people

Meanwhile, back on planet earth...

Gove and his ilk tell everybody to ignore all experts that understand their subjects.
Jo Cox was accessed by her constituents, unfortunately.

In that light, would you like to re-state your point?

Which is why juries consist of 12, rather than 1 or 2 people.

There are 650 MP's and the house of lords.

So yes, some might vote in a (possibly) foolish way, but the overall votes total wins. Which still should be SENSIBLE.

The NONSENSE is the way they are trying to SECRETLY pass laws/trade-agreements outside of the normal political safeguards.
(E.g. TTIP).
Which is VERY WORRYING.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 09, 2016, 08:36:29 am
Right so we force the debate into the UK where our MP's have to know what they are voting on and can be accessd by people

Meanwhile, back on planet earth...

Gove and his ilk tell everybody to ignore all experts that understand their subjects.
Jo Cox was accessed by her constituents, unfortunately.

In that light, would you like to re-state your point?

Not really I haven't got a clue what you are talking about you have taken a number of facts and used them to miss construct things and are being very unreasonable. Jo Cox's murder was an outrage and carried out by one person. I have always wondered myself what stops me going to see my MP and shooting him because believe it or not Jo Cox was not the only MP in this country that speaks to her constituents even my MP one of the most expensive MPs in the country who does not give a toss about what people want does actually meet his constituents and I have sat down with him in an office with nobody else and anybody could have walked in through the door. Unfortunately Jo drew the short straw and unfortunately right wing nutters are the ones that tend to go around shooting people not left wing nutters and it will be a left wing nut that will go after my local MP. I think more consideration should be given to the safety of MPs you seem to be arguing that nobody be allowed to meet them. On the other hand we could just quash extremist groups like Britain 1st and stop giving so much airtime to people like Nigel Farage. We live in an age where people saying nasty things and lies are the ones that get the most media attention. The truth and good news is not news and we the public are partly responsible. We all know that certain newspapers talk bollocks but do we still buy them? Of course we do so what are we the people doing fuelling the lies. There comes a point where you have to stop blaming other people because we all live in our respective countries together and we can all collectively make a difference but everybody is only out for themselves. Most people when asked will probably say that they respect women and do not deem them to be objects but how many people by certain papers because of page 3?

We know politicians lie and we know that they know less than the experts. But tell me how many experts are there telling us about TTI P at the moment? As mentioned above anything we do know is totally unofficial and then a small group of people get to vote on it for the whole of Europe. If we have this same debate in the UK we would have to have more facts placed before us and hopefully there would be experts able to analyse publicly available information and there will be a debate in Parliament between MPs who can be contacted by their constituents.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 09, 2016, 09:08:13 am
Right so we force the debate into the UK where our MP's have to know what they are voting on and can be accessd by people

Meanwhile, back on planet earth...

Gove and his ilk tell everybody to ignore all experts that understand their subjects.
Jo Cox was accessed by her constituents, unfortunately.

In that light, would you like to re-state your point?

Which is why juries consist of 12, rather than 1 or 2 people.

There are 650 MP's and the house of lords.

So yes, some might vote in a (possibly) foolish way, but the overall votes total wins. Which still should be SENSIBLE.

The NONSENSE is the way they are trying to SECRETLY pass laws/trade-agreements outside of the normal political safeguards.
(E.g. TTIP).
Which is VERY WORRYING.

Tribal loyalties and whipping are a problem in the two houses; they can and do override "common sense". Not that common sense is common, of course.

I entirely agree about the TTIP. That will detrimentally affect the likes of us far more than any considerations of "sovereignty", whatever "sovereignty" means nowadays.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 09, 2016, 09:10:40 am


Tribal loyalties and whipping are a problem in the two houses; they can and do override "common sense". Not that common sense is common, of course.

I entirely agree about the TTIP. That will detrimentally affect the likes of us far more than any considerations of "sovereignty", whatever "sovereignty" means nowadays.

 that is why Jeremy Corbin is so popular because he has defied the leadership time and time again and acted on his principles and that is why people have voted for him and want him to stay despite what he's red Tory colleagues want.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 09, 2016, 09:20:23 am
Tribal loyalties and whipping are a problem in the two houses; they can and do override "common sense". Not that common sense is common, of course.

I entirely agree about the TTIP. That will detrimentally affect the likes of us far more than any considerations of "sovereignty", whatever "sovereignty" means nowadays.

I agree the MP's and house of commons are NOT perfect.

A good example is the loss of our personal privacy, due to overly weak and/or poorly written, "snoopers charters" etc. Also the way our NHS private data, is potentially ANYTHING BUT private!

Governments seem to think that giant IT databases, are a good idea, and REALLY secure. E.g. TalkTalk mass hacking (ok it is NOT government, but an example of how things can go WRONG).

But by and large, it is an improvement on other political systems, in general.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 09, 2016, 10:24:57 am
Right so we force the debate into the UK where our MP's have to know what they are voting on and can be accessd by people
...
Jo Cox was accessed by her constituents, unfortunately.
...

And there goes any credibility you may have had.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on July 09, 2016, 10:42:30 am
that is why Jeremy Corbin is so popular because he has defied the leadership time and time again and acted on his principles and that is why people have voted for him and want him to stay despite what he's red Tory colleagues want.

He's no different from another other middle class Goldsmiths student discovering Marxism for the first time, and like all of them, he lacks any ability to turn that into political action. He's just jealous that the unprincipled Blairites that he hates so much, managed to get anything done.
The "people" voting for him are the same student idealists still carrying a flag from the SWP days, none of this is new or different, it's simply proven to be unelectable.

Want principles, I have lots, just let me know the ones you like the most.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 09, 2016, 10:45:20 am
Right so we force the debate into the UK where our MP's have to know what they are voting on and can be accessd by people
...
Jo Cox was accessed by her constituents, unfortunately.
...

And there goes any credibility you may have had.

Why?

The relevant point is the Jo Cox tragedy will tend to make MPs withdraw into their shell - so making access more difficult. Perhaps I should have made that explicit.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 09, 2016, 11:19:49 am
Right so we force the debate into the UK where our MP's have to know what they are voting on and can be accessd by people
...
Jo Cox was accessed by her constituents, unfortunately.
...

And there goes any credibility you may have had.

Why?

The relevant point is the Jo Cox tragedy will tend to make MPs withdraw into their shell - so making access more difficult. Perhaps I should have made that explicit.

So you believe MPs to be ignorant cowards? People who can't recognise a tragic one-off?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 09, 2016, 12:00:40 pm
Right so we force the debate into the UK where our MP's have to know what they are voting on and can be accessd by people
...
Jo Cox was accessed by her constituents, unfortunately.
...

And there goes any credibility you may have had.

Why?

The relevant point is the Jo Cox tragedy will tend to make MPs withdraw into their shell - so making access more difficult. Perhaps I should have made that explicit.

So you believe MPs to be ignorant cowards? People who can't recognise a tragic one-off?

It is ignorant to believe it is a one-off, unfortunately. Stephen Timms, Ian Dow and Airey Neave are the first that spring to mind.

Here's the first few reports from different parts of the media spectrum:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/jo-cox-devoted-her-life-to-british-democracy--and-she-died-for-i/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/jo-cox-devoted-her-life-to-british-democracy--and-she-died-for-i/)
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/before-jo-cox-last-mp-8213476 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/before-jo-cox-last-mp-8213476)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/jo-cox-murder-what-can-we-do-to-protect-our-mps/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/jo-cox-murder-what-can-we-do-to-protect-our-mps/)
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jo-coxs-murder-could-threaten-8212948 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jo-coxs-murder-could-threaten-8212948)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 09, 2016, 12:26:39 pm
Right so we force the debate into the UK where our MP's have to know what they are voting on and can be accessd by people
...
Jo Cox was accessed by her constituents, unfortunately.
...

And there goes any credibility you may have had.

Why?

The relevant point is the Jo Cox tragedy will tend to make MPs withdraw into their shell - so making access more difficult. Perhaps I should have made that explicit.

So you believe MPs to be ignorant cowards? People who can't recognise a tragic one-off?

It is ignorant to believe it is a one-off, unfortunately. Stephen Timms, Ian Dow and Airey Neave are the first that spring to mind.

Here's the first few reports from different parts of the media spectrum:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/jo-cox-devoted-her-life-to-british-democracy--and-she-died-for-i/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/jo-cox-devoted-her-life-to-british-democracy--and-she-died-for-i/)
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/before-jo-cox-last-mp-8213476 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/before-jo-cox-last-mp-8213476)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/jo-cox-murder-what-can-we-do-to-protect-our-mps/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/jo-cox-murder-what-can-we-do-to-protect-our-mps/)
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jo-coxs-murder-could-threaten-8212948 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jo-coxs-murder-could-threaten-8212948)

Stephen Timms: stabbed by islamic extremist 2010
Ian Dow: ?????
Airey Neave: INLA car bomb - Height of the troubles 1979 (37 years ago)

knee jerk reaction from the press...

That's like saying that no American president will ever appear in public again after the Kennedy assassination.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 09, 2016, 12:39:34 pm
Right so we force the debate into the UK where our MP's have to know what they are voting on and can be accessd by people
...
Jo Cox was accessed by her constituents, unfortunately.
...

And there goes any credibility you may have had.

Why?

The relevant point is the Jo Cox tragedy will tend to make MPs withdraw into their shell - so making access more difficult. Perhaps I should have made that explicit.

So you believe MPs to be ignorant cowards? People who can't recognise a tragic one-off?

It is ignorant to believe it is a one-off, unfortunately. Stephen Timms, Ian Dow and Airey Neave are the first that spring to mind.

Here's the first few reports from different parts of the media spectrum:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/jo-cox-devoted-her-life-to-british-democracy--and-she-died-for-i/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/jo-cox-devoted-her-life-to-british-democracy--and-she-died-for-i/)
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/before-jo-cox-last-mp-8213476 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/before-jo-cox-last-mp-8213476)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/jo-cox-murder-what-can-we-do-to-protect-our-mps/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/jo-cox-murder-what-can-we-do-to-protect-our-mps/)
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jo-coxs-murder-could-threaten-8212948 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jo-coxs-murder-could-threaten-8212948)

Stephen Timms: stabbed by islamic extremist 2010
Ian Dow: ?????
Airey Neave: INLA car bomb - Height of the troubles 1979 (37 years ago)

knee jerk reaction from the press...

That's like saying that no American president will ever appear in public again after the Kennedy assassination.

You aren't the one to determine that threat's significance, since you aren't under that thread. It is up to individual MPs to decide what precautions are necessary for them in their environment.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 09, 2016, 12:40:28 pm
That's like saying that no American president will ever appear in public again after the Kennedy assassination.
That depends on what is meant by appearing in public. When he moves, the presidential counter assault team apparently tags along.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 09, 2016, 02:33:38 pm
Apis I googled Sweden and the fourth return is "Sweden: Rape Capital of the West". How are your women liking the new multicultural Sweden?
I'm sorry but you have fallen victim to a piece of fascist propaganda. Swedish self proclaimed patriots like to slander their own country by spreading lies like that one. If you casually glance at rape statistics it may look like rape has increased in Sweden in recent years but the reason is the change in legislation, not criminal behavior. It's because feminists have been successful at redefining rape and made the sex crime legislation much more strict. You may have heard of a man called Julian Assange who became intimately familiar with this phenomena. ::) If you compare statistics based on the same criteria Sweden actually has less problem with sexual abuse than the rest of Europe.

Having a world without borders is a nice dream, maybe in another 1000 years or so it may even be realistic, assuming we don't kill ourselves first. There is to much cultural difference, economic disparity and mistrust for it to be practical now. You can continue with your experiment though, just don't include my Country in it, particularly after seeing what has been going on over the pond, thank you very much.
I wasn't aware Canada had plans to apply for EU membership? Why do you assume we'd let you join? ;D
Just joking, I'm sure we would, Canadians are great (and also had balls enough to oppose the Iraq war.) :-+
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 09, 2016, 02:50:05 pm
So, I suspect most people also agree that different levels of cooperation/organization are necessary, but it's important decisions are made at the right level, and that is what the principle of subsidiary is about. So EU is actually very good in that regard.
That is exactly the point!  It's pretty easy to go down to City Hall and get things done.  It's a little harder at the County level, nearly impossible at the State level and completely impossible at the Federal level.  We have the most direct input to the organizations at the very bottom of the hierarchy and no influence at the top level.

It is the unreachable top level that makes the most burdensome regulations.
Yes, but not all problems can be solved at the city hall level. What if the town upstream is dumping their sewers downstream so all other towns get poisoned water in the river. You need the county level or state level to regulate how towns manage their waste. The higher levels (and the lower levels as well really) are a necessary evil. Consider something like the ozone hole: how could the world regulate the use of Freon so it didn't cause further damage to the ozone hole unless there was global cooperation?

At least in the european union there is agreement that decisions/regulations should be made at the national level whenever possible, as evident by the subsidiarity principle.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on July 09, 2016, 03:14:34 pm
fascist propaganda

"individuals with an immigrant background made up 53% of all rape convictions"


If you track the rise in rapes, it directly corresponds to the rise in immigration.
Only in Sweden would someone fanatically deny a causal link.

It's the same in Germany, and just like Sweden they instruct the Police to conceal the statistics, because informing women of a potential risk would be way-cist  :scared:

You are directly responsible for perpetuating rape, because you insist on labelling any dissent as racist or fascist. Intimidatory Left wing censorship of discussion is how this issue is allowed to fester.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 09, 2016, 03:22:11 pm
So, I suspect most people also agree that different levels of cooperation/organization are necessary, but it's important decisions are made at the right level, and that is what the principle of subsidiary is about. So EU is actually very good in that regard.
That is exactly the point!  It's pretty easy to go down to City Hall and get things done.  It's a little harder at the County level, nearly impossible at the State level and completely impossible at the Federal level.  We have the most direct input to the organizations at the very bottom of the hierarchy and no influence at the top level.

It is the unreachable top level that makes the most burdensome regulations.
Yes, but not all problems can be solved at the city hall level. What if the town upstream is dumping their sewers downstream so all other towns get poisoned water in the river. You need the county level or state level to regulate how towns manage their waste. The higher levels (and the lower levels as well really) are a necessary evil. Consider something like the ozone hole: how could the world regulate the use of Freon so it didn't cause further damage to the ozone hole unless there was global cooperation?

At least in the european union there is agreement that decisions/regulations should be made at the national level whenever possible, as evident by the subsidiarity principle.

There is a big difference between principle and practice...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 09, 2016, 03:46:05 pm
Right so we force the debate into the UK where our MP's have to know what they are voting on and can be accessd by people
...
Jo Cox was accessed by her constituents, unfortunately.
...

And there goes any credibility you may have had.

Why?

The relevant point is the Jo Cox tragedy will tend to make MPs withdraw into their shell - so making access more difficult. Perhaps I should have made that explicit.

So you believe MPs to be ignorant cowards? People who can't recognise a tragic one-off?

It is ignorant to believe it is a one-off, unfortunately. Stephen Timms, Ian Dow and Airey Neave are the first that spring to mind.

Here's the first few reports from different parts of the media spectrum:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/jo-cox-devoted-her-life-to-british-democracy--and-she-died-for-i/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/jo-cox-devoted-her-life-to-british-democracy--and-she-died-for-i/)
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/before-jo-cox-last-mp-8213476 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/before-jo-cox-last-mp-8213476)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/jo-cox-murder-what-can-we-do-to-protect-our-mps/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/jo-cox-murder-what-can-we-do-to-protect-our-mps/)
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jo-coxs-murder-could-threaten-8212948 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jo-coxs-murder-could-threaten-8212948)

Stephen Timms: stabbed by islamic extremist 2010
Ian Dow: ?????
Airey Neave: INLA car bomb - Height of the troubles 1979 (37 years ago)

knee jerk reaction from the press...

That's like saying that no American president will ever appear in public again after the Kennedy assassination.

You aren't the one to determine that threat's significance, since you aren't under that thread. It is up to individual MPs to decide what precautions are necessary for them in their environment.

I cross the road, I know the odds.

Jo Cox was the only MP ever to be murdered at a constituents surgery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serving_British_MPs_who_were_assassinated (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serving_British_MPs_who_were_assassinated)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on July 09, 2016, 04:10:28 pm
Stephen Timms: stabbed by islamic extremist 2010

Funny that, he or his attacker barely gets a mention in the press.

Joe Cox, gets worldwide attention, with even Hillary Clinton getting in on the karma whoring


I wonder what the differences were...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 09, 2016, 04:14:22 pm
Stephen Timms: stabbed by islamic extremist 2010

Funny that, he or his attacker barely gets a mention in the press.

Joe Cox, gets worldwide attention, with even Hillary Clinton getting in on the karma whoring

I wonder what the differences were...

Prettiness, and the number of journalists in town looking for a story (any story) to file?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 09, 2016, 04:17:36 pm
Right so we force the debate into the UK where our MP's have to know what they are voting on and can be accessd by people
...
Jo Cox was accessed by her constituents, unfortunately.
...

And there goes any credibility you may have had.

Why?

The relevant point is the Jo Cox tragedy will tend to make MPs withdraw into their shell - so making access more difficult. Perhaps I should have made that explicit.

So you believe MPs to be ignorant cowards? People who can't recognise a tragic one-off?

It is ignorant to believe it is a one-off, unfortunately. Stephen Timms, Ian Dow and Airey Neave are the first that spring to mind.

Here's the first few reports from different parts of the media spectrum:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/jo-cox-devoted-her-life-to-british-democracy--and-she-died-for-i/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/16/jo-cox-devoted-her-life-to-british-democracy--and-she-died-for-i/)
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/before-jo-cox-last-mp-8213476 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/before-jo-cox-last-mp-8213476)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/jo-cox-murder-what-can-we-do-to-protect-our-mps/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/17/jo-cox-murder-what-can-we-do-to-protect-our-mps/)
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jo-coxs-murder-could-threaten-8212948 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jo-coxs-murder-could-threaten-8212948)

Stephen Timms: stabbed by islamic extremist 2010
Ian Dow: ?????
Airey Neave: INLA car bomb - Height of the troubles 1979 (37 years ago)

knee jerk reaction from the press...

That's like saying that no American president will ever appear in public again after the Kennedy assassination.

You aren't the one to determine that threat's significance, since you aren't under that thread. It is up to individual MPs to decide what precautions are necessary for them in their environment.

I cross the road, I know the odds.

Jo Cox was the only MP ever to be murdered at a constituents surgery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serving_British_MPs_who_were_assassinated (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_serving_British_MPs_who_were_assassinated)

One near miss, with the strong implication there have been others...
http://talkradio.co.uk/highlights/jo-cox-lets-stop-yelling-mps-says-edwina-currie-1606171694 (http://talkradio.co.uk/highlights/jo-cox-lets-stop-yelling-mps-says-edwina-currie-1606171694)

I suspect Currie knows more about this than you do.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 09, 2016, 04:29:50 pm
That is why the principle of subsidiarity is so important in the EU.
From wiki:
"Subsidiarity is perhaps presently best known as a general principle of European Union law. According to this principle, the EU may only act (i.e. make laws) where action of individual countries is insufficient.

But who decides that the individual action of countries is not sufficient?

I'd put money on it being the greatest centre of power in the EU - the democracy dodging Commission.
No, it's the Court of Justice of the European Union in Luxembourg. And ultimately if a member state doesn't like a directive they can ignore it (the only thing EU can do about it is give them a fine) and/or they can leave the union.
Ah, the court with no appeal that always finds in favour of the commission.
The judges are appointed by the member states. And they do not always judge in favour of the commission. For example the court found the data retention directive invalid in 2014.
So the appointed court, can overrule the appointed commission (although it very rarely does). That's a relief.
How is it any different in the UK? You elect MPs who appoint the Prime minister who appoint the Cabinet ministers and so on. The judges of the UK supreme court are appointed by the Queen (!) on advice of the Prime Minister.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 09, 2016, 04:38:08 pm
fascist propaganda
If you track the rise in rapes, it directly corresponds to the rise in immigration.
Only in Sweden would someone fanatically deny a causal link.
It's a lie. The statistics are clear. Correlation doesn't mean causation, that is statistics 101. I think I have a pretty decent grasp of what is going on in Sweden, I actually live here you know. Go to london and ask Julian Assange what he thinks. :P
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 09, 2016, 05:13:44 pm
That is why the principle of subsidiarity is so important in the EU.
From wiki:
"Subsidiarity is perhaps presently best known as a general principle of European Union law. According to this principle, the EU may only act (i.e. make laws) where action of individual countries is insufficient.

But who decides that the individual action of countries is not sufficient?

I'd put money on it being the greatest centre of power in the EU - the democracy dodging Commission.
No, it's the Court of Justice of the European Union in Luxembourg. And ultimately if a member state doesn't like a directive they can ignore it (the only thing EU can do about it is give them a fine) and/or they can leave the union.
Ah, the court with no appeal that always finds in favour of the commission.
The judges are appointed by the member states. And they do not always judge in favour of the commission. For example the court found the data retention directive invalid in 2014.
So the appointed court, can overrule the appointed commission (although it very rarely does). That's a relief.
How is it any different in the UK? You elect MPs who appoint the Prime minister who appoint the Cabinet ministers and so on. The judges of the UK supreme court are appointed by the Queen (!) on advice of the Prime Minister.
You do realise that the PM and all ministers are elected members of parliament?

As for supreme court judges, by appointed you mean 'got the job they applied for'? https://www.supremecourt.uk/about/appointments-of-justices.html (https://www.supremecourt.uk/about/appointments-of-justices.html)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 09, 2016, 05:23:27 pm
If you look at the longest lived "divisions" (countries), they work because they are geographically, culturally, socially and economically the same.  When two areas that aren't the same join, they always ultimately split up.
Example? Isolationist countries have always ended up poor and technologically backwards. China seems to be doing great and has a very heterogeneous makeup.

Nobody could rationally argue that the countries which currently make up the EU are close enough geographically, culturally, socially and economically that they will stand the test of time.
Evidently lots of people could, can and do. Besides, the cultural and social differences of the EU (and nation states in general) were artificially engineered during the 19th century. What about the US, all those geographically, culturally, socially and economically different states seems to get along just fine.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on July 09, 2016, 05:28:35 pm
Quote
When I think of what Swedes are doing to themselves, I get depressed. I am Brazilian and I get depressed thinking about Sweden. That's how bad it is.

Yes, but on the other hand, we have to respect the Swedish people's rights to be that. It is part of one's human rights to be stupid, to be detrimental to ones' own interests, to their own demise. And if that's what the Swedes want (through their politicians), they shall get it.

You would think that it is natural to think that Sweden is for Swedes, first and foremost, just as the UK is for British. But sometimes people are just stupid and the best help you can give them is to let them see how much hurt their stupidity is bringing to themselves.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 09, 2016, 05:46:35 pm
That is why the principle of subsidiarity is so important in the EU.
From wiki:
"Subsidiarity is perhaps presently best known as a general principle of European Union law. According to this principle, the EU may only act (i.e. make laws) where action of individual countries is insufficient.

But who decides that the individual action of countries is not sufficient?

I'd put money on it being the greatest centre of power in the EU - the democracy dodging Commission.
No, it's the Court of Justice of the European Union in Luxembourg. And ultimately if a member state doesn't like a directive they can ignore it (the only thing EU can do about it is give them a fine) and/or they can leave the union.
Ah, the court with no appeal that always finds in favour of the commission.
The judges are appointed by the member states. And they do not always judge in favour of the commission. For example the court found the data retention directive invalid in 2014.
So the appointed court, can overrule the appointed commission (although it very rarely does). That's a relief.
How is it any different in the UK? You elect MPs who appoint the Prime minister who appoint the Cabinet ministers and so on. The judges of the UK supreme court are appointed by the Queen (!) on advice of the Prime Minister.
You do realise that the PM and all ministers are elected members of parliament?

As for supreme court judges, by appointed you mean 'got the job they applied for'? https://www.supremecourt.uk/about/appointments-of-justices.html (https://www.supremecourt.uk/about/appointments-of-justices.html)
You elect your MPs who appoints a PM who then then appoints ministers to sit on the European council of ministers (like all the other member countries) and so on. It's complicated but I don't see how the UK is any more or less democratic.

The judges in the European court of justice are appointed by the national governments of the member states, just like the justices in the UK supreme court used to be appointed by the UK PM. But looks like the UK changed the procedure 2005. I don't pretend to know how the UK is organized in detail...

About the EU commission: "While the Commission is the executive branch, the candidates are chosen individually by the 28 national governments, which means it is not possible for a Commission Member or its President to be removed by a direct election. Rather, the legitimacy of the Commission is mainly drawn from the vote of approval that is required from the European Parliament, along with Parliament's power to dismiss the body"... etc.

You should read up on how it works, it's complicated and there are problems (which I'm the first to admit) but it's a lot more democratic than you seem to believe.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on July 09, 2016, 05:54:53 pm
fascist propaganda
If you track the rise in rapes, it directly corresponds to the rise in immigration.
Only in Sweden would someone fanatically deny a causal link.
It's a lie. The statistics are clear. Correlation doesn't mean causation, that is statistics 101. I think I have a pretty decent grasp of what is going on in Sweden, I actually live here you know. Go to london and ask Julian Assange what he thinks. :P

Apis wake up the Matrix world

#Forty years after the Swedish parliament unanimously decided to change the formerly homogenous Sweden into a multicultural country, violent crime has increased by 300% and rapes by 1,472%. Sweden is now number two on the list of rape countries, surpassed only by Lesotho in Southern Africa.

#Significantly, the report does not touch on the background of the rapists. One should, however, keep in mind that in statistics, second-generation immigrants are counted as Swedes.

#In an astounding number of cases, the Swedish courts have demonstrated sympathy for the rapists, and have acquitted suspects who have claimed that the girl wanted to have sex with six, seven or eight men.

#The internet radio station Granskning Sverige called the mainstream newspapers Aftonbladet and Expressen to ask why they had described the perpetrators as "Swedish men" when they actually were Somalis without Swedish citizenship. They were hugely offended when asked if they felt any responsibility to warn Swedish women to stay away from certain men. One journalist asked why that should be their responsibility.


In 1975, the Swedish parliament unanimously decided to change the former homogeneous Sweden into a multicultural country. Forty years later the dramatic consequences of this experiment emerge: violent crime has increased by 300%.

If one looks at the number of rapes, however, the increase is even worse. In 1975, 421 rapes were reported to the police; in 2014, it was 6,620. That is an increase of 1,472%.

Sweden is now number two on the global list of rape countries. According to a survey from 2010, Sweden, with 53.2 rapes per 100,000 inhabitants, is surpassed only by tiny Lesotho in Southern Africa, with 91.6 rapes per 100,000 inhabitants

According to figures published by The Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention (Brottsförebyggande rådet; known as Brå) -- an agency under the Ministry of Justice -- 29,000 Swedish women, during 2011, reported that they had been raped (which seems to indicate that less than 25% of the rapes are reported to the police).

Strange explanations

Rather than doing something about the problem of violence and rape, Swedish politicians, public authorities and media do their best to explain away the facts. Here are some of their explanations:

Swedes have become more prone to report crime.
The law has been changed so that more sexual offences are now classed as rape.
Swedish men cannot handle increased equality between the sexes and react with violence against women (perhaps the most fanciful excuse).
A long-held feminist myth is that the most dangerous place for a woman is her own home -- that most rapes are committed by someone she knows. This claim was refuted by Brå's report:

"In 58% of cases, the perpetrator was entirely unknown by the victim. In 29% of cases the perpetrator was an acquaintance, and in 13% of cases the perpetrator was a person close to the victim."

Brå reports that there are no major differences between women of Swedish and foreign background when it comes to the risk of being raped. Significantly, the report does not touch on the background of the rapists.

Without parallel


Back in 1975, the year when politicians decided that Sweden was to become multicultural, the Swedish population stood at 8,208,442. By 2014 it had grown to 9,743,087 -- an increase of 18.7%. This growth is entirely due to immigration, as Swedish women on average give birth to 1.92 children compared to the 2.24 average of immigrant women. One should, however, keep in mind that in the statistics, second-generation immigrants are counted as Swedes.

Sweden's recent population growth is without parallel. Never before in the country's history has the number of inhabitants increased so fast. Sweden is now the fastest growing country in Europe.

Over the past 10-15 years, immigrants have mainly come from Muslim countries such as Iraq, Syria and Somalia. Might this mass influx explain Sweden's rape explosion? It is difficult to give a precise answer, because Swedish law forbids registration based on people's ancestry or religion. One possible explanation is that, on average, people from the Middle East have a vastly different view of women and sex than Scandinavians have. And despite the attempts by the Swedish establishment to convince the population that everyone setting foot on Swedish soil becomes exactly like those who have lived here for dozens of generations, facts point in an altogether different direction.

The latest statistical survey of immigrant criminality compared to that of Swedes was done in 2005. The results are practically never mentioned. Not only that; anyone who dares refer to them, for example on social media, is viciously attacked.

Denigration of ethnic groups

Michael Hess, a local politician from Sweden Democrat Party, encouraged Swedish journalists to get acquainted with Islam's view of women, in connection with the many rapes that took place in Cairo's Tahrir Square during the "Arab Spring". Hess wrote, "When will you journalists realize that it is deeply rooted in Islam's culture to rape and brutalize women who refuse to comply with Islamic teachings. There is a strong connection between rapes in Sweden and the number of immigrants from MENA-countries [Middle East and North Africa]."

This remark led to Michael Hess being charged with "denigration of ethnic groups" [hets mot folkgrupp], a crime in Sweden. In May last year, he was handed a suspended jail sentence and a fine -- the suspension was due to the fact that he had no prior convictions. The verdict has been appealed to a higher court.

For many years, Michael Hess lived in Muslim countries, and he is well acquainted with Islam and its view of women. During his trial, he provided evidence of how sharia law deals with rape, and statistics to indicate that Muslims are vastly overrepresented among perpetrators of rape in Sweden. However, the court decided that facts were irrelevant:

"The Court [Tingsrätten] notes that the question of whether or not Michael Hess's pronouncement is true, or appeared to be true to Michael Hess, has no bearing on the case. Michael Hess's statement must be judged based on its timing and context. ... At the time of the offense, Michael Hess referred neither to established research nor to Islamic sources. It was only in connection with his indictment that Michael Hess tried to find support in research and religious writings. The Court therefore notes that Michael Hess's pronouncement was obviously not a part of any reasoned [saklig] or trustworthy [vederhäftig] discussion. Michael Hess's pronouncement must therefore be viewed as an expression of disdain for immigrants with an Islamic faith."

Statistical evidence

What may one conclude from the available statistics?

As part of the evidence Michael Hess presented in court, he made use of whatever statistics existed on immigrant criminality in Sweden before the statistical authorities stopped measuring. Michael Hess tried to find answers to two questions:

Is there a correspondence between the incidence of rape and the number of people with a foreign background in Sweden?
Is there a correspondence between the incidence of rape and some specific group of immigrants in Sweden?
The answer to both questions was an unequivocal Yes. Twenty-one research reports from the 1960s until today are unanimous in their conclusions: Whether or not they measured by the number of convicted rapists or men suspected of rape, men of foreign extraction were represented far more than Swedes. And this greater representation of persons with a foreign background keeps increasing:

1960-1970s – 1.2 to 2.6 times as often as Swedes
1980s – 2.1 to 4.7 times as often as Swedes
1990s – 2.1 to 8.1 times as often as Swedes
2000s – 2.1 to 19.5 times as often as Swedes
Even when adjusted for variables such as age, sex, class and place of residence, the huge discrepancy between immigrants and Swedes remains.

Research reports on crime in Sweden have become a rarity, but among the eighteen that were done during the 1990s and the 2000s, eleven dealt with rape. Two of these reports dealt with the connection between rape and immigration, and they both confirmed that there is a link.

These figures are available to the authorities, the politicians and the press, yet they insist that these numbers do not mirror reality.

Glaring discrepancy

How is it, then, that in 2008, Sweden's neighbor Denmark only had 7.3 rapes per 100,000 inhabitants compared to 53.2 in Sweden?

Danish legislation is not very different from Sweden's, and there is no obvious reason why Danish women should be less inclined to report rape than their Swedish counterparts.

In 2011, 6,509 rapes were reported to the Swedish police -- but only 392 in Denmark. The population of Denmark is about half the size of Sweden's, so even adjusted for size, the discrepancy is significant.

In Sweden, the authorities do what they can to conceal the origin of the rapists. In Denmark, the state's official statistical office, Statistics Denmark, revealed that in 2010 more than half of convicted rapists had an immigrant background.

Foreigners overrepresented

Since 2000, there has only been one research report on immigrant crime. It was done in 2006 by Ann-Christine Hjelm from Karlstads University.

It emerged that in 2002, 85% of those sentenced to at least two years in prison for rape in Svea Hovrätt, a court of appeals, were foreign born or second-generation immigrants.

A 1996 report by the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention reached the conclusion that immigrants from North Africa (Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia) were 23 times as likely to commit rape as Swedish men. The figures for men from Iraq, Bulgaria and Romania were, respectively, 20, 18 and 18. Men from the rest of Africa were 16 times more prone to commit rape; and men from Iran, Peru, Ecuador and Bolivia, 10 times as prone as Swedish men.

Gang rapes

A new trend reached Sweden with full force over the past few decades: gang rape -- virtually unknown before in Swedish criminal history. The number of gang rapes increased spectacularly between 1995 and 2006. Since then no studies of them have been undertaken.

One of the worst cases occurred in 2012, when a 30-year old woman was raped by eight men in a housing project for asylum seekers, in the small town of Mariannelund. The woman was an acquaintance of a man from Afghanistan who had lived in Sweden for a number of years. He invited her to go out with him. She obliged. The Afghan man took her to a refugee housing project and left her defenseless. During the night, she was raped repeatedly by the asylum seekers and when her "friend" returned, he raped her too. The following morning she managed to call the police. Sweden's public prosecutor has called the incident "the worst crime of rape in Swedish criminal history."

Seven of the men were sentenced to between 4.5 and 6.5 years in prison. Prison time is usually reduced by a third, so it won't be long before the men will be ready for new assaults -- presumably on infidel women.

In cases of gang rape, culprits and victims are most often young and in almost every case, the perpetrators are of immigrant background, mostly from Muslim countries. In an astounding number of cases, the Swedish courts have demonstrated sympathy for the rapists. Several times the courts have acquitted suspects who have claimed that the girl wanted sex with six, seven or eight men.

One striking incident occurred in 2013, in the Stockholm suburb of Tensta. A 15-year-old girl was locked up while six men of foreign extraction had sex with her. The lower court convicted the six men but the court of appeals acquitted them because no violence had occurred, and because the court determined that the girl "had not been in a defenseless position."

This month, all major Swedish media reported on a brutal gang rape on board the Finnish Ferry Amorella, running between Stockholm and Åbo in Finland. Big headlines told the readers that the perpetrators were Swedish:

"Several Swedish Men Suspected of Rape on the Finland Ferry" (Dagens Nyheter).
"Six Swedish Men Raped Woman in Cabin" (Aftonbladet).
"Six Swedes Arrested for Rape on Ferry" (Expressen).
"Eight Swedes Suspected of Rape on Ferry" (TT – the Swedish News Agency).
On closer inspection, it turned out that seven of the eight suspects were Somalis and one was Iraqi. None of them had Swedish citizenship, so they were not even Swedish in that sense. According to witnesses, the group of men had been scouring the ferry looking for sex. The police released four of them (but they are still suspects) whereas four (all Somalis) remain in custody.

The internet radio station Granskning Sverige called the mainstream newspapers Aftonbladet and Expressen to ask why they had described the perpetrators as "Swedish men" when they were actually Somalis. That is irrelevant, said the journalists. They were hugely offended when asked if they felt any responsibility to warn Swedish women to stay away from certain men. One journalist asked why that should be their responsibility.

"If the women knew, then perhaps they would have stayed away from these men and avoided being raped," said the reporter from Granskning Sverige. Whereupon the journalist slammed down the phone.

Ingrid Carlqvist and Lars Hedegaard are editors-in-chief of Dispatch International.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5195/sweden-rape (http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5195/sweden-rape)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Augustus on July 09, 2016, 05:56:09 pm
Quote
When I think of what Swedes are doing to themselves, I get depressed. I am Brazilian and I get depressed thinking about Sweden. That's how bad it is.

Yes, but on the other hand, we have to respect the Swedish people's rights to be that. It is part of one's human rights to be stupid, to be detrimental to ones' own interests, to their own demise. And if that's what the Swedes want (through their politicians), they shall get it.

You would think that it is natural to think that Sweden is for Swedes, first and foremost, just as the UK is for British. But sometimes people are just stupid and the best help you can give them is to let them see how much hurt their stupidity is bringing to themselves.

It's not on you to decide who is "stupid" or not, this thread should be locked before it get's completely out of control  :--
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 09, 2016, 06:01:59 pm
fascist propaganda
If you track the rise in rapes, it directly corresponds to the rise in immigration.
Only in Sweden would someone fanatically deny a causal link.
It's a lie. The statistics are clear. Correlation doesn't mean causation, that is statistics 101. I think I have a pretty decent grasp of what is going on in Sweden, I actually live here you know. Go to london and ask Julian Assange what he thinks.[emoji14]
It's also possible that you have bias. I see it with people that live and have bias regarding local events.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 09, 2016, 06:03:18 pm
That is the issue. Those responsible for societies ills are too far removed and are thus protected from those directly affected by the adverse consequences of their actions. The masses have no easy means to redress the wrongs. Globalist political and corporate power destroys freedom, democracy and local economies. We will re-localize eventually one way or the other- but the process with be painfull.  Brexit is just a first shot across the bow...

TTIP (and presumably TTP) are the clearest example of this. It will give multinational corporations the ability to sue governments if the local services aren't opened up to competition/exploitation. The mere fear of the lawyers fees associated with being sued will kowtow civil servants into surrender.

It is unclear whether Brexit will help/hinder that process. Certainly the right-wing politicians tend to be in favour of TTIP, and the UK might "get to the front of the queue" w.r.t. trade agreements if it bends over and accepts being shafted by the TTIP.

Trump is riding similar sentiments; I wonder what his position on such things is today.


TTI P was indeed one of the reasons I voted out. I don't believe for 1 minute voting out will get us out of such agreements but if we were negotiating them as the British government and not the European government so we the people will get to hear more about what is going on and be able to get our voices heard. I can go and visit my MP and give him a piece of my mind but my MP does not even know what is in TTI P.

The fact that something like TTI P could even be conceived and discussed in the EU parliament is enough from me to decide that it has become a monstrosity that is uncontrollable and not very useful. The whole concept should have been thrown out at its inception instead they have been talking about it seriously for years.
The UK government are the ones (together with Sweden sadly) who has been pushing TTIP most enthusiastically. If anything EU was the best hope you had to put an end to it, or at least limit the consequences.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 09, 2016, 06:05:08 pm
Quote
When I think of what Swedes are doing to themselves, I get depressed. I am Brazilian and I get depressed thinking about Sweden. That's how bad it is.

Yes, but on the other hand, we have to respect the Swedish people's rights to be that. It is part of one's human rights to be stupid, to be detrimental to ones' own interests, to their own demise. And if that's what the Swedes want (through their politicians), they shall get it.

You would think that it is natural to think that Sweden is for Swedes, first and foremost, just as the UK is for British. But sometimes people are just stupid and the best help you can give them is to let them see how much hurt their stupidity is bringing to themselves.

It's not on you to decide who is "stupid" or not, this thread should be locked before it get's completely out of control  :--
Yeah, seems like no one wants to discuss Brexit anymore, and the Brexit had nothing to do with electronics anyway.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on July 09, 2016, 06:09:10 pm
Quote
Apis wake up the Matrix world

The swedes can always vote out the politicians, and they haven't so.

So if they want to have their country, their culture and their people destroyed, who's to say that they don't have that right?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on July 09, 2016, 06:12:43 pm
Quote
In Sweden, the authorities do what they can to conceal the origin of the rapists.

You find that in the media reporting of the dallas snipping: during the first 18 hours or so, there was no mentioning of the guy's race.

Many times, you listen to not just what's being reported, but also what's not being reporting, to get the whole picture, :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 09, 2016, 06:36:17 pm
That is why the principle of subsidiarity is so important in the EU.
From wiki:
"Subsidiarity is perhaps presently best known as a general principle of European Union law. According to this principle, the EU may only act (i.e. make laws) where action of individual countries is insufficient.

But who decides that the individual action of countries is not sufficient?

I'd put money on it being the greatest centre of power in the EU - the democracy dodging Commission.
No, it's the Court of Justice of the European Union in Luxembourg. And ultimately if a member state doesn't like a directive they can ignore it (the only thing EU can do about it is give them a fine) and/or they can leave the union.
Ah, the court with no appeal that always finds in favour of the commission.
The judges are appointed by the member states. And they do not always judge in favour of the commission. For example the court found the data retention directive invalid in 2014.
So the appointed court, can overrule the appointed commission (although it very rarely does). That's a relief.
How is it any different in the UK? You elect MPs who appoint the Prime minister who appoint the Cabinet ministers and so on. The judges of the UK supreme court are appointed by the Queen (!) on advice of the Prime Minister.
You do realise that the PM and all ministers are elected members of parliament?

As for supreme court judges, by appointed you mean 'got the job they applied for'? https://www.supremecourt.uk/about/appointments-of-justices.html (https://www.supremecourt.uk/about/appointments-of-justices.html)
You elect your MPs who appoints a PM who then then appoints ministers to sit on the European council of ministers (like all the other member countries) and so on. It's complicated but I don't see how the UK is any more or less democratic.

The judges in the European court of justice are appointed by the national governments of the member states, just like the justices in the UK supreme court used to be appointed by the UK PM. But looks like the UK changed the procedure 2005. I don't pretend to know how the UK is organized in detail...

About the EU commission: "While the Commission is the executive branch, the candidates are chosen individually by the 28 national governments, which means it is not possible for a Commission Member or its President to be removed by a direct election. Rather, the legitimacy of the Commission is mainly drawn from the vote of approval that is required from the European Parliament, along with Parliament's power to dismiss the body"... etc.

You should read up on how it works, it's complicated and there are problems (which I'm the first to admit) but it's a lot more democratic than you seem to believe.

I have read up and seen how it works. It's a study in removing any democratic accountability from the ruling class.

You really ought to look at how it actually works as opposed to how they project how it works.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 09, 2016, 06:37:17 pm
That is the issue. Those responsible for societies ills are too far removed and are thus protected from those directly affected by the adverse consequences of their actions. The masses have no easy means to redress the wrongs. Globalist political and corporate power destroys freedom, democracy and local economies. We will re-localize eventually one way or the other- but the process with be painfull.  Brexit is just a first shot across the bow...

TTIP (and presumably TTP) are the clearest example of this. It will give multinational corporations the ability to sue governments if the local services aren't opened up to competition/exploitation. The mere fear of the lawyers fees associated with being sued will kowtow civil servants into surrender.

It is unclear whether Brexit will help/hinder that process. Certainly the right-wing politicians tend to be in favour of TTIP, and the UK might "get to the front of the queue" w.r.t. trade agreements if it bends over and accepts being shafted by the TTIP.

Trump is riding similar sentiments; I wonder what his position on such things is today.


TTI P was indeed one of the reasons I voted out. I don't believe for 1 minute voting out will get us out of such agreements but if we were negotiating them as the British government and not the European government so we the people will get to hear more about what is going on and be able to get our voices heard. I can go and visit my MP and give him a piece of my mind but my MP does not even know what is in TTI P.

The fact that something like TTI P could even be conceived and discussed in the EU parliament is enough from me to decide that it has become a monstrosity that is uncontrollable and not very useful. The whole concept should have been thrown out at its inception instead they have been talking about it seriously for years.
The UK government are the ones (together with Sweden sadly) who has been pushing TTIP most enthusiastically. If anything EU was the best hope you had to put an end to it, or at least limit the consequences.

That's my understanding and belief.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on July 09, 2016, 06:56:17 pm
Quote
In Sweden, the authorities do what they can to conceal the origin of the rapists.

You find that in the media reporting of the dallas snipping: during the first 18 hours or so, there was no mentioning of the guy's race.

Many times, you listen to not just what's being reported, but also what's not being reporting, to get the whole picture, :)

This success on all world , here when  there are gunfire , all medias say that : the authors of the gunfire are spanish.
It is true , but manipulated because the the 90% gunfire the authors are  Spanish Familiar Clans  of the gipsies. Here there are a "effective"  weapon control , all the gipsies with war weapons and if you bring a slingshot, the police  may detain and denunciate  you by illegal weapon and the judges condemn until 3 years of prision.

An other times , the own journalist try to mock of the censorship and they publicate the surname of the criminals(90% foreigns)

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on July 09, 2016, 07:38:19 pm
Quote
In Sweden, the authorities do what they can to conceal the origin of the rapists.
You find that in the media reporting of the dallas snipping: during the first 18 hours or so, there was no mentioning of the guy's race.
Many times, you listen to not just what's being reported, but also what's not being reporting, to get the whole picture, :)
The picture is much more difficult. If you mention race you feed the racist opinion machine, something the media already does continuously.
Here in my country the Maroccans are the ones being targeted, so if there is a crime and the perp is Maroccan they (the media) always mentions it in some form like nord african.
You keep feeding the segregation machine if you keep doing that. It is not important if the person that did the shooting was chinese,african, polish, or whatever, he was an american and you need to ask the question why? and IMO also how someone could get access to military weaponry. Those are the question that need to be answered. How come the % of some subcultures gets into criminal activities more then other subcultures. Is it because there are not enough jobs? Possibilities to educate? I heard rhere are neighboorhoods in the US where the police does not dare to go to. How rediculous is that and you accept this and call yourselves civilized? That are the questions and it is about time someone listened and did something about it.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on July 09, 2016, 07:57:21 pm
Quote
Apis wake up the Matrix world

The swedes can always vote out the politicians, and they haven't so.

So if they want to have their country, their culture and their people destroyed, who's to say that they don't have that right?

It doesn't always work like that.

The issue in the UK is that a number of mainly working class people wanted something "done" about immigration, (or rather the rapid formation of ghettos within their community which was rapidly destroying all social cohesion)

Green party policy - essentially wide open borders to islam, just lol
Tory party policy - "Mainstream Britain needs to integrate with the muslim way of life."
Labour party policy (Corbyn) - "It will be my pleasure and honor to host an event in Parliament where our friends from Hezbollah will be speaking, I’ve also invited our friends from Hamas to come and speak as well"
Labour party policy (Miliband) - "ethnic diversity has made us stronger"
Labour party policy (Brown) - "Don't say terrorists are Muslims"
Labour party policy (Blair) - "immigration policy was designed to ‘rub the Right’s nose in diversity’"
Liberal party policy - "we revelled in our diversity" "a nation at ease with diversity"
EU policy - essentially wide open borders to islam

 :palm:

So we had a large section of the population, already marginalised by poverty and poor education, now bearing the entire brunt of social changes with no political voice to defend them.

They had a decade of champagne socialism and a hostile indifference from all parts of the political spectrum, so sometimes you can't save a country from itself and you can't vote for change  :scared:

But when presented with an open vote like Brexit, they voted with irrational anger towards a system that was easily linked with everything that had denied them a voice.
This was why everyone in UK/EU politics was surprised, because they really thought everyone was thinking the same as them, that diversity was wonderful...  :palm:


Sweden is this times 100, a political neo-liberalism that hates its own people and seeks to deny a large proportion of them a voice. Essentially like every society where the Left has unthinking media support, you end up with a Totalitarian State controlled by Orwell's New-speak


 
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 09, 2016, 08:07:49 pm
Sweden is this times 100, a political neo-liberalism that hates its own people and seeks to deny a large proportion of them a voice. Essentially like every society where the Left has unthinking media support, you end up with a Totalitarian State controlled by Orwell's New-speak
It is evident that you don't really comprehend Sweden
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on July 09, 2016, 08:14:52 pm
It is evident that you don't really comprehend Sweden

It's evident that you disagree with the videos uploaded by Angry Foreigner, a Swedish national.

I did also watch a recent documentary on Sweden which made me think they are still blissfully unaware of the changes happening around them. Amazingly nobody in Sweden has the slightest notion that Islam is a political system as well as a religion, they are like children.
Remember the UK is much further down this road than Sweden, NoGo zones, active Sharia courts, ghetto cities, white minorities and rape are not a new thing for us.
But we do have a wider range of media sources, even if our political parties are all the same.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 09, 2016, 08:24:03 pm
It's evident that you disagree with the videos uploaded by Angry Foreigner, a Swedish national.
I certainly do.

I did also watch a recent documentary on Sweden which made me think they are still blissfully unaware of the changes happening around them.
You watched a TV program.  I interact with Swedish people every working day, I read Swedish papers and watch Swedish TV. heck, I even read Swedish literature.

Remember the UK is much further down this road than Sweden
So Sweden isn't in such a bad shape after all.

but we do have a wider range of media sources.
That's a good one. You forget that most Scandinavians understand multiple languages and have access to both the Internet and foreign television. You can even buy foreign papers  ;D
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on July 09, 2016, 08:41:35 pm
I interact with Swedish people every working day, I read Swedish papers and watch Swedish TV. heck, I even read Swedish literature.
Oddly the UK is currently obsessed with Swedish crime films and books, I bet we are their biggest market.

Ever watch the film "Invasion of the Body Snatchers"? That's what Sweden looks like to us now.
In Sweden, it's like nothing has happened, they wander around like Eloi waiting for the siren, it's just so sad to watch because we can see what is coming.

We have already seen the same changes in our country and now we have ten far right parties leap out of nowhere to oppose it. Theirs is a tiny country, does no one imagine the social changes might just be enormous?
Sweden has the SD party going from nowhere to 20% support, doesn't that suggest a change in society that isn't on your radar?

Quote
Scandinavians understand multiple languages and have access to both the Internet and foreign television.
So does ISIS, it doesn't mean they are going to change any time soon because they think they are right too. If you are all stuck in the same line of political thinking then you might as well be North Korea. Cultural relativism, always a joy to behold.


What do you think it means to have a taboo topic in society; Is it healthy or is it self destructive?

Noted that you only wish to dismiss an opinion without presenting your own. I'm not interested in a one sided discussion with someone.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 09, 2016, 09:44:46 pm
What do you think it means to have a taboo topic in society; Is it healthy or is it self destructive?

Noted that you only wish to dismiss an opinion without presenting your own. I'm not interested in a one sided discussion with someone.
We can't have that, can we?

I agree with you that the SD party is a reaction to all that PC in Sweden and one that was bound to happen. What has surprised me is that it took so long before it happened. Sweden has sorely needed to get a healthier discourse about these subjects - unfortunately it still hasn't got it.

I have no reason to doubt that a large part of the Swedes actually truly believe that the official immigration policy is the only reasonable way for decent people to act.

To vote for SD is the same as declaring that you are not a decent person (might even be objectively true  ::) ). But even without going with the SD, you wouldn't want other people to think that you are one of "nassarna" (i.e., the nazis) by voicing critical opinions on immigration. PC is a strong force.

That other side of the coin of this taboo as you call it, of this missing discourse, is exactly that it helps extremism grow.

But something has changed. The increased inflow of migrants last year did cause Sweden to introduce controls at its borders, as you know. The Swedish press has actually started debating how much more can the country handle.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Koen on July 09, 2016, 09:52:19 pm
Ingrid Carlqvist and Lars Hedegaard are editors-in-chief of Dispatch International.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5195/sweden-rape (http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5195/sweden-rape)
Quality source, bravo ! :palm:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on July 09, 2016, 10:30:50 pm
What has surprised me is that it took so long before it happened. Sweden has sorely needed to get a healthier discourse about these subjects - unfortunately it still hasn't got it.
The media has an overt influence in the UK, we used have popular left and right wing outlets, yet now the left media is overly concerned with finding victims of oppression and the right media is pretty much a clickbait version of Reddit.
This has led to a lot of entrenched trivial thinking in politics, albeit split equally.

Quote
I have no reason to doubt that a large part of the Swedes actually truly believe that the official immigration policy is the only reasonable way for decent people to act.

Entirely admirable, however it's also kind of obvious that the third world is beating a path to its door, and if it doesn't stop being quite so admirable then it is just going to be an extension of the third world. There is a reason why Africa does not have a benefits system like Sweden's.

Quote
you wouldn't want other people to think that you are one of "nassarna" (i.e., the nazis) by voicing critical opinions on immigration. PC is a strong force.

This is the most interesting thing about this topic, countries like Germany and Sweden are still suffering from a post WWII rejection of Nationalism, this I think has led to an over reaction to the need to help refugees.

This would be fine if all those refugees were still Jews, you honestly would not have noticed they were even there. The current demographic bring with them political aspirations of their own. This is the new paradigm.

The true ignorance lies not with the integration concerns of today or even the current round of middle eastern internecine wars, but the fact that this is now a permanent problem that will stretch decades into the future.

Water use in Africa and the Middle East is unsustainable, those populations are soon all going to leave, and they will all come to places that have existing ethnic populations - ie Sweden and Germany.
Even the English Channel is a porous border, yet Europe isn't even thinking about this issue.
They really need to look at the unnerving failure of the Melilla border fence and consider what it means for them in the future.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on July 09, 2016, 10:34:35 pm
Quote
If you mention race you feed the racist opinion machine

Being a liberal, i'm an avid listener of NPR. Today, they had a discussion with some race experts who  lamented at people's unwillingness to have an honest discussion on race. One guy (non-white) said that he couldn't understand why people were so afraid of discussing racial relationships and another said that it was just so unfair that young african-americans were disproportionately killed by police.

I thought that issue of disparaty is easy to fix: we should just randomly select people from all racial groups and age groups and have them executed by police so the reported disparaty would go away.

:)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on July 09, 2016, 10:43:10 pm
another said that it was just so unfair that young african-americans were disproportionately killed by police.

People need to watch the youtube videos for all these killings and note the behaviour of the African-Americans involved.

In many cases they are arguing back, running around or behaving erratically. Basically not complying.
I believe that this is a cultural difference that white cops find unnerving, so they shoot first.
(it's racist too, obvs, but that's too simplistic I feel)

White people I think are more likely to sit there and comply, possibly because they don't feel the same level of threat that black people do in the same situation.

I note a recent case of a white person arguing back, behaving erratically and basically not complying.
He was Tasered to death.

It's not always skin colour that gets you shot, but acting like a dickhead will always work.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: george.b on July 09, 2016, 10:58:07 pm
In my simple mind, if you're going to live in another country, you're expected to abide by the laws and customs of that country. Is there anything wrong with this idea?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Zero999 on July 09, 2016, 11:23:28 pm
The point I was trying to make was that even in Sweden with its 10 M people, some still complain about power being too centralized and want independence for Skåneland or Jämtland, etc, ;D. And English complaining about power being centralized in Brussels is also sort of ridiculous considering what their own union with Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales looks like. As some 'mericans are saying here, California might as well be broken up in smaller states. You can keep breaking things up until you only have 1 person kingdoms, which would be the same as anarchy, which most people agree isn't a good way to organize things.
A similar sort of thing is true in many countries but the difference between them and the EU is one government rules a population with a similar culture. The US may be large but it's culturally more homogeneous than Europe, which is very diverse.

Problems start to arise when certain areas of a country have a totally difficult cultural identity to the rest. This is seen in the UK, Ukraine, Ireland etc, and if it's strong enough and a peaceful outcome can't be found then there's trouble, especially when there are other economic and social problems.

I agree that the EU is a good thing, in that it allows many smaller countries to stick together but I think too much power has been sucked into the commission. Some central power is necessary for trade and security but I believe it's past its optimum. It's also dominated by the richer countries of which the UK is one and I doubt the British would have been able to negotiate so many opt outs if it wasn't.


Democracy works better on a more local level because those in power are more aware of the needs of the population.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on July 09, 2016, 11:25:29 pm
In my simple mind, if you're going to live in another country, you're expected to abide by the laws and customs of that country. Is there anything wrong with this idea?

I can't really defend the British in this regard, because we sailed the world putting our flag onto other peoples soil and claiming it for ourselves.
That Islam would repeat the same process in the 21st Century should not be unexpected, as we share basically the same supremacist ideologies.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 10, 2016, 01:35:08 am
I have no reason to doubt that a large part of the Swedes actually truly believe that the official immigration policy is the only reasonable way for decent people to act.

If so, they cornered themselves mentally into a cultural suicide by eliminating any self defense option. Good luck for them.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: GEuser on July 10, 2016, 02:40:31 am
In my simple mind, if you're going to live in another country, you're expected to abide by the laws and customs of that country. Is there anything wrong with this idea?

Looks like I'm in your Club too , so now it's "our" club ..
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: kaz911 on July 10, 2016, 07:59:20 am
Having worked closely with Police in Denmark for many years - I can say until about 2012 all Danish crime stats detailing religion or origin was not allowed. About 2012 they have opened up slightly. But the Politicians are scared to show the real impact of immigrants in the justice system. So statistics are still not showing the full picture - much to the annoyance of anyone working in the field.

My brother is a manager for 6 fire-stations (a council full). Dependent on area - they need police escort to make certain they can get access - and things wont get stolen out of their trucks.Often they have bricks and stones thrown at them. Sometimes they even get Molotov cocktails thrown at them. At traffic incidents/accidents they often have to REMOVE unrelated "1 & 2 generation" immigrants with FORCE - to help the person(s) in need - as the immigrants are busy filming with their phones and "lifting" valuables out of the accident cars - despite not having any relation to neither cars or victims. Helping the victims - not at all.

And remember - there are plenty of Arabic countries where Syrians, Algerian, Moroccan etc. people could go and live if they could support themselves and live between people of their own religion. But does the fellow Muslims from Saudi, Kuwait, UAE and Oman want to help their brothers and sisters in need? Nope not at all. Haram! (Haram is an Arabic exclamation stating something is sinful and/or against the will of Allah)

So the refugees travel to the north- where they then want to impost their religion on our people and have us accept that their religions have precedence over our laws and ethics. The christian Bible says we can not depict god as a man - just like the Quran does. But we do not kill people who do anyway. God, Jesus and every single apostle & prophet has been depicted in anything from Christian texts to cartoons. Western religion has moved on from the black and white interpretation written ? 2000 years ago.... (with a few exceptions)

So helping people in need - yes - pulling our pants down and saying "rape us from behind" - no thanks.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 10, 2016, 07:59:36 am
Democracy works better on a more local level because those in power are more aware of the needs of the population.

Interesting point, but there are limits. In the UK this will be sorely tested by the long-term devolution of central powers to "local people", including parish councils.

If you choose too small a population size, then it is likely a single dominant individual to emerge. Whether that individual is "good" or "bad" is a matter of luck. In theory the democratic victor represents all their constituents; in practice that doesn't always work. A classic failure mode is that it becomes easier for "outside interests" to find and (subtly or unsubtly) bribe key people.

Thus democracy at the village level is a hit-and-miss affair, whereas at the city level it is more reliable. Where's the boundary? 10k is too small, 100k is probably large enough.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 10, 2016, 08:06:16 am
I get the impression that Brexit was largely to voice displeasure at the immigration policies being imposed on them by bureaucrats in the EU.

That was largely the swing vote used by demagogues to rouse people that don't normally vote. There is a much larger vote that is concerned with the effects of globalisation.

The latter can be summed up by a meeting discussing the economic benefits of remaining and economic problems of leaving. When presented with an argument that remain leads to increased GDP, the popular response was "that's your GDP, not my GDP".
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 10, 2016, 08:50:09 am
Having worked closely with Police in Denmark for many years - I can say until about 2012 all Danish crime stats detailing religion or origin was not allowed.
In the 1990s it was basically impossible to get official figures for how many immigrants there were in the country. There is one difference - which I think is very important - when comparing Denmark to Sweden. There is, and has been all along, a discourse about immigration and the pros and cons of it in Denmark. I think that has been instrumental in avoiding the kind of extremism that can be found in Sweden. It serves as a safety valve that makes it difficult for neo-nazi style groupings to gain traction simply because it is possible to debate the issue instead of just pretending that it doesn't exist. Not surprisingly the left regularly complains about this discourse and would prefer it could be stopped like in Sweden.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: G7PSK on July 10, 2016, 09:15:25 am
In my simple mind, if you're going to live in another country, you're expected to abide by the laws and customs of that country. Is there anything wrong with this idea?

I can't really defend the British in this regard, because we sailed the world putting our flag onto other peoples soil and claiming it for ourselves.
That Islam would repeat the same process in the 21st Century should not be unexpected, as we share basically the same supremacist ideologies.

The Muslims are not doing this for the first time, they did it in the 7th century and now see the world that they used to own as still belonging to them and they must take it back at all costs. It is their religious duty to do so or die in the attempt according to the Koran and the fundamentalist mullahs, that is what Osama bin Laden Al Qaeda, the Taliban and Isis is about and the preaching's coming out of Saudi Arabia.   
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 10, 2016, 09:38:43 am
In my simple mind, if you're going to live in another country, you're expected to abide by the laws and customs of that country. Is there anything wrong with this idea?

I can't really defend the British in this regard, because we sailed the world putting our flag onto other peoples soil and claiming it for ourselves.
That Islam would repeat the same process in the 21st Century should not be unexpected, as we share basically the same supremacist ideologies.

Islamic did just that centuries ago! We should stop apologising for ourselves. I personally never went over to any country and stuck my flag it white should I feel guilt the something I did not do? There is actually a theory that the Islamic religion was quite literally created out of nothing to unite a people which in whichever century it was but not very many after Christ united under this religion conquered much of the Mediterranean world and had an empire after the Romans had done the same. Every few centuries in our history so far a culture had spread itself either benignly or through warfare. Hopefully in our new global world we no longer need to do this in order to trade share currency and do business and generally get along. The EU started from the horror of the Second World War where tiny countries would happily go to war with each other, today this would not happen we live in a different world. Intercountry communication in those days was non-existent you couldn't communicate with people across borders except with prohibitive priced phone calls or by snail mail. These days you can have a face-to-face conversation via a Internet video link with somebody on the other side of the world at no cost.

What we need in this century is less centralisation of power but more cooperation between countries using modern tools. You will find it is people who are middle-aged and over who still hold grudges against other countries are racist and have what we generally deem to be outdated views. Younger people are much more likely to have friends abroad and be used to dealing with people around the world with out seeing any borders. Diversity doesn't have to be divisive. If we ended up with an EU state it will be so large and unmanageable it would be a nightmare and there will be one body of people making laws. On the other hand individual countries running themselves would be a lot more efficient and democratic and if one country comes up with a good way of doing something why it shouldn't the others followed suit?

I don't know how true the fact is but I read on Facebook that in Germany there is a law that in the event of a traffic jam all cars are to pull to the respective edge of the road to create an opening down the middle if it is a dual carriageway to allow emergency vehicles access. This is one of those simple laws which we should all have I don't benefit anybody directly until certain situations happen where actually you are thankful they were created it is a law that is just common sense but most people don't have common sense. Would such a law be created in a European Parliament that had to govern the whole of Europe?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 10, 2016, 09:46:04 am
What we need in this century is less centralisation of power but more cooperation between countries using modern tools.

Be careful what you wish for; you may get it.

Power finds a way. Where political power wanes, corporate power becomes ascendant. Unlike political power, corporate power is not accountable to the likes of thee and me; it is only accountable to its shareholders.

That way lies the TTIP.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 10, 2016, 09:52:04 am
What we need in this century is less centralisation of power but more cooperation between countries using modern tools.

Be careful what you wish for; you may get it.

Power finds a way. Where political power wanes, corporate power becomes ascendant. Unlike political power, corporate power is not accountable to the likes of thee and me; it is only accountable to its shareholders.

That way lies the TTIP.

Yes and that is my concern with the EU it is the one stop shop for corporations to to their deals far far away in the eyes of the people who will not even know they are being shafted but for leaks. I think these corporations should be made to deal with each and every country where the debate will happen at a national level rather than behind closed doors in the EU government. On the one hand a very sensible group of centralised people is great because it means that in one fell swoop they can disapprove of unfair rules that corporations would like but it's a double-edged sword because if and when corporations do get their way with this oversized government we all get the decision.

The problem I find is that people are not involved or interested in politics except for when it comes to complaining about their losses and they generally just blame the wrong person. Making your governance less complex and bringing the debates closer to the people I hope will inspire more people to get involved and allow more to understand what is going on. How many debates in the UK have we had about TTI P? The BBC won't even mention it by name. From my memory and I listen to a lot radio 4 stuffed full of political news I have only heard the name once or twice and it has only been referred to by name after a lot of attention was generated by grassroots organisations. If the BBC has to refer to it it usually just calls it a controversial trade deal after all we don't want to give people a name we don't want to objectify it because once you have identified it you can talk about it properly but the BBC which is the servant of our government does our government is bidding and we have a Conservative government which loves privatisation loves corporate interests and will happily let this happen without telling us about it. Obama threatened that we will be last in line for any trade deals with America will I tell you what bring it fucking on he can now stick to that not that I think he or his successors or underlings will.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 10, 2016, 10:04:27 am
You will find it is people who are middle-aged and over who still hold grudges against other countries are racist and have what we generally deem to be outdated views. Younger people are much more likely to have friends abroad and be used to dealing with people around the world with out seeing any borders.

This is just plain wrong. Racists can be any age any colour and any nationality.

I'm probably what you would think of as middle aged, I've been working with people from around the world for many years.

I don't know how true the fact is but I read on Facebook that in Germany there is a law that in the event of a traffic jam all cars are to pull to the respective edge of the road to create an opening down the middle if it is a dual carriageway to allow emergency vehicles access. This is one of those simple laws which we should all have I don't benefit anybody directly until certain situations happen where actually you are thankful they were created it is a law that is just common sense but most people don't have common sense. Would such a law be created in a European Parliament that had to govern the whole of Europe?

We most certainly don't need laws which are obvious common sense. Have you even seen how quickly people get out of the way of an ambulance in what appears to be gridlocked traffic in the UK?

Making laws on common sense issues is infantilisation of the populace. It sends a very clear message of "you're to stupid so we'll decide everything for you" and where does that then stop?

We've already seen from the referendum cries of "old people shouldn't be allowed to vote - they're all racists!", "poor people shouldn't be allowed to vote - they're too stupid!"
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 10, 2016, 10:18:49 am
You will find it is people who are middle-aged and over who still hold grudges against other countries are racist and have what we generally deem to be outdated views. Younger people are much more likely to have friends abroad and be used to dealing with people around the world with out seeing any borders.

This is just plain wrong. Racists can be any age any colour and any nationality.

I'm probably what you would think of as middle aged, I've been working with people from around the world for many years.

I don't know how true the fact is but I read on Facebook that in Germany there is a law that in the event of a traffic jam all cars are to pull to the respective edge of the road to create an opening down the middle if it is a dual carriageway to allow emergency vehicles access. This is one of those simple laws which we should all have I don't benefit anybody directly until certain situations happen where actually you are thankful they were created it is a law that is just common sense but most people don't have common sense. Would such a law be created in a European Parliament that had to govern the whole of Europe?

We most certainly don't need laws which are obvious common sense. Have you even seen how quickly people get out of the way of an ambulance in what appears to be gridlocked traffic in the UK?

Making laws on common sense issues is infantilisation of the populace. It sends a very clear message of "you're to stupid so we'll decide everything for you" and where does that then stop?

We've already seen from the referendum cries of "old people shouldn't be allowed to vote - they're all racists!", "poor people shouldn't be allowed to vote - they're too stupid!"

I'm not saying that all middle-aged and older people are racist et cetera what I'm saying is that they were around in a time when Europe and the world was less connected and more divided and that if you compare the amount of people who are older to those who are younger that distrust Europe et cetera you will find that it is the older ones that have more mistrust because of history and they may yet be right young people so far have grown up in a free and connected world where they don't see the barriers that older people grew up with. I don't particularly endorse anything that anybody is saying about the referendum because at the moment everybody is only seeing their angle.

Yes I have seen how fast people move out of the way of emergency vehicles, most panic and don't know what to do for example they just slow down despite there being nowhere for the vehicle to overtake many don't seem to give a toss. I seem to be one of the few people that has an inbuilt "interrupted request" that responds immediately to the suggestion of a blue light or siren sound and immediately no matter how far away or how blocked up the traffic is seek to find where it is coming from and where it is trying to go to. I've not forgotten sitting in blocked traffic in my local town and being the car 20 cars ahead of the ambulance that had to show the ones with the ambulance right behind them that if they just pulled up onto the pavement the ambulance would be able to get through the clearing in fact started from further away from the ambulance not from right in front of it. The comments I saw on Facebook was actually about dual Carriageway's where when traffic grinds to a halt there is no way for anybody but a motorbike to get past unless it's a motorway with a hard shoulder and if you listen to the news we are already talking about cutting costs and using motorway hard shoulders as main lanes so if on a dual carriageway with no dedicated emergency access the cars on the inner Lane pulled to the inner curve and the cars on the outer lane called as far over as they could it will create a lane down the middle for things like ambulances. I have sat in many a traffic jam and indeed we all just sit there and it would take an emergency vehicle a long time to plough its way through. In this country too many people are brought up to think they are the centre of the universe and nobody gives a toss about anybody. Sometimes I miss living in Italy.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: george.b on July 10, 2016, 10:34:16 am
In my simple mind, if you're going to live in another country, you're expected to abide by the laws and customs of that country. Is there anything wrong with this idea?

I can't really defend the British in this regard, because we sailed the world putting our flag onto other peoples soil and claiming it for ourselves.
That Islam would repeat the same process in the 21st Century should not be unexpected, as we share basically the same supremacist ideologies.

Who is "we"? Who still claims whose soil?
Are present-day Brits to blame for what Brits did in the past?
The fact that Britain has invaded other countries in the past means it should accept invasion as something positive today?
???
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 10, 2016, 10:41:51 am
In my simple mind, if you're going to live in another country, you're expected to abide by the laws and customs of that country. Is there anything wrong with this idea?

I can't really defend the British in this regard, because we sailed the world putting our flag onto other peoples soil and claiming it for ourselves.
That Islam would repeat the same process in the 21st Century should not be unexpected, as we share basically the same supremacist ideologies.

Who is "we"? Who still claims whose soil?
Are present-day Brits to blame for what Brits did in the past?
The fact that Britain has invaded other countries in the past means it should accept invasion as something positive today?
???

Quite so. We could have a go at the Egyptians those who now live in what was Mesopotamia, Rome, Turkey, Palestine (for any avoidance of doubt the old Islamic Empire which conquered much of South Europe), Germany and anybody else who in the last 5000 years went into somebody else's country. Fact is we used to do things in a certain way, fact is we don't do that anymore.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on July 10, 2016, 10:44:35 am
another said that it was just so unfair that young african-americans were disproportionately killed by police.

People need to watch the youtube videos for all these killings and note the behaviour of the African-Americans involved.

In many cases they are arguing back, running around or behaving erratically. Basically not complying.
I believe that this is a cultural difference that white cops find unnerving, so they shoot first.
(it's racist too, obvs, but that's too simplistic I feel)

White people I think are more likely to sit there and comply, possibly because they don't feel the same level of threat that black people do in the same situation.

I note a recent case of a white person arguing back, behaving erratically and basically not complying.
He was Tasered to death.

It's not always skin colour that gets you shot, but acting like a dickhead will always work.

Police corpses in other countries manage to deal with erratic behaviour during traffic controls without the shooting.

All of this doesn't *have* to happen.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: george.b on July 10, 2016, 10:49:20 am
Police corpses in other countries manage to deal with erratic behaviour during traffic controls without the shooting.

Forgive me for imagining zombie policemen doing traffic control ;D
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on July 10, 2016, 10:53:28 am
yeah :) I may have translated that one a little too literally from Dutch
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 10, 2016, 11:17:26 am
All of th arguments arguments below point towards the TTIP being less likely in the EU and more likely in the UK.

What we need in this century is less centralisation of power but more cooperation between countries using modern tools.

Be careful what you wish for; you may get it.

Power finds a way. Where political power wanes, corporate power becomes ascendant. Unlike political power, corporate power is not accountable to the likes of thee and me; it is only accountable to its shareholders.

That way lies the TTIP.

Yes and that is my concern with the EU it is the one stop shop for corporations to to their deals far far away in the eyes of the people who will not even know they are being shafted but for leaks.

Exactly the same point can be made about any one country. So that isn't a valid point against the EU.

It is also easier for corporations to bribe/bludgeon/ignore politicans in one country than in 28 countries.


Quote
I think these corporations should be made to deal with each and every country where the debate will happen at a national level rather than behind closed doors in the EU government.

Any such debate would be behind closed doors in the individual countries. So that isn't a valid point against the EU.


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On the one hand a very sensible group of centralised people is great because it means that in one fell swoop they can disapprove of unfair rules that corporations would like but it's a double-edged sword because if and when corporations do get their way with this oversized government we all get the decision.

In the EU each country has slightly different internal politics, so even if X appeals to one or more countries, it is more or less guaranteed that some group somewhere will raise the alarm. Think of it as the political equivalent of FOSS's "many eyes".

Note that the French politicians (and some others) are currently against the TTIP, whereas many of our politicians are in favour of it.


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The problem I find is that people are not involved or interested in politics except for when it comes to complaining about their losses and they generally just blame the wrong person. Making your governance less complex and bringing the debates closer to the people I hope will inspire more people to get involved and allow more to understand what is going on. How many debates in the UK have we had about TTI P? The BBC won't even mention it by name. From my memory and I listen to a lot radio 4 stuffed full of political news I have only heard the name once or twice and it has only been referred to by name after a lot of attention was generated by grassroots organisations. If the BBC has to refer to it it usually just calls it a controversial trade deal after all we don't want to give people a name we don't want to objectify it because once you have identified it you can talk about it properly but the BBC which is the servant of our government does our government is bidding and we have a Conservative government which loves privatisation loves corporate interests and will happily let this happen without telling us about it. Obama threatened that we will be last in line for any trade deals with America will I tell you what bring it fucking on he can now stick to that not that I think he or his successors or underlings will.

I don't follow that chain of reasoning. But I do agree about people blaming the wrong thing - blaming the EU in this case.

If you look at local politics (down to the town level) about local issues that directly affect local people, they still don't get involved. Why would that be any different at a national level?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 10, 2016, 11:32:45 am
The problem is that the too long people have grown up having it too good. People only start to take note when they are being directly affected and having being mollycoddled and taught to compete with their neighbours they obey unquestioningly and ignore everything else around them. I believe we can thank Maggie Thatcher for that.

The problem with big decisions made in the EU is that they are very remote. The only things I have heard about TTI P have come from grass roots organisations not from my politicians who officially have no access to the dealings in fact even my MEP has no access to the dealings and severe restrictions were put on MEPs viewing the information. I am sorry but I deem this untenable and unworkable if this is how the EU is working in reality then I'm afraid is not fit for purpose and I'm glad we are out. By that I am not saying that our own politics are any better the problem we also have in this debate is that by complaining about one party we are assumed to be lauding another which is totally wrong. I have no faith in any political structure at the moment and the only way of getting any faith is to get some sort of say and see change and it is more probable that that will happen at a lower level than a higher level. All I have heard is that the EU is wonderful that we admit there are flaws and we should reform it but so far nobody has come up with a plan to reform it so I think we are best out.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 10, 2016, 11:42:03 am
I agree with much of what you say and your motivations.
I don't see the EU being the cause of the problem.
I do see the EU being where the problem is manifested, because that's where the relevant power lies.
When the relevant power lies in the UK, exactly the same problems will manifest themselves in the UK.

Summary: I agree with your starting point, but your conclusions are misguided and won't solve the cause of your (and my) dissatisfaction.

Corollary: when the majority of brexiteers realise they were sold something under false pretenses and their dissatisfaction isn't going to be addressed, where will they turn? That's what happened in the 1930s Weimar Republic, and look how that ended :(


The problem is that the too long people have grown up having it too good. People only start to take note when they are being directly affected and having being mollycoddled and taught to compete with their neighbours they obey unquestioningly and ignore everything else around them. I believe we can thank Maggie Thatcher for that.

The problem with big decisions made in the EU is that they are very remote. The only things I have heard about TTI P have come from grass roots organisations not from my politicians who officially have no access to the dealings in fact even my MEP has no access to the dealings and severe restrictions were put on MEPs viewing the information. I am sorry but I deem this untenable and unworkable if this is how the EU is working in reality then I'm afraid is not fit for purpose and I'm glad we are out. By that I am not saying that our own politics are any better the problem we also have in this debate is that by complaining about one party we are assumed to be lauding another which is totally wrong. I have no faith in any political structure at the moment and the only way of getting any faith is to get some sort of say and see change and it is more probable that that will happen at a lower level than a higher level. All I have heard is that the EU is wonderful that we admit there are flaws and we should reform it but so far nobody has come up with a plan to reform it so I think we are best out.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 10, 2016, 11:57:23 am
Remember the UK is much further down this road than Sweden
So Sweden isn't in such a bad shape after all.
Phew, I was beginning to think I might have to emigrate! :phew:

To vote for SD is the same as declaring that you are not a decent person (might even be objectively true  ::) ). But even without going with the SD, you wouldn't want other people to think that you are one of "nassarna" (i.e., the nazis) by voicing critical opinions on immigration. PC is a strong force.
We call them nazis because they are nazis. That's what the Danish don't understand about the Swedish radical right. 30 years ago SD was openly nazi sympatisers. Denmark is a bit naive in this regard. Look at what happened in Norway. The extreme right is de facto a bigger threat than isis in Scandinavia, but it get less attention.

Having worked closely with Police in Denmark for many years - I can say until about 2012 all Danish crime stats detailing religion or origin was not allowed.
In the 1990s it was basically impossible to get official figures for how many immigrants there were in the country. There is one difference - which I think is very important - when comparing Denmark to Sweden. There is, and has been all along, a discourse about immigration and the pros and cons of it in Denmark. I think that has been instrumental in avoiding the kind of extremism that can be found in Sweden. It serves as a safety valve that makes it difficult for neo-nazi style groupings to gain traction simply because it is possible to debate the issue instead of just pretending that it doesn't exist. Not surprisingly the left regularly complains about this discourse and would prefer it could be stopped like in Sweden.
That is a common point of view in Sweden as well, and there might be some truth to it, but it's far from as simple as that. The facist/nazi groups in Sweden have been active here long before the Iraq war caused refugees to seek safe harbor in EU, the refugees just gave them something to whine about. The fact is, SD does not have more support in Sweden than DF in Denmark, or similar parties all over Europe. They have been growing all over Europe regardless of the immigration policies or how much immigration has been discussed.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 10, 2016, 12:15:36 pm
I agree with much of what you say and your motivations.
I don't see the EU being the cause of the problem.
I do see the EU being where the problem is manifested, because that's where the relevant power lies.
When the relevant power lies in the UK, exactly the same problems will manifest themselves in the UK.

Summary: I agree with your starting point, but your conclusions are misguided and won't solve the cause of your (and my) dissatisfaction.


Indeed the EU itself is not a problem it's a wonderful idea. The problem is people our so-called politicians. Politics is a popularity contest politicians don't do system engineering and that is what running a country should be about. You have a system and you have to manage it and the system breaks down into subsystems with their own managers but instead we make policies that are popular but not good because people are not interested in what is right people are interested in what they have decided is right for them and that is not generally in the interest of everybody else. As we are not grown-up enough to have a political system that covers such a wide area I think that at the moment we are much safer and better off having smaller political systems that learn from each other and cooperate. When the day comes that we have all realised that we are doing in the same way then maybe it is time for us to unite. Once we have united and got things done properly then and only then it would be time to have a common currency. Instead we have done things totally and utterly backwards. We have created a superstate of countries that are not suited to sit together yet we have introduced a common currency while the countries belonging to this currency are wildly different. The EU has become a way of influencing the countries that join it for better or worse not a system in which a number of equal and modern countries sit together and work together. If country needs its people to emigrate in mass something is wrong with that country. Nobody has yet so maybe statistics of how many people leave the UK for work and how many people are leaving other countries for work. Why do people within the EU a political union of so-called equal countries need to move from one side of the EU to the other? Isn't this a contradiction of the EU? There is freedom of movement and there is high levels of immigration the EU seems to confuse them terribly. And now we confuse trade deals with corporate empire. The EU in my opinion is not working overall. I'm sure many parts of it worked beautifully and many people in EU politics are good people but I'm afraid overall I do not feel it is working. I'm not against the concept but we need to grow up 1st both as a society and politically.

In my mad world I would make a law that anybody entering politics needs to have an engineering qualification or a background in engineering preferably of the systems and integration type. Popularity contests don't help anybody but the people winning or losing them. Our referendum has been a clear example of that people did not vote for the issue they voted for the person and in many cases they voted for people who have now dropped everything and ran.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 10, 2016, 12:17:46 pm
We call them nazis because they are nazis. That's what the Danish don't understand about the Swedish radical right. 30 years ago SD was openly nazi sympatisers. Denmark is a bit naive in this regard.
Oh, we know that they are and that there have been nazis in Sweden since the very beginning of that movement. In Denmark nazism never really got a foothold. The various groupings even during the German occupation, like the DNSAP, The Anti Jewish League, etc., didn't even have the support of the occupiers. The present day groups are so few and weak that they aren't even worth taking seriously.

The fact is, SD does not have more support in Sweden than DF in Denmark, or similar parties all over Europe. They have been growing all over Europe regardless of the immigration policies or how much immigration has been discussed.
SD and DF aren't really comparable(*). DF routinely rid themselves of true extremists and are in many ways more akin to the social democrats. They don't have the same roots as SD. But that is beside the point which is that the lack of discourse in Sweden makes it easier for fringe groupings with anti-democratic views to fester in the dark and grow ever more extreme; because there is no safety valve - no moderate outlet for discontent - all in the name of PC and sitting on high horses.

(*) Addendum: DF is in the ECR group in the European Parliament, like the Tories.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 10, 2016, 12:24:33 pm
In the UK we have Britain 1st and there are a number of other similar groups. I think Britain 1st has actually registered as a political party. The UK Independence party that was headed by Nigel Farage was extremely borderline and he was often accused of dog whistle politics. In fact he had a cunning habit of saying something that sounded controversial and then getting a chance to clarify himself so for every time he opened his mouth he actually got into the media twice and of course a lot taught about him and his party. I hope that without him the UK Independence party falls to pieces. Although it has matured slightly as a political party I don't really see any need for it it is just a further right wing version of the Tory party. Or rather it's the Tory party for poor people.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 10, 2016, 01:05:49 pm
Not worrying about unchanging human characteristics, but concentrating on just one point..

I agree with much of what you say and your motivations.
I don't see the EU being the cause of the problem.
I do see the EU being where the problem is manifested, because that's where the relevant power lies.
When the relevant power lies in the UK, exactly the same problems will manifest themselves in the UK.

Summary: I agree with your starting point, but your conclusions are misguided and won't solve the cause of your (and my) dissatisfaction.

We have created a superstate of countries that are not suited to sit together yet we have introduced a common currency while the countries belonging to this currency are wildly different.

That raises the question of what's the "right size" for a currency. Sunderland's and London's economies are wildly different and people move between them - why not have separate currencies and immigration borders?


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Our referendum has been a clear example of that people did not vote for the issue they voted for the person and in many cases they voted for people who have now dropped everything and ran.

Yes indeed. As many of us predicted :(
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 10, 2016, 01:10:30 pm
Well I'm no economist but it's pretty clear to me that we should not meddle with the current status when it comes to currencies. I'm not particularly a lover of big cities so I don't quite get for example why London is much more expensive but if there was ever an argument to be made I would say that we should vote for London to become independent to piss off and fund itself. But all capitals are the same. The value of money in different areas of the country does seem to be supply and demand based on how nice that part of the country years or how many jobs there are.

The whole political and economic situation each country has is born out of its history and for the EU to come along and unite them all with one currency is just pointless. And you can make the same argument for the ability to migrate. Just now I was listening to a programme about ethnic minorities moving out of areas they traditionally lived in the UK to other areas of the UK. This is something that we can just look at and discuss in one country but when it's happening across different countries it starts to be more of just a point of discussion can become a problem. We have no jobs here we have no land so why do some political factions seem to think that every man and his dog come over here? Will they still hold the same beliefs when we are one person to every 10 m²? Sometimes I wonder.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 10, 2016, 01:17:19 pm
The fact is, SD does not have more support in Sweden than DF in Denmark, or similar parties all over Europe. They have been growing all over Europe regardless of the immigration policies or how much immigration has been discussed.
SD and DF aren't really comparable(*). DF routinely rid themselves of true extremists and are in many ways more akin to the social democrats. They don't have the same roots as SD. But that is beside the point which is that the lack of discourse in Sweden makes it easier for fringe groupings with anti-democratic views to fester in the dark and grow ever more extreme; because there is no safety valve - no moderate outlet for discontent - all in the name of PC and sitting on high horses.

(*) Addendum: DF is in the ECR group in the European Parliament, like the Tories.
I agree it's a different situation in Denmark. That is why SD have been treated differently in Sweden than DF in Denmark. It is not because of political correctness. A similar thing is happening all over Europe, if it was because of some sort of special Swedish political correctness it should only happen in Sweden, but it's not, so it can't be that. In fact, the radical right are complaining about political correctness, real or imagined, in all countries these days. It's simply an effective piece of propaganda.

It took DF a long time to realize what SD is. DF used to be buddies with SD, they supported SD until a few years ago, giving them money and helped them with propaganda, etc. I still think maybe Denmark are a bit naive about DF as well since you have been spared the kind of extremism that Sweden have had to cope with since the war. SD also claims to "routinely rid themselves of true extremists", using much of the same rhetoric that DF have used, and they are now about the same size (i.e. they appeal to the same demographics). And as I said, the same thing is happening in rest of Europe, and the US/Canada, it's an international phenomena.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 10, 2016, 01:27:33 pm
It took DF a long time to realize what SD is. DF used to be buddies with SD, they supported SD until a few years ago, giving them money and helped them with propaganda, etc. I still think maybe Denmark are a bit naive about DF as well since you have been spared the kind of extremism that Sweden have had to cope with since the war. SD also claims to "routinely rid themselves of true extremists", using much of the same rhetoric that DF have used, and they are now about the same size (i.e. they appeal to the same demographics). And as I said, the same thing is happening in rest of Europe, and the US/Canada, it's an international phenomena.
The apparent importance and influence of DF is greatly inflated in the Swedish political discourse where it used as a boogeyman. Should they ever manage to become part of a coalition government, they would very likely crash and burn in internal quarrels much like the Socialist People's Party (SF) did when they were in a coalition government with Social Democrats and the Social Liberals from 2011-2014. The strain of having to compromise was too much for them to bear and they ended up crawling back to where they came from. I think the same will happen to DF and I also think they they know it. It is easier to yell from the sidelines than to take responsibility.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 10, 2016, 02:53:42 pm
Well I'm no economist but it's pretty clear to me that we should not meddle with the current status when it comes to currencies.

Why not? You are sufficient of an economist to say the euro is "wrong", and "meddling with" currencies is not new - and it continues.

What's so perfect about the current status? Why wouldn't it be better for Sunderland if they had their own currency? If you have have a reason to believe one currency is right/wrong, then you also have sufficient information to say why a Sunderland Pound is wrong/right.

For some alternatives, some of which are already operating, some of which are backed by sterling, consider

And then there's the movement to enable local high-street businesses to do their business abroad, just like the multinationals.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 10, 2016, 03:01:39 pm
Well I'm no economist but it's pretty clear to me that we should not meddle with the current status when it comes to currencies.

Why not? You are sufficient of an economist to say the euro is "wrong", and "meddling with" currencies is not new - and it continues.

What's so perfect about the current status? Why wouldn't it be better for Sunderland if they had their own currency? If you have have a reason to believe one currency is right/wrong, then you also have sufficient information to say why a Sunderland Pound is wrong/right.

For some alternatives, some of which are already operating, some of which are backed by sterling, consider
  • http://bristolpound.org/ (http://bristolpound.org/) Slogan: "Our city. Our Pound"
  • http://www.totnespound.org/ (http://www.totnespound.org/)
  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewes_Pound (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewes_Pound) previously active 1789-1895, now active again
  • http://brixtonpound.org/ (http://brixtonpound.org/)
  • http://www.exeterpound.org.uk/ (http://www.exeterpound.org.uk/)
  • http://cardiffpound.co.uk/ (http://cardiffpound.co.uk/)
  • http://kingstonpound.org/ (http://kingstonpound.org/)

And then there's the movement to enable local high-street businesses to do their business abroad, just like the multinationals.


Natural and people driven progressions are one thing a barely stable political powerhouse enforcing a new currency over a group of countries not ready for it is totally different. I'm not sure what you mean about high-street doing business abroad. I do know there is a movement of local shops trying to form a group so that they are powerful enough to either register themselves in a tax haven or demand better treatment from the tax authorities just like big business. Their aim is not actually to follow through with this but to threatened and demonstrate to the government that if we all do not pay our fair share there will be nothing left.

The Bristol Pound for example looks more like a membership scheme that allows discounts you essentially accrue your membership points by spending in the local community and getting back a type of money that can only be spent in the town so they have effectively devalued themselves by a small amount to try and encourage people to spend the money in the town rather than outside. I don't think this is the sort of currency situations we are talking about it is more of a movement to promote local shopping which is something I myself do believe in and do do but I don't go out and spend Rushden pounds because Rushden does not have its own pound and that does not stop me preferring to shop in local shops. For example I paid £240 for 3 sets of curtains but one of those sets was completely made from scratch by the lady in the shop and the other 2 sets she had to shorten from a off-the-shelf pack so I provided some local work rather than buying my curtains from a shop that would have made them entirely made in China. This was of course a very expensive exercise and now I have just acquired 2 kittens I am deeply worried my investment is going to go down the drain pretty quickly and I could not afford to spend so much locally again on the same items.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on July 10, 2016, 03:23:07 pm
Are present-day Brits to blame for what Brits did in the past?
We should stop apologising for ourselves. I personally never went over to any country and stuck my flag it white should I feel guilt the something I did not do?

That wasn't what I meant.

Simply that if you are going to import other cultures then you can expect them to want to live at they would at home. In the case of the present cultures of literal Islam that involves a whole pile of retrograde practices.
I think what the Left expected is that all this would fit seamlessly into British culture and nobody would mind. What should have happened is that all their offensive cultural baggage like FGM, burkas, sharia, praying in the street etc should have been banned from the outset.

If you want the British to visit your country, then it's likely that some of them will drink excessively and be a noisy pain. If you permit them to do this because you don't want to offend their cultural preferences, then that's your problem. What you should do is kick them out.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 10, 2016, 03:27:32 pm
Yes I do rather object to immigrant ghettos where you have entire housing estates full of people from one culture keep to themselves and live their own way. Presumably if it wasn't for economic reasons and it was true freedom of movement people came here because they like this country and our way of life if that is the case they can bloodily well live by it if they want to live like they are in the middle of the African desert they should go back there. I believe tourists visiting various countries are often required to respect their culture this is a thing that should work both ways.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 10, 2016, 03:37:23 pm
Well I'm no economist but it's pretty clear to me that we should not meddle with the current status when it comes to currencies.

Why not? You are sufficient of an economist to say the euro is "wrong", and "meddling with" currencies is not new - and it continues.

What's so perfect about the current status? Why wouldn't it be better for Sunderland if they had their own currency? If you have have a reason to believe one currency is right/wrong, then you also have sufficient information to say why a Sunderland Pound is wrong/right.

For some alternatives, some of which are already operating, some of which are backed by sterling, consider
  • http://bristolpound.org/ (http://bristolpound.org/) Slogan: "Our city. Our Pound"
  • http://www.totnespound.org/ (http://www.totnespound.org/)
  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewes_Pound (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewes_Pound) previously active 1789-1895, now active again
  • http://brixtonpound.org/ (http://brixtonpound.org/)
  • http://www.exeterpound.org.uk/ (http://www.exeterpound.org.uk/)
  • http://cardiffpound.co.uk/ (http://cardiffpound.co.uk/)
  • http://kingstonpound.org/ (http://kingstonpound.org/)

And then there's the movement to enable local high-street businesses to do their business abroad, just like the multinationals.

I'm not sure what you mean about high-street doing business abroad. I do know there is a movement of local shops trying to form a group so that they are powerful enough to either register themselves in a tax haven or demand better treatment from the tax authorities just like big business.

That's the idea.

Quote
The Bristol Pound for example looks more like a membership scheme that allows discounts you essentially accrue your membership points by spending in the local community and getting back a type of money that can only be spent in the town so they have effectively devalued themselves by a small amount to try and encourage people to spend the money in the town rather than outside.

Nope, it is more than that...
I can pay my council tax in Bristol Pounds: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-24130847 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-24130847)
"From Goldbrick House to Blackboy Hill Cycles, more than 300 of Bristol’s independent traders [will] welcome the Bristol Pound alongside sterling." http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/bristol-pound-point/story-16935709-detail/story.html (http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/bristol-pound-point/story-16935709-detail/story.html)
Mayor takes salary in Bristol Pounds(!) https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/nov/20/mayor-salary-bristol-pounds (https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/nov/20/mayor-salary-bristol-pounds)

So, again I ask: "What's so perfect about the current status? Why wouldn't it be better for Sunderland if they had their own currency? If you have have a reason to believe one currency is right/wrong, then you also have sufficient information to say why a Sunderland Pound is wrong/right."
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 10, 2016, 03:41:11 pm
Yes I do rather object to immigrant ghettos where you have entire housing estates full of people from one culture keep to themselves and live their own way.

Well, when we emigrated to and ruled the British Empire, we lived in immigrant ghettos. And that wasn't due to poverty!

But I agree, ghettos are not a good thing.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 10, 2016, 03:41:24 pm
So what is the value of this currency? How many pounds is a pound from Bristol or Sunderland or where ever worth? does that is value go up and down?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 10, 2016, 03:44:49 pm
Yes I do rather object to immigrant ghettos where you have entire housing estates full of people from one culture keep to themselves and live their own way.

Well, when we emigrated to and ruled the British Empire, we lived in immigrant ghettos. And that wasn't due to poverty!

But I agree, ghettos are not a good thing.

And as I said before I would hope we don't do things like that anymore. Although I have to say when I lived in Italy all the English and other foreign people seem to live down the same road although this would generally be a country road with various houses on it that they had bought. When you have Indians killing their daughter because she wanted to integrate into British culture you have a big big problem. I'm not saying I expect people to lose their identity and forget where they came from but expecting to run by rules and laws of their own religions or countries is not acceptable and trying to prevent their children from integrating is not acceptable. We used to have a supervisor at work who is Indian and he pretty much hated everybody who is British and if he had his way would have replaced them all with Indians. He has left and somebody else has taking over his role but the machine shop still needed a new person as that was where he worked as well as being a supervisor stop another Indian person has joined us but he is totally different embraces our way of living he still has the identity and he showed us that by buying a particular type of Indian delicacy when there was an Indian religious festival but he doesn't act as though he is something different from us his attitude is totally different from the previous guy.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 10, 2016, 03:52:32 pm
So what is the value of this currency? How many pounds is a pound from Bristol or Sunderland or where ever worth? That is value go up and down?

Answers don't affect the question as to the right "size" of a currency area (but see FAQs if you wish).

So, again I ask: "What's so perfect about the current status? Why wouldn't it be better for Sunderland if they had their own currency? If you have have a reason to believe one currency is right/wrong, then you also have sufficient information to say why a Sunderland Pound is wrong/right."
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 10, 2016, 03:55:50 pm
Yes I do rather object to immigrant ghettos where you have entire housing estates full of people from one culture keep to themselves and live their own way.

Well, when we emigrated to and ruled the British Empire, we lived in immigrant ghettos. And that wasn't due to poverty!

But I agree, ghettos are not a good thing.

And as I said before I would hope we don't do things like that anymore.

But, as you point out, we continue to do just that.

Quote
Although I have to say when I lived in Italy all the English and other foreign people seem to live down the same road although this would generally be a country road with various houses on it that they had bought.

Mensch ist mensch. People are people. Human behaviour doesn't change. Chiantishire. The Costas. Etc, etc.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on July 10, 2016, 03:56:45 pm
We call them nazis because they are nazis. That's what the Danish don't understand about the Swedish radical right. 30 years ago SD was openly nazi sympatisers. Denmark is a bit naive in this regard. Look at what happened in Norway. The extreme right is de facto a bigger threat than isis in Scandinavia, but it get less attention.

You seriously compare the current crop of far right organisations to the Nazis?
Well it's a nice sound bite but it's pretty devoid of reality.

What you have is no different to any other country in Europe, everyone has a standing population of say 20% of voters who are essentially xenophobic.
Britain has about 25%, with about 0.1% that you could describe as far right, and of that maybe a few hundred actual neo nazis who like to pose in front of flags or whatever.
France has consistently always had a larger xenophobic voter base, but still only around 30%

The groups you imagine are "Nazis" are little more than pressure groups wishing for less immigration and a return to something like the 1950's in terms of values.
That's it - No death camps, no invasions, no master race, no marching in formation.

Actually the nearest we come to Nazi ideology is the current demonisation of Jews within Corbyn's so called progressive Labour party.

Even the term "racist", so loved by the New Totalitarian Left, is utterly meaningless. What people generally feel disgruntled with is the friction from other alien cultures.
But then calling the working class "racist" and "nazi" has always been a more efficient way of censoring debate, than calling someone "anti-cultural".


"The extreme right is de facto a bigger threat than ISIS in Scandinavia"

Err, what do you imagine the extreme right are going to do? Wear horned helmets in public and pillage the local supermarket?

This is what the ISIS supporters in Sweden are already doing to you:
https://swedenreport.org/2014/10/29/swedish-police-55-official-no-go-zones/ (https://swedenreport.org/2014/10/29/swedish-police-55-official-no-go-zones/)

Prisoners in your own country, what a joke.

By ignoring the problem, Sweden is naively contributing at least another 300 ISIS terrorists to the world
http://www.sakerhetspolisen.se/download/18.4f0385ee143058a61a89f3/1392294843261/Reportonviolence-promotingIslamistextremisminSweden.pdf (http://www.sakerhetspolisen.se/download/18.4f0385ee143058a61a89f3/1392294843261/Reportonviolence-promotingIslamistextremisminSweden.pdf)



Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 10, 2016, 03:56:57 pm
Well like I said I'm no economist but to me if pound equals a pound it's not exactly a different currency it's more of a local movement to promote shopping and dealing with in the local area. The euro is something totally different. The euro unites different countries of different economic strengths and it did so overnight. The some reason the strength of a currency is linked to the strength of its government so how can you have a coherent single currency when the collective of nations that back it have a constantly shifting economic power between them? I'm not saying a unique currency is a bad thing it actually bloodily helpful but given that the strength of the currency is linked to the government that backs it the euro will only truly work and not be a problem when you do have a United States of Europe which we don't at the moment. If we all grew up and our politicians also grew up and we decided as a people not just as governments that we all wanted to live by the same laws and do things the same way then a common currency would make sense. As things stand it seems to either benefit certain people and disadvantaged others or just create a general shambles.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 10, 2016, 04:02:22 pm
Yes I do rather object to immigrant ghettos where you have entire housing estates full of people from one culture keep to themselves and live their own way.

Well, when we emigrated to and ruled the British Empire, we lived in immigrant ghettos. And that wasn't due to poverty!

But I agree, ghettos are not a good thing.

And as I said before I would hope we don't do things like that anymore.

But, as you point out, we continue to do just that.

Quote
Although I have to say when I lived in Italy all the English and other foreign people seem to live down the same road although this would generally be a country road with various houses on it that they had bought.

Mensch ist mensch. People are people. Human behaviour doesn't change. Chiantishire. The Costas. Etc, etc.

Well we certainly don't expect to drive on the left-hand side of the road do we? I am of course talking of a single experience of a single area and it should also be remembered that other countries are not as welcoming to immigrants as we are and I can say that because I was an immigrant in somebody else's country and for 14 years I suffered harassment and was bullied because I was not from the local area despite the fact I am partly Italian but then most people did not even realise where I was actually from and didn't know that I was related to one of the most important families in the area at 1 point people thought I was Albanese because they are so ignorant in southern Italy that all foreigners come from the country that at the moment is supplying most of the immigration they haven't even got to the point of being able to differentiate between cultures. So on balance I would actually say that it's no surprise people would want to live with other people that they felt comfortable with. What they should however do is endeavour to learn the language and interact with people which I'm afraid not all do but you can say the same for people who come to the UK they live in closed communities and don't bother to learn English and then we are the ones who have to fund foreign speaking police officers just so that we can sort their shit out and understand their interpretation of our laws.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: george.b on July 10, 2016, 06:00:14 pm
Quote
The extreme right is de facto a bigger threat than isis in Scandinavia

Hahah, yeah, you keep telling yourself that.

Quote
Look at what happened in Norway.

What, this?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3528236/Male-Norwegian-politician-raped-asylum-seeker-says-feels-GUILTY-attacker-deported-man-suffer-Somalia.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3528236/Male-Norwegian-politician-raped-asylum-seeker-says-feels-GUILTY-attacker-deported-man-suffer-Somalia.html)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 10, 2016, 06:27:11 pm
Yes I do rather object to immigrant ghettos where you have entire housing estates full of people from one culture keep to themselves and live their own way.

Well, when we emigrated to and ruled the British Empire, we lived in immigrant ghettos. And that wasn't due to poverty!

But I agree, ghettos are not a good thing.

And as I said before I would hope we don't do things like that anymore.

But, as you point out, we continue to do just that.

Quote
Although I have to say when I lived in Italy all the English and other foreign people seem to live down the same road although this would generally be a country road with various houses on it that they had bought.

Mensch ist mensch. People are people. Human behaviour doesn't change. Chiantishire. The Costas. Etc, etc.

Well we certainly don't expect to drive on the left-hand side of the road do we? I am of course talking of a single experience of a single area and it should also be remembered that other countries are not as welcoming to immigrants as we are and I can say that because I was an immigrant in somebody else's country and for 14 years I suffered harassment and was bullied because I was not from the local area despite the fact I am partly Italian but then most people did not even realise where I was actually from and didn't know that I was related to one of the most important families in the area at 1 point people thought I was Albanese because they are so ignorant in southern Italy that all foreigners come from the country that at the moment is supplying most of the immigration they haven't even got to the point of being able to differentiate between cultures. So on balance I would actually say that it's no surprise people would want to live with other people that they felt comfortable with. What they should however do is endeavour to learn the language and interact with people which I'm afraid not all do but you can say the same for people who come to the UK they live in closed communities and don't bother to learn English and then we are the ones who have to fund foreign speaking police officers just so that we can sort their shit out and understand their interpretation of our laws.

In the British Empire we didn't bother to learn johnny foreigner's lingo; indeed we went one step further forced them to learn English! On the Costas many shops sell marmite, full English breakfasts, and Watney's red barrel :)

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 10, 2016, 06:31:27 pm
Well like I said I'm no economist but to me if pound equals a pound it's not exactly a different currency it's more of a local movement to promote shopping and dealing with in the local area. The euro is something totally different. The euro unites different countries of different economic strengths and it did so overnight. The some reason the strength of a currency is linked to the strength of its government so how can you have a coherent single currency when the collective of nations that back it have a constantly shifting economic power between them? I'm not saying a unique currency is a bad thing it actually bloodily helpful but given that the strength of the currency is linked to the government that backs it the euro will only truly work and not be a problem when you do have a United States of Europe which we don't at the moment. If we all grew up and our politicians also grew up and we decided as a people not just as governments that we all wanted to live by the same laws and do things the same way then a common currency would make sense. As things stand it seems to either benefit certain people and disadvantaged others or just create a general shambles.

You're struggling towards answering "what's the right size of a currency", and are almost there. Unfortunately the answer will have consequences you haven't anticipated if this happens: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/10/brexit-vote-paves-way-for-federal-union-says-all-party-group (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/10/brexit-vote-paves-way-for-federal-union-says-all-party-group)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 10, 2016, 06:31:45 pm
And I don't object to foreign food unlike many Brits. Although I would never consider myself Italian I eat plenty of Italian food and will happily regale anybody with tales of how good it is as opposed to the muck we eat. I will happily eat foods from other nations. The problem arises when we have groups of people who remain isolated and expect to continue in the ways of their own country even if these are incompatible with those of the country they are in. When I lived in Italy I learned to speak Italian I was not given any special treatment other than the teacher getting various classmates to help me but no extra teaching staff were paid to teach myself or my sister and we were expected to learn the language as we did. We went right through school in Italian did all of the exams and came out with Italian qualifications for what they are totally not worth not that English qualifications are worth that much anymore anyway. I am fluent in Italian.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 10, 2016, 06:37:17 pm
The problem arises when we have groups of people who remain isolated and expect to continue in the ways of their own country even if these are incompatible with those of the country they are in.

Well, we certainly did that in the British Empire. On purpose. Because we had won God's lottery by merely by being born British.

Doesn't make it right or justifiable, of course, but realising that should temper our attitudes.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 10, 2016, 06:39:04 pm
Well like I said I'm no economist but to me if pound equals a pound it's not exactly a different currency it's more of a local movement to promote shopping and dealing with in the local area. The euro is something totally different. The euro unites different countries of different economic strengths and it did so overnight. The some reason the strength of a currency is linked to the strength of its government so how can you have a coherent single currency when the collective of nations that back it have a constantly shifting economic power between them? I'm not saying a unique currency is a bad thing it actually bloodily helpful but given that the strength of the currency is linked to the government that backs it the euro will only truly work and not be a problem when you do have a United States of Europe which we don't at the moment. If we all grew up and our politicians also grew up and we decided as a people not just as governments that we all wanted to live by the same laws and do things the same way then a common currency would make sense. As things stand it seems to either benefit certain people and disadvantaged others or just create a general shambles.

You're struggling towards answering "what's the right size of a currency", and are almost there. Unfortunately the answer will have consequences you haven't anticipated if this happens: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/10/brexit-vote-paves-way-for-federal-union-says-all-party-group (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/10/brexit-vote-paves-way-for-federal-union-says-all-party-group)

As I've already said I don't know. All I do know is that when a small group of people got a bit too overly enthusiastic about making a massive step in uniting many European countries of different economic and political stability is with the euro things started to go very wrong for some of those countries. If we have to start looking at unified currency why don't countries buddy up say France and Germany both adopt one of their currencies Italy and Spain could buddy up their economies are both Shiite and maybe Portugal could join. After a few years if this has worked then the subgroups can look at joining into a larger group. Or maybe it should be Portugal and Greece on their own unless Portugal has improved over the last decade and a half. When I went to school I was taught that Spain had half the economy of Italy and Portugal had half again. I honestly don't know the answer to the question and I said that already. All I know is that the attempt that has been made is kiboshung things for people and there is a reason why.

I once listened to a programme about the creation of the euro and they had on one of the technical people who devised how we euro would work from a technical point of view. They designed the euro system which included safeguards. They presented the overall system to the politicians who being politicians and not understanding sod all about system engineering decided they didn't like safeguards because they were inconvenient but they wanted all the other good stuff. So they stripped out the safeguards that prevented countries who were not up to it from joining you know the ones like Greece, and in fact Italy should have been in there as well. And then they allowed all of these countries are technically should not have been allowed but for the fact they tore up the rules before they were even implemented on the understanding they pay in to a pot of money presumably some sort of insurance scheme well we all know how well that worked out.

When I lived in Italy and we had the lira the exchange rate between lira and pounds would vary from 2500 lira to 3200 lira within a matter of weeks you call that a stable economy and political system that can lock its exchange rate to every other country in Europe for evermore? To be honest even though I was only a teenager I knew there would be problems. I grandfather who lived in Italy having married and Italian lady he met in the Second World War as he had retired there after they had lived their working life in England used to pretty much gamble on the exchange rate. He would look at the news and see what crap was going on in politics and then estimate the exchange rate which would follow right after the news if it was bad he'd hold out for a week if it was good be straight down the bank next day and instead of drawing out one months pension from England the draw 2 months worth.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 10, 2016, 06:42:37 pm
Of course if you wish every major town in the UK can have its own pound if it's locked to the overall British pounds what difference does it actually make it's just a means for a local area to devalue itself internally if it wants to to make it easier for people to spend money locally. Of course this works if the town can provide everything it needs otherwise we are into the situation where it's having to manage an exchange rate with imports and exports to the country it is part of.

Without being knowledgeable if you want an answer from me the minimum area that can have its own currency is an area that can be mostly self-sufficient.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 10, 2016, 06:57:41 pm
Without being knowledgeable if you want an answer from me the minimum area that can have its own currency is an area that can be mostly self-sufficient.

Well, that rules out the UK/sterling in all important respects.

We are self-sufficient very little, and are becoming ever less self sufficient. That's most evident with the two things that can and do cause riots in the street: food and energy.

The only countries that I might consider self-sufficient are stone-age agricultural economies or North Korea.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 10, 2016, 06:59:59 pm
Without being knowledgeable if you want an answer from me the minimum area that can have its own currency is an area that can be mostly self-sufficient.

Well, that rules out the UK/sterling in all important respects.

We are self-sufficient very little, and are becoming ever less self sufficient. That's most evident with the two things that can and do cause riots in the street: food and energy.

The only countries that I might consider self-sufficient are stone-age agricultural economies or North Korea.

Yes that is true we are not very self-sufficient if Felixstowe Port stopped operating our supermarkets would be empty in 3 days but then on the other hand I don't know how much we export. If we assume that an area with its own currency is going to export well as import I would guess that ideally the area with its own currency needs to have equal amounts of import and export although I'm going to guess that is not the case for the UK anyway. We could of course just go back to trading in gold that's what they did in the early days. Gold was gold gold had a value in itself our money is actually totally and utterly worthless. Any currency is only worth the amount people are willing to believe in it.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on July 10, 2016, 07:26:55 pm
Quote
As I've already said I don't know. All I do know is that when a small group of people got a bit too overly enthusiastic about making a massive step in uniting many European countries of different economic and political stability is with the euro things started to. If we have to start looking at unified currency why don't countries buddy up say France and Germany both adopt one of their currencies Italy and Spain could buddy up their economies are both Shiite and maybe Portugal could join. After a few years if this has worked then the subgroups can look at joining into a larger group. Or maybe it should be Portugal and Greece on their own unless Portugal has improved over the last decade and a half. When I went to school I was taught that Spain had half the economy of Italy and Portugal had half again. I honestly don't know the answer to the question and I said that already. All I know is that the attempt that has been made is kiboshung things for people and there is a reason why.

Quote
go very wrong for some of those countries


But the blame are the countries and not of the Euro.

Quote
don't countries buddy up say France and Germany both adopt one of their currencies Italy and Spain could buddy up their economies are both Shiite and maybe Portugal could join

Fantastic solution , you create 2 currency and automatly you devalue the new currency Italy-spain versus franco-germany.

Furthermore ,when we always have negociated with the italians, finally  they always go to their ball(as the cats), therefore they aren't a fiable partner.

Now , an alliance France and Spanish would put to Germany to think. It would be the worse nightmare for the germanies.
 
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 10, 2016, 07:29:19 pm
I was not talking about alliances but about joining together economically equivalent countries. You response pretty much explains the failures of the euro.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on July 10, 2016, 08:05:59 pm
Quote
You response pretty much explains the failures of the euro.

The first problem of the euro is that anybody were interested a only taxation for all the europe. Especially the germans with  the objective of make and unmake their graft.

Second , it hasn't sense that the france and germany have the same currency, less when the France have the same symptom that Spanish and Italians(Excesive debt and Bank crisis)

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 10, 2016, 08:09:28 pm
Well I wasn't aware france and germany are so different but i was just giving examples. Or does it turn out that non ofthe EU is fit for the euro anymore ?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 10, 2016, 08:43:47 pm
We call them nazis because they are nazis. That's what the Danish don't understand about the Swedish radical right. 30 years ago SD was openly nazi sympatisers. Denmark is a bit naive in this regard. Look at what happened in Norway. The extreme right is de facto a bigger threat than isis in Scandinavia, but it get less attention.
You seriously compare the current crop of far right organisations to the Nazis?
I was talking about SD primarily, they used to call themselves nazis some 30 years ago, now they claim they have changed. If you look at all of the radical right in Sweden most of them would not call themselves nazis today, they invent a new ideology every odd week. I believe the technically correct term for all of them is fascist.

Edit: here is a picture of SD's youth organisation SDU, that SD decided to disown relatively recently, guess why:
(http://sverigesradio.se/sida/images/3993/3503530_2048_1152.jpg?preset=article)

(http://expo.se/www/images/sd_sdu_111015_malmo_001_464.jpg)
Let me translate that sign for you: "with the people, for the fatherland". /Edit.

What you have is no different to any other country in Europe, everyone has a standing population of say 20% of voters who are essentially xenophobic.
Britain has about 25%, with about 0.1% that you could describe as far right, and of that maybe a few hundred actual neo nazis who like to pose in front of flags or whatever.
France has consistently always had a larger xenophobic voter base, but still only around 30%
I don't doubt things are different in Britain, all Eurpoean countries have their own history and their own flavor of right wing extremism. Very few are openly fascist here as well, but the history of SD is well established and the people involved in that party are who they are. Those who vote for SD are not all nazis of course. They are mainly xenophobic older men in the country who find the authoritarian anti-establishment rhetoric appealing.

The groups you imagine are "Nazis" are little more than pressure groups wishing for less immigration and a return to something like the 1950's in terms of values.
That's it - No death camps, no invasions, no master race, no marching in formation.
You're speaking to a member of the master race, I'm not so easily fooled. ;D

But then calling the working class "racist" and "nazi" has always been a more efficient way of censoring debate, than calling someone "anti-cultural".
SD is not a working class party, although they also have support from parts of the working class.

"The extreme right is de facto a bigger threat than ISIS in Scandinavia"

Err, what do you imagine the extreme right are going to do? Wear horned helmets in public and pillage the local supermarket?
You have not heard of the bombing and massacre in Norway 5 years ago by a right wing extremist? it is de facto the worst terrorist attack in Scandinavia. In Sweden the only terrorist attacks have been committed by the radical right. There was a failed attempt by an Islamist suicide bomber (who was radicalized in Luton, England) a while ago, but he only succeeded with killing himself.

This is what the ISIS supporters in Sweden are already doing to you:
https://swedenreport.org/2014/10/29/swedish-police-55-official-no-go-zones/ (https://swedenreport.org/2014/10/29/swedish-police-55-official-no-go-zones/)

Prisoners in your own country, what a joke.
As that blogger admits in the beginning there are no no-go-zones, it's what the opinion piece/editorial he linked to calls them. There have been some problem with organized crime by some sort of Assyrian/Syriac mafia. It had nothing to do with ISIS nor Islam (actually the syrian-ortodox church was involved somehow, I don't know the details though).

By ignoring the problem, Sweden is naively contributing at least another 300 ISIS terrorists to the world
http://www.sakerhetspolisen.se/download/18.4f0385ee143058a61a89f3/1392294843261/Reportonviolence-promotingIslamistextremisminSweden.pdf (http://www.sakerhetspolisen.se/download/18.4f0385ee143058a61a89f3/1392294843261/Reportonviolence-promotingIslamistextremisminSweden.pdf)
Right, the page you link to are hosted by the Swedish secret service, I'm pretty sure they keep tabs on those particular 300 ISIS sympathizers, so don't worry.

You know, the fault lies with the US and UK invasion of Iraq. That is what caused the current chaos in the middle east. That is what is causing refugees seek safe harbor in Europe. If you look at where the refugees in Europe come from (besides Afghanistan), it is Iraq, Syria and Eastern Africa, all regions that collapsed after the Iraq disaster the UK helped create. ISIS was created and led by former Iraqi secret service personnel, that is why they have been so successful in taking over parts of Syria.

Sweden have only done what every country in the world promised they would (http://www.unhcr.org/1951-refugee-convention.html), we have granted asylum to people fleeing from war zones.

Problem is that Sweden alone (and Germany, etc) cannot, by themselves, accommodate all refugees that enter into EU. The EU asylum seekers need to be distributed fairly and evenly among all the member states, if EU did that there would be no refugee crisis in Europe. Of course, the UK opposed that idea.

So please stop complaining about Sweden (and the rest of Europe) who are trying to deal, as humanely as possible, with the humanitarian disaster that the UK caused by invading Iraq in 2003.

Here's some reading for you:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36721645 (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36721645)
http://www.iraqinquiry.org.uk/ (http://www.iraqinquiry.org.uk/)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: amiq on July 10, 2016, 09:04:10 pm
A follow up to the previous video I posted of Professor Michael Dougan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dosmKwrAbI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dosmKwrAbI)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: XynxNet on July 10, 2016, 09:17:13 pm
I was not talking about alliances but about joining together economically equivalent countries. You response pretty much explains the failures of the euro.
They don't have to be equal, but there has to be a mechanism to boost the weaker economy. That's partly missing at the moment or does not work very well towards the benefit of the weaker european economies.

A successfull example can be found in germany. Bavaria went from on of our poorest states to one of our most sucessfull ones. It took 30 years, a lot of monetary transfers from other states and some smart decisions from it's local government. It's great for bavaria but it's also great for the other german states because bavaria invested in "new" industries. So today they help those states which are struggling due to the decline of mining and steel industries and which are the ones who payed for bavarias economic rise.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 10, 2016, 11:19:30 pm
A follow up to the previous video I posted of Professor Michael Dougan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dosmKwrAbI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dosmKwrAbI)

News at 11 - Man funded by EU is Pro EU!

http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86112 (http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86112)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on July 11, 2016, 01:25:31 am
I was not talking about alliances but about joining together economically equivalent countries. You response pretty much explains the failures of the euro.
They don't have to be equal, but there has to be a mechanism to boost the weaker economy. That's partly missing at the moment or does not work very well towards the benefit of the weaker european economies.

How do you do that?  You have an industrial powerhouse like Germany and, on the other side, Greece.  How can the economy of Greece ever approach that of Germany.

Yet Greece can't devalue their currency to make their exports attractive because they are locked into the same Euro that Germany uses.

Of the 28 countries in the EU, how many are realistically equivalent to Germany?



A successfull example can be found in germany. Bavaria went from on of our poorest states to one of our most sucessfull ones. It took 30 years, a lot of monetary transfers from other states and some smart decisions from it's local government. It's great for bavaria but it's also great for the other german states because bavaria invested in "new" industries. So today they help those states which are struggling due to the decline of mining and steel industries and which are the ones who payed for bavarias economic rise.
[/quote]
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 11, 2016, 07:07:29 am
Problem is that Sweden alone (and Germany, etc) cannot, by themselves, accommodate all refugees that enter into EU.
That is not the problem. The problem is that certain other members of Schengen did not fulfill their obligations in regard to protecting the outer borders and to add insult to injury, they simply turned a blind eye to the fact that legions of illegal immigrants were transiting through their countries en route to Germany and Scandinavia where milk and honey are supposed to be flowing.

The EU asylum seekers need to be distributed fairly and evenly among all the member states, if EU did that there would be no refugee crisis in Europe. Of course, the UK opposed that idea.
Lots of countries oppose that idea and it wouldn't work anyway. Remember, free movement across borders.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 11, 2016, 07:08:33 am
They are mainly xenophobic older men in the country who find the authoritarian anti-establishment rhetoric appealing.

I noticed that xenophiles are ad hominem trigger happy with xenorealistics. It leave no room for an honest discussion. Or maybe this is the reason why. In this case it's compounded with a sexists and agist tone.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on July 11, 2016, 07:11:42 am
If you look at the longest lived "divisions" (countries), they work because they are geographically, culturally, socially and economically the same.  When two areas that aren't the same join, they always ultimately split up.
Example? Isolationist countries have always ended up poor and technologically backwards. China seems to be doing great and has a very heterogeneous makeup.

Isolationist is not the opposite of united, so your statement above has no bearing on what you said earlier.  Previously, you said larger unions lead to more stability and less war, which is provably false.  Many of the wars which have been fought in the history of the world were about people who wanted out of unions.  And no empire has stood the test of time throughout the history of the world - ever. 

Nobody could rationally argue that the countries which currently make up the EU are close enough geographically, culturally, socially and economically that they will stand the test of time.
Evidently lots of people could, can and do. Besides, the cultural and social differences of the EU (and nation states in general) were artificially engineered during the 19th century. What about the US, all those geographically, culturally, socially and economically different states seems to get along just fine.
[/quote]

Who is arguing that the EU will stand the test of time?  Can yo provide a link to a source?  I haven't heard anyone making a rational and reasoned argument that there is anything about the EU that indicates it will continue to exist in 1,000 years - I'd like to see your source, however.  We do have thousands of years of history that is littered with empires and unions that all fell apart, 100% of the time.  We also have individual nations that have lasted for thousands of years.  So the data suggests that empires don't work, but sufficiently discrete nations can and do work. 

As for the USA, if you are suggesting that the different states are analogous to European countries, then you don't know much about the USA or Europe.  There is no reasonable comparison between US states and European nations - I mean, language alone proves the comparison patently untrue.  Add in social, economic and political differences and it just drives the point home.   And even then, the USA will not likely stand the test of time.  Neither will most of the nations that currently exist on this earth.  The EU most definitely won't.  I doubt it will even survive my lifetime.  I'm older than the EU and it's already falling apart.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 11, 2016, 07:28:04 am
I was not talking about alliances but about joining together economically equivalent countries. You response pretty much explains the failures of the euro.

That same argument could be applied to the pound and the economically very different parts of the UK. Do you propose splitting sterling on those grounds? If not, why not?

Consider, for example, Merthyr Tydfil and London, which have less in common than Germany and Greece. The only reason people move to Merthyr is that a flat costs £60k vs £470k in London! And nobody has a holiday in Merthyr, unlike Greece.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on July 11, 2016, 07:37:35 am
Police corpses in other countries manage to deal with erratic behaviour during traffic controls without the shooting.

All of this doesn't *have* to happen.

I have a friend who is a police officer in Belgium.  I am not sure how many people are killed by police each year in Belgium, but it isn't zero.  He told me about an old guy he had to shoot because the guy was angry about being evicted and was waving a gun around and wouldn't put it down.  The USA has a population more than 30 times that of Belgium, and about 1,000 people are killed by police each year - which is the equivalent of about 30 people being killed by police in Belgium.

I travel extensively in Europe, and if you watch the news there, you would think that cops are killing 10% of the population each year.  The world is obsessed with the USA, and the US media gets obsessed with various topics.  Currently, one of the hot topics if blacks being killed by police.  So it's all over the news here, which means it's all over the news in most of the rest of the world.  And most people don't bother to delve deeper into issues, they just read the headline and take it as fact (I am not saying you, I am just saying in general).  I have a Polish friend who is coming to the USA with her mom and her mom is terrified of being killed by police, shot by a terrorist, eaten by an alligator or arrested for something she didn't know was illegal.  That's just not the reality of life in the USA.

As for people getting shot in traffic incidents, guns are legal in the USA and widely available.  There are no police in the entire world that "deal with" perps with guns in any manner other than guns.  It's just that in many other countries, guns aren't as widely available.  As such, police tactics include tactics to address that.  I have been pulled over several times.  The police officer stands behind me, just behind the B-pillar of my car.  They put their overhead forward white lights on and light up your car.  They have their hand on top of their gun (while it is holstered) when they come to your car.  And if you are not a complete idiot, they are generally polite and respectful, and unless you were doing something really stupid, they tell you why they stopped you and you go on your way.  In every police shooting video I've seen, the person pulled over *isn't* polite or respectful, and their behavior is erratic and threatening.  That immediately puts a cop on edge and will get his gun drawn.  Normal, rational people don't do things like get out of their car and try to run when pulled over.  Nor do they run from the police, or refuse to follow police instructions.  Doing that stuff is like playing with high voltage - it's a recipe for disaster.  And in *most* cases, the cops get it right.  Rarely, they get it wrong - and are almost always prosecuted when they break the law.

The media is all about eyeballs, though, so things get blown out of proportion and hyped beyond reason.  One example is black being shot by police.  More whites are shot by police, by a 2-3 times multiple than blacks.  Yes, blacks make up 15% of the population but 25% of those killed by police, but a vast majority of the violent crime committed in the USA is also by blacks, so they have a much higher rate of interaction with police than others.  If you normalize for the number of interactions with police and likelihood to wind up shot, white people have a much higher likelihood of being killed by police than a black person does. 

But to listen to the news, cops shoot first when it's a black suspect and whites are treated with kid-gloves.  It would be funny to observe how the media paints this stuff if it wasn't such a serious subject.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on July 11, 2016, 08:02:59 am
How do you do that?  You have an industrial powerhouse like Germany and, on the other side, Greece.  How can the economy of Greece ever approach that of Germany.

Yet Greece can't devalue their currency to make their exports attractive because they are locked into the same Euro that Germany uses.

Of the 28 countries in the EU, how many are realistically equivalent to Germany?

This is one of the reasons the EU can't last.  The countries are too economically disparate.  Germany benefits because they are essentially working with a devalued currency which helps them immensely (as an export nation) - and Greece is forced to operate in the same economic sphere.

The problem never got solved during the Greek financial crisis.  It never got solved for the rest of the PIIGS either.  The can just got kicked down the road a little bit, and now the Greeks are unhappy with the outcome and the Germans are unhappy with the outcome.  If one looks at the Greek budget, their budget deficit is right in line with where it's been in the last 20 years.  Spending to GDP is larger than it's ever been with the exception of 2013, debt to GDP is virtually identical to the highest it has ever been.  They are suffering huge unemployment, deflation, GDP contraction and more.

If you look at all EU nations, the "rich" ones like France, Germany, Belgium and the UK - they are all suffering low growth compared to the USA and China.  And the poorer ones (Poland, Hungary, Romania, Croatia) are suffering deflation - which is death to an economy. Greece is just the worst-off, but they aren't the only ones doing badly.


All of this will eventually come to a head.  It's not doing any favors to the Greeks or Germans, and the whole EU is underperforming compared to the USA/China (their big competitors). 

Hopefully is falls apart peacefully - because things could go sideways real bad real quick.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 11, 2016, 08:27:07 am
I am not sure how many people are killed by police each year in Belgium, but it isn't zero.  He told me about an old guy he had to shoot because the guy was angry about being evicted and was waving a gun around and wouldn't put it down.  The USA has a population more than 30 times that of Belgium, and about 1,000 people are killed by police each year - which is the equivalent of about 30 people being killed by police in Belgium.

I don't know the figures for Belgium but I do have data from a Danish report and from 1985 till 2002 Danish police shot 12 people dead:

YearShot dead
19850
19863
19871
19880
19890
19900
19911
19920
19931
19940
19950
19961
19970
19980
19990
20000
20013
20022

That's 0.67 people a year. The population of the US is 57 times that of Denmark so that would make it equivalent to the police in the USA shooting 38 people dead every year.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on July 11, 2016, 08:40:13 am
Similar here, with practically 0 for traffic related incidents.
The stats will go up for us with the cells of Paris and Brussels baddies that have been rolled up.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on July 11, 2016, 08:58:52 am
The world is obsessed with the USA, and the US media gets obsessed with various topics. 
As for people getting shot in traffic incidents, guns are legal in the USA and widely available. 
One sentence as if that is ok. You and your country are in denial, the USA related death by firearms for countries is top 10 in the world, you are in the same league as Panama, Urugay and the likes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
You think that is overreacting? The response to 911 was overreacting by a huge scale, only 3500 deaths and the whole country has changed to intolerate, frightened and paranoid people, unfortunately.
Do the math and see how many people are killed by your own people each year and compare that to terrorist death related incidents, now what should have higher priority hmmmmm
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 11, 2016, 09:21:36 am
Problem is that Sweden alone (and Germany, etc) cannot, by themselves, accommodate all refugees that enter into EU.
That is not the problem. The problem is that certain other members of Schengen did not fulfill their obligations in regard to protecting the outer borders and to add insult to injury, they simply turned a blind eye to the fact that legions of illegal immigrants were transiting through their countries en route to Germany and Scandinavia where milk and honey are supposed to be flowing.
You can not legally deny someone who wants to apply for asylum. Once they arrive in EU you need handle their request for asylum. You can of course try to strike a deal with countries outside of EU (Turkey) but that is a different problem.

The refugees come in via Greece, Italy and Hungary. Those countries cannot accommodate all asylum applicants by themselves any more than Sweden or Germany can (it's not like Greece can afford to), so they let those who wish continue on their own up north to apply for asylum in the country of their choosing. That doesn't work either since all the refugees choose to go to Germany and Sweden apparently. So there need to be a system that relocates the asylum applicants evenly and fairly among the eu-member states.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Refugee_crisis_in_Europe_Q1-Q4_2015.svg/526px-Refugee_crisis_in_Europe_Q1-Q4_2015.svg.png)
Asylum applicants in 2015
The EU asylum seekers need to be distributed fairly and evenly among all the member states, if EU did that there would be no refugee crisis in Europe. Of course, the UK opposed that idea.
Lots of countries oppose that idea and it wouldn't work anyway. Remember, free movement across borders.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/2015-09-22_EU_JHA_Council_majority_vote_to_relocate_120%2C000_refugees.svg/250px-2015-09-22_EU_JHA_Council_majority_vote_to_relocate_120%2C000_refugees.svg.png)
Green - yes, red - no, yellow - opt-out.

I think you overestimate peoples desire to come to Sweden and Germany. Once people settle down and get comfortable in one country; learn the language, get friends and hopefully work they will not just pick up their bags and move again.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 11, 2016, 09:35:06 am
You can not legally deny someone who wants to apply for asylum. Once they arrive in EU you need handle their request for asylum.
It is the job of the country where they arrive first, for example Greece, to sort that out. They didn't. Instead they just lat the pass through in violation of the Schengen agreement.  Greece (to stay with our example) should have rejected everybody whose asylum applications are groundless as well as anybody who doesn't apply for asylum.

You can of course try to strike a deal with countries outside of EU (Turkey) but that is a different problem.
Yes, we have outsourced the machine gunning at the border to Turkey.

I think you overestimate peoples desire to come to Sweden and Germany.
Have a look at the maps you posted. They speak for themselves.

One reason to head straight for Sweden is the outrageously liberal family reunion rules you have saddled yourself with.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on July 11, 2016, 09:38:25 am
It's ironic though, you brits start an illegal war with the US in Iraq and in the aftermath millions of people are on the run for war and then you refuse to do your part?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3682639/Iraq-war-illegal-says-Blairs-former-deputy.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3682639/Iraq-war-illegal-says-Blairs-former-deputy.html)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on July 11, 2016, 09:41:20 am
It is the job of the country where they arrive first, for example Greece, to sort that out. They didn't. Instead they just lat the pass through in violation of the Schengen agreement.  Greece (to stay with our example) should have rejected everybody whose asylum applications are groundless as well as anybody who doesn't apply for asylum.
Pffff they came with millions unexpected, Greece was bankrupt and never had any EU support to take care of that many people.
What should have happened was that the entire EU helped Greece from day one to handle the huge amount of people and take in those that were recognized as legal refugees.
And sent back those that were not. Neither happened, the EU was in meetings thinking what to do. I am still waiting for a good answer.
Lets face it, no-one in the EU was prepared for this. If it was your country that was in the south you would have flooded also and would not have handled it any better.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on July 11, 2016, 09:59:32 am
What we need in this century is less centralisation of power but more cooperation between countries using modern tools.

Be careful what you wish for; you may get it.

Power finds a way. Where political power wanes, corporate power becomes ascendant. Unlike political power, corporate power is not accountable to the likes of thee and me; it is only accountable to its shareholders.

That way lies the TTIP.

And it's consumers !!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 11, 2016, 10:05:42 am
If it was your country that was in the south
But it isn't.

Greece has a quite large military they can use for man power to screen migrants. There are no excuses for them sitting on their hands.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Jeroen3 on July 11, 2016, 10:08:53 am
But to listen to the news, cops shoot first when it's a black suspect and whites are treated with kid-gloves.  It would be funny to observe how the media paints this stuff if it wasn't such a serious subject.
Suspect shot by police during traffic stop  :-\
Black guy shot by police during traffic stop  :scared:
Since you will only read news that agrees with you, there is a positive feedback loop that will continue to amplify.
The news fakes and inflates everything. I know people who've worked there. They'll shoot for an hour, and if they don't get the perfect shot of an event they had hoped for, they recruit some people to act. They are that desperate.

And you do not "just deploy the military" within your own borders. That is a big moral no-go. They assist with natural disaster, but as soon as you need military intervention against people in your country, all has collapsed.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on July 11, 2016, 10:44:03 am
If it was your country that was in the south
But it isn't.
Greece has a quite large military they can use for man power to screen migrants. There are no excuses for them sitting on their hands.
Sitting on their hands? Have you watched the news the last year? Don't be ridiculous. The Danish wouldn't have done it one bit better and you know it.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on July 11, 2016, 10:59:17 am
"That's 0.67 people a year. The population of the US is 57 times that of Denmark so that would make it equivalent to the police in the USA shooting 38 people dead every year."

There are about 1100 policy related deaths a year in the US. And if you take out the angels, that number goes to about 750.

In comparison, 30,000 to 40,000 people are killed each year in traffic accidents, and 2,000 in the great city of Chicago YTD alone.

Freedom is expensive and it is up to the people to decide if the trade off is worth it. The people in Denmark made a decision they are happy with. That doesn't mean the same decision is the right one (or the wrong one) for the people in other countries.

Democracy is all about letting other people determine their own course, whether you agree or not is irrelevant.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on July 11, 2016, 11:01:19 am
It's ironic though, you brits start an illegal war with the US in Iraq and in the aftermath millions of people are on the run for war and then you refuse to do your part?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3682639/Iraq-war-illegal-says-Blairs-former-deputy.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3682639/Iraq-war-illegal-says-Blairs-former-deputy.html)
It's spitting hairs, I know, but the Yanks started it - we just tagged along.

Otherwise I agree.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on July 11, 2016, 11:06:19 am
"It is the job of the country where they arrive first, for example Greece, to sort that out. "

If so, it should be the right of those countries to decide the manner, timing, and amount of refugees they want to take in, not those countries that do NOT take in those refugees.

It is like I bus in a bunch of refugees to your house and insist that you take everyone of them in, whenever I dump them on your door front.

Those interior EU countries who insist on the current EU laws, and who advertise their "acceptance" of refugees should be chanllenged to step up to the plate and honor their words, not just paying lip services.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 11, 2016, 11:08:30 am
Democracy is all about letting other people determine their own course
Actually it has nothing to do with that  :P
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 11, 2016, 12:31:45 pm
Democracy is all about letting other people determine their own course
Actually it has nothing to do with that  :P

Just so. I am continually amazed at the almost religious sentiments and misunderstandings about democracy.

Democracy has never been the solution.

Democracy is just one of several different ways of finding solutions - with relative disadvantages as well as relative advantages.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 11, 2016, 12:53:35 pm
Those interior EU countries who insist on the current EU laws, and who advertise their "acceptance" of refugees should be chanllenged to step up to the plate and honor their words, not just paying lip services.
Germany and Sweden did - until they finally decided enough is enough.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 11, 2016, 01:23:44 pm


It's ironic though, you brits start an illegal war with the US in Iraq and in the aftermath millions of people are on the run for war and then you refuse to do your part?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3682639/Iraq-war-illegal-says-Blairs-former-deputy.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3682639/Iraq-war-illegal-says-Blairs-former-deputy.html)

We freed them from a dictator and set free elections. Unfortunately for them, they preferred to shoot each other instead of building their country. Now you let them destroy yours. Good luck.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on July 11, 2016, 01:27:21 pm
We freed them from a dictator
The CIA put him there in the first place  :palm:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 11, 2016, 01:40:21 pm
We freed them from a dictator
Do you have any current plans for what to do about the other 50 or so current dictatorships?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 11, 2016, 01:43:41 pm
We freed them from a dictator
The CIA put him there in the first place  :palm:
More importantly, he had been naughty
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on July 11, 2016, 01:53:11 pm
Lately when the US messes with world politics I do get the flashback of the first 4 minutes of "Team America: World Police"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4cR5mvnFPs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4cR5mvnFPs)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 11, 2016, 02:12:09 pm
We freed them from a dictator
Do you have any current plans for what to do about the other 50 or so current dictatorships?

Me? No I don't plan this kind of things. Personally I prefer having foreign nations sorting out their internal affairs, regardless how ugly they are or how desperately they ask for help. The world is an ungrateful place.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on July 11, 2016, 02:16:32 pm
We freed them from a dictator
The CIA put him there in the first place  :palm:
Indeed. All the problems in the middle East are f*ck-ups from the US. Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, you name it and there has been some involvement of the US which enabled the mess we are dealing with now. Just read some history.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on July 11, 2016, 02:18:18 pm
We freed them from a dictator
The CIA put him there in the first place  :palm:
Indeed. All the problems in the middle East are f*ck-ups from the US. Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, you name it and there has been some involvement of the US which enabled the mess we are dealing with now. Just read some history.
Continue reading that history. Don't stop at an arbitrary time that seems to prove your point.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 11, 2016, 02:27:15 pm
We freed them from a dictator
The CIA put him there in the first place  :palm:
Indeed. All the problems in the middle East are f*ck-ups from the US. Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, you name it and there has been some involvement of the US which enabled the mess we are dealing with now. Just read some history.
Continue reading that history. Don't stop at an arbitrary time that seems to prove your point.

It's the blame-america-first approach. I see it also here coming from the left. It fits their oppressor/victim view of the world.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: IanB on July 11, 2016, 02:38:04 pm
It's the blame-america-first approach. I see it also here coming from the left. It fits their oppressor/victim view of the world.

OK, now this is just getting silly. The USA has had a policy of exerting military power beyond its borders and interfering in the affairs of other nations for a really long time. There is nothing imagined about this.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on July 11, 2016, 02:39:45 pm
What the world needs to understand about US police shootings is that the video they see bears no resemblance to what actually happened.  Oh, and every witness lies!

Remember Ferguson, MO?  Everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY, had that officer convicted of outright murder.  But some of the witnesses (most of them actually) flat out lied!  They couldn't have seen what they said they saw, they weren't even there!

So, what happens when the case is presented to the grand jury?  Nothing!  There was no indictment, the officer was found to be in compliance with all rules and training and, even though his life and career are trashed, he is free to go.  It is said that a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich but, in this case, there was no possible justification to prosecute the officer.  Oh, and the Feds?  They dropped the case as well.  After all the grandstanding for the media, they quietly walked away.  That was a righteous shooting regardless of what the media portrayed.  The officer has every right to protect himself and the bad guy had every opportunity to call it off.  The bad guy made a bad choice.  They do that!  That's why they are the bad guys.

Again, we are rushing to judgement on Minnesota and Louisiana.  I have no idea what happened but I doubt that it looked at all like the video.  Even as bad as the Freddie Gray (Baltimore) case seems, I notice they aren't getting any convictions.

You can't compare the demographics of the US with homogeneous societies like Denmark.  We have a very serious problem with a percentage of our population.  No education, no jobs, no role models, drugs, gangs, and so on.  Look at Chicago with over 2000 shootings year to date.

http://crime.chicagotribune.com/chicago/shootings/ (http://crime.chicagotribune.com/chicago/shootings/)

We are so screwed...

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 11, 2016, 02:43:08 pm
We freed them from a dictator
Do you have any current plans for what to do about the other 50 or so current dictatorships?
Me? No I don't plan this kind of things. Personally I prefer having foreign nations sorting out their internal affairs, regardless how ugly they are or how desperately they ask for help. The world is an ungrateful place.

Yes, but the Pax Americana goes with being "top dog" and is necessary to ensure free trade - which significantly benefits America.
A century ago the Pax Britannica fulfilled the same function.
Two millennia ago the Pax Romana was doing the same.
And there are many other examples.

So please don't pretend any largesse is solely altruistic!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on July 11, 2016, 02:52:41 pm
It's the blame-america-first approach. I see it also here coming from the left. It fits their oppressor/victim view of the world.

OK, now this is just getting silly. The USA has had a policy of exerting military power beyond its borders and interfering in the affairs of other nations for a really long time. There is nothing imagined about this.

That's true and I really wish we would knock it off.  We need to get out of South Korea, Japan and Europe as soon as possible.  We pump billions into those economies that we could better use around here.

And we certainly need to get out of the Middle East - today would be good.  But what happens?  Obama comes to power saying he was going to wrap up these wars and close Guantanamo.  None of that happened.  He has the distinction of being at war longer than any other president.

Why on God's Green Earth are we building up US forces in eastern Europe?  If Russia wants Poland back, let them have it!  It's not a US problem.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/poland-hold-biggest-nato-manoeuvres-amid-russia-tensions-171355952.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/poland-hold-biggest-nato-manoeuvres-amid-russia-tensions-171355952.html)

The good news about Social Security in the US is that it will bankrupt the military.  There simply won't be enough money to pay both and it's not politically popular to attack us oldtimers.  We may be old and cranky but we VOTE!

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 11, 2016, 02:54:48 pm
So please don't pretend any largesse is solely altruistic!

The 'any' and 'solely' exaggerations are yours, not mine.

Look at the Chinese model, they trade with whoever controls the country, regardless of any moral judgment. It works for them, can work for us just the same. The world is an ungrateful place.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on July 11, 2016, 03:02:53 pm
Obama comes to power saying he was going to wrap up these wars and close Guantanamo.  None of that happened.  He has the distinction of being at war longer than any other president.
He inherited that stinking pile of s**t from the republican president before him and everytime he wanted to do something the republican majority voted against it. That is not power that is a stand of powers and nothing can be done.

Quote
Why on God's Green Earth are we building up US forces in eastern Europe?  If Russia wants Poland back, let them have it!  It's not a US problem.
Indeed it is not, and ww3 is not your problem either if it were not that the nuclear fall out will contaminate the whole world.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 11, 2016, 03:08:08 pm
So please don't pretend any largesse is solely altruistic!

The 'any' and 'solely' exaggerations are yours, not mine.

Look at the Chinese model, they trade with whoever controls the country, regardless of any moral judgment. It works for them, can work for us just the same. The world is an ungrateful place.

Er. I think you mispelled "can"; in that sentence the correct spelling is "did and does".

Plus dominant powers, US included, aren't averse to ensuring the local strong man is friendly to the US. Start by considering what happened to the democratically elected President Allende in Chile, and then move onto later examples.

The world isn't divided into black-and-white; everything (USA included) is shades of grey.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on July 11, 2016, 03:12:19 pm
Obama comes to power saying he was going to wrap up these wars and close Guantanamo.  None of that happened.  He has the distinction of being at war longer than any other president.
He inherited that stinking pile of s**t from the republican president before him and everytime he wanted to do something the republican majority voted against it. That is not power that is a stand of powers and nothing can be done.

Quote
Why on God's Green Earth are we building up US forces in eastern Europe?  If Russia wants Poland back, let them have it!  It's not a US problem.
Indeed it is not, and ww3 is not your problem either if it were not that the nuclear fall out will contaminate the whole world.

See, that's the thing!  Nobody wants the US to intervene until they want us to intervene on their behalf.  Everybody wants to pick and choose for us.  Well, here's a newsflash:  You don't get to make those decisions!

Bush Sr. was right about the ME.  Get in, kill a bunch of people and GTH out!  Did Junior learn from his father?  No!  He just had to try to one-up the old man.  But, hey, the entire region is in flames.  Our work there is done.

And, frankly, if WW III is confined to Europe, I think I would prefer to see us sit it out.  We've been there and done that - a couple of times.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 11, 2016, 03:17:38 pm
One reason to head straight for Sweden is the outrageously liberal family reunion rules you have saddled yourself with.
That may be the reason why so many choose to come to Sweden. But if we start lowering our standards in order to try to make the refugees go to some other country instead, it will become a race to the bottom. Every country will keep lowering their standards so they don't end up with Sorteper. So it's not really a solution. The liberal family reunion rules wouldn't be a problem if the refugees were distributed evenly among the member countries. Then all countries could have whatever rules they wanted.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on July 11, 2016, 03:18:53 pm
Obama comes to power saying he was going to wrap up these wars and close Guantanamo.  None of that happened.  He has the distinction of being at war longer than any other president.
He inherited that stinking pile of s**t from the republican president before him and everytime he wanted to do something the republican majority voted against it. That is not power that is a stand of powers and nothing can be done.

He did inherit the problem and as Commander In Chief he could, at any time, tell the military to pack up and come home.  The Congress has nothing to say about it.  Even if they did, the country is tired of war and even those of us who despise him would back that decision.  He didn't do it!  He let the military roll right over him!

As to Guantanamo, take the prisoners back to where they came from and close it down.  Thirty days max!  If the prisoners don't want to go back or the country doesn't want them, air drop them - parachute or not, their choice.  Don't tell me it couldn't be done!  What couldn't be done, and Congress rightly wouldn't allow, is to bring the dirt bags to the US.  They might attain rights we would rather they not have.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 11, 2016, 03:19:06 pm
Going back to Brexit, what is the next step? Conservative party elect Cameron's replacement? What is the timeline for that?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 11, 2016, 03:21:39 pm
Going back to Brexit, what is the next step? Conservative party elect Cameron's replacement? What is the timeline for that?

Actually we already have a new one (starting on Wednesday), Theresa May will be the new Prime Minister. The second female one in the UK.
Their opponent dropped out, hence the news.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-36570120 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-36570120)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36768148 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36768148)

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 11, 2016, 03:24:49 pm
We freed them from a dictator
The CIA put him there in the first place  :palm:
Indeed. All the problems in the middle East are f*ck-ups from the US. Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, you name it and there has been some involvement of the US which enabled the mess we are dealing with now. Just read some history.
To be fair, the soviet union were also messing around in the middle east and so was the UK (surprise!). At least the UK was involved in Iran. Anyway, ever since oil became important those with superpower ambitions have been plundering in the middle east. Now the world need to stop using fossil fuels anyway so maybe they will eventually get some peace, if ww3 doesn't happen before that.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rolycat on July 11, 2016, 03:32:41 pm
Obama comes to power saying he was going to wrap up these wars and close Guantanamo.  None of that happened.  He has the distinction of being at war longer than any other president.
He inherited that stinking pile of s**t from the republican president before him and everytime he wanted to do something the republican majority voted against it. That is not power that is a stand of powers and nothing can be done.

Quote
Why on God's Green Earth are we building up US forces in eastern Europe?  If Russia wants Poland back, let them have it!  It's not a US problem.
Indeed it is not, and ww3 is not your problem either if it were not that the nuclear fall out will contaminate the whole world.

See, that's the thing!  Nobody wants the US to intervene until they want us to intervene on their behalf.  Everybody wants to pick and choose for us.  Well, here's a newsflash:  You don't get to make those decisions!

Bush Sr. was right about the ME.  Get in, kill a bunch of people and GTH out!  Did Junior learn from his father?  No!  He just had to try to one-up the old man.  But, hey, the entire region is in flames.  Our work there is done.

And, frankly, if WW III is confined to Europe, I think I would prefer to see us sit it out.  We've been there and done that - a couple of times.
The thing about world wars is that they tend not to be confined to a single continent.

America did its damnedest to sit out both world wars; it only entered WW1 because German U-boats were sinking American ships and the Germans proposed an alliance with Mexico against the USA. And everyone knows why it was forced into WW2.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 11, 2016, 03:45:12 pm
If you look at the longest lived "divisions" (countries), they work because they are geographically, culturally, socially and economically the same.  When two areas that aren't the same join, they always ultimately split up.
Example? Isolationist countries have always ended up poor and technologically backwards. China seems to be doing great and has a very heterogeneous makeup.
Isolationist is not the opposite of united, so your statement above has no bearing on what you said earlier.  Previously, you said larger unions lead to more stability and less war, which is provably false.  Many of the wars which have been fought in the history of the world were about people who wanted out of unions.  And no empire has stood the test of time throughout the history of the world - ever.
No, what I wanted to say was: if everyone wants autonomy by themselves and no democratic cooperation the result is less stability. It is true that bigger entities are no guarantees for peace, nor do I think unions or large countries have value in itself. But I believe that cooperation in a democratic way on larger geographic scales are necessary to solve many problems humanity is facing. EU is a way for the European countries to cooperate peacefully, and everyone in the union profits from it.

Nobody could rationally argue that the countries which currently make up the EU are close enough geographically, culturally, socially and economically that they will stand the test of time.
Evidently lots of people could, can and do. Besides, the cultural and social differences of the EU (and nation states in general) were artificially engineered during the 19th century. What about the US, all those geographically, culturally, socially and economically different states seems to get along just fine.
Who is arguing that the EU will stand the test of time?  Can yo provide a link to a source?  I haven't heard anyone making a rational and reasoned argument that there is anything about the EU that indicates it will continue to exist in 1,000 years - I'd like to see your source, however.
It is obvious that all those who are in favor of the EU also think it will last more than a few years, is it not?

We do have thousands of years of history that is littered with empires and unions that all fell apart, 100% of the time.  We also have individual nations that have lasted for thousands of years.  So the data suggests that empires don't work, but sufficiently discrete nations can and do work.

As for the USA, if you are suggesting that the different states are analogous to European countries, then you don't know much about the USA or Europe.  There is no reasonable comparison between US states and European nations - I mean, language alone proves the comparison patently untrue.  Add in social, economic and political differences and it just drives the point home.   And even then, the USA will not likely stand the test of time.  Neither will most of the nations that currently exist on this earth.  The EU most definitely won't.  I doubt it will even survive my lifetime.  I'm older than the EU and it's already falling apart.
There are also numerous small individual nations that didn't last. And there are heterogeneous empires that did, like China. The US and EU are not the same but the US have been a union far longer and it's a union of a different kind. From what I know the US isn't that homogeneous either.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on July 11, 2016, 03:53:44 pm
Obama comes to power saying he was going to wrap up these wars and close Guantanamo.  None of that happened.  He has the distinction of being at war longer than any other president.
He inherited that stinking pile of s**t from the republican president before him and everytime he wanted to do something the republican majority voted against it. That is not power that is a stand of powers and nothing can be done.

Quote
Why on God's Green Earth are we building up US forces in eastern Europe?  If Russia wants Poland back, let them have it!  It's not a US problem.
Indeed it is not, and ww3 is not your problem either if it were not that the nuclear fall out will contaminate the whole world.

See, that's the thing!  Nobody wants the US to intervene until they want us to intervene on their behalf.  Everybody wants to pick and choose for us.  Well, here's a newsflash:  You don't get to make those decisions!

Bush Sr. was right about the ME.  Get in, kill a bunch of people and GTH out!  Did Junior learn from his father?  No!  He just had to try to one-up the old man.  But, hey, the entire region is in flames.  Our work there is done.

And, frankly, if WW III is confined to Europe, I think I would prefer to see us sit it out.  We've been there and done that - a couple of times.
The thing about world wars is that they tend not to be confined to a single continent.

America did its damnedest to sit out both world wars; it only entered WW1 because German U-boats were sinking American ships and the Germans proposed an alliance with Mexico against the USA. And everyone knows why it was forced into WW2.

So, we baited Germany into sinking the Lusitania as it ferried supplies to the UK?  We put US lives at risk and just dared Germany to sink it.  Something like that...  It was in all the papers at the time!

At the government level, the leadership did all they could to get us involved.  The people themselves were reluctant (publically, so was the President) and until something catastrophic happened, we stayed out.  Had we not baited Germany, and placed US lives at risk, the outcome could have been much different.  If we had stayed out of WW I, would we have been able to stay out of WW II?  In both cases, our involvement was a result of our support for the UK.

I just don't see where the US has an obligation to be the world's unwanted policeman.  We should defend the hell out of our borders and let the rest of the world defend theirs.  Nobody likes our politics, nobody likes our economy, they just want to borrow our military for a while.  I wish we were smarter than that.

The UK is in a similar position.  They are the big guns in Europe and Europe may not realize it but they REALLY need the UK.  Maybe not as a member but certainly as a friend.  If the UK sits the next one out, I wouldn't be surprised if we did too.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on July 11, 2016, 04:01:54 pm
There are also numerous small individual nations that didn't last. And there are heterogeneous empires that did, like China. The US and EU are not the same but the US have been a union far longer and it's a union of a different kind. From what I know the US isn't that homogeneous either.

We are not even homogeneous even within an individual state.  California is a perfect example where the population centers have one set of beliefs and the agricultural areas have another.  It is a perfect example of the tyranny of the majority where the entire Central Valley is unrepresented in decision making. Ever wonder why there is a North Carolina and South Carolina?  How about North Dakota and South Dakota, Virginia and West Virginia?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: boffin on July 11, 2016, 04:02:07 pm
And Lush cosmetics to move production from the UK to Germany.  The exodus begins.
http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/14603911.Lush_founder__Voters_said_they_don_t_want_our_EU_staff___we_ll_grow_our_business_in_Germany_instead/ (http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/14603911.Lush_founder__Voters_said_they_don_t_want_our_EU_staff___we_ll_grow_our_business_in_Germany_instead/)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 11, 2016, 04:03:29 pm
That may be the reason why so many choose to come to Sweden. But if we start lowering our standards in order to try to make the refugees go to some other country instead, it will become a race to the bottom. Every country will keep lowering their standards so they don't end up with Sorteper. So it's not really a solution.
They have to be lowered at some point. There is a limit to how many people your society can absorb at a rapid rate. Currently you have about 27% of Sweden's population having at least one foreign born parent. The Swedish government must have thought that limit had been reached since it decided to closer the borders.

The liberal family reunion rules wouldn't be a problem if the refugees were distributed evenly among the member countries. Then all countries could have whatever rules they wanted.
It won't work for two reasons. One is the one I mentioned earlier, that people have the right to move freely so it will be rather pointless to try to confine them to specific parts of the EU. The other one is, of course, that it is abundantly clear that a number of EU countries are against any kind of redistribution of immigrants.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: boffin on July 11, 2016, 04:05:59 pm
Quote
We are not even homogeneous even within an individual state.  California is a perfect example where the population centers have one set of beliefs and the agricultural areas have another.  It is a perfect example of the tyranny of the majority where the entire Central Valley is unrepresented in decision making. Ever wonder why there is a North Carolina and South Carolina?  How about North Dakota and South Dakota, Virginia and West Virginia?

One of the bigger issues is that the US Senate is very undemocratic, with every state getting two representatives. 
Wyoming, population 600,000 - 2 senators
California, population 39,000,000 - 2 senators

This allows the much more conservative small states to hold on to the Senate when that is in no way representative of the people.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 11, 2016, 04:07:22 pm
So, we baited Germany into sinking the Lusitania as it ferried supplies to the UK?  We put US lives at risk and just dared Germany to sink it. 
Yup

(https://jamesperloff.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/german-notice-2.gif)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 11, 2016, 04:07:37 pm
Going back to Brexit, what is the next step? Conservative party elect Cameron's replacement? What is the timeline for that?

Actually we already have a new one (starting on Wednesday), Theresa May will be the new Prime Minister. The second female one in the UK.
Their opponent dropped out, hence the news.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-36570120 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-36570120)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36768148 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36768148)

This was fast. What's the next big step, parliament voting on article 50? What's the expected timeline for that?

..Now the world need to stop using fossil fuels anyway so maybe they will eventually get some peace, if ww3 doesn't happen before that.

Wars happened long before we started to dig the ground for coal.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 11, 2016, 04:09:35 pm
Going back to Brexit, what is the next step? Conservative party elect Cameron's replacement? What is the timeline for that?
Leadsom is no longer a candidate
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 11, 2016, 04:12:14 pm
And Lush cosmetics to move production from the UK to Germany.  The exodus begins.
http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/14603911.Lush_founder__Voters_said_they_don_t_want_our_EU_staff___we_ll_grow_our_business_in_Germany_instead/ (http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/14603911.Lush_founder__Voters_said_they_don_t_want_our_EU_staff___we_ll_grow_our_business_in_Germany_instead/)

Except they're not moving production to Germany. They're opening additional factories in Germany and Croatia (as they announced in February).
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on July 11, 2016, 04:17:07 pm
As to Guantanamo, take the prisoners back to where they came from and close it down. 
Yes why don,t you? You can,t! Youre pushing them to european countries to please take them.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 11, 2016, 04:17:52 pm
You can't compare the demographics of the US with homogeneous societies like Denmark.
Homogeneous? Not so much anymore.
(http://denkorteavis.dk/image.php?image=http://denkorteavis.dk/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/nørrebro-bryllup.jpg&width=615)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: mtdoc on July 11, 2016, 04:20:25 pm

Plus dominant powers, US included, aren't averse to ensuring the local strong man is friendly to the US. Start by considering what happened to the democratically elected President Allende in Chile, and then move onto later examples.

It started well before Allende. The 1953 CIA coup to overthrow the democratically elected Prime Minister of Iran and install a US friendly dictator - the Shah - all at behest of the Oil interests (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%A9tat). This can be argued, was the precursor for all the current problems with US/Ismlamic relations. Blowback (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowback_%28intelligence%29)...

This was closely followed the 1954 CIA coup to overthrow the democratically elected President of Guatemala (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d'%C3%A9tat) and install a US friendly military dictator friendly to the United Fruit Company.

And on it goes - US intelligence and military used to further our corporate/economic interests abroad.....

But we are not unique. It's not an American trait - it is a human trait.   Other empires have done the same throughout history - the British, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Ottoman, Romans, etc, etc...  It's just now we are all currently living with the consequences of the actions of the US empire.




Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 11, 2016, 04:21:35 pm
You can't compare the demographics of the US with homogeneous societies like Denmark.
Homogeneous? Not so much anymore.
(http://denkorteavis.dk/image.php?image=http://denkorteavis.dk/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/nørrebro-bryllup.jpg&width=615)

Don't worry, the immigration will make it homogeneous again.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 11, 2016, 04:24:24 pm
Going back to Brexit, what is the next step? Conservative party elect Cameron's replacement? What is the timeline for that?

Actually we already have a new one (starting on Wednesday), Theresa May will be the new Prime Minister. The second female one in the UK.
Their opponent dropped out, hence the news.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-36570120 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-36570120)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36768148 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36768148)

This was fast. What's the next big step, parliament voting on article 50? What's the expected timeline for that?

..Now the world need to stop using fossil fuels anyway so maybe they will eventually get some peace, if ww3 doesn't happen before that.

Wars happened long before we started to dig the ground for coal.

I think they will either, head for a new general election, because the main opposition (labour) are potentially weak at the moment, and suffering from their own leadership battles.

Or they will press on, and handle the article 50 thing.

I'm NOT sure which they will do. If it is the general election option, I presume they will delay the article 50, until AFTER the new elections.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 11, 2016, 04:31:11 pm
That may be the reason why so many choose to come to Sweden. But if we start lowering our standards in order to try to make the refugees go to some other country instead, it will become a race to the bottom. Every country will keep lowering their standards so they don't end up with Sorteper. So it's not really a solution.
They have to be lowered at some point. There is a limit to how many people your society can absorb at a rapid rate. Currently you have about 27% of Sweden's population having at least one foreign born parent. The Swedish government must have thought that limit had been reached since it decided to closer the borders.
No they wouldn't have had to be lowered if all other European countries did their part, Sweden can not absorb all the refugees coming into EU, nor can any other European country, but if the refugees were distributed evenly each country would have received less refugees than Germany per person. Yes there is a limit to how many can be absorbed per unit of time, and Sweden reached that limit for a few weeks last year as you say. The border isn't closed, there is a temporary border control, anyone who wants can still apply for asylum. It's mostly a piece of theater for the locals, and it doesn't cause trouble for people in Stockholm so they don't care.
As for the 27%: when I grew up I had a friend who's mom was from Denmark, and another one who's mom was from Poland. They were both cool despite that. ;) :-+
Now there are about 5% muslims in Sweden, mainly refugees because of the Iraq wars as well as the war in afghanistan, the ones I know are also decent people.

The liberal family reunion rules wouldn't be a problem if the refugees were distributed evenly among the member countries. Then all countries could have whatever rules they wanted.
It won't work for two reasons. One is the one I mentioned earlier, that people have the right to move freely so it will be rather pointless to try to confine them to specific parts of the EU. The other one is, of course, that it is abundantly clear that a number of EU countries are against any kind of redistribution of immigrants.
As I said before I don't think people will move once they have become comfortable in one place. As for the second point, there is a minority that opposes the idea, but they may yet see the light.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 11, 2016, 04:34:50 pm

I think they will either, head for a new general election, because the main opposition (labour) are potentially weak at the moment, and suffering from their own leadership battles.

Or they will press on, and handle the article 50 thing.

I'm NOT sure which they will do. If it is the general election option, I presume they will delay the article 50, until AFTER the new elections.

It makes sense to stabilize the new leadership before pulling article 50 and negotiating with the remaining EU. Otherwise you will have two fronts.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 11, 2016, 04:42:37 pm
The border isn't closed, there is a temporary border control, anyone who wants can still apply for asylum.
They can apply for asylum if they manage to reach Swedish soil. Your government is shrewd, though, and it introduced "transportöransvar" (which it is its right to according to the Schengen rules) so they can fine rail and bus companies that transport immigrants with phoney papers or none at all to Sweden. As a result, the companies refuse to let people whose papers are not in order continue to Sweden from Denmark.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 11, 2016, 04:50:35 pm

I think they will either, head for a new general election, because the main opposition (labour) are potentially weak at the moment, and suffering from their own leadership battles.

Or they will press on, and handle the article 50 thing.

I'm NOT sure which they will do. If it is the general election option, I presume they will delay the article 50, until AFTER the new elections.

It makes sense to stabilize the new leadership before pulling article 50 and negotiating with the remaining EU. Otherwise you will have two fronts.

That makes quite a lot of sense.

On a more practical level. Hopefully, now that the NEW prime minister is settled. The financial aspects of Brexit, such as the value of the Pound, will begin to stabilize.

Much of the Electronics and computing stuff, is essentially priced relative to the dollar. So on a personal level, I would NOT like the pound to be low valued, for a huge length of time (when I want to buy stuff). On the other hand, a low valued pound, creates many opportunities for people to export stuff, and make a healthy profit.

So I guess it is just swings and roundabouts. I.e. There are pros and cons, either way.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 11, 2016, 04:51:23 pm

Plus dominant powers, US included, aren't averse to ensuring the local strong man is friendly to the US. Start by considering what happened to the democratically elected President Allende in Chile, and then move onto later examples.

It started well before Allende. The 1953 CIA coup to overthrow the democratically elected Prime Minister of Iran and install a US friendly dictator - the Shah - all at behest of the Oil interests (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%A9tat). This can be argued, was the precursor for all the current problems with US/Ismlamic relations. Blowback (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowback_%28intelligence%29)...

This was closely followed the 1954 CIA coup to overthrow the democratically elected President of Guatemala (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d'%C3%A9tat) and install a US friendly military dictator friendly to the United Fruit Company.

And on it goes - US intelligence and military used to further our corporate/economic interests abroad.....

But we are not unique. It's not an American trait - it is a human trait.   Other empires have done the same throughout history - the British, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Ottoman, Romans, etc, etc...  It's just now we are all currently living with the consequences of the actions of the US empire.

Yes on all counts.

My use of "start" was ambiguous; I meant zapta should first consider and then move onto other examples. Chile/Allende is simply one of the more well-documented, modern and egregious examples.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 11, 2016, 05:00:24 pm

I think they will either, head for a new general election, because the main opposition (labour) are potentially weak at the moment, and suffering from their own leadership battles.

Or they will press on, and handle the article 50 thing.

I'm NOT sure which they will do. If it is the general election option, I presume they will delay the article 50, until AFTER the new elections.

It makes sense to stabilize the new leadership before pulling article 50 and negotiating with the remaining EU. Otherwise you will have two fronts.

You presume it can be stabilised.

The two halves of the Tory party are still at war with each other. Ditto Labour. And even the UKIP mob (and I use that word advisedly) divide into brexit-max and brexit-lite tribes.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 11, 2016, 05:04:33 pm

You presume it can be stabilised.

The two halves of the Tory party are still at war with each other. Ditto Labour. And even the UKIP mob (and I use that word advisedly) divide into brexit-max and brexit-lite tribes.

Sadly, I have to agree with you.

HOPEFULLY it will help stabilise the situation, but as you say, it might NOT!

Anyway, I would at least expect that it should improve the situation at least a bit. Otherwise there would have been a long delay (9 weeks) before we get to where we are now.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 11, 2016, 05:08:29 pm

You presume it can be stabilised.

The two halves of the Tory party are still at war with each other. Ditto Labour. And even the UKIP mob (and I use that word advisedly) divide into brexit-max and brexit-lite tribes.

Sadly, I have to agree with you.

HOPEFULLY it will help stabilise the situation, but as you say, it might NOT!

Anyway, I would at least expect that it should improve the situation at least a bit. Otherwise there would have been a long delay (9 weeks) before we get to where we are now.

Indeed.

It is unlikely to make things worse, just to move them on to the next stage (and that next stage may be better or worse than the current stage).
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: retrolefty on July 11, 2016, 05:29:08 pm
Quote
We are not even homogeneous even within an individual state.  California is a perfect example where the population centers have one set of beliefs and the agricultural areas have another.  It is a perfect example of the tyranny of the majority where the entire Central Valley is unrepresented in decision making. Ever wonder why there is a North Carolina and South Carolina?  How about North Dakota and South Dakota, Virginia and West Virginia?

One of the bigger issues is that the US Senate is very undemocratic, with every state getting two representatives. 
Wyoming, population 600,000 - 2 senators
California, population 39,000,000 - 2 senators

This allows the much more conservative small states to hold on to the Senate when that is in no way representative of the people.

 This was/is a feature of the U.S. Constitution. The Senate as you stated were to represent a specific State with equal representation with other States. The House of Representatives was tasked with representing the interests of the people based on population density subject to adjustment by the decade U.S. census. Originally each State legislature selected their two senators rather then by the people of the State in general elections as now practiced.

 I think that was a pretty cleaver design.  Recall that neither the House or the Senate can pass laws by themselves and only then if the President allows the law to be implemented by not using his/her veto power.

 Checks and balances as they say. Even the general public's 'power' needs to be subject to a balance of power as tyranny can come from any quarter.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rolycat on July 11, 2016, 06:32:07 pm
...
Checks and balances as they say. Even the general public's 'power' needs to be subject to a balance of power as tyranny can come from any quarter.
Especially the general public's power:

Quote from: Alexander Hamilton
It has been observed by an honorable gentleman that a pure democracy, if it were practicable, would be the most perfect government. Experience has proved that no position in politics is more false than this. The ancient democracies in which the people themselves deliberated never possessed one good feature of government. Their very character was tyranny; their figure deformity.

The Brexit vote has just admirably demonstrated the tyranny of the majority.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on July 11, 2016, 06:43:35 pm
Why on God's Green Earth are we building up US forces in eastern Europe?  If Russia wants Poland back, let them have it!  It's not a US problem.
The problem is that when the US pulls back the people in the US will focus their attention on the (huge) domestic problems and expect solutions from the politicians. Creating a foreign enemy to distract voters from real issues at hand is the oldest trick in the political book to gain the freedom to do whatever a politician wants. Fortunately for the politicians in the US the communist wich hunt in the 50's has instilled so much fear that even today there a lots of gullible suckers which will do whatever is necessary to avoid the Russian communist thread even though the USSR no longer exists and Russia has become Capitalist with the Capital C.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 11, 2016, 06:54:18 pm
...even though the USSR no longer exists and Russia has become Capitalist with the Capital C.

Maybe a threat is still there but the names have changed?

Of course, the threat of turning off the gas supply is probably more effective than military force.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on July 11, 2016, 08:16:58 pm
The US always needs a boogeyman.  It was the Russians for a while, the Chinese, al-Qaeda, the Taliban, whomever.  We need to focus our attention away from the problems we have at home.

And then we have the Washington Post publishing inflammatory stuff like this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/white-americas-biggest-nightmare-black-men-who-violently-sow-disillusionment/2016/07/09/dd89a77e-4617-11e6-8856-f26de2537a9d_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/white-americas-biggest-nightmare-black-men-who-violently-sow-disillusionment/2016/07/09/dd89a77e-4617-11e6-8856-f26de2537a9d_story.html)

Does it seem to anybody that I am losing sleep over this stuff?

Anybody remember Janet Napolitano and the DHS stating that the biggest threat of terrorism in the US was from returning veterans and members of certain 'extremist' groups like the NRA?  I do...  And now she's the Chancellor of the University of California:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAygnB-xQCY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAygnB-xQCY)

Always looking for a boogeyman!



Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on July 11, 2016, 10:28:38 pm
"We freed them from a dictator and set free elections. "

Tough to appreciate your freedom when you are dead.

I don't for a second believe that bush went into the war for oil. I think he went in with a noble goal of giving those people freedom.

I think he is fundamentally wrong in that doing so imposes his value system onto a people not ready for it. In that perspective, he is no different from Taliban, in their desires to impose their value systems onto others forcefully.

There is some truth to the notion that the US is the biggest risk to peace. Just look at the number of wars over the last 100 years, especially since the downfall of the USSR.

Because of that, I'm the biggest supporter of foreign policy principles of Obama, Trump and Paul. They all called for minimum use of military forces overseas, with a focus on homeland defense.

Unfortunately we have a Republican congress that doesn't understand why you have a strong military, a defense secretary who doesn't appreciate us strategic interests, and some generals whose more interested in fighting wars than fighting off us enemies.

In the end, a strong military can lead the US to its own demise, aka USSR replay.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 11, 2016, 10:35:09 pm
The US always needs a boogeyman.

It is a standard tactic across the ages, all over the world.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on July 11, 2016, 10:51:39 pm
If you follow MAD, a peaceful world consists of plarity of comparable powers who are committed to each other's destruction. Oxymoron of the ultimate kind.

A multipolar world is in everyone's long term interests, including the US's as well.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Zero999 on July 12, 2016, 11:06:45 am
The liberal family reunion rules wouldn't be a problem if the refugees were distributed evenly among the member countries. Then all countries could have whatever rules they wanted.
That's hardly fair either. Things such as: land area, existing population density, existing levels of immigration, availability of housing need to be taken into account, before deciding how many refugees a country should take.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on July 12, 2016, 11:37:44 am
Now there are about 5% Muslims in Sweden, mainly refugees because of the Iraq wars as well as the war in Afghanistan, the ones I know are also decent people.

Decent people, but often with an indecent religion ... with few signs of becoming any more decent.

In my opinion the reason Judaism reformed and softened away from the old testament was weakness and the inability of the community to police its own (although if by some fluke of history the temple and Sanhedrin get reconstituted I think it's going to get ugly too, their absence is a corner stone for much of the justification for the softening and Israel's secularism). For Islam globalization, Saudi wealth and the increasing visibility of divergent beliefs has elevated community policing to a global level in a way which in the past would only have been possible on a local level. The Ahmadis had an easier time when the hate for them had to spread by word of mouth.

I think the opportunity for reform from within Islam itself has passed for the moment.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on July 12, 2016, 11:47:24 am
Now there are about 5% Muslims in Sweden, mainly refugees because of the Iraq wars as well as the war in Afghanistan, the ones I know are also decent people.
Decent people, but often with an indecent religion ... with no signs of becoming any more decent.
Sorry but I have to strongly disagree with that. I'm not religious myself but I don't see any mainstream religion in itself as evil.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on July 12, 2016, 11:51:21 am
Quote
I think the opportunity for reform from within Islam itself has passed.
Naah it is a question of time and exposure to different ways of living.
Look at Indonesia, the laws became more stringent each year and there came an anti movement, illegal bars (beer and other alcohol was forbidden), clothing for women etc.
Now the government is changing its laws because a lot of people think they went too far.
Also in SA you see young twentiers partying and dancing on music etc. etc. The whole system is based on fear, if you do something wrong you will be horribly punished, but a lot of people do not want to live anymore accoding to these stringent rules, so they will leave.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on July 12, 2016, 12:24:10 pm
Sorry but I have to strongly disagree with that. I'm not religious myself but I don't see any mainstream religion in itself as evil.

That's nice, it's not reciprocal.

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled."

This Surah is recognized as being written during his last campaign, the section is known as the ultimatum. I'd rather not condemn anyone to that ultimatum.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on July 12, 2016, 12:31:14 pm
The whole system is based on fear, if you do something wrong you will be horribly punished, but a lot of people do not want to live anymore accoding to these stringent rules, so they will leave.

If they truly leave, ie. public apostasy, it's generally accompanied by leaving to the west.

Islam is caught in an oscillation between non-observance and revivalism, but the death penalty for apostasy maintains its core doctrine and hold on a population pretty well.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 12, 2016, 12:39:28 pm
The liberal family reunion rules wouldn't be a problem if the refugees were distributed evenly among the member countries. Then all countries could have whatever rules they wanted.
That's hardly fair either. Things such as: land area, existing population density, existing levels of immigration, availability of housing need to be taken into account, before deciding how many refugees a country should take.
I am pretty sure that's actually what Apis meant.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on July 12, 2016, 12:41:25 pm
Sorry but I have to strongly disagree with that. I'm not religious myself but I don't see any mainstream religion in itself as evil.
That's nice, it's not reciprocal.

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled."
It doesn't say kill or injure but then again it may be an inaccurate translation. You'll probably find similar phrases in all religious scriptures.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on July 12, 2016, 01:20:26 pm
It doesn't say kill or injure but then again it may be an inaccurate translation. You'll probably find similar phrases in all religious scriptures.

What, they are going to shine a bright light into my eyes till I pay Jizyah?

The New Testament doesn't really do prescribed Earthly punishment or conquering by the sword, you shun people and the rest is up to government. The Torah is full of stuff like that (and Rambam is a bit of an asshole as well) but because of their concept of oral Torah and the absence of the Temple they have a ton of leeway, few would be able to find doctrinal justification for stoning reform Judaists (with enough mental gymnastics you can read anything into anything, it's just a lot easier in Islam).
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 12, 2016, 03:15:39 pm
The New Testament doesn't really do prescribed Earthly punishment or conquering by the sword, you shun people and the rest is up to government.

Judaism is one of those religions that do not evangelize. If you want to stay Christian it's just fine. This cuts the incentive for spreading the religion by sword. Compare for example with Islam and past Christianity.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on July 12, 2016, 03:47:25 pm
Judaism is one of those religions that do not evangelize.

Rambam supported expansion and imposing Noahide laws by force, as I said ... bit of an asshole.

PS. none of this is relevant without a proper king, temple and Sanhedrin. The seeds for a much less friendly Judaism are definitely there though, if they ever rebuild the temple.

"7. All of the above pertains only when Israel is exiled among the nations or when the gentiles hold sway. But when Israel holds sway over the nations of the world, we are forbidden to tolerate a gentile who worships an alien deity in our midst"
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 12, 2016, 05:12:23 pm
"7. All of the above pertains only when Israel is exiled among the nations or when the gentiles hold sway. But when Israel holds sway over the nations of the world, we are forbidden to tolerate a gentile who worships an alien deity in our midst"

Tell it to Israel. They have a Christian on their supreme court.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salim_Joubran

As for reforming the Muslims, one attempt for the establishment of the Bahá'í  faith in the 19th. This is a very tolerant and progressive religion with ~5M followers world wide. Naturally they are prosecuted in Muslim countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%ADs
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Zero999 on July 12, 2016, 07:49:53 pm
The liberal family reunion rules wouldn't be a problem if the refugees were distributed evenly among the member countries. Then all countries could have whatever rules they wanted.
That's hardly fair either. Things such as: land area, existing population density, existing levels of immigration, availability of housing need to be taken into account, before deciding how many refugees a country should take.
I am pretty sure that's actually what Apis meant.
I hope so. It just seems to be implied here that all countries need to have the refugees spread evenly. I agree that the UK could and should take more but there's not much space, compared to France. I think Russia should also take a lot of refugees as they've played their part in messing up the Middle East and it's the largest country in the world, by area so they're hardly short of space.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 12, 2016, 10:56:19 pm
Quote
We are not even homogeneous even within an individual state.  California is a perfect example where the population centers have one set of beliefs and the agricultural areas have another.  It is a perfect example of the tyranny of the majority where the entire Central Valley is unrepresented in decision making. Ever wonder why there is a North Carolina and South Carolina?  How about North Dakota and South Dakota, Virginia and West Virginia?

One of the bigger issues is that the US Senate is very undemocratic, with every state getting two representatives. 
Wyoming, population 600,000 - 2 senators
California, population 39,000,000 - 2 senators

This allows the much more conservative small states to hold on to the Senate when that is in no way representative of the people.

 This was/is a feature of the U.S. Constitution. The Senate as you stated were to represent a specific State with equal representation with other States. The House of Representatives was tasked with representing the interests of the people based on population density subject to adjustment by the decade U.S. census. Originally each State legislature selected their two senators rather then by the people of the State in general elections as now practiced.

 I think that was a pretty cleaver design.  Recall that neither the House or the Senate can pass laws by themselves and only then if the President allows the law to be implemented by not using his/her veto power.

 Checks and balances as they say. Even the general public's 'power' needs to be subject to a balance of power as tyranny can come from any quarter.
They forgot to add checks and balances to the presidents power with regard to foreign policy though.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 12, 2016, 11:12:15 pm
The liberal family reunion rules wouldn't be a problem if the refugees were distributed evenly among the member countries. Then all countries could have whatever rules they wanted.
That's hardly fair either. Things such as: land area, existing population density, existing levels of immigration, availability of housing need to be taken into account, before deciding how many refugees a country should take.
I am pretty sure that's actually what Apis meant.
I hope so. It just seems to be implied here that all countries need to have the refugees spread evenly. I agree that the UK could and should take more but there's not much space, compared to France. I think Russia should also take a lot of refugees as they've played their part in messing up the Middle East and it's the largest country in the world, by area so they're hardly short of space.
Tepe is right, that's what I meant.
There are many countries that could do more, but that would require a stronger UN probably. If the UK and US had listened to the UN and not invaded Iraq we wouldn't have had this problem to begin with. It sort of also gave Putin an excuse to ignore the UN when Russia did whatever it was they did in the Ukraine.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 12, 2016, 11:29:14 pm
Quote
I think the opportunity for reform from within Islam itself has passed.
Naah it is a question of time and exposure to different ways of living.
Look at Indonesia, the laws became more stringent each year and there came an anti movement, illegal bars (beer and other alcohol was forbidden), clothing for women etc.
Now the government is changing its laws because a lot of people think they went too far.
Also in SA you see young twentiers partying and dancing on music etc. etc. The whole system is based on fear, if you do something wrong you will be horribly punished, but a lot of people do not want to live anymore accoding to these stringent rules, so they will leave.
I think so too. As people grow up in Europe they will see a different way of life and that it doesn't cause the end of the world, the majority of those who still want religion will want reform. In Europe they can do it relatively safely because of freedom of religion here.

It was the same in the middle ages here, if you were an atheist you would have been tortured to death. Christian mobs burned down the library of Alexandria, burned mathematical books and other heathen devilish nonsense. They also liked to burn people, witches and scientist like poor Galileo. And the church didn't admit the Galileo sentence was a mistake until 1992. :palm:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 12, 2016, 11:41:52 pm
I hope so. It just seems to be implied here that all countries need to have the refugees spread evenly. I agree that the UK could and should take more but there's not much space, compared to France. I think Russia should also take a lot of refugees as they've played their part in messing up the Middle East and it's the largest country in the world, by area so they're hardly short of space.
The majority aren't refugees they are economic imigrants.
No, only refugees with a valid reason for asylum are allowed to stay, everyone else are deported. No country in the world consider poverty a valid reason for asylum. They have valid reasons of asylum because of the Iraq war and the civil wars that followed.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on July 12, 2016, 11:44:06 pm
If the UK and US had listened to the UN and not invaded Iraq we wouldn't have had this problem to begin with.

So you were OK with the staus quo in the middle east? You seem to be a humanitarian so I can't understand how you could be so concerned with the current migrants but were quite happy to have the kurds and shia live in repression and be subject to regular slaughter. You do recall that saddam was gassing the kurds and after the allied withdrawl he was doing whole sale slaughter to them and became even more oppresive to any potential adversaries who might exploit his vunerabilty after the war. Assuming no second intervention what time frame would you give before a full scale civil war kurd and shia vs sunni?

What people (left wing) seem to forget is that a lot of media were wanting intervention to protect the kurds and other religous minorities within Iraq it wasn't just the hawks wanting a second intervention. The left wanted protection for the kurds as well as other persecuted minorities as well. How would you propose to do this without firing a shot GANDHI?

Oh lets not forget the neverending Arab and Israeli conflict that flares up on a regular basis. Whats your plan there move everyone Arab and Jew to Sweden? Have fun.

You're tainting the "It's all Bush's fault!" rhetoric with facts.  You shouldn't do that!

Saddam did everything he could to convince his enemies that he had WMDs.  He had to do that to keep Iran at bay (among others).  That is was all a bluff didn't come up until AFTER we invaded.  Now, a TRILLION dollars later, we're still trying to get out.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on July 13, 2016, 12:38:36 am
Saddam did everything he could to convince his enemies that he had WMDs.  He had to do that to keep Iran at bay (among others).  That is was all a bluff didn't come up until AFTER we invaded.
That isn't true. Even back then there was enough information to conclude the WMDs wheren't there. Start here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/06/chilcot-report-2003-iraq-war-was-unnecessary-and-invasion-was-no/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/06/chilcot-report-2003-iraq-war-was-unnecessary-and-invasion-was-no/)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 13, 2016, 01:06:22 am
Saddam did everything he could to convince his enemies that he had WMDs.  He had to do that to keep Iran at bay (among others).  That is was all a bluff didn't come up until AFTER we invaded.
That isn't true. Even back then there was enough information to conclude the WMDs wheren't there. Start here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/06/chilcot-report-2003-iraq-war-was-unnecessary-and-invasion-was-no/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/06/chilcot-report-2003-iraq-war-was-unnecessary-and-invasion-was-no/)
Indeed. The UN weapons inspectors did not find evidence of WMDs and said as much before the war. As far as I know neither the CIA and MI5, nor any one else, believed Saddam posed a threat. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/tony-blair-misrepresented-intelligence-on-weapons-of-mass-destruction-to-gain-approval-for-iraq-war-a6713401.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/tony-blair-misrepresented-intelligence-on-weapons-of-mass-destruction-to-gain-approval-for-iraq-war-a6713401.html)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 13, 2016, 02:02:14 am
Apis and  nctino Let’s assume you are right, all the wrong in the ME is due to foreign intervention. Can you state anytime there was actually real peace and stability there? I know I can’t. I’m not including a dictator as stability because really, stability is only for those in the dictator’s favour for anyone else it’s anything but stability.
There have been wars everywhere throughout history. Two world wars started in Europe!


So you were OK with the staus quo in the middle east? You seem to be a humanitarian so I can't understand how you could be so concerned with the current migrants but were quite happy to have the kurds and shia live in repression and be subject to regular slaughter. You do recall that saddam was gassing the kurds and after the allied withdrawl he was doing whole sale slaughter to them and became even more oppresive to any potential adversaries who might exploit his vunerabilty after the war. Assuming no second intervention what time frame would you give before a full scale civil war kurd and shia vs sunni?
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/revealed-how-the-west-set-saddam-on-the-bloody-road-to-power-1258618.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/revealed-how-the-west-set-saddam-on-the-bloody-road-to-power-1258618.html)

If Saddam has done a tenth of what he has been accused of I don't feel sorry for him. But what about the other, over 100 000 people, who were killed in the war? How many injured? How many killed in the civil wars in the neighboring regions? How many lost a loved one? How many murdered by ISIS. There are now literally millions of refugees in camps around the world fleeing from that region whose lives are ruined.

Here's a thought experiment: Bush was a bad man, would you have advocated invading the USA in order to force a regime change? I wouldn't because that would certainly have caused much more suffering and horror than what Bush managed to cause on his own. Even if it would have been certain it would have prevented the Iraq war and all the suffering it caused.

Did the Iraq war make the world a safer place? No. Now everyone are being targeted by ISIS terrorists who make Al Qaeda seem like kittens. (And Bush and Blair were told this would happen by their own security advisers.) You just can't fight fire with fire.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on July 13, 2016, 02:56:19 am

Here's a thought experiment: Bush was a bad man, would you have advocated invading the USA in order to force a regime change? I wouldn't because that would certainly have caused much more suffering and horror than what Bush managed to cause on his own. Even if it would have been certain it would have prevented the Iraq war and all the suffering it caused.


Good thing it's a 'thought experiment'!  There are 100 MILLION gun owners in the US and 300 MILLION firearms.  Not counting military or law enforcement, of course.  During WWII, one of the Japanese generals stated that they couldn't invade the US because there would be a rifleman behind every blade of grass.

I remember watching Colin Powell (an honorable man) testify before the UN about the Iraq WMDs.  We had TVs in the cafeteria and the speech occurred during the lunch hour.  I was convinced!  A lot of people were convinced!  Colin Powell is an honorable man.  He was lied to...  You will notice that he didn't re-enlist for the second presidency.

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/2/6/decade_after_iraq_wmd_speech_at (http://www.democracynow.org/2013/2/6/decade_after_iraq_wmd_speech_at)

Note especially where a lot of the intel came from:
Quote
COL. LAWRENCE WILKERSON: The information came from, in our intelligence system at the time, the 16 entities that compose our intelligence services, and spoken for by the then-master of that intelligence community, George Tenet, the director of Central Intelligence, and vouchsafed multiple times by his deputy, the DDCI, John McLaughlin. But it came from a much wider array, Amy. It came from Israel. It came from France. It came from Jordan. It came from Germany. Indeed, it came from almost every intelligence service that, at one time or another, had fed into the U.S. process with regard to Iraq. And frankly, we were all wrong. Was the intelligence politicized in addition to being wrong at its roots? Absolutely. And the leader of that politicization was the vice president of the United States, Richard Cheney.

More than anyone, I blame Cheney.

But it's worth noting that several countries that complain about the outcome were right there leading the charge (well, with no real commitment).

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: steverino on July 13, 2016, 04:22:01 am
If the UK and US had listened to the UN and not invaded Iraq we wouldn't have had this problem to begin with.

So you were OK with the staus quo in the middle east? You seem to be a humanitarian so I can't understand how you could be so concerned with the current migrants but were quite happy to have the kurds and shia live in repression and be subject to regular slaughter. You do recall that saddam was gassing the kurds and after the allied withdrawl he was doing whole sale slaughter to them and became even more oppresive to any potential adversaries who might exploit his vunerabilty after the war. Assuming no second intervention what time frame would you give before a full scale civil war kurd and shia vs sunni?

What people (left wing) seem to forget is that a lot of media were wanting intervention to protect the kurds and other religous minorities within Iraq it wasn't just the hawks wanting a second intervention. The left wanted protection for the kurds as well as other persecuted minorities as well. How would you propose to do this without firing a shot GANDHI?

Oh lets not forget the neverending Arab and Israeli conflict that flares up on a regular basis. Whats your plan there move everyone Arab and Jew to Sweden? Have fun.

You're tainting the "It's all Bush's fault!" rhetoric with facts.  You shouldn't do that!

Saddam did everything he could to convince his enemies that he had WMDs.  He had to do that to keep Iran at bay (among others).  That is was all a bluff didn't come up until AFTER we invaded.  Now, a TRILLION dollars later, we're still trying to get out.
You really believe WMD's had anything to do with the Iraq invasion?  That was just a pretext for US meddling in the middle east that predated 9/11 and WMD concerns.  Look up "Project for the New American Century" document in wikipedia.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 13, 2016, 06:36:39 am
Good thing it's a 'thought experiment'!  There are 100 MILLION gun owners in the US and 300 MILLION firearms.
The majority of whom wouldn't last long against any real army.

Not counting military or law enforcement, of course.
Now, that's a completely different story  :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on July 13, 2016, 08:46:12 am
Good thing it's a 'thought experiment'!  There are 100 MILLION gun owners in the US and 300 MILLION firearms.
The majority of whom wouldn't last long against any real army.
In a stand up fight you are probably right but it would end up being a guerilla/resistance affair and conventional armies do not do so well against those.

We have drifted off topic - the argument now is hard Brexit vs soft Brexit amd how likely we are to be able to negotiate concessions on the movement of labour and whether Theresa May will "make it" as Brexit PM.

I don't think a General Election at the moment would be useful - especially not with the Labour party in turmoil. It has been said that TM is "unelected" but, in fact, we don't directly elect a PM in this country and she has been "elected" by the conservative MPs.

Perhaps if we can start to negotiate the overall shape of our withdrawal without triggering Article 50, then put it to a GE in 2020 with a reformed Labour party standing for "we'll ignore it all and stay in" and the Tories standing behind "out, on these terms" we would truly be able to say that there was a popular mandate for the future. I also believe in faeries at the bottom of the garden, of course :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kalvin on July 13, 2016, 08:56:56 am
Perhaps if we can start to negotiate the overall shape of our withdrawal without triggering Article 50, then put it to a GE in 2020 with a reformed Labour party standing for "we'll ignore it all and stay in" and the Tories standing behind "out, on these terms" we would truly be able to say that there was a popular mandate for the future. I also believe in faeries at the bottom of the garden, of course :)

EU has been very specific that UK has to first trigger Article 50, and only after that any negotiations may take place.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Brumby on July 13, 2016, 09:11:55 am
EU has been very specific that UK has to first trigger Article 50, and only after that any negotiations may take place.

That would seem to be a simple matter of logic.

Until Article 50 is triggered, all the noise about the UK leaving is just that - noise.  Any turmoil, question, doubt, intentions or plans that may circulate within the UK is irrelevant. As far as the EU is concerned, contractually, there is nothing actually being undertaken until Article 50 is in play.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 13, 2016, 09:17:34 am
Perhaps if we can start to negotiate the overall shape of our withdrawal without triggering Article 50, then put it to a GE in 2020 with a reformed Labour party standing for "we'll ignore it all and stay in" and the Tories standing behind "out, on these terms" we would truly be able to say that there was a popular mandate for the future. I also believe in faeries at the bottom of the garden, of course :)
I don't really see why the other EU countries would want to enter into any form of negotiation before Article 50 has been invoked. It would make it too easy for the UK to hold the rest hostage for a very long time by dangling a we-may-elect-to-stay-if-only carrot.

While I do think it is a shame that the referendum ended as it did, I do think that May must trigger Article 50 and do it soon. Simply for the sake of the British democracy. The people has spoken and it should be taken seriously.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 13, 2016, 09:24:09 am
While I do think it is a shame that the referendum ended as it did, I do think that May must trigger Article 50 and do it soon. Simply for the sake of the British democracy. The people have spoken and it should be taken seriously.

Our democracy is in deep trouble whether or not article 50 is triggered. The Tory party is deeply split between brexit-max and brexit-lite factions. The Labour party is AWOL and deeply split between MPs and hard-left constituents, and is having a leadership election; until last night it was unclear whether the leader would even be allowed to stand for being leader again!

Many brexit votes were (understandably) cast out of desperation and lack of hope. When they realise they will be even worse off, I fear their reaction. Welcome to the 1930s Weimar Republic.

As for "taking people seriously", what should happen when they realise their mistake and want to change it?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tandy on July 13, 2016, 09:26:28 am
You are correct the EU has stated that negotiations can not start until article 50 has been initiated.

I do think that very soon the UK government should make a statement that their intention is to secure a deal that allows all EU citizens living in the UK to stay (except those convicted of a crime during their stay) on the understanding that the EU provides the same for UK citizens already living in the EU. That would give reassurance to people who are living in a different country and to businesses that employ them. It would also cause great damage to the EU's credibility if they refuse to agree to that as it would show that they are not representing the interests of the people of the EU.

our government should make it a simple like for like offer not try and ties any other things to it. All other aspects such as trade and free movement should be negotiated separately from the issue of the security of people who have settled in another country.

Essentially Brexit is what it is and the politicians need to stop their political posturing about who lied about what and get on with finding the best path forward to ensure that fallout is minimised and that a sensible ongoing relationship is negotiated. It is not good speculating what might have been if the vote went the other way or asking will the EU project fail. We have to take things at face value and do something, already scientific research is loosing funding as European alliances don't want UK partners as they fear they won't get funding. So the deal needs to be done quickly so that UK scientists either know that funding will be available for at least the next 2 years or that the UK is going to stop paying into the EU and fund research directly.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kalvin on July 13, 2016, 09:30:28 am
While I do think it is a shame that the referendum ended as it did, I do think that May must trigger Article 50 and do it soon. Simply for the sake of the British democracy. The people has spoken and it should be taken seriously.

For the sake of democracy, it is not yet totally clear whether the PM can even trigger Article 50 without the Parliament's approval. Although the Brexit was a victory for the British democracy and empty/fake promises, triggering the Article 50 needs to be executed according to the UK laws.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 13, 2016, 09:33:03 am
As for "taking people seriously", what should happen when they realise their mistake and want to change it?
That will depend on how long they take to realize it, won't it?  With a bit of luck something might be possible even after invoking Article 50 while the two year period is still running though it would probably be difficult - after all, the EU negotiators will have you by the balls in that situation.  After it has run out it will probably be very hard to get opt-outs and rebates if you should decide to join again.

But that doesn't answer the question of how the people can tell parliament that it changed its mind...  :-//

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 13, 2016, 09:59:55 am
But that doesn't answer the question of how the people can tell parliament that it changed its mind...  :-//

If opinion polls and/or common sense observations, showed a major swing, in a particular direction.

E.g. If the EU made major changes and announcements, which significantly changed the landscape. E.g. changes to how "free movement" works, etc etc.

The government should/would be able to spin things, such that a general election (with one side offering a second referendum) and/or second referendum takes place.

52% vs 48% is pretty close, and two years+ is a long time (in some respects).

The second referendum could be something like:

(A)...Deal A, and Leave
(B)...Deal B, and Leave
(C)...Remain and accept compromise deal C

But in practice, the decisions been made, and changing it would be rather difficult.

Also once article 50 has been activated. As far as I know, there is NO mechanism for reversing it. Except rejoining, at some later date. Which could take a VERY long time.

There could also be legal challenges, if there were attempts to change it. Since the vote has already occurred, it is too late.

I suppose one solution, would be for parliament to vote on if to have a second referendum or not. Since I think they need to vote, in order to (legally) activate article 50, anyway. If I remember correctly, September 4th 2016, they are debating having a second referendum, anyway, since it has been requested by lots of people, online.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on July 13, 2016, 10:16:10 am
Perhaps if we can start to negotiate the overall shape of our withdrawal without triggering Article 50, then put it to a GE in 2020 with a reformed Labour party standing for "we'll ignore it all and stay in" and the Tories standing behind "out, on these terms" we would truly be able to say that there was a popular mandate for the future. I also believe in faeries at the bottom of the garden, of course :)

EU has been very specific that UK has to first trigger Article 50, and only after that any negotiations may take place.
Junker has been specific, others less so.

There has also been debate as to whether Article 50 is the sole route to leaving.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 13, 2016, 10:21:53 am
Junker has been specific, others less so.
Exactly! After all, Juncker is not really the one who calls the shots. This is for the Council to decide (meaning France and Germany can throw their weight around).
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 13, 2016, 10:23:24 am
Junker has been specific, others less so.

There has also been debate as to whether Article 50 is the sole route to leaving.

I've heard from recent news sources, that the meetings are occurring (or going to occur), anyway. We can just ignore the EU, and just meet up with the relevant parties, outside of the EU buildings etc. Hence the news report, which was (something on the lines of) that the EU people are complaining, that we are planing to do just that.

We are free to talk to anyone in the EU, about anything we like. The EU can't affect that. They can moan about it, sure. But they are NOT in a position to do much about it.

I think (realistically), it is expected to take about 5 years. Even that may still be overly optimistic.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on July 13, 2016, 10:43:03 am
"their intention is to secure a deal that allows all EU citizens living in the UK to stay (except those convicted of a crime during their stay) on the understanding that the EU provides the same for UK citizens already living in the EU. "

That's counterintuitive and against the spirit of brexit, driven mostly by immigration concerns.

I think a more likely case is for the UK to have country specific deals with individual countries, not with EU. This allows UK the ability to pick and choose who can stay and who must leave.

This will be good for Western Europeans and bad for Eastern Europeans and other migrants.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 13, 2016, 10:57:49 am
Probably best we ignore commissioners as far as is possible some of them are quite clearly insane http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36678222 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36678222)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 13, 2016, 10:59:19 am
As for "taking people seriously", what should happen when they realise their mistake and want to change it?
That will depend on how long they take to realize it, won't it?  With a bit of luck something might be possible even after invoking Article 50 while the two year period is still running though it would probably be difficult - after all, the EU negotiators will have you by the balls in that situation.  After it has run out it will probably be very hard to get opt-outs and rebates if you should decide to join again.

But that doesn't answer the question of how the people can tell parliament that it changed its mind...  :-//

Just so. A general election is traditional, but it is completely unclear what parties will exist at that point.

The 27 have to crucify us, to make it plain to their disaffected electorate that, while "in" might bad, "out" is worse.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 13, 2016, 11:00:21 am
I've heard from recent news sources, that the meetings are occurring (or going to occur), anyway.
That is very plausible
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 13, 2016, 11:02:53 am
Probably best we ignore commissioners as far as is possible some of them are quite clearly insane

And exactly how is that different from politicians - and wannabe politicians?

But no, assume the 27 want to stay in - their politicans (not the Brussels bureaucrats) will crucify us to make it clear to their electorate where the electorate's interests lie.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 13, 2016, 11:04:24 am
"their intention is to secure a deal that allows all EU citizens living in the UK to stay (except those convicted of a crime during their stay) on the understanding that the EU provides the same for UK citizens already living in the EU. "

That's counterintuitive and against the spirit of brexit, driven mostly by immigration concerns.

I think a more likely case is for the UK to have country specific deals with individual countries, not with EU. This allows UK the ability to pick and choose who can stay and who must leave.

This will be good for Western Europeans and bad for Eastern Europeans and other migrants.

No. It would set a bad precedent. I can't see those who arrived legally and don't have criminal convictions (either here or abroad) being deported.

And many people voted leave due to the anti-democratic structure of the EU, not just because of the uncontrollable migration.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 13, 2016, 11:04:45 am
I think a more likely case is for the UK to have country specific deals with individual countries, not with EU. This allows UK the ability to pick and choose who can stay and who must leave.
More likely the UK will have to bend over on this one - unless it wants to (1) deport a lot of people who pay taxes in the UK and (2) have to deal with the return of a lot of UK pensioners who are not going to pay a penny in taxes.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 13, 2016, 11:08:21 am
I've heard from recent news sources, that the meetings are occurring (or going to occur), anyway.

Of course they will; it is inconceivable that they won't.

But all that matters is the results of the meetings.

We know some of the guns they can point at our heads, e.g. cutting off City of London access to Europe and letting Paris/Frankfurt become the financial centre, or starving our scientists of funding and access (already happening :( ).

What guns can we point at their heads? Fomenting internal strife so their electorates want grexit/iexit/sexit/etc?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 13, 2016, 11:11:12 am
Probably best we ignore commissioners as far as is possible some of them are quite clearly insane

And exactly how is that different from politicians - and wannabe politicians?

But no, assume the 27 want to stay in - their politicans (not the Brussels bureaucrats) will crucify us to make it clear to their electorate where the electorate's interests lie.

In doing so they would also crucify themselves.

I drive a Mercedes, I like it, but if Germany does as you suggest, next time I'll get a Jag or a Lexus.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 13, 2016, 11:13:22 am
"their intention is to secure a deal that allows all EU citizens living in the UK to stay (except those convicted of a crime during their stay) on the understanding that the EU provides the same for UK citizens already living in the EU. "

That's counterintuitive and against the spirit of brexit, driven mostly by immigration concerns.

I think a more likely case is for the UK to have country specific deals with individual countries, not with EU. This allows UK the ability to pick and choose who can stay and who must leave.

This will be good for Western Europeans and bad for Eastern Europeans and other migrants.

No. It would set a bad precedent. I can't see those who arrived legally and don't have criminal convictions (either here or abroad) being deported.

Judging by the timing of arguments and swing to leave, that's the will of the UK electorate, which is apparently sacrosanct.

Quote
And many people voted leave due to the anti-democratic structure of the EU, not just because of the uncontrollable migration.

Shrug. Individual motivations are irrelevant.

Basically the votes were a poke in the eye for Westminster and EU. It succeeded, with the side-effect that everybody gets skewered.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 13, 2016, 11:16:37 am
Probably best we ignore commissioners as far as is possible some of them are quite clearly insane

And exactly how is that different from politicians - and wannabe politicians?

But no, assume the 27 want to stay in - their politicans (not the Brussels bureaucrats) will crucify us to make it clear to their electorate where the electorate's interests lie.

In doing so they would also crucify themselves.

Nonsense.
In case you haven't been paying attention to the news since 1956, we are not the centre of the world.
In case you haven't been paying attention to the news for the past decade or two, power is shifting to the far east. That's where the profits are to be made.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 13, 2016, 11:24:19 am
I've heard from recent news sources, that the meetings are occurring (or going to occur), anyway.

Of course they will; it is inconceivable that they won't.

But all that matters is the results of the meetings.

We know some of the guns they can point at our heads, e.g. cutting off City of London access to Europe and letting Paris/Frankfurt become the financial centre, or starving our scientists of funding and access (already happening :( ).

What guns can we point at their heads? Fomenting internal strife so their electorates want grexit/iexit/sexit/etc?

They (the EU) ideally want a deal, which means that although "technically" we have left the EU. To all intenses and purposes, we are still fully paid up members.

I DON'T think we (the UK), really know for sure, all the various motivations, wants, reasons and desires, for the voting public to leave, anyway.

Some things are sort of known, such as excessive red tape, allowing potentially inappropriate countries to join, immigration and lack of direct/obvious voting systems to control the EU's politicians etc.

But even the above list is partly speculation, and 48% (i.e. the Remainers) of the people who voted, DON'T necessarily agree with even the above list (in theory).

So I expect the currently in power at the time, party(s) and Prime Minister and/or parliament etc, to essentially decide for us. Potentially misinterpreting what the voting public really want, in the process.

I see the new EU "deals", as being rather problematic, from a huge number of angles.

The voters want some things (which probably varies from person to person), our government want and will aim for something (potentially) completely different, and the EU will *ONLY* agree to something completely different again.

tl;dr
A big mess !

But hopefully it will all turn out ok on the night.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on July 13, 2016, 11:41:38 am
Saddam did everything he could to convince his enemies that he had WMDs.  He had to do that to keep Iran at bay (among others).  That is was all a bluff didn't come up until AFTER we invaded.
That isn't true. Even back then there was enough information to conclude the WMDs wheren't there. Start here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/06/chilcot-report-2003-iraq-war-was-unnecessary-and-invasion-was-no/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/06/chilcot-report-2003-iraq-war-was-unnecessary-and-invasion-was-no/)

I'd like to know how you define WMDs? All the chemical weapons aren't destructive enough for you?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 13, 2016, 11:45:02 am
"their intention is to secure a deal that allows all EU citizens living in the UK to stay (except those convicted of a crime during their stay) on the understanding that the EU provides the same for UK citizens already living in the EU. "

That's counterintuitive and against the spirit of brexit, driven mostly by immigration concerns.

I think a more likely case is for the UK to have country specific deals with individual countries, not with EU. This allows UK the ability to pick and choose who can stay and who must leave.

This will be good for Western Europeans and bad for Eastern Europeans and other migrants.

No. It would set a bad precedent. I can't see those who arrived legally and don't have criminal convictions (either here or abroad) being deported.

Judging by the timing of arguments and swing to leave, that's the will of the UK electorate, which is apparently sacrosanct.

Quote
And many people voted leave due to the anti-democratic structure of the EU, not just because of the uncontrollable migration.

Shrug. Individual motivations are irrelevant.

Basically the votes were a poke in the eye for Westminster and EU. It succeeded, with the side-effect that everybody gets skewered.

I notice you just ignore anything that doesn't fit the agenda you're determined to push.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 13, 2016, 11:49:47 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/revealed-how-the-west-set-saddam-on-the-bloody-road-to-power-1258618.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/revealed-how-the-west-set-saddam-on-the-bloody-road-to-power-1258618.html)


That was at the height of the cold war. What your article fails to mention is that the current leader was propped up by the Soviet Union.  Karim was also no angel and was also communist. Even then he was making expansionist claims for Kuwait and other ME pieces of dirt. He started out fine then things rapidly detiorated as they always do there.

So at the time I’m willing to bet even your country was supportive of the CIAs mission to depose a communist ruler in the region propped up by the Soviets.
Given who the PM in Apis's country was at the time (Olof Palme), this is doubtful in the extreme
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 13, 2016, 12:17:20 pm
I've heard from recent news sources, that the meetings are occurring (or going to occur), anyway.

Of course they will; it is inconceivable that they won't.

But all that matters is the results of the meetings.

We know some of the guns they can point at our heads, e.g. cutting off City of London access to Europe and letting Paris/Frankfurt become the financial centre, or starving our scientists of funding and access (already happening :( ).

What guns can we point at their heads? Fomenting internal strife so their electorates want grexit/iexit/sexit/etc?

They (the EU) ideally want a deal, which means that although "technically" we have left the EU. To all intenses and purposes, we are still fully paid up members.

I DON'T think we (the UK), really know for sure, all the various motivations, wants, reasons and desires, for the voting public to leave, anyway.

Some things are sort of known, such as excessive red tape, allowing potentially inappropriate countries to join, immigration and lack of direct/obvious voting systems to control the EU's politicians etc.

But even the above list is partly speculation, and 48% (i.e. the Remainers) of the people who voted, DON'T necessarily agree with even the above list (in theory).

So I expect the currently in power at the time, party(s) and Prime Minister and/or parliament etc, to essentially decide for us. Potentially misinterpreting what the voting public really want, in the process.

I see the new EU "deals", as being rather problematic, from a huge number of angles.

The voters want some things (which probably varies from person to person), our government want and will aim for something (potentially) completely different, and the EU will *ONLY* agree to something completely different again.

tl;dr
A big mess !

But hopefully it will all turn out ok on the night.

That's pretty sane.

I'm looking for reasons (i.e. cause and effect) to be optimistic. All the brexiteers have offered so far is (at best) pious hopes without rational justifications.

Over the decades when I've been pessimistic about something, my pessimism has turned out to be justified. I've learned to trust my pessimism.

(There was one notable/trivial exception - I was in Cornwall for the 1999 total eclipse and actually saw the corona and prominences, which I didn't believe would happen 10 minutes beforehand!.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 13, 2016, 12:26:35 pm
"their intention is to secure a deal that allows all EU citizens living in the UK to stay (except those convicted of a crime during their stay) on the understanding that the EU provides the same for UK citizens already living in the EU. "

That's counterintuitive and against the spirit of brexit, driven mostly by immigration concerns.

I think a more likely case is for the UK to have country specific deals with individual countries, not with EU. This allows UK the ability to pick and choose who can stay and who must leave.

This will be good for Western Europeans and bad for Eastern Europeans and other migrants.

No. It would set a bad precedent. I can't see those who arrived legally and don't have criminal convictions (either here or abroad) being deported.

Judging by the timing of arguments and swing to leave, that's the will of the UK electorate, which is apparently sacrosanct.

Quote
And many people voted leave due to the anti-democratic structure of the EU, not just because of the uncontrollable migration.

Shrug. Individual motivations are irrelevant.

Basically the votes were a poke in the eye for Westminster and EU. It succeeded, with the side-effect that everybody gets skewered.

I notice you just ignore anything that doesn't fit the agenda you're determined to push.

And just what agenda is that? (Hint: there isn't one).

Please supply cause-and-effect reasons (i.e. not pious hopes) to be optimistic.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/07/12/we-mustnt-rain-on-the-leavers-parade-but-its-a-disquieting-outlo/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/07/12/we-mustnt-rain-on-the-leavers-parade-but-its-a-disquieting-outlo/)
http://uk.businessinsider.com/credit-suisse-post-brexit-recession-risk-analysis-and-equity-strategy-2016-7 (http://uk.businessinsider.com/credit-suisse-post-brexit-recession-risk-analysis-and-equity-strategy-2016-7)
and many others, unfortunately.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 13, 2016, 12:39:01 pm
That's pretty sane.

I'm looking for reasons (i.e. cause and effect) to be optimistic. All the brexiteers have offered so far is (at best) pious hopes without rational justifications.

Over the decades when I've been pessimistic about something, my pessimism has turned out to be justified. I've learned to trust my pessimism.

(There was one notable/trivial exception - I was in Cornwall for the 1999 total eclipse and actually saw the corona and prominences, which I didn't believe would happen 10 minutes beforehand!.

I think whatever ends up happening, it will be for the best.

It is kind of exciting in some respects. Because I'm use to learning/reading about history, and now suddenly I am in the middle of something, which might be very big and major.

If there wasn't big changes like this (Brexit), we would be still living under the Romans, or still living in caves.

If other countries also leave, things could get very interesting, and we may see a new and improved EU come out of it.

But I'm confused and a bit worried to hear that recently, countries like Germany, have got significantly more support for the EU, than before Brexit. But I guess time will tell, things could easily change in the coming months and years.

I think other EU countries are also disappointed in the EU, for various reasons.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on July 13, 2016, 01:07:38 pm
"I'd like to know how you define WMDs"

Birth: people couldn't have died if they were never born.

Birth is the number one cause of death.

Here you have it.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 13, 2016, 01:21:12 pm
That's pretty sane.

I'm looking for reasons (i.e. cause and effect) to be optimistic. All the brexiteers have offered so far is (at best) pious hopes without rational justifications.

Over the decades when I've been pessimistic about something, my pessimism has turned out to be justified. I've learned to trust my pessimism.

(There was one notable/trivial exception - I was in Cornwall for the 1999 total eclipse and actually saw the corona and prominences, which I didn't believe would happen 10 minutes beforehand!.

I think whatever ends up happening, it will be for the best.

It is kind of exciting in some respects. Because I'm use to learning/reading about history, and now suddenly I am in the middle of something, which might be very big and major.

If there wasn't big changes like this (Brexit), we would be still living under the Romans, or still living in caves.

If other countries also leave, things could get very interesting, and we may see a new and improved EU come out of it.

But I'm confused and a bit worried to hear that recently, countries like Germany, have got significantly more support for the EU, than before Brexit. But I guess time will tell, things could easily change in the coming months and years.

I think other EU countries are also disappointed in the EU, for various reasons.

Other countries and people, myself included, are disappointed in the EU. OTOH before the referendum I predicted that it would be made clear that our leaving would (be made to) encourage others to remain.

Will the EU break up? Quite possibly, but I doubt it. I don't think the money markets have enough power to do that. OTOH, they do have the power to indirectly encourage the far left and far right to assert themselves.

I'll note that today the money markets decided to give the German government lots of money at negative interest rates, i.e. the investors expect to lose money. I wonder if they will be so generous when the UK next issues bonds.

Whether it will all turn out for the best is, of course, undecidable - even in hindsight!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 13, 2016, 01:25:39 pm
If other countries also leave, things could get very interesting, and we may see a new and improved EU come out of it.
Why do you seem to doubt other countries will leave? What is going to stop them? If you are interested in history then look into the break up of the USSR. Once the first country declared it's independence others followed in fairly quick succession.

Why would there be a new and improved EU? Surely that would require fixing the flaws in the present one. If that hasn't been done already then you shouldn't expect it to be done any time soon. It is in the too-hard basket.

There is no need to over think the fate of the EU. You can reliably expect people to do what they have done in the past.

It is possible other countries will leave. If it is made clear that leaving is worse than remaining, then other countries will stay. And it is in the power of the 27 to ensure that happens.

Sometimes a major shock is necessary to bring people/countries to their senses and either be grateful for what they've got or mend their ways.

The USSR is a poor example since the other countries were conquered rather joined willingly.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 13, 2016, 01:50:48 pm
If other countries also leave, things could get very interesting, and we may see a new and improved EU come out of it.
Why do you seem to doubt other countries will leave? What is going to stop them? If you are interested in history then look into the break up of the USSR. Once the first country declared it's independence others followed in fairly quick succession.

Why would there be a new and improved EU? Surely that would require fixing the flaws in the present one. If that hasn't been done already then you shouldn't expect it to be done any time soon. It is in the too-hard basket.

There is no need to over think the fate of the EU. You can reliably expect people to do what they have done in the past.

I agree, what you are saying makes a lot of sense.

Sadly it is probably UNREALISTIC to expect the EU to significantly change.

Also I feel like we have (regardless of which way we voted) stepped forward, on our OWN (for now). Partially in the hope that others will follow in our footsteps, then we don't need to worry anymore about all the red tape and trade agreements and open/free people movements etc. As the organisation will be finished with.
So yes, I agree, other countries may well leave. Things (politically) are tending to move to the "right" in the EU, in general, which probably favors leaving the rigid EU.

On the other hand, the USSR exit countries, have not necessarily done brilliantly. Depending on your viewpoint.

Yes they are relatively free, democratic and potentially capitalistic. But it is taking a very long time, for them to grow back into, "normal" countries.

E.g. The standard of life in Ukraine is not really as good as it would be in a middle of the road, EU country. From what I have heard. But if the population are happy, and enjoying things, with local produce available at affordable prices, then things are not that bad (depending on ones definition of "good").
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 13, 2016, 02:06:35 pm
Other countries and people, myself included, are disappointed in the EU. OTOH before the referendum I predicted that it would be made clear that our leaving would (be made to) encourage others to remain.

Will the EU break up? Quite possibly, but I doubt it. I don't think the money markets have enough power to do that. OTOH, they do have the power to indirectly encourage the far left and far right to assert themselves.

I'll note that today the money markets decided to give the German government lots of money at negative interest rates, i.e. the investors expect to lose money. I wonder if they will be so generous when the UK next issues bonds.

Whether it will all turn out for the best is, of course, undecidable - even in hindsight!

Really there is no such thing as the "BEST" transistor, so I was being a bit silly with my terminology.
Best to someone might mean a very cheap transistor, but poor quality.
Best to someone else, might mean a very expensive, but really powerful and high quality transistor.

It use to be that the "EU", was a bunch of different countries.

Increasingly, these days, the "EU" is sort of "Germany" and hence Angela Merkel, as regards controlling influences. I could easily be wrong about this, but it is just the impression that I get, these days.

There could also be dangers, if the EU massively splits up, and yet some countries remain in it.

This is sort of analogous to the USSR. Which supposedly disappeared a few decades ago, yet Putin seems to sometimes act as if it still exists, and that he wants to rebuild it. His attempts at times, are getting dangerously close to starting world war 3, or at least a major conflict between Russia and the USA, and maybe other players.
If Nuclear weapon use can be withheld during such a conflict, it should NOT be too bad, especially if it is over in a few weeks (which is probably a completely unrealistically short time period).
But then there is the question on what China would do, if Russia and the USA started fighting each other ?

I guess a remaining, but much smaller EU, which many EU countries have exited, would be more of a pain in the neck, rather than a military danger, like the cold war was, at times.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 13, 2016, 02:19:38 pm
I think other EU countries are also disappointed in the EU, for various reasons.
People: definitely. Parliaments/governments: probably not so much.

My country also has a number of opt-outs, rather like the UK but not quite the same. The electorate has rejected opting out of some some of our opt-outs in a couple of referendums (the last time was in December). Yet, there is nothing that indicates that a majority could be found in the electorate for leaving. In the parliament it for sure isn't possible at the moment. A big difference to the UK is the press. The UK press seems to have been purveyors of a quite lopsided view of the EU for many many years. Something that can't have made it more difficult for the powers that be to blame all sorts of things on Brussels. If anything, it's more the other way around here.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 13, 2016, 02:36:31 pm
The USSR is a poor example since the other countries were conquered rather joined willingly.
That's true. I can't think of another comparatively recent example. There are unlikely to be any Tanks in the streets during the breakup of the EU. It is only tangentially related to my main point that once a certain level of momentum is built up the subsequent events follow naturally. The fear of the unknown is diminished.

We don't know whether the system is underdamped or overdamped :) "One swallow doesn't make it summer".

Fear of the unknown could be replaced by fear of the known, and powerful forces will be moving in that direction. Of course there are other powerful forces, and we don't yet know which powerful is more powerful.

Fundamentally only a fool or someone with nothing to lose takes such a critical gamble. Many of those voting felt they had nothing to lose; they will learn they were wrong, and I fear which false messiahs will catch their attention next time.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 13, 2016, 03:08:32 pm
On the other hand, the USSR exit countries, have not necessarily done brilliantly. Depending on your viewpoint.

Yes they are relatively free, democratic and potentially capitalistic. But it is taking a very long time, for them to grow back into, "normal" countries.

E.g. The standard of life in Ukraine is not really as good as it would be in a middle of the road, EU country. From what I have heard. But if the population are happy, and enjoying things, with local produce available at affordable prices, then things are not that bad (depending on ones definition of "good").

My father, who was Latvian, only cared about getting the Russians out.

The economics of the EU, or the Eurozone in particular, are an unmitigated disaster. Brexit or no Brexit the there was always going to be a day of reckoning. You cannot have that much incestuous debt and expect anything else. Countries with completely different economies were politically shoehorned together unwisely. I can only imagine a generation of young people without a job or real hope of gaining steady employment will eventually have their voice heard.

I think some people who wanted to leave the EU, felt the same way as getting the Russians out. Although I fully accept that the "Russians" situation, was especially bad, and a completely different kettle of fish.
E.g. Not being able to easily leave the country, KGB, terrible hardships, etc etc.

I'm looking forward to the day when North Korea collapses (assuming/hoping that it does NOT involve war, that is). So that the people of North Korea can begin to get a nice/normal life. Some reports seem to imply that it is like living in a second world war concentration camp, or at least VERY dire.

The leaders of the EU, seem to think they are doing a WONDERFUL job, and they can easily take on adding more countries. However incompatible and penniless, they are. they DON'T need to ask us, the residents/voters/bill-payers, they can decide for us. What could possibly go wrong ?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on July 13, 2016, 03:19:31 pm
I think some people who wanted to leave the EU, felt the same way as getting the Russians out. Although I fully accept that the "Russians" situation, was especially bad, and a completely different kettle of fish.
E.g. Not being able to easily leave the country, KGB, terrible hardships, etc etc.

Not completely different, refugee quotas and russification are pretty close.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 13, 2016, 03:25:55 pm
I think other EU countries are also disappointed in the EU, for various reasons.
People: definitely. Parliaments/governments: probably not so much.

My country also has a number of opt-outs, rather like the UK but not quite the same. The electorate has rejected opting out of some some of our opt-outs in a couple of referendums (the last time was in December). Yet, there is nothing that indicates that a majority could be found in the electorate for leaving. In the parliament it for sure isn't possible at the moment. A big difference to the UK is the press. The UK press seems to have been purveyors of a quite lopsided view of the EU for many many years. Something that can't have made it more difficult for the powers that be to blame all sorts of things on Brussels. If anything, it's more the other way around here.

I'm very annoyed that some European countries are rumored to be hiding the TRUTH, via control of the press (newspapers), TV and maybe other sources of "news" information.
E.g. Sweden. (I'm looking at you). Probably/maybe Germany as well, and others I guess.
It is rumored in some youtube video(s), that a particular city there, has been very badly ruined by immigration, turned into a terrible crime ridden ghetto, and there are terrible sex related crimes there.

It is CRAZY that in this day and age, modern western EU countries such as Sweden, are blocking information like that, which is much more like the former USSR, China, and even North Korea.

Given that we in the EU (West) are suppose to have free/open voting. Messing about with the "REAL" information/news like that, by hiding it, etc. Is potentially causing them to vote in a different way, to the way they would vote, if they had the correct information.

Anyway I hope that your own country exiting or not the EU, turns out for the best, for everyone.

I suspect (as others have said in this thread), we (UK) are probably starting a trend (domino effect), which may see the break up of the EU.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on July 13, 2016, 03:38:26 pm
The criminal statistics not distinguishing between (multiple generational) migrants and their origin is one thing.

What annoys me is the simple avoidance of simple math of the speed of Islamification and its desirability. There can be no alternative to the nationalization of Islamic refugees and Islamic foreign brides and grooms, so we simply aren't allowed to examine the consequences. If people decide halfway they really really want an alternative any way, the supposedly non existent alternatives will appear ... and be very inhumane.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 13, 2016, 03:41:29 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/revealed-how-the-west-set-saddam-on-the-bloody-road-to-power-1258618.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/revealed-how-the-west-set-saddam-on-the-bloody-road-to-power-1258618.html)


That was at the height of the cold war. What your article fails to mention is that the current leader was propped up by the Soviet Union.  Karim was also no angel and was also communist. Even then he was making expansionist claims for Kuwait and other ME pieces of dirt. He started out fine then things rapidly detiorated as they always do there.

So at the time I’m willing to bet even your country was supportive of the CIAs mission to depose a communist ruler in the region propped up by the Soviets.
Given who the PM in Apis's country was at the time (Olof Palme), this is doubtful in the extreme
I believe Tage Erlander was PM at the time actually. Jens Otto Krag was PM in Denmark.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 13, 2016, 03:43:03 pm
I think other EU countries are also disappointed in the EU, for various reasons.
People: definitely. Parliaments/governments: probably not so much.

My country also has a number of opt-outs, rather like the UK but not quite the same. The electorate has rejected opting out of some some of our opt-outs in a couple of referendums (the last time was in December). Yet, there is nothing that indicates that a majority could be found in the electorate for leaving. In the parliament it for sure isn't possible at the moment. A big difference to the UK is the press. The UK press seems to have been purveyors of a quite lopsided view of the EU for many many years. Something that can't have made it more difficult for the powers that be to blame all sorts of things on Brussels. If anything, it's more the other way around here.

I'm very annoyed that some European countries are rumored to be hiding the TRUTH, via control of the press (newspapers), TV and maybe other sources of "news" information.
E.g. Sweden. (I'm looking at you). Probably/maybe Germany as well, and others I guess.
It is rumored in some youtube video(s), that a particular city there, has been very badly ruined by immigration, turned into a terrible crime ridden ghetto, and there are terrible sex related crimes there.

It is CRAZY that in this day and age, modern western EU countries such as Sweden, are blocking information like that, which is much more like the former USSR, China, and even North Korea.

Given that we in the EU (West) are suppose to have free/open voting. Messing about with the "REAL" information/news like that, by hiding it, etc. Is potentially causing them to vote in a different way, to the way they would vote, if they had the correct information.

Anyway I hope that your own country exiting or not the EU, turns out for the best, for everyone.

I suspect (as others have said in this thread), we (UK) are probably starting a trend (domino effect), which may see the break up of the EU.

Can I suggest that when you SHOUT it is more effective if you use GREEN INK.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 13, 2016, 04:06:59 pm
Given who the PM in Apis's country was at the time (Olof Palme), this is doubtful in the extreme
I believe Tage Erlander was PM at the time actually. Jens Otto Krag was PM in Denmark.
You are (partly) right, of course. At the time of the 17 July Revolution in Iraq (1968), Tage Erlanger was indeed the PM. Palme had to wait till 1969. Partly, because the Danish PM at the time was Hilmar Baunsgaard  ;)

Saddam became president in July 1979. By that time it was Ola Ullsten and Anker Jørgensen. Either way, I was wrong.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on July 13, 2016, 04:07:17 pm
I think other EU countries are also disappointed in the EU, for various reasons.
People: definitely. Parliaments/governments: probably not so much.

My country also has a number of opt-outs, rather like the UK but not quite the same. The electorate has rejected opting out of some some of our opt-outs in a couple of referendums (the last time was in December). Yet, there is nothing that indicates that a majority could be found in the electorate for leaving. In the parliament it for sure isn't possible at the moment. A big difference to the UK is the press. The UK press seems to have been purveyors of a quite lopsided view of the EU for many many years. Something that can't have made it more difficult for the powers that be to blame all sorts of things on Brussels. If anything, it's more the other way around here.

I'm very annoyed that some European countries are rumored to be hiding the TRUTH, via control of the press (newspapers), TV and maybe other sources of "news" information.
E.g. Sweden. (I'm looking at you). Probably/maybe Germany as well, and others I guess.
It is rumored in some youtube video(s), that a particular city there, has been very badly ruined by immigration, turned into a terrible crime ridden ghetto, and there are terrible sex related crimes there.

It is CRAZY that in this day and age, modern western EU countries such as Sweden, are blocking information like that, which is much more like the former USSR, China, and even North Korea.

Given that we in the EU (West) are suppose to have free/open voting. Messing about with the "REAL" information/news like that, by hiding it, etc. Is potentially causing them to vote in a different way, to the way they would vote, if they had the correct information.

Anyway I hope that your own country exiting or not the EU, turns out for the best, for everyone.

I suspect (as others have said in this thread), we (UK) are probably starting a trend (domino effect), which may see the break up of the EU.

Can I suggest that when you SHOUT it is more effective if you use GREEN INK.

And that the press is FREE over here.   (used maroon in stead of green, sorry:) )
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 13, 2016, 04:11:44 pm
Can I suggest that when you SHOUT it is more effective if you use GREEN INK.

I'm not sure if you are joking, being serious, or worryingly intelligent and referring to some EU (or UK) rules, which have changed the text shouting format, to avoid offending some members of society and/or a "nanny" state.

E.g.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2263874/Teachers-shouldnt-use-red-coloured-pens-mark-homework-like-shouting-upsets-pupils.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2263874/Teachers-shouldnt-use-red-coloured-pens-mark-homework-like-shouting-upsets-pupils.html)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 13, 2016, 04:12:50 pm


I'm very annoyed that some European countries are rumored to be hiding the TRUTH, via control of the press (newspapers), TV and maybe other sources of "news" information.

It's similar here. Our president for example keeps denying the link between Islam and the current wave of global terrorism, and when the French president once mentioned Islamic terrorists, it was censored on the White House's web site.


 
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 13, 2016, 04:18:15 pm
It's similar here. Our president for example keeps denying the link between Islam and the current wave of global terrorism, and when the French president once mentioned Islamic terrorists, it was censored on the White House's web site.
That's why people like Bernstein and Woodward are important.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 13, 2016, 04:29:14 pm
I think other EU countries are also disappointed in the EU, for various reasons.
People: definitely. Parliaments/governments: probably not so much.

My country also has a number of opt-outs, rather like the UK but not quite the same. The electorate has rejected opting out of some some of our opt-outs in a couple of referendums (the last time was in December). Yet, there is nothing that indicates that a majority could be found in the electorate for leaving. In the parliament it for sure isn't possible at the moment. A big difference to the UK is the press. The UK press seems to have been purveyors of a quite lopsided view of the EU for many many years. Something that can't have made it more difficult for the powers that be to blame all sorts of things on Brussels. If anything, it's more the other way around here.

I'm very annoyed that some European countries are rumored to be hiding the TRUTH, via control of the press (newspapers), TV and maybe other sources of "news" information.
E.g. Sweden. (I'm looking at you). Probably/maybe Germany as well, and others I guess.
It is rumored in some youtube video(s), that a particular city there, has been very badly ruined by immigration, turned into a terrible crime ridden ghetto, and there are terrible sex related crimes there.

It is CRAZY that in this day and age, modern western EU countries such as Sweden, are blocking information like that, which is much more like the former USSR, China, and even North Korea.

Given that we in the EU (West) are suppose to have free/open voting. Messing about with the "REAL" information/news like that, by hiding it, etc. Is potentially causing them to vote in a different way, to the way they would vote, if they had the correct information.

Anyway I hope that your own country exiting or not the EU, turns out for the best, for everyone.

I suspect (as others have said in this thread), we (UK) are probably starting a trend (domino effect), which may see the break up of the EU.
"rumored in some you-tube video(s)"
:palm: seriously, if that is the measure of "truth" these days we are all in deeper trouble than I would have imagined.:scared:

"a particular city there, has been very badly ruined by immigration, turned into a terrible crime ridden ghetto, and there are terrible sex related crimes there."
I happen to live near that city (Malmö) and know people who live there and the above description is not true at all. There are many refugees that have settled there, from former Yugoslavia and now the middle east. Sweden have had the same problem internally as EU has: the refugees choose freely where they want to live when they come here. All the refugees prefer to live as far south as possible so most of them have ended up in the most southern big city. The rich parts of the country do whatever they can to prevent refugees to come to their municipalities. But crime rates are not higher in Malmö than other cities, sex related or otherwise. It's only xenophobes and racists that would say the city is ruined because they want a racially/ethnically pure country.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on July 13, 2016, 04:57:52 pm
Google for Husby, Tensta and Rinkeby. Warning this might be bad for your blood pressure (https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=sv&u=http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/longread/utanforskapet-inifran/radslan-bakom-visiret/&prev=search).
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on July 13, 2016, 05:24:59 pm
It peters up as their percentage increases.

Multiculturalism works in small doses, when minorities are weak they accept the cost of non-assimilation as something they should bear themselves. When they get strong they demand the costs get socialized. The increasingly high demands on accommodation for Salat being a good example.

PS. to be honest the increasing rationalization of labor and the squeezing of margins hasn't helped, but their flexibility is decreasing right along with the flexibility of employers ... a bad combination. Why hire a Muslim when you could just hire an Eastern European instead without all the protected class and religious demand headaches?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on July 13, 2016, 06:07:21 pm
Google for Husby, Tensta and Rinkeby. Warning this might be bad for your blood pressure (https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=sv&u=http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/longread/utanforskapet-inifran/radslan-bakom-visiret/&prev=search).
.

Here , we name it " the town or neighborhood  without law"(majority are gipsies) where the police when they go to arrest a criminal ,they have to enter the zone with more 400 men.
When  the social service as the ambulances and the firefigthers have to escort by the police if not are assaulted.

http://goo.gl/U8AG2f (http://goo.gl/U8AG2f)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 13, 2016, 06:23:24 pm


I'm very annoyed that some European countries are rumored to be hiding the TRUTH, via control of the press (newspapers), TV and maybe other sources of "news" information.

It's similar here. Our president for example keeps denying the link between Islam and the current wave of global terrorism, and when the French president once mentioned Islamic terrorists, it was censored on the White House's web site.

(Partially speaking about politics and how it can go wrong in general).

What seems to happen, is that there is a genuine problem. E.g. That during "real" wars, information which leaks out, can literally cause large numbers of (usually) soldiers, to be needlessly killed.

Let's say that on the 20th (during a real war), we are sending 1,000 soldiers to city xyz, and launching a surprise attack. Maybe if we keep it secret, the mission will succeed and *ONLY* 100 soldiers will get killed.

But if the information leaks out, and the soldiers tell their wives that they are going to city xyz on the 20th, and it gets to the press etc.

3,000 enemy soldiers, and 10 powerful machine gun pillar boxes, and twenty tanks, can be waiting for them.

Then 900 of our soldiers are killed, and the mission is a disaster.

So it is reasonable to have things written into the law books, to allow governments to suppress information (and even lie I suppose), during real wars and when necessary.

What seems to happen these days (don't take what I say too literally), is that the governments argue that because "our" soldiers are fighting ISIS, we are effectively at war. Therefore governments can legitimately change/suppress the news, at will. Even when no soldiers lives are actually at risk to any serious extent. But the real purpose is to suppress how badly governments may be handling the migrant crisis etc.

So 1,000 immigrants attack a huge number of girls/women at a train station in Germany (I'm not clear on exactly what happened, because different sources say different things. But something funny was going on), get badly (sexually) attacked, and the people need to know.

Speculation: The fact that I can't clarify exactly what happened, *maybe* because government(s) have created false/misleading internet information sources, so that someone like me, can't tell which are telling the truth, and which are propaganda and/or over-reacting people, who are writing crazy nonsense.

It is a sort of "feature creep" and scope creep, which was never intended to take place, when the original rules/laws were designed.
Even the BBC, seems to be at least slightly affected by this phenomenon.

What has happened to "freedom of speech" in the west ?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on July 13, 2016, 06:35:54 pm
"What has happened to "freedom of speech" in the west ?"

Alive and well, as long as your speech is approved by those in charge of freedom of speech.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 13, 2016, 07:00:03 pm
I happen to live near that city (Malmö) and know people who live there and the above description is not true at all. There are many refugees that have settled there, from former Yugoslavia and now the middle east. Sweden have had the same problem internally as EU has: the refugees choose freely where they want to live when they come here. All the refugees prefer to live as far south as possible so most of them have ended up in the most southern big city. The rich parts of the country do whatever they can to prevent refugees to come to their municipalities. But crime rates are not higher in Malmö than other cities, sex related or otherwise. It's only xenophobes and racists that would say the city is ruined because they want a racially/ethnically pure country.

Because of rumors (I have to hold my hand up, and admit, I'm also spreading them, see my last post for proof!) that the true news does not always reach the newspapers and other sources, because of government(s) intervention. That kind of forces one, to use/watch Youtube videos and other websites for independent, free and hopefully truthful information.

I hope we can use our common sense, to sort out videos etc, which are truth based and ones which are wrong/propaganda and/or written by unreliable/crazy/obsessed people/organisations.

The problem with me reliably knowing about Malmö, is that I don't want to travel there, just to find out the reality with my own eyes, as to what it is like there. The easy way, which is using the internet, is that I can get a number of conflicting opinions on what it is like there.

One says it is a nightmare, another says it is ok, but not wonderful, and another says it is just great, why not move there ?

So it can be difficult to reliably tell the truth from inaccurate/exaggerated or even plain wrong information sources.

Fortunately I am quite lucky living in the UK. Because the BBC TV channels and website, are a rather reliable (except occasionally/rarely possibly getting government influence, according to some people) way of getting my news/information, with a large degree of political independence (hopefully!).

Depending on who you believe, some sources think even the BBC has been somewhat badly affected by government influences and/or attempts to keep the peace as regards race relations and immigration issues etc.

Another (I think very serious) hindrance to "Freedom of speech in the West", is these modern laws, which make it illegal to incite racial tensions/hatred. The problem with that, is that some people may want to create a website, explaining what they think about the current political situation. Which could be accused of being illegal and/or not politically correct (PC).

On the other hand. I have to admit that the recent two killings of people in the US by police. Rapidly followed by viral Youtube (and other sources) videos of the shootings.
Probably caused or pushed the individual too far, to "murder" five policemen, and injure many more. Essentially just because of the initial unsurpressed Youtube videos. Also the videos have caused much unrest in the country as well.

So I can understand that in modern times, suppressing the initial viral videos and/or other internet information, may have saved many innocent lives, in the US recently. So it is a complicated subject area.

Also some of these youtube videos (especially the second policeman's killing ones), seem to be filled with huge misinformation and hatred of the police and even stuff to potentially cause racial disagreements etc.

tl;dr
That over-reacting (possibly lying) individual (the girlfriend of the second person killed by police), possibly with huge grudges against the police. May have contributed to a mass terrorism, mass-shooting event, and many other recent troubles in the US.

Don't worry about if she is lying or not. The point I'm trying to make is that even genuinely troubled/crazy/mad/bad individuals, can make a potentially viral Youtube video, and post all sorts of nonsense on there. If this is actually causing people to be murdered as a result, that is totally unacceptable.

So maybe it is a tricky double edged sword like, situation, which is difficult to resolve.

If we (the West) are not careful, stuff like this, could eventually trigger mass rioting or even civil wars, between factions. But I could be exaggerating or plain wrong.
So I'd better add the riot shield plate, to my tin foil hat, and carry on whistling to myself.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 13, 2016, 07:02:47 pm
"What has happened to "freedom of speech" in the west ?"

Alive and well, as long as your speech is approved by those in charge of freedom of speech.

That's a good one!

Give a man a fish, and he is fed for a day. But teach him how to fish, and he will never be hungry for the rest of his life.
But if you are lazy.
Light a fire for a man, and he is warm for a day. But set him on fire, and he will be very warm, for the rest of his life.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 13, 2016, 07:14:13 pm
You couldn't make it up.

When our new foreign secretary sits down to negotiate with the rest of the world, everybody else in the room is going to be thinking of the image that sums up modern UK...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: kaz911 on July 13, 2016, 07:34:40 pm
"What has happened to "freedom of speech" in the west ?"

Alive and well, as long as your speech is approved by those in charge of freedom of speech.

That's a good one!

Give a man a fish, and he is fed for a day. But teach him how to fish, and he will never be hungry for the rest of his life.
Nahh - not in the EU - they will take his fishing quota and split it between countries with no access to the sea.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 13, 2016, 08:14:44 pm
Give a man a fish, and he is fed for a day. But teach him how to fish, and he will never be hungry for the rest of his life.

Nahh - not in the EU - they will take his fishing quota and split it between countries with no access to the sea.

Unfortunately there is probably a lot of truth in your post, in principal.

Before Brexit, a protester, wanted to set fire to the EU flag, in a video.
But of course he forgot that EU regulations, control the flammability of materials, so feel free to watch the (funny) video, as he tries to burn it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQRg7wH_FC0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQRg7wH_FC0)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: grumpydoc on July 13, 2016, 09:29:10 pm
You couldn't make it up.

When our new foreign secretary sits down to negotiate with the rest of the world, everybody else in the room is going to be thinking of the image that sums up modern UK...
Yes, that's a very interesting choice. I wouldn't automatically assume Boris will cock it up, but he has a pretty worrying record of opening his mouth and inserting not just his foot but his whole leg.

That said she needs to give decent jobs to the prominent Brexiters, Gove is too unpopular for a really big post and Boris is less of a buffoon than he makes out. You couldn't give him Chancellor though, nor, I think, Home Sec but Foreign Sec could work.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on July 13, 2016, 09:35:16 pm
May is absolutely brilliant in giving that job to bj - I actually joked with friends that if I were to out together a cabinet, bj would be getting that job, for two reasons:

1. Bj is the face of brexit and there is no better and more deserving person to handle that hot potato.
2. Bj is going to screw it up and it would absolve Mays responsibility and potentially offer an option that's not otherwise available.

It is down right stupid for bj to take that job. You can write him off politically.

May is not your typical politician. She has the potential to be the next iron lady.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 13, 2016, 10:21:02 pm
May is absolutely brilliant in giving that job to bj - I actually joked with friends that if I were to out together a cabinet, bj would be getting that job, for two reasons:

1. Bj is the face of brexit and there is no better and more deserving person to handle that hot potato.
2. Bj is going to screw it up and it would absolve Mays responsibility and potentially offer an option that's not otherwise available.

It is down right stupid for bj to take that job. You can write him off politically.

May is not your typical politician. She has the potential to be the next iron lady.

Are you confusing the positions of foreign secretary (Alexander B de Peffel Johnson) and secretary of state for brexit (David Davies)?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on July 14, 2016, 08:28:33 am
"What has happened to "freedom of speech" in the west ?"

Alive and well, as long as your speech is approved by those in charge of freedom of speech.

That's a good one!

Give a man a fish, and he is fed for a day. But teach him how to fish, and he will never be hungry for the rest of his life.
But if you are lazy.
Light a fire for a man, and he is warm for a day. But set him on fire, and he will be very warm, for the rest of his life.

Brilliant !!   :-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 14, 2016, 09:21:40 am
"What has happened to "freedom of speech" in the west ?"

Alive and well, as long as your speech is approved by those in charge of freedom of speech.

That's a good one!

Give a man a fish, and he is fed for a day. But teach him how to fish, and he will never be hungry for the rest of his life.
But if you are lazy.
Light a fire for a man, and he is warm for a day. But set him on fire, and he will be very warm, for the rest of his life.

Brilliant !!   :-DD

I'm glad you liked it  :)

But I feel a bit guilty. I think its origins are from Terry Pratchett.
http://www.bbcamerica.com/anglophenia/2015/03/30-terry-pratchett-quotes-to-guide-you-through-life (http://www.bbcamerica.com/anglophenia/2015/03/30-terry-pratchett-quotes-to-guide-you-through-life)

I really like this one as well:

Quote
• Light thinks it travels faster than anything, but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.


The latest news seems to confirm the theories/concept about a second referendum, I mentioned above.

So during a separate vote and/or general election, something like the following might end up happening:

Quote
Labour leadership contender Owen Smith wants a second public vote to approve any Brexit deal the UK strikes with the EU, according to a newspaper.

Source:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36792176 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36792176)

So we may see an extra referendum and/or voting concepts, to modify the direction of Brexit. But it is early days yet.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on July 14, 2016, 09:43:12 am
I'm hoping (and believing) stability returns now that a new team is in place.

I don't think there will be a new referendum.
The only *odd* scenario I can think of is this:
"The gouvernement falls, a new general election is held, and a party that has Stay as agenda point wins."

Otherwise, the new leadership will execute the Exit agenda, as they indicate.
And my bet is that we'll end up with a result that's honourable for all parties. In the end we all want what's best. Because when UK has a good deal, that's beneficial for EU, and vice-versa.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 14, 2016, 10:18:20 am
Judging by the reaction from around the world reported in http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-36790977 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-36790977) [1], it is clear that May is successfully projecting a 21st century image of the UK around the world.

[1]"Apparently stifling a laugh on hearing the news of Mr Johnson's new job, [USA] state department spokesman Mark Toner says ...",
"The German journalist Laura Schneider points to a certain amount of mirth on television as presenters announce Mr Johnson's new role."
"The former prime minister of Sweden, Carl Bildt, tweets that he wishes the appointment were a joke."
etc
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on July 14, 2016, 11:25:39 am
Quote
Tons of clips. CBS good enough for you.

The intelligence (or lack of) of that reporter in the first video is sad, to say the least. Her inability to come back with a better argument, other than "that's absurd", is pathetic.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on July 14, 2016, 12:11:05 pm
Judging by the reaction from around the world reported in http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-36790977 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-36790977) [1], it is clear that May is successfully projecting a 21st century image of the UK around the world.

[1]"Apparently stifling a laugh on hearing the news of Mr Johnson's new job, [USA] state department spokesman Mark Toner says ...",
"The German journalist Laura Schneider points to a certain amount of mirth on television as presenters announce Mr Johnson's new role."
"The former prime minister of Sweden, Carl Bildt, tweets that he wishes the appointment were a joke."
etc

Boris is no fool.
He's a very smart operator
The fact that he has been appointed shows the support he has from Tory MP's
Perhaps those who ranted about Boris post brexit can understand why he reacted as he did when Gove stabbed him in the back.
Gove was always the sacrificial goat.
Who gives a shit about the media.
I think May has made some good choices that strike a balance between the unity of her MP's and the task of managing our future outside the EU. 





Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kjelt on July 14, 2016, 12:38:34 pm
The one (with real power): "So who's going to run for PM and lead the next cabinet? We all know it is going to fail after the brexit deals have gone bad"
BJ:" I don't want to fail my first time so I take the next cabinet, thank you"
Farage:"I want my life back, back to the time I was earning big amounts of money"
The one: "ok then let's get a woman to do it this time,  let her fail"
others: "brilliant!"
BJ:" Can I have some paid job so I am still in the news now and then and can run for PM next time so it won't be conspicious?"
The one: yeah yeah but first let's find the fall-girl .......
 :popcorn:

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kalvin on July 14, 2016, 01:06:44 pm
She is not stupid. The people of the UK has spoken, and she will just execute their will. Not a big deal. She cannot be blamed if the Brexit turns out to be a catastrophe as the people of the UK has specifically asked for it. If there is a need for the Parliament to approve the Article 50 and the Parliament doesn't approve it, she will be off the hook and she can blame it for the Parliament. If the Parliament approves the Article 50, she will just trigger Article 50 and the negotiations will start and the voters will just love it. It will take at least two years before the negotiations are completed, maybe three to five years in practice, so there will be new elections for the Parliament before the the process is completed. She will not get the blame if the Brexit is a disaster - the next PM will get a hot potato in his/her hands, though. If the Brexit turns out to be a success for UK, she will get the glory. For her, the situation is neutral-win - situation.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on July 14, 2016, 01:09:23 pm
Quote
It will take at least two years before the negotiations are completed,

I think it is UPTO two years, unless both sides extend.

So that "two year period"  could be as short as a day.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 14, 2016, 01:09:37 pm
Judging by the reaction from around the world reported in http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-36790977 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-36790977) [1], it is clear that May is successfully projecting a 21st century image of the UK around the world.

[1]"Apparently stifling a laugh on hearing the news of Mr Johnson's new job, [USA] state department spokesman Mark Toner says ...",
"The German journalist Laura Schneider points to a certain amount of mirth on television as presenters announce Mr Johnson's new role."
"The former prime minister of Sweden, Carl Bildt, tweets that he wishes the appointment were a joke."
etc

Boris is no fool.
He's a very smart operator
The fact that he has been appointed shows the support he has from Tory MP's
Perhaps those who ranted about Boris post brexit can understand why he reacted as he did when Gove stabbed him in the back.
Gove was always the sacrificial goat.
Who gives a shit about the media.
I think May has made some good choices that strike a balance between the unity of her MP's and the task of managing our future outside the EU.

I don't care about the media. I do care about the people de Peffell will be talking to, e.g. Mark Toner's bosses (qv). Those people won't be able to get that image out of their mind.

Having the approval of Tory MPs isn't exactly a recommendation; most of them can be extraordinarily bone-headed at time.

As for de Pfeffel being smart and not a fool, that's open to question. There's plenty of evidence that he is a loose cannon, and that's not a good starting point w.r.t. delicate negotiations.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 14, 2016, 01:11:37 pm
The people of the UK has spoken, and she will just execute their will. Not a big deal. She cannot be blamed if the Brexit turns out to be a catastrophe as the people of the UK has specifically asked for it.

Our politicians should be leaders of public opinion, not followers of public opinion.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kalvin on July 14, 2016, 01:16:35 pm
Quote
It will take at least two years before the negotiations are completed,

I think it is UPTO two years, unless both sides extend.

So that "two year period"  could be as short as a day.

At least two years but it can be extended, thus it cannot be shortened from the two years minimum - as I understand it.

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-European-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html (http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-European-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_Union (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_Union)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kalvin on July 14, 2016, 01:20:10 pm
The people of the UK has spoken, and she will just execute their will. Not a big deal. She cannot be blamed if the Brexit turns out to be a catastrophe as the people of the UK has specifically asked for it.

Our politicians should be leaders of public opinion, not followers of public opinion.

Do not forget that the people voting for the Brexit were led by the politicians from the Brexit camp.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Kalvin on July 14, 2016, 01:57:19 pm
As Andy McCoy would say: "Sun täytyy varoo mitä sä haluut, koska sä voit saada sen" ie. "You have to be careful what you wish for, as you might get it."
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 14, 2016, 02:41:31 pm
As Andy McCoy would say: "Sun täytyy varoo mitä sä haluut, koska sä voit saada sen" ie. "You have to be careful what you wish for, as you might get it."
And all the people who voted remain thankfully dodged that bullet.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on July 14, 2016, 02:52:44 pm
Judging by the reaction from around the world reported in http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-36790977 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-36790977) [1], it is clear that May is successfully projecting a 21st century image of the UK around the world.

[1]"Apparently stifling a laugh on hearing the news of Mr Johnson's new job, [USA] state department spokesman Mark Toner says ...",
"The German journalist Laura Schneider points to a certain amount of mirth on television as presenters announce Mr Johnson's new role."
"The former prime minister of Sweden, Carl Bildt, tweets that he wishes the appointment were a joke."
etc

Boris is no fool.
He's a very smart operator
The fact that he has been appointed shows the support he has from Tory MP's
Perhaps those who ranted about Boris post brexit can understand why he reacted as he did when Gove stabbed him in the back.
Gove was always the sacrificial goat.
Who gives a shit about the media.
I think May has made some good choices that strike a balance between the unity of her MP's and the task of managing our future outside the EU.

I don't care about the media. I do care about the people de Peffell will be talking to, e.g. Mark Toner's bosses (qv). Those people won't be able to get that image out of their mind.

Having the approval of Tory MPs isn't exactly a recommendation; most of them can be extraordinarily bone-headed at time.

As for de Pfeffel being smart and not a fool, that's open to question. There's plenty of evidence that he is a loose cannon, and that's not a good starting point w.r.t. delicate negotiations.


Do you have any idea how real politics works ?  :palm:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rstofer on July 14, 2016, 04:19:45 pm
Keep your friends close, your enemies closer!
Look what Obama did with Clinton in the first evolution.  He made her SoS so he could keep an eye on her!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: donotdespisethesnake on July 14, 2016, 06:21:55 pm
Quote
It will take at least two years before the negotiations are completed,

I think it is UPTO two years, unless both sides extend.

So that "two year period"  could be as short as a day.

At least two years but it can be extended, thus it cannot be shortened from the two years minimum - as I understand it.

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-European-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html (http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the-lisbon-treaty/treaty-on-European-union-and-comments/title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_Union (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_Union)

No, it's up to two years from time of formal notification, but can be shorter or longer by agreement. Typical EU bureaucratic design :)

Quote
The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of [..] the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on July 14, 2016, 08:44:58 pm
Our president for example keeps denying the link between Islam and the current wave of global terrorism, and when the French president once mentioned Islamic terrorists, it was censored on the White House's web site.

The problem is that this generation of Liberal "thinking" is staggeringly naive  :scared:

Obama is trying to make muslims not feel like victims all the time, like if you beat a dog eventually he's going to bite back. So by treating their religion with what he thinks of as respect, he's hoping that they will stop holding such a negative view of the West.
Meanwhile the entire muslim world is quietly carrying on its side quest for Islamic rule, either by direct violence or by passive non-disagreement with ISIS's aims.

Unfortunately, until politicians finally recognise that violence is at the core of this religion, then they will continue treating them like nothing more than angry Methodists, and every foothold they get into Europe and America is another nail in our coffin.

Unless (like all the Progressive Liberals out there), people actually imagine power sharing with a political theocracy is going to go well for them :palm:
If so, History clearly wasn't their strong point.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on July 14, 2016, 09:28:43 pm
If the UK and US had listened to the UN and not invaded Iraq we wouldn't have had this problem to begin with.

Not really,
the UN had already unanimously passed Resolution 1441. "a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations"

The only reason that did not technically sanction war was the stronger wording of previous resolutions, so the eighteenth resolution was proposed with majority UN member support, but then withdrawn because France decided it wasn't going to support a deadline.

Iraq continued to dick everyone around until Bush decided to pull the trigger on going to war.
Your suggestion that this was wholly against the will of the UN is misleading.

What caused the current hell in the middle east is mainly the Iraq war.

Not really,
unless you want to go back to the formation of Israel.

The background to most of this was the Iranian Islamic revolution, where once again muslims decide that a violent theocracy is the way forward for the world and instigated the rebirth of political Islam.

Iraq's fear of a Shia insurgency then led to the Iran-Iraq war and the development of chemical weapons. The same chemical weapons that led to the later invasion by the US/UK.

Christian mobs burned down the library of Alexandria

Not really,
yes the Crusaders burned a few muslim books, however the entirety of the contents were lost when the muslims invaded Constantinople in 1453.
Which is somewhat academic considering the library was actually founded by the Christian, Constantius II, primarily so the works of Greek literature could be preserved.

It was probably Caesar's troops that accidentally burnt it down, or maybe Caliph Omar.

If the muslims didn't see fit to preserve their own history and left it up to a Christian to do it for them, then hard cheese if the Crusaders come along later and burn the lot.
It's not like ISIS are any different in their attitude to preserving the history of islam.

Let me translate that sign for you: "with the people, for the fatherland".

"Fosterland" translates as Motherland doesn't it?  Which lacks any Nazi associations I think.

You have not heard of the bombing and massacre in Norway 5 years ago by a right wing extremist?

Which was merely a reaction to muslim immigration, if you weren't importing an alien culture then it wouldn't have happened. If you change a society overnight and then suppress all opposition to it, then expect a violent reaction.
Muslim terrorism is inevitably down to something happening thousands of miles away, entirely because they all consider themselves one big psychotic family.
You don't get Methodists beheading people when someone sniggers at their Bible do you?

The EU asylum seekers need to be distributed fairly and evenly among all the member states

Why? Why make people travel 5000km instead of simply walking next door to the refugee camps in Lebanon, waiting a year or so, then go back home and carry on?
Why is Sweden's solution the best one for dealing with this, when it's kind of obvious that it has directly precipitated Brexit and created a social nightmare for Sweden for decades to come.
Name one country (other than Sweden) on the entire planet that wishes it had accepted more muslims.
Nope, nobody, nada, no one - because everyone else is pointing at Sweden and saying "WTF  were they thinking.... :scared:"
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 14, 2016, 10:07:29 pm
The people of the UK has spoken, and she will just execute their will. Not a big deal. She cannot be blamed if the Brexit turns out to be a catastrophe as the people of the UK has specifically asked for it.

Our politicians should be leaders of public opinion, not followers of public opinion.

Do not forget that the people voting for the Brexit were led by the politicians from the Brexit camp.

Just so.

I don't know of anything that can prevent people being led to their doom, especially if the leaders really do believe they are going in the right direction. Some of the Brexit leaders did believe that.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on July 14, 2016, 10:46:25 pm
The people of the UK has spoken, and she will just execute their will. Not a big deal. She cannot be blamed if the Brexit turns out to be a catastrophe as the people of the UK has specifically asked for it.

Our politicians should be leaders of public opinion, not followers of public opinion.

Do not forget that the people voting for the Brexit were led by the politicians from the Brexit camp.

Just so.

I don't know of anything that can prevent people being led to their doom, especially if the leaders really do believe they are going in the right direction. Some of the Brexit leaders did believe that.

Seriously mate, get over it.  We are leaving the EU.  Life as you know it is not going to end, no matter how much you appear to wish for it. 

Every post from you is pure scaremongering, fortunately the reality is quite different.

Genuine question:  Do you hope Brexit is a success or a failure?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 14, 2016, 10:53:36 pm
The people of the UK has spoken, and she will just execute their will. Not a big deal. She cannot be blamed if the Brexit turns out to be a catastrophe as the people of the UK has specifically asked for it.

Our politicians should be leaders of public opinion, not followers of public opinion.

Do not forget that the people voting for the Brexit were led by the politicians from the Brexit camp.

Just so.

I don't know of anything that can prevent people being led to their doom, especially if the leaders really do believe they are going in the right direction. Some of the Brexit leaders did believe that.

Seriously mate, get over it.  We are leaving the EU.  Life as you know it is not going to end, no matter how much you appear to wish for it. 

Every post from you is pure scaremongering, fortunately the reality is quite different.

Excellent. Now all you have to do is prove your assertion.

Quote
Genuine question:  Do you hope Brexit is a success or a failure?

Stupid question. There will be winners and losers. What I hope is irrelevant.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 14, 2016, 11:04:13 pm
Just so.

I don't know of anything that can prevent people being led to their doom, especially if the leaders really do believe they are going in the right direction. Some of the Brexit leaders did believe that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EH1G4EwljM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EH1G4EwljM)

Please, please, please ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjxseHuUSYI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjxseHuUSYI)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on July 14, 2016, 11:07:11 pm
I had asked earlier if it is as bad as whats being shown in the UK and never got an answer. I haven't been to the UK in about 24 years so all I can go by is whats in the mainstream news and independents. Both sources don't seem to picture a cheery multicultural melting pot.

Depends what you mean as bad,
a lot of these are isolated incidents and it really depends in what area you live in if you see any of this at all.

The issue is more of a slow creeping change in society that is alienating a percentage of the population.
The young don't care, they have no investment in houses and never will have, they have made no investment in the status of the UK, so don't really care if it is now shared with a million people from Africa who also have nothing invested.
The idea of Nationalism is foreign to them as they've never seen family come back from a war.

You only notice the differences if you look at census data for either religious or ethnic differences - each group lives in tight little communities, which may only be a few streets wide, but they are statistically significant.
If your entire society is stratified like this then there will be a lot of unspoken friction between groups.

Politicians declare we are a very diverse country where everyone gets along, which isn't true, everyone lives apart but shares the same job market.
Again, young people will be oblivious to slow moving demographic changes, but they stand out to older people as a negative influence.

This isn't going to turn into a race war in this decade, but if Bretix hadn't have been forced upon us, then we would have certainly had our own Breivik(s) to reflect upon.

If you visit Luton/Bradford/London/Birmingham/Leicester then they really do feel like another country. Any other city will be noticeably more diverse than it was even 10 years ago.
Overall the UK is nothing like it was 30 years ago, back then it was clearly a homogeneous white culture, now the only place that still exists is in small rural villages.



Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 14, 2016, 11:08:50 pm
So Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson as foreign secretary, that was a bit odd. Not so much that he has insulted people/countries, but will he have the respect of his peers? Seems to me that would be important for a top diplomat. Appears like he is being rewarded by PM May with this position. Can't really make heads or tails of this. :-//
Quote
Newspaper Le Figaro says Mr Johnson "gives the impression of being guided by opportunism".
The newspaper says the UK's new foreign secretary's political career has seen him change his mind on gay marriage and on Turkey joining the EU.
Pierre Jova writes in the paper: "Although, he has a 'clown' image which delighted the tabloids with his antics and punchy statements, he was a comrade of David Cameron at Eton and Oxford and is a pure product of the British conservative aristocracy raised to govern."
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 14, 2016, 11:12:09 pm
I was wondering why some brexiters are so upset over the perceived lack of democracy in the EU and stumbled over this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9rGX91rq5I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9rGX91rq5I)

It seems to me like you should be worried about the state of democracy in the UK instead. :scared:

Edit: grammar  :-[
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on July 14, 2016, 11:16:04 pm
Any other city will be noticeably more diverse than it was even 10 years ago.
Overall the UK is nothing like it was 30 years ago, back then it was clearly a homogeneous white culture, now the only place that still exists is in small rural villages.
You'll get used to it. If I enter a restaurant with only white Caucasian people I feel weird.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on July 14, 2016, 11:23:34 pm
You'll get used to it. If I enter a restaurant with only white Caucasian people I feel weird.

What if I don't want to get used to it?
If I wanted to experience the curious customs of another culture then I'd get on a plane, take pictures and get diarrhoea.

One of the things I used to like about the UK was a shared sense of belonging, now I don't belong anywhere - and annoyingly this major lifestyle decision was made for me by a group of people that I despise.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 14, 2016, 11:48:07 pm
You'll get used to it. If I enter a restaurant with only white Caucasian people I feel weird.

What if I don't want to get used to it?
If I wanted to experience the curious customs of another culture then I'd get on a plane, take pictures and get diarrhoea.

One of the things I used to like about the UK was a shared sense of belonging, now I don't belong anywhere - and annoyingly this major lifestyle decision was made for me by a group of people that I despise.

We shouldn't need to have to put up with huge numbers of horrible attacks in the West, as if we were living in a time of war.

This nonsense is turning the EU into a giant Israel "like" situation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36800730 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36800730)

But I don't know what the perfect answer is.

I wonder to what extent, Brexit was a result of things like that ?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 14, 2016, 11:57:52 pm
Wow that just happened. I thought you were referring to the attack at the concert. They are getting so frequent over there I can't keep track any more.

I bet if I was French and living there, I'd be furious.
It's just craziness.
They want to live by the sword, and actually go round killing people. Instead of diplomacy/democracy.
It is totally unacceptable. If we let nonsense like that carry on, it would probably end the Wests way of life, as we know it.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 15, 2016, 12:04:40 am
I bet if I was French and living there, I'd be furious.
It's just craziness.
They want to live by the sword, and actually go round killing people. Instead of diplomacy/democracy.
It is totally unacceptable. If we let nonsense like that carry on, it would probably end the West, as we know it.
Have they identified the driver yet?
Assuming it is ISIS again. They definitely need to be stopped. Their goal is to try to create more hostility between religious groups in west, would be catastrophic if they succeed obviously. Which in turn would give them even more soldiers to their army in Syria. The solution is to crush ISIS as soon as possible!  >:(
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 15, 2016, 12:08:31 am
Have they identified the driver yet?
Assuming it is ISIS again. They definitely need to be stopped. Their goal is to try to create more hostility between religious groups in west, would be catastrophic if they succeed obviously. Which in turn would give them even more soldiers to their army in Syria. The solution is to crush ISIS as soon as possible!  >:(

No. They are not saying yet, but (from my earlier link) ...

Quote
'Pretty clear' incident was terror attack - expert
Posted at
00:52
Terrorism expert Claude Moniquet say it is "pretty clear" the incident in Nice was a terror attack. He says the idea was "clearly" to wait until the end of the Euro 2016 football tournament to launch the attack.

He says there has been no official confirmation of guns or grenades being found in the truck, but if those reports prove to be true, it would indicate a "more elaborate" and "more professional" plot.

He says that if the attacker was French, his identity will already be known to authorities.

Officials have yet to confirm whether the incident was a terror attack.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 15, 2016, 12:43:04 am
The solution is to crush ISIS as soon as possible!  >:(

Difficult to do while adhering to the rules of war anyway, considering they would just drop their uniforms and weapons and fade into the civilian population. The only way to stop or reduce events like this is to put another dictator in charge over there, at least they keep the killing mainily to themselves. The world is not ready for open borders yet, at least some of it isn't anyway.

I think the concern of events like this escalating is one of the reasons BREXIT was successful. Assuming this was yet another islamist chicken shit attack I guess maybe their concerns were justified.
The Syrian president seems to think they can defeat ISIS within a few months. Maybe optimistic, but with help from the west it could probably be done.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/bashar-al-assad-says-u-s-not-serious-about-defeating-n609036 (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/bashar-al-assad-says-u-s-not-serious-about-defeating-n609036)

ISIS was created by former leader for Iraq's secret service, their goal is to retake control of Iraq. Brexit won't make a difference at all in this case. It's enough with one person and a truck to create this kind of attack. The only thing that will put an end to it is to crush ISIS once and for all. >:(
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on July 15, 2016, 01:24:55 am
"What you and many others are failing to understand is that it’s not just ISIS, stamp out ISIS today and tomorrow will come ISIS 2.0. "

Absolutely. What we are seeing now is decades of genocide by european political leaders and suicide by some voters. It is not clear if it isn't too late, as the enemies are within. You opened your doors to wolves, you invited buchers into your house, for decades, under multiculturalism. And political correctness.

Military solutions are only a small part of the responses.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 15, 2016, 02:47:01 am
Any other city will be noticeably more diverse than it was even 10 years ago.
Overall the UK is nothing like it was 30 years ago, back then it was clearly a homogeneous white culture, now the only place that still exists is in small rural villages.
You'll get used to it. If I enter a restaurant with only white Caucasian people I feel weird.

It's not about skin color, it's about culture, values and the willingness to assimilate in the host culture. Some cultures are more compatible than others. Ignoring this in the name of absolute multiculturalism is naive and dangerous. Europe lost the ability and willingness to defend itself. I see similar tendencies from the political left here.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 15, 2016, 07:14:01 am
So Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson as foreign secretary, that was a bit odd. Not so much that he has insulted people/countries, but will he have the respect of his peers? Seems to me that would be important for a top diplomat. Appears like he is being rewarded by PM May with this position. Can't really make heads or tails of this. :-//

Neither can I.

The least bad explanations that make any sense to me are that she is setting him up to fail (unlikely, since that is setting the UK up to fail), or that she is trying to keep the Tory party together (and bugger the negotiations and UK). More devious (and less likely) explanations can be invented, of course.

The most ridiculous explanation is that he is the best person to represent the UK.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 15, 2016, 07:53:46 am
Western democracies aren't truly democracies anymore. The way parties can hold a majority in parliment while not getting anywhere near half the popular vote is not democracy. A prime example is the Ontario liberal crooks managed to get in with a majority of Provincial parliment seats while only getting 19% of the vote, thats absurd. They have no right to dictate policy with numbers like that.
Thank the first past the post system for that. It's a very flawed system. It mainly plagues the former British empire, though:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/Countries_That_Use_a_First_Past_the_Post_Voting_System.png)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 15, 2016, 08:29:58 am
Western democracies aren't truly democracies anymore.

There are no Western democracies and never have been, full stop. The last democracy was ancient Athens, and they only had around ~1000 citizens who could vote (plus a lot of non-citizens).

There are many Western (and other) representative democracies.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: 3db on July 15, 2016, 08:42:57 am
Just so.

I don't know of anything that can prevent people being led to their doom, especially if the leaders really do believe they are going in the right direction. Some of the Brexit leaders did believe that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EH1G4EwljM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EH1G4EwljM)

Please, please, please ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjxseHuUSYI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjxseHuUSYI)

Awesome !!   :-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Galenbo on July 15, 2016, 12:56:31 pm
If it is ISIS they will claim responsibilty.

"ISIS" claims responsability for every attack against Kafir that is performed according to the Koran.
Everybody can be "ISIS", it's like "hacker" group "Anonymous"
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on July 15, 2016, 03:10:07 pm
You'll get used to it. If I enter a restaurant with only white Caucasian people I feel weird.

What if I don't want to get used to it?
If I wanted to experience the curious customs of another culture then I'd get on a plane, take pictures and get diarrhoea.

One of the things I used to like about the UK was a shared sense of belonging, now I don't belong anywhere - and annoyingly this major lifestyle decision was made for me by a group of people that I despise.

We shouldn't need to have to put up with huge numbers of horrible attacks in the West, as if we were living in a time of war.

This nonsense is turning the EU into a giant Israel "like" situation.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36800730 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36800730)

But I don't know what the perfect answer is.

I wonder to what extent, Brexit was a result of things like that ?

 
Please don't laugh me that is impossible that eu be become on great Israel. First, on Israel the  truck driver would have died only by disobedied the order to halt of the police

Second point, Israel would have collapsed the familiar house of terrorist and the Mossad would have launched a "Murder Selective " versus the headers and intellectuals.

And here , they never will have the valor to do that.



I wonder to what extent, Brexit was a result of things like that ?

The british haven't got the enemy on front the gates.The enemy is inside ,besides the british have bred to them

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 15, 2016, 03:25:13 pm
This thread was not meant for discussing recent attacks or ISIS, please can we stay broadly on topic and not get out of control.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Delta on July 15, 2016, 05:32:20 pm
This thread was not meant for discussing recent attacks or ISIS, please can we stay broadly on topic and not get out of control.

Good idea.

How about a new mini-poll:

When do you think Article 50 will be triggered?

This year?
Next Year?
2018?
Never?

I would like to see it done sooner rather than later, but not rushed...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on July 15, 2016, 05:41:36 pm
How it can be that a majority of a population opposes increased immigration, yet we are led by people who push it. How does this happen? At first some economic interests might have been relevant, but that's no longer true. The current Islamic immigrants are not guest laborers and the flow of economically productive intra EU immigrants (non-gypsie eastern Europeans) has slowed down.

The wests demographic decline means we will have to reduce our productivity and dedicate more labor to elderly care, but even then immigration with the current quality of migrants is net negative. We end up having to care for the elderly and non contributing immigrants who destroy our competitiveness compared to economies who maintain far more selective immigration.

There are no economic reasons to allow refugees citizenship or continued immigration of economically unproductive EU migrants, there is no majority electoral support for it. Yet our politicians support it. Why? Do they really buy "there is no alternative"? I think they are mostly value signaling, I think the leadership only feel truly relevant when rubbing shoulders with the international elite and participating in international decision making. National politics and interests are beneath them and this attitude filters down the chain. They have no respect for their electorate and we little for them, I wonder which of us will destroy the other in this process first. If we have the audacity to elect Wilders with a large enough majority to make him PM I'm sure it will be hailed as "the end of democracy" or some such by the old political leadership and their media flunkies (ie. people keep making the wrong choices, so democracy is dead).

Jo Cox was really a grotesque example of all that is wrong with politics. A wonderful young women, either completely out of touch with her electorate or intentionally not representing them. Her constituency voted to leave (http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-politics-of-murder-in-britain) even after her murder. Anyone who believes that wasn't because of immigration is fooling himself in my opinion.

Quote
Many in Market Place wept openly as those words were spoken, and it was difficult to imagine anyone who could have listened to that speech, and then voted to leave the European Union. But the next evening, as the polls closed, many told me they had done just that. At the Batley Conservative Club, a vast and formerly grand establishment at odds with its dwindling clientele of mostly old, white men, two members, named Darren and Stuart (they declined to offer their surnames), sat at the bar discussing how they had both voted Leave. Darren knew Jo Cox from school and said she was “a lovely lass.” But both men spoke repeatedly about how they had been let down by politicians, particularly on the issue of immigration. Their complaint did not just concern the recent migrants from the E.U. but the older Muslim residents of Batley. Darren put his wish to leave the E.U. partly down to “the change in the town and the feeling in the town. There are certain people who don’t integrate.” Stuart said that “it’s a sad thing what happened last week,” but added, “We just want our country back.” Both men expected the “Jo Cox thing” to have “skewed” the result toward Remain, but they still expected a majority in the district to have voted Leave.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 15, 2016, 05:50:04 pm
This thread was not meant for discussing recent attacks or ISIS, please can we stay broadly on topic and not get out of control.

Good idea.

How about a new mini-poll:

When do you think Article 50 will be triggered?

This year?
Next Year?
2018?
Never?

I would like to see it done sooner rather than later, but not rushed...

Since it is part of a massive deal, for the UK/EU. I would imagine that the "article 50" stage, is an important chance for them to begin to negotiate.
In other words, even while they trigger the "article 50", they can use its imminent initiation, to get some provisional agreement(s). If not, they wait until a better agreement has been made.

Analogy:
Let's say I was going to buy an expensive scope from you. But we needed to do the transaction, formally, with lots of documentation.
So stage one, might be that I express interest in buying it, and want to know the price.
If I was cheeky, I could pre-contact you or someone in your household, and ask about an agreement to get free postage, for whatever scope we agree that I'm buying.

So what I would really be doing, is discretely starting the bargaining process.
Then I only have to worry about the scope's price. I no longer would need to worry about excessive/greedy postage/delivery charges.

Even the length of time brexit will take, may need bargaining with, before hand, since the two years, would seem to be completely unrealistic, to at least me. If not others.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on July 15, 2016, 06:14:41 pm
This thread was not meant for discussing recent attacks or ISIS, please can we stay broadly on topic and not get out of control.

Good idea.

How about a new mini-poll:

When do you think Article 50 will be triggered?

This year?
Next Year?
2018?
Never?

I would like to see it done sooner rather than later, but not rushed...

Since it is part of a massive deal, for the UK/EU. I would imagine that the "article 50" stage, is an important chance for them to begin to negotiate.
In other words, even while they trigger the "article 50", they can use its imminent initiation, to get some provisional agreement(s). If not, they wait until a better agreement has been made.

Analogy:
Let's say I was going to buy an expensive scope from you. But we needed to do the transaction, formally, with lots of documentation.
So stage one, might be that I express interest in buying it, and want to know the price.
If I was cheeky, I could pre-contact you or someone in your household, and ask about an agreement to get free postage, for whatever scope we agree that I'm buying.

So what I would really be doing, is discretely starting the bargaining process.
Then I only have to worry about the scope's price. I no longer would need to worry about excessive/greedy postage/delivery charges.

Even the length of time brexit will take, may need bargaining with, before hand, since the two years, would seem to be completely unrealistic, to at least me. If not others.

Simply, it can to happen that the EU don't want negociate more and the great bussiness and  corporations get tired and they decide  offshoring.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 15, 2016, 06:16:43 pm
Simply, it can to happen that the EU don't want negociate more and the great bussiness and  corporations get tired and they decide  offshoring.

Or other countries may also end up exiting the EU, and it is the EU itself which disappears, or becomes relatively irrelevant.

Also my apologies, I have not replied to your earlier post, since it has been requested to keep on topic.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on July 15, 2016, 06:32:47 pm
Simply, it can to happen that the EU don't want negociate more and the great bussiness and  corporations get tired and they decide  offshoring.

Or other countries may also end up exiting the EU, and it is the EU itself which disappears, or becomes relatively irrelevant.

Also my apologies, I have not replied to your earlier post, since it has been requested to keep on topic.

Seeing as the british politicians are fighting among them for signing the article 50 . i doubt that  people of  other countries wanted voted for go out the EU
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 15, 2016, 06:39:46 pm
Since it is part of a massive deal, for the UK/EU. I would imagine that the "article 50" stage, is an important chance for them to begin to negotiate.
In other words, even while they trigger the "article 50", they can use its imminent initiation, to get some provisional agreement(s). If not, they wait until a better agreement has been made.
First you figure out how to untangle yourself from the EU, then you leave, then you start negotiating new trade deals. You can't begin making new deals until you knew what the situation looks like once the UK have left. And while it's a massive deal for the UK, it's not a massive deal for EU; it's actually a relatively small deal, that is why it will get lower priority than a deal with the US. :-\

After article 50 is triggered the EU and the UK will begin untangling the web of treaties and agreements they already have. That process can take up to 2 years. During that time they will have to figure out things like:
Once that is complete the UK will officially leave the EU. Only then will the UK and the EU be able to begin negotiating new trade agreements and under what conditions the UK can have access to the single market, and so on.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 15, 2016, 06:40:05 pm
Seeing as the british politicians are fighting among them for signing the article 50 . i doubt that  people of  other countries wanted voted for go out the EU

Who cares what the politicians want. The UK Prime Minister, (pre-brexit), actually wanted  to remain in the EU.

It is the people, and the way they vote that matters. If it is popular among many people, to vote out (e.g. opinion polls).
Then it only takes one party to offer a referendum, if they get elected, to potentially get a referendum and hence their own "brexit", in other countries.

At least some people, me included, are getting angry at stuff like the terrible attack(s) in France. This can make people create their own versions of brexit. But I accept that is a matter of opinion/conjecture. It depends on if the EU or other factors are blamed.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: snipersquad100 on July 15, 2016, 06:42:56 pm
If Margaret Thatcher was still  prime minister, IsIs would now be known as WasWas.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 15, 2016, 06:44:27 pm
This thread was not meant for discussing recent attacks or ISIS, please can we stay broadly on topic and not get out of control.

Good idea.

How about a new mini-poll:

When do you think Article 50 will be triggered?

This year?
Next Year?
2018?
Never?

I would like to see it done sooner rather than later, but not rushed...
I think they should already have done it, but I suspect they never will. I have a feeling they will keep delaying for various reason until there is a new election. During that election the winning party will promise to stay in the EU after all. That way they will get new democratic legitimacy for staying, and then everyone will say it was for the best (which it probably is) and then they will pretend the referendum never happened. :phew:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 15, 2016, 06:46:15 pm
Since it is part of a massive deal, for the UK/EU. I would imagine that the "article 50" stage, is an important chance for them to begin to negotiate.
In other words, even while they trigger the "article 50", they can use its imminent initiation, to get some provisional agreement(s). If not, they wait until a better agreement has been made.
First you figure out how to untangle yourself from the EU, then you leave, then you start negotiating new trade deals. You can't begin making new deals until you knew what the situation looks like once the UK have left. And while it's a massive deal for the UK, it's not a massive deal for EU; it's actually a relatively small deal, that is why it will get lower priority than a deal with the US. :-\

After article 50 is triggered the EU and the UK will begin untangling the web of treaties and agreements they already have. That process can take up to 2 years. During that time they will have to figure out things like:
  • What to do with the UK citizens living in europoe and the EU citizens living in the UK (about 4.5 million people).
  • What to do with reasearch projects in the UK currently funded by the EU.
  • How to handle subsidies to UK so half of the farmers in the UK don't go bankrupt over night.
  • And so on...
Once that is complete the UK will officially leave the EU. Only then will the UK and the EU be able to begin negotiating new trade agreements and under what conditions the UK can have access to the single market, and so on.

I'm replying to the bolded section.
My understanding was that the new trade agreements and relationships would be part of the exit agreement.
I.e. The new trade agreements would start up, the instant we "physically" leave the EU.

But I am not brilliant with knowing how the EU works and does things. So I can easily accept being wrong here.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 15, 2016, 06:50:28 pm
I think they should already have done it, but I suspect they never will. I have a feeling they will keep delaying for various reason until there is a new election. During that election the winning party will promise to stay in the EU after all. That way they will get new democratic legitimacy for staying, and then everyone will say it was for the best (which it probably is) and then they will pretend the referendum never happened. :phew:

In principle, the next UK general election, would not be until 2020, and doing "article 50", in 2020 would be a crazily long delay!
Apparently there are some new rules, that make calling an early election much harder. But I'm not very familiar with that stuff.

"Google says:"
Quote
The date range for these opinion polls is from after the previous general election, held on 7 May 2015, to the present day. Under fixed-term legislation, the next general election is scheduled to be held on 7 May 2020.

But I knew is was 2020, anyway.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 15, 2016, 06:55:57 pm
So Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson as foreign secretary, that was a bit odd. Not so much that he has insulted people/countries, but will he have the respect of his peers? Seems to me that would be important for a top diplomat. Appears like he is being rewarded by PM May with this position. Can't really make heads or tails of this. :-//
Neither can I.

The least bad explanations that make any sense to me are that she is setting him up to fail (unlikely, since that is setting the UK up to fail), or that she is trying to keep the Tory party together (and bugger the negotiations and UK). More devious (and less likely) explanations can be invented, of course.

The most ridiculous explanation is that he is the best person to represent the UK.
My favorite conspiracy theory at the moment is that the EU and the UK elites planed the brexit all along. Brexit will show everyone that it sucks to leave EU, so support for the EU will go up in the rest of Europe. And once the UK inevitably ask to join again they will loose all the special deals and rebate that was rather unfair to everyone else.  O0 :-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 15, 2016, 07:00:36 pm
Only then will the UK and the EU be able to begin negotiating new trade agreements and under what conditions the UK can have access to the single market, and so on.
I'm replying to the bolded section.
My understanding was that the new trade agreements and relationships would be part of the exit agreement.
I.e. The new trade agreements would start up, the instant we "physically" leave the EU.

But I am not brilliant with knowing how the EU works and does things. So I can easily accept being wrong here.
I'm no expert either but it's what the EU trade commissioner has said:

Quote
Britain will not be able to start talks on a new trade arrangement with the EU until other aspects of its exit have been settled, the trade commissioner, Cecilia Malmström has said.

“There are actually two negotiations. First you exit, and then you negotiate the new relationship, whatever that is,” she said.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/01/cecilia-malmstrom-eu-trade-commissioner-brexit-uk-wto (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/01/cecilia-malmstrom-eu-trade-commissioner-brexit-uk-wto)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 15, 2016, 07:04:52 pm
Britain will not be able to start talks on a new trade arrangement with the EU until other aspects of its exit have been settled, the trade commissioner, Cecilia Malmström has said.

“There are actually two negotiations. First you exit, and then you negotiate the new relationship, whatever that is,” she said.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/01/cecilia-malmstrom-eu-trade-commissioner-brexit-uk-wto (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/01/cecilia-malmstrom-eu-trade-commissioner-brexit-uk-wto)

That makes a very big difference. Some voters might be annoyed at not knowing/realizing that, before they voted. Because in the meantime, UK companies may leave and/or not come to the UK, during the transitioning period.

I thought it was/is going to be a seamless process. Where by the instant the existing EU membership ends, we start up the new trade agreements etc.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 15, 2016, 07:23:42 pm
Only then will the UK and the EU be able to begin negotiating new trade agreements and under what conditions the UK can have access to the single market, and so on.
I'm replying to the bolded section.
My understanding was that the new trade agreements and relationships would be part of the exit agreement.
I.e. The new trade agreements would start up, the instant we "physically" leave the EU.

But I am not brilliant with knowing how the EU works and does things. So I can easily accept being wrong here.
I'm no expert either but it's what the EU trade commissioner has said:

Quote
Britain will not be able to start talks on a new trade arrangement with the EU until other aspects of its exit have been settled, the trade commissioner, Cecilia Malmström has said.

“There are actually two negotiations. First you exit, and then you negotiate the new relationship, whatever that is,” she said.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/01/cecilia-malmstrom-eu-trade-commissioner-brexit-uk-wto (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/01/cecilia-malmstrom-eu-trade-commissioner-brexit-uk-wto)

She has one massive dose of sour grapes. You should use the EU's democratic process to get rid of her - Oh you can't  :palm:

Do you really believe that the major EU countries who are net exporters to the UK would allow what she says to happen?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 15, 2016, 07:28:49 pm
Seeing as the british politicians are fighting among them for signing the article 50 . i doubt that  people of  other countries wanted voted for go out the EU

Who cares what the politicians want. The UK Prime Minister, (pre-brexit), actually wanted  to remain in the EU.

It is the people, and the way they vote that matters. If it is popular among many people, to vote out (e.g. opinion polls).
Then it only takes one party to offer a referendum, if they get elected, to potentially get a referendum and hence their own "brexit", in other countries.

At least some people, me included, are getting angry at stuff like the terrible attack(s) in France. This can make people create their own versions of brexit. But I accept that is a matter of opinion/conjecture. It depends on if the EU or other factors are blamed.

The EU really doesn't like referendums they very often give the wrong answer. Which in other countries means you have to keep having them until you get the right answer.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 15, 2016, 07:36:45 pm
Only then will the UK and the EU be able to begin negotiating new trade agreements and under what conditions the UK can have access to the single market, and so on.
I'm replying to the bolded section.
My understanding was that the new trade agreements and relationships would be part of the exit agreement.
I.e. The new trade agreements would start up, the instant we "physically" leave the EU.

But I am not brilliant with knowing how the EU works and does things. So I can easily accept being wrong here.
I'm no expert either but it's what the EU trade commissioner has said:

Quote
Britain will not be able to start talks on a new trade arrangement with the EU until other aspects of its exit have been settled, the trade commissioner, Cecilia Malmström has said.

“There are actually two negotiations. First you exit, and then you negotiate the new relationship, whatever that is,” she said.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/01/cecilia-malmstrom-eu-trade-commissioner-brexit-uk-wto (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/01/cecilia-malmstrom-eu-trade-commissioner-brexit-uk-wto)
She has one massive dose of sour grapes. You should use the EU's democratic process to get rid of her - Oh you can't  :palm:
Yes we can, the elected EU parliament can get rid of the commission if they want. And it looks a lot more democratic than the UK parliament to be honest.

Do you really believe that the major EU countries who are net exporters to the UK would allow what she says to happen?
She is from a country who are net exporters to the UK. The EU owe it to its own citizens to get as good deal as possible from the UK. The UK are the ones with the most to loose so they will not be in a position to make demands. 50% of UK trade is with the EU but only about 10% of EU total trade is with the UK.

No one in EU wanted this, but this is what the reality is, and now they will have to deal with it.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 15, 2016, 07:40:34 pm
I thought it was/is going to be a seamless process. Where by the instant the existing EU membership ends, we start up the new trade agreements etc.

And the penny begins to drop. We are going to be crucified, pour encourager les autres.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on July 15, 2016, 07:51:32 pm
So Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson as foreign secretary, that was a bit odd. Not so much that he has insulted people/countries, but will he have the respect of his peers? Seems to me that would be important for a top diplomat. Appears like he is being rewarded by PM May with this position. Can't really make heads or tails of this. :-//

Neither can I.

The least bad explanations that make any sense to me are that she is setting him up to fail (unlikely, since that is setting the UK up to fail), or that she is trying to keep the Tory party together (and bugger the negotiations and UK). More devious (and less likely) explanations can be invented, of course.
The most ridiculous explanation is that he is the best person to represent the UK.

I also put a pund bill behind he was appointed to finally ruin himself of any future political positions. After all he did win 'most offensive Erdogan poem' competition and he called Hillary a bitchy dragon or something similar.

The people of the UK has spoken, and she will just execute their will. Not a big deal. She cannot be blamed if the Brexit turns out to be a catastrophe as the people of the UK has specifically asked for it.

Our politicians should be leaders of public opinion, not followers of public opinion.

and what to do when the public opinion is wrong?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 15, 2016, 07:58:31 pm
Only then will the UK and the EU be able to begin negotiating new trade agreements and under what conditions the UK can have access to the single market, and so on.
I'm replying to the bolded section.
My understanding was that the new trade agreements and relationships would be part of the exit agreement.
I.e. The new trade agreements would start up, the instant we "physically" leave the EU.

But I am not brilliant with knowing how the EU works and does things. So I can easily accept being wrong here.
I'm no expert either but it's what the EU trade commissioner has said:

Quote
Britain will not be able to start talks on a new trade arrangement with the EU until other aspects of its exit have been settled, the trade commissioner, Cecilia Malmström has said.

“There are actually two negotiations. First you exit, and then you negotiate the new relationship, whatever that is,” she said.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/01/cecilia-malmstrom-eu-trade-commissioner-brexit-uk-wto (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/01/cecilia-malmstrom-eu-trade-commissioner-brexit-uk-wto)
She has one massive dose of sour grapes. You should use the EU's democratic process to get rid of her - Oh you can't  :palm:
Yes we can, the elected EU parliament can get rid of the commission if they want. And it looks a lot more democratic than the UK parliament to be honest.

Do you really believe that the major EU countries who are net exporters to the UK would allow what she says to happen?
She is from a country who are net exporters to the UK. The EU owe it to its own citizens to get as good deal as possible from the UK. The UK are the ones with the most to loose so they will not be in a position to make demands. 50% of UK trade is with the EU but only about 10% of EU total trade is with the UK.

No one in EU wanted this, but this is what the reality is, and now they will have to deal with it.
Where she's from is irrelevant.

And if you think the whole EU is in it together, you're more deluded than I thought.
The southern countries won't last much longer. Italy's banks are in the pan. The Deutsche Bank Greek bailout with your money has to end at some point.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 15, 2016, 07:58:48 pm
I thought it was/is going to be a seamless process. Where by the instant the existing EU membership ends, we start up the new trade agreements etc.

And the penny begins to drop. We are going to be crucified, pour encourager sites.

Brexit is a major change, so I've always realized that if we leave, there are likely to be a number of major and significant changes, at least some of which may (even badly) affect me. Anyway (ignoring my own vote), I have had no real control (1 vote yes, but out of 10's of millions) on the overall outcome. Because of the tens of millions of voters.

I just hope that overall, things end up for the best, for as many people as it can, if not everyone.

Even with a normal election (ignoring the way voting is split into constituencies/regions, which complicates the voting), maybe 60% of people vote for the winning government/Prime Minister and the other 40% don't. So you will have 40% of the population potentially being very unhappy with the government, for the next 5 years, after an election.
tl;dr
That's life I guess!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 15, 2016, 08:01:26 pm
@MT: aren't Portugal about to be fined for insufficient destruction of their economy EU imposed austerity measures?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 15, 2016, 08:14:09 pm
(http://starecat.com/content/wp-content/uploads/uk-brexit-cat-wanting-to-go-out-no-longer-wants-to-go-out-once-door-is-open-gif-animation-simons-cat-fail.gif)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 15, 2016, 08:21:18 pm
(http://starecat.com/content/wp-content/uploads/uk-brexit-cat-wanting-to-go-out-no-longer-wants-to-go-out-once-door-is-open-gif-animation-simons-cat-fail.gif)

That's brilliant!
So true, so so true!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 15, 2016, 08:36:29 pm
The people of the UK has spoken, and she will just execute their will. Not a big deal. She cannot be blamed if the Brexit turns out to be a catastrophe as the people of the UK has specifically asked for it.

Our politicians should be leaders of public opinion, not followers of public opinion.

and what to do when the public opinion is wrong?

That's a separate issue.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Howardlong on July 15, 2016, 08:39:30 pm
Only then will the UK and the EU be able to begin negotiating new trade agreements and under what conditions the UK can have access to the single market, and so on.
I'm replying to the bolded section.
My understanding was that the new trade agreements and relationships would be part of the exit agreement.
I.e. The new trade agreements would start up, the instant we "physically" leave the EU.

But I am not brilliant with knowing how the EU works and does things. So I can easily accept being wrong here.
I'm no expert either but it's what the EU trade commissioner has said:

Quote
Britain will not be able to start talks on a new trade arrangement with the EU until other aspects of its exit have been settled, the trade commissioner, Cecilia Malmström has said.

“There are actually two negotiations. First you exit, and then you negotiate the new relationship, whatever that is,” she said.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/01/cecilia-malmstrom-eu-trade-commissioner-brexit-uk-wto (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/01/cecilia-malmstrom-eu-trade-commissioner-brexit-uk-wto)

Cecila Malmstrom, the unelected (but nominated, bless) trade commissioner, is the epitomy of everything that is wrong with the EU. Have you read the proposals for TTIP for example? No, because you can't. So much for accountability, transaparency and representation. She can, she's the unelected head honcho, but your elected MEP can't, not unless they lock themselves away in a room without phones and cameras or copying equipment. And you and me, no. Journalists, no.  Stuffed. We are not allowed to know anything of is agreement until it's a done deal.

This, from the most pro-EU media outlet in UK.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/ttip-controversy-the-european-commission-and-big-tobacco-accused-of-cover-up-after-heavily-redacted-10473601.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/ttip-controversy-the-european-commission-and-big-tobacco-accused-of-cover-up-after-heavily-redacted-10473601.html)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 15, 2016, 08:44:58 pm
Only then will the UK and the EU be able to begin negotiating new trade agreements and under what conditions the UK can have access to the single market, and so on.
I'm replying to the bolded section.
My understanding was that the new trade agreements and relationships would be part of the exit agreement.
I.e. The new trade agreements would start up, the instant we "physically" leave the EU.

But I am not brilliant with knowing how the EU works and does things. So I can easily accept being wrong here.
I'm no expert either but it's what the EU trade commissioner has said:

Quote
Britain will not be able to start talks on a new trade arrangement with the EU until other aspects of its exit have been settled, the trade commissioner, Cecilia Malmström has said.

“There are actually two negotiations. First you exit, and then you negotiate the new relationship, whatever that is,” she said.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/01/cecilia-malmstrom-eu-trade-commissioner-brexit-uk-wto (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/01/cecilia-malmstrom-eu-trade-commissioner-brexit-uk-wto)

Cecila Malmstrom, the unelected (but nominated, bless) trade commissioner, is the epitomy of everything that is wrong with the EU. Have you read the proposals for TTIP for example? No, because you can't. So much for accountability, transaparency and representation. She can, she's the unelected head honcho, but your elected MEP can't, not unless they lock themselves away in a room without phones and cameras or copying equipment. And you and me, no. Journalists, no.  Stuffed. We are not allowed to know anything of is agreement until it's a done deal.

This, from the most pro-EU media outlet in UK.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/ttip-controversy-the-european-commission-and-big-tobacco-accused-of-cover-up-after-heavily-redacted-10473601.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/ttip-controversy-the-european-commission-and-big-tobacco-accused-of-cover-up-after-heavily-redacted-10473601.html)

In ways that matter to me (as opposed to, say, a sovereign and hangers on), the TTIP is a far greater threat to "sovereignty" than the EU. Outside the EU we will have to bend over and accept the TTIP.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on July 15, 2016, 08:55:03 pm
I thought it was/is going to be a seamless process. Where by the instant the existing EU membership ends, we start up the new trade agreements etc.

And the penny begins to drop. We are going to be crucified, pour encourager les autres.

No, you won't. There will be a deal that is a compromise for all - and most likely the best possible that can be agreed upon given the *rules and regulations*.
I don't think there will be presents though.


(I also think that, even though some parties say that there can be no pre-negotiations before submitting A.50, that the backroom negotiations are already at full speed)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 15, 2016, 09:06:01 pm
(I also think that, even though some parties say that there can be no pre-negotiations before submitting A.50, that the backroom negotiations are already at full speed)

I would expect that to be the case. If the UK government could have discussions with the IRA during the troubles, it really ought to be possible to have them with the 27!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 15, 2016, 09:07:32 pm
In ways that matter to me (as opposed to, say, a sovereign and hangers on), the TTIP is a far greater threat to "sovereignty" than the EU. Outside the EU we will have to bend over and accept the TTIP.

???? TTIP is EU only it won't apply to the UK. And it's the crazy woman who's negotiated it.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Gyro on July 15, 2016, 09:08:01 pm
Well I guess Turkey isn't going to be joining the EU anytime soon:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36809083 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36809083)

What is happening to the world?!  :scared:
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 15, 2016, 09:08:42 pm
(http://starecat.com/content/wp-content/uploads/uk-brexit-cat-wanting-to-go-out-no-longer-wants-to-go-out-once-door-is-open-gif-animation-simons-cat-fail.gif)
It's been 2 weeks. How fast do you expect things to happen?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 15, 2016, 09:42:23 pm
Only then will the UK and the EU be able to begin negotiating new trade agreements and under what conditions the UK can have access to the single market, and so on.
I'm replying to the bolded section.
My understanding was that the new trade agreements and relationships would be part of the exit agreement.
I.e. The new trade agreements would start up, the instant we "physically" leave the EU.

But I am not brilliant with knowing how the EU works and does things. So I can easily accept being wrong here.
I'm no expert either but it's what the EU trade commissioner has said:

Quote
Britain will not be able to start talks on a new trade arrangement with the EU until other aspects of its exit have been settled, the trade commissioner, Cecilia Malmström has said.

“There are actually two negotiations. First you exit, and then you negotiate the new relationship, whatever that is,” she said.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/01/cecilia-malmstrom-eu-trade-commissioner-brexit-uk-wto (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/01/cecilia-malmstrom-eu-trade-commissioner-brexit-uk-wto)

Cecila Malmstrom, the unelected (but nominated, bless) trade commissioner, is the epitomy of everything that is wrong with the EU. Have you read the proposals for TTIP for example? No, because you can't. So much for accountability, transaparency and representation. She can, she's the unelected head honcho, but your elected MEP can't, not unless they lock themselves away in a room without phones and cameras or copying equipment. And you and me, no. Journalists, no.  Stuffed. We are not allowed to know anything of is agreement until it's a done deal.

This, from the most pro-EU media outlet in UK.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/ttip-controversy-the-european-commission-and-big-tobacco-accused-of-cover-up-after-heavily-redacted-10473601.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/ttip-controversy-the-european-commission-and-big-tobacco-accused-of-cover-up-after-heavily-redacted-10473601.html)
Head honcho or not, she's trade commissioner and would know how the EU wants the negotiations to be conducted.

I know more about TTIP than I care to and I'm not a fan either. But I don't think leaving the EU will help the UK in this matter since the UK government is one of the governments that have been pushing TTIP most enthusiastically. (Like Sweden I'm sad to say, which is likely why a swede was appointed trade commissioner.) You are at the back of the queue now, but worry not your turn will come, and then you will not have the other 27 backing you up or helping by pulling the brake like many of the other EU countries have been doing.

But I agree that the lack of transparency is a huge problem in EU that needs to be fixed. A problem with TTIP is that the other party (the USA) must also agree to make the negotiations public, so it's not only up to the EU.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 15, 2016, 09:45:37 pm
Well I guess Turkey isn't going to be joining the EU anytime soon:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36809083 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36809083)

What is happening to the world?!  :scared:
Yeah, meanwhile in Turkey... :o
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 15, 2016, 09:48:53 pm
So Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson as foreign secretary, that was a bit odd. Not so much that he has insulted people/countries, but will he have the respect of his peers? Seems to me that would be important for a top diplomat. Appears like he is being rewarded by PM May with this position. Can't really make heads or tails of this. :-//
Neither can I.

The least bad explanations that make any sense to me are that she is setting him up to fail (unlikely, since that is setting the UK up to fail), or that she is trying to keep the Tory party together (and bugger the negotiations and UK). More devious (and less likely) explanations can be invented, of course.
The most ridiculous explanation is that he is the best person to represent the UK.
I also put a pund bill behind he was appointed to finally ruin himself of any future political positions. After all he did win 'most offensive Erdogan poem' competition and he called Hillary a bitchy dragon or something similar.
"A map of all the countries Boris Johnson has offended"
(http://indy100.independent.co.uk/image/17300-1xxtrm7.jpg)
http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/updated-a-map-of-all-the-countries-boris-johnson-has-offended--W1zaTLC63rW?utm_source=indy&utm_medium=top5&utm_campaign=i100 (http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/updated-a-map-of-all-the-countries-boris-johnson-has-offended--W1zaTLC63rW?utm_source=indy&utm_medium=top5&utm_campaign=i100)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 15, 2016, 09:56:36 pm
Or other countries may also end up exiting the EU
How? It was political suicide for Cameron to hold that referendum. Why would any other government want to follow his example? I am not aware of any similar state of affairs in other governments regarding the EU as the one in Cameron's cabinet and hinterland.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 15, 2016, 10:01:08 pm
So Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson as foreign secretary, that was a bit odd. Not so much that he has insulted people/countries, but will he have the respect of his peers? Seems to me that would be important for a top diplomat. Appears like he is being rewarded by PM May with this position. Can't really make heads or tails of this. :-//
Neither can I.

The least bad explanations that make any sense to me are that she is setting him up to fail (unlikely, since that is setting the UK up to fail), or that she is trying to keep the Tory party together (and bugger the negotiations and UK). More devious (and less likely) explanations can be invented, of course.
The most ridiculous explanation is that he is the best person to represent the UK.
I also put a pund bill behind he was appointed to finally ruin himself of any future political positions. After all he did win 'most offensive Erdogan poem' competition and he called Hillary a bitchy dragon or something similar.
"A map of all the countries Boris Johnson has offended"
(http://indy100.independent.co.uk/image/17300-1xxtrm7.jpg)
http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/updated-a-map-of-all-the-countries-boris-johnson-has-offended--W1zaTLC63rW?utm_source=indy&utm_medium=top5&utm_campaign=i100 (http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/updated-a-map-of-all-the-countries-boris-johnson-has-offended--W1zaTLC63rW?utm_source=indy&utm_medium=top5&utm_campaign=i100)

Ooh he's nearly got the full set!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: tggzzz on July 15, 2016, 10:01:52 pm
Or other countries may also end up exiting the EU
How? It was political suicide for Cameron to hold that referendum. Why would any other government want to follow his example? I am not aware of any similar state of affairs in other governments regarding the EU as the one in Cameron's cabinet and hinterland.

Referendums no, but general elections are conceivable way to make it happen. That is to be avoided if at all possible, hence... see my previous comments.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 15, 2016, 10:02:13 pm
And while it's a massive deal for the UK, it's not a massive deal for EU; it's actually a relatively small deal, that is why it will get lower priority than a deal with the US. :-\
There will probably be those in Brussels who will breathe a sigh of relief when Britain has left. A major obstacle to the union project will have been removed...
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 15, 2016, 10:07:24 pm
(http://starecat.com/content/wp-content/uploads/uk-brexit-cat-wanting-to-go-out-no-longer-wants-to-go-out-once-door-is-open-gif-animation-simons-cat-fail.gif)

That's brilliant!
So true, so so true!

True?

1. They didn't try to pull the handle yet.

2. They want to leave the EU, not to join it.

Anyway, cats are awesome.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 15, 2016, 10:11:10 pm
Or other countries may also end up exiting the EU
How? It was political suicide for Cameron to hold that referendum. Why would any other government want to follow his example? I am not aware of any similar state of affairs in other governments regarding the EU as the one in Cameron's cabinet and hinterland.

I agree, that those currently in power, may decide to not do it. But on the other hand, later there will be fresh general elections (in coming years).

So let's say the time has come for a new general election, in a different EU country.

For arguments sake the current main party there usually gets 55% of the votes, and the opposition 45%.
If the main party declares giving no referendum, if they win the elections.
Then the weaker (45%), opposition, may offer a referendum vote on leaving the EU, if they think they will get more votes (than they lose), by offering it.
If they then win the election, their referendum, may have the same result as ours.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: nctnico on July 15, 2016, 10:11:37 pm
"A map of all the countries Boris Johnson has offended"
Ooh he's nearly got the full set!
Fortunately he left making jokes about Belgians to the Dutch  >:D
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on July 15, 2016, 10:12:42 pm
@MT: aren't Portugal about to be fined for insufficient destruction of their economy EU imposed austerity measures?
How the hell should i know, im from Finland,but i do hope they will! ;D
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 15, 2016, 10:18:54 pm
True?

1. They didn't try to pull the handle yet.

2. They want to leave the EU, not to join it.

Anyway, cats are awesome.

Well I agree, it is far from pUrrfect (pun intended), but it is not bad, and at least funny for me.

One does get the impression, that lots of people are worried that they may have done the wrong thing (as regards the vote), and/or are worried about what will happen next, even though they voted to remain.

We (UK), haven't exactly been banging on the door, ready to sign Article 50. It still is not clear, when it is going to happen (be signed). At least we have the new Prime Minster (PM) and cabinet, ready to start the ball rolling. MP's will probably have to vote it in as well (technically speaking, but it should just be a technicality. But British politics, is never always that straight forward).
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on July 15, 2016, 10:20:28 pm
Me a british bleu shorthair/chartreux leaving EU? Noooeow!
(https://uk.animalblog.co/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/british-shorthair-bleu.jpg)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 15, 2016, 10:22:04 pm
Anyway, cats are awesome.
Finally something I can agree with! ;D
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 15, 2016, 10:30:44 pm
"A map of all the countries Boris Johnson has offended"
Ooh he's nearly got the full set!
Fortunately he left making jokes about Belgians to the Dutch  >:D

I'm sure they don't all deserve what you guys say :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 15, 2016, 10:32:24 pm
@MT: aren't Portugal about to be fined for insufficient destruction of their economy EU imposed austerity measures?
How the hell should i know, im from Finland,but i do hope they will! ;D

You were flying a Portuguese flag. I see you have changed to another flag of convenience now. I'm obviously too easily confused.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: donotdespisethesnake on July 15, 2016, 10:37:16 pm
There seems to be a widespread misunderstanding that the "Brexit negotiations" will be to negotiate a deal more favourable to UK : i.e. trade but with immigration control. That is just not going to happen.

The negotiations are to decide what to do with all the outstanding payments, EU grants, EU and Brit nationals, how to repeal the EU legislation, what happens to Erasmus students, and all those loose ends.

The Swiss are currently trying to implement a binding referendum to introduce restrictions on immigration, but the EU are saying "no free movement; no free trade". I don't think the EU are going to make exceptions for anyone.

Meanwhile Turkey is going down the pan, and Italy's banks are teetering on the brink of collapse (the Italy problem many times worse than Greece). Euro-skeptic nationalists threaten to do well in elections in Italy, France and elsewhere. The EU project narrowly avoided disaster with Greece, the next upsets may prove terminal.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 15, 2016, 11:00:54 pm
There seems to be a widespread misunderstanding that the "Brexit negotiations" will be to negotiate a deal more favourable to UK : i.e. trade but with immigration control. That is just not going to happen.

The negotiations are to decide what to do with all the outstanding payments, EU grants, EU and Brit nationals, how to repeal the EU legislation, what happens to Erasmus students, and all those loose ends.

The Swiss are currently trying to implement a binding referendum to introduce restrictions on immigration, but the EU are saying "no free movement; no free trade". I don't think the EU are going to make exceptions for anyone.

Meanwhile Turkey is going down the pan, and Italy's banks are teetering on the brink of collapse (the Italy problem many times worse than Greece). Euro-skeptic nationalists threaten to do well in elections in Italy, France and elsewhere. The EU project narrowly avoided disaster with Greece, the next upsets may prove terminal.

They made an exception for Lichtenstein on free movement.

Greece isn't over. The money bailing out Deutsche Bank is still being added to Greece's tab, which Greece has no chance of ever repaying
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 15, 2016, 11:16:48 pm
They made an exception for Lichtenstein on free movement.
I didn't know about that but maybe it has something to do with Lichtenstein having a population of less than 37000?
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MT on July 15, 2016, 11:20:36 pm
You were flying a Portuguese flag. I see you have changed to another flag of convenience now. I'm obviously too easily confused.
Not just for convenience now, have been flying all kind of flags , can be used to relieve certain folks preconceptions about other nationality's.
Like the ability to only drink beer with zee Germans while proposing English is a superior culture!  ;)

Seams Turkey jets is shooting down Turkey helicopters, while bombing police headquarters! Ah, well Turkey is well known for military coup's.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: doobedoobedo on July 15, 2016, 11:25:31 pm
They made an exception for Lichtenstein on free movement.
I didn't know about that but maybe it has something to do with Lichtenstein having a population of less than 37000?

What does that matter? It's the principle of the thing isn't it? Everyone should be able to move there - just cram 'em in!
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Macbeth on July 15, 2016, 11:28:06 pm
... once the UK inevitably ask to join again they will loose all the special deals and rebate that was rather unfair to everyone else.  O0 :-DD

Loose? like "let them loose" or "go off like a loose cannon!" - yeah, I agree the EU will try their best to get us to re-join, desperately firing off honey sweetened deals and letting loose all those deals that are unfair to everyone else. But this lady is not for turning!

As for losing, we haven't lost a war yet. This is just a paper tiger war with EU mandarins.

We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender!  :-DD  ;)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on July 15, 2016, 11:46:02 pm
One sentence as if that is ok. You and your country are in denial, the USA related death by firearms for countries is top 10 in the world, you are in the same league as Panama, Urugay and the likes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
You think that is overreacting? The response to 911 was overreacting by a huge scale, only 3500 deaths and the whole country has changed to intolerate, frightened and paranoid people, unfortunately.
Do the math and see how many people are killed by your own people each year and compare that to terrorist death related incidents, now what should have higher priority hmmmmm

What am I in denial about, exactly?

You're making the "more people die from guns than terrorism" retort, except I never made the counter-claim, so I am not sure how your post relates to anything I said?

As for the absolute # of people killed by guns in the USA - yes, we have more gun deaths than Europe.  That's because guns are legal here and widely available.  But that is only a small part of the reason.  We also have a very mixed society, much more so than many other countries.  You're also counting suicides, which is disingenuous when making a point about gun violence (unless the claim is that we should be afraid of ourselves).


Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 15, 2016, 11:59:53 pm
What am I in denial about, exactly?

You're making the "more people die from guns than terrorism" retort, except I never made the counter-claim, so I am not sure how your post relates to anything I said?

As for the absolute # of people killed by guns in the USA - yes, we have more gun deaths than Europe.  That's because guns are legal here and widely available.  But that is only a small part of the reason.  We also have a very mixed society, much more so than many other countries.  You're also counting suicides, which is disingenuous when making a point about gun violence (unless the claim is that we should be afraid of ourselves).

It is reasonable to include the suicides, because in a relatively gun free country. There is a degree of difficulty, work and time delay involved, if one was to try and perform it in e.g. The UK.
Sometimes (but rarely, fortunately) a relatively normal person has a lot of bad things happen, and they begin to feel suicidal. In the UK, the difficulty (and time delay), in sorting that out, hopefully contributes, to people in general not committing suicide.

But in the US, it is considered way too easy, for an upset individual, having a really bad day, to just grab their gun, point it at their head, and press the trigger.

But I agree, that in strict violence and crime terms, including those figures messes up the balance. I.e. Is somewhat misleading.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on July 16, 2016, 12:19:03 am
No, what I wanted to say was: if everyone wants autonomy by themselves and no democratic cooperation the result is less stability. It is true that bigger entities are no guarantees for peace, nor do I think unions or large countries have value in itself. But I believe that cooperation in a democratic way on larger geographic scales are necessary to solve many problems humanity is facing. EU is a way for the European countries to cooperate peacefully, and everyone in the union profits from it.

I think your words sound correct and logical from an intellectual standpoint, but I think the reality tells a different story.  It's difficult to categorize the things that make a group of people want to form their own country.  Race, geography, culture, economics, social structure, history and many other things factor into it.  When groups are forced to be together when they don't want to be - that is what leads to wars.  I certainly don't think there have been any conflicts which would otherwise have occurred in Europe that didn't because of the EU, and I can think of a lot of bad-blood and ill-will that has been created due to the EU.  Hopefully it will never precipitate into war, but time will tell.

Quote
It is obvious that all those who are in favor of the EU also think it will last more than a few years, is it not?

Your definition of "the test of time" is "more than a few years"?  Do you think the EU will still exist in 500 years?  I don't think so.  But 500 years would be a pretty short lifespan for most countries and most empires.  Frankly, I don't think anyone involved in the EU gives any thought to how long it will last, nor should they.  Doing something on the basis of "it will still be around a long time from now" isn't a good reason.  It was politically expedient (and in some ways economically expedient) for the EU to be created, which is why it was.  It is also showing cracks which, IMO, will ultimately (and soon) prove fatal.

Quote
There are also numerous small individual nations that didn't last. And there are heterogeneous empires that did, like China. The US and EU are not the same but the US have been a union far longer and it's a union of a different kind. From what I know the US isn't that homogeneous either.

Yes, there are individual nations that didn't last.  But there are some that did.  There are no empires that lasted even close to as long as many individual nations have lasted.  And I don't think China is a good example of an empire that prevented war breaking out between member states.  The history of China is littered with conflict - and it continues today (Tibet, Taiwan, Korea, etc).
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on July 16, 2016, 12:26:14 am
Sorry but I have to strongly disagree with that. I'm not religious myself but I don't see any mainstream religion in itself as evil.

I don't see how you could see any of the top few religions as anything OTHER than evil?

Evil is defined as immoral and malevolent.  The only way (for example) christianity, judaism or islam could possibly be considered anything other than evil is if one uses the "get out of jail free" card of claiming the instructions given in these religions' texts are metaphorical, or outdated and not intended to be taken literally anymore.

But that is a giant erroneous leap of logic, considering that the texts themselves are very clear about what one is to do in certain situations, and those things commanded are, by definition, evil.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on July 16, 2016, 12:31:57 am
It was the same in the middle ages here, if you were an atheist you would have been tortured to death. Christian mobs burned down the library of Alexandria, burned mathematical books and other heathen devilish nonsense. They also liked to burn people, witches and scientist like poor Galileo. And the church didn't admit the Galileo sentence was a mistake until 1992. :palm:

Europe went through The Enlightenment.  That was a result of social, cultural and technological advancement of the time.  That phenomenon has not occurred throughout the muslim world, despite the fruits of enlightenment (higher standard of living, more rapid technical advancement, and many more) being clearly obvious and available to all the world. 

So I don't think there's any certainty that immersion in European culture will lead to softening of radical views.  In fact, there's apparently a substantial amount of data that suggests second generations are more radical then first generations.  One thing about the USA is that while we celebrate our diversity, people pretty rapidly assimilate into American culture.  The same isn't true of Europe - certainly not to the extent that it happens in the US.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on July 16, 2016, 12:35:06 am
No, only refugees with a valid reason for asylum are allowed to stay, everyone else are deported. No country in the world consider poverty a valid reason for asylum. They have valid reasons of asylum because of the Iraq war and the civil wars that followed.

Apologies to forum members if I am spam-replying to this thread (haven't had time last few days to catch up), but apis, isn't the problem with the refugees that they claim to be from war-torn countries or the victims of repression?  And they throw away their documents, making it impossible to know where they are actually from - hence making it impossible to legally deport them, no?

That is the problem, IMO.  If you look at the number of refugees from Syria or Iraq, it is a very small minority of the number of refugees.  And Europe is paying a high price by being too nice and too liberal/socialist on their rules that makes them forced to take these people.  AFAIK, arab countries have only accepted a tiny minority of these people, and most countries have refused to take any at all. 
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Corporate666 on July 16, 2016, 12:47:56 am
And for my last post of the day in this thread :)

So now there is a military coup in Turkey.

Turkey.

 :-DD

Now, Turkey is not an EU member, but they are about as close as it gets without being one.  They are an OECD member, a member of the Council of Europe, they are part of a limited trade union with the EU, and are a candidate for full EU membership - and they are pretty close to formalizing full membership in the Shcengen zone, allowing free travel for Turkish citizens to other schengen countries.   :palm:

And the issues that are currently holding up their full membership aren't based on a dysfunctional political system - but rather things like recognition of the Armenian genocide, the fact that the Greeks generally dislike them (mostly over Cyprus).  But IMO Turkey is (was?) well on their way to full EU membership, and I am sure political correctness would probably ensure they would not be required to conform to western standards of democracy like, oh, NOT imprisoning people for criticizing the government, or making blasphemy illegal.

I can't think of many other indicators of how far off course the EU is than the fact that Britain is leaving, and one of their up-and-coming prospects is in the midst of a military coup.  :-DD
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on July 16, 2016, 02:55:54 am
The solution is to crush ISIS as soon as possible!  >:(

Not really,
even if you could, the number of people they kill is insignificant compared to the number of people who die in car crashes.

If you need to identify the real enemy, here's a clue:

You opened your doors to wolves, you invited butchers into your house, for decades, under multiculturalism. And political correctness.

Mariusz Blaszczak, commenting on the Nice attack:

"...a result of years of multi-cultural policies and political correctness.
We don’t have such problems. We don’t have districts where law other than Polish law reigns. We don’t have no-go zones for police”


 :-+

Jo Cox was really a grotesque example of all that is wrong with politics. A wonderful young women, either completely out of touch with her electorate or intentionally not representing them.

Actually it's too easy to blame muslims for everything, what else can we expect from a 3rd world medieval religion - but she was the real enemy within, the 5th column undermining our political system - those that hold up banners welcoming immigrants, but then they are nowhere to be seen when the killing starts. Those that celebrate equality but turn a blind eye when the raping starts, or unbelievably lie about it when raped themselves. The "progressive" Left repeatedly cover up basic facts about the problem with a whitewash of censorship via character assassination.

But crime rates are not higher in Malmö than other cities, sex related or otherwise. It's only xenophobes and racists that would say the city is ruined because they want a racially/ethnically pure country.

 :scared:

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/09/18/interview-retired-swedish-police-chief-says-malmo-crime-skyrocketing-due-uncontrolled-immigration-no-go-zones/ (http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/09/18/interview-retired-swedish-police-chief-says-malmo-crime-skyrocketing-due-uncontrolled-immigration-no-go-zones/)

"amount of crimes committed [in Malmo] has increased out of all proportion"


Just out of interest, comparing Malmo with the equally diverse city of London
http://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Sweden&country2=United+Kingdom&city1=Malmo&city2=London (http://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Sweden&country2=United+Kingdom&city1=Malmo&city2=London)
and Malmo comes off worst (and to me, all of London is a no go zone)

Or bizarrely compare it against Mogadishu in Somalia,
http://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Sweden&country2=Somalia&city1=Malmo&city2=Mogadishu (http://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Sweden&country2=Somalia&city1=Malmo&city2=Mogadishu)

Not only are the Somalians less worried about crime, but you are only slightly less likely to get mugged at night in Malmo.  :palm:


The "progressive" Left not only creates the domestic terrorist problem in the first place (invite millions to come, shove them into ghettos and then fail to create jobs, "but we are your friends, please vote for us"), but then prevent any action to tackle the root problem by handing that community a free get-out-of-jail card ("It's nothing to do with Islam")  :palm:

That line is growing kinda stale now, don't you think?

Of course it is a multifaceted problem, poverty, inbreeding, education and a homophobic, misogynistic, medieval culture all tie up with a totalitarian regressive religion to create a basic compatibility with Western democracy.
It's now time to finally ignore the "progressive" Left screaming "racist" at everyone, accept that this problem does obviously lie within islam, and stop pretending we have any moral reason left to pander to that culture.

Poland is safe, Hungary is safe  - and the sole reason they are safe is that they have preserved a religious and ethnically homogeneous society, and have not been bullied into accepting the EU's failed Marxist social experiment in enforced diversity.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 16, 2016, 03:27:57 am
Anyway, cats are awesome.
Finally something I can agree with! ;D

Great! Just use common sense which and how many of them you let invade your home. They can drag your entire household down and danger the neighborhood.  ;-)

(http://i40.tinypic.com/vhw6ea.gif)

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 16, 2016, 06:54:00 am
Anyway, cats are awesome.
Finally something I can agree with! ;D

Great! Just use common sense which and how many of them you let invade your home. They can drag your entire household down and danger the neighborhood.  ;-)

(http://i40.tinypic.com/vhw6ea.gif)



I have two kittens, and that's my quota used up :)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 16, 2016, 06:58:17 am
Sorry but I have to strongly disagree with that. I'm not religious myself but I don't see any mainstream religion in itself as evil.

I don't see how you could see any of the top few religions as anything OTHER than evil?

Evil is defined as immoral and malevolent.  The only way (for example) christianity, judaism or islam could possibly be considered anything other than evil is if one uses the "get out of jail free" card of claiming the instructions given in these religions' texts are metaphorical, or outdated and not intended to be taken literally anymore.

But that is a giant erroneous leap of logic, considering that the texts themselves are very clear about what one is to do in certain situations, and those things commanded are, by definition, evil.

Just look at some of the weired shit the yanks come up with. I hate religion, it is controlling and and does no one any good but for those incapable of controlling their lives for themselves although I'm sure there is an alternative.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on July 16, 2016, 06:59:02 am



Jo Cox was really a grotesque example of all that is wrong with politics. A wonderful young women, either completely out of touch with her electorate or intentionally not representing them.

Actually it's too easy to blame muslims for everything, what else can we expect from a 3rd world medieval religion - but she was the real enemy within, the 5th column undermining our political system - those that hold up banners welcoming immigrants, but then they are nowhere to be seen when the killing starts. Those that celebrate equality but turn a blind eye when the raping starts, or unbelievably lie about it when raped themselves. The "progressive" Left repeatedly cover up basic facts about the problem with a whitewash of censorship via character assassination.


:palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:

(http://)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 16, 2016, 07:01:13 am
but there was no excuse for her killing. We don't have much of a left wing movement in our government. Any openess to immigration is probably from the right that like cheap labour in their businesses.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Tepe on July 16, 2016, 07:47:20 am
Referendums no, but general elections are conceivable way to make it happen. That is to be avoided if at all possible, hence... see my previous comments.
It isn't so easy to get large shifts in the not first-past-the-post voting systems, i.e., all the other EU countries. So I don't think that is likely to happen at all.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 16, 2016, 07:49:25 am
but there was no excuse for her killing. We don't have much of a left wing movement in our government. Any openess to immigration is probably from the right that like cheap labour in their businesses.

There is a right and wrong way of doing things.

{Right} He (the killer) should/could of persuaded people in his constituency to vote for someone else, by creating sensible arguments. He also could have discussed his issue(s) with her, at that very political surgery meeting place.
He could have even put himself forward as the next candidate for their MP.

{Wrong} It is up to the hundreds of thousands (I'm not sure how many there are there) to decide who gets voted in to be their MP. Not up to one mad/bad killer, to decide for everyone else.

The most I would have readily accepted, was for him to create a large protest banner, explaining his concerns, and for him to display it somewhere.
What he actually did was outrageous.

Maybe he was too ill (mentally), and that was the overall issue.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 16, 2016, 07:52:45 am
I think he was a combination of ill and radialized, it's not just Muslims that become radialized and commit acts of extremism. I really have heard a lot of tosh from people who can't be bothered to be open minded.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rollatorwieltje on July 16, 2016, 08:30:38 am
And for my last post of the day in this thread :)

So now there is a military coup in Turkey.

Turkey.

 :-DD

Now, Turkey is not an EU member, but they are about as close as it gets without being one.  They are an OECD member, a member of the Council of Europe, they are part of a limited trade union with the EU, and are a candidate for full EU membership - and they are pretty close to formalizing full membership in the Shcengen zone, allowing free travel for Turkish citizens to other schengen countries.   :palm:

And the issues that are currently holding up their full membership aren't based on a dysfunctional political system - but rather things like recognition of the Armenian genocide, the fact that the Greeks generally dislike them (mostly over Cyprus).  But IMO Turkey is (was?) well on their way to full EU membership, and I am sure political correctness would probably ensure they would not be required to conform to western standards of democracy like, oh, NOT imprisoning people for criticizing the government, or making blasphemy illegal.

I can't think of many other indicators of how far off course the EU is than the fact that Britain is leaving, and one of their up-and-coming prospects is in the midst of a military coup.  :-DD
Turkey was underway to become an EU member until Erdogan came into power. After that, not so much.

Essentially Turkey has now voted a TEXIT. The military gave the people the option today to vote for "Ataturk" or Erdogan. The public has voted, the public has chosen Erdoghan (by not supporting the military). That's pretty much the end of modern Turkey. Back to the middle ages for them. Pretty sure the Turkish government will now remove all power from the military, which was the only sparkle of hope for a secular modern Turkey.

Quite sad, I have many colleagues in Turkey. Seems again a case of the modern educated youth being oppressed by their uneducated backward family.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: jancumps on July 16, 2016, 09:03:42 am
I don't think that an army that does coups is a sparkle of hope for anything.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Marco on July 16, 2016, 10:01:49 am
We don't have much of a left wing movement in our government. Any openess to immigration is probably from the right that like cheap labour in their businesses.

Historically it was the right which encouraged guest labors and the worker parties which opposed it. It's seems to have shifted now, now neither of the UK's relevant parties seems to represent people who want no further mass immigration (ie. the majority, today and historically).

Certainly none of the existing parties were willing to make a true stand in that regard in my country, just screw around in the margins and not touch the holy EU freedom of movement and the even holier Geneva convention on refugees and Human Rights treaties (which will be binned at some point when the whole of Africa moves north).
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: Simon on July 16, 2016, 10:10:32 am
Well as I said before. Freedom of movement as intended when it was introduced is not what it has become.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: rollatorwieltje on July 16, 2016, 10:13:56 am
I don't think that an army that does coups is a sparkle of hope for anything.

It helps to get rid of undemocratic dictators. Erdogan is actively trying to silence the opposition and has control over all the media in the country. Limiting free speech is undermining democracy. The military realized there was a threat to the country and acted on it. They did it several times already, it's not new. It's sketchy, but so is removing democratic mechanisms in a republic.

Note, I'm not saying everything Ataturk did was great, but declaring Turkey a secular republic pulled it from the middle ages into a modern country. Realize this happened in the 1920s.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 16, 2016, 11:26:07 am
Jo Cox was really a grotesque example of all that is wrong with politics. A wonderful young women, either completely out of touch with her electorate or intentionally not representing them.

Actually it's too easy to blame muslims for everything, what else can we expect from a 3rd world medieval religion - but she was the real enemy within, the 5th column undermining our political system - those that hold up banners welcoming immigrants, but then they are nowhere to be seen when the killing starts. Those that celebrate equality but turn a blind eye when the raping starts, or unbelievably lie about it when raped themselves. The "progressive" Left repeatedly cover up basic facts about the problem with a whitewash of censorship via character assassination.
:palm: :palm: :palm:
No. The problem are the fascists, racists and islamists.

She was murdered by a right wing idiot, but he could just as well have been a member of ISIS. That is their goal: to tear up europe from the inside. Why do you think putin are sponsoring the radical right in Europe? Hint: KGB used to call them useful idiots.

But crime rates are not higher in Malmö than other cities, sex related or otherwise. It's only xenophobes and racists that would say the city is ruined because they want a racially/ethnically pure country.

:scared:

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/09/18/interview-retired-swedish-police-chief-says-malmo-crime-skyrocketing-due-uncontrolled-immigration-no-go-zones/ (http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/09/18/interview-retired-swedish-police-chief-says-malmo-crime-skyrocketing-due-uncontrolled-immigration-no-go-zones/)

"amount of crimes committed [in Malmo] has increased out of all proportion"


Just out of interest, comparing Malmo with the equally diverse city of London
http://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Sweden&country2=United+Kingdom&city1=Malmo&city2=London (http://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Sweden&country2=United+Kingdom&city1=Malmo&city2=London)
and Malmo comes off worst (and to me, all of London is a no go zone)

Or bizarrely compare it against Mogadishu in Somalia,
http://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Sweden&country2=Somalia&city1=Malmo&city2=Mogadishu (http://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Sweden&country2=Somalia&city1=Malmo&city2=Mogadishu)

Not only are the Somalians less worried about crime, but you are only slightly less likely to get mugged at night in Malmo.  :palm:
You need to focus more on source criticism.

What is 'numbeo'? Do you honestly believe crime rate in malmö is higher than in mogadishu or london. :palm: :palm:  Breitbart :palm:.

The fact that some people lie like this, about what it's like in malmö and other places, scare me just as much as ISIS. It is such things that trigger people like the insane guy (terrorist?) who murdered Jo Cox.

I live near malmö, I visit malmö every week. I read the local newspapers. I read the statistics. Sweden have the best freedom of information act in the world; government can't hide statistics here. Crime rate in malmö is not higher than other cities in sweden. And in fact, criminal violence in sweden have been declining steadily since the nineties.

I could dig up the real figures for you, but the really big question is: what does this have to do with Brexit?  :-//
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 16, 2016, 11:34:58 am
We don't have much of a left wing movement in our government. Any openess to immigration is probably from the right that like cheap labour in their businesses.
Historically it was the right which encouraged guest labors and the worker parties which opposed it. It's seems to have shifted now, now neither of the UK's relevant parties seems to represent people who want no further mass immigration (ie. the majority, today and historically).
The right wants free movement of labor in the entire world and no social welfare! Many countries allow "worker immigration" or whatever the English term is.

Europe's problem recently have been how to deal with refugees from the Iraq war and its consequences. No one asked for it, it's just that there are millions of people fleeing from afghanistan, iraq, syria and somalia now. Most of them are staying in refugee camps in the neighboring countries but there have been a steady trickle of refugees who have found their way into europe and seek asylum here. The left (and most of the right) in Europe are simply trying to deal with the problems the right in the US/UK have created by invading Iraq.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: zapta on July 16, 2016, 01:04:27 pm
The right wants free movement of labor in the entire world ...

You just made this up.

Europe's problem recently have been how to deal with refugees from the Iraq war and its consequences. No one asked for it, it's just that there are millions of people fleeing from afghanistan, iraq, syria and somalia now.

Europe problem recently is that it's naive, weak, and doesn't protects it's borders.

No one asked for it,

Of course you asked for it, by your policies that invite an invasion.

but there have been a steady trickle of refugees who have found their way into europe ..

s/trickle/flood/

s/found their way/forced their way/.

It's your naïveté and policies that will destroy your culture and playing the choice-less victim will get you nowhere.

That's my 2c. Good luck. ;-)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: dannyf on July 16, 2016, 01:24:22 pm
what's happening in europe is a genocide.

You will understand that in 2030, or 2050. But it will be too late.

Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 16, 2016, 01:55:27 pm
It's your naïveté and policies that will destroy your culture and playing the choice-less victim will get you nowhere.
You obviously have no idea what our culture is or our history. Culture isn't something static, it is always changing, always have, always will. The fact that we have a few percent refugees from the middle east in Europe now will not hurt us. Europe is not the victim, the middle east is, the EU is simply trying to cope with the humanitarian disaster that the UK/US created there (that most of Europe was against). We have plenty of choices, and the EU is definitely the best way forward; Europe needs to stick together and cooperate, not let fascists, Islamist or other enemies of Europe and the enlightenment ideals tear us apart.

That's my 2c. Good luck. ;-)
Thanks, but luck got nothing to do with it.

Obviously, a united Europe is making certain people pee in their pants out of fear; but it's going to happen whether you like it or not, with or without the UK. ;)
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on July 16, 2016, 02:01:47 pm
:palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:
Wow you got me there, that's the most devastating comeback in this debate so far - I've got nothing...

but there was no excuse for her killing.

I'm not suggesting one, I'm pointing out that she represented a cynical force within politics that will blindly pander any minority in order to stay in power, that maintains a concept of victimhood so they can be the "solution", yet turn a blind eye to all the moral conundrums that throws up - LGBT or Islam, entirely incompatible in real life except in the LaLa land of the Left. Ergo, they cynically use both groups to gain votes and hope they never have to deal with the inevitable fallout like Orlando.

There is a right and wrong way of doing things.
Maybe he was too ill (mentally), and that was the overall issue.

It's just as likely she was killed out of hatred for all that she represents, he simply lacked any moral or legal legitimacy for that action (and in that sense, wrong). But if her own constitutionality voted against her then his action was essentially politically expedient.

Conflating killing and mental illness doesn't really do the mentally ill a service, ISIS are not mentally ill because in our society we don't accept that a religious belief is a mental illness. Governments have ordered the killing of millions in order to secure land, ISIS does the same in order to secure a caliphate - both parties are working towards their political aims and both parties require sane military personnel to achieve them.


Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: MK14 on July 16, 2016, 02:16:23 pm
There is a right and wrong way of doing things.
Maybe he was too ill (mentally), and that was the overall issue.

It's just as likely she was killed out of hatred for all that she represents, he simply lacked any moral or legal legitimacy for that action (and in that sense, wrong). But if her own constitutionality voted against her then his action was essentially politically expedient.

Conflating killing and mental illness doesn't really do the mentally ill a service, ISIS are not mentally ill because in our society we don't accept that a religious belief is a mental illness. Governments have ordered the killing of millions in order to secure land, ISIS does the same in order to secure a caliphate - both parties are working towards their political aims and both parties require sane military personnel to achieve them.

That makes sense, I agree.

I think calling such people mentally ill, just makes it easier for me (and maybe others), to cope with the horrible things such people do. The analysis of a person like that, into good:bad, Normal:Mentally ill, Good Upbringing:Bad upbringing etc. Can get very complicated.

Some people wonder if, such people could have "controlled" their issues, and stopped themselves from doing bad things. Even if they are mentally ill, etc. I.e. Were they truly bad or good.

Maybe the laws should have been written, so that people can't vote, if they have emigrated here, for ten years. To stop political parties bringing in people, just so their party can gain more votes, even if it may terribly harm the future of that country.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: apis on July 16, 2016, 02:22:10 pm
ISIS are not mentally ill because in our society we don't accept that a religious belief is a mental illness. Governments have ordered the killing of millions in order to secure land, ISIS does the same in order to secure a caliphate - both parties are working towards their political aims and both parties require sane military personnel to achieve them.
ISIS goal is to retake control of Iraq, it's an operation started by former friends of Saddam. They don't give a shit about any caliphate they just want power back no matter what the cost, and they've got nothing to loose and everything to win.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: vodka on July 16, 2016, 02:29:10 pm
The fact that we have a few percent refugees from the middle east in Europe now will not hurt us. Europe is not the victim, the middle east is, the EU is simply trying to cope with the humanitarian disaster that the UK/US created there (that most of Europe was against).

Yes , they will have hurt us . The sweden tie the dogs with sausages  and you have the luxury for openning  the gates for all the  hunger death of the world, that will be your problem.
But and other countries where there are a  unnoficial jobless from 6 Millions of people , and the Social Security are emptying every year , we are unable of stop it.
You as want that we charge with more people if we are unable with the our.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: bitslice on July 16, 2016, 02:36:45 pm
No. The problem are the fascists, racists and islamists.
Source?
Quote
She was murdered by a right wing idiot,
She was a Hard Left wing idiot, a political sacrifice was made.
Quote
a member of ISIS. That is their goal: to tear up europe from the inside.
We tore up all of the Middle East, I'd imagine they'd consider this quid pro quo


Quote
Why do you think putin are sponsoring the radical right in Europe? Hint: KGB used to call them useful idiots.
That term is only ever applied to Liberals, so I'd have to agree with you.
Why shouldn't Putin undermine the EU? The EU is applying sanctions against them for retaking Ukraine, a country that is ethnically Russian...

Quote
What is 'numbeo'?
http://www.numbeo.com/common/about.jsp (http://www.numbeo.com/common/about.jsp)
"This website was mentioned or used as a source by many international newspapers and magazines including BBC, Time, The Week, Forbes, The Economist, Business Insider, San Francisco Chronicle, New York Times, The Telegraph, The Age, The Sydney Morning Herald, China Daily, The Washington Post, USA Today and dozens more"

So, is that OK for you?

Quote
Do you honestly believe

I'm merely providing statistics from a reputable source and if that's what they say, then it's probably so.
You have provided nothing for anything you say. Merely "well I live nearby, so I'm an expert"


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Sweden have the best freedom of information act in the world; government can't hide statistics here.

LOL
"Code 291 -- and this is in all the Swedish newspapers now -- the police were told to cover up any crime related to the refugees. Do not tell the media. Do not leave a paper trail," Swedish policy analyst Tino Sanandaji

There are apparently 25-30 reports on immigrant crime statistics, only 2 are reported in the media. Funny that.

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Crime rate in malmö is not higher than other cities in sweden.

If you keep crying foul without providing anything to back up your point, then I'm going to keep proving you wrong.
http://www.nordstjernan.com/news/education%7Cresearch/4539/ (http://www.nordstjernan.com/news/education%7Cresearch/4539/)

"list of the most crime-infested areas in Sweden (the number of crimes reported per 100,000 inhabitants):
1. Stockholm
2. Sigtuna
3. Malmö "


Do you want me to point out the top three cities for muslim immigration, or will you finally concede the point? Hint: it's Stockholm, Sigtuna and Malmö...

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what does this have to do with Brexit? 

Because Germany demanded that all countries start taking in what would inevitably be millions of muslims, and that Turkey was going to be given free visas.

And then we looked at the shithole that Sweden has become...  :scared:  :scared:  :scared:

That's a reason for Brexit in a paragraph (not the only one, but mass immigration of muslims has been a #1 topic in the UK since before the last general election).


Leading on from Brexit, is how all political parties are going to deal with this. Corbyn is an "open border" mentalist, it remains to be seen how May will fudge this.
Title: Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
Post by: EEVblog on July 16, 2016, 02:41:40 pm
Sorry to spoil the fun here, but this topic has just cracked the Top 10 list of topics in the public stats. I don't want that to happen for off-topic stuff, it makes the forum look bad.
So the thread is now locked.