Poll

So, what you (UK) guys think? Exit or not to exit?

YES, please get me out of there (I'm UK) [go]
41 (19.5%)
Hell no, we are one big (happy) family! (I'm UK) [stay]
42 (20%)
OMG, let them Go! [go]
63 (30%)
I love the UK, they are family! [stay]
64 (30.5%)

Total Members Voted: 208

Voting closed: July 10, 2016, 10:29:34 am

Author Topic: UK forum members, BREXIT?  (Read 347056 times)

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Offline Marco

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2016, 08:43:08 pm »
Within Europe there is no alternative to the status quo, yet the status quo is untenable. Refugee streams measurable in high 9 figures are bearing down on us in the near future, yet human rights and refugee conventions are given a status higher than the bible.

If the status quo doesn't change soon there are two ways forward for the EU, annihilation of its entire cultural fabric or civil war. Get out of the EU's status quo before that choice is forced upon you.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 08:44:54 pm by Marco »
 
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Offline Towger

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2016, 08:54:01 pm »



If I were a Brit, I think I'd be voting to exit.

You don't have to be British to have a vote. Due to a quirk in the law, a numbers of ex empire nationalities living in the UK can also vote in the referendum.
 

Offline Nozzer

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2016, 08:59:47 pm »
I'm in favour of remaining in the EU and working to reform it. It would have been easier to make reforms had the Conservative Party not decided to leave the mainstream conservative grouping in the EU and join the ultra right-wing bloc that has no real influence.

Most of the EU bureaucracy, apart from a relatively small number of permenant Eurocrats, are in fact civil servants from member states on secondment. In my old workplace opportunities arose to volunteer for a fortnight (deducted from one's annual leave) to work. Long hours (10 hour days) hard work, living in a hotel, but it was well rewarded and interesting.

I should point out that if we leave we will not have access to the Single European Market unless we accept the conditions that are attached in EU law to those (tariff free) trading privileges. Norway can trade with the EU through the SEM only by transposing EU law and regulations into her domestic law and by allowing unrestricted immigration. In Norway's case the immigration is coming from Russia through Northern Norway. So in fact we would get the worse of both worlds. We would have to transpose EU law into domestic law whilst having no power to alter it as we would as an EU member.

For more information you might like to read the UK Parliament's reading material produced by the House of Commons Library, on the issues regarding the EU referendum.

http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/research/eu-referendum/

You can also get further information from the House of Commons Enquiry Service through the link:
http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/offices/commons/hcio/contact-us/
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 09:02:11 pm by Nozzer »
 

Offline bitslice

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2016, 09:06:45 pm »
"If the qualified politicians, economists etc. elected to run the country full-time can't agree on what's best, then how am I supposed to decide objectively

Politicians appear to be looking to their own self interest - a Conservative agenda benefits by lowering wages and a Labour agenda benefits by having a new generation of a disenfranchised underclass to vote for it.

If a population repeatedly declares that immigration is of primary concern and a London political elite repeatedly looks the other way and refuses to discuss it, then I don't feel responsible if my own half-arsed opinions contribute to an exit vote.

The day after is going to be interesting, if a vote to remain wins the day then conspiracy theorists are going to be foaming at the mouth at all the back stage fixing that's gone on, and 50% of the population is going to be looking for ways to punish any pro-EU politician for screwing them over. And every EU bureaucrat is going to hate the UK even more for daring to resist their new dystopian Reich.
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2016, 09:14:04 pm »
Quote
and 50% of the population is going to be looking for ways to punish any pro-EU politician for screwing them over.

That's the problem with any democracy: at any given point, roughly 50% of the population is unhappy about the outcome.

Here is a solution that will make 100% of the people happy: split the country. The leave people go to their half that has nothing with the EU, and the remain people go to their half that is as tightly married to the EU as much as they want.

everyone is happy.
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Offline bitslice

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2016, 09:18:49 pm »
Here is a solution that will make 100% of the people happy: split the country. The leave people go to their half that has nothing with the EU, and the remain people go to their half that is as tightly married to the EU as much as they want.

That's already happening over other issues, I gather the population of the East End of London is slowly decamping to Essex.


Really the EU is a great idea run by idiots - everyone wants an easy way to trade with other nations, nobody wants to import another countries rapists.
Why do we have to do both?

I'm sure the Victorians of the Industrial age didn't amass all that wealth just so some smug Liberal Progressive from Goldsmiths could give it all away to improve the life expectations of 1 million goat herders
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 09:24:10 pm by bitslice »
 
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Offline razberik

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2016, 09:52:18 pm »
Really the EU is a great idea run by idiots
Speaks for everything. I believe that many speakers for leaving doesn't really want to abandon Europe, they only want to punch incompetent leaders in face "Come on, wake up ! We have voted for leaving ! Do something !".
 

Offline RGB255_0_0

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2016, 10:04:12 pm »
Here is a solution that will make 100% of the people happy: split the country. The leave people go to their half that has nothing with the EU, and the remain people go to their half that is as tightly married to the EU as much as they want.

That's already happening over other issues, I gather the population of the East End of London is slowly decamping to Essex.


Really the EU is a great idea run by idiots - everyone wants an easy way to trade with other nations, nobody wants to import another countries rapists.
Why do we have to do both?

I'm sure the Victorians of the Industrial age didn't amass all that wealth just so some smug Liberal Progressive from Goldsmiths could give it all away to improve the life expectations of 1 million goat herders
No, they amassed their wealth through exploitation and pillaging, among others.

I think leaving the EU will shock a hell of a lot of vote leavers, especially when they lose their job as the business ups sticks because their revenue was generated predominantly from the continent; as well as having to work with the Norwegian or Swiss models, which are even more broken than it is currently for us.

The people here are not going to get kicked out and sent home. Your kids aren't suddenly going to get their place at the local grammar school.

Waiting lists will be just as bad as they are now (and how they were in the late 90s). Countries can force us to pay for visas and push up the yearly visit to the Greek islands or what have you.

House prices were booming long before Poland joined the EU. Birth rates in the UK were falling and we'd have been in a similar situation as Japan, Germany and China - much worse than it is now.

I think the vote is more a utopian view if what we think will be resolved by leaving (or staying) rather than actually thinking logically and reasonably about it.

What we have found out is how many power hungry politicians there are like Boris J and Michael G who are basically making this about them versus Cameron in a popularity and bragging rights contest.
Your toaster just set fire to an African child over TCP.
 

Offline MT

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2016, 10:07:45 pm »
If UK exit Putin will have a bottle of champagne with Lavrov and the Scott's and Welch will reelect for an UK exit and left standing holding the bags will be England..
 

Offline Bud

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2016, 10:08:12 pm »
I recall there was life before EU.
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 
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Offline grumpydoc

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2016, 10:19:47 pm »
I recall there was life before EU.
There was - I remember the '70's. Back then random power cuts were an adventure and I loved my dad getting out the old style polished brass paraffin lamps and lighting them up. Especially when we had to put a new filament in as that meant burning off the protective coating which was always spectacular.

That sort of thing excites when you are 10; not so much these days.

The UK in the 70's was a mess. Per capita income had fallen by 25% compared with Germany & France over the post war period - odd when Germany was the "loser" and France had been invaded.

Now I'm not suggesting that it was all to do with the EU but the UK's economic performance has been hugely better in the 45 or so years we have been in the EU compared with the previous 25 after the war.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 10:36:56 pm by grumpydoc »
 
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Offline Marco

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2016, 10:41:04 pm »
If UK exit Putin will have a bottle of champagne

Why should we care? We are not at war with him. Ohh he took an Island with an important naval base and a near 100% ethnically Russian population and helped a Russian region in Georgia.

In the mean time we threw tons of money at the Ukraine to destabilize a government and subsequently coming very close to putting a bunch of genocidal neo-nazis into power. For what? To create a money pit the EU is somehow obligated to pour billions into year after year? (Mark my words, we will bail the IMF out in the Ukraine soon. My country's annoying little referendum delayed it a bit, but they will get the money train back on the rails. There is no alternative.)We bombed Lybia to hell and all the EU got out of it was a massive increase in boats with refugees. Our "allies" are a much bigger danger to us than Putin.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2016, 10:49:48 pm by Marco »
 
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Offline bitslice

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2016, 12:02:45 am »
No, they amassed their wealth through exploitation and pillaging, among others.

I don't see any Rhodes scholarships handing back the money.
Being racist to white waitresses, yes - handing back the money, no.

I'm personally quite glad that every country was busily exploiting someone, I'd hate to be the only country in the world where gender study parasites gleefully paraded their moral superiority over all the other war-mongers.
 

Offline rich

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2016, 12:21:10 am »
Quote
"If the qualified politicians, economists etc. elected to run the country full-time can't agree on what's best, then how am I supposed to decide objectively in my spare-time using soundbite propaganda uttered by both sides and delivered through biased media?

Doesn't sound you have a lot of confidence in  your own ability to decide for yourself.
You would be correct. It's easy to make a decision based on which personal biases are stroked by each side of the argument. I can even construct forward looking theories to support my decision and use future events to add to my confirmation bias. But long term, for the subsequent generations, how is even possible for the lay-person today to accurately assess and predict all interrelated variables to determine a 'best' future prediction. It just isn't. But largely it doesn't matter - In or out, the actions of successive governments will have a more direct and lasting impact.


There are a lot of research to suggest that the "uneducated" mass is pretty good at finding a good outcome for themselves without the "elites".

Check. 4 legs good 2 legs bad :) 


 

Offline nctnico

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #39 on: June 11, 2016, 12:28:56 am »
BUT if we want access to the common market we are likely to have to accept free movement of labour as well
That's a myth.  However unfortunately we don't have any negotiating power until we leave so it's pointless to predict the deal until we have some power back. 
Whatever the deal there is no reason to believe it will be what we have today or zero access, it will be something in between. 
Indeed Schäuble said today we won't get full access to the single market, but then again... he would say that.
Everything is negotiable but only if we are OUT
And what do you think to achieve? In the grand scheme of things (global economy) GB is just a small insignificant spec in the Atlantic ocean. That former Greek minister of finance had the same illusion about negotiating a deal on his terms. Look how well that ended.
Either way the EU is about creating a huge internal market which can serve as a self supporting economic eco system which is very resillient against crisis. The countries in the EU are too small to do that by themselves. I'm not saying it is perfect as it is now but the crisis from the recent years has shown what works and what doesn't. Also companies are getting bigger and may not be interested to adhering to local law at all (look at Microsoft, Apple, Dell, Google). A single country just doesn't stand a chance because their market makes just a few percent of the turnover of such big companies!
Edit: For example: Microsoft can afford to leave GB. Can GB afford for Microsoft to leave GB?

Within Europe there is no alternative to the status quo, yet the status quo is untenable. Refugee streams measurable in high 9 figures are bearing down on us in the near future, yet human rights and refugee conventions are given a status higher than the bible.
Did you ever care to look at the rate at which the population in the EU will be shrinking? Those refugees are very necessary to replenish the workforce! In the upcoming decades we'll be needing a lot more extra people. Shortly after WW2 there has been a surge in the number of people being born. This generation is now retiring. In the next 3 decades their offspring will be retiring as well.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 12:56:36 am by nctnico »
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Offline nctnico

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2016, 12:35:52 am »
The Netherlands are in trouble for all their business with Eastern Europe that made them a lot of money - is banned due to EU's Putin sanctions.
Not true. Only a few companies which specialised in trading with Russia where affected and you can argue these companies didn't spread their risk very well. The NL is still firmly the 2nd largest exporter of agricultural products despite the ban on export to Russia.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline MT

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2016, 12:59:17 am »
If UK exit Putin will have a bottle of champagne

Why should we care? We are not at war with him. Ohh he took an Island with an important naval base and a near 100% ethnically Russian population and helped a Russian region in Georgia.

We Who?I just mentioned a fact! Ooh, Putin shoot down a airliner full of Dutch people, why should you care/ be bothered by such a little pesky thing.. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36350520

Quote
In the mean time we threw tons of money at the Ukraine to destabilize a government and subsequently coming very close to putting a bunch of genocidal neo-nazis into power. For what? To create a money pit the EU is somehow obligated to pour billions into year after year? (Mark my words, we will bail the IMF out in the Ukraine soon. My country's annoying little referendum delayed it a bit, but they will get the money train back on the rails. There is no alternative.)We bombed Lybia to hell and all the EU got out of it was a massive increase in boats with refugees. Our "allies" are a much bigger danger to us than Putin.

The reason EU+ US bombed the pants of Gaddafi was because the dude was about to commit mass murder but WE then after his death deliberately forgot to seize all the European made armory we had sold to the sleazebag. Here the list for you to study:
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/mar/01/eu-arms-exports-libya

But heey, you might like Gaddafi since EU made a deal with the dude to stop immigrants from Africa..How sad that "WE" then bombed the shit out of the dude..

War in Ukraine are "big elephant politics" way above your ideas about neo natzi government, btw majority of those loose nazi cannons are integrated into the Ukraine army(how convenient). If you haven't noticed yet "fascism" is popular these days, both in us europe/us and surprise Russia! Yeah Putin is really a fascist if you look into what he says and his actions! How strange for a dude with sovjiet KGB background but with Russia nothing is impossible even civil war and if its going to be nasty and very dangerous, it's all west's fault as he like to say!
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 01:20:12 am by MT »
 

Offline Marco

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2016, 01:29:45 am »
Did you ever care to look at the rate at which the population in the EU will be shrinking? Those refugees are very necessary to replenish the workforce!

We aren't interchangeable. The big numbers won't even be Middle Easterners which come with at least some academic culture (severely held back through centuries of inbreeding and Islam unfortunately) but sub-Saharan Africans.

Quote
In the upcoming decades we'll be needing a lot more extra people.

We need a lot more solidarity, either solidarity to better spread the wealth generated through an increasingly automated economy. Dedicating a greater part of our resources to elderly care. Or solidarity to do that at the same time as trying to uplift a massive number of immigrants which won't significantly contribute to the economy for a generation (if ever).

The solidarity for the former is possible, the solidarity for the latter will be absent. White flight will gut western Europe if we go down the road we are on now. It will just be the immigrants and people who can't or won't move ... hopefully more like South Africa than Zimbabwe, but who knows. It won't be pretty at any rate.
 
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Offline Marco

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2016, 01:59:38 am »
Ooh, Putin shoot down a airliner full of Dutch people, why should you care/ be bothered by such a little pesky thing.

It was a warzone, shit happens.

Quote
The reason EU+ US bombed the pants of Gaddafi was because the dude was about to commit mass murder but WE then after his death deliberately forgot to seize all the European made armory we had sold to the sleazebag.

A sleazebag giving his citizens a remarkably high standard of living. Who was planning to change the distribution of oil wealth to direct payment to citizens, bypassing tribal councils. Which made some other sleazebags come for his head with a little nudging from foreign interests.

I'm sure by now most citizens would have rather Gadaffi had slaughtered the rebels (especially women).

Quote
But heey, you might like Gaddafi since EU made a deal with the dude to stop immigrants from Africa.

In the end he did it pretty cheaply too, sure his opening bid was ludicrous ... but that was just Gadaffi being Gadaffi, compared to Erdogan he was an excellent partner.

Quote
How sad that "WE" then bombed the shit out of the dude.

I don't want to put the blame on foreign nations when my own happily collaborated. Merkel fought more against the destruction of Libya than any of our leaders unfortunately.

Quote
War in Ukraine are "big elephant politics" way above your ideas about neo natzi government

Lets say the EU doesn't do its "duty" and dumps billions into Ukraine. With their next default it will become impossible for the IMF to give them more money. So a complete collapse into a failed state would be next, who is then going to take power?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 02:17:07 am by Marco »
 
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Offline zapta

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2016, 03:40:47 am »
But for a twice a week podcast on world news dissected - follow the "No Agenda" podcast. Fun as it gets and takes a stab at the established news media and takes what news media reports apart. After EEVBlog and AmpHour they are my favorite "broadcasters" at the moment.

Adam is American but was raised at gitmo nation lowlands, hence the frequent coverage of European issues. 

"In the morning."
Drain the swamp.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2016, 04:31:00 am »
Why should we care? We are not at war with him. Ohh he took an Island with an important naval base and a near 100% ethnically Russian population and helped a Russian region in Georgia.

In the mean time we threw tons of money at the Ukraine to destabilize a government and subsequently coming very close to putting a bunch of genocidal neo-nazis into power. For what? To create a money pit the EU is somehow obligated to pour billions into year after year? (Mark my words, we will bail the IMF out in the Ukraine soon. My country's annoying little referendum delayed it a bit, but they will get the money train back on the rails. There is no alternative.)We bombed Lybia to hell and all the EU got out of it was a massive increase in boats with refugees. Our "allies" are a much bigger danger to us than Putin.

How dare you challenge the Neocon narrative!  How else can we keep people in a state of fear, and give NATO and the MIC a reason to exist? We need constant war or the threat of war.  Herman Goering said it best:

Quote
Naturally the common people don't want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or fascist dictorship, or a parliament or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peace makers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country
 
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Online daqq

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2016, 05:05:56 am »
Quote
Did you ever care to look at the rate at which the population in the EU will be shrinking? Those refugees are very necessary to replenish the workforce! In the upcoming decades we'll be needing a lot more extra people.
Replenishing the population is needed, yes, but I doubt that the ONLY possible way is to import a bunch of culturally incompatible people with a mentality stuck a few centuries in the past. Are you quite sure that that's the only way?

I mean, somehow Europe has managed to NOT have a population decline in the past without resorting to steps that will effectively erase its culture and creating a future giant ghetto near every city. Maybe something else would work?
Believe it or not, pointy haired people do exist!
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Offline kaz911

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2016, 06:26:25 am »
But for a twice a week podcast on world news dissected - follow the "No Agenda" podcast. Fun as it gets and takes a stab at the established news media and takes what news media reports apart. After EEVBlog and AmpHour they are my favorite "broadcasters" at the moment.

Adam is American but was raised at gitmo nation lowlands, hence the frequent coverage of European issues. 

"In the morning."
And for those who have not listened yet - and needs a translation to "gitmo nation lowlands" - Adam Curry was raised in the Netherlands *G* and was MTV host and then did a tech startup. The other host - John C. Dvorak - is one of the really "old timers" in computer industry publishing - and I think was one of first PC Magazine writers in the old days.

But both guys play well together like Dave and Chris.

"Boots on the ground".. back at you. :)
 

Offline jancumps

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #48 on: June 11, 2016, 07:49:54 am »
Don't feel captured. The exit door is wide open. We've stopped caring about your belly button focused behaviour some time ago.

Bye
 

Offline Corporate666

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Re: UK forum members, BREXIT?
« Reply #49 on: June 11, 2016, 08:26:02 am »
I am in favor of a Brexit - I sincerely hope it passes. 

I think there is a lot of bullishit and alarmism on both sides, and frankly it's showing up in this thread as well.

The UK existed long before the EU and it did quite well.  This idea that the country suffered rolling blackouts and was economically stunted in growth is laughable.  The whole world experienced somewhat of a technological and economic renaissance over the past 30 years, and it wasn't because they were part of the EU.  And there is no connection with having to accept open borders to get free trade.  They're called trade deals and the USA has successfully negotiated lots of them that provide free trade and open borders have never been even in contemplation as part of the trade deal. 

As for the immigration issue, I am a UK citizen and I spend a fair amount of time there.  Each time I go back, I am amazed at the transformation.  I feel the pro-EU side of the debate paints it as racism, but I don't know anyone in favor of a Brexit who just hates foreigners.  There are so many in the UK now that it's impossible not to mix and mingle with them, nor do I think anyone believes they are all going to pack up and leave if there's a Brexit.  However, the UK is one of the most densely populated countries in the world (excepting small countries and islands like Monaco, Nauuru and such).  When people talk about needing a younger generation due to low birth rates... for what reason?  Is the UK in danger of running out of people and will have nobody to run public services?  No, what people are talking about when they worry about low birth rates are who is going to pay for the welfare spending as the existing Brits age.  Well, as people live longer and welfare spending rises, the base of the pyramid has to get a LOT bigger to support the Ponzi scheme.  But the problem is if the UK imports sufficient workers to keep it alive... what happens when those people age and retire?  Import more?  And more?  Until there are 20,000 people per square km like in Monaco or Macau?  Eventually it comes crashing down and it's a lot better to head these problems off before they become insurmountable.

And last but not least... if being in the EU is a good thing for Britain and for the EU, then if Britain leaves and it turns out it wasn't a good idea, then there is nothing stopping them re-joining.  People say it won't be that easy - really?  If that is true, it means the EU rules based on spite, bias, vindictiveness and not based on common sense and sensible policy.  And if that's the case, better to GTFO sooner than later.

It's sort of like being in a marriage.  Do you want to be married to someone that you stay married to because of how much they say they would ruin your life if you ever got divorced?   That's no basis for any kind of relationship - social or economic.
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 
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